Original subtitles

We are in San Diego, we are at our, um, at the little rental that we

have down here, which has been a really nice, like, port in the storm.

Yeah, so we've, we've started documenting, like, Liz's

life right now, you know, we have, like, people kind of

constantly around us, starting to capture these moments, because what we're going

through right now, well, I mean, at a simplest level, I feel like the reason why

Liz has been turned into this monster is because nobody knows who she is, right?

And, like, in absence of knowing somebody, it's really easy to make them feel other, and scary,

like, it's easy to build up this myth around who the person is when you don't know who they are.

So we've kind of made the decision that the best way for people to understand

who she is is by just giving, like, radical transparency and, you know,

as much access as possible into our daily lives.

Everything from, like, you know, putting the kids to sleep,

to, you know, what we're building, and everything in between.

So, um, but what I'm saying is, but

we don't even, you know, these, these are relevant to human

systems, like, you know, infections of frog embryos, yeah, yeah,

I just want to show that it works.

I did testify in my criminal trial, and I was

acquitted of the counts associated with the charges on

patients, and patient testing, and I don't have any money,

I'm deeply in debt for the legal fees associated with

my criminal case, but I do want the ability to defend

myself, and I would ask for your consideration in that.

Thank you.

Our work is in being able to make testing work.

Elizabeth Holmes built her company Theranos on this invention she called the iPod of

healthcare, a miniaturized blood analyzer that would disrupt the 60 billion dollar

lab testing industry.

It was, she claimed, quote, the most important thing humanity has ever built, and

Elizabeth Holmes became the youngest self-made female billionaire in the world.

She was also at the center of a massive multi-year fraud.

Each day I greet the sun and I train my body for battle, and I train my

mind too.

This is the dropout.

You said that Ms. Holmes was manipulative, what do you mean by that?

You had this older man around her that she manipulated.

She just wasn't mad, she had a charm.

I think she's really good at telling you what you need to hear to keep going.

She's pathological.

She told everyone to take to work, and it didn't work at all.

Theranos founder Elizabeth Holmes is set to begin her prison sentence on May 30th.

The federal court rejected her request to stay out of bail

while appealing her conviction on fraud and conspiracy charges.

Honey, while wanting to deny it along with his ex-girlfriend, Elizabeth Holmes.

They really brought this company as a couple,

and they perpetrated this fraud as a couple.

Prosecutors say he and Elizabeth Holmes were partners in virtually everything.

She claimed that they could use one drop of blood to test a bunch of

different things, but it turned out that that technology did not work.

She was convicted on four counts of fraud for defrauding investors.

She was found guilty of defrauding musicians.

Ms. Holmes has not spoken to the media since 2016.

Her trajectory launched a cottage industry of podcasts, TV shows, Halloween

costumes, and the actress Amanda Seyfried's Emmy Award-winning turn as Ms. Holmes

in the Hulu's The Dropout.

The black turtlenecks, the kabuki red lipstick,

the green juices, the dancing to Lil Wayne.

Somewhere along the way, Ms. Holmes says the person, whoever that is, got lost.

At one point, I tell her that I heard Jennifer

Lawrence had pulled out of portraying her in a movie.

She replied almost reflectively, You're not playing me.

You're playing a character I created.

That seems like another thing that you would never say in a million years.

You would never say character I created.

You probably said character that they created.

Yeah, I mean we have recordings of a lot of it.

Like 90% of the stuff that's quoted in here we recorded.

Did you do that with me?

No.

Well, not yet.

It's probably a good idea.

The way in which they use words.

I mean we need to go back on a few of these things

because it's just like factually inaccurate.

You're coming with us.

Your voice has been heard.

The council has spoken.

Yeah.

More orange?

Yeah.

More apple.

More apple.

Do you want more bagel?

I'm all right.

Thank you so much.

The world believes a reality about me that isn't true.

And so what is the reality?

And how did we get here where all these people

believe these things that didn't happen?

How did that happen?

But you didn't commit any crime, you think?

I know I didn't commit any crime.

Can I tell you a little bit of an insecurity of mine?

Yeah, please.

Okay.

I read that you asked General Mattis to be on the board of your company.

And, you know, he's a military guy, but he's not a science guy.

So part of me maybe is a little insecure that

you look at me as someone who is uneducated on

science and scientific things.

So I can't question you in a way that another person who is would.

So why me?

I think we've been thinking about this first and foremost as a human story.

Because you could have gone to like science

reporters and investigative, but you didn't.

Because what?

Do they suck?

Or do you think they suck or something?

I don't actually at all.

Okay, I don't know.

I mean, the purpose, at least to me, the

purpose of this was not to litigate the science.

Although I really hope people look at the testimony

in the case and all the documents that support that.

But it starts with who I am and what my intent was and still is.

I do want to say to you for just full transparency,

I have read a lot about Theranos and you.

And, you know, I do believe there is a lot of evidence

that points to the fact that you defrauded investors

and also deceived, you know, regulators and the public and patients.

And you were involved in conspiracy too.

I look, I mean, I understand what people have said about me.

And I understand that people believe those things.

All I know is my truth and my love for my

family.

It could be taken away from them.

That must be hard.

Do you want to get a tissue or something?

Hold on, I'll get it for you.

I think

we need to put a pin in that.

Okay.

Because it's 12 20 now.

You have a ton of calls that you need to do.

I don't want to speak for you.

So what do you think you guys want to film that?

Well, I was planning to go work out.

If you'd like to.

Oh, thanks.

Pick your piece wisely.

What is this again?

It's a pink pineapple.

In talking to Liz, it sounded like the vision she had with Theranos hasn't died.

Is this just kind of like a random thought or are there plans for this?

No, there's not just plans, but there's plans in the works.

You know, like we've taken a lot of the first steps to make this happen.

And as it relates to her, her intention with

this, she hasn't stopped talking about it since

the moment I met her.

Wow.

The idea is to put the band back together and do well again.

You know, we're committed to the cause.

So 2.0, you know, there's 1.0, which was the first version.

And here's the second iteration of the same idea.

Theranos 2.0. Yeah.

What is up first for you guys tomorrow?

Get a 9 20 appointment for IV.

And we typically don't like going on the weekends

because on the weekends, there's like a million people.

I mean, it's Friday morning.

What day were you thinking the bonfire?

I haven't thought that through.

I was going to call my brother and see what his availability is.

OK.

One conversation that we had yesterday with the

guy who brought us to the studio yesterday is that

he said that he would be very willing to speak

with you on camera, but obscuring his identity.

So why did you take the eggs over?

What was she doing wrong with mixing the eggs?

I just wanted to help her so she could focus on talking to you.

OK.

What I was doing wrong is he doesn't think that I'm mixing them.

She does it like this.

She does it very lightly.

Therefore, the eggs don't taste as good because you.

She really want to make sure that they're well stirred.

She's got it.

She's got it.

Thank you.

You're welcome.

How did you two meet?

We met at a friend's party on October 7th, 2017.

And yeah, we just.

Sorry, I got distracted.

By what?

I just thought.

What's the thought?

I was trying to think back to that moment and I was just.

I don't know.

There's so many things that went through my head in that moment.

Like when you met her?

Yeah.

Like what?

Well, first, I didn't know who she was.

But you did, you know who she was in general?

Like, did you know who Elizabeth Holmes was at that time?

I did.

Yeah, I mean, I was working in Silicon Valley and I had just toured her

building the week before because we were looking at renting her building.

So like, I knew exactly who she was.

I'd read a lot of the same media that everybody else had.

So how did you not recognize her?

She was like wearing a big hat and sunglasses

and she had like a bandaid on her head.

So I didn't know who she was.

Why a bandaid?

I had just gotten a husky and he'd scratched my face.

He was a puppy and I had this cut on my face.

So that may have also been part of the idea with the sunglasses.

Was it love at first sight?

I think for me it was.

Really?

I don't know.

Yeah, I was like very flirtatious.

I was trying to be flirtatious.

You were?

Yeah, definitely.

What do you like when you flirt?

I just, I didn't know what to say to him so I was just kind of staring at him.

So is that your technique?

You like hold eye contact?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And her and I started talking and very quickly

kind of like everything else ceased to exist.

Like it was just the two of us.

You know when you're in a conversation with somebody and there's

other people around but it really just becomes the two of you.

I mean at the time in 2017 there was a lot of bad news about Theranos.

It was only bad news.

And you just didn't know who she was?

No idea, yeah.

When did you realize?

It was maybe an hour into talking.

And what did you say that made you realize?

Something about giving people access to health care which

made me kind of realize I was testing and diagnostics.

Oh, that's who this is.

It was super fast.

It went from zero to 100 really quickly.

I mean the first time that he started talking about spending our life together I thought he was

kidding and I asked him about 30 times if he was serious because I was like are you, do you mean

that?

Do you feel like it would have gone in the same direction with

you guys if he knew from the very start it was you as opposed to?

I don't know, maybe not.

Maybe not.

I mean the bias is so strong.

I fell in love in that first conversation.

Before or after she revealed she was the founder of Theranos?

Probably before.

Okay, so you fell in love like in a few minutes.

Yeah, and maybe in an hour, you know, it was just there.

It was like clear.

You couldn't even see her face though.

Yeah, I guess that wasn't what mattered to me.

Like you're a very handsome man.

You're an attractive guy.

I'm sure you're popular with women, I'm guessing.

Yeah, I like women.

I know you like them, but like I'm sure.

Yeah, I was dating other people the same time I met Liz.

You were?

Yeah.

How many?

Nobody too seriously, maybe three people.

And then you meet Liz.

Yeah.

And she gets indicted for a crime.

Yeah.

And you are choosing at that point to be

like, okay, this is what I want for my life.

Why?

I think which speaks to how much I love her.

Yeah, that's cool.

Yes, amazing.

