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?
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The leader of
an alleged sex cult
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Has been arrested in mexico.
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He's charged with federal
sex trafficking.
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Green: A so-called self-help
guru allegedly coerced women
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Into having sex with him
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And also branded them as part
of an initiation ceremony.
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Narrator: The rise and fall
of keith raniere and nxivm
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Is one of the most disturbing
scandals of our age.
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What began as a purported
self-help group
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Spiraled into a dark, secretive
pit of illicit sex,
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Money laundering,
and exploitation.
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He wanted to impose his will
on people and control people.
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He mandated this
torturing of women.
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He branded them.
He scarred them for life.
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And I think he took
pleasure in that.
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Sometimes desperate situations
require desperate measures.
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Narrator: After decades ruling
a criminal enterprise,
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Raniere never thought
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A whistle-blower
could bring him down.
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But frank parlato
did just that.
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And he's not finished
exposing raniere's misdeeds.
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Parlato has unique access
to victims
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And former nxivm members
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Who are in charge of hiding
the cult's activities,
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Some of whom have
never spoken before.
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Now, parlato will shed light
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On possibly the darkest
nxivm secret of all --
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The deaths of four women.
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?
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?
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?
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-- Captions by vitac --
www.Vitac.Com
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Captions paid for by
discovery communications
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?
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[ cellphone rings ]
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Hello?
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Yeah, her family never knew
what happened to her.
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But we're going to find out.
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?
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?
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My name is frank parlato, and
I'm an investigative journalist.
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In 2007 I worked for nxivm
for six months.
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One of my jobs
was to refurbish their image
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As a legitimate self-help group.
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At one time, he was hired
as nxivm's publicist.
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Nxivm turned around
and came after frank,
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And he became a target
like many others within nxivm.
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Parlato: I was abruptly fired
when I began to look into
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What happened
to some missing money.
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The total was a little bit
more than $90 million.
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I suspected that keith raniere
had embezzled the money.
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Raniere wanted to destroy me.
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It was either me or him.
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So I became a journalist.
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My goal was to expose nxivm.
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On June 5, 2017,
I broke the story
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That nxivm was branding women
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Under the direction
of keith raniere.
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?
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00:03:57,871 --> 00:04:04,309
?
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My current investigation
leads me to believe
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That raniere could be
responsible for the deaths
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Of kristin snyder,
gina hutchinson,
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Barbara jeske,
and pam cafritz.
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?
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?
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-Whoa, that was an alpine turn.
-That was a beautiful turn.
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Snyder:
See, I can -- uh-oh.
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?
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Narrator: In 1999,
31-year-old kristin snyder
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Moved from kentucky to alaska.
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She was pursuing a career
as an environmental consultant.
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By all accounts she was
a happy, well-respected
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Member of her community.
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00:05:03,070 --> 00:05:04,536
Snyder was ambitious.
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She wanted to improve herself
and her career.
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00:05:07,341 --> 00:05:10,642
That's when she discovered
executive success programs,
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Also known as esp.
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?
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Frank parlato is
in anchorage, alaska,
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To examine
the mysterious details
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Surrounding the disappearance
of kristin snyder.
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?
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?
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Parlato has arranged
to get a copy
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Of kristin snyder's
police report
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From the anchorage
police department.
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On February 7, 2003,
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They opened a missing-persons
case on snyder.
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She was last seen
at a local hotel
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Where she was attending
a self-help seminar.
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Witnesses stated that snyder was
forcibly removed from the class
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Because she was acting
erratically.
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When she did not arrive home
later that night,
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Her wife, heidi clifford,
reported her missing.
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Kristin's pickup truck was found
two days later in seward,
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A 2-1/2-hour
drive from anchorage,
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At the edge of resurrection bay.
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A letter inside the truck
indicated that snyder
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Was planning to commit suicide.
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And on a separate sheet
of paper,
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A note said, "no need
to search for my body."
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?
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[ sighs ]
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?
107
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I'm going to meet alan nickell.
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He's an officer with
the seward police department.
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He was there on patrol
the night she was missing
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And he was looking for her.
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Nickell: We responded out here,
we looked around.
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00:07:03,424 --> 00:07:05,957
It was just
incredibly foggy that night.
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We could hardly see right off
the hood of the car.
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Found her car out here.
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Never found the body.
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They never found her body?
No.
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On the morning of the 8th --
she disappeared on the 6th --
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The millers of miller's landing
resort discovered a storage shed
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Had been broken into
and an old kayak was missing.
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The storage was close to where
the vehicle was located.
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The theory would be, right,
that she broke in,
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Had a choice of kayaks,
and she took one.
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Yeah.
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Paddled out on resurrection
bay, deliberately capsized.
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There's nothing in this
that even says
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That she actually left
in the kayak.
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Is it fair to say
it's also hypothetical
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That she committed
suicide here?
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It is, yeah.
Because it's unsolved.
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We don't know
what happened to her.
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00:08:05,419 --> 00:08:08,019
We're going to
have to get down
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And do our own street-level
investigation.
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So I'm going to go through
this police report
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And I'm going to call
everybody on it.
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I'm going to try for this guy,
kenny powers.
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He's a friend of kristin snyder.
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This is kenny.
Hey, kenny,
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Frank parlato calling.
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How are you?
Good.
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I'm here in anchorage to try
to ascertain a few details
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About kristin
marie snyder.
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I was hoping
I could talk with you.
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Certainly.
Thank you, sir.
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?
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Powers: I was the director
of the ski patrol.
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Kristin, she expressed
a lot of interest
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In search and rescue.
So I was grooming her,
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If you will, to be the next
search and rescue leader.
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Kris was a great person.
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Super nice. Smart.
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00:09:04,077 --> 00:09:05,911
She's a very
close friend of mine.
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She was a stable person.
153
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This was so unbelievably
out of the ordinary
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In terms of behavior for her.
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What happened the day
that she was last seen?
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Heidi called me
that afternoon and said
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Kris walked out of the esp
seminar this afternoon,
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Said something scary-ish,
and left.
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00:09:31,939 --> 00:09:36,141
And heidi had not chased after
at the time,
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But when she got home
a couple of hours later,
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Kris was gone.
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The ski patrol, which
is a rescue organization
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Is like, "we go to find kris."
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30 nordic ski patrollers
out there looking
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On top of the alaska
state troopers
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And the anchorage
police department.
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00:09:56,296 --> 00:10:01,132
There's a coast guard cutter,
helicopters in the air.
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00:10:01,234 --> 00:10:04,135
Hundreds of people
looking for kris.
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00:10:06,540 --> 00:10:09,708
It was like a police officer
gets shot and the call goes out,
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You know,
"police officer down."
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And you don't get one police car
that shows up, you get 20.
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And it was like that
with kris.
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[ exhales sharply ]
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[voice breaking]
she's one of us.
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And we tried to find her.
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?
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00:10:37,304 --> 00:10:41,072
Narrator: By 2003, nxivm
training centers for esp,
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The executive success program,
had been established
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Throughout the united states,
including alaska.
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00:10:47,147 --> 00:10:49,214
The courses attracted
thousands of members
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Who paid $7,000
each for an intensive
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00:10:52,586 --> 00:10:56,421
16-day self-development
workshop.
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00:10:56,556 --> 00:10:59,524
Why would kristin snyder,
a successful professional
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Who had invested
so much financially,
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Suddenly leave the nxivm class.
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00:11:05,799 --> 00:11:10,435
Snyder took her first nxivm
course in November of 2002.
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Three months later, snyder
was already in the middle
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Of her second 16-day course.
189
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On the 10th day of training,
she was asked to leave
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And never seen again.
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00:11:22,983 --> 00:11:29,554
?
192
00:11:29,656 --> 00:11:36,061
?
193
00:11:58,719 --> 00:12:04,222
?
194
00:12:04,324 --> 00:12:06,357
It's such a bizarre story.
It doesn't --
195
00:12:06,460 --> 00:12:11,563
Well, so many components
of it sound so unreal, you know?
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The details following
the disappearance are strange.
197
00:12:15,435 --> 00:12:21,573
So there's a lot of questions
and not a lot of answers.
198
00:12:21,675 --> 00:12:26,511
I never talked about it
at all until today.
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00:12:26,613 --> 00:12:32,984
?
200
00:12:41,027 --> 00:12:44,996
?
201
00:12:45,098 --> 00:12:47,332
Narrator: Kristin snyder
was 35 years old
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When she disappeared
in February of 2003.
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00:12:51,671 --> 00:12:54,139
Her abandoned truck
was discovered at the edge
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00:12:54,241 --> 00:12:56,174
Of resurrection bay, alaska,
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00:12:56,276 --> 00:13:00,178
With what appeared to be
a suicide note inside.
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00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:01,946
Before she vanished,
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00:13:02,048 --> 00:13:04,215
Snyder was taking
a self-help course
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00:13:04,317 --> 00:13:06,484
Called executive
success program,
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00:13:06,586 --> 00:13:08,520
Or esp.
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00:13:08,622 --> 00:13:11,489
Later it would be known
simply as nxivm.
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A friend of snyder's
who was taking the same course
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00:13:17,230 --> 00:13:20,031
Has agreed to tell us
what she knows.
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00:13:20,133 --> 00:13:21,766
Out of fear of retaliation
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00:13:21,868 --> 00:13:25,336
By followers of nxivm leader,
keith raniere,
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00:13:25,438 --> 00:13:29,574
She's requested
that we conceal her identity.
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00:13:29,676 --> 00:13:34,979
Woman: Kristin took the class
in November of 2002.
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For her to do this was, like,
a huge undertaking for her
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00:13:38,552 --> 00:13:43,922
To spend $10,000, $12,000
for the first class.
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00:13:44,024 --> 00:13:47,725
When kristin brought me in,
it was very intense.
220
00:13:47,828 --> 00:13:51,896
And you're with 15 strangers
that you didn't know at all.
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00:13:51,998 --> 00:13:54,699
And then, within a day
222
00:13:54,801 --> 00:13:57,869
You're divulging your deepest,
darkest secrets.
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00:13:57,971 --> 00:14:04,142
Kris started shipping out, being
quite vocal, quite distressed,
224
00:14:04,244 --> 00:14:06,945
And so I went to the leader
of the class
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00:14:07,047 --> 00:14:08,680
And said, "I'm going
to bring her
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00:14:08,782 --> 00:14:11,749
To the alaska
psychiatric institute."
227
00:14:11,852 --> 00:14:14,285
I was there trying
to support her,
228
00:14:14,387 --> 00:14:15,887
And they would separate us
intentionally.
229
00:14:15,989 --> 00:14:20,892
They would completely separate
her having support from me.
230
00:14:20,994 --> 00:14:23,294
Whoever would be
watching intently,
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00:14:23,396 --> 00:14:26,231
They were just making sure
that we were not together.
232
00:14:26,333 --> 00:14:29,634
I can't even remember
anybody's name in that class.
233
00:14:29,736 --> 00:14:32,203
They just kept pulling her
out of the room.
234
00:14:35,008 --> 00:14:39,611
?
235
00:14:39,713 --> 00:14:42,680
This is the copy
of the suicide note.
236
00:14:42,782 --> 00:14:45,884
"I attended a course called
executive success programs
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00:14:45,986 --> 00:14:48,119
(aka nxivm)
238
00:14:48,221 --> 00:14:51,756
Based out of anchorage,
alaska, and albany, new york.
239
00:14:51,858 --> 00:14:53,791
I was brainwashed
and my emotional center
240
00:14:53,894 --> 00:14:57,195
Of the brain was killed
and turned off.
241
00:14:57,297 --> 00:15:00,331
I still have feeling
in my external skin
242
00:15:00,433 --> 00:15:03,801
But my internal organs
are rotting.
243
00:15:03,904 --> 00:15:05,436
I'm sorry life,
244
00:15:05,538 --> 00:15:08,172
I didn't know
I was already dead.
245
00:15:08,275 --> 00:15:11,409
No need to search my body."
246
00:15:11,511 --> 00:15:17,148
Was this potential suicide
letter in kris's car coerced?
247
00:15:17,250 --> 00:15:20,385
Was it her willingly writing it?
248
00:15:20,487 --> 00:15:22,186
You don't know.
249
00:15:22,289 --> 00:15:26,157
?
250
00:15:26,259 --> 00:15:29,193
Raniere: But when I look at
what's going on in the world,
251
00:15:29,296 --> 00:15:33,631
Seriously I feel it's not right
and something needs to be done.
252
00:15:33,733 --> 00:15:35,967
Someone has to do something.
253
00:15:36,069 --> 00:15:38,436
And if you want to take
the next step, you'll need
254
00:15:38,538 --> 00:15:41,139
To take the initiative
and sign up now
255
00:15:41,241 --> 00:15:45,143
To attend one of
our introductory weekends.
256
00:15:45,245 --> 00:15:48,012
Lalich: Thousands of people
took those courses.
257
00:15:48,114 --> 00:15:51,082
They really believed they were
creating a better world.
258
00:15:51,184 --> 00:15:54,118
They were doing all of this
out of the best intent.
259
00:15:54,220 --> 00:15:56,354
And some of the people
who took courses
260
00:15:56,456 --> 00:15:57,989
Maybe got something out of it.
261
00:15:58,091 --> 00:16:00,291
You like to think about justice.
262
00:16:00,393 --> 00:16:03,428
But justice
is something we earn.
263
00:16:03,530 --> 00:16:06,965
They thought of themselves
as humanitarians
264
00:16:07,067 --> 00:16:10,868
And so they were doing all
of this out of the best intent.
265
00:16:12,472 --> 00:16:15,673
Rosales:
Keith raniere's students were
largely educated, you know,
266
00:16:15,775 --> 00:16:19,243
They had jobs, they had
decent careers, families.
267
00:16:19,346 --> 00:16:21,245
But they wanted
to improve themselves.
268
00:16:21,348 --> 00:16:22,280
So what you're going to see
269
00:16:22,382 --> 00:16:24,849
Is how the anger
covers the fear.
270
00:16:24,951 --> 00:16:28,386
Ucci:
I really loved self-development
workshops, schools, programs,
271
00:16:28,488 --> 00:16:31,756
I love that kind
of an exploration.
272
00:16:31,858 --> 00:16:34,492
Rosales: The classes would be
$2,000 or $3,000.
273
00:16:34,594 --> 00:16:36,394
Some members were in debt,
you know,
274
00:16:36,496 --> 00:16:38,363
$200,000, $300,000.
275
00:16:38,465 --> 00:16:40,498
Lyons: The courses themselves
seemed to be built
276
00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:42,767
Like a pyramid scheme.
277
00:16:42,869 --> 00:16:44,635
Where, "oh, that's great.
You finished that training,
278
00:16:44,738 --> 00:16:46,537
But now you need this training,
you need more,
279
00:16:46,639 --> 00:16:48,673
You need more, you need more."
280
00:16:48,775 --> 00:16:51,876
Glazer: In many cases, some
of these young students,
281
00:16:51,978 --> 00:16:53,244
They were going to lose
all their money,
282
00:16:53,346 --> 00:16:54,679
They were going to go into debt.
283
00:16:54,781 --> 00:16:56,080
They were going
to become trapped.
284
00:16:56,182 --> 00:16:58,816
They were going to be forced
into servitude.
285
00:16:58,918 --> 00:16:59,984
They were stuck.
286
00:17:00,086 --> 00:17:05,823
?
287
00:17:05,925 --> 00:17:11,429
?
288
00:17:11,531 --> 00:17:13,898
Parlato:
There was a search here.
289
00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:17,168
Two days after she disappeared.
290
00:17:17,270 --> 00:17:20,238
It seems to me
that it's not very likely
291
00:17:20,340 --> 00:17:24,742
That there would not have been
a trace of kristin snyder.
292
00:17:24,844 --> 00:17:28,212
I don't know what the usual
result of these searches are.
293
00:17:28,314 --> 00:17:29,580
I need to find out.
294
00:17:29,682 --> 00:17:33,117
?
