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The Crown Prosecution Service
has authorised Merseyside Police
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to charge Thomas Cashman
with the murder
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of nine-year-old Olivia Pratt-Korbel.
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We will see you in court.
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Yeah, we will.
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To clear my name.
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OK.
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If he was any type of man,
he'd admit what he's done.
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Ashley Dale was murdered
in her own home.
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The innocent victim of a
callous crime.
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We'll never come to terms with it.
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I'll never accept it.
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She's not here.
She's not coming back.
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She must have been so scared
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when she heard the door
getting kicked in.
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And she's confronted with someone
holding that.
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AUTOMATIC GUNFIRE
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I have never gone into a scene
like that to see just how determined,
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whoever it was that's gone in,
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there is just no-one getting
out of that house alive.
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Niall Barry has been making threats
towards Lee,
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saying that he's put
money on his head.
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James, come with me, you're under
arrest for suspicion of murder.
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These two work for Niall Barry.
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And if they carried out the attack,
it'll be for him.
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We believe that Witham and Peers
have left the Pilch Lane flat,
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and then have used the Hyundai
to drive to Ashley's home address,
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where the door has been forced
to the premises.
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The gunman has entered,
which we believe is James Witham,
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firing ten shots in Ashley's
direction,
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and then has run out of the house.
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We believe that Joseph Peers is
outside as more or less
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the getaway driver of the Hyundai.
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James, just before we go any
further,
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I need to make you aware that the
interview
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is being downstream monitored.
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Members of the investigation team
will be monitoring the live feed
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of that interview.
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James, what do you know
about the murder of Ashley Dale?
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Do you know anything about it?
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Do you know why Ashley was shot
and killed?
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OK, Joseph, we're really
interested in a grey Hyundai.
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Do you recognise this vehicle?
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No comment.
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Have you ever driven the vehicle?
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No comment.
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We believe that vehicle was used
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in the commission of
Ashley's murder.
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That means it was used to take
the gunman to the address...
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..where Ashley was shot on the head,
she was forced.
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To be more specific, James.
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Did you have any part in forcing
the front door of Leinster Road?
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So the forensic examination
of Leinster Road,
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the CSI recovered a number
of footprint lifts
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from inside the address.
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And he said that the marks were left
by an On Cloudflyer trainer...
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..in a size 8.5.
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Did you leave those footwear
marks in Leinster Road?
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Or is it just a coincidence?
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It's just part of the investigation.
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We've conducted financial enquiries
on a Lloyds account held
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in your name, and those records
show that
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11.09 Saturday the 20th of August,
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there was a transaction for £155
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at Tesco Sports.
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Do you know anything
about that transaction?
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We're going to show you some
footage, James.
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DCI CUMMINGS: He's sweating.
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From isn't it - KMM4?
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So this is footage from Tesco's.
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Male comes to the till...
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..and purchases black On Cloudflyer
trainers..
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..in a size 8.5.
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Do you still have those
trainers, James?
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Where are they now?
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Exhibit DB-21.
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This is a bullet casing
that has been left within the scene
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at Leinster Road.
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That specific casing has been
submitted for forensic analysis.
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So the scientist reports,
"The reference DNA profile
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"of James Witham is almost fully
represented within this result.
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"As I might expect if he was a
contributor of DNA to this result."
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So that bullet
casing has been analysed.
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The scientist is saying
that has come from you.
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Do you want to pause the interview?
If that's what he wants, yeah.
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Yeah, that's fine.
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OK, Joseph, have you got any
links to any organised crime group?
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No comment.
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As in what would be known
as the Barry OCG.
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You linked to the Barry OCG?
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No comment.
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Niall Barry, he's sometimes
called Branch.
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Does that mean anything to you?
That name?
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No comment.
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Did you have any contact with
Niall Barry, also known as Branch,
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on the day of the murder?
No comment.
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OK, James, that's recording
again there.
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OK. Just before the break, James,
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I explained to you about a
bullet casing
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in the address where
Ashley Dale was murdered.
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And I asked if there's anything
you'd like to say
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about those results.
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Was Ashley, the intended target,
James?
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Were you aware
of any of your associates
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being in dispute with Ashley?
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Niall Barry, does that name mean
anything to you?
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Do you know Niall?
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Does the name Lee Harrison mean
anything to you, James?
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So we know Lee to have been
the partner of Ashley
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at the time she was killed.
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Was Niall in dispute with Lee?
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To your knowledge, did Niall
have any involvement in this murder?
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I've got no further questions.
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And the interview is halted.
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Detectives send their evidence
to the Crown Prosecution Service
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for a charging decision.
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PHONE VIBRATES
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Hello, Cath Cummings.
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Are you?
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Bail, it's not quite there on
an evidential threshold.