I mean, weren't you worried she was sort of like scamming you?

100%.

100%, but what did she have to gain from me?

Well, isn't your family rich?

Yeah, I think that there's like a lot of different levels of wealth, right?

Okay.

And I think I certainly come from a family that has done well, but the

level of wealth, you should, I'm not going to answer that question.

Were your parents, is that where the money is or?

I mean, they built a business.

You want to go?

Okay.

It's 530.

My cousin's thing started at 515.

Oh, okay.

Sorry, I didn't know.

Um, how

do you decide what to put in and what to leave out?

Right now I'm putting everything in and then I'll cut once

I sort of see it all together and how it fits together.

Did you write about Sunny at all?

I did.

It's a big part of my life.

How long were you guys together?

Almost 12 years.

Wow.

What was Sunny's role at Theranos?

He was the president and chief operating officer

of the company and the vice chairman of the board.

And what was your role?

I was the CEO and the chairman of the board.

I, I believed in him because I thought he was

the best in the world at what he was doing.

But I know that I didn't question him in the way that

I otherwise would have had that relationship not been in place.

Do you feel like you're an overly trusting person?

For sure.

But I think that's the best way to build

the relationships that are successful ones.

Because I think if you start from a place of complete trust, then if it is

going to be a good relationship, it will be that much stronger because of it.

That's a really nice philosophy.

That's how Billy and I met and built the relationship that we have.

I'm sorry.

So where did things get lost?

Like, how are you where you are right now?

I don't, I don't know.

What's your best guess?

I mean, if you're you feel like everything that you did

was above board and you operated in good faith and do you

feel like your legal team, you know, their advice has led you to this point?

No, I think they've put their hearts and souls into fighting it.

And they, they're still fighting.

So who messed up then in this process?

I, I wish I knew.

I don't know.

I don't, I don't feel like I understand that.

Do you think that's part of the reason why people can't come around

to you is because they feel like you're not admitting to the things

that you did?

Probably.

Yeah.

Yeah.

How does that make you feel?

It makes it hard to stand up for the truth, but I

would never be able to live with myself if I didn't.

What do you feel like is the hardest thing for you to do emotionally?

Like, when it comes to emotions, what's the hardest thing for you?

I mean, it took me a really long time to be okay with, um, with

letting someone see me cry.

But, I don't know if that's true.

At a high level, the New York Times is unwilling to change the, I created a character,

even though we told them, like, look, we've got all these tapes, it wasn't said anywhere.

And they feel strongly that she took sufficient notes to cover that, but they don't have, like,

they haven't come back saying, well, here's the place that you said it, or this, like, we have

any recording of this.

They just say that they stand by their reporting.

Let Liz describe it to you.

Do they have proof you said it?

I don't know.

I, I know that we, as she would speak with us, we would record the

conversations, too, because that's what art comes for something to do.

Yeah, yeah.

But we don't have any, any recording of me saying I created a character.

You should find out if there's a recording.

We don't.

Lizzie, come on, pick up.

Okay, sorry.

To be continued.

Okay, to be continued.

Because I do, okay.

I want to ask, just because the thing that, I know it's such a small thing, the New York

Times thing, but the reason I'm so interested is because if you didn't say this, it really

shows the narrative of people trying to make me into that, turn you into that.

But if you did say it, it speaks to the fact that maybe

you don't recall some things that you've said or done.

Yeah.

So the answer to this question feels very relevant.

For sure.

Yeah.

My process was my memory and then reviewing all our tapes and confirming.

Yeah.

Following up based on that.

Okay.

Yeah.

I know you have to go.

So anyways.

Yeah, to be continued.

Okay, great.

Thanks, Liz.

Okay.

When I was only hearing, it was like dropping.

It just makes us, our ability to do business like untenable.

I don't think it has anything to do with our equipment.

It 100% does.

Because like at night, I've got zero problems.

It's only, it's only when you guys are here.

Something's interfering.

Because like, even when I tried to do that

hearing the other day, it dropped like 10 times.

Really?

Yeah.

I feel like we're, we're on different frequencies, right?

It's not.

I think it's the monitors.

I'm unable to connect to this wifi.

I'm not able to connect to our wifi.

Would it be the monitors?

There we go.

Hi.

Can you guys hear me?

Yeah.

Sorry.

We were on mute.

Wifi issues.

So nice to meet you.

It's so nice to meet you.

Would you know, with the fact that you've involved

in a similar case, was that disclosed at trial?

They were able to get into it at like the highest level, but not really.

Now the entire government's case was predicated

on this idea that the technology didn't work.

Right.

But they had no evidence to that.

So they had three patients, all of which Liz

was acquitted of like each of those counts.

And then they had nothing else.

So they brought in this expert witness and had him

say whatever the fuck they wanted to him to say.

Right.

Like, I mean, it's just procedurally, totally incorrect.

I mean, you know, some of, some of the questions that I,

that I would have for you guys would, I guess would be.

I feel like you're supposed to make an important point.

Every single time that you guys are here, the Wi-Fi does not work.

And so you're thinking of working with her on your case?

You know, the truth is, like, I don't have the money to pay her to do that.

So the question would be, like, would there be a

role for her in, like, the telling of our story?

I don't know.

But she could help give context as to where there are strings to be pulled.

You know, it's this weird thing, because I've seen a lot of

places where I think there's just, like, fundamental wrongs.

And, you know, I hope that you guys can look into it, because I

think it will yield results that will really surprise everyone.

But it takes time and energy and effort and,

like, passion and somebody to care about it.

So maybe you have it, Nathan, the ability to think independently and actually, like,

look into facts.

Because the rest of the world seems totally fucking incapable of it.

Any thoughts?

Any thoughts?

I was just listening.

Okay.

I still have this weird feeling that there's

some things that I'm not seeing fully about you

guys.

I know you guys invited me to stay here with you, and I declined the offer.

But I've been thinking maybe if I do take

you up on your offer and to really be here.

You are welcome to be here.

Does any part of you worry about me being here 24-7?

I don't think so.

That's what you asked for, is to see everything.

So this is everything.

But what if I see something that makes you look

bad, that makes you look guilty, really guilty?

I'm not guilty.

But what if I see something that makes you look that way?

Then you'll ask questions about it.

You really feel you did nothing wrong?

I did not.

You never tried to deceive anyone?

I've never tried to deceive anyone.

Ever in your life?

No.

Tell me this.

Have you ever lied in your life?

I don't think so.

Liz, what?

You've never lied in your life?

You've never said something untrue?

Not intentionally.

A white lie?

I mean, I don't know.

When I was a kid, you know?

But I've always tried to say what I believe.

That's how I've built my life.

That's why this is so important to me.

What's your definition of a lie?

Intentionally saying something you believe to be untrue.

Cool.

Let's say you didn't want to go to a party.

Like a friend's or an acquaintance's party.

And you're just like, Oh, I'm not feeling great.

You've never done something like that?

Or if you don't like someone?

I'm sure.

I was thinking about lies as the kind of things I've been accused of.

Well, you've done lies like that.

Telling a friend I feel sick when I don't?

Mama's jacket.

That's Mommy's jacket.

Thank you.

Is that Mommy's jacket or Daddy's jacket?

Mama's jacket.

I'm going to take him down to the beach.

This adhesion is essential for cell survival.

If cells become detached from their microenvironment,

they will die through a process known as apoptosis.

This phenomenon is called adhesion dependency of survival.

Hey, is that thing on the bed all there is?

Or is there a mattress too?

For the guest bed?

For the guest bed, yeah.

Yeah, we've got everything in the storage containers.

Oh, okay.

Yeah, we've got...

This wasn't sure if it was only the...

Yeah, we're going to be sleeping on just bed frames here.

Doesn't that mess with your head, though, when money is involved?

Like, that much money?

No, that's not what motivates me.

But what about when the company starts to be worth so much money?

I've never once sold a share.

It was never what this was about.

Can I play you a piece of audio that you said?

It's a clip from this interview you did with this journalist for Fortune.

Parla, I think that was his name.

Is it more in the nature of a trade secret that

you don't want them to know you're at the...

That's right.

It's more in the context of a trade secret.

But it, the fact, is a big deal.

And so, I mean, if we think about this in terms of...

So you say there, the fact that we have a single

device that can perform any test is a big deal.

But from what I know, you couldn't do every test on a single device.

That's the whole problem.

That's why you're going to prison, right?

No.

That was our invention.

And in the case I talked about, the fact that we

had invented a device that could do any test...

But if you had a single device that could run

any test, then wasn't that the whole thing?

I don't know what you mean by the whole thing, but what you said is not the case.

And hopefully I can explain that.

What I said is not the case?

What do you mean?

That those statements were untrue.

That's a true statement.

Yes.

That you have a single device that can perform any test.

We did.

That's what we invented.

So this is the famous scam device.

It is not a scam device.

But that's what people think.

Right?

I don't know what people think.

What I know is what we invented.

And to me, the technology is amazing.

So this works, you're saying?

It did.

Right now, these are just components of a system.

It opens itself.

Did you invent it?

Did you invent this?

How it opens like that?

Our team did.

I don't remember who the inventor was on that.

That wasn't your idea?

I don't remember.

Our technologies worked by allowing the cartridge,

when it was inserted into a device, to call the cloud

and send protocols from the cloud down to the device telling

you what to do with the cartridge that had just been put in.

And we developed that for all these different

methods of chemistry that we were running.

So in that way, you can run any test because

it's based on the cloud sending information to

a device and you can preload any different type of chemistry into the cartridge.

Does that make sense?

So the device is different than the chemistry.

Exactly.

The device is capable of running any test.

Yes.

But currently, the device cannot run every test.

You have to develop the small sample chemistries for each test.

And for certain tests, I guess, that you hadn't

done successfully on it, it's theoretical.

Yeah, because this is a platform that can run those tests.

