1 00:00:01,939 --> 00:00:03,905 I, Jimmie Carter, do solemnly swear. 2 00:00:03,939 --> 00:00:05,801 That I will faithfully execute. 3 00:00:05,836 --> 00:00:07,456 That I will faithfully execute. 4 00:00:07,491 --> 00:00:10,491 The office of President of the United States. 5 00:00:11,801 --> 00:00:13,698 If we were going to go on a crusade across 6 00:00:13,732 --> 00:00:15,836 the nation to try to do away with the homosexuals. 7 00:00:18,870 --> 00:00:21,801 Luis Robinson emerged from being booked. 8 00:00:21,836 --> 00:00:24,112 Yesterday a violent hijacker, now accused of 9 00:00:24,146 --> 00:00:26,698 killing two people, seriously injuring two others 10 00:00:26,732 --> 00:00:29,663 and terrorizing about two dozen hostages. 11 00:00:29,698 --> 00:00:31,491 I didn't intend to kill him. 12 00:00:31,525 --> 00:00:33,284 I just wanted to make everybody 13 00:00:33,318 --> 00:00:35,284 on the bus realize that I was serious. 14 00:00:35,318 --> 00:00:36,870 So how about making yourself 15 00:00:36,905 --> 00:00:39,112 a part of that 200 year tradition? 16 00:00:39,146 --> 00:00:43,663 Take stock in America with United States savings bonds. 17 00:00:43,698 --> 00:00:45,698 David Berkowitz indicted 18 00:00:45,732 --> 00:00:47,870 for murder, also known as Son of Sam. 19 00:00:47,905 --> 00:00:49,939 His lawyer said if he is brought to trial 20 00:00:49,974 --> 00:00:52,215 he will use insanity as a defense. 21 00:00:52,250 --> 00:00:54,043 I just can't believe he's dead. 22 00:00:55,353 --> 00:00:56,974 It's terrible, but I just thank God that 23 00:00:57,008 --> 00:00:59,387 Elvis died here at Graceland instead of 24 00:00:59,422 --> 00:01:03,560 on the road just like any other rock and roll singer. 25 00:01:10,387 --> 00:01:12,801 It's just a great loss to everybody 26 00:01:12,836 --> 00:01:15,250 and there's just like an empty feeling inside. 27 00:01:15,284 --> 00:01:17,181 Citizens subjected to violence, 28 00:01:17,215 --> 00:01:19,870 vandalism, theft and discomfort. 29 00:01:21,043 --> 00:01:24,698 The blackout has threatened our safety. 30 00:01:24,732 --> 00:01:29,077 We've been needlessly subjected to a night of terror. 31 00:01:29,112 --> 00:01:32,491 Here it is mid-morning about 10:20 a.m. and looting 32 00:01:32,525 --> 00:01:35,732 is still going on at this particular supermarket. 33 00:01:35,767 --> 00:01:37,801 The reason; there are no cops here. 34 00:01:37,836 --> 00:01:40,250 Have you recently had a close encounter? 35 00:01:40,284 --> 00:01:42,318 I want to speak to someone in charge! 36 00:01:42,353 --> 00:01:43,801 I want to lodge a complaint. 37 00:01:43,836 --> 00:01:46,043 Close encounter with something very unusual. 38 00:01:46,077 --> 00:01:47,974 What the hell is going on around here? 39 00:01:48,008 --> 00:01:49,525 Who the hell are you? 40 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:51,181 Indiana emergency. 41 00:01:51,215 --> 00:01:53,525 Sir, this is a dire emergency. 42 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:56,284 A real serious thing, I've just taken a prisoner. 43 00:01:56,318 --> 00:01:57,767 It's not a crank call. 44 00:01:57,801 --> 00:02:01,732 I've got a 12 gauge sawed off automatic shotgun. 45 00:05:00,284 --> 00:05:03,008 There should be a lieutenant there, too. 46 00:05:22,146 --> 00:05:26,181 I was in Vietnam, so I've been in firefights before. 47 00:05:26,215 --> 00:05:29,422 I wasn't nervous, I wasn't afraid. 48 00:05:29,456 --> 00:05:33,387 I just, I figured I'm here to cover this event. 49 00:05:41,594 --> 00:05:44,318 Man with a gun, possible hostage situation. 50 00:05:44,353 --> 00:05:46,112 They're on the fourth floor, control. 51 00:05:46,146 --> 00:05:48,905 We need to shut down the elevators, 129 East Market Street. 52 00:05:48,939 --> 00:05:50,284 Get back, gentlemen. 53 00:05:50,318 --> 00:05:53,629 Get back away from the window. 54 00:05:53,663 --> 00:05:55,974 Buck went up to the stairs, 55 00:05:56,008 --> 00:05:58,836 but he's not answering for anyone. 56 00:06:01,318 --> 00:06:03,250 Secure that front door. 57 00:06:20,353 --> 00:06:21,456 Clear the lobby. 58 00:06:21,491 --> 00:06:23,629 Going right down the stairs now. 59 00:06:23,663 --> 00:06:25,077 10-9, sir. 60 00:06:25,112 --> 00:06:29,870 We're en route down the stairs, he has a loaded 1042. 61 00:06:29,905 --> 00:06:32,284 Everybody stay ready, use caution. 62 00:07:31,629 --> 00:07:35,801 They got down to the corner and Tony's lost. 63 00:07:37,836 --> 00:07:39,732 He doesn't know where his car is. 64 00:07:39,767 --> 00:07:44,146 He's walking east on Market from, 65 00:07:44,181 --> 00:07:46,836 east on Market from Pennsylvania towards Delaware. 66 00:07:46,870 --> 00:07:49,353 He does have a shotgun wired to the subject's head. 67 00:07:49,387 --> 00:07:51,836 They turned left toward Washington Street 68 00:07:51,870 --> 00:07:54,629 and right there is a parking garage. 69 00:07:54,663 --> 00:07:56,456 All cars, he's south 70 00:07:56,491 --> 00:07:58,284 on Pennsylvania from Market, south on 71 00:07:58,318 --> 00:08:00,112 Pennsylvania from Market on foot. 72 00:08:00,146 --> 00:08:02,112 Marion County downtown, the subject holding 73 00:08:02,146 --> 00:08:03,870 the two city police officers hostage is now 74 00:08:03,905 --> 00:08:07,870 walking southbound on Pennsylvania from Market. 75 00:08:07,905 --> 00:08:09,732 Suspect has entered 76 00:08:09,767 --> 00:08:11,629 a parking garage on Pennsylvania. 77 00:08:11,663 --> 00:08:14,801 Bill, we gotta cross over for a better shot. 78 00:08:20,456 --> 00:08:22,043 Look in the window. 79 00:08:24,974 --> 00:08:26,939 Get outta here, alright, excuse me. 80 00:08:36,250 --> 00:08:40,387 We think he's trying to take a car. 81 00:08:41,491 --> 00:08:43,112 We estimate he knew where his car, 82 00:08:43,146 --> 00:08:46,181 but he refused to give it to him. 83 00:08:47,870 --> 00:08:49,146 Suspect's 84 00:08:49,181 --> 00:08:52,112 coming back onto Pennsylvania. 85 00:08:52,146 --> 00:08:53,560 Suspect's moving. 86 00:09:00,215 --> 00:09:03,870 From the looks of it, one movement 87 00:09:03,905 --> 00:09:08,422 of his trigger finger and Hall's head is gone. 88 00:09:08,456 --> 00:09:11,801 Southbound for now. 89 00:09:21,905 --> 00:09:25,905 Every time we'd stop someplace he wanted a car. 90 00:09:25,939 --> 00:09:30,215 He said, till the car gets here we'll start walking. 91 00:09:30,250 --> 00:09:34,387 We went down to Washington Street and started walking west. 92 00:09:39,318 --> 00:09:40,801 We're following the suspect 93 00:09:40,836 --> 00:09:42,284 westbound on Washington Street, control. 94 00:09:42,318 --> 00:09:44,698 We're on the north side of Washington Street. 95 00:09:44,732 --> 00:09:46,422 You need to block off Washington Street 96 00:09:46,456 --> 00:09:48,491 somewhere before Rush Street. 97 00:09:48,525 --> 00:09:50,698 Stand by, they've stopped. 98 00:09:52,456 --> 00:09:54,456 The longer he stood there and tried 99 00:09:54,491 --> 00:09:57,767 to talk to people, the madder he got. 100 00:09:57,801 --> 00:09:59,560 Because he wasn't getting any of 101 00:09:59,594 --> 00:10:02,215 the cooperation that he wanted. 102 00:10:13,870 --> 00:10:16,836 No one knew what Kiritsis was going to do. 103 00:10:16,870 --> 00:10:20,112 For all they know he was going to shoot him right there. 104 00:10:48,112 --> 00:10:51,732 They're moving again, control. 105 00:10:51,767 --> 00:10:53,767 Westbound on Washington. 106 00:11:09,112 --> 00:11:13,181 The uniformed officers were kind of rushing ahead. 107 00:11:13,215 --> 00:11:16,318 And there were several detectives walking together, 108 00:11:16,353 --> 00:11:20,525 talking about, well, gee, what can we do about this? 109 00:11:23,870 --> 00:11:25,836 You know, the first thing that they taught us 110 00:11:25,870 --> 00:11:28,594 is you try to find out what the problem is 111 00:11:28,629 --> 00:11:31,594 and set up some type of communications with the guy. 112 00:11:31,629 --> 00:11:35,801 So I stepped forward and started calling his name. 113 00:11:49,422 --> 00:11:52,215 I saw Mike Grable with his arms open. 114 00:11:52,250 --> 00:11:54,767 Common gesture, I'm unarmed, I can't hurt you. 115 00:11:54,801 --> 00:11:56,250 What do you want? 116 00:11:57,698 --> 00:12:00,284 He turned around and he screamed at me. 117 00:12:00,318 --> 00:12:02,043 He says, "Are you crazy?" 118 00:12:02,077 --> 00:12:05,387 He says, "You want me to kill this guy?" 119 00:12:06,732 --> 00:12:09,456 Tony turned around and actually 120 00:12:09,491 --> 00:12:12,525 pulled Hall as well as the shotgun. 121 00:12:12,560 --> 00:12:16,870 Then they slipped and fell, both of them. 122 00:12:16,905 --> 00:12:19,594 Hold your fire, hold your fire! 123 00:12:26,284 --> 00:12:28,560 Got up and I remember the look on his face. 124 00:12:28,594 --> 00:12:31,422 He was real surprised that that shotgun didn't go off. 125 00:12:31,456 --> 00:12:35,491 And then he reached down into his belt 126 00:12:35,525 --> 00:12:37,732 and that's the first time I realized he had 127 00:12:37,767 --> 00:12:40,663 a pistol stuck in the front of his pants. 128 00:12:40,698 --> 00:12:42,663 It started to come out or come loose 129 00:12:42,698 --> 00:12:45,387 and as he was getting up, both of them 130 00:12:45,422 --> 00:12:47,801 were getting up, he reached for his weapon. 131 00:12:47,836 --> 00:12:50,043 And I'm thinking to myself, well, if he pulls 132 00:12:50,077 --> 00:12:54,353 this gun and points at me, I'm going to shoot him. 133 00:12:54,387 --> 00:12:56,767 Tony was close enough to take that pistol out 134 00:12:56,801 --> 00:12:58,767 and shoot a couple, three policemen. 135 00:12:58,801 --> 00:13:00,939 If Tony pulled that pistol, if he'd have fired 136 00:13:00,974 --> 00:13:02,870 I think someone would have killed him. 137 00:13:02,905 --> 00:13:04,836 They would have had to. 138 00:13:09,836 --> 00:13:14,732 As I got closer I heard Tony and he was very angry. 139 00:13:14,767 --> 00:13:17,767 And he was yelling at the policemen. 140 00:13:20,181 --> 00:13:21,905 He said he liked police officers, 141 00:13:21,939 --> 00:13:24,112 some of his best friends are police officers. 142 00:13:24,146 --> 00:13:25,663 He said, "Now, do your job." 143 00:13:25,698 --> 00:13:28,422 That was sort of the dichotomy of the way he thought. 144 00:13:28,456 --> 00:13:30,663 Is he's doing this wild, crazy act, 145 00:13:30,698 --> 00:13:33,284 but yet he thought they should be doing their jobs 146 00:13:33,318 --> 00:13:36,525 to stop him from doing what he's doing. 147 00:13:56,318 --> 00:13:59,043 We're passing Capitol. 148 00:13:59,077 --> 00:14:01,318 Traffic's blocked ahead of you. 149 00:14:01,353 --> 00:14:04,318 I knew we were in trouble. 150 00:14:04,353 --> 00:14:07,318 All he wanted all the way across town was a car. 151 00:14:07,353 --> 00:14:10,525 An officer had parked a car, long ways, 152 00:14:10,560 --> 00:14:13,491 right by the path that we were taking 153 00:14:13,525 --> 00:14:16,939 with the door open and the motor running. 154 00:14:20,801 --> 00:14:23,181 And I thought, we'll never make it 155 00:14:23,215 --> 00:14:25,008 to the other side of the street. 156 00:14:25,043 --> 00:14:28,353 And sure enough, when we got to that door he said stop. 157 00:14:28,387 --> 00:14:29,250 I knew it. 158 00:14:31,318 --> 00:14:33,905 He told me to turn around and he raised my sweater, 159 00:14:33,939 --> 00:14:38,008 I knew what he was after, he wanted my handcuffs. 160 00:14:39,422 --> 00:14:43,491 As we're approaching the intersection we hear a bang. 161 00:14:46,870 --> 00:14:49,181 It startled all of us because the 162 00:14:49,215 --> 00:14:51,732 first thing we looked at was Hall. 163 00:14:54,698 --> 00:14:58,870 I hear this crash off to the side and so I panned over. 164 00:15:00,112 --> 00:15:02,525 There was just some gawker that, poor guy, 165 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:04,491 had driven up on this whole scene 166 00:15:04,525 --> 00:15:06,456 and he was looking and ran into 167 00:15:06,491 --> 00:15:10,112 the telephone pole, so I went back to Hall. 168 00:15:11,836 --> 00:15:14,043 Tony went over to the car that was, 169 00:15:14,077 --> 00:15:16,491 the marked police car was running, door open. 170 00:15:16,525 --> 00:15:20,836 He slid in and he pulled Hall in behind him. 171 00:15:20,870 --> 00:15:23,905 This wire around Hall's neck was extremely tight 172 00:15:23,939 --> 00:15:27,767 and I think Hall was having trouble breathing. 173 00:15:47,456 --> 00:15:50,698 Let's see if I can get a ride. 174 00:15:56,560 --> 00:15:58,250 Does anybody got a car? 175 00:15:58,284 --> 00:15:59,767 Come here, Bill, Bill come here. 176 00:15:59,801 --> 00:16:00,939 Does anybody got a car? 177 00:16:00,974 --> 00:16:02,387 Jack! 178 00:16:02,422 --> 00:16:04,318 Mike and I talked about it a number of times. 179 00:16:04,353 --> 00:16:09,146 It just never, ever got any easier talking about it because, 180 00:16:09,181 --> 00:16:10,663 what are you going to do? 181 00:16:10,698 --> 00:16:12,043 What are you going to do? 182 00:16:12,077 --> 00:16:13,974 And that's really what the officers 183 00:16:14,008 --> 00:16:16,181 said to him, some, several officers, 184 00:16:16,215 --> 00:16:19,250 I think, said, what are you going to do? 185 00:16:19,284 --> 00:16:21,456 And we didn't know what he was going to do. 186 00:16:21,491 --> 00:16:23,456 And I'm not sure Tony knew what he was going to do. 187 00:16:23,491 --> 00:16:25,181 Mark, you've been following 188 00:16:25,215 --> 00:16:26,836 another aspect of this hostage situation. 189 00:16:26,870 --> 00:16:28,663 What can you report to us at this time? 190 00:16:28,698 --> 00:16:30,836 Well, Tom, right now the suspect 191 00:16:30,870 --> 00:16:32,870 and his victim are proceeding westbound 192 00:16:32,905 --> 00:16:34,836 on Washington Street in an Indianapolis 193 00:16:34,870 --> 00:16:36,663 police car with red lights flashing. 194 00:16:36,698 --> 00:16:39,112 The car is number 2-132. 195 00:16:39,146 --> 00:16:41,077 It was proceeding west on demand 196 00:16:41,112 --> 00:16:43,974 from the kidnapper, apparently, as a consequence 197 00:16:44,008 --> 00:16:45,801 and part of the hostage situation 198 00:16:45,836 --> 00:16:48,560 that developed about an hour ago. 199 00:16:48,594 --> 00:16:51,456 We are about two to three hundred yards away 200 00:16:51,491 --> 00:16:54,836 in line of sight from a red brick apartment building. 201 00:16:54,870 --> 00:16:58,525 The victim and assailant are on the third floor of wing C, 202 00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:00,698 but it's still not known what the man's, 203 00:17:00,732 --> 00:17:04,387 the problem is, a psychiatric problem, if that be the case. 204 00:17:04,422 --> 00:17:06,974 There is very likely to be some very serious 205 00:17:07,008 --> 00:17:09,905 conversation going on within the apartment building. 206 00:17:09,939 --> 00:17:11,974 Doug O'Brien, WIBC News. 207 00:17:12,008 --> 00:17:15,043 He went inside with me and several officers followed him. 208 00:17:15,077 --> 00:17:16,939 He went into his apartment and we went 209 00:17:16,974 --> 00:17:18,767 and talked to him for a little bit. 210 00:17:18,801 --> 00:17:20,974 He says everybody get away from this door, 211 00:17:21,008 --> 00:17:22,318 don't come near this place. 212 00:17:22,353 --> 00:17:23,732 He says, I got it wired. 213 00:17:23,767 --> 00:17:26,663 He said this whole building will go up. 214 00:17:26,698 --> 00:17:27,525 ♪ WNAP 215 00:17:29,767 --> 00:17:31,284 Indianapolis. 