All language subtitles for Dead.Mans.Line.2018.1080p.WEBRip.x265-RARBG

I, Jimmie Carter,
do solemnly swear.

That I will faithfully execute.

That I will faithfully execute.

The office of President
of the United States.

If we were going to
go on a crusade across

the nation to try to do
away with the homosexuals.

Luis Robinson emerged
from being booked.

Yesterday a violent hijacker,
now accused of

killing two people,
seriously injuring two others

and terrorizing about
two dozen hostages.

I didn't intend to kill him.

I just wanted to make everybody

on the bus realize
that I was serious.

So how about making yourself

a part of that 200
year tradition?

Take stock in America with
United States savings bonds.

David Berkowitz indicted

for murder,
also known as Son of Sam.

His lawyer said if
he is brought to trial

he will use insanity
as a defense.

I just can't believe he's dead.

It's terrible,
but I just thank God that

Elvis died here at
Graceland instead of

on the road just like any
other rock and roll singer.

It's just a great
loss to everybody

and there's just like
an empty feeling inside.

Citizens subjected to violence,

vandalism, theft and discomfort.

The blackout has
threatened our safety.

We've been needlessly
subjected to a night of terror.

Here it is mid-morning
about 10:20 a.m. and looting

is still going on at this
particular supermarket.

The reason; there
are no cops here.

Have you recently
had a close encounter?

I want to speak to
someone in charge!

I want to lodge a complaint.

Close encounter with
something very unusual.

What the hell is
going on around here?

Who the hell are you?

Indiana emergency.

Sir, this is a dire emergency.

A real serious thing,
I've just taken a prisoner.

It's not a crank call.

I've got a 12 gauge sawed
off automatic shotgun.

There should be a lieutenant there,
too.

I was in Vietnam,
so I've been in firefights before.

I wasn't nervous,
I wasn't afraid.

I just,
I figured I'm here to cover this event.

Man with a gun,
possible hostage situation.

They're on the fourth floor,
control.

We need to shut down the elevators,
129 East Market Street.

Get back, gentlemen.

Get back away from the window.

Buck went up to the stairs,

but he's not
answering for anyone.

Secure that front door.

Clear the lobby.

Going right down the stairs now.

10-9, sir.

We're en route down the stairs,
he has a loaded 1042.

Everybody stay ready,
use caution.

They got down to the
corner and Tony's lost.

He doesn't know
where his car is.

He's walking east
on Market from,

east on Market from
Pennsylvania towards Delaware.

He does have a shotgun
wired to the subject's head.

They turned left toward
Washington Street

and right there is
a parking garage.

All cars, he's south

on Pennsylvania from Market,
south on

Pennsylvania
from Market on foot.

Marion County downtown,
the subject holding

the two city police
officers hostage is now

walking southbound on
Pennsylvania from Market.

Suspect has entered

a parking garage
on Pennsylvania.

Bill,
we gotta cross over for a better shot.

Look in the window.

Get outta here,
alright, excuse me.

We think he's
trying to take a car.

We estimate he
knew where his car,

but he refused
to give it to him.

Suspect's

coming back onto Pennsylvania.

Suspect's moving.

From the looks of it,
one movement

of his trigger finger
and Hall's head is gone.

Southbound for now.

Every time we'd stop
someplace he wanted a car.

He said,
till the car gets here we'll start walking.

We went down to Washington
Street and started walking west.

We're following the suspect

westbound on Washington Street,
control.

We're on the north side
of Washington Street.

You need to block
off Washington Street

somewhere before Rush Street.

Stand by, they've stopped.

The longer he
stood there and tried

to talk to people,
the madder he got.

Because he wasn't getting any of

the cooperation that he wanted.

No one knew what
Kiritsis was going to do.

For all they know he was
going to shoot him right there.

They're moving again, control.

Westbound on Washington.

The uniformed officers
were kind of rushing ahead.

And there were several
detectives walking together,

talking about, well, gee,
what can we do about this?

You know,
the first thing that they taught us

is you try to find out
what the problem is

and set up some type of
communications with the guy.

So I stepped forward and
started calling his name.

I saw Mike Grable
with his arms open.

Common gesture,
I'm unarmed, I can't hurt you.

What do you want?

He turned around and
he screamed at me.

He says, "Are you crazy?"

He says,
"You want me to kill this guy?"

Tony turned around and actually

pulled Hall as well
as the shotgun.

Then they slipped and fell,
both of them.

Hold your fire, hold your fire!

Got up and I remember
the look on his face.

He was real surprised that
that shotgun didn't go off.

And then he reached
down into his belt

and that's the first
time I realized he had

a pistol stuck in the
front of his pants.

It started to come
out or come loose

and as he was getting up,
both of them

were getting up,
he reached for his weapon.

And I'm thinking to myself,
well, if he pulls

this gun and points at me,
I'm going to shoot him.

Tony was close enough
to take that pistol out

and shoot a couple,
three policemen.

If Tony pulled that pistol,
if he'd have fired

I think someone
would have killed him.

They would have had to.

As I got closer I heard
Tony and he was very angry.

And he was yelling
at the policemen.

He said he liked
police officers,

some of his best
friends are police officers.

He said, "Now, do your job."

That was sort of the
dichotomy of the way he thought.

Is he's doing this wild,
crazy act,

but yet he thought they
should be doing their jobs

to stop him from
doing what he's doing.

We're passing Capitol.

Traffic's blocked ahead of you.

I knew we were in trouble.

All he wanted all the way
across town was a car.

An officer had parked a car,
long ways,

right by the path
that we were taking

with the door open
and the motor running.

And I thought,
we'll never make it

to the other side of the street.

And sure enough,
when we got to that door he said stop.

I knew it.

He told me to turn around
and he raised my sweater,

I knew what he was after,
he wanted my handcuffs.

As we're approaching the
intersection we hear a bang.

It startled all of
us because the

first thing we
looked at was Hall.

I hear this crash off to the
side and so I panned over.

There was just some gawker that,
poor guy,

had driven up on
this whole scene

and he was looking and ran into

the telephone pole,
so I went back to Hall.

Tony went over
to the car that was,

the marked police car was running,
door open.

He slid in and he
pulled Hall in behind him.

This wire around Hall's
neck was extremely tight

and I think Hall was
having trouble breathing.

Let's see if I can get a ride.

Does anybody got a car?

Come here, Bill, Bill come here.

Does anybody got a car?

Jack!

Mike and I talked about
it a number of times.

It just never, ever got any
easier talking about it because,

what are you going to do?

What are you going to do?

And that's really
what the officers

said to him, some,
several officers,

I think, said,
what are you going to do?

And we didn't know
what he was going to do.

And I'm not sure Tony knew
what he was going to do.

Mark, you've been following

another aspect of
this hostage situation.

What can you report
to us at this time?

Well, Tom, right now the suspect

and his victim are
proceeding westbound

on Washington Street
in an Indianapolis

police car with
red lights flashing.

The car is number 2-132.

It was proceeding west on demand

from the kidnapper,
apparently, as a consequence

and part of the
hostage situation

that developed
about an hour ago.

We are about two to
three hundred yards away

in line of sight from a red
brick apartment building.

The victim and assailant
are on the third floor of wing C,

but it's still not
known what the man's,

the problem is, a psychiatric problem,
if that be the case.

There is very likely to
be some very serious

conversation going on
within the apartment building.

Doug O'Brien, WIBC News.

He went inside with me and
several officers followed him.

He went into his
apartment and we went

and talked to
him for a little bit.

