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These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated: 1 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:05,759 This programme contains some scenes of a sexual nature, 2 00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:07,799 some strong language 3 00:00:07,800 --> 00:00:10,839 and some scenes which some viewers may find upsetting. 4 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:12,599 Cos I haven't met anyone who makes me feel 5 00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:14,559 the way you feel about Claire. 6 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:16,600 But then again, nor have I ever, I don't think, 7 00:00:16,601 --> 00:00:19,360 quite felt the way I feel about Claire about you. 8 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:28,759 Joy, I'm struck by something you said a moment ago. 9 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:33,640 You said, "It's my job to be whoever it is they need me to be". 10 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:42,360 What you did tonight was wildly inappropriate! 11 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:46,839 I wonder if it's possible to talk about a time 12 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:49,639 where you've experienced feeling yourself. 13 00:00:49,640 --> 00:00:53,580 So, then, why this persistent moving of the goalposts?! 14 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:35,952 Synced & corrected by -robtor- www.addic7ed.com 15 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:03,760 So, how was it? 16 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:10,980 It was fine. I don't know. 17 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:15,620 What don't you know? 18 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:20,679 Well, I don't know... 19 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:28,439 ...what to say. 20 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:30,120 Say whatever you like. 21 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:34,000 Erm... 22 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:36,520 Well, I was late. 23 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:40,300 But they hadn't started yet. 24 00:04:41,280 --> 00:04:42,450 Why were you late? 25 00:04:43,403 --> 00:04:44,760 Oh, this and that. 26 00:04:47,280 --> 00:04:49,820 Can you be a little more specific? 27 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:51,919 I burnt my toast. 28 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:53,280 How? 29 00:04:56,120 --> 00:04:58,740 I see where you're going with this, by the way. 30 00:04:59,240 --> 00:05:01,319 Somebody turned the toaster up to four, 31 00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:03,239 somebody who isn't me. 32 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:05,919 And I couldn't find my shoes, find the right shoes. 33 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:07,360 Well, which was it? 34 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:10,599 You knew which shoes you were looking for, 35 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:13,879 and were unable to find them, or in general...? 36 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:16,239 All right, I... Fine. I accept. 37 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:20,800 I may have been a little bit... hesitant. 38 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:23,839 And why? 39 00:05:23,840 --> 00:05:26,239 Was I a little bit hesitant? 40 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:27,680 You tell me. 41 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:34,639 I asked a registrar once. 42 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:36,146 I said, which, you know, 43 00:05:36,147 --> 00:05:38,820 "Do you have a preference when it comes to weddings versus funerals?" 44 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:41,140 And she said, "Funerals". 45 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:44,660 And I said, "Oh, that's interesting". 46 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:48,039 She said, "Weddings can be quite elaborate. 47 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:51,119 "Quite a lot of voices and opinions in the mix. 48 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:53,540 "Funerals, on the other hand..." 49 00:05:54,927 --> 00:05:59,960 ...she said, "All people want to do, more often than not, anyway... 50 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:06,880 "..they just want it to matter. 51 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:10,400 "To mean something." 52 00:06:13,840 --> 00:06:17,559 And, in general, is that how you feel about weddings versus funerals? 53 00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:19,360 I don't know. 54 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:22,160 Maybe. 55 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:25,980 I think probably maybe it is. Yeah. 56 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:28,860 Would you like to give me an example? 57 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:34,740 You mean an example of why I prefer funerals to weddings, 58 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:38,300 or you mean an example of a funeral that actually meant something to me? 59 00:06:38,840 --> 00:06:40,220 Whatever you like. 60 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:42,420 Well, no, you tell me. 61 00:06:45,280 --> 00:06:47,980 I wasn't necessarily saying I did, by the way. 62 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:51,879 I wasn't necessarily suggesting you did, either. 63 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:54,719 I was just... relaying something... 64 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:57,600 ...someone... once... 65 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:01,240 Indeed. 66 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:06,880 But, OK, so, erm... 67 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:10,580 I mean, since we're just... 68 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:12,880 ...talking about him... 69 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:16,440 I mean, I remember... 70 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:20,740 ...at Mum's, at my mum's... 71 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:26,320 Funeral. 