1 00:00:48,124 --> 00:00:51,377 Did you have some interaction with a Conrad Roy Junior? 2 00:00:51,544 --> 00:00:53,838 -Yes, I did. -And could you please describe that? 3 00:00:54,005 --> 00:00:55,381 Objection. 4 00:00:56,800 --> 00:00:58,593 Overruled. 5 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:01,888 I was... I was... I responded to an assault call, sir. 6 00:01:02,055 --> 00:01:03,765 Okay. And what did you do when you arrived? 7 00:01:03,932 --> 00:01:06,184 We attempted to find the person that had been assaulted. 8 00:01:06,351 --> 00:01:09,938 Okay. And at some point in time, did you come into, um, 9 00:01:10,105 --> 00:01:13,275 the physical presence of Conrad Roy III? 10 00:01:13,441 --> 00:01:14,985 - I did. - Okay. And uh, 11 00:01:15,152 --> 00:01:16,862 did you make any observations of him? 12 00:01:17,028 --> 00:01:19,489 Yes, his face was swollen red 13 00:01:19,656 --> 00:01:22,242 and he had some uh, lacerations to his face. 14 00:01:24,036 --> 00:01:27,039 Did you obtain a written statement from him? 15 00:01:27,205 --> 00:01:28,582 I did, yes. 16 00:01:48,394 --> 00:01:52,857 I found myself at a home located on Perkins Lane. 17 00:01:53,023 --> 00:01:55,568 And what did you do when you arrived at that location? 18 00:01:55,735 --> 00:01:58,070 I interviewed an older male and a female. 19 00:01:58,237 --> 00:02:00,031 Okay. And do you remember the older male's name? 20 00:02:00,197 --> 00:02:01,574 Conrad Roy. 21 00:02:01,741 --> 00:02:03,910 And did you ask him specifically what happened? 22 00:02:04,076 --> 00:02:05,453 Yes, I did. 23 00:02:12,377 --> 00:02:14,545 Before concluding my investigation, 24 00:02:14,712 --> 00:02:16,589 a male party was subsequently placed under arrest. 25 00:02:16,756 --> 00:02:19,133 -And who was that male party that was... -The father. 26 00:02:19,300 --> 00:02:20,677 -The one you were speaking to? -Correct. 27 00:02:20,843 --> 00:02:23,721 -And what was he arrested for? -Assault and battery domestic. 28 00:02:27,767 --> 00:02:30,061 Yeah. You know, you think at first it's kind of embarrassing. 29 00:02:30,228 --> 00:02:31,896 But you know what? It doesn't really matter. 30 00:02:32,063 --> 00:02:34,357 I know what happened that night with my son. 31 00:02:34,524 --> 00:02:37,110 And I know, like, I was being a parent. 32 00:02:37,277 --> 00:02:40,947 And I know things got out of control and we both fought each other. 33 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:43,992 And, um... 34 00:02:44,159 --> 00:02:46,620 and I'd do it again just... just like that. 35 00:02:48,538 --> 00:02:51,458 You know, sometimes, like, you say it, you know, like... 36 00:02:51,625 --> 00:02:54,544 My father always said, "If you ever take a swing at me, 37 00:02:54,710 --> 00:02:56,712 you're gonna, um, 38 00:02:56,879 --> 00:02:58,631 you're gonna get it." You know? It's like, 39 00:02:58,798 --> 00:03:00,716 "You're gonna make sure you don't do that ever again." 40 00:03:00,883 --> 00:03:04,262 And I just felt like I had to do the same thing. 41 00:04:16,502 --> 00:04:18,921 Hard to describe the feeling in the courtroom today. 42 00:04:19,088 --> 00:04:20,798 Pretty much everyone on edge. 43 00:04:20,965 --> 00:04:22,884 Now, the defense will present their case. 44 00:04:23,050 --> 00:04:25,386 They've already called several witnesses this morning 45 00:04:25,553 --> 00:04:29,015 and things will move forward in this landmark trial. 46 00:04:31,434 --> 00:04:34,645 You have to remember that this case has two families 47 00:04:34,812 --> 00:04:36,814 who were basically trying to do the same thing. 48 00:04:36,981 --> 00:04:40,360 They both want a version of the story in which it is not their fault. 49 00:04:40,526 --> 00:04:42,570 The Roys are hoping for a version of the story 50 00:04:42,737 --> 00:04:46,157 where the suicide of their son is Michelle's fault, 51 00:04:46,324 --> 00:04:49,369 and that she was waiting for the moment when she could pounce on this kid 52 00:04:49,536 --> 00:04:52,080 and make him kill himself and get a bunch of sympathy. 53 00:04:52,247 --> 00:04:54,124 And the Carters are hoping for a version of the story 54 00:04:54,291 --> 00:04:57,502 where Michelle's actions are not her fault. 55 00:04:57,669 --> 00:05:00,380 And that's what Peter Breggin was arguing. 56 00:05:00,547 --> 00:05:03,842 - Morning, Doctor. - Good morning, Your Honor. 57 00:05:05,051 --> 00:05:07,345 Please raise your right hand. In this matter before the court, 58 00:05:07,512 --> 00:05:09,348 you swear the testimony you're about to give to be the truth, the whole truth 59 00:05:09,514 --> 00:05:10,891 and nothing but the truth, so help you God? 60 00:05:11,058 --> 00:05:12,476 -I do. -Thank you. 61 00:05:12,643 --> 00:05:16,146 All right. Please take a seat, sir. Make yourself nice and comfortable. 62 00:05:18,273 --> 00:05:22,152 I got a call out of the blue from the attorney, Mr. Cataldo. 63 00:05:22,319 --> 00:05:26,031 What he said is, "Doc, we got this case 64 00:05:26,198 --> 00:05:29,702 that we don't know what's going on and we can't figure out... 65 00:05:31,287 --> 00:05:35,249 Um... Give us a hand." 66 00:05:37,668 --> 00:05:39,420 I was originally called in 67 00:05:39,587 --> 00:05:43,257 to see whether Conrad Roy's medication had made him suicidal. 68 00:05:46,886 --> 00:05:51,891 He was on psychiatric drugs, antidepressants, 69 00:05:52,058 --> 00:05:56,687 and if you look at the research on what the psych drugs do... 70 00:05:56,854 --> 00:05:58,439 they can cause suicide. 71 00:05:59,899 --> 00:06:03,361 I concluded it was a contributing factor, 72 00:06:03,528 --> 00:06:05,697 but not an overwhelming factor, 73 00:06:05,863 --> 00:06:09,075 because there were many other things impinging on Conrad. 74 00:06:23,673 --> 00:06:27,469 Conrad was reacting to a very unhappy, 75 00:06:27,636 --> 00:06:32,140 angry, and at times, violent divorce. We know that. 76 00:06:32,307 --> 00:06:34,518 The father charged the mother with assault. 77 00:06:37,354 --> 00:06:42,192 There're all these things coming to bear on him. 78 00:06:42,359 --> 00:06:48,198 Then I found out that Michelle was... on psychiatric drugs too. 79 00:06:49,867 --> 00:06:51,577 And so, we have these two kids; 80 00:06:51,744 --> 00:06:54,538 they're not star crossed, they're drug crossed. 81 00:06:55,581 --> 00:07:00,628 When did Michelle Carter start, uh, consuming SSRIs? 82 00:07:00,794 --> 00:07:03,005 She started Prozac 83 00:07:03,172 --> 00:07:09,219 on February 17, 2011, uh, ten milligrams. 84 00:07:10,470 --> 00:07:13,473 And, uh, she was just a young girl then, 85 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:15,475 fourteen going on 15. 86 00:07:15,642 --> 00:07:17,102 Okay, thank you. 87 00:07:20,230 --> 00:07:25,360 Prozac greatly increase the risk of suicide in young people her age. 88 00:07:27,070 --> 00:07:30,073 And she never should've been given Prozac 89 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:32,075 because she was bulimic, 90 00:07:32,242 --> 00:07:35,871 and that would increase the power of Prozac over her. 91 00:07:36,038 --> 00:07:39,374 And not long after her first exposure to Prozac, 92 00:07:39,541 --> 00:07:41,668 she climbed up on a stool 93 00:07:41,835 --> 00:07:44,338 and put a noose around her neck in her closet. 94 00:08:04,233 --> 00:08:07,486 Now at the same moment, Conrad Roy, 95 00:08:07,653 --> 00:08:10,239 whom at that point she thought was a sweet boyfriend 96 00:08:10,406 --> 00:08:12,200 without any serious problems, 97 00:08:12,366 --> 00:08:17,872 was admitted to a psychiatric hospital for a serious suicide attempt. 98 00:09:04,127 --> 00:09:07,673 So now Michelle, who's a youngster, 99 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:10,843 who's on Prozac at the time, 100 00:09:11,009 --> 00:09:14,722 is dealing with this huge disclosure. 101 00:09:14,888 --> 00:09:18,142 It's... And he is saying "I'm not who you thought I was." 102 00:09:21,145 --> 00:09:23,731 And furthermore, as announced to her 103 00:09:23,898 --> 00:09:27,359 that voices are telling himself to kill himself tonight. 104 00:09:36,202 --> 00:09:38,579 Michelle becomes desperate. 105 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:42,834 Conrad won't answer her. 106 00:09:45,294 --> 00:09:47,505 And she thinks he's killed himself. 107 00:09:58,266 --> 00:10:02,979 Conrad, at least four times, attempted suicide, 108 00:10:03,146 --> 00:10:05,231 once nearly killing himself. 109 00:10:07,275 --> 00:10:09,653 He overdosed on acetaminophen. 110 00:10:11,154 --> 00:10:12,822 And the EMTs call me. 111 00:10:14,407 --> 00:10:16,243 And, um, they ask, they're like, 112 00:10:16,409 --> 00:10:20,330 "Well, he threw... You know, threw up a lot. 113 00:10:20,497 --> 00:10:23,542 Do you want him to be seen?" 114 00:10:23,709 --> 00:10:26,503 I said "Absolutely." 115 00:10:40,142 --> 00:10:43,103 He almost needed a liver transplant at that time. 116 00:10:44,396 --> 00:10:46,357 He said he would never do that again. 117 00:10:46,523 --> 00:10:48,484 He said, "I promise you 118 00:10:48,651 --> 00:10:51,028 I will nev... never do that again." 119 00:10:53,697 --> 00:10:55,950 I said, "You know that if you died, 120 00:10:57,034 --> 00:11:02,123 mom would want to die too. You know that, right?" 121 00:11:21,642 --> 00:11:25,395 And how is this relevant to your clinical analysis of this case? 122 00:11:25,562 --> 00:11:27,981 Well, it has to do with the... 123 00:11:29,274 --> 00:11:31,443 effects of Conrad... 124 00:11:33,112 --> 00:11:36,031 on what will eventually become 125 00:11:37,408 --> 00:11:41,328 her idea taken from him 126 00:11:42,329 --> 00:11:44,665 that he's going to kill himself, 127 00:11:45,749 --> 00:11:51,005 and that all he cares about is doing it swiftly and quickly 128 00:11:51,172 --> 00:11:53,591 and not botching it. 129 00:11:53,758 --> 00:11:58,346 She's following his lead into a very dark place. 