What you're referring to is a future-based the device can, is capable of running.

It's the word, I guess, can.

What I'm talking about here is what we invented.

What you invented.

So when you said the device can run any test, what you meant was the device

is capable of running any test.

What I'm talking about here is that the

device is capable of running any test, yes.

Assuming additional chemistry is developed.

Assuming you have the chemistries to do those things.

But, do you understand that if someone heard the

device can run any test, how they could interpret that

as currently this device is running any test.

I think we provided information about the tests

that we had developed and were developing.

Because people were saying, oh, it can only run 12 tests on this thing.

I think the problem is the thing that you're asking Nathan

is what the general public understood in saying this thing.

You're communicating this thing and everyone

got a different picture than what you meant.

I was just trying to communicate the best I knew how.

And you were trying your best to be clear.

Because when you say this and describe this, I'm like well, wait a sec.

I guess, yeah, the device can like that's right what you're saying.

But, I'm also like well, why choose those words?

Like, why not just like add one word that would make it clear.

But, I'm a bad communicator.

I don't know a lot of words.

Is that what you're like?

I feel like I know I was trying to fully

communicate what we've created.

And I feel like now I'm living in a parallel universe.

I don't, yeah, I don't.

I know what you're feeling.

No, you don't.

I gotta quickly take this legal call.

Do you mind cutting the mic for a second?

Sure, yeah.

I've been suspicious that she's ever lied to you.

No, never.

I know it seems weird.

And is like, you can shower whenever you want?

If I tell somebody I'm busy, is that a lie?

If you're not, yes.

Okay, so I'll say that.

It's right here.

Right.

So you and I get fucked?

Yes, absolutely.

Not that I've known her to.

You have to wake up at 3.30?

And I know it seems totally improbable.

I understand that.

It's weird.

But she's really weird.

She's just not normal.

But the fact that she's all too famous for lying.

The thing she's never done.

You believe it.

You actually believe since high school she's never told a single lie?

What is an invasive script search?

She's never really thought about it.

What's your theory?

It's random.

No, it's not random.

It's purposeful.

But where did it start?

Because it didn't start with the investors.

It started with a journalist.

So I think you should look into that.

But why he just picked a random person and no,

he was put onto the story by a competition.

Can you see visitors that first weekend?

Is there evidence that that happened?

I think that there's a lot to learn.

Why are you being so weird and cryptic with your words?

Say what's there.

Okay.

Thank you.

Is he okay?

Yeah.

Do you know who Abbott and Costello are?

No.

Not really.

No.

Have you heard of the comedy routine Who's on First?

You haven't.

Can I play this for you?

Okay.

Something we were talking about the other day made me think about this.

Oh, sure.

Baseball players nowadays have a lot of funny names.

You know, like Sticky Fields, Goofy Dan, Boobie Barber, Boobie Barber.

But let's see.

We have on our team, Who's on First?

What's on Second?

I don't know who's on Third.

That's what I want to find out, the guy's name.

Who's on First?

What's on Second?

I don't know who's on Third.

You know the guy's name?

Sure.

Who's on First?

What's on Second?

I don't know who's on Third.

You ain't seen nothing to me yet.

Go ahead and tell me.

Who's on First?

What's on Second?

I don't know who's on Third.

You know the guy's name?

Who's on First?

I mean the guy's name.

Who?

Who's on First?

Why are you asking me for?

I don't know.

I'm asking you who's on First.

That's his name.

That's it.

That's his name.

I ain't asking nothing.

You know the guy's name on First?

Who?

The guy's name on First.

Who is on First?

Why are you asking me for?

I'm asking you a simple question.

Who's on First?

That's it.

So that's maybe the most famous comedy routine of all time.

Do you understand why that's funny?

I don't know.

We couldn't understand each other.

Did you find it funny?

I did.

What did you find funny about it?

That they were just talking over and past

each other in a way that I thought was funny.

What was funny about it?

What did they not understand?

Who the player was that was on First.

And what was his name?

I don't know.

The guy who's on First.

What was his name?

I...

I...

I didn't pick it up.

The guy's name is Who.

I didn't get it.

You didn't get that?

No.

And so they didn't understand each other because

Who sounds like someone is saying Who's on First.

It's like a question.

But the guy's name is Who.

You get it now?

Yeah.

When you were telling me your explanation of what you meant by the statement

the fact that we have a single device that can run any test is a big

deal.

It felt like to me well that statement is so

clearly confusing to almost like a comedic level.

But you didn't see it that way when we were talking.

You still don't.

And so I was thinking about it and I was like this feels like Who's on First.

Is that how it feels to you?

This?

What do you mean?

Billy, do you understand what I'm saying?

I know exactly what you're saying.

I'm really glad you showed us this because it in some ways perfectly

illustrates something that I've tried to communicate and probably not

done well enough which is she just thinks differently.

And it's what allows her to see the world differently and to do things differently.

But yeah.

I think it's one of the most beautiful things about who you are.

Something like that might not resonate with her or make sense.

I don't know.

I felt then and I still felt that I was describing I mean I

thought that I was communicating effectively.

Am I off on this?

Or is this like I don't know.

I don't know.

I think he's right.

I think what he's saying is that you see the world differently and that you are

communicating very clearly in your mind that your mind works differently than others.

And when other people heard the thing that you were saying that they heard it in a way in

which they interpreted it to mean something different than what you were saying in your mind.

And I think it's a really apt analogy.

And it's not a bad thing.

You didn't think I was communicating clearly?

Most people view this and they understand sort of

the joke of who is a confusing name for a baseball

player.

But you watch this and you didn't see where the confusion was happening.

I don't know if it gives you more clarity or confusion Ethan.

I'm not surprised by that.

Does that make sense?

I'm not surprised by that at all.

I'm honestly just wondering if your mind it doesn't

grasp how a certain statement can be read as confusing.

Curious George visits the zoo.

Where's George?

Right here.

The monkey is George.

Hi.

I'm Nathan.

Hi Nathan.

Nice to meet you.

Very nice to meet you.

I'm Noel.

Noel.

Pleasure to meet you.

I thought the Hulu series was untruthful.

But people believe these things.

They take these things as gospel.

I read that you worked at Enron?

I did.

How was that?

You know you spend your life building up your

name and then suddenly you're associated with

something that just kind of goes under and has a horrible reputation.

I don't think that's painful for anyone.

Sort of happened to Liz too, huh?

Yeah.

Except the difference is that Elizabeth was by no means guilty of anything.

Where do you think things went wrong for her?

I can tell you exactly.

That's an easy question to answer.

So things went wrong for Elizabeth when she got raped.

And I think that she was so stunned by having been raped

that that led to the second thing that really changed her.

And that was when Cybal I came into her life.

Elizabeth was like 19 and he was close to 40.

Did you know he was 40?

No, I knew he was older.

You could tell by how he looked?

Yeah.

Liz said she couldn't tell.

He's 30 years older going into a freshman college program.

I think that's a pretty clear example of him trying to seek out young kids.

So Elizabeth Do you

find it like the fact that you saw Sonny and you knew he was

really old do you find it Hey guys, as much as I love you guys

doing an interview right now I think Elizabeth

really wants to spend time together as a family.

Maybe let's go a few more minutes.

Yeah, however long you want.

The purpose of you guys being here is for us to be able to spend time together.

Do you want us to leave Billy?

No, I don't want you to leave.

I think you guys should document us spending your time together.

I'm just trying to learn.

Sometimes I can't tell Billy wants us here or not.

Do you I guess like Sonny was this very important

relationship in her life or at least a big one.

How do you feel about the fact that she's getting into

business with Billy after what happened with Sonny?

Do you feel like it's smart to get into business

with someone you're romantically involved with?

Good question.

I trust Billy.

Elizabeth is a lot wiser.

Elizabeth is a lot wiser.

She knows.

I guess Billy wants her to come outside.

I'll do it with you.

You'll watch the dropout with me?

I'd prefer to watch as little of it as required

because I think it's going to disturb me a lot.

I'll watch it.

Only if you want to.

Only if you can do it.

I would love to watch it with you because I also haven't seen it.

Can you say the company name?

Theranos.

No, Theranos.

It's a mix between therapy and diagnosis.

Why not Theranos?

Because the name is Theranos.

Actually, can we cut that part?

So, currently we have 500 employees.

You have a good eye.

Shit.

You know what?

It's fine.

Okay, I'll, I'll check the TV.

When are you going to move in?

It depends.

On what?

On how it goes today with my parents.

Yes, I've been prepared and streamed.

And your new sword?

Katana.

Look at it.

It's fucking ancient.

Ask Larry Ellison about retirement.

He loves Japan.

How are you on the numbers?

Uh, most blood tests are priced too high.

We offer a low-cost alternative with the possibility to scale up.

Don't talk about saving the world.

I'm not going to talk about saving the world.

Don't use your giddy voice.

Don't save us.

If you don't want to be too beautiful, they won't take you

seriously.

I really don't want to watch this.

Okay, can

we have a moment together, guys?

Yeah, yeah.

Thank you.

Sure.

I know this journey is a shitty one, and I know it's like infinitely hard.

But I promise you, we'll get through it.

I love you.

So true and so good.

I need to give to do this.

I think she gets fussy when I hold her because she wants to feed again.

Isn't it weird that I, like, did a TV show about business scams,

and you're sort of, like, in trouble for, like, a business scam?

I never actually read that fiction.

I think it's a pretty different situation.

It could be.

If you just said that, you know, Theranos was a

comedy bit, maybe you could get off scot-free.

It was real.

Yeah.

It was just a joke.

Okay.

As you know, I'm literal.

No, no, I know.

I was just kind of making a little joke.

Maybe it was bad taste.

Yes.

It's always felt free to me being in the water.

It's like so.

Vast and beautiful.

Close your head.

Resets you.

Come jump in with me.

You're asking me to go.

