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Newsreader: Federal officials say

their most promising lead yet in the Unabomber case

has them searching the home tonight

of a man who lives south

of the small town of Lincoln, Montana.

Holy crap,

there was like 78 agents on the hill,

that you couldn't even see,

until after he was arrested.

These men were like jumping up and down,

they were all happy,

slapping each other on the back,

"We got him! We got him!"

We were watching the evening news and uh...

they said they'd arrested a suspect

in the Unabomber case

and there was a local angle to the story.

Oh my God.

And there is my brother and he's, gosh,

he's looking like a mountain man,

all torn clothes, scraggly hair.

Linda: And we were so mad at the FBI

because they had promised

that our names would not be revealed,

and that they would notify us ahead of time

before the arrest was made.

The FBI has arrested a suspect in Montana

after he was fingered by relatives.

First of all, that word "fingered" bothered me.

Um, doesn't really encapsulate

what we went through in terms of the process

and the-the care and the grief

that went into what we did.

Newsreader: Neighbors here said that since the 1970s,

Kaczynski has been living a solitary life.

A reclusive man some called the "Hermit on the Hill."

It was disbelief.

It was absolute disbelief.

It was so surreal.

I never would have thought

that my neighbor

was sitting in that little cabin

creating bombs

and killing people

while he lived a half a mile away from us.

* Man, now what has been done *

* Man can't stand himself *

* Or where he's told that he belongs *

* Man don't understand *

* Man blames everyone *

* Everyone under the sun *

* Tell me what has Man become *

* Man can't help himself *

* Don't know where he can run *

* Man can't run for help *

* Can't stand anybody else *

* Man don't know where he's from *

* Don't know where he belong *

* Now would Man trade tomorrow *

* For a time long forgotten *

Ted: No. It was simply anger and revenge,

and I was... I was going to strike back.

Try not to get blown up.

* Man don't understand *

* What has man become *

Reporter 1: Sir, are you the Unabomber?

Reporter 2: Are you the Unabomber?

When the Unabomber is arrested and identified,

especially since he went for 17 years

committing these crimes,

wow, it's-it's of course

it's a feeding frenzy for the media.

David: We ended up surrounded,

kind of in a siege, you know.

Newsreader: Ted Kaczynski's brother, David,

who remains secluded in this Schenectady house...

Linda: Some people said there were

a hundred people out there

and some of the children down the block came

and marched and said, go away, go away,

you shouldn't be bothering these people.

That was nice of them.

Uh, they weren't leaving with their cameras

and their notebooks

until we came out and talked to them.

And I would have rather walked into fire

than walked into those cameras at that moment,

it was like the worst possible pain you could be feeling

and then it's all public.

Here's my mother,

and she's got to go through this now.

As soon as we get out the door,

all the lights come on

and people are yelling at mom,

are saying, "Mrs. Kaczynski,

do you think your son's the Unabomber?"

And she answered, she said,

"I don't know, you people know more than I do",

I think is what she said.

Greg: They attempted to interview Ted

immediately after arresting him.

And he refused to be interviewed basically.

Kevin: I get a call saying,

"You gotta go to uh... gotta go to Montana."

You know, at the... at the time,

there were no GPS capabilities,

so we get a paper map,

and we look at the squiggly black lines

leading to this little 500-person nowhere,

which is, you know,

a hellacious drive over some mountains far away.

And we get to the cabin

and the FBI guys are still rousting the place

and uh, tossing it like a... uh...

like a bear in a garbage can.

And they're-they're finding all kinds of clues.

They're finding the typewriter.

They're finding other writings.

They're finding bomb materials. It's a gold mine.

Greg: There was notes about the construction of the bombs,

the selection of the victims,

a rough draft of the manifesto.

Turned out there was a hoodie and a pair

of aviation sunglasses in the cabin.

Joel: There were three of us in there

who were looking at things,

and one of the three pulled out a box

from under Mr. Kaczynski's bed.

It was just a cardboard box,

and inside it was a plastic bag,

and inside the plastic bag was a box

wrapped entirely in aluminum foil.

And in this cabin,

which was extremely smoky,

uh, there was a lot of soot,

it was a dark place.

All of a sudden, was this shiny,

glowing cube,

and at that moment, as in a cartoon,

the light bulb lit over each person's head,

and the person that was holding it,

set it down,

and we backed away very quietly.

And it turned out that was a bomb,

it was completely ready to go,

had the battery in it, everything else.

It seemed apparent

that as soon as the weather cleared Mr. Kaczynski

was going to be headed out

to deliver that into the mail-stream

and on to its victim.

The moment I found that out,

I realized,

thank God we did what we did.

Thank God, we saved a life in the end.

I did what I did with the heaviest heart

I've ever had.