295
00:17:33,219 --> 00:17:35,753
Parlato: How long have you
been harbormaster?
296
00:17:35,855 --> 00:17:38,456
Regis: I've been harbormaster
since 2014.
297
00:17:38,558 --> 00:17:40,458
I've been with
the harbor since '94.
298
00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:43,594
Well, it seems you've had some
history with this water, right?
299
00:17:43,696 --> 00:17:45,630
Yeah.
300
00:17:45,732 --> 00:17:47,765
"no need.
To search for my body."
301
00:17:47,867 --> 00:17:51,769
A search was conducted
and her body was not found.
302
00:17:51,871 --> 00:17:54,038
And that's why
we're looking into this.
303
00:17:54,140 --> 00:17:57,141
You're fairly familiar with
the waters of resurrection bay.
304
00:17:57,243 --> 00:18:00,144
Yes, I am. Yes.
305
00:18:00,246 --> 00:18:02,180
And fairly familiar
with what happens
306
00:18:02,282 --> 00:18:06,084
Evidently to bodies
when they drown.
307
00:18:06,186 --> 00:18:08,553
Pulled a few bodies
out of the water
308
00:18:08,655 --> 00:18:10,288
Since I have been working
for the city.
309
00:18:10,423 --> 00:18:12,156
And how many would you say
you've searched for?
310
00:18:12,258 --> 00:18:13,791
I believe 16.
311
00:18:13,893 --> 00:18:15,993
What's been
your success rate?
312
00:18:16,096 --> 00:18:17,929
So we found everyone.
313
00:18:18,031 --> 00:18:19,997
I would say 100%.
314
00:18:20,100 --> 00:18:23,734
Man: Harbormaster,
seward harbormaster.
315
00:18:23,837 --> 00:18:25,770
You've always
found the bodies.
316
00:18:25,872 --> 00:18:29,006
Kristin snyder is the only body
that hasn't been found.
317
00:18:29,109 --> 00:18:30,808
Correct.
318
00:18:30,910 --> 00:18:36,414
?
319
00:18:36,516 --> 00:18:38,783
Narrator: In order to get
a better sense of the area,
320
00:18:38,885 --> 00:18:40,651
Frank parlato
has enlisted the help
321
00:18:40,753 --> 00:18:43,621
Of a local helicopter pilot,
a kayak expert,
322
00:18:43,756 --> 00:18:46,958
And the owners
of miller's landing.
323
00:18:47,060 --> 00:18:48,659
We are right here.
324
00:18:48,761 --> 00:18:52,597
This is seward and this
is resurrection bay.
325
00:18:52,699 --> 00:18:54,098
So the coastline here
326
00:18:54,167 --> 00:18:57,869
Is where typically people
go kayaking.
327
00:18:57,971 --> 00:19:02,306
[ speaking indistinctly
over radio ]
328
00:19:02,408 --> 00:19:08,946
?
329
00:19:09,048 --> 00:19:10,715
So we're approaching
another campground here
330
00:19:10,817 --> 00:19:12,617
On the right, there's
miller's landing right there.
331
00:19:12,719 --> 00:19:15,086
That's where the kayak
was taken from.
332
00:19:17,056 --> 00:19:19,390
Now, you know this land
around here, right, pretty well,
333
00:19:19,492 --> 00:19:21,993
'cause you've been here
since the '50s?
334
00:19:22,095 --> 00:19:26,063
Yeah.
This girl, kristin,
335
00:19:26,166 --> 00:19:29,967
Her vehicle was found here
with a suicide note.
336
00:19:30,069 --> 00:19:32,537
And a kayak
was missing from here.
337
00:19:32,639 --> 00:19:35,806
How did you happen to notice
that the kayak was missing?
338
00:19:35,909 --> 00:19:38,876
I do remember noticing
that the grass where the kayak
339
00:19:38,978 --> 00:19:42,180
Had been sitting,
it was laying there upside down.
340
00:19:42,282 --> 00:19:45,383
On the edge of the yard,
right next to the trees.
341
00:19:45,485 --> 00:19:46,951
It was obvious that
it was missing
342
00:19:47,053 --> 00:19:48,853
Because there was snow
everywhere else
343
00:19:48,955 --> 00:19:51,689
Except where the
kayak had been.
344
00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:55,459
Do you know a bit
about kayaks?
345
00:19:55,562 --> 00:19:57,828
Yeah. Not saying that
it didn't happen.
346
00:19:57,931 --> 00:20:00,464
I'm just saying
I don't -- in my experience,
347
00:20:00,567 --> 00:20:01,799
I've been doing
this for a long --
348
00:20:01,901 --> 00:20:03,901
I'm the old guy
here in town doing this.
349
00:20:04,003 --> 00:20:06,204
The whole story
doesn't make sense to me.
350
00:20:06,306 --> 00:20:09,473
How troubling is the fact
that nothing showed up?
351
00:20:09,576 --> 00:20:11,375
How odd is that, do you
think from your --
352
00:20:11,477 --> 00:20:13,911
Extremely odd.
Extremely odd.
353
00:20:14,013 --> 00:20:18,583
Something would have eventually
showed up in this bay.
354
00:20:18,685 --> 00:20:21,319
Piece of the kayak
or a paddle.
355
00:20:21,421 --> 00:20:22,787
Where's the paddle at?
356
00:20:22,889 --> 00:20:24,855
Paddles don't sink, right?
They're made not to sink.
357
00:20:24,958 --> 00:20:26,090
You don't want them to sink.
358
00:20:29,062 --> 00:20:32,029
Man: I could be at 2,000 feet
and I can see one kayak.
359
00:20:32,131 --> 00:20:35,566
There's no question that
if the kayak or even the paddle
360
00:20:35,668 --> 00:20:39,203
Was visible, if it was around
here, it could be seen?
361
00:20:39,305 --> 00:20:42,773
At first, when I heard
that she committed suicide
362
00:20:42,875 --> 00:20:46,477
My initial reaction was
I didn't believe it.
363
00:20:46,579 --> 00:20:48,779
What you can see
from here, this is why
364
00:20:48,881 --> 00:20:50,748
I really needed
to get up there.
365
00:20:50,850 --> 00:20:54,118
If there was a body visible
they would have seen it.
366
00:20:54,220 --> 00:20:59,390
?
367
00:20:59,492 --> 00:21:03,294
Narrator:
It's possible that kristin
snyder committed suicide.
368
00:21:03,396 --> 00:21:06,564
But after parlato's
investigation in alaska,
369
00:21:06,666 --> 00:21:08,766
He questions whether
she ended her life
370
00:21:08,868 --> 00:21:10,935
In resurrection bay.
371
00:21:11,037 --> 00:21:13,037
Some local testimonies claim
372
00:21:13,139 --> 00:21:16,040
That if snyder had killed
herself in those waters
373
00:21:16,142 --> 00:21:18,242
She would have left a trace.
374
00:21:18,344 --> 00:21:21,912
They would have found the kayak
or the paddle.
375
00:21:22,015 --> 00:21:24,382
With dozens of people
searching for her,
376
00:21:24,484 --> 00:21:27,551
Someone should have
turned up something.
377
00:21:27,654 --> 00:21:31,822
Frank parlato's investigation
shifts to motive.
378
00:21:31,924 --> 00:21:35,192
Snyder was last seen alive
at a nxivm class.
379
00:21:35,295 --> 00:21:37,628
He believes that those
who knew snyder
380
00:21:37,730 --> 00:21:41,065
Through the nxivm courses
may know more.
381
00:21:41,167 --> 00:21:47,238
?
382
00:21:54,013 --> 00:21:58,316
?
383
00:21:58,418 --> 00:22:01,018
Narrator: Kristin snyder left
a nxivm training course
384
00:22:01,120 --> 00:22:05,022
In anchorage, alaska,
on February 6, 2003,
385
00:22:05,124 --> 00:22:07,692
Never to be seen again.
386
00:22:07,794 --> 00:22:10,928
Friends and colleagues
describe snyder as an active,
387
00:22:11,030 --> 00:22:13,731
Happy, and prominent
member of her community
388
00:22:13,833 --> 00:22:16,067
So they find it odd
that she would suddenly leave
389
00:22:16,169 --> 00:22:19,503
The nxivm course,
make it 2-1/2-hour,
390
00:22:19,605 --> 00:22:24,075
127-mile drive to seward,
alaska, and kill herself
391
00:22:24,177 --> 00:22:27,378
By capsizing a kayak
in the middle of the night.
392
00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:29,947
The only piece of physical
evidence that links
393
00:22:30,049 --> 00:22:34,985
Snyder's death to a suicide is
the note found in her truck.
394
00:22:35,088 --> 00:22:39,123
The kayak and her body
have never been found.
395
00:22:39,225 --> 00:22:42,827
Equally strange,
in January 2003,
396
00:22:42,929 --> 00:22:46,831
Just weeks before kristin snyder
disappeared in alaska
397
00:22:46,933 --> 00:22:49,834
She took an unexpected trip
to albany, new york,
398
00:22:49,936 --> 00:22:52,503
The headquarters of nxivm.
399
00:22:52,605 --> 00:22:58,809
?
400
00:22:58,911 --> 00:23:02,012
Parlato: I'm here to meet up
with susan dones.
401
00:23:02,115 --> 00:23:04,181
For eight years of her life
she was a head trainer
402
00:23:04,283 --> 00:23:07,385
For nxivm in tacoma, washington.
403
00:23:07,487 --> 00:23:10,121
Being a friend
of kristin snyder's
404
00:23:10,223 --> 00:23:13,090
And deeply involved in nxivm,
405
00:23:13,192 --> 00:23:15,693
Susan might be able
to explain to me
406
00:23:15,795 --> 00:23:18,863
If anyone would want
kristin snyder dead.
407
00:23:22,902 --> 00:23:25,669
Going back to
January 2003.
408
00:23:25,772 --> 00:23:28,773
She was in albany.
You absolutely saw her.
409
00:23:28,875 --> 00:23:30,374
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah.
410
00:23:30,476 --> 00:23:31,742
And we chatted.
411
00:23:31,844 --> 00:23:34,145
She wanted to see
the albany center.
412
00:23:34,247 --> 00:23:36,414
Did she seem to you
to be happy?
413
00:23:36,516 --> 00:23:38,582
Yeah.
414
00:23:38,684 --> 00:23:41,719
Was she acting at all
psychotic, fearful, paranoid,
415
00:23:41,821 --> 00:23:43,621
Crazy, anything?
No.
416
00:23:43,723 --> 00:23:46,357
I never saw her that way.
417
00:23:46,459 --> 00:23:48,192
Did she ever meet
keith raniere?
418
00:23:48,294 --> 00:23:50,161
And could she have done
that, do you think?
419
00:23:50,263 --> 00:23:51,862
Yeah, absolutely.
420
00:23:51,964 --> 00:23:54,064
My suspicion is, is that
421
00:23:54,167 --> 00:23:58,135
He might have even
had sex with her.
422
00:23:58,237 --> 00:24:01,572
The other thing is, is
that keith did not
423
00:24:01,674 --> 00:24:03,474
Like women being lesbians.
424
00:24:03,576 --> 00:24:05,342
He did not like women
being lesbians?
425
00:24:05,445 --> 00:24:07,678
No.
Being gay, period,
426
00:24:07,780 --> 00:24:11,916
Was an act of defiance,
especially if you're a woman.
427
00:24:12,018 --> 00:24:15,019
It was an act of defiance,
and I think, for him,
428
00:24:15,121 --> 00:24:18,823
Because he treated women
as objects,
429
00:24:18,925 --> 00:24:24,929
If you're a lesbian then
you're not available to him.
430
00:24:25,031 --> 00:24:29,166
So could he possibly
try to turn her?
431
00:24:29,268 --> 00:24:32,303
You know, it's kind of
like a notch on his belt.
432
00:24:32,405 --> 00:24:34,872
If she was manipulated
somehow into having
433
00:24:34,974 --> 00:24:37,842
Some kind of sexual relationship
with him
434
00:24:37,944 --> 00:24:43,881
We know that this is a guy that
will do evil things to women.
435
00:24:43,983 --> 00:24:45,783
Here's a quick
side question.
436
00:24:45,885 --> 00:24:48,886
Were you there when you said
"I've had people killed"?
437
00:24:48,988 --> 00:24:51,755
I wasn't actually there that
day, but that's my video.
438
00:24:53,526 --> 00:24:57,428
Narrator: In 2009, susan
lent a friend a camera
439
00:24:57,530 --> 00:25:00,898
To record a private conversation
in albany, new york,
440
00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:06,203
Between keith raniere and other
high-ranking nxivm members.
441
00:25:06,305 --> 00:25:11,509
You have accused, at times,
people of ganging up --
442
00:25:11,611 --> 00:25:13,577
Collaborative
ganging up on you.
443
00:25:13,679 --> 00:25:15,880
In some ways the
company isn't as bad --
444
00:25:15,982 --> 00:25:18,749
Or it wasn't
as bad a situation
445
00:25:18,851 --> 00:25:22,887
As you thought it was.
Okay.
446
00:25:22,989 --> 00:25:25,322
But I believe that the way
this was done
447
00:25:25,424 --> 00:25:27,758
Will destroy
the company itself
448
00:25:27,860 --> 00:25:31,362
And it did not have to,
which is the conundrum.
449
00:25:31,464 --> 00:25:34,331
Here's the thing.
450
00:25:34,433 --> 00:25:36,734
I've been shot at
because of my beliefs.
451
00:25:36,836 --> 00:25:39,970
I've had to make choices --
should I have bodyguards,
452
00:25:40,072 --> 00:25:41,672
Should I have them
armed or not.
453
00:25:41,774 --> 00:25:43,974
Right.
454
00:25:44,076 --> 00:25:47,244
I've had people killed
because of my beliefs.
455
00:25:47,346 --> 00:25:58,188
?
456
00:25:58,291 --> 00:26:00,858
Parlato: Was raniere
exaggerating when he claimed
457
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:02,393
He had people killed?
458
00:26:02,495 --> 00:26:07,998
Or was he somehow involved
in kristin snyder's death?
459
00:26:08,100 --> 00:26:11,669
Keith raniere positioned
himself as a celibate monk.
460
00:26:11,771 --> 00:26:15,339
He was beginning
to attract wealthy followers.
461
00:26:15,441 --> 00:26:17,775
If it got out that he wasn't
a celibate monk
462
00:26:17,877 --> 00:26:21,912
And that he was even
trying to convert a lesbian
463
00:26:22,014 --> 00:26:24,281
To having sex with him,
464
00:26:24,383 --> 00:26:27,184
This would have imploded
his whole operation.
465
00:26:27,286 --> 00:26:35,793
?
466
00:26:35,895 --> 00:26:38,662
Nxivm routinely hired
private investigators
467
00:26:38,764 --> 00:26:43,033
To look into anyone
who criticized keith raniere.
468
00:26:43,135 --> 00:26:44,935
One of the things
I'd like to do --
469
00:26:45,037 --> 00:26:48,238
There's a guy named joe o'hara,
and he was working for nxivm
470
00:26:48,341 --> 00:26:51,542
When they began
their internal investigation
471
00:26:51,644 --> 00:26:54,144
Into the disappearance
of kristin snyder.
472
00:26:54,246 --> 00:26:57,681
But strangely, nxivm did not
begin their investigation
473
00:26:57,783 --> 00:26:59,917
Into the disappearance
of kristin snyder
474
00:27:00,019 --> 00:27:03,954
Until one year
after she disappeared.
475
00:27:04,056 --> 00:27:05,923
O'hara: He didn't do anything
for a year, frank.
476
00:27:06,025 --> 00:27:07,958
It was only when
the story came up.
477
00:27:08,060 --> 00:27:10,260
That's the other thing
that's suspicious.
478
00:27:10,363 --> 00:27:12,863
If he was worried
about the fact that
479
00:27:12,965 --> 00:27:17,801
Her suicide was a fake, why not
investigate it when it happened?
