Would you like to inspect the original subtitles? These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated:
1
00:00:05,762 --> 00:00:09,762
www.titlovi.com
2
00:00:12,762 --> 00:00:14,223
Newsreader: Federal
officials say
3
00:00:14,263 --> 00:00:15,617
their most promising lead yet
in the Unabomber case
4
00:00:15,641 --> 00:00:17,140
has them searching
the home tonight
5
00:00:17,184 --> 00:00:18,734
of a man who lives south
6
00:00:18,768 --> 00:00:20,978
of the small town of Lincoln,
Montana.
7
00:00:49,173 --> 00:00:50,183
Holy crap,
8
00:00:50,216 --> 00:00:52,587
there was like 78 agents
on the hill,
9
00:00:52,636 --> 00:00:55,216
that you couldn't even see,
10
00:00:55,514 --> 00:00:57,274
until after he was arrested.
11
00:00:57,307 --> 00:00:59,637
These men were like
jumping up and down,
12
00:00:59,685 --> 00:01:01,094
they were all happy,
13
00:01:01,143 --> 00:01:02,653
slapping each other on the back,
14
00:01:02,688 --> 00:01:04,938
"We got him! We got him!"
15
00:01:04,981 --> 00:01:08,992
We were watching
the evening news and uh...
16
00:01:09,028 --> 00:01:10,698
they said they'd arrested
a suspect
17
00:01:10,737 --> 00:01:12,408
in the Unabomber case
18
00:01:12,447 --> 00:01:15,027
and there was a local angle
to the story.
19
00:01:15,075 --> 00:01:16,575
Oh my God.
20
00:01:17,786 --> 00:01:19,615
And there is my brother
and he's, gosh,
21
00:01:19,662 --> 00:01:21,623
he's looking
like a mountain man,
22
00:01:21,664 --> 00:01:24,914
all torn clothes, scraggly hair.
23
00:01:26,168 --> 00:01:27,879
Linda: And we were so mad
at the FBI
24
00:01:27,921 --> 00:01:29,632
because they had promised
25
00:01:29,673 --> 00:01:31,802
that our names would not
be revealed,
26
00:01:31,841 --> 00:01:33,932
and that they would notify us
ahead of time
27
00:01:33,968 --> 00:01:36,058
before the arrest was made.
28
00:01:36,094 --> 00:01:39,134
The FBI has arrested
a suspect in Montana
29
00:01:39,182 --> 00:01:41,391
after he was fingered
by relatives.
30
00:01:41,435 --> 00:01:44,265
First of all, that word
"fingered" bothered me.
31
00:01:44,854 --> 00:01:48,395
Um, doesn't really encapsulate
32
00:01:48,442 --> 00:01:50,991
what we went through
in terms of the process
33
00:01:51,027 --> 00:01:53,448
and the-the care and the grief
34
00:01:53,487 --> 00:01:55,908
that went into what we did.
35
00:01:57,450 --> 00:01:59,540
Newsreader: Neighbors here said
that since the 1970s,
36
00:01:59,578 --> 00:02:02,578
Kaczynski has been living
a solitary life.
37
00:02:02,623 --> 00:02:06,462
A reclusive man some called
the "Hermit on the Hill."
38
00:02:07,126 --> 00:02:08,836
It was disbelief.
39
00:02:08,878 --> 00:02:11,209
It was absolute disbelief.
40
00:02:11,256 --> 00:02:12,756
It was so surreal.
41
00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:15,759
I never would have thought
42
00:02:15,802 --> 00:02:17,682
that my neighbor
43
00:02:17,721 --> 00:02:20,271
was sitting in that little cabin
44
00:02:20,306 --> 00:02:22,137
creating bombs
45
00:02:22,182 --> 00:02:24,353
and killing people
46
00:02:24,394 --> 00:02:28,074
while he lived a half
a mile away from us.
47
00:02:31,234 --> 00:02:34,454
* Man,
now what has been done *
48
00:02:35,864 --> 00:02:38,033
* Man can't stand himself *
49
00:02:38,074 --> 00:02:41,034
* Or where he's told
that he belongs *
50
00:02:42,203 --> 00:02:45,043
* Man don't understand *
51
00:02:45,081 --> 00:02:47,671
* Man blames everyone *
52
00:02:47,709 --> 00:02:50,878
* Everyone under the sun *
53
00:02:50,920 --> 00:02:53,631
* Tell me what has Man become *
54
00:02:55,009 --> 00:02:57,549
* Man can't help himself *
55
00:02:57,593 --> 00:03:00,854
* Don't know where he can run *
56
00:03:00,889 --> 00:03:03,389
* Man can't run for help *
57
00:03:03,432 --> 00:03:05,853
* Can't stand anybody else *
58
00:03:07,354 --> 00:03:10,234
* Man don't know
where he's from *
59
00:03:10,272 --> 00:03:13,193
* Don't know where he belong *
60
00:03:13,234 --> 00:03:16,204
* Now would Man trade tomorrow *
61
00:03:16,236 --> 00:03:18,986
* For a time long forgotten *
62
00:03:20,867 --> 00:03:22,617
Ted: No. It was
simply anger and revenge,
63
00:03:22,661 --> 00:03:24,290
and I was... I was going
to strike back.
64
00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:28,040
Try not to get blown up.
65
00:03:28,082 --> 00:03:30,043
* Man don't understand *
66
00:03:30,085 --> 00:03:31,835
* What has man become *
67
00:03:37,009 --> 00:03:38,549
Reporter 1: Sir, are you
the Unabomber?
68
00:03:38,593 --> 00:03:40,013
Reporter 2: Are you
the Unabomber?
69
00:03:40,054 --> 00:03:43,683
When the Unabomber is
arrested and identified,
70
00:03:43,723 --> 00:03:46,394
especially since he went
for 17 years
71
00:03:46,433 --> 00:03:48,313
committing these crimes,
72
00:03:48,353 --> 00:03:50,312
wow, it's-it's of course
73
00:03:50,354 --> 00:03:51,764
it's a feeding frenzy
for the media.
74
00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:54,740
David: We ended up surrounded,
75
00:03:54,776 --> 00:03:57,105
kind of in a siege, you know.
76
00:03:57,153 --> 00:03:59,033
Newsreader: Ted Kaczynski's
brother, David,
77
00:03:59,073 --> 00:04:01,082
who remains secluded in
this Schenectady house...
78
00:04:01,116 --> 00:04:02,735
Linda: Some people said
there were
79
00:04:02,783 --> 00:04:04,493
a hundred people out there
80
00:04:04,536 --> 00:04:06,996
and some of the children
down the block came
81
00:04:07,038 --> 00:04:09,169
and marched and said,
go away, go away,
82
00:04:09,207 --> 00:04:11,668
you shouldn't be bothering
these people.
83
00:04:11,710 --> 00:04:13,250
That was nice of them.
84
00:04:13,294 --> 00:04:15,054
Uh, they weren't leaving
with their cameras
85
00:04:15,088 --> 00:04:16,668
and their notebooks
86
00:04:16,714 --> 00:04:18,504
until we came out
and talked to them.
87
00:04:18,550 --> 00:04:20,028
And I would have rather walked
into fire
88
00:04:20,052 --> 00:04:22,932
than walked into those cameras
at that moment,
89
00:04:22,971 --> 00:04:26,271
it was like the worst possible
pain you could be feeling
90
00:04:26,307 --> 00:04:28,226
and then it's all public.
91
00:04:28,268 --> 00:04:29,848
Here's my mother,
92
00:04:29,894 --> 00:04:32,105
and she's got to go
through this now.
