Original subtitles

Yes, Masood. Hello! How are you doing? Are you all right?

Come in. How are you? Yeah, I'm good. Thank you.

Here you go, mate. This is 25 years of filming with Muslims...

The good, the bad and the ugly.

My name is Mobeen Azhar. I'm a journalist.

And this is my friend, film-maker Masood Khan.

Although we're both British Muslims,

we come from very different backgrounds.

I grew up in an entirely Muslim area.

I was praying five times a day.

I'd hoover the carpet in the mosque in the morning.

That was incredibly different to me.

I sort of grew up in a very middle-class market town.

All my friends were white.

These days, the headlines around Muslims

in the UK are often about grooming gangs and illegal immigration.

But this isn't a film about that,

because there was a time, 25 years ago,

when being British and Muslim was OK, you know?

Because after decades of racism,

it felt that as a community, we were finally hitting our stride.

We were on the cover of magazines and getting elected to Parliament.

We even captained the England cricket team.

And then this happened.

There's this event that's so massive

that it doesn't matter who you are,

everyone stops and everyone is forced to ask a question,

and that question is -

who could do something this horrific?

Almost 3,000 people dead.

And it was done by people who claim to share our religion.

Every nation in every region now has a decision to make,

either you are with us or you are with the terrorists.

APPLAUSE

Amidst the rise of Islamism

in the UK, in the years after 9/11,

we suddenly found ourselves on

the front line of the biggest story of our generation.

When my mum and my sister were spat at in the street,

I decided, "OK, no more engineering for me,"

and I went to film school.

I was just completely drawn to this,

just wanting to understand what makes these people tick.

It was like, "Oh, this is a community that I'm in."

Mm. "And now everyone's asking questions,

"so I can help you answer those questions."

Over the years, between us,

we've made tons of films about Muslim communities.

But this one is going to be different.

For the first time, we're turning

the cameras on ourselves and going back to revisit some of

the people we filmed in the past,

to trace the rise of extremism on all sides.

You will get bloodshed on the streets of London!

And ask how the last 25 years have changed

the lives of some British Muslims and the country we all call home.

These people are waging war on us...

For time, this has gone on for 1,400 years!

This is nothing new! I feel like the people that you know

and you can bring to the table can

just give us such a great insight. It'll be a trip.

It'll be a trip. It'll be a trip.

All right. Rolling, my end.

You are good, brother.

We're going to be on the road for a long time.

And, you know, I'm, uh...

I'm quite controlling, so I probably won't let you drive.

If that's all right. Is that OK? I've already worked that out.

Mobeen, do you remember where you were on September the 11th, 2001?

Yes. I would have been a student.

I remember just thinking this was...horrific,

and one of the strangest things I'd ever seen.

And I remember going

to someone's house and this friend of mine...

I think he didn't mean it in a malicious way.

He said, "Oh, have you seen what your lot have done?"

You know, "your lot" being Muslims.

You know, I remember that feeling too well myself.

I was actually in Pakistan. My last memory of being in Pakistan,

that was just watching these Twin Towers come

down and everybody just standing around

at Lahore Airport just watching this.

I can remember feeling quite scared...

..but also then me thinking, "My God, what does it mean for us?!

"What does it mean for Muslims?"

In the wake of 9/11,

what President Bush dubbed the War on Terror, began.

The US invaded Afghanistan,

where the Taliban had been harbouring Osama bin Laden.

Then, attention turned to Iraq,

part of what was referred to as the Axis of Evil.

There were concerns about the legality of the war in Iraq,

potential deaths of civilians

and the demonisation of Muslims in the UK.

The early 2000s were a political

awakening for many British Muslims, including me.

I was at university and I was pretty idealistic.

I joined the Stop the War Coalition. Soon after

that I was on the National Committee,

and it was around then that I met Salma Yaqoob.

The circumstances in which I got to know her were kind of horrible,

but what Salma was doing is she was taking a stand.

Nobody at the start of the anti-war

movement could have predicted that on February the 15th,

we would see two million people on

the streets of London saying no to the illegal, unjust war.

Salma had the ability at the time to stand in a room full of

people and say, "We are not going to allow this

"to happen," and make everyone

in the room feel that if we worked together,

we could stop a war in a literal sense,

that we could actually stop people being killed.

It was that simple. Salma went on to have a career

in left-wing politics and is still a campaigner today.

But I want to take her back to 2001 to hear her perspective on how

that period impacted British Muslims.

I'm excited about what she's got to say,

but I'm also a bit scared because she's one person

that actually used to make me really hopeful.

Yeah, no, I hear that.

How are you? Are you OK? It's so good to see you.

So nice to see you. Are you OK? You look exactly the same! Welcome!

You look different! HE LAUGHS

I think the last time I saw you I had hair down to here!

I had, like, really long hair. When I met you,

you were just this amazing, articulate,

inspiring young activist.

Oh, thank you so much, Salma. You know, the thing is, Salma,

I wouldn't have met you if

September the 11th hadn't have happened. Yeah! And before that,

if I'm not mistaken,

you weren't politically active in a kind of public way.

Or were you? No, I was a psychotherapist.

I'd graduated, I was a young mum. But 9/11

was just this complete change of direction.

Yeah. Um, not long after 9/11,

I was spat on in the street.

I wasn't just Salma - mum at the school gate.