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For God's sake!
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Mr Witham, just want to step
up here for us, mate. OK.
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But in relation to the murder
you allegedly been involved
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with and arrested for, there's
decision being made
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that you're going to be bailed
on that matter. OK?
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The request on us is to convince
the CPS that it can't
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have been anybody else.
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So what we now need to do,
and really with a fine-tooth comb,
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is go through all call data
for all those relevant people
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that we believe were in the flat
earlier on that day
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into the evening.
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And then the two that leave can only
be Witham and Peers.
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Why I feel frustrated is
having to go and explain
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to the family, yeah, we have made
two arrests today,
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but that unfortunately there
isn't sufficient to charge.
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We've had to release them on bail.
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Also, we as the police have now got
to manage these two individuals
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in the communities, who also
have access to a firearm.
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SIREN BLARES
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The trial's getting under way
of the man accused of shooting dead
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a nine-year-old girl at her home
in Liverpool last summer.
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Thomas Cashman denies murdering
Olivia Pratt-Korbel in Dovecot.
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Olivia's mother has just arrived
there she is surrounded
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by friends and family.
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The trial was moved from Liverpool
to Manchester
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because they were concerned
at just how strong the feelings
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were in Liverpool, and whether that
trial could be carried out fairly.
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Judge Mrs Justice Yip noted
the details of the case
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will be sensitive, and said
it would be normal for jurors
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to experience emotions.
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But she added, "It's important
you put your emotions aside
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"when listening to the evidence."
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Cashman insisted he
wasn't the gunman.
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He claimed he'd been stitched
up and appearing to become tearful.
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He told the jury, "I'm not
a killer, I'm a dad.
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"I'm getting blamed for something
I haven't done."
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So can you see
Cashman in the courtroom?
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At the beginning, yes.
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but they've pulled the blind
down on the side where I'm sat.
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I'd been told he'd asked
for it to be pulled
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down because we're intimidating.
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Just by looking at him, and I've got
every right to look at him.
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I needed to because I wanted to see
if there was any remorse...
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..and there wasn't.
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Nothing.
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It's listening to him
pleading his innocence,
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which is more frustrating.
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What are you doing just now?
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Um, putting together my victim
impact statement.
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There's so much that I want to put
in...
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..for people to understand,
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and especially Cashman.
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To understand who Liv was...
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..and for him to understand
what he's done.
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Understand what we've lost.
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"Liv never stopped talking.
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"Literally never.
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"I would do and give anything
in the world
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"to have her chatting to me.
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"It's so very lonely without her.
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"She will never get to make her
holy communion,
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"wear that prom dress
or have a Sweet 16 birthday.
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"Walk down the aisle with the man
of her dreams, or become a mother
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"of her own children.
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"This happened in our home
where we felt safe,
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"and that night when I realised Liv
had been shot and needed me...
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"..I was not able to do CPR properly
on her because of my injury.
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"I did not have full use
of my hands and I felt helpless.
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"My worst nightmare was being
separated from Liv...
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"and not being with her when she
needed me the most.
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"I was the first person
to hold my baby girl,
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"and as her mum, I should have been
the last.
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"Now I have to drive to the cemetery
to be close to my baby daughter.
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"I sit with her and talk to her,
telling her I miss her smile,
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"her kisses, her cuddles, her voice.
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"I tell her she will live
on in my heart.
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"She will always be with us.
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"My little shadow.
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"We love you endless amounts, Liv."
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00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:14,840
And you'd like to say that to
Cashman?
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00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:16,040
Yeah.
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00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:23,520
Yeah, very much so.
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Because Liv hasn't got
a voice any more.
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I will be her voice.
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00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:52,920
APPLAUSE
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Hundreds of balloons were released
in Sefton Park in Liverpool
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in honour of Ashley Dale.
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Friends and family gathered
to celebrate her life.
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00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:08,160
So I've known Ashley since
we were two years of age.
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00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:11,280
We've grown up together.
We've done everything together.
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Went to secondary school together,
finished uni at the same time.
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00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:18,320
We should have had many
more milestones to come.
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00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:21,920
30th birthdays, babies, marriages.
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00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:25,920
I can't put into words how we feel
to have her taken from us.
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She had a violent death
for just such a gentle soul.
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If it can happen to Ashley,
it can happen to anyone.
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00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:34,800
And that's the...scariest thing.
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The gun crime in this city
has got to stop.
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00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:40,240
It's got to stop.
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00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:07,040
So we seized this phone,
which is an Encro enabled
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phone from Niall Barry.
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00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:12,480
An Encro phone is a encrypted device.
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00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:17,320
This enables criminals to conduct
their activities undetected.
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It can be anything from supplying
drugs, supplying firearms.
