Original subtitles

[birds singing]

Okay, so it is 8:30 in the morning.

And, "Why am I awake?" you ask. [clicks tongue]

Well, it's kind of a long story.

Um, I sort of unexpectedly started writing the new album,

and, at that point, I was just like,

"Oh, I'm just writing songs in quarantine," and then they're--

It just became an album really quickly

and really, really kind of beautifully, surprisingly.

And, so...

You can't go into studios now because they're all closed,

and I've never recorded anywhere else.

Um, and I know that other people do this all the time,

so it's actually not that special, but I'm freaking out over it.

We've built a home studio in my house.

And so, it's, like-- I'm gonna do vocals today in my house.

It's-- I'm very excited about it.

[sighs]

Okay, so over there is where my recording booth is,

and then on the other side of the wall... Laura!

-[Sisk chuckles] Hey. -[Swift] Yeah.

Jack?

Holy shit.

It's like you're right there, but instead, you're in New York.

I'm freaking out. We've never done this.

This is crazy.

-First day we've been in the same room. -Cheers. Yeah.

First moment.

That's so weird.

I think when lockdown happened,

I just found myself completely listless and purposeless and...

That-- Then that was in the first three days of it.

And then-- And then I remembered

-when we met a year before. -[man] Yeah.

And I'd come to The National show,

and afterward you would come up and talk to me, and you were so nice.

And I was like, "How do you guys write songs?"

You were like, "We all live in different places, so sometimes I'll just make tracks

and send them around and send them to Matt."

And I just kind of thought to myself,

"If there was ever an opportunity to work with someone I was such a fan of

who could work like that, that would be so cool."

Then lockdown happened, and I texted you, and I was like,

"Hey. Would you even wanna work? Do you-- Are you in that place right now?"

And I was like, "I don't know if this is a real text.

-I'm not sure." -[Swift laughs]

Seemed like a bit? Like a friend--

Well, I was like, "Is someone pretending? No."

I feel like it's also--

One of the reasons why it resonates with me so much is because

in the dismantling of all our systems of life that we've known in the pandemic,

you're left with two options.

You either cling to it and try to make it work

or to just say, "Well, I guess I'm just gonna chart a new path,"

and kinda get a frontier mentality.

And I think it was such a thrilling use of quarantine to say like,

"Well, everything's a blur, so I'm just gonna rewrite it."

Yeah.

I-- I didn't even tell my label until a week before we put it out

-that it existed. -What was that call like?

It was amazing.

I thought it was gonna be stressful,

and I thought I was gonna have to kind of stand up,

with shaking hands being like, "I promise I know what I'm doing.

I know that there's not, like, a big single,

and I'm not doing, like, a big pop thing, and I'm not--"

But they-- My label was like, "Whatever you wanna make, we're down."

You ready to play this whole thing?

Yeah, no. I-- I-- I think it's really important that we play it.

I think it will take that for me to realize that it's a real album.

-Seems like a big mirage. -[Antonoff] It does.

Never worked on an album like this.

Me neither.

Yeah.

I don't know if I ever will again.

Like, I don't know if it's how albums are meant to be made.

It just worked right now.

There's something about the complete and total uncertainty about life

that causes endless anxiety,

but there's another part that causes sort of a release

-of the pressures that you used to feel. -[Antonoff] Mm.

Because if we're going to have to recalibrate everything,

we should start with what we love the most first.

And I think that was what we were sort of unconsciously doing with this.

-[Antonoff] Totally. That is it exactly. -Yeah.

If everything's gonna fall apart, then make a record.

And I was so glad that we did because it turned out that,

like, everybody needed a good cry as well as us.

♪ I'm doing good I'm on some new shit ♪

♪ Been saying "yes" instead of "no" ♪

♪ I thought I saw you at the bus stop I didn't though ♪

♪ I hit the ground running each night ♪

♪ I hit the Sunday matinee ♪

♪ You know the greatest films of all time Were never made ♪

♪ I guess you never know, never know ♪

♪ And if you wanted me You really should've showed ♪

♪ And if you never bleed You're never gonna grow ♪

♪ And it's all right now ♪

♪ We were something Don't you think so? ♪

♪ Roaring twenties Tossing pennies in the pool ♪

♪ And if my wishes came true ♪

♪ It would've been you ♪

♪ In my defense I have none ♪

♪ For never leaving well enough alone ♪

♪ But it would've been fun ♪

♪ If you would've been the one ♪

♪ I have this dream You're doing cool shit ♪

♪ Having adventures on your own ♪

♪ You meet some woman on the Internet And take her home ♪

♪ We never painted by the numbers, baby ♪

♪ But we were making it count ♪

♪ You know the greatest loves Of all time are over now ♪

♪ I guess you never know, never know ♪

♪ And it's another day waking up alone ♪

♪ But we were something Don't you think so? ♪

♪ Roaring twenties Tossing pennies in the pool ♪

♪ And if my wishes came true ♪

♪ It would've been you ♪

♪ In my defense I have none ♪

♪ For never leaving well enough alone ♪

♪ But it would've been fun ♪

♪ If you would've been the one ♪

♪ I persist And resist the temptation to ask you ♪

♪ If one thing had been different ♪

♪ Would everything be different today? ♪

♪ We were something Don't you think so? ♪

♪ Rosé flowing with your chosen family ♪

♪ And it would've been sweet ♪

♪ If it could've been me ♪

♪ In my defense I have none ♪

♪ We digging up the grave another time ♪

♪ But it would've been fun ♪

♪ If you would've been the one ♪

♪ Ooh ♪

It was funny because I-- I feel like you captured the spirit

of the whole record with that song.

With "the 1" in the sense of just the way it opens, um,

"I'm doing good. I'm on some new shit. Been saying 'yes' instead of 'no',"

and I was like, "Is she talking about writing songs with me

and everything else at the same time or something--"

I think it has a new-- I think it has a double meaning. The--

Opening the album with the words,

"I'm doing good. I'm on some new shit. Been saying 'yes' instead of 'no'."

Um, it-- it applies to the situation that the song is written about where,

you know, you're updating a former lover on what your life is like now

and trying to be positive about it.

But it was also where I am creatively, where it's like, "I'm just saying yes.

I'm just putting out an album in the worst time you could put one out.

I'm just making stuff with someone who I've always wanted to make stuff with

as long as I've been a fan of The National. And--

I'm just gonna say 'yes' to stuff."

-Yeah. -And it worked out.

♪ Vintage tee, brand new phone ♪

♪ High heels on cobblestones ♪

♪ When you are young They assume you know nothing ♪

♪ Sequin smile, black lipstick ♪

♪ Sensual politics ♪

♪ When you are young They assume you know nothing ♪

♪ But I knew you ♪

♪ Dancing in your Levi's Drunk under a streetlight ♪

♪ I... ♪

♪ I knew you ♪

♪ Hand under my sweatshirt Baby, kiss it better ♪

♪ I... ♪

♪ And when I felt like I was an old cardigan ♪

♪ Under someone's bed ♪

♪ You put me on And said I was your favorite ♪

♪ A friend to all is a friend to none ♪

♪ Chase two girls, lose the one ♪

♪ When you are young They assume you know nothing ♪

♪ But I knew you ♪

♪ Playing hide-and-seek and Giving me your weekends ♪

♪ I... ♪

♪ I knew you ♪

♪ Your heartbeat on the High Line Once in 20 lifetimes ♪

♪ I... ♪

♪ And when I felt like I was an old cardigan ♪

♪ Under someone's bed ♪

♪ You put me on And said I was your favorite ♪

♪ To kiss in cars and downtown bars ♪

♪ Was all we needed ♪

♪ You drew stars around my scars ♪

♪ But now I'm bleeding ♪

♪ 'Cause I knew you ♪

♪ Stepping on the last train Marked me like a bloodstain ♪

♪ I... ♪

♪ I knew you ♪

♪ Tried to change the ending Peter losing Wendy ♪

♪ I... ♪

♪ I knew you ♪

♪ Leaving like a father Running like water ♪

♪ I... ♪

♪ 'Cause when you are young They assume you know nothing ♪

♪ But I knew you'd linger Like a tattoo kiss ♪

♪ I knew you'd haunt all of my what-ifs ♪

♪ The smell of smoke Would hang around this long ♪

♪ 'Cause I knew everything When I was young ♪

♪ I knew I'd curse you For the longest time ♪

♪ Chasing shadows in the grocery line ♪

♪ I knew you'd miss me Once the thrill expired ♪

♪ And you'd be standing In my front porch light ♪

♪ And I knew you'd come back to me ♪

♪ You'd come back to me ♪

♪ And you'd come back to me ♪

♪ And you'd come back ♪

♪ And when I felt like I was an old cardigan ♪

♪ Under someone's bed ♪

♪ You put me on And said I was your favorite ♪

[Dessner] Beautiful. [chuckles]

-That was so fun. -[Dessner] Yeah.

