Original subtitles

I'm sorry. Nina, I'm sorry. I gave him my money, Ma!

I really wanted it to be right this time.

Please just get it over with. Say I'm fired.

You are going to just have to wait because what you've done,

you don't get to just resign.

I can pick up the girls later. No, it's fine.

It's not like I'm not grateful,

I just don't want them getting too attached.

Oh, yeah. Of course.

Shit.

Leni, no-one can say which way life will fall,

but there are some decisions that you can control.

The end of your life doesn't mean the end of your marriage.

I don't want to miss life.

I want to marry you, Ronnie. Come here, Ruth.

How do we do this?

I don't know.

I've missed him so much, Ma.

It's never too late.

Don't forget about New York.

I love you, Hannah Defoe. The ball's in your court.

Do you love her?

Yes.

Over the last few months here at Love Cast,

I've had the privilege to dig deep

and delve into that age-old question.

Can there ever be the good divorce?

A laying down of arms

and sanguine recognition that not all divorce is failure.

Simply some marriages are finite.

And why do we place so much weight on the idea that things must last.

Surely what constitutes a successful relationship

is knowing when it's over.

Being brave enough to call time.

The desire of two people who have spent their lives together -

good lives together,

who are not willing to throw it all away for a few months of pain,

isn't that what also constitutes a good divorce?

One where memories are left to exist untainted.

Where children are guided through the storm.

Where two people can say, "We did it well.

"We took care of one another,"

even if the marriage is no more.

I tell my clients, be brave.

Don't be afraid.

Who knows what you might find on the other side?

You know I'm OK, right? You know you don't need to stay with me.

Where else am I going to go? Uh, home?

I'm going to a meeting. Good.

Thank you, for, um, pushing me on.

Making me get back out there.

Ah, I know what you're doing.

You need to get back out there too. You need to go home.

Maybe meet the family, Rose. What have you got to lose?

The worst has already happened.

Remember, James's heart is still beating.

Your eleven o'clock's here.

Thanks.

Goldie? Back for another round?

Boxing promoter.

Half her age.

Wow. I know.

Well, look at the diamonds, is all I'm saying.

That woman is doing something very right.

You're not doing so bad yourself.

There she is.

So?

Wow. Uh-huh, 18-carat, white gold.

The rock is...

Congratulations. Not married yet.

Shall we? Oh, yeah, I am ready to sign.

OK, so, I have tried to protect you as best I can in this prenup,

but Mr Mukherjee is undoubtedly...

Loaded.

Yes.

And on his. Third marriage.

Surprising for someone so. Short? Yeah.

Young. He's coming up to...?

Twenty-nine.

Mm-hm.

Hmm.

And we have put in an infidelity penalty clause.

Though, it should be noted that these are, they're unorthodox,

and they're rarely upheld in court.

Bitten once, not twice.

I don't need his money. And he doesn't need mine.

How's Davey?

Heart attack. Poor guy.

Wow.

Go on, Say it.

He's too young, you're too old, it'll never last.

Yeah, you won't be the first or last.

But... he makes me feel fantastic.

You, however...

Never got over him getting caught with his pants down?

It's a little bit more complicated than that.

Give it time.

Goldie...

No, a very good family lawyer told me that once.

Mm-hm.

I was broken after Davey. Humiliated.

YOU helped me fight to get my life back.

You said to me, "Everything you once thought you were,

"everything you thought you knew, that's all in the past."

And you were right.

So now it is time to get back in the ring

and give life a few more rounds.

Change is coming, don't be afraid of the change.

Come to my bridal shower.

Uh...

You need to let your hair down for a night.

Hannah. Have you seen Hannah?

Nathan what...? What are you doing here?

Hannah. What's wrong?

I think I'm having a heart attack.

I've got this... I've got this...

He's fine. I've...

Nathan, slow down. I've got a pain right here.

Do you want me to call an ambulance? He's fine. Take a breath.

It's like a...

...a belt across my chest.

I've... No it's more... I should stand up, really.

Breathe.

You're being ridiculous. It's not a heart attack.

John Candy, Luther Vandross, Chairman Mao.

I'm in a pretty non-exclusive club.

Don't be so dramatic. You're hyperventilating.

It's a panic attack. Feels like a bloody heart attack.

Just sit down. OK.

Take some deep breaths. OK.