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People like Barry thought that these
messages would stay private,
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00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:28,200
but our colleagues in Europe
cracked the encryption.
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00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:33,480
Detectives discover messages
Nigel Barry sent to Sean Zeisz,
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00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:37,160
a lieutenant in his OCG
who was with him on the night
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of Ashley's murder.
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Barry and Zeisz are shifting serious
quantities of drugs. Oh, yeah.
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00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:54,360
We've got Niall Barry being offered,
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00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:56,120
um, cocaine here.
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00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:59,120
"They look sound, bro.
I'll probably take four, bro.
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00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:02,960
"I'll take the four, and we'll pass
£80,000 up front today."
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00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:05,080
So he's got a lot of cash on him.
236
00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:10,520
Niall Barry's clearly shopping
around for a firearm.
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00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:12,720
Jesus.
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00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:16,920
He's being offered two AK-47s. Nice.
239
00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:20,720
85 sweets. So 85 bullets with each.
Yeah.
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00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:24,600
One TEC-9 self-loading pistol.
241
00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:27,960
Yeah. With either 2 or 400 sweets.
242
00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:33,080
Yeah. Quite interestingly,
one Scorpion with suppressor.
243
00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:39,800
And said, "The scorp will defo have
get us prices."
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The Scorpion submachine gun
was the same weapon that was used
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00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:47,040
to murder Ashley.
Yeah, it was. Yeah.
246
00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:51,280
We've got a conversation
between Niall Barry and Sean Zeisz
247
00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:53,560
regarding firearms here, mate.
248
00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:57,080
They're plotting to attack someone
who's stolen Sean's electric bike.
249
00:17:57,120 --> 00:18:00,080
It's quite scary the way it reads.
Go on.
250
00:18:00,120 --> 00:18:02,480
Barry instructs Zeisz.
251
00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:04,280
"Get that 38.
252
00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:07,320
"Just get that and the scorp."
253
00:18:07,360 --> 00:18:11,000
It looks like he's not scared to use
it as he tells Sean,
254
00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:12,920
"I reckon we blaze both gaffs."
255
00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:17,160
"Just wait for them to run out..."
Yeah.
256
00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:20,160
"..and when they do, just do them."
257
00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:22,760
It sounds like he wants
to shoot him, dunnit?
258
00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:27,960
He certainly does. And Sean
seems to agree - "100%", he says.
259
00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:35,040
Good morning, everyone.
260
00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:39,160
This who were looking to arrest
this morning, Niall Barry.
261
00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:41,520
He was arrested initially on
suspicion of
262
00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:43,000
the murder of Ashley Dale.
263
00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:45,200
However, he is to be arrested
in relation
264
00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:47,440
to a significant drug conspiracy.
265
00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:50,880
He's also to be arrested
for conspiracy to possess a firearm
266
00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:54,080
without certificate and conspiracy
to commit GBH.
267
00:18:59,960 --> 00:19:01,360
What channel are we on?
268
00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:02,800
Six, isn't it?
269
00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:16,040
Yes. Niall Barry.
270
00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:18,520
So it's N-I-A-L-L.
271
00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:23,440
Get your cameras on.
272
00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:25,360
It's open. It's open.
273
00:19:41,360 --> 00:19:43,200
Property-wise, you say you've just
got cash on you,
274
00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:44,360
is that all you've got?
275
00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:46,120
I've got £120 in my pocket.
276
00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:47,600
No problem. OK.
277
00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:01,080
Right. OK.
278
00:20:01,120 --> 00:20:03,280
Boss, we've got Barry.
279
00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:07,880
Sean Zeisz, the man who was with
Barry on the night of Ashley's
280
00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:10,600
murder, is also arrested.
281
00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:16,400
Away from me, mate.
282
00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:18,680
Eh, eh! Don't be making threats in
here.
283
00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:21,200
Tell you that now.
Don't be making threats in here.
284
00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:34,480
This interview is being digitally
audio recorded.
285
00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:41,320
Is your lifestyle funded from you
selling drugs, Niall?
286
00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:51,520
Quantities we have attributed
to yourself are 22.25kg of cocaine,
287
00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:57,520
2.5kg of heroin and 27kg of cannabis.
288
00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:05,080
You're also arrested for conspiracy
to possess a firearm
289
00:21:05,120 --> 00:21:09,360
without a certificate and also
conspiracy to commit GBH.
290
00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:14,440
Have you got any knowledge
of firearms at all, Niall?
291
00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:20,880
Sean Zeisz, that's a friend of yours,
isn't it?
292
00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:23,040
He's someone you do business
with nowadays.
293
00:21:28,120 --> 00:21:30,720
You ever heard the term
"scorp" before, Sean?
294
00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:33,240
Firearms expert suggested
295
00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:36,160
that's a Czechoslovakian self-loading
pistol.