Oh, God. This is such a blast.

This is a real, real damn blast. You know that?

-You know what this is? A real blast. -[Dessner] Yeah, that was beautiful. Yeah.

When you sent me the track for "last great american dynasty,"

I had been wanting to write a song about Rebekah Harkness

since 2013, probably.

And I'd never figured out the right way to do it

because there was never a track that felt like it could,

kinda hold an entire story of somebody's life and whatever

-and move between generations. -Yeah.

Then when I heard that, I was like, "Oh, my God. I think this is my opening.

I think this is my moment. I think I can write the Rebekah Harkness story."

That song is such a folklore moment to me

because it's not about you, but it is all about you.

-And it's like-- -Well, it's that country music,

kind of, narrative device where in country music it's like...

♪ This guy did this Then this woman did this ♪

♪ Then they met And their kid was me ♪

Totally. Yeah, yeah. "And I was that man that I've been talking about."

Yeah, "I was that kid." Like-- Which is the best.

You listen to country songs,

and you're just like, shivers, everywhere. My whole body.

Even though it's not till the very end when you spin it around,

even though the story's about someone else,

I think it's the most revealing thing.

-I think it's-- it's so deeply personal. -Aw.

It really hits you in the gut when you hear that at the end.

Thanks.

-It's real good. -Man.

♪ Rebekah rode up on the afternoon train It was sunny ♪

♪ Her saltbox house on the coast Took her mind off St. Louis ♪

♪ Bill was the heir To the Standard Oil name and money ♪

♪ And the town said "How did a middle-class divorcée do it?" ♪

♪ The wedding was charming If a little gauche ♪

♪ There's only so far new money goes ♪

♪ They picked out a home And called it "Holiday House" ♪

♪ Their parties were tasteful If a little loud ♪

♪ The doctor had told him to settle down ♪

♪ It must have been her fault His heart gave out ♪

♪ And they said ♪

♪ "There goes The last great American dynasty ♪

♪ Who knows, if she never showed up What could've been ♪

♪ There goes the maddest woman This town has ever seen ♪

♪ She had a marvelous time Ruining everything" ♪

♪ Rebekah gave up On the Rhode Island set forever ♪

♪ Flew in all her Bitch Pack friends From the city ♪

♪ Filled the pool with champagne And swam with the big names ♪

♪ And blew through the money on the boys And the ballet ♪

♪ And losing on card game bets with Dalí ♪

♪ And they said ♪

♪ "There goes The last great American dynasty ♪

♪ Who knows, if she never showed up What could've been ♪

♪ There goes the most shameless woman This town has ever seen ♪

♪ She had a marvelous time Ruining everything" ♪

♪ They say she was seen on occasion ♪

♪ Pacing the rocks Staring out at the midnight sea ♪

♪ And in a feud with her neighbor ♪

♪ She stole his dog And dyed it key lime green ♪

♪ Fifty years is a long time ♪

♪ Holiday House sat quietly On that beach ♪

♪ Free of women with madness Their men and bad habits ♪

♪ And then it was bought by me ♪

♪ Who knows, if I never showed up What could have been ♪

♪ There goes the loudest woman This town has ever seen ♪

♪ I had a marvelous time Ruinin' everything ♪

♪ I had a marvelous time Ruining everything ♪

♪ A marvelous time ruining everything ♪

♪ A marvelous time ruinin' everything ♪

♪ A marvelous time ♪

I only wish our other two co-writers were here.

-[Antonoff] Who? -Justin Vernon and William Bowery.

Justin is, uh-- is, uh, one of the greatest ever.

William, I never got to meet.

There's been a lot of discussion about William Bowery and his identity

'cause... it's not a real person.

It's not?

Jack.

I'm doin' a bit.

A bit. That would've gone on forever.

What?

-[Swift] Who? -When?

So, William Bowery is Joe, as we know.

And Joe-- Joe plays piano beautifully, and he's always just playing

and making things up and kind of creating things.

And "exile" was crazy

'cause Joe had written that entire piano part, that... [scats]

And it was singing the Bon Iver part. The...

♪ I can see you standing, honey With his arms around your body ♪

Jesus.

♪ Laughin' but the joke's Not funny at all ♪

-And I-- -Lyrics too?

-Yeah, he was just singing it... -Jesus.

...the way that the whole first verse is.

-[Antonoff] Wow. -And so, I was entranced

and asked if, um, we could keep writing that one.

It was pretty obvious that it should be a duet

'cause he's got such a low voice and it sounded really good

-sung down there and in that register. -Yeah.

And then, um, we're really, really, really big Bon Iver fans. And, you know.

-So cool. -We know that Aaron knows him.

But we're-- I-- I was too afraid to suggest it.

But, I just-- When I sent it to Aaron, I was like,

"This is, uh, hopefully a duet. We-- I don't know who with.

Who would it be with? Who do you think would be good with this?"

And Aaron was like, "I think Justin would love this."

[Antonoff] You're like, "Okay, that could be interesting."

-I couldn't say it. I couldn't say it. -Really? Is that really what happened?

No, I couldn't say it with words.

Because if I would have said it and he would have gone to Justin,

and Justin would've said no, it would've hurt too much.

[Antonoff] Interesting.

When we talked about it, I was like,

"I think he's gonna be really inspired by this."

And then we sent it to him, and he was.

And then the process of working on it and what he sent back.

And he wrote-- Like, we didn't ask him to write anything,

-but he wrote this, like-- -Yeah. He wrote this amazing bridge.

-[Antonoff hums] -He wrote...

♪ So step right out There is no amount ♪

...and like, that whole bit.

I kept thinking, "This isn't really going to happen.

Like, Justin is going to change his mind about this

because this isn't a part of my reality.

There's no way that this is going to happen.

He's gonna record the vocals

and then decide he doesn't want to be on the record."

And then, it just never-- That just never happened.

Like, he just is on the album, and he's just the coolest,

and that's what's happening.

♪ I can see you standing, honey ♪

♪ With his arms around your body ♪

♪ Laughin' but the joke's Not funny at all ♪

♪ And it took you five whole minutes ♪

♪ To pack us up and leave me with it ♪

♪ Holdin' all this love Out here in the hall ♪

♪ I think I've seen this film before ♪

♪ And I didn't like the ending ♪

♪ You're not my homeland anymore ♪

♪ So what am I defending now? ♪

♪ You were my town Now I'm in exile, seein' you out ♪

♪ I think I've seen this film before ♪

♪ Ooh, ooh, ooh ♪

♪ Ooh, ooh, ooh ♪

♪ Ooh, ooh, ooh ♪

♪ I can see you starin', honey ♪

♪ Like he's just your understudy ♪

♪ Like you'd get Your knuckles bloody for me ♪

♪ Second, third, and hundredth chances ♪

♪ Balancin' on breaking branches ♪

♪ Those eyes add insult to injury ♪

♪ I think I've seen this film before ♪

♪ And I didn't like the ending ♪

♪ I'm not your problem anymore ♪

♪ So who am I offending now? ♪

♪ You were my crown Now I'm in exile, seein' you out ♪

♪ I think I've seen this film before ♪

♪ So I'm leaving out the side door ♪

♪ So step right out ♪

♪ There is no amount Of crying I can do for you ♪

♪ All this time ♪

♪ We always walked a very thin line ♪

♪ You didn't even hear me out ♪

♪ You never gave no warning sign ♪

♪ All this time ♪

♪ I never learned to read your mind ♪

♪ Never learned to read my mind ♪

-♪ I couldn't turn things around ♪ -♪ You never turned things around ♪

-♪ 'Cause you never gave no warning sign ♪ -♪ I gave so many signs ♪

[together] ♪ So many signs ♪

♪ So many signs ♪

♪ You didn't even see the signs ♪

♪ I think I've seen this film before ♪

♪ And I didn't like the ending ♪

♪ You're not my homeland anymore ♪

♪ So what am I defending now? ♪

♪ You were my town Now I'm in exile, seein' you out ♪

♪ I think I've seen this film before ♪

♪ So I'm leaving out the side door ♪

♪ So step right out ♪

♪ There is no amount ♪

♪ Of crying I can do for ya ♪

♪ All this time ♪

♪ We always walked a very thin line ♪

-♪ You didn't even hear me out ♪ -♪ Didn't even hear me out ♪

♪ You never gave no warning signs ♪

-♪ I gave so many signs ♪ -♪ All this time ♪

♪ I never learned to read your mind ♪

♪ Never learned to read my mind ♪

♪ I couldn't turn things around ♪

♪ You never turned things around ♪

♪ You never gave no warning signs ♪

-♪ I gave so many signs ♪ -♪ All this time ♪

♪ So many signs ♪

[together] ♪ So many signs ♪

[Vernon vocalizing]

[Swift vocalizing]

[both vocalizing]

Where do we start? I mean, to me the whole thing starts

with "my tears ricochet."