480
00:27:17,903 --> 00:27:19,303
Why wait a year?
481
00:27:19,405 --> 00:27:22,039
Why wait a year, indeed.
Why wait a year?
482
00:27:22,141 --> 00:27:23,874
Why would you wait a year?
483
00:27:23,976 --> 00:27:26,744
Because the story
hadn't hit the press.
484
00:27:30,249 --> 00:27:32,316
If you want to find out
what happened
485
00:27:32,418 --> 00:27:33,984
You investigate
as soon as possible
486
00:27:34,086 --> 00:27:34,952
After something
like this.
487
00:27:35,054 --> 00:27:36,353
Okay, so that's a really
big point.
488
00:27:36,455 --> 00:27:39,623
That's a big point.
I mean, another possibility --
489
00:27:39,725 --> 00:27:42,559
A distinct possibility,
she's still alive.
490
00:27:42,695 --> 00:27:45,095
That, you know,
491
00:27:45,197 --> 00:27:46,997
There's no body,
there's no proof she's dead.
492
00:27:47,099 --> 00:27:51,368
There's never been any way
to know that she really is dead.
493
00:27:51,470 --> 00:27:54,438
She could have committed suicide
a different way.
494
00:27:54,540 --> 00:27:58,308
She could have been
an assisted suicide.
495
00:27:58,411 --> 00:28:02,346
We know so much more
about raniere in 2019
496
00:28:02,448 --> 00:28:04,915
Than we did in 2005.
497
00:28:05,017 --> 00:28:06,850
We've learned a lot more
about him.
498
00:28:06,952 --> 00:28:08,485
He's not a monk.
He wasn't a monk.
499
00:28:08,587 --> 00:28:12,256
He wasn't a monk
and he's capable of
500
00:28:12,358 --> 00:28:15,359
Very harmful behavior.
501
00:28:15,461 --> 00:28:17,761
What would your advice be?
Where should I go from here?
502
00:28:17,863 --> 00:28:21,732
So now, you have to go back
and look at every story
503
00:28:21,834 --> 00:28:24,201
And reassess it.
504
00:28:24,303 --> 00:28:26,270
Because now we know
more about him.
505
00:28:26,372 --> 00:28:29,006
Did you ever hear the name
gina hutchinson?
506
00:28:29,108 --> 00:28:31,909
Yeah.
It was another another story
507
00:28:32,011 --> 00:28:35,112
That I heard a little about
during the 15 months
508
00:28:35,214 --> 00:28:36,647
I worked there.
509
00:28:36,749 --> 00:28:43,721
?
510
00:28:43,823 --> 00:28:46,290
Again a suicide.
511
00:28:46,392 --> 00:28:48,459
An unusual suicide.
512
00:28:48,561 --> 00:28:50,394
What was unusual about it?
513
00:28:50,496 --> 00:28:51,929
It's very unusual
that women
514
00:28:52,031 --> 00:28:55,899
Use a 20-gauge shotgun
to commit suicide.
515
00:28:57,269 --> 00:28:58,802
Narrator: In 2002,
516
00:28:58,904 --> 00:29:01,238
Keith raniere was trying
to gain the trust
517
00:29:01,340 --> 00:29:03,340
Of sara and clare bronfman --
518
00:29:03,442 --> 00:29:06,410
Heirs to the seagrams fortune.
519
00:29:06,512 --> 00:29:07,878
During that same time,
520
00:29:07,980 --> 00:29:10,147
Gina hutchinson began
publicly alleging
521
00:29:10,249 --> 00:29:11,715
That keith raped her
522
00:29:11,817 --> 00:29:14,618
When she was only 14 years old.
523
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:17,221
?
524
00:29:17,323 --> 00:29:18,789
Frank believes raniere feared
525
00:29:18,891 --> 00:29:20,758
If sara and clare heard about
526
00:29:20,860 --> 00:29:23,861
The alleged statutory rape
of gina hutchinson,
527
00:29:23,963 --> 00:29:27,164
They would not financially
invest in his business.
528
00:29:27,266 --> 00:29:30,434
?
529
00:29:30,536 --> 00:29:32,536
In October 2002,
530
00:29:32,638 --> 00:29:34,872
Gina hutchinson's body
was found on the grounds
531
00:29:34,974 --> 00:29:36,406
Of a buddhist monastery
532
00:29:36,509 --> 00:29:38,175
In woodstock, new york --
533
00:29:38,277 --> 00:29:39,910
An hour and a half drive
534
00:29:40,012 --> 00:29:42,913
From nxivm's headquarters
in albany.
535
00:29:43,015 --> 00:29:49,753
?
536
00:29:49,855 --> 00:29:52,990
We're going to the scene
537
00:29:53,092 --> 00:29:57,427
Where gina hutchinson's body
was found.
538
00:29:57,530 --> 00:30:00,497
Gina had a spiritual attachment
539
00:30:00,599 --> 00:30:02,633
To this monastery
540
00:30:02,735 --> 00:30:03,901
And to buddhism.
541
00:30:04,003 --> 00:30:07,104
The story goes that
gina hutchinson
542
00:30:07,206 --> 00:30:08,906
Bought herself a gun,
543
00:30:09,008 --> 00:30:11,875
Went to the property that
we're there were about to go to,
544
00:30:11,977 --> 00:30:14,111
And shot herself in the head.
545
00:30:14,246 --> 00:30:20,584
?
546
00:30:20,686 --> 00:30:27,024
?
547
00:30:27,126 --> 00:30:29,226
This is the death scene.
548
00:30:29,328 --> 00:30:31,829
17 years ago.
549
00:30:31,931 --> 00:30:37,835
?
550
00:30:37,937 --> 00:30:38,869
At the time,
551
00:30:38,971 --> 00:30:42,005
Police concluded
that it was a suicide,
552
00:30:42,107 --> 00:30:44,508
When, perhaps,
it may not have been.
553
00:30:44,610 --> 00:30:51,114
?
554
00:30:51,217 --> 00:30:52,749
Did she bring herself here?
555
00:30:52,852 --> 00:30:54,184
Was this her doing?
556
00:30:54,286 --> 00:31:01,124
?
557
00:31:01,227 --> 00:31:04,261
Hutchinson: Gina hutchinson,
she was my sister.
558
00:31:04,363 --> 00:31:05,963
Gina was always special.
559
00:31:06,065 --> 00:31:08,966
She was always
super intelligent,
560
00:31:09,068 --> 00:31:10,367
Very sensitive.
561
00:31:10,469 --> 00:31:13,070
She always brought in
stray animals
562
00:31:13,172 --> 00:31:15,072
And was always very caring
563
00:31:15,174 --> 00:31:17,875
And compassionate.
564
00:31:17,977 --> 00:31:20,978
She was 33 when she died.
565
00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:23,113
It's all very suspicious.
566
00:31:23,215 --> 00:31:25,349
She was a very gentle soul.
567
00:31:25,451 --> 00:31:28,785
For her to even be that violent,
568
00:31:28,888 --> 00:31:30,654
To choose a method that violent,
569
00:31:30,756 --> 00:31:32,155
That concerns me.
570
00:31:32,258 --> 00:31:34,124
?
571
00:31:34,226 --> 00:31:35,792
I met keith
572
00:31:35,895 --> 00:31:37,861
The night that I found him
573
00:31:37,963 --> 00:31:39,529
In bed with gina.
574
00:31:39,632 --> 00:31:41,198
?
575
00:31:41,300 --> 00:31:44,268
Gina was just a baby.
576
00:31:44,370 --> 00:31:47,704
I heard a noise
in gina's bedroom.
577
00:31:47,806 --> 00:31:50,474
You know,
I went down and opened the door.
578
00:31:50,576 --> 00:31:51,909
And remember
the christmas lights
579
00:31:52,011 --> 00:31:55,512
From the tree flashing on the --
580
00:31:55,614 --> 00:31:57,447
The room was kind of dark,
581
00:31:57,549 --> 00:32:00,550
And I see this male figure
582
00:32:00,653 --> 00:32:02,786
Trying to escape out the window.
583
00:32:02,888 --> 00:32:09,059
?
584
00:32:16,735 --> 00:32:22,239
?
585
00:32:22,341 --> 00:32:23,907
Narrator: In 1983,
586
00:32:24,009 --> 00:32:26,076
Gina hutchinson was a spiritual
587
00:32:26,178 --> 00:32:27,711
Sensitive teenager.
588
00:32:27,813 --> 00:32:29,112
She met keith raniere
589
00:32:29,214 --> 00:32:30,547
When she was attending
eighth grade
590
00:32:30,649 --> 00:32:32,149
In albany, new york,
591
00:32:32,251 --> 00:32:33,383
Where raniere was living
592
00:32:33,485 --> 00:32:35,319
And running
a marketing business,
593
00:32:35,421 --> 00:32:38,422
The precursor to nxivm.
594
00:32:38,524 --> 00:32:40,424
Not long after they met,
595
00:32:40,526 --> 00:32:42,259
Gina's sister allegedly
596
00:32:42,361 --> 00:32:45,896
Caught raniere climbing out
of gina's bedroom window
597
00:32:45,998 --> 00:32:49,132
In the middle of the night.
598
00:32:49,234 --> 00:32:51,435
I don't think when
I caught him in bed together
599
00:32:51,537 --> 00:32:54,805
It was even the first time
600
00:32:54,907 --> 00:32:57,207
That they'd had sex.
601
00:32:57,309 --> 00:32:59,977
And I think the first thing
she said was, "don't tell mom.
602
00:33:00,079 --> 00:33:01,044
Don't tell mom.
603
00:33:01,146 --> 00:33:04,614
Promise,
you're not gonna tell mom."
604
00:33:04,717 --> 00:33:07,718
She wasn't quite forthcoming
right away.
605
00:33:07,820 --> 00:33:09,252
Eventually, she told me
606
00:33:09,355 --> 00:33:11,488
That she was
having sex with him.
607
00:33:11,623 --> 00:33:15,025
And that he'd talked her
into it.
608
00:33:15,127 --> 00:33:18,895
She was emotionally vulnerable.
609
00:33:18,998 --> 00:33:20,697
What 14 year old
610
00:33:20,799 --> 00:33:23,900
Isn't emotionally vulnerable?
611
00:33:24,003 --> 00:33:26,603
He was preying basically
612
00:33:26,705 --> 00:33:30,140
On all the girls
in the community.
613
00:33:30,242 --> 00:33:31,174
He had a plan.
614
00:33:31,276 --> 00:33:36,046
His plan was to become
a mentor figure,
615
00:33:36,148 --> 00:33:37,914
You know, a teacher
616
00:33:38,017 --> 00:33:41,184
Of these young kids.
617
00:33:41,286 --> 00:33:43,120
Raniere:
Often when you counseled people
618
00:33:43,255 --> 00:33:46,723
Who were, say, children
of what you call abuse --
619
00:33:46,825 --> 00:33:49,059
You know, the little child --
620
00:33:49,161 --> 00:33:51,995
Some little children
are perfectly happy with it
621
00:33:52,097 --> 00:33:54,631
Until they find out
what happened later in life,
622
00:33:54,733 --> 00:33:57,901
And then it's more society
that abuses them
623
00:33:58,003 --> 00:33:59,936
Than, actually, the parent.
624
00:34:00,039 --> 00:34:01,638
Glazer: He's like
the spider in the web,
625
00:34:01,740 --> 00:34:03,707
Pulling people in.
626
00:34:03,809 --> 00:34:06,243
Raniere used to love
giving examples,
627
00:34:06,345 --> 00:34:08,445
Like having sex with children.
628
00:34:08,547 --> 00:34:11,348
"why shouldn't grownups be able
to have sex with children?
629
00:34:11,450 --> 00:34:14,284
Why is the age of consent
16, 17, 18?
630
00:34:14,386 --> 00:34:15,819
Why can't it be 12?"
631
00:34:15,954 --> 00:34:18,455
In other societies in the past,
632
00:34:18,557 --> 00:34:20,190
Like in rome or whatever,
633
00:34:20,292 --> 00:34:22,325
The standards were
completely different.
634
00:34:22,428 --> 00:34:24,327
Glazer: He's trying to
normalize certain things
635
00:34:24,430 --> 00:34:27,330
That he wants to be normalized
in his world.
636
00:34:27,433 --> 00:34:29,933
One of raniere's
longtime followers
637
00:34:30,035 --> 00:34:31,835
Sent an e-mail, in which,
638
00:34:31,937 --> 00:34:35,672
She told raniere,
"you can have my daughter."
639
00:34:35,774 --> 00:34:40,610
She was only 15 years old
at the time.
640
00:34:40,712 --> 00:34:43,413
That to me, like,
shook me to my core.
641
00:34:43,515 --> 00:34:44,915
Like...
642
00:34:45,017 --> 00:34:47,451
I've seen horror upon horror
upon horror in this case,
643
00:34:47,553 --> 00:34:48,552
But, for some reason,
644
00:34:48,654 --> 00:34:51,855
That took things
to a completely different level.
645
00:34:51,957 --> 00:35:01,498
?
646
00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:04,000
Hutchinson:
What would I say to her?
647
00:35:04,103 --> 00:35:07,070
?
648
00:35:07,172 --> 00:35:09,906
I would say I'm sorry.
649
00:35:10,008 --> 00:35:14,077
[ voice breaking ]
I would say...
650
00:35:14,179 --> 00:35:17,080
[ sniffles ]
651
00:35:17,182 --> 00:35:20,350
I am so sorry...
652
00:35:20,452 --> 00:35:24,254
That I let...
653
00:35:24,356 --> 00:35:26,323
Once he went out that window
654
00:35:26,425 --> 00:35:29,126
That first night...
655
00:35:29,228 --> 00:35:31,461
He should have
never come back in.
656
00:35:31,563 --> 00:35:34,331
I should have slammed
that window shut.
657
00:35:34,433 --> 00:35:37,901
He should have never been
let back in her life.
658
00:35:37,970 --> 00:35:40,937
You know,
I just didn't recognize him
659
00:35:41,039 --> 00:35:43,473
For the monster that he is.
660
00:35:43,575 --> 00:35:45,142
?
661
00:35:45,244 --> 00:35:48,545
Keith raniere
has even said...
662
00:35:48,647 --> 00:35:51,648
I've had people killed
for my beliefs,
663
00:35:51,750 --> 00:35:53,617
Or theirs.
664
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:57,787
?
665
00:35:57,856 --> 00:35:59,022
In my opinion,
666
00:35:59,124 --> 00:36:02,826
If gina hutchinson
publicly accused keith raniere
667
00:36:02,928 --> 00:36:04,861
Or if it became publicly known
668
00:36:04,963 --> 00:36:09,833
That he was a rapist,
a statutory rapist,
669
00:36:09,935 --> 00:36:11,902
His organization would
have been destroyed.
670
00:36:12,004 --> 00:36:14,604
In my opinion,
he was a sex addict.
671
00:36:14,740 --> 00:36:16,206
He was a perv.
672
00:36:16,308 --> 00:36:18,141
He was a psychopath,
673
00:36:18,243 --> 00:36:21,578
And gina hutchinson
was the one woman
674
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:23,980
That could expose him
675
00:36:24,082 --> 00:36:27,184
As the fraud that he was.
676
00:36:27,286 --> 00:36:35,892
?
677
00:36:35,994 --> 00:36:38,528
Raniere: Materialism
and satiation
678
00:36:38,630 --> 00:36:40,697
Are abuses of power...
679
00:36:40,799 --> 00:36:42,599
In themselves.
680
00:36:42,701 --> 00:36:43,667
It's just a matter of finding
681
00:36:43,769 --> 00:36:45,869
Where that abuse is applied,
682
00:36:45,971 --> 00:36:48,338
Because it is
an immoral transaction.
683
00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:50,774
?
684
00:36:50,876 --> 00:36:54,411
When clare and sara bronfman
were recruited into nxivm,
685
00:36:54,513 --> 00:36:56,479
That was clearly
a pivotal moment
686
00:36:56,582 --> 00:36:59,015
For the organization.
