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Did you have some interaction
with a Conrad Roy Junior?
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-Yes, I did.
-And could you please describe that?
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Objection.
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Overruled.
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I was... I was... I responded
to an assault call, sir.
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Okay. And what
did you do when you arrived?
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We attempted to find the person
that had been assaulted.
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Okay. And at some point
in time, did you come into, um,
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the physical presence
of Conrad Roy III?
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- I did.
- Okay. And uh,
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did you make any observationsof him?
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Yes, his face was swollen red
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and he had some uh,lacerations to his face.
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Did you obtaina written statement from him?
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I did, yes.
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I found myself at a home
located on Perkins Lane.
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And what did you do
when you arrived at that location?
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I interviewed an older male
and a female.
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Okay. And do you remember
the older male's name?
20
00:02:00,197 --> 00:02:01,574
Conrad Roy.
21
00:02:01,741 --> 00:02:03,910
And did you ask him
specifically what happened?
22
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Yes, I did.
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Before concluding my investigation,
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a male party was subsequently
placed under arrest.
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00:02:16,756 --> 00:02:19,133
-And who was that male party that was...
-The father.
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-The one you were speaking to?
-Correct.
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-And what was he arrested for?
-Assault and battery domestic.
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Yeah. You know, you think at first
it's kind of embarrassing.
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But you know what?
It doesn't really matter.
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00:02:32,063 --> 00:02:34,357
I know what happened
that night with my son.
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And I know, like,
I was being a parent.
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And I know things got out of control
and we both fought each other.
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And, um...
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00:02:44,159 --> 00:02:46,620
and I'd do it again
just... just like that.
35
00:02:48,538 --> 00:02:51,458
You know, sometimes, like,
you say it, you know, like...
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My father always said,
"If you ever take a swing at me,
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you're gonna, um,
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you're gonna get it."
You know? It's like,
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"You're gonna make sure
you don't do that ever again."
40
00:03:00,883 --> 00:03:04,262
And I just felt like
I had to do the same thing.
41
00:04:16,502 --> 00:04:18,921
Hard to describe the feelingin the courtroom today.
42
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Pretty much everyone on edge.
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00:04:20,965 --> 00:04:22,884
Now, the defense
will present their case.
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00:04:23,050 --> 00:04:25,386
They've already called
several witnesses this morning
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and things will move forwardin this landmark trial.
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You have to remember thatthis case has two families
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who were basically tryingto do the same thing.
48
00:04:36,981 --> 00:04:40,360
They both want a version of the story
in which it is not their fault.
49
00:04:40,526 --> 00:04:42,570
The Roys are hoping for
a version of the story
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00:04:42,737 --> 00:04:46,157
where the suicide of their sonis Michelle's fault,
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and that she was waiting for the momentwhen she could pounce on this kid
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and make him kill himselfand get a bunch of sympathy.
53
00:04:52,247 --> 00:04:54,124
And the Carters are hoping for
a version of the story
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where Michelle's actions
are not her fault.
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00:04:57,669 --> 00:05:00,380
And that's what Peter Bregginwas arguing.
56
00:05:00,547 --> 00:05:03,842
- Morning, Doctor.
- Good morning, Your Honor.
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Please raise your right hand.
In this matter before the court,
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you swear the testimony you're about
to give to be the truth, the whole truth
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00:05:09,514 --> 00:05:10,891
and nothing but the truth,
so help you God?
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00:05:11,058 --> 00:05:12,476
-I do.
-Thank you.
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00:05:12,643 --> 00:05:16,146
All right. Please take a seat, sir.
Make yourself nice and comfortable.
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00:05:18,273 --> 00:05:22,152
I got a call out of the blue
from the attorney, Mr. Cataldo.
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00:05:22,319 --> 00:05:26,031
What he said is,
"Doc, we got this case
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00:05:26,198 --> 00:05:29,702
that we don't know what's going on
and we can't figure out...
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Um... Give us a hand."
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00:05:37,668 --> 00:05:39,420
I was originally called in
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to see whether Conrad Roy's medicationhad made him suicidal.
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He was on psychiatric drugs,antidepressants,
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00:05:52,058 --> 00:05:56,687
and if you look at the research
on what the psych drugs do...
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00:05:56,854 --> 00:05:58,439
they can cause suicide.
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00:05:59,899 --> 00:06:03,361
I concluded it was
a contributing factor,
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but not an overwhelming factor,
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because there were many other
things impinging on Conrad.
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00:06:23,673 --> 00:06:27,469
Conrad was reacting
to a very unhappy,
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angry, and at times,
violent divorce. We know that.
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The father charged the motherwith assault.
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There're all these thingscoming to bear on him.
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Then I found out that Michelle was...
on psychiatric drugs too.
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00:06:49,867 --> 00:06:51,577
And so, we have these two kids;
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00:06:51,744 --> 00:06:54,538
they're not star crossed,
they're drug crossed.
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00:06:55,581 --> 00:07:00,628
When did Michelle Carter start,
uh, consuming SSRIs?
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She started Prozac
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on February 17, 2011,
uh, ten milligrams.
84
00:07:10,470 --> 00:07:13,473
And, uh,
she was just a young girl then,
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fourteen going on 15.
86
00:07:15,642 --> 00:07:17,102
Okay, thank you.
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Prozac greatly increase the riskof suicide in young people her age.
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And she never should'vebeen given Prozac
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because she was bulimic,
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00:07:32,242 --> 00:07:35,871
and that would increasethe power of Prozac over her.
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00:07:36,038 --> 00:07:39,374
And not long after
her first exposure to Prozac,
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she climbed up on a stool
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00:07:41,835 --> 00:07:44,338
and put a noose around her neck
in her closet.
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00:08:04,233 --> 00:08:07,486
Now at the same moment, Conrad Roy,
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00:08:07,653 --> 00:08:10,239
whom at that point she thought
was a sweet boyfriend
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00:08:10,406 --> 00:08:12,200
without any serious problems,
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was admitted to a psychiatric hospital
for a serious suicide attempt.
98
00:09:04,127 --> 00:09:07,673
So now Michelle, who's a youngster,
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00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:10,843
who's on Prozac at the time,
100
00:09:11,009 --> 00:09:14,722
is dealing
with this huge disclosure.
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00:09:14,888 --> 00:09:18,142
It's... And he is saying
"I'm not who you thought I was."
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00:09:21,145 --> 00:09:23,731
And furthermore,as announced to her
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00:09:23,898 --> 00:09:27,359
that voices are telling himselfto kill himself tonight.
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00:09:36,202 --> 00:09:38,579
Michelle becomes desperate.
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00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:42,834
Conrad won't answer her.
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And she thinks he's killed himself.
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00:09:58,266 --> 00:10:02,979
Conrad, at least four times,attempted suicide,
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00:10:03,146 --> 00:10:05,231
once nearly killing himself.
109
00:10:07,275 --> 00:10:09,653
He overdosed on acetaminophen.
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00:10:11,154 --> 00:10:12,822
And the EMTs call me.
111
00:10:14,407 --> 00:10:16,243
And, um, they ask, they're like,
112
00:10:16,409 --> 00:10:20,330
"Well, he threw...
You know, threw up a lot.
113
00:10:20,497 --> 00:10:23,542
Do you want him to be seen?"
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00:10:23,709 --> 00:10:26,503
I said "Absolutely."
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00:10:40,142 --> 00:10:43,103
He almost needed
a liver transplant at that time.
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00:10:44,396 --> 00:10:46,357
He said he would never
do that again.
117
00:10:46,523 --> 00:10:48,484
He said, "I promise you
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I will nev...
never do that again."
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I said, "You know that if you died,
120
00:10:57,034 --> 00:11:02,123
mom would want to die too.
You know that, right?"
121
00:11:21,642 --> 00:11:25,395
And how is this relevantto your clinical analysis of this case?
122
00:11:25,562 --> 00:11:27,981
Well, it has to do with the...
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00:11:29,274 --> 00:11:31,443
effects of Conrad...
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00:11:33,112 --> 00:11:36,031
on what will eventually become
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00:11:37,408 --> 00:11:41,328
her idea taken from him
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00:11:42,329 --> 00:11:44,665
that he's going to kill himself,
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00:11:45,749 --> 00:11:51,005
and that all he cares about
is doing it swiftly and quickly
128
00:11:51,172 --> 00:11:53,591
and not botching it.
129
00:11:53,758 --> 00:11:58,346
She's following his lead
into a very dark place.
130
00:13:06,999 --> 00:13:09,001
Probably the most common
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00:13:09,168 --> 00:13:11,837
adverse effect of
antidepressants is nightmares.
132
00:13:12,004 --> 00:13:13,964
So, this is just spot on.
133
00:13:14,131 --> 00:13:18,594
She's clearly out of her mind,
and so is he.
134
00:14:01,221 --> 00:14:03,932
You can't lookat one text message.
135
00:14:04,099 --> 00:14:09,020
You have to look at thetotality of their relationship.
136
00:14:09,187 --> 00:14:10,605
You have somebody, Conrad Roy,
137
00:14:10,772 --> 00:14:14,026
who has been suicidal
for a very long time,
138
00:14:14,192 --> 00:14:17,946
really, at this point in time,
intent on killing himself.
139
00:14:19,740 --> 00:14:22,451
She, if you look at herfor a year and a half,
140
00:14:22,618 --> 00:14:26,371
never wanted him to die.Didn't want him to kill himself.
141
00:14:29,375 --> 00:14:31,460
What caused her to switch?
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00:14:33,379 --> 00:14:34,838
It struck me
143
00:14:35,005 --> 00:14:38,217
that she was in an extremelyabusive relationship.
144
00:14:38,384 --> 00:14:42,221
There's this constant harassing of her
145
00:14:42,388 --> 00:14:45,307
while he's not telling family.
146
00:14:45,474 --> 00:14:47,435
And at one point toward the end,
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00:14:47,601 --> 00:14:49,186
Conrad tells her...
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00:14:49,353 --> 00:14:52,690
"The one thingthat will make me hate you
149
00:14:52,857 --> 00:14:56,360
is if you tell anyonethat I'm suicidal."
150
00:14:56,527 --> 00:14:59,030
And she listens.
151
00:15:00,615 --> 00:15:02,116
Michelle got it all.
152
00:15:02,283 --> 00:15:04,160
There's this huge pyramid
of his misery
153
00:15:04,327 --> 00:15:06,579
and at the bottom of it
is sitting Michelle Carter
154
00:15:06,746 --> 00:15:08,289
and nobody else.
155
00:15:08,456 --> 00:15:13,211
Conrad told Michelle
that his mother knew
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00:15:13,378 --> 00:15:14,921
that he was suicidal.
157
00:15:23,179 --> 00:15:26,099
He actually screenshotted her, Michelle,
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his laptop, of methodshow to kill yourself.
159
00:15:33,981 --> 00:15:36,192
Michelle says, "Well,didn't she say anything to you?"
160
00:15:36,358 --> 00:15:38,069
And Conrad responded,
161
00:15:38,235 --> 00:15:40,946
"No, she just looked at itand walked away."