You know, suddenly I was being associated

with a terrorist organisation,

guilty of the most horrific violence.

That certainly made me question things,

and at the same time, thinking about all those people

who were literally going to have bombs dropped on them.

And that's why I got involved.

On the 15th of February 2003, around a million people

from all walks of life marched in London against war in Iraq.

Realistically, the logistics were massive.

We had to book the coaches, we had to raise funds.

I remember personally organising 200 coaches, just from Birmingham.

People were coming from all over - from the churches, from the mosques,

from the community centres, from the universities.

People think that all these Muslims were just ready to jump on a coach

and ready to demonstrate, and all that - no!

No, you had to persuade people.

People had to be reached, cos they... People were very scared.

They didn't want to... Completely. ..be seen, you know.

Well, the first message is that this is a great alliance,

a great coalition between the Muslims and the non-Muslims,

who agree on the basic values of humanity.

I want to show you something.

So I'm sure... I don't know when will be the last time

you actually watched this.

ON VIDEO: If today, only the socialists had turned up,

they would have said, "It's just the loony left."

If today, only the Muslims had turned up,

they would have said, "It's the fundamentalists."

Well, Tony Blair, you cannot dismiss us all.

CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

You look so, so young!

How do you feel watching that?

Gosh.

That brings back a lot of memories.

That was an amazing day. Amazing.

Such a sea of humanity.

And, yeah, there was that hope.

You seem a lot more sombre watching that than I thought you would be.

Cos so many people died.

You know, we did our best.

My conscience is clear...

..that we have tried and we are trying,

but it's really sad that a lot of people have suffered terribly.

It is... It's difficult to watch, isn't it, in some ways?

What saddened you most?

To be completely frank,

it's cos you're like this kind of juggernaut of...

..positivity, so seeing you a bit more downbeat...

..makes me a bit sad. That's all it is.

The fire...is still the same.

Thank you so much. I... I'm so, so grateful, honestly.

I just loved seeing you again after all this time. It's been so good.

As-salam, Salma! Thank you so much.

Assalaamu Alaikum. Thank you.

You know, for a lot of us - me included -

there was this whole idea that we live in the kind of society

that, if you play by the rules, if you organise demonstrations...

..if you organise petitions, if you engage with civic society,

then you will be listened to.

And ultimately...

..it didn't work.

And I'm kind of heartbroken by that.

Lots and lots of people died.

People died. People lost their lives.

And I think it goes further as well, because there were people,

a particular kind of subset within the Muslim community,

that were saying all along that, "These people,

"they're not going to listen to you.

"They don't care what you've got to say."

And they took advantage of what happened.

TONY BLAIR: I know this course of action has produced

deep divisions of opinion in our country.

But I know also the British people will now be united

in sending our Armed Forces our thoughts and prayers.

In the immediate aftermath of 9/11,

Muslim leaders came out to condemn the attacks.

The situation is serious as it is and we don't want to make it worse.

The UK and US-led invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq

were used by a small number of extremists

who saw an opportunity to supercharge

their own particular brand of political Islam.

They keep eyes on us...

Britain's foreign policy decisions...

..were exploited as a recruitment tool by extremists

who had already been active in our communities.

It was a moment in time that changed me and Masood's lives forever...

You. You murderer!

..because we both decided to make films

about the organisations drawing young men towards extremism.

These were people that we would have gone to school with

or that we would have seen at the mosque.

Why... Why did we not go down that path?

What made these guys different? What made them susceptible to this?

And there's Anjem.

..and the pharaoh of today, George Bush,

then you will invite the wrath of the mujahideen upon you.

And we are among you.

Anjem Choudary was the co-founder

of the extremist Islamist group al-Muhajiroun, formed in the 1990s.

Choudary was convicted in the UK

and sentenced to life for terrorism offences in 2024.

..at 11.09.

I remember he was desperate for the publicity.

He was desperate for the attention.

He knew how tabloid news works and he exploited that.

The scary thing is, though, is that so many people

who did carry out attacks and so on, moved through this circle.

There's this project that I did,

and I'd say it was the one that kind of supersized everything,

and then I got a reputation.

It was for the BBC.

It was a three-part series. It was three hours long.

It had the most bombastic title.

It was with Peter Taylor.

Peter Taylor, he was like this mentor. I loved working with him.

He was so good.

PETER TAYLOR: Although they're a tiny minority,

a small group of radicalised young men now constitute

the single biggest threat to our national security.

My whole job was getting access to these people

and getting them to trust me.

I grew my beard out to here. I wore a jubbah.

I'd wear a hat all the time. I took my earrings out.

I was like, super, super lovely Muslim poster boy.

There's someone that featured in that film.

He's called Ilyas. He's an imam.

I love him. I'd count him as a friend now, actually.

And he was also doing, at the time,

went on to do lots of work around de-radicalisation.

So if there's anyone that can explain what was going on

in some of these people's minds in that era, it's him.

GREET EACH OTHER

I'm really good, thank you. You look very well.

Always good, man, alhamdulillah, good. What do you want?

What can I get you? Look, I'm just going to have a coffee, yeah?

Do you want... There's shami kebab. Yeah, let's get a shami kebab.

Go on. OK, can we get two samosas, two shami kebabs?

And can we just get a couple of the pakora as well?

Is that all right?

So, Ilyas, when I met you... Mm-hm.