Yeah.

Yeah, I'm normally afraid of cold water.

Okay.

I could break the rule, but, yeah.

No pressure.

What are you guys going to be needing to work on now?

We'll start following up with people and giving people calls.

Okay.

About starting to work on, maybe do some prototyping.

I wanted to ask you, are you starting to

think about an idea for a new type of sensor?

Thank you so much for taking the time.

There's a real opportunity.

To leverage what's next generation tech in self-driving and tunable

lasers and all these other dimensions into the field of medicine.

We have a laser.

The idea is to be able to directly measure, like, analyze in a sample.

If there's enough off-the-shelf components, like in existing

research institute labs, that we could go there and run some samples.

Yeah, absolutely.

And the idea is, like, we get our hands on one, determine how good the data is, and then our process

would be, how do we miniaturize and cost-cut, which Liz's experience in building Theranos, I think, is

so relevant.

Whatever the limitations in the optics are going to be, I think can be potentially

compensated for in part through the data set and through the algorithms.

I think you would be able to come up with some of the

best algorithms that we could make to do that, right?

Yeah, just, like, look at it and see, like, how, you

know, an expert virologist, like, what can they tell you?

If you can hit a dollar a test in low-income, like, low-resource

settings where there's no testing infrastructure, you can change things.

I think the bigger question is, can you get the test that cheap because of the

compute required to run it, you know, how many cycles you're going to need?

Totally, totally agree with that.

Yeah, so I think that's probably the best way.

This is going to be a classic moment for the failed bats.

From wherever I am, I'm going to continue to work on inventing.

Like, even if it's inventing from a cage, I have to do it.

The powers that be might not be too happy to see this come about.

Wow.

He's really inspired that we're still trying to see this through.

He thinks it's amazing, and he wants to help raise money.

I feel so energized after that.

Yeah?

Yeah.

Why?

Because it's, like, what I feel like I was born to do.

What I'm thinking is, as I work on my ideas, I'll just lay them out

in letters and write to you with ideas and drawings and diagrams.

We can do, like, a once-a-week patent session with

10 of the team, like, with the patent lawyers.

So we can take those ideas, and then we can file them.

Yes.

I mean, at a high level, like, the tangible goal is how

do we go from idea to working prototype in under 365 days.

I totally agree with that.

I mean, I think doing bottom-up on the milestones that we've

built and then also having goals with this on the research side.

Yeah, volume and quantity.

I think that, like, it's alluring to be, like,

oh, you know, it's going to be this and that.

And I think near-term goals is hiring a team, or, like, getting the band together.

So we've got a world-class optics guy and some guy on the artificial

intelligence learning side who's going to be on signal processing.

They would be added to the patent as well, and then eventually we'd file them.

I think the opportunity is super simple.

It illustrates to people who are watching that although you might not physically be

there with me, how I'm feeling, how I'm thinking, that you are constantly present.

And I think visually representing that in some way is really important for

the kids, like illustrating reading them a book or something or singing

to them.

So this one over here is just face.

Yep.

So kind of chest up.

Right.

And it's going to do two things.

So it's going to capture a three-dimensional image of her face, and then

it's also going to overlay the photos on top of that to capture the color.

Right.

So we're going to do a neutral of you, just like you are now.

And then after we do that one neutral, we're going to come back.

We're going to put your hair back and put a bald cap on you.

And then I'm going to put just several markers on your face that's

just this washable kind of thing that I use for doing facial markers.

And that's for stitching all these expressions together inside of a software.

So I have 220 cameras in this room for the whole body.

I have 70 in here that generates a high-resolution piece of geometry.

And they use these expressions to stitch together

you later through a hologram or a game or a video.

Do you guys have any questions or anything?

So I have a weird history with being on the camera

because I wasn't on the camera for a long time.

And then I had all these people telling me to

go get my picture taken and do all these pieces.

And it ended up hurting us so much.

And I just feel like the last thing Liz ever would have done was do this, right?

But now that is the thing that she's very known for

because some photographers have posed like this.

You're talking about the famous photo, right?

Yeah.

I mean, if you know this media narrative about me, it's that I

wanted to be in the media or I wanted to be in all these stories.

And I had all these people telling me to go do those stories to help our company.

And now I'm just wanting to make sure that we use it in the right way.

And that's the right thing to do.

One, two, three.

And then go ahead, up ahead.

Yep, that's good.

We're going to do two of these.

One, two.

And then our other pose was this.

Yep.

One, two, and three.

And now come up above our head.

And she could also hold her phone.

Yeah, that's a good idea.

Okay.

Yeah.

Are you texting?

I don't think texting.

I was just not going to watch

for it either.

Whoa, there it is.

There it was, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know, there's so much going on, but in this moment, I'm perfectly happy.

My favorite sweater.

You can wear this.

I love it.

Great with the big jeans.

Perfect.

I'm not that person.

I can promise you that.

Why would I deceive you?

There's no reason for me to do that.

It's weird.

The thing that's throwing me the most is how inviting you are, and you're

giving me so much access, and you're letting me listen to you all day long.

And you're doing this thing again.

You're continuing with their notes.

And as you're building it again, it's like everything

here points to, like, someone with nothing to hide.

It's because I don't have anything to hide.

I'm building the idea again.

It's not there else, but it's the invention, the technology, the ideas.

Yeah.

Right now, the only thing I really have to go off of is you,

because ultimately, it's about what you meant by what you

said.

You're the only person that can answer that.

I know.

I know.

I mean, hopefully I'm showing that with my actions.

I'm not just telling you there's a truth.

I'm living by that belief.

But you're smart.

You're smart, right?

I don't know about that.

You're very smart.

Come on, right?

I mean, that's what we're fighting.

That's why I'm not fighting.

Otherwise, I would settle and have more time with my babies,

which is what I want more than anything in the world.

Okay.

Okay, good job.

You're being real right now?

I'm always being real.

I like

this.

This is a really nice place.

I know this is your final couple hours together.

I don't know if you're all here, but if you want to

have a moment, I'm happy to step out and you guys can

have some time.

But if not, that's okay.

But we do need to take a shower because we didn't shower this morning.

Just to give you the option because you're going to be gone for a very long time.

You won't be able to have sex, so I'm happy to just leave.

I can go in my car if you want some time, just the two of you.

I'm happy to pull the cameras out and go away.

I love you.

Does it make you laugh?

That's good.

You can use a few laughs today.

All right.

I'll just, uh...

?? And

there was this huge fight over Elizabeth Patton during COVID.

You know, when she was already not even associated with the

company, where people were arguing over getting her hands on it.

But none of that has picked up on because it's all very frothy right now.

You know, people are making a fortune, you know, off of Elizabeth's

story, the negative side of her story, not the positive side.

But you watch.

I mean, I'll be dead when this all happens,

but you watch a few decades from now.

The whole story is going to be coming out about my daughter, our daughter.

Oh, hey.

How was it?

Good?

Yeah.

Good.

Okay, so we're going to print this, and then we're going to head out.

We're going to grab food along the way

because we need to get you something to eat.

Maybe a smoothie.

And then...

I'm going to put these shoes on.

Okay.

Liz, I got you, like, a little card and a thing.

Thank you.

No problem.

This is kind of like a bit of a gag gift, but I

didn't know your parents would be here or whatever.

Well, I don't know.

Don't get offended.

It's just kind of like a joke.

It was like, you know, like, hair dye and glasses in case

she wants to, like, flee to another country last minute.

Just a joke.

Sometimes I joke with her, too.

But anyways, maybe not appropriate for the moment.

All right, should we do this?

Okay, I'll just send you the contact list.

So we got that.

I have milk for Ivy in the fridge.

Okay.

Bring it to her.

Okay.

I'm going to bring it to her.

No, I'm going to keep my backpack in the back seat, please.

Okay.

Oh, goodness.

Stay tough.

Thank you.

Like, we don't know exactly where there's going to be roadblocks, but where there are roadblocks,

Liz will come up with solutions to those roadblocks, and she'll come up with new ideas.

So in a year, I think I'd like to have a working prototype, a team of

people assembled, and then I'd like to start developing the first test.

Yeah?

I tried getting a hold of that New York

Times reporter to see if she had that quote.

Yeah, well, we recorded every interaction with this reporter, every single one.

Could you send them to me?

No, I haven't checked the whole thing for everything.

All right.

Okay.

Well, so a working prototype within a year, you say?

Yeah, that's the goal.

Okay.

That's the goal.

I guess give me a call when it's done.

We use

lasers.

There have been developments over the course of the last handful of years that the approach

that we are taking and the way in which we are solving the problem is uniquely possible today.

Artificial intelligence allows you to do that.

And I think a lot of people don't yet know that that's possible, and the reason why

we know this is because Joe, really, not me, has been at the forefront of the most

innovative technology in the world for these subcomponents and how they're used.

We have a technology where we can look at a specific molecule and

start with extremely high resolution, tell you what's different about

its fingerprint today than it was last week.

I mean, that changes everything in the medical universe.

The purple boxes here are lasers.

So those lasers can be 10,000 different wavelengths of light each.

You send light through a sample, blood or urine or saliva,

that light changes wavelength depending on what's inside of it.

And once we catch that light, we then put it

into our computer to interpret the results.

Is this the new device?

These components are part of the device.

All of these will be shrunk down into something about half the

size of a Kleenex box, so you can test for disease with it.

But accuracy is around 96%, 97%.

Is it, like, harder to make decisions together now?

You and Liz?

I think there's just so much trust that most things I don't really consult her on.

Like, I know what she'd want.

I mean, I don't know anybody else that has a relationship as close as we have.

I sink to the bottom, beneath the crust.

How long does it take to take audio clips and then, like, hold on to them?

It's so crazy because when this was taken, she had given birth, like, a month before.

She looks so different now.

Like, she looks so much healthier.