216 00:17:31,318 --> 00:17:33,456 We are back in contact with Doug O'Brien. 217 00:17:33,491 --> 00:17:35,698 And Doug you say you have gotten a recent advisory 218 00:17:35,732 --> 00:17:37,112 from Chief of Police Eugene Gallagher. 219 00:17:37,146 --> 00:17:38,698 Can you give us that situation? 220 00:17:38,732 --> 00:17:40,698 That's correct, Gallagher tells us 221 00:17:40,732 --> 00:17:43,836 that the apartment apparently is wired somehow 222 00:17:43,870 --> 00:17:46,422 to be set off by nitroglycerin. 223 00:17:46,456 --> 00:17:48,801 And they're advising everybody to stay away 224 00:17:48,836 --> 00:17:50,353 from the east side of this building 225 00:17:50,387 --> 00:17:51,939 because if the nitro is, in fact, 226 00:17:51,974 --> 00:17:54,284 there, and if, in fact, it does go, 227 00:17:54,318 --> 00:17:56,112 it's going to blow out the east side 228 00:17:56,146 --> 00:17:57,698 of this three story apartment building. 229 00:17:57,732 --> 00:17:59,801 There are officers trying to negotiate with 230 00:17:59,836 --> 00:18:02,181 the gunman and there is a S.W.A.T. team right 231 00:18:02,215 --> 00:18:06,939 outside the building waiting for any eventuality. 232 00:18:06,974 --> 00:18:09,353 I had a position where I was straight across 233 00:18:09,387 --> 00:18:11,594 from the next building that I could look at 234 00:18:11,629 --> 00:18:15,732 to the west that was Tony Kiritsis's window. 235 00:18:15,767 --> 00:18:18,422 Myself being a sniper, I am setting up 236 00:18:18,456 --> 00:18:21,284 something to put my gun on, to put my rifle on 237 00:18:21,318 --> 00:18:25,146 and wait for any word to do whatever we need to do. 238 00:18:25,181 --> 00:18:27,215 Mark Watkins just got through 239 00:18:27,250 --> 00:18:28,939 talking with police chief Eugene Gallagher 240 00:18:28,974 --> 00:18:30,181 and here is his report. 241 00:18:30,215 --> 00:18:31,663 Chief Gallagher indicated 242 00:18:31,698 --> 00:18:33,525 that police had considered trying to shoot 243 00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:35,801 the man downtown as he was proceeding west 244 00:18:35,836 --> 00:18:37,801 on Washington Street with his hostage. 245 00:18:37,836 --> 00:18:40,008 However, the men, the police department 246 00:18:40,043 --> 00:18:42,353 got a good look at the setup on the hostage 247 00:18:42,387 --> 00:18:45,801 involving the gun next to the man's head. 248 00:18:45,836 --> 00:18:48,250 He was wired around his fingers and around his arm. 249 00:18:48,284 --> 00:18:50,939 So if he let go of it he would still pull the trigger. 250 00:18:50,974 --> 00:18:53,250 He had a cable around the man's throat attached 251 00:18:53,284 --> 00:18:54,870 to the shotgun, so there's no way to get 252 00:18:54,905 --> 00:18:56,594 the shotgun away from the man's head. 253 00:18:56,629 --> 00:19:00,112 So I told him, whatever you want, just let me know. 254 00:19:00,146 --> 00:19:02,663 He didn't say anything about his intentions? 255 00:19:02,698 --> 00:19:05,456 He said that he was going to get everything he wanted 256 00:19:05,491 --> 00:19:07,663 or he would shoot the man, that's about all. 257 00:19:07,698 --> 00:19:10,870 He never did tell me exactly what he wanted. 258 00:19:10,905 --> 00:19:12,112 He just kept walking. 259 00:19:12,146 --> 00:19:13,767 Did Mr. Hall say anything 260 00:19:13,801 --> 00:19:15,043 as you were walking along the road? 261 00:19:15,077 --> 00:19:16,456 No. 262 00:19:16,491 --> 00:19:17,939 No. 263 00:19:17,974 --> 00:19:20,284 He appeared to be fairly calm for the situation that, 264 00:19:20,318 --> 00:19:23,215 he did what he was told and walked when he was told 265 00:19:23,250 --> 00:19:25,456 to walk and stopped when he was told to stop. 266 00:19:25,491 --> 00:19:26,801 Would you describe 267 00:19:26,836 --> 00:19:28,560 the suspect as being extremely nervous? 268 00:19:28,594 --> 00:19:30,250 No. 269 00:19:30,284 --> 00:19:32,353 For the situation I'd say he's fairly calm. 270 00:19:32,387 --> 00:19:35,077 He knew exactly what he was doing. 271 00:19:35,112 --> 00:19:37,318 You've known Tony for a number of years. 272 00:19:37,353 --> 00:19:38,836 What kind of guy is he? 273 00:19:38,870 --> 00:19:40,801 Well, he's always been a kind of reasonable man. 274 00:19:40,836 --> 00:19:42,732 He just seems to be excited over, 275 00:19:42,767 --> 00:19:44,974 he felt he's being beat out of some money 276 00:19:45,008 --> 00:19:47,146 over this real estate deal, and apparently, 277 00:19:47,181 --> 00:19:49,732 this loan company, whatever loan company it is. 278 00:19:49,767 --> 00:19:51,836 If he says he's going to do something 279 00:19:51,870 --> 00:19:53,318 is he the kind of guy that'll do it? 280 00:19:53,353 --> 00:19:55,318 Well, I would say yes, as long as I've known him. 281 00:19:55,353 --> 00:19:56,698 Now you were up there 282 00:19:56,732 --> 00:19:57,974 talking through the door to him. 283 00:19:58,008 --> 00:19:59,456 What did he tell you? 284 00:19:59,491 --> 00:20:01,836 Well, he just told me that he wasn't going to go to jail. 285 00:20:01,870 --> 00:20:04,215 And he's going to see to it he's treated right 286 00:20:04,250 --> 00:20:06,215 on that loan that they beat him out of, 287 00:20:06,250 --> 00:20:08,215 or he probably wouldn't come out of there, 288 00:20:08,250 --> 00:20:10,250 neither would Mr. Hall, whoever that is, 289 00:20:10,284 --> 00:20:11,698 apparently the president of 290 00:20:11,732 --> 00:20:13,181 this real estate or loan company. 291 00:20:13,215 --> 00:20:15,043 Now, do you think knowing him 292 00:20:15,077 --> 00:20:16,801 that saying something like that he really means it? 293 00:20:16,836 --> 00:20:20,181 I definitely do, without any question. 294 00:20:21,663 --> 00:20:23,284 You could see up there in his 295 00:20:23,318 --> 00:20:25,939 apartment he had strings all the way across. 296 00:20:25,974 --> 00:20:30,043 Well, what happened, he had cans of gasoline with candles. 297 00:20:30,077 --> 00:20:32,939 And if a string broke and the candle went down 298 00:20:32,974 --> 00:20:35,594 and it hit the gasoline, then away it went. 299 00:20:35,629 --> 00:20:38,767 And because of that the snipers couldn't do anything. 300 00:20:38,801 --> 00:20:41,318 I mean, they had a bead on him, many, many times 301 00:20:41,353 --> 00:20:44,043 up there where they could have popped him if they want. 302 00:20:44,077 --> 00:20:45,456 But they're afraid if they broke 303 00:20:45,491 --> 00:20:47,146 the window with the shot, that it 304 00:20:47,181 --> 00:20:50,732 would trigger this thing and away she went. 305 00:20:53,008 --> 00:20:55,215 The dangers that lay, they were up there. 306 00:20:55,250 --> 00:20:56,836 I mean, he'd been telling us all 307 00:20:56,870 --> 00:20:58,284 along the place is totally wired. 308 00:20:58,318 --> 00:21:00,353 I mean, it looks wired from everything we can see, 309 00:21:00,387 --> 00:21:02,560 you know, confirm with EOD, state police, 310 00:21:02,594 --> 00:21:05,284 sheriff and all of our brain thrust together. 311 00:21:05,318 --> 00:21:09,456 It looked like it was a very well wired apartment. 312 00:21:10,974 --> 00:21:13,008 I went out and talked to him through 313 00:21:13,043 --> 00:21:15,663 the doorway asking him to please come out. 314 00:21:15,698 --> 00:21:18,387 And it was almost like he was almost crying, 315 00:21:18,422 --> 00:21:19,870 but he couldn't come out. 316 00:21:19,905 --> 00:21:21,836 He was sorry, he was sorry, he was sorry, 317 00:21:21,870 --> 00:21:23,353 but he could not come out. 318 00:21:23,387 --> 00:21:28,043 And please don't come in, Bobby, because it's wired. 319 00:21:28,077 --> 00:21:31,698 The information got to the core people 320 00:21:31,732 --> 00:21:34,284 out at the apartment complex that hey, 321 00:21:34,318 --> 00:21:36,594 this guy's known to law enforcement. 322 00:21:36,629 --> 00:21:38,146 Well, what's he been involved in? 323 00:21:38,181 --> 00:21:41,146 Well, not in that way, you know, they see him. 324 00:21:41,181 --> 00:21:43,525 He's a west side guy, comes in the restaurant 325 00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:45,353 where they have coffee in the morning. 326 00:21:45,387 --> 00:21:46,215 Really? 327 00:21:46,250 --> 00:21:47,594 Get them out here. 328 00:21:47,629 --> 00:21:50,905 Frank, you know Tony fairly well. 329 00:21:50,939 --> 00:21:53,905 Do you know what precipitated this, what happened today? 330 00:21:53,939 --> 00:21:56,594 Well, this has been going on for like three or four years. 331 00:21:56,629 --> 00:21:58,767 It's concerning some property that he owns 332 00:21:58,801 --> 00:22:01,284 that he wants to get financed or the bank wants 333 00:22:01,318 --> 00:22:05,008 to second mortgage it or something of this nature. 334 00:22:05,043 --> 00:22:08,422 It's a financial type situation and I felt like 335 00:22:08,456 --> 00:22:12,456 he feels like he's been discriminated against 336 00:22:12,491 --> 00:22:15,318 or something and this is, I think, 337 00:22:17,525 --> 00:22:20,284 precipitated this hostage and seizure. 338 00:22:20,318 --> 00:22:23,250 Okay, what happened after the other two incidents? 339 00:22:23,284 --> 00:22:25,801 He one time held a city official, seven or eight years ago. 340 00:22:25,836 --> 00:22:27,215 Then he held his sister. 341 00:22:27,250 --> 00:22:28,043 Yes. 342 00:22:28,077 --> 00:22:28,870 For some time. 343 00:22:28,905 --> 00:22:30,318 Yes. 344 00:22:30,353 --> 00:22:31,422 What happened after those two incidents? 345 00:22:31,456 --> 00:22:33,250 Did he just go free? 346 00:22:33,284 --> 00:22:36,112 Well, I arrested him one time for assault and battery 347 00:22:36,146 --> 00:22:40,146 with intent to kill and he was put on probation. 348 00:22:42,732 --> 00:22:46,594 He took a couple shots at his brother. 349 00:22:46,629 --> 00:22:48,318 Any advanced warning on this, 350 00:22:48,353 --> 00:22:50,663 or is this something that just came out 351 00:22:50,698 --> 00:22:52,422 of the clear blue sky this morning? 352 00:22:52,456 --> 00:22:54,250 See, I don't know because I haven't 353 00:22:54,284 --> 00:22:56,422 seen Tony for two or three years. 354 00:22:56,456 --> 00:22:59,077 And I see his brother, like, weekly. 355 00:22:59,112 --> 00:23:02,767 And Tony communicates with his brother quite a bit 356 00:23:02,801 --> 00:23:04,698 and he's got a lot of respect for him. 357 00:23:04,732 --> 00:23:07,732 And he thinks, probably, more of his brother than anybody. 358 00:23:07,767 --> 00:23:09,284 And that's who they're going to get now. 359 00:23:09,318 --> 00:23:10,215 Yes, yes. 360 00:23:10,250 --> 00:23:12,939 Thank you, Frank. 361 00:23:12,974 --> 00:23:14,836 I was on business in Brown County 362 00:23:14,870 --> 00:23:16,353 and my wife hit me on the radio 363 00:23:16,387 --> 00:23:18,836 and said call home right away. 364 00:23:18,870 --> 00:23:21,767 I went into a service station on, 365 00:23:21,801 --> 00:23:25,974 east of National on 46, it was a Shell station. 366 00:23:26,008 --> 00:23:29,112 And I went in and I said, "Steve, may I use your telephone?" 367 00:23:29,146 --> 00:23:30,594 And he said look up at the TV. 368 00:23:30,629 --> 00:23:33,008 He said look what the hell's going on in Indianapolis. 369 00:23:33,043 --> 00:23:34,491 And I looked up there and I said, 370 00:23:34,525 --> 00:23:36,698 my God, I said, that's my brother. 371 00:23:36,732 --> 00:23:38,491 That's how I learned. 372 00:23:40,594 --> 00:23:42,560 You think the worst when you see that. 373 00:23:42,594 --> 00:23:43,491 You know? 374 00:23:43,525 --> 00:23:45,112 Get killed, killing somebody, 375 00:23:45,146 --> 00:23:48,008 all the things you don't want to happen. 376 00:23:48,043 --> 00:23:50,836 I called Frank Levin and told him I would be on my way. 377 00:23:50,870 --> 00:23:53,250 And he asked me, he said, "Jim, do not drive." 378 00:23:53,284 --> 00:23:55,284 He said, "We're going to send a helicopter." 379 00:23:55,318 --> 00:23:57,284 He said, "Where can it land?" 380 00:24:05,215 --> 00:24:06,801 He has three brothers, 381 00:24:06,836 --> 00:24:08,181 but he doesn't like two of them. 382 00:24:08,215 --> 00:24:09,939 The one he does like, Jimmie Kiritsis, 383 00:24:09,974 --> 00:24:12,732 was called to his brother by helicopter from Brown County. 384 00:24:12,767 --> 00:24:15,939 He, Tony Kiritsis has rejected any attempts 385 00:24:15,974 --> 00:24:18,698 for anybody to get near the apartment to talk with him. 386 00:24:18,732 --> 00:24:21,318 The situation is, he says he's not insane, 387 00:24:21,353 --> 00:24:24,146 he knows what he's doing. 388 00:24:24,181 --> 00:24:25,318 Good, Josh, thank you. 389 00:24:25,353 --> 00:24:27,008 And, of course, Josh is on the scene 390 00:24:27,043 --> 00:24:29,767 and any moment anything develops there we'll be on the air. 391 00:24:29,801 --> 00:24:31,870 It was very obvious from those early 392 00:24:31,905 --> 00:24:33,491 conversations that we were dealing 393 00:24:33,525 --> 00:24:36,250 with somebody who is very, very sick 394 00:24:36,284 --> 00:24:39,043 and was capable of being violent. 395 00:24:43,250 --> 00:24:45,353 I'm going to mention the evacuation. 396 00:24:45,387 --> 00:24:46,629 Beg pardon? 397 00:24:46,663 --> 00:24:48,284 I'm going to mention the evacuation. 398 00:24:48,318 --> 00:24:49,629 Any reason to? 399 00:24:51,250 --> 00:24:53,836 To give us some way to get into it. 400 00:24:53,870 --> 00:24:55,284 Do your own thing, but uh... 401 00:24:55,318 --> 00:24:57,008 Is there any reason not to do it? 402 00:24:57,043 --> 00:24:58,284 Hell, I don't know. 403 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:00,801 If there's any reason not to. 404 00:25:00,836 --> 00:25:03,974 I've never done this before. 405 00:25:04,008 --> 00:25:05,594 Howard, the gunman, Mr. Kiritsis 406 00:25:05,629 --> 00:25:07,043 and the mortgage executive, Mr. Hall, 407 00:25:07,077 --> 00:25:08,698 are still in the third floor apartment. 408 00:25:08,732 --> 00:25:10,836 Nothing much has changed, except that about 500 409 00:25:10,870 --> 00:25:12,939 people are being evacuated from these apartments. 410 00:25:12,974 --> 00:25:14,318 They're going to be spending the night 411 00:25:14,353 --> 00:25:16,077 at various Indianapolis area motels. 412 00:25:16,112 --> 00:25:18,525 Howard, we understand the gunman is watching channel six. 413 00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:20,525 He's made a request and here to fulfill it we 414 00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:23,250 have Deputy Marion County Prosecutor, George Martz. 415 00:25:23,284 --> 00:25:25,870 Tony, as you know, I've talked to you on the telephone. 416 00:25:25,905 --> 00:25:28,284 You've made certain specific demands 417 00:25:28,318 --> 00:25:32,387 and in attempting to comply with these demands 418 00:25:32,422 --> 00:25:34,801 I have requested a personal friend of yours, 419 00:25:34,836 --> 00:25:38,629 Mr. Cliff Chapman, to read a statement to you 420 00:25:38,663 --> 00:25:42,594 on behalf of Meridian Mortgage and Hall-Hottel. 421 00:25:44,112 --> 00:25:46,146 This statement I am reading has been 422 00:25:46,181 --> 00:25:49,043 authorized by Mr. M.L. Hall, the Chairman 423 00:25:49,077 --> 00:25:51,560 of the Board of Meridian Mortgage and Hall-Hottel. 424 00:25:51,594 --> 00:25:54,422 This is a public apology to Anthony Kiritsis 425 00:25:54,456 --> 00:25:57,422 for all wrongs Meridian Mortgage or Hall-Hottel 426 00:25:57,456 --> 00:26:02,146 have committed in respect to Mr. Kiritsis, thank you. 427 00:26:02,181 --> 00:26:03,905 That was a statement from Cliff Chapman 428 00:26:03,939 --> 00:26:05,250 of the mortgage company. Paul, we're not allowed to 429 00:26:05,284 --> 00:26:06,663 ask Mr. Chapman any questions. 