162
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What Conrad is doing is manipulating
163
00:15:50,248 --> 00:15:54,168
and lying to Michelle,saying, "My mom even knows."
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The whole story became deeper,
165
00:16:03,303 --> 00:16:08,266
and the theme was running
the exact opposite
166
00:16:08,433 --> 00:16:12,353
of the DA's witch hunt.
167
00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:16,483
In fact, both were victims
of the psychiatric drugs.
168
00:16:17,776 --> 00:16:20,987
What is a involuntary intoxication?
169
00:16:21,154 --> 00:16:25,742
Well, by definition,
it's an intoxication,
170
00:16:25,909 --> 00:16:27,911
which means that
171
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the neurochemistry of the brain
has been disrupted.
172
00:16:32,416 --> 00:16:36,211
And that this intoxication
is observable
173
00:16:36,378 --> 00:16:40,465
through thoughts,
behaviors, activities.
174
00:16:42,259 --> 00:16:47,389
They involve, in general,
things like impulsivity,
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00:16:47,556 --> 00:16:49,433
impaired judgment...
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00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:51,810
And specifically, Dr. Breggin,
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00:16:51,977 --> 00:16:54,355
as to Michelle Carter,
did you have an opinion
178
00:16:54,521 --> 00:16:57,608
of whether or not she was
involuntarily intoxicated?
179
00:16:58,734 --> 00:17:01,111
-Yes.
-And what is that opinion?
180
00:17:01,278 --> 00:17:04,281
She was involuntarily intoxicated.
181
00:17:04,448 --> 00:17:11,414
She was taking Prozac
and she then switched to Celexa.
182
00:17:11,580 --> 00:17:14,625
And are you able to pinpoint
183
00:17:14,792 --> 00:17:17,670
about when she became
involuntarily intoxicated?
184
00:17:17,837 --> 00:17:20,673
Yes, on July 2nd,
185
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she begins to help him go to heaven.
186
00:17:35,355 --> 00:17:39,150
At this point, she hasan involuntary intoxication
187
00:17:39,317 --> 00:17:43,405
where she's not forming
a criminal intent,
188
00:17:43,571 --> 00:17:46,032
"I'm gonna harm him."
189
00:17:46,199 --> 00:17:49,077
She's not doing something
she thinks is criminal,
190
00:17:49,244 --> 00:17:50,954
"This is bad."
191
00:17:52,205 --> 00:17:53,790
She's thinking
192
00:17:53,957 --> 00:17:57,294
that it's a good thingto help him die.
193
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That she can mitigatethe circumstances.
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That she can then goand help his family.
195
00:18:14,686 --> 00:18:18,482
And like anybody who's
in a hypomanic state,
196
00:18:18,649 --> 00:18:21,068
she gets very angry
when she's disrupted.
197
00:18:30,661 --> 00:18:32,621
This is now the way.
198
00:18:32,788 --> 00:18:35,666
She's found the way to finally help.
199
00:22:09,258 --> 00:22:13,012
Involuntary intoxicationis a diagnosis that I never use,
200
00:22:13,178 --> 00:22:17,057
and that most of the colleaguesthat I know don't use.
201
00:22:17,224 --> 00:22:19,477
But that is using
forensic psychiatry.
202
00:22:19,643 --> 00:22:23,022
So, without, you know,
without any consensus
203
00:22:23,189 --> 00:22:25,941
by our profession that
it's even real.
204
00:22:26,108 --> 00:22:29,737
In some children and adolescentstaking antidepressants,
205
00:22:29,904 --> 00:22:31,781
it can be disinhibiting.
206
00:22:31,948 --> 00:22:34,075
I wouldn't call it drastic,
you know?
207
00:22:34,242 --> 00:22:38,579
But, uh, if you become manic
when you're on antidepressant,
208
00:22:38,746 --> 00:22:40,790
that's pretty drastic, you know,
209
00:22:40,957 --> 00:22:44,294
and that happens in a very
small proportion of cases.
210
00:22:48,673 --> 00:22:50,425
You may resume when
you are ready, Miss Rayburn.
211
00:22:50,592 --> 00:22:51,968
Thank you very much, Your Honor.
212
00:22:52,135 --> 00:22:53,845
-Uh, good morning, sir.
-Morning.
213
00:22:54,012 --> 00:22:56,097
You would agree with me
at the time
214
00:22:56,264 --> 00:22:59,184
between July 2nd
and July 12th, 2014,
215
00:22:59,351 --> 00:23:01,645
the defendant was going
to camp, correct?
216
00:23:01,811 --> 00:23:03,313
- Yes.
- Okay.
217
00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:06,358
She was interacting with
friends at times, correct?
218
00:23:06,525 --> 00:23:08,485
- Yes.
- She's seeking therapy
219
00:23:08,652 --> 00:23:11,822
-and talking to her therapist, correct?
-Yes.
220
00:23:11,988 --> 00:23:14,449
And you would agree with me that
the therapist describes her appearance
221
00:23:14,616 --> 00:23:17,077
as good eye contact,
well groomed, correct? Okay?
222
00:23:17,244 --> 00:23:18,662
- Yeah.
- All right.
223
00:23:18,829 --> 00:23:22,583
Short-term memory intact.
Judgment good. Correct?
224
00:23:22,749 --> 00:23:25,586
-Behavior, no abnormalities, correct?
-Yeah.
225
00:23:25,752 --> 00:23:27,212
Her affect is appropriate.
226
00:23:27,379 --> 00:23:30,048
Her short, uh, long-term memory's
intact, correct?
227
00:23:30,215 --> 00:23:31,633
-Yeah.
-Her insight is good.
228
00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:33,177
-Correct?
-Yeah.
229
00:23:33,344 --> 00:23:36,388
And you're now telling us that she
didn't know right from wrong
230
00:23:36,555 --> 00:23:37,932
at that same time?
231
00:23:38,098 --> 00:23:40,434
Well, actually,
she thought she was doing
232
00:23:40,601 --> 00:23:42,561
absolutely the right thing.
233
00:23:42,728 --> 00:23:44,271
You would agree with me, though,
234
00:23:44,438 --> 00:23:48,901
that on July 10th
into July 11th 2014,
235
00:23:49,068 --> 00:23:50,986
the defendant is telling friends,
236
00:23:51,153 --> 00:23:54,782
specifically Sam Boardman,
that Conrad is missing.
237
00:23:54,949 --> 00:23:56,325
- Correct?
- Yes.
238
00:23:56,492 --> 00:23:58,119
But at the same time,
you would agree with me
239
00:23:58,286 --> 00:24:00,537
-she's communicating with Conrad?
-Yes.
240
00:24:00,704 --> 00:24:03,415
She's telling people he's missing,
she doesn't know where he is.
241
00:24:03,582 --> 00:24:04,958
She's getting updates
from the family.
242
00:24:05,125 --> 00:24:06,835
All while speaking to him, correct?
243
00:24:07,002 --> 00:24:11,632
Yes. It's very strange.
I can't find a rational reason
244
00:24:11,798 --> 00:24:13,550
why she would ever have been
doing this.
245
00:24:13,717 --> 00:24:16,720
I think it's part of a very
confused, delusional state
246
00:24:16,887 --> 00:24:18,972
that... Where she's coming
in and out of, uh,
247
00:24:19,139 --> 00:24:20,516
"What's happening?
What am I doing?"
248
00:24:20,682 --> 00:24:22,101
How about the rational reason
249
00:24:22,267 --> 00:24:24,561
that she wanted to know
how her friends would react
250
00:24:24,728 --> 00:24:26,480
when he killed himself?
251
00:24:26,647 --> 00:24:29,775
No. I can't imagine that
would be motivating her
252
00:24:29,942 --> 00:24:34,405
to be opening up this
horrible, bizarre activity
253
00:24:34,572 --> 00:24:36,615
she's involved in. I...
254
00:24:36,782 --> 00:24:40,578
I mean, you would expect her
not to do anything like that.
255
00:24:40,745 --> 00:24:43,330
But she's saying
she's concerned for him,
256
00:24:43,497 --> 00:24:47,668
while at the same time
talking to him.
257
00:24:47,835 --> 00:24:49,378
Yeah. I think it's really crazy.
258
00:24:49,545 --> 00:24:53,549
And in fact, Sam does,
I would suggest to you,
259
00:24:53,716 --> 00:24:56,093
she then shows concern.
Correct?
260
00:24:56,260 --> 00:24:59,055
- Well, of course, yeah.
- Okay.
261
00:24:59,222 --> 00:25:04,352
Focusing now on July 12th
into the 13th. 9:48 PM.
262
00:25:04,519 --> 00:25:07,105
To Sam:
"I'm so fucking stupid.
263
00:25:07,272 --> 00:25:08,856
The generator he got
the other day...
264
00:25:09,023 --> 00:25:10,859
I think that he...
the noise I heard...
265
00:25:11,025 --> 00:25:13,445
I just looked it up;
they emit carbon monoxide.
266
00:25:13,611 --> 00:25:15,196
I think he poisoned himself
with it."
267
00:25:15,363 --> 00:25:17,532
And so it goes, correct?
268
00:25:18,700 --> 00:25:20,618
- That's actually a question.
- Yeah. Yeah.
269
00:25:20,785 --> 00:25:22,287
Okay. Now,
you would agree with me, sir,
270
00:25:22,454 --> 00:25:25,040
that there were text messages
between the defendant
271
00:25:25,206 --> 00:25:28,418
and Conrad Roy about exactly
how he was gonna kill himself.
272
00:25:28,585 --> 00:25:30,003
-Weren't there?
-Yeah. Absolutely.
273
00:25:30,170 --> 00:25:32,422
Okay. So, her telling Sam,
274
00:25:32,589 --> 00:25:36,927
"I think the noise
that I heard, uh, I looked...
275
00:25:37,094 --> 00:25:39,262
I think the generator he got today,
276
00:25:39,429 --> 00:25:41,515
I think that was the noise
I heard. I looked it up.
277
00:25:41,682 --> 00:25:43,892
They can emit carbon monoxide."
278
00:25:44,059 --> 00:25:45,853
She already knew that, didn't she?
279
00:25:46,019 --> 00:25:47,437
- Yes.
- Okay.
280
00:25:49,189 --> 00:25:54,403
And now talking to Ally,
she says, "Ha, ha, yeah.
281
00:25:54,570 --> 00:25:56,947
But I don't know;
he's in a bad place right now,"
282
00:25:57,114 --> 00:25:58,824
talking to Con... about Conrad,
correct?
283
00:25:58,991 --> 00:26:00,367
Yes.
284
00:26:00,534 --> 00:26:01,911
She's telling Ally
he's in a bad place.
285
00:26:02,077 --> 00:26:04,663
He's dead, sir, at that point.
286
00:26:04,830 --> 00:26:06,791
Did you factor that
in your opinion then?
287
00:26:06,957 --> 00:26:11,379
The fact that she knows he's dead,
and in saying, "Ha, ha, yeah.
288
00:26:11,545 --> 00:26:14,382
But I don't know;
he's in a bad place right now."
289
00:26:14,548 --> 00:26:16,676
Did you factor that
into your opinion?