Try and relax.

I'm really busy.

Can I get back to my work now?

I talked to Kate.

Right. And?

Didn't go very well.

She does know that there's nothing going on between you and me?

She does know that we did not sleep together?

Yeah, not exactly.

She fled on her bike before I could finish my train of thought.

Oh, God, where are you going with this?

Er, I may, I may have said that my feelings for you are... complex.

Because they are complex, for you.

My... I, well... I have complex feelings for you. Don't you?

No.

Yes, yeah.

But like I have complex feelings for many things, like veganism

and disproportionate amount of time

that Tilly's spending on social media,

but that, that doesn't mean...

I may have also said that...

...I still...love you.

Not still. Not still. I always... will love you.

You still love me?

What am I meant to do with that, Nathan?

You're having a baby with Kate.

If I was to say from today...

...you will never see her again.

How does that make you feel?

I don't get your question.

If this had never happened, if you'd never met Kate,

if she'd never come into your life - one word.

Sad.

Hm.

Doesn't that answer your question, Nathan?

Hannah. I have to go.

No, we have to talk. Isn't that what lawyers are for?

Incidentally you might want to talk to yours,

she's counter-fired with a pretty blistering attack.

Hannah, wait.

I don't want to do this.

I don't want to get divorced.

What if we're making a mistake?

Hannah?

You're frightened.

You're just frightened.

I get that.

But don't confuse that with believing that you and I...

- I'm not. - Nathan.

We can't fix this, Nathan.

Thank you.

Hi, there, I've got Mr Stern in reception for you.

Tell them that I'm not in for the rest of the day.

No more calls, alright?

Apologies. The press have been going crazy.

But, if you can't beat them, join them, as they say.

Oh, yes, yes, your son.

Yes, I've just got off the phone with Long Lost Family.

Could you take that to my office?

Don't you just adore Davina McCall?

But everything has turned out rather well, overall.

Although I won't let him call me mother. Or grandmother.

And rather irritatingly,

his children find it highly amusing to call me Melania.

One son, two grandsons - instant family.

Slightly claustrophobia-inducing but it could be worse.

And, to be honest, as a unit they are rather easy on the eye,

bar the wife who could afford to lose a few pounds.

But I have to say it has been really marvellous for my profile.

Right, now, I think we go back in, and hard.

While they do their little financial tap dance

we fire back on the value of her share in the partnership.

I'd like to see you get at least a quarter.

No.

No sorry, no, no, no, you're right. Half.

Yours was a partnership that

enabled her to have such a successful career.

I mean. No.

You are a terrible woman, Melanie.

But what else is your lawyer for?

Terrible is my raison d'etre.

I don't want a quarter of Hannah's shares.

I don't want to be talking to you in this god-awful office.

You're a terrible, terrible person, Melanie.

You've never asked me what I want.

You just tell people what they're going to get.

At whatever cost.

Let's be frank, sweetheart.

If you wanted it any other way...

I would have gone to Hannah.

Touche.

Hi, you're through to the transplant family liaison office.

Alison speaking. How may I help you?

Hi, hi. It's Rose.

Cutler.

Hi, good to hear from you.

Hi. How are you?

Yeah, yeah I'm good.

Um...

So, yeah.

I just wanted to know whether... well, if the family,

if they might be free tomorrow.

The family are very eager to meet you.

- Mm. - I'm so glad you've reached out.

Let me liaise with them and get back to you. Hm?

OK.

Yep.

It's the same old, same old. Get up. Say this time will be different.

It's not.

Every time, every time - same excuse.

Same self-deception.

Oh, it is you.

I didn't realise you...

See you. Bye.

I actually prefer the Chelsea meetings.

There's a lot more interesting people

and the occasional blue blood.

But I come here when I don't want to see anyone I know.

So, I hear you were shafted.

Go on.

What? Oh, rip you apart?

No you have to do that yourself, darling.

Step four.

Take a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

We're dry drunks, sweetheart.

We still do damage, often to others,

but most of all to ourselves.

I shagged my best friend's boyfriend when I was 14.

Then at 22, husband of a woman I worked for.

Can't remember his name.

Er, at 25, didn't know the wife, didn't care anyway.

I lost count after that.

Felt nothing. Always felt nothing.

Feel nothing.

I've stolen. From shops. From friends.

- From my family. - Mm-hm.