430 00:26:06,698 --> 00:26:08,215 That was one of several demands made 431 00:26:08,250 --> 00:26:10,146 by the gunman Mr. Kiritsis. He is an employee of the-- 432 00:26:10,181 --> 00:26:12,284 This has been a special report 433 00:26:12,318 --> 00:26:13,525 from Eyewitness News Center. 434 00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:14,801 Sorry, there was a little confusion 435 00:26:14,836 --> 00:26:16,594 there and noise in the background, 436 00:26:16,629 --> 00:26:18,629 but Kiritsis was angry, apparently over 437 00:26:18,663 --> 00:26:21,732 the mortgage loan arrangement with Mr. Hall's company. 438 00:26:21,767 --> 00:26:24,112 He demanded an apology, demanded that 439 00:26:24,146 --> 00:26:26,353 any financial remuneration that was going 440 00:26:26,387 --> 00:26:28,560 to come because of penalties, because of 441 00:26:28,594 --> 00:26:31,181 what had been done, be paid by the company. 442 00:26:31,215 --> 00:26:33,077 His demands were met, he asked that 443 00:26:33,112 --> 00:26:35,560 it be on Channel Six and on WIBC. 444 00:26:35,594 --> 00:26:38,043 And that is what we know at this date. 445 00:26:38,077 --> 00:26:39,560 Hank, are you still out there? 446 00:26:39,594 --> 00:26:41,077 Yes, I'm here. 447 00:26:41,112 --> 00:26:43,422 Are there any other demands that you know of? 448 00:26:43,456 --> 00:26:46,043 There apparently were some other demands. 449 00:26:46,077 --> 00:26:50,250 Hold on a second, I'll find out exactly what they are. 450 00:26:52,284 --> 00:26:56,146 No arrest, no psychiatric treatment. 451 00:26:56,181 --> 00:26:58,318 The admission of guilt by the people, 452 00:26:58,353 --> 00:27:01,525 which he has now received, as well as 453 00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:03,387 appropriate damages, which again, 454 00:27:03,422 --> 00:27:05,525 were promised in the statement here this evening. 455 00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:07,698 As to whether it will ensure Mr. Hall's release, 456 00:27:07,732 --> 00:27:09,112 that we'll have to wait and see. 457 00:27:09,146 --> 00:27:10,491 So that's what we've been doing 458 00:27:10,525 --> 00:27:12,491 as we've been doing all day, just waiting. 459 00:27:12,525 --> 00:27:15,353 Thank you, both of you, Hank and Dennis. 460 00:27:15,387 --> 00:27:17,146 We've brought you this live report 461 00:27:17,181 --> 00:27:18,870 and the statement that was made 462 00:27:18,905 --> 00:27:20,491 because we have been requested to 463 00:27:20,525 --> 00:27:21,974 do so by the police department. 464 00:27:22,008 --> 00:27:24,077 We believe in a case like this it is important 465 00:27:24,112 --> 00:27:26,250 that we cooperate and I'm sure you'd agree, too. 466 00:27:26,284 --> 00:27:28,422 We'll now return you to our regular programming. 467 00:27:28,456 --> 00:27:30,146 We will keep you in touch of any 468 00:27:30,181 --> 00:27:32,387 other developments, goodnight. 469 00:27:32,422 --> 00:27:34,663 This has been a special report 470 00:27:34,698 --> 00:27:37,043 from Eyewitness News Center. 471 00:27:43,353 --> 00:27:45,560 Fred Heckman was the major domo 472 00:27:45,594 --> 00:27:48,974 here on news radio at that time, WIBC. 473 00:27:49,008 --> 00:27:51,525 He was well respected and he was like 474 00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:54,250 a Walter Cronkite here in radio. 475 00:31:50,181 --> 00:31:51,008 ♪ WIBC 476 00:31:52,836 --> 00:31:54,836 And Fred said that at some point, 477 00:31:54,870 --> 00:31:57,146 Jim Hillyard, who was our program director, 478 00:31:57,181 --> 00:31:59,594 called him into the office because they 479 00:31:59,629 --> 00:32:01,905 were all live on the radio and said, 480 00:32:01,939 --> 00:32:05,077 "Fred, what are we going to do about all those fucks?" 481 00:32:05,112 --> 00:32:07,663 Yes, I can, Jan, and we have been here all night. 482 00:32:07,698 --> 00:32:09,836 At the beginning of the night and right up until 483 00:32:09,870 --> 00:32:11,801 just a few minutes ago there's been kind of 484 00:32:11,836 --> 00:32:14,146 an uneasy stillness around the apartment complex. 485 00:32:14,181 --> 00:32:15,560 Now, in the last few minutes, 486 00:32:15,594 --> 00:32:17,112 things have become pretty tense. 487 00:32:17,146 --> 00:32:20,387 I'm standing here now with Jimmie Kiritsis. 488 00:32:20,422 --> 00:32:24,250 He's not a desperado like he's being painted up to be. 489 00:32:24,284 --> 00:32:25,663 He's not a thief. 490 00:32:26,870 --> 00:32:28,422 He never asked for a five million dollar 491 00:32:28,456 --> 00:32:29,974 ransom like it was reported. 492 00:32:30,008 --> 00:32:32,663 He never held my sister, three years ago or last October, 493 00:32:32,698 --> 00:32:35,456 or whenever it was, they said it was, for $50,000 dollars. 494 00:32:35,491 --> 00:32:37,560 Them statements are untrue. 495 00:32:37,594 --> 00:32:40,732 And naturally, he's quite concerned 496 00:32:40,767 --> 00:32:43,663 with the profile that's been painted of him. 497 00:32:43,698 --> 00:32:45,801 I would like to resolve it if everybody's 498 00:32:45,836 --> 00:32:47,594 willing and everything goes well, 499 00:32:47,629 --> 00:32:49,353 maybe we can resolve it this morning. 500 00:32:49,387 --> 00:32:50,663 Okay. 501 00:32:50,698 --> 00:32:52,456 He started to make a number of legal claims 502 00:32:52,491 --> 00:32:54,422 about how he had been cheated and how 503 00:32:54,456 --> 00:32:56,284 he had these legal claims against 504 00:32:56,318 --> 00:32:58,008 the Meridian Mortgage company. 505 00:32:58,043 --> 00:33:01,146 And also one of his demands that they finally were 506 00:33:01,181 --> 00:33:04,146 able to get was that he was not to be prosecuted. 507 00:33:04,181 --> 00:33:06,043 He called it an immunity agreement. 508 00:33:06,077 --> 00:33:07,594 The local authorities said well, 509 00:33:07,629 --> 00:33:09,801 maybe we ought to get some lawyers involved. 510 00:33:09,836 --> 00:33:12,284 At mid-afternoon, one of Kiritsis attorneys, 511 00:33:12,318 --> 00:33:14,801 John Ruckelshaus, came out to the apartment complex 512 00:33:14,836 --> 00:33:16,456 but would say nothing about his decision. 513 00:33:16,491 --> 00:33:18,560 I got a call from Chief Gallagher and says, 514 00:33:18,594 --> 00:33:21,353 Jack, Tony wants you here as his lawyer. 515 00:33:21,387 --> 00:33:23,698 Well, you know, like when Harry Truman 516 00:33:23,732 --> 00:33:26,008 sent me a telegram and got me in the Army 517 00:33:26,043 --> 00:33:28,008 and I said yes, so out I went. 518 00:33:28,043 --> 00:33:30,767 Have you examined the immunity offer yet? 519 00:33:30,801 --> 00:33:32,043 We don't know yet. 520 00:33:32,077 --> 00:33:33,560 We're just out here and we're going in. 521 00:33:33,594 --> 00:33:35,077 That's all I can say. 522 00:33:35,112 --> 00:33:38,939 They both were brought in, basically as lawyers for him. 523 00:33:38,974 --> 00:33:40,594 They were trying to defuse the 524 00:33:40,629 --> 00:33:44,215 situation as much as everybody else. 525 00:33:44,250 --> 00:33:48,387 But at the same time protecting their client's interests. 526 00:34:23,801 --> 00:34:25,250 Considered, no. 527 00:34:25,284 --> 00:34:26,698 Have there been any additional demands? 528 00:34:26,732 --> 00:34:28,215 No additional demands. 529 00:34:28,250 --> 00:34:30,284 What about the problem with the immunity? 530 00:34:30,318 --> 00:34:31,801 Have you made up your mind whether 531 00:34:31,836 --> 00:34:33,250 you're going to give it to him or not? 532 00:34:33,284 --> 00:34:36,008 This is a problem that will have to be resolved 533 00:34:36,043 --> 00:34:38,318 by the Marion County Prosecutor's office. 534 00:34:38,353 --> 00:34:40,215 Well, what are they going to do? 535 00:34:40,250 --> 00:34:41,836 I mean, is there any indication they're going 536 00:34:41,870 --> 00:34:43,560 to reject it or approve it, or what? 537 00:34:43,594 --> 00:34:45,284 Immunity has been discussed a 538 00:34:45,318 --> 00:34:46,905 number of times in the conversation. 539 00:34:46,939 --> 00:34:51,387 However, there's been no resolution of the question. 540 00:34:51,422 --> 00:34:53,318 Basically, then, we're at the same 541 00:34:53,353 --> 00:34:55,008 point we have been for the past 30 hours. 542 00:34:55,043 --> 00:34:57,250 That's, he's calling the shots and we're just waiting. 543 00:34:57,284 --> 00:34:59,870 That would be a pretty fair assessment, yes. 544 00:34:59,905 --> 00:35:01,905 Apparently, Lou, within the last 25 545 00:35:01,939 --> 00:35:04,836 or 30 minutes the situation has deteriorated some. 546 00:35:04,870 --> 00:35:06,939 To what extent, exactly, we don't know, 547 00:35:06,974 --> 00:35:08,629 although there has been a good deal 548 00:35:08,663 --> 00:35:10,215 of yelling and screaming going on 549 00:35:10,250 --> 00:35:13,456 over the telephone and through the door. 550 00:35:13,491 --> 00:35:15,801 It became apparent to us during the course 551 00:35:15,836 --> 00:35:19,525 of this event that Tony Kiritsis's real window 552 00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:22,939 on what was occurring was WIBC radio. 553 00:35:22,974 --> 00:35:25,525 He was in contact with Fred. 554 00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:28,146 Fred was back in contact with him, 555 00:35:28,181 --> 00:35:30,353 but he was also listening. 556 00:35:30,387 --> 00:35:32,456 The Army bomb squad that's here 557 00:35:32,491 --> 00:35:35,801 has begun to try and think of ways to somehow 558 00:35:35,836 --> 00:35:38,974 get in without setting off the explosives. 559 00:35:39,008 --> 00:35:41,767 We're told unofficially, they could get in without 560 00:35:41,801 --> 00:35:45,801 setting them off if Kiritsis were incapacitated. 561 00:35:47,043 --> 00:35:49,560 That particular moment when the report went 562 00:35:49,594 --> 00:35:51,870 that the S.W.A.T. team was prepared to move, 563 00:35:51,905 --> 00:35:54,732 it became frighteningly clear what 564 00:35:55,698 --> 00:35:57,560 kind of implication there was to 565 00:35:57,594 --> 00:36:00,870 this kind of live broadcast journalism. 566 00:38:16,284 --> 00:38:19,250 Paul, the situation right now is actually rather tense. 567 00:38:19,284 --> 00:38:21,974 Within the past 20 minutes Tony Kiritsis 568 00:38:22,008 --> 00:38:25,250 gave an order that everyone get out of the building. 569 00:38:25,284 --> 00:38:27,629 There, of course, have been police in the building 570 00:38:27,663 --> 00:38:29,594 as well as some friends and relatives 571 00:38:29,629 --> 00:38:31,353 of Tony who have been talking with him. 572 00:38:31,387 --> 00:38:33,422 He gave an order to get out of the building. 573 00:38:33,456 --> 00:38:35,974 You don't want to say anything to set the guy off. 574 00:38:36,008 --> 00:38:38,732 And maybe what you're saying doesn't 575 00:38:38,767 --> 00:38:41,663 appear to be incendiary, but it is. 576 00:39:04,525 --> 00:39:06,663 So Fred was kind of thrust into 577 00:39:06,698 --> 00:39:09,146 the position as a negotiator. 578 00:39:18,801 --> 00:39:19,594 Do it. 579 00:39:19,629 --> 00:39:21,146 Okay. 580 00:39:21,181 --> 00:39:22,456 We're not live, just go ahead and do the interview. 581 00:39:22,491 --> 00:39:23,629 Okay, fine, fine. 582 00:39:23,663 --> 00:39:25,284 Okay, they're setting up a negotiating 583 00:39:25,318 --> 00:39:27,146 team inside this van in back of us. 584 00:39:27,181 --> 00:39:29,594 How effective do you think that will be? 585 00:39:29,629 --> 00:39:33,456 Well, I think at this time we have to try almost anything. 586 00:39:33,491 --> 00:39:36,284 Tony is coherent enough to reason with somebody 587 00:39:36,318 --> 00:39:39,112 and his attorney is talking on his behalf. 588 00:39:39,146 --> 00:39:41,974 And I think it will be productive. 589 00:39:47,663 --> 00:39:51,043 And then the FBI sent in this hostage 590 00:39:51,077 --> 00:39:56,008 negotiator psychologist who had a heck of a reputation. 591 00:39:56,043 --> 00:39:59,732 I mean, he had a countrywide reputation on these things. 592 00:39:59,767 --> 00:40:02,284 And he, of course, was trying to size Tony up 593 00:40:02,318 --> 00:40:06,456 as to how to handle him and how to direct questions to him, 594 00:40:07,905 --> 00:40:10,456 don't get him excited and all this kind of stuff. 595 00:40:10,491 --> 00:40:12,939 And he really knew what he was doing. 596 00:40:12,974 --> 00:40:17,491 I had a fella in class and it was Mr. Gallagher. 597 00:40:17,525 --> 00:40:20,905 He got on the phone to the director of the FBI 598 00:40:20,939 --> 00:40:22,732 and asked if I could be sent out 599 00:40:22,767 --> 00:40:25,767 there to assist them in negotiating. 600 00:40:26,767 --> 00:40:28,387 He was the first person that 601 00:40:28,422 --> 00:40:30,077 described himself as a profiler 602 00:40:30,112 --> 00:40:32,181 and I'd never even heard the term before. 603 00:40:32,215 --> 00:40:35,284 But he said that he could, by looking at 604 00:40:35,318 --> 00:40:39,146 how Mr. Kiritsis had built his gun and how he dressed, 605 00:40:39,181 --> 00:40:43,353 he pretty much had Tony's mental side pegged. 606 00:40:43,387 --> 00:40:46,491 He's the one that then told us certain things to do 607 00:40:46,525 --> 00:40:49,905 and certain things not to do in dealing with him. 608 00:40:49,939 --> 00:40:52,629 And in formulating our approach of basically 609 00:40:52,663 --> 00:40:55,974 conceding to Tony, that was all based upon 610 00:40:56,008 --> 00:40:59,905 the psychology of Mr. Kiritsis that Patrick came up with. 611 00:40:59,939 --> 00:41:02,318 He said that a person with this personality type 612 00:41:02,353 --> 00:41:04,422 needs to be in control of the situation. 613 00:41:04,456 --> 00:41:07,422 And anytime that you try to take that back, 614 00:41:07,456 --> 00:41:09,560 then we're going to have a situation 615 00:41:09,594 --> 00:41:11,491 that becomes very, very dangerous. 616 00:41:11,525 --> 00:41:14,353 In Indianapolis a man named Anthony Kiritsis 617 00:41:14,387 --> 00:41:17,112 is still holding a hostage, a real estate executive. 618 00:41:17,146 --> 00:41:18,767 The drama is in its second day 619 00:41:18,801 --> 00:41:21,491 and our man, Mike Jackson, is there. 620 00:41:21,525 --> 00:41:23,767 What kind of a man is Anthony Kiritsis? 621 00:41:23,801 --> 00:41:25,698 Friends of his who have come out to 622 00:41:25,732 --> 00:41:27,629 the apartment complex to dissuade him 623 00:41:27,663 --> 00:41:29,422 from doing anything rash say he is 624 00:41:29,456 --> 00:41:32,353 an emotional man, a man prone to anger. 625 00:41:32,387 --> 00:41:35,836 Police say he has a record, mainly for beating people up. 626 00:41:35,870 --> 00:41:38,353 One policeman, who didn't want to be identified, 627 00:41:38,387 --> 00:41:40,456 a man who said he grew up with Kiritsis, 628 00:41:40,491 --> 00:41:43,491 says he is a good friend and a bad enemy. 629 00:41:43,525 --> 00:41:46,008 He had purchased this 17 acres of land 630 00:41:46,043 --> 00:41:48,077 and cleared many of the trees himself, 631 00:41:48,112 --> 00:41:49,836 hoping to start a shopping center. 632 00:41:49,870 --> 00:41:51,767 He said he had some commitments from 633 00:41:51,801 --> 00:41:53,422 a grocery store chain offering about 634 00:41:53,456 --> 00:41:55,422 three million dollars to start a center. 