Now?

Yeah.

She doesn't look healthy here?

No, it's not that she doesn't look healthy.

I don't mean healthy.

That's the wrong way to describe it.

She looks so much more fit.

Like, she's got abs.

Healthy is the wrong way to describe it.

That's what this is all about.

It's being able to look at a person's, you know, body chemistry at a molecular level.

How do you feel about, like, carrying on or

being a part of carrying on the Theranos mission?

If you're going to solve the problem.

It happens with multiple failures.

Theranos is one failure on a path, and there will be more.

What do you feel like they did wrong?

Well, they used the wrong technology.

And it was a step along the way, and there are people doing it right now.

I appreciate the line of questioning, but

I think that the truth is Joe wasn't there.

I can figure out the question to ask.

Is that okay?

I look at the Theranos endeavor as a wealth of information.

Some things what to do, and some things what not to do.

And as far as how it imploded, the claims that they made.

I mean, let me just put it this way.

Entrepreneurs, even the best of them, Elon Musk, make

claims that are not true at any given point in time.

We're going to have a self-driving car, and people pay money for it.

So the point of...

Wait, what's going on?

You guys can turn off the cameras.

Thank you.

What's the issue?

If you'd like to talk about it, turn off the cameras.

I want to know the issue.

I'm asking you to turn off the cameras.

Bill, you can't just walk in the middle of an

interview and turn off the cameras whenever you want.

You're not the director of this.

I'm not the director.

I'm not trying to be the director.

Right.

So I'm asking you to turn off the cameras.

I'm not going to engage with you.

Can you tell me?

I have no idea what you're talking about.

I can tell you when the cameras are off, but I'm not talking to you.

Okay, sorry.

Sorry, Joe.

I'm going to ask you now ten times.

Okay, turn off the cameras.

I submitted

an application to visit Liz in prison to get the cameras in there.

Oh, that's never going to happen.

Why?

Because I know more about what they are allowed to do.

You think there's no chance it's going to happen?

Chances below negative, it's not going to happen.

And I love how we are repeating our story about the woman who picked

blueberries and changed the world with her gesture of kindness that went on from

one person to the next.

I really meant it when we were talking about discovering all the most

profound insights from our study and discovering the nature of Dr. Yes.

So many incredible inventions are to be had.

Tomorrow we will work on our design again together.

I am literally living for it.

I think Liz would tell you if she was here.

Let me speak for her for a moment.

It's the thing that she thinks she will be remembered for.

It's for our relationship.

What she says is that every action she takes for as long

as she lives will be building monuments of love to me.

Wow.

For you?

Yeah, that's what she would say.

Liz told me you can get pretty heated

sometimes when she didn't elaborate really.

Yeah.

So what did she mean?

I mean, you saw today I got really frustrated.

I'm really protective.

Can I ask what are your arguments like with her when you guys fight?

I mean, we've never really had like a significant argument.

And I know that sounds crazy, but we really don't argue.

Like the way in which we fight.

You don't argue ever?

No.

Are you able to sense when she's frustrated with you?

I don't think she really gets frustrated with me.

I know it sounds crazy.

Have you ever asked her?

I mean, she tells me just about like we tell each

other just about everything that we're thinking.

So you're saying you can sense that she would

tell you if she was frustrated with you?

Yeah.

Even without you asking?

Do you feel like she has a track record of standing up for herself in relationships?

What are these billboards that are all over LA?

Are these yours?

I have nothing to do with it.

I have literally nothing to do with it.

What are they?

Do you know?

I don't know because I haven't asked, but my vet is in LA.

He's probably spent $350,000 on billboards.

Probably another $250,000 to $300,000 in Florida.

Who's he?

He had two billboards in Times Square.

So you know this guy?

He's the guy who just hates seeing people who are wrongfully accused of things.

He also happens to run one of the largest diagnostics labs in the country.

And he feels like she's innocent.

How do you feel about this?

Him using her face like that to promote his stuff.

Look, I really admire his conviction and effort to try and help this.

But he's using that famous photo of her, right?

Oh man, you know what?

He's a very nice guy.

The one that makes her really upset.

You know, his intentions are like, here, he really wants to help Liz.

In 2007, when I went to pharmaceuticals and introduced my machine,

and they started testing it on patients, no one could understand what

I was trying to show.

You took $500,000.

Sir, how do I go now?

Listen, you took $500,000.

And for what?

If I push the button, it's unquestionable.

Hey bud, I got to run.

But we're going to get her out soon.

I feel like the tide is turning.

Yeah, I'll give you a run.

Is that the billboard guy you were talking to?

Yes.

That is Ryan.

Does he have plans for more of those billboards?

Yeah, he cares a lot about Liz, so he checks in.

He flew out here last weekend.

Is she okay with him using her image like that?

How many people have used her image?

Without her consent.

That's the nature of being a public figure.

But it really upset her.

The last time she talked about that photo, she was crying.

Which photo?

The famous photo.

No, she doesn't care about that photo.

But she said people used it not how she wanted it, and it hurt her.

I haven't heard her say that.

You don't remember that?

We were all there.

I don't know what you're talking about.

But what I can tell you is his intention is really pure.

He cares a lot about Liz.

His whole family does.

I mean, I watched one of his videos.

The guy, he sort of seems like a coop.

Do you think that association is good for her?

Probably not.

Okay, so then why do you do it?

Yeah, his delivery is different than mine would be or Liz's.

He hired a blonde woman to pretend to be Liz at a strip club and then

came in and grabbed her neck and then pretended to blow himself up.

At 11.

At what?

I think it was 11.

The strip club?

Well, it's a club.

No, it's not a strip club.

It's like a music club in Miami.

Oh, okay.

It's like a club that they also have people dance to.

Federal judges have incredible discretion,

so they can actually do whatever they want.

They're like, look, the guideline says I

should do this, but I'm giving you probation.

I'm giving you 18 months.

Once I looked it up, I heard that there's a show about it.

A Hulu show.

I started to try to watch that.

I mean, I didn't get a part of it.

I just know Theranos.

What was it?

Therapy and Diagnosis or something?

Yeah, that sounds about right.

That's how she got the name.

She goes to Stanford, drops out second year

to create this device, right, that could...

No, their focus was about all the chemistry.

It was about the test itself.

Everybody focuses on the box, but the box...

Because that's what...

Every time she goes to different investors,

they say, where's the working prototype, right?

They couldn't get it to her.

That was the whole craziness.

Yeah, man, it's tough.

I can't even imagine where you're going to, to be honest.

Yeah, so we've started documenting Liz's life right now.

People are constantly around us, starting to capture these

moments, because what we're going through right now...

Well, I mean, at a simplest level, I feel like the reason why Liz

has been termed a miss monster is because nobody knows who she is.

You didn't commit any crime, do you think?

I know that you didn't commit any crime.

Becky said that you'd be very willing to speak with you on the air.

Why did you take the iPhone?

What was she doing wrong?

I just wanted to help her, so she could focus on talking to you.

Can you say the monkey name?

Theranos.

Oh, I'm sorry.

No, Theranos.

It's a mix between therapy and diagnosis.

Why not?

Theranos?

Because the name is Theranos.

Actually, can we cut that part?

Don't want to be too beautiful.

Oh, that's embarrassing.

GTFM.

Get the fucking money.

Get the fucking money.

Do you get the fucking money?

What was Sonny's role at Theranos?

He was the president and chief operating officer

of the company and the vice chairman of the board.

And what was your role?

I was the CEO and the chairman of the board.

I believed in him, but I know that I didn't

question him in the way that I otherwise

would have had that relationship not been in place.

What?

What?

How do you feel?

How do you feel?

It's heartbreaking.

It's heartbreaking.

The whole thing is very, very wild.

When you played her, how did you base your performance of her?

What was that based on?

I had 10-12 hours of deposition tapes, which is just her sitting there.

And then I watched every interview she's ever done.

But I know that it was told to me from the

beginning, we are not allowed to talk to her.

She's not allowed to talk to us.

How did that feel to you?

Good.

Good.

Because I was like, oh, good.

We have parameters here.

We were working in fiction land.

You saw the show as fiction.

With ridiculous amounts of research and most of the things, we were allowed to, every

time we veered off path a little bit, it was because it was allowed, because it's

TV.

And so watching that was weird.

I don't know.

She really could just be crazy.

She said she didn't want to be famous, she didn't want to be in pictures.

But that's not the kind of person that could create

what she created.

What kind of person?

I think it takes somebody, I think it takes something else.

Yeah.

And I'm sorry, but she did, the things that were

frustrating, there's a lot of things that were frustrating.

And one of them being that Sunny is the bad guy and she

was just a victim of Sunny, and now she's going to prison.

It's like, that's not, I mean, is that possible?

That Sunny just is the reason Sunny was the guy lying to people?

I mean, the challenge I'm having with all of this is she was taken

away and went in, and now it's Billy just saying, I know what's

going on with her.

And he even said to me, like, I don't even

have to talk to her to know what she wants.

I wish there was a way you could find out some shit on Billy and bring it to her.

Find what?

Break them up.

You want them to break up?

No, find some shit on Billy.

Yeah, of course I do.

No woman wants to see another woman be controlled by that kind of guy.

Not that I would do this, but I fantasized

for a minute, like, playing her post-trial.

When did you fantasize?

Just when I was watching her.

Oh, when you were watching her.

Forget what scene it was.

When you were sitting there on the couch with her.

You could talk.

She's like what?

She's just me.

Wow.

Yeah.

I feel like a little, I feel like a little haunted.

Um, because I have to just sit with the discomfort of A, not knowing, and B, not

knowing how I feel about it, and C, being able to do nothing about it, and D,

just...

feeling shitty about myself and my own feelings about it.

Lots of things.

She's not just an idea in my head, this shit actually happened.

Oh my god.

Oh my god.