130 00:13:06,999 --> 00:13:09,001 Probably the most common 131 00:13:09,168 --> 00:13:11,837 adverse effect of antidepressants is nightmares. 132 00:13:12,004 --> 00:13:13,964 So, this is just spot on. 133 00:13:14,131 --> 00:13:18,594 She's clearly out of her mind, and so is he. 134 00:14:01,221 --> 00:14:03,932 You can't look at one text message. 135 00:14:04,099 --> 00:14:09,020 You have to look at the totality of their relationship. 136 00:14:09,187 --> 00:14:10,605 You have somebody, Conrad Roy, 137 00:14:10,772 --> 00:14:14,026 who has been suicidal for a very long time, 138 00:14:14,192 --> 00:14:17,946 really, at this point in time, intent on killing himself. 139 00:14:19,740 --> 00:14:22,451 She, if you look at her for a year and a half, 140 00:14:22,618 --> 00:14:26,371 never wanted him to die. Didn't want him to kill himself. 141 00:14:29,375 --> 00:14:31,460 What caused her to switch? 142 00:14:33,379 --> 00:14:34,838 It struck me 143 00:14:35,005 --> 00:14:38,217 that she was in an extremely abusive relationship. 144 00:14:38,384 --> 00:14:42,221 There's this constant harassing of her 145 00:14:42,388 --> 00:14:45,307 while he's not telling family. 146 00:14:45,474 --> 00:14:47,435 And at one point toward the end, 147 00:14:47,601 --> 00:14:49,186 Conrad tells her... 148 00:14:49,353 --> 00:14:52,690 "The one thing that will make me hate you 149 00:14:52,857 --> 00:14:56,360 is if you tell anyone that I'm suicidal." 150 00:14:56,527 --> 00:14:59,030 And she listens. 151 00:15:00,615 --> 00:15:02,116 Michelle got it all. 152 00:15:02,283 --> 00:15:04,160 There's this huge pyramid of his misery 153 00:15:04,327 --> 00:15:06,579 and at the bottom of it is sitting Michelle Carter 154 00:15:06,746 --> 00:15:08,289 and nobody else. 155 00:15:08,456 --> 00:15:13,211 Conrad told Michelle that his mother knew 156 00:15:13,378 --> 00:15:14,921 that he was suicidal. 157 00:15:23,179 --> 00:15:26,099 He actually screenshotted her, Michelle, 158 00:15:26,266 --> 00:15:29,561 his laptop, of methods how to kill yourself. 159 00:15:33,981 --> 00:15:36,192 Michelle says, "Well, didn't she say anything to you?" 160 00:15:36,358 --> 00:15:38,069 And Conrad responded, 161 00:15:38,235 --> 00:15:40,946 "No, she just looked at it and walked away." 162 00:15:47,453 --> 00:15:50,081 What Conrad is doing is manipulating 163 00:15:50,248 --> 00:15:54,168 and lying to Michelle, saying, "My mom even knows." 164 00:15:58,965 --> 00:16:02,176 The whole story became deeper, 165 00:16:03,303 --> 00:16:08,266 and the theme was running the exact opposite 166 00:16:08,433 --> 00:16:12,353 of the DA's witch hunt. 167 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:16,483 In fact, both were victims of the psychiatric drugs. 168 00:16:17,776 --> 00:16:20,987 What is a involuntary intoxication? 169 00:16:21,154 --> 00:16:25,742 Well, by definition, it's an intoxication, 170 00:16:25,909 --> 00:16:27,911 which means that 171 00:16:28,078 --> 00:16:32,249 the neurochemistry of the brain has been disrupted. 172 00:16:32,416 --> 00:16:36,211 And that this intoxication is observable 173 00:16:36,378 --> 00:16:40,465 through thoughts, behaviors, activities. 174 00:16:42,259 --> 00:16:47,389 They involve, in general, things like impulsivity, 175 00:16:47,556 --> 00:16:49,433 impaired judgment... 176 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:51,810 And specifically, Dr. Breggin, 177 00:16:51,977 --> 00:16:54,355 as to Michelle Carter, did you have an opinion 178 00:16:54,521 --> 00:16:57,608 of whether or not she was involuntarily intoxicated? 179 00:16:58,734 --> 00:17:01,111 -Yes. -And what is that opinion? 180 00:17:01,278 --> 00:17:04,281 She was involuntarily intoxicated. 181 00:17:04,448 --> 00:17:11,414 She was taking Prozac and she then switched to Celexa. 182 00:17:11,580 --> 00:17:14,625 And are you able to pinpoint 183 00:17:14,792 --> 00:17:17,670 about when she became involuntarily intoxicated? 184 00:17:17,837 --> 00:17:20,673 Yes, on July 2nd, 185 00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:25,762 she begins to help him go to heaven. 186 00:17:35,355 --> 00:17:39,150 At this point, she has an involuntary intoxication 187 00:17:39,317 --> 00:17:43,405 where she's not forming a criminal intent, 188 00:17:43,571 --> 00:17:46,032 "I'm gonna harm him." 189 00:17:46,199 --> 00:17:49,077 She's not doing something she thinks is criminal, 190 00:17:49,244 --> 00:17:50,954 "This is bad." 191 00:17:52,205 --> 00:17:53,790 She's thinking 192 00:17:53,957 --> 00:17:57,294 that it's a good thing to help him die. 193 00:17:59,046 --> 00:18:01,840 That she can mitigate the circumstances. 194 00:18:06,553 --> 00:18:09,556 That she can then go and help his family. 195 00:18:14,686 --> 00:18:18,482 And like anybody who's in a hypomanic state, 196 00:18:18,649 --> 00:18:21,068 she gets very angry when she's disrupted. 197 00:18:30,661 --> 00:18:32,621 This is now the way. 198 00:18:32,788 --> 00:18:35,666 She's found the way to finally help. 199 00:22:09,258 --> 00:22:13,012 Involuntary intoxication is a diagnosis that I never use, 200 00:22:13,178 --> 00:22:17,057 and that most of the colleagues that I know don't use. 201 00:22:17,224 --> 00:22:19,477 But that is using forensic psychiatry. 202 00:22:19,643 --> 00:22:23,022 So, without, you know, without any consensus 203 00:22:23,189 --> 00:22:25,941 by our profession that it's even real. 204 00:22:26,108 --> 00:22:29,737 In some children and adolescents taking antidepressants, 205 00:22:29,904 --> 00:22:31,781 it can be disinhibiting. 206 00:22:31,948 --> 00:22:34,075 I wouldn't call it drastic, you know? 207 00:22:34,242 --> 00:22:38,579 But, uh, if you become manic when you're on antidepressant, 208 00:22:38,746 --> 00:22:40,790 that's pretty drastic, you know, 209 00:22:40,957 --> 00:22:44,294 and that happens in a very small proportion of cases. 210 00:22:48,673 --> 00:22:50,425 You may resume when you are ready, Miss Rayburn. 211 00:22:50,592 --> 00:22:51,968 Thank you very much, Your Honor. 212 00:22:52,135 --> 00:22:53,845 -Uh, good morning, sir. -Morning. 213 00:22:54,012 --> 00:22:56,097 You would agree with me at the time 214 00:22:56,264 --> 00:22:59,184 between July 2nd and July 12th, 2014, 215 00:22:59,351 --> 00:23:01,645 the defendant was going to camp, correct? 216 00:23:01,811 --> 00:23:03,313 - Yes. - Okay. 217 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:06,358 She was interacting with friends at times, correct? 218 00:23:06,525 --> 00:23:08,485 - Yes. - She's seeking therapy 219 00:23:08,652 --> 00:23:11,822 -and talking to her therapist, correct? -Yes. 220 00:23:11,988 --> 00:23:14,449 And you would agree with me that the therapist describes her appearance 221 00:23:14,616 --> 00:23:17,077 as good eye contact, well groomed, correct? Okay? 222 00:23:17,244 --> 00:23:18,662 - Yeah. - All right. 223 00:23:18,829 --> 00:23:22,583 Short-term memory intact. Judgment good. Correct? 224 00:23:22,749 --> 00:23:25,586 -Behavior, no abnormalities, correct? -Yeah. 225 00:23:25,752 --> 00:23:27,212 Her affect is appropriate. 226 00:23:27,379 --> 00:23:30,048 Her short, uh, long-term memory's intact, correct? 227 00:23:30,215 --> 00:23:31,633 -Yeah. -Her insight is good. 228 00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:33,177 -Correct? -Yeah. 229 00:23:33,344 --> 00:23:36,388 And you're now telling us that she didn't know right from wrong 230 00:23:36,555 --> 00:23:37,932 at that same time? 231 00:23:38,098 --> 00:23:40,434 Well, actually, she thought she was doing 232 00:23:40,601 --> 00:23:42,561 absolutely the right thing. 233 00:23:42,728 --> 00:23:44,271 You would agree with me, though, 234 00:23:44,438 --> 00:23:48,901 that on July 10th into July 11th 2014, 235 00:23:49,068 --> 00:23:50,986 the defendant is telling friends, 236 00:23:51,153 --> 00:23:54,782 specifically Sam Boardman, that Conrad is missing. 237 00:23:54,949 --> 00:23:56,325 - Correct? - Yes. 238 00:23:56,492 --> 00:23:58,119 But at the same time, you would agree with me 239 00:23:58,286 --> 00:24:00,537 -she's communicating with Conrad? -Yes. 240 00:24:00,704 --> 00:24:03,415 She's telling people he's missing, she doesn't know where he is. 241 00:24:03,582 --> 00:24:04,958 She's getting updates from the family. 242 00:24:05,125 --> 00:24:06,835 All while speaking to him, correct? 243 00:24:07,002 --> 00:24:11,632 Yes. It's very strange. I can't find a rational reason 244 00:24:11,798 --> 00:24:13,550 why she would ever have been doing this. 245 00:24:13,717 --> 00:24:16,720 I think it's part of a very confused, delusional state 246 00:24:16,887 --> 00:24:18,972 that... Where she's coming in and out of, uh, 247 00:24:19,139 --> 00:24:20,516 "What's happening? What am I doing?" 248 00:24:20,682 --> 00:24:22,101 How about the rational reason 249 00:24:22,267 --> 00:24:24,561 that she wanted to know how her friends would react 250 00:24:24,728 --> 00:24:26,480 when he killed himself? 251 00:24:26,647 --> 00:24:29,775 No. I can't imagine that would be motivating her 252 00:24:29,942 --> 00:24:34,405 to be opening up this horrible, bizarre activity 253 00:24:34,572 --> 00:24:36,615 she's involved in. I... 254 00:24:36,782 --> 00:24:40,578 I mean, you would expect her not to do anything like that. 255 00:24:40,745 --> 00:24:43,330 But she's saying she's concerned for him, 256 00:24:43,497 --> 00:24:47,668 while at the same time talking to him. 257 00:24:47,835 --> 00:24:49,378 Yeah. I think it's really crazy. 258 00:24:49,545 --> 00:24:53,549 And in fact, Sam does, I would suggest to you, 259 00:24:53,716 --> 00:24:56,093 she then shows concern. Correct? 260 00:24:56,260 --> 00:24:59,055 - Well, of course, yeah. - Okay. 261 00:24:59,222 --> 00:25:04,352 Focusing now on July 12th into the 13th. 9:48 PM. 262 00:25:04,519 --> 00:25:07,105 To Sam: "I'm so fucking stupid. 263 00:25:07,272 --> 00:25:08,856 The generator he got the other day... 264 00:25:09,023 --> 00:25:10,859 I think that he... the noise I heard... 