Original subtitles

This programme contains some scenes of a sexual nature,

some strong language

and some scenes which some viewers may find upsetting.

Cos I haven't met anyone who makes me feel

the way you feel about Claire.

But then again, nor have I ever, I don't think,

quite felt the way I feel about Claire about you.

Joy, I'm struck by something you said a moment ago.

You said, "It's my job to be whoever it is they need me to be".

What you did tonight was wildly inappropriate!

I wonder if it's possible to talk about a time

where you've experienced feeling yourself.

So, then, why this persistent moving of the goalposts?!

Synced & corrected by -robtor- www.addic7ed.com

So, how was it?

It was fine. I don't know.

What don't you know?

Well, I don't know...

...what to say.

Say whatever you like.

Erm...

Well, I was late.

But they hadn't started yet.

Why were you late?

Oh, this and that.

Can you be a little more specific?

I burnt my toast.

How?

I see where you're going with this, by the way.

Somebody turned the toaster up to four,

somebody who isn't me.

And I couldn't find my shoes, find the right shoes.

Well, which was it?

You knew which shoes you were looking for,

and were unable to find them, or in general...?

All right, I... Fine. I accept.

I may have been a little bit... hesitant.

And why?

Was I a little bit hesitant?

You tell me.

I asked a registrar once.

I said, which, you know,

"Do you have a preference when it comes to weddings versus funerals?"

And she said, "Funerals".

And I said, "Oh, that's interesting".

She said, "Weddings can be quite elaborate.

"Quite a lot of voices and opinions in the mix.

"Funerals, on the other hand..."

...she said, "All people want to do, more often than not, anyway...

"..they just want it to matter.

"To mean something."

And, in general, is that how you feel about weddings versus funerals?

I don't know.

Maybe.

I think probably maybe it is. Yeah.

Would you like to give me an example?

You mean an example of why I prefer funerals to weddings,

or you mean an example of a funeral that actually meant something to me?

Whatever you like.

Well, no, you tell me.

I wasn't necessarily saying I did, by the way.

I wasn't necessarily suggesting you did, either.

I was just... relaying something...

...someone... once...

Indeed.

But, OK, so, erm...

I mean, since we're just...

...talking about him...

I mean, I remember...

...at Mum's, at my mum's...

Funeral.

Yeah, and...

Yeah, and I remember he, erm...

Sorry, by, erm...

When you say "he"...

Er, Lawrence's dad.

- Graham? - Yeah.

Cos my own dad had said to me...

..."No-one wants to see a fuss from you today, Joy".

What did he mean by that, do you think?

Well, in his very own inimitable way, he was saying,

"Today's the day to keep a lid on it, kid".

Not an easy promise to adhere to at the best of times,

let alone on the day...

I did OK.

The strangest... I think...

The strangest thing was probably, erm...

...the number, the number of people, and people I'd never met,

telling me how much they loved my mum.

I mean, telling me how wonderful they thought she was.

Yeah, people she worked with, people she used to go dancing with.

Why strange?

But then, erm, but then, anyway, erm...

So then, once the, erm, once the...

...service was done, I think...

...I think that's when it really...

And he said to me...

He said, "You do know, don't you,

"that it's all right not to feel yourself on a day like today?"

How nice of him.

Oh, he was amazing.

- Lawrence's father? - Yeah, he was...

He was an extremely generous individual.

- More so than YOUR father? - Oh!

More so than almost anyone.

Alan, I suppose, actually.

Cos, I mean, he was the only other person, when Mum died.

Because, at the time, erm,

not a lot of my friends...

I mean, nobody knew what to say to me.

In what sense?

Well, Angela, none of them had a dead parent.

So, apart from Graham, and apart from your husband...

Oh, sorry, no, at the time, at the time, me and Alan, we weren't...

You weren't? No. But you were together?

- Yeah. - Boyfriend and girlfriend?

Yup, yup.

Erm, we actually...

...how we met, actually is, erm...

...quite, er...

I was on antibiotics cos I'd been bitten by the neighbour's cat.

I hated that fucking cat. Anyway, so I wasn't drinking.

And, as far as I could tell,

Alan was the only other sober person at this party full of

otherwise horrendously over-the-top undergraduates.

And he said, rather sweetly, he said...

..."I've got an essay due in tomorrow".

And I thought, "Oh!"

I mean...

And, sorry, just to check that I've, erm...

This was during...

Oh, yeah, we met, at the start of our second year.

And your mother...?

She died towards the end of our third year.

I see.

So the two of you, in fact, had been together for some time.

Yeah, but we, er, we...

We actually didn't get together until...