635 00:41:55,456 --> 00:41:57,250 Then he says the mortgage company 636 00:41:57,284 --> 00:41:58,939 moved in and lured the prospective 637 00:41:58,974 --> 00:42:00,801 clients away to other properties. 638 00:42:00,836 --> 00:42:02,525 One of Kiritsis' demands was that 639 00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:05,801 the company apologize for that and it did. 640 00:42:05,836 --> 00:42:07,767 Today, Kiritsis said in a radio station 641 00:42:07,801 --> 00:42:09,870 telephone interview he does not believe 642 00:42:09,905 --> 00:42:12,456 the company's apology and intends to go free. 643 00:42:12,491 --> 00:42:14,594 Authorities say their only hope is to keep 644 00:42:14,629 --> 00:42:16,801 Kiritsis talking, so his family and friends 645 00:42:16,836 --> 00:42:19,353 are doing that through the door of his apartment. 646 00:42:19,387 --> 00:42:20,974 They are convinced that if the 647 00:42:21,008 --> 00:42:23,456 talking stops people will die. 648 00:42:23,491 --> 00:42:27,008 Mike Jackson, NBC News, Indianapolis. 649 00:42:34,215 --> 00:42:36,284 Kevin, it may well be that Fred 650 00:42:36,318 --> 00:42:39,732 has become perhaps involved in negotiations. 651 00:42:39,767 --> 00:42:42,077 He merely got a phone call from the FBI, 652 00:42:42,112 --> 00:42:44,008 they asked him to come out as quickly 653 00:42:44,043 --> 00:42:46,560 as possible and he has done so. 654 00:42:46,594 --> 00:42:49,250 We were able to sit down with Fred and tell Fred, 655 00:42:49,284 --> 00:42:54,043 hey, make upbeat comments, get him pepped up again. 656 00:42:54,077 --> 00:42:58,250 And he would do it and all of a sudden Kiritsis responded. 657 00:44:57,974 --> 00:45:00,491 They could understand a mood and understand 658 00:45:00,525 --> 00:45:04,181 a mood well enough to sort of utilize where it is 659 00:45:04,215 --> 00:45:08,870 in an up or a down cycle to control and manipulate. 660 00:45:08,905 --> 00:45:10,525 I thought that was fascinating. 661 00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:13,250 Kiritsis was pretty easy to chart. 662 00:45:13,284 --> 00:45:15,767 But what you had to be very careful, 663 00:45:15,801 --> 00:45:18,594 when he was down in that low level 664 00:45:18,629 --> 00:45:22,456 that's the area where despair sets in and they 665 00:45:23,594 --> 00:45:27,077 make judgments like I've nothing to live for, 666 00:45:28,215 --> 00:45:30,732 so I might as well kill this SOB. 667 00:45:33,905 --> 00:45:36,008 There have been some published reports 668 00:45:36,043 --> 00:45:38,387 this afternoon quoting prosecutor James Kelly, 669 00:45:38,422 --> 00:45:40,974 who has been out of town during this incident, 670 00:45:41,008 --> 00:45:43,146 he's in Los Angeles attending a conference, 671 00:45:43,181 --> 00:45:45,181 quoting Kelly as saying that if immunity 672 00:45:45,215 --> 00:45:47,491 from arrest is what's needed to prevent death 673 00:45:47,525 --> 00:45:51,353 or prevent injury, he is prepared to grant it. 674 00:45:54,318 --> 00:45:56,215 Good evening, I'm in a room near 675 00:45:56,250 --> 00:45:58,491 the police headquarters outside the apartment 676 00:45:58,525 --> 00:46:01,077 of Tony Kiritsis where he's holding Dick Hall hostage. 677 00:46:01,112 --> 00:46:02,732 We've been requested airtime by 678 00:46:02,767 --> 00:46:05,491 the Marion County Public Prosecutor's office 679 00:46:05,525 --> 00:46:07,146 in order to give an address by 680 00:46:07,181 --> 00:46:09,318 Deputy County Prosecutor George Martz, 681 00:46:09,353 --> 00:46:12,008 an address apparently aimed at Tony Kiritsis himself. 682 00:46:12,043 --> 00:46:13,422 Now, here's Mr. Martz. 683 00:46:13,456 --> 00:46:17,284 Thank you, at this time I would like to read 684 00:46:17,318 --> 00:46:21,043 a letter from the office of the prosecuting attorney 685 00:46:21,077 --> 00:46:24,560 of Marion County, James F. Kelly, prosecutor. 686 00:46:24,594 --> 00:46:27,939 This document is dated February 9, 1977. 687 00:46:29,422 --> 00:46:31,077 It's entitled letter of immunity 688 00:46:31,112 --> 00:46:34,491 granted to Anthony George Kiritsis. 689 00:46:34,525 --> 00:46:36,870 Mr. Anthony George Kiritsis, 690 00:46:38,181 --> 00:46:41,594 the Marion County prosecutor, James F. Kelly, 691 00:46:41,629 --> 00:46:44,732 does hereby confer and grant to 692 00:46:44,767 --> 00:46:49,560 Anthony George Kiritsis immunity from prosecution 693 00:46:49,594 --> 00:46:52,939 with reference to the abduction of Richard Hall 694 00:46:52,974 --> 00:46:56,836 and all subsequent acts done or alleged 695 00:46:56,870 --> 00:46:58,836 to have been done or caused by 696 00:46:58,870 --> 00:47:01,456 the said Anthony George Kiritsis. 697 00:47:01,491 --> 00:47:04,870 This document is signed James F. Kelly, 698 00:47:04,905 --> 00:47:07,560 authorized by David L. Rimstidt. 699 00:47:09,905 --> 00:47:12,250 Mr. Kelly has been contacted by 700 00:47:12,284 --> 00:47:14,767 myself on two occasions today, 701 00:47:16,353 --> 00:47:19,767 the last time approximately 10 minutes ago. 702 00:47:19,801 --> 00:47:22,801 He is fully aware of this agreement 703 00:47:22,836 --> 00:47:25,215 and you have his assurance that the terms 704 00:47:25,250 --> 00:47:28,905 of this agreement will be strictly enforced. 705 00:47:31,318 --> 00:47:33,629 I know there were some meetings there 706 00:47:33,663 --> 00:47:37,491 where Ruckelshaus confronted Rimstidt after 707 00:47:37,525 --> 00:47:41,353 the immunity tender was made and put him 708 00:47:41,387 --> 00:47:45,318 on the spot and said, "Do you intend to honor this?" 709 00:47:45,353 --> 00:47:48,732 Used some colorful language in that regard. 710 00:47:48,767 --> 00:47:51,284 And, as he described, Rimstidt making 711 00:47:51,318 --> 00:47:54,318 some squirms and turns and said yes. 712 00:47:56,250 --> 00:47:58,905 A few moments ago I spoke with Tony's brother, Jimmie, 713 00:47:58,939 --> 00:48:02,318 to see how he feels about the offer of immunity. 714 00:48:02,353 --> 00:48:03,939 If you just bear with us maybe 715 00:48:03,974 --> 00:48:05,422 we'll have something, hopefully. 716 00:48:05,456 --> 00:48:06,836 When was the last time you talked to Tony? 717 00:48:06,870 --> 00:48:08,181 I talked to him this morning. 718 00:48:08,215 --> 00:48:09,215 Is he still calm? 719 00:48:09,250 --> 00:48:10,422 Yes, very calm. 720 00:48:10,456 --> 00:48:11,974 How do you feel about the offer of immunity? 721 00:48:12,008 --> 00:48:13,181 Do you think it's a good one? 722 00:48:13,215 --> 00:48:14,353 Yes, it's a very good one. 723 00:48:14,387 --> 00:48:16,112 Have you recommended it to Tony? 724 00:48:16,146 --> 00:48:17,594 I told him it was a very good one. 725 00:48:17,629 --> 00:48:19,870 I don't recommend it, he can, he's very capable 726 00:48:19,905 --> 00:48:22,456 and very intelligent and he'll make up his own mind. 727 00:48:22,491 --> 00:48:24,456 From your point of view, though, it's a good one? 728 00:48:24,491 --> 00:48:26,870 Yes, it's a, under the circumstance, a very good one. 729 00:48:26,905 --> 00:48:28,422 He may just walk away. 730 00:48:28,456 --> 00:48:30,525 Are you hopeful this thing can wind up today? 731 00:48:30,560 --> 00:48:31,974 Yes. 732 00:48:32,008 --> 00:48:34,284 Let me ask you another question. 733 00:48:34,318 --> 00:48:37,870 If immunity is granted, what effect might this have, 734 00:48:37,905 --> 00:48:40,284 do you think, on people who might be 735 00:48:40,318 --> 00:48:42,318 considering the same course of action? 736 00:48:42,353 --> 00:48:44,008 Some people might consider that this 737 00:48:44,043 --> 00:48:46,250 would encourage them to do this kind of thing. 738 00:48:46,284 --> 00:48:47,767 What do you think? 739 00:48:49,870 --> 00:48:51,594 Well, I think that's a possibility, 740 00:48:51,629 --> 00:48:53,284 but I don't think it has anything to do 741 00:48:53,318 --> 00:48:55,422 with the situation that we're confronted with. 742 00:48:55,456 --> 00:48:56,663 I mean, that possibility. 743 00:48:56,698 --> 00:48:59,181 We had to do what was necessary and it's been 744 00:48:59,215 --> 00:49:01,318 worked out to everyone's satisfaction. 745 00:49:01,353 --> 00:49:03,905 The police agencies were thoroughly consulted, 746 00:49:03,939 --> 00:49:05,801 prosecutor's office worked with them. 747 00:49:05,836 --> 00:49:07,974 And in this particular instance 748 00:49:08,008 --> 00:49:10,043 it was the thing that was done. 749 00:49:10,077 --> 00:49:11,732 Do you think the public would 750 00:49:11,767 --> 00:49:13,801 accept the man who had put a shotgun 751 00:49:13,836 --> 00:49:16,560 to another man's head going free? 752 00:49:19,353 --> 00:49:21,043 Well, there's going to be some 753 00:49:21,077 --> 00:49:22,870 that will object to it, sure. 754 00:49:22,905 --> 00:49:24,801 And there's going to be some that will 755 00:49:24,836 --> 00:49:26,491 think that it was the proper thing to do. 756 00:49:26,525 --> 00:49:30,698 We're going to be second-guessed, but that's part of life. 757 00:49:32,698 --> 00:49:35,043 The big demand has been immunity. 758 00:49:35,077 --> 00:49:37,284 First, the opportunity to voice his complaint 759 00:49:37,318 --> 00:49:39,422 against the mortgage company of which Hall 760 00:49:39,456 --> 00:49:41,974 is an executive, but secondly, the grant of immunity, 761 00:49:42,008 --> 00:49:43,939 that nothing be done to him because 762 00:49:43,974 --> 00:49:45,939 of what Tony Kiritsis has done. 763 00:49:45,974 --> 00:49:49,560 That offer has been offered, that offer has been made 764 00:49:49,594 --> 00:49:52,905 to Tony Kiritsis by the Marion County Prosecutor's office. 765 00:49:52,939 --> 00:49:56,767 And the big question tonight as it was last night, 766 00:49:56,801 --> 00:49:58,801 and as it was this morning, is whether 767 00:49:58,836 --> 00:50:01,146 Tony Kiritsis is going to accept that. 768 00:50:01,181 --> 00:50:03,422 The sun is setting out here, but the story 769 00:50:03,456 --> 00:50:06,353 is certainly far, far from over and so we wait. 770 00:50:11,491 --> 00:50:15,077 And then we have the concept of creating a stage. 771 00:50:15,112 --> 00:50:17,181 That's why we all retreated to the 772 00:50:17,215 --> 00:50:19,146 lobby of that apartment building. 773 00:50:19,181 --> 00:50:23,560 That was meant for him to see on television to suck him out. 774 00:50:23,594 --> 00:50:25,905 We knew that once he saw it he'd say 775 00:50:25,939 --> 00:50:29,077 to himself, that's where I should be. 776 00:50:29,112 --> 00:50:30,767 Right, I talked to him, I bet, 777 00:50:30,801 --> 00:50:33,629 half a dozen times on the phone. 778 00:50:33,663 --> 00:50:37,525 The last of which I called him and said we got the note, 779 00:50:37,560 --> 00:50:40,284 promissory note for five million bucks. 780 00:50:40,318 --> 00:50:42,698 No answer, phone rang, rang, rang 781 00:50:42,732 --> 00:50:44,974 and the next thing I heard somebody said, 782 00:50:45,008 --> 00:50:47,836 "Oh God, here he comes down." 783 00:50:47,870 --> 00:50:50,456 He's coming out, he's coming out! 784 00:51:04,663 --> 00:51:07,077 While you people are watching 785 00:51:07,112 --> 00:51:10,284 on television thank you for taking such a-- 786 00:51:10,318 --> 00:51:12,732 We interrupt our program schedule 787 00:51:12,767 --> 00:51:16,939 to bring you the following special report from ABC News. 788 00:51:17,836 --> 00:51:20,318 Turn the goddamn cameras on! 789 00:51:21,318 --> 00:51:23,491 I'm gonna show you something. 790 00:51:23,525 --> 00:51:26,318 Read that, pal, read it! 791 00:51:26,353 --> 00:51:28,560 Turn the cameras on, all three, hold it! 792 00:51:28,594 --> 00:51:30,560 I want on national television! 793 00:51:30,594 --> 00:51:32,870 I've been called a kidnapper, 794 00:51:32,905 --> 00:51:37,112 an extortionist, a thug and everything else! 795 00:51:37,146 --> 00:51:40,698 I want it on all three national channels! 796 00:51:40,732 --> 00:51:42,801 I've got friends all over the country! 797 00:51:42,836 --> 00:51:43,836 You read it! 798 00:51:45,043 --> 00:51:47,732 And I go through the double doors 799 00:51:47,767 --> 00:51:49,939 and I am struck by what is the most 800 00:51:49,974 --> 00:51:52,594 bizarre scene I've ever seen in my life. 801 00:51:52,629 --> 00:51:57,215 They goddamn near made me blow his goddamn brains out! 802 00:51:57,250 --> 00:52:00,387 We have these ranking officers and Fred Heckman 803 00:52:00,422 --> 00:52:04,043 standing behind Tony who's holding the gun 804 00:52:04,077 --> 00:52:07,215 to Dick's head and out here in the audience 805 00:52:07,250 --> 00:52:09,387 are all of these cameras and reporters. 806 00:52:09,422 --> 00:52:13,594 And it's as though the oxygen has gone out of the room. 807 00:52:13,629 --> 00:52:15,318 Everybody is on edge. 808 00:52:15,353 --> 00:52:16,905 To as being the illegal-- 809 00:52:16,939 --> 00:52:21,456 Hold it, hold it, I want this goddamn thing understood. 810 00:52:21,491 --> 00:52:22,560 I'll read it! 811 00:52:26,560 --> 00:52:30,284 February 10th, 1977, I want a glass of water! 812 00:52:31,491 --> 00:52:33,043 This statement is being made to try 813 00:52:33,077 --> 00:52:35,939 and state the items that Mr. Kiritsis alludes, 814 00:52:35,974 --> 00:52:37,456 and I don't like that word. 815 00:52:37,491 --> 00:52:40,008 I charged and they've admitted it. 816 00:52:40,043 --> 00:52:42,284 Alludes to as being illegal and 817 00:52:42,318 --> 00:52:45,112 unethical acts of the Hall Group. 818 00:52:51,801 --> 00:52:55,525 This lease negotiation approved the Kiritsis site 819 00:52:55,560 --> 00:52:59,008 and had a definite interest in building there. 820 00:52:59,043 --> 00:53:00,663 Give me a drink, pal. 821 00:53:00,698 --> 00:53:02,146 Give me a drink. 822 00:53:04,387 --> 00:53:05,491 Good enough? 823 00:53:05,525 --> 00:53:06,491 Alright, go easy. 824 00:53:06,525 --> 00:53:08,146 Yeah, and I'm sober friends. 825 00:53:08,181 --> 00:53:12,732 I had six drinks in 1976 and I haven't had any this year. 826 00:53:12,767 --> 00:53:15,284 This was presented to us and was potentially 827 00:53:15,318 --> 00:53:17,284 a good business deal, but we found 828 00:53:17,318 --> 00:53:19,318 it impossible to agree on terms 829 00:53:19,353 --> 00:53:22,077 satisfactory to our best interest. 830 00:53:22,112 --> 00:53:23,284 Their best interest! 831 00:53:23,318 --> 00:53:26,250 I went up there to borrow money to build 832 00:53:26,284 --> 00:53:28,870 a 10,000 foot restaurant that would have grossed 833 00:53:28,905 --> 00:53:31,456 between a million and two million bucks a year and 834 00:53:31,491 --> 00:53:34,043 these motherfuckers shopped it to somebody else! 835 00:53:34,077 --> 00:53:36,525 I had a lessee who guaranteed me 836 00:53:36,560 --> 00:53:39,870 $100,000 dollars a year rent plus 10% over 837 00:53:39,905 --> 00:53:41,974 a million dollars and I could have built 838 00:53:42,008 --> 00:53:44,905 the building for $220,000 bucks and put 839 00:53:44,939 --> 00:53:48,422 $100,000 dollars worth of equipment in it! 840 00:53:49,905 --> 00:53:51,491 Listen to this one. 841 00:53:52,456 --> 00:53:53,974 It's almost funny. 842 00:53:55,456 --> 00:53:56,732 This trooper right here. 843 00:53:56,767 --> 00:53:58,767 Come here, Mark, hell of a good friend of mine. 844 00:53:58,801 --> 00:54:00,629 A lot of friends of mine here seen me, 845 00:54:00,663 --> 00:54:02,905 has seen me about every night for 846 00:54:02,939 --> 00:54:04,801 three or four years out in a couple 847 00:54:04,836 --> 00:54:07,008 of restaurants around here having coffee. 