Yeah. Chronologically, that's the first thing.

I wrote that one alone.

And it's definitely, I think, one of the saddest songs on the album.

Yeah. I think it's one of the best songs you've written.

Aw, thanks.

Which is I think why you crowned it as a track five.

Yeah, picking a track five is sort of a pressurized decision,

but I knew from day one this was probably gonna be it.

-Um, it's kind of a song about karma. -Yeah.

It's a song about greed.

It's a song about how somebody could be your best friend

and your companion and your most trusted person in your life

and then they could go and become your worst enemy

who knows how to hurt you because they were once your most trusted person.

-It's the worst betrayal. -Yeah.

It does remind me of people going through a divorce

and having that person that they swore to be with forever

then become the person that they spend most of their time talking shit about.

Yeah, and it is that ultimate betrayal when someone,

-you know, messed you up from the inside. -Mm-hmm.

Writing this song, it kind of occurred to me

that in all of the superhero stories,

the hero's greatest nemesis is the villain that used to be his best friend.

-Yeah. -Um, that sort of thing.

When you think about that, you think about

how there's this beautiful moment in the beginning of a friendship

where these people have no idea that one day they'll hate each other

and try to really take each other out.

-Yeah. -I mean, that's really sad and terrible.

But that's the bird's eye view quality of the song that I think is so unique

because they're both great, but sometimes you write, like, very in the moment.

And you're like, "This happened, and this is how I feel."

I love that, but this song,

which is interesting that it's the first one that happened

because I think it became a huge theme on the album, is it's very pulled back.

It's very pulled back and commenting on the whole experience of it.

Um...

It's very powerful to me.

♪ We gather here We line up weeping in a sunlit room ♪

♪ And if I'm on fire ♪

♪ You'll be made of ashes too ♪

♪ Even on my worst day Did I deserve, babe ♪

♪ All the hell you gave me? ♪

♪ 'Cause I loved you I swear I loved you ♪

♪ Till my dying day ♪

♪ I didn't have it in myself To go with grace ♪

♪ And you're the hero flying around Saving face ♪

♪ And if I'm dead to you Why are you at the wake? ♪

♪ Cursing my name Wishing I stayed ♪

♪ Look at how my tears ricochet ♪

♪ We gather stones Never knowing what they'll mean ♪

♪ Some to throw Some to make a diamond ring ♪

♪ You know I didn't want to Have to haunt you ♪

♪ But what a ghostly scene ♪

♪ You wear the same jewels That I gave you ♪

♪ As you bury me ♪

♪ I didn't have it in myself To go with grace ♪

♪ 'Cause when I'd fight You used to tell me I was brave ♪

♪ And if I'm dead to you Why are you at the wake? ♪

♪ Cursing my name Wishing I stayed ♪

♪ Look at how my tears ricochet ♪

♪ And I can go anywhere I want ♪

♪ Anywhere I want Just not home ♪

♪ And you can aim for my heart Go for blood ♪

♪ But you would still miss me In your bones ♪

♪ And I still talk to you ♪

♪ When I'm screaming at the sky ♪

♪ And when you can't sleep at night ♪

♪ You hear my stolen lullabies ♪

♪ I didn't have it in myself To go with grace ♪

♪ And so, the battleships will sink Beneath the waves ♪

♪ You had to kill me But it killed you just the same ♪

♪ You're cursing my name Wishing I stayed ♪

♪ You turned into your worst fears ♪

♪ And you're tossing out blame Drunk on this pain ♪

♪ Crossing out the good years ♪

♪ And you're cursing my name Wishing I'd stayed ♪

♪ Look at how my tears ricochet ♪

♪ Yeah, look at how my tears ricochet ♪

♪ Look at all of my tears ♪

♪ Turning into your tears ♪

♪ Look at how my tears ricochet ♪

[sighs]

In folklore, there are a lot of songs that reference each other or lyrical parallels,

and one of the ones that I like is the entire song "this is me trying"

then being referenced again in "mirrorball,"

which is, "I've never been a natural. All I do is try."

Yeah, I remember that being an interesting one for you to actually put down.

'Cause I remember you said it, and you did it, and you were like,

-"Should I say that? Should I--" -I was like, "Is that too true? Is that--"

And I think with "mirrorball," sometimes when I'm writing to an instrumental track,

I'll push play, and I'll immediately see a scene set.

And this was one of those cases where I just saw, you know,

lonely disco ball, twinkly lights, neon signs,

people drinking beer by the bar,

um, a couple of stragglers on the dance floor.

Just sort of a sad, moonlit, lonely experience

in the middle of a town that you've never been.

And I just was thinking,

"Okay, so we have mirrorballs in the middle of a dance floor

because they reflect light.

They are broken a million times, and that's what makes them so shiny.

We have people like that in society too.

They hang there, and every time they break, it entertains us."

-Yeah. -And...

"And when you shine a light on them, it's this glittering, fantastic thing,

but then a lot of the time when the spotlight isn't on them

they're still there, up on a pedestal, but nobody's watching them."

It's a myth we love, and then we create it for people.

Yeah. It's the whole--

-Like, "Do the broken thing." -Do the broken thing.

"Make it fun. Now make it sad. Now make it cool. Now make it sad."

-Yeah, but when the light's off, be okay. -Yeah.

It was a metaphor for celebrity, but it's also a metaphor

for so many people who have to feel, like--

Everybody else feels like they have to be on for certain people.

For-- You have to be different versions of yourself for different people.

Different versions at work, different versions around friends,

different versions of yourself around different friends.

Different version of yourself around family.

-Yeah. -Everybody has to be duplicitous, um...

or feels that they have to, in some ways, be duplicitous.

And that's part of the human experience, but it's also exhausting.

And you kind of learn

that every one of us has the ability to become a shape-shifter.

-Totally. -But what does that do to us?

And it also is the first time, and one of the only times,

that the time that we're living through is actually lyrically addressed.

Um, I think that, you know, the pandemic and lockdown and all that

runs through this album like a thread because it's an album

that allows you to feel your feelings, and it's a product of isolation.

It's a product of all this, you know, rumination on

what we are as humans, blah, blah, blah.

But this is the first time in the bridge saying,

"They called off the circus, burned the disco down

when they sent home the horses and the rodeo clowns."

I wrote this song right after I found out all my shows were canceled.

And it's like I'm still on that tightrope.

I'm still trying everything to keep you-- to get you laughing at me.

So, it's like, I realize, here I am writing all this music, still trying,

and I know I have an excuse to sit back and not do something,

but I'm not, and I can't,

-and I don't know why that is. -You don't get it.

But that's what makes it, to me, a great piece of pandemic-time work,

is that it's not about the pandemic.

It's about the experience of what happens to an artist

when you're living through a pandemic.

-Yeah. You start there-- You start-- -You start to dream.

Yep.