Because at that time, at that... Well, at this particular point

in time, I was...

I was still, er, actually,

still seeing, erm, Lawrence.

Oh.

Yeah, trying to make a go of things long distance.

- And did you? - Make a go of things long distance?

- Mm-hm. - Not massively, no.

I did tell him the truth.

I said, "Lawrence, I'm so sorry..."

"..but I think I've met someone else.

"And we haven't done anything.

"I mean, we haven't kissed or anything, but we have

"been spending a fair bit of time together...

"..and the more I've found myself drawn to him..."

"..the less I find myself missing you".

And he, you know, he said, he said...

God!

He said, "What has he got that I don't?"

And you said?

Oh, I don't know, something along the lines of, erm...

...he seems so in control of things.

What did you mean by that?

Well, all his VHSs were alphabetised!

And I think he knew he wanted to be a teacher. I think.

I think he knew that about himself.

And he was calm.

And he was organised.

What about Lawrence? What did his VHS collection look like?

Oh, it... It certainly was NOT alphabetised.

And you said earlier, we were talking about Lawrence's father,

about Graham, and you described him as an extremely generous individual.

More so than almost anyone else.

And then you said, "Except Alan".

That's because, I mean, erm...

In terms of...

I asked him not to come to Mum's funeral.

- OK. - Yeah, I just...

- And why...? - I didn't...

Please.

I didn't want him to see me like that. Like what?

Not myself.

And he hadn't met any of my family.

When you say, "Not yourself"...

I know it isn't logical. It's just how I felt at the time.

And so...

So, OK, you ask him not to attend, you give him your reasons,

and he agrees? Or...?

No, he... Yeah, he does. He...

Sorry, this is when? Where are we now?

Oh, I think I probably called him within about...

...24 hours of Mum dying.

OK.

Yeah, and then, erm, I think we spoke maybe about a day or so later.

And again, on the phone, or...?

No, this was... I mean, yeah, this was all over the...

I see, so a day or so later.

Yeah, and he, erm...

He asks about the funeral, and...

...he says if there's anything he can do to help, or...

And you said...?

I said, "Alan, the truth is, we're planning on keeping things

"quite small, mostly family".

Which was or wasn't true?

More wasn't than was.

And what was his reaction?

He was quiet for a bit.

Think I thought I'd pissed him off.

Upset him.

Mm. Thought he didn't want to speak to me.

And so...

And th...

So, OK, so then what happened? What changed?

He, erm...

He said he'd, erm...

...he had been a little bit upset that I didn't want him to be there,

that I'd asked him not to come.

But not because...

Not because he minded per se not being there, but...

...the thing that had been upsetting him, or been upsetting FOR him,

was, erm...

...the thought, he said...

...of me being on my own, he said.

Alone.

Having to go through all of that on my own.

_

And I knew how much he hated people writing in books.

- Really? - Oh! He couldn't stand it.

So it meant a lot.

What a law-breaker.

Problem was...

...I...

JOY CLEARS THROAT ..I, erm...

...erm...

You've been quiet for quite a long time now.

I've been listening.

And what's more...

Well, I suppose I've been thinking.

What have you been thinking about?

Well...

Good question.

About...

...you.

Hmm. Good to know.

And about...

...how.

Because what's interesting to me, Joy,

you mentioned earlier the burnt toast, the running late.

And when I pressed you ever-so-slightly, you said,

"OK, fine, I was, I'll admit it, I was feeling somewhat hesitant".

And so then I'm thinking to myself, "Well, all right,

"what is there to be hesitant about?"

And so then I'm thinking, but I don't say it,

I'm thinking, "Well, presumably it's Lawrence.

"It's his wife. It's the...

"..the prospect of the three of you potentially being in the same room

"at the same time, maybe".

And then, of course, when you describe this encounter

with Graham, with Lawrence's father...

Well, then, I'm thinking to myself, "Well, OK, well, now I see".

He clearly meant a great deal to you.

Not to mention the link with your mother.

And then, also there's this, erm...

...pattern of persistently...

...overlapping partners.

And what I mean by that is, when I asked you, erm...

...why you didn't want Alan to attend the funeral of your mother,

you said something along the lines of...

I didn't want him to see me like that.

That's right.

Not yourself.

As though only certain parts of our personality, our psyche,

are suitable for public consumption.

And then, there's the story of your father...

...asking you not to make a fuss.

"Nobody wants to see you make a fuss today, Joy."

And I'm thinking, "Well, what did he really mean by that, I wonder?"

Or rather, "What did a statement like that really mean to you?"

I think my honest feeling is...