72 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:29,120 Yeah, and... 73 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:35,239 Yeah, and I remember he, erm... 74 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:36,959 Sorry, by, erm... 75 00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:38,519 When you say "he"... 76 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:40,399 Er, Lawrence's dad. 77 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:42,160 - Graham? - Yeah. 78 00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:49,440 Cos my own dad had said to me... 79 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:54,480 ..."No-one wants to see a fuss from you today, Joy". 80 00:07:56,880 --> 00:07:58,879 What did he mean by that, do you think? 81 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:04,599 Well, in his very own inimitable way, he was saying, 82 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:07,120 "Today's the day to keep a lid on it, kid". 83 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:14,199 Not an easy promise to adhere to at the best of times, 84 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:15,720 let alone on the day... 85 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:34,520 I did OK. 86 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:41,400 The strangest... I think... 87 00:08:43,282 --> 00:08:45,560 The strangest thing was probably, erm... 88 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:52,088 ...the number, the number of people, and people I'd never met, 89 00:08:52,089 --> 00:08:54,740 telling me how much they loved my mum. 90 00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:58,180 I mean, telling me how wonderful they thought she was. 91 00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:03,599 Yeah, people she worked with, people she used to go dancing with. 92 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:05,080 Why strange? 93 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:13,320 But then, erm, but then, anyway, erm... 94 00:09:15,560 --> 00:09:18,920 So then, once the, erm, once the... 95 00:09:20,680 --> 00:09:25,120 ...service was done, I think... 96 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:29,720 ...I think that's when it really... 97 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:40,680 And he said to me... 98 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:45,959 He said, "You do know, don't you, 99 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:49,040 "that it's all right not to feel yourself on a day like today?" 100 00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:56,799 How nice of him. 101 00:09:56,800 --> 00:09:57,840 Oh, he was amazing. 102 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:01,580 - Lawrence's father? - Yeah, he was... 103 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:06,000 He was an extremely generous individual. 104 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:10,700 - More so than YOUR father? - Oh! 105 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:13,400 More so than almost anyone. 106 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:18,040 Alan, I suppose, actually. 107 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:23,680 Cos, I mean, he was the only other person, when Mum died. 108 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:27,839 Because, at the time, erm, 109 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:31,719 not a lot of my friends... 110 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:33,320 I mean, nobody knew what to say to me. 111 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:36,280 In what sense? 112 00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:42,420 Well, Angela, none of them had a dead parent. 113 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:50,519 So, apart from Graham, and apart from your husband... 114 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:53,799 Oh, sorry, no, at the time, at the time, me and Alan, we weren't... 115 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:55,599 You weren't? No. But you were together? 116 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:57,519 - Yeah. - Boyfriend and girlfriend? 117 00:10:57,520 --> 00:10:59,919 Yup, yup. 118 00:10:59,920 --> 00:11:02,580 Erm, we actually... 119 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:07,620 ...how we met, actually is, erm... 120 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:11,240 ...quite, er... 121 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:21,359 I was on antibiotics cos I'd been bitten by the neighbour's cat. 122 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:24,639 I hated that fucking cat. Anyway, so I wasn't drinking. 123 00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:26,519 And, as far as I could tell, 124 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:30,879 Alan was the only other sober person at this party full of 125 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:35,280 otherwise horrendously over-the-top undergraduates. 126 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:47,020 And he said, rather sweetly, he said... 127 00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:52,159 ..."I've got an essay due in tomorrow". 128 00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:53,920 And I thought, "Oh!" 129 00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:57,080 I mean... 130 00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:03,879 And, sorry, just to check that I've, erm... 131 00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:06,039 This was during... 132 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:08,799 Oh, yeah, we met, at the start of our second year. 133 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:10,360 And your mother...? 134 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:14,719 She died towards the end of our third year. 135 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:16,519 I see. 136 00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:20,780 So the two of you, in fact, had been together for some time. 137 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:24,680 Yeah, but we, er, we... 138 00:12:25,680 --> 00:12:28,720 We actually didn't get together until... 139 00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:33,239 Because at that time, at that... Well, at this particular point 140 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:35,620 in time, I was... 141 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:39,439 I was still, er, actually, 142 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:41,600 still seeing, erm, Lawrence. 