♪ I want you to know ♪

♪ I'm a mirrorball ♪

♪ I'll show you every version Of yourself tonight ♪

♪ I'll get you out on the floor ♪

♪ Shimmering beautiful ♪

♪ And when I break It's in a million pieces ♪

♪ Hush When no one is around, my dear ♪

♪ You'll find me on my tallest tiptoes ♪

♪ Spinning in my highest heels, love ♪

♪ Shining just for you ♪

♪ Hush I know they said the end is near ♪

♪ But I'm still on my tallest tiptoes ♪

♪ Spinning in my highest heels, love ♪

♪ Shining just for you ♪

♪ I want you to know ♪

♪ I'm a mirrorball ♪

♪ I can change everything About me to fit in ♪

♪ You are not like the regulars ♪

♪ The masquerade revelers ♪

♪ Drunk as they watch My shattered edges glisten ♪

♪ Hush When no one is around, my dear ♪

♪ You'll find me on my tallest tiptoes ♪

♪ Spinning in my highest heels, love ♪

♪ Shining just for you ♪

♪ Hush I know they said the end is near ♪

♪ But I'm still on my tallest tiptoes ♪

♪ Spinning in my highest heels, love ♪

♪ Shining just for you ♪

♪ And they called off the circus Burned the disco down ♪

♪ When they sent home the horses And the rodeo clowns ♪

♪ I'm still on that tightrope ♪

♪ I'm still trying everything To get you laughing at me ♪

♪ And I'm still a believer But I don't know why ♪

♪ I've never been a natural All I do is try, try, try ♪

♪ I'm still on that trapeze ♪

♪ I'm still trying everything To keep you looking at me ♪

♪ Because I'm a mirrorball ♪

♪ I'm a mirrorball ♪

♪ I'll show you every version Of yourself tonight ♪

With "seven," the song, I was looking back on it.

I've always wondered--

When I see a kid throwing a massive tantrum in a grocery store,

-part of me is like, "Man, I feel you." -[Antonoff chuckles]

Like, "When did I stop doing that when I was upset?"

Like, "When did I stop being so outraged that I would throw myself on the floor

and throw the cereal at my mom?"

Well, it also doesn't stop, but where does it go?

-Yeah. -That feeling.

Like, we're still having that feeling, but what is it now?

Yeah, so the idea is, you know, please picture me before I learn civility.

Like, I used to scream anytime I wanted.

Obviously, you know, we can't be throwing tantrums all the time,

and we learn that that's not the right thing to do,

but there's something lost there too.

♪ Please picture me ♪

♪ In the trees ♪

♪ I hit my peak at seven feet ♪

♪ In the swing ♪

♪ Over the creek ♪

♪ I was too scared to jump in ♪

♪ But I, I was high ♪

♪ In the sky ♪

♪ With Pennsylvania under me ♪

♪ Are there still beautiful things? ♪

♪ Sweet tea in the summer ♪

♪ Cross your heart Won't tell no other ♪

♪ And though I can't recall your face ♪

♪ I still got love for you ♪

♪ Your braids make a pattern ♪

♪ Love you to the moon and to Saturn ♪

♪ Passed down like folk songs ♪

♪ The love lasts so long ♪

♪ And I've been meaning to tell you ♪

♪ I think your house is haunted ♪

♪ Your dad is always mad And that must be why ♪

♪ I think you should come live with me ♪

♪ And we can be pirates ♪

♪ Then you won't have to cry ♪

♪ Or hide in the closet ♪

♪ And just like a folk song ♪

♪ Our love will be passed on ♪

♪ Please picture me ♪

♪ In the weeds ♪

♪ Before I learned civility ♪

♪ I used to scream ferociously ♪

♪ Anytime I wanted ♪

♪ Oh ♪

♪ Oh ♪

♪ Sweet tea in the summer ♪

♪ Cross your heart Won't tell no other ♪

♪ And though I can't recall your face ♪

♪ I still got love for you ♪

♪ Pack your dolls in a sweater ♪

♪ We'll move to India forever ♪

♪ Passed down like folk songs ♪

♪ The love lasts so long ♪

It's a weird experience, uh, to work with you.

-[laughs] -And now Aaron can understand it.

No, I'm serious because it's like,

"Here's the song. Oh wait, here's the bridge.

Wait, here's a better bridge. Okay, now I have the perfect bridge.

Then here's a thing after the bridge, and this thing's gonna come in--"

♪ Remember when I pulled up And said, "Get in the car" ♪

I wrote that in the vocal booth.

Yes! So there's series of--

♪ Canceled my plans Just in case you'd call ♪

And so-- But hearing the patchwork of that whole thing coming together,

I was just like, um...

I just love what you did on that song.

-It takes me away. -Thanks. I love what you did on that song.

And I've been kinda in my head, like, calling the girl from "august"

-either Augusta or Augustine. -Oh, nice.

-I've been naming her that in my head. -Well, that changes things for me.

Cause she's really nameless to me, but now it's forever changed.

[chuckles] What happened in my head was,

okay, so "cardigan" is Betty's perspective from,

like, 20 to 30 years later, looking back on this love

that was this tumultuous thing.

In my head, I think Betty and James ended up together.

-Right? -Interesting.

So, in my head, she ends up with him, but he really put her through it.

But, like, "august" was obviously about

the girl that James had this summer with, right?

So she seems like she's a bad girl, but really, she's not a bad girl.

She's, like, really a sensitive person who really fell for him.

And she was trying to seem cool and seem like she didn't care

because that's what girls have to do.

And she was trying to let him think that she didn't care,

but she really did, and she thought they had something very real.

And then he goes back to Betty.

So the idea that there's some, like, some bad, villain girl

in any type of situation who, like, takes your man

is actually a total myth because that's not usually the case at all.

Like, everybody has feelings and wants to be seen and loved,

and just, like, Augustine, that's all she wanted was love.

That's what I love about "august" is, like, it's not a dream.

Even though it sort of sounds like it. Like, it feels--

The situation feels very close to me.

-Like, getting swept up like that. -Yeah.

That whole song started with the fact that I had written down in my phone,

"Meet me behind the mall" years ago, wanting to write it into a song.

♪ Salt air And the rust on your door ♪

♪ I never needed anything more ♪

♪ Whispers Of "Are you sure?" ♪

♪ "Never have I ever before" ♪

♪ But I can see us Lost in the memory ♪

♪ August slipped away Into a moment in time ♪

♪ 'Cause it was never mine ♪

♪ And I can see us Twisted in bedsheets ♪

♪ August sipped away Like a bottle of wine ♪

♪ Cause you were never mine ♪

♪ Your back Beneath the sun ♪

♪ Wishing I could write my name on it ♪

♪ Will you call When you're back at school? ♪

♪ I remember thinking I had you ♪

♪ But I can see us Lost in the memory ♪

♪ August slipped away Into a moment in time ♪

♪ 'Cause it was never mine ♪

♪ And I can see us Twisted in bedsheets ♪

♪ August sipped away Like a bottle of wine ♪

♪ Cause you were never mine ♪

♪ Oh ♪

♪ Back when we were still changing For the better ♪

♪ Wanting was enough ♪

♪ For me it was enough ♪

♪ To live for the hope of it all ♪

♪ Cancel plans just in case you'd call ♪

♪ And say "Meet me behind the mall" ♪

♪ So much for summer love And saying "us" ♪

♪ Cause you weren't mine to lose ♪

♪ You weren't mine to lose ♪

♪ No ♪

♪ Cause I can see us Lost in the memory ♪

♪ August slipped away Into a moment in time ♪

♪ 'Cause it was never mine ♪

♪ And I can see us Twisted in bedsheets ♪

♪ August sipped away Like a bottle of wine ♪

♪ You were never mine, mine ♪

♪ You were never mine ♪

♪ Never mine ♪

♪ Do you remember? ♪

♪ Remember when I pulled up And said, "Get in the car" ♪

♪ And then canceled my plans Just in case you'd call ♪

♪ Back when I was living For the hope of it all ♪

♪ For the hope of it all ♪

♪ "Meet me behind the mall" ♪

♪ And then I canceled my plans Just in case you'd call ♪

♪ Back when I was living For the hope of it all ♪

♪ For the hope of it all ♪

♪ Remember when I pulled up And said, "Get in the car" ♪

♪ And then canceled my plans Just in case you'd call ♪

♪ Back when I was living For the hope of it all ♪

♪ For the hope of it all ♪

♪ "Meet me behind the mall" ♪

[laughs]

I loved that.

I'd been thinking about addiction, and I'd been thinking about people who,

if they're either suffering through mental illness

or they're suffering through addiction or they have an everyday struggle.

No one pats them on the back every day,

but every day they are actively fighting something.

But there are so many days that nobody gives them credit for that.

-Yeah. -And so,

how often must somebody who's in that sort of internal struggle

must wanna say to everyone in the room,

"You have no idea how close I am to going back to a dark place,"

-or, "You have no idea." -Yeah.

"You have no idea how hard it is to get to the point

-where you guys think is still shitty." -Yes.