He says everybody
get away from this door,

don't come near this place.

He says, I got it wired.

He said this whole
building will go up.

♪ WNAP

Indianapolis.

We are back in contact
with Doug O'Brien.

And Doug you say you
have gotten a recent advisory

from Chief of Police
Eugene Gallagher.

Can you give us that situation?

That's correct,
Gallagher tells us

that the apartment
apparently is wired somehow

to be set off by nitroglycerin.

And they're advising
everybody to stay away

from the east
side of this building

because if the nitro is,
in fact,

there, and if,
in fact, it does go,

it's going to blow
out the east side

of this three story
apartment building.

There are officers
trying to negotiate with

the gunman and there
is a S.W.A.T. team right

outside the building
waiting for any eventuality.

I had a position where
I was straight across

from the next building
that I could look at

to the west that was
Tony Kiritsis's window.

Myself being a sniper,
I am setting up

something to put my gun on,
to put my rifle on

and wait for any word to
do whatever we need to do.

Mark Watkins just got through

talking with police
chief Eugene Gallagher

and here is his report.

Chief Gallagher indicated

that police had
considered trying to shoot

the man downtown as
he was proceeding west

on Washington
Street with his hostage.

However, the men,
the police department

got a good look at the
setup on the hostage

involving the gun
next to the man's head.

He was wired around his
fingers and around his arm.

So if he let go of it he
would still pull the trigger.

He had a cable around
the man's throat attached

to the shotgun,
so there's no way to get

the shotgun away
from the man's head.

So I told him, whatever you want,
just let me know.

He didn't say anything
about his intentions?

He said that he was going
to get everything he wanted

or he would shoot the man,
that's about all.

He never did tell me
exactly what he wanted.

He just kept walking.

Did Mr. Hall say anything

as you were walking
along the road?

No.

No.

He appeared to be fairly
calm for the situation that,

he did what he was told
and walked when he was told

to walk and stopped
when he was told to stop.

Would you describe

the suspect as being
extremely nervous?

No.

For the situation I'd
say he's fairly calm.

He knew exactly
what he was doing.

You've known Tony
for a number of years.

What kind of guy is he?

Well,
he's always been a kind of reasonable man.

He just seems
to be excited over,

he felt he's being beat
out of some money

over this real estate deal,
and apparently,

this loan company,
whatever loan company it is.

If he says he's
going to do something

is he the kind of
guy that'll do it?

Well, I would say yes,
as long as I've known him.

Now you were up there

talking through the door to him.

What did he tell you?

Well, he just told me that
he wasn't going to go to jail.

And he's going to see
to it he's treated right

on that loan that
they beat him out of,

or he probably wouldn't
come out of there,

neither would Mr. Hall,
whoever that is,

apparently the president of

this real estate
or loan company.

Now, do you think knowing him

that saying something
like that he really means it?

I definitely do,
without any question.

You could see up there in his

apartment he had
strings all the way across.

Well, what happened,
he had cans of gasoline with candles.

And if a string broke
and the candle went down

and it hit the gasoline,
then away it went.

And because of that the
snipers couldn't do anything.

I mean, they had a bead on him,
many, many times

up there where they could
have popped him if they want.

But they're afraid if they broke

the window with the shot,
that it

would trigger this thing
and away she went.

The dangers that lay,
they were up there.

I mean, he'd been telling us all

along the place
is totally wired.

I mean,
it looks wired from everything we can see,

you know, confirm with EOD,
state police,

sheriff and all of our
brain thrust together.

It looked like it was a
very well wired apartment.

I went out and
talked to him through

the doorway asking
him to please come out.

And it was almost like
he was almost crying,

but he couldn't come out.

He was sorry,
he was sorry, he was sorry,

but he could not come out.

And please don't come in,
Bobby, because it's wired.

The information got
to the core people

out at the apartment
complex that hey,

this guy's known
to law enforcement.

Well,
what's he been involved in?

Well, not in that way,
you know, they see him.

He's a west side guy,
comes in the restaurant

where they have
coffee in the morning.

Really?

Get them out here.

Frank,
you know Tony fairly well.

Do you know what precipitated this,
what happened today?

Well, this has been going
on for like three or four years.

It's concerning some
property that he owns

that he wants to get
financed or the bank wants

to second mortgage it or
something of this nature.

It's a financial type
situation and I felt like

he feels like he's been
discriminated against

or something and this is,
I think,

precipitated this
hostage and seizure.

Okay, what happened
after the other two incidents?

He one time held a city official,
seven or eight years ago.

Then he held his sister.

Yes.

For some time.

Yes.

What happened after
those two incidents?

Did he just go free?

Well, I arrested him one
time for assault and battery

with intent to kill and
he was put on probation.

He took a couple
shots at his brother.

Any advanced warning on this,

or is this something
that just came out

of the clear blue
sky this morning?

See,
I don't know because I haven't

seen Tony for
two or three years.

And I see his brother,
like, weekly.

And Tony communicates
with his brother quite a bit

and he's got a lot
of respect for him.

And he thinks, probably,
more of his brother than anybody.

And that's who they're
going to get now.

Yes, yes.

Thank you, Frank.

I was on business
in Brown County

and my wife hit me on the radio

and said call home right away.

I went into a
service station on,

east of National on 46,
it was a Shell station.

And I went in and I said, "Steve,
may I use your telephone?"

And he said look up at the TV.

He said look what the hell's
going on in Indianapolis.

And I looked up
there and I said,

my God, I said,
that's my brother.

That's how I learned.

You think the worst
when you see that.

You know?

Get killed, killing somebody,

all the things you
don't want to happen.

I called Frank Levin and
told him I would be on my way.

And he asked me, he said,
"Jim, do not drive."

He said,
"We're going to send a helicopter."

He said, "Where can it land?"

He has three brothers,

but he doesn't like two of them.

The one he does like,
Jimmie Kiritsis,

was called to his brother by
helicopter from Brown County.

He,
Tony Kiritsis has rejected any attempts

for anybody to get near the
apartment to talk with him.

The situation is,
he says he's not insane,

he knows what he's doing.

Good, Josh, thank you.

And, of course,
Josh is on the scene

and any moment anything
develops there we'll be on the air.

It was very obvious
from those early

conversations that
we were dealing

with somebody who is very,
very sick

and was capable
of being violent.

I'm going to mention
the evacuation.

Beg pardon?

I'm going to mention
the evacuation.

Any reason to?

To give us some
way to get into it.

Do your own thing, but uh...

Is there any
reason not to do it?

Hell, I don't know.

If there's any reason not to.

I've never done this before.

Howard, the gunman, Mr. Kiritsis

and the mortgage executive,
Mr. Hall,

are still in the third
floor apartment.

Nothing much has changed,
except that about 500

people are being evacuated
from these apartments.

They're going to be
spending the night

at various Indianapolis
area motels.

Howard, we understand the
gunman is watching channel six.

He's made a request
and here to fulfill it we

have Deputy Marion County Prosecutor,
George Martz.

Tony, as you know,
I've talked to you on the telephone.

You've made certain
specific demands

and in attempting to
comply with these demands

I have requested a
personal friend of yours,

Mr. Cliff Chapman,
to read a statement to you

on behalf of Meridian
Mortgage and Hall-Hottel.

This statement I
am reading has been

authorized by Mr. M.L. Hall,
the Chairman

of the Board of Meridian
Mortgage and Hall-Hottel.

This is a public apology
to Anthony Kiritsis

for all wrongs Meridian
Mortgage or Hall-Hottel

have committed in respect to Mr. Kiritsis,
thank you.

