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[Will VO] [whispering]
Oh, that is so weird.
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00:00:09,926 --> 00:00:14,305
[balls rolling]
3
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[whispering]
That's easy enough.
4
00:00:18,226 --> 00:00:21,312
[balls rolling]
5
00:00:25,900 --> 00:00:28,028
Bingo.
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00:00:28,653 --> 00:00:31,364
It looks exactly like it
did when you picked it up.
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00:00:31,406 --> 00:00:33,992
Yeah, that's how you end.
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00:00:34,576 --> 00:00:39,664
Theme music
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00:00:44,794 --> 00:00:46,212
[Will VO] I'll start this week.
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00:00:46,254 --> 00:00:48,107
So she keeps saying
that I'm not trying,
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00:00:48,131 --> 00:00:50,276
so I'd like to know
what she means by that.
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00:00:50,300 --> 00:00:51,718
[chuckles]
13
00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:54,554
Wait, but I
thought you're starting.
14
00:00:54,596 --> 00:00:56,073
Okay, fair
enough. [laughs]
15
00:00:56,097 --> 00:00:58,242
[Orna] That's starting by
immediately passing the ball.
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00:00:58,266 --> 00:01:01,561
Well, like, it's been
a constant argument.
17
00:01:01,603 --> 00:01:04,230
But what... for you, I
mean, considering...
18
00:01:04,272 --> 00:01:05,750
what we've talked about so far...
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00:01:05,774 --> 00:01:07,918
- [Will] Mm-hm.
- What is "trying?"
20
00:01:07,942 --> 00:01:11,112
What is the work you're doing?
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00:01:11,154 --> 00:01:14,908
Trying to be more appreciative?
22
00:01:14,949 --> 00:01:16,451
[Orna] Mm-hm.
23
00:01:16,493 --> 00:01:19,621
I feel like I still
haven't found a way to...
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00:01:19,662 --> 00:01:22,099
I guess convey my
appreciation in a way that
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resonates with her.
26
00:01:23,500 --> 00:01:25,126
[Orna] Mm-hm.
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00:01:25,168 --> 00:01:29,255
So in a way, you're describing
the experience that you cannot
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00:01:29,297 --> 00:01:33,926
reach Ping... that whatever
you're doing is not reaching.
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00:01:33,968 --> 00:01:35,095
Yeah.
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00:01:35,136 --> 00:01:36,947
Well, I mean, she
tells me so. [chuckles]
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[Orna] Right, but I'm
just staying with you.
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00:01:38,681 --> 00:01:40,826
- Yeah.
- It's like when you're...
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encased in this way where you
feel like whatever you're doing
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00:01:44,145 --> 00:01:45,455
is not gonna make
a difference...
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00:01:45,479 --> 00:01:47,273
[Will] Mm.
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00:01:47,315 --> 00:01:49,168
[Orna] You're creating a
certain kind of forcefield
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00:01:49,192 --> 00:01:50,610
around you...
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00:01:50,652 --> 00:01:51,652
Mm-hm.
39
00:01:51,694 --> 00:01:53,005
[Orna] That you've
already given up...
40
00:01:53,029 --> 00:01:54,799
- Mm-hm.
- [Orna] That you've retreated...
41
00:01:54,823 --> 00:01:56,825
Mm-hm.
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00:01:56,866 --> 00:02:00,120
And it's a very
powerful forcefield.
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00:02:00,161 --> 00:02:02,807
Yeah, I mean, I just... [sighs]
I get to that point where I feel
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00:02:02,831 --> 00:02:05,309
like I've tried everything and I
just don't know what else to do.
45
00:02:05,333 --> 00:02:06,960
Mm-hm.
46
00:02:07,001 --> 00:02:08,478
[Will] So, like, I feel
like I'm listening more,
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00:02:08,502 --> 00:02:10,964
and I feel like
I'm retreating less.
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00:02:11,005 --> 00:02:13,842
Are you noticing any of that?
49
00:02:13,883 --> 00:02:17,470
I'm noticing that
he's making, uh...
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00:02:17,512 --> 00:02:21,307
a lot more effort in us
spending time together,
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00:02:21,349 --> 00:02:22,809
I'm noticing that he...
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00:02:22,851 --> 00:02:24,477
That's... major.
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00:02:24,519 --> 00:02:28,982
Yeah, it's major, but it
comes with its conditions,
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00:02:29,023 --> 00:02:30,608
you know?
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00:02:30,650 --> 00:02:34,362
I mean, we were at a dinner at a
really romantic place a couple
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of nights ago, and...
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00:02:36,698 --> 00:02:40,326
I was looking at him and I was
trying to engage him in just...
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00:02:40,368 --> 00:02:42,721
not just conversation,
but just being present,
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00:02:42,745 --> 00:02:45,015
and I feel like that's
always a struggle with him;
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00:02:45,039 --> 00:02:46,666
he can't be present with me.
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00:02:46,708 --> 00:02:50,545
Everything has gotta be just...
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00:02:50,587 --> 00:02:53,673
He's distracted all the
time, and then he looks at me,
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and he gives me
these comical winks, like...
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00:02:57,218 --> 00:02:58,344
in the middle of dinner!
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00:02:58,386 --> 00:02:59,864
I'm like, "I'm
trying to look at you!
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00:02:59,888 --> 00:03:01,198
Why do you wink
at me like that?"
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00:03:01,222 --> 00:03:03,534
He's like, "What, I
can't give you a wink?!"
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00:03:03,558 --> 00:03:06,019
So you're trying
to make contact,
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00:03:06,060 --> 00:03:08,038
and you feel like
Will is not present.
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00:03:08,062 --> 00:03:09,707
I feel like he's
not present, and...
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00:03:09,731 --> 00:03:11,208
- [Orna] Okay.
- Yeah.
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[Orna] Pause.
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00:03:12,901 --> 00:03:15,528
Will, say what it's
like on your end.
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00:03:15,570 --> 00:03:17,882
How are you
feeling sitting there?