848 00:54:07,043 --> 00:54:09,422 Too goddamn desperate to do anything else. 849 00:54:09,456 --> 00:54:12,043 So goddamn mad, couldn't think good 850 00:54:12,077 --> 00:54:15,456 and he always wondered what was wrong, now he knows. 851 00:54:15,491 --> 00:54:16,284 Right, Mark? 852 00:54:16,318 --> 00:54:17,491 Yes, man. 853 00:54:17,525 --> 00:54:19,284 Hell of a man, good cop, this guy. 854 00:54:19,318 --> 00:54:20,181 Good cop. 855 00:54:21,353 --> 00:54:23,077 His eyes, the eyes of Tony 856 00:54:23,112 --> 00:54:25,146 will occasionally dart around the room, 857 00:54:25,181 --> 00:54:26,939 and if he will, if he sees someone 858 00:54:26,974 --> 00:54:28,905 he recognizes he will acknowledge them 859 00:54:28,939 --> 00:54:31,594 and perhaps have a comment or two about them. 860 00:54:31,629 --> 00:54:34,387 All week he has talked about revenge. 861 00:54:34,422 --> 00:54:37,905 Part of that revenge is being acted out tonight. 862 00:54:37,939 --> 00:54:40,456 And almost an empty and hollow look in the eyes 863 00:54:40,491 --> 00:54:42,974 of Dick Hall as he gazes around the room. 864 00:54:43,008 --> 00:54:45,284 And he will make eye contact with people, 865 00:54:45,318 --> 00:54:47,732 but it's almost as though he is, it's just 866 00:54:47,767 --> 00:54:50,560 a proforma gesture showing very little emotion. 867 00:54:50,594 --> 00:54:52,663 Yeah, I suspect he must believe 868 00:54:52,698 --> 00:54:56,801 that is what he must do because he could trigger 869 00:54:56,836 --> 00:55:00,491 the situation if he should react one way or the other. 870 00:55:00,525 --> 00:55:03,215 This brave young man and his father would have said, 871 00:55:03,250 --> 00:55:05,215 Tony I'll tell you what we're going to do. 872 00:55:05,250 --> 00:55:07,456 Because you're a nice fella and basically, really, 873 00:55:07,491 --> 00:55:09,801 we love you, we wouldn't hurt you for anything, 874 00:55:09,836 --> 00:55:11,767 we'll take the cream, we'll take the front 875 00:55:11,801 --> 00:55:14,112 10 acres there for $130,000 and you can have 876 00:55:14,146 --> 00:55:17,318 the back seven where all the hogs shit. 877 00:55:17,353 --> 00:55:19,663 Mr. M.L. Hall, this gentleman's father 878 00:55:19,698 --> 00:55:22,767 also states that he personally takes 879 00:55:22,801 --> 00:55:26,112 responsibility for these improprieties. 880 00:55:26,146 --> 00:55:29,077 I'm gonna frame that, I'm through. 881 00:55:29,112 --> 00:55:30,801 Where's my attorney? 882 00:55:30,836 --> 00:55:33,491 He had this thing about he wanted everybody to hear 883 00:55:33,525 --> 00:55:36,077 what had been done to him, how he was wronged. 884 00:55:36,112 --> 00:55:39,112 I mean, that was his litany over and over and over again. 885 00:55:39,146 --> 00:55:40,905 Should we keep on with this, what if 886 00:55:40,939 --> 00:55:42,767 he kills this man in front of everybody? 887 00:55:42,801 --> 00:55:44,836 Let alone the language which was not heard 888 00:55:44,870 --> 00:55:46,939 on TV at that time on any channel. 889 00:55:46,974 --> 00:55:48,560 And it was surreal. 890 00:55:49,939 --> 00:55:52,491 I think he wanted to tell his side of the story. 891 00:55:52,525 --> 00:55:55,663 As far as the public knew Kiritsis was a madman. 892 00:55:55,698 --> 00:55:58,318 He was bright enough that he understood that 893 00:55:58,353 --> 00:56:00,594 and saw how he was being portrayed. 894 00:56:00,629 --> 00:56:04,836 And so I think he called Fred to try to get his story out. 895 00:56:04,870 --> 00:56:07,008 If I can get Fred to let me air my side of 896 00:56:07,043 --> 00:56:10,181 the story then maybe people will see my point. 897 00:56:10,215 --> 00:56:11,181 Hi, Fred. 898 00:56:11,215 --> 00:56:12,698 Hello, Tony. 899 00:56:12,732 --> 00:56:13,698 You're gonna be late for work in the morning, pal. 900 00:56:13,732 --> 00:56:15,215 I think I'm gonna sleep late. 901 00:56:15,250 --> 00:56:17,491 I don't know if you can get away with that, can you? 902 00:56:17,525 --> 00:56:19,353 Not really. 903 00:56:19,387 --> 00:56:21,077 I have to, I have to say again 904 00:56:21,112 --> 00:56:23,215 that Mr. Fred Heckman here of WIBC. 905 00:56:23,250 --> 00:56:26,387 Fred Heckman, in my opinion, was a jewel. 906 00:56:26,422 --> 00:56:30,008 He was thrown into a bad situation, 907 00:56:30,043 --> 00:56:32,905 but he was a gentleman through the whole damn thing. 908 00:56:32,939 --> 00:56:35,525 I have some people that might be watching this 909 00:56:35,560 --> 00:56:39,387 in various places and I'm not trying to be funny. 910 00:56:39,422 --> 00:56:41,077 And I never did like notoriety 911 00:56:41,112 --> 00:56:43,491 and I don't like it any better tonight, 912 00:56:43,525 --> 00:56:47,663 but my aunts in Akron, Ohio and my cousins 913 00:56:47,698 --> 00:56:51,387 and some damn good Greek friends in the state of Florida, 914 00:56:51,422 --> 00:56:55,181 and some people I was in the Army with in New England. 915 00:56:55,215 --> 00:56:59,112 And I want them to know that, by God, I was right. 916 00:56:59,146 --> 00:57:01,215 Lee and Lou, Paul Page is back 917 00:57:01,250 --> 00:57:03,284 in the back of the room now and we're going 918 00:57:03,318 --> 00:57:05,008 to try and make some contact with Paul. 919 00:57:05,043 --> 00:57:06,491 Go ahead, Paul. 920 00:57:06,525 --> 00:57:08,905 Tom, we continue to watch in the back of the room. 921 00:57:08,939 --> 00:57:10,629 I'm keeping my voice low because of 922 00:57:10,663 --> 00:57:12,387 the nature of the circumstance here. 923 00:57:12,422 --> 00:57:16,284 We have a man who is very anxiety-prone. 924 00:57:16,318 --> 00:57:18,870 He continues to stand with an automatic shotgun 925 00:57:18,905 --> 00:57:21,318 jammed up against the back of the man's skull. 926 00:57:21,353 --> 00:57:24,870 Tony continues to move from a position 927 00:57:24,905 --> 00:57:28,181 of happiness to one of somewhat depression. 928 00:57:28,215 --> 00:57:31,250 It's a very, very, very dangerous atmosphere at the moment. 929 00:57:31,284 --> 00:57:33,905 If the shotgun fell there's no real change in the room, 930 00:57:33,939 --> 00:57:35,870 it would not only injure his hostage, 931 00:57:35,905 --> 00:57:38,560 it's going to injure an awful lot of people in this room. 932 00:57:38,594 --> 00:57:40,974 We'll continue to watch and we'll report back. 933 00:57:41,008 --> 00:57:45,250 And I also want to apologize to this man's family. 934 00:57:45,284 --> 00:57:49,284 I am sorry I humiliated this man, this way, 935 00:57:49,318 --> 00:57:53,146 even though he must have surely had it coming. 936 00:58:03,732 --> 00:58:05,836 Every once in a while he'd look at Hall 937 00:58:05,870 --> 00:58:07,456 and the back of his head, and boy, 938 00:58:07,491 --> 00:58:09,146 and the look on his face, I thought, 939 00:58:09,181 --> 00:58:10,974 oh God, he's going to pull that trigger. 940 00:58:11,008 --> 00:58:12,974 I went to Gene Gallagher and I said, 941 00:58:13,008 --> 00:58:16,318 Gene, I'm getting a little nervous. 942 00:58:16,353 --> 00:58:18,525 He's almost sounding suicidal. 943 00:58:18,560 --> 00:58:20,974 And Mullaney was standing right next to me 944 00:58:21,008 --> 00:58:23,939 and he said, my God, he's going to shoot him on television. 945 00:58:23,974 --> 00:58:26,181 That was the scariest part, to me. 946 00:58:26,215 --> 00:58:28,801 He would laugh and then he would cry. 947 00:58:30,974 --> 00:58:35,146 Yeah, yeah, you know for a goddamn dummy I lucked out. 948 00:58:39,836 --> 00:58:41,870 I want to take, I'd like to please, 949 00:58:41,905 --> 00:58:45,215 a lot of nice people called me in two or three days 950 00:58:45,250 --> 00:58:47,560 and told me that they were behind me. 951 00:58:47,594 --> 00:58:48,698 We're behind you, Tony. 952 00:58:48,732 --> 00:58:50,077 And I want to thank them. 953 00:58:50,112 --> 00:58:51,456 We're behind you, Tony. 954 00:58:51,491 --> 00:58:53,801 I want to thank my brothers, Jimmie and George 955 00:58:53,836 --> 00:58:56,077 and Mark and John, Johnny there. 956 00:58:56,112 --> 00:58:59,560 I can't think of his last name, Johnny Ferguson. 957 00:59:02,974 --> 00:59:05,629 Billy Cotton and the people that supported me. 958 00:59:05,663 --> 00:59:09,043 And I can tell you, by God, I was in trouble. 959 00:59:09,077 --> 00:59:11,284 I was in a hell of a lot of trouble. 960 00:59:11,318 --> 00:59:13,353 You saw one of these goddamn things off 961 00:59:13,387 --> 00:59:15,663 and kidnap somebody I'm going to tell you something, 962 00:59:15,698 --> 00:59:17,974 I'm sorry, but there ain't much left in that old road. 963 00:59:18,008 --> 00:59:20,422 I said when I started out I figured I'd be on a long, 964 00:59:20,456 --> 00:59:24,629 narrow, one-way dead end road and that's what it was. 965 00:59:29,077 --> 00:59:33,112 Tony was becoming so riled up that Gallagher was going, 966 00:59:33,146 --> 00:59:36,284 okay, this is it, you know, I've got to do something. 967 00:59:36,318 --> 00:59:40,077 Because he's going to blow this guy's head off on live TV. 968 00:59:40,112 --> 00:59:43,491 If they felt that Tony had finally gone 969 00:59:43,525 --> 00:59:45,767 to the point too far that he was going to 970 00:59:45,801 --> 00:59:49,974 eliminate Dick Hall, Tony was going to be taken out. 971 00:59:51,560 --> 00:59:55,043 Chief Gallagher told Josh, when I retire 972 00:59:55,077 --> 00:59:58,250 come talk to me about the plan to kill Tony. 973 00:59:58,284 --> 01:00:01,560 They had talked to a doctor at the hospital and said, 974 01:00:01,594 --> 01:00:04,974 what's the best way to kill Tony instantly? 975 01:00:05,008 --> 01:00:09,181 And he said, put a gun behind his ear and pull the trigger. 976 01:00:11,008 --> 01:00:13,422 My role, if I was given the nod, 977 01:00:13,456 --> 01:00:16,560 was to try to jam the shotgun itself with 978 01:00:16,594 --> 01:00:19,284 the cylinder on the side where you eject shells. 979 01:00:19,318 --> 01:00:21,284 And if you notice, there was a sleeve 980 01:00:21,318 --> 01:00:23,284 across that cylinder part of that gun. 981 01:00:23,318 --> 01:00:25,284 It would have been almost impossible 982 01:00:25,318 --> 01:00:28,732 for me to grab it and jam it at the time. 983 01:00:30,077 --> 01:00:32,525 Chief Gallagher, he had a gun in one pocket 984 01:00:32,560 --> 01:00:34,284 and a handkerchief in the other. 985 01:00:34,318 --> 01:00:37,077 When he pulled the handkerchief out that meant 986 01:00:37,112 --> 01:00:39,594 that he was going to shoot and kill Tony. 987 01:00:39,629 --> 01:00:42,387 He said three times, he reached into his pocket 988 01:00:42,422 --> 01:00:46,284 for the handkerchief during the press conference. 989 01:00:46,318 --> 01:00:49,043 And he said three times he put it back. 990 01:00:49,077 --> 01:00:51,318 This is Chief Gallagher of the Indianapolis 991 01:00:51,353 --> 01:00:53,974 Police Department and also a damn fine man 992 01:00:54,008 --> 01:00:58,008 and this man was fair with me, damn fair with me. 993 01:00:58,043 --> 01:01:00,250 Well, I'm gonna tell you, this man is safe. 994 01:01:00,284 --> 01:01:02,456 The only thing I wanted at the time was for 995 01:01:02,491 --> 01:01:04,698 this to end without anybody getting hurt. 996 01:01:04,732 --> 01:01:07,284 Had I went for the shotgun, made a mistake, 997 01:01:07,318 --> 01:01:10,560 Dick Hall would have been dead, Tony Kiritsis been dead. 998 01:01:10,594 --> 01:01:12,939 Tony, sorry to interrupt, we're going to-- 999 01:01:12,974 --> 01:01:14,525 Hi, come here, you're awful bashful. 1000 01:01:14,560 --> 01:01:15,629 I'm the shy one. 1001 01:01:15,663 --> 01:01:17,181 Would you like to smile for us? 1002 01:01:17,215 --> 01:01:18,456 For you, I will. 1003 01:01:18,491 --> 01:01:20,318 I shaved before I came over here and you never 1004 01:01:20,353 --> 01:01:22,215 even came out, get that goddamn thing done. 1005 01:01:22,250 --> 01:01:23,870 We're going right now, Tony. 1006 01:01:23,905 --> 01:01:25,353 If you wasn't a good attorney 1007 01:01:25,387 --> 01:01:27,146 I don't know what I'd do without you. 1008 01:01:27,181 --> 01:01:29,043 I did not, was not aware at the time 1009 01:01:29,077 --> 01:01:31,077 that there was negotiations in the back 1010 01:01:31,112 --> 01:01:34,594 to bring this out to Tony that he had won. 1011 01:01:36,456 --> 01:01:38,318 Waiting on that settlement. Waiting on damn attorneys. 1012 01:01:38,353 --> 01:01:42,525 Waiting on that five million dollars that I just stole. 1013 01:01:43,353 --> 01:01:44,560 Pardon me? 1014 01:01:44,594 --> 01:01:45,836 Give Tony some more room in here. 1015 01:01:45,870 --> 01:01:46,767 We ought to have some more water. 1016 01:01:46,801 --> 01:01:47,594 I need a little and I-- 1017 01:01:47,629 --> 01:01:48,870 Come here, babe. 1018 01:01:48,905 --> 01:01:49,698 Here, Dickie. I'm on the job. 1019 01:01:49,732 --> 01:01:50,560 Give it to Dick. 1020 01:01:50,594 --> 01:01:51,318 Give Dick, here Dick. 1021 01:01:51,353 --> 01:01:52,215 Got it? 1022 01:01:54,491 --> 01:01:56,181 George, if you don't get out from 1023 01:01:56,215 --> 01:01:57,284 in front of them goddamn cameras-- 1024 01:01:57,318 --> 01:01:58,594 Oh, I'm sorry. 1025 01:01:58,629 --> 01:01:59,870 You're not going to be in any more of my shows. 1026 01:01:59,905 --> 01:02:00,801 I'm upstaging you. You know that? 1027 01:02:00,836 --> 01:02:02,905 I'm sorry, sorry, sorry. 1028 01:02:02,939 --> 01:02:05,870 You're doing a single, my apologies. 1029 01:02:09,525 --> 01:02:11,181 Mark, pull my pants up. 1030 01:02:11,215 --> 01:02:14,732 What, what are you? 1031 01:02:14,767 --> 01:02:16,215 Those bastards did that. 1032 01:02:16,250 --> 01:02:17,836 If you had a little bit of butt in there, 1033 01:02:17,870 --> 01:02:19,974 you wouldn't have to have pulled them up. 1034 01:02:20,008 --> 01:02:22,250 That's it, I've had it. 1035 01:02:22,284 --> 01:02:24,422 I'm sorry, it was my turn. 1036 01:02:25,594 --> 01:02:28,491 It was my turn to bat, you believe that. 1037 01:02:28,525 --> 01:02:30,905 Tony, you want to go back and winter in until Billy gets-- 1038 01:02:30,939 --> 01:02:32,112 Yeah, let's get out of here. 1039 01:02:32,146 --> 01:02:32,974 Where's it cool? 1040 01:02:33,008 --> 01:02:34,112 Where's Frank at? 1041 01:02:34,146 --> 01:02:35,284 Where's it cool? 1042 01:02:35,318 --> 01:02:37,250 I want to thank, I want to thank the people 1043 01:02:37,284 --> 01:02:39,560 that supported me, I want to thank the people 1044 01:02:39,594 --> 01:02:42,318 that were fair, I'm sorry about my language 1045 01:02:42,353 --> 01:02:44,663 and I'm sorry that this thing had to happen. 1046 01:02:44,698 --> 01:02:45,663 Tony, follow me. 1047 01:02:45,698 --> 01:02:46,491 Okay. 1048 01:02:46,525 --> 01:02:47,422 Follow John, Tone. 1049 01:02:47,456 --> 01:02:49,663 We're going with you. 1050 01:02:49,698 --> 01:02:51,698 We're talking, we're talking, we're talking, 1051 01:02:51,732 --> 01:02:53,387 this news conference is going along. 1052 01:02:53,422 --> 01:02:55,594 It's being broadcast live and all of a sudden 1053 01:02:55,629 --> 01:02:58,353 the focus of the news conference and his hostage 1054 01:02:58,387 --> 01:03:00,732 move out into this other room and the media's 1055 01:03:00,767 --> 01:03:02,939 kind of standing there like, what's going on, 1056 01:03:02,974 --> 01:03:04,836 what's going on, what do we do? 1057 01:03:09,422 --> 01:03:11,456 Okay, so they are out of sight. 1058 01:03:11,491 --> 01:03:14,836 They are at the apartment complex still. 