That was a statement
from Cliff Chapman

of the mortgage company. Paul,
we're not allowed to

ask Mr. Chapman any questions.

That was one of
several demands made

by the gunman Mr. Kiritsis.
He is an employee of the--

This has been a special report

from Eyewitness News Center.

Sorry,
there was a little confusion

there and noise
in the background,

but Kiritsis was angry,
apparently over

the mortgage loan arrangement
with Mr. Hall's company.

He demanded an apology,
demanded that

any financial
remuneration that was going

to come because of penalties,
because of

what had been done,
be paid by the company.

His demands were met,
he asked that

it be on Channel
Six and on WIBC.

And that is what
we know at this date.

Hank, are you still out there?

Yes, I'm here.

Are there any other
demands that you know of?

There apparently were
some other demands.

Hold on a second,
I'll find out exactly what they are.

No arrest,
no psychiatric treatment.

The admission of
guilt by the people,

which he has now received,
as well as

appropriate damages,
which again,

were promised in the
statement here this evening.

As to whether it will
ensure Mr. Hall's release,

that we'll have to wait and see.

So that's what we've been doing

as we've been doing all day,
just waiting.

Thank you, both of you,
Hank and Dennis.

We've brought
you this live report

and the statement that was made

because we have
been requested to

do so by the police department.

We believe in a case
like this it is important

that we cooperate and I'm sure you'd agree,
too.

We'll now return you to
our regular programming.

We will keep you in touch of any

other developments, goodnight.

This has been a special report

from Eyewitness News Center.

Fred Heckman was the major domo

here on news radio at that time,
WIBC.

He was well respected
and he was like

a Walter Cronkite here in radio.

♪ WIBC

And Fred said
that at some point,

Jim Hillyard,
who was our program director,

called him into the
office because they

were all live on
the radio and said,

"Fred, what are we going
to do about all those fucks?"

Yes, I can, Jan,
and we have been here all night.

At the beginning of the
night and right up until

just a few minutes
ago there's been kind of

an uneasy stillness around
the apartment complex.

Now, in the last few minutes,

things have become pretty tense.

I'm standing here now
with Jimmie Kiritsis.

He's not a desperado like
he's being painted up to be.

He's not a thief.

He never asked for
a five million dollar

ransom like it was reported.

He never held my sister,
three years ago or last October,

or whenever it was,
they said it was, for $50,000 dollars.

Them statements are untrue.

And naturally,
he's quite concerned

with the profile that's
been painted of him.

I would like to
resolve it if everybody's

willing and
everything goes well,

maybe we can
resolve it this morning.

Okay.

He started to make a
number of legal claims

about how he had
been cheated and how

he had these
legal claims against

the Meridian Mortgage company.

And also one of his
demands that they finally were

able to get was that he
was not to be prosecuted.

He called it an
immunity agreement.

The local authorities said well,

maybe we ought to get
some lawyers involved.

At mid-afternoon,
one of Kiritsis attorneys,

John Ruckelshaus,
came out to the apartment complex

but would say nothing
about his decision.

I got a call from Chief
Gallagher and says,

Jack,
Tony wants you here as his lawyer.

Well, you know,
like when Harry Truman

sent me a telegram
and got me in the Army

and I said yes, so out I went.

Have you examined
the immunity offer yet?

We don't know yet.

We're just out here
and we're going in.

That's all I can say.

They both were brought in,
basically as lawyers for him.

They were trying to defuse the

situation as much
as everybody else.

But at the same time
protecting their client's interests.

Considered, no.

Have there been any
additional demands?

No additional demands.

What about the problem
with the immunity?

Have you made up
your mind whether

you're going to
give it to him or not?

This is a problem that
will have to be resolved

by the Marion County
Prosecutor's office.

Well, what are they going to do?

I mean,
is there any indication they're going

to reject it or approve it,
or what?

Immunity has been discussed a

number of times
in the conversation.

However,
there's been no resolution of the question.

Basically, then,
we're at the same

point we have been
for the past 30 hours.

That's, he's calling the
shots and we're just waiting.

That would be a pretty fair assessment,
yes.

Apparently, Lou,
within the last 25

or 30 minutes the situation
has deteriorated some.

To what extent,
exactly, we don't know,

although there has
been a good deal

of yelling and
screaming going on

over the telephone
and through the door.

It became apparent
to us during the course

of this event that Tony
Kiritsis's real window

on what was occurring
was WIBC radio.

He was in contact with Fred.

Fred was back in
contact with him,

but he was also listening.

The Army bomb squad that's here

has begun to try and
think of ways to somehow

get in without setting
off the explosives.

We're told unofficially,
they could get in without

setting them off if Kiritsis
were incapacitated.

That particular moment
when the report went

that the S.W.A.T. team
was prepared to move,

it became
frighteningly clear what

kind of implication there was to

this kind of live
broadcast journalism.

Paul, the situation right
now is actually rather tense.

Within the past 20
minutes Tony Kiritsis

gave an order that everyone
get out of the building.

There, of course,
have been police in the building

as well as some
friends and relatives

of Tony who have
been talking with him.

He gave an order to
get out of the building.

You don't want to say
anything to set the guy off.

And maybe what
you're saying doesn't

appear to be incendiary,
but it is.

So Fred was kind of thrust into

the position as a negotiator.

Do it.

Okay.

We're not live,
just go ahead and do the interview.

Okay, fine, fine.

Okay,
they're setting up a negotiating

team inside this
van in back of us.

How effective do
you think that will be?

Well, I think at this time we
have to try almost anything.

Tony is coherent enough
to reason with somebody

and his attorney is
talking on his behalf.

And I think it will
be productive.

And then the FBI
sent in this hostage

negotiator psychologist who
had a heck of a reputation.

I mean, he had a countrywide
reputation on these things.

And he, of course,
was trying to size Tony up

as to how to handle him and
how to direct questions to him,

don't get him excited
and all this kind of stuff.

And he really knew
what he was doing.

I had a fella in class
and it was Mr. Gallagher.

He got on the phone
to the director of the FBI

and asked if I could be sent out

there to assist
them in negotiating.

He was the first person that

described himself as a profiler

and I'd never even
heard the term before.

But he said that he could,
by looking at

how Mr. Kiritsis had built
his gun and how he dressed,

he pretty much had
Tony's mental side pegged.

He's the one that then
told us certain things to do

and certain things not
to do in dealing with him.

And in formulating our
approach of basically

conceding to Tony,
that was all based upon

the psychology of Mr. Kiritsis
that Patrick came up with.

He said that a person
with this personality type

needs to be in
control of the situation.

And anytime that you
try to take that back,

then we're going
to have a situation

that becomes very,
very dangerous.

In Indianapolis a man
named Anthony Kiritsis

is still holding a hostage,
a real estate executive.

The drama is in its second day

and our man,
Mike Jackson, is there.

What kind of a man
is Anthony Kiritsis?

Friends of his who
have come out to

the apartment
complex to dissuade him

from doing anything
rash say he is

an emotional man,
a man prone to anger.

Police say he has a record,
mainly for beating people up.

One policeman,
who didn't want to be identified,

a man who said he
grew up with Kiritsis,

says he is a good
friend and a bad enemy.

He had purchased
this 17 acres of land

and cleared many
of the trees himself,

hoping to start a
shopping center.

He said he had some
commitments from

a grocery store
chain offering about

three million dollars
to start a center.

Then he says the
mortgage company

moved in and lured
the prospective

clients away to
other properties.