296
00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:41,160
And then you say, "He's gonna have
to get it, ain't he?"
297
00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:42,840
He's going to have to get what?
298
00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:45,680
He's got to get what's coming to him?
299
00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:50,120
"I reckon we blaze both gaffs...
300
00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:53,640
"..shoot at both gaffes and wait for
them to run out.
301
00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:55,600
"When they do, just do them."
302
00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:04,920
Is that you planning an attack
on the individuals responsible...
303
00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:08,560
..for stealing your bike?
304
00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:11,440
Not just an attack, a firearms
attack.
305
00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:14,240
Have we got anything wrong
there at all?
306
00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:16,040
Sean, anything you want to add?
307
00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:19,640
And the interview's now at an end.
308
00:22:24,120 --> 00:22:27,320
Boss, the CPS have got back to us
about Barry and Zeisz.
309
00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:32,840
Ellison's emailed me to say
he's had a look.
310
00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:36,000
He's happy to charge with all
the offences that we thought.
311
00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:37,320
Brilliant!
312
00:22:37,360 --> 00:22:39,960
I want the family to know
first about the arrests
313
00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:41,680
before anything goes out.
314
00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:43,280
Yeah? Thank you.
315
00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:44,600
No problem, no worries.
316
00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:51,240
Right, OK, Sean.
317
00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:53,760
Sean? Yeah.
318
00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:56,440
Can you hear me, mate?
Yeah. Right, OK.
319
00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:59,040
You conspired together with other
persons to supply
320
00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:02,200
a quantity of cocaine - a controlled
drug of class A.
321
00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:03,760
Is there any reply?
322
00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:05,920
No reply.
323
00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:10,680
You conspired together with other
persons to have in your possession
324
00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:14,000
firearms, namely revolvers
and self-loading pistols.
325
00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:17,280
And that's contrary to section 1-1
of the Criminal Law Act '77.
326
00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:19,320
Any reply? No. No.
327
00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:26,160
The charges for Barry and Zeisz
is fantastic news
328
00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:28,680
at this stage of the murder
investigation, because what it means
329
00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:32,400
is they will be remanded
into custody, which ultimately takes
330
00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:34,080
them off the streets.
331
00:23:34,120 --> 00:23:36,360
And just sign here for us, please.
332
00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:44,080
The focus now at all levels across
the team
333
00:23:44,120 --> 00:23:46,240
is for Witham and Peers that remain
334
00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:50,720
on police bail and prove their
involvement in Ashley's murder.
335
00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:02,440
Your bodycam's rolling, isn't it?
336
00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:05,560
Police responding to an incident
in St Helens
337
00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:07,880
make an unexpected discovery.
338
00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:10,160
While I'm here, I'm just going to
check that, because there's
339
00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:12,400
one outstanding for a very
serious offence.
340
00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:16,480
Yep, that's the one.
341
00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:20,520
There's a marker on in relation
to Ashley Dale's murder.
342
00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:22,600
It's the vehicle linked for that.
343
00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:24,840
Don't go anywhere near it.
344
00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:26,520
I knew it was.
345
00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:29,200
It's on a false plate.
And it's on a false plate.
346
00:24:46,120 --> 00:24:49,080
The Hyundai Fastback is examined
for any evidence
347
00:24:49,120 --> 00:24:51,520
that may link it to the shooting.
348
00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:56,000
It's weird seeing it in person.
349
00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:58,120
I've been looking at on CCTV for
weeks and weeks and weeks.
350
00:24:58,160 --> 00:24:59,680
I know, yeah. I know.
351
00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:02,320
Yeah, I'm amazed it's not on a boat
to China.
352
00:25:02,360 --> 00:25:04,600
Fingers crossed they'll find
something that connects
353
00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:06,440
Witham and Peers to this car.
354
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:21,120
Detectives analyse call data from
phones used by the suspects
355
00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:24,080
on the night of Ashley's murder.
356
00:25:24,120 --> 00:25:27,320
Morning, boss. I've just gone
through the CCTV and the telecoms,
357
00:25:27,360 --> 00:25:30,280
and we've produced a sequence
of events.
358
00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:34,120
We've got some CCTV of Joseph Peers
going to the local shop
359
00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:41,040
next to the flat, where we can see
that Peers purchases a SIM card.
360
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:44,240
Now, when we done some enquiries,
that SIM card was used
361
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:46,760
nine minutes later by Barry.
362
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:48,600
First-ever used.
363
00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:50,840
But that makes some significant
calls later on
364
00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:52,520
in the lead-up to the murder.
365
00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:57,440
That's on the CCTV. Obviously, the
two of them have left the flat,
366
00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:00,000
Witham and Peers,
and that's at 2210.