1059 01:04:01,318 --> 01:04:03,456 So then at the end it was just the payday, 1060 01:04:03,491 --> 01:04:05,491 was the five million dollar promissory 1061 01:04:05,525 --> 01:04:07,732 note that we were willing to give. 1062 01:04:07,767 --> 01:04:10,974 And that was to be done when he released 1063 01:04:11,008 --> 01:04:12,974 the hostage we would sign the note 1064 01:04:13,008 --> 01:04:16,250 and that would be the end of the story. 1065 01:04:55,077 --> 01:04:58,318 Okay, Paul, I'm presently outside the building 1066 01:04:58,353 --> 01:05:01,767 where the really amazing news conference, 1067 01:05:01,801 --> 01:05:04,008 of sorts, took place moments ago. 1068 01:05:04,043 --> 01:05:06,698 What happened was that that ended and Tony 1069 01:05:06,732 --> 01:05:10,491 and Dick Hall, again still attached by the gun, 1070 01:05:10,525 --> 01:05:12,974 moved down a hallway in that building. 1071 01:05:13,008 --> 01:05:15,698 At that point the police ordered all 1072 01:05:15,732 --> 01:05:18,215 news personnel out of the building. 1073 01:05:18,250 --> 01:05:21,181 It's nice and cool in here. 1074 01:05:26,767 --> 01:05:30,698 Harry, Tony wants to talk to you. 1075 01:06:23,560 --> 01:06:25,353 Tony, there's people out there, 1076 01:06:25,387 --> 01:06:27,870 lots of people out there. 1077 01:06:31,456 --> 01:06:33,284 Go on live, go on live. 1078 01:06:33,318 --> 01:06:36,663 Stay there, there's nothing we can do. 1079 01:06:36,698 --> 01:06:39,525 Go on live, go to him, go to him! 1080 01:06:39,560 --> 01:06:41,422 Get him to go to him. 1081 01:06:49,836 --> 01:06:52,525 Paul, here at the scene you may not be able to see me, 1082 01:06:52,560 --> 01:06:54,077 we're not allowed to use lights. 1083 01:06:54,112 --> 01:06:56,112 A dramatic development just a few moments ago, 1084 01:06:56,146 --> 01:06:57,560 we did hear a gunshot. 1085 01:06:57,594 --> 01:06:59,698 At this point we do not know exactly what it means. 1086 01:06:59,732 --> 01:07:01,560 We heard a gunshot, there is no way 1087 01:07:01,594 --> 01:07:03,698 of knowing what exactly developed, just before-- 1088 01:07:03,732 --> 01:07:05,629 Stand by. 1089 01:07:07,215 --> 01:07:10,215 Yeah, I thought he killed Hall. 1090 01:07:10,250 --> 01:07:13,250 I mean, it was, I knew what a shotgun sounded like 1091 01:07:13,284 --> 01:07:15,663 and I knew that was a shotgun. 1092 01:07:15,698 --> 01:07:16,732 Come on. 1093 01:07:16,767 --> 01:07:18,250 Mac, pick that up. 1094 01:07:21,215 --> 01:07:22,284 Mac's got it. 1095 01:07:23,870 --> 01:07:26,870 Okay, we're getting over to George Martz. 1096 01:07:28,663 --> 01:07:30,905 And is Hall out of danger? 1097 01:07:30,939 --> 01:07:32,629 Sure, we got him. 1098 01:07:32,663 --> 01:07:35,043 We got him, he's okay. 1099 01:07:35,077 --> 01:07:36,284 Where's Tony? 1100 01:07:36,318 --> 01:07:37,491 I have no idea. 1101 01:07:37,525 --> 01:07:38,870 I don't know, I don't give a shit. 1102 01:07:38,905 --> 01:07:40,043 We heard one shot. 1103 01:07:40,077 --> 01:07:41,560 What happened? 1104 01:07:41,594 --> 01:07:43,353 I don't know what, I can't explain the shot, but, but-- 1105 01:07:43,387 --> 01:07:45,146 Would you go find out for us? 1106 01:07:45,181 --> 01:07:46,077 I'll find out. 1107 01:07:46,112 --> 01:07:47,353 George, louder! 1108 01:07:47,387 --> 01:07:49,215 The hostage is out, he's okay! 1109 01:07:49,250 --> 01:07:51,250 The hostage is released and is alright. 1110 01:07:51,284 --> 01:07:54,318 There is no indication yet as to what the gunshot was. 1111 01:07:54,353 --> 01:07:57,456 There is no indication as to the condition of Tony, 1112 01:07:57,491 --> 01:08:01,181 but Martz says the hostage is alright. 1113 01:08:01,215 --> 01:08:02,870 The hostage is alright. 1114 01:08:02,905 --> 01:08:04,077 We heard one shot. 1115 01:08:04,112 --> 01:08:07,284 We do not know at this point why we heard it. 1116 01:08:07,318 --> 01:08:11,112 But the deputy prosecutor says that the hostage is alright. 1117 01:08:11,146 --> 01:08:13,456 Okay, okay, I've got some information. 1118 01:08:13,491 --> 01:08:15,353 Some new information apparently. 1119 01:08:15,387 --> 01:08:18,422 Tony did shoot the gun, but only as a demonstration that, 1120 01:08:18,456 --> 01:08:22,250 indeed, it was real, only as a demonstration. 1121 01:08:52,387 --> 01:08:53,905 Okay, there's some 1122 01:08:53,939 --> 01:08:56,353 activity down the block here. 1123 01:08:57,525 --> 01:09:00,043 We're going to see what else we can find out. 1124 01:09:01,836 --> 01:09:02,663 Okay. 1125 01:09:10,043 --> 01:09:11,801 We're putting him in the car now. 1126 01:09:11,836 --> 01:09:13,663 Watch your head, Tony. 1127 01:09:18,698 --> 01:09:22,215 Let's step back, let's move back. 1128 01:09:22,250 --> 01:09:23,767 More blasts. 1129 01:09:23,801 --> 01:09:25,698 Another shot behind us. 1130 01:09:32,870 --> 01:09:35,112 If I were Mr. Hall I'd go home. 1131 01:09:35,146 --> 01:09:36,284 I don't know. 1132 01:09:36,318 --> 01:09:37,698 Is he still in the building? 1133 01:09:37,732 --> 01:09:39,146 Yeah. 1134 01:09:39,181 --> 01:09:40,387 Can you just, can you reconstruct 1135 01:09:40,422 --> 01:09:42,284 what you know about the time from when 1136 01:09:42,318 --> 01:09:44,284 they left us till all was resolved? 1137 01:09:44,318 --> 01:09:47,387 They went into the command, what was the command post, 1138 01:09:47,422 --> 01:09:51,112 they negotiated and they released Mr. Hall. 1139 01:09:51,146 --> 01:09:52,801 He walked out in the hall and 1140 01:09:52,836 --> 01:09:55,801 we took him down to another room. 1141 01:09:55,836 --> 01:09:58,215 So there was more negotiation inside. 1142 01:09:58,250 --> 01:09:59,422 Do you know the nature of it? 1143 01:09:59,456 --> 01:10:00,663 Nope, sure don't. 1144 01:10:00,698 --> 01:10:02,698 Who undid the wires, for example? 1145 01:10:02,732 --> 01:10:05,181 I don't know, I wasn't in, I was not in the room. 1146 01:10:05,215 --> 01:10:08,560 I don't, I really, I really don't care. 1147 01:10:08,594 --> 01:10:11,732 He's, he's, we got him, everybody's alive, nobody got hurt. 1148 01:10:11,767 --> 01:10:15,181 Do you think this thing was handled correctly? 1149 01:10:15,215 --> 01:10:18,284 Is the agreement any good that you signed? 1150 01:10:18,318 --> 01:10:21,250 Immunity agreements, are they valid in any way at all? 1151 01:10:21,284 --> 01:10:23,767 Will they stand up in any court? 1152 01:10:23,801 --> 01:10:25,629 We promised immunity. 1153 01:10:25,663 --> 01:10:28,077 I'm going to have a statement on this at a 1154 01:10:28,112 --> 01:10:30,939 later time and I would like to be able to collect 1155 01:10:30,974 --> 01:10:33,836 my thoughts and be able to discuss it rationally. 1156 01:10:33,870 --> 01:10:35,525 I'm very tired at the present time. 1157 01:10:35,560 --> 01:10:36,836 I'd rather not discuss it. 1158 01:10:36,870 --> 01:10:38,456 Have you any precedent at this 1159 01:10:38,491 --> 01:10:40,732 point for this kind of thing? 1160 01:10:40,767 --> 01:10:43,767 I just would rather not comment at this present time. 1161 01:10:43,801 --> 01:10:46,560 Is that press conference going to be tomorrow? 1162 01:10:46,594 --> 01:10:48,905 We'll, you'll be notified. 1163 01:11:00,525 --> 01:11:03,353 And we ended up down at Wishard in the holding 1164 01:11:03,387 --> 01:11:05,698 cell down there which was a padded cell. 1165 01:11:05,732 --> 01:11:08,250 I mean, you had a window about like this. 1166 01:11:08,284 --> 01:11:13,077 I was inside with Tony alone and all of a sudden Tony, 1167 01:11:13,112 --> 01:11:16,629 he was about five, about five, six, 1168 01:11:16,663 --> 01:11:18,594 something like that, stocky as hell, 1169 01:11:18,629 --> 01:11:20,353 and I was about six two. 1170 01:11:20,387 --> 01:11:22,974 And he had grabbed me around the neck like this 1171 01:11:23,008 --> 01:11:25,939 and said, Jack, he says, I really screwed up, didn't I? 1172 01:11:25,974 --> 01:11:28,353 I thought he was going to break my damn neck. 1173 01:11:28,387 --> 01:11:32,043 And I said, Tony, I said, you got some problems. 1174 01:11:32,077 --> 01:11:35,560 I said, I didn't argue with him and I didn't agree with him. 1175 01:11:35,594 --> 01:11:38,077 I just put the neuter in there and I got back over 1176 01:11:38,112 --> 01:11:40,456 there toward the door and I hit on that window 1177 01:11:40,491 --> 01:11:42,939 like this to get me the hell out of there. 1178 01:11:42,974 --> 01:11:45,939 Then they finally opened the door and I got out. 1179 01:11:45,974 --> 01:11:47,698 But, boy, that was a scary time. 1180 01:11:47,732 --> 01:11:49,801 I thought the guy was going to break my neck, 1181 01:11:49,836 --> 01:11:51,870 because he's strong as a bull. 1182 01:11:51,905 --> 01:11:54,456 In Indianapolis Anthony Kiritsis held a shotgun 1183 01:11:54,491 --> 01:11:57,491 at the head of a kidnapped hostage for 60 hours 1184 01:11:57,525 --> 01:12:00,215 demanding a promise he would not be prosecuted. 1185 01:12:00,250 --> 01:12:01,663 Well, he got the promise. 1186 01:12:01,698 --> 01:12:03,629 Today, not surprisingly, when he let 1187 01:12:03,663 --> 01:12:05,698 the hostage go he found the promise was 1188 01:12:05,732 --> 01:12:07,698 not worth the paper it was written on. 1189 01:12:07,732 --> 01:12:10,318 The hostage is free and Kiritsis is in jail. 1190 01:12:10,353 --> 01:12:12,974 Here's Mike Jackson in Indianapolis. 1191 01:12:13,008 --> 01:12:14,663 Kiritsis staged a bizarre 1192 01:12:14,698 --> 01:12:16,836 news conference that lasted almost an hour. 1193 01:12:16,870 --> 01:12:19,181 No one knew whether he would fire the shotgun 1194 01:12:19,215 --> 01:12:20,974 and kill his hostage or others. 1195 01:12:21,008 --> 01:12:23,387 Hostage Richard Hall's face was almost purple 1196 01:12:23,422 --> 01:12:27,353 because the wire around his neck was so tight. 1197 01:12:27,387 --> 01:12:30,181 Kiritsis was taken immediately to the county jail. 1198 01:12:30,215 --> 01:12:31,974 He is charged with seven crimes 1199 01:12:32,008 --> 01:12:34,077 including kidnapping and armed robbery. 1200 01:12:34,112 --> 01:12:38,181 His bail is more than three quarters of a million dollars. 1201 01:12:38,215 --> 01:12:41,491 He was arrested even though he had been promised immunity. 1202 01:12:41,525 --> 01:12:44,594 Mike Jackson, NBC News, Indianapolis. 1203 01:12:56,870 --> 01:13:00,456 Immunity cannot be granted to an accused. 1204 01:13:02,491 --> 01:13:05,767 A document was typed up and given to him 1205 01:13:06,939 --> 01:13:09,732 which would have granted him immunity so long 1206 01:13:09,767 --> 01:13:13,629 as the prosecutor's office honored the terms. 1207 01:13:13,663 --> 01:13:17,146 I'll say this, there was never any intention on 1208 01:13:17,181 --> 01:13:21,318 the part of the prosecutor's office to honor the terms. 1209 01:13:25,870 --> 01:13:28,215 That's pure and simply it. 1210 01:13:32,870 --> 01:13:35,284 He's presently in jail. 1211 01:13:35,318 --> 01:13:38,112 The total bond is $850,000 dollars. 1212 01:13:38,146 --> 01:13:39,043 Yes, ma'am? 1213 01:13:50,353 --> 01:13:53,318 Hall was greeted by a standing ovation, 1214 01:13:53,353 --> 01:13:55,318 by warm applause as he bravely faced 1215 01:13:55,353 --> 01:13:58,008 the news media in the city county building today. 1216 01:13:58,043 --> 01:13:59,560 His wife was by his side. 1217 01:13:59,594 --> 01:14:01,387 The strain of the events of the past 1218 01:14:01,422 --> 01:14:03,422 three days evident on both faces. 1219 01:14:03,456 --> 01:14:05,560 Hall had been advised by his attorneys 1220 01:14:05,594 --> 01:14:07,870 to not answer questions on the details of 1221 01:14:07,905 --> 01:14:10,836 his treatment as a hostage, but he did talk. 1222 01:14:10,870 --> 01:14:13,801 He did have some things he wanted to say. 1223 01:14:13,836 --> 01:14:15,284 It's been a long ordeal. 1224 01:14:15,318 --> 01:14:17,318 My family and I are extremely grateful 1225 01:14:17,353 --> 01:14:20,870 to God for a safe solution in this ordeal. 1226 01:14:22,043 --> 01:14:23,974 We're most appreciative of all those 1227 01:14:24,008 --> 01:14:27,284 thoughts and prayers that were with us 1228 01:14:27,318 --> 01:14:30,318 and we can't express enough our gratitude. 1229 01:14:30,353 --> 01:14:32,767 And then more applause as Hall, 1230 01:14:32,801 --> 01:14:34,456 obviously a strong, stoic individual, 1231 01:14:34,491 --> 01:14:35,732 left the news conference. 1232 01:14:35,767 --> 01:14:37,525 Many questions remain unanswered, 1233 01:14:37,560 --> 01:14:39,629 but for now Richard Hall says he 1234 01:14:39,663 --> 01:14:41,905 is content to just close the door. 1235 01:14:41,939 --> 01:14:43,801 Close the door on the harrowing 1236 01:14:43,836 --> 01:14:46,318 events of the past three days. 1237 01:14:47,525 --> 01:14:50,146 I eventually told Tony that I couldn't 1238 01:14:50,181 --> 01:14:52,594 represent him because I'm going to end up being 1239 01:14:52,629 --> 01:14:55,491 a state's witness in this thing and I can't do both. 1240 01:14:55,525 --> 01:14:58,491 I said, I'll get you a lawyer and I'll get you a good one. 1241 01:14:58,525 --> 01:15:00,456 That's when I got him Owen Mullin. 1242 01:15:00,491 --> 01:15:02,146 Well, they didn't last too long 1243 01:15:02,181 --> 01:15:04,008 because they didn't get along. 1244 01:15:04,043 --> 01:15:05,560 I mean, it's very difficult for 1245 01:15:05,594 --> 01:15:07,560 somebody to get along with Tony. 1246 01:15:07,594 --> 01:15:10,491 He doesn't want to take orders, he wants to give orders. 1247 01:15:10,525 --> 01:15:12,456 And Owen, of course, being a lawyer, 1248 01:15:12,491 --> 01:15:14,663 says you're going to do what I tell you to do. 1249 01:15:14,698 --> 01:15:17,215 And how he got ahold of Stanton, I don't know. 1250 01:15:17,250 --> 01:15:20,318 I happened to be representing a man 1251 01:15:20,353 --> 01:15:22,215 named Roger Drollinger at the time. 1252 01:15:22,250 --> 01:15:26,181 Drollinger was in the Marion County jail 1253 01:15:26,215 --> 01:15:29,077 in a cell next to Tony Kiritsis. 1254 01:15:29,112 --> 01:15:31,698 But Drollinger and Kiritsis got along real well 1255 01:15:31,732 --> 01:15:34,077 and Drollinger recommended me as a lawyer. 1256 01:15:34,112 --> 01:15:36,525 So on Drollinger's recommendation 1257 01:15:36,560 --> 01:15:38,905 Kiritsis decided to hire me. 1258 01:15:42,146 --> 01:15:45,767 In a case of this magnitude you research every 1259 01:15:45,801 --> 01:15:48,905 potential legal issue that you can possibly argue. 1260 01:15:48,939 --> 01:15:50,732 You research the insanity defense. 1261 01:15:50,767 --> 01:15:52,250 You research jury instructions. 1262 01:15:52,284 --> 01:15:55,250 You research every potential legal issue you can 1263 01:15:55,284 --> 01:15:58,939 because Tony was facing a life imprisonment. 1264 01:16:00,318 --> 01:16:02,974 Tony, of course, didn't want this defense. 1265 01:16:03,008 --> 01:16:07,008 His defense would have been, they had it coming. 1266 01:16:07,043 --> 01:16:09,905 So, it's been an all-time loser of a defense. 1267 01:16:09,939 --> 01:16:12,284 In fact, studies show that it's a very minute 1268 01:16:12,318 --> 01:16:14,836 percent of people ever assert this defense 1269 01:16:14,870 --> 01:16:19,318 and in those cases very few people will win it. 1270 01:16:19,353 --> 01:16:21,663 The theory of our defense was that Tony 1271 01:16:21,698 --> 01:16:23,870 was insane at the time of the offense. 1272 01:16:23,905 --> 01:16:27,112 If we were to investigate Meridian Mortgage 1273 01:16:27,146 --> 01:16:29,250 and if we had been able to prove 1274 01:16:29,284 --> 01:16:31,215 that Tony's allegations were true, 1275 01:16:31,250 --> 01:16:33,353 then it would suggest that he wasn't 1276 01:16:33,387 --> 01:16:35,939 out of touch with reality and he was simply 1277 01:16:35,974 --> 01:16:38,215 mad at Meridian Mortgage and that he just 1278 01:16:38,250 --> 01:16:39,767 took the law into his own hands. 