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00:03:17,906 --> 00:03:19,550
[Will] Yeah, it was like we
were having a nice dinner...
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00:03:19,574 --> 00:03:20,867
Mm-hm.
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00:03:20,909 --> 00:03:22,386
It was a new place we
wanted to check out and...
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00:03:22,410 --> 00:03:23,721
and yeah, I look
over and she's kinda,
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00:03:23,745 --> 00:03:25,555
like, staring at
me all flirtatious,
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00:03:25,579 --> 00:03:27,207
so I gave her a wink.
81
00:03:27,248 --> 00:03:29,226
You weren't
sitting there feeling...
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00:03:29,250 --> 00:03:32,086
shut-down, remote?
83
00:03:32,128 --> 00:03:34,422
- [Will] No.
- No.
84
00:03:34,464 --> 00:03:39,510
So what if that's
Will's way of being present?
85
00:03:39,636 --> 00:03:42,889
What you're interpreting as
"not present" is simply Will
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00:03:42,930 --> 00:03:44,891
being Will.
87
00:03:44,933 --> 00:03:48,394
Yeah, I'm thinking that...
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00:03:48,436 --> 00:03:52,941
you know, I'm... that night
was the first night I...
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00:03:52,982 --> 00:03:55,252
looked at him
without the contempt,
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00:03:55,276 --> 00:03:56,402
without the resentment...
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00:03:56,444 --> 00:03:57,546
Right, and it
sounds like he felt it.
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00:03:57,570 --> 00:03:58,756
-[Ping] Without the hate...
-Right!
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[Ping] Without
all of this baggage, right?
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00:03:59,948 --> 00:04:01,241
Right, amazing.
95
00:04:01,282 --> 00:04:03,093
Yeah, so I brought myself there.
96
00:04:03,117 --> 00:04:03,720
[Orna] Mm-hm.
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00:04:03,744 --> 00:04:08,081
I wanted to be in
the moment with him, and...
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00:04:08,122 --> 00:04:11,251
that was an opportu... for me,
that was an opportunity for him
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00:04:11,292 --> 00:04:13,437
to kind of return
that energy, right?
100
00:04:13,461 --> 00:04:16,297
-Because we were there...
-He was trying in his own way.
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00:04:16,339 --> 00:04:19,759
Maybe that is my problem;
that's the deeper issue is that
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00:04:19,801 --> 00:04:21,445
when I'm trying to be
present with someone,
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00:04:21,469 --> 00:04:23,972
I don't wanna be winked
at eight times in a row.
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00:04:24,013 --> 00:04:27,642
That's not flirtatious,
that's just obnoxious.
105
00:04:27,684 --> 00:04:30,120
It's like trying to have a
conversation with someone about
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00:04:30,144 --> 00:04:31,396
something deep...
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00:04:31,437 --> 00:04:32,957
- [Orna] Hold on, hold on.
- [Ping] [sighs]
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00:04:32,981 --> 00:04:34,959
What you're just doing right
now is rather than talk about
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00:04:34,983 --> 00:04:39,487
whatever feelings,
you're being critical.
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00:04:39,529 --> 00:04:41,614
Okay, [sighs] so...
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00:04:41,656 --> 00:04:44,284
I miss...
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00:04:44,325 --> 00:04:48,788
the way we used to be when we
would communicate with just...
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00:04:48,830 --> 00:04:50,123
our body language, right?
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00:04:50,164 --> 00:04:52,834
- [Orna] Mm-hm.
- I miss the...
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00:04:52,875 --> 00:04:54,460
that chemistry, you know?
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00:04:54,502 --> 00:04:55,086
[Orna] Mm-hm.
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00:04:55,128 --> 00:04:57,481
I'm trying to
recapture that, I'm trying to,
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00:04:57,505 --> 00:05:00,300
you know... I'm trying to dig it
out from all the crap that we've
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00:05:00,341 --> 00:05:01,467
piled on top of it...
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00:05:01,509 --> 00:05:03,136
[Orna] Mm-hm.
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00:05:03,177 --> 00:05:06,306
And when he does that... Will
being Will... I feel like he's
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00:05:06,347 --> 00:05:09,350
not honoring what we used to
be or what I need from him in
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00:05:09,392 --> 00:05:10,977
the moment.
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00:05:11,019 --> 00:05:12,538
The thing I don't
get, though, is,
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like, I've always been a little
bit silly and goofy, and...
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00:05:14,355 --> 00:05:15,982
[Orna] Mm-hm.
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00:05:16,024 --> 00:05:17,668
She used to laugh
with me and play with me,
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00:05:17,692 --> 00:05:19,819
and now, it aggravates her.
129
00:05:19,861 --> 00:05:22,530
Well, it sounds like Ping
is saying that she's missing
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00:05:22,572 --> 00:05:25,616
something else.
131
00:05:26,034 --> 00:05:28,661
Can you say what you're missing?
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00:05:28,703 --> 00:05:30,014
Well, in that particular moment,
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00:05:30,038 --> 00:05:32,665
I was really missing...
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00:05:32,707 --> 00:05:36,210
the person I fell in love with,
the person that was able to look
135
00:05:36,252 --> 00:05:38,046
at me without...
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00:05:38,087 --> 00:05:39,672
all this extra stuff.
137
00:05:39,714 --> 00:05:42,234
And yeah, there's... you know,
we have our jovial moments,
138
00:05:42,258 --> 00:05:44,052
but we had...
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00:05:44,093 --> 00:05:45,511
deep, intimate moments...
140
00:05:45,553 --> 00:05:47,513
- [Orna] Mm-hm.
- And...
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00:05:47,555 --> 00:05:49,533
in that particular
moment, it just felt
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00:05:49,557 --> 00:05:52,727
like he was resisting...
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00:05:52,769 --> 00:05:55,646
getting there with me, and...
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00:05:57,732 --> 00:05:59,233
and I felt rejected.
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00:05:59,275 --> 00:06:00,878
- [Orna] Mm-hm.
- You know?