265 00:25:11,025 --> 00:25:13,445 I just looked it up; they emit carbon monoxide. 266 00:25:13,611 --> 00:25:15,196 I think he poisoned himself with it." 267 00:25:15,363 --> 00:25:17,532 And so it goes, correct? 268 00:25:18,700 --> 00:25:20,618 - That's actually a question. - Yeah. Yeah. 269 00:25:20,785 --> 00:25:22,287 Okay. Now, you would agree with me, sir, 270 00:25:22,454 --> 00:25:25,040 that there were text messages between the defendant 271 00:25:25,206 --> 00:25:28,418 and Conrad Roy about exactly how he was gonna kill himself. 272 00:25:28,585 --> 00:25:30,003 -Weren't there? -Yeah. Absolutely. 273 00:25:30,170 --> 00:25:32,422 Okay. So, her telling Sam, 274 00:25:32,589 --> 00:25:36,927 "I think the noise that I heard, uh, I looked... 275 00:25:37,094 --> 00:25:39,262 I think the generator he got today, 276 00:25:39,429 --> 00:25:41,515 I think that was the noise I heard. I looked it up. 277 00:25:41,682 --> 00:25:43,892 They can emit carbon monoxide." 278 00:25:44,059 --> 00:25:45,853 She already knew that, didn't she? 279 00:25:46,019 --> 00:25:47,437 - Yes. - Okay. 280 00:25:49,189 --> 00:25:54,403 And now talking to Ally, she says, "Ha, ha, yeah. 281 00:25:54,570 --> 00:25:56,947 But I don't know; he's in a bad place right now," 282 00:25:57,114 --> 00:25:58,824 talking to Con... about Conrad, correct? 283 00:25:58,991 --> 00:26:00,367 Yes. 284 00:26:00,534 --> 00:26:01,911 She's telling Ally he's in a bad place. 285 00:26:02,077 --> 00:26:04,663 He's dead, sir, at that point. 286 00:26:04,830 --> 00:26:06,791 Did you factor that in your opinion then? 287 00:26:06,957 --> 00:26:11,379 The fact that she knows he's dead, and in saying, "Ha, ha, yeah. 288 00:26:11,545 --> 00:26:14,382 But I don't know; he's in a bad place right now." 289 00:26:14,548 --> 00:26:16,676 Did you factor that into your opinion? 290 00:26:17,802 --> 00:26:19,303 Yes, I factored every... 291 00:26:19,470 --> 00:26:21,556 every bit of this into my opinion, yes. 292 00:26:21,722 --> 00:26:24,308 So, she's telling one person one thing 293 00:26:24,475 --> 00:26:26,519 and other people other things, correct? 294 00:26:26,686 --> 00:26:28,354 Yes, she is. 295 00:26:28,521 --> 00:26:30,023 So now, the next morning, 296 00:26:30,189 --> 00:26:34,611 July 13th, 2014 at 9:02, her mother texts her, correct? 297 00:26:34,777 --> 00:26:36,195 Yes. 298 00:26:36,362 --> 00:26:39,157 "Hi, Michelle. What are you doing?" Right? 299 00:26:39,324 --> 00:26:41,326 Michelle responds, "I'm at home." 300 00:26:41,493 --> 00:26:44,079 Mom says, "Doing what?" 301 00:26:44,245 --> 00:26:47,207 Michelle responds, "Nothing, ha, ha." 302 00:26:47,374 --> 00:26:49,542 Doesn't tell her mother anything about what's going on, 303 00:26:49,709 --> 00:26:51,336 - does she? - No. 304 00:26:51,503 --> 00:26:54,339 -She only tells her friends, correct? -Yes. 305 00:26:54,506 --> 00:26:57,175 These same friends that she has been asking 306 00:26:57,342 --> 00:27:00,679 to hang out with her for the past year 307 00:27:00,846 --> 00:27:03,140 and who routinely don't hang out with her. 308 00:27:03,306 --> 00:27:06,435 -Isn't that true? -Oh, I don't know that. 309 00:27:06,601 --> 00:27:08,395 Would you factor it into your opinion, 310 00:27:08,562 --> 00:27:11,273 the fact that these... the defendant wanted to hang out 311 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:14,193 with her friends and her friends didn't have time with her that summer? 312 00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:17,863 Could that impact your opinion? 313 00:27:18,030 --> 00:27:20,908 That it turned her into a crazy person 314 00:27:21,075 --> 00:27:22,701 who transformed her character, 315 00:27:22,868 --> 00:27:24,411 -became grandiose... -No. 316 00:27:24,578 --> 00:27:26,830 ...and encouraged a young man whom she loved 317 00:27:26,997 --> 00:27:30,292 and had been working with a... again and again to... 318 00:27:30,459 --> 00:27:32,545 to get better, that she turned on him 319 00:27:32,711 --> 00:27:35,047 and started to encourage him to die? 320 00:27:35,214 --> 00:27:36,799 No, I don't think so. 321 00:27:36,966 --> 00:27:40,052 She's psychotic, deluded. She's disturbed. 322 00:27:40,219 --> 00:27:44,307 Everything you're describing is why I concluded 323 00:27:44,473 --> 00:27:47,310 she's got an involuntary intoxication. 324 00:27:49,395 --> 00:27:52,064 -All right, just coming in. You ready? -Yep. 325 00:27:52,231 --> 00:27:53,608 So far this morning we've been hearing from 326 00:27:53,775 --> 00:27:56,069 Dr. Peter Breggin, that paints a very different picture 327 00:27:56,235 --> 00:27:58,655 than what we saw last week in those messages. 328 00:27:58,821 --> 00:28:02,784 And the biggest question here now is will Michelle Carter testify? 329 00:28:02,951 --> 00:28:04,452 Are you gonna call Michelle to the stand tomorrow? 330 00:28:04,619 --> 00:28:06,496 Uh. I have no comment. We're going to proceed tomorrow 331 00:28:06,663 --> 00:28:08,540 with the continuation of the trial. 332 00:28:08,706 --> 00:28:11,084 Part of the drama of this case 333 00:28:11,251 --> 00:28:14,211 was the adult world confronting what teenagers are like. 334 00:28:14,378 --> 00:28:17,006 All right, guys. Can you stop? You've already got her picture. 335 00:28:18,215 --> 00:28:21,093 And I think for the parents it must be sort of impossible 336 00:28:21,260 --> 00:28:22,636 to understand what happened, 337 00:28:22,803 --> 00:28:26,223 'cause it's so far from what is, you know, 338 00:28:26,390 --> 00:28:30,269 acceptable human behavior, what she did in the last few weeks. 339 00:28:31,604 --> 00:28:35,566 And I think the biggest mystery of the story is not... 340 00:28:35,733 --> 00:28:37,276 why Michelle Carter did what she did, 341 00:28:37,443 --> 00:28:39,820 but what Michelle Carter thought she was doing. 342 00:28:42,073 --> 00:28:44,075 What's really interesting about this case 343 00:28:44,242 --> 00:28:46,035 is that we have this very detailed record 344 00:28:46,202 --> 00:28:48,329 of what was said between them. 345 00:28:48,496 --> 00:28:51,290 This detailed record of their minds coming together 346 00:28:51,457 --> 00:28:53,543 and interacting with each other. 347 00:28:53,710 --> 00:28:55,378 In the past we wouldn't have had that record. 348 00:28:55,545 --> 00:28:58,631 All we would've had was a person commits suicide 349 00:28:58,798 --> 00:29:01,259 and we're all left wondering what happened. 350 00:29:02,343 --> 00:29:04,220 Are we talking about young psychopaths? 351 00:29:04,387 --> 00:29:07,599 Are we talking about narcissistic personality disorders, 352 00:29:07,766 --> 00:29:09,142 borderline disorders? 353 00:29:09,309 --> 00:29:12,270 Are we just talking about young, troubled kids 354 00:29:12,437 --> 00:29:15,732 who don't have a well-developed frontal cortex 355 00:29:15,899 --> 00:29:17,692 and just don't have the self-awareness 356 00:29:17,859 --> 00:29:20,529 and the ability to see what they're doing? 357 00:29:20,695 --> 00:29:23,073 But now because we have this record of this dialogue 358 00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:25,742 between them, we have this opportunity to see 359 00:29:25,909 --> 00:29:28,161 what was going on inside their minds, 360 00:29:28,328 --> 00:29:32,040 inside that thought process between the two of them. 361 00:30:02,279 --> 00:30:05,533 The idea that this was a case where a girlfriend killed a boyfriend 362 00:30:05,700 --> 00:30:07,243 is really weird. 363 00:30:07,410 --> 00:30:09,120 The way that I read it is... 364 00:30:09,287 --> 00:30:11,956 the relationship was much more Michelle's fantasy 365 00:30:12,123 --> 00:30:15,543 and Michelle's idea than it was Conrad's. 366 00:30:16,627 --> 00:30:20,923 Conrad was alternately kind of mean to her, 367 00:30:21,090 --> 00:30:23,009 kind of sweet to her... 368 00:30:23,176 --> 00:30:26,804 kind of negging her for most of the relationship. 369 00:30:28,932 --> 00:30:32,644 They really weirdly connected on this slightly mean, 370 00:30:32,811 --> 00:30:35,230 slightly competitive level that they both had. 371 00:30:39,192 --> 00:30:43,488 They had this kind of game that they would play together. 372 00:30:46,450 --> 00:30:47,868 They would finish each other's sentences, 373 00:30:48,034 --> 00:30:51,163 they would play weird word games and free associations. 374 00:31:02,758 --> 00:31:05,177 And it's, like, kind of sexy, kind of weird, 375 00:31:05,344 --> 00:31:07,930 kind of exciting if you're a teenage boy. 376 00:31:09,932 --> 00:31:11,850 They both sort of liked this kind of 377 00:31:12,017 --> 00:31:14,103 brinkmanship with each other. 378 00:31:21,443 --> 00:31:23,070 They talked a lot about 379 00:31:23,237 --> 00:31:26,490 "Let's meet, let's hang out. When are we going to hang out?" 380 00:31:26,657 --> 00:31:28,075 They'd come to the brink of seeing each other 381 00:31:28,242 --> 00:31:29,660 and then they'd always back away. 382 00:31:29,827 --> 00:31:32,622 So, their whole relationship was the text messages. 383 00:31:41,214 --> 00:31:44,676 The fact that we now all live our lives 384 00:31:44,842 --> 00:31:47,637 via smart phones 385 00:31:47,804 --> 00:31:51,266 is completely central to this case. 386 00:31:51,432 --> 00:31:54,602 It's every parent's worst nightmare. 387 00:31:56,062 --> 00:31:59,649 You have two teenagers connecting in the most 388 00:31:59,816 --> 00:32:02,402 cataclysmic possible way. 389 00:32:04,279 --> 00:32:05,947 Conrad, he found someone 390 00:32:06,114 --> 00:32:09,534 who he could confide these thoughts in. 391 00:32:09,701 --> 00:32:15,582 And Michelle found this access to immediate sort of intimacy. 392 00:32:17,876 --> 00:32:20,087 When people are communicating through text, 393 00:32:20,253 --> 00:32:22,339 strange things can start to happen. 394 00:32:22,506 --> 00:32:25,092 You don't necessarily experience the other person 395 00:32:25,259 --> 00:32:26,801 as another person. 