93
00:04:33,314 --> 00:04:34,863
As soon as we get out the door,
94
00:04:34,899 --> 00:04:36,610
all the lights come on
95
00:04:36,651 --> 00:04:38,281
and people are yelling at mom,
96
00:04:38,319 --> 00:04:40,158
are saying,
"Mrs. Kaczynski,
97
00:04:40,197 --> 00:04:42,067
do you think your son's
the Unabomber?"
98
00:04:42,115 --> 00:04:44,156
And she answered, she said,
99
00:04:44,201 --> 00:04:46,620
"I don't know, you people
know more than I do",
100
00:04:46,661 --> 00:04:48,081
I think is what she said.
101
00:04:50,206 --> 00:04:51,997
Greg: They attempted
to interview Ted
102
00:04:52,042 --> 00:04:53,922
immediately after arresting him.
103
00:04:53,961 --> 00:04:56,341
And he refused to be
interviewed basically.
104
00:05:14,730 --> 00:05:16,730
Kevin: I get a call saying,
105
00:05:16,774 --> 00:05:18,605
"You gotta go to uh...
gotta go to Montana."
106
00:05:18,651 --> 00:05:20,281
You know, at the...
at the time,
107
00:05:20,319 --> 00:05:22,740
there were no GPS capabilities,
108
00:05:22,781 --> 00:05:24,490
so we get a paper map,
109
00:05:24,531 --> 00:05:27,451
and we look at the squiggly
black lines
110
00:05:27,494 --> 00:05:30,254
leading to this little
500-person nowhere,
111
00:05:30,288 --> 00:05:32,538
which is, you know,
112
00:05:32,581 --> 00:05:34,792
a hellacious drive over
some mountains far away.
113
00:05:34,834 --> 00:05:36,584
And we get to the cabin
114
00:05:36,627 --> 00:05:40,048
and the FBI guys are still
rousting the place
115
00:05:40,090 --> 00:05:42,720
and uh, tossing it like a...
uh...
116
00:05:42,759 --> 00:05:44,509
like a bear in a garbage can.
117
00:05:45,887 --> 00:05:47,726
And they're-they're finding
all kinds of clues.
118
00:05:47,764 --> 00:05:49,144
They're finding the typewriter.
119
00:05:49,182 --> 00:05:51,143
They're finding other writings.
120
00:05:51,185 --> 00:05:53,305
They're finding bomb materials.
It's a gold mine.
121
00:05:54,896 --> 00:05:58,185
Greg: There was notes about
the construction of the bombs,
122
00:05:58,233 --> 00:06:00,322
the selection of the victims,
123
00:06:00,358 --> 00:06:02,738
a rough draft of the manifesto.
124
00:06:04,656 --> 00:06:06,615
Turned out there was
a hoodie and a pair
125
00:06:06,658 --> 00:06:08,697
of aviation sunglasses
in the cabin.
126
00:06:29,930 --> 00:06:31,365
Joel: There were three of us
in there
127
00:06:31,389 --> 00:06:33,389
who were looking at things,
128
00:06:33,433 --> 00:06:37,274
and one of the three
pulled out a box
129
00:06:37,314 --> 00:06:40,074
from under Mr. Kaczynski's bed.
130
00:06:41,399 --> 00:06:42,899
It was just a cardboard box,
131
00:06:42,944 --> 00:06:45,244
and inside it was a plastic bag,
132
00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:48,409
and inside the plastic bag
was a box
133
00:06:48,449 --> 00:06:51,749
wrapped entirely in aluminum
foil.
134
00:06:53,620 --> 00:06:55,581
And in this cabin,
135
00:06:55,622 --> 00:06:57,923
which was extremely smoky,
136
00:06:59,086 --> 00:07:00,665
uh, there was a lot of soot,
137
00:07:00,711 --> 00:07:02,762
it was a dark place.
138
00:07:02,797 --> 00:07:04,836
All of a sudden, was this shiny,
139
00:07:04,882 --> 00:07:06,262
glowing cube,
140
00:07:07,552 --> 00:07:10,601
and at that moment,
as in a cartoon,
141
00:07:10,637 --> 00:07:13,557
the light bulb lit over each
person's head,
142
00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:16,139
and the person
that was holding it,
143
00:07:16,185 --> 00:07:17,896
set it down,
144
00:07:17,937 --> 00:07:20,108
and we backed away very quietly.
145
00:07:20,148 --> 00:07:22,278
And it turned out
that was a bomb,
146
00:07:22,317 --> 00:07:24,606
it was completely ready to go,
147
00:07:24,651 --> 00:07:26,531
had the battery in it,
everything else.
148
00:07:26,571 --> 00:07:28,201
It seemed apparent
149
00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:30,329
that as soon as the weather
cleared Mr. Kaczynski
150
00:07:30,367 --> 00:07:31,656
was going to be headed out
151
00:07:31,701 --> 00:07:34,620
to deliver that into
the mail-stream
152
00:07:34,661 --> 00:07:36,422
and on to its victim.
153
00:07:36,456 --> 00:07:37,915
The moment I found that out,
154
00:07:37,957 --> 00:07:39,418
I realized,
155
00:07:39,459 --> 00:07:41,499
thank God we did what we did.
156
00:07:41,543 --> 00:07:45,014
Thank God, we saved a life
in the end.
157
00:07:45,048 --> 00:07:47,177
I did what I did
with the heaviest heart
158
00:07:47,216 --> 00:07:49,927
I've ever had.
159
00:07:49,970 --> 00:07:52,389
When Ted was arrested
160
00:07:52,430 --> 00:07:55,350
and assigned a provisional
attorney,
161
00:07:57,269 --> 00:07:59,269
um, the first thing he asked
the attorney was,
162
00:07:59,312 --> 00:08:01,612
"How did they ever find me?"
163
00:08:01,648 --> 00:08:03,517
And the attorney said,
164
00:08:03,565 --> 00:08:05,735
"Well, um, it's being reported
165
00:08:05,776 --> 00:08:07,737
that your brother
turned you in."
166
00:08:09,238 --> 00:08:11,408
And again,
I heard this third hand
167
00:08:11,449 --> 00:08:14,410
but Ted had said,
"No, that's not possible,
168
00:08:14,452 --> 00:08:16,622
David loves me,
he'd never do that."
169
00:08:18,122 --> 00:08:19,713
I don't know if it was
at that point
170
00:08:19,749 --> 00:08:21,668
or at some point,
he told his attorneys
171
00:08:21,709 --> 00:08:23,999
that he would never ever
have anything to do
172
00:08:24,045 --> 00:08:26,545
with his family again.
173
00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:33,510
That as far as he was
concerned, I was no brother.
174
00:08:35,639 --> 00:08:37,230
Kevin: Then we go
for the perp walk.
175
00:08:37,267 --> 00:08:40,476
When Ted gets trotted out
to go to the courthouse.
176
00:08:40,519 --> 00:08:42,610
So, deputies bring Ted out
177
00:08:42,647 --> 00:08:44,187
and he's walking...
178
00:08:45,442 --> 00:08:47,322
like a ramrod.
179
00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:49,150
And I'm thinking,
180
00:08:49,196 --> 00:08:51,256
this is the only chance I'm
gonna get to talk to this guy.
181
00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:53,451
So, I jump over the berm
and I run over to him
182
00:08:53,491 --> 00:08:55,241
while the cops
are pulling him off.
183
00:08:55,284 --> 00:08:57,195
So, I'm talking to the guy.
184
00:08:57,245 --> 00:08:59,705
Kevin: Ted, did you do it?
185
00:08:59,746 --> 00:09:02,917
"Did you kill people?
Are you really the Unabomber?"
186
00:09:02,958 --> 00:09:05,379
He's looking straight ahead.
187
00:09:05,419 --> 00:09:08,470
And he turns, at one point,
and says, "No".
188
00:09:09,966 --> 00:09:11,610
Reporter: Are you responsible
for these bombings?