367
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:06,080
You then see at 2243,
that SIM card attempts to make
368
00:26:06,120 --> 00:26:08,400
a one-second phone call to Witham.
369
00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:12,040
But it's Witham just left the flat?
Yes.
370
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:15,520
And then you've also got, ten
seconds later, Barry then tries
371
00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:18,120
to speak to Joseph Peers
for two seconds.
372
00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:21,000
So, because he can't get hold of
Witham, he then tries Peers.
373
00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:22,400
He does, yeah.
374
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:24,800
So, that shows that by that time
they're still together, aren't they?
375
00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:28,080
Yes. Well, he thinks that they're
still together. Yeah.
376
00:26:28,120 --> 00:26:30,440
So, then we move forward.
377
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:35,520
2310, Sean Zeisz makes a 23-second
phone call to Joseph Peers.
378
00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:39,120
That is about 26 minutes before
the tyres are slashed
379
00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:41,840
on Ashley's vehicle.
380
00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:45,320
You'll see from the cell site at
the time, Witham, just before
381
00:26:45,360 --> 00:26:47,960
the tyres are slashed,
his cell site's within the area
382
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:49,640
of Ashley Dale's home address.
383
00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:52,920
Wow. God, that's significant,
isn't it? Yeah.
384
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:58,480
So, we believe that Ashley was
murdered at approximately 0033.
385
00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:02,600
The next phone call we've got
is at 0047.
386
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:07,520
Sean Zeisz makes two attempts calls
to Joseph Peers.
387
00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:11,000
And then we'll see the first
successful contact at 0059.
388
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:16,280
So, about 27 minutes after Ashley
was murdered,
389
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:20,240
and that's Joseph Peers to
Sean Zeisz.
390
00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:22,720
Shortly after that phone call,
391
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:29,320
Niall Barry is checking the
Liverpool Echo, at 1:01 and 1:03.
392
00:27:29,360 --> 00:27:32,520
At 0125, we're seeing James Whitham
and Joseph Peers
393
00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:35,120
returning to the flat.
394
00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:38,880
Whilst they're still in the flat,
at 0138, now Barry's making
395
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:41,840
a further Google search on
the Liverpool Echo,
396
00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:45,040
and that continues into the early
hours of the morning.
397
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:50,320
That is the first press release.
398
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:54,920
So, that's at 0926.
399
00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:59,040
30 minutes later, now Barry
accesses the Liverpool Echo.
400
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:05,040
So, basically, we've got now Barry
and Sean Zeisz in that flat,
401
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:08,560
trying to get hold of the only
two people that have left it. Yes.
402
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:10,840
James Witham and Joseph Peers.
403
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:13,760
This could be enough now to charge
the two of them.
404
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:28,360
Hello. Is it James?
405
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:30,720
What?
What's your name? James.
406
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:32,960
You're currently under arrest
for murder, all right. What?
407
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:34,800
You do not have to say anything,
but it may harm your defence
408
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:37,680
if you don't mention when questioned
something you later rely on
409
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:40,800
in court. Anything you do say
may be given in evidence.
410
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:43,480
Just take a seat in there for me,
mate.
411
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:06,080
Mr Witham, do you know why
you're here?
412
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:12,720
Do you understand that you've been
arrested on suspicion of murder?
413
00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:17,800
The murder of Ashley Dale.
414
00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:23,520
Are you staying silent now
because you've been told to?
415
00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:28,040
Who has the type of power to
silence you like that?
416
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:34,200
So, in your first set of interviews,
we spoke about a vehicle
417
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:39,320
which was key to the offence, which
was, namely, a grey Hyundai i30.
418
00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:42,200
Do you know anything further about
that vehicle at this point?
419
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:43,440
No comment.
420
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:48,240
Merseyside Police have discovered
the grey Hyundai.
421
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:55,640
So, we've forensically examined
the vehicle, James.
422
00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:59,520
And there's one exhibit that I want
to discuss with you,
423
00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:01,800
which is exhibit reference SM81.
424
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:05,000
It's a black bottle top from the
rear nearside footwell
425
00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:06,760
of the vehicle.
426
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:09,560
Your DNA is present on that
bottle top.
427
00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:15,600
To your knowledge, have you and
Joseph, ever shared a bottled drink?
428
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:21,080
The major DNA profile matches
the reference DNA profile
429
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:22,800
for Joseph Peers.
430
00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:26,760
So, can you account of how that
has come to be in that car?
431
00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:29,640
No comment.
432
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:33,040
Because you've been in that car,
simple as that.
433
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:34,720
No comment.
434
00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:41,440
We're going to move on to some
telecoms evidence.
435
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:44,800
Mobile phone number which
we've linked to you,
436
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:49,240
coincidentally, powers down
before the murder takes place.