..you were in a very particular period of your life -

cos I think, if I'm not mistaken,

you were already involved in kind of de-radicalisation work.

Post 9/11, obviously a lot of us did a lot of deep

kind of soul searching,

and so we saw our role in actually challenging

a lot of the kind of radicalisation that was emerging in that time,

to intervene with young people and put them into the right direction -

not because of government initiatives.

This was our responsibility as Muslims in the UK.

Were there commonalities with what those individuals were saying,

what they'd been through?

Every single one of the individuals that I've engaged

for the last 25 years

have all identified foreign policy as a key factor.

People seeing what's going on in the world -

obviously, the War on Terror, Afghanistan, Iraq -

it creates an opening towards extremist ideology thinking

and recruitment.

It doesn't excuse violence, but I'm just trying to explain why.

You know, there are people that we both know

that took part in particular, you know, documentaries, projects.

I wanted to speak to them... For this? ..for this. OK.

I think people have just moved on. They just want to move on.

I think most Muslims now, Mobeen,

see the mainstream media as irrelevant.

Yeah? They really do. Even when I was saying to everybody...

People were saying, "Ilyas, why are you doing this?

"It's the BBC. No-one is going to even bother."

Did you tell people that you were doing this today?

Yeah, I've told people. They say, "Why? What's the point?"

25 years after 9/11, this is the first time I've even heard of

a film being made by the mainstream media

which is asking Muslims about how it affected them.

"Are you with us or against us?" Mm-hm. That's the narrative still.

You know, Mobeen, my mum and dad came in the 1960s.

My dad was a bus driver for 28 years in London.

My dad was a bus driver too. 28 years. Yeah.

He worked for London buses for 28 years.

OK, they gave their whole life to Britain.

No matter what we do to integrate into British society,

no matter what we do to fit in, no matter how much we contributed,

they will always see us as fucking Pakis.

So why do you think they want to speak to you?

No, no. Why would they want to speak to you?

I get it completely. Why do you think?

Because they see you as part of the establishment.

They see you as part of the very establishment...

I see that...I know. No, no, and that's why, Mobeen, I think you need

to kind of really take some responsibility here.

Are you talking about the press generally?

Are you talking about me as an individual?

OK, so I'm going to say both, I'm going to say both.

I'm going to say both. Look...

Why didn't we see the reasoned voices, the voices

of people who genuinely are trying to make a positive change?

All we saw were these extreme caricatures.

We would be shouting at the TV all the time -

"Why are you giving these people, you know, the limelight?"

And you, as a member of that institution,

deliberately bringing in certain individuals

because, you know, it's a juicy story -

it was like WWE.

So how come when I call, you still pick up and you still say yes again?

No, no, again... Again, you know,

we've worked on a lot of projects together, you know,

and I can see what you're trying to do.

I want people to challenge Islam.

I want people to ask us really difficult questions, absolutely.

We've got to have that balanced, you know, nuanced and informed approach.

Ooh! How was that?

I think it's the first time I've really seen him in all this time...

..with that level of frustration.

Can I ask you something?

In your kind of heart of hearts,

did you believe that you were doing something good?

Yeah, I completely did.

You know, I was working in the press in that period,

and I was working on programmes that involved Muslims.

And that's at the same time that a lot of this stuff

that was being churned out, in his view, was detrimental.

And I - and actually, we - were part of that system.

But do I fundamentally believe that that stuff was worth covering?

You know, the fact of the matter is,

we've gone through a period in this country,

yeah, where Muslims are under intense scrutiny,

but there's reasons for that.

It's not that surprising that people are interested in Muslims,

you know, after things like 9/11 happened

or things like the London bombings happened.

SIREN BLARES

On July 7th, 2005,

four British suicide bombers struck London's transport system

at rush hour, killing 52 people and injuring over 700 others.

Firstly, the shock of it, and, you know, this is...

This is happening in a city where I was living and working.

I was... You know...

You talk to other Londoners and you talk about

how that could have been you on that train or on that bus.

In the months after the attack,

the government drafted new counter-terror strategies

and the police appealed to Muslim communities for their help

to tackle extremism.

We must seize this moment in which the Muslim communities of Britain,

helped by everybody of goodwill,

changes from a current position of shock and disbelief

into active engagement in counter-terrorism.

The following year, as part of a range of counter-extremism measures,

the Labour Government launched Prevent.

The plan was to fund grassroots groups to engage

with people perceived as vulnerable to radicalisation,

in the hope it would stop them from going down that path.

It felt like we were all being held responsible -

"It wasn't just a few bad apples, it was everyone."

"And we all need to step up and do something about it."

"You guys need to sort it out." "You guys need to sort it out."

It wasn't long after 7/7 that I started getting my stop and searches

under the Terrorism Act.

And I remember going into Liverpool Street Station

and I'm stopped by two policemen.

One turned to me and he said,

"They'll say to you they're not profiling you,

"but don't believe that. They ARE profiling you.

"But I will also say to you...

"..that I'm Irish and I know what you're going through.

"And I'll tell you that also, that this will pass."

And that was 20 years ago.

And every time I think about it, I think, "Oh, my God,"

how naive I was to believe that.

After 7/7, many in the community fell under suspicion.

Some were publicly taking a stand against extremism.

Go on - who are we... Who are we meeting?

We're going to go and see Farasat Latif.

He is a trustee at the Islamic Centre in Luton.