Like, I think about that a lot. Like...

The idea of... the idea of doing your best, or trying,

is one that only a person knows, and you know when you're doing it.

And it's so hard, which is what I get from that song,

when you're doing your damn best, and it's not good enough.

-Yep. -And it rarely is.

-Yeah. -Um...

But it's, you know, it's a very isolating feeling

which, I think, is funny

'cause it actually is the thing that binds all of us.

Cause we're all doing our best and feeling like it's not even close to good enough.

Yeah, I had this idea that the first verse would be

about someone who is in sort of a life crisis

and has just been trying and failing

and trying and failing in their relationship,

has been messing things up with the people they love,

has been letting everyone down,

and kind of has driven to this overlook, this cliff,

and is just in the car going, "I could, like...

I could do whatever I want in this moment, and it could affect everything forever."

But this person backs up and drives home, and--

Yeah, I love that. The idea that not driving off the cliff is an act of trying.

Yeah.

Which is almost the ultimate act of trying.

Yeah. And then the second verse is about...

um, you know, someone who felt like they had a lot of potential in their life.

I think there are a lot of mechanisms for us in our school days,

in high school or college, to excel and to be patted on the back for something.

And then I think a lot of people get out of school

and there are less abilities for them to get gold stars.

And then you have to make all these decisions and pave your own way,

and there's no set class course you can take, and there's--

And, I think a lot of people feel really swept up in that.

And so I was thinking about this person who is really lost in life

and then starts drinking and every second is trying not to.

Yeah.

♪ I've been having a hard time adjusting ♪

♪ I had the shiniest wheels Now they're rusting ♪

♪ I didn't know if you'd care If I came back ♪

♪ I have a lot of regrets about that ♪

♪ Pulled the car off the road To the lookout ♪

♪ Could've followed my fears All the way down ♪

♪ And maybe I don't quite know What to say ♪

♪ But I'm here in your doorway ♪

♪ I just wanted you to know That this is me trying ♪

♪ I just wanted you to know That this is me trying ♪

♪ They told me All of my cages were mental ♪

♪ So I got wasted like all my potential ♪

♪ And my words shoot to kill When I'm mad ♪

♪ I have a lot of regrets about that ♪

♪ I was so ahead of the curve The curve became a sphere ♪

♪ Fell behind all my classmates And I ended up here ♪

♪ Pouring out my heart to a stranger But I didn't pour the whiskey ♪

♪ I just wanted you to know That this is me trying ♪

♪ I just wanted you to know That this is me trying ♪

♪ At least I'm trying ♪

♪ And it's hard to be at a party When I feel like an open wound ♪

♪ It's hard to be anywhere these days When all I want is you ♪

♪ You're a flashback in a film reel On the one screen in my town ♪

♪ And I just wanted you to know That this is me trying ♪

♪ I just wanted you to know That this is me trying ♪

♪ At least I'm trying ♪

This was the first album that I've ever let go of that need

to be 100% autobiographical

because I think I felt like I needed to do that,

and I felt like fans needed to hear,

like, a stripped-from-the-headlines account of my life.

And actually, it ended up being a bit confining

because there's so much more to writing songs

than just what you're feeling in your singular story line.

And this was the first time that I ever was like--

I think it was spurred on by the fact that I was watching movies every day.

I was reading books every day.

I was thinking about other people every day.

I was kind of outside of my own personal stuff.

And so I ended up just, like--

I think that's been my favorite thing about this album,

is that it's allowed to exist on its own merit without it just being,

"Oh, people are listening to this

because it tells them something that they could read in a tabloid."

Interesting.

It-- It to me fees like-- it feels like a completely different experience.

♪ Make sure nobody sees you leave ♪

♪ Hood over your head Keep your eyes down ♪

♪ Tell your friends you're out for a run ♪

♪ You'll be flushed when you return ♪

♪ Take the road less traveled by ♪

♪ Tell yourself you can always stop ♪

♪ What started in beautiful rooms ♪

♪ Ends with meetings in parking lots ♪

♪ And that's the thing About illicit affairs ♪

♪ And clandestine meetings And longing stares ♪

♪ It's born from just one single glance ♪

♪ But it dies and it dies and it dies ♪

♪ A million little times ♪

♪ Leave the perfume on the shelf ♪

♪ That you picked out just for him ♪

♪ So you leave no trace behind ♪

♪ Like you don't even exist ♪

♪ Take the words for what they are ♪

♪ A dwindling, mercurial high ♪

♪ A drug that only worked ♪

♪ The first few hundred times ♪

♪ And that's the thing About illicit affairs ♪

♪ And clandestine meetings And stolen stares ♪

♪ They show their truth one single time ♪

♪ But they lie and they lie and they lie ♪

♪ A million little times ♪

♪ And you wanna scream ♪

♪ Don't call me kid Don't call me baby ♪

♪ Look at this godforsaken mess That you made me ♪

♪ You showed me colors you know I can't see with anyone else ♪

♪ Don't call me kid Don't call me baby ♪

♪ Look at this idiotic fool That you made me ♪

♪ You taught me a secret language I can't speak with anyone else ♪

♪ And you know damn well ♪

♪ For you I would ruin myself ♪

♪ A million little times ♪

[Swift] So, "invisible string."

When I first heard the track that you sent me,

I thought, "I have to write something that matches it,"

and pretty quickly I came upon the idea of fate.

'Cause sometimes I just, you know, go into a rabbit hole

of thinking of how things happen, and I kind of love the romantic idea

that every step you're taking,

you're taking one step closer to where you're supposed to be.

You know, guided by this little, like, invisible string. [laughs]

I remember when I bought this little guitar that has a rubber ridge,

which you have one now too, but it has this like--

Yeah. You got me one and sent it to me, and it was, like--

I couldn't believe opening up this, like, beautiful--

Is it a '50s guitar?

-It is from the late '50s... -Wow.

...and it's been, like, [stammers] renovated

so that the bridge deadens the strings, and it sounds really old.

And it just really kind of writes songs for you, in a way,

-'cause it's so fun to play. -Mm-hmm.

And that was the first one that I wrote with it,

and then you wrote this incredible song that is all about fate,

and that was another moment where I just felt there was this serendipity...

happening between us and crazy chemistry.

As far as, like-- You took exactly what I had written,

and it was as though we wrote it together in a room, or something.

I remembered I wrote it right after I sent an ex a baby gift.

[laughs] And I was just like, "Man, life is great."

And I just remember thinking this is a full signifier that life is great.

♪ Green was the color of the grass ♪

♪ Where I used to read In Centennial Park ♪

♪ I used to think I would meet somebody there ♪

♪ Teal was the color of your shirt When you were 16 at the yogurt shop ♪

♪ You used to work at To make a little money ♪

♪ Time Curious time ♪

♪ Gave me no compasses Gave me no signs ♪

♪ Were there clues I didn't see? ♪

♪ And isn't it just so pretty to think ♪

♪ All along there was some ♪

♪ Invisible string ♪

♪ Tying you to me ♪

♪ Ooh ♪

♪ Bad was the blood of the song in the cab On your first trip to LA ♪

♪ You ate at my favorite spot for dinner ♪

♪ Bold was the waitress On our three-year-trip ♪

♪ Getting lunch down by the Lakes ♪

♪ She said I looked like An American singer ♪

♪ Time Mystical time ♪

♪ Cutting me open, then healing me fine ♪

♪ Were there clues I didn't see? ♪

♪ And isn't it just so pretty to think ♪

♪ All along there was some ♪

♪ Invisible string ♪

♪ Tying you to me ♪

♪ Ooh ♪

♪ String that pulled me Out of all the wrong arms ♪

♪ Right into that dive bar ♪

♪ Something wrapped All of my past mistakes in barbed wire ♪

♪ Chains around my demons ♪

♪ Wool to brave the seasons ♪

♪ One single thread of gold Tied me to you ♪

♪ Cold was the steel of my ax to grind For the boys who broke my heart ♪

♪ Now I send their babies presents ♪

♪ Gold was the color of the leaves When I showed you around Centennial Park ♪

♪ Hell was the journey But it brought me heaven ♪

♪ Time Wondrous time ♪

♪ Gave me the blues And then purple-pink skies ♪

♪ And it's cool Baby, with me ♪

♪ And isn't it just so pretty to think ♪

♪ All along there was some ♪

♪ Invisible string ♪

♪ Tying you to me ♪

♪ Ooh ♪

[vocalizing]

♪ Ooh ♪

♪ Oh ♪

♪ Oh, yeah ♪

♪ Ooh ♪

♪ Oh, whoa ♪

[Swift] "mad woman."