...when he asked you not to make a fuss...

...really, he was asking you to stop feeling.

To feel nothing.

When we feel nothing, Joy...

...when we cease to feel anything at all...

...we lose track of what causes us pain.

And why.

Not to mention what excites us, and delights us.

So then, I'm thinking to myself, "Well, of course you had sex.

"Of course you did, with Lawrence".

Because I suspect you wanted...

...you needed to feel something.

I told him, by the way.

Alan.

The truth.

And?

Water?

Mm.

Joy, I wanted to ask you about something we talked about last week.

We were discussing Josh, Joshua and Emily Riley,

and you said...

"They said it was his last call, he made," you said.

The last call he made?

Yeah?

And by "they," just to double check...

The police.

Oh, so...

OK, so it was the police, who informed you.

Yeah. They... They said...

They explained...

I mean, I can't remember the exact...

It's all right

Erm...

From the, the evidence that had been, erm...

Mm-hm.

- ...recovered... - Mm-hm.

...the last call the deceased made...

Was to you?

And this was at your house?

You mean the call, or the...?

No, sorry, the... When the police...

Yeah, I was at home.

At the house.

They knocked on the...

Said, would I mind, and I said no.

"Would either of you like a cup of tea, or a coffee?"

And, sorry, just to make sure, erm...

...how much at this point in time were you or were you not aware of?

Aware of what?

Well, that something was wrong.

Or might be.

You mean, did I know he was dead?

Shocking, then.

It must have come as quite a shock to you.

And so...

I'm sorry, I'm slightly struggling to, erm...

Please, please.

Well, I mean, this was months ago.

It was, that's true.

Best part of a year. I mean...

Would you rather we talked about something else instead?

Angela, I can see your notes, I can see them sitting right there,

so I'm not quite sure why I'm being asked to repeat myself.

- You're frustrated. - No. I'm...

Feels a little bit like I'm being attacked.

Well, I'm sorry, Joy.

I'm sorry if that's how you feel.

I'm sorry if that's how these questions are making you feel.

Are you OK?

That's not my intention.

And you're absolutely right, you are.

Because, as you say, some of this is territory we've already explored.

The knock at the door. The inquest.

But actually, Joy, this call,

this final, unanswered call...

...I'm not sure we ever did, as it happens...

...get round to discussing it.

And you're right, I do have my notes from last week,

and also from the end of last year as well, because, Joy...

So you mean, what you're saying is, you think I didn't tell you?

- No. - You think I deliberately...

No, no...

You think I deliberately, neglected, or avoided...

No, not at all, far from it, in fact.

Truth be told, I was worried that I might have missed it,

or misunderstood, or...

You see, all I'm after here, Joy, is clarity.

Because I don't want you repeating yourself either.

Excuse me?

I'm sorry if these questions have been upsetting for you.

Angela, they're not upsetting me, they're annoying me.

There's a difference.

I'm sorry.

What for?

Getting pissed off.

Not a problem.

I'm not someone who withholds things.

Agreed.

So... I don't know.

I mean, maybe I couldn't.

- You know? - Couldn't what?

I mean as opposed to not...

...telling you. Not wanting to tell you.

I mean, it's embarrassing.

Isn't it?

It's shameful.

I mean, it's my job, for Christ's sake!

It's not as if I don't...

...think about it all th...

It's impossible not to, surely.

You mean if you'd taken the call?

You mean you think about what you might have been able to do

had you accepted Joshua's call?

Or maybe just listened.

I mean just listened.

You know?

Done my job.

It's an awful feeling, isn't it?

The feeling of...

"If only I'd said this, or done that".

You said it yourself, in fact, last week, it's...

It's the responsibility.

Well, no, that, that, that, I...

That I don't agree with.

OK.

No, I like responsibility.

Responsibility's good.

I think we should be held accountable.

That's the job.

They OUGHT to get under our skin.

So that isn't what this is.

I don't think.

Mm. This is different.

This is me not knowing what to do.

Because...

...or should've done.

Or really even why.

I mean, how alone he must have felt...

...really and truly...

...to do that.

For him to feel... I mean, that is...

That it was a viable alternative.

It doesn't make sense. I can't...

...understand it, you know?

I mean, what an idiot!

What an honest to God...

...is honestly sometimes how I feel about it.

How it feels, you know?

I mean, stop trying to make yourself the centre of your own misfortune.

You have an amazing wife. She loves you.

So...

I don't know...

...what any of it, or why any of it.

You've gone quiet again.

So have you.

What are you thinking about?

What are you thinking about?

OK. Well...

...I'm thinking about...

...my responsibility towards you.