189
00:09:11,634 --> 00:09:13,236
Kevin: But the interesting
thing to me, for that,
190
00:09:13,260 --> 00:09:15,010
is he's very much in control.
191
00:09:15,054 --> 00:09:16,884
This, this is who he is.
192
00:09:16,931 --> 00:09:20,770
He's not a guy who explodes,
loses it.
193
00:09:22,479 --> 00:09:24,859
He's a tightly controlled guy,
and he's very smart.
194
00:09:26,191 --> 00:09:27,730
Newsreader: The accused
Unabomber
195
00:09:27,774 --> 00:09:29,605
was brought from his jail cell
in Montana
196
00:09:29,652 --> 00:09:32,162
to an airfield in Sacramento,
Sunday morning.
197
00:09:32,197 --> 00:09:34,027
He was sporting a bullet
proof vest
198
00:09:34,073 --> 00:09:35,703
plus shackles and handcuffs.
199
00:09:36,909 --> 00:09:38,950
My biggest concern was
200
00:09:38,995 --> 00:09:41,154
I didn't want my brother
to get the death penalty.
201
00:09:42,831 --> 00:09:46,091
The only possible acceptable
ending of this
202
00:09:46,126 --> 00:09:48,086
is for my brother
to get a life sentence
203
00:09:48,129 --> 00:09:49,918
rather than a death sentence.
204
00:09:49,963 --> 00:09:51,884
I could not picture
what it would be like
205
00:09:51,924 --> 00:09:53,585
for mom and me be,
206
00:09:53,634 --> 00:09:55,644
you know, looking at the clock
and you know,
207
00:09:55,677 --> 00:09:57,508
hands of the clock
are going to midnight,
208
00:09:57,556 --> 00:09:59,491
and knowing that Ted's being
strapped into a gurney
209
00:09:59,515 --> 00:10:01,306
and executed.
210
00:10:02,643 --> 00:10:04,153
That was unthinkable.
211
00:10:06,355 --> 00:10:08,686
Reporter: Are you responsible
for these bombings?
212
00:10:08,732 --> 00:10:10,613
Sir, Are you responsible
for these bombings?
213
00:10:11,903 --> 00:10:13,572
Guys, let's just
let him through.
214
00:10:13,613 --> 00:10:15,202
Take the hold.
-Stay back.
215
00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:17,740
Kevin: It's instantly
a circus trial.
216
00:10:17,783 --> 00:10:19,583
David, his brother,
217
00:10:19,619 --> 00:10:21,698
is positioning to try
218
00:10:21,745 --> 00:10:23,576
to get him out of the death
penalty,
219
00:10:23,623 --> 00:10:26,003
and David doesn't have
a whole lot of say,
220
00:10:26,042 --> 00:10:28,211
but he's... he's forceful.
221
00:10:29,044 --> 00:10:33,004
And Ted is insisting
that he's not crazy.
222
00:10:40,264 --> 00:10:42,345
Phillip: A person can be found
insane
223
00:10:42,392 --> 00:10:45,231
if they have a severe mental
defect
224
00:10:45,269 --> 00:10:48,480
which causes them not
to know the nature
225
00:10:48,523 --> 00:10:50,192
and quality of their act,
226
00:10:50,232 --> 00:10:51,863
or the wrongfulness
of their act.
227
00:10:51,900 --> 00:10:53,900
But in his case,
228
00:10:53,945 --> 00:10:56,615
the evidence that he knew
his act was wrong
229
00:10:56,655 --> 00:10:58,615
was extensive.
230
00:10:58,658 --> 00:11:00,618
And so, I think that
the defense attorneys
231
00:11:00,659 --> 00:11:05,039
knew that they'd have a very
hard time with insanity,
232
00:11:05,081 --> 00:11:08,130
but their goal was to convey
to the jury
233
00:11:08,168 --> 00:11:09,957
his degree of mental illness,
234
00:11:10,003 --> 00:11:12,592
so that they would consider
not executing him.
235
00:11:24,682 --> 00:11:27,692
I learned that in the opening
arguments for the defense,
236
00:11:27,727 --> 00:11:30,107
they planned to show one picture
237
00:11:30,148 --> 00:11:33,317
of Theodore Kaczynski
as a professor,
238
00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:35,820
dressed very nicely,
239
00:11:35,861 --> 00:11:37,701
and the other was the picture
240
00:11:37,738 --> 00:11:41,368
when he's scruffy
and being taken out,
241
00:11:41,408 --> 00:11:43,448
as being captured.
242
00:11:43,495 --> 00:11:48,245
So how did this successful
mathematician turn into
243
00:11:48,290 --> 00:11:51,290
this kind of primitive-looking
person?
244
00:11:53,212 --> 00:11:56,092
Newsreader: Meanwhile, the
FBI's explored the possibility
245
00:11:56,131 --> 00:11:59,011
of having a Montana National
Guard helicopter
246
00:11:59,052 --> 00:12:01,182
hoist Kaczynski's tiny shack
247
00:12:01,221 --> 00:12:03,181
onto a flatbed truck
248
00:12:03,222 --> 00:12:05,602
and then haul it out
of the deep woods.
249
00:12:22,408 --> 00:12:24,489
John: Nothing made me think
he was some madman.
250
00:12:24,536 --> 00:12:28,155
I wouldn't have been interested
in visiting with him
251
00:12:28,206 --> 00:12:30,956
if, if I thought he was some
psychotic individual
252
00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:33,460
who had delusions
or something like that.
253
00:12:33,503 --> 00:12:36,763
Ted Kaczynski and I
started corresponding
254
00:12:36,797 --> 00:12:39,677
soon after his arrest
in April '96.
255
00:12:41,177 --> 00:12:43,677
Between the spring of '97
256
00:12:43,721 --> 00:12:46,182
and the beginning of 1998,
257
00:12:46,224 --> 00:12:48,693
I visited him three
or four times.
258
00:12:48,726 --> 00:12:51,767
That was quite an experience
just for me
259
00:12:51,812 --> 00:12:54,942
and of course, I wasn't-
it wasn't my ass on the line.
260
00:12:57,317 --> 00:12:58,238
We were friendly, yeah.
261
00:12:58,278 --> 00:12:59,462
Yeah, it was very comfortable.
262
00:12:59,486 --> 00:13:01,486
I mean, it was very informal.
263
00:13:01,530 --> 00:13:03,370
You know. "How you doin', Ted?"
264
00:13:03,408 --> 00:13:05,778
I guess he just wanted somebody
to talk to.
265
00:13:05,826 --> 00:13:07,995
I believe I was the only
visitor he had.
266
00:13:08,037 --> 00:13:10,116
But I saw nothing whatsoever,
267
00:13:10,163 --> 00:13:12,833
nothing even slightly
to suggest he was crazy.
268
00:13:14,251 --> 00:13:16,131
Newsreader: The finding
that Theodore Kaczynski
269
00:13:16,169 --> 00:13:17,799
is competent to stand trial
270
00:13:17,837 --> 00:13:19,587
came after he spent nearly
20 hours
271
00:13:19,633 --> 00:13:22,393
being examined by psychiatrist,
Sally Johnson.
272
00:13:22,427 --> 00:13:26,346
And she diagnosed him as
competent to stand trial,
273
00:13:26,389 --> 00:13:28,639
competent even to be sentenced
to death,
274
00:13:28,682 --> 00:13:30,562
competent to defend himself,
275
00:13:30,601 --> 00:13:32,902
but having schizophrenia.
276
00:13:34,522 --> 00:13:36,152
Sasha: In prepping
for the trial,
277
00:13:36,190 --> 00:13:38,168
the defense team was looking
for mitigating evidence.
278
00:13:38,192 --> 00:13:40,701
These are any factors
that could help the team
279
00:13:40,736 --> 00:13:43,986
try to convince the jury
not to put Ted to death.