The first time I heard that piano thing you had written,

I just felt like-- It's got these sort of ominous strings underneath it.

And I was like, "Oh, this is female rage."

Like, "This is a song about female rage. It has to be."

Like, "I have to figure out how to make this about female rage."

And then I was thinking...

the most rage-provoking element of being a female

is the gaslighting that happens when,

you know, for centuries we've been expected to absorb male behavior silently.

Right? Silent absorption of whatever any guy decides to do.

And, oftentimes when we, in our enlightened state

and our emboldened state, now, respond to bad male behavior

or somebody just doing something that was absolutely out of line,

and we respond,

that response is treated like the offense itself.

Yeah.

You know, there's been situations with--

recently, with somebody who's very guilty of this in my life,

and it's a person who makes me feel,

or tries to make me feel, like I'm the offender

by having any kind of defense to his offenses.

It's like, "Oh, I have absolutely no right to respond or I'm crazy.

I have no right to respond or I'm angry.

I have no right to respond or I'm out of line."

So you were providing the musical bed for me to make that point

that I've been trying so hard to figure out.

How do I say that-- How do I say why this feels so bad?

♪ What did you think I'd say to that? ♪

♪ Does a scorpion sting When fighting back? ♪

♪ They strike to kill And you know I will ♪

♪ You know I will ♪

♪ What do you sing on your drive home? ♪

♪ Do you see my face In the neighbor's lawn? ♪

♪ Does she smile ♪

♪ Or does she mouth "**** you forever"? ♪

♪ Every time you call me crazy I get more crazy ♪

♪ What about that? ♪

♪ And when you say I seem angry I get more angry ♪

♪ And there's nothing like a mad woman ♪

♪ What a shame she went mad ♪

♪ No one likes a mad woman ♪

♪ You made her like that ♪

♪ And you'll poke that bear Till her claws come out ♪

♪ And you find something To wrap your noose around ♪

♪ And there's nothing like a mad woman ♪

♪ Now I breathe flames each time I talk ♪

♪ My cannons all firin' at your yacht ♪

♪ They say, "Move on" But you know I won't ♪

♪ And women like hunting witches too ♪

♪ Doing your dirtiest work for you ♪

♪ It's obvious that wanting me dead Has really brought you two together ♪

♪ Every time you call me crazy I get more crazy ♪

♪ What about that? ♪

♪ And when you say I seem angry I get more angry ♪

♪ And there's nothing like a mad woman ♪

♪ What a shame she went mad ♪

♪ No one likes a mad woman ♪

♪ You made her like that ♪

♪ And you'll poke that bear Till her claws come out ♪

♪ And you find something To wrap your noose around ♪

♪ And there's nothing like a mad woman ♪

♪ I'm taking my time Taking my time ♪

♪ Cause you took everything from me ♪

♪ Watching you climb Watching you climb ♪

♪ Over people like me ♪

♪ The master of spin Has a couple side flings ♪

♪ Good wives always know ♪

♪ She should be mad Should be scathing like me ♪

♪ But no one likes a mad woman ♪

♪ What a shame she went mad ♪

♪ You made her like that ♪

I think I really felt like there should be a string moment on the album

because we were towards the end of it, and it was all very piano and acoustic.

And you're so good with string arrangements,

and, you know, Bryce is-- I mean, a genius.

And I kinda felt like there should be a moment where

there's a song that was unlike anything I'd done before

and could really exercise that muscle that I know that you have.

And I couldn't-- When I heard it, I remember thinking,

"Maybe I wanna tell a sports story." [chuckles]

'Cause I had just watched The Last Dance, and I was...

and I was thinking all in terms of sports

and winners and underdogs and things like that, but actually,

what I had been doing really frequently

up until that point was I had been doing a lot of research on my grandfather

who fought in World War II at Guadalcanal.

Which was an extremely bloody battle,

and, you know, he never talked about it.

Not with his sons, not with his wife.

Nobody got to hear about what happened there.

And so, my dad had to do a lot of research,

and he and his brothers did a lot of digging

and found out that my granddad was exposed

-to some of the worst situations... -Fighting, yeah.

...you could ever imagine as a human being.

And so, I kind of tried to imagine what would happen

in order to make you just never be able to speak about something.

When I was thinking about that, I realized that...

that there are people, right now, you know,

taking a twenty-minute break in between shifts at a hospital,

who are having this kind of trauma happen to them right now,

that they will probably never want to speak about.

You know?

And so, I just kind of thought, like,

this is an opportunity to maybe tell that story.

The way you weave that together,

where there's remembrance

and bearing witness to your family's history,

but then recognition of who the heroes are today.

It's so moving. And I tried--

The sense of harmony in that song is really different than other songs.

And again, it was as though we did it in the same room

-and worked out the chords and everything. -Yeah.

And how you sing to it feels different than any other song.

It was another moment where it just felt like I was just thankful to be a musician.

Or like, "This is why I play music." You know, something like--

Yeah, I felt that way with this song too,

where it was just like, "How did this slot into place and come together?"

I often feel with this album,

there have been times in my life where things have fallen apart so methodically,

um, and I couldn't control how things were going wrong,

and nothing I did stopped it.

And I felt like I'd just just been pushed out of a plane

and was, like, scratching at the air on the way down,

and I felt like the universe is just doing its thing.

It's just dismantling my life, and there's nothing I can do.

And this is a weird situation where ever since I started making music with you,

I felt like that was the universe forcing things to fall into place perfectly,

-and there was nothing I could do. -Yeah.

It's one of those weird things that makes you think about life a lot,

where this lockdown could've been a time where I absolutely lost my mind,

and instead I think this album was a real floatation device for both of us.

♪ Keep your helmet ♪

♪ Keep your life, son ♪

♪ Just a flesh wound ♪

♪ Here's your rifle ♪

♪ Crawling off the beaches now ♪

♪ Sir, I think he's bleedin' out ♪

♪ And some things You just can't speak about ♪

♪ With you I serve ♪

♪ With you I fall down ♪

♪ Down ♪

♪ Watch you breathe in ♪

♪ Watch you breathin' out ♪

♪ Out ♪

♪ Something med school ♪

♪ Did not cover ♪

♪ Someone's daughter ♪

♪ Someone's mother Oh ♪

♪ Holds your hand through plastic now ♪

♪ Doc, I think she's crashing out ♪

♪ And some things You just can't speak about ♪

♪ Only 20 minutes to sleep ♪

♪ But you dream of some epiphany ♪

♪ Just one single glimpse of relief ♪

♪ To make some sense of what you've seen ♪

♪ With you, I serve ♪

♪ With you, I fall down ♪

♪ Down ♪

♪ Watch you breathe in ♪

♪ Watch you breathing out ♪

♪ Out ♪

♪ With you, I serve ♪

♪ With you, I fall down ♪

♪ Down ♪

♪ Watch you breathe in ♪

♪ Watch you breathing out ♪

♪ Out ♪

♪ Only 20 minutes to sleep ♪

♪ But you dream of some epiphany ♪

♪ Just one single glimpse of relief ♪

♪ To make some sense of what you've seen ♪

♪ Make sense of what you've seen ♪

One of my favorite things about this record is the fact that

there's this trilogy of three.

The trinity of "betty," "august" and "cardigan" are all, like...

We made "august" together. We made "cardigan" together.

-We all three made "betty" together. -[Antonoff] It's perfect.

And "betty" was-- I just heard Joe singing

the entire fully formed chorus of "betty" from another room.

[Antonoff] Yeah.

And I just was like, "Hello."

You're like, "I do this professionally."

-Hello. -"I'd love to have a conversation."

It was a step that we would never have taken

because why would we have ever written a song together?

I thought you were doing a bit when you were like, "Joe and I wrote a song."

Then I was like, "What?" I thought it was gonna be, like,

you know, people write cute songs about their animals, in relationships.

And then you're like, "No, no, we wrote a real song"

and I was like, "What?" Then you sent it to me, I was like...

So this was the first time we had a conversation,

where I came in and I was like, "Hey,

this could be really weird, and we could hate this,

so because we're in quarantine and there's nothing else going on,

could we just try to see what it's like if we write this song together?"

So, he was singing the chorus of it, and I thought it sounded really good

from a man's voice, from a masculine perspective.