290
00:26:17,802 --> 00:26:19,303
Yes, I factored every...
291
00:26:19,470 --> 00:26:21,556
every bit of this
into my opinion, yes.
292
00:26:21,722 --> 00:26:24,308
So, she's telling
one person one thing
293
00:26:24,475 --> 00:26:26,519
and other people
other things, correct?
294
00:26:26,686 --> 00:26:28,354
Yes, she is.
295
00:26:28,521 --> 00:26:30,023
So now, the next morning,
296
00:26:30,189 --> 00:26:34,611
July 13th, 2014 at 9:02,
her mother texts her, correct?
297
00:26:34,777 --> 00:26:36,195
Yes.
298
00:26:36,362 --> 00:26:39,157
"Hi, Michelle.
What are you doing?" Right?
299
00:26:39,324 --> 00:26:41,326
Michelle responds,
"I'm at home."
300
00:26:41,493 --> 00:26:44,079
Mom says, "Doing what?"
301
00:26:44,245 --> 00:26:47,207
Michelle responds,
"Nothing, ha, ha."
302
00:26:47,374 --> 00:26:49,542
Doesn't tell her mother anything
about what's going on,
303
00:26:49,709 --> 00:26:51,336
- does she?
- No.
304
00:26:51,503 --> 00:26:54,339
-She only tells her friends, correct?
-Yes.
305
00:26:54,506 --> 00:26:57,175
These same friends
that she has been asking
306
00:26:57,342 --> 00:27:00,679
to hang out with her
for the past year
307
00:27:00,846 --> 00:27:03,140
and who routinely
don't hang out with her.
308
00:27:03,306 --> 00:27:06,435
-Isn't that true?
-Oh, I don't know that.
309
00:27:06,601 --> 00:27:08,395
Would you factor it
into your opinion,
310
00:27:08,562 --> 00:27:11,273
the fact that these...
the defendant wanted to hang out
311
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:14,193
with her friends and her friends
didn't have time with her that summer?
312
00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:17,863
Could that impact
your opinion?
313
00:27:18,030 --> 00:27:20,908
That it turned her
into a crazy person
314
00:27:21,075 --> 00:27:22,701
who transformed her character,
315
00:27:22,868 --> 00:27:24,411
-became grandiose...
-No.
316
00:27:24,578 --> 00:27:26,830
...and encouraged a young man
whom she loved
317
00:27:26,997 --> 00:27:30,292
and had been working with a...
again and again to...
318
00:27:30,459 --> 00:27:32,545
to get better,
that she turned on him
319
00:27:32,711 --> 00:27:35,047
and started to encourage him to die?
320
00:27:35,214 --> 00:27:36,799
No, I don't think so.
321
00:27:36,966 --> 00:27:40,052
She's psychotic, deluded.
She's disturbed.
322
00:27:40,219 --> 00:27:44,307
Everything you're describing
is why I concluded
323
00:27:44,473 --> 00:27:47,310
she's got an involuntary
intoxication.
324
00:27:49,395 --> 00:27:52,064
-All right, just coming in. You ready?
-Yep.
325
00:27:52,231 --> 00:27:53,608
So far this morning
we've been hearing from
326
00:27:53,775 --> 00:27:56,069
Dr. Peter Breggin, that paints
a very different picture
327
00:27:56,235 --> 00:27:58,655
than what we saw last week
in those messages.
328
00:27:58,821 --> 00:28:02,784
And the biggest question here now
is will Michelle Carter testify?
329
00:28:02,951 --> 00:28:04,452
Are you gonna call Michelle
to the stand tomorrow?
330
00:28:04,619 --> 00:28:06,496
Uh. I have no comment.
We're going to proceed tomorrow
331
00:28:06,663 --> 00:28:08,540
with the continuation of the trial.
332
00:28:08,706 --> 00:28:11,084
Part of the drama of this case
333
00:28:11,251 --> 00:28:14,211
was the adult world confrontingwhat teenagers are like.
334
00:28:14,378 --> 00:28:17,006
All right, guys. Can you stop?
You've already got her picture.
335
00:28:18,215 --> 00:28:21,093
And I think for the parents
it must be sort of impossible
336
00:28:21,260 --> 00:28:22,636
to understand what happened,
337
00:28:22,803 --> 00:28:26,223
'cause it's so farfrom what is, you know,
338
00:28:26,390 --> 00:28:30,269
acceptable human behavior,what she did in the last few weeks.
339
00:28:31,604 --> 00:28:35,566
And I think the biggest mysteryof the story is not...
340
00:28:35,733 --> 00:28:37,276
why Michelle Carter
did what she did,
341
00:28:37,443 --> 00:28:39,820
but what Michelle Carter
thought she was doing.
342
00:28:42,073 --> 00:28:44,075
What's reallyinteresting about this case
343
00:28:44,242 --> 00:28:46,035
is that we havethis very detailed record
344
00:28:46,202 --> 00:28:48,329
of what was said between them.
345
00:28:48,496 --> 00:28:51,290
This detailed record
of their minds coming together
346
00:28:51,457 --> 00:28:53,543
and interacting with each other.
347
00:28:53,710 --> 00:28:55,378
In the past we wouldn't have
had that record.
348
00:28:55,545 --> 00:28:58,631
All we would've had was
a person commits suicide
349
00:28:58,798 --> 00:29:01,259
and we're all left wondering
what happened.
350
00:29:02,343 --> 00:29:04,220
Are we talking aboutyoung psychopaths?
351
00:29:04,387 --> 00:29:07,599
Are we talking aboutnarcissistic personality disorders,
352
00:29:07,766 --> 00:29:09,142
borderline disorders?
353
00:29:09,309 --> 00:29:12,270
Are we just talking about
young, troubled kids
354
00:29:12,437 --> 00:29:15,732
who don't have a well-developed
frontal cortex
355
00:29:15,899 --> 00:29:17,692
and just don't have
the self-awareness
356
00:29:17,859 --> 00:29:20,529
and the ability to see
what they're doing?
357
00:29:20,695 --> 00:29:23,073
But now because we have thisrecord of this dialogue
358
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:25,742
between them, we havethis opportunity to see
359
00:29:25,909 --> 00:29:28,161
what was going oninside their minds,
360
00:29:28,328 --> 00:29:32,040
inside that thought processbetween the two of them.
361
00:30:02,279 --> 00:30:05,533
The idea that this was a casewhere a girlfriend killed a boyfriend
362
00:30:05,700 --> 00:30:07,243
is really weird.
363
00:30:07,410 --> 00:30:09,120
The way that I read it is...
364
00:30:09,287 --> 00:30:11,956
the relationship was much more
Michelle's fantasy
365
00:30:12,123 --> 00:30:15,543
and Michelle's idea
than it was Conrad's.
366
00:30:16,627 --> 00:30:20,923
Conrad was alternatelykind of mean to her,
367
00:30:21,090 --> 00:30:23,009
kind of sweet to her...
368
00:30:23,176 --> 00:30:26,804
kind of negging herfor most of the relationship.
369
00:30:28,932 --> 00:30:32,644
They really weirdly connected
on this slightly mean,
370
00:30:32,811 --> 00:30:35,230
slightly competitive level
that they both had.
371
00:30:39,192 --> 00:30:43,488
They had this kind of gamethat they would play together.
372
00:30:46,450 --> 00:30:47,868
They would finisheach other's sentences,
373
00:30:48,034 --> 00:30:51,163
they would play weird word gamesand free associations.
374
00:31:02,758 --> 00:31:05,177
And it's, like,kind of sexy, kind of weird,
375
00:31:05,344 --> 00:31:07,930
kind of excitingif you're a teenage boy.
376
00:31:09,932 --> 00:31:11,850
They both sort of likedthis kind of
377
00:31:12,017 --> 00:31:14,103
brinkmanship with each other.
378
00:31:21,443 --> 00:31:23,070
They talked a lot about
379
00:31:23,237 --> 00:31:26,490
"Let's meet, let's hang out.When are we going to hang out?"
380
00:31:26,657 --> 00:31:28,075
They'd come to the brinkof seeing each other
381
00:31:28,242 --> 00:31:29,660
and then they'd always back away.
382
00:31:29,827 --> 00:31:32,622
So, their whole relationship
was the text messages.
383
00:31:41,214 --> 00:31:44,676
The fact thatwe now all live our lives
384
00:31:44,842 --> 00:31:47,637
via smart phones
385
00:31:47,804 --> 00:31:51,266
is completely central to this case.
386
00:31:51,432 --> 00:31:54,602
It's every parent's worst nightmare.
387
00:31:56,062 --> 00:31:59,649
You have two teenagersconnecting in the most
388
00:31:59,816 --> 00:32:02,402
cataclysmic possible way.
389
00:32:04,279 --> 00:32:05,947
Conrad, he found someone
390
00:32:06,114 --> 00:32:09,534
who he could confidethese thoughts in.
391
00:32:09,701 --> 00:32:15,582
And Michelle found this accessto immediate sort of intimacy.
392
00:32:17,876 --> 00:32:20,087
When peopleare communicating through text,
393
00:32:20,253 --> 00:32:22,339
strange things can start to happen.
394
00:32:22,506 --> 00:32:25,092
You don't necessarily
experience the other person
395
00:32:25,259 --> 00:32:26,801
as another person.
396
00:32:26,968 --> 00:32:28,970
You can't see them,
you can't hear them,
397
00:32:29,136 --> 00:32:31,389
you can't see their body language.
398
00:32:32,765 --> 00:32:35,727
You have this voice with youall day long
399
00:32:35,893 --> 00:32:39,230
that will suddenly pop upand say things to you.
400
00:32:40,606 --> 00:32:42,483
I think in some wayspeople experience that
401
00:32:42,650 --> 00:32:44,193
as a voice in their head,
402
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:47,405
almost as if it's likean internal hallucination.
403
00:32:48,990 --> 00:32:51,242
You're really interacting
with these characters
404
00:32:51,409 --> 00:32:55,246
inside your mind without really
understanding,
405
00:32:55,413 --> 00:32:57,165
on a more conscious, rational level,
406
00:32:57,332 --> 00:32:59,834
these text messages are coming
from another person
407
00:33:00,001 --> 00:33:02,045
with their own life
and their own thoughts
408
00:33:02,212 --> 00:33:04,172
and their own feelings.
409
00:33:10,303 --> 00:33:13,724
In some ways,the big moral failing from Michelle
410
00:33:13,890 --> 00:33:18,604
has to do with an eerie inability
to fully apprehend reality.
411
00:33:39,166 --> 00:33:41,502
There's one levelof the conversation
412
00:33:41,669 --> 00:33:45,089
that is a kid that's
gonna kill himself.
413
00:33:46,507 --> 00:33:50,261
And then there's another levelthat's a romantic fantasy.
414
00:34:38,435 --> 00:34:41,229
There is an amazingintensity to the messages
415
00:34:41,396 --> 00:34:45,442
that's totally incommensuratewith the relationship they had before.
416
00:34:48,445 --> 00:34:51,782
And what I found is thatthere was all of these references
417
00:34:51,949 --> 00:34:55,411
to different TV shows,to movies, to songs...