So, I guess you could call recent events karma.

Haven't had a drink in ten months? That's great.

Yeah. Weirdly, that's been the easiest part.

- Mm-hm. - Dry drunk?

That sounds about right.

Stone cold sober, I can still do all of the above.

I don't like myself.

But worse...

I've got this tiny baby,

tiny little thing staring back at me with such love.

Because she doesn't know how truly horrible her mother is.

Not yet.

I can't bear for her ever to see it.

Then you'd better put in the work, darling.

One day at a time, sweetheart. One day at a time.

Go home.

Hug that little girl.

And do better.

That's what I tell myself anyway.

Bye, bye. Bye.

Hannah, I fired Melanie.

I don't want to do it like this.

It's a complete balls up, with you, Kate...

What do I do about Kate?

Argh. Anyway, bye.

Hi. Can I come in?

Lot of plants.

When we moved into our first flat,

Nathan's mother bought us a yucca plant.

Died within a month.

And for years Nathan thought it was because of him.

I didn't try and dispel the myth.

But I killed it.

Who knew yuccas don't like coffee grounds?

Why are you here? He watered it.

Not much, just enough.

He does that.

Blanket fell off the kids at night. He'd be the one have to check.

He's quietly amazing, Nathan.

Hard to give up. Hannah...

I finished your book.

Didn't love it but it.

But it packs a punch.

What it doesn't say, though, is we can coat it in words,

we can find a 'language' and a 'narrative'

to house the inevitable fallout of divorce.

But to really...

...capture its quiet brutality,

that's something that can't be written.

That's something you can only feel, you have to feel. You...

Otherwise, how else do you leave a marriage?

You know anything worth its salt has roots that have grown deep.

They have to be.

To tether you through the elements that inevitably hit along the way.

But if it's died...

...it's died.

Still doesn't mean it doesn't take a tug to lift it out the ground.

But that tug you're feeling,

that's not because something is alive.

It's because it's died

and it needs to come out to let something new grow.

Some other life in.

So, what I am trying to say is...

You can do worse than Nathan.

You might find you can't do better.

Why are you telling me this?

Because I love him.

And he loves you,

and so by default I care about what happens to you and him.

And my children.

Who will welcome this new person, once they get their heads around it.

And I want to be there to support them, you, this.

You don't even like me.

I don't have to like you.

I have to live with you.

And you have to live with me.

That's the deal.

That's the best I can offer.

Quite some terms.

I'm a lawyer.

What do you expect?

It's not neat, Nathan and I.

But we're broken.

And we can't stay together, broken,

just because we're frightened of change.

You're the change.

You're the change.

You didn't kill it.

The yucca.

Coffee grounds, loads of nitrogen.

Yuccas like nitrogen.

Huh.

So, just keep blaming him, then?

Probably for the best.

I'm not going to talk to you. I'm not going to do that shit.

OK. 'Cause I'm so... so bloody angry with you James, like, REALLY angry.

How could you be so stupid? And then...

And you never heard my message.

You never heard me saying I was sorry

and of course I wanted that life with you...

...so much.

But you're not here.

You can't hear this, so...

Where are you? Because I... I can't feel you anymore.

I used to feel you, you know, like, when you walked in the door.

And now you're dead, and...

I don't believe in heaven and, there's no ghosts.

So if you could just come back?

Please. Just a second.

Because I need to know that I wasn't wrong.

And that you did exist.

We did exist.

Rose. Rose!

You coming home?

No, I, Um... I was just passing by, so...

Please!

No, I... Please, please!

Please.

Um. Please, please.

No, it's... I should go.

I know I'm a terrible cook,

but there's always something worth defrosting in the freezer.

Uh...

Please say yes!

Come on. Eat with us.

OK.

Come on girls. Oh, watch yourself.

Hello, scamp. I like your dress.

Leni...

Uh, the boys aren't back until...

Actually, it's you I wanted to talk to.

I've travel led the world with you, Felix.

Dived in Thailand, climbed volcanoes in Costa Rica.

Had some of my best adventures, lived my best life, with you.

But this is one journey you can't come with me on.

No.

I know what death looks like.

Been preparing for a lifetime.

And I'll be ready.

When it comes.

Sweet man. I won't let you do it.

I will care for you.

I will be by your side.

I will not let this happen to you alone.