396 00:32:26,968 --> 00:32:28,970 You can't see them, you can't hear them, 397 00:32:29,136 --> 00:32:31,389 you can't see their body language. 398 00:32:32,765 --> 00:32:35,727 You have this voice with you all day long 399 00:32:35,893 --> 00:32:39,230 that will suddenly pop up and say things to you. 400 00:32:40,606 --> 00:32:42,483 I think in some ways people experience that 401 00:32:42,650 --> 00:32:44,193 as a voice in their head, 402 00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:47,405 almost as if it's like an internal hallucination. 403 00:32:48,990 --> 00:32:51,242 You're really interacting with these characters 404 00:32:51,409 --> 00:32:55,246 inside your mind without really understanding, 405 00:32:55,413 --> 00:32:57,165 on a more conscious, rational level, 406 00:32:57,332 --> 00:32:59,834 these text messages are coming from another person 407 00:33:00,001 --> 00:33:02,045 with their own life and their own thoughts 408 00:33:02,212 --> 00:33:04,172 and their own feelings. 409 00:33:10,303 --> 00:33:13,724 In some ways, the big moral failing from Michelle 410 00:33:13,890 --> 00:33:18,604 has to do with an eerie inability to fully apprehend reality. 411 00:33:39,166 --> 00:33:41,502 There's one level of the conversation 412 00:33:41,669 --> 00:33:45,089 that is a kid that's gonna kill himself. 413 00:33:46,507 --> 00:33:50,261 And then there's another level that's a romantic fantasy. 414 00:34:38,435 --> 00:34:41,229 There is an amazing intensity to the messages 415 00:34:41,396 --> 00:34:45,442 that's totally incommensurate with the relationship they had before. 416 00:34:48,445 --> 00:34:51,782 And what I found is that there was all of these references 417 00:34:51,949 --> 00:34:55,411 to different TV shows, to movies, to songs... 418 00:34:57,413 --> 00:35:00,249 But by far, by far the most common source 419 00:35:00,416 --> 00:35:02,918 for that kind of language was Glee. 420 00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:08,716 Glee is a TV show that is set in an American high school 421 00:35:08,883 --> 00:35:13,012 and the stars are Lea Michele and Cory Monteith, 422 00:35:13,179 --> 00:35:14,597 who are not only the stars of the show 423 00:35:14,764 --> 00:35:16,474 but were a couple in real life. 424 00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:20,144 And Michelle was obsessed with Lea Michele. 425 00:35:22,730 --> 00:35:25,900 So, often when she was writing to Conrad or writing about Conrad, 426 00:35:26,067 --> 00:35:31,239 she would borrow from text that was in this TV show. 427 00:35:31,406 --> 00:35:34,033 You are my first love. 428 00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:40,790 And I want more than anything for you to be my last. 429 00:35:46,963 --> 00:35:49,007 And I think she connected with Lea Michele 430 00:35:49,174 --> 00:35:52,636 on kind of a profound level that went beyond 431 00:35:52,802 --> 00:35:56,389 what a normal teen identifying with a star... 432 00:35:56,556 --> 00:35:59,059 you know, might feel like. 433 00:35:59,226 --> 00:36:02,103 A star of the popular show Glee found dead 434 00:36:02,270 --> 00:36:04,856 in his hotel room in Vancouver. The body... 435 00:36:05,023 --> 00:36:10,070 In 2013, Cory Monteith overdosed in a hotel room and died. 436 00:36:10,237 --> 00:36:12,114 This was a year, basically, to the day, 437 00:36:12,281 --> 00:36:13,824 before Conrad died. 438 00:36:13,991 --> 00:36:16,910 The cast of Glee puts on a tribute episode. 439 00:36:20,831 --> 00:36:23,500 Lea Michele sings a song in his honor 440 00:36:23,667 --> 00:36:25,169 and everyone's devastated 441 00:36:25,335 --> 00:36:27,588 because the character has died in the show. 442 00:36:27,755 --> 00:36:31,133 So, it's an incredibly eerie piece of television, because... 443 00:36:31,300 --> 00:36:34,386 you know that this actual actor OD'd in a hotel 444 00:36:34,553 --> 00:36:37,431 somewhere in Canada, but in the world of the show, 445 00:36:37,598 --> 00:36:40,141 this football quarterback has died tragically 446 00:36:40,308 --> 00:36:44,354 and everyone is singing pop songs to mourn him. 447 00:36:45,397 --> 00:36:49,442 And Michelle introduces that to Conrad in October 2013. 448 00:36:51,903 --> 00:36:54,656 Michelle says, "I just want you to know how much I love you 449 00:36:54,823 --> 00:36:57,993 and it really made me think of what it would be like if you weren't here." 450 00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:00,912 Totally out of the blue from what was happening. 451 00:37:05,417 --> 00:37:08,420 It's sort of the first moment where you realize that Michelle 452 00:37:08,587 --> 00:37:10,547 has, like, a completely other story 453 00:37:10,714 --> 00:37:13,550 that's going on that has nothing to do with Conrad specifically. 454 00:37:15,135 --> 00:37:19,056 But the idea that she would be the person in Glee 455 00:37:19,223 --> 00:37:21,517 who had a boyfriend who was the quarterback 456 00:37:21,684 --> 00:37:23,435 who had sort of tragically died, 457 00:37:23,602 --> 00:37:28,482 I think was kind of more real to her than it probably is to most people. 458 00:37:29,608 --> 00:37:33,446 -I had it all planned out. -Now what? 459 00:37:34,864 --> 00:37:38,492 -I don't know, something different. -Maybe something better. 460 00:37:38,659 --> 00:37:40,828 I just... I don't think that that's possible. 461 00:37:42,580 --> 00:37:44,165 He was my person. 462 00:37:51,422 --> 00:37:53,925 One of the eerie parts of the text messages 463 00:37:54,092 --> 00:37:57,345 that Michelle sent to her friends where she quotes from Lea Michele, 464 00:37:57,512 --> 00:38:00,098 is that they don't all come from Glee; 465 00:38:00,265 --> 00:38:03,226 they come from interviews that the real actress is giving 466 00:38:03,393 --> 00:38:07,981 about her real dead boyfriend to real talk show hosts. 467 00:38:08,148 --> 00:38:10,400 I literally lived every day of my life 468 00:38:10,567 --> 00:38:13,320 feeling like the luckiest girl in the whole world. 469 00:38:13,486 --> 00:38:16,114 I just... I just thought he was the greatest man. 470 00:38:21,286 --> 00:38:23,413 This is weird. This is really weird. 471 00:38:27,918 --> 00:38:32,965 I think it translates to that Michelle had little if any idea of who she was. 472 00:38:33,131 --> 00:38:36,927 That she identified extremely strongly 473 00:38:37,094 --> 00:38:39,596 with this other world, this other life. 474 00:38:57,740 --> 00:39:01,118 Alice was a teammate of Michelle's 475 00:39:01,285 --> 00:39:05,331 on a travel softball team in the spring of 2012. 476 00:39:06,582 --> 00:39:09,335 They instantly became incredibly close. 477 00:39:09,502 --> 00:39:12,630 They went to, uh, each other's houses, 478 00:39:12,797 --> 00:39:15,591 they slept over, they took a team trip to Montreal 479 00:39:15,758 --> 00:39:19,887 and when other, uh, kids on the team were going out to eat as a group, 480 00:39:20,054 --> 00:39:21,597 they would kind of sneak off and eat together, 481 00:39:21,764 --> 00:39:23,808 just the two of them. 482 00:39:24,934 --> 00:39:27,228 It was an intense teen friendship 483 00:39:27,395 --> 00:39:30,231 that was almost like a love affair for Michelle. 484 00:39:51,795 --> 00:39:53,296 Kind of abruptly, 485 00:39:53,463 --> 00:39:55,215 right around the time that Michelle met Conrad, 486 00:39:55,382 --> 00:39:57,426 Alice cut off contact with her. 487 00:40:01,388 --> 00:40:05,475 And in 2014, in the summer... 488 00:40:06,810 --> 00:40:11,482 Michelle, for some reason, starts really missing Alice. 489 00:40:11,648 --> 00:40:14,234 And this is all happening right around the time 490 00:40:14,401 --> 00:40:16,320 that Conrad is really suicidal. 491 00:40:24,078 --> 00:40:28,958 It seems to me that a lot of the emotional logic of the case 492 00:40:29,125 --> 00:40:31,252 really has more to do with the friendship with Alice 493 00:40:31,419 --> 00:40:33,838 than it has to do with the relationship with Conrad. 494 00:40:42,472 --> 00:40:44,515 I called Alice and I said, you know, 495 00:40:44,682 --> 00:40:46,350 "I want to interview you because it sounds like 496 00:40:46,517 --> 00:40:48,770 Michelle was in love with you." 497 00:40:48,936 --> 00:40:51,439 And I met Alice and her mother. 498 00:40:52,689 --> 00:40:56,777 The reason they were meeting me was to refute exactly that story. 499 00:40:56,944 --> 00:41:00,197 So, they were meeting to say, 500 00:41:00,364 --> 00:41:02,741 "Michelle is a sociopath, and she made this all up. 501 00:41:02,908 --> 00:41:06,203 There was never anything physical about the relationship." 502 00:41:07,246 --> 00:41:11,333 And if I didn't feel for Michelle in any moment before that, 503 00:41:11,500 --> 00:41:13,335 in that moment I felt... 504 00:41:13,502 --> 00:41:16,088 a sympathy for how alone she was. 505 00:41:18,716 --> 00:41:21,510 She had this desire for things to be more intense, 506 00:41:21,677 --> 00:41:24,138 more like stories than they really were. 507 00:41:34,607 --> 00:41:36,109 She didn't live in reality; 508 00:41:36,275 --> 00:41:41,781 like, she lived in some kind of fantasy... I think. 509 00:41:41,948 --> 00:41:46,160 But she's just not a well person, so... 510 00:41:47,370 --> 00:41:51,624 How can you be that angry or how can you be that... 511 00:41:55,670 --> 00:41:57,047 when someone is not... 512 00:41:58,506 --> 00:42:00,216 She's not well. 513 00:42:00,383 --> 00:42:02,677 That's all I say. She's not well. 514 00:42:28,871 --> 00:42:31,999 The pattern that would happen in the last few weeks of Conrad's life 515 00:42:32,166 --> 00:42:35,502 is Conrad would say, "I'm gonna do it tonight." 516 00:42:35,669 --> 00:42:38,005 Then the next morning he would be alive. 517 00:42:38,172 --> 00:42:41,508 Then a few days later he would say, "Okay, I'm ready to do it tonight. 518 00:42:41,675 --> 00:42:43,344 I'm gonna do it," and then the next morning, 519 00:42:43,511 --> 00:42:45,221 he would be alive. 