One of Kiritsis'
demands was that

the company apologize
for that and it did.

Today,
Kiritsis said in a radio station

telephone interview
he does not believe

the company's apology
and intends to go free.

Authorities say their
only hope is to keep

Kiritsis talking,
so his family and friends

are doing that through
the door of his apartment.

They are convinced that if the

talking stops people will die.

Mike Jackson,
NBC News, Indianapolis.

Kevin, it may well be that Fred

has become perhaps
involved in negotiations.

He merely got a
phone call from the FBI,

they asked him to
come out as quickly

as possible and he has done so.

We were able to sit down
with Fred and tell Fred,

hey, make upbeat comments,
get him pepped up again.

And he would do it and all of
a sudden Kiritsis responded.

They could understand
a mood and understand

a mood well enough to
sort of utilize where it is

in an up or a down cycle
to control and manipulate.

I thought that was fascinating.

Kiritsis was pretty
easy to chart.

But what you had
to be very careful,

when he was down
in that low level

that's the area where
despair sets in and they

make judgments like
I've nothing to live for,

so I might as
well kill this SOB.

There have been
some published reports

this afternoon quoting
prosecutor James Kelly,

who has been out of
town during this incident,

he's in Los Angeles
attending a conference,

quoting Kelly as
saying that if immunity

from arrest is what's
needed to prevent death

or prevent injury,
he is prepared to grant it.

Good evening, I'm in a room near

the police headquarters
outside the apartment

of Tony Kiritsis where he's
holding Dick Hall hostage.

We've been requested airtime by

the Marion County
Public Prosecutor's office

in order to give an address by

Deputy County
Prosecutor George Martz,

an address apparently
aimed at Tony Kiritsis himself.

Now, here's Mr. Martz.

Thank you,
at this time I would like to read

a letter from the office of
the prosecuting attorney

of Marion County,
James F. Kelly, prosecutor.

This document is dated February 9,
1977.

It's entitled letter of immunity

granted to Anthony
George Kiritsis.

Mr. Anthony George Kiritsis,

the Marion County prosecutor,
James F. Kelly,

does hereby confer and grant to

Anthony George Kiritsis
immunity from prosecution

with reference to the
abduction of Richard Hall

and all subsequent
acts done or alleged

to have been done or caused by

the said Anthony
George Kiritsis.

This document is
signed James F. Kelly,

authorized by David L. Rimstidt.

Mr. Kelly has been contacted by

myself on two occasions today,

the last time approximately
10 minutes ago.

He is fully aware
of this agreement

and you have his
assurance that the terms

of this agreement will
be strictly enforced.

I know there were
some meetings there

where Ruckelshaus
confronted Rimstidt after

the immunity tender
was made and put him

on the spot and said,
"Do you intend to honor this?"

Used some colorful
language in that regard.

And, as he described,
Rimstidt making

some squirms and
turns and said yes.

A few moments ago I spoke
with Tony's brother, Jimmie,

to see how he feels
about the offer of immunity.

If you just bear with us maybe

we'll have something, hopefully.

When was the last
time you talked to Tony?

I talked to him this morning.

Is he still calm?

Yes, very calm.

How do you feel about
the offer of immunity?

Do you think it's a good one?

Yes, it's a very good one.

Have you recommended it to Tony?

I told him it was
a very good one.

I don't recommend it,
he can, he's very capable

and very intelligent and
he'll make up his own mind.

From your point of view,
though, it's a good one?

Yes, it's a, under the circumstance,
a very good one.

He may just walk away.

Are you hopeful this
thing can wind up today?

Yes.

Let me ask you another question.

If immunity is granted,
what effect might this have,

do you think,
on people who might be

considering the
same course of action?

Some people might
consider that this

would encourage them
to do this kind of thing.

What do you think?

Well,
I think that's a possibility,

but I don't think it
has anything to do

with the situation that
we're confronted with.

I mean, that possibility.

We had to do what was
necessary and it's been

worked out to
everyone's satisfaction.

The police agencies
were thoroughly consulted,

prosecutor's office
worked with them.

And in this particular instance

it was the thing that was done.

Do you think the public would

accept the man who
had put a shotgun

to another man's
head going free?

Well, there's going to be some

that will object to it, sure.

And there's going
to be some that will

think that it was the
proper thing to do.

We're going to be second-guessed,
but that's part of life.

The big demand
has been immunity.

First,
the opportunity to voice his complaint

against the mortgage
company of which Hall

is an executive, but secondly,
the grant of immunity,

that nothing be
done to him because

of what Tony Kiritsis has done.

That offer has been offered,
that offer has been made

to Tony Kiritsis by the Marion
County Prosecutor's office.

And the big question
tonight as it was last night,

and as it was this morning,
is whether

Tony Kiritsis is
going to accept that.

The sun is setting out here,
but the story

is certainly far,
far from over and so we wait.

And then we have the
concept of creating a stage.

That's why we
all retreated to the

lobby of that
apartment building.

That was meant for him to
see on television to suck him out.

We knew that once
he saw it he'd say

to himself,
that's where I should be.

Right, I talked to him, I bet,

half a dozen times on the phone.

The last of which I called
him and said we got the note,

promissory note
for five million bucks.

No answer,
phone rang, rang, rang

and the next thing I
heard somebody said,

"Oh God, here he comes down."

He's coming out,
he's coming out!

While you people are watching

on television thank
you for taking such a--

We interrupt our
program schedule

to bring you the following
special report from ABC News.

Turn the goddamn cameras on!

I'm gonna show you something.

Read that, pal, read it!

Turn the cameras on,
all three, hold it!

I want on national television!

I've been called a kidnapper,

an extortionist,
a thug and everything else!

I want it on all three
national channels!

I've got friends all
over the country!

You read it!

And I go through
the double doors

and I am struck
by what is the most

bizarre scene I've
ever seen in my life.

They goddamn near made
me blow his goddamn brains out!

We have these ranking
officers and Fred Heckman

standing behind Tony
who's holding the gun

to Dick's head and
out here in the audience

are all of these
cameras and reporters.

And it's as though the oxygen
has gone out of the room.

Everybody is on edge.

To as being the illegal--

Hold it, hold it,
I want this goddamn thing understood.

I'll read it!

February 10th, 1977,
I want a glass of water!

This statement is
being made to try

and state the items
that Mr. Kiritsis alludes,

and I don't like that word.

I charged and
they've admitted it.

Alludes to as being illegal and

unethical acts
of the Hall Group.

This lease negotiation
approved the Kiritsis site

and had a definite
interest in building there.

Give me a drink, pal.

Give me a drink.

Good enough?

Alright, go easy.

Yeah, and I'm sober friends.

I had six drinks in 1976 and
I haven't had any this year.

This was presented to
us and was potentially

a good business deal,
but we found

it impossible to agree on terms

satisfactory to
our best interest.

Their best interest!

I went up there to
borrow money to build

a 10,000 foot restaurant
that would have grossed

between a million and
two million bucks a year and

these motherfuckers
shopped it to somebody else!

I had a lessee who guaranteed me

$100,000 dollars a
year rent plus 10% over

a million dollars
and I could have built

the building for
$220,000 bucks and put

$100,000 dollars
worth of equipment in it!

Listen to this one.

It's almost funny.

This trooper right here.

Come here, Mark,
hell of a good friend of mine.

A lot of friends of
mine here seen me,

has seen me
about every night for

three or four years
out in a couple

of restaurants around
here having coffee.

Too goddamn desperate
to do anything else.