437
00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:53,400
There's Pilch Lane flat.
438
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:55,400
There's the murder scene.
439
00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:57,360
And there's round about where
you were
440
00:30:57,400 --> 00:30:59,160
when you switched your phone off.
441
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:01,720
Roughly, four-minute journey
in a car.
442
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:06,120
Do you find that interesting, James?
443
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:10,840
Because what's interesting,
as well, is your mate,
444
00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:16,440
Joseph Peers, switches his phone off
at about the same time.
445
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:19,320
And, interestingly,
he switched his back on again
446
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:21,680
three minutes after Ashley
was murdered.
447
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:25,360
Why did your phone go silent?
448
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:30,080
Because it seems to us on the
investigation team that,
449
00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:34,440
well, perhaps you were just about to
go and do something highly illegal.
450
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:36,080
Highly dangerous.
451
00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:39,080
Something that you might get in
a lot of trouble for.
452
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:44,280
Mr Witham, this is your last chance.
453
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:46,760
Do you want to tell us
absolutely anything about anything
454
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:48,240
that we've spelled out here?
455
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:56,320
Are you protecting the person
who murdered Ashley Dale
456
00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:57,800
with your silence?
457
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:03,080
Is it easier not to say anything
and take the repercussions,
458
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:09,960
whatever they may be, than
risk the repercussions of talking?
459
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:14,840
Or is it that there's
an agreed code of silence?
460
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:20,840
I've got no further questions.
Nothing from me.
461
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:37,600
Charge is coming across now.
462
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:39,240
Dead nervous!
463
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:43,960
Has it come through?
464
00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:52,760
Right. Brilliant.
465
00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:56,680
Just had the authorities
to charge through from CPS.
466
00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:59,440
So, are you free now
to put those charges on?
467
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:01,080
Yes. Of course.
I'll put the charge.
468
00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:04,120
Possession of a firearm
and murder for both.
469
00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:06,120
Full Code Test applied.
470
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:10,840
Well done. I know this is a lot
to do, but...fantastic result.
471
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:13,360
I'm just racing out
to the family now.
472
00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:21,520
You all right, James?
473
00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:26,200
So a decision has come back
and you're going to be charged.
474
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:28,200
First charge is one for murder.
475
00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:30,080
On the 21st of August 2022,
476
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:32,400
at Leinster Road,
Liverpool, Merseyside,
477
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:36,040
you murdered Ashley Dale,
contrary to common law.
478
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:38,680
Any reply to that first charge?
479
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:41,040
No.
480
00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:49,320
You, without the authority of
the Secretary of State,
481
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:53,040
purchased or acquired a firearm -
namely a Skorpion machine pistol.
482
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:56,640
And that's contrary to Section 51A
and Schedule 6
483
00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:58,440
of the Firearms Act 1968.
484
00:34:18,720 --> 00:34:20,640
NEWSREADER: Two men have been
remanded in custody,
485
00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:24,440
charged with the murder of
Ashley Dale in Liverpool.
486
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:26,800
They're due to appear again
at Liverpool Crown Court
487
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:27,960
later this week.
488
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:54,640
REPORTER: Thomas Cashman, guilty of
the murder of Olivia Pratt-Korbel...
489
00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:55,760
Yes!
490
00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:58,400
..guilty, in fact,
on all five counts.
491
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:02,080
REPORTER: Gasps and tears,
we're told,
492
00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:04,920
from Olivia's family
as the verdicts returned
493
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:08,480
and Cashman turning back to
his family, shaking his head.
494
00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:18,880
NEWSREADER: We're standing by
for the sentencing
495
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:21,720
at Manchester Crown Court
of Thomas Cashman,
496
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:25,920
found guilty of the murder of
nine-year-old Olivia Pratt-Korbel.
497
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:30,640
While we continue to wait for
the sentencing of Thomas Cashman,
498
00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:32,080
there has been a delay
499
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:36,280
because Thomas Cashman wishes
to be sentenced in his absence.
500
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:38,960
He is refusing to enter
the courtroom.
501
00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:43,200
Mr Cashman has been brought
to court today
502
00:35:43,240 --> 00:35:47,680
but has refused to come from
the cells to be sentenced.
503
00:35:47,720 --> 00:35:52,480
I am therefore left with no choice
but to sentence him in his absence.
504
00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:56,480
I now pronounce the sentence.
505
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:02,760
On count one, for the murder
of Olivia Pratt-Korbel,
506
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:05,760
the sentence will be
life imprisonment.
507
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:08,680
The minimum term will be 42 years...
508
00:36:08,720 --> 00:36:12,240
Oh! ..plus the time the defendant
has already spent on remand.