520 00:43:14,709 --> 00:43:17,629 July 12th, when Conrad dies, 521 00:43:17,795 --> 00:43:19,672 there's a kind of reality flicker, 522 00:43:19,839 --> 00:43:24,260 where it's not entirely clear that it's actually happened. 523 00:43:38,483 --> 00:43:40,152 I'll tell you something really weird. 524 00:43:40,318 --> 00:43:42,946 Five days before Conrad died, Michelle goes to a movie theater 525 00:43:43,113 --> 00:43:44,865 and sees The Fault in Our Stars. 526 00:43:45,032 --> 00:43:48,035 And at the climax of the movie, 527 00:43:48,201 --> 00:43:49,995 the boy, Gus, 528 00:43:50,162 --> 00:43:53,832 is dying in a gas station in a Jeep. 529 00:43:53,999 --> 00:43:57,753 And he calls his girlfriend for help. 530 00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:01,215 -Augustus. -Hazel Grace. 531 00:44:01,382 --> 00:44:05,302 Hi. Oh, my God, hi. Hi. I love you. 532 00:44:05,469 --> 00:44:08,138 And she calls the police and he gets into an ambulance. 533 00:44:09,557 --> 00:44:11,851 So, it doesn't seem implausible to me 534 00:44:12,017 --> 00:44:16,105 that there were other stories in Michelle's mind 535 00:44:16,272 --> 00:44:20,151 that reminded her of what was happening at that moment. 536 00:44:20,318 --> 00:44:24,780 And I think the question is whether or not 537 00:44:24,947 --> 00:44:27,575 she was kind of writing some story in her head 538 00:44:27,742 --> 00:44:29,452 or writing some movie that for some reason 539 00:44:29,619 --> 00:44:32,789 had to end with him dying. 540 00:44:32,955 --> 00:44:37,585 Or whether she literally has no idea what she's done. 541 00:44:43,007 --> 00:44:47,554 What is obvious to me is that when 542 00:44:47,720 --> 00:44:52,308 he really needed someone to understand how serious it was, 543 00:44:52,475 --> 00:44:58,231 and to go over his head to the cops, to his mother, 544 00:44:58,398 --> 00:44:59,900 she wasn't that person. 545 00:45:00,066 --> 00:45:04,696 And that's her kind of tragic failing. 546 00:45:06,822 --> 00:45:11,452 She, who wanted so badly to have a best friend 547 00:45:11,619 --> 00:45:14,163 or someone she could sort of have this intense, 548 00:45:14,330 --> 00:45:16,582 dyadic affair with, 549 00:45:16,749 --> 00:45:18,167 had the opportunity to do that 550 00:45:18,334 --> 00:45:21,671 with this kid who that night needed someone 551 00:45:21,838 --> 00:45:25,967 to be his friend and to say, "You are being fucking crazy 552 00:45:26,134 --> 00:45:29,262 and I'm calling the police." And... 553 00:45:29,429 --> 00:45:32,098 she didn't do it. 554 00:46:09,928 --> 00:46:11,805 "His death is my fault. 555 00:46:11,972 --> 00:46:14,475 Like, honestly, I could've stopped him. 556 00:46:14,641 --> 00:46:17,186 I was on the phone with him and he got out of the car 557 00:46:17,352 --> 00:46:20,439 because it was working. And he got scared 558 00:46:20,606 --> 00:46:23,525 and I fucking told him to get back in, Sam, 559 00:46:23,692 --> 00:46:27,446 because I knew he would do it all over again the next day. 560 00:46:27,613 --> 00:46:31,116 And I couldn't have him live that way, the way he was living, anymore. 561 00:46:31,283 --> 00:46:35,079 I couldn't do it. I wouldn't let him." 562 00:46:35,246 --> 00:46:37,331 Those were her words, Your Honor. 563 00:46:37,498 --> 00:46:40,918 She says to her friend, "If I had done something, 564 00:46:41,085 --> 00:46:44,422 if I had just told him that I loved him, 565 00:46:44,589 --> 00:46:46,674 he would still be alive." 566 00:46:46,841 --> 00:46:48,676 Your Honor, this is a suicide, 567 00:46:48,843 --> 00:46:51,095 as I said in my opening statement, and I say now. 568 00:46:51,262 --> 00:46:54,849 What we're dealing with is a suicide and not a homicide. 569 00:46:55,016 --> 00:46:57,518 And this is the government's burden 570 00:46:57,685 --> 00:47:01,940 to prove that it was a homicide, a manslaughter under the elements. 571 00:47:02,106 --> 00:47:04,526 Proof, not by a probable cause, 572 00:47:04,692 --> 00:47:06,069 not by clear and convincing evidence, 573 00:47:06,236 --> 00:47:08,947 but proof beyond a reasonable doubt. 574 00:47:09,114 --> 00:47:12,784 If you go through and you look at who actually created 575 00:47:12,951 --> 00:47:15,120 this suicidal situation, 576 00:47:15,286 --> 00:47:18,456 he brought her, with all of her baggage, 577 00:47:18,623 --> 00:47:23,086 along for this sad journey of his to eventually take his own life. 578 00:47:23,253 --> 00:47:24,963 Despite his issues, 579 00:47:25,130 --> 00:47:27,841 Conrad Roy was a very self-aware young man. 580 00:47:28,008 --> 00:47:30,594 He knew when he needed help. 581 00:47:30,761 --> 00:47:32,804 You know what he said was the one reason 582 00:47:32,971 --> 00:47:36,141 that he wanted to live? His family. 583 00:47:36,308 --> 00:47:39,311 Before the defendant got her hooks into him 584 00:47:39,478 --> 00:47:43,524 and started telling him to die every day, he was hopeful. 585 00:47:43,690 --> 00:47:47,528 This is a gentleman who was sadly subjected 586 00:47:47,694 --> 00:47:49,363 to domestic violence. 587 00:47:49,530 --> 00:47:53,492 In fact, he tells that he had daily intrusive thoughts 588 00:47:53,659 --> 00:47:55,494 of witnessing domestic violence. 589 00:47:55,661 --> 00:47:57,705 Those are his words he's telling his therapist 590 00:47:57,872 --> 00:47:59,665 in the counselors in the records, Your Honor. 591 00:47:59,832 --> 00:48:02,376 During the days leading up to this, Your Honor, 592 00:48:02,543 --> 00:48:06,380 he told her, "I'm scared. I don't have it in me. 593 00:48:06,547 --> 00:48:09,717 Another day wouldn't hurt." 594 00:48:09,884 --> 00:48:12,970 Every time he came up with an excuse not to do it, 595 00:48:13,137 --> 00:48:15,389 she kicked his feet out right from under him 596 00:48:15,556 --> 00:48:19,560 and told him why it didn't matter, why he still needed to die. 597 00:48:19,727 --> 00:48:23,147 Mr. Roy himself stated to Michelle Carter, 598 00:48:23,314 --> 00:48:24,691 "I want to die." 599 00:48:24,857 --> 00:48:27,819 Straight up. Those words. "I want to die." 600 00:48:27,986 --> 00:48:30,863 To turn around and say she's bullying him 601 00:48:31,030 --> 00:48:33,992 or she got him to do something he didn't want to do, 602 00:48:34,159 --> 00:48:37,245 he's asking her, "You want to help?" 603 00:48:37,412 --> 00:48:39,873 His words. "You want to help?" 604 00:48:40,039 --> 00:48:42,709 He doesn't tell her, "Stop this. 605 00:48:42,876 --> 00:48:47,130 Don't call me, lose my number, stop texting me, block call," 606 00:48:47,297 --> 00:48:50,550 nothing of the like. He continues to use her 607 00:48:50,717 --> 00:48:54,012 for his support to carry out his plan. 608 00:48:58,850 --> 00:49:00,602 He goes down to K-mart. 609 00:49:00,769 --> 00:49:04,523 He doesn't do a U-turn. Not seeking any help. 610 00:49:04,690 --> 00:49:07,776 Police department down the road a half a mile. 611 00:49:07,943 --> 00:49:10,779 He has his cell phone with him. What's he do? 612 00:49:10,946 --> 00:49:13,282 He actually... In the phone records, he calls Michelle Carter. 613 00:49:13,449 --> 00:49:15,200 The first phone call right there, he calls her. 614 00:49:15,367 --> 00:49:16,744 He doesn't call 911. 615 00:49:16,910 --> 00:49:19,037 Doesn't call anybody else, he calls Michelle. 616 00:49:19,203 --> 00:49:20,663 I suggest why? Because he knows 617 00:49:20,830 --> 00:49:23,833 that she is encouraging and supporting his plan. 618 00:49:27,378 --> 00:49:29,297 She created the harm, Your Honor, 619 00:49:29,464 --> 00:49:32,801 when she told him to get back in the car. 620 00:49:32,967 --> 00:49:35,595 He was scared. She knows he's gonna die 621 00:49:35,762 --> 00:49:39,266 and she says, "I could've done something to stop it, 622 00:49:39,432 --> 00:49:43,228 and if I had, he would still be alive today." 623 00:49:43,395 --> 00:49:46,857 She, by her own admission, she caused his death. 624 00:49:47,023 --> 00:49:51,486 She knew at that moment he did not want to die. 625 00:49:51,653 --> 00:49:55,490 The Commonwealth is conflating this idea of "he was scared" 626 00:49:55,657 --> 00:49:57,743 as "he didn't want to do it." 627 00:49:57,910 --> 00:50:00,495 That's what they're doing; they're saying he... he told... 628 00:50:00,662 --> 00:50:03,749 Michelle told a friend that Conrad got out of the car 629 00:50:03,916 --> 00:50:05,709 and he was scared because it was working. 630 00:50:05,876 --> 00:50:07,795 So, Conrad apparently knew it was working 631 00:50:07,961 --> 00:50:09,505 and yet chose to get back in. 632 00:50:09,672 --> 00:50:11,548 But because he was scared or afraid, 633 00:50:11,715 --> 00:50:13,842 they want to basically replace that word, 634 00:50:14,009 --> 00:50:17,263 that somehow, therefore, after that, 635 00:50:17,429 --> 00:50:20,516 by going back in the car, that wasn't his own decision. 636 00:50:20,683 --> 00:50:22,935 He chose to get in that car. 637 00:50:23,102 --> 00:50:25,521 He chose to breathe in the fumes. 638 00:50:25,688 --> 00:50:27,148 There's no evidence that Michelle Carter 639 00:50:27,314 --> 00:50:31,527 has any physical actions whatsoever in this case. 640 00:50:31,694 --> 00:50:34,697 It was all of his physical activity. 641 00:50:34,864 --> 00:50:37,366 Did he get back in the car? Yes. 642 00:50:37,533 --> 00:50:39,494 But she was the cause of that, Your Honor; 643 00:50:39,660 --> 00:50:43,331 she ordered him back in that car knowing what would happen. 644 00:50:43,498 --> 00:50:44,916 It's a new day and age, Your Honor. 645 00:50:45,083 --> 00:50:47,293 And the phones that we have now 646 00:50:47,460 --> 00:50:51,089 allow you to be virtually present with somebody. 647 00:50:51,256 --> 00:50:54,384 People fall in love on the Internet and via text. 648 00:50:54,551 --> 00:50:57,971 People bully via text and the Internet. 