418
00:34:57,413 --> 00:35:00,249
But by far, by far
the most common source
419
00:35:00,416 --> 00:35:02,918
for that kind of language was Glee.
420
00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:08,716
Glee is a TV show that is setin an American high school
421
00:35:08,883 --> 00:35:13,012
and the stars are Lea Micheleand Cory Monteith,
422
00:35:13,179 --> 00:35:14,597
who are not only the starsof the show
423
00:35:14,764 --> 00:35:16,474
but were a couple in real life.
424
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:20,144
And Michelle was obsessedwith Lea Michele.
425
00:35:22,730 --> 00:35:25,900
So, often when she was writingto Conrad or writing about Conrad,
426
00:35:26,067 --> 00:35:31,239
she would borrow from text
that was in this TV show.
427
00:35:31,406 --> 00:35:34,033
You are my first love.
428
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:40,790
And I want more than anything
for you to be my last.
429
00:35:46,963 --> 00:35:49,007
And I think she connected
with Lea Michele
430
00:35:49,174 --> 00:35:52,636
on kind of a profound level
that went beyond
431
00:35:52,802 --> 00:35:56,389
what a normal teen identifying
with a star...
432
00:35:56,556 --> 00:35:59,059
you know, might feel like.
433
00:35:59,226 --> 00:36:02,103
A star of the popular show Glee
found dead
434
00:36:02,270 --> 00:36:04,856
in his hotel roomin Vancouver. The body...
435
00:36:05,023 --> 00:36:10,070
In 2013, Cory Monteithoverdosed in a hotel room and died.
436
00:36:10,237 --> 00:36:12,114
This was a year,
basically, to the day,
437
00:36:12,281 --> 00:36:13,824
before Conrad died.
438
00:36:13,991 --> 00:36:16,910
The cast of Glee
puts on a tribute episode.
439
00:36:20,831 --> 00:36:23,500
Lea Michele sings a songin his honor
440
00:36:23,667 --> 00:36:25,169
and everyone's devastated
441
00:36:25,335 --> 00:36:27,588
because the character has diedin the show.
442
00:36:27,755 --> 00:36:31,133
So, it's an incredibly eeriepiece of television, because...
443
00:36:31,300 --> 00:36:34,386
you know that this actual actor
OD'd in a hotel
444
00:36:34,553 --> 00:36:37,431
somewhere in Canada,
but in the world of the show,
445
00:36:37,598 --> 00:36:40,141
this football quarterback
has died tragically
446
00:36:40,308 --> 00:36:44,354
and everyone is singing
pop songs to mourn him.
447
00:36:45,397 --> 00:36:49,442
And Michelle introduces that to Conradin October 2013.
448
00:36:51,903 --> 00:36:54,656
Michelle says, "I just want youto know how much I love you
449
00:36:54,823 --> 00:36:57,993
and it really made me think of whatit would be like if you weren't here."
450
00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:00,912
Totally out of the blue
from what was happening.
451
00:37:05,417 --> 00:37:08,420
It's sort of the first momentwhere you realize that Michelle
452
00:37:08,587 --> 00:37:10,547
has, like, a completely other story
453
00:37:10,714 --> 00:37:13,550
that's going on that has nothing
to do with Conrad specifically.
454
00:37:15,135 --> 00:37:19,056
But the idea thatshe would be the person in Glee
455
00:37:19,223 --> 00:37:21,517
who had a boyfriendwho was the quarterback
456
00:37:21,684 --> 00:37:23,435
who had sort of tragically died,
457
00:37:23,602 --> 00:37:28,482
I think was kind of more real to her
than it probably is to most people.
458
00:37:29,608 --> 00:37:33,446
-I had it all planned out.
-Now what?
459
00:37:34,864 --> 00:37:38,492
-I don't know, something different.
-Maybe something better.
460
00:37:38,659 --> 00:37:40,828
I just... I don't think
that that's possible.
461
00:37:42,580 --> 00:37:44,165
He was my person.
462
00:37:51,422 --> 00:37:53,925
One of the eerie partsof the text messages
463
00:37:54,092 --> 00:37:57,345
that Michelle sent to her friendswhere she quotes from Lea Michele,
464
00:37:57,512 --> 00:38:00,098
is that they don't all come from Glee;
465
00:38:00,265 --> 00:38:03,226
they come from interviews
that the real actress is giving
466
00:38:03,393 --> 00:38:07,981
about her real dead boyfriend
to real talk show hosts.
467
00:38:08,148 --> 00:38:10,400
I literally lived
every day of my life
468
00:38:10,567 --> 00:38:13,320
feeling like the luckiest girl
in the whole world.
469
00:38:13,486 --> 00:38:16,114
I just... I just thought
he was the greatest man.
470
00:38:21,286 --> 00:38:23,413
This is weird.
This is really weird.
471
00:38:27,918 --> 00:38:32,965
I think it translates to that Michellehad little if any idea of who she was.
472
00:38:33,131 --> 00:38:36,927
That she identifiedextremely strongly
473
00:38:37,094 --> 00:38:39,596
with this other world,this other life.
474
00:38:57,740 --> 00:39:01,118
Alice was a teammateof Michelle's
475
00:39:01,285 --> 00:39:05,331
on a travel softball teamin the spring of 2012.
476
00:39:06,582 --> 00:39:09,335
They instantly became
incredibly close.
477
00:39:09,502 --> 00:39:12,630
They went to, uh,
each other's houses,
478
00:39:12,797 --> 00:39:15,591
they slept over, they took
a team trip to Montreal
479
00:39:15,758 --> 00:39:19,887
and when other, uh, kids on the team
were going out to eat as a group,
480
00:39:20,054 --> 00:39:21,597
they would kind of sneak off
and eat together,
481
00:39:21,764 --> 00:39:23,808
just the two of them.
482
00:39:24,934 --> 00:39:27,228
It was an intense teen friendship
483
00:39:27,395 --> 00:39:30,231
that was almost likea love affair for Michelle.
484
00:39:51,795 --> 00:39:53,296
Kind of abruptly,
485
00:39:53,463 --> 00:39:55,215
right around the time
that Michelle met Conrad,
486
00:39:55,382 --> 00:39:57,426
Alice cut off contact with her.
487
00:40:01,388 --> 00:40:05,475
And in 2014, in the summer...
488
00:40:06,810 --> 00:40:11,482
Michelle, for some reason,
starts really missing Alice.
489
00:40:11,648 --> 00:40:14,234
And this is all happening
right around the time
490
00:40:14,401 --> 00:40:16,320
that Conrad is really suicidal.
491
00:40:24,078 --> 00:40:28,958
It seems to me that a lot of theemotional logic of the case
492
00:40:29,125 --> 00:40:31,252
really has more to do withthe friendship with Alice
493
00:40:31,419 --> 00:40:33,838
than it has to do withthe relationship with Conrad.
494
00:40:42,472 --> 00:40:44,515
I called Aliceand I said, you know,
495
00:40:44,682 --> 00:40:46,350
"I want to interview youbecause it sounds like
496
00:40:46,517 --> 00:40:48,770
Michelle was in love with you."
497
00:40:48,936 --> 00:40:51,439
And I met Alice and her mother.
498
00:40:52,689 --> 00:40:56,777
The reason they were meeting me
was to refute exactly that story.
499
00:40:56,944 --> 00:41:00,197
So, they were meeting to say,
500
00:41:00,364 --> 00:41:02,741
"Michelle is a sociopath,
and she made this all up.
501
00:41:02,908 --> 00:41:06,203
There was never anything physical
about the relationship."
502
00:41:07,246 --> 00:41:11,333
And if I didn't feel for Michellein any moment before that,
503
00:41:11,500 --> 00:41:13,335
in that moment I felt...
504
00:41:13,502 --> 00:41:16,088
a sympathy for how alone she was.
505
00:41:18,716 --> 00:41:21,510
She had this desire for thingsto be more intense,
506
00:41:21,677 --> 00:41:24,138
more like storiesthan they really were.
507
00:41:34,607 --> 00:41:36,109
She didn't live in reality;
508
00:41:36,275 --> 00:41:41,781
like, she lived in some kind
of fantasy... I think.
509
00:41:41,948 --> 00:41:46,160
But she's just not
a well person, so...
510
00:41:47,370 --> 00:41:51,624
How can you be that angry
or how can you be that...
511
00:41:55,670 --> 00:41:57,047
when someone is not...
512
00:41:58,506 --> 00:42:00,216
She's not well.
513
00:42:00,383 --> 00:42:02,677
That's all I say.
She's not well.
514
00:42:28,871 --> 00:42:31,999
The pattern that would happenin the last few weeks of Conrad's life
515
00:42:32,166 --> 00:42:35,502
is Conrad would say,"I'm gonna do it tonight."
516
00:42:35,669 --> 00:42:38,005
Then the next morning
he would be alive.
517
00:42:38,172 --> 00:42:41,508
Then a few days later he would say,
"Okay, I'm ready to do it tonight.
518
00:42:41,675 --> 00:42:43,344
I'm gonna do it,"
and then the next morning,
519
00:42:43,511 --> 00:42:45,221
he would be alive.
520
00:43:14,709 --> 00:43:17,629
July 12th, when Conrad dies,
521
00:43:17,795 --> 00:43:19,672
there's a kind of reality flicker,
522
00:43:19,839 --> 00:43:24,260
where it's not entirely clearthat it's actually happened.
523
00:43:38,483 --> 00:43:40,152
I'll tell you somethingreally weird.
524
00:43:40,318 --> 00:43:42,946
Five days before Conrad died,
Michelle goes to a movie theater
525
00:43:43,113 --> 00:43:44,865
and sees The Fault in Our Stars.
526
00:43:45,032 --> 00:43:48,035
And at the climax of the movie,
527
00:43:48,201 --> 00:43:49,995
the boy, Gus,
528
00:43:50,162 --> 00:43:53,832
is dying in a gas station in a Jeep.
529
00:43:53,999 --> 00:43:57,753
And he calls his girlfriendfor help.
530
00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:01,215
-Augustus.
-Hazel Grace.
531
00:44:01,382 --> 00:44:05,302
Hi. Oh, my God, hi.
Hi. I love you.
532
00:44:05,469 --> 00:44:08,138
And she calls the policeand he gets into an ambulance.
533
00:44:09,557 --> 00:44:11,851
So, it doesn't seem implausibleto me
534
00:44:12,017 --> 00:44:16,105
that there were other storiesin Michelle's mind
535
00:44:16,272 --> 00:44:20,151
that reminded her of what washappening at that moment.
536
00:44:20,318 --> 00:44:24,780
And I think the question iswhether or not
537
00:44:24,947 --> 00:44:27,575
she was kind of writingsome story in her head
538
00:44:27,742 --> 00:44:29,452
or writing some moviethat for some reason
539
00:44:29,619 --> 00:44:32,789
had to end with him dying.
540
00:44:32,955 --> 00:44:37,585
Or whether she literally hasno idea what she's done.
541
00:44:43,007 --> 00:44:47,554
What is obvious to meis that when
542
00:44:47,720 --> 00:44:52,308
he really needed someoneto understand how serious it was,
543
00:44:52,475 --> 00:44:58,231
and to go over his headto the cops, to his mother,
544
00:44:58,398 --> 00:44:59,900
she wasn't that person.