509
00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:14,560
CHEERING
510
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:22,240
42 years, that's a huge
minimum sentence,
511
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:25,640
which means that he will be 76
512
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:30,560
before he's got any chance
of being released.
513
00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:32,920
My thanks go to the witnesses
514
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:35,880
who bravely assisted
the prosecution case
515
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:39,680
and defied the usual stance of
"People do not grass."
516
00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:45,360
Today's sentence will never
bring Olivia back.
517
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:51,480
I hope that the sentence of 42 years
given to Thomas Cashman today
518
00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:56,920
will act as a deterrent for anyone
who thinks of picking up a gun
519
00:36:56,960 --> 00:37:02,040
and putting our communities at risk
through their reckless behaviour.
520
00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:05,200
Thank you. Thank you all.
521
00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:27,360
We're going to head over that way.
522
00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:29,360
REPORTER: On the streets
of Liverpool
523
00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:33,200
is a family determined
to make itself heard.
524
00:37:33,240 --> 00:37:35,400
Hi! Would you like to support
our online petition today
525
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:38,120
to support Face the Family? It's to
make offenders to stand up in court
526
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:41,360
and face the family
rather than hiding themselves.
527
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:44,280
They're calling for a change
in the law to force criminals
528
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:46,240
to attend their sentencing.
529
00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:49,560
Basically, do you remember
little Olivia?
530
00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:51,240
It's that lady, isn't it? Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
531
00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:53,400
That's Liv, and I'm her sister.
532
00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:57,160
Trying to get as many signatures
as we can,
533
00:37:57,200 --> 00:37:59,480
make this change in the law,
534
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:01,160
not so much to look him in the eye -
535
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:04,680
because I knew he wouldn't look me
in the eye -
536
00:38:04,720 --> 00:38:07,760
but for him to hear the pain
that we went through,
537
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:09,120
the pain that he caused.
538
00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:14,080
PRODUCER: And what was it like
for you when he didn't?
539
00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:16,320
It was like a punch in the stomach.
540
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:19,640
Hi, guys. Would you like to help
sign our petition, please?
541
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:21,400
Face the Family campaign.
542
00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:23,880
Get offenders into the dock.
543
00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:27,800
Going to prison is supposed
to be a rehabilitation.
544
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:31,040
That first port of call
of rehabilitation
545
00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:33,480
should be in that courtroom.
546
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:36,840
Actions speak louder than words,
547
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:38,560
and we said we were going to
make a noise
548
00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:40,760
and that's exactly
what we're doing today.
549
00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:53,680
NEWSREADER: Four men
have each been told
550
00:38:53,720 --> 00:38:56,760
that they will spend
more than 40 years in prison
551
00:38:56,800 --> 00:39:00,200
for murdering Ashley Dale
in Liverpool last August.
552
00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:06,040
REPORTER: The prosecution saying
this was a deliberate and merciless
553
00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:11,040
intent to kill, that James Whitham
and Joseph Peers were dispatched
554
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:15,200
to assassinate Lee Harrison
and leave no witnesses.
555
00:39:15,240 --> 00:39:17,640
REPORTER: Niall Barry, the main
instigator of the shooting,
556
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:20,640
got life with a minimum of 47 years.
557
00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:24,320
Gunman James Witham
will serve at least 43 years,
558
00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:27,480
another plotter, Sean Zeisz,
42 years,
559
00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:31,240
and getaway driver Joseph Peers,
41 years.
560
00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:35,600
As James Witham stormed into
Ashley's home that night,
561
00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:40,040
wearing a balaclava, firing from
a Skorpion submachine gun,
562
00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:45,840
he took away Ashley, an ambitious,
bubbly, charismatic young woman -
563
00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:48,120
the community rocked,
564
00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:50,920
her family and friends
left devastated.
565
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:55,720
Whilst they will never get over
losing their Ashley,
566
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:59,480
following today's results,
I and the rest of the team hope
567
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:01,600
they will find some comfort
in the knowledge
568
00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:05,800
that those responsible will spend
the rest of their lives behind bars.
569
00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:23,840
The biggest thing
that came out for me in the court
570
00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:27,320
was that this feud that had been
going on with the defendant
571
00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:33,040
and Ashley's boyfriend, Lee, Ashley
had major anxieties...over it.
572
00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:36,440
And that came out in court and
we didn't know anything about it.
573
00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:39,880
And that... That is probably
one of the hardest parts for me,
574
00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:44,480
that me and Ashley were so close,
but she didn't feel able to come
575
00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:48,120
and talk about them anxieties
that she had.
576
00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:50,080
I don't think for one minute
she thought that
577
00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:52,760
something this serious would happen,
cos who would?
578
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:55,480
Who would think that someone is
going to burst into your home
579
00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:59,320
at half past midnight at night
and fire 15 shots? No-one.