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00:06:00,902 --> 00:06:02,195
And...
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00:06:02,236 --> 00:06:03,029
I know a wink is just a
wink, it's just a wink,
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00:06:03,071 --> 00:06:04,697
whatever, but it just...
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00:06:04,739 --> 00:06:06,216
- You felt rejected.
- [Ping] I felt rejected.
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00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:07,408
Mm-hm.
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00:06:07,450 --> 00:06:08,886
[Ping] I felt like he
wasn't there with me.
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00:06:08,910 --> 00:06:11,329
Mm-hm.
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00:06:11,746 --> 00:06:15,833
It's hard to have the patience.
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00:06:16,334 --> 00:06:19,045
Well, that's... that's
what I'm struggling with is
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00:06:19,087 --> 00:06:20,606
because, you know,
we've been together,
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00:06:20,630 --> 00:06:22,775
what, six, seven years, and I
feel like I've been patient,
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00:06:22,799 --> 00:06:24,777
I've been trying
to understand him,
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00:06:24,801 --> 00:06:26,070
and I was thinking
about it the other day;
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00:06:26,094 --> 00:06:28,554
one of the reasons why...
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00:06:28,596 --> 00:06:31,391
I did fall in love with him,
because I saw a little bit of me
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00:06:31,432 --> 00:06:33,118
the younger
version of me... in him,
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00:06:33,142 --> 00:06:35,079
and I wanted to take
care of that person,
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00:06:35,103 --> 00:06:38,564
and I wanted to be there in
a way that nobody was there
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00:06:38,606 --> 00:06:39,732
for me.
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00:06:39,774 --> 00:06:41,609
What did you see?
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00:06:41,651 --> 00:06:44,737
That inner child... you know,
the one that was neglected,
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00:06:44,779 --> 00:06:47,407
that wasn't given
what they needed, you know?
168
00:06:47,448 --> 00:06:49,283
- [Orna] Mm-hm.
- But...
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00:06:49,325 --> 00:06:51,095
Yeah, and that's what
connected me to him.
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00:06:51,119 --> 00:06:53,430
But I think over the years, I
found myself not getting what I
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00:06:53,454 --> 00:06:57,582
needed, and however I
expressed whatever I need,
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00:06:57,625 --> 00:07:00,753
he didn't hear it, I
didn't feel like he listened,
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00:07:00,795 --> 00:07:02,797
and I'm just tired.
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00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:06,050
- [Orna] Mm-hm.
- Like...
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00:07:06,384 --> 00:07:09,137
you know, it's... he
thinks I'm crying "Wolf."
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00:07:09,178 --> 00:07:10,322
He's like, "Oh, you always
say you're gonna leave."
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00:07:10,346 --> 00:07:11,764
I'm like, "No!
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00:07:11,806 --> 00:07:12,932
I don't want to leave!
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00:07:12,974 --> 00:07:14,451
I'm telling you I
don't want to leave,
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00:07:14,475 --> 00:07:17,270
but I feel like we're gonna
get to a certain point...
181
00:07:17,311 --> 00:07:18,604
where...
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00:07:18,646 --> 00:07:20,106
[voice cracking] I'm done!
183
00:07:20,148 --> 00:07:21,816
I... I can't do this anymore!"
184
00:07:21,858 --> 00:07:23,627
Like, yeah, I have
things I have to work on,
185
00:07:23,651 --> 00:07:26,779
but I feel like you're so
encapsulated in your own shit
186
00:07:26,821 --> 00:07:29,449
that you can't see
what you're throwing out,
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00:07:29,490 --> 00:07:31,135
and if you want to
throw it out, then fine!
188
00:07:31,159 --> 00:07:32,784
Then let me go!
189
00:07:32,827 --> 00:07:33,346
Move on!
190
00:07:33,370 --> 00:07:37,290
I would like to
move on with my life.
191
00:07:37,331 --> 00:07:40,251
[Orna] Mm-hm.
192
00:07:41,544 --> 00:07:44,630
I feel like, you know,
it's not my job to save him.
193
00:07:44,672 --> 00:07:49,135
I need to save myself, I
need to be here for myself.
194
00:07:49,177 --> 00:07:51,321
And I really thought I
had a partner in him,
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00:07:51,345 --> 00:07:54,140
I thought that we were
kinda kindred spirits that way,
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00:07:54,182 --> 00:07:55,766
but he's not!
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00:07:55,808 --> 00:07:58,811
He's a fucking little boy that
can't get out of his own fucking
198
00:07:58,853 --> 00:08:01,814
bubble or little cave or
whatever he created for himself,
199
00:08:01,856 --> 00:08:03,357
and I'm tired!
200
00:08:03,399 --> 00:08:05,860
[sniffles]
201
00:08:05,902 --> 00:08:08,196
I'm just tired.
202
00:08:08,237 --> 00:08:10,781
Mm-hm.
203
00:08:11,491 --> 00:08:14,327
I was thinking about what
you told us a few weeks ago.
204
00:08:14,368 --> 00:08:17,663
It's like yeah, I'm
starting to see the...
205
00:08:17,705 --> 00:08:19,999
masochistic dynamic
of our relationship.
206
00:08:20,041 --> 00:08:23,669
It's like okay, how much more of
this do we really need to do to
207
00:08:23,711 --> 00:08:26,797
each other, right?
Do we need to take?
208
00:08:32,385 --> 00:08:37,475
Moody ambient music
209
00:09:00,248 --> 00:09:01,916
[boy] Hi, doggy!
210
00:09:01,958 --> 00:09:04,377
- Hi!
- [Orna] Hello!
211
00:09:10,091 --> 00:09:12,927
So two weeks ago,
Molly and Josh had,
212
00:09:12,969 --> 00:09:14,887
like, an interesting...
213
00:09:14,929 --> 00:09:16,222
like, dramatic turn.
214
00:09:16,264 --> 00:09:17,557
Mm-hm.
215
00:09:17,598 --> 00:09:19,952
It was like an
outburst from her of...