1279 01:16:39,801 --> 01:16:41,525 That's not a defense. 1280 01:16:43,008 --> 01:16:44,594 Everybody saw Tony do it. 1281 01:16:44,629 --> 01:16:48,008 Everybody saw the horror in Dick Hall's face 1282 01:16:48,043 --> 01:16:51,836 and saw the possibility that that trigger's 1283 01:16:51,870 --> 01:16:53,767 going to get pulled intentionally, 1284 01:16:53,801 --> 01:16:55,974 or unintentionally, and on live TV 1285 01:16:56,008 --> 01:16:58,112 you're going to watch somebody die. 1286 01:16:58,146 --> 01:17:00,767 Erasing those images or at least allowing 1287 01:17:00,801 --> 01:17:04,112 the jury to say, I can understand the acts 1288 01:17:04,146 --> 01:17:06,284 actually occurred, but still find 1289 01:17:06,318 --> 01:17:09,767 somebody not guilty was a real challenge. 1290 01:17:11,836 --> 01:17:13,663 Mr. Stanton said, "Would you like 1291 01:17:13,698 --> 01:17:17,801 "to meet Mr. Kiritsis and talk with him?" 1292 01:17:17,836 --> 01:17:21,801 In several interviews that lasted several hours each 1293 01:17:21,836 --> 01:17:24,043 became very knowledegable about 1294 01:17:24,077 --> 01:17:27,801 what had led up to this incident in his life. 1295 01:17:29,181 --> 01:17:32,284 He had a very interesting and difficult life. 1296 01:17:32,318 --> 01:17:35,250 He was the son of immigrant parents from Greece. 1297 01:17:35,284 --> 01:17:38,077 They were very poor, very hardworking. 1298 01:17:38,112 --> 01:17:40,353 He loved his mother dearly. 1299 01:17:41,836 --> 01:17:45,422 His father was, apparently, quite a mean man, 1300 01:17:45,456 --> 01:17:48,698 physically violent toward the children. 1301 01:17:50,008 --> 01:17:51,939 One of the stories he told was that 1302 01:17:51,974 --> 01:17:55,422 at the ice cream stand that they worked at, 1303 01:17:55,456 --> 01:17:57,594 the younger children had to go around 1304 01:17:57,629 --> 01:17:59,698 the parking lot and pick up the empty 1305 01:17:59,732 --> 01:18:02,008 paper cups and wash them so that they 1306 01:18:02,043 --> 01:18:04,974 could be reused as a way of saving money. 1307 01:18:05,008 --> 01:18:07,974 He remembers on one occasion when they didn't 1308 01:18:08,008 --> 01:18:10,215 get all of them picked up quickly enough 1309 01:18:10,250 --> 01:18:12,284 and a car backed over some of them, 1310 01:18:12,318 --> 01:18:15,836 his father whipping him out in this public space 1311 01:18:15,870 --> 01:18:18,318 in front of one of Mr. Kiritsis's friends 1312 01:18:18,353 --> 01:18:20,250 and family and then whoever else 1313 01:18:20,284 --> 01:18:23,112 happened to be there in that area. 1314 01:18:25,284 --> 01:18:29,698 He was brought in by two very big men hanging onto him. 1315 01:18:29,732 --> 01:18:33,801 He was very upset that people are so mean to him. 1316 01:18:33,836 --> 01:18:36,215 That they would arrest him, that they would 1317 01:18:36,250 --> 01:18:38,974 put him in prison and lock him up. 1318 01:18:39,008 --> 01:18:41,491 Why would they do that to him? 1319 01:18:43,250 --> 01:18:44,974 No, he knew what he was doing. 1320 01:18:45,008 --> 01:18:47,250 He was doing it on purpose, this man deserves it. 1321 01:18:47,284 --> 01:18:49,284 Where the kink in his thinking was that 1322 01:18:49,318 --> 01:18:51,939 he had been hurt and therefore, if he was hurt, 1323 01:18:51,974 --> 01:18:55,629 he was able to go out and do things to make it right. 1324 01:18:55,663 --> 01:18:58,008 He would have long times where he was 1325 01:18:58,043 --> 01:19:00,387 a good solid citizen and he would have other 1326 01:19:00,422 --> 01:19:03,767 times where he was basically a wild man. 1327 01:19:14,594 --> 01:19:17,043 There's three things going on in a case like this. 1328 01:19:17,077 --> 01:19:19,387 And that is first of all, the prosecutor is trying 1329 01:19:19,422 --> 01:19:21,077 to make their case, obviously, 1330 01:19:21,112 --> 01:19:23,663 beyond a reasonable doubt and not make mistakes 1331 01:19:23,698 --> 01:19:25,939 that are going to be grounds for appeal if 1332 01:19:25,974 --> 01:19:27,836 the case goes up, if the guy's found guilty. 1333 01:19:27,870 --> 01:19:29,560 The defense wants to make mistakes, 1334 01:19:29,594 --> 01:19:32,525 they want to make a shambles of the trial if they can, 1335 01:19:32,560 --> 01:19:34,732 so there's lots of things they can argue about. 1336 01:19:34,767 --> 01:19:37,318 And then the judge's role is to keep very tight control 1337 01:19:37,353 --> 01:19:39,698 of the courtroom, keep tight control of the jury 1338 01:19:39,732 --> 01:19:42,181 and not make any mistakes that are likely 1339 01:19:42,215 --> 01:19:45,698 to be used on appeal if he's found guilty. 1340 01:19:46,974 --> 01:19:48,732 The defense psychiatrist said yes, 1341 01:19:48,767 --> 01:19:51,146 he was insane at the time. 1342 01:19:51,181 --> 01:19:54,215 The prosecution psychiatrist said no, he wasn't. 1343 01:19:54,250 --> 01:19:56,767 And I think because the psychiatric testimony 1344 01:19:56,801 --> 01:19:59,491 was fairly strong on both sides, 1345 01:19:59,525 --> 01:20:02,525 I think the jury kind of just disregarded it. 1346 01:20:02,560 --> 01:20:03,939 We got tired of them. 1347 01:20:03,974 --> 01:20:05,905 They all talked in clinical terms. 1348 01:20:05,939 --> 01:20:09,560 Was Tony paranoid or was he schizophrenic, 1349 01:20:09,594 --> 01:20:11,250 or maybe he wasn't? 1350 01:20:11,284 --> 01:20:14,974 So we had to try to make sense of that and after a while, 1351 01:20:15,008 --> 01:20:19,181 in all honesty, it got very confusing and almost pointless. 1352 01:20:22,939 --> 01:20:25,077 This was not the first time that 1353 01:20:25,112 --> 01:20:27,594 Kiritsis had done something like this. 1354 01:20:27,629 --> 01:20:30,387 This was kind of a reenactment of an incident 1355 01:20:30,422 --> 01:20:34,112 that he had had with his own family. 1356 01:20:34,146 --> 01:20:35,732 Effie Kiritsis testified next. 1357 01:20:35,767 --> 01:20:37,663 Tony's older sister had to be lifted into 1358 01:20:37,698 --> 01:20:40,112 the witness chair as she is crippled with arthritis. 1359 01:20:40,146 --> 01:20:42,353 She had not seen her brother for eight years. 1360 01:20:42,387 --> 01:20:44,698 At that time he broke into her home with a gun 1361 01:20:44,732 --> 01:20:46,422 and held her for two and a half days 1362 01:20:46,456 --> 01:20:48,250 while demanding a financial settlement 1363 01:20:48,284 --> 01:20:50,043 for his work at the family trailer court. 1364 01:20:50,077 --> 01:20:52,008 It was brother Tom, however, who revealed 1365 01:20:52,043 --> 01:20:53,594 that the family agreed to give Tony 1366 01:20:53,629 --> 01:20:55,318 $55,000 dollars, to not send Tony 1367 01:20:55,353 --> 01:20:57,732 to a psychiatrist, to not press charges. 1368 01:20:57,767 --> 01:20:59,801 Ironically, the details of the agreement 1369 01:20:59,836 --> 01:21:02,181 for Effie's release were remarkably like those 1370 01:21:02,215 --> 01:21:04,974 demanded by Kiritsis when he held Dick Hall hostage. 1371 01:21:05,008 --> 01:21:07,594 Linda Lupear for the news, Channel 6. 1372 01:21:07,629 --> 01:21:09,939 He put Tony on the stand, which was surprising, 1373 01:21:09,974 --> 01:21:12,250 and I thought at that point, well we're really 1374 01:21:12,284 --> 01:21:14,629 going to hear what Meridian Mortgage did to him. 1375 01:21:14,663 --> 01:21:16,146 And it was the same old story. 1376 01:21:16,181 --> 01:21:18,353 Just when you thought you were going to find out 1377 01:21:18,387 --> 01:21:20,870 what it was that they had done that really set him off, 1378 01:21:20,905 --> 01:21:23,215 he would zing off, which made you think that well, 1379 01:21:23,250 --> 01:21:25,387 he just couldn't pay the mortgage and eventually 1380 01:21:25,422 --> 01:21:27,284 they were going to foreclose on the land. 1381 01:21:27,318 --> 01:21:29,801 I mean, that's basically where you ended up every time. 1382 01:21:29,836 --> 01:21:32,318 I mean, it happened several times during the testimony. 1383 01:21:32,353 --> 01:21:34,422 And I thought, well, is that it? 1384 01:21:34,456 --> 01:21:37,043 They had given Tony an extension of time 1385 01:21:37,077 --> 01:21:39,318 in which to pay his mortgage payments 1386 01:21:39,353 --> 01:21:41,112 on the land that he was buying. 1387 01:21:41,146 --> 01:21:43,491 And they'd done this repeatedly and then when 1388 01:21:43,525 --> 01:21:45,870 they finally didn't then he thought, well, 1389 01:21:45,905 --> 01:21:48,043 this meant they were trying to cheat him. 1390 01:21:48,077 --> 01:21:49,870 He thought that they had interfered with 1391 01:21:49,905 --> 01:21:52,008 his efforts to develop the land and hoping 1392 01:21:52,043 --> 01:21:54,387 that he would therefore fall behind on payments 1393 01:21:54,422 --> 01:21:56,905 so that they could get it for, the land for a low price. 1394 01:21:56,939 --> 01:22:01,112 And that's, there was just not evidence to back that up. 1395 01:22:06,215 --> 01:22:09,698 I did to Dick Hall was a terrible thing, a horrible thing. 1396 01:22:09,732 --> 01:22:12,801 I didn't want to do it and I tried not to do it. 1397 01:22:12,836 --> 01:22:14,974 At that point he burst into tears. 1398 01:22:15,008 --> 01:22:17,284 Defense attorney Niles Stanton then led him 1399 01:22:17,318 --> 01:22:19,732 through a narration about his early family life. 1400 01:22:19,767 --> 01:22:21,801 His voice quivering, Kiritsis said he loved 1401 01:22:21,836 --> 01:22:23,698 his father in spite of his strictness. 1402 01:22:23,732 --> 01:22:25,663 He began pushing an ice cream cart 1403 01:22:25,698 --> 01:22:27,836 12 hours a day at the age of nine. 1404 01:22:27,870 --> 01:22:29,732 At times he broke down completely 1405 01:22:29,767 --> 01:22:31,698 and needed time to compose himself. 1406 01:22:31,732 --> 01:22:33,250 Kiritsis told a different story 1407 01:22:33,284 --> 01:22:34,836 of the abduction of his sister saying 1408 01:22:34,870 --> 01:22:36,801 he was being pushed out by the family. 1409 01:22:36,836 --> 01:22:38,284 Things became very cool. 1410 01:22:38,318 --> 01:22:40,767 He was very hurt by what Effie and his brothers did. 1411 01:22:40,801 --> 01:22:42,422 The jury stared at the defendant 1412 01:22:42,456 --> 01:22:44,629 as he told of a vow he made over his mother's 1413 01:22:44,663 --> 01:22:47,525 casket promising to take care of the family. 1414 01:22:47,560 --> 01:22:49,939 He dropped a class ring in the coffin. 1415 01:22:49,974 --> 01:22:51,767 He said he made a cross on the wall 1416 01:22:51,801 --> 01:22:53,939 in his own blood the day he broke the oath. 1417 01:22:53,974 --> 01:22:55,250 That was the day the family 1418 01:22:55,284 --> 01:22:56,836 threw him out of the trailer park. 1419 01:22:56,870 --> 01:22:58,181 And we might add, Clyde, 1420 01:22:58,215 --> 01:22:59,732 that the courtroom was packed all day. 1421 01:22:59,767 --> 01:23:00,974 I'll bet. 1422 01:23:01,008 --> 01:23:02,353 What's it look like for the rest of the trial? 1423 01:23:02,387 --> 01:23:04,181 Well, it will probably go to the jury, 1424 01:23:04,215 --> 01:23:05,629 the judge says maybe by next Thursday. 1425 01:23:05,663 --> 01:23:08,456 Okay, thanks Linda. 1426 01:23:08,491 --> 01:23:11,525 We had lots and lots of jury instructions in this case. 1427 01:23:11,560 --> 01:23:14,870 Basic instruction was, was at the time of 1428 01:23:14,905 --> 01:23:17,077 the offense did he have a mental disease 1429 01:23:17,112 --> 01:23:19,456 or defect that prevented him from 1430 01:23:19,491 --> 01:23:22,284 understanding the consequences of his action? 1431 01:23:22,318 --> 01:23:24,112 Even if he knew right and wrong, 1432 01:23:24,146 --> 01:23:28,594 did he still have enough volition to be a sane person? 1433 01:23:28,629 --> 01:23:31,008 With that final instruction not guilty 1434 01:23:31,043 --> 01:23:33,905 by reason of insanity at the time of the act. 1435 01:23:33,939 --> 01:23:36,560 Not a minute before or not a minute after, 1436 01:23:36,594 --> 01:23:38,043 at the time of the act. 1437 01:23:38,077 --> 01:23:41,629 I thought, wow, I'm surrounded by a bunch of adults here. 1438 01:23:41,663 --> 01:23:44,767 There ain't no way they're going to see it different, 1439 01:23:44,801 --> 01:23:46,318 pssh, but they did. 1440 01:23:46,353 --> 01:23:48,043 We had a tough time of it. 1441 01:23:48,077 --> 01:23:49,939 And we came at it from everybody's 1442 01:23:49,974 --> 01:23:52,663 own opinions and experience and also, 1443 01:23:52,698 --> 01:23:55,732 in some cases, correct and in some cases, 1444 01:23:55,767 --> 01:24:00,112 faulty remembrances of what we heard over the last 14 days. 1445 01:24:00,146 --> 01:24:04,077 We were all so emotionally drained and tired. 1446 01:24:06,043 --> 01:24:07,525 We knew he did it. 1447 01:24:09,181 --> 01:24:12,491 It was very evident he did it from the footage that we saw. 1448 01:24:12,525 --> 01:24:16,525 But the problem was the way the law was written. 1449 01:24:17,732 --> 01:24:20,146 We all went back into the courtroom because 1450 01:24:20,181 --> 01:24:22,629 we didn't think we could come to a verdict. 1451 01:24:22,663 --> 01:24:25,250 Judge Dugan told us that, yes, I think 1452 01:24:25,284 --> 01:24:27,215 you can come to a verdict and he 1453 01:24:27,250 --> 01:24:30,456 sent us back in for more deliberations. 1454 01:24:31,767 --> 01:24:34,250 I was prepared to tell the judge we were going 1455 01:24:34,284 --> 01:24:38,250 to be a hung jury if that's what it took. 1456 01:24:38,284 --> 01:24:40,560 All 12 of us had doubts. 1457 01:24:40,594 --> 01:24:42,353 The question is is whether or not 1458 01:24:42,387 --> 01:24:45,215 they were reasonable doubt. 1459 01:24:45,250 --> 01:24:47,870 I don't think there was a single juror 1460 01:24:47,905 --> 01:24:50,560 that was happy with the verdict. 1461 01:24:53,112 --> 01:24:54,629 We found out the votes. 1462 01:24:54,663 --> 01:24:56,215 The first vote was six to six. 1463 01:24:56,250 --> 01:24:58,250 The next vote we learned was eight to four. 1464 01:24:58,284 --> 01:25:00,215 We didn't know which way eight to four. 1465 01:25:00,250 --> 01:25:01,974 The next vote was 10 to two. 1466 01:25:02,008 --> 01:25:04,456 The next vote was 11 to one and then it seemed 1467 01:25:04,491 --> 01:25:07,043 to have been 11 to one forever 1468 01:25:07,077 --> 01:25:09,801 and then finally they had a verdict. 1469 01:25:09,836 --> 01:25:14,008 But neither side knew which way the jury was leaning. 1470 01:25:33,732 --> 01:25:34,732 Be seated. 1471 01:25:39,732 --> 01:25:42,387 For the record this is CR77-44A. 1472 01:25:44,525 --> 01:25:47,870 The time is 10:04 on October 21st, 1977. 1473 01:25:49,732 --> 01:25:52,767 I'll ask the jury and I'll ask the foreman of the jury, 1474 01:25:52,801 --> 01:25:56,387 duly elected, do you have verdicts? 1475 01:25:56,422 --> 01:25:58,008 I do, Your Honor. 1476 01:25:58,043 --> 01:26:02,215 If you'll pass those verdicts to the bailiff, please. 1477 01:26:18,560 --> 01:26:20,422 Okay, will the defendant, Mr. Kiritsis, 1478 01:26:20,456 --> 01:26:23,456 please rise and face the bench, sir. 1479 01:26:25,318 --> 01:26:29,491 Foreman, the verdict is, we the jury find the defendant 1480 01:26:30,698 --> 01:26:33,181 Anthony J. Kiritsis, not guilty by reason of-- 1481 01:26:39,387 --> 01:26:41,112 I've got to tell you one thing. 1482 01:26:41,146 --> 01:26:42,767 Just a minute, Mr. Kiritsis. 