580
00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:03,680
It doesn't happen, it's not
heard of, but it's happened to us.
581
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:07,440
PRODUCER: What was it like
reading out
582
00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:09,560
your victim impact statement
in court?
583
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:15,640
I felt like that was my only chance
to be able to speak to the defendant
584
00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:19,720
and look them in the eye and tell
them what they've done to my family.
585
00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:22,760
And I addressed James Witham
by name
586
00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:27,840
when I told him that I hope he sees
my baby girl's face every night
587
00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:31,440
when he goes to sleep
and he walked out the dock.
588
00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:36,720
Why do you think he walked out
of the dock?
589
00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:40,080
Cos he knew what he'd done
and, yeah, he couldn't take it.
590
00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:41,520
He couldn't face it.
591
00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:49,240
A couple of months after
this happened to Ashley,
592
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:53,200
her work colleagues thought about
doing, like, a tribute.
593
00:41:53,240 --> 00:41:57,480
We thought the park where she loved
coming would be a perfect place,
594
00:41:57,520 --> 00:42:01,280
somewhere to come
and remember Ashley.
595
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:06,240
She was my daughter. She was,
you know, very important to me.
596
00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:07,280
Sorry.
597
00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:11,520
She loved life.
598
00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:14,000
She just brought joy to us
all the time.
599
00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:18,200
Losing her, it's just left a hole
in our family.
600
00:42:18,240 --> 00:42:21,680
It's just a hole
that will never be filled.
601
00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:35,240
Hi. Morning. Morning. How are you?
Yeah, not too bad. I'm Rishi.
602
00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:37,440
Cheryl. Very nice to see you,
Cheryl. Nice to meet you.
603
00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:41,000
REPORTER: This was the day
Cheryl Korbel's determination
604
00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:44,320
to secure her daughter's legacy
brought her
605
00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:46,280
to the Prime Minister's door.
606
00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:50,960
For the person responsible not to
show up to his sentencing hearing
607
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:53,200
is just profoundly wrong.
608
00:42:53,240 --> 00:42:54,920
It's not... It's not right.
609
00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:58,040
And I could see all the emotion
610
00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:00,760
that you had put into
your impact statement.
611
00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:03,520
And it's not an easy thing to do.
This is the thing.
612
00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:06,680
Like, after you have put all of that
of yourself into it,
613
00:43:06,720 --> 00:43:09,400
for him to just take
the easy way out
614
00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:13,240
and then not have to hear that
and face up to what he's done,
615
00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:14,680
it just... It isn't right.
616
00:43:14,720 --> 00:43:17,480
And that's why today,
we're announcing
617
00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:19,120
that we're going to change that.
618
00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:21,840
So it won't be possible any longer
for people like him
619
00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:23,640
to take the coward's way out.
620
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:29,960
When the Prime Minister met
Cheryl Korbel today, he was able
621
00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:32,960
to pledge that the change in the law
that she and other families
622
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:36,400
have been campaigning for
will now take place.
623
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:39,080
Under new rules, judges
will be able to force offenders
624
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:41,320
to attend sentencing hearings.
625
00:43:52,360 --> 00:43:53,600
Some flowers.
626
00:43:57,560 --> 00:43:58,920
Boss, isn't it?
Yeah.
627
00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:02,120
She's done a boss job of that,
hasn't she?
628
00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:05,560
This is fab. The flowers...
The colours are gorgeous as well.
629
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:12,960
This is Olivia's butterfly garden.
630
00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:16,360
The butterfly was a workshop
that was done in school,
631
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:19,280
the kids from St Margaret Mary's.
632
00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:22,520
A lot of them were Olivia's friends.
633
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:26,720
And I thought it would help
the children to remember Liv.
634
00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:29,080
It's everything that Liv loved -
635
00:44:29,120 --> 00:44:33,640
butterflies, the flowers,
636
00:44:33,680 --> 00:44:35,880
the music notes.
637
00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:37,400
It's so peaceful.
638
00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:40,120
The minute you walk through
the gates,
639
00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:43,440
it's like a ton weight's
been lifted.
640
00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:50,480
You often get a butterfly
or a robin that comes down,
641
00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:53,280
so I feel as though she's here
as well.
642
00:44:57,600 --> 00:45:01,200
PRODUCER: Why is changing the law
important to you?
643
00:45:01,240 --> 00:45:04,040
We see it as Olivia's Law.
644
00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:06,880
For her to be remembered.
645
00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:11,160
Erm... She'll never
be forgotten anyway.
646
00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:18,400
I couldn't help her that night...
647
00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:23,360
..and I managed...
648
00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:27,200
..the change of law in her name.
649
00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:29,640
It's big.
650
00:46:27,720 --> 00:46:31,480
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