143 00:12:42,058 --> 00:12:43,248 Oh. 144 00:12:43,273 --> 00:12:46,359 Yeah, trying to make a go of things long distance. 145 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:49,001 - And did you? - Make a go of things long distance? 146 00:12:49,002 --> 00:12:51,640 - Mm-hm. - Not massively, no. 147 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:55,360 I did tell him the truth. 148 00:12:57,160 --> 00:13:01,845 I said, "Lawrence, I'm so sorry..." 149 00:13:02,620 --> 00:13:04,380 "..but I think I've met someone else. 150 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:07,679 "And we haven't done anything. 151 00:13:07,680 --> 00:13:11,679 "I mean, we haven't kissed or anything, but we have 152 00:13:11,680 --> 00:13:14,000 "been spending a fair bit of time together... 153 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:23,761 "..and the more I've found myself drawn to him..." 154 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:30,820 "..the less I find myself missing you". 155 00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:38,239 And he, you know, he said, he said... 156 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:39,600 God! 157 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:44,599 He said, "What has he got that I don't?" 158 00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:45,959 And you said? 159 00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:49,220 Oh, I don't know, something along the lines of, erm... 160 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:52,380 ...he seems so in control of things. 161 00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:54,720 What did you mean by that? 162 00:13:56,240 --> 00:13:58,840 Well, all his VHSs were alphabetised! 163 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:09,319 And I think he knew he wanted to be a teacher. I think. 164 00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:11,760 I think he knew that about himself. 165 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:14,640 And he was calm. 166 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:19,159 And he was organised. 167 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:23,479 What about Lawrence? What did his VHS collection look like? 168 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:26,999 Oh, it... It certainly was NOT alphabetised. 169 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:34,479 And you said earlier, we were talking about Lawrence's father, 170 00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:41,000 about Graham, and you described him as an extremely generous individual. 171 00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:44,479 More so than almost anyone else. 172 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:47,340 And then you said, "Except Alan". 173 00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:51,919 That's because, I mean, erm... 174 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:53,480 In terms of... 175 00:14:55,960 --> 00:14:59,780 I asked him not to come to Mum's funeral. 176 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:05,015 - OK. - Yeah, I just... 177 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:06,559 - And why...? - I didn't... 178 00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:07,960 Please. 179 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:14,600 I didn't want him to see me like that. Like what? 180 00:15:16,046 --> 00:15:17,260 Not myself. 181 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:21,159 And he hadn't met any of my family. 182 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:22,999 When you say, "Not yourself"... 183 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:27,160 I know it isn't logical. It's just how I felt at the time. 184 00:15:29,413 --> 00:15:30,653 And so... 185 00:15:30,678 --> 00:15:36,095 So, OK, you ask him not to attend, you give him your reasons, 186 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:38,079 and he agrees? Or...? 187 00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:40,380 No, he... Yeah, he does. He... 188 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:45,860 Sorry, this is when? Where are we now? 189 00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:49,700 Oh, I think I probably called him within about... 190 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:52,119 ...24 hours of Mum dying. 191 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:53,540 OK. 192 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:59,440 Yeah, and then, erm, I think we spoke maybe about a day or so later. 193 00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:03,599 And again, on the phone, or...? 194 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:06,240 No, this was... I mean, yeah, this was all over the... 195 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:11,239 I see, so a day or so later. 196 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:13,060 Yeah, and he, erm... 197 00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:17,679 He asks about the funeral, and... 198 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:20,360 ...he says if there's anything he can do to help, or... 199 00:16:22,133 --> 00:16:23,493 And you said...? 200 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:31,879 I said, "Alan, the truth is, we're planning on keeping things 201 00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:34,840 "quite small, mostly family". 202 00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:38,040 Which was or wasn't true? 203 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:43,760 More wasn't than was. 204 00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:48,040 And what was his reaction? 205 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:56,519 He was quiet for a bit. 206 00:16:56,520 --> 00:16:59,159 Think I thought I'd pissed him off. 207 00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:00,200 Upset him. 208 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:07,680 Mm. Thought he didn't want to speak to me. 209 00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:09,840 And so... 210 00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:13,840 And th... 211 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:20,760 So, OK, so then what happened? What changed? 212 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:54,880 He, erm... 213 00:17:59,920 --> 00:18:02,940 He said he'd, erm... 214 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:06,519 ...he had been a little bit upset that I didn't want him to be there, 215 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:08,300 that I'd asked him not to come. 216 00:18:09,199 --> 00:18:10,599 But not because... 