687
00:36:59,117 --> 00:37:02,152
Rosales: The bronfman sisters
come from a very wealthy family.
688
00:37:02,254 --> 00:37:03,954
They're both the heiresses
689
00:37:04,056 --> 00:37:06,122
Of the bronfman liquor fortune.
690
00:37:06,225 --> 00:37:08,458
Without the money
of clare and sarah bronfman,
691
00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:10,961
I mean, the nxivm world
doesn't exist.
692
00:37:11,063 --> 00:37:13,296
?
693
00:37:13,398 --> 00:37:17,400
I was hired by nxivm in 2006.
694
00:37:17,502 --> 00:37:19,703
I lasted about four months.
695
00:37:19,805 --> 00:37:22,639
Raniere had, like,
a burning intensity,
696
00:37:22,741 --> 00:37:24,941
But, at the same time,
he was arrogant.
697
00:37:25,043 --> 00:37:26,343
He was haughty.
698
00:37:26,445 --> 00:37:28,612
He was a know-it-all.
699
00:37:28,714 --> 00:37:30,480
He liked to pontificate.
700
00:37:30,582 --> 00:37:33,350
He didn't want to hear
what anybody else had to say.
701
00:37:33,452 --> 00:37:35,552
I did think he was evil,
702
00:37:35,654 --> 00:37:39,022
But I thought he was just
financially corrupt.
703
00:37:39,124 --> 00:37:44,327
I specifically remember
that he got $66 million
704
00:37:44,429 --> 00:37:46,963
From the bronfman sisters'
trust fund.
705
00:37:47,065 --> 00:37:48,965
Ross: They believe that
the money was being used
706
00:37:49,067 --> 00:37:50,667
For some higher purpose,
707
00:37:50,769 --> 00:37:55,605
But keith raniere blew through
more than $100 million.
708
00:37:55,707 --> 00:37:56,973
All the buildings,
709
00:37:57,075 --> 00:37:59,909
The facilities, the jet travel,
the private speakers,
710
00:38:00,012 --> 00:38:01,978
All that costs lots of money
711
00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:03,413
Lalich: Having that
amount of money,
712
00:38:03,515 --> 00:38:05,248
They could now buy off people.
713
00:38:05,384 --> 00:38:07,884
They could file lawsuits
against people --
714
00:38:07,986 --> 00:38:09,586
Whatever it is he wanted to do.
715
00:38:09,688 --> 00:38:14,924
?
716
00:38:15,027 --> 00:38:18,061
Narrator: Gina hutchinson's
autopsy and police report
717
00:38:18,163 --> 00:38:21,364
Indicate that the 33 year old
committed suicide
718
00:38:21,466 --> 00:38:24,501
By placing the muzzle
of a 22-gauge shotgun
719
00:38:24,603 --> 00:38:25,669
In her mouth
720
00:38:25,804 --> 00:38:28,038
And pulling the trigger.
721
00:38:28,140 --> 00:38:29,906
Frank parlato wants to know
722
00:38:29,975 --> 00:38:32,309
If this
extraordinarily brutal act
723
00:38:32,411 --> 00:38:36,713
Is physically possible
for a woman of gina's build.
724
00:38:36,815 --> 00:38:39,115
With the help
of a ballistics expert.
725
00:38:39,217 --> 00:38:41,718
Parlato will,
to the best of his knowledge,
726
00:38:41,820 --> 00:38:43,553
Recreate the last moments
727
00:38:43,655 --> 00:38:45,488
Of gina hutchinson's life
728
00:38:45,590 --> 00:38:47,190
To look for any details
729
00:38:47,292 --> 00:38:49,693
The authorities may have missed.
730
00:38:49,795 --> 00:38:50,994
Parlato:
You've read the autopsy
731
00:38:51,096 --> 00:38:52,028
Report...
Bir: Yep.
732
00:38:52,130 --> 00:38:54,230
...And you read
the police report
733
00:38:54,333 --> 00:38:58,501
It was an apparent suicide
in woodstock.
734
00:38:58,637 --> 00:39:02,739
Did anything strike you
as possibly suspicious?
735
00:39:02,841 --> 00:39:04,674
Both reports went
with the assumption
736
00:39:04,776 --> 00:39:06,409
That it was a suicide.
737
00:39:06,511 --> 00:39:08,945
I think the one thing
that's a little disappointing
738
00:39:09,047 --> 00:39:12,382
Is the lack
of gunshot residue test on her,
739
00:39:12,484 --> 00:39:13,983
Because whenever
you fire a gun,
740
00:39:14,086 --> 00:39:16,219
You get gunshot residue
on your fingers.
741
00:39:16,321 --> 00:39:17,654
And had they swabbed
her fingers,
742
00:39:17,756 --> 00:39:19,155
We would know, for sure,
that she was the one
743
00:39:19,257 --> 00:39:20,924
That fired the gun.
744
00:39:21,026 --> 00:39:23,493
If foul play
was suspected,
745
00:39:23,595 --> 00:39:24,961
What other tests
746
00:39:25,063 --> 00:39:27,063
Do you think
they would have done?
747
00:39:27,165 --> 00:39:29,699
I don't think they did
a wide-scene investigation
748
00:39:29,801 --> 00:39:31,835
Because they assumed
it was a suicide.
749
00:39:31,937 --> 00:39:33,603
That goes back to,
when you have a theory
750
00:39:33,705 --> 00:39:35,105
And you just follow
that one path,
751
00:39:35,207 --> 00:39:36,539
You don't look
at these other things
752
00:39:36,641 --> 00:39:38,108
That might
come into play.
753
00:39:38,210 --> 00:39:39,442
So, they would have
looked, possibly,
754
00:39:39,577 --> 00:39:40,810
For footprints?
755
00:39:40,912 --> 00:39:42,545
Footprints.
756
00:39:42,647 --> 00:39:44,147
Yeah, definitely.
757
00:39:44,249 --> 00:39:45,348
They would have
looked to see,
758
00:39:45,450 --> 00:39:46,850
Was there any evidence
that the gun was
759
00:39:46,952 --> 00:39:48,685
Actually fired
in that location
760
00:39:48,787 --> 00:39:50,420
Versus another location,
761
00:39:50,522 --> 00:39:52,288
Which is why those
crime scene analyses
762
00:39:52,391 --> 00:39:55,392
Are so important
right when they happen.
763
00:39:55,494 --> 00:39:59,929
From what you know,
is it odd that a woman would
764
00:40:00,064 --> 00:40:04,167
Use a gun to commit suicide?
765
00:40:04,269 --> 00:40:05,568
This is kind of
a violent means
766
00:40:05,670 --> 00:40:07,737
For a woman
to commit suicide.
767
00:40:07,839 --> 00:40:10,106
We don't see it as often
as we do with men,
768
00:40:10,208 --> 00:40:12,776
Especially with
a shotgun, right?
769
00:40:12,878 --> 00:40:13,877
This is an example
of a shotgun.
770
00:40:13,979 --> 00:40:15,078
This isn't a real one.
771
00:40:15,180 --> 00:40:17,847
It's the same size.
Same size, same length.
772
00:40:17,949 --> 00:40:19,416
And, like I said,
the length is critical,
773
00:40:19,518 --> 00:40:20,817
'cause we have
to figure out
774
00:40:20,919 --> 00:40:21,985
Whether or not
she would be able
775
00:40:22,087 --> 00:40:25,922
To put this in her mouth
and pull the trigger.
776
00:40:26,024 --> 00:40:28,057
We have a nice person,
who's gonna help us out,
777
00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:30,527
In terms of
same height, same weight,
778
00:40:30,629 --> 00:40:32,996
Wearing similar clothing,
which is great,
779
00:40:33,098 --> 00:40:35,031
Because we really want
to kind of have this
780
00:40:35,133 --> 00:40:37,100
Be exactly
how it happened.
781
00:40:37,202 --> 00:40:42,806
?
782
00:40:42,908 --> 00:40:48,545
?
783
00:40:48,647 --> 00:40:49,946
It has to be
under the coat,
784
00:40:50,048 --> 00:40:51,548
Because that's what
she was wearing
785
00:40:51,650 --> 00:40:53,082
And how she was found.
786
00:40:53,185 --> 00:40:54,584
The gun in her jacket.
787
00:40:54,686 --> 00:40:57,220
?
788
00:40:57,355 --> 00:40:59,255
Can she do it?
789
00:40:59,357 --> 00:41:01,791
Bir: Like that.
790
00:41:01,893 --> 00:41:04,260
And then can you
reach the trigger?
791
00:41:04,362 --> 00:41:05,395
Unh-unh.
Unh-unh.
792
00:41:05,497 --> 00:41:07,964
You can't reach
the trigger.
793
00:41:08,066 --> 00:41:10,900
She could have used a twig
or a branch to do it.
794
00:41:11,002 --> 00:41:12,368
But...On her own,
795
00:41:12,471 --> 00:41:14,103
It doesn't seem
like she can really reach.
796
00:41:14,206 --> 00:41:15,371
It seems unlikely.
In this position.
797
00:41:15,474 --> 00:41:17,073
Yeah, in this position.
798
00:41:17,175 --> 00:41:19,576
Bir: We can go back.
We can try to recreate.
799
00:41:19,678 --> 00:41:22,145
We can speculate,
but you're right.
800
00:41:22,247 --> 00:41:24,347
At the end of the day,
we we don't really
801
00:41:24,449 --> 00:41:26,483
Have hard conclusions,
unfortunately.
802
00:41:26,585 --> 00:41:28,117
Yeah.
803
00:41:28,220 --> 00:41:34,724
?
804
00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:46,870
?
805
00:41:46,972 --> 00:41:48,705
Gina hutchinson was a minor
806
00:41:48,807 --> 00:41:51,674
When the 23 year old
keith raniere allegedly
807
00:41:51,776 --> 00:41:55,245
First had sex with her in 1983.
808
00:41:55,347 --> 00:41:57,881
He remained a dark influence
in her life
809
00:41:57,983 --> 00:42:00,416
Until she purportedly
committed suicide
810
00:42:00,519 --> 00:42:02,952
At the age of 33.
811
00:42:03,088 --> 00:42:04,954
If the police hadn't
immediately rule
812
00:42:05,056 --> 00:42:07,290
Gina hutchinson's death
a suicide.
813
00:42:07,392 --> 00:42:09,125
At the very least,
they could have
814
00:42:09,227 --> 00:42:10,660
Interviewed keith raniere,
815
00:42:10,762 --> 00:42:13,062
Who lived an hour and a half's
drive away
816
00:42:13,164 --> 00:42:14,297
In albany, new york.
817
00:42:14,399 --> 00:42:21,070
?
818
00:42:21,172 --> 00:42:23,773
Albany was nxivm's headquarters,
819
00:42:23,875 --> 00:42:27,610
And it's where many of raniere's
most devoted followers flocked
820
00:42:27,679 --> 00:42:29,779
To be near him.
821
00:42:29,881 --> 00:42:31,514
It's also the next stage
822
00:42:31,616 --> 00:42:34,617
Of frank parlato's
investigation.
823
00:42:34,719 --> 00:42:36,920
Parlato is here to
look into the deaths
824
00:42:37,022 --> 00:42:40,757
Of the final
two lost women of nxivm.
825
00:42:40,859 --> 00:42:44,327
63-year-old barbara jeske...
826
00:42:44,429 --> 00:42:47,764
And 57-year-old pamela cafritz.
827
00:42:47,866 --> 00:42:50,633
Both women lived
with keith raniere
828
00:42:50,735 --> 00:42:53,636
And were part
of his trusted inner circle.
829
00:42:53,738 --> 00:43:03,446
?
830
00:43:03,548 --> 00:43:06,649
Parlato: We are here at
the border of knox woods,
831
00:43:06,751 --> 00:43:08,217
The subdivision
832
00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:09,852
Where keith raniere lived
833
00:43:09,955 --> 00:43:12,889
For maybe 30 years of his life.
834
00:43:12,991 --> 00:43:16,993
And it was where
all of his followers came.
835
00:43:17,095 --> 00:43:19,996
It's where pam cafritz lived
the last days of her life
836
00:43:20,098 --> 00:43:25,635
And where barbara jeske lived
the last days of her life.
837
00:43:25,737 --> 00:43:28,805
We're here to see if we can
uncover any evidence
838
00:43:28,907 --> 00:43:31,774
Surrounding their deaths.
839
00:43:31,876 --> 00:43:34,310
Unlike gina hutchinson
and kristin snyder,
840
00:43:34,412 --> 00:43:37,580
These women did not die
by an apparent suicide.
841
00:43:37,682 --> 00:43:40,216
These women all developed
some sort of cancer.
842
00:43:40,318 --> 00:43:42,885
?
843
00:43:42,988 --> 00:43:45,288
Essentially, keith had
created an organization
844
00:43:45,423 --> 00:43:46,789
With an inner circle
845
00:43:46,891 --> 00:43:48,825
Of primarily women around him.
846
00:43:48,927 --> 00:43:51,494
?
847
00:43:51,596 --> 00:43:53,529
As it grew,
there were different people
848
00:43:53,665 --> 00:43:55,865
Who became part
of the inner circle
849
00:43:55,967 --> 00:43:59,268
And that inner circle
was people,
850
00:43:59,371 --> 00:44:02,872
To my knowledge,
that were sleeping with him.
851
00:44:02,974 --> 00:44:04,574
Stone: They all worked for him
852
00:44:04,676 --> 00:44:06,709
In some capacity.
853
00:44:06,811 --> 00:44:10,146
I saw complete mind control.
854
00:44:10,248 --> 00:44:13,483
I saw a total blind loyalty.
855
00:44:13,585 --> 00:44:15,184
Barb jeske was --
856
00:44:15,286 --> 00:44:17,520
She was more of an enroller
857
00:44:17,622 --> 00:44:19,656
And kept people in,
858
00:44:19,758 --> 00:44:23,159
In regards to going through
curriculum and stuff.
859
00:44:23,261 --> 00:44:26,596
Pam was keith's,
like, number one
860
00:44:26,698 --> 00:44:29,499
And lived with keith
the longest.
861
00:44:29,601 --> 00:44:32,769
Lyons: Some of the women who had
been involved with raniere
862
00:44:32,871 --> 00:44:34,203
Through the years
863
00:44:34,305 --> 00:44:36,205
Had some form of cancer
864
00:44:36,307 --> 00:44:39,342
And some of it fatal.
865
00:44:39,444 --> 00:44:43,546
Raniere was directing what sort
of treatment they could get.
866
00:44:43,648 --> 00:44:45,048
It was endangering these women,
867
00:44:45,150 --> 00:44:46,482
And may have, in some instances,
868
00:44:46,584 --> 00:44:47,817
Cost him their lives.
869
00:44:47,919 --> 00:44:50,553
?
870
00:44:50,655 --> 00:44:51,988
My name's cindy liberatore.
871
00:44:52,123 --> 00:44:54,590
My sister was barbara jeske.
872
00:44:54,693 --> 00:44:57,760
Barbara was very bubbly,
friendly.
873
00:44:57,862 --> 00:44:59,328
Everybody loved her.
874
00:44:59,431 --> 00:45:01,497
She taught a lot of the courses.
875
00:45:01,599 --> 00:45:04,467
She got a lot of people into it.
876
00:45:04,569 --> 00:45:07,904
She made keith a lot of money.
877
00:45:08,006 --> 00:45:09,205
I don't know where
that money went,
878
00:45:09,307 --> 00:45:12,675
But she made him a lot of money.
879
00:45:12,777 --> 00:45:15,144
In the end, she saw
the way it was spiraling,
880
00:45:15,246 --> 00:45:17,513
And she wanted out,
but by then, it was too late.
881
00:45:17,615 --> 00:45:19,115
She got the diagnosis.
882
00:45:21,152 --> 00:45:25,188
?