545
00:45:00,066 --> 00:45:04,696
And that's her kind of tragic failing.
546
00:45:06,822 --> 00:45:11,452
She, who wanted so badlyto have a best friend
547
00:45:11,619 --> 00:45:14,163
or someone she could sort ofhave this intense,
548
00:45:14,330 --> 00:45:16,582
dyadic affair with,
549
00:45:16,749 --> 00:45:18,167
had the opportunity to do that
550
00:45:18,334 --> 00:45:21,671
with this kid who that night
needed someone
551
00:45:21,838 --> 00:45:25,967
to be his friend and to say,"You are being fucking crazy
552
00:45:26,134 --> 00:45:29,262
and I'm calling the police."And...
553
00:45:29,429 --> 00:45:32,098
she didn't do it.
554
00:46:09,928 --> 00:46:11,805
"His death is my fault.
555
00:46:11,972 --> 00:46:14,475
Like, honestly,
I could've stopped him.
556
00:46:14,641 --> 00:46:17,186
I was on the phone with him
and he got out of the car
557
00:46:17,352 --> 00:46:20,439
because it was working.
And he got scared
558
00:46:20,606 --> 00:46:23,525
and I fucking told him
to get back in, Sam,
559
00:46:23,692 --> 00:46:27,446
because I knew he would do it
all over again the next day.
560
00:46:27,613 --> 00:46:31,116
And I couldn't have him live that way,
the way he was living, anymore.
561
00:46:31,283 --> 00:46:35,079
I couldn't do it.
I wouldn't let him."
562
00:46:35,246 --> 00:46:37,331
Those were her words, Your Honor.
563
00:46:37,498 --> 00:46:40,918
She says to her friend,
"If I had done something,
564
00:46:41,085 --> 00:46:44,422
if I had just told him
that I loved him,
565
00:46:44,589 --> 00:46:46,674
he would still be alive."
566
00:46:46,841 --> 00:46:48,676
Your Honor, this is a suicide,
567
00:46:48,843 --> 00:46:51,095
as I said in my opening
statement, and I say now.
568
00:46:51,262 --> 00:46:54,849
What we're dealing with
is a suicide and not a homicide.
569
00:46:55,016 --> 00:46:57,518
And this is the government's burden
570
00:46:57,685 --> 00:47:01,940
to prove that it was a homicide,
a manslaughter under the elements.
571
00:47:02,106 --> 00:47:04,526
Proof, not by a probable cause,
572
00:47:04,692 --> 00:47:06,069
not by clear
and convincing evidence,
573
00:47:06,236 --> 00:47:08,947
but proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
574
00:47:09,114 --> 00:47:12,784
If you go through and you look
at who actually created
575
00:47:12,951 --> 00:47:15,120
this suicidal situation,
576
00:47:15,286 --> 00:47:18,456
he brought her,
with all of her baggage,
577
00:47:18,623 --> 00:47:23,086
along for this sad journey of his
to eventually take his own life.
578
00:47:23,253 --> 00:47:24,963
Despite his issues,
579
00:47:25,130 --> 00:47:27,841
Conrad Roy was a very
self-aware young man.
580
00:47:28,008 --> 00:47:30,594
He knew when he needed help.
581
00:47:30,761 --> 00:47:32,804
You know what he said was
the one reason
582
00:47:32,971 --> 00:47:36,141
that he wanted to live?
His family.
583
00:47:36,308 --> 00:47:39,311
Before the defendant got
her hooks into him
584
00:47:39,478 --> 00:47:43,524
and started telling him to die
every day, he was hopeful.
585
00:47:43,690 --> 00:47:47,528
This is a gentlemanwho was sadly subjected
586
00:47:47,694 --> 00:47:49,363
to domestic violence.
587
00:47:49,530 --> 00:47:53,492
In fact, he tells that he had
daily intrusive thoughts
588
00:47:53,659 --> 00:47:55,494
of witnessing domestic violence.
589
00:47:55,661 --> 00:47:57,705
Those are his words
he's telling his therapist
590
00:47:57,872 --> 00:47:59,665
in the counselors
in the records, Your Honor.
591
00:47:59,832 --> 00:48:02,376
During the days
leading up to this, Your Honor,
592
00:48:02,543 --> 00:48:06,380
he told her, "I'm scared.
I don't have it in me.
593
00:48:06,547 --> 00:48:09,717
Another day wouldn't hurt."
594
00:48:09,884 --> 00:48:12,970
Every time he came up
with an excuse not to do it,
595
00:48:13,137 --> 00:48:15,389
she kicked his feet out
right from under him
596
00:48:15,556 --> 00:48:19,560
and told him why it didn't matter,
why he still needed to die.
597
00:48:19,727 --> 00:48:23,147
Mr. Roy himself
stated to Michelle Carter,
598
00:48:23,314 --> 00:48:24,691
"I want to die."
599
00:48:24,857 --> 00:48:27,819
Straight up. Those words.
"I want to die."
600
00:48:27,986 --> 00:48:30,863
To turn around and say
she's bullying him
601
00:48:31,030 --> 00:48:33,992
or she got him to do something
he didn't want to do,
602
00:48:34,159 --> 00:48:37,245
he's asking her,
"You want to help?"
603
00:48:37,412 --> 00:48:39,873
His words. "You want to help?"
604
00:48:40,039 --> 00:48:42,709
He doesn't tell her, "Stop this.
605
00:48:42,876 --> 00:48:47,130
Don't call me, lose my number,
stop texting me, block call,"
606
00:48:47,297 --> 00:48:50,550
nothing of the like.
He continues to use her
607
00:48:50,717 --> 00:48:54,012
for his support
to carry out his plan.
608
00:48:58,850 --> 00:49:00,602
He goes down to K-mart.
609
00:49:00,769 --> 00:49:04,523
He doesn't do a U-turn.Not seeking any help.
610
00:49:04,690 --> 00:49:07,776
Police department down the roada half a mile.
611
00:49:07,943 --> 00:49:10,779
He has his cell phone with him.What's he do?
612
00:49:10,946 --> 00:49:13,282
He actually... In the phone records,
he calls Michelle Carter.
613
00:49:13,449 --> 00:49:15,200
The first phone call
right there, he calls her.
614
00:49:15,367 --> 00:49:16,744
He doesn't call 911.
615
00:49:16,910 --> 00:49:19,037
Doesn't call anybody else,
he calls Michelle.
616
00:49:19,203 --> 00:49:20,663
I suggest why?
Because he knows
617
00:49:20,830 --> 00:49:23,833
that she is encouraging
and supporting his plan.
618
00:49:27,378 --> 00:49:29,297
She created the harm, Your Honor,
619
00:49:29,464 --> 00:49:32,801
when she told himto get back in the car.
620
00:49:32,967 --> 00:49:35,595
He was scared.
She knows he's gonna die
621
00:49:35,762 --> 00:49:39,266
and she says, "I could've done
something to stop it,
622
00:49:39,432 --> 00:49:43,228
and if I had, he would still
be alive today."
623
00:49:43,395 --> 00:49:46,857
She, by her own admission,
she caused his death.
624
00:49:47,023 --> 00:49:51,486
She knew at that moment
he did not want to die.
625
00:49:51,653 --> 00:49:55,490
The Commonwealth is conflating
this idea of "he was scared"
626
00:49:55,657 --> 00:49:57,743
as "he didn't want to do it."
627
00:49:57,910 --> 00:50:00,495
That's what they're doing;
they're saying he... he told...
628
00:50:00,662 --> 00:50:03,749
Michelle told a friend that
Conrad got out of the car
629
00:50:03,916 --> 00:50:05,709
and he was scared
because it was working.
630
00:50:05,876 --> 00:50:07,795
So, Conrad apparently knew
it was working
631
00:50:07,961 --> 00:50:09,505
and yet chose to get back in.
632
00:50:09,672 --> 00:50:11,548
But because he was scared or afraid,
633
00:50:11,715 --> 00:50:13,842
they want to basically
replace that word,
634
00:50:14,009 --> 00:50:17,263
that somehow, therefore, after that,
635
00:50:17,429 --> 00:50:20,516
by going back in the car,
that wasn't his own decision.
636
00:50:20,683 --> 00:50:22,935
He chose to get in that car.
637
00:50:23,102 --> 00:50:25,521
He chose to breathe in the fumes.
638
00:50:25,688 --> 00:50:27,148
There's no evidence
that Michelle Carter
639
00:50:27,314 --> 00:50:31,527
has any physical actions
whatsoever in this case.
640
00:50:31,694 --> 00:50:34,697
It was all of his physical activity.
641
00:50:34,864 --> 00:50:37,366
Did he get back in the car?
Yes.
642
00:50:37,533 --> 00:50:39,494
But she was the cause of that,
Your Honor;
643
00:50:39,660 --> 00:50:43,331
she ordered him back in that car
knowing what would happen.
644
00:50:43,498 --> 00:50:44,916
It's a new day and age, Your Honor.
645
00:50:45,083 --> 00:50:47,293
And the phones that we have now
646
00:50:47,460 --> 00:50:51,089
allow you to be
virtually present with somebody.
647
00:50:51,256 --> 00:50:54,384
People fall in love
on the Internet and via text.
648
00:50:54,551 --> 00:50:57,971
People bully via text
and the Internet.
649
00:50:58,138 --> 00:51:02,267
And you can encourage someone
to die via text
650
00:51:02,434 --> 00:51:05,812
and you can commit a crime via text.
651
00:51:05,979 --> 00:51:09,190
She absolutely knew
what she was doing.
652
00:51:09,357 --> 00:51:13,737
She absolutely knew it was wrong
and she absolutely
653
00:51:13,904 --> 00:51:16,114
caused the death
of this 18-year-old boy.
654
00:51:16,281 --> 00:51:18,116
And I ask you to find her guilty.
655
00:51:32,714 --> 00:51:35,134
This world is sick today,
in my opinion.
656
00:51:35,300 --> 00:51:37,302
No one has any morals.
657
00:51:37,469 --> 00:51:39,388
Lack of character.
658
00:51:39,555 --> 00:51:42,975
Uh. I just find it... I just
find it very troubling today.
659
00:51:43,142 --> 00:51:45,102
Because the right thing to do
would've been for her
660
00:51:45,269 --> 00:51:47,188
to go get him help.
661
00:51:47,354 --> 00:51:50,399
He wanted to get out of the car,
I believe. He did get out.
662
00:51:50,566 --> 00:51:54,320
She told him to get back in,
quote, unquote, and do it.
663
00:51:54,487 --> 00:51:57,657
I'm sorry, but she...
she deserves manslaughter.
664
00:51:57,823 --> 00:51:59,283
Absolutely.
665
00:51:59,450 --> 00:52:01,911
I honestly think
it was foul what she did.
666
00:52:02,078 --> 00:52:04,997
She really shouldn't have done that.
I mean, if you really love somebody,
667
00:52:05,164 --> 00:52:07,041
you don't encourage them
to kill themselves.