I can't.

So, I reject your attempts to push me away,

I reject your attempts to end us,

I reject your desire to leave me,

I reject divorce.

I do not, I will not, leave you.

Everyone has to leave someone one day.

Not yet.

Not yet.

Damn.

Like I said, terrible spy.

You're the one creeping out. Thanks for today.

Oh, that's alright.

Who knew smiley faces would go so well with Jeanette's ragu?

Um, sorry about yesterday.

About picking up the girls. Ah, yeah.

Quite the brush off.

But, no, I, I am sorry,

because that's the last thing I would want to do,

brush you off, brush you in anyway.

I, we, very much want... Where am I going here?

Stop. Just stop.

Stop.

I'm going to go.

Rose. Yeah?

Maybe...

You have to let go of the life planned

if you want the life waiting for you.

Ahh, no, no, you got me there.

Is that Tears for Fears or Kurt Cobain?

Busted I knew it.

It was stuck on the wall of the dentist's yesterday.

You are wasted on the church.

If you can love that strongly, you'll love again.

You should, try these moves on Jeanette.

Might get lucky.

One day.

Felix, thanks for coming in today.

My understanding is that you and Leni have talked now.

Yes.

We appreciate how difficult this is,

but, on our advice, Leni would like to make an advance decision

to refuse treatment,

under Section 24 of the MCA 2005,

otherwise known as a Living Will.

My colleague is a private client solicitor

and she's going to talk you through it.

But, loosely speaking,

it's an advance directive, in light of Leni's illness,

that will ensure her wishes are carried out.

It is also my understanding that, after discussion,

alongside that, you are also willing to look at

possible continuing and palliative care,

with the full support of your family, Leni.

Yes.

But that if or when this becomes too difficult,

you will proceed with your original plan.

Yes.

As man and wife.

Absolutely.

As man and wife.

And beyond that, I'm right to presume

that you will no longer require our services?

Yes. Yes.

Then with your lawyer in attendance,

Angela will now go through what this means for both of you

in the future.

With your consent, we should talk Felix through this document

and your instructions.

See you Sunday. Yeah.

The boys are really looking forward to seeing you.

Yes. Absolutely. Yes.

Thank you.

It was great to see you. See you soon.

You've got this. You too.

Hannah, so I was wondering if you would like to grab dinner sometime?

I'm not looking to be poached.

That's... that's not what I'm asking.

Oh.

Just, Let me know if the time's ever right.

Mm-hm!

See you at four.

Aren't Melanie and Nathan coming in?

Oh, actually, um...

About that...

Hi. Hi.

OK, so we get 18 more months here.

And then I sell, and we divide the sale proceeds.

Yep.

I get first pick on paintings, you get books.

Right, agreed.

Now health cover, you obviously have another life to think of,

so I'm happy to transfer the policy

so that it covers both Kate and the new baby.

Right.

You've got to start thinking about these things.

Yeah.

Now, holidays. Do you know I'm happy to split these.

Yeah.

Though if I could take Christmas Day this year.

Yeah, like I said, box set and Five Guys.

OK. Weekends. You get every other weekend.

They spend the weekdays here.

Bar Wednesday. You get them Wednesday.

Either at yours or here.

And finally... wills.

We'll need to get them redrawn. I'm not going anywhere yet.

You can't say that.

I'm not going anywhere, Hannah.

Yes, you are.

Every night when I go to bed...

...you're not in it.

Every wall, every photo,

every inch of my life, I've shared with you, Nathan,

so, for you not to be there...

Um, it's going to take, time.

But, slowly, I'll do it.

And we'll fill the space with other things.

Other people.

Because it's time, Nathan.

It's time.

I love you, Ms Defoe.

Always, Mr Stern.

We're home.

Oh, Vinnie. Not in the house.

Sorry. You done?

Hey.

Ahh, thank you.

Vinnie, come here.

Gael, come on.

I'm going to go outside. I blame you for this.

What, he made me? Is that a long board?

Yeah. Right, come on, then, show me.

You sure you want to do this?

Alright?

Alright.

I, um... I'm not going to to do law.

OK.

I'm going to do Spanish.

- In Argentina. - Mm-hm.

With Gael.

Yep, I'm going to back with Gael.

But just as we are.

Just as it is.

Until we're older.

What, like, really old like me and your dad?