Yeah. Back in 2009,

I filmed with them after the Islamic Centre got firebombed.

Assalaamu Alaikum.

THEY GREET

It's been so long! Indeed. How are you doing?

Very well, thank you. Look at you! Yes.

How are you? Assalaamu Alaikum. I'm good, thank you. How you doing?

You're filming now, yeah? I'm filming now. Let's talk.

Tell me about the mosque being firebombed. Were you there?

Yeah. Well... Early in the morning, I got a call -

"The mosque has been firebombed."

I rushed down there. There was a police cordon.

The police told us it was not just a petrol bomb,

it was...with an accelerant.

So someone, it was a mixture of chemicals.

It almost knocked out a complete internal wall of the mosque.

The mosque was closed for four months.

It was quite traumatic for the community, no doubt.

But we were also angry.

In the years following 9/11,

Luton developed a reputation as a hotbed of extremism.

Al-Muhajiroun were a regular presence in town,

handing out extremist literature.

It was at this time that Masood made his film following Farasat,

as he led a campaign to kick al-Muhajiroun out of town.

ARCHIVE: It's Friday.

Farasat is planning to distribute anti-al-Muhajiroun leaflets

after lunchtime prayers.

UNTRANSLATED, LAUGHTER

This spot is where al-Muhajiroun used to do their stall.

They had a pasteboard with leaflets

which they would give out to the local Muslim community.

THEY SHOUT

Those people who believe that they want to do jihad physically,

by all means, they can go up to Afghanistan and do jihad physically.

They become martyrs. They become shahid.

They earn paradise themselves.

The Koran explicitly prohibits the killing of innocent civilians,

Muslim or non-Muslim,

and they explicitly glorify and support the killing of non-Muslims.

So that's one angle.

Secondly, I think their highly provocative publicity stunts

were causing a huge backlash against Muslims.

So what kind of stuff were they doing here?

It was soldiers returning back from Iraq...

..and it was a welcome parade, a procession with their families

and friends and well-wishers.

SHOUTING

Al-Muhajiroun turned up - shouting abuse at them,

while the rest of the community were welcoming them back.

The general public watching it would think

that this is a mainstream Islamic view.

Muslims who wear traditional Islamic clothes like me,

who have a beard or have a hat, this is what we think.

It was a tiny minority of individuals

who literally hijacked our religion.

If this is going on, if people are protesting when soldiers come back,

it's a story. It's worth discussion.

But the problem is the disproportionate publicity

that these people got.

After that incident, they were given a platform on mainstream media

because they fed into that narrative -

post-9/11 and 7/7 - that there's this huge Islamic threat.

But one of the consequences of their actions

was an organisation in Luton called the United People of Luton...

..led by a certain Tommy Robinson.

That was the spark that lit it,

the abuse of our lads and our boys and girls

coming back from a tour in Afghanistan.

We made a vow that can never, ever, ever happen again.

And that eventually morphed into the English Defence League.

Were you saying to al-Muhajiroun,

"Look, you're causing trouble for us?" Were you that candid?

They really didn't care.

Al-Muhajiroun wanted to create a division

between Muslims and non-Muslims deliberately,

so you'd have to take sides.

So both groups fed off each other, basically.

I want no fucking extremist terrorists preaching in our country,

criticising our soldiers.

This ain't a racist group.

This is what we're protesting against.

You ain't... We ain't a r-racist group.

Fuck the Muslims! Fuck the Muslims!

No, no, it's not...

Fuck Sharia law. No, no, shush! No, no, wait! Wait, wait.

This ain't a racist group!

If you look at the timeline here,

you've got a few streets in Luton that become this kind of petri dish

for this idea that is then exported across the country.

So there's one group of people that I think are intentionally provoking

and then another group of people that develop this idea

that they are going to make this the target,

and they are "defending" England.

That becomes the English Defence League.

Which I think is kind of wild, right?

So, Mobeen, I want you to come and meet someone who is ex-EDL.

How do you feel about that?

Oh, my God, that's such a good idea! HE LAUGHS

Hear me out, hear me out.

Do you know... You know the story in Luton, right? Mm-hm.

This guy was all sort of wrapped up in that.

I think he can give us important insights.

Ivan Humble joined the EDL in 2009,

just after it was started in Luton by Stephen Yaxley-Lennon,

also known as Tommy Robinson.

Ivan became the EDL's regional organiser for East Anglia.

Hello. I'm Mobeen. How are you doing? Hey.

I'm good. Can I hug you? Yeah, of course you can.

Having left the EDL,

Ivan now works with charities that counter extremism.

Is this your area? Are you from here?

Yeah, I'm from here. Lived here all my life.

Just a piece of fish. Yeah...

By 2011, what started out as protests

against an extremist Islamist group developed into the EDL,

staging provocative marches with a much broader anti-Muslim agenda.

I'm hoping Ivan can help me understand

why their message spread so fast across the nation.

Tell me a bit about your life.

Who were you on September the 10th, 2001?

Just me, do you know what I mean? I was just an ordinary person,

I weren't working. I was looking after my kids.

It weren't until a few years later on that my opinions started forming.

Why was there a shift? Why did you start?

Anjem Choudary.

It was 2009, the troops' homecoming parade in Luton.

It was all over the news.

Two of my friends were on that parade that day, who were soldiers.