And I really liked that it seems to be an apology.

And I've written so many songs from a female's perspective

of wanting a male apology

that we decided to make it from a teenage boy's perspective

apologizing after he loses the love of his life

because he's been foolish.

Allegedly.

No, he's been foolish.

No, according to the Internet, we don't know what it's about.

-He's been foolish. -No, I mean--

We wrote it. I'm confirming. He's been foolish. He was a fool.

I don't know who William Bowery is, so yeah, okay.

♪ Betty, I won't make assumptions About why you switched your homeroom ♪

♪ But I think it's 'cause of me ♪

♪ Betty, one time I was riding On my skateboard ♪

♪ When I passed your house ♪

♪ It's like I couldn't breathe ♪

♪ You heard the rumors from Inez ♪

♪ You can't believe a word she says Most times ♪

♪ But this time it was true ♪

♪ The worst thing that I ever did ♪

♪ Was what I did to you ♪

♪ But if I just showed up at your party ♪

♪ Would you have me? Would you want me? ♪

♪ Would you tell me to go **** myself Or lead me to the garden? ♪

♪ In the garden, would you trust me ♪

♪ If I told you It was just a summer thing? ♪

♪ I'm only 17 I don't know anything ♪

♪ But I know I miss you ♪

♪ Betty, I know where it all went wrong ♪

♪ Your favorite song was playing From the far side of the gym ♪

♪ I was nowhere to be found ♪

♪ I hate the crowds You know that ♪

♪ Plus, I saw you dance with him ♪

♪ You heard the rumors from Inez ♪

♪ You can't believe a word she says Most times ♪

♪ But this time it was true ♪

♪ The worst thing that I ever did ♪

♪ Was what I did to you ♪

♪ But if I just showed up at your party ♪

♪ Would you have me? Would you want me? ♪

♪ Would you tell me to go **** myself Or lead me to the garden? ♪

♪ In the garden, would you trust me ♪

♪ If I told you It was just a summer thing? ♪

♪ I'm only 17 I don't know anything ♪

♪ But I know I miss you ♪

♪ I was walking home On broken cobblestones ♪

♪ Just thinking of you ♪

♪ When she pulled up Like a figment of my worst intentions ♪

♪ She said, "James, get in, let's drive" ♪

♪ Those days turned into nights ♪

♪ Slept next to her But I dreamt of you all summer long ♪

♪ Betty, I'm here on your doorstep ♪

♪ And I planned it out for weeks now But it's finally sinking in ♪

♪ Betty, right now is the last time ♪

♪ I can dream about what happens When you see my face again ♪

♪ The only thing I wanna do ♪

♪ Is make it up to you ♪

♪ So, I showed up at your party ♪

♪ Yeah, I showed up at your party ♪

♪ Yeah, I showed up at your party ♪

♪ Will you have me? Will you love me? ♪

♪ Will you kiss me on the porch In front of all your stupid friends? ♪

♪ If you kiss me Will it be just like I dreamed it? ♪

♪ Will it patch your broken wings? ♪

♪ I'm only 17 I don't know anything ♪

♪ But I know I miss you ♪

♪ Standing in your cardigan ♪

♪ Kissing in my car again ♪

♪ Stopped at a streetlight ♪

♪ You know I miss you ♪

With the song "peace," uh, when you sent me this instrumental,

the first word that I thought of

was this is what peace sounds like.

It's got this, you know, this amazing bass line

that just made me feel like, "This is serenity. This is peace."

And then I was thinking, maybe you just start with the obvious

and think about how that could be told in an interesting way

that kind of goes against the title.

Like, "I could never give you peace,"

over the most peaceful sounding instrumental track.

Yeah. That's why I sent it to you 'cause you kinda said,

"Send me everything, including the most off-the-wall idea you have,"

um, and then you were able to write a song,

which, not only does it, like, have such a beautiful--

It's just such a beautiful love song in recognition of the kind of, like, uh...

insecurity in any relationship that, like, "Will this actually...

Will I be able to give you peace? Will you be at rest with me,

even though, you know, whatever comes?"

-Yeah. -Um, but you also trace the bridge.

When I heard the bridge,

and that you traced all the weird timing and weird chord changes,

it just felt like, "Okay, we can do anything.

We might be able to do anything," or something. You know, this is a--

Like, it pushed the collaboration forward at that moment.

Where I was like, "Okay, so this is a weird race. Let's just--" [whooshes]

Yeah. I think this is a song that's extremely personal to me

because there are times when I feel like,

with everything that's in my control,

I can make myself seem like someone who doesn't have an abnormal life.

And I try that every day.

Every day it's like, "How do I make myself,

among my friends and family and my loved ones,

not see this big elephant that's in the room for a normal life?"

Because I don't want the elephant in the room.

-Yeah. -You know?

If you're gonna be in my life, I feel like there's a certain amount

that comes with it that I can't stop from happening.

I can't stop from you getting a call in the morning that says, you know,

the tabloids are writing this today.

I can't help it if there's a guy with a long lens camera

two miles away with a telescope lens taking pictures of you.

I can't stop those things from happening.

And so, this song was basically, like, is it enough?

Is the stuff that I can control enough

to sort of block out the things that I can't?

-Yeah. -Um...

So, it makes me really, like, really emotional to hear this song

and to know that a lot of people related to it

who aren't talking about the same things that I'm talking about.

They're talking about human complexity.

Yeah. I love that about the record in general and this song specifically.

'Cause to me, it's about--

I have, in my life, suffered from depression,

and I'm a hard person to be in a relationship with

or be married to because I go up and down.

And I can't help it. It's a chemical thing that happens sometimes.

And music is a way of dealing with that for me.

Um, and just somehow the song captures the fragility of what that's like

to be in a relationship with someone who may or may not have peace

or may-- But that's, again, my interpretation.

And someone who you would wanna provide with peace.

-Yeah. -You know, someone that you love,

so you want them to have as much peace in their life as possible

and reconciling the fact that you might not be their best option for that,

-but is it still a deal they wanna take? -Yeah.

♪ Our coming-of-age has come and gone ♪

♪ Suddenly this summer it's clear ♪

♪ I never had the courage Of my convictions ♪

♪ As long as danger is near ♪

♪ And it's just around the corner Darling ♪

♪ 'Cause it lives in me ♪

♪ No, I could never give you peace ♪

♪ But I'm a fire And I'll keep your brittle heart warm ♪

♪ If your cascade ocean wave blues come ♪

♪ All these people think love's for show ♪

♪ But I would die for you in secret ♪

♪ The devil's in the details But you got a friend in me ♪

♪ Would it be enough If I could never give you peace? ♪

♪ Your integrity makes me seem small ♪

♪ You paint dreamscapes on the wall ♪

♪ I talk shit with my friends ♪

♪ It's like I'm wasting your honor ♪

♪ And you know that I'd ♪

♪ Swing with you for the fences ♪

♪ Sit with you in the trenches ♪

♪ Give you my wild ♪

♪ Give you a child ♪

♪ Give you the silence that only comes When two people understand each other ♪

♪ Family that I chose now that I see your brother as my brother ♪

♪ Is it enough? ♪

♪ Cause there's robbers to the east Clowns to the west ♪

♪ I'd give you my sunshine Give you my best ♪

♪ But the rain is always gonna come If you're standing with me ♪

♪ But I'm a fire And I'll keep your brittle heart warm ♪

♪ If your cascade ocean wave blues come ♪

♪ All these people think love's for show ♪

♪ But I would die for you in secret ♪

♪ The devil's in the details But you got a friend in me ♪

♪ Would it be enough If I could never give you peace? ♪

♪ Would it be enough If I could never give you peace? ♪

♪ Would it be enough If I could never give you peace? ♪

Okay, the word hoax is another word that I love

'cause I love that it has an "x," and I love the way that it looks,

and I love the way it sounds.

I think with this song being the last song on the album,

it kind of embodied all the things that this album was thematically.

Like confessions, um, incorporating nature,

emotional volatility and ambiguity at the same time,

sort of love that isn't just easy.

And it's the most symbolic, poetic thing

listing all these things that this person is to you.

And I remember I asked you for advice on this one.

You did. I think you didn't-- I think...

Like, to you it meant different things,

and that was a moment of, like, doubt or something.

And I said-- I think I said,

"What if not all of these feelings are about the same person?

What if I'm writing about several different, very fractured situations?"