Thinking about when it feels appropriate to push back

on certain things, and when it doesn't.

How, perhaps, I'm a little afraid to tell you the truth,

of really taking you to task on one or two things you said.

Because I can see that you're upset, and you're vulnerable.

But I can also see that you're stuck.

And then, I suppose, I'm thinking also about certain words

and phrases which seem to keep cropping up...

...popping up again and again. Erm, control.

Organised. Responsibility. Er...

Meaning. Feeling. Fuss.

And, of course, I would be lying if I said that I...

...I wasn't thinking about how desperately, desperately unfair,

and incomprehensible, and unbearable, death is.

How it changes everything, and yet all the while,

changing absolutely nothing whatsoever at all.

How... really truly shit that is.

How really truly shit grief can make us feel, Joy.

And then, if I think back to the start of our conversation,

how you coped with the unintelligibility of the world,

after the death of your mother, how you took back some level of control

by, in a way by making or creating problems for yourself elsewhere.

And then, if I take a moment...

Wait a minute, wait a minute, I don't understand.

OK.

You're not being clear.

OK. Well...

Well, I suppose it's interesting to me, Joy,

that when you and Alan first met, and you were still in

a relationship with Lawrence, you didn't behave disruptively.

You behaved as it were, erm, perfectly honourably.

And then, in the wake of your mother's death,

you decided, for whatever reason, to keep your current partner at bay.

Away. A man you yourself, erm...

So what?

I don't...

I mean, so fucking what?

I did a stupid thing.

I mean...

Jesus, I mean, I was upset.

I was a child!

I wasn't suggesting it was stupid, Joy.

Quite the opposite, in fact.

Because, of course, a problem over here is a good thing.

Because having a problem over here means not thinking,

not having to think about, or deal with this great big,

other sink-hole of a problem over here.

It means control, responsibility,

accountability, autonomy.

But, in order to have that, it means having to wreak havoc elsewhere.

Do you see? All the way, way, way, way, way over here...

...exploiting a catastrophe in order to block internal change.

And when I think about your current situation, thinking about

things as they currently stand, thinking back to where

it all started, inviting a relative stranger into your consulting room.

Do you see? Designing and implementing an elaborate,

an arrangement, which means, or allows, this kind of

antithetical behaviour to continue and to escalate.

And when I say... To be absolutely clear,

what I am not talking about here is...

...but what I am talking about is death.

Is grief.

Is feeling again, something, anything.

Sex as a means of controlling, or neutralising.

No, but... An antithesis to a deep and profound sense of loss.

Wait, because...

You said it yourself only a moment ago.

Stop trying to place yourself at the centre of your own misfortune.

Wow. Er...

OK.

Jesus!

And when I think about your relationship

as it currently stands, OK...

...here's what I understand to be the case.

Joy?

There was a very real loss of desire,

which you tackled, both of you, head on,

with a series of sanctioned infidelities.

Which led, in fact, albeit counter-intuitively, but

nonetheless extremely successfully, to a renewed sense of desire.

Excitement. Intimacy.

Does that seem like a fair assessment of things?

Joy?

So, my question to you, Joy, is why keep going?

Do you see?

Why not stop?

Yes, I'm asking you.

Because it's fun? Well, OK.

So why keep going? Well, the answer is, because it's working.

And you're enjoying yourselves, both of you.

- Yeah. - And why not? Good for you.

But then...

...so why Lawrence?

Joy?

Why take that risk?

With things at home never better.

Why persist in flirting with disaster?

And why the situation with your eldest daughter?

Why not tell her the truth? Set the record straight.

And then why the standing up in public, Joy,

in front of friends and colleagues?

Do you see?

Leapfrogging from this crisis to that crisis.

It's all too much.

You...

...are not responsible for that man.

For what it was he did to himself.

Joy...

...you simply are not.

Oh, fuck.

- It's all right, it's OK. - No, I'm sorry.

Don't be.

I just... I just...

I feel so, so sorry for him.

Not to mention Emily. I mean...

Well...

...feeling is good.

And...

...feeling even more...

...is even better.

These aren't feelings to run away from.

OK?

Fuck, I'm sorry.

Joy, I want you to stop apologising.

Sorry, I just...

I don't really think I have anything else to say.

I mean, fuck, no, I mean, I'm not sorry at all.

Maybe we can just sit here.

For a little bit.

Maybe...

And then...

Yeah.

Maybe then...

Before we finish...

...can I ask you what you're thinking about?

Alan. Alan, I think.

What I should do now.

Whether to do anything, or...

...whether it's too late.

See you next week?

Hi.

Hi.