I got really angry, especially what was said on the signs -

"Child rapists", "Murderers", "Child killers".

KIRSTY WARK: Well, with me is Anjem Choudary,

who claimed today to be the leader of those who are protesting.

I thought Anjem Choudary was the voice of the Muslim community.

You thought he was the voice of the Muslim community?

Cos he was the one that the press always went to.

And actually, far from giving them a thanks for what they have done,

I think that people should be indicted for war crimes.

It is clear that you are not happy with life in Britain.

I think you've actually even said that you would like to see

the flag of Allah flying above 10 Downing Street.

You believe in Sharia law...

That's when I started forming opinions, thinking,

"This guy actually wants to take over the country."

People always expect it to be Tommy Robinson or somebody

to radicalise me, but it weren't.

I was radicalised by Anjem Choudary, a Muslim guy.

Let's just be frank about it -

the English Defence League were able to recruit people

because they had a very clear line.

And that clear line is, "Our society is being threatened."

Well, the quickest way to get people to join was feed people's fears.

Just add to them.

So the biggest thing back then was mosques, of course.

Mm-hm. And that was easy, cos there was a video -

I think it's still online now - called Undercover Mosque.

Tonight on Dispatches, an ideology of bigotry

and intolerance spreading through Britain.

Everything that could go wrong went wrong in that video...

..which was enough for us to scare people, to get them angry.

The pinnacle, the crest, the summit of Islam is jihad.

Especially later on, when Stacey Dooley done her one,

when she went back to Luton.

I cannot believe this. SHOUTING

I've never seen anything on this scale.

Cue all the extremists having a go at her

about not being dressed properly.

Do I look naked?

Do I really?

I don't look naked.

No-one's trying to seduce me. And I'm not trying to seduce anyone.

I've watched all those programmes

and I think, "OK, yeah, there's the headline,

"but any detail, any nuance is gone."

Yeah, we weren't looking beyond that.

And I was only seeing what I wanted to see.

Who's going to read a book

when you can watch a YouTube video that... Do you see what I'm saying?

When you left the EDL, was it... Was it difficult?

Yeah, it was the hardest decision I've had to make in my life,

because I got that sense of belonging that I craved,

I got everything I needed,

but things weren't sitting right with me.

Don't get me wrong, people do ask, "Do I regret it?"

And I've thought about this a lot. I don't think I regret anything,

being a part of that, because it's made me the person I am today.

So you might not regret it, but are you sorry?

Yeah, I'm sorry. I am sorry for some of the things I've done.

But regret is a different thing, do you know what I mean?

The work I do now is my apology.

You know what? I think we spend so much time as kind of journalists

saying, "Yes, it's our job to just hold a mirror up to society."

But what happens when you have someone

that just sees this bit of the mirror?

That is what happens.

And there are people, including Tommy Robinson,

that didn't care about the 58-minute film.

They didn't care about the nuance.

All they care about is what fits their agenda.

And so do you and me have a responsibility there?

Well, there's... Part of me thinks maybe we do.

But there's always going to be people

who are going to take your work,

they're going to misrepresent it, misconstrue it.

You know, they're going to use what satisfies their narrative, right?

You know, I had a film I made about Muslim men with multiple wives -

you know, it ended up on a UKIP leaflet.

You know, and as much as I hate that,

I'm not going to stop making films about our community

because I feel that somehow Tommy Robinson or somebody else

is going to pick it up and go,

"Oh, well, look at these bad Muslims again."

All of that stuff isn't happening in a vacuum, right?

There's a context to it all.

At the bottom, you have us guys,

you and me on the ground doing our thing.

Then there's, of course, the rest of the press.

And sitting right at the top of that

are the politicians, who are driving the agenda.

DAVID CAMERON: Her Majesty the Queen has asked me

to form a new government, and I have accepted.

In 2010, Baroness Sayeeda Warsi became the first British Muslim

to serve as a Cabinet minister.

I wanted her perspective on what it was like to be at the top table

of British politics.

Morning. Could we get one builder's tea?

And can we get... Have you got Earl Grey?

Do you want milk with it? Can I get Earl Grey with milk in it? Yeah.

Oh, my God, you have gone so posh on us, Mobeen!

HE LAUGHS

Cos I drink Earl Grey? Right. Exactly!

So posh! I've forgotten where I've come from!

Exactly! People drink Earl Grey in Yorkshire!

You don't drink that bog-standard Yorkshire builder's tea!

Yorkshire tea. HE LAUGHS

OK, September 2001 - where were you at the time?

And what was your perception of what unfolded back then?

I mean, September the 11th changed everything.

Up to that point, I thought, you know, I'm proudly British,

comfortably British, proudly Muslim, comfortably Muslim.

And I didn't see any conflict in any of that. Mm-hm.

And then suddenly this huge catastrophic event happens,

and it tells us that there is somehow an inherent conflict

between those aspects of your identity.

I couldn't think straight.

I couldn't understand what was going on.

And so about nine months after,

I checked out. I left Britain. You left? I left.

Which is quite telling, isn't it? It's quite sad.

But having spent kind of about nine months away,

I thought, if I genuinely cared about my country -

which I did - then I needed to come back and play my part.

I felt politics was where real change was going to come.

I think a lot of people will remember that footage

of you standing on the steps of Downing Street in a shalwar kameez.

And I remember so many people thinking,

"Oh, my God, we grew up with people like that.