They were, like, renting it when we showed up.

It's really dusty.

Were these vitamins here?

I don't remember that.

Okay.

This coffee machine, for sure, this

toaster, this, obviously, fridge, microwave.

Is this here?

Um...

I think she used that.

Or...

They had that here.

She didn't really drink coffee.

Do you miss her?

Miss?

I mean...

It must be weird.

I don't know, miss is a weird word.

Can I tell you something, or a story about how this,

like, something that happened here, that I still sort

of think about?

Yeah?

It was before we had cameras here, it sort of...

It sort of relates to how this whole project came about.

Like when you guys met?

Yeah.

Basically, I went down to meet her and Billy for the first time in San Diego

after I heard a rumor through the grapevine that maybe she was interested in

having her life documented.

Sure you don't want any of it?

I'm alright, thanks.

I took notes after on everything that happened, and so this script is

sort of based on my memory of what happened, and, like, those notes I had.

They showed me a clip of something that you made on YouTube.

You were at a gas station talking to a unit.

Oh yeah, that was from a comedy show I used to make called Nathan for You.

It was pretty clear from the moment I met her that she had no

real clue who I was or had seen anything I had made before.

And then she asked if you had kids.

Do you have kids?

No.

It's completely changed me.

I think you'd be great at...

Great at what?

Being a dad.

Which was...

Yeah.

So bizarre.

I don't know, it was weird because, like, when she said

that it actually, like, made me feel good for some reason.

It felt super sincere, but because I was feeling that, that weird mix of,

this feels so authentic with her, but then I don't trust it, it felt like

watching a magician.

Do you know who David Blaine is, the magician?

I do.

And that just came to your mind?

Yeah, in the moment.

Yeah.

And I wrote, this is basically verbatim what I told her.

Alright, so David Blaine does this thing where he

sticks an ice pick right through the palm of his hand.

And the way he presents it, it looks like a magic trick.

But I actually think he's really sticking the ice pick through his hand.

Like I saw in an interview, he said he, like, dug a tiny

hole through his hand so it, like, actually is going through.

But it always just looks like a trick to people because of how he presents it.

And what I find so interesting about you is that in the aftermath of everything

that's happened with you, with the reputation you have, no offense, but I don't think

anyone will ever believe you, ever again.

Like, you can be telling the truth as much as

you want, and just no one's going to believe you.

So when I said that to her, I remember her eyes lit

up, and she was, like, very excited by this idea.

And you're not really saying that it's, like, a good thing?

No.

And she's, like, she's taking credit.

Philly, did you hear what Nathan just said?

No.

What'd he say?

He said, like, I'm reminded of David Blaine.

She sort of paraphrased what I had said, and

then they had this weird look between each other.

Like, the two of them shared this knowing look, and I was like, what?

Philly said that your mind works in interesting ways.

Okay.

We only want to let people into our lives who think outside the box.

And you look at things differently, and you don't give a fuck what people think.

So after that, things came together really quickly.

We basically went from that first meeting to coming down to

shoot in the San Diego house they were renting within a week.

Oh my god.

Yeah.

Wow.

There was this urgency to get started with the

project because she was going to prison soon.

So we began filming with them before she had signed any appearance release.

Uh-oh.

But the thing that I can't get out of my head is something that happened at this

meeting that Philly said he wanted to have before they agreed to sign anything.

He requested we come to their friend's house in LA.

Hey.

They're in the kitchen.

Okay, great.

It was me, Lance, the co-director of this, and two executives from A24.

And we all sat around this table, and Liz started reading

the opening chapter to this, I guess, a book she was writing.

The first chapter I'm calling Waking Up.

We didn't know what the reason for the meeting was.

So when she started reading it, we were like, oh, is there a point to this?

I wouldn't say to the writer, but every time I saw the beams falling

through our windows, I was one with my dad from the moment I was born.

That's it.

That was so great.

That was incredible.

So you guys were all saying how great it is.

Well, we were trying to be polite.

Absolutely.

I mean, I didn't know really what to say.

For sure.

Of course.

And then you could hear her oldest child, like,

sort of yelling and playing in another room.

Yeah.

So she gets up in that moment from the table and goes to see the kids.

Okay.

So, guys, I think we need to have a conversation

about the terms of our involvement in this project.

Okay.

What do you mean by that?

Once she was gone, Billy started talking about money.

I don't know what your vision is for this project.

You guys are artists, and that's what drives you.

But I do know that there is potential for this movie to also make a lot of money.

And I feel strongly that if this movie

were to make money, that we should be entitled to some of it.

Which is not customary and just kind of unethical.

It's not customary for people to make a profit

off the documentaries that they're appearing in.

I mean, I was vocal with him, too.

I said, I agree with Ravi on this completely.

It is not a good idea.

Why not?

I mean, the optics are terrible.

If you guys are making money from this documentary, people are going

to question your guys' motives for being in it in the first place.

And also, it might give the perception that you guys

have a creative say over what the final product is.

This is not, it's not good for the film.

No, but I've looked into this, and there are many,

many examples of documentary subjects getting paid.

The Meghan Markle and Prince Harry documentary on Netflix, I

read somewhere that they got paid $100 million to make that.

That's not a real documentary.

I know, but Lance, I know it's bad, but the

fact is that they did get paid for that.

But then it ends.

It's a non-negotiable.

With him eating a slice of pizza.

Yeah, I guess the friend had got pizza for this

meeting, so there was, like, several pizzas there.

Um, like, what did you decide?

Well, at this point, like, he had all the leverage, so

A24 felt they had, like, no choice but to give him a

portion of the profits.

Shut the fuck up.

Yeah.

How did that make you feel?

Well, I was really frustrated because I felt like

the integrity of the project might be out the window.

And I actually considered just leaving the project and saying, well, I can't do this.

But then I also thought there might be something interesting about

the fact that we were sort of witnessing how these guys do business.

And how she operates with her romantic partner in relationships.

Yep.

I assume that even though, like, Liz wasn't in the room when he started making

demands, he would eventually, like, obviously tell her about the deal he made.

Yeah.

But then days before she headed to prison,

she said something that made me reconsider.

And this is actually something that we have on camera.

So it's really, can I show you?

Okay.

Yep.

This is still in San Diego.

Yes.

I think this is the moment in time to capture this story before I'm gone.

And hopefully the truth comes out.

Because obviously I'm not making any money or

having any economic interest in this whatsoever.

So I just think that's the right thing.

What do you make of that?

I believe that she has no idea that he asked for money.

Unless she's just...

I believe her.

I don't know why.

Like what?

I think this is the moment in time to capture this story before I'm gone.

And hopefully the truth comes out.

Because obviously I'm not making any money or

having any economic interest in this whatsoever.

So I just think that's the right thing.

Like, when this happened, you can see on my face

that I, like, I honestly didn't know how to respond.

I mean, there's obviously a chance that this is all complete bullshit, right?

There's a theory that this was a coordinated event.

That she intentionally left the room at a

certain point so Billy could talk about this.

And ultimately it was just all a ruse or a scheme to keep her hands clean.

While her partner does the dirty work.

And this is an insight into how she operates.

But for some reason, when she is saying this and the

way she says it, I don't know why, but my first instinct

is to believe her.

This is the moment in time to capture this story before I'm gone.

And hopefully the truth comes out.

Because obviously I'm not making any money or

having any economic interest in this whatsoever.

Yeah, she seems just like...

Here's the thing.

Can she really be this out of the loop?

Like when deals are being made in her name?

This is the woman that created Theranos.

Like, I don't even know if there's two ways about it.

Either this is fully sincere and she actually

has no clue about the deal Billy made.

Or...

She honestly might be The most manipulative person

that's ever lived It wouldn't be our fault If

we got duped by her, I guess I don't want to

let it happen That's just personal Yeah She

has nothing to gain from him behaving like this.

It's crazy Money Don't

get taken in.

Okay.

Don't get lured.

Don't get don't let her get in your head.

She still looks If he would be interested and You know, if

he if he's available, I don't know I think I could probably Disarm

him and then ask him the questions that were there to ask him Well,

what did you get from them that I couldn't I just feel like people

trust me people say talk talk to me They sometimes say too much.

I Would take advantage of that Does he know anything about the

reenactment No, what does Billy know about my involvement

All I told him is that We've gotten to know each

other Casually You're in Texas and that I asked if he would like tag along And he

seemed like he was into that Did he ask why I wanted to?

He actually didn't Very interesting He doesn't

know me or anything about me So what does

that mean?

You just need like you're like an undercover cop right now.

It's like crazy You like that feeling?

I do You okay?

Yeah Yep, just another day, you know Let's go grab our food Is there food here?

No, for the kids Is there food outside?

Amanda, nice to meet you, you're so tall What's your name?

Let's go read your guys' books I'm gonna go read your books I'm gonna put you

to bed and I'll be back in maybe 15 minutes Say goodnight Give her a big hug

Listen, you are a real stand up lady And Your pajamas are the

best And whatever you're drinking looks delicious So you got it

really going on You got it going on, huh?

Goodnight children It's Monday Are you ready?

We only have 2 minutes with Monday So just wait a second Hey

baby, I'm here with Wills and Ivy Booyah Booyah I

know we only have 2 minutes But we love you And

then Nathan and Lance And Amanda's here, say hi

Hi Did you know I was gonna be here?

Okay I'm so sorry I don't want to ruin your 2 minutes

with your beautiful family We're having a good talk You

have a beautiful family No, I don't even Sorry, you're wonderful I

love you Can I call you later?

Yeah, you can give me a call later Say bye mommy Wills, big bye Okay, say goodnight

everyone I don't know if I know I don't know if I know Did

you know I was gonna be here?

I don't know if I knew Is that what you said?

Do you know how much stock she ever sold?

Nothing Zero She literally could have had A billion and a half dollars personally

And still been a majority shareholder How are you guys making money now?