883
00:45:25,323 --> 00:45:26,756
Narrator: Keith raniere's
control
884
00:45:26,858 --> 00:45:28,891
Over the women
in his inner circle
885
00:45:28,993 --> 00:45:31,394
Did not stop with sex.
886
00:45:31,496 --> 00:45:33,596
According to former
nxivm members,
887
00:45:33,698 --> 00:45:35,364
When he got them pregnant,
888
00:45:35,467 --> 00:45:37,800
He instructed them
to have abortions.
889
00:45:37,902 --> 00:45:39,202
He also controlled their diet
890
00:45:39,304 --> 00:45:42,405
And medical treatments
when they fell ill.
891
00:45:42,507 --> 00:45:45,575
Frank parlato has arranged
to meet with a source,
892
00:45:45,677 --> 00:45:47,944
A former inner circle member
893
00:45:48,046 --> 00:45:50,980
At a house she shared
with keith raniere.
894
00:45:51,082 --> 00:45:53,249
Barbara jeske
and pamela cafritz
895
00:45:53,351 --> 00:45:54,717
Also lived here when they both
896
00:45:54,819 --> 00:45:58,488
Developed and died of cancer.
897
00:45:58,623 --> 00:46:01,357
The source has agreed
to meet with parlato
898
00:46:01,459 --> 00:46:04,994
On the condition
that she remain anonymous.
899
00:46:05,096 --> 00:46:09,398
?
900
00:46:09,501 --> 00:46:11,567
[ doorbell rings ]
901
00:46:11,669 --> 00:46:17,807
?
902
00:46:17,909 --> 00:46:20,576
Parlato: So, this is the home
of keith raniere?
903
00:46:20,678 --> 00:46:21,811
Woman:
[ distorted ] yes.
904
00:46:21,913 --> 00:46:28,985
?
905
00:46:29,087 --> 00:46:30,453
This was his headquarters,
right?
906
00:46:30,555 --> 00:46:31,754
Yes.
907
00:46:31,856 --> 00:46:34,390
Now, it's not
really a big house.
908
00:46:34,492 --> 00:46:36,159
No.
909
00:46:36,261 --> 00:46:38,494
So when did you move in here?
910
00:46:38,596 --> 00:46:40,396
In 1988.
911
00:46:40,498 --> 00:46:42,765
Woman: Pam moved in
within a year or so.
912
00:46:42,867 --> 00:46:44,300
Parlato:
And then barbara jeske --
913
00:46:44,402 --> 00:46:45,835
When did she start
living here?
914
00:46:45,937 --> 00:46:48,204
So, that would have
been like early '90s.
915
00:46:48,306 --> 00:46:50,106
It's a bit more of a mess
up here.
916
00:46:50,208 --> 00:46:56,112
?
917
00:46:56,214 --> 00:46:58,514
Pamela lived in
this room.
918
00:46:58,616 --> 00:47:01,384
?
919
00:47:01,486 --> 00:47:03,820
This is the master bedroom,
right?
920
00:47:03,922 --> 00:47:05,988
This was
his and my room.
921
00:47:06,124 --> 00:47:09,192
?
922
00:47:09,294 --> 00:47:12,195
We have obscured
your identity,
923
00:47:12,297 --> 00:47:16,098
Not mentioned your name.
924
00:47:16,201 --> 00:47:17,733
I asked that I not
be identified
925
00:47:17,836 --> 00:47:19,135
For a couple reasons.
926
00:47:19,237 --> 00:47:20,703
There is the people
that are still
927
00:47:20,805 --> 00:47:22,171
Followers of keith.
928
00:47:22,273 --> 00:47:23,506
So there's some danger.
There's some danger there.
929
00:47:23,608 --> 00:47:24,807
And I've talked to people
who have been
930
00:47:24,909 --> 00:47:27,476
Afraid for their lives
even, you know?
931
00:47:27,579 --> 00:47:29,312
Um...
932
00:47:30,949 --> 00:47:35,618
I obviously know
enough of what went on with him
933
00:47:35,720 --> 00:47:37,653
That I think I would be
a danger to them,
934
00:47:37,755 --> 00:47:41,057
Which makes them
a danger to me.
935
00:47:41,159 --> 00:47:42,391
Let's talk about pam
for a minute.
936
00:47:42,493 --> 00:47:43,726
Did you know pam?
937
00:47:43,828 --> 00:47:44,861
Yes.
938
00:47:44,963 --> 00:47:46,729
Pam cafritz...
939
00:47:46,831 --> 00:47:47,964
Could be very sweet,
940
00:47:48,066 --> 00:47:49,699
Very funny,
941
00:47:49,801 --> 00:47:51,834
Uninhibited,
942
00:47:51,936 --> 00:47:54,237
I guess is a nice way
of putting it
943
00:47:54,339 --> 00:47:55,504
But she lived with keith.
944
00:47:55,607 --> 00:47:57,440
Yes.
945
00:47:57,542 --> 00:47:59,909
Do you have
any reason to suspect
946
00:48:00,011 --> 00:48:01,510
Anything suspicious
947
00:48:01,613 --> 00:48:04,447
About pam's death?
948
00:48:04,549 --> 00:48:06,682
?
949
00:48:06,784 --> 00:48:07,950
There was a lot of cancer
950
00:48:08,052 --> 00:48:10,720
In that group of people
who lived together.
951
00:48:10,822 --> 00:48:13,856
?
952
00:48:13,958 --> 00:48:17,159
Pamela had kidney cancer.
953
00:48:17,262 --> 00:48:19,695
Barbara jeske
had brain cancer.
954
00:48:19,797 --> 00:48:22,064
Kristen keeffe had
cervical cancer.
955
00:48:22,166 --> 00:48:25,635
So, there was just a cluster
of cancer going on there.
956
00:48:25,737 --> 00:48:28,437
That seemed suspicious.
957
00:48:28,539 --> 00:48:33,743
Do you know
if pamela had a well?
958
00:48:33,845 --> 00:48:35,311
I had heard
that she did.
959
00:48:35,413 --> 00:48:40,116
Do you know who the executor
of pam cafritz's will was?
960
00:48:40,218 --> 00:48:42,184
Believe it was
keith raniere.
961
00:48:42,287 --> 00:48:45,821
?
962
00:48:45,924 --> 00:48:47,924
Is there any chance that keith
might have tried
963
00:48:48,026 --> 00:48:50,960
To poison you and pam
and barbara,
964
00:48:51,062 --> 00:48:52,795
And then found
a way to do it.
965
00:48:52,897 --> 00:48:55,231
That's a rough question.
966
00:48:55,333 --> 00:48:56,765
You asked me that
a year ago,
967
00:48:56,834 --> 00:48:59,235
I would have said
that's outrageous, ridiculous.
968
00:48:59,337 --> 00:49:03,172
It's against everything
he stands for.
969
00:49:03,274 --> 00:49:05,141
But after everything
we've seen this year,
970
00:49:05,243 --> 00:49:06,642
Anything's possible
971
00:49:06,744 --> 00:49:08,744
Narrator:
After parlato's interview,
972
00:49:08,846 --> 00:49:11,514
The nxivm source reveals
that she kept a lock of hair
973
00:49:11,616 --> 00:49:14,083
From the time she had cancer.
974
00:49:14,185 --> 00:49:16,986
She provides the filmmakers
with the hair sample
975
00:49:17,088 --> 00:49:20,389
In the hopes that it may help
inform parlato's investigation.
976
00:49:20,491 --> 00:49:24,560
?
977
00:49:24,662 --> 00:49:25,695
This is the hair.
978
00:49:25,797 --> 00:49:26,896
This is my hair.
979
00:49:26,998 --> 00:49:28,230
I had my hair
down to my waist
980
00:49:28,333 --> 00:49:30,333
Since I was --
since I met keith.
981
00:49:30,435 --> 00:49:32,401
And so when I finally
got him to agree
982
00:49:32,503 --> 00:49:33,703
To let me cut it,
983
00:49:33,805 --> 00:49:37,106
It was a big deal,
so I saved the tail.
984
00:49:37,208 --> 00:49:40,009
'cause that hair
could be key for us.
985
00:49:40,111 --> 00:49:47,583
?
986
00:49:47,685 --> 00:49:51,320
Narrator: Frank parlato needs to
get the hair sample tested.
987
00:49:51,422 --> 00:49:54,890
?
988
00:49:54,993 --> 00:49:57,193
What I'm gonna do now
is call jason kolowski.
989
00:49:57,295 --> 00:49:59,795
He is a forensic scientist
990
00:49:59,897 --> 00:50:02,965
Who may be able to at least
answer a question or two
991
00:50:03,067 --> 00:50:06,402
About whether or not
992
00:50:06,504 --> 00:50:09,605
An individual may be able
993
00:50:09,707 --> 00:50:13,275
To get another person
to contract cancer.
994
00:50:13,378 --> 00:50:16,412
[ line rings ]
995
00:50:16,514 --> 00:50:17,580
Hello.
This is jason.
996
00:50:17,682 --> 00:50:20,549
Hey, jason.
This is frank parlato calling.
997
00:50:20,651 --> 00:50:22,518
Raniere was a fanatic.
998
00:50:22,620 --> 00:50:23,686
In many ways,
999
00:50:23,788 --> 00:50:29,525
And one of his fanaticisms
was that hair represented
1000
00:50:29,627 --> 00:50:32,528
An essential aspect
of a woman's persona.
1001
00:50:32,630 --> 00:50:35,064
And he did not
normally permit them
1002
00:50:35,133 --> 00:50:37,600
To ever cut their hair.
Okay.
1003
00:50:37,702 --> 00:50:38,868
If they did
cut their hair,
1004
00:50:38,970 --> 00:50:40,202
For whatever reason,
1005
00:50:40,304 --> 00:50:43,506
He would require them
to store that hair
1006
00:50:43,608 --> 00:50:45,508
To keep it and preserve it.
1007
00:50:45,610 --> 00:50:47,710
One of the women
who survived,
1008
00:50:47,812 --> 00:50:51,347
The one that had
the bladder cancer,
1009
00:50:51,482 --> 00:50:54,083
Had some of her hair
from that period.
1010
00:50:54,185 --> 00:50:56,352
Now this would go back
several years,
1011
00:50:56,454 --> 00:50:58,154
But would there be anything
in the hair
1012
00:50:58,256 --> 00:51:02,458
That might permit us
to make any kind of a test?
1013
00:51:02,560 --> 00:51:04,593
Absolutely. Yeah.
1014
00:51:04,695 --> 00:51:06,796
Hair is --
oh, my gosh.
1015
00:51:06,898 --> 00:51:12,101
It's a phenomenal time capsule
for toxic exposure,
1016
00:51:12,203 --> 00:51:14,203
Environmental exposures.
1017
00:51:14,305 --> 00:51:16,772
So if she cut
a portion of some hair off
1018
00:51:16,874 --> 00:51:18,674
And saved it during a time
1019
00:51:18,776 --> 00:51:20,476
Maybe when
she was exposed
1020
00:51:20,578 --> 00:51:22,812
Or even during the time
that she had cancer.
1021
00:51:22,914 --> 00:51:26,048
You definitely could
test that hair,
1022
00:51:26,150 --> 00:51:29,752
And you'll see
what you could find.
1023
00:51:29,854 --> 00:51:37,026
?
1024
00:51:37,128 --> 00:51:38,961
We sent the hair sample
that we got
1025
00:51:39,063 --> 00:51:42,198
From a inner circle member
of keith raniere's
1026
00:51:42,300 --> 00:51:45,134
To a forensic scientist.
1027
00:51:45,236 --> 00:51:46,302
He's been running some tests
1028
00:51:46,404 --> 00:51:49,004
To find out if there was
anything in her system
1029
00:51:49,107 --> 00:51:51,140
When she was living
with barbara jeske,
1030
00:51:51,242 --> 00:51:54,443
Pam cafritz,
and keith raniere.
1031
00:51:54,545 --> 00:51:56,479
As far fetched as it sounds,
1032
00:51:56,581 --> 00:51:57,646
It is strange to me
1033
00:51:57,748 --> 00:51:59,915
That four women living
with keith raniere
1034
00:52:00,017 --> 00:52:01,750
Should all come down
with cancer.
1035
00:52:01,853 --> 00:52:03,986
Kolowski: Come on in.
1036
00:52:04,088 --> 00:52:06,055
Please have a seat.
1037
00:52:06,157 --> 00:52:09,758
A lot of what I'm working on
would be missing persons cases,
1038
00:52:09,861 --> 00:52:12,328
Advising laboratories
on cases
1039
00:52:12,430 --> 00:52:15,831
That they're working on --
cold cases, things like that.
1040
00:52:15,933 --> 00:52:17,133
Kolowski: In this case,
we have something
1041
00:52:17,235 --> 00:52:18,300
A little bit different.
1042
00:52:18,402 --> 00:52:20,603
We received that hair sample
from you,
1043
00:52:20,705 --> 00:52:24,140
And we had an opportunity to go
and get it tested.
1044
00:52:24,242 --> 00:52:25,407
And with that,
1045
00:52:25,510 --> 00:52:27,543
I was able to divide
that section of hair
1046
00:52:27,645 --> 00:52:29,879
Into three
different strands.
1047
00:52:29,981 --> 00:52:31,747
In an average
number of people,
1048
00:52:31,849 --> 00:52:35,017
This is the normal level
of barium and bismuth.
1049
00:52:35,119 --> 00:52:36,952
That barium and bismuth level
1050
00:52:37,054 --> 00:52:39,522
Is so significantly higher
than the normal
1051
00:52:39,624 --> 00:52:41,490
In all three
of these samples
1052
00:52:41,592 --> 00:52:43,058
That I'm going to be able
to comfortably say
1053
00:52:43,161 --> 00:52:46,262
That she definitely had
some type of a chronic exposure
1054
00:52:46,364 --> 00:52:48,097
To these two
heavy metals,
1055
00:52:48,199 --> 00:52:51,267
And that look on your face
is exactly right.
1056
00:52:51,369 --> 00:52:56,205
How would someone get
bismuth or barium?
1057
00:52:56,307 --> 00:53:00,376
Barium is occurring in a variety
of different sources.
1058
00:53:00,478 --> 00:53:02,778
Higher concentrations,
it's going to be found in things
1059
00:53:02,880 --> 00:53:07,750
Like gunpowder, explosives,
electronic devices,
1060
00:53:07,852 --> 00:53:10,219
But also found in rat poison,
believe it or not.
1061
00:53:10,321 --> 00:53:13,589
?
1062
00:53:13,691 --> 00:53:16,859
If it is rat poison,
you're talking about a low dose,
1063
00:53:16,961 --> 00:53:19,962
Chronic exposure to this
1064
00:53:20,064 --> 00:53:21,797
Over 15 to 24 months.
1065
00:53:21,899 --> 00:53:24,133
This woman had
bladder cancer
1066
00:53:24,235 --> 00:53:25,701
And the other woman
lived with her
1067
00:53:25,803 --> 00:53:30,105
Had kidney cancer.
Interesting.
1068
00:53:30,208 --> 00:53:32,675
So I would say,
for both barium and bismuth,
1069
00:53:32,777 --> 00:53:34,977
There is actually,
within the literature,
1070
00:53:35,079 --> 00:53:38,781
Lots of references
to renal system issues
1071
00:53:38,883 --> 00:53:41,116
With high-dose exposure.
1072
00:53:41,219 --> 00:53:42,885
The other thing
with that is that
1073
00:53:42,987 --> 00:53:43,986
We're still thinking about
1074
00:53:44,088 --> 00:53:45,821
And we're really trying
to answer the question
1075
00:53:45,923 --> 00:53:48,624
From your original
conversation with me
1076
00:53:48,726 --> 00:53:49,725
About the cancer
1077
00:53:49,827 --> 00:53:51,827
About what caused these women
in this house
1078
00:53:51,929 --> 00:53:54,163
At this time
and place in history
1079
00:53:54,265 --> 00:53:58,000
To all develop
different forms of cancer,
1080
00:53:58,102 --> 00:54:00,603
But we really
just don't know.