217 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:13,480 Not because he minded per se not being there, but... 218 00:18:20,360 --> 00:18:23,519 ...the thing that had been upsetting him, or been upsetting FOR him, 219 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:25,060 was, erm... 220 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:30,420 ...the thought, he said... 221 00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:34,480 ...of me being on my own, he said. 222 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:39,680 Alone. 223 00:18:42,064 --> 00:18:43,640 Having to go through all of that on my own. 224 00:18:50,784 --> 00:18:52,784 _ 225 00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:55,640 And I knew how much he hated people writing in books. 226 00:18:57,080 --> 00:18:59,760 - Really? - Oh! He couldn't stand it. 227 00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:04,040 So it meant a lot. 228 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:08,960 What a law-breaker. 229 00:19:23,120 --> 00:19:25,000 Problem was... 230 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:31,180 ...I... 231 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:34,280 JOY CLEARS THROAT ..I, erm... 232 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:51,840 ...erm... 233 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:42,320 You've been quiet for quite a long time now. 234 00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:50,240 I've been listening. 235 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:56,680 And what's more... 236 00:20:58,360 --> 00:21:02,440 Well, I suppose I've been thinking. 237 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:08,919 What have you been thinking about? 238 00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:09,960 Well... 239 00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:12,480 Good question. 240 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:16,160 About... 241 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:18,788 ...you. 242 00:21:18,789 --> 00:21:21,140 Hmm. Good to know. 243 00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:24,360 And about... 244 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:27,800 ...how. 245 00:21:29,186 --> 00:21:31,220 Because what's interesting to me, Joy, 246 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:35,480 you mentioned earlier the burnt toast, the running late. 247 00:21:36,753 --> 00:21:39,907 And when I pressed you ever-so-slightly, you said, 248 00:21:39,932 --> 00:21:46,100 "OK, fine, I was, I'll admit it, I was feeling somewhat hesitant". 249 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:52,039 And so then I'm thinking to myself, "Well, all right, 250 00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:54,920 "what is there to be hesitant about?" 251 00:21:57,640 --> 00:21:59,634 And so then I'm thinking, but I don't say it, 252 00:21:59,635 --> 00:22:03,359 I'm thinking, "Well, presumably it's Lawrence. 253 00:22:03,360 --> 00:22:04,760 "It's his wife. It's the... 254 00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:09,239 "..the prospect of the three of you potentially being in the same room 255 00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:11,620 "at the same time, maybe". 256 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:18,835 And then, of course, when you describe this encounter 257 00:22:18,836 --> 00:22:23,100 with Graham, with Lawrence's father... 258 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:29,160 Well, then, I'm thinking to myself, "Well, OK, well, now I see". 259 00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:33,680 He clearly meant a great deal to you. 260 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:38,180 Not to mention the link with your mother. 261 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:42,860 And then, also there's this, erm... 262 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:48,580 ...pattern of persistently... 263 00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:51,280 ...overlapping partners. 264 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:59,840 And what I mean by that is, when I asked you, erm... 265 00:23:01,820 --> 00:23:04,600 ...why you didn't want Alan to attend the funeral of your mother, 266 00:23:04,625 --> 00:23:07,679 you said something along the lines of... 267 00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:10,079 I didn't want him to see me like that. 268 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:11,719 That's right. 269 00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:13,639 Not yourself. 270 00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:19,208 As though only certain parts of our personality, our psyche, 271 00:23:19,209 --> 00:23:23,460 are suitable for public consumption. 272 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:29,300 And then, there's the story of your father... 273 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:33,120 ...asking you not to make a fuss. 274 00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:37,860 "Nobody wants to see you make a fuss today, Joy." 275 00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:44,640 And I'm thinking, "Well, what did he really mean by that, I wonder?" 276 00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:54,740 Or rather, "What did a statement like that really mean to you?" 277 00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:02,640 I think my honest feeling is... 278 00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:07,420 ...when he asked you not to make a fuss... 279 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:13,620 ...really, he was asking you to stop feeling. 280 00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:17,400 To feel nothing. 281 00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:26,400 When we feel nothing, Joy... 282 00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:31,620 ...when we cease to feel anything at all... 283 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:38,480 ...we lose track of what causes us pain. 284 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:42,080 And why. 285 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:48,880 Not to mention what excites us, and delights us. 286 00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:58,759 So then, I'm thinking to myself, "Well, of course you had sex. 287 00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:01,240 "Of course you did, with Lawrence". 