649 00:50:58,138 --> 00:51:02,267 And you can encourage someone to die via text 650 00:51:02,434 --> 00:51:05,812 and you can commit a crime via text. 651 00:51:05,979 --> 00:51:09,190 She absolutely knew what she was doing. 652 00:51:09,357 --> 00:51:13,737 She absolutely knew it was wrong and she absolutely 653 00:51:13,904 --> 00:51:16,114 caused the death of this 18-year-old boy. 654 00:51:16,281 --> 00:51:18,116 And I ask you to find her guilty. 655 00:51:32,714 --> 00:51:35,134 This world is sick today, in my opinion. 656 00:51:35,300 --> 00:51:37,302 No one has any morals. 657 00:51:37,469 --> 00:51:39,388 Lack of character. 658 00:51:39,555 --> 00:51:42,975 Uh. I just find it... I just find it very troubling today. 659 00:51:43,142 --> 00:51:45,102 Because the right thing to do would've been for her 660 00:51:45,269 --> 00:51:47,188 to go get him help. 661 00:51:47,354 --> 00:51:50,399 He wanted to get out of the car, I believe. He did get out. 662 00:51:50,566 --> 00:51:54,320 She told him to get back in, quote, unquote, and do it. 663 00:51:54,487 --> 00:51:57,657 I'm sorry, but she... she deserves manslaughter. 664 00:51:57,823 --> 00:51:59,283 Absolutely. 665 00:51:59,450 --> 00:52:01,911 I honestly think it was foul what she did. 666 00:52:02,078 --> 00:52:04,997 She really shouldn't have done that. I mean, if you really love somebody, 667 00:52:05,164 --> 00:52:07,041 you don't encourage them to kill themselves. 668 00:52:07,208 --> 00:52:09,252 That's just... That's absolutely crazy. 669 00:52:09,419 --> 00:52:10,795 It's kind of like murder. 670 00:52:10,962 --> 00:52:12,672 it's basically murder, is how I see it in my eyes. 671 00:52:12,839 --> 00:52:14,298 It's basically murder. 672 00:52:14,465 --> 00:52:17,135 She was pretty much saying, "Just do it." 673 00:52:17,302 --> 00:52:18,928 But there's nothing illegal about that. 674 00:52:19,095 --> 00:52:20,597 And then didn't he stop, 675 00:52:20,763 --> 00:52:22,140 and then she said, "What are you doing? 676 00:52:22,307 --> 00:52:24,559 Get back in the car. You already have it all set up. 677 00:52:24,726 --> 00:52:26,352 You know, just end it already." 678 00:52:26,519 --> 00:52:27,896 Wow. 679 00:52:28,063 --> 00:52:30,231 But that's more of a moral thing, I think. 680 00:52:30,398 --> 00:52:31,775 But there's nothing illegal about it. 681 00:52:31,941 --> 00:52:33,318 -There's actually nothing wrong with it. -No, no. 682 00:52:33,485 --> 00:52:34,903 She's not guilty. She didn't do anything illegal. 683 00:52:35,070 --> 00:52:37,531 -No, she didn't... -It was wrong, but it's not illegal. 684 00:52:37,697 --> 00:52:39,449 That's like me telling you to jump off a bridge. 685 00:52:39,616 --> 00:52:42,160 -If you jump off it, is it my fault? -Yeah. 686 00:52:42,327 --> 00:52:45,789 She would've said to him, "Jump... Jump over the bridge." 687 00:52:45,956 --> 00:52:47,916 He would've done it, so therefore it's... 688 00:52:48,083 --> 00:52:49,876 it is her fault. 689 00:52:50,043 --> 00:52:53,046 How can this woman be held responsible for something that 690 00:52:53,213 --> 00:52:54,631 she in essence did not do 691 00:52:54,798 --> 00:52:57,092 and he had free will over his actions? 692 00:52:57,259 --> 00:52:59,094 It's mind boggling to me. 693 00:52:59,261 --> 00:53:01,472 If she was telling him to rob a bank and he robbed a bank, 694 00:53:01,638 --> 00:53:04,975 is she responsible for this when he went in and... 695 00:53:05,142 --> 00:53:07,936 and did those actions voluntarily? I don't know. 696 00:53:08,103 --> 00:53:10,814 I just don't see how you can punish this girl 697 00:53:10,981 --> 00:53:12,650 the rest of her life for this. 698 00:53:13,776 --> 00:53:16,695 My wife and I talk about this and, you know, 699 00:53:16,862 --> 00:53:19,824 she thinks in one direction and I think in the other. 700 00:53:19,990 --> 00:53:22,034 That's 'cause we're married, go figure. 701 00:53:22,201 --> 00:53:25,830 She thinks it's more the responsibility of the victim 702 00:53:25,997 --> 00:53:29,625 than the responsibility of the... the young lady, you know? 703 00:53:29,792 --> 00:53:31,918 And I can see her point. 704 00:53:32,085 --> 00:53:39,009 I think it was more immoral or, uh, unethical, you know, 705 00:53:39,176 --> 00:53:41,470 to not report that to somebody. 706 00:53:41,636 --> 00:53:43,597 I don't know. I guess it's on the judge, 707 00:53:43,764 --> 00:53:46,475 how he's gonna... how he's gonna rule it. 708 00:53:46,642 --> 00:53:49,937 Certainly wouldn't want to date her next. 709 00:53:56,819 --> 00:53:59,530 Breaking news: The judge has reached a verdict 710 00:53:59,697 --> 00:54:01,740 in the Michelle Carter manslaughter trial. 711 00:54:01,907 --> 00:54:06,245 This is a highly anticipated decision of whether Michelle Carter is guilty 712 00:54:06,412 --> 00:54:10,791 of involuntary manslaughter in her boyfriend, Conrad Roy's death. 713 00:54:10,958 --> 00:54:12,668 -Come on, get out of there. -Come on. 714 00:54:12,835 --> 00:54:14,420 Get out of there. 715 00:54:14,587 --> 00:54:18,215 Judge Lawrence Moniz took just two days to decide this. 716 00:54:18,382 --> 00:54:20,593 He will announce it at 11:00 AM. 717 00:54:25,973 --> 00:54:29,102 Michelle Carter's fate now in the hands of the judge, 718 00:54:29,268 --> 00:54:31,062 who will render the ultimate verdict. 719 00:54:31,229 --> 00:54:33,523 And at the center of this trial, 720 00:54:33,690 --> 00:54:38,111 whether it's a crime to tell someone to commit suicide. 721 00:54:38,278 --> 00:54:40,029 Good afternoon, everyone. 722 00:54:40,196 --> 00:54:42,156 Good afternoon, Your Honor. 723 00:54:44,200 --> 00:54:46,286 The law does not require 724 00:54:46,453 --> 00:54:50,498 that any explanation as to a verdict be given. 725 00:54:50,665 --> 00:54:55,670 Nonetheless, I am of the opinion 726 00:54:55,837 --> 00:55:02,010 that some explanation of my verdicts is warranted. 727 00:55:02,177 --> 00:55:05,180 I have essentially divided the evidence in this case 728 00:55:05,347 --> 00:55:08,058 into three components. 729 00:55:08,225 --> 00:55:09,935 The first component 730 00:55:10,102 --> 00:55:16,024 comprises roughly the period of June 29th, 2014 731 00:55:16,191 --> 00:55:18,485 through the ending of the text messages 732 00:55:18,652 --> 00:55:25,868 between Miss Carter and Mr. Roy on or about July 12th, 2014. 733 00:55:26,994 --> 00:55:31,248 The second period commences immediately thereafter, 734 00:55:31,415 --> 00:55:36,086 through July 13th, 2014. 735 00:55:38,047 --> 00:55:40,132 This court first finds 736 00:55:40,299 --> 00:55:42,259 that the Commonwealth has proven 737 00:55:42,426 --> 00:55:45,096 beyond a reasonable doubt 738 00:55:45,262 --> 00:55:47,890 that the actions taken by Miss Carter 739 00:55:48,057 --> 00:55:53,104 as to the period from June 30th to July 12th 740 00:55:53,271 --> 00:55:58,067 constituted wanton and reckless conduct by her, 741 00:55:59,402 --> 00:56:03,573 and serious disregard of the well-being of Mr. Roy. 742 00:56:05,909 --> 00:56:11,915 The Commonwealth has not proven, as to that time period, 743 00:56:12,081 --> 00:56:15,543 that said reckless or wanton behavior 744 00:56:15,710 --> 00:56:18,630 caused the death of Mr. Roy. 745 00:56:21,591 --> 00:56:23,927 Mr. Roy was struggling with his issues 746 00:56:24,094 --> 00:56:27,305 and took significant actions of his own. 747 00:56:28,598 --> 00:56:31,643 He secured the generator. He secured the water pump. 748 00:56:31,810 --> 00:56:35,063 He researched how to fix the generator. 749 00:56:37,482 --> 00:56:41,278 He located his vehicle in an unnoticeable area 750 00:56:41,445 --> 00:56:45,199 and commenced his attempt by starting the pump. 751 00:56:47,618 --> 00:56:53,499 However, he breaks that chain of self-causation 752 00:56:55,250 --> 00:56:57,086 by exiting the vehicle. 753 00:56:58,545 --> 00:57:01,924 He takes himself out of the toxic environment 754 00:57:02,091 --> 00:57:03,801 that it has become. 755 00:57:05,344 --> 00:57:10,057 When Miss Carter realizes that Mr. Roy has exited the truck, 756 00:57:11,225 --> 00:57:14,478 she instructs him to get back into the truck, 757 00:57:16,314 --> 00:57:20,818 which she has reason to know is or is becoming 758 00:57:20,985 --> 00:57:25,323 a toxic environment inconsistent with human life. 759 00:57:27,450 --> 00:57:30,578 This court finds where one's action 760 00:57:30,745 --> 00:57:34,249 create a life-threatening risk to another, 761 00:57:34,415 --> 00:57:37,502 there is a duty to take reasonable steps 762 00:57:37,669 --> 00:57:40,630 to alleviate the risk. 763 00:57:41,631 --> 00:57:44,675 The reckless failure to fulfill this duty 764 00:57:44,842 --> 00:57:47,803 can result in a charge of manslaughter. 765 00:57:49,680 --> 00:57:52,892 Knowing that Mr. Roy is in the truck, 766 00:57:53,058 --> 00:57:56,479 knowing the condition of the truck, 767 00:57:56,645 --> 00:57:59,273 Miss Carter takes no action 768 00:58:00,566 --> 00:58:03,903 in the furtherance of the duty that she has created 769 00:58:04,070 --> 00:58:07,281 by instructing Mr. Roy to get back into the truck. 770 00:58:08,991 --> 00:58:12,537 Consequently, this court has found that the Commonwealth 771 00:58:12,703 --> 00:58:14,914 has proven beyond a reasonable doubt 772 00:58:15,081 --> 00:58:20,211 that Miss Carter's actions and also her failure to act 773 00:58:20,378 --> 00:58:23,756 where she had a self-created duty to Mr. Roy, 774 00:58:23,923 --> 00:58:28,303 constituted each and all wanton and reckless conduct. 775 00:58:29,387 --> 00:58:31,514 And this court further finds that the Commonwealth 776 00:58:31,681 --> 00:58:34,058 has proven beyond a reasonable doubt 777 00:58:34,225 --> 00:58:38,730 that said conduct caused the death of Mr. Roy. 778 00:58:38,897 --> 00:58:41,191 Miss Carter, please stand. 779 00:58:43,526 --> 00:58:47,531 This court, having reviewed the evidence 780 00:58:47,697 --> 00:58:50,367 and applied the law thereto, 781 00:58:50,534 --> 00:58:55,580 now finds you guilty on the indictment charging you 782 00:58:55,747 --> 00:59:01,211 with the involuntary manslaughter of the person Conrad Roy III. 783 00:59:01,378 --> 00:59:02,796 You may be seated. 