1081
00:54:00,705 --> 00:54:06,008
?
1082
00:54:06,110 --> 00:54:07,843
Is it possible
that keith raniere
1083
00:54:07,945 --> 00:54:11,947
Poisoned these women
over a period of years?
1084
00:54:12,049 --> 00:54:13,983
For those who knew him
1085
00:54:14,085 --> 00:54:16,051
And the secrecy surrounding him
1086
00:54:16,153 --> 00:54:18,887
And his inner circle.
1087
00:54:19,023 --> 00:54:20,623
Makes anything possible.
1088
00:54:20,725 --> 00:54:24,660
?
1089
00:54:24,762 --> 00:54:26,095
Come check us out.
1090
00:54:26,197 --> 00:54:28,497
Let's get this ball in the road.
1091
00:54:28,566 --> 00:54:31,500
Pam is the one who went out
and sought people
1092
00:54:31,602 --> 00:54:33,435
And set people up for keith.
1093
00:54:33,537 --> 00:54:38,540
She was keith's pimp
for decades...
1094
00:54:38,643 --> 00:54:40,576
Until she died.
1095
00:54:40,678 --> 00:54:44,246
And then allison mack is
the one who took over.
1096
00:54:44,348 --> 00:54:46,015
?
1097
00:54:46,117 --> 00:54:47,316
Rosales: Allison mack
was an actress.
1098
00:54:47,418 --> 00:54:50,452
She appeared in the television
series "smallville."
1099
00:54:50,554 --> 00:54:54,690
She was a very dedicated member
of esp.
1100
00:54:54,792 --> 00:54:56,358
She started out
as just someone
1101
00:54:56,460 --> 00:54:59,261
Who was recruited through
the vancouver center.
1102
00:54:59,363 --> 00:55:03,265
Once she met keith,
became his second in command.
1103
00:55:03,367 --> 00:55:05,634
Ross: They then created
keith raniere's
1104
00:55:05,736 --> 00:55:10,906
Secret master slave order,
known as "dos",
1105
00:55:11,008 --> 00:55:13,776
Headed by lauren salzman,
by allison mack.
1106
00:55:13,878 --> 00:55:18,180
But, ultimately, keith raniere
was the ultimate authority
1107
00:55:18,282 --> 00:55:20,449
Over this secret group of women
1108
00:55:20,551 --> 00:55:23,519
Who became his sex slaves.
1109
00:55:23,621 --> 00:55:28,057
Lalich: Dos was the secret
sorority for women
1110
00:55:28,159 --> 00:55:30,326
Where the branding took place.
1111
00:55:30,428 --> 00:55:32,094
Rosales: Dos was
the elite of the elite,
1112
00:55:32,196 --> 00:55:34,830
And it gave some of the women
special access to keith
1113
00:55:34,932 --> 00:55:35,898
And vice versa.
1114
00:55:36,000 --> 00:55:39,268
But the cost of dos
is the branding
1115
00:55:39,370 --> 00:55:42,805
And the humiliation
and the pain.
1116
00:55:42,907 --> 00:55:45,174
[ distorted ] most women
were surprised
1117
00:55:45,276 --> 00:55:47,009
That the brand was the size
1118
00:55:47,111 --> 00:55:48,777
That it was.
1119
00:55:48,879 --> 00:55:50,245
Glazer: It can look
like a symbol
1120
00:55:50,348 --> 00:55:51,947
Until you know
what to look for.
1121
00:55:52,049 --> 00:55:55,317
Once you've seen the photograph,
"oh, yeah. It's k.A.R."
1122
00:55:55,419 --> 00:55:58,787
Keith allen raniere.
1123
00:55:58,889 --> 00:56:01,190
This is not what you do
to human beings,
1124
00:56:01,292 --> 00:56:04,493
Unless you think you own them.
1125
00:56:04,595 --> 00:56:08,330
Ross: Suddenly, nxivm became
an international story.
1126
00:56:08,432 --> 00:56:12,134
Woman: [ distorted ] so many
people were upset and leaving.
1127
00:56:12,236 --> 00:56:13,535
People were coming out,
1128
00:56:13,637 --> 00:56:15,337
Validating some
of the accusations
1129
00:56:15,439 --> 00:56:17,272
About things that
were happening.
1130
00:56:17,375 --> 00:56:19,274
Basically they lied about it.
1131
00:56:19,377 --> 00:56:21,643
Then it wasn't just
one person lying.
1132
00:56:21,746 --> 00:56:24,179
It seems like it was
a whole group of people
1133
00:56:24,281 --> 00:56:26,715
Lying to keep a cover in place.
1134
00:56:26,817 --> 00:56:30,853
I think it was interesting
that when women were admitted
1135
00:56:30,955 --> 00:56:34,223
To this secret circle
of the cult,
1136
00:56:34,325 --> 00:56:37,559
They were required
to give blackmail material
1137
00:56:37,661 --> 00:56:41,630
In case they ever got inklings
of leaving the cult.
1138
00:56:41,732 --> 00:56:45,000
So, again, a person
who's capable of that
1139
00:56:45,102 --> 00:56:47,236
Is capable of anything.
1140
00:56:47,338 --> 00:56:53,075
?
1141
00:57:00,384 --> 00:57:06,255
?
1142
00:57:06,357 --> 00:57:12,227
?
1143
00:57:12,329 --> 00:57:14,863
[ whirring ]
1144
00:57:14,965 --> 00:57:18,100
Narrator: Frank parlato, the
journalist who first revealed
1145
00:57:18,202 --> 00:57:20,369
That nxivm was branding women,
1146
00:57:20,471 --> 00:57:24,306
Is deep into the next phase
of his investigation.
1147
00:57:24,408 --> 00:57:27,075
Could nxivm founder
keith raniere
1148
00:57:27,178 --> 00:57:30,312
Have played a part
in the deaths of kristin snyder,
1149
00:57:30,414 --> 00:57:34,650
Gina hutchinson, barbara jeske,
and pamela cafritz?
1150
00:57:38,823 --> 00:57:40,889
In the case of kristin snyder,
1151
00:57:40,991 --> 00:57:43,725
Although her body
was never found,
1152
00:57:43,828 --> 00:57:46,261
Frank continues to search
for new leads
1153
00:57:46,363 --> 00:57:48,263
That could hopefully
provide answers
1154
00:57:48,365 --> 00:57:50,632
To the questions
surrounding her death.
1155
00:57:50,734 --> 00:57:57,105
?
1156
00:57:57,208 --> 00:58:02,811
?
1157
00:58:02,913 --> 00:58:05,113
Woman: Kris is gone.
1158
00:58:05,216 --> 00:58:08,717
This amazing person
who is on this planet
1159
00:58:08,819 --> 00:58:14,857
With good intention,
doing great things is gone,
1160
00:58:14,959 --> 00:58:17,359
And all because of a class.
1161
00:58:20,865 --> 00:58:26,335
Around the holidays, she decided
to fly to albany, new york.
1162
00:58:26,437 --> 00:58:28,637
So kris came back from albany.
1163
00:58:28,739 --> 00:58:33,842
She was very disconnected from
some of the people around her.
1164
00:58:33,944 --> 00:58:36,111
Some of her joy
and some of her laughter
1165
00:58:36,213 --> 00:58:41,250
And some of what the character
that kris is and was
1166
00:58:41,352 --> 00:58:43,585
Seemed dampened.
1167
00:58:43,687 --> 00:58:45,120
She was just not the same.
1168
00:58:45,222 --> 00:58:48,323
If he has done
what has been reported
1169
00:58:48,425 --> 00:58:50,425
And on record of what he's done,
1170
00:58:50,528 --> 00:58:56,932
If he invited her
into his little sex den
1171
00:58:57,034 --> 00:58:59,801
And this happened to her,
1172
00:58:59,904 --> 00:59:05,574
I have no doubt
that it was not --
1173
00:59:05,676 --> 00:59:08,076
It would have been
not a consensual situation.
1174
00:59:10,180 --> 00:59:11,780
To have sex with him.
1175
00:59:11,882 --> 00:59:19,454
?
1176
00:59:19,557 --> 00:59:21,356
Matt, how are you doing?
1177
00:59:21,458 --> 00:59:24,026
Malone:
Good. How are you?
1178
00:59:24,128 --> 00:59:27,396
I overheard and would be
kind of in the room
1179
00:59:27,498 --> 00:59:28,730
And privy
to some conversations
1180
00:59:28,832 --> 00:59:30,499
And some documents
and some data
1181
00:59:30,601 --> 00:59:33,402
That I don't think a lot
of people had access to.
1182
00:59:33,504 --> 00:59:38,206
An important element of this
investigation is to find out
1183
00:59:38,309 --> 00:59:41,743
If keith and kristin
had a relationship.
1184
00:59:41,845 --> 00:59:44,446
Did they have
an intimate relationship?
1185
00:59:44,548 --> 00:59:46,148
And this is what matt
can hopefully
1186
00:59:46,250 --> 00:59:48,283
Shed a little bit of light on.
1187
00:59:50,955 --> 00:59:53,956
You went to work
for clare bronfman.
1188
00:59:54,058 --> 00:59:56,058
I was hired
on a security contract.
1189
00:59:56,160 --> 00:59:58,527
So my contract with clare
was basically
1190
00:59:58,629 --> 01:00:02,130
To do I.T. Information
technology and security.
1191
01:00:02,232 --> 01:00:05,000
It was supposed to be a wireless
sharing network, right.
1192
01:00:05,102 --> 01:00:08,103
So the concept and the story
was that we're --
1193
01:00:08,205 --> 01:00:10,072
Basically, keith was like,
"hey, I want to be able
1194
01:00:10,174 --> 01:00:11,873
To take cellphones,
bond them together,
1195
01:00:11,976 --> 01:00:14,643
Have, you know, shared bandwidth
stuff like that."
1196
01:00:14,745 --> 01:00:16,545
And they're asking to do
1197
01:00:16,647 --> 01:00:18,580
What's called
wireless mesh node networking.
1198
01:00:18,682 --> 01:00:20,048
Wireless mesh node
networking
1199
01:00:20,150 --> 01:00:22,618
Allows you to basically
create your own internet.
1200
01:00:22,720 --> 01:00:27,789
When you're basically building
your own network at your house,
1201
01:00:27,891 --> 01:00:30,225
You get to see everything
that goes across, right?
1202
01:00:30,327 --> 01:00:31,893
His real motive was
to spy on everybody.
1203
01:00:31,996 --> 01:00:34,997
Spy on his people.
That's what I know now.
1204
01:00:35,099 --> 01:00:36,098
Crazy, right?
1205
01:00:36,200 --> 01:00:37,232
So and then finally
1206
01:00:37,334 --> 01:00:38,667
When we started asking
ethical questions,
1207
01:00:38,769 --> 01:00:41,336
We got kicked off
the project -- shocker.
1208
01:00:41,438 --> 01:00:44,506
Did they ever mention
the name kristin snyder to you?
1209
01:00:44,608 --> 01:00:46,475
Yes.
1210
01:00:46,577 --> 01:00:50,178
A friend of mine had been asked
to research into kristin snyder
1211
01:00:50,280 --> 01:00:53,482
To see where she was.
1212
01:00:53,617 --> 01:00:58,253
So they told your friend
that kristin snyder was alive.
1213
01:00:58,355 --> 01:00:59,287
Yeah,
the understanding was --
1214
01:00:59,423 --> 01:01:02,024
Is that they feel like
she faked her own death
1215
01:01:02,126 --> 01:01:03,959
And that she wasn't
really dead.
1216
01:01:04,061 --> 01:01:06,194
Maybe he killed her,
1217
01:01:06,296 --> 01:01:08,797
Or she faked her own death
and escaped.
1218
01:01:08,899 --> 01:01:12,534
Either extreme
goes to show
1219
01:01:12,636 --> 01:01:15,070
What kind
of a monster it is.
1220
01:01:15,172 --> 01:01:17,773
You know, kristin snyder, he had
gotten her pregnant, right?
1221
01:01:20,210 --> 01:01:22,077
Keith raniere?
1222
01:01:22,179 --> 01:01:24,246
We had known
that kristin snyder was --
1223
01:01:24,348 --> 01:01:28,617
Had been pregnant
with one of his kids.
1224
01:01:28,719 --> 01:01:32,621
How do you know
clare bronfman?
1225
01:01:32,723 --> 01:01:34,823
From clare's mouth,
from her words.
1226
01:01:34,925 --> 01:01:38,593
Clare bronfman told you that
kristin snyder was pregnant?
1227
01:01:38,696 --> 01:01:39,828
Yep.
1228
01:01:42,966 --> 01:01:45,133
Kristin snyder
was pregnant
1229
01:01:45,235 --> 01:01:48,003
Sheds a brand-new light
on this thing.
1230
01:01:48,105 --> 01:01:53,108
?
1231
01:01:53,210 --> 01:01:55,143
Narrator: If it's true
that keith raniere
1232
01:01:55,245 --> 01:01:57,646
Fathered a child
with kristin snyder,
1233
01:01:57,748 --> 01:02:00,282
She could have been a threat,
1234
01:02:00,384 --> 01:02:03,251
Especially if she had refused
to have an abortion,
1235
01:02:03,353 --> 01:02:06,121
As raniere had allegedly
convinced other women
1236
01:02:06,256 --> 01:02:08,223
With whom he'd been intimate.
1237
01:02:08,325 --> 01:02:10,726
Snyder's baby
would be physical proof
1238
01:02:10,828 --> 01:02:13,428
That raniere was having sex
with his followers
1239
01:02:13,530 --> 01:02:16,598
And, even worse, that he could
have been manipulating them
1240
01:02:16,700 --> 01:02:20,135
Into unwanted
sexual relationships.
1241
01:02:20,237 --> 01:02:24,606
Still, another woman had a child
fathered by keith raniere.
1242
01:02:24,708 --> 01:02:30,345
And unlike kristin snyder.
She is very much alive.
1243
01:02:30,447 --> 01:02:34,616
She escaped nxivm
and went into hiding.
1244
01:02:34,718 --> 01:02:37,452
Her name is kristin keeffe.
1245
01:02:37,554 --> 01:02:41,823
?
1246
01:02:41,925 --> 01:02:43,125
[ ringing ]
1247
01:02:43,227 --> 01:02:45,160
Keeffe: Hello?
Hey, how you doing?
1248
01:02:45,262 --> 01:02:46,394
Hey, good.
1249
01:03:30,641 --> 01:03:32,641
?
1250
01:03:32,743 --> 01:03:35,010
Kristin keeffe is a mystery.
1251
01:03:35,112 --> 01:03:39,147
No one's ever interviewed her
on the record.
1252
01:03:39,249 --> 01:03:45,654
She left raniere and fled
with her son, keith's son,
1253
01:03:45,756 --> 01:03:48,423
When he was 7 years old.
1254
01:03:48,525 --> 01:03:51,092
Raniere kept kristin keeffe
so skinny
1255
01:03:51,195 --> 01:03:53,094
And on such a restricted diet
1256
01:03:53,197 --> 01:03:55,564
That nobody knew
she was pregnant,
1257
01:03:55,666 --> 01:03:58,700
Including kristin herself,
1258
01:03:58,802 --> 01:04:00,602
Until she was
eight months pregnant
1259
01:04:00,704 --> 01:04:02,904
And unable to have an abortion.
1260
01:04:03,006 --> 01:04:06,341
Now finally, for the first time,
she's ready to talk.
1261
01:04:09,847 --> 01:04:11,580
Kristin knew a lot.
1262
01:04:11,682 --> 01:04:14,149
She knew of a lot
of illegal activity.
1263
01:04:14,251 --> 01:04:18,220
Lyons: Leaving nxivm for many
people was treacherous ground.