288 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:06,660 Because I suspect you wanted... 289 00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:12,960 ...you needed to feel something. 290 00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:28,520 I told him, by the way. 291 00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:33,960 Alan. 292 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:37,520 The truth. 293 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:40,320 And? 294 00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:15,919 Water? 295 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:17,640 Mm. 296 00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:53,180 Joy, I wanted to ask you about something we talked about last week. 297 00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:57,660 We were discussing Josh, Joshua and Emily Riley, 298 00:27:57,661 --> 00:28:00,060 and you said... 299 00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:07,840 "They said it was his last call, he made," you said. 300 00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:10,800 The last call he made? 301 00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:13,840 Yeah? 302 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:17,639 And by "they," just to double check... 303 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:19,359 The police. 304 00:28:19,360 --> 00:28:20,759 Oh, so... 305 00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:24,319 OK, so it was the police, who informed you. 306 00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:27,199 Yeah. They... They said... 307 00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:28,439 They explained... 308 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:30,359 I mean, I can't remember the exact... 309 00:28:30,360 --> 00:28:31,480 It's all right 310 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:33,920 Erm... 311 00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:40,239 From the, the evidence that had been, erm... 312 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:41,620 Mm-hm. 313 00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:45,079 - ...recovered... - Mm-hm. 314 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:47,660 ...the last call the deceased made... 315 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:53,560 Was to you? 316 00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:01,860 And this was at your house? 317 00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:05,079 You mean the call, or the...? 318 00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:08,220 No, sorry, the... When the police... 319 00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:13,279 Yeah, I was at home. 320 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:14,880 At the house. 321 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:20,280 They knocked on the... 322 00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:24,914 Said, would I mind, and I said no. 323 00:29:24,915 --> 00:29:28,700 "Would either of you like a cup of tea, or a coffee?" 324 00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:33,700 And, sorry, just to make sure, erm... 325 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:43,020 ...how much at this point in time were you or were you not aware of? 326 00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:46,559 Aware of what? 327 00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:50,380 Well, that something was wrong. 328 00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:53,240 Or might be. 329 00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:58,840 You mean, did I know he was dead? 330 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:17,080 Shocking, then. 331 00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:22,800 It must have come as quite a shock to you. 332 00:30:28,553 --> 00:30:29,583 And so... 333 00:30:29,774 --> 00:30:32,839 I'm sorry, I'm slightly struggling to, erm... 334 00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:34,580 Please, please. 335 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:37,999 Well, I mean, this was months ago. 336 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:39,440 It was, that's true. 337 00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:42,440 Best part of a year. I mean... 338 00:30:47,313 --> 00:30:50,833 Would you rather we talked about something else instead? 339 00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:55,359 Angela, I can see your notes, I can see them sitting right there, 340 00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:58,280 so I'm not quite sure why I'm being asked to repeat myself. 341 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:02,360 - You're frustrated. - No. I'm... 342 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:08,000 Feels a little bit like I'm being attacked. 343 00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:11,240 Well, I'm sorry, Joy. 344 00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:14,199 I'm sorry if that's how you feel. 345 00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:17,560 I'm sorry if that's how these questions are making you feel. 346 00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:28,000 Are you OK? 347 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:31,160 That's not my intention. 348 00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:35,559 And you're absolutely right, you are. 349 00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:40,220 Because, as you say, some of this is territory we've already explored. 350 00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:44,220 The knock at the door. The inquest. 351 00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:49,199 But actually, Joy, this call, 352 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:53,400 this final, unanswered call... 353 00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:59,500 ...I'm not sure we ever did, as it happens... 354 00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:01,800 ...get round to discussing it. 355 00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:06,599 And you're right, I do have my notes from last week, 356 00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:09,119 and also from the end of last year as well, because, Joy... 357 00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:12,839 So you mean, what you're saying is, you think I didn't tell you? 358 00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:15,359 - No. - You think I deliberately... 