216
00:09:19,976 --> 00:09:23,396
impatience, like real,
deep impatience with him and,
217
00:09:23,437 --> 00:09:24,939
vicariously, with me.
218
00:09:24,981 --> 00:09:26,232
[Virginia] Uh-huh!
219
00:09:26,274 --> 00:09:28,734
And they...
220
00:09:28,776 --> 00:09:30,778
cancelled the next session.
221
00:09:30,820 --> 00:09:32,071
Hm.
222
00:09:32,113 --> 00:09:33,757
With a pretend
excuse or not even?
223
00:09:33,781 --> 00:09:35,425
Nope, not a
pretend excuse at all.
224
00:09:35,449 --> 00:09:37,577
They suddenly got freaked out.
225
00:09:37,618 --> 00:09:41,747
You know how there's that
moment in therapy where...
226
00:09:41,789 --> 00:09:45,418
you hit, like, a real
spot, and suddenly,
227
00:09:45,459 --> 00:09:47,604
you decide, "I don't
need therapy anymore?"
228
00:09:47,628 --> 00:09:48,754
[Virginia] Absolutely.
229
00:09:48,796 --> 00:09:50,590
[Orna] So they got terrified.
230
00:09:50,631 --> 00:09:53,092
Right.
231
00:09:53,259 --> 00:09:57,430
I wonder if, in part, it was
because the amount of intensity
232
00:09:57,471 --> 00:10:01,767
and exhaustion and truth that
occurred in that session was a
233
00:10:01,809 --> 00:10:02,935
breakthrough.
234
00:10:02,977 --> 00:10:03,705
[Orna VO] Yeah.
235
00:10:03,729 --> 00:10:08,774
You could sort of see the entire
dynamic in that vignette that
236
00:10:08,816 --> 00:10:09,942
they came in with...
237
00:10:09,984 --> 00:10:10,735
[Virginia VO] Yeah.
238
00:10:10,776 --> 00:10:14,113
[Orna VO] With the whiteboard
and the choice of colors.
239
00:10:14,155 --> 00:10:17,950
When she's creating these scenes
and setting it up with her
240
00:10:17,992 --> 00:10:19,619
universe in her language...
241
00:10:19,660 --> 00:10:20,828
[Virginia VO] Yeah.
242
00:10:20,870 --> 00:10:22,472
[Orna VO] He's not
comfortable there.
243
00:10:22,496 --> 00:10:25,458
Not only not comfortable, he
may not want to be speaking her
244
00:10:25,499 --> 00:10:26,250
language...
245
00:10:26,292 --> 00:10:26,917
[Virginia VO] Yeah.
246
00:10:26,959 --> 00:10:28,979
[Orna VO] Which
is great for her, actually.
247
00:10:29,003 --> 00:10:30,463
[Virginia VO] Absolutely.
248
00:10:30,504 --> 00:10:32,149
With people who
aren't wired the same way,
249
00:10:32,173 --> 00:10:33,817
there's a lot of
work to be done...
250
00:10:33,841 --> 00:10:34,467
[Orna VO] Mm-hm.
251
00:10:34,508 --> 00:10:36,153
[Virginia VO] To let
everybody be their own person...
252
00:10:36,177 --> 00:10:36,886
[Orna VO] Yeah.
253
00:10:36,927 --> 00:10:39,680
[Virginia VO] And nonetheless
still partner with each other.
254
00:10:39,722 --> 00:10:42,600
[Orna VO] Right.
255
00:10:45,853 --> 00:10:48,356
When we left here last
time, we did not speak...
256
00:10:48,397 --> 00:10:50,000
- Yeah.
- The entire way home.
257
00:10:50,024 --> 00:10:51,317
Yeah.
258
00:10:51,359 --> 00:10:53,170
We didn't speak for the
rest of that evening...
259
00:10:53,194 --> 00:10:54,654
or, really, the next day.
260
00:10:54,695 --> 00:10:55,988
[Molly] Yeah.
261
00:10:56,030 --> 00:10:56,758
I was freaking out; I
was just freaking out,
262
00:10:56,782 --> 00:11:00,660
and I was freaking out because
I think what happened is...
263
00:11:00,701 --> 00:11:02,888
all I could think was
the sensational nature...
264
00:11:02,912 --> 00:11:04,038
Right.
265
00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:04,872
[Josh] Of the stuff
we were talking about.
266
00:11:04,914 --> 00:11:06,374
[Orna] Of course.
267
00:11:06,415 --> 00:11:10,336
And, you know, part of the
anxiety might also be related to
268
00:11:10,378 --> 00:11:13,381
the kind of anxiety one would
always feel in treatment...
269
00:11:13,422 --> 00:11:14,524
- Mm-hm.
- Right?
270
00:11:14,548 --> 00:11:16,360
Because you're
always, in a way...
271
00:11:16,384 --> 00:11:20,179
putting yourself out there,
which is often overwhelming.
272
00:11:20,221 --> 00:11:22,014
- Mm-hm.
- Right?
273
00:11:22,056 --> 00:11:26,185
And part of what
moves the process...
274
00:11:26,227 --> 00:11:29,522
and part of what gets people
out of their stuckness is,
275
00:11:29,563 --> 00:11:33,359
like, involving a third
person and another perspective.
276
00:11:33,401 --> 00:11:34,902
Mm-hm.
277
00:11:34,944 --> 00:11:39,365
Josh, did you have a particular
moment in the session that you
278
00:11:39,407 --> 00:11:41,200
found...
279
00:11:41,242 --> 00:11:45,037
either
particularly difficult, or...
280
00:11:45,079 --> 00:11:49,375
alarming, or transformative,
or something that you were
281
00:11:49,417 --> 00:11:51,043
responding to?
282
00:11:51,085 --> 00:11:53,730
[sighs] It's a
little blurry, honestly, for me.
283
00:11:53,754 --> 00:11:55,756
Um...