So goddamn mad,
couldn't think good

and he always wondered what was wrong,
now he knows.

Right, Mark?

Yes, man.

Hell of a man,
good cop, this guy.

Good cop.

His eyes, the eyes of Tony

will occasionally
dart around the room,

and if he will,
if he sees someone

he recognizes he
will acknowledge them

and perhaps have a
comment or two about them.

All week he has
talked about revenge.

Part of that revenge is
being acted out tonight.

And almost an empty
and hollow look in the eyes

of Dick Hall as he
gazes around the room.

And he will make eye
contact with people,

but it's almost as though he is,
it's just

a proforma gesture
showing very little emotion.

Yeah, I suspect he must believe

that is what he must do
because he could trigger

the situation if he should
react one way or the other.

This brave young man and
his father would have said,

Tony I'll tell you what
we're going to do.

Because you're a nice fella and basically,
really,

we love you,
we wouldn't hurt you for anything,

we'll take the cream,
we'll take the front

10 acres there for
$130,000 and you can have

the back seven
where all the hogs shit.

Mr. M.L. Hall,
this gentleman's father

also states that
he personally takes

responsibility for
these improprieties.

I'm gonna frame that,
I'm through.

Where's my attorney?

He had this thing about he
wanted everybody to hear

what had been done to him,
how he was wronged.

I mean, that was his litany
over and over and over again.

Should we keep on with this,
what if

he kills this man in
front of everybody?

Let alone the language
which was not heard

on TV at that time
on any channel.

And it was surreal.

I think he wanted to
tell his side of the story.

As far as the public knew
Kiritsis was a madman.

He was bright enough
that he understood that

and saw how he
was being portrayed.

And so I think he called
Fred to try to get his story out.

If I can get Fred to
let me air my side of

the story then maybe
people will see my point.

Hi, Fred.

Hello, Tony.

You're gonna be late for
work in the morning, pal.

I think I'm gonna sleep late.

I don't know if you can get away with that,
can you?

Not really.

I have to, I have to say again

that Mr. Fred
Heckman here of WIBC.

Fred Heckman,
in my opinion, was a jewel.

He was thrown
into a bad situation,

but he was a gentleman
through the whole damn thing.

I have some people that
might be watching this

in various places and
I'm not trying to be funny.

And I never did like notoriety

and I don't like it
any better tonight,

but my aunts in Akron,
Ohio and my cousins

and some damn good Greek
friends in the state of Florida,

and some people I was in
the Army with in New England.

And I want them to know that,
by God, I was right.

Lee and Lou, Paul Page is back

in the back of the room
now and we're going

to try and make some
contact with Paul.

Go ahead, Paul.

Tom, we continue to watch
in the back of the room.

I'm keeping my
voice low because of

the nature of the
circumstance here.

We have a man who
is very anxiety-prone.

He continues to stand
with an automatic shotgun

jammed up against the
back of the man's skull.

Tony continues to
move from a position

of happiness to one of
somewhat depression.

It's a very, very,
very dangerous atmosphere at the moment.

If the shotgun fell there's
no real change in the room,

it would not only
injure his hostage,

it's going to injure an awful
lot of people in this room.

We'll continue to watch
and we'll report back.

And I also want to
apologize to this man's family.

I am sorry I humiliated this man,
this way,

even though he must
have surely had it coming.

Every once in a
while he'd look at Hall

and the back of his head,
and boy,

and the look on his face,
I thought,

oh God,
he's going to pull that trigger.

I went to Gene
Gallagher and I said,

Gene,
I'm getting a little nervous.

He's almost sounding suicidal.

And Mullaney was
standing right next to me

and he said, my God,
he's going to shoot him on television.

That was the scariest part,
to me.

He would laugh and
then he would cry.

Yeah, yeah,
you know for a goddamn dummy I lucked out.

I want to take,
I'd like to please,

a lot of nice people called
me in two or three days

and told me that
they were behind me.

We're behind you, Tony.

And I want to thank them.

We're behind you, Tony.

I want to thank my brothers,
Jimmie and George

and Mark and John, Johnny there.

I can't think of his last name,
Johnny Ferguson.

Billy Cotton and the
people that supported me.

And I can tell you,
by God, I was in trouble.

I was in a hell
of a lot of trouble.

You saw one of these
goddamn things off

and kidnap somebody I'm
going to tell you something,

I'm sorry,
but there ain't much left in that old road.

I said when I started out
I figured I'd be on a long,

narrow, one-way dead end
road and that's what it was.

Tony was becoming so riled
up that Gallagher was going,

okay, this is it, you know,
I've got to do something.

Because he's going to blow
this guy's head off on live TV.

If they felt that
Tony had finally gone

to the point too far
that he was going to

eliminate Dick Hall,
Tony was going to be taken out.

Chief Gallagher told Josh,
when I retire

come talk to me about
the plan to kill Tony.

They had talked to a doctor
at the hospital and said,

what's the best way
to kill Tony instantly?

And he said, put a gun behind
his ear and pull the trigger.

My role, if I was given the nod,

was to try to jam
the shotgun itself with

the cylinder on the side
where you eject shells.

And if you notice,
there was a sleeve

across that cylinder
part of that gun.

It would have been
almost impossible

for me to grab it
and jam it at the time.

Chief Gallagher,
he had a gun in one pocket

and a handkerchief in the other.

When he pulled the
handkerchief out that meant

that he was going
to shoot and kill Tony.

He said three times,
he reached into his pocket

for the handkerchief
during the press conference.

And he said three
times he put it back.

This is Chief Gallagher
of the Indianapolis

Police Department and
also a damn fine man

and this man was fair with me,
damn fair with me.

Well, I'm gonna tell you,
this man is safe.

The only thing I wanted
at the time was for

this to end without
anybody getting hurt.

Had I went for the shotgun,
made a mistake,

Dick Hall would have been dead,
Tony Kiritsis been dead.

Tony, sorry to interrupt,
we're going to--

Hi, come here,
you're awful bashful.

I'm the shy one.

Would you like to smile for us?

For you, I will.

I shaved before I came
over here and you never

even came out,
get that goddamn thing done.

We're going right now, Tony.

If you wasn't a good attorney

I don't know what
I'd do without you.

I did not,
was not aware at the time

that there was
negotiations in the back

to bring this out to
Tony that he had won.

Waiting on that settlement.
Waiting on damn attorneys.

Waiting on that five million
dollars that I just stole.

Pardon me?

Give Tony some
more room in here.

We ought to have
some more water.

I need a little and I--

Come here, babe.

Here, Dickie. I'm on the job.

Give it to Dick.

Give Dick, here Dick.

Got it?

George,
if you don't get out from

in front of them
goddamn cameras--

Oh, I'm sorry.

You're not going to be
in any more of my shows.

I'm upstaging you.
You know that?

I'm sorry, sorry, sorry.

You're doing a single,
my apologies.

Mark, pull my pants up.

What, what are you?

Those bastards did that.

If you had a little
bit of butt in there,

you wouldn't have to
have pulled them up.

That's it, I've had it.

I'm sorry, it was my turn.

It was my turn to bat,
you believe that.

Tony, you want to go back
and winter in until Billy gets--

Yeah, let's get out of here.

Where's it cool?

Where's Frank at?

Where's it cool?

I want to thank,
I want to thank the people

that supported me,
I want to thank the people

that were fair,
I'm sorry about my language

and I'm sorry that this
thing had to happen.

Tony, follow me.

Okay.

Follow John, Tone.

We're going with you.

We're talking,
we're talking, we're talking,

this news conference
is going along.