Like, one is about love,

and one is about a business thing that really hurt,

and one is about a sort of relationship that I consider to be family,

but that really hurt.

Yeah, and I remember--

-This is one of the moments-- -You referenced Matt.

Yeah. When Matt, you know, The National and Matt Berninger--

Often songs are about more than one thing or many sides of a coin.

And I just love that, and I kind of thought,

"This is-- This feels different, and it also feels--"

Um, I kinda like the fact that you weren't totally sure.

I definitely had the moment of doubt.

I had the moment of like, "I don't usually do this.

I usually know exactly what I'm writing about."

Um, and I was really happy when you kinda pushed me forward like,

"Nope, do the thing that makes you uncomfortable."

Because I think that's what makes it a song that really, to me, stands out.

That line about, "you know it still hurts underneath my scars

from when they pulled me apart." Anyone in my life knows

-what I'm singing about there, but it-- -"But what you did was just as dark."

Everybody has that situation in their life

where it's, like, you let someone in and they get to know you,

and they know exactly what buttons to push to hurt you the most.

Yeah.

That thing where the scar healed over, but it's still painful.

They still have phantom pain.

Yeah.

I think the part that sounds like love to me is,

"Don't want no other shade of blue but you.

No other sadness in the world would do."

It sounds like-- To me, that sounds like what love really is.

Like, "Who would you be sad with?

And who would you deal with when they were sad?"

And like, "Gray skies every day for months, would you still stay?"

Yeah.

One, two. One...

♪ My only one ♪

♪ My smoking gun ♪

♪ My eclipsed sun ♪

♪ This has broken me down ♪

♪ My twisted knife ♪

♪ My sleepless night ♪

♪ My winless fight ♪

♪ This has frozen my ground ♪

♪ Stood on the cliffside ♪

♪ Screaming, "Give me a reason" ♪

♪ Your faithless love's the only hoax I believe in ♪

♪ Don't want no other shade of blue But you ♪

♪ No other sadness in the world would do ♪

♪ My best laid plan ♪

♪ Your sleight of hand ♪

♪ My barren land ♪

♪ I am ash from your fire ♪

♪ Stood on the cliffside ♪

♪ Screaming, "Give me a reason" ♪

♪ Your faithless love's the only hoax I believe in ♪

♪ Don't want no other shade of blue But you ♪

♪ No other sadness in the world would do ♪

♪ You know I left a part of me Back in New York ♪

♪ You knew the hero died So what's the movie for ♪

♪ You knew it still hurts Underneath my scars ♪

♪ From when they pulled me apart ♪

♪ You knew the password So I let you in the door ♪

♪ You knew you won So what's the point of keeping score? ♪

♪ You knew it still hurts Underneath my scars ♪

♪ From when they pulled me apart ♪

♪ But what you did was just as dark ♪

♪ Darling, this was just as hard As when they pulled me apart ♪

♪ My only one ♪

♪ My kingdom come undone ♪

♪ My broken drum ♪

♪ You have beaten my heart ♪

♪ Don't want no other shade of blue But you ♪

♪ No other sadness in the world would do ♪

I think "the lakes" sort of sounds like a testament

of what I've wanted to escape from

and where I saw myself escaping.

Um, we'd gone to the Lake District in England, uh, a couple years ago.

What is the Lake District?

It's in England, and, you know, in the 19th century,

you had a lot of poets like William Wordsworth,

and John Keats would spend a lot of time there.

There was a poet district, these artists that moved there,

and they were kind of heckled for it and made fun of for it

as being these eccentrics and these kind of odd, um, odd artists

who decided that they just wanted to live there.

And I remembered when we went, I thought,

"Man, I could see this.

You know, you live in a cottage,

and you've got wisteria growing up the outside of it,

and you just-- [stammers]

Of course they escaped like that. Of course they would do that."

And they had their own community of other artists who had done the same thing.

And then, I've always, in my career, since I was probably about 20,

written about this sort of cottage backup plan that I have.

-You've been writing about that forever. -I've been writing about it forever.

You've been writing about getting out forever.

Yeah. So "the lakes" is really talking a lot about

relating to people who, hundreds of years ago,

had the same exit plan and did it. And they went and did it.

I went to William Wordsworth's grave

and just sat there, and I was like, "Wow, you went and did it."

-Yeah. -"You just did it.

You just went away, and you kept writing,

but you didn't subscribe to the things that were killing you."

[stammers] You left those things behind in a real way.

And that's really the overarching thing that I felt

when I was writing folklore is,

I may not be able to go to the Lakes right now,

or to go anywhere, but I'm going there in my head,

-and this escape plan is working. -Well, you have your version of it.

That, to me, is the hope in this body of work is that

it's not, "I can't do this. I'm out."

It's, "I've found something worth escaping with."

-And a person to escape with. -And a person.

And, to me, that's a huge, sincere statement of hope

that everything I'm naming is completely small compared to this love.

Yeah, it's the perfect--

I thought it would be the perfect way to slot the last puzzle piece in,

right when people least expected it.

Yeah.

Um, because "hoax" as the ending song for the record,

I thought was interesting for a couple weeks,

but then I wanted to actually come in with the real last song of the record,

which is this song that-- "the lakes," which shows you exactly what--

It kinda is the overarching theme of the whole album,

of trying to escape, having something you wanna protect,

trying to protect your own sanity,

and saying, "Look, they did this hundreds of years ago.

I'm not the first person who's felt this way. They did this."

It's a really potent statement right now.

I think the idea of getting away and figuring out

how to remove the things that are not working in one's life

is the story of this time.

-Yeah. -If you're not thinking about that,

I don't know what you're thinking about.

♪ Is it romantic how all my elegies ♪

♪ Eulogize me? ♪

♪ I'm not cut out For all these cynical clones ♪

♪ These hunters with cell phones ♪

♪ Take me to the Lakes Where all the poets went to die ♪

♪ I don't belong ♪

♪ And, my beloved, neither do you ♪

♪ Those Windermere peaks Look like a perfect place to cry ♪

♪ I'm setting off But not without my muse ♪

♪ What should be over ♪

♪ Burrowed under my skin ♪

♪ In heart-stopping waves of hurt ♪

♪ I've come too far To watch some name-dropping sleaze ♪

♪ Tell me what are my words worth ♪

♪ Take me to the Lakes Where all the poets went to die ♪

♪ I don't belong ♪

♪ And, my beloved, neither do you ♪

♪ Those Windermere peaks Look like a perfect place to cry ♪

♪ I'm setting off But not without my muse ♪

♪ I want auroras and sad prose ♪

♪ I want to watch wisteria grow ♪

♪ Right over my bare feet ♪

♪ Cause I haven't moved in years ♪

♪ And I want you right here ♪

♪ A red rose grew up Out of ice frozen ground ♪

♪ With no one around to tweet it ♪

♪ While I bathe in cliffside pools ♪

♪ With my calamitous love And insurmountable grief ♪

♪ Take me to the Lakes Where all the poets went to die ♪

♪ I don't belong ♪

♪ My beloved, neither do you ♪

♪ Those Windermere peaks Look like a perfect place to cry ♪

♪ I'm setting off But not without my muse ♪

♪ No, not without you ♪

♪ No, not without you ♪

That oughta do it.

[chuckles]

[Antonoff softly] Beautiful.

[Swift] Whiskey?

-[Dessner] This way to the whiskey. -[Swift laughs]

So the record was recorded here, my studio, and your house.

Yes.

Did you give it a name?

Yes. Think it's called Kitty Committee Studios on the album?

It works.

It does, 'cause I've got cats fighting in the background, on the bed.

[Antonoff] There was a big cat vibe, yeah.

And then the cats were the only people--

-Laura kept getting cats. -[Swift] The cats were going in and out

because if I were to close the door on them,

-they'd meow. -[Antonoff] Yeah.

[Swift] So they need to be able to be free-range cats.

-[Antonoff] Yes. -Yeah, cage-free.

Guys. Stop it. Stop. Stop!

Benjamin always starts it, and Olivia always finishes it.

He's twice her size, but she's an amazing fighter. Look at her.

It's usually Benjamin and Olivia that have lots of--

I call them the marshmallow wars.

No one's gonna get hurt, but there's a lot of--

There's a lot of this.

It was bizarre.

It really was bizarre,

but it was, at the same time, my favorite recording experience.

Yeah. I mean, it's just a very cool way to have made an album.

Yeah, it really is.

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