When Ted was arrested

and assigned a provisional attorney,

um, the first thing he asked the attorney was,

"How did they ever find me?"

And the attorney said,

"Well, um, it's being reported

that your brother turned you in."

And again, I heard this third hand

but Ted had said, "No, that's not possible,

David loves me, he'd never do that."

I don't know if it was at that point

or at some point, he told his attorneys

that he would never ever have anything to do

with his family again.

That as far as he was concerned, I was no brother.

Kevin: Then we go for the perp walk.

When Ted gets trotted out to go to the courthouse.

So, deputies bring Ted out

and he's walking...

like a ramrod.

And I'm thinking,

this is the only chance I'm gonna get to talk to this guy.

So, I jump over the berm and I run over to him

while the cops are pulling him off.

So, I'm talking to the guy.

Kevin: Ted, did you do it?

"Did you kill people? Are you really the Unabomber?"

He's looking straight ahead.

And he turns, at one point, and says, "No".

Reporter: Are you responsible for these bombings?

Kevin: But the interesting thing to me, for that,

is he's very much in control.

This, this is who he is.

He's not a guy who explodes, loses it.

He's a tightly controlled guy, and he's very smart.

Newsreader: The accused Unabomber

was brought from his jail cell in Montana

to an airfield in Sacramento, Sunday morning.

He was sporting a bullet proof vest

plus shackles and handcuffs.

My biggest concern was

I didn't want my brother to get the death penalty.

The only possible acceptable ending of this

is for my brother to get a life sentence

rather than a death sentence.

I could not picture what it would be like

for mom and me be,

you know, looking at the clock and you know,

hands of the clock are going to midnight,

and knowing that Ted's being strapped into a gurney

and executed.

That was unthinkable.

Reporter: Are you responsible for these bombings?

Sir, Are you responsible for these bombings?

Guys, let's just let him through.

Take the hold. -Stay back.

Kevin: It's instantly a circus trial.

David, his brother,

is positioning to try

to get him out of the death penalty,

and David doesn't have a whole lot of say,

but he's... he's forceful.

And Ted is insisting that he's not crazy.

Phillip: A person can be found insane

if they have a severe mental defect

which causes them not to know the nature

and quality of their act,

or the wrongfulness of their act.

But in his case,

the evidence that he knew his act was wrong

was extensive.

And so, I think that the defense attorneys

knew that they'd have a very hard time with insanity,

but their goal was to convey to the jury

his degree of mental illness,

so that they would consider not executing him.

I learned that in the opening arguments for the defense,

they planned to show one picture

of Theodore Kaczynski as a professor,

dressed very nicely,

and the other was the picture

when he's scruffy and being taken out,

as being captured.

So how did this successful mathematician turn into

this kind of primitive-looking person?

Newsreader: Meanwhile, the FBI's explored the possibility

of having a Montana National Guard helicopter

hoist Kaczynski's tiny shack

onto a flatbed truck

and then haul it out of the deep woods.

John: Nothing made me think he was some madman.

I wouldn't have been interested in visiting with him

if, if I thought he was some psychotic individual

who had delusions or something like that.

Ted Kaczynski and I started corresponding

soon after his arrest in April '96.

Between the spring of '97

and the beginning of 1998,

I visited him three or four times.

That was quite an experience just for me

and of course, I wasn't- it wasn't my ass on the line.

We were friendly, yeah.

Yeah, it was very comfortable.

I mean, it was very informal.

You know. "How you doin', Ted?"

I guess he just wanted somebody to talk to.

I believe I was the only visitor he had.

But I saw nothing whatsoever,

nothing even slightly to suggest he was crazy.

Newsreader: The finding that Theodore Kaczynski

is competent to stand trial

came after he spent nearly 20 hours

being examined by psychiatrist, Sally Johnson.

And she diagnosed him as competent to stand trial,

competent even to be sentenced to death,

competent to defend himself,

but having schizophrenia.

Sasha: In prepping for the trial,

the defense team was looking for mitigating evidence.

These are any factors that could help the team

try to convince the jury not to put Ted to death.

John: But as things went on,

matters got more and more tense.

Because the main thing that he said over and over

and over again was,

"You can adopt any defense you like,

except insanity defense,

which would make a mockery of my work,

the whole reason that I exist."

I was shocked by the defense team's decision

that when they go to trial,

that they were going to use

the information of him being

three years at Harvard University in an experiment.

So part of what the defense team found

were fragmentary records of a psychological study

that Ted had participated in

during his undergrad days at Harvard.

The study lasted over a period of 3 years

and they met on a weekly basis.

It's never been heard in public.

We have no idea what happened

over the course of the 3-year period.

This audio only gives us a very small glance

into what really happened.

I didn't know about the experiments

Ted was undergoing.

He never talked about them to me.