280
00:14:07,429 --> 00:14:09,389
John: But as things went on,
281
00:14:09,432 --> 00:14:11,142
matters got more and more tense.
282
00:14:11,183 --> 00:14:14,274
Because the main thing
that he said over and over
283
00:14:14,312 --> 00:14:16,062
and over again was,
284
00:14:16,105 --> 00:14:17,764
"You can adopt any defense
you like,
285
00:14:17,816 --> 00:14:19,395
except insanity defense,
286
00:14:20,610 --> 00:14:22,990
which would make a mockery
of my work,
287
00:14:23,028 --> 00:14:25,778
the whole reason that I exist."
288
00:14:27,533 --> 00:14:31,083
I was shocked by the defense
team's decision
289
00:14:32,455 --> 00:14:34,365
that when they go to trial,
290
00:14:35,542 --> 00:14:37,591
that they were going to use
291
00:14:37,626 --> 00:14:40,086
the information of him being
292
00:14:40,129 --> 00:14:42,629
three years at Harvard
University in an experiment.
293
00:14:43,923 --> 00:14:45,594
So part of what the defense
team found
294
00:14:45,634 --> 00:14:48,424
were fragmentary records
of a psychological study
295
00:14:48,471 --> 00:14:51,100
that Ted had participated in
296
00:14:51,139 --> 00:14:52,769
during his undergrad days
at Harvard.
297
00:14:52,808 --> 00:14:55,399
The study lasted over
a period of 3 years
298
00:14:55,436 --> 00:14:57,056
and they met on a weekly basis.
299
00:14:58,355 --> 00:14:59,765
It's never been heard in public.
300
00:15:04,571 --> 00:15:06,280
We have no idea what happened
301
00:15:06,322 --> 00:15:08,621
over the course
of the 3-year period.
302
00:15:08,658 --> 00:15:11,158
This audio only gives us
a very small glance
303
00:15:11,201 --> 00:15:12,951
into what really happened.
304
00:15:29,345 --> 00:15:31,345
I didn't know
about the experiments
305
00:15:31,389 --> 00:15:33,139
Ted was undergoing.
306
00:15:33,182 --> 00:15:34,932
He never talked
about them to me.
307
00:15:34,975 --> 00:15:37,014
I don't remember it being
a conversation
308
00:15:37,061 --> 00:15:41,110
within our family until
long after Ted's arrest.
309
00:15:41,148 --> 00:15:43,937
My brother was subjected
to research
310
00:15:43,984 --> 00:15:46,033
that by today's standards
311
00:15:46,070 --> 00:15:48,279
would be considered
completely unethical.
312
00:16:02,001 --> 00:16:04,052
Roy: He was one of the people
313
00:16:04,087 --> 00:16:06,217
that I really considered
a best friend.
314
00:16:07,759 --> 00:16:11,889
I have just a wonderfully warm
feeling about him,
315
00:16:11,929 --> 00:16:14,269
and I think I used
the word lovable.
316
00:16:15,515 --> 00:16:17,975
We found common ground
317
00:16:18,018 --> 00:16:21,057
and I remember lots and lots
of wonderful discussions
318
00:16:21,105 --> 00:16:23,264
and so I really valued
our friendship.
319
00:16:24,484 --> 00:16:26,283
It was sad to see that he,
320
00:16:27,486 --> 00:16:29,777
as a result of some experiments,
321
00:16:29,822 --> 00:16:32,202
withdrew from the friendship.
322
00:16:33,618 --> 00:16:37,327
If I had known how evil -
and I'll use that word -
323
00:16:37,370 --> 00:16:39,540
those experiments were,
324
00:16:39,581 --> 00:16:41,081
I certainly would
have done something.
325
00:16:56,682 --> 00:16:58,451
Sasha: This experiment
basically was an experiment
326
00:16:58,475 --> 00:17:00,385
run by Henry Murray,
327
00:17:00,436 --> 00:17:02,145
At the Harvard psych department.
328
00:17:02,187 --> 00:17:04,817
But when it comes to these
interviews with Ted,
329
00:17:04,857 --> 00:17:06,817
the files are sealed.
330
00:17:06,859 --> 00:17:08,240
You can't get access to them.
331
00:17:23,459 --> 00:17:25,749
What we do know for certain
332
00:17:25,795 --> 00:17:27,914
is that Henry Murray
was looking into
333
00:17:27,963 --> 00:17:30,423
the effects of stress
on human beings,
334
00:17:30,465 --> 00:17:32,256
specifically he was looking at
335
00:17:32,300 --> 00:17:34,681
interrogation strategies
and techniques
336
00:17:34,721 --> 00:17:36,681
and how human beings are able to
337
00:17:36,722 --> 00:17:38,603
kind of be resilient
338
00:17:38,641 --> 00:17:40,480
to aggressive interrogative
tactics.
339
00:17:40,518 --> 00:17:42,268
It was very unpleasant.
340
00:17:42,310 --> 00:17:44,191
That was the point
of the experiment.
341
00:17:44,230 --> 00:17:46,940
He wanted to understand
the dark sides of human beings
342
00:17:46,982 --> 00:17:48,992
and the light sides
of human beings.
343
00:17:59,369 --> 00:18:03,500
Murray subjected them to harsh
critiques of their ideas
344
00:18:03,540 --> 00:18:06,500
and he was very interested
in seeing how they responded,
345
00:18:06,544 --> 00:18:08,503
how they performed
346
00:18:08,546 --> 00:18:11,296
when there was really
a stressful situation.
347
00:18:11,339 --> 00:18:13,839
Ted was told
he was gonna be debating
348
00:18:13,884 --> 00:18:16,795
political philosophy
with a fellow student.
349
00:18:16,846 --> 00:18:19,215
How tempting that
would have been.
350
00:18:19,265 --> 00:18:21,384
It was not a debate.
351
00:18:21,433 --> 00:18:23,144
It was a full-on aggressive
attack
352
00:18:23,184 --> 00:18:25,265
of Ted as a human being,
as Ted as an intellect.
353
00:18:34,529 --> 00:18:36,490
Forrest: You couldn't do
those experiments today.
354
00:18:36,531 --> 00:18:39,491
But you certainly could
in 1958 to 1962.
355
00:18:41,244 --> 00:18:44,035
There was nothing at the time
of an objection
356
00:18:44,082 --> 00:18:46,332
to what Harry was doing.
357
00:18:46,375 --> 00:18:48,454
It was simply taken
for granted that
358
00:18:48,501 --> 00:18:51,592
that was how you had conducted
research of that kind.
359
00:18:51,631 --> 00:18:53,510
Ted was deceived.
360
00:18:53,548 --> 00:18:55,719
He didn't know that this person
had a script
361
00:18:55,759 --> 00:18:58,259
and the person's objective
362
00:18:58,304 --> 00:19:00,433
was to humiliate
and traumatize him.
363
00:19:14,694 --> 00:19:16,315
Forrest: The goals were not
malicious
364
00:19:16,363 --> 00:19:19,123
or malign in any way.
Why would they be?
365
00:19:19,157 --> 00:19:20,988
Why would this man
who had been working
366
00:19:21,035 --> 00:19:23,575
in psychology for decades
367
00:19:23,621 --> 00:19:25,473
and who had produced some
of the best psychologists
368
00:19:25,498 --> 00:19:27,917
in the United States
at the time,
369
00:19:27,959 --> 00:19:31,709
why would he engage in
malignant interrogation?
370
00:19:31,753 --> 00:19:34,634
Henry Murray was a very high
ranking academic,
371
00:19:34,673 --> 00:19:36,884
very successful career
372
00:19:36,925 --> 00:19:39,506
with well established expertise
in interrogations.