668
00:52:07,208 --> 00:52:09,252
That's just...
That's absolutely crazy.
669
00:52:09,419 --> 00:52:10,795
It's kind of like murder.
670
00:52:10,962 --> 00:52:12,672
it's basically murder,
is how I see it in my eyes.
671
00:52:12,839 --> 00:52:14,298
It's basically murder.
672
00:52:14,465 --> 00:52:17,135
She was pretty much saying,
"Just do it."
673
00:52:17,302 --> 00:52:18,928
But there's nothing
illegal about that.
674
00:52:19,095 --> 00:52:20,597
And then didn't he stop,
675
00:52:20,763 --> 00:52:22,140
and then she said,
"What are you doing?
676
00:52:22,307 --> 00:52:24,559
Get back in the car.
You already have it all set up.
677
00:52:24,726 --> 00:52:26,352
You know, just end it already."
678
00:52:26,519 --> 00:52:27,896
Wow.
679
00:52:28,063 --> 00:52:30,231
But that's more of
a moral thing, I think.
680
00:52:30,398 --> 00:52:31,775
But there's nothing illegal
about it.
681
00:52:31,941 --> 00:52:33,318
-There's actually nothing wrong with it.
-No, no.
682
00:52:33,485 --> 00:52:34,903
She's not guilty.
She didn't do anything illegal.
683
00:52:35,070 --> 00:52:37,531
-No, she didn't...
-It was wrong, but it's not illegal.
684
00:52:37,697 --> 00:52:39,449
That's like me telling you
to jump off a bridge.
685
00:52:39,616 --> 00:52:42,160
-If you jump off it, is it my fault?
-Yeah.
686
00:52:42,327 --> 00:52:45,789
She would've said to him,
"Jump... Jump over the bridge."
687
00:52:45,956 --> 00:52:47,916
He would've done it,
so therefore it's...
688
00:52:48,083 --> 00:52:49,876
it is her fault.
689
00:52:50,043 --> 00:52:53,046
How can this woman be held
responsible for something that
690
00:52:53,213 --> 00:52:54,631
she in essence did not do
691
00:52:54,798 --> 00:52:57,092
and he had free will
over his actions?
692
00:52:57,259 --> 00:52:59,094
It's mind boggling to me.
693
00:52:59,261 --> 00:53:01,472
If she was telling him to
rob a bank and he robbed a bank,
694
00:53:01,638 --> 00:53:04,975
is she responsible for this
when he went in and...
695
00:53:05,142 --> 00:53:07,936
and did those actions voluntarily?
I don't know.
696
00:53:08,103 --> 00:53:10,814
I just don't see how you can
punish this girl
697
00:53:10,981 --> 00:53:12,650
the rest of her life for this.
698
00:53:13,776 --> 00:53:16,695
My wife and I talk about this
and, you know,
699
00:53:16,862 --> 00:53:19,824
she thinks in one direction
and I think in the other.
700
00:53:19,990 --> 00:53:22,034
That's 'cause we're married,
go figure.
701
00:53:22,201 --> 00:53:25,830
She thinks it's more
the responsibility of the victim
702
00:53:25,997 --> 00:53:29,625
than the responsibility of the...
the young lady, you know?
703
00:53:29,792 --> 00:53:31,918
And I can see her point.
704
00:53:32,085 --> 00:53:39,009
I think it was more immoral
or, uh, unethical, you know,
705
00:53:39,176 --> 00:53:41,470
to not report that to somebody.
706
00:53:41,636 --> 00:53:43,597
I don't know.
I guess it's on the judge,
707
00:53:43,764 --> 00:53:46,475
how he's gonna...
how he's gonna rule it.
708
00:53:46,642 --> 00:53:49,937
Certainly wouldn't want
to date her next.
709
00:53:56,819 --> 00:53:59,530
Breaking news:
The judge has reached a verdict
710
00:53:59,697 --> 00:54:01,740
in the Michelle Carter
manslaughter trial.
711
00:54:01,907 --> 00:54:06,245
This is a highly anticipated decisionof whether Michelle Carter is guilty
712
00:54:06,412 --> 00:54:10,791
of involuntary manslaughterin her boyfriend, Conrad Roy's death.
713
00:54:10,958 --> 00:54:12,668
-Come on, get out of there.
-Come on.
714
00:54:12,835 --> 00:54:14,420
Get out of there.
715
00:54:14,587 --> 00:54:18,215
Judge Lawrence Moniztook just two days to decide this.
716
00:54:18,382 --> 00:54:20,593
He will announce it at 11:00 AM.
717
00:54:25,973 --> 00:54:29,102
Michelle Carter's fatenow in the hands of the judge,
718
00:54:29,268 --> 00:54:31,062
who will render the ultimate verdict.
719
00:54:31,229 --> 00:54:33,523
And at the center of this trial,
720
00:54:33,690 --> 00:54:38,111
whether it's a crimeto tell someone to commit suicide.
721
00:54:38,278 --> 00:54:40,029
Good afternoon, everyone.
722
00:54:40,196 --> 00:54:42,156
Good afternoon, Your Honor.
723
00:54:44,200 --> 00:54:46,286
The law does not require
724
00:54:46,453 --> 00:54:50,498
that any explanation
as to a verdict be given.
725
00:54:50,665 --> 00:54:55,670
Nonetheless, I am of the opinion
726
00:54:55,837 --> 00:55:02,010
that some explanation
of my verdicts is warranted.
727
00:55:02,177 --> 00:55:05,180
I have essentially divided
the evidence in this case
728
00:55:05,347 --> 00:55:08,058
into three components.
729
00:55:08,225 --> 00:55:09,935
The first component
730
00:55:10,102 --> 00:55:16,024
comprises roughly the period
of June 29th, 2014
731
00:55:16,191 --> 00:55:18,485
through the ending of the text messages
732
00:55:18,652 --> 00:55:25,868
between Miss Carter and Mr. Roy
on or about July 12th, 2014.
733
00:55:26,994 --> 00:55:31,248
The second period commences
immediately thereafter,
734
00:55:31,415 --> 00:55:36,086
through July 13th, 2014.
735
00:55:38,047 --> 00:55:40,132
This court first finds
736
00:55:40,299 --> 00:55:42,259
that the Commonwealth has proven
737
00:55:42,426 --> 00:55:45,096
beyond a reasonable doubt
738
00:55:45,262 --> 00:55:47,890
that the actions taken
by Miss Carter
739
00:55:48,057 --> 00:55:53,104
as to the period from June 30th
to July 12th
740
00:55:53,271 --> 00:55:58,067
constituted wanton
and reckless conduct by her,
741
00:55:59,402 --> 00:56:03,573
and serious disregard
of the well-being of Mr. Roy.
742
00:56:05,909 --> 00:56:11,915
The Commonwealth has not proven,
as to that time period,
743
00:56:12,081 --> 00:56:15,543
that said reckless
or wanton behavior
744
00:56:15,710 --> 00:56:18,630
caused the death of Mr. Roy.
745
00:56:21,591 --> 00:56:23,927
Mr. Roy was struggling
with his issues
746
00:56:24,094 --> 00:56:27,305
and took significant actions
of his own.
747
00:56:28,598 --> 00:56:31,643
He secured the generator.
He secured the water pump.
748
00:56:31,810 --> 00:56:35,063
He researched how to fix
the generator.
749
00:56:37,482 --> 00:56:41,278
He located his vehicle
in an unnoticeable area
750
00:56:41,445 --> 00:56:45,199
and commenced his attempt
by starting the pump.
751
00:56:47,618 --> 00:56:53,499
However, he breaks that chain
of self-causation
752
00:56:55,250 --> 00:56:57,086
by exiting the vehicle.
753
00:56:58,545 --> 00:57:01,924
He takes himself out of
the toxic environment
754
00:57:02,091 --> 00:57:03,801
that it has become.
755
00:57:05,344 --> 00:57:10,057
When Miss Carter realizes that
Mr. Roy has exited the truck,
756
00:57:11,225 --> 00:57:14,478
she instructs him to get back
into the truck,
757
00:57:16,314 --> 00:57:20,818
which she has reason to know
is or is becoming
758
00:57:20,985 --> 00:57:25,323
a toxic environment
inconsistent with human life.
759
00:57:27,450 --> 00:57:30,578
This court finds where one's action
760
00:57:30,745 --> 00:57:34,249
create a life-threatening risk
to another,
761
00:57:34,415 --> 00:57:37,502
there is a duty
to take reasonable steps
762
00:57:37,669 --> 00:57:40,630
to alleviate the risk.
763
00:57:41,631 --> 00:57:44,675
The reckless failure
to fulfill this duty
764
00:57:44,842 --> 00:57:47,803
can result in a charge
of manslaughter.
765
00:57:49,680 --> 00:57:52,892
Knowing that Mr. Roy
is in the truck,
766
00:57:53,058 --> 00:57:56,479
knowing the condition of the truck,
767
00:57:56,645 --> 00:57:59,273
Miss Carter takes no action
768
00:58:00,566 --> 00:58:03,903
in the furtherance of the duty
that she has created
769
00:58:04,070 --> 00:58:07,281
by instructing Mr. Roy
to get back into the truck.
770
00:58:08,991 --> 00:58:12,537
Consequently, this court
has found that the Commonwealth
771
00:58:12,703 --> 00:58:14,914
has proven beyond a reasonable doubt
772
00:58:15,081 --> 00:58:20,211
that Miss Carter's actions
and also her failure to act
773
00:58:20,378 --> 00:58:23,756
where she had a self-created
duty to Mr. Roy,
774
00:58:23,923 --> 00:58:28,303
constituted each and all
wanton and reckless conduct.
775
00:58:29,387 --> 00:58:31,514
And this court further finds
that the Commonwealth
776
00:58:31,681 --> 00:58:34,058
has proven beyond a reasonable doubt
777
00:58:34,225 --> 00:58:38,730
that said conduct
caused the death of Mr. Roy.
778
00:58:38,897 --> 00:58:41,191
Miss Carter, please stand.
779
00:58:43,526 --> 00:58:47,531
This court,
having reviewed the evidence
780
00:58:47,697 --> 00:58:50,367
and applied the law thereto,
781
00:58:50,534 --> 00:58:55,580
now finds you guilty
on the indictment charging you
782
00:58:55,747 --> 00:59:01,211
with the involuntary manslaughter
of the person Conrad Roy III.
783
00:59:01,378 --> 00:59:02,796
You may be seated.
784
00:59:02,963 --> 00:59:07,134
That verdict is now recorded
and it is in writing as well.
785
00:59:07,301 --> 00:59:10,721
This matter will stand
continued to August 3rd
786
00:59:10,888 --> 00:59:13,140
for a sentencing hearing.
Thank you very much.
787
00:59:13,307 --> 00:59:14,892
All rise.
788
00:59:22,900 --> 00:59:25,778
Very, very disappointed
with the outcome,
789
00:59:25,945 --> 00:59:28,197
however, because the case
is still pending,
790
00:59:28,364 --> 00:59:30,199
beyond saying I'm disappointed,
791
00:59:30,366 --> 00:59:33,577
I'm not gonna comment any further,
so thank you all.