359 00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:16,370 No, no... 360 00:32:16,395 --> 00:32:19,399 You think I deliberately, neglected, or avoided... 361 00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:22,359 No, not at all, far from it, in fact. 362 00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:26,199 Truth be told, I was worried that I might have missed it, 363 00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:29,500 or misunderstood, or... 364 00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:35,280 You see, all I'm after here, Joy, is clarity. 365 00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:41,800 Because I don't want you repeating yourself either. 366 00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:46,240 Excuse me? 367 00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:53,159 I'm sorry if these questions have been upsetting for you. 368 00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:56,999 Angela, they're not upsetting me, they're annoying me. 369 00:32:57,000 --> 00:32:58,480 There's a difference. 370 00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:12,000 I'm sorry. 371 00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:16,080 What for? 372 00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:19,520 Getting pissed off. 373 00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:22,520 Not a problem. 374 00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:28,280 I'm not someone who withholds things. 375 00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:31,319 Agreed. 376 00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:33,720 So... I don't know. 377 00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:41,440 I mean, maybe I couldn't. 378 00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:46,320 - You know? - Couldn't what? 379 00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:50,300 I mean as opposed to not... 380 00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:53,880 ...telling you. Not wanting to tell you. 381 00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:00,000 I mean, it's embarrassing. 382 00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:04,360 Isn't it? 383 00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:07,520 It's shameful. 384 00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:13,040 I mean, it's my job, for Christ's sake! 385 00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:19,080 It's not as if I don't... 386 00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:23,200 ...think about it all th... 387 00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:31,120 It's impossible not to, surely. 388 00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:35,480 You mean if you'd taken the call? 389 00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:42,665 You mean you think about what you might have been able to do 390 00:34:42,666 --> 00:34:45,120 had you accepted Joshua's call? 391 00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:48,440 Or maybe just listened. 392 00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:53,680 I mean just listened. 393 00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:57,880 You know? 394 00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:00,840 Done my job. 395 00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:08,600 It's an awful feeling, isn't it? 396 00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:13,999 The feeling of... 397 00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:15,880 "If only I'd said this, or done that". 398 00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:20,978 You said it yourself, in fact, last week, it's... 399 00:35:21,003 --> 00:35:24,160 It's the responsibility. 400 00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:28,120 Well, no, that, that, that, I... 401 00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:32,079 That I don't agree with. 402 00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:33,559 OK. 403 00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:35,000 No, I like responsibility. 404 00:35:36,266 --> 00:35:37,786 Responsibility's good. 405 00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:42,720 I think we should be held accountable. 406 00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:45,960 That's the job. 407 00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:50,040 They OUGHT to get under our skin. 408 00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:55,680 So that isn't what this is. 409 00:35:57,160 --> 00:35:58,640 I don't think. 410 00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:06,040 Mm. This is different. 411 00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:12,799 This is me not knowing what to do. 412 00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:13,840 Because... 413 00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:16,700 ...or should've done. 414 00:36:18,580 --> 00:36:20,740 Or really even why. 415 00:36:23,720 --> 00:36:25,880 I mean, how alone he must have felt... 416 00:36:28,240 --> 00:36:30,820 ...really and truly... 417 00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:33,080 ...to do that. 418 00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:37,799 For him to feel... I mean, that is... 419 00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:40,799 That it was a viable alternative. 420 00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:43,060 It doesn't make sense. I can't... 421 00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:46,280 ...understand it, you know? 422 00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:49,800 I mean, what an idiot! 423 00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:52,960 What an honest to God... 424 00:36:53,847 --> 00:36:57,000 ...is honestly sometimes how I feel about it. 425 00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:01,120 How it feels, you know? 426 00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:08,260 I mean, stop trying to make yourself the centre of your own misfortune. 427 00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:12,540 You have an amazing wife. She loves you. 428 00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:15,600 So... 429 00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:18,320 I don't know... 430 00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:24,640 ...what any of it, or why any of it. 431 00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:05,080 You've gone quiet again. 432 00:38:10,240 --> 00:38:11,700 So have you. 433 00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:14,320 What are you thinking about? 