373
00:19:39,552 --> 00:19:41,972
And he was very involved
374
00:19:42,015 --> 00:19:45,224
in developing interrogation
techniques for the OSS,
375
00:19:45,267 --> 00:19:48,146
which is the Office
of Strategic Services.
376
00:19:48,186 --> 00:19:51,146
The Second World War
precursor of the CIA.
377
00:19:55,402 --> 00:19:57,612
So, interrogation,
as we all know,
378
00:19:57,654 --> 00:19:59,525
is questioning somebody
to try and find out,
379
00:19:59,573 --> 00:20:01,202
"Did they commit a crime?"
380
00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:03,080
Enhanced interrogation is
381
00:20:03,118 --> 00:20:05,199
when you add on all these
mind control methods,
382
00:20:05,244 --> 00:20:07,365
drugs, hypnosis,
383
00:20:07,413 --> 00:20:08,673
sensory deprivation,
384
00:20:08,708 --> 00:20:10,327
sensory isolation,
385
00:20:10,375 --> 00:20:12,165
good cop/bad cop techniques.
386
00:20:12,211 --> 00:20:14,631
Whatever you could dream up
387
00:20:14,672 --> 00:20:16,511
to try and get something
out of somebody.
388
00:20:16,548 --> 00:20:18,759
Forrest: Henry Murray
was not an evil scientist.
389
00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:20,851
There are some plausible
arguments to be made
390
00:20:20,886 --> 00:20:23,096
that he had some connections
with the CIA.
391
00:20:23,138 --> 00:20:26,179
But he was very proud of his
service to the country
392
00:20:26,224 --> 00:20:28,805
and took working with the CIA,
393
00:20:28,853 --> 00:20:31,442
if he did, as part of that
responsibility,
394
00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:33,859
he was a responsible citizen.
395
00:20:33,900 --> 00:20:37,200
And the country needed good
assessment of personnel.
396
00:20:37,236 --> 00:20:40,026
So, he could provide that
better than anyone else could.
397
00:20:42,490 --> 00:20:46,080
I was a career operations
officer in the CIA,
398
00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:48,660
who became involved, for a time,
399
00:20:48,705 --> 00:20:51,576
in the interrogation
400
00:20:51,625 --> 00:20:53,414
of one of the top members,
401
00:20:53,460 --> 00:20:55,710
we believed, of Al-Qaeda.
402
00:20:55,755 --> 00:20:58,545
And thereby was involved
403
00:20:58,590 --> 00:21:00,340
for that time,
404
00:21:00,384 --> 00:21:02,144
in the enhanced interrogation
program,
405
00:21:02,178 --> 00:21:04,387
which is torture
406
00:21:04,430 --> 00:21:08,349
and is mind-altering procedures.
407
00:21:08,392 --> 00:21:10,561
My experiences, tragically,
408
00:21:10,603 --> 00:21:12,022
are directly relevant
409
00:21:12,063 --> 00:21:13,623
to the experience Kaczynski
went through
410
00:21:13,646 --> 00:21:16,186
because the methods
used by the CIA
411
00:21:16,233 --> 00:21:18,534
were directly derived from -
412
00:21:18,568 --> 00:21:20,449
not just inspired by -
413
00:21:20,487 --> 00:21:23,527
what Murray was trying to do
in the '50s and early '60s.
414
00:21:23,574 --> 00:21:25,624
And that is that you can break
somebody down
415
00:21:25,659 --> 00:21:27,489
and you can alter their mind.
416
00:21:28,828 --> 00:21:30,538
The theory was,
417
00:21:30,580 --> 00:21:32,433
you will be psychologically
broken down and dislocated
418
00:21:32,458 --> 00:21:34,288
so that you can then be reformed
419
00:21:34,334 --> 00:21:36,173
as a cooperative source.
420
00:21:46,888 --> 00:21:48,469
Forrest: The idea that
Harry Murray
421
00:21:48,515 --> 00:21:51,055
was the villain,
a malignant character,
422
00:21:51,102 --> 00:21:53,561
and that Theodore Kaczynski
was the victim,
423
00:21:53,604 --> 00:21:55,773
all of that is, is nonsense.
424
00:21:55,815 --> 00:21:57,605
It's simply without foundation.
425
00:22:25,135 --> 00:22:26,885
Sasha: Ted was a child
426
00:22:26,929 --> 00:22:29,219
when he was exposed
to these experiments.
427
00:22:29,265 --> 00:22:32,134
He was 16, 17. So it is
absolutely possible
428
00:22:32,184 --> 00:22:34,934
that the study had
a profound impact
429
00:22:34,979 --> 00:22:36,979
on Ted's neurobiological
development.
430
00:22:37,022 --> 00:22:39,942
Thousands of students all
over the United States
431
00:22:39,983 --> 00:22:42,243
performed very ably in these
kinds of experiments
432
00:22:42,278 --> 00:22:44,028
without a problem.
433
00:22:44,070 --> 00:22:46,530
I do not believe
that the testing
434
00:22:46,573 --> 00:22:49,242
at the Harvard Psychological
Clinic did anything at all
435
00:22:49,285 --> 00:22:52,325
to transform Theodore Kaczynski.
436
00:23:04,423 --> 00:23:06,804
Ted had built his entire life
437
00:23:06,844 --> 00:23:09,723
and his entire sense of self
and pride in himself
438
00:23:09,762 --> 00:23:12,022
on his intelligence,
on his intellect,
439
00:23:12,057 --> 00:23:13,097
on his ability to think
440
00:23:13,142 --> 00:23:15,231
and critically reason
and use logic.
441
00:23:15,269 --> 00:23:17,858
And this study,
442
00:23:17,896 --> 00:23:21,227
what it did is it slowly
tore that away from him.
443
00:23:44,422 --> 00:23:46,483
Ted had told his attorneys
and they relayed it to me,
444
00:23:46,508 --> 00:23:48,048
they asked him,
445
00:23:48,094 --> 00:23:50,072
"Ted, why did you put up
with this for three years?
446
00:23:50,096 --> 00:23:52,266
I mean, these people
were just humiliating you,
447
00:23:52,306 --> 00:23:54,385
why did you put up with this?"
448
00:23:54,432 --> 00:23:56,231
And uh,
449
00:23:56,269 --> 00:23:58,308
he-he-he basically said,
450
00:23:58,354 --> 00:24:00,074
well, I wanted to show
that I could take it,
451
00:24:00,105 --> 00:24:01,726
that I couldn't be broken.
452
00:24:03,025 --> 00:24:05,434
And the thought that occurs
to me was,
453
00:24:05,484 --> 00:24:07,565
well, maybe sometimes
it's better to be broken
454
00:24:07,613 --> 00:24:09,202
than to be hardened.
455
00:24:14,869 --> 00:24:17,250
Roy: He was rapidly
withdrawing from...
456
00:24:17,289 --> 00:24:19,630
I mean, he was really becoming
457
00:24:19,665 --> 00:24:21,536
like might be called paranoid
or whatever,
458
00:24:21,585 --> 00:24:24,625
but he was rejecting
other people.
459
00:24:24,671 --> 00:24:27,550
And according to what I heard
it was
460
00:24:29,009 --> 00:24:32,308
following the start of these
psychology experiments.
461
00:24:34,390 --> 00:24:36,099
It's perverse. It's sick.
462
00:24:36,142 --> 00:24:37,642
It doesn't work.
463
00:24:37,683 --> 00:24:39,903
And it's wrong in every
conceivable way.
464
00:24:39,936 --> 00:24:42,557
But that's what Kaczynski
was subjected to.
465
00:24:44,023 --> 00:24:46,943
Those experiments could
have really fueled the fire.
466
00:24:46,986 --> 00:24:50,486
And really made him distrust
the powers that be,
467
00:24:50,529 --> 00:24:53,329
the authorities and be hostile
towards them.