It's being broadcast
live and all of a sudden

the focus of the news
conference and his hostage

move out into this other
room and the media's

kind of standing there like,
what's going on,

what's going on, what do we do?

Okay, so they are out of sight.

They are at the
apartment complex still.

So then at the end it
was just the payday,

was the five million
dollar promissory

note that we were
willing to give.

And that was to be
done when he released

the hostage we
would sign the note

and that would be
the end of the story.

Okay, Paul,
I'm presently outside the building

where the really
amazing news conference,

of sorts,
took place moments ago.

What happened was
that that ended and Tony

and Dick Hall,
again still attached by the gun,

moved down a
hallway in that building.

At that point the
police ordered all

news personnel
out of the building.

It's nice and cool in here.

Harry,
Tony wants to talk to you.

Tony, there's people out there,

lots of people out there.

Go on live, go on live.

Stay there,
there's nothing we can do.

Go on live,
go to him, go to him!

Get him to go to him.

Paul, here at the scene you
may not be able to see me,

we're not allowed to use lights.

A dramatic development
just a few moments ago,

we did hear a gunshot.

At this point we do not
know exactly what it means.

We heard a gunshot,
there is no way

of knowing what exactly developed,
just before--

Stand by.

Yeah, I thought he killed Hall.

I mean, it was,
I knew what a shotgun sounded like

and I knew that was a shotgun.

Come on.

Mac, pick that up.

Mac's got it.

Okay,
we're getting over to George Martz.

And is Hall out of danger?

Sure, we got him.

We got him, he's okay.

Where's Tony?

I have no idea.

I don't know,
I don't give a shit.

We heard one shot.

What happened?

I don't know what,
I can't explain the shot, but, but--

Would you go find out for us?

I'll find out.

George, louder!

The hostage is out, he's okay!

The hostage is
released and is alright.

There is no indication yet
as to what the gunshot was.

There is no indication as
to the condition of Tony,

but Martz says the
hostage is alright.

The hostage is alright.

We heard one shot.

We do not know at this
point why we heard it.

But the deputy prosecutor
says that the hostage is alright.

Okay, okay,
I've got some information.

Some new information apparently.

Tony did shoot the gun,
but only as a demonstration that,

indeed, it was real,
only as a demonstration.

Okay, there's some

activity down the block here.

We're going to see
what else we can find out.

Okay.

We're putting
him in the car now.

Watch your head, Tony.

Let's step back,
let's move back.

More blasts.

Another shot behind us.

If I were Mr. Hall I'd go home.

I don't know.

Is he still in the building?

Yeah.

Can you just,
can you reconstruct

what you know about
the time from when

they left us till
all was resolved?

They went into the command,
what was the command post,

they negotiated and
they released Mr. Hall.

He walked out in the hall and

we took him down
to another room.

So there was more
negotiation inside.

Do you know the nature of it?

Nope, sure don't.

Who undid the wires,
for example?

I don't know, I wasn't in,
I was not in the room.

I don't, I really,
I really don't care.

He's, he's, we got him,
everybody's alive, nobody got hurt.

Do you think this thing
was handled correctly?

Is the agreement any
good that you signed?

Immunity agreements,
are they valid in any way at all?

Will they stand up in any court?

We promised immunity.

I'm going to have a
statement on this at a

later time and I would
like to be able to collect

my thoughts and be
able to discuss it rationally.

I'm very tired at
the present time.

I'd rather not discuss it.

Have you any precedent at this

point for this kind of thing?

I just would rather not
comment at this present time.

Is that press conference
going to be tomorrow?

We'll, you'll be notified.

And we ended up down
at Wishard in the holding

cell down there which
was a padded cell.

I mean,
you had a window about like this.

I was inside with Tony alone
and all of a sudden Tony,

he was about five,
about five, six,

something like that,
stocky as hell,

and I was about six two.

And he had grabbed me
around the neck like this

and said, Jack, he says,
I really screwed up, didn't I?

I thought he was going
to break my damn neck.

And I said, Tony, I said,
you got some problems.

I said, I didn't argue with
him and I didn't agree with him.

I just put the neuter in
there and I got back over

there toward the door
and I hit on that window

like this to get me
the hell out of there.

Then they finally opened
the door and I got out.

But, boy, that was a scary time.

I thought the guy was
going to break my neck,

because he's strong as a bull.

In Indianapolis Anthony
Kiritsis held a shotgun

at the head of a kidnapped
hostage for 60 hours

demanding a promise he
would not be prosecuted.

Well, he got the promise.

Today, not surprisingly,
when he let

the hostage go he
found the promise was

not worth the paper
it was written on.

The hostage is free
and Kiritsis is in jail.

Here's Mike Jackson
in Indianapolis.

Kiritsis staged a bizarre

news conference that
lasted almost an hour.

No one knew whether
he would fire the shotgun

and kill his hostage or others.

Hostage Richard Hall's
face was almost purple

because the wire around
his neck was so tight.

Kiritsis was taken
immediately to the county jail.

He is charged with seven crimes

including kidnapping
and armed robbery.

His bail is more than three
quarters of a million dollars.

He was arrested even though
he had been promised immunity.

Mike Jackson,
NBC News, Indianapolis.

Immunity cannot be
granted to an accused.

A document was typed
up and given to him

which would have granted
him immunity so long

as the prosecutor's
office honored the terms.

I'll say this,
there was never any intention on

the part of the prosecutor's
office to honor the terms.

That's pure and simply it.

He's presently in jail.

The total bond is
$850,000 dollars.

Yes, ma'am?

Hall was greeted by
a standing ovation,

by warm applause
as he bravely faced

the news media in the
city county building today.

His wife was by his side.

The strain of the
events of the past

three days evident
on both faces.

Hall had been
advised by his attorneys

to not answer questions
on the details of

his treatment as a hostage,
but he did talk.

He did have some
things he wanted to say.

It's been a long ordeal.

My family and I are
extremely grateful

to God for a safe
solution in this ordeal.

We're most
appreciative of all those

thoughts and prayers
that were with us

and we can't express
enough our gratitude.

And then more applause as Hall,

obviously a strong,
stoic individual,

left the news conference.

Many questions
remain unanswered,

but for now Richard Hall says he

is content to just
close the door.

Close the door on the harrowing

events of the past three days.

I eventually told
Tony that I couldn't

represent him because
I'm going to end up being

a state's witness in this
thing and I can't do both.

I said, I'll get you a lawyer
and I'll get you a good one.

That's when I got
him Owen Mullin.

Well, they didn't last too long

because they didn't get along.

I mean, it's very difficult for

somebody to get along with Tony.

He doesn't want to take orders,
he wants to give orders.

And Owen, of course,
being a lawyer,

says you're going to
do what I tell you to do.

And how he got ahold of Stanton,
I don't know.

I happened to be
representing a man

named Roger
Drollinger at the time.

Drollinger was in
the Marion County jail

in a cell next to Tony Kiritsis.

But Drollinger and
Kiritsis got along real well

and Drollinger
recommended me as a lawyer.

So on Drollinger's
recommendation

Kiritsis decided to hire me.

In a case of this magnitude
you research every

potential legal issue that
you can possibly argue.

You research the
insanity defense.

You research jury instructions.

You research every
potential legal issue you can

because Tony was
facing a life imprisonment.

Tony, of course,
didn't want this defense.

His defense would have been,
they had it coming.

So,
it's been an all-time loser of a defense.

In fact,
studies show that it's a very minute

percent of people
ever assert this defense

and in those cases very
few people will win it.