"And look where she is." It was a really big deal.

I... One, I was incredibly optimistic,

and the reason I was incredibly optimistic is because

so many of us in the Asian community and Muslim community,

Pakistani community, had different versions of ourselves growing up,

right? You had your home version... Yes.

...and then you had your school version or your work version.

I felt that in 2008/9/10, in the Conservative Party,

in those early Cameron years,

I could be all versions of myself at all times.

So when you got down to doing the job,

were you optimistic about the impact you could make

for the Muslim community?

When I turned up in that Cabinet room,

I wasn't just the first Muslim there,

I was the only non-white member of that Cabinet... Mm-hm.

..and one of a handful of people who hadn't been to private school.

And remember, at this time, I'm party chairman.

I'm being invited to meetings where there are donors, editors.

I was now sat around the dinner tables

of some of the most respectable society

and I'm hearing conversations which feel deeply uncomfortable.

That's where I was finding Islamophobe, anti-Muslim racism.

I was ringing the alarm bells and people either didn't hear it,

didn't want to hear it or didn't believe it.

There's part of me that finds it heartbreaking

because of where we are today. Mm.

As a community and how we're perceived,

we are not in a good place.

This is far worse than I anticipated it would be

when I first entered politics.

It started off with, "Oh, Islam is not the problem,"

or "Muslims are not the problem.

"It's just these little violent ones over here."

And then it was, "Well, Islam is not the problem,

"Muslims are not the problem, but it's the violent ones

"and the extreme ones."

And then it was, "It's the violent ones and the extreme ones

"and those that are on a trajectory to becoming extreme and violent."

And then it was, "Well, I think it's probably most Muslims

"and it's their culture."

And then it was, "Well, it's Islam, full stop." Right? Mm-hm.

So we've kind of gone full circle and said,

"Actually, you're just the problem."

I want to know specifically, though, when you talk about

the Cameron years, and you talk about the role that you had,

and the warnings that you were giving,

what is the trajectory of going from there

and where we've ended up today?

Prevent having a statutory basis

I think was the single moment where actually

the community simply became a part of the problem.

In 2015, David Cameron's Conservative Government extended

the Prevent programme.

New laws made it a legal requirement for anyone working at a school,

council, prison or the NHS to take action if they believed individuals

were at risk of being drawn into extremism.

According to the Home Office, Prevent has supported

over 6,000 people to move away from violent ideologies since 2015.

We're going to go and meet Layla Ailhadj.

She runs Prevent Watch.

And of course, as the name suggests,

she has a keen eye on the Prevent programme.

Assalaamu Alaikum. How are you?

I'm good. Thank you so much for doing this.

I really, really appreciate it. No, you're welcome.

I think there's a large part of British society that has maybe

read about Prevent, but they just know the shorthand version.

Maybe it's a policy to do with preventing violent extremism,

and who wouldn't want to do that? What's the issue there?

On the face of it, it's a very reasonable thing.

Like, you want to stop - you want to prevent something from happening

before it happens.

That's very reasonable. Yeah.

But in reality it relies on this idea that you can predict

what someone is going to go on to do in the future.

What is the process once someone has been referred to Prevent?

Will they actually get a knock on the door?

Yes. So if you're an adult, you usually get a knock on the door

or a call. If you're a child, families are met with

social services turning up at their door, unannounced,

with a counter-terrorism officer,

and that's a very scary feeling.

So I'll give you an example.

So we had a 15-year-old boy who was using the word "jihad"

and trying to explain it in class, and he was referred to Prevent.

He's explaining what "jihad" means because he understands

the misrepresentation of the word.

He challenged the teacher in class.

What if the conclusion is,

"This person isn't a risk, isn't a problem," then what happens?

So that's actually the majority of referrals, will be, like,

"Actually, there isn't anything here to further interrogate,"

but there is harm there, because that person's information will have

already been shared with counter-terrorism.

Do you think the referrals have affected the Muslim community

in a disproportionate way?

That's what the Home Office statistics show.

Yeah. Muslims are overrepresented, and it's supposed to be

"looking at all forms of extremism", and they're "really cracking down

"on right-wing extremism."

And we're still more likely to be referred than non-Muslims.

And, actually, in the community's mind,

you go to school, come back, go to work and come back.

That is the general attitude, because people are afraid

and they don't want to get caught up in that system.

You know, "Don't talk politics, don't talk religion.

"Let's not outwardly express how we feel,

"how we behave, how we believe."

That is a suffocating impact to have.

I mean, do you think that stuff is true?

Do you think it actually...

I mean, if you think about your family, has it had any

kind of effect?

Well, for me, I remember after...

Certainly during the Syrian war, when, you know,

it was in the news a lot, and ISIS, the rise of ISIS,

I was talking to my son about words that they shouldn't use at school,

like "war." "Don't talk about ISIS," and...

Stay away from words like "war"? Are you serious?

Yeah, stay away from words like "ISIS," because, honestly,

there was a real fear amongst Muslim parents that anything

could lead to you having a Prevent referral.

That doesn't strike me as particularly healthy.

I mean, isn't school meant to be the time where

you're exploring ideas and exploring ideas of the world?

Are you meant to pretend that wars don't happen?

I get that. But you don't want to take the risk, right?

You don't want your kid to end up on some Prevent list.

What did your kids say when you said,

"Don't use the word "war" at school?"