284
00:11:55,798 --> 00:11:58,259
like, it's, like, almost
like the drive home is,
285
00:11:58,300 --> 00:12:01,220
like, the thing that's
so vivid in my mind.
286
00:12:01,262 --> 00:12:03,723
Mm-hm, what about it?
287
00:12:03,764 --> 00:12:06,559
Um...
288
00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:09,395
The, like...
289
00:12:09,437 --> 00:12:11,415
I'm trying to be poetic
here, but the... like,
290
00:12:11,439 --> 00:12:12,898
the really loud silence.
291
00:12:12,940 --> 00:12:14,066
[Orna] Mm-hm.
292
00:12:14,108 --> 00:12:16,444
It felt thick and,
like, oppressive,
293
00:12:16,485 --> 00:12:19,947
like I could feel the space
that was living between us.
294
00:12:19,989 --> 00:12:21,425
- Mm-hm.
- [Josh] You know?
295
00:12:21,449 --> 00:12:23,784
- Mm-hm.
- And...
296
00:12:23,826 --> 00:12:27,079
I didn't work on my argument in
my head that I was going to make
297
00:12:27,121 --> 00:12:29,290
to you, which I do a lot.
298
00:12:29,331 --> 00:12:31,917
I write the scripts...
299
00:12:31,959 --> 00:12:33,252
Oftentimes, I don't even say it.
300
00:12:33,294 --> 00:12:34,295
Yes!
301
00:12:34,336 --> 00:12:36,589
Yes, and that's
why... oh my gosh!
302
00:12:36,630 --> 00:12:38,632
And that's why...
303
00:12:38,674 --> 00:12:40,634
it felt comfortable for me...
304
00:12:40,676 --> 00:12:42,094
[Orna] Mm-hm.
305
00:12:42,136 --> 00:12:45,097
To be silent, 'cause I also
didn't feel like I had to...
306
00:12:45,139 --> 00:12:48,267
You weren't continuing
a silent conversation.
307
00:12:48,309 --> 00:12:49,995
[Molly] And I didn't
feel like I had to say,
308
00:12:50,019 --> 00:12:53,105
"Honey, are you okay?"
I didn't feel that way.
309
00:12:53,147 --> 00:12:55,274
[Orna] Mm-hm.
310
00:12:55,316 --> 00:12:57,943
And so it was very freeing!
311
00:12:57,985 --> 00:12:59,779
[Orna] Mm-hm.
312
00:12:59,820 --> 00:13:03,908
I found that car ride very...
313
00:13:04,825 --> 00:13:09,121
hopeless, sad,
and comfortable...
314
00:13:09,163 --> 00:13:11,457
strangely.
315
00:13:11,499 --> 00:13:14,293
It just felt like there was
nothing to talk about in that
316
00:13:14,335 --> 00:13:17,797
moment, it was just like...
317
00:13:17,838 --> 00:13:19,673
"Okay.
[sighs]
318
00:13:19,715 --> 00:13:22,134
This is where we are, period."
319
00:13:22,176 --> 00:13:23,969
[Orna] Mm-hm.
320
00:13:24,011 --> 00:13:26,972
But I have a feeling, also,
that maybe in that moment,
321
00:13:27,014 --> 00:13:30,309
you were in despair...
322
00:13:30,351 --> 00:13:32,370
that that's what Josh
brings, and it will not
323
00:13:32,394 --> 00:13:33,646
necessarily change.
324
00:13:33,687 --> 00:13:35,147
[Molly] Yes, yes.
325
00:13:35,189 --> 00:13:36,500
[Orna] That you have to
find a different way of
326
00:13:36,524 --> 00:13:37,817
arranging yourself.
327
00:13:37,858 --> 00:13:39,985
Yes.
328
00:13:40,027 --> 00:13:42,506
Yeah, I mean, there...
That's kind of the hopelessness,
329
00:13:42,530 --> 00:13:45,115
right?
Is that...
330
00:13:51,205 --> 00:13:53,058
I don't... I don't wanna
use the word "settle,"
331
00:13:53,082 --> 00:13:54,667
because I don't like that word.
332
00:13:54,708 --> 00:13:58,838
I think it's the word... um...
333
00:13:58,879 --> 00:14:00,005
"accept."
334
00:14:00,047 --> 00:14:01,215
Mm-hm.
335
00:14:01,257 --> 00:14:03,360
He may never
change, I know that,
336
00:14:03,384 --> 00:14:05,719
but I only have
one chance at life.
337
00:14:05,761 --> 00:14:09,557
Should I be accept...
Like, shouldn't I be getting
338
00:14:09,598 --> 00:14:12,184
everything that I want?
339
00:14:12,226 --> 00:14:15,312
- Mm.
- [Molly] [sighs]
340
00:14:16,605 --> 00:14:21,569
moody ambient music
341
00:14:21,610 --> 00:14:23,696
Thank you.
342
00:14:37,585 --> 00:14:39,938
[Orna VO] It's
funny; like two weeks ago,
343
00:14:39,962 --> 00:14:44,258
I had this feeling that all
these crises are coming up.
344
00:14:44,300 --> 00:14:46,236
And I'm working,
working, working,
345
00:14:46,260 --> 00:14:48,405
and I'm like...
[inhales deeply]
346
00:14:48,429 --> 00:14:52,057
like, getting nervous
that I'm not managing to,
347
00:14:52,099 --> 00:14:55,561
like, help some of them enough.
348
00:14:55,853 --> 00:14:59,940
But then, just when I
hit that point in myself,
349
00:14:59,982 --> 00:15:02,902
like, the next session, some
of these couples came back,
350
00:15:02,943 --> 00:15:05,779
and they turned the corner.
351
00:15:05,821 --> 00:15:09,950
Like with Cyn and Yaya, they
kept going back... repeatedly,
352
00:15:09,992 --> 00:15:13,078
like a gong... to this
sense of failure around
353
00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:14,413
engaging sexually.
354
00:15:14,455 --> 00:15:15,581
Mm.
355
00:15:15,623 --> 00:15:17,767
And I was getting
really worried for them.