468
00:24:53,366 --> 00:24:55,386
It's not hard to imagine that
when he's being attacked
469
00:24:55,411 --> 00:24:57,500
and discredited and broken down,
470
00:24:57,537 --> 00:24:59,076
he's gonna have to have
471
00:24:59,123 --> 00:25:01,462
some sort of counterattack
psychologically.
472
00:25:01,499 --> 00:25:03,669
So, he's going to have
to become counter-rigid,
473
00:25:03,710 --> 00:25:06,670
counter-certain
and counter-hostile,
474
00:25:06,712 --> 00:25:09,222
and then he just turns that
into behavior in the world.
475
00:25:13,011 --> 00:25:14,811
Linda: We began to think about
476
00:25:14,846 --> 00:25:19,227
how this three-year experiment
in which Ted was involved,
477
00:25:19,268 --> 00:25:22,357
that that might have triggered
his schizophrenia.
478
00:25:22,395 --> 00:25:24,395
I think it would be a mistake
479
00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:26,400
to have this simple
reductionistic formula
480
00:25:26,442 --> 00:25:29,112
and say, oh, you know,
Kaczynski was made into
481
00:25:29,153 --> 00:25:31,913
the Unabomber at Harvard,
that's much too simplistic.
482
00:25:31,946 --> 00:25:35,447
But certainly, those studies
were-were harmful to him.
483
00:25:44,584 --> 00:25:46,634
John: What was revealed,
I think, beyond question,
484
00:25:46,670 --> 00:25:49,839
was that his lawyers were
death penalty liberals,
485
00:25:49,882 --> 00:25:51,471
I guess you would say,
486
00:25:51,509 --> 00:25:53,638
that anything goes
to protect his life.
487
00:25:55,136 --> 00:25:57,307
Newsreader: Kaczynski stopped
the trial
488
00:25:57,347 --> 00:25:59,548
when he demanded to defend
himself earlier this month...
489
00:26:06,731 --> 00:26:10,031
but Judge Burrell says the
request may have been too late.
490
00:26:10,068 --> 00:26:11,949
He called one time,
491
00:26:11,987 --> 00:26:14,487
and I said, "Ted, there's
something you gotta know.
492
00:26:14,531 --> 00:26:17,082
I think you're the last person
who doesn't know this.
493
00:26:17,116 --> 00:26:20,537
It's an insanity defense
and nothing else, straight up."
494
00:26:21,997 --> 00:26:23,497
And I'll never forget
what he said.
495
00:26:23,540 --> 00:26:25,961
He said,
"Why, the lying bastards."
496
00:26:27,377 --> 00:26:30,008
You know,
it was kind of amazing.
497
00:26:30,047 --> 00:26:32,336
If the Unabomber
is schizophrenic,
498
00:26:32,383 --> 00:26:35,052
it kind of undercuts
his whole mission.
499
00:26:35,094 --> 00:26:37,933
People say, "Oh, these are
the deeds of a madman.
500
00:26:37,971 --> 00:26:39,770
You know, you'd have to be crazy
501
00:26:39,806 --> 00:26:41,976
to be so concerned
about technology
502
00:26:42,017 --> 00:26:43,807
that you do what Kaczynski
has done."
503
00:26:46,688 --> 00:26:48,397
Ted wanted to fire
his attorneys;
504
00:26:48,441 --> 00:26:50,780
he didn't want anyone
saying he was mentally ill.
505
00:26:52,736 --> 00:26:55,155
Phillip: The judge said,
506
00:26:55,197 --> 00:26:56,567
"It's too late in the trial.
507
00:26:56,614 --> 00:26:58,953
It would take too many months
for new attorneys
508
00:26:58,991 --> 00:27:01,041
to get up to speed."
509
00:27:01,077 --> 00:27:03,748
He said, "All right.
Then I'll represent myself.
510
00:27:03,788 --> 00:27:06,459
I don't want these attorneys
representing me."
511
00:27:06,500 --> 00:27:08,710
John: And the judge simply
said,
512
00:27:08,751 --> 00:27:10,896
"You-you don't have the right
to just throw all this out
513
00:27:10,921 --> 00:27:12,560
at this stage of the game.
You just don't.
514
00:27:12,589 --> 00:27:15,130
So, I'm ruling against it.
You are stuck with them
515
00:27:15,174 --> 00:27:17,384
and you are stuck
with their defense.
516
00:27:17,428 --> 00:27:19,008
Insanity."
517
00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:22,309
And that night he tried
to kill himself,
518
00:27:22,348 --> 00:27:23,848
he tried to hang himself.
519
00:27:26,269 --> 00:27:28,309
This is not manipulation,
this is not cunning,
520
00:27:28,355 --> 00:27:30,434
this is not an attempt
of someone
521
00:27:30,482 --> 00:27:32,732
to escape legal process,
522
00:27:32,776 --> 00:27:36,105
this is a very heartfelt
reaction on his part.
523
00:27:36,154 --> 00:27:37,565
Phillip: You know,
he felt that
524
00:27:37,615 --> 00:27:39,404
everything he had worked for,
now,
525
00:27:39,450 --> 00:27:42,119
was going to be made out
as mental illness;
526
00:27:42,161 --> 00:27:44,750
that he was not in control.
527
00:27:56,258 --> 00:27:58,298
Newsreader: In California,
528
00:27:58,344 --> 00:28:00,279
the trial of the Unabomber
has come to an abrupt end
529
00:28:00,304 --> 00:28:02,523
just as opening statements
were about to start.
530
00:28:02,556 --> 00:28:05,016
Ted Kaczynski pleaded guilty
to murder
531
00:28:05,057 --> 00:28:08,438
in exchange for life in prison.
532
00:28:09,980 --> 00:28:12,900
Gary: I got a call to say
that I could down
533
00:28:12,941 --> 00:28:15,240
and give the victim's
impact statement.
534
00:28:15,277 --> 00:28:17,856
As I'm reading my statement,
I go through it.
535
00:28:17,903 --> 00:28:20,124
Ted Kaczynski had been sitting
at the desk.
536
00:28:20,156 --> 00:28:22,656
He had a yellow legal pad
takin' lots of notes
537
00:28:22,700 --> 00:28:25,410
and there comes a point in
the statement I say to him,
538
00:28:25,453 --> 00:28:27,413
"You know, Ted,
I don't hate you.
539
00:28:27,455 --> 00:28:30,375
I forgave you and I forgave you
a long time ago."
540
00:28:30,416 --> 00:28:34,207
And in that second, when I told
him that I forgave him,
541
00:28:34,253 --> 00:28:37,134
his pencil dropped
and he just looks at me,
542
00:28:37,173 --> 00:28:40,094
like, I've got these eyes
staring right back at me
543
00:28:40,134 --> 00:28:42,255
and for me, it was the perfect
transference.
544
00:28:42,304 --> 00:28:44,104
It's like, "Nope, you own it.
545
00:28:44,138 --> 00:28:46,388
Now I've transferred it to you.
You carry it.
546
00:28:46,432 --> 00:28:48,143
I've carried it a long time."
547
00:28:49,561 --> 00:28:51,362
I mean, I think it shocked him
548
00:28:51,396 --> 00:28:54,267
because he wasn't expecting
any empathy from anybody.
549
00:28:57,653 --> 00:29:00,073
John: Well, on the day he was
sentenced from the plea deal,
550
00:29:00,113 --> 00:29:03,032
I visited him one last time.
551
00:29:03,075 --> 00:29:05,484
And all of the,
the lawyers were all gone,
552
00:29:05,536 --> 00:29:08,496
the hundreds of the
international media,
553
00:29:08,538 --> 00:29:12,128
two blocks long of stuff,
all gone. All over.
554
00:29:15,961 --> 00:29:18,051
And that was the last I saw him
and uh...
555
00:29:19,173 --> 00:29:20,933
I said,
556
00:29:20,967 --> 00:29:22,547
"So what was that like?