The theory of our
defense was that Tony

was insane at the
time of the offense.

If we were to investigate
Meridian Mortgage

and if we had been able to prove

that Tony's
allegations were true,

then it would
suggest that he wasn't

out of touch with reality
and he was simply

mad at Meridian
Mortgage and that he just

took the law into his own hands.

That's not a defense.

Everybody saw Tony do it.

Everybody saw the
horror in Dick Hall's face

and saw the possibility
that that trigger's

going to get
pulled intentionally,

or unintentionally,
and on live TV

you're going to
watch somebody die.

Erasing those images
or at least allowing

the jury to say,
I can understand the acts

actually occurred,
but still find

somebody not guilty
was a real challenge.

Mr. Stanton said,
"Would you like

"to meet Mr. Kiritsis
and talk with him?"

In several interviews that
lasted several hours each

became very knowledegable about

what had led up to
this incident in his life.

He had a very
interesting and difficult life.

He was the son of immigrant
parents from Greece.

They were very poor,
very hardworking.

He loved his mother dearly.

His father was, apparently,
quite a mean man,

physically violent
toward the children.

One of the stories
he told was that

at the ice cream stand
that they worked at,

the younger children
had to go around

the parking lot and
pick up the empty

paper cups and
wash them so that they

could be reused as a
way of saving money.

He remembers on one
occasion when they didn't

get all of them picked
up quickly enough

and a car backed
over some of them,

his father whipping him
out in this public space

in front of one of
Mr. Kiritsis's friends

and family and then whoever else

happened to be
there in that area.

He was brought in by two
very big men hanging onto him.

He was very upset that
people are so mean to him.

That they would arrest him,
that they would

put him in prison
and lock him up.

Why would they do that to him?

No, he knew what he was doing.

He was doing it on purpose,
this man deserves it.

Where the kink in
his thinking was that

he had been hurt and therefore,
if he was hurt,

he was able to go out and
do things to make it right.

He would have long
times where he was

a good solid citizen
and he would have other

times where he was
basically a wild man.

There's three things
going on in a case like this.

And that is first of all,
the prosecutor is trying

to make their case, obviously,

beyond a reasonable
doubt and not make mistakes

that are going to be
grounds for appeal if

the case goes up,
if the guy's found guilty.

The defense wants
to make mistakes,

they want to make a
shambles of the trial if they can,

so there's lots of things
they can argue about.

And then the judge's role
is to keep very tight control

of the courtroom,
keep tight control of the jury

and not make any
mistakes that are likely

to be used on appeal
if he's found guilty.

The defense
psychiatrist said yes,

he was insane at the time.

The prosecution psychiatrist said no,
he wasn't.

And I think because
the psychiatric testimony

was fairly strong on both sides,

I think the jury kind
of just disregarded it.

We got tired of them.

They all talked
in clinical terms.

Was Tony paranoid or
was he schizophrenic,

or maybe he wasn't?

So we had to try to make
sense of that and after a while,

in all honesty,
it got very confusing and almost pointless.

This was not the first time that

Kiritsis had done
something like this.

This was kind of a
reenactment of an incident

that he had had
with his own family.

Effie Kiritsis testified next.

Tony's older sister
had to be lifted into

the witness chair as she
is crippled with arthritis.

She had not seen her
brother for eight years.

At that time he broke
into her home with a gun

and held her for
two and a half days

while demanding a
financial settlement

for his work at the
family trailer court.

It was brother Tom,
however, who revealed

that the family
agreed to give Tony

$55,000 dollars,
to not send Tony

to a psychiatrist,
to not press charges.

Ironically,
the details of the agreement

for Effie's release were
remarkably like those

demanded by Kiritsis when
he held Dick Hall hostage.

Linda Lupear for the news,
Channel 6.

He put Tony on the stand,
which was surprising,

and I thought at that point,
well we're really

going to hear what
Meridian Mortgage did to him.

And it was the same old story.

Just when you thought
you were going to find out

what it was that they had
done that really set him off,

he would zing off,
which made you think that well,

he just couldn't pay the
mortgage and eventually

they were going to
foreclose on the land.

I mean, that's basically
where you ended up every time.

I mean, it happened several
times during the testimony.

And I thought, well, is that it?

They had given Tony
an extension of time

in which to pay his
mortgage payments

on the land that he was buying.

And they'd done this
repeatedly and then when

they finally didn't then he thought,
well,

this meant they were
trying to cheat him.

He thought that they
had interfered with

his efforts to develop
the land and hoping

that he would therefore
fall behind on payments

so that they could get it for,
the land for a low price.

And that's, there was just
not evidence to back that up.

I did to Dick Hall was a terrible thing,
a horrible thing.

I didn't want to do it
and I tried not to do it.

At that point he
burst into tears.

Defense attorney Niles
Stanton then led him

through a narration
about his early family life.

His voice quivering,
Kiritsis said he loved

his father in spite
of his strictness.

He began pushing
an ice cream cart

12 hours a day
at the age of nine.

At times he broke
down completely

and needed time
to compose himself.

Kiritsis told a different story

of the abduction
of his sister saying

he was being pushed
out by the family.

Things became very cool.

He was very hurt by what
Effie and his brothers did.

The jury stared at the defendant

as he told of a vow he
made over his mother's

casket promising to
take care of the family.

He dropped a class
ring in the coffin.

He said he made
a cross on the wall

in his own blood the
day he broke the oath.

That was the day the family

threw him out
of the trailer park.

And we might add, Clyde,

that the courtroom
was packed all day.

I'll bet.

What's it look like
for the rest of the trial?

Well,
it will probably go to the jury,

the judge says maybe
by next Thursday.

Okay, thanks Linda.

We had lots and lots of
jury instructions in this case.

Basic instruction was,
was at the time of

the offense did he
have a mental disease

or defect that
prevented him from

understanding the
consequences of his action?

Even if he knew right and wrong,

did he still have enough
volition to be a sane person?

With that final
instruction not guilty

by reason of insanity
at the time of the act.

Not a minute before
or not a minute after,

at the time of the act.

I thought, wow,
I'm surrounded by a bunch of adults here.

There ain't no way they're
going to see it different,

pssh, but they did.

We had a tough time of it.

And we came at
it from everybody's

own opinions and
experience and also,

in some cases,
correct and in some cases,

faulty remembrances of what
we heard over the last 14 days.

We were all so emotionally
drained and tired.

We knew he did it.

It was very evident he did it
from the footage that we saw.

But the problem was the
way the law was written.

We all went back into
the courtroom because

we didn't think we
could come to a verdict.

Judge Dugan told us that,
yes, I think

you can come to a verdict and he

sent us back in for
more deliberations.

I was prepared to tell
the judge we were going

to be a hung jury
if that's what it took.

All 12 of us had doubts.

The question is
is whether or not

they were reasonable doubt.

I don't think there
was a single juror

that was happy with the verdict.

We found out the votes.

The first vote was six to six.

The next vote we
learned was eight to four.

We didn't know
which way eight to four.

The next vote was 10 to two.

The next vote was 11 to
one and then it seemed

to have been 11 to one forever

and then finally
they had a verdict.

But neither side knew which
way the jury was leaning.

Be seated.

For the record this is CR77-44A.

The time is 10:04 on October 21st,
1977.

I'll ask the jury and I'll
ask the foreman of the jury,

duly elected,
do you have verdicts?

I do, Your Honor.

If you'll pass those
verdicts to the bailiff, please.

Okay, will the defendant,
Mr. Kiritsis,

please rise and face the bench,
sir.