My son, he was only seven or eight at the time, so he was like,

"OK, no, Dad."

I think even when I was seven years old, I would've

told you to fuck off.

Eight years after 7/7, the brutal murder of Lee Rigby,

an off-duty soldier, by two men with links to al-Muhajiroun

shocked the country.

SHOUTING, GUNSHOTS

It marked the start of a sinister new era of clashing extremist

narratives being amplified online in a new way.

A tooth for a tooth, an eye for an eye.

If they're guilty, hang them high!

At this time, overseas,

the so-called Islamic State group had risen out of

the aftermath of the wars in Syria and Iraq.

Their slick propaganda machine inspired a series of

brutal attacks across Europe.

So I don't know what it was like for you, Mobeen,

but I remember, you know, every time there would be an attack,

immediately I'd be thinking,

"God, I really hope this isn't another attack by a Muslim."

It was just relentless.

2017 ends up being this horrific year of violence on British soil.

And I think by that point of course I was upset...

..and I was angry. I was also kind of just exhausted.

I was so exhausted by it.

GUNSHOTS

Between March and June, 35 people were killed

and hundreds were injured in three separate attacks perpetrated

by Islamist extremists - at Westminster Bridge,

at the Manchester Arena, and London Bridge.

Exactly what you see there, that's what they want.

They want war, they want death, they want destruction

and we keep on pandering, like you just come up to me saying,

"It's got nothing to do with Islam." I did not say... It's got everything

to do with Islam. Everything to do with Islam.

It's got everything to do with Islam.

Against the backdrop of far-right commentators

sharing their outrage online,

16 days after London Bridge there was a reprisal

by an extremist in North London.

Today we're meeting the imam who found himself

at the centre of that attack.

Assalaamu Alaikum. Assalaamu Alaikum.

Nice to meet you. Lovely to meet you.

Are you OK? I'm good. Thank you. You want to go up?

Yeah. Please.

I know this is... It's quite horrible to talk about,

so I appreciate that. Mm.

I just want... I want to hear how that day unfolded.

Right. Ah, it was during the last ten nights of Ramadan.

I was in my office, and I just remember one of my colleagues

came up and he was, like, hysterical.

I thought he was calling me to break up a fight.

And when I got there, it was, like, chaotic.

PEOPLE TALKING OVER EACH OTHER

Bodies were scattered,

and people were crying and wailing and moaning in pain.

A van had been driven onto the pavement

and into the crowd of Muslim worshippers outside

Finsbury Park Mosque, killing one and injuring 12 others.

Then I saw a man pinned down to the floor

and somebody get down to punch him.

I realised immediately, "This must be the person who...

"..who drove into them," so I intervened at that point,

and kind of just pushed the person away.

I said, "We're handing him in unscathed,

"untouched, and he's going to answer for his crimes."

I was almost treated as though I was the anomaly.

It had been really embedded in people's minds

that Muslims are aggressive, Muslims are violent,

Muslims have terroristic tendencies.

The man who drove a van into worshippers was Darren Osborne.

NEWS REPORT: When the police arrested Darren Osborne,

he ranted about previous terror attacks and Muslims.

During sentencing, the judge said Osborne had been

rapidly radicalised over the internet

by material from those determined to spread hatred of Muslims

on the basis of their religion,

concluding, "You allowed your mind to be poisoned

"by those who claim to be leaders."

People around him described it as brainwashing him,

and as a result we believe that was, if you like, you know,

a part of the main driver for why he carried out this attack.

This isn't a lesson for one group to the exclusion of others.

It tells you how dangerous our words can be.

Just three days after our chat with the imam in Finsbury Park,

a new story was developing in the city me and Masood both call home.

NEWS REPORT: For the second time in six months,

tens of thousands of supporters of the anti-Islam activist

Tommy Robinson flooded through Central London.

Only a few hundred metres away was a rival protest,

originally organised by pro-Palestinian groups,

but once Robinson's march was announced, it was joined

by anti-racism campaigners.

Masood, I was there on Saturday, I was in town,

and I saw this stuff first-hand.

I saw people holding signs saying, "Fuck Islam",

"Islam out of the UK"...

..people on the main stage in Trafalgar Square

performing with bacon rashers on their shoulders,

as if Muslims are vampires and bacon is garlic.

I saw, like, non-Muslim women wearing burqas, whilst the crowd

chanted for them to take them off.

CHANTING: Take it off! Take it off!

I think it's really irresponsible that we weren't there.

I think it's absolutely part of our story.

Hello. Hello. How you doing?

Yeah, good. It's going OK.

What's going through your mind, man?

Why did we not go?

It wasn't anything we hadn't seen before, and now...

Do you believe that?

Yeah, I truly believe that. I think everybody knows that...

Everybody knows those images.

What do you think we would've gained by being there?

What would we have seen that's different?

Isn't it obvious what we would've gained?

Like, isn't it obvious that that is part of our story?

You have got people marching through the centre of London

saying, "Islam doesn't belong in this country."

They are talking about you and me.

They're talking about our families.

You know, I... I have that thought in my head

every day, almost, right?

And then I see my children,

and then I see them going about their ordinary...

Their everyday lives,

not even... Completely oblivious to this.

I get it, Masood. Like, you are my friend as well.

But I feel like I've got...

..like, a fire for this project.

Yeah, I have that... I share that fire with you.