1483 01:26:42,801 --> 01:26:44,629 Just a minute, please. 1484 01:26:47,905 --> 01:26:49,767 We further find that the defendant, 1485 01:26:49,801 --> 01:26:52,008 Anthony J. Kiritsis committed the act charged 1486 01:26:52,043 --> 01:26:54,801 in count three of the information 1487 01:26:56,250 --> 01:26:58,836 and that at the time the defendant was insane and is, 1488 01:26:58,870 --> 01:27:02,077 therefore, not guilty by reason of insanity. 1489 01:27:02,112 --> 01:27:03,560 Please be seated. 1490 01:27:03,594 --> 01:27:06,422 I'm sorry, I'm sorry, Your Honor. 1491 01:27:12,698 --> 01:27:14,594 Does the state wish to poll the jury? 1492 01:27:14,629 --> 01:27:16,112 No, Your Honor. 1493 01:27:16,146 --> 01:27:20,663 The court now sets at nine o'clock, a.m., 1494 01:27:20,698 --> 01:27:24,870 November the 9th, 1977, as that date for a hearing 1495 01:27:26,284 --> 01:27:30,008 pursuant to statute on the question of competency 1496 01:27:31,870 --> 01:27:35,801 as to further action by the court in this case. 1497 01:27:39,456 --> 01:27:42,525 With that, the court is adjourned. 1498 01:27:51,801 --> 01:27:53,387 I knew how difficult it was for 1499 01:27:53,422 --> 01:27:56,077 the prosecutor to prove that he was sane. 1500 01:27:56,112 --> 01:27:58,801 I think both sides did an extremely good job. 1501 01:27:58,836 --> 01:28:02,043 Based on the testimony I was surprised 1502 01:28:02,077 --> 01:28:04,077 that the jury would think he was, in fact, 1503 01:28:04,112 --> 01:28:06,905 insane when the offense was committed. 1504 01:28:06,939 --> 01:28:08,801 Yeah, I was in a way because 1505 01:28:08,836 --> 01:28:11,112 that's a very difficult defense. 1506 01:28:11,146 --> 01:28:13,525 You've gotta have overwhelming evidence that 1507 01:28:13,560 --> 01:28:16,387 a guy is wacko and I didn't think it was there. 1508 01:28:16,422 --> 01:28:18,629 I mean, he was up and down, 1509 01:28:18,663 --> 01:28:20,767 yo-yo like and everything like that. 1510 01:28:20,801 --> 01:28:23,181 I had to think the jury may have felt a 1511 01:28:23,215 --> 01:28:26,560 little bit sorry for Tony on his getting screwed 1512 01:28:26,594 --> 01:28:28,629 out of that land or something like that. 1513 01:28:28,663 --> 01:28:32,560 Something to give them an idea to give him a break. 1514 01:28:32,594 --> 01:28:36,525 I found him to be very honest and forthright. 1515 01:28:37,974 --> 01:28:42,353 I could identify with the abuse he went through. 1516 01:28:42,387 --> 01:28:46,560 To this day I resent anybody telling me I had better. 1517 01:28:50,077 --> 01:28:52,215 It wasn't nothing for his dad to get him up 1518 01:28:52,250 --> 01:28:53,836 and tell him he had better get out 1519 01:28:53,870 --> 01:28:55,663 and start humping them ice creams. 1520 01:28:55,698 --> 01:28:58,146 He was thrust into a manhood as a child 1521 01:28:58,181 --> 01:29:01,905 and I can identify with that more than you know. 1522 01:29:01,939 --> 01:29:03,663 What did he have to gain by not 1523 01:29:03,698 --> 01:29:07,284 showing anything less than the truth? 1524 01:29:07,318 --> 01:29:08,146 Okay? 1525 01:29:10,112 --> 01:29:13,732 You're not going to make that stuff up. 1526 01:29:13,767 --> 01:29:17,387 When they took the insanity defense 1527 01:29:17,422 --> 01:29:19,284 the state took the other side. 1528 01:29:19,318 --> 01:29:21,663 He was just a mad, mean man. 1529 01:29:23,284 --> 01:29:26,284 They would tell you there wasn't nothing insane about him. 1530 01:29:26,318 --> 01:29:27,525 Nothing. 1531 01:29:27,560 --> 01:29:29,491 But the minute they found him not guilty 1532 01:29:29,525 --> 01:29:31,698 they switched and said he's crazy, 1533 01:29:31,732 --> 01:29:34,250 he needs more tests and he should be locked up. 1534 01:29:34,284 --> 01:29:37,870 At that point Tony refused to take any more tests. 1535 01:29:37,905 --> 01:29:42,043 He said, you guys said there was nothing wrong with me. 1536 01:29:42,077 --> 01:29:44,112 Now you're saying you want all kinds of, 1537 01:29:44,146 --> 01:29:46,767 and he wasn't, and they held him for almost 10 years 1538 01:29:46,801 --> 01:29:48,732 in contempt of court for that reason. 1539 01:29:48,767 --> 01:29:52,456 And that tells you what kind of guy Dugan was. 1540 01:29:52,491 --> 01:29:55,043 He's very inadequate, in my opinion. 1541 01:29:55,077 --> 01:29:59,043 Because that could not have been the law, in my opinion. 1542 01:29:59,077 --> 01:30:01,801 And I don't who manipulated him, someone did, though. 1543 01:30:01,836 --> 01:30:03,939 I'll always believe that. 1544 01:30:05,181 --> 01:30:08,594 I've got my suspicions but I can't prove them. 1545 01:30:08,629 --> 01:30:10,836 You're not in a world here where 1546 01:30:10,870 --> 01:30:14,663 you can say things are black or white. 1547 01:30:14,698 --> 01:30:17,801 And you have to say they're somewhere in between. 1548 01:30:17,836 --> 01:30:22,008 Certainly, Tony did not meet the criteria for being insane. 1549 01:30:24,318 --> 01:30:27,663 On the other hand, his behavior was insane. 1550 01:30:27,698 --> 01:30:29,905 So, what are you going to do with that? 1551 01:30:31,353 --> 01:30:34,974 You have to work on that and chew it a bit. 1552 01:31:36,284 --> 01:31:38,008 Let me say something. 1553 01:31:38,043 --> 01:31:40,905 We all live in the greatest country on earth. 1554 01:31:40,939 --> 01:31:43,767 But this is the type of thing that 1555 01:31:46,181 --> 01:31:50,077 undermines the liberties that my father 1556 01:31:50,112 --> 01:31:52,594 and my mother came here from Greece for. 1557 01:31:52,629 --> 01:31:54,456 And probably all of your ancestors 1558 01:31:54,491 --> 01:31:56,008 and I'm not trying to be corny. 1559 01:31:56,043 --> 01:31:58,077 I may be a flag waver, but I wave it a hell of 1560 01:31:58,112 --> 01:32:00,146 a lot better than John Wayne, I'll tell you that. 1561 01:32:00,181 --> 01:32:01,698 I did not. 1562 01:32:01,732 --> 01:32:03,560 Okay. 1563 01:32:13,560 --> 01:32:15,112 I lost credibility with Kiritsis. 1564 01:32:15,146 --> 01:32:16,732 I lost credibility in the community 1565 01:32:16,767 --> 01:32:18,008 and I don't appreciate it. 1566 01:32:18,043 --> 01:32:19,939 I didn't care for it one way or the other 1567 01:32:19,974 --> 01:32:22,284 but I had that credibility in this hand 1568 01:32:22,318 --> 01:32:25,043 and I had Hall's life and, you know, 1569 01:32:25,077 --> 01:32:27,318 his wife and children, his little girls, 1570 01:32:27,353 --> 01:32:29,491 on this hand, in my mind. 1571 01:32:29,525 --> 01:32:33,318 And I weighed the two and I, to myself, 1572 01:32:33,353 --> 01:32:35,284 said, I felt that his life was, 1573 01:32:35,318 --> 01:32:37,181 and if I could help save it, 1574 01:32:37,215 --> 01:32:39,318 his life was more important over here than 1575 01:32:39,353 --> 01:32:41,594 the credibility that I'd have to work to get back. 1576 01:32:41,629 --> 01:32:43,629 This is an interesting point you bring up 1577 01:32:43,663 --> 01:32:46,836 because these young people here at Ball State, 1578 01:32:46,870 --> 01:32:48,905 in journalism, in radio and television 1579 01:32:48,939 --> 01:32:51,250 are going to be faced with it more and more 1580 01:32:51,284 --> 01:32:53,456 in the immediate years to come. 1581 01:32:53,491 --> 01:32:56,870 Terrorism, with all the technological advances 1582 01:32:56,905 --> 01:33:00,422 that are coming, coming down now, 1583 01:33:00,456 --> 01:33:03,353 and the sophisticated forms of terrorism 1584 01:33:03,387 --> 01:33:05,767 that are being developed in Europe are coming 1585 01:33:05,801 --> 01:33:09,318 across here as surely as we're sitting here today. 1586 01:33:09,353 --> 01:33:11,284 The question now is what are these 1587 01:33:11,318 --> 01:33:13,215 young men and women, as journalists, 1588 01:33:13,250 --> 01:33:15,939 going to be doing when they have a terrorist 1589 01:33:15,974 --> 01:33:18,732 on one hand who says, "I'm going to poison 1590 01:33:18,767 --> 01:33:21,491 "the water supply of New York City?" 1591 01:33:21,525 --> 01:33:23,318 Hey, it is very easy. 1592 01:33:23,353 --> 01:33:25,836 I'm going to blow up all the transmission lines 1593 01:33:25,870 --> 01:33:28,422 in the state of Indiana, the electrical power lines. 1594 01:33:28,456 --> 01:33:30,698 And that's not that far fetched. 1595 01:33:30,732 --> 01:33:33,215 Technologically, it's available and it is possible. 1596 01:33:33,250 --> 01:33:35,974 Now, if this young journalist knows this 1597 01:33:36,008 --> 01:33:39,112 information does he broadcast it, does he not? 1598 01:33:39,146 --> 01:33:40,663 You know, where do we go? 1599 01:33:40,698 --> 01:33:44,974 Prior restraint, I totally disagree with, prior restraint. 1600 01:33:45,008 --> 01:33:47,250 I don't want anybody telling me that you can 1601 01:33:47,284 --> 01:33:50,146 or cannot broadcast this at any given time. 1602 01:33:50,181 --> 01:33:53,594 I don't, my First Amendment rights, I think, 1603 01:33:53,629 --> 01:33:57,836 would be jeoparidized and violated there. 1604 01:33:57,870 --> 01:33:59,698 But we are going to have to think 1605 01:33:59,732 --> 01:34:01,836 about restraints and I, and here I am waffling. 1606 01:34:01,870 --> 01:34:03,870 I'm going from one side of this fence to the other. 1607 01:34:03,905 --> 01:34:04,939 I don't know the answer. 1608 01:34:04,974 --> 01:34:06,387 I don't know that anybody does. 1609 01:34:06,422 --> 01:34:08,594 The Kiritsis thing opened our eyes to a lot of things. 1610 01:34:08,629 --> 01:34:10,387 First of all, we have these insta-cams, 1611 01:34:10,422 --> 01:34:12,663 mini-cams, action cams, they're all the same thing. 1612 01:34:12,698 --> 01:34:15,112 They're portable, instant television cameras 1613 01:34:15,146 --> 01:34:17,732 which our promotion departments and our news departments 1614 01:34:17,767 --> 01:34:19,663 thought were great promotional gimmicks. 1615 01:34:19,698 --> 01:34:21,146 You take these out and you give 1616 01:34:21,181 --> 01:34:23,112 the impression of being everywhere live. 1617 01:34:23,146 --> 01:34:24,905 We didn't think through the 1618 01:34:24,939 --> 01:34:26,870 philosophical questions involved. 1619 01:34:26,905 --> 01:34:29,077 Kiritsis finally brought it all home to us. 1620 01:34:29,112 --> 01:34:32,284 Once you arrive at the scene of a story 1621 01:34:32,318 --> 01:34:35,043 like a Kiritsis hostage incident, 1622 01:34:37,043 --> 01:34:39,663 when you turn that camera on you are 1623 01:34:39,698 --> 01:34:41,525 setting up a life or death situation 1624 01:34:41,560 --> 01:34:45,250 in living rooms all across the city. 1625 01:34:45,284 --> 01:34:46,801 I don't think the question is, 1626 01:34:46,836 --> 01:34:49,008 and I'm a little tired of some of these people 1627 01:34:49,043 --> 01:34:51,353 who say they are, the self-righteous atmosphere, 1628 01:34:51,387 --> 01:34:53,043 the attitude of, of we upheld the 1629 01:34:53,077 --> 01:34:55,112 public morality by pulling the plug on it. 1630 01:34:55,146 --> 01:34:57,112 That's nonsense, that's not the question. 1631 01:34:57,146 --> 01:34:59,732 The question is should we have gone in to begin with? 1632 01:34:59,767 --> 01:35:02,043 Should we have set up that circus atmosphere? 1633 01:35:02,077 --> 01:35:04,560 Hour by hour reports saying this man may have 1634 01:35:04,594 --> 01:35:07,525 his head blown off in your living room at any moment now. 1635 01:35:07,560 --> 01:35:09,939 Whether we should, in effect what we were saying, 1636 01:35:09,974 --> 01:35:12,250 we set it up for people and then to pull the plug 1637 01:35:12,284 --> 01:35:14,870 at the moment of truth is too late. 1638 01:35:14,905 --> 01:35:17,215 And I think the questions that need to be asked 1639 01:35:17,250 --> 01:35:19,353 about violence and these live cameras is 1640 01:35:19,387 --> 01:35:22,353 when do you go in and when do you hold back? 1641 01:35:22,387 --> 01:35:25,077 When do you stay back from the scene? 1642 01:35:25,112 --> 01:35:27,077 Because we don't, when do you inform 1643 01:35:27,112 --> 01:35:29,008 and when do you incite, in other words. 1644 01:35:29,043 --> 01:35:30,801 I think this is probably the first case, 1645 01:35:30,836 --> 01:35:34,560 maybe in judicial history, where the jury 1646 01:35:34,594 --> 01:35:37,284 was also the eyewitness to the crime. 1647 01:35:37,318 --> 01:35:40,250 Where everyone in the jury box had, 1648 01:35:40,284 --> 01:35:42,974 not newspaper clippings or hearsay evidence to go by, 1649 01:35:43,008 --> 01:35:46,318 they saw it happen, either live or in replays. 1650 01:35:46,353 --> 01:35:49,215 So when all of those sober arguments were made 1651 01:35:49,250 --> 01:35:51,387 by a criminologist and psychiatrist about 1652 01:35:51,422 --> 01:35:54,698 this man's mental condition, I'm convinced that, 1653 01:35:54,732 --> 01:35:58,905 and I have no evidence other than my own thoughts on this, 1654 01:36:00,353 --> 01:36:02,250 that going through the minds of the jury were not 1655 01:36:02,284 --> 01:36:03,870 all of those arguments they were hearing, 1656 01:36:03,905 --> 01:36:05,732 but what they saw that night when John Wayne, 1657 01:36:05,767 --> 01:36:07,801 who was receiving an award, suddenly turned into 1658 01:36:07,836 --> 01:36:09,456 Tony Kiritsis with a, holding a gun 1659 01:36:09,491 --> 01:36:11,318 to this man's head in their living room. 1660 01:36:11,353 --> 01:36:14,974 I mean, my first reaction was this is crazy, he's crazy. 1661 01:36:15,008 --> 01:36:19,181 And the jury ruled he's crazy and therefore, innocent. 1662 01:36:20,387 --> 01:36:23,353 Tony became kind of an annoyance 1663 01:36:23,387 --> 01:36:25,663 to people after a period of time. 1664 01:36:25,698 --> 01:36:27,560 I'm not going to mention any names, 1665 01:36:27,594 --> 01:36:29,698 but I got a call from a television news anchor 1666 01:36:29,732 --> 01:36:31,905 who is a friend of mine and I was working 1667 01:36:31,939 --> 01:36:35,491 at another television station at this time and said, 1668 01:36:35,525 --> 01:36:37,112 "Are you getting calls from Tony?" 1669 01:36:37,146 --> 01:36:38,698 And I said yes and he said so am I. 1670 01:36:38,732 --> 01:36:40,008 He said, what are you saying? 1671 01:36:40,043 --> 01:36:41,629 I said, Tony, I tell him, I'm sorry, 1672 01:36:41,663 --> 01:36:43,560 you know, you had some bad breaks. 1673 01:36:43,594 --> 01:36:47,836 You know, I, there's nothing I can do for you at this point. 1674 01:36:47,870 --> 01:36:49,077 I can't help you. 1675 01:36:49,112 --> 01:36:51,974 And sadly, and I think this is 1676 01:36:52,008 --> 01:36:54,284 a moment of honesty in journalism, 1677 01:36:54,318 --> 01:36:57,387 is that Tony was an old story by that time. 1678 01:36:57,422 --> 01:37:00,318 And maybe he should not have been, 1679 01:37:00,353 --> 01:37:02,767 but we were all in a very competitive business 1680 01:37:02,801 --> 01:37:04,456 and we just didn't see a lot of value 1681 01:37:04,491 --> 01:37:06,284 in spending a lot of time in pursuing 1682 01:37:06,318 --> 01:37:09,456 the Tony Kiritsis story ad nauseum. 1683 01:37:09,491 --> 01:37:12,284 But maybe it should have been pursued. 1684 01:37:12,318 --> 01:37:15,112 In retrospect maybe it should have been, 1685 01:37:15,146 --> 01:37:16,939 but none of us made that call. 1686 01:37:16,974 --> 01:37:20,318 Most of us made the call to, to just let it go, 1687 01:37:20,353 --> 01:37:22,698 until somebody sort of examines 1688 01:37:22,732 --> 01:37:26,008 the significance and the legacy. 1689 01:37:26,043 --> 01:37:27,215 So, good for you.