356
00:15:17,791 --> 00:15:19,418
Mm-hm.
357
00:15:19,460 --> 00:15:21,813
But then, they come back, and
Yaya says she sold her soul to
358
00:15:21,837 --> 00:15:22,398
the Devil...
359
00:15:22,422 --> 00:15:23,773
- [man] Yes.
- And brought her mother in...
360
00:15:23,797 --> 00:15:24,525
[woman] Mm-hm.
361
00:15:24,549 --> 00:15:26,401
[Orna] [chuckling] And then,
they told me that they did it!
362
00:15:26,425 --> 00:15:28,111
- [man] Yeah.
- [woman] Nice work.
363
00:15:28,135 --> 00:15:31,263
I wonder: how does
the mother link to this?
364
00:15:31,305 --> 00:15:32,033
[man] Yeah.
365
00:15:32,057 --> 00:15:35,643
[Nuar] Something that occurred
to me was that Cyn's sexual
366
00:15:35,684 --> 00:15:38,437
abuse was inside
of the family...
367
00:15:38,479 --> 00:15:39,813
Mm-hm.
368
00:15:39,855 --> 00:15:44,151
And now, she has children,
she's revisiting her trauma,
369
00:15:44,193 --> 00:15:47,321
and sex is inside
of the family again.
370
00:15:47,363 --> 00:15:48,049
- [Orna] Yeah.
- [man] Mm-hm.
371
00:15:48,073 --> 00:15:51,283
That's interesting because
her mother lives with them.
372
00:15:51,325 --> 00:15:52,469
- [man] Mm-hm.
- [woman] She does?
373
00:15:52,493 --> 00:15:53,637
- Okay.
- [man] Cyn's mother.
374
00:15:53,661 --> 00:15:54,846
- Yep.
- [man] Ah.
375
00:15:54,870 --> 00:15:56,514
And one of their kids
is exactly the age that
376
00:15:56,538 --> 00:15:57,623
she was abused.
377
00:15:57,665 --> 00:15:58,999
Oh, wow.
378
00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:00,977
So she's deep in it;
she's being re-traumatized.
379
00:16:01,001 --> 00:16:02,795
- [man] Mm-hm, yeah.
- Yeah.
380
00:16:02,836 --> 00:16:05,965
I wonder if she's ever had this
conversation with her mother.
381
00:16:06,006 --> 00:16:08,968
No, and I've asked them both to
maybe start thinking about doing
382
00:16:09,009 --> 00:16:10,135
those conversations.
383
00:16:10,177 --> 00:16:10,761
- [woman] Yeah.
- Mm-hm.
384
00:16:10,803 --> 00:16:12,989
[Orna] But I know this
is difficult for them.
385
00:16:13,013 --> 00:16:14,807
[man] Mm.
386
00:16:14,848 --> 00:16:17,643
Tender ambient music
387
00:16:43,919 --> 00:16:44,397
[Cyn VO] Oh, we
read, by the way.
388
00:16:44,421 --> 00:16:45,855
- [Yaya VO] Yeah.
- [Orna VO] Ah!
389
00:16:45,879 --> 00:16:48,465
[laughter]
390
00:16:48,757 --> 00:16:50,235
[Yaya VO] I was like,
"Ooh, this book is good."
391
00:16:50,259 --> 00:16:50,986
[Orna VO] Mm-hm.
392
00:16:51,010 --> 00:16:51,737
I was like, "I haven't read a
book in a very long time, Orna."
393
00:16:51,761 --> 00:16:54,197
Yeah, honestly, we have not
read a book in a long time.
394
00:16:54,221 --> 00:16:55,055
- Yeah.
- Mm-hm.
395
00:16:55,097 --> 00:16:56,849
When I read the part like...
396
00:16:56,890 --> 00:16:59,202
"You know how people
sometimes feel that sex is just,
397
00:16:59,226 --> 00:17:01,579
like, a spontaneous... like
it just happens naturally or
398
00:17:01,603 --> 00:17:02,730
whatever?
399
00:17:02,771 --> 00:17:03,873
Like, no, you can
schedule that shit.
400
00:17:03,897 --> 00:17:05,749
You can be like,
'Tomorrow, at 5PM,
401
00:17:05,773 --> 00:17:07,710
we're gonna meet and we're
gonna have sex, '" you know?
402
00:17:07,734 --> 00:17:08,861
Mm-hm.
403
00:17:08,902 --> 00:17:10,695
It is kind of all new.
404
00:17:10,738 --> 00:17:13,198
Like, we are kind of...
405
00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:15,075
in the honeymoon phase.
406
00:17:15,117 --> 00:17:18,704
I think it's more
'cause we're trying to...
407
00:17:18,746 --> 00:17:21,415
Well, it's kind of like we're
dating our new vers... like...
408
00:17:21,457 --> 00:17:22,600
- [Orna] Yeah.
- Our new selves.
409
00:17:22,624 --> 00:17:23,892
- The grown selves.
- [Orna] Mm-hm.
410
00:17:23,916 --> 00:17:25,377
Yeah.
411
00:17:25,419 --> 00:17:26,438
'Cause we were... we were young
when we first got together.
412
00:17:26,462 --> 00:17:27,588
Mm-hm.
413
00:17:27,628 --> 00:17:28,756
You know?
414
00:17:28,797 --> 00:17:29,381
So now we're...
415
00:17:29,423 --> 00:17:31,067
[Cyn] Again, we're
just learning each other.
416
00:17:31,091 --> 00:17:32,736
- That's wonderful.
- [Yaya] Yeah.
417
00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:34,887
So we appreciated that.
418
00:17:34,928 --> 00:17:36,906
Thank you very much
for forcing us to read.
419
00:17:36,930 --> 00:17:38,766
Mm-hm.
420
00:17:38,807 --> 00:17:40,577
She had a conversation with
her mom... an impromptu one.
421
00:17:40,601 --> 00:17:42,245
Oh, I did!
I forgot!
422
00:17:42,269 --> 00:17:43,228
- Wow!