Foreman, the verdict is,
we the jury find the defendant

Anthony J. Kiritsis,
not guilty by reason of--

I've got to tell you one thing.

Just a minute, Mr. Kiritsis.

Just a minute, please.

We further find
that the defendant,

Anthony J. Kiritsis
committed the act charged

in count three
of the information

and that at the time the
defendant was insane and is,

therefore,
not guilty by reason of insanity.

Please be seated.

I'm sorry, I'm sorry,
Your Honor.

Does the state
wish to poll the jury?

No, Your Honor.

The court now sets at nine o'clock,
a.m.,

November the 9th, 1977,
as that date for a hearing

pursuant to statute on
the question of competency

as to further action by
the court in this case.

With that,
the court is adjourned.

I knew how difficult it was for

the prosecutor to
prove that he was sane.

I think both sides did
an extremely good job.

Based on the
testimony I was surprised

that the jury would think he was,
in fact,

insane when the
offense was committed.

Yeah, I was in a way because

that's a very difficult defense.

You've gotta have
overwhelming evidence that

a guy is wacko and I
didn't think it was there.

I mean, he was up and down,

yo-yo like and
everything like that.

I had to think the
jury may have felt a

little bit sorry for Tony
on his getting screwed

out of that land or
something like that.

Something to give them
an idea to give him a break.

I found him to be very
honest and forthright.

I could identify with the
abuse he went through.

To this day I resent anybody
telling me I had better.

It wasn't nothing for
his dad to get him up

and tell him he
had better get out

and start humping
them ice creams.

He was thrust into a
manhood as a child

and I can identify with
that more than you know.

What did he have to gain by not

showing anything
less than the truth?

Okay?

You're not going to
make that stuff up.

When they took
the insanity defense

the state took the other side.

He was just a mad, mean man.

They would tell you there
wasn't nothing insane about him.

Nothing.

But the minute they
found him not guilty

they switched and
said he's crazy,

he needs more tests and
he should be locked up.

At that point Tony refused
to take any more tests.

He said, you guys said there
was nothing wrong with me.

Now you're saying
you want all kinds of,

and he wasn't,
and they held him for almost 10 years

in contempt of
court for that reason.

And that tells you what
kind of guy Dugan was.

He's very inadequate,
in my opinion.

Because that could not have been the law,
in my opinion.

And I don't who manipulated him,
someone did, though.

I'll always believe that.

I've got my suspicions
but I can't prove them.

You're not in a world here where

you can say things
are black or white.

And you have to say they're
somewhere in between.

Certainly, Tony did not meet
the criteria for being insane.

On the other hand,
his behavior was insane.

So,
what are you going to do with that?

You have to work on
that and chew it a bit.

Let me say something.

We all live in the
greatest country on earth.

But this is the
type of thing that

undermines the
liberties that my father

and my mother came
here from Greece for.

And probably all
of your ancestors

and I'm not trying to be corny.

I may be a flag waver,
but I wave it a hell of

a lot better than John Wayne,
I'll tell you that.

I did not.

Okay.

I lost credibility
with Kiritsis.

I lost credibility
in the community

and I don't appreciate it.

I didn't care for it
one way or the other

but I had that
credibility in this hand

and I had Hall's life and,
you know,

his wife and children,
his little girls,

on this hand, in my mind.

And I weighed the two and I,
to myself,

said, I felt that his life was,

and if I could help save it,

his life was more
important over here than

the credibility that I'd
have to work to get back.

This is an interesting
point you bring up

because these young
people here at Ball State,

in journalism,
in radio and television

are going to be faced
with it more and more

in the immediate years to come.

Terrorism,
with all the technological advances

that are coming,
coming down now,

and the sophisticated
forms of terrorism

that are being developed
in Europe are coming

across here as surely
as we're sitting here today.

The question now
is what are these

young men and women,
as journalists,

going to be doing when
they have a terrorist

on one hand who says,
"I'm going to poison

"the water supply
of New York City?"

Hey, it is very easy.

I'm going to blow up
all the transmission lines

in the state of Indiana,
the electrical power lines.

And that's not that far fetched.

Technologically,
it's available and it is possible.

Now,
if this young journalist knows this

information does he broadcast it,
does he not?

You know, where do we go?

Prior restraint,
I totally disagree with, prior restraint.

I don't want anybody
telling me that you can

or cannot broadcast
this at any given time.

I don't,
my First Amendment rights, I think,

would be jeoparidized
and violated there.

But we are going
to have to think

about restraints and I,
and here I am waffling.

I'm going from one side
of this fence to the other.

I don't know the answer.

I don't know that anybody does.

The Kiritsis thing opened
our eyes to a lot of things.

First of all,
we have these insta-cams,

mini-cams, action cams,
they're all the same thing.

They're portable,
instant television cameras

which our promotion departments
and our news departments

thought were great
promotional gimmicks.

You take these out and you give

the impression of
being everywhere live.

We didn't think through the

philosophical
questions involved.

Kiritsis finally brought
it all home to us.

Once you arrive at
the scene of a story

like a Kiritsis
hostage incident,

when you turn that
camera on you are

setting up a life
or death situation

in living rooms
all across the city.

I don't think the question is,

and I'm a little tired of
some of these people

who say they are,
the self-righteous atmosphere,

the attitude of,
of we upheld the

public morality by
pulling the plug on it.

That's nonsense,
that's not the question.

The question is should we
have gone in to begin with?

Should we have set up
that circus atmosphere?

Hour by hour reports
saying this man may have

his head blown off in your
living room at any moment now.

Whether we should,
in effect what we were saying,

we set it up for people
and then to pull the plug

at the moment
of truth is too late.

And I think the questions
that need to be asked

about violence and
these live cameras is

when do you go in and
when do you hold back?

When do you stay
back from the scene?

Because we don't,
when do you inform

and when do you incite,
in other words.

I think this is
probably the first case,

maybe in judicial history,
where the jury

was also the
eyewitness to the crime.

Where everyone
in the jury box had,

not newspaper clippings or
hearsay evidence to go by,

they saw it happen,
either live or in replays.

So when all of those
sober arguments were made

by a criminologist
and psychiatrist about

this man's mental condition,
I'm convinced that,

and I have no evidence other
than my own thoughts on this,

that going through the
minds of the jury were not

all of those arguments
they were hearing,

but what they saw that
night when John Wayne,

who was receiving an award,
suddenly turned into

Tony Kiritsis with a,
holding a gun

to this man's head
in their living room.

I mean, my first reaction
was this is crazy, he's crazy.

And the jury ruled he's
crazy and therefore, innocent.

Tony became kind of an annoyance

to people after
a period of time.

I'm not going to
mention any names,

but I got a call from a
television news anchor

who is a friend of
mine and I was working

at another television
station at this time and said,

"Are you getting
calls from Tony?"

And I said yes
and he said so am I.

He said, what are you saying?

I said, Tony,
I tell him, I'm sorry,

you know,
you had some bad breaks.

You know, I, there's nothing
I can do for you at this point.

I can't help you.

And sadly, and I think this is

a moment of
honesty in journalism,

is that Tony was an
old story by that time.

And maybe he
should not have been,

but we were all in a
very competitive business

and we just didn't
see a lot of value

in spending a lot
of time in pursuing

the Tony Kiritsis
story ad nauseum.

But maybe it should
have been pursued.

In retrospect maybe
it should have been,

but none of us made that call.

Most of us made the call to,
to just let it go,

until somebody sort of examines

the significance and the legacy.

So, good for you.