She gets paid 30 cents an hour What about you?

I've got my own business I don't know To be honest

The thing I've been thinking about Is just like Like

How decisions are made And how Much is You know Her These are

her desires Or these are yours Or these are both I think they're one

and the same Because the life that the two of us Intended to live Is

one for our family Like she is my She is my soul Do you have conjugal visits?

There's no conjugal visits I've been laid for 899 days It's day

899 Tomorrow's day 900 I count the days That you haven't had sex?

Yeah, day 900 Other than Pamela Anderson Excuse me?

He's masturbating I feel like a lot of women would say Sex is better by

myself Yeah, that's because most men aren't good at it Are you good at sex?

Yeah, I'm fucking excellent How do you know?

Because I lied every time You lied about what?

To every partner Like you'd say if it was bad Oh that

was so good So how do you know you weren't getting that?

That's my point Can we change the subject?

Let's talk about something else So how is Liz getting info?

She doesn't have the internet in there, right?

I send her so many emails So she has email but not internet?

Yeah So she's like Sending tweets like today How does that work?

Yeah, some of them are just me Some?

And she does others?

Yeah, I'd say 80% of it's her How does she do it?

Well, I mean I'm physically putting it on the internet But she sends me an email saying Here's this

line of text And I copy it and I paste it And I put it on the internet But she writes it Do you

tell her that you're doing it?

Yeah She knows that whatever she sends is like fair game for you?

No, she just trusts me Some things that she doesn't frame

As like for the internet I put there How did it begin?

Was she like I wanna start?

No, I told her to I just said fuck this,

I'm tired of the silence What's she saying?

And I can read you some of them Yeah, what is it?

What's the Is she talking about Biotech?

Is she talking about what she's doing?

So there's this photo of like shitty weed It says,

what do you call this kind of weed Where you were from?

Wait, she posted this?

No, somebody posted this And I wrote Or she wrote No, I wrote this But it was her?

Yeah, from her account I said mandatory sentence extension

And a free trip to the solitary housing unit Oh my god You

wrote that Oh my god, what would she say If she saw her ex account

She was like, this is not me No, it is her, she'd think it's hilarious

Yeah Is it How did the account get like She had an account

from years ago 15 years ago So how did you get access?

I messaged one of the top people at ex And I just said Hey, this is

who I am Here's a power of attorney I need access to her account Power

of attorney?

Yeah, I can do anything legally for Liz Anything You have power of attorney?

Yeah, like unalienable, so I can literally do anything I don't understand How the fuck

you got that She signed a document that said I had power of attorney Why would she

do that?

Because we trust each other But she's alive And functioning

But there's a lot of things she can't do But don't do

anything crazy There's just a bunch of nasty things in here

That I really shouldn't say The problem is If I had to clear

everything by her I think for too long She just let things slide

And I don't fucking take it I know, but that's not her Yeah

That's you And I don't think it's good I don't think it's helpful She was cool with everything

that I said Amanda, with all due respect Your advice is one of the last ones I would

take On this subject Your experience with social media hasn't exactly been successful Over

the course of the last six months It's been very successful In distancing 50% of the country

Wait, for what?

Yeah, Amanda was getting dragged on social media Because she said something

shitty about Charlie Kirk I just said he was hateful For two days She got

fucking dragged Is she a Charlie Kirk fan?

I am You are?

I think he's a fucking pussy I hope his voice carries far You're not going

to like my political voice I don't want to hear it Because I'm better

read than you I don't like the fact that he was performative When he

was with those people You're a fucking actress And then an asshole Who

played my wife With no research Talk about

performative I think the writers and the producers

Of the shows are deplorable people Because they just made a bunch of shit up

I hear what you're saying I'm just giving you a little bit more content I hear

you Whose lives?

Fucking everyone I've got vengeance in my heart

You can still be angry But you can cause more of an

impact The problem is I'm fucking good at it Good at what?

I'm pretty strategic I'm well resourced I know people

who can do just about anything To harm people It's

exactly what it says But

then Liz is in my mind And she says Don't feel that way It doesn't

matter I love you Everything's okay And then I get calm He is

batshit crazy He's an angry Fucking guy Why the fuck would you be her voice?

The only voice she has In the world right now When she's in prison I mean some of the

things he's posting Well I don't know if this is coming from him or her But it just

doesn't sound like her Like a response like that Yes you

fucking idiot Yes you fucking idiot She doesn't talk like that

She would never say that But this is her twitter and it's like verified It's crazy

Like someone's asking her if she's wearing a crypto token And she goes fuck off

Like in what world That's not being supportive of her having a

voice At all And this is sort of a crazy one So someone asked

her On twitter Did you watch the dropout And she

wrote never will But she's seen it And when this

documentary comes out This will be like seen as a

lie Nathan I swear I'm 99.9% sure She has no idea

That that's been written So

you can get a medium and split it Into two cups Ivy doesn't

Thank you so much When I left the prison the other day

With both of the kids in the car And just me There's three cars

tailing my car So I recorded an interview For the purpose of Like

if anything happens to me it goes live What do you mean by anything happens to you

Like if I'm killed Or if I get hurt Or somebody tries to silence me Then Everything

goes out So it's kind of like Insurance But do you feel like

there's an imminent threat Right now I mean there's a reason why I

carry a gun on me 24-7 365 Um Do you have a gun on you right now

Oh here it works Yeah It is scary good if you give

it the right data Hello my name is Liz I'm Nick

What's the goal with something like that Let people do whatever

they want with it Huh Yeah It's going to happen anyways

So if you're going to have it happen You might as well have the representation of her Like

actually look like her Right well what if they bring images of her like having sex Like corneas I

think people are going to do that Like there's no stopping that Okay Let

me ask you this Is Liz Aware Of the details Of the deal you made for her to

Appear in this documentary Which Which details So Liz

told me Before she went in Well she's aware of some

of the details The stuff related to like The money No I

purposely didn't want her to be aware of all of it Why

Because she was handling A lot of shit at the time Okay

Like be specific And I'm happy to answer Any very specific question Okay Is she

interested in Making money from this No The

central thing That you guys have been trying to argue From the beginning is

Liz is someone Who doesn't care about money That's not what motivates her

So you're taking an action that Directly puts that into question Yeah and

she didn't want to But I'm practical Well the reason I'm bringing this

up Is like There's still like Opportunity to

change this When you profit off The back end of a

movie That doesn't pay out Until the movie comes out So like I hear

you And I will I'll think about it When you said

You said that Liz Knew some of the details Of the

deal that you made What were those details Oh gosh

I don't remember All I do remember is that She was not involved in the process So

I don't remember what she saw Or what she knew of Alright I

don't know if she's ever seen that But I don't really remember Dear

Elizabeth Comma I'd like to Try to establish a direct

Line of communication to you If that's something You'd be open to Period It's

been challenging to talk Like we used to Um Period

Billy is concerned about Leaks to the press And

because your mail is monitored I know I can't say much

Comma But You've been on my mind A lot lately And I

have some questions That I think only you can answer Period I'm

in a hotel room In New York City right now I'm

here because I recently went through a breakup

But You don't have to worry about me Because I'm doing okay Exclamation point

Billy had mentioned that There's no way to schedule a phone call with you At a

specific time Because it's first come first serve And everyone just has to wait

In a really long line Period So how about this Um I assume it's at

least three days Before you receive this letter So

on December 19th Um I'm going to be by my phone From

7am to 7pm Your time Texas time I really hope to hear from you That day Liz Keep

it up in there Or From Comma Nathan Okay

Billy Billy just messaged Liz said you wanted Her to call

this morning Is that still something you want Can you give me

context But she told him

What is the window He just messaged that Would 815 her time work for her Hello

Hello hey I was trying to get a hold of you While I had her on

the video To confirm the call But she just left the video Okay Can

she call though Or Well I couldn't confirm it with her I was

trying to call you While she was on the video To be able to tell

her Oh but I texted you That I'm around Yeah but I wanted to get context And Sorry

I thought it was already Confirmed Is she going to be around

to talk She is very guarded With her minutes On the phone

So I think Yeah Um You

know I wasn't super happy About a number of things From the office And I felt like you

were ambushing me On some of the subjects Without giving me any context beforehand For

us to be able to talk through them Yeah because I want it on camera It's

a documentary It left me with a bad taste in my mouth And I think that My

willingness to facilitate your conversations With Liz are pretty low right now

Because Yeah I would just say I don't know if you're going to get that Well

Why would you not want to facilitate You just cannot record the call Because she can get in

a lot of trouble For that So I wanted to confirm with you that you weren't going to be doing

that See now you're not even acknowledging The fact that you're not doing it

The warden is in a place right now That if she gets light

Of You recording her while she's in prison She'll be

shipped to a different facility If anyone records

her While she's in prison If you guys are recording

If they think that she is Knowingly facilitating Recording

She could get sent to a higher security facility Which means

that The kids and I wouldn't be able to see her on the weekends And the last

thing that I want to do Is to make it so I need to move to fucking Arizona I

just think I just think we need to hear her I get it The

subject of your film You cannot talk to It makes for an

impossible scenario I totally understand But if you guys are going to

be putting this out I can promise you She's going to get fucked Okay

I just hope that you can see it from my

perspective Uh So we'll see if she calls you

or not Um

Oh no Fuck No I went to voicemail Oh she's

probably here Okay give me your phone We're

from a federal prison You will not be charged for this call

This call is from Elizabeth Wolfe This call is from A subject

you're monitoring at any time To accept this call Press

5 To block this call and all future calls Press 7 To

reject this call hang up now You may begin speaking now Hello

Hey Hi I was trying to get a hold of you And it wouldn't let that phone

number go through But I don't know if you guys are together Oh yeah you called

Lance's phone Oh yeah no worries How are you I'm good How are you doing Can

you move a little further away from the mic Yeah yeah Um I've been

thinking about you And everything that you've been going through

I don't find the right person I don't That's nice of you

to say I know what it means From going through all this

It's nice to hear your voice I know We gotta get you out here soon Yeah I

think that would be great Me too The phone minutes are

gonna be short By the way it's gonna cut out Mhm How

is your dating going What do you mean Pardon me What do you mean by that Hmm

I don't know I shouldn't quite say it like that What do you mean by that Okay

That's close enough Oh just sort of Open ended I don't know

what's been going on I was just curious Just like small

talk What's your day Well I'm in cell and locked down a lot Mhm I wanted

to ask you something Oh gosh this guy's gonna hang up I wouldn't leave

past my minutes You need to come visit Oh yeah I wanna see you We'll

make it happen Come Okay Alright bye Okay Come

on baby You just need to get there It's the only time

You're gonna have any private moments With her And

I also think she's covering Because she's being reported by the prison That's why she

wants you to come But then the issue is sort of like We don't have the ability To bring

cameras in there But you're gonna have to just trust yourself To know Trust yourself

in the fact that you're really gonna ask her questions I know how you convey What I

experience I will reenact whatever you want me to reenact And

I mean this is no offense to you You're a very talented actress

Very good performer

You know, you're not her.