- [Cyn] Oh my God!
423
00:17:43,270 --> 00:17:44,563
Oh, babe, I forgot about that!
424
00:17:44,605 --> 00:17:45,731
No, that was... that was big.
425
00:17:45,773 --> 00:17:47,066
Tell me!
426
00:17:47,107 --> 00:17:49,127
I said, "All right,
Mom, we gotta talk.
427
00:17:49,151 --> 00:17:54,239
Apparently, this whole thing
that happened with me as a kid
428
00:17:54,323 --> 00:17:57,910
is really affecting me,
so I need to fix this."
429
00:17:57,951 --> 00:17:58,679
Mm-hm.
430
00:17:58,703 --> 00:18:01,914
And that's where she verbalized
that she did actually speak to
431
00:18:01,955 --> 00:18:03,582
my uncle.
432
00:18:03,624 --> 00:18:07,086
She did actually try to keep him
away from us... or at least from
433
00:18:07,127 --> 00:18:09,481
me... and I have
never heard her say that.
434
00:18:09,505 --> 00:18:12,257
Wait, when did
she speak with him?
435
00:18:12,299 --> 00:18:15,928
I guess after... she
said that I told her.
436
00:18:15,969 --> 00:18:18,430
So I don't remember telling her.
437
00:18:18,472 --> 00:18:20,617
Yeah, she said you told
her around eight or nine.
438
00:18:20,641 --> 00:18:23,769
Yeah, and then
she said, "You know,
439
00:18:23,811 --> 00:18:26,647
Cyndy, there's a lot of things
that I went through when I was
440
00:18:26,688 --> 00:18:28,774
younger...
441
00:18:28,816 --> 00:18:31,276
but I don't think
about that anymore."
442
00:18:31,318 --> 00:18:32,945
And I'm like, "Okay."
443
00:18:32,986 --> 00:18:34,464
And I said, "Do you
wanna talk about it?"
444
00:18:34,488 --> 00:18:35,840
And she goes, "I don't
wanna talk about it;
445
00:18:35,864 --> 00:18:38,283
it's gonna bring it up again."
446
00:18:38,325 --> 00:18:39,827
So I just...
447
00:18:39,868 --> 00:18:42,329
let it be.
448
00:18:42,371 --> 00:18:45,457
How did you feel after
this conversation with her?
449
00:18:45,499 --> 00:18:47,310
I felt like...
[sighs] lighter.
450
00:18:47,334 --> 00:18:48,627
[Orna] Yeah.
451
00:18:48,669 --> 00:18:51,505
Like, I felt like...
452
00:18:51,547 --> 00:18:54,091
[sighs]
453
00:18:55,509 --> 00:18:56,969
like I was just able to breathe.
454
00:18:57,010 --> 00:18:58,637
[Orna] Mm-hm.
455
00:18:58,679 --> 00:19:01,306
That's very moving.
456
00:19:01,348 --> 00:19:04,601
Yeah, it, um...
457
00:19:06,019 --> 00:19:09,189
I'm hoping that
this'll change...
458
00:19:09,231 --> 00:19:12,484
the relationship that
we currently have...
459
00:19:12,526 --> 00:19:13,986
'cause I don't wanna...
460
00:19:14,027 --> 00:19:16,172
Well, you have at least a
little bit of information
461
00:19:16,196 --> 00:19:17,990
that...
462
00:19:18,031 --> 00:19:19,992
you can't really go back on...
463
00:19:20,033 --> 00:19:21,618
Yeah.
464
00:19:21,660 --> 00:19:23,680
That you did say something,
which I think will change how
465
00:19:23,704 --> 00:19:25,497
you feel about yourself.
466
00:19:25,539 --> 00:19:26,999
Yes.
467
00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:30,836
And it actually did...
468
00:19:30,878 --> 00:19:34,173
even just, like, the slight...
469
00:19:34,214 --> 00:19:35,674
changes.
470
00:19:35,716 --> 00:19:38,343
I can see how keeping to
myself, not saying anything,
471
00:19:38,385 --> 00:19:40,363
not expressing
how I was feeling,
472
00:19:40,387 --> 00:19:41,847
it came out in action.
473
00:19:41,889 --> 00:19:43,182
[Orna] Mm-hm.
474
00:19:43,223 --> 00:19:46,685
And how those actions
started to affect us.
475
00:19:46,727 --> 00:19:48,705
- Yeah.
- [Cyn] So that's helping.
476
00:19:48,729 --> 00:19:51,023
- Yeah.
- [Orna] Wonderful.
477
00:19:51,064 --> 00:19:55,360
So something I want us to
think about together is:
478
00:19:55,402 --> 00:19:58,697
What are each of
you gonna take from...
479
00:19:58,739 --> 00:20:01,033
our work?
480
00:20:01,074 --> 00:20:05,704
Just as something you can
go back to internally...
481
00:20:05,746 --> 00:20:09,041
if things slide back.
482
00:20:09,082 --> 00:20:13,212
For me, the biggest thing is
staying present... like not
483
00:20:13,253 --> 00:20:16,590
switching off the
light, you know?
484
00:20:16,632 --> 00:20:18,383
Being communicative.
485
00:20:18,425 --> 00:20:20,385
Mm-hm, that's very, very big.
486
00:20:20,427 --> 00:20:21,779
[Cyn] That's one of
your biggest things.
487
00:20:21,803 --> 00:20:23,573
- [Yaya] Yeah.
- You're doing good.
488
00:20:23,597 --> 00:20:25,224
[Orna] And for you, Cyn?
489
00:20:25,265 --> 00:20:27,726
Um...
490
00:20:27,768 --> 00:20:29,746
I'm gonna just keep
telling you what I want.
491
00:20:29,770 --> 00:20:31,623
[chuckles]
But also want...
492
00:20:31,647 --> 00:20:34,247
[chuckling] You've
always told me what you want.
493
00:20:34,274 --> 00:20:37,277
I think it's more of being
completely honest with her, too.