784 00:59:02,963 --> 00:59:07,134 That verdict is now recorded and it is in writing as well. 785 00:59:07,301 --> 00:59:10,721 This matter will stand continued to August 3rd 786 00:59:10,888 --> 00:59:13,140 for a sentencing hearing. Thank you very much. 787 00:59:13,307 --> 00:59:14,892 All rise. 788 00:59:22,900 --> 00:59:25,778 Very, very disappointed with the outcome, 789 00:59:25,945 --> 00:59:28,197 however, because the case is still pending, 790 00:59:28,364 --> 00:59:30,199 beyond saying I'm disappointed, 791 00:59:30,366 --> 00:59:33,577 I'm not gonna comment any further, so thank you all. 792 00:59:33,744 --> 00:59:36,581 -Do you have an appeal plan? -Are you surprised though? 793 00:59:47,675 --> 00:59:49,052 Good afternoon. 794 00:59:49,218 --> 00:59:52,430 Since we still have to return to court for the sentencing phase of this case, 795 00:59:52,597 --> 00:59:54,599 I will keep my comments brief. 796 00:59:54,766 --> 00:59:56,309 Although we are very pleased with the verdict, 797 00:59:56,476 --> 00:59:58,645 in reality, there are no winners here today. 798 00:59:58,812 --> 01:00:01,815 Conrad, an 18-year-old boy, is dead, and the young woman... 799 01:00:01,981 --> 01:00:04,651 a young woman is now convicted of causing his death. 800 01:00:04,818 --> 01:00:06,611 Two families have been torn apart 801 01:00:06,778 --> 01:00:09,322 and will be affected by this for years to come. 802 01:00:09,489 --> 01:00:10,865 This was a unique case 803 01:00:11,032 --> 01:00:13,743 that dealt with a lot of important issues in our society today. 804 01:00:13,910 --> 01:00:16,329 But in the end, the case was really about 805 01:00:16,496 --> 01:00:18,790 one young man and one young woman 806 01:00:18,957 --> 01:00:22,002 who were brought together by tragic circumstances. 807 01:00:30,802 --> 01:00:33,055 What do you want the sentence to be? 808 01:00:36,058 --> 01:00:37,476 What do you want the sentence to be? 809 01:00:37,643 --> 01:00:39,353 Are you satisfied with what happened though? 810 01:00:39,520 --> 01:00:41,146 Do you feel like you get some relief? 811 01:00:41,313 --> 01:00:44,274 Mr. Roy, what kind of relief are you feeling right now? 812 01:00:48,445 --> 01:00:50,030 - Come on. - Careful behind you. 813 01:00:53,993 --> 01:00:56,162 Would you like to say anything to the judge? 814 01:00:56,328 --> 01:00:58,247 Justice for Conrad. 815 01:01:01,917 --> 01:01:04,837 -Hey guys. tell us how you feel? -No comment. 816 01:01:05,004 --> 01:01:06,797 Come on, get the door unlocked. 817 01:01:06,964 --> 01:01:10,343 Can you tell us what you think about this verdict? 818 01:01:12,095 --> 01:01:14,931 Can you just tell us what you think about the verdict? 819 01:01:15,098 --> 01:01:16,724 Do you feel like justice was served here? 820 01:01:16,891 --> 01:01:19,018 Watch out. Excuse me. 821 01:01:30,321 --> 01:01:34,075 There are many verdicts that you'll see, 822 01:01:34,242 --> 01:01:36,244 whether I've been involved in them or, you know, 823 01:01:36,411 --> 01:01:38,663 many cases that I haven't been involved, you'll say, 824 01:01:38,830 --> 01:01:41,666 "Well, this prosecution really has the law on their side. 825 01:01:41,833 --> 01:01:43,710 They have the facts on their side. 826 01:01:43,877 --> 01:01:46,296 I don't think that that was the case here. 827 01:01:46,463 --> 01:01:48,215 I think, you know, people... 828 01:01:48,381 --> 01:01:50,926 There are plenty of people who are still scratching their head, 829 01:01:51,093 --> 01:01:52,719 thinking, "How is this a crime?" 830 01:01:52,886 --> 01:01:57,181 How could the judge do what he did and find her guilty on this evidence? 831 01:01:57,348 --> 01:02:01,519 In rendering his verdict, he went so far as to say 832 01:02:01,686 --> 01:02:06,149 up until the point in time that Conrad was in the truck 833 01:02:06,315 --> 01:02:10,737 with the water pump going, it was on Conrad Roy; 834 01:02:10,903 --> 01:02:12,530 Michelle would not have been found guilty. 835 01:02:12,697 --> 01:02:15,617 Then it turned on a dime and said, however, 836 01:02:15,783 --> 01:02:20,205 when he got out of his truck, she had a self-created duty, 837 01:02:20,371 --> 01:02:22,749 knowing that he was getting back into the car, 838 01:02:22,916 --> 01:02:25,502 to prevent it when she wasn't physically present. 839 01:02:25,668 --> 01:02:29,255 Um, that's when it obviously went downhill and that was, uh, 840 01:02:29,422 --> 01:02:32,801 was somewhat of a surprise to hear him saying that. 841 01:02:40,308 --> 01:02:43,020 The huge question at the heart of this case 842 01:02:43,186 --> 01:02:46,440 is whether Michelle told Conrad to get back in the truck. 843 01:02:47,816 --> 01:02:49,484 It's a big question, because there's... 844 01:02:49,651 --> 01:02:51,486 there's meta-data for the phone calls. 845 01:02:51,653 --> 01:02:53,572 But there's no recordings. 846 01:02:53,739 --> 01:02:56,700 So, there's absolutely no way to know whether 847 01:02:56,867 --> 01:02:59,328 Michelle telling him to get back in the truck 848 01:02:59,495 --> 01:03:02,414 was an event that took place, whether it was something 849 01:03:02,581 --> 01:03:04,708 that she wanted people to think had happened. 850 01:03:04,875 --> 01:03:07,378 Whether it was like a manifestation of her guilt. 851 01:03:09,255 --> 01:03:13,175 Why did Michelle wait two months to tell Samantha Boardman, 852 01:03:13,342 --> 01:03:15,970 "I told him to get back in the truck"? 853 01:03:27,481 --> 01:03:30,985 I don't think we can know that Michelle's story is at all true. 854 01:03:31,152 --> 01:03:34,530 It's not... I don't think it's a true story. 855 01:03:34,697 --> 01:03:36,616 There's no text she said it. 856 01:03:36,783 --> 01:03:40,828 There's no recording of a phone that she said it. 857 01:03:40,995 --> 01:03:45,959 Michelle frequently made contradictory statements. 858 01:03:46,125 --> 01:03:50,046 One of the most striking was that she told her friends 859 01:03:50,213 --> 01:03:52,549 that she had never had sex. 860 01:04:07,355 --> 01:04:11,443 Then she told a friend that she had had sex with Conrad. 861 01:04:22,162 --> 01:04:25,791 Then she told her friend that Conrad had raped her. 862 01:04:25,958 --> 01:04:28,293 That he had forced himself on her. 863 01:04:38,596 --> 01:04:42,349 What's scary about Michelle's description of being assaulted 864 01:04:42,516 --> 01:04:44,977 is that her friends don't believe her. 865 01:04:45,144 --> 01:04:47,229 That there's a sense that, like, 866 01:04:47,396 --> 01:04:49,440 Michelle says some stuff that's true 867 01:04:49,607 --> 01:04:53,069 and some stuff that's not true and everyone kind of knows it. 868 01:04:53,236 --> 01:04:57,532 I didn't see the DA bringing that up and saying, 869 01:04:57,698 --> 01:05:00,785 "Well, Michelle was raped by Conrad. 870 01:05:00,952 --> 01:05:03,579 How do we know she was raped by Conrad? 871 01:05:03,746 --> 01:05:06,290 She actually told somebody in a text." 872 01:05:06,457 --> 01:05:10,378 The DA said again and again 873 01:05:10,545 --> 01:05:13,548 she was a liar who couldn't be trusted, 874 01:05:13,715 --> 01:05:17,427 because the DA was obsessed with not making her sympathetic 875 01:05:17,594 --> 01:05:21,139 without realizing she was undermining her own case. 876 01:05:21,306 --> 01:05:26,019 But this is the constant twisting by the DA of data 877 01:05:26,186 --> 01:05:29,231 so that it became impossible to disentangle. 878 01:05:32,442 --> 01:05:38,699 Most of America believes that she texted him this in writing. 879 01:05:38,865 --> 01:05:40,325 According to prosecutors, 880 01:05:40,492 --> 01:05:42,577 Carter even texting him to get back in the truck 881 01:05:42,744 --> 01:05:44,454 when he has second thoughts. 882 01:05:44,621 --> 01:05:48,458 And when I meet people in airports and I'd say to them, uh, 883 01:05:48,625 --> 01:05:50,961 "Hey folks, do you know about this... 884 01:05:51,128 --> 01:05:53,172 this, uh, lady, uh, you know, 885 01:05:53,338 --> 01:05:55,215 who supposedly told her boyfriend to kill himself?" 886 01:05:55,382 --> 01:05:57,885 "Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah. She... She texted her to death." 887 01:05:58,052 --> 01:06:00,554 I said, "Would you believe that there was never anything written down? 888 01:06:00,721 --> 01:06:02,222 We have no written record." 889 01:06:02,389 --> 01:06:03,849 "No, Doc." 890 01:06:04,016 --> 01:06:05,434 And people get mad. 891 01:06:05,601 --> 01:06:07,812 They say things like fake news again. 892 01:06:07,978 --> 01:06:10,563 They we're just cherry picking when to believe Michelle 893 01:06:10,730 --> 01:06:12,482 and when not to believe Michelle. 894 01:06:13,983 --> 01:06:15,694 We are appealing the verdict, 895 01:06:15,860 --> 01:06:18,446 and we'll appeal it for as long as it takes. 896 01:06:19,573 --> 01:06:23,326 To now treat this juvenile 897 01:06:23,493 --> 01:06:27,289 as, uh, somebody who committed a homicide, 898 01:06:27,456 --> 01:06:30,917 I think is unfair, unjust and illegal, 899 01:06:31,084 --> 01:06:34,338 and I think eventually the court system will see it. 900 01:06:50,980 --> 01:06:52,606 Here's Michelle coming in right now. 901 01:06:55,150 --> 01:06:57,361 Keep your head up. Love you, Michelle. 902 01:07:35,650 --> 01:07:37,360 Your Honor, the Commonwealth is asking this court 903 01:07:37,527 --> 01:07:39,863 to impose a sentence of not less than seven, 904 01:07:40,029 --> 01:07:42,907 no more than 12 years in state prison. 905 01:07:43,074 --> 01:07:45,201 Your Honor, as the evidence proved, 906 01:07:45,368 --> 01:07:48,538 the facts in this case are egregious. 907 01:07:48,705 --> 01:07:52,125 There is no earthly reason why Conrad Henri Roy 908 01:07:52,292 --> 01:07:56,088 should not be here today with his loving family, 909 01:07:56,254 --> 01:07:58,048 enjoying life, 910 01:07:58,215 --> 01:08:00,967 sharing his many gifts with the world. 