But I don't know if you do, Masood. Why? Why do you...

Because why weren't we there on Saturday?

This whole thing then about, like,

"Oh, maybe we should have, maybe we shouldn't have.

"Oh, maybe it doesn't illustrate that much."

That is our story.

I'm not getting it. Like...

I'm calmed down. I'm sorry. Like, I'm...

I want you to express yourself. So, like, tell me...

No, no, I've told you. I've told you my...

My thoughts on it.

And, Masood, none of it is personal. I know this stuff... No, no, I know.

Look, I know... ..means a lot to you as well.

I know it's not personal, man. I get that.

You know, it's a difficult journey for us both, I know that.

But maybe you are looking at something different

and I'm looking at something different.

ON RADIO: The far-right activist Tommy Robinson is taking part

in a debate at the Oxford Union.

A debate entitled The West is Right to be Suspicious of Islam.

The invitation sparked widespread condemnation in the city.

Supporters of Tommy Robinson and a large group protesting

against the debate took over the centre of Oxford.

CHANTING: What do we do? Stand up, fight back!

This is the last leg of our trip and I want to hear from both sides.

Why are they here?

And what does this debate say about how Muslims are viewed

in the UK in 2026?

CHANTING

Excuse me. Sorry to bother you.

We're from the BBC. We've been filming...

I'm all right, mate. I don't speak to nonces. Thank you.

No prob... Oh, right, yeah. Definitely don't speak to the BBC.

Thank you. We're from the BBC. You're from the BBC?

Can we chat to you? What about?

About why you're here today. Where are you from, the BBC? Yeah.

I'll chat to you. Yeah.

So the motion is, "The West is Right to be Suspicious of Islam."

Oh, I think that's correct. But if...

If it doesn't pass, will it alter your thinking?

Well, no, it's not going to... You can pass and fail

whatever motion you want, but the people that believe that

Islam's a problem to the West will believe it, and the people that

don't believe it's a problem, will believe it's not a problem, right?

Online, it's fucking mental. So then... Go into some of

the Muslim TikTok groups where all the Muslims are talking.

"We're not here to take part, we're here to take over."

Now, as a white English man, in England,

how do you think that makes us feel?

So you feel threatened? That is a piss-take.

And there's loads of videos online when they're doing this.

The Muslims have got to take responsibility themselves,

but some of them people are poking us online.

Stop poking us. You're making it worse.

Do you agree with what Tommy Robinson...

Some of the stuff?

On...?

On the sea, OK. As in not coming on a boat?

Say it loud, say it clear! Fascists are not welcome here!

What do you mean, they're agreeing with perverts?

They think it's OK... Sorry?

I don't think that's what they're saying.

They're definitely not saying that.

Oh... They're really not saying that.

CHANTING: Fascists are not welcome here!

Say it loud, say it clear! Fascists are not welcome here!

Why is it important for you to be here today?

We need to stick together as a community, right?

We can't let any of us be scapegoated.

The current chair of the Union is a visibly Muslim woman.

Yes. She has said this is about free speech.

How do you respond to that?

She can believe it's about free speech. I disagree.

Right, this isn't, like, a private event.

Like, this will be posted, people will watch this, right?

And how they edit it, it's very likely they'll just edit it

with all Tommy Robinson speaking - that's it.

It won't have the retorts, right? Those will be in different videos.

So he's just going to be able to edit what he said and say,

"I won the debate. Ha-ha!"

What's happening? Masood?

It's children. They're just children.

You know what this debate does? It fuels this.

This... All this debate does, it just fuels hate.

It doesn't... It's not any academic debate.

Fuck you, you cunt!

THEY ALL SHOUT AT ONCE

THEY CHANT: Never trust a leftie with your kids!

CHANTING

The protests carried on until late in the evening,

when the debate finished.

Shame! Shame! Shame! Shame!

The fact is the motion didn't go through, right?

And that makes me really happy.

But then let's think about this.

We've just had a debate asking if the West is right

to be suspicious of Islam.

And, yeah, the word is Islam - it's not Muslims.

But let's just be frank.

It isn't about an academic theory. It's about people.

Imagine if the debate had been,

"Is the West right to be suspicious of..."

I feel strange even saying it.

"Is the West right to be suspicious of black people?"

Right, if we said that, that makes us feel so uncomfortable -

rightly so.

Imagine if we said, "Is the West right to be suspicious of Judaism?"

Just imagine the uproar, and the fact that THAT just took place

tells me that we're in a bit of trouble.

That's what it tells me.

I'm really glad that there's all these people

out on the street protesting and saying that

they won't tolerate fascism.

I think that's great.

That gives me a tiny bit of hope that there's a fightback.

Honestly, I think we are a community with collective trauma.

I don't think we've processed what has happened to us

in the last 25 years.

You think there's no doubt about that at all?

Going over all those stories again

has just brought up so much.

But then I go home. I, you know...

I spend time with my kids.

And try and look to the future, really.

And hope that it'll improve for them.

I think the past 25 years completely altered

how the Muslim community is seen in Britain,

and also how it sees itself.

I think this conversation is still going.

I think Britain - and I say this in a very literal sense -

I think Britain has a problem.

We keep hearing about the Muslim problem.

We keep hearing about Muslims being "an issue".

I think Britain has a problem.

And I think there isn't a day that goes by

where I don't feel that it's all around us.