No, I know.

And so...

But guess how many people believed that that was her when I played her?

A lot.

I know, but the point isn't convincing people that this is her.

The point is, okay, whatever I discover in there, that should be conveyed

accurately.

What did you do?

I farted.

Sorry, I'm

a little sick.

So what happened?

The first thing you do is you go through security.

You're not allowed any electronic device, no

camera, no recording equipment, not even a watch.

The only thing allowed to bring in is a credit card and your ID.

I know from talking to Billie that it doesn't show up right at the start of

the visitor time, which is 8 a.m. So my thinking is, if I get there right at 8,

they'll have like a full hour with her, at least, before he shows up.

Then the door opens from the inside of the prison to the

visitor room and two other inmates come out, but not her.

What are you thinking?

Well, there's no clock in the room, so I don't know how much time is passing, and

they're supposed to call her and she's supposed to be there within five minutes.

So I start looking for a clock and I can't find one.

Yeah.

And then I sort of wander over to the vending machines and

I'm looking at those and I see there is a clock on the credit

card reader on the vending machine and I see in there the time is like 8 30.

So I've been waiting for 20 minutes and she's not out yet.

I go back to my seat and I keep waiting and I

start to wonder if she's going to show up at all.

So the door opens again and it's her.

She looked right at me, came towards me.

I stood up and she hugged me and it was a very strong hug.

And I felt her body like vibrating, like shaking in the hug.

It lasted about 10 seconds.

Was her shaking authentic?

Yeah, that's how it felt from her.

Then immediately she says to me, you look different.

Oh yeah?

How?

You seem more serious.

Did I not seem serious before?

So I don't know, whatever.

But we sit down and I noticed a family member of another inmate was carrying

a bunch of snacks back from the vending machines and she was like looking

over at that.

So I just felt, oh like, do you want some food?

And she was like, that'd be great.

But you don't have to, we're just not allowed to buy snacks ourselves.

From the machines?

Yeah.

Oh yeah, no problem.

What do you want?

I like the turkey jerky.

Funny that she likes turkey jerky so much.

So you get to the vending machine, it's already 8.55

and you know Billy's coming in like five minutes.

I know Billy comes around nine, so I just don't know how much time I have.

So how do you know Amanda Seyfried, she says?

I mean, the way she says it is Seyfried.

So how do you know Amanda Seyfried?

So she brings me up.

So yeah, she brought you up.

She says, you know, people in here think that Amanda's show is a documentary.

They think everything in there happened.

A guard came up to me and said that I was a terrible person and I

asked what they had read and all they had seen is Amanda's show.

Yeah, I don't know really about that stuff.

I get treated worse in here because of her portrayal of me and it's

really fucked up that a woman would do something like that to another

woman.

Okay, wow.

I didn't do that to her.

She did that to herself.

I think it's, I mean, my defenses are up because I'm like,

yeah, I feel bad for the way you're being treated here.

Um, but also it's not our job to teach people things.

I mean, I have nothing against Amanda personally, but the women who

made the show, all of them, they knew exactly what they were doing.

They knew that the show was filled with lies.

I mean, lies aren't, it's not lies.

I'm not, like, those aren't lies.

They're, it's, it's, it's fucking TV, you know.

If the show hadn't been made, people would still

have fucking bullied her for what they think she did.

When the machine exploded and blood spurted out and

then she said, you know what, it doesn't matter.

Did that happen?

I don't know if she says, you know what, it didn't matter

because she behaved as though, you know what, it didn't matter.

But there's no, it's possible that she said that.

But that lie is made up.

Yeah, absolutely.

We weren't there.

It's so painful to, to, I'm just, I'm tired of, of, of having other people.

I just don't want that to ever happen again.

I think this is all Billy getting, getting into her head.

It's, what is it, it's a conspiracy now.

Amanda's show.

Okay.

Hmm.

Okay.

So I'm starting to get a little nervous because we

haven't gotten to the thing that I came to talk about yet.

And I just don't know when Billy's going to show up.

So, um, when we were with you a few years ago, back

in San Diego, Del Mar, did Billy ever tell you the

details of the deal he made for your involvement in this project?

Uh, I'm not really sure what you mean by that.

Well, he negotiated a contract to get paid a portion of the profits of the film.

Yeah.

I mean, I, I'm not, I'm not really involved in,

in that because it's just not really my thing.

Billy told me he knew some of the details of the deal he made.

What details did you know?

And Liz says, well, I knew he was talking to you about it.

Well, I knew that he was talking to you about it.

So she knew that when she went upstairs to check on the

kids, that the money stuff was going to be discussed

because she's telling you she knew.

And that clarifies the fact that she had

knowledge of the deal, which is very strange.

Um, and it does start, it's starting to feel

like she is just trying to keep her hands clean.

Cause it's interesting because when she said that to me, how'd you feel?

I didn't instantly receive it as, or she must be deceiving me.

So maybe she didn't actually say it like this.

I'm wondering, maybe she said, well, I knew

he was talking to you about something, not it.

Those are two different parts for sure.

And yeah, I feel confident about that.

Okay.

So, um, can you change that in your script actually?

Will you change it to something?

I knew that he was talking to you about something you did.

Yeah.

Again, this is more his thing.

We are very separate on these things.

I guess what I'm wondering is, is this something that you want?

Because there still is time to change it.

It's not my world anymore.

It doesn't pertain to me.

You know, it was not my focus at the time.

How does it not pertain to you?

He negotiated a deal to profit off your participation in

this movie, a deal that you're both going to benefit from.

And you keep ringing this bell that you don't care about money.

Okay.

So you have no opinion about how turning this thing into an

opportunity for profit is going to affect that perception of you?

I completely understand where you're coming from.

And if you think it's bad for the project, I'll talk

to Billy, but our finances are completely separate.

Come on, Liz, you have kids together.

So whether or not she knew about the financial part of the deal is one thing.

Maybe she did.

Maybe she didn't, but I could not get a sense of how she felt about it.

And it almost seemed like she had no opinion of her own.

Let me talk to Billy and I'm sure whatever the path is, it'll be great.

This is so frustrating.

What is she?

How is she going to get any help if she's just

like, like, like hiding behind this, this jackass.

I find it interesting that you can be someone who doesn't care

about money, but you're intertwined with someone who does.

And you're not eager to influence decisions in that relationship.

Does that actually mean you don't care about money?

Sort of hard to tell.

I don't have the option to care about money.

I owe hundreds of millions of dollars of restitution.

Every dollar I make, they take from me.

I promise I'll talk to him.

Are you even aware of the decisions he's making on your behalf?

That photo of yourself that you hate is currently

blown up on billboards all across America.

I heard about that.

He told you about that?

I mean, he's created an AI version of you that can say whatever he wants to say.

And he's pretending to be on Twitter and telling people to go fuck themselves.

I can't imagine that these are things that you want.

Billy has his own way of doing things.

Okay.

This whole experience, this fire that we're going

through together, it's just annealed our love

in such an intense way.

Annealed?

Yeah.

I feel him so deeply.

Even when I'm in my cell, alone, you know, I, I feel him with me.

And we don't even need to speak.

And that's how I talk to him.

I have conversations with him in my head.

And I know what he's feeling and what he would say.

Let's keep going.

I see these couples who've been together for years and years,

and they're supposedly in love, but you can see that they're not.

And I'm like, why?

Why?

Why would you do that to yourself?

And I've never had that with Billy.

Not once, not once.

And I don't have to pretend with him anymore.

It's so, it's just so real, you guys.

And we're building many months of love for each other each and every day.

Ever since Billy has come into my life, I've become convinced

that our idea of what we believe to be God is actually

love.

I mean, I don't know if this is like a Stockholm syndrome symptom.

I don't know.

I guess in the moment I thought it was like, kind of nice.

Are you kidding me?

He's the most selfish.

He's a, he's a narcissist.

Well, I think the love is like real.

Not sense duress.

I did not sense fear.

I sensed just complete, unbridled, genuine.

She looks great.

I'm just curious.

Yeah.

There were moments or was a moment when you guys were alone in the prison.

And I'm just wondering if there was maybe a moment where she was being

deceitful or manipulative and you're not including it because you're being

protective of her.

Why would you think I was doing that?

I don't know.

Well, what do you mean?

I don't know.

I feel like from nowhere.

I'm no, I just feel like maybe you're just don't want to portray something that

might hurt her.

Why would I not want to portray something that might hurt her?

Because you care about her.

I'm not putting, I'm not really putting my feelings into this or I'm trying not to.

I'm just trying to be accurate.

You know, why

are you smiling?