911 01:08:01,134 --> 01:08:04,888 But he is not, and the reason he is not here 912 01:08:05,055 --> 01:08:07,850 is the defendant, Michelle Carter. 913 01:08:08,016 --> 01:08:11,061 Her actions killed Conrad Roy. 914 01:08:11,228 --> 01:08:14,398 She ended his life to better her own. 915 01:08:14,565 --> 01:08:16,316 For all of these reasons, Your Honor, 916 01:08:16,483 --> 01:08:18,944 the Commonwealth respectfully asks this court 917 01:08:19,111 --> 01:08:21,196 to impose our recommendation. Thank you. 918 01:08:21,363 --> 01:08:23,282 Thank you, Miss Flynn. 919 01:08:23,449 --> 01:08:25,284 Who speaks for the defendant? 920 01:08:26,368 --> 01:08:29,246 Mr. Cataldo, do you have any evidence to present? 921 01:08:30,664 --> 01:08:35,920 Your Honor, I will summarize by saying, as this court is well aware, 922 01:08:36,087 --> 01:08:39,674 we're guided with the idea in the juvenile justice system 923 01:08:39,840 --> 01:08:44,512 that the goal is not punitive, but yet rehabilitative. 924 01:08:44,679 --> 01:08:47,807 Miss Carter was 17 years old at the time. 925 01:08:47,974 --> 01:08:51,227 We have a body of law from both the United States Supreme Court 926 01:08:51,394 --> 01:08:52,770 as well as the SJC 927 01:08:52,937 --> 01:08:55,315 about the adolescent brain development, 928 01:08:55,481 --> 01:08:58,234 what a court can consider on sentencing. 929 01:08:58,401 --> 01:09:00,778 And there is a clear body that says 930 01:09:00,945 --> 01:09:04,866 adolescents are not as culpable as full-grown adults. 931 01:09:05,033 --> 01:09:08,370 Miss Carter will have to live with the consequences of this 932 01:09:08,536 --> 01:09:09,954 for the rest of her life, 933 01:09:10,121 --> 01:09:12,248 with the publicity that this case has gained. 934 01:09:12,415 --> 01:09:14,876 Um, that will be substantial. 935 01:09:15,043 --> 01:09:19,840 I think treatment is appropriate in this particular case for Miss Carter. 936 01:09:20,006 --> 01:09:23,718 Miss Carter does regret what happened. 937 01:09:23,885 --> 01:09:26,972 She also sent a letter to the probation department 938 01:09:27,139 --> 01:09:32,352 where she accepts responsibility for her actions, her words, 939 01:09:32,519 --> 01:09:34,771 her letter. The court has reviewed all this. 940 01:09:34,938 --> 01:09:39,193 Your Honor, I suggest that she is not a danger to the public 941 01:09:39,359 --> 01:09:43,822 and in the remedial system, the juvenile system, uh, 942 01:09:43,989 --> 01:09:47,201 probation is appropriate. Thank you very much, Your Honor. 943 01:09:47,368 --> 01:09:48,869 Thank you very much. 944 01:09:49,036 --> 01:09:50,537 All rise. 945 01:10:16,147 --> 01:10:18,232 This court is now in session. Be seated, please. 946 01:10:18,399 --> 01:10:20,818 No talking while court's in session. 947 01:10:20,985 --> 01:10:23,236 You need to understand, all of you, 948 01:10:24,821 --> 01:10:27,282 that this court has not nor should it 949 01:10:27,449 --> 01:10:30,494 allow any emotional response to this case to enter 950 01:10:30,661 --> 01:10:33,747 into its determinations in any way. 951 01:10:33,914 --> 01:10:39,628 Everyone is entitled to a decision devoid of any emotion 952 01:10:39,795 --> 01:10:41,839 with respect to this case. 953 01:10:43,883 --> 01:10:48,387 Now I know that there has been significant media coverage of this case. 954 01:10:48,554 --> 01:10:52,183 I assure you that I have steadfastly avoided 955 01:10:52,349 --> 01:10:54,685 any of that. 956 01:10:54,852 --> 01:10:56,979 But by the end of today people will wonder why 957 01:10:57,146 --> 01:10:58,773 what has happened has happened. 958 01:10:58,940 --> 01:11:01,734 People may wonder why all of this has happened. 959 01:11:01,901 --> 01:11:04,654 I have not found 960 01:11:04,821 --> 01:11:08,699 that Miss Carter's age or level of maturity 961 01:11:10,326 --> 01:11:12,453 or even her mental illness 962 01:11:14,664 --> 01:11:17,834 have any significant impact on her actions. 963 01:11:19,961 --> 01:11:22,755 She was a bright young lady, did well in school, 964 01:11:22,922 --> 01:11:28,011 and I am satisfied that she was mindful of the actions 965 01:11:28,178 --> 01:11:30,638 for which she now stands convicted. 966 01:11:32,223 --> 01:11:36,102 On the other hand, even if the age and the maturity level 967 01:11:36,269 --> 01:11:40,899 of the person at the time that they have committed the crime 968 01:11:43,485 --> 01:11:46,780 doesn't gre... doesn't garner a great deal of significance, 969 01:11:46,947 --> 01:11:50,867 the fact that they are still of that young age 970 01:11:51,034 --> 01:11:54,288 offers a greater promise of rehabilitation. 971 01:11:55,581 --> 01:11:57,291 Miss Carter, please stand. 972 01:12:03,505 --> 01:12:06,967 Miss Carter, a guilty finding having entered on the indictment 973 01:12:07,134 --> 01:12:11,013 charging you with the involuntary manslaughter 974 01:12:11,180 --> 01:12:13,432 of Conrad Roy III 975 01:12:13,599 --> 01:12:16,227 now sentences you to two and a half years 976 01:12:16,393 --> 01:12:18,854 in the Bristol County House of Correction. 977 01:12:20,231 --> 01:12:24,819 Fifteen months of said sentence shall be deemed a committed sentence 978 01:12:24,986 --> 01:12:27,655 and the balance thereof shall be suspended 979 01:12:27,822 --> 01:12:31,325 until August 1st of 2022. 980 01:12:32,910 --> 01:12:36,122 That is the sentence of the court. You may be seated. 981 01:12:37,331 --> 01:12:39,000 Mr. Cataldo, do you wish to be heard? 982 01:12:39,167 --> 01:12:40,835 I do, Your Honor. 983 01:12:41,002 --> 01:12:43,254 - May I approach? - You may. 984 01:12:52,680 --> 01:12:54,808 Your Honor, what I have just filed 985 01:12:54,974 --> 01:12:57,018 is a motion to stay the execution of the sentence. 986 01:12:57,185 --> 01:13:00,271 - Let me take a look at it, please. - Okay, thank you. 987 01:13:11,491 --> 01:13:14,202 I guess we have all come to know each other a little bit. 988 01:13:14,369 --> 01:13:17,039 I anticipated this motion, Mr. Cataldo, 989 01:13:17,205 --> 01:13:19,124 and I took some significant time 990 01:13:19,291 --> 01:13:21,627 to review the case of Commonwealth versus Hodge. 991 01:13:21,793 --> 01:13:24,588 which is found at 380 Mass 851. 992 01:13:24,755 --> 01:13:29,927 The conviction may be reversible, but the time spent in prison is not. 993 01:13:31,970 --> 01:13:37,142 I am satisfied that there is an issue worthy of presentation 994 01:13:37,309 --> 01:13:39,103 to the appellate court. 995 01:13:39,270 --> 01:13:40,688 In fact, this court 996 01:13:40,855 --> 01:13:43,858 believes that the wisdom of the appellate court 997 01:13:44,024 --> 01:13:47,945 will be of instruction now and going forward. 998 01:13:48,112 --> 01:13:50,823 I don't know what the appeals court will do. 999 01:13:50,990 --> 01:13:54,994 I don't know if it goes to the SJC, what the SJC will do. 1000 01:13:55,161 --> 01:13:58,331 But I am satisfied that a grant of a stay 1001 01:13:58,497 --> 01:14:02,001 through the Massachusetts court system only 1002 01:14:03,336 --> 01:14:04,712 is warranted. 1003 01:14:04,879 --> 01:14:08,716 This order will not encompass anything with respect 1004 01:14:08,883 --> 01:14:11,594 to the federal system. 1005 01:14:11,761 --> 01:14:14,347 Is there anything further, Mr. Cataldo or Mr. Madeira? 1006 01:14:14,514 --> 01:14:16,224 One minute please. 1007 01:14:23,732 --> 01:14:25,191 We're all set. Thank you. 1008 01:14:25,358 --> 01:14:28,445 And we are adjourned. Thank you very much. 1009 01:14:28,612 --> 01:14:30,238 All rise. 1010 01:14:47,129 --> 01:14:48,756 I don't understand how a month ago 1011 01:14:48,923 --> 01:14:50,716 it's a guilty verdict giving the family hope 1012 01:14:50,883 --> 01:14:52,468 that there might be some type of justice, 1013 01:14:52,635 --> 01:14:55,596 to just have her go home tonight and have a nice meal. 1014 01:14:55,763 --> 01:14:58,015 I just don't get it. Like I said, it's saying to me... 1015 01:14:58,182 --> 01:15:00,184 I don't have a law degree, I don't have... 1016 01:15:00,351 --> 01:15:01,853 But it saying as long I'm under 18, 1017 01:15:02,020 --> 01:15:03,730 I can bully anyone. 1018 01:15:04,856 --> 01:15:06,441 Are you pleased with the stay? 1019 01:15:06,608 --> 01:15:09,360 Very much so, yes. Yes. 1020 01:15:09,527 --> 01:15:12,697 You have to remember, people were totally split about this case. 1021 01:15:12,864 --> 01:15:15,575 So, the reason that it's so interesting to me, 1022 01:15:15,742 --> 01:15:18,411 like, the difference between the conviction and the sentencing, 1023 01:15:18,578 --> 01:15:21,957 is that it expresses the complete kind of craziness 1024 01:15:22,123 --> 01:15:24,709 that this case drives people to in terms of trying to come up 1025 01:15:24,876 --> 01:15:28,171 with one objective conclusion of what should happen to Michelle Carter. 1026 01:15:28,338 --> 01:15:30,423 If this appeal lingers to 2022, 1027 01:15:30,590 --> 01:15:32,259 conceivably she will never serve time in jail? 1028 01:15:32,426 --> 01:15:34,302 Conceivably, yes. 1029 01:15:35,595 --> 01:15:38,807 It's like you were responsible, it was involuntary manslaughter. 1030 01:15:38,974 --> 01:15:41,393 But you can basically never go to jail? 1031 01:15:57,242 --> 01:15:59,703 I would be surprised if she serves time. 1032 01:16:29,776 --> 01:16:33,529 I have reviewed the Commonwealth's motion 1033 01:16:33,696 --> 01:16:36,574 and have considered the arguments just presented to the court. 1034 01:16:36,741 --> 01:16:39,619 The court now allows the Commonwealth's motion 1035 01:16:39,786 --> 01:16:42,080 to revoke the stay of sentence. 1036 01:16:42,247 --> 01:16:45,375 Miss Carter will now be taken into custody. 1037 01:16:51,881 --> 01:16:54,426 This matter is adjourned. Thank you very much. 1038 01:16:54,593 --> 01:16:55,969 All rise.