1264
01:04:18,322 --> 01:04:22,324
If a woman impregnated
by raniere wanted to leave,
1265
01:04:22,426 --> 01:04:24,726
You look at the case
of kristin keeffe.
1266
01:04:24,828 --> 01:04:28,763
Ultimately, when she saw her
opening, she just went for it.
1267
01:04:31,902 --> 01:04:34,269
Narrator:
Now, for the first time,
1268
01:04:34,371 --> 01:04:38,240
Kristin keeffe will sit down
for an on-camera interview.
1269
01:04:40,711 --> 01:04:42,244
My name is kristin keeffe,
1270
01:04:42,346 --> 01:04:45,714
And I was involved with nxivm
for 16 years
1271
01:04:45,816 --> 01:04:49,117
And keith raniere for 24 years.
1272
01:04:49,219 --> 01:04:54,556
And I became
the primary whistle-blower.
1273
01:04:54,658 --> 01:05:00,729
I left my house with nothing
but my pocketbook.
1274
01:05:00,831 --> 01:05:04,232
And I took a taxi
to the police station.
1275
01:05:04,334 --> 01:05:07,002
And while I was
at the police station,
1276
01:05:07,104 --> 01:05:08,970
The nxivm attorneys found out,
1277
01:05:09,072 --> 01:05:11,907
And the nxivm attorneys
called there
1278
01:05:12,009 --> 01:05:14,743
And said, "we know she's there."
1279
01:05:14,845 --> 01:05:17,212
And I said, "that's it.
I can never go back."
1280
01:05:17,314 --> 01:05:22,117
I knew they would put millions
of dollars into finding me,
1281
01:05:22,219 --> 01:05:27,689
Grabbing me, doing whatever
they could to take my son.
1282
01:05:27,791 --> 01:05:30,458
I knew that when I walked into
that police station,
1283
01:05:30,560 --> 01:05:34,596
In keith's mind,
that was nuclear war.
1284
01:05:34,698 --> 01:05:37,933
No one had ever done anything
like that to him before.
1285
01:05:38,035 --> 01:05:42,837
I knew I was being hunted
like an animal.
1286
01:05:49,813 --> 01:05:51,813
Okay, let's stop.
1287
01:05:51,915 --> 01:05:53,415
No, I don't want
to talk anymore.
1288
01:05:53,517 --> 01:05:54,716
Really, I'm done.
1289
01:05:54,818 --> 01:05:56,518
I don't want to talk anymore.
1290
01:05:56,620 --> 01:05:59,521
?
1291
01:06:07,764 --> 01:06:12,801
?
1292
01:06:12,903 --> 01:06:15,337
Narrator:
Nxivm insider kristin keeffe
1293
01:06:15,439 --> 01:06:16,738
Is one of the many women
1294
01:06:16,840 --> 01:06:20,442
Nxivm leader keith raniere
impregnated.
1295
01:06:20,510 --> 01:06:22,978
Unlike allegedly dozens
of others,
1296
01:06:23,080 --> 01:06:25,847
She was not forced
to have an abortion.
1297
01:06:25,949 --> 01:06:30,852
When her son was 7 years old,
keeffe escaped.
1298
01:06:30,954 --> 01:06:32,887
Due to fears
for her son's safety,
1299
01:06:32,990 --> 01:06:35,290
Keeffe is unwilling
to discuss him.
1300
01:06:35,392 --> 01:06:38,727
But she agrees to continue
divulging what she knows
1301
01:06:38,829 --> 01:06:41,563
About keith raniere and nxivm.
1302
01:06:45,135 --> 01:06:47,035
Keeffe:
You know, initially, no one.
1303
01:06:47,137 --> 01:06:48,236
Everyone was against me.
1304
01:06:48,338 --> 01:06:51,840
All the people that were
against nxivm were against me,
1305
01:06:51,942 --> 01:06:53,608
And all the people
that were in nxivm
1306
01:06:53,710 --> 01:06:56,578
Or that knew about my departure
were against me.
1307
01:06:56,680 --> 01:06:59,647
And here I was coming with all
this evidence and information
1308
01:06:59,750 --> 01:07:01,383
And saying, "all right."
1309
01:07:01,485 --> 01:07:03,585
And no one would help me.
1310
01:07:03,687 --> 01:07:05,754
Producer:
Do you think keith raniere
was gonna kill you?
1311
01:07:05,856 --> 01:07:08,289
No, he was gonna kidnap me.
1312
01:07:08,392 --> 01:07:10,592
I decided it was time to leave
1313
01:07:10,694 --> 01:07:16,531
The moment that I realized
that keith was a psychopath.
1314
01:07:16,633 --> 01:07:17,866
And it was eerie.
1315
01:07:17,968 --> 01:07:21,102
It was undeniable.
I was certain of it.
1316
01:07:21,204 --> 01:07:22,704
Because I think he was
1317
01:07:22,806 --> 01:07:26,674
Absolutely deliberately
trying to destroy people.
1318
01:07:26,777 --> 01:07:35,483
?
1319
01:08:45,188 --> 01:08:47,889
Ross:
In dos, he did become violent
1320
01:08:47,958 --> 01:08:51,826
Because he mandated
this torturing of women
1321
01:08:51,928 --> 01:08:54,662
Where he would
brand his initials
1322
01:08:54,764 --> 01:08:56,831
Using a cauterizing iron.
1323
01:08:56,933 --> 01:08:59,134
It would take 30 minutes.
1324
01:08:59,236 --> 01:09:04,172
People would hold them down on
a table, and they would scream.
1325
01:09:04,307 --> 01:09:07,542
They had no local anesthetic.
1326
01:09:07,644 --> 01:09:09,911
And he would watch.
1327
01:09:10,013 --> 01:09:12,347
In the end, keith raniere
thought, you know,
1328
01:09:12,482 --> 01:09:16,451
"I am the boss.
I can control women."
1329
01:09:16,586 --> 01:09:20,221
You had women who were
basically forced,
1330
01:09:20,323 --> 01:09:25,693
Coerced to have sex with keith,
which they didn't want to do.
1331
01:09:25,795 --> 01:09:29,898
You had women who were forced to
take naked photos of themselves
1332
01:09:30,000 --> 01:09:32,333
Or have others
take photos of themselves.
1333
01:09:32,435 --> 01:09:35,937
You had women who were
tied down on a board
1334
01:09:36,039 --> 01:09:38,673
And had oral sex
performed on them,
1335
01:09:38,775 --> 01:09:41,809
Blindfolded,
not knowing who was doing it.
1336
01:09:41,912 --> 01:09:44,145
People get paddled naked.
1337
01:09:44,247 --> 01:09:47,715
These weren't like
some polyamorous orgies.
1338
01:09:47,817 --> 01:09:52,921
These were, in fact,
terrifying, traumatic instances.
1339
01:09:53,023 --> 01:10:01,763
?
1340
01:10:01,865 --> 01:10:10,371
?
1341
01:10:10,473 --> 01:10:13,241
Keeffe: Kristin snider,
when she disappeared,
1342
01:10:13,343 --> 01:10:16,244
I was tasked with investigating
what happened.
1343
01:10:16,346 --> 01:10:18,580
Parlato: There was an assignment
to go to alaska.
1344
01:10:18,682 --> 01:10:20,949
Yes, keith was like,
"I want you to go up there
1345
01:10:21,051 --> 01:10:22,550
And talk to everyone."
1346
01:10:22,652 --> 01:10:28,489
And when I got up there and
I started interviewing people,
1347
01:10:28,592 --> 01:10:31,859
I started to question,
"this just --
1348
01:10:31,962 --> 01:10:33,228
This isn't adding up."
1349
01:10:33,330 --> 01:10:36,431
Understand, when the first --
the whole thing first happened,
1350
01:10:36,533 --> 01:10:39,000
The police didn't think
it was nxivm's responsibility.
1351
01:10:39,102 --> 01:10:40,835
There wasn't
a big investigation.
1352
01:10:40,937 --> 01:10:43,037
The whole thing
blew over like that.
1353
01:10:43,139 --> 01:10:47,041
Do you think the police did
a thorough job in investigating?
1354
01:10:47,143 --> 01:10:48,509
The alaska state police?
1355
01:10:48,612 --> 01:10:53,281
I don't think that anyone
from kris's family
1356
01:10:53,383 --> 01:10:56,050
Represented to the police
at the time
1357
01:10:56,152 --> 01:10:59,754
That they felt her disappearance
was a result of the training.
1358
01:10:59,856 --> 01:11:01,856
What do you think
is the ultimate truth
1359
01:11:01,958 --> 01:11:03,524
About kristin snyder?
1360
01:11:03,627 --> 01:11:05,660
Do you think she died?
Do you think she's alive?
1361
01:11:05,762 --> 01:11:07,695
Do you think
she committed suicide?
1362
01:11:07,797 --> 01:11:10,131
You've had some time
to think about this.
1363
01:11:10,233 --> 01:11:12,367
You were deeply involved
investigating this.
1364
01:11:12,469 --> 01:11:13,568
Mm-hmm.
1365
01:11:13,670 --> 01:11:20,174
I think that she did not
commit suicide at that time.
1366
01:11:22,178 --> 01:11:23,978
I think she's alive.
1367
01:11:26,116 --> 01:11:28,149
The only thing
I'm pretty sure of is,
1368
01:11:28,251 --> 01:11:29,884
The official story
is not real.
1369
01:11:29,986 --> 01:11:33,021
Right. Oh, yes.
The official story is not real.
1370
01:11:33,123 --> 01:11:35,890
There's a lot of questions
that it would be great
1371
01:11:35,992 --> 01:11:37,525
If they were answered.
1372
01:11:37,627 --> 01:11:39,427
And I think heidi
knows something.
1373
01:11:39,529 --> 01:11:41,095
Heidi clifford.
1374
01:11:41,197 --> 01:11:48,736
?
1375
01:11:48,838 --> 01:11:55,843
?
1376
01:11:55,945 --> 01:12:03,051
?
1377
01:12:03,153 --> 01:12:04,986
Narrator:
Perhaps the most vital witness
1378
01:12:05,088 --> 01:12:07,655
In kristin snyder's
disappearance
1379
01:12:07,757 --> 01:12:11,793
Is heidi clifford,
snyder's wife.
1380
01:12:11,895 --> 01:12:15,096
She was present in the nxivm
training course in alaska
1381
01:12:15,198 --> 01:12:19,133
When kristin was dragged
out of the room.
1382
01:12:19,235 --> 01:12:22,970
Heidi clifford probably knows
why that happened.
1383
01:12:23,073 --> 01:12:25,773
She may also be able
to provide a sample
1384
01:12:25,875 --> 01:12:28,543
Of kristin snyder's handwriting,
1385
01:12:28,645 --> 01:12:34,382
A sample that can be compared to
kristin's alleged suicide note.
1386
01:12:37,187 --> 01:12:39,320
Parlato: I've been trying
to reach kristin snyder's wife,
1387
01:12:39,422 --> 01:12:41,723
Heidi clifford,
for more than a month.
1388
01:12:41,825 --> 01:12:43,925
She finally got back to me.
1389
01:12:44,027 --> 01:12:48,162
I want to get a copy
of kristin snyder's handwriting,
1390
01:12:48,264 --> 01:12:50,231
Something that we know
she definitely wrote,
1391
01:12:50,333 --> 01:12:54,135
So I can compare it
to the purported suicide note.
1392
01:12:54,237 --> 01:12:57,839
The only physical piece
of evidence that we have
1393
01:12:57,941 --> 01:13:01,709
That links kristin snyder's
death to suicide
1394
01:13:01,845 --> 01:13:03,878
Is that one note.
1395
01:13:03,980 --> 01:13:07,682
?
1396
01:13:07,784 --> 01:13:09,217
[ speaks indistinctly ]
1397
01:13:09,319 --> 01:13:10,685
Yeah.
That all right?
1398
01:13:13,656 --> 01:13:14,856
[ clears throat ]
1399
01:13:14,958 --> 01:13:17,091
Does it start
to get cold now?
1400
01:13:20,597 --> 01:13:23,564
Heidi, I want to thank you
for coming on-camera
1401
01:13:23,666 --> 01:13:24,866
And talking to me.
1402
01:13:24,968 --> 01:13:31,773
?
1403
01:13:38,782 --> 01:13:45,887
?
1404
01:13:45,989 --> 01:13:47,922
Narrator: Heidi clifford
was kristin snyder's wife
1405
01:13:48,024 --> 01:13:49,791
Of two years.
1406
01:13:49,893 --> 01:13:52,693
She was in the same nxivm
training course with kristin
1407
01:13:52,796 --> 01:13:55,963
Hours before she vanished.
1408
01:13:56,065 --> 01:14:01,002
Due to fear of retaliation
by keith raniere's allies,
1409
01:14:01,104 --> 01:14:03,871
She has up to this point
only spoken to us
1410
01:14:03,973 --> 01:14:06,574
On the condition of anonymity.
1411
01:14:06,676 --> 01:14:09,076
Now, for the first time,
1412
01:14:09,179 --> 01:14:12,747
Heidi has finally agreed
to appear on-camera.
1413
01:14:15,185 --> 01:14:18,853
Yeah, I know you were
a little reticent to appear.
1414
01:14:18,955 --> 01:14:21,355
Last week when I first
met with the director,
1415
01:14:21,458 --> 01:14:24,592
I didn't even want my voice
to be the same voice.
1416
01:14:24,694 --> 01:14:28,062
I didn't want my face
to be on the camera.
1417
01:14:28,164 --> 01:14:35,069
I never talked about it at all
until today.
1418
01:14:35,171 --> 01:14:37,905
And I'm still scared.
1419
01:14:38,007 --> 01:14:40,007
I ran last the 15, 16 years
of my life
1420
01:14:40,109 --> 01:14:42,376
Being scared
of these people.
1421
01:14:42,479 --> 01:14:44,345
How do you feel now?
1422
01:14:44,447 --> 01:14:45,847
I'm still scared.
[ chuckles ]
1423
01:14:45,949 --> 01:14:48,049
It's still there.
1424
01:14:48,151 --> 01:14:49,784
What do you think
happened to her?
1425
01:14:49,886 --> 01:14:54,922
I think keith raniere
had inappropriate sex with her,
1426
01:14:55,024 --> 01:14:58,259
Which would have
thrown her off her rocker.
1427
01:14:58,361 --> 01:15:03,998
I think if she came home from
new york in December or January
1428
01:15:04,100 --> 01:15:08,803
Before the class that we took
and maybe she missed her period,
1429
01:15:08,905 --> 01:15:12,073
And then that would have been
like, "oh, I am pregnant,
1430
01:15:12,175 --> 01:15:13,875
'cause I didn't
have my period."
1431
01:15:13,977 --> 01:15:16,043
So right about that time
would've been about a month
1432
01:15:16,145 --> 01:15:19,981
After she left keith
in new york.
1433
01:15:20,083 --> 01:15:23,150
And...
1434
01:15:23,253 --> 01:15:28,222
I don't remember if it was that
day at lunch or the day before.
1435
01:15:28,324 --> 01:15:29,757
We had rings.
1436
01:15:29,859 --> 01:15:33,261
And she took her ring off
at lunch.
1437
01:15:33,363 --> 01:15:35,997
And she said,
"can you hold this for me?"
1438
01:15:36,099 --> 01:15:38,466
And I said,
"I will hold it for you."
1439
01:15:38,568 --> 01:15:41,035
And I put it in my pocket.
1440
01:15:41,137 --> 01:15:43,404
And again, what we know
about keith raniere and nxivm
1441
01:15:43,506 --> 01:15:47,241
Is if you are in a relationship
with keith,
1442
01:15:47,343 --> 01:15:49,243
You cannot have a relationship
with anybody else.
1443
01:15:49,345 --> 01:15:51,812
Did she ever
tell you directly
1444
01:15:51,915 --> 01:15:54,982
That she was pregnant
with keith's child?