434 00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:18,840 What are you thinking about? 435 00:38:31,240 --> 00:38:32,280 OK. Well... 436 00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:40,640 ...I'm thinking about... 437 00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:43,960 ...my responsibility towards you. 438 00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:51,239 Thinking about when it feels appropriate to push back 439 00:38:51,240 --> 00:38:53,240 on certain things, and when it doesn't. 440 00:38:55,600 --> 00:39:00,220 How, perhaps, I'm a little afraid to tell you the truth, 441 00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:04,460 of really taking you to task on one or two things you said. 442 00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:12,280 Because I can see that you're upset, and you're vulnerable. 443 00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:18,840 But I can also see that you're stuck. 444 00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:28,359 And then, I suppose, I'm thinking also about certain words 445 00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:31,580 and phrases which seem to keep cropping up... 446 00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:37,880 ...popping up again and again. Erm, control. 447 00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:43,740 Organised. Responsibility. Er... 448 00:39:44,720 --> 00:39:49,160 Meaning. Feeling. Fuss. 449 00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:56,160 And, of course, I would be lying if I said that I... 450 00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:05,439 ...I wasn't thinking about how desperately, desperately unfair, 451 00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:12,980 and incomprehensible, and unbearable, death is. 452 00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:20,199 How it changes everything, and yet all the while, 453 00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:24,560 changing absolutely nothing whatsoever at all. 454 00:40:28,240 --> 00:40:33,000 How... really truly shit that is. 455 00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:42,560 How really truly shit grief can make us feel, Joy. 456 00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:51,359 And then, if I think back to the start of our conversation, 457 00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:54,719 how you coped with the unintelligibility of the world, 458 00:40:54,720 --> 00:40:59,959 after the death of your mother, how you took back some level of control 459 00:40:59,960 --> 00:41:04,520 by, in a way by making or creating problems for yourself elsewhere. 460 00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:09,879 And then, if I take a moment... 461 00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:13,039 Wait a minute, wait a minute, I don't understand. 462 00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:14,959 OK. 463 00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:16,580 You're not being clear. 464 00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:19,120 OK. Well... 465 00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:29,239 Well, I suppose it's interesting to me, Joy, 466 00:41:29,240 --> 00:41:32,759 that when you and Alan first met, and you were still in 467 00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:37,079 a relationship with Lawrence, you didn't behave disruptively. 468 00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:40,479 You behaved as it were, erm, perfectly honourably. 469 00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:44,599 And then, in the wake of your mother's death, 470 00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:48,879 you decided, for whatever reason, to keep your current partner at bay. 471 00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:52,239 Away. A man you yourself, erm... 472 00:41:52,240 --> 00:41:53,880 So what? 473 00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:56,400 I don't... 474 00:41:57,880 --> 00:41:59,920 I mean, so fucking what? 475 00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:02,840 I did a stupid thing. 476 00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:05,920 I mean... 477 00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:08,760 Jesus, I mean, I was upset. 478 00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:11,320 I was a child! 479 00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:14,879 I wasn't suggesting it was stupid, Joy. 480 00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:16,360 Quite the opposite, in fact. 481 00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:22,960 Because, of course, a problem over here is a good thing. 482 00:42:24,720 --> 00:42:27,959 Because having a problem over here means not thinking, 483 00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:30,879 not having to think about, or deal with this great big, 484 00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:33,520 other sink-hole of a problem over here. 485 00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:39,799 It means control, responsibility, 486 00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:42,100 accountability, autonomy. 487 00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:49,279 But, in order to have that, it means having to wreak havoc elsewhere. 488 00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:53,620 Do you see? All the way, way, way, way, way over here... 489 00:42:55,720 --> 00:43:01,400 ...exploiting a catastrophe in order to block internal change. 490 00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:06,919 And when I think about your current situation, thinking about 491 00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:10,399 things as they currently stand, thinking back to where 492 00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:17,559 it all started, inviting a relative stranger into your consulting room. 493 00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:23,999 Do you see? Designing and implementing an elaborate, 494 00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:28,159 an arrangement, which means, or allows, this kind of 495 00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:32,439 antithetical behaviour to continue and to escalate. 496 00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:35,300 And when I say... To be absolutely clear, 497 00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:40,080 what I am not talking about here is... 498 00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:48,040 ...but what I am talking about is death. 