792
00:59:33,744 --> 00:59:36,581
-Do you have an appeal plan?
-Are you surprised though?
793
00:59:47,675 --> 00:59:49,052
Good afternoon.
794
00:59:49,218 --> 00:59:52,430
Since we still have to return to court
for the sentencing phase of this case,
795
00:59:52,597 --> 00:59:54,599
I will keep my comments brief.
796
00:59:54,766 --> 00:59:56,309
Although we are very pleased
with the verdict,
797
00:59:56,476 --> 00:59:58,645
in reality, there are no winners
here today.
798
00:59:58,812 --> 01:00:01,815
Conrad, an 18-year-old boy, is dead,
and the young woman...
799
01:00:01,981 --> 01:00:04,651
a young woman is now convicted
of causing his death.
800
01:00:04,818 --> 01:00:06,611
Two families have been torn apart
801
01:00:06,778 --> 01:00:09,322
and will be affected by this
for years to come.
802
01:00:09,489 --> 01:00:10,865
This was a unique case
803
01:00:11,032 --> 01:00:13,743
that dealt with a lot of important
issues in our society today.
804
01:00:13,910 --> 01:00:16,329
But in the end,
the case was really about
805
01:00:16,496 --> 01:00:18,790
one young man and one young woman
806
01:00:18,957 --> 01:00:22,002
who were brought together
by tragic circumstances.
807
01:00:30,802 --> 01:00:33,055
What do you want
the sentence to be?
808
01:00:36,058 --> 01:00:37,476
What do you want
the sentence to be?
809
01:00:37,643 --> 01:00:39,353
Are you satisfied
with what happened though?
810
01:00:39,520 --> 01:00:41,146
Do you feel like you get some relief?
811
01:00:41,313 --> 01:00:44,274
Mr. Roy, what kind of relief
are you feeling right now?
812
01:00:48,445 --> 01:00:50,030
- Come on.
- Careful behind you.
813
01:00:53,993 --> 01:00:56,162
Would you like
to say anything to the judge?
814
01:00:56,328 --> 01:00:58,247
Justice for Conrad.
815
01:01:01,917 --> 01:01:04,837
-Hey guys. tell us how you feel?
-No comment.
816
01:01:05,004 --> 01:01:06,797
Come on, get the door unlocked.
817
01:01:06,964 --> 01:01:10,343
Can you tell us what you think
about this verdict?
818
01:01:12,095 --> 01:01:14,931
Can you just tell us what you
think about the verdict?
819
01:01:15,098 --> 01:01:16,724
Do you feel like
justice was served here?
820
01:01:16,891 --> 01:01:19,018
Watch out. Excuse me.
821
01:01:30,321 --> 01:01:34,075
There are many verdicts
that you'll see,
822
01:01:34,242 --> 01:01:36,244
whether I've been involved
in them or, you know,
823
01:01:36,411 --> 01:01:38,663
many cases that I haven't
been involved, you'll say,
824
01:01:38,830 --> 01:01:41,666
"Well, this prosecution really
has the law on their side.
825
01:01:41,833 --> 01:01:43,710
They have the facts on their side.
826
01:01:43,877 --> 01:01:46,296
I don't think that
that was the case here.
827
01:01:46,463 --> 01:01:48,215
I think, you know, people...
828
01:01:48,381 --> 01:01:50,926
There are plenty of people
who are still scratching their head,
829
01:01:51,093 --> 01:01:52,719
thinking, "How is this a crime?"
830
01:01:52,886 --> 01:01:57,181
How could the judge do what he did
and find her guilty on this evidence?
831
01:01:57,348 --> 01:02:01,519
In rendering his verdict,he went so far as to say
832
01:02:01,686 --> 01:02:06,149
up until the point in time
that Conrad was in the truck
833
01:02:06,315 --> 01:02:10,737
with the water pump going,
it was on Conrad Roy;
834
01:02:10,903 --> 01:02:12,530
Michelle would not have
been found guilty.
835
01:02:12,697 --> 01:02:15,617
Then it turned on a dimeand said, however,
836
01:02:15,783 --> 01:02:20,205
when he got out of his truck,
she had a self-created duty,
837
01:02:20,371 --> 01:02:22,749
knowing that he was getting
back into the car,
838
01:02:22,916 --> 01:02:25,502
to prevent it when she
wasn't physically present.
839
01:02:25,668 --> 01:02:29,255
Um, that's when it obviously
went downhill and that was, uh,
840
01:02:29,422 --> 01:02:32,801
was somewhat of a surprise
to hear him saying that.
841
01:02:40,308 --> 01:02:43,020
The huge questionat the heart of this case
842
01:02:43,186 --> 01:02:46,440
is whether Michelle told Conradto get back in the truck.
843
01:02:47,816 --> 01:02:49,484
It's a big question,
because there's...
844
01:02:49,651 --> 01:02:51,486
there's meta-data for the phone calls.
845
01:02:51,653 --> 01:02:53,572
But there's no recordings.
846
01:02:53,739 --> 01:02:56,700
So, there's absolutely no way
to know whether
847
01:02:56,867 --> 01:02:59,328
Michelle telling him
to get back in the truck
848
01:02:59,495 --> 01:03:02,414
was an event that took place,
whether it was something
849
01:03:02,581 --> 01:03:04,708
that she wanted people
to think had happened.
850
01:03:04,875 --> 01:03:07,378
Whether it was like
a manifestation of her guilt.
851
01:03:09,255 --> 01:03:13,175
Why did Michelle wait two monthsto tell Samantha Boardman,
852
01:03:13,342 --> 01:03:15,970
"I told him to get backin the truck"?
853
01:03:27,481 --> 01:03:30,985
I don't think we can know that
Michelle's story is at all true.
854
01:03:31,152 --> 01:03:34,530
It's not... I don't think
it's a true story.
855
01:03:34,697 --> 01:03:36,616
There's no text she said it.
856
01:03:36,783 --> 01:03:40,828
There's no recording of a phone
that she said it.
857
01:03:40,995 --> 01:03:45,959
Michelle frequently madecontradictory statements.
858
01:03:46,125 --> 01:03:50,046
One of the most striking was
that she told her friends
859
01:03:50,213 --> 01:03:52,549
that she had never had sex.
860
01:04:07,355 --> 01:04:11,443
Then she told a friend that
she had had sex with Conrad.
861
01:04:22,162 --> 01:04:25,791
Then she told her friend
that Conrad had raped her.
862
01:04:25,958 --> 01:04:28,293
That he had forced himself on her.
863
01:04:38,596 --> 01:04:42,349
What's scary about Michelle's
description of being assaulted
864
01:04:42,516 --> 01:04:44,977
is that her friends don't believe her.
865
01:04:45,144 --> 01:04:47,229
That there's a sense that, like,
866
01:04:47,396 --> 01:04:49,440
Michelle says some stuff that's true
867
01:04:49,607 --> 01:04:53,069
and some stuff that's not true
and everyone kind of knows it.
868
01:04:53,236 --> 01:04:57,532
I didn't see the DA
bringing that up and saying,
869
01:04:57,698 --> 01:05:00,785
"Well, Michelle was raped by Conrad.
870
01:05:00,952 --> 01:05:03,579
How do we know
she was raped by Conrad?
871
01:05:03,746 --> 01:05:06,290
She actually told somebody
in a text."
872
01:05:06,457 --> 01:05:10,378
The DA said again and again
873
01:05:10,545 --> 01:05:13,548
she was a liarwho couldn't be trusted,
874
01:05:13,715 --> 01:05:17,427
because the DA was obsessedwith not making her sympathetic
875
01:05:17,594 --> 01:05:21,139
without realizing she wasundermining her own case.
876
01:05:21,306 --> 01:05:26,019
But this is the constant twisting
by the DA of data
877
01:05:26,186 --> 01:05:29,231
so that it became impossible
to disentangle.
878
01:05:32,442 --> 01:05:38,699
Most of America believes that shetexted him this in writing.
879
01:05:38,865 --> 01:05:40,325
According to prosecutors,
880
01:05:40,492 --> 01:05:42,577
Carter even texting him to getback in the truck
881
01:05:42,744 --> 01:05:44,454
when he has second thoughts.
882
01:05:44,621 --> 01:05:48,458
And when I meet people in airports
and I'd say to them, uh,
883
01:05:48,625 --> 01:05:50,961
"Hey folks, do you know about this...
884
01:05:51,128 --> 01:05:53,172
this, uh, lady, uh, you know,
885
01:05:53,338 --> 01:05:55,215
who supposedly told
her boyfriend to kill himself?"
886
01:05:55,382 --> 01:05:57,885
"Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
She... She texted her to death."
887
01:05:58,052 --> 01:06:00,554
I said, "Would you believe that there
was never anything written down?
888
01:06:00,721 --> 01:06:02,222
We have no written record."
889
01:06:02,389 --> 01:06:03,849
"No, Doc."
890
01:06:04,016 --> 01:06:05,434
And people get mad.
891
01:06:05,601 --> 01:06:07,812
They say things like
fake news again.
892
01:06:07,978 --> 01:06:10,563
They we're just cherry picking
when to believe Michelle
893
01:06:10,730 --> 01:06:12,482
and when not to believe Michelle.
894
01:06:13,983 --> 01:06:15,694
We are appealing the verdict,
895
01:06:15,860 --> 01:06:18,446
and we'll appeal itfor as long as it takes.
896
01:06:19,573 --> 01:06:23,326
To now treat this juvenile
897
01:06:23,493 --> 01:06:27,289
as, uh, somebody who committed
a homicide,
898
01:06:27,456 --> 01:06:30,917
I think is unfair,
unjust and illegal,
899
01:06:31,084 --> 01:06:34,338
and I think eventually
the court system will see it.
900
01:06:50,980 --> 01:06:52,606
Here's Michelle coming in right now.
901
01:06:55,150 --> 01:06:57,361
Keep your head up.
Love you, Michelle.
902
01:07:35,650 --> 01:07:37,360
Your Honor,
the Commonwealth is asking this court
903
01:07:37,527 --> 01:07:39,863
to impose a sentence
of not less than seven,
904
01:07:40,029 --> 01:07:42,907
no more than 12 years
in state prison.
905
01:07:43,074 --> 01:07:45,201
Your Honor, as the evidence proved,
906
01:07:45,368 --> 01:07:48,538
the facts in this case
are egregious.
907
01:07:48,705 --> 01:07:52,125
There is no earthly reason
why Conrad Henri Roy
908
01:07:52,292 --> 01:07:56,088
should not be here today
with his loving family,
909
01:07:56,254 --> 01:07:58,048
enjoying life,
910
01:07:58,215 --> 01:08:00,967
sharing his many gifts with the world.
911
01:08:01,134 --> 01:08:04,888
But he is not,
and the reason he is not here
912
01:08:05,055 --> 01:08:07,850
is the defendant, Michelle Carter.
913
01:08:08,016 --> 01:08:11,061
Her actions killed Conrad Roy.
914
01:08:11,228 --> 01:08:14,398
She ended his life
to better her own.