1445
01:15:55,084 --> 01:15:57,451
When kris was going through
this three or four days
1446
01:15:57,554 --> 01:15:59,954
Of just kind of like
a psychotic break,
1447
01:16:00,056 --> 01:16:06,060
She reported to me that she was
pregnant with keith's baby.
1448
01:16:07,830 --> 01:16:10,131
And I'm like, "what?
What are you talking about?"
1449
01:16:10,233 --> 01:16:12,300
And then I heard it more
in the class
1450
01:16:12,402 --> 01:16:13,501
When she was
yelling it out.
1451
01:16:13,603 --> 01:16:15,403
She actually told that
to the class?
1452
01:16:15,505 --> 01:16:16,971
Yelled it.
1453
01:16:19,042 --> 01:16:21,008
They just kept pulling her
out of the room,
1454
01:16:21,110 --> 01:16:23,544
Pulling her out of the room,
pulling her out of the room.
1455
01:16:23,646 --> 01:16:25,546
This is not just one time.
1456
01:16:25,648 --> 01:16:28,482
This is three or four times
she is blurting this out.
1457
01:16:28,585 --> 01:16:31,619
Did you mention that kris
might have been pregnant
1458
01:16:31,721 --> 01:16:34,088
To law enforcement
in the seward police,
1459
01:16:34,223 --> 01:16:35,723
State troopers?
1460
01:16:35,825 --> 01:16:38,392
No, I was...
1461
01:16:38,494 --> 01:16:39,727
I was pretty much
making sure
1462
01:16:39,829 --> 01:16:41,629
That they weren't gonna think
I had anything to do with it.
1463
01:16:41,731 --> 01:16:44,565
Do you think the police did
a good job investigating this?
1464
01:16:44,667 --> 01:16:46,400
Back then,
there's no layers.
1465
01:16:46,502 --> 01:16:48,869
Back then, it was just,
"kris is not here.
1466
01:16:48,972 --> 01:16:50,438
Kris is gone."
that was it.
1467
01:16:50,540 --> 01:16:51,639
Kayak missing.
1468
01:16:51,741 --> 01:16:53,140
Kayak missing.
That's it.
1469
01:16:53,242 --> 01:16:55,643
Now so much more
information.
1470
01:16:55,745 --> 01:16:57,645
There's so many layers
to this.
1471
01:16:57,747 --> 01:16:59,614
Then you didn't point a finger
toward raniere.
1472
01:16:59,716 --> 01:17:01,782
No. Just --
no, not at all.
1473
01:17:01,884 --> 01:17:06,954
Do you have any handwriting
samples of kris?
1474
01:17:07,056 --> 01:17:08,623
I was looking through
my stuff today.
1475
01:17:08,725 --> 01:17:12,093
I have like one or two notes,
not a lot.
1476
01:17:12,161 --> 01:17:14,395
Even something
could help us.
1477
01:17:14,497 --> 01:17:19,467
?
1478
01:17:19,569 --> 01:17:22,370
This is one of the handwriting,
very little.
1479
01:17:22,472 --> 01:17:24,071
Valentine's day card.
1480
01:17:26,209 --> 01:17:29,443
February 14, 2001.
1481
01:17:29,545 --> 01:17:32,113
Heidi, this has been
very extremely helpful.
1482
01:17:32,215 --> 01:17:33,748
I think
we're getting closer.
1483
01:17:33,850 --> 01:17:37,251
It should be tested just to see
if they're the same.
1484
01:17:37,353 --> 01:17:39,387
We need to find out.
1485
01:17:41,324 --> 01:17:50,464
?
1486
01:17:50,566 --> 01:17:51,866
Chrisman:
My name is beth chrisman.
1487
01:17:51,968 --> 01:17:54,769
I am a forensic
document examiner.
1488
01:17:54,871 --> 01:17:57,471
I examine documents that
have been called into question
1489
01:17:57,573 --> 01:18:01,342
Or have some type
of maybe alteration to them.
1490
01:18:01,444 --> 01:18:03,978
Typically looking at
suicide notes,
1491
01:18:04,080 --> 01:18:06,347
It's about gathering
enough handwriting
1492
01:18:06,449 --> 01:18:09,717
From the person who allegedly
wrote the suicide note
1493
01:18:09,819 --> 01:18:13,254
And determining whether or not
the letter formations,
1494
01:18:13,356 --> 01:18:17,658
Letter-height proportions,
slant actually match.
1495
01:18:17,760 --> 01:18:19,126
[ knock on door ]
parlato: Beth?
1496
01:18:19,228 --> 01:18:21,028
Chrisman: Yes. Hi.
Hi. Frank parlato.
1497
01:18:21,130 --> 01:18:22,063
Nice to meet you, frank.
1498
01:18:22,165 --> 01:18:22,897
Nice to meet you.
1499
01:18:22,999 --> 01:18:24,765
Have a seat.
Thank you.
1500
01:18:26,202 --> 01:18:29,203
Chrisman: So what I did
in this particular situation
1501
01:18:29,305 --> 01:18:32,106
Was I looked first
at this questioned suicide note
1502
01:18:32,208 --> 01:18:35,943
To determine, was it written
consistently by one person?
1503
01:18:36,045 --> 01:18:37,044
I looked at the card.
1504
01:18:37,146 --> 01:18:41,749
The card is in a very beautiful
cursive writing.
1505
01:18:41,851 --> 01:18:45,886
I broke down each letter
formation, stroke formation
1506
01:18:45,988 --> 01:18:49,090
And attempted to do
the best comparison possible
1507
01:18:49,192 --> 01:18:53,761
Between this card
and this alleged suicide note.
1508
01:18:53,863 --> 01:18:55,329
And then that's
where we come in
1509
01:18:55,431 --> 01:18:58,766
With all the differences
and the similarities.
1510
01:18:58,868 --> 01:19:03,904
Can you tell me, was the suicide
note written by kristin snyder?
1511
01:19:04,006 --> 01:19:07,842
?
1512
01:19:15,585 --> 01:19:21,288
?
1513
01:19:21,390 --> 01:19:26,927
?
1514
01:19:27,029 --> 01:19:28,729
Narrator:
Kristin snyder was last seen
1515
01:19:28,831 --> 01:19:32,299
Leaving a nxivm training course
in anchorage, alaska.
1516
01:19:32,401 --> 01:19:35,636
Snyder's wife, heidi, revealed
that kristin was shouting
1517
01:19:35,738 --> 01:19:37,905
That she was pregnant
with raniere's child
1518
01:19:38,007 --> 01:19:43,277
When the nxivm trainers
pulled her out of the seminar.
1519
01:19:43,379 --> 01:19:46,647
Frank parlato believes that
the reality of her pregnancy
1520
01:19:46,749 --> 01:19:51,085
Could be the motive
for her disappearance.
1521
01:19:51,187 --> 01:19:53,788
Given the scale
of the search for snyder,
1522
01:19:53,923 --> 01:19:57,458
The fact that nothing,
her body, the kayak,
1523
01:19:57,560 --> 01:20:02,196
Or any other clues were
ever found is deeply suspect.
1524
01:20:02,298 --> 01:20:04,198
The only piece
of physical evidence
1525
01:20:04,300 --> 01:20:07,468
That seems to suggest
snyder committed suicide
1526
01:20:07,570 --> 01:20:09,904
Is the suicide note.
1527
01:20:10,006 --> 01:20:15,209
If the note or parts of the note
were written by somebody else,
1528
01:20:15,311 --> 01:20:17,545
Law enforcement
may have no choice
1529
01:20:17,647 --> 01:20:21,348
But to re-examine the details
surrounding this case.
1530
01:20:23,219 --> 01:20:28,522
Can you tell me, was the suicide
note written by kristin snyder?
1531
01:20:28,624 --> 01:20:31,158
Chrisman: In the card,
she has a very distinct way
1532
01:20:31,260 --> 01:20:33,661
That she writes
her uppercase "I."
1533
01:20:33,729 --> 01:20:35,930
It's very unique to her.
1534
01:20:36,032 --> 01:20:38,899
This is the way
she makes her cursive "I."
1535
01:20:39,001 --> 01:20:41,669
And when she goes
to write --
1536
01:20:41,771 --> 01:20:43,604
Or whoever wrote
the alleged suicide note,
1537
01:20:43,706 --> 01:20:46,707
They just wrote an uppercase "I"
like we learned in first grade.
1538
01:20:49,879 --> 01:20:52,413
I mean, I think
that's very fascinating.
1539
01:20:54,317 --> 01:20:57,852
Because we don't have enough
known handwriting samples,
1540
01:20:57,954 --> 01:21:00,354
I can't absolutely identify
1541
01:21:00,456 --> 01:21:03,090
That the same person
wrote both of these.
1542
01:21:03,192 --> 01:21:04,225
You can't say.
1543
01:21:04,327 --> 01:21:06,093
You wouldn't say
that they're the same.
1544
01:21:06,195 --> 01:21:08,128
I would not say
they're the same.
1545
01:21:11,367 --> 01:21:15,069
It leaves the mystery
unsolved.
1546
01:21:15,171 --> 01:21:16,537
It does.
1547
01:21:16,639 --> 01:21:24,511
?
1548
01:21:24,614 --> 01:21:28,082
Parlato: When kristin snyder
disappeared in 2003,
1549
01:21:28,184 --> 01:21:31,919
The authorities quickly assumed
it was a suicide.
1550
01:21:32,021 --> 01:21:34,755
But after what I've learned
in my investigation
1551
01:21:34,857 --> 01:21:36,423
And the first-person accounts
1552
01:21:36,525 --> 01:21:39,526
Of people who were there at
the time of her disappearance,
1553
01:21:39,629 --> 01:21:41,028
I have serious doubts
1554
01:21:41,130 --> 01:21:45,199
That kristin snyder
took her own life.
1555
01:21:45,301 --> 01:21:47,534
My hope is that
this investigation,
1556
01:21:47,637 --> 01:21:49,770
Which is not over,
1557
01:21:49,872 --> 01:21:52,406
Will assure that
gina hutchinson,
1558
01:21:52,508 --> 01:21:56,911
Barbara jeske, pam cafritz,
and kristin snyder
1559
01:21:57,013 --> 01:21:59,747
Will not have died in vain
1560
01:21:59,849 --> 01:22:02,650
And that everyone whose lives
have been damaged
1561
01:22:02,752 --> 01:22:06,320
By nxivm and keith raniere
1562
01:22:06,422 --> 01:22:10,991
Will be able
to tell their stories at last.
1563
01:22:14,030 --> 01:22:16,363
Narrator: A year and a half
before frank parlato
1564
01:22:16,465 --> 01:22:21,769
Began his investigation
into the lost women of nxivm,
1565
01:22:21,871 --> 01:22:25,940
Authorities arrested
keith raniere in mexico.
1566
01:22:28,444 --> 01:22:30,844
Lyons: After the new york times
published a story,
1567
01:22:30,947 --> 01:22:33,814
Keith raniere was arrested,
1568
01:22:33,916 --> 01:22:37,184
Along with allison mack,
clare bronfman,
1569
01:22:37,286 --> 01:22:39,887
Lauren salzman,
her mother, nancy salzman,
1570
01:22:39,989 --> 01:22:42,389
Who is the president of nxivm.
1571
01:22:42,491 --> 01:22:44,892
Glazer:
There were six people charged.
1572
01:22:44,994 --> 01:22:46,527
Five of them pled guilty.
1573
01:22:46,629 --> 01:22:49,496
The leader, keith raniere,
went to trial.
1574
01:22:49,598 --> 01:22:51,165
Man:
Keith raniere's been operating
1575
01:22:51,267 --> 01:22:53,534
A very dangerous
criminal enterprise
1576
01:22:53,636 --> 01:22:55,803
With his partner,
clare bronfman,
1577
01:22:55,905 --> 01:22:57,805
For 20 years now.
1578
01:22:57,907 --> 01:23:02,476
Lyons: The government's case
was clearly a boiled-down case.
1579
01:23:02,578 --> 01:23:05,245
They proved every element
that they went after.
1580
01:23:05,314 --> 01:23:07,781
And I remember reading
the testimony
1581
01:23:07,883 --> 01:23:09,316
And thinking at one point,
1582
01:23:09,418 --> 01:23:11,852
"if this was a heavyweight
fight, they'd stop it."
1583
01:23:11,954 --> 01:23:14,254
Self-help guru keith raniere
1584
01:23:14,357 --> 01:23:16,890
Has been convicted
of running a sex cult
1585
01:23:16,993 --> 01:23:20,394
Where women were kept as virtual
prisoners to service him.
1586
01:23:20,496 --> 01:23:23,797
A jury took less than five hours
to decide raniere's fate.
1587
01:23:23,899 --> 01:23:25,566
Raniere will be sentenced
on the charges,
1588
01:23:25,701 --> 01:23:27,534
Which include racketeering,
sex trafficking,
1589
01:23:27,636 --> 01:23:30,738
And child-porn possession,
later this year.
1590
01:23:30,840 --> 01:23:34,341
This trial has revealed
that raniere,
1591
01:23:34,443 --> 01:23:39,980
Who portrayed himself
as a savant and a genius,
1592
01:23:40,082 --> 01:23:43,951
Was, in fact,
a master manipulator, con man,
1593
01:23:44,053 --> 01:23:47,354
And the crime boss
of a cult-like organization.
1594
01:23:47,456 --> 01:23:52,192
I would say that there is
such a thing as karma.
1595
01:23:54,463 --> 01:23:56,096
There are other victims.
1596
01:23:56,198 --> 01:23:58,032
Not all of them
have come forward yet.
1597
01:23:58,134 --> 01:24:00,968
There are still victims
who don't dare talk about it,
1598
01:24:01,070 --> 01:24:04,738
Who are still scared to death,
living with it.
1599
01:24:04,840 --> 01:24:08,008
He totally controlled people.
Everybody.
1600
01:24:08,110 --> 01:24:11,612
The things that they would do
for him were believable.
1601
01:24:11,714 --> 01:24:14,248
Woman:
Whoa, that was an alpine turn.
1602
01:24:14,350 --> 01:24:16,150
That one just popped off.
1603
01:24:16,252 --> 01:24:18,552
Clifford:
I'm always hoping.
1604
01:24:18,654 --> 01:24:21,655
You know, just, like,
knock, knock
1605
01:24:21,757 --> 01:24:23,957
And opening the door,
and there she is.
1606
01:24:24,060 --> 01:24:25,926
Ross: In the end,
keith raniere thought
1607
01:24:26,028 --> 01:24:28,395
"I can dominate any woman."
1608
01:24:28,497 --> 01:24:33,500
But in reality, it was women
that brought keith raniere down.
1609
01:24:37,740 --> 01:24:40,641
There's part of me
that feels humiliated
1610
01:24:40,743 --> 01:24:42,076
About being involved in that.
1611
01:24:42,178 --> 01:24:46,280
It's hard to explain, you know,
that this was a bad guy
1612
01:24:46,382 --> 01:24:49,850
And this was a bad organization
doing horrible things.
1613
01:24:49,952 --> 01:24:51,351
I just didn't know.
1614
01:24:51,454 --> 01:24:53,687
Malone:
To find out that maybe some
of the stuff that you were doing
1615
01:24:53,789 --> 01:24:58,025
Was helping to hurt
other people is horrible.
1616
01:24:58,127 --> 01:25:00,494
Lyons: Even as nxivm has been
brought to its knees,
1617
01:25:00,596 --> 01:25:01,995
There are still people
1618
01:25:02,098 --> 01:25:06,166
Who are afraid of
what they could still do.
1619
01:25:06,268 --> 01:25:12,206
I was very determined at a young
age to understand spirituality.
1620
01:25:12,308 --> 01:25:15,876
And, you know, I always thought
that would be walking with god.
1621
01:25:15,978 --> 01:25:18,979
I never thought that that might
entail walking with the devil.
1622
01:25:19,081 --> 01:25:28,155
?
1623
01:25:28,257 --> 01:25:36,497
?
1624
01:25:36,599 --> 01:25:39,700
?
138748
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