557
00:29:22,595 --> 00:29:24,134
How did that feel?"
558
00:29:24,179 --> 00:29:27,019
And he said, "Well,
it was the damnedest thing.
559
00:29:27,057 --> 00:29:28,767
They brought in all these people
560
00:29:28,807 --> 00:29:30,688
who were weeping and wailing,
561
00:29:30,728 --> 00:29:33,018
but the plea deal
had already been arranged,
562
00:29:33,063 --> 00:29:34,903
already been agreed to.
So, what is the point?"
563
00:29:36,275 --> 00:29:37,934
And I thought to myself,
564
00:29:37,983 --> 00:29:40,403
"Well, you killed
their loved ones.
565
00:29:40,445 --> 00:29:42,195
Might be one reason."
566
00:29:46,117 --> 00:29:48,998
It was a little bit chilling.
567
00:29:49,037 --> 00:29:51,326
Like, you don't know why these
people would want to come
568
00:29:51,373 --> 00:29:54,292
and express their grief or,
you know?
569
00:29:55,794 --> 00:29:58,673
That didn't seem to be
part of it.
570
00:30:24,905 --> 00:30:26,776
Bob: It's an ultra secure
prison.
571
00:30:26,825 --> 00:30:30,035
We have 122 prisons in
the federal prison system
572
00:30:30,077 --> 00:30:32,367
but there's only one Supermax.
573
00:30:35,459 --> 00:30:37,128
If you were going to design
a person,
574
00:30:37,169 --> 00:30:39,459
to do Supermax time
575
00:30:39,505 --> 00:30:41,625
it's Kaczynski,
576
00:30:41,673 --> 00:30:43,223
it's Kaczynski.
577
00:30:43,258 --> 00:30:46,048
He has the ability
to not need others.
578
00:30:47,929 --> 00:30:50,808
During my tenure there,
he was a model inmate.
579
00:32:50,009 --> 00:32:51,638
Bob: He's Ted Kaczynski.
580
00:32:51,677 --> 00:32:53,887
He controls the box.
581
00:32:53,931 --> 00:32:55,810
We control the prison.
582
00:32:55,848 --> 00:32:57,638
He controls the box.
583
00:32:57,683 --> 00:33:00,153
Kevin: Like most political
terrorists,
584
00:33:00,185 --> 00:33:02,516
he wants to have a soapbox,
585
00:33:02,564 --> 00:33:05,443
for his, you know,
for his cause.
586
00:33:05,483 --> 00:33:08,534
He knows that he has a conduit
to the outside world
587
00:33:08,569 --> 00:33:10,660
where he can send his writings.
588
00:33:10,696 --> 00:33:13,906
He-he must spend hours
a day writing.
589
00:33:13,951 --> 00:33:16,451
I-I would say
he's probably satisfied
590
00:33:16,494 --> 00:33:18,744
that he's been able to
communicate with people
591
00:33:18,788 --> 00:33:21,038
and get the ideas out,
get books published.
592
00:33:21,082 --> 00:33:24,092
He can be a voice for what
he wants to get done.
593
00:33:25,921 --> 00:33:27,510
Newsreader: An environmental
group
594
00:33:27,547 --> 00:33:29,547
claimed responsibility
for the blaze
595
00:33:29,590 --> 00:33:32,300
which caused an estimated
$12 million in damage.
596
00:33:32,344 --> 00:33:34,723
The group says it was
protesting an expansion
597
00:33:34,762 --> 00:33:37,222
of the resort that threatened
wildlife.
598
00:33:37,265 --> 00:33:40,555
Tim: I think the Unabomber
to a lot of kids
599
00:33:40,602 --> 00:33:43,271
in the mid 90's and late 90's,
600
00:33:43,313 --> 00:33:45,823
yeah, I think Ted
was an inspiration.
601
00:33:45,857 --> 00:33:48,278
And they were going out into
602
00:33:48,317 --> 00:33:50,897
about 10 to 15 western states,
burnin' shit down.
603
00:34:11,590 --> 00:34:13,391
They were ratcheting things up.
604
00:34:13,425 --> 00:34:15,505
It wasn't just blockades
anymore,
605
00:34:15,554 --> 00:34:17,643
and it just wasn't peaceful
non-violent protests.
606
00:34:21,226 --> 00:34:23,436
Theresa: I think Kaczynski
thinks of himself
607
00:34:23,478 --> 00:34:25,768
as a revolutionary
in the sense that
608
00:34:25,813 --> 00:34:29,153
people feel very powerless
against this, you know...
609
00:34:29,192 --> 00:34:32,072
in anarchist circles, often
it's called the "mega-machine".
610
00:34:32,110 --> 00:34:34,280
Police: Do not resist arrest.
611
00:34:34,322 --> 00:34:37,081
You know, this whole
industrial society.
612
00:34:37,115 --> 00:34:39,615
He was kind of a vanguard
613
00:34:39,661 --> 00:34:41,451
that wanted to demonstrate
614
00:34:43,706 --> 00:34:46,376
that you can fight
back against the system.
615
00:34:46,418 --> 00:34:48,248
Whose streets?
-Our streets!
616
00:34:48,293 --> 00:34:50,134
Whose streets?
-Our streets!
617
00:34:50,170 --> 00:34:51,590
Yeah!
618
00:35:09,065 --> 00:35:11,106
Shit, get out of here!
-Get the fuck out of here!
619
00:35:32,713 --> 00:35:36,014
Glenn: He's the latest in
a long history of people
620
00:35:36,050 --> 00:35:39,681
who have struck out against
society's norms
621
00:35:39,721 --> 00:35:41,641
thinking that they knew
the way to uh...
622
00:35:41,681 --> 00:35:43,221
solve them through violence.
623
00:36:06,873 --> 00:36:08,632
Theresa: It's dangerous
624
00:36:08,666 --> 00:36:11,126
for him to encourage others
625
00:36:11,168 --> 00:36:13,878
to try to follow that model
626
00:36:13,922 --> 00:36:16,882
and talk about, write about,
627
00:36:16,925 --> 00:36:20,715
advise other activists
to take human life.
628
00:36:22,472 --> 00:36:24,431
It's not the way forward.
629
00:36:24,474 --> 00:36:28,063
There has to be a red line
for activists.
630
00:36:29,603 --> 00:36:32,443
I think Kaczynski's way
was not the right way.
631
00:36:32,481 --> 00:36:35,492
I think his writing
was the right way.
632
00:36:37,987 --> 00:36:39,818
Bob: If you put the doctor
name on there
633
00:36:39,864 --> 00:36:41,945
you had it as part of a course
at the college
634
00:36:41,992 --> 00:36:43,621
and you studied it,
635
00:36:45,077 --> 00:36:46,038
we wouldn't be as shocked.
636
00:36:46,079 --> 00:36:48,789
I'd say he's 90% there,
637
00:36:48,831 --> 00:36:50,831
and if you haven't read it,
you're going to say,
638
00:36:50,876 --> 00:36:52,786
"Gosh this warden's -
he drank the water!
639
00:36:52,835 --> 00:36:54,706
Stockholm syndrome
is kicking in!
640
00:36:54,753 --> 00:36:56,173
He's getting too close!
641
00:36:56,213 --> 00:36:58,884
Kaczynski must have hypnotized
him", or whatever.
642
00:36:58,925 --> 00:37:01,085
No, writing is writing.
643
00:37:01,135 --> 00:37:04,556
Academic and criminal activity
should be,
644
00:37:04,597 --> 00:37:06,556
could be separated here.
645
00:37:06,599 --> 00:37:08,349
It's today...
it's today on paper.
646
00:37:08,393 --> 00:37:10,193
Hey, I get it.