494
00:20:37,319 --> 00:20:38,737
[Orna] Mm-hm.
495
00:20:38,779 --> 00:20:40,632
You know, there are times
where I'll tell you stuff,
496
00:20:40,656 --> 00:20:44,076
but I, you know,
omit little details.
497
00:20:44,117 --> 00:20:46,245
Like?
498
00:20:46,286 --> 00:20:48,121
Like crushes.
499
00:20:48,163 --> 00:20:50,433
If I would say I have a crush,
you would just look at it as
500
00:20:50,457 --> 00:20:52,602
"Oh, it's
something that's little,"
501
00:20:52,626 --> 00:20:55,087
but it's not a little
thing, it's a big thing.
502
00:20:55,128 --> 00:20:56,755
Um...
503
00:20:56,797 --> 00:21:00,926
so things like
that, I wouldn't...
504
00:21:00,968 --> 00:21:04,263
keep that from you.
505
00:21:07,641 --> 00:21:09,142
Mm.
506
00:21:09,184 --> 00:21:11,979
And what's your reaction?
507
00:21:12,020 --> 00:21:15,065
I think it's bullshit.
508
00:21:15,148 --> 00:21:18,110
It's bullshit.
509
00:21:18,151 --> 00:21:19,671
- Mm-hm.
- [Yaya] It's like...
510
00:21:19,695 --> 00:21:23,740
right now, I feel raw.
I have all my emotions...
511
00:21:35,043 --> 00:21:36,670
It's just fucked up.
512
00:21:36,712 --> 00:21:38,314
[voice cracking] You know,
like I feel like I have all my
513
00:21:38,338 --> 00:21:40,966
emotions on my skin...
514
00:21:41,008 --> 00:21:44,803
like, on my surface, and then...
515
00:21:44,845 --> 00:21:47,514
I'm saying what I would do...
516
00:21:47,556 --> 00:21:52,311
to not fall back
into our old habits...
517
00:21:52,352 --> 00:21:54,163
and you're
worried about crushes?
518
00:21:54,187 --> 00:21:56,815
Like, that's...
519
00:21:56,857 --> 00:21:59,318
bullshit.
520
00:22:01,028 --> 00:22:03,697
[Orna] Why do you think of that?
521
00:22:03,739 --> 00:22:06,325
This is me just trying to be...
522
00:22:06,366 --> 00:22:08,035
honest with you.
523
00:22:08,076 --> 00:22:11,663
But why bring it up now,
at this particular moment?
524
00:22:11,705 --> 00:22:13,558
I'm not saying
that as a critique.
525
00:22:13,582 --> 00:22:16,668
- [Cyn] Mm.
- I'm really curious.
526
00:22:16,710 --> 00:22:18,795
[sighs]
527
00:22:19,004 --> 00:22:21,840
Is that, like, self-sabotage?
528
00:22:21,882 --> 00:22:24,676
It's like you're
saying something like...
529
00:22:24,718 --> 00:22:27,220
"But I'm still...
530
00:22:27,262 --> 00:22:30,474
a source of danger."
531
00:22:31,266 --> 00:22:33,727
It's not like I was...
532
00:22:33,769 --> 00:22:38,023
you know, meaning to... to
hurt you all over again.
533
00:22:38,523 --> 00:22:42,861
[sighs] It was just an
example that I used.
534
00:22:42,903 --> 00:22:45,572
I honestly didn't
think of it that way.
535
00:22:45,614 --> 00:22:49,493
And I didn't mean to
make you feel this way.
536
00:22:51,578 --> 00:22:54,873
I think what would be helpful
at this point is not... Cyn,
537
00:22:54,915 --> 00:22:59,252
not for you to feel
like you need to...
538
00:22:59,294 --> 00:23:02,381
dig yourself out
of some kind of...
539
00:23:02,422 --> 00:23:04,734
- [Cyn] Hole.
- Hole that you fell into...
540
00:23:04,758 --> 00:23:06,259
[Cyn] Mm-hm.
541
00:23:06,301 --> 00:23:10,931
But to ask yourself why did
you create that hole right now.
542
00:23:10,972 --> 00:23:14,559
And Cyn, I would not...
543
00:23:14,601 --> 00:23:16,913
turn this into a big
conversation between the two of
544
00:23:16,937 --> 00:23:19,606
you, but I would
turn it inward into,
545
00:23:19,648 --> 00:23:22,442
like, asking yourself
what, unconsciously,
546
00:23:22,484 --> 00:23:24,403
were you...
547
00:23:24,444 --> 00:23:25,195
[Cyn] Trying to say?
548
00:23:25,237 --> 00:23:29,408
Trying to do or communicate or
communicate to yourself or to
549
00:23:29,449 --> 00:23:31,743
Yaya.
550
00:23:31,785 --> 00:23:34,037
Mm.
551
00:23:34,246 --> 00:23:36,581
Or to me.
552
00:23:36,623 --> 00:23:39,251
Maybe you're
saying something to me.
553
00:23:39,292 --> 00:23:40,460
[Cyn] Mm.
554
00:23:40,502 --> 00:23:43,422
Maybe you're telling
me our work is not done.
555
00:23:43,463 --> 00:23:46,425
[sighs]
556
00:23:46,466 --> 00:23:51,054
tender piano music
557
00:24:00,188 --> 00:24:05,277
I've been staring out my window
558
00:24:06,820 --> 00:24:11,241
Not sure if I have
the strength to go
559
00:24:13,869 --> 00:24:17,581
Been staring out this window
560
00:24:19,499 --> 00:24:23,587
Knowing I can't stay no more
561
00:24:27,007 --> 00:24:30,427
I've been thinkin'
'bout my own self
562
00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:37,434
I've been thinkin'
'bout my own self
563
00:24:39,853 --> 00:24:43,482
So I need to lift
from this perch
564
00:24:43,523 --> 00:24:45,275
(Fly Away)
565
00:24:45,859 --> 00:24:50,155
I need to find the
strength for my search
41585
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