915
01:08:14,565 --> 01:08:16,316
For all of these reasons,
Your Honor,
916
01:08:16,483 --> 01:08:18,944
the Commonwealth respectfully
asks this court
917
01:08:19,111 --> 01:08:21,196
to impose our recommendation.
Thank you.
918
01:08:21,363 --> 01:08:23,282
Thank you, Miss Flynn.
919
01:08:23,449 --> 01:08:25,284
Who speaks for the defendant?
920
01:08:26,368 --> 01:08:29,246
Mr. Cataldo, do you have
any evidence to present?
921
01:08:30,664 --> 01:08:35,920
Your Honor, I will summarize by saying,
as this court is well aware,
922
01:08:36,087 --> 01:08:39,674
we're guided with the idea
in the juvenile justice system
923
01:08:39,840 --> 01:08:44,512
that the goal is not punitive,
but yet rehabilitative.
924
01:08:44,679 --> 01:08:47,807
Miss Carter was 17 years old
at the time.
925
01:08:47,974 --> 01:08:51,227
We have a body of law from both
the United States Supreme Court
926
01:08:51,394 --> 01:08:52,770
as well as the SJC
927
01:08:52,937 --> 01:08:55,315
about the adolescent
brain development,
928
01:08:55,481 --> 01:08:58,234
what a court can consider
on sentencing.
929
01:08:58,401 --> 01:09:00,778
And there is a clear body that says
930
01:09:00,945 --> 01:09:04,866
adolescents are not as culpable
as full-grown adults.
931
01:09:05,033 --> 01:09:08,370
Miss Carter will have to live
with the consequences of this
932
01:09:08,536 --> 01:09:09,954
for the rest of her life,
933
01:09:10,121 --> 01:09:12,248
with the publicity
that this case has gained.
934
01:09:12,415 --> 01:09:14,876
Um, that will be substantial.
935
01:09:15,043 --> 01:09:19,840
I think treatment is appropriate
in this particular case for Miss Carter.
936
01:09:20,006 --> 01:09:23,718
Miss Carter does regret
what happened.
937
01:09:23,885 --> 01:09:26,972
She also sent a letter
to the probation department
938
01:09:27,139 --> 01:09:32,352
where she accepts responsibility
for her actions, her words,
939
01:09:32,519 --> 01:09:34,771
her letter.
The court has reviewed all this.
940
01:09:34,938 --> 01:09:39,193
Your Honor, I suggest that she
is not a danger to the public
941
01:09:39,359 --> 01:09:43,822
and in the remedial system,
the juvenile system, uh,
942
01:09:43,989 --> 01:09:47,201
probation is appropriate.
Thank you very much, Your Honor.
943
01:09:47,368 --> 01:09:48,869
Thank you very much.
944
01:09:49,036 --> 01:09:50,537
All rise.
945
01:10:16,147 --> 01:10:18,232
This court is now in session.
Be seated, please.
946
01:10:18,399 --> 01:10:20,818
No talking while court's in session.
947
01:10:20,985 --> 01:10:23,236
You need to understand, all of you,
948
01:10:24,821 --> 01:10:27,282
that this court has not nor should it
949
01:10:27,449 --> 01:10:30,494
allow any emotional response
to this case to enter
950
01:10:30,661 --> 01:10:33,747
into its determinations in any way.
951
01:10:33,914 --> 01:10:39,628
Everyone is entitled
to a decision devoid of any emotion
952
01:10:39,795 --> 01:10:41,839
with respect to this case.
953
01:10:43,883 --> 01:10:48,387
Now I know that there has beensignificant media coverage of this case.
954
01:10:48,554 --> 01:10:52,183
I assure youthat I have steadfastly avoided
955
01:10:52,349 --> 01:10:54,685
any of that.
956
01:10:54,852 --> 01:10:56,979
But by the end of todaypeople will wonder why
957
01:10:57,146 --> 01:10:58,773
what has happened has happened.
958
01:10:58,940 --> 01:11:01,734
People may wonderwhy all of this has happened.
959
01:11:01,901 --> 01:11:04,654
I have not found
960
01:11:04,821 --> 01:11:08,699
that Miss Carter's age
or level of maturity
961
01:11:10,326 --> 01:11:12,453
or even her mental illness
962
01:11:14,664 --> 01:11:17,834
have any significant impact
on her actions.
963
01:11:19,961 --> 01:11:22,755
She was a bright young lady,
did well in school,
964
01:11:22,922 --> 01:11:28,011
and I am satisfied that she
was mindful of the actions
965
01:11:28,178 --> 01:11:30,638
for which she now stands convicted.
966
01:11:32,223 --> 01:11:36,102
On the other hand, even if the age
and the maturity level
967
01:11:36,269 --> 01:11:40,899
of the person at the time that
they have committed the crime
968
01:11:43,485 --> 01:11:46,780
doesn't gre... doesn't garner
a great deal of significance,
969
01:11:46,947 --> 01:11:50,867
the fact that they are still
of that young age
970
01:11:51,034 --> 01:11:54,288
offers a greater promise
of rehabilitation.
971
01:11:55,581 --> 01:11:57,291
Miss Carter, please stand.
972
01:12:03,505 --> 01:12:06,967
Miss Carter, a guilty finding
having entered on the indictment
973
01:12:07,134 --> 01:12:11,013
charging you with
the involuntary manslaughter
974
01:12:11,180 --> 01:12:13,432
of Conrad Roy III
975
01:12:13,599 --> 01:12:16,227
now sentences you to
two and a half years
976
01:12:16,393 --> 01:12:18,854
in the Bristol County
House of Correction.
977
01:12:20,231 --> 01:12:24,819
Fifteen months of said sentence
shall be deemed a committed sentence
978
01:12:24,986 --> 01:12:27,655
and the balance thereof
shall be suspended
979
01:12:27,822 --> 01:12:31,325
until August 1st of 2022.
980
01:12:32,910 --> 01:12:36,122
That is the sentence of the court.
You may be seated.
981
01:12:37,331 --> 01:12:39,000
Mr. Cataldo,
do you wish to be heard?
982
01:12:39,167 --> 01:12:40,835
I do, Your Honor.
983
01:12:41,002 --> 01:12:43,254
- May I approach?
- You may.
984
01:12:52,680 --> 01:12:54,808
Your Honor, what I have just filed
985
01:12:54,974 --> 01:12:57,018
is a motion to stay
the execution of the sentence.
986
01:12:57,185 --> 01:13:00,271
- Let me take a look at it, please.
- Okay, thank you.
987
01:13:11,491 --> 01:13:14,202
I guess we have all come
to know each other a little bit.
988
01:13:14,369 --> 01:13:17,039
I anticipated this motion,
Mr. Cataldo,
989
01:13:17,205 --> 01:13:19,124
and I took some significant time
990
01:13:19,291 --> 01:13:21,627
to review the case
of Commonwealth versus Hodge.
991
01:13:21,793 --> 01:13:24,588
which is found at 380 Mass 851.
992
01:13:24,755 --> 01:13:29,927
The conviction may be reversible,
but the time spent in prison is not.
993
01:13:31,970 --> 01:13:37,142
I am satisfied that there is
an issue worthy of presentation
994
01:13:37,309 --> 01:13:39,103
to the appellate court.
995
01:13:39,270 --> 01:13:40,688
In fact, this court
996
01:13:40,855 --> 01:13:43,858
believes that the wisdom
of the appellate court
997
01:13:44,024 --> 01:13:47,945
will be of instruction now
and going forward.
998
01:13:48,112 --> 01:13:50,823
I don't know what
the appeals court will do.
999
01:13:50,990 --> 01:13:54,994
I don't know if it goes to the SJC,
what the SJC will do.
1000
01:13:55,161 --> 01:13:58,331
But I am satisfied
that a grant of a stay
1001
01:13:58,497 --> 01:14:02,001
through the Massachusetts
court system only
1002
01:14:03,336 --> 01:14:04,712
is warranted.
1003
01:14:04,879 --> 01:14:08,716
This order will not encompass
anything with respect
1004
01:14:08,883 --> 01:14:11,594
to the federal system.
1005
01:14:11,761 --> 01:14:14,347
Is there anything further,
Mr. Cataldo or Mr. Madeira?
1006
01:14:14,514 --> 01:14:16,224
One minute please.
1007
01:14:23,732 --> 01:14:25,191
We're all set. Thank you.
1008
01:14:25,358 --> 01:14:28,445
And we are adjourned.
Thank you very much.
1009
01:14:28,612 --> 01:14:30,238
All rise.
1010
01:14:47,129 --> 01:14:48,756
I don't understand how a month ago
1011
01:14:48,923 --> 01:14:50,716
it's a guilty verdict
giving the family hope
1012
01:14:50,883 --> 01:14:52,468
that there might be some type
of justice,
1013
01:14:52,635 --> 01:14:55,596
to just have her go home tonight
and have a nice meal.
1014
01:14:55,763 --> 01:14:58,015
I just don't get it. Like I said,
it's saying to me...
1015
01:14:58,182 --> 01:15:00,184
I don't have a law degree,
I don't have...
1016
01:15:00,351 --> 01:15:01,853
But it saying
as long I'm under 18,
1017
01:15:02,020 --> 01:15:03,730
I can bully anyone.
1018
01:15:04,856 --> 01:15:06,441
Are you pleased with the stay?
1019
01:15:06,608 --> 01:15:09,360
Very much so, yes. Yes.
1020
01:15:09,527 --> 01:15:12,697
You have to remember, people weretotally split about this case.
1021
01:15:12,864 --> 01:15:15,575
So, the reason that it's
so interesting to me,
1022
01:15:15,742 --> 01:15:18,411
like, the difference between
the conviction and the sentencing,
1023
01:15:18,578 --> 01:15:21,957
is that it expresses
the complete kind of craziness
1024
01:15:22,123 --> 01:15:24,709
that this case drives people to
in terms of trying to come up
1025
01:15:24,876 --> 01:15:28,171
with one objective conclusion of
what should happen to Michelle Carter.
1026
01:15:28,338 --> 01:15:30,423
If this appeal lingers to 2022,
1027
01:15:30,590 --> 01:15:32,259
conceivably she will never
serve time in jail?
1028
01:15:32,426 --> 01:15:34,302
Conceivably, yes.
1029
01:15:35,595 --> 01:15:38,807
It's like you were responsible,it was involuntary manslaughter.
1030
01:15:38,974 --> 01:15:41,393
But you can basically never go to jail?
1031
01:15:57,242 --> 01:15:59,703
I would be surprised
if she serves time.
1032
01:16:29,776 --> 01:16:33,529
I have reviewed
the Commonwealth's motion
1033
01:16:33,696 --> 01:16:36,574
and have considered the arguments
just presented to the court.
1034
01:16:36,741 --> 01:16:39,619
The court now allows
the Commonwealth's motion
1035
01:16:39,786 --> 01:16:42,080
to revoke the stay of sentence.
1036
01:16:42,247 --> 01:16:45,375
Miss Carter will now be taken
into custody.
1037
01:16:51,881 --> 01:16:54,426
This matter is adjourned.
Thank you very much.
1038
01:16:54,593 --> 01:16:55,969
All rise.
87855
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