647
00:37:11,688 --> 00:37:13,858
If we look at the problems
that have progressed
648
00:37:13,898 --> 00:37:15,898
in the last say 20 years,
649
00:37:15,942 --> 00:37:17,822
since the manifesto came out,
650
00:37:17,860 --> 00:37:20,490
virtually all areas of concern
have gotten worse.
651
00:37:20,530 --> 00:37:22,090
And the root cause of all
these problems
652
00:37:22,114 --> 00:37:24,025
is advanced technology.
653
00:37:24,076 --> 00:37:25,985
All the evidence suggests
that he was right,
654
00:37:26,036 --> 00:37:28,326
that the system is at the root
cause of these problems,
655
00:37:28,371 --> 00:37:29,831
that we cannot control it,
656
00:37:29,873 --> 00:37:32,543
we cannot stop it
and very quickly,
657
00:37:32,583 --> 00:37:34,134
we may even lose the ability
658
00:37:34,168 --> 00:37:36,628
to even undermine the system
659
00:37:36,670 --> 00:37:38,300
and then it will be too late.
660
00:37:40,298 --> 00:37:42,389
I just can't understand
the leap
661
00:37:42,427 --> 00:37:44,347
of having to do it with violence
662
00:37:44,387 --> 00:37:46,387
and killing innocent people.
663
00:37:46,431 --> 00:37:48,141
If you go right to the part
that says,
664
00:37:48,182 --> 00:37:50,733
"I might have to hurt people
to get this word out
665
00:37:50,768 --> 00:37:52,413
because otherwise they might
not print it",
666
00:37:52,436 --> 00:37:54,056
that's bent.
667
00:37:54,106 --> 00:37:56,686
There's victims, there's people
that were harmed.
668
00:37:56,733 --> 00:37:58,483
And what do we want?
669
00:37:58,525 --> 00:38:00,356
If we want him to die,
keep him where he is...
670
00:38:00,402 --> 00:38:01,702
he'll probably die.
671
00:38:03,782 --> 00:38:05,081
Ted's in a box.
672
00:38:06,867 --> 00:38:09,407
Most likely his next box
will be underground.
673
00:38:11,873 --> 00:38:13,373
Newsreader: In Sacramento
today,
674
00:38:13,416 --> 00:38:16,126
a redwood was dedicated
to the memory of Gill Murray,
675
00:38:16,168 --> 00:38:18,088
Kaczynski's last victim.
676
00:38:18,130 --> 00:38:21,170
Prosecutors say that bomb
was so devastating
677
00:38:21,215 --> 00:38:23,675
that Murray's family was left
with nothing to bury
678
00:38:23,717 --> 00:38:25,338
but his feet.
679
00:38:27,097 --> 00:38:30,347
You had a program to try
improve the world.
680
00:38:30,391 --> 00:38:32,021
How much improvement is it
681
00:38:32,059 --> 00:38:33,900
when you're killing people off
doing it?
682
00:38:33,936 --> 00:38:36,516
Every time I reach out
to do something
683
00:38:36,563 --> 00:38:39,153
I'm reminded by the lack
of dexterity in my hand.
684
00:38:39,192 --> 00:38:41,242
I mean, this will be always be
with me.
685
00:38:41,277 --> 00:38:42,898
There is no closure,
686
00:38:42,945 --> 00:38:44,465
my arm doesn't suddenly
come back on Monday
687
00:38:44,489 --> 00:38:45,989
when he's sentenced.
688
00:38:46,032 --> 00:38:48,291
There's no such thing
as closure.
689
00:38:48,326 --> 00:38:51,195
There's different,
there's better,
690
00:38:51,246 --> 00:38:53,496
there's all kinds
of other words,
691
00:38:53,539 --> 00:38:55,329
but there's no closure.
692
00:38:55,373 --> 00:38:57,753
Closure means it's done.
It's never done.
693
00:38:57,793 --> 00:38:59,884
It's not ever gonna be done.
694
00:38:59,920 --> 00:39:02,630
But I don't believe in being
a victim.
695
00:39:02,673 --> 00:39:04,884
I believe in being a survivor,
696
00:39:04,925 --> 00:39:06,925
and making a difference
and fighting.
697
00:39:06,969 --> 00:39:09,429
Little by little,
part of our healing
698
00:39:09,472 --> 00:39:12,681
began to come about through
contacts
699
00:39:12,724 --> 00:39:14,844
with some of the victims.
700
00:39:14,893 --> 00:39:16,903
I think it was Linda's idea,
she says,
701
00:39:16,938 --> 00:39:18,373
you know, we should really
write to those people
702
00:39:18,396 --> 00:39:20,646
and apologize and tell them,
you know,
703
00:39:20,692 --> 00:39:23,532
no matter how much we're trying
to save Ted's life,
704
00:39:23,568 --> 00:39:26,358
it doesn't mean that we devalue
their loved ones life.
705
00:39:26,405 --> 00:39:28,695
He called one evening
706
00:39:28,740 --> 00:39:31,161
and he had to leave a message.
707
00:39:31,202 --> 00:39:33,253
So, it was like, "Ah, well,
I'm David Kaczynski."
708
00:39:33,288 --> 00:39:35,117
So really uncomfortable for him.
709
00:39:35,164 --> 00:39:37,074
But a little while later
710
00:39:37,125 --> 00:39:39,204
when he and I finally connected,
711
00:39:39,251 --> 00:39:41,052
I just said, "Hey, David.
712
00:39:41,086 --> 00:39:42,956
This-this isn't your burden
to carry.
713
00:39:43,005 --> 00:39:44,916
It's going to get better.
714
00:39:44,965 --> 00:39:46,795
But you can't carry this one.
715
00:39:46,842 --> 00:39:48,592
And so, I said,
"if you ever need to talk,
716
00:39:48,635 --> 00:39:51,005
just feel free,
24/7, just call me."
717
00:39:51,056 --> 00:39:53,346
And he's become a dear,
dear friend of ours,
718
00:39:53,391 --> 00:39:55,521
of many years standing.
719
00:39:55,559 --> 00:39:59,519
I think it was kind of ironic
720
00:39:59,563 --> 00:40:01,864
but a lot bigger than me,
721
00:40:01,900 --> 00:40:04,690
that two guys could, you know,
722
00:40:04,735 --> 00:40:06,815
go through crap
723
00:40:06,862 --> 00:40:08,373
and then come together.
724
00:40:10,032 --> 00:40:12,083
And to me, that's what
gives me some hope,
725
00:40:12,117 --> 00:40:14,367
the idea that there is this,
sort of this,
726
00:40:14,411 --> 00:40:16,291
this goodness in people that,
727
00:40:16,331 --> 00:40:18,380
that transcends...
728
00:40:20,043 --> 00:40:22,213
um, the anger,
the violence, the...
729
00:40:22,253 --> 00:40:24,264
You know, the prejudice,
730
00:40:24,297 --> 00:40:26,467
the bad things we see
from time to time.
731
00:40:27,675 --> 00:40:29,545
There is uh,
732
00:40:29,594 --> 00:40:33,313
there is a core of humanity
that's just like...
733
00:40:35,682 --> 00:40:40,233
* Man,
now what has been done *
734
00:40:40,271 --> 00:40:42,021
* Man can't stand himself *
735
00:40:42,065 --> 00:40:45,184
* Or where he's told
that he belong *
736
00:40:46,485 --> 00:40:49,445
* Man don't understand *
737
00:40:49,487 --> 00:40:51,737
* Man blames everyone *
738
00:40:51,782 --> 00:40:55,293
* Everyone under the sun *
739
00:40:55,327 --> 00:40:57,657
* Tell me what has man become *
740
00:41:00,657 --> 00:41:04,657
Preuzeto sa www.titlovi.com
55785
Can't find what you're looking for?
Get subtitles in any language from opensubtitles.com, and translate them here.