499 00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:51,780 Is grief. 500 00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:55,640 Is feeling again, something, anything. 501 00:43:56,960 --> 00:44:00,960 Sex as a means of controlling, or neutralising. 502 00:44:02,240 --> 00:44:08,639 No, but... An antithesis to a deep and profound sense of loss. 503 00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:10,280 Wait, because... 504 00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:15,940 You said it yourself only a moment ago. 505 00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:22,280 Stop trying to place yourself at the centre of your own misfortune. 506 00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:30,959 Wow. Er... 507 00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:32,340 OK. 508 00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:34,240 Jesus! 509 00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:40,740 And when I think about your relationship 510 00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:45,100 as it currently stands, OK... 511 00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:50,840 ...here's what I understand to be the case. 512 00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:55,880 Joy? 513 00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:03,679 There was a very real loss of desire, 514 00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:07,039 which you tackled, both of you, head on, 515 00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:10,040 with a series of sanctioned infidelities. 516 00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:16,759 Which led, in fact, albeit counter-intuitively, but 517 00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:22,640 nonetheless extremely successfully, to a renewed sense of desire. 518 00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:26,480 Excitement. Intimacy. 519 00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:32,420 Does that seem like a fair assessment of things? 520 00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:36,240 Joy? 521 00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:45,800 So, my question to you, Joy, is why keep going? 522 00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:48,560 Do you see? 523 00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:51,480 Why not stop? 524 00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:58,160 Yes, I'm asking you. 525 00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:08,359 Because it's fun? Well, OK. 526 00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:12,520 So why keep going? Well, the answer is, because it's working. 527 00:46:13,760 --> 00:46:16,039 And you're enjoying yourselves, both of you. 528 00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:17,840 - Yeah. - And why not? Good for you. 529 00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:22,120 But then... 530 00:46:24,339 --> 00:46:25,739 ...so why Lawrence? 531 00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:29,520 Joy? 532 00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:32,820 Why take that risk? 533 00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:36,399 With things at home never better. 534 00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:39,560 Why persist in flirting with disaster? 535 00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:44,960 And why the situation with your eldest daughter? 536 00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:50,120 Why not tell her the truth? Set the record straight. 537 00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:56,540 And then why the standing up in public, Joy, 538 00:46:57,540 --> 00:46:59,800 in front of friends and colleagues? 539 00:47:02,740 --> 00:47:04,360 Do you see? 540 00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:10,399 Leapfrogging from this crisis to that crisis. 541 00:47:10,400 --> 00:47:13,120 It's all too much. 542 00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:20,240 You... 543 00:47:21,759 --> 00:47:26,780 ...are not responsible for that man. 544 00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:30,900 For what it was he did to himself. 545 00:47:32,040 --> 00:47:33,400 Joy... 546 00:47:34,686 --> 00:47:37,460 ...you simply are not. 547 00:47:58,080 --> 00:47:59,719 Oh, fuck. 548 00:47:59,720 --> 00:48:01,919 - It's all right, it's OK. - No, I'm sorry. 549 00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:03,960 Don't be. 550 00:48:21,680 --> 00:48:24,600 I just... I just... 551 00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:29,920 I feel so, so sorry for him. 552 00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:36,040 Not to mention Emily. I mean... 553 00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:42,040 Well... 554 00:48:47,840 --> 00:48:49,920 ...feeling is good. 555 00:48:59,080 --> 00:49:00,880 And... 556 00:49:02,360 --> 00:49:03,800 ...feeling even more... 557 00:49:05,720 --> 00:49:07,480 ...is even better. 558 00:49:11,160 --> 00:49:13,840 These aren't feelings to run away from. 559 00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:19,600 OK? 560 00:49:23,680 --> 00:49:25,999 Fuck, I'm sorry. 561 00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:28,680 Joy, I want you to stop apologising. 562 00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:33,040 Sorry, I just... 563 00:49:38,080 --> 00:49:42,200 I don't really think I have anything else to say. 564 00:49:45,560 --> 00:49:48,220 I mean, fuck, no, I mean, I'm not sorry at all. 565 00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:01,800 Maybe we can just sit here. 566 00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:05,400 For a little bit. 567 00:50:09,280 --> 00:50:10,600 Maybe... 568 00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:16,360 And then... 569 00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:24,360 Yeah. 570 00:50:28,640 --> 00:50:29,880 Maybe then... 571 00:50:56,080 --> 00:50:58,080 Before we finish... 572 00:51:00,560 --> 00:51:02,760 ...can I ask you what you're thinking about? 573 00:51:08,200 --> 00:51:11,560 Alan. Alan, I think. 574 00:51:15,480 --> 00:51:17,640 What I should do now. 575 00:51:21,520 --> 00:51:23,240 Whether to do anything, or... 576 00:51:30,200 --> 00:51:31,920 ...whether it's too late. 577 00:52:35,240 --> 00:52:36,800 See you next week? 578 00:55:53,920 --> 00:55:55,280 Hi. 579 00:56:02,200 --> 00:56:03,840 Hi. 42470

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