No, not that old.

But not now.

Just as we are. You know, like, no wedding.

Yep.

- That sounds like a plan. - Mm.

I was actually thinking that maybe...

Yeah, I could tell Dad? Yeah.

No.

I'm leaving that in your capable hands.

Am I too early?

No, perfect time.

I can't cook and rumour has it you can.

Plant. Ah.

Highly unlikely to survive, but...

Thank you.

They're outside. Thank you.

See, I can't... I mean, I can do that.

-This? Definitely. -Come on, Dad.

Alright, don't let me go this time, OK?

That's fine. You're letting me go.

No, no, no. Yes, it's moving.

That is... It was good.

Much harder than it...

Hi. Hey, what...?

Hannah invited me.

Hi.

Zander... Nothing to say.

Just keep doing what you're doing, Nina.

You've got a lot of money to make up.

Oh, God.

Rose. Hi.

Come in. Come in.

Um, Rav's just out the back.

Rav. Um, this is Rose.

Thank you.

And those rascals over there, that's Jey and there's Shriyan.

Cute rascals.

Um... Just over...

Yeah, just there.

Sorry it's a bit cold.

Can you hear?

Still ticking.

Hey.

I've thought about it, Christie.

We're walking along the High Line and you're holding my hand,

and we're stopping for bagels and...

It's not just the two of us.

Vinnie's there.

And Liv and Tilly.

And my family are there.

I love you Christie, I do.

But I want life, not a fantasy.

It'll never be just the two of us.

And my life's here in London, with my family.

So, if you want that too...

Don't say yet. Just think about it.

Well, ladies and gentlemen,

thank you very much for coming on this very special occasion

to share it with us.

Ruth Alice Defoe...

Forever Defoe.

Little bit to the left.

I've tried, over the years, to be on hand,

waiting, hoping and finally - finally! -

I think it's fair to say that I have won.

Finally.

But I want to talk about legacy.

The myriad of memories and tiny moments that make up a life.

I want to say take care of them,

hold them gently in your hands.

And remind yourself that nothing is promised.

That this little life of ours is less about what we've earned

and what we've gathered,

and more who we've loved.

And who we leave behind.

I've always known that it's less about the life lived

and more about who you live that life with.

And I'm oh, so grateful

that this family has let me share my life with them

so close by their side.

So if I might ask you to raise your glass, family.

All family.

Happy wife...

Happy life.

Happy life.

Hello, and welcome to my podcast.

Today, I'm interviewing two people I know very well.

My daughter, Hannah Defoe,

one of London's leading family lawyers,

and my son-in-law, Nathan Stern -

once married, now divorced.

And I wanted to talk to them

and ask them what is the secret to the good divorce?

They say that you never really know a man until you divorce him.

Mm, well, I can vouch that is true.

But no one tells you how hard divorce really is.

And expensive.

And though we make vows to love and hon our,

for better or for worse,

in sickness and in health...

...those vows are hard to keep.

Yet still, we put so much score on the wedding.

The happy ending.

The double-page photo spread.

The Instagram posts of the perfect honeymoon.

-Bye, darlings. -Bye.

I love you. Love you too Grandma.

See you soon. And you Ronnie.

I miss you!

Bye.

Have the most wonderful time! Bye, love you!

We forget to put as much care, as much love,

into the way we divorce.

- Amazing day. - Mm. Here.

Amazing life.

But it certainly costs us more.

More than any wedding, more than... all the memories

and the photos and the shared stories

that we... lace our lives together with.

I tell my clients it's easy to marry.

What's hard is to know how to divorce.

Thank you for a lovely day.

Kids with us tomorrow. Uh-huh.

It already is tomorrow.

Night, night. Night.

Night, Hannah. Night mum.

So, what? No bad behaviour?

No acrimonious mudslinging?

Oh, hell, no, there's plenty of that.

But after the shouting, after the war,

I tell my clients if they can lay down their weapons,

their accusations, their resentments, their regrets...

Love you.

Love you more.

...wait for the ringing in their ears to be silenced,

and for the dust to settle on what's left of their lives...

...if they can stop...

...and breathe,

and listen to what life has to offer next...

Sometimes they've been battling for so long...

...they've forgotten that...

...above the parapet...

...there's birdsong.

Captions by Red Bee Media

Copyright Australian Broadcasting Corporation