I don't remember it being a conversation

within our family until long after Ted's arrest.

My brother was subjected to research

that by today's standards

would be considered completely unethical.

Roy: He was one of the people

that I really considered a best friend.

I have just a wonderfully warm feeling about him,

and I think I used the word lovable.

We found common ground

and I remember lots and lots of wonderful discussions

and so I really valued our friendship.

It was sad to see that he,

as a result of some experiments,

withdrew from the friendship.

If I had known how evil - and I'll use that word -

those experiments were,

I certainly would have done something.

Sasha: This experiment basically was an experiment

run by Henry Murray,

At the Harvard psych department.

But when it comes to these interviews with Ted,

the files are sealed.

You can't get access to them.

What we do know for certain

is that Henry Murray was looking into

the effects of stress on human beings,

specifically he was looking at

interrogation strategies and techniques

and how human beings are able to

kind of be resilient

to aggressive interrogative tactics.

It was very unpleasant.

That was the point of the experiment.

He wanted to understand the dark sides of human beings

and the light sides of human beings.

Murray subjected them to harsh critiques of their ideas

and he was very interested in seeing how they responded,

how they performed

when there was really a stressful situation.

Ted was told he was gonna be debating

political philosophy with a fellow student.

How tempting that would have been.

It was not a debate.

It was a full-on aggressive attack

of Ted as a human being, as Ted as an intellect.

Forrest: You couldn't do those experiments today.

But you certainly could in 1958 to 1962.

There was nothing at the time of an objection

to what Harry was doing.

It was simply taken for granted that

that was how you had conducted research of that kind.

Ted was deceived.

He didn't know that this person had a script

and the person's objective

was to humiliate and traumatize him.

Forrest: The goals were not malicious

or malign in any way. Why would they be?

Why would this man who had been working

in psychology for decades

and who had produced some of the best psychologists

in the United States at the time,

why would he engage in malignant interrogation?

Henry Murray was a very high ranking academic,

very successful career

with well established expertise in interrogations.

And he was very involved

in developing interrogation techniques for the OSS,

which is the Office of Strategic Services.

The Second World War precursor of the CIA.

So, interrogation, as we all know,

is questioning somebody to try and find out,

"Did they commit a crime?"

Enhanced interrogation is

when you add on all these mind control methods,

drugs, hypnosis,

sensory deprivation,

sensory isolation,

good cop/bad cop techniques.

Whatever you could dream up

to try and get something out of somebody.

Forrest: Henry Murray was not an evil scientist.

There are some plausible arguments to be made

that he had some connections with the CIA.

But he was very proud of his service to the country

and took working with the CIA,

if he did, as part of that responsibility,

he was a responsible citizen.

And the country needed good assessment of personnel.

So, he could provide that better than anyone else could.

I was a career operations officer in the CIA,

who became involved, for a time,

in the interrogation

of one of the top members,

we believed, of Al-Qaeda.

And thereby was involved

for that time,

in the enhanced interrogation program,

which is torture

and is mind-altering procedures.

My experiences, tragically,

are directly relevant

to the experience Kaczynski went through

because the methods used by the CIA

were directly derived from -

not just inspired by -

what Murray was trying to do in the '50s and early '60s.

And that is that you can break somebody down

and you can alter their mind.

The theory was,

you will be psychologically broken down and dislocated

so that you can then be reformed

as a cooperative source.

Forrest: The idea that Harry Murray

was the villain, a malignant character,

and that Theodore Kaczynski was the victim,

all of that is, is nonsense.

It's simply without foundation.

Sasha: Ted was a child

when he was exposed to these experiments.

He was 16, 17. So it is absolutely possible

that the study had a profound impact

on Ted's neurobiological development.

Thousands of students all over the United States

performed very ably in these kinds of experiments

without a problem.

I do not believe that the testing

at the Harvard Psychological Clinic did anything at all

to transform Theodore Kaczynski.

Ted had built his entire life

and his entire sense of self and pride in himself

on his intelligence, on his intellect,

on his ability to think

and critically reason and use logic.

And this study,

what it did is it slowly tore that away from him.

Ted had told his attorneys and they relayed it to me,

they asked him,

"Ted, why did you put up with this for three years?

I mean, these people were just humiliating you,

why did you put up with this?"

And uh,

he-he-he basically said,

well, I wanted to show that I could take it,

that I couldn't be broken.

And the thought that occurs to me was,

well, maybe sometimes it's better to be broken

than to be hardened.

Roy: He was rapidly withdrawing from...

I mean, he was really becoming

like might be called paranoid or whatever,

but he was rejecting other people.

And according to what I heard it was

following the start of these psychology experiments.

It's perverse. It's sick.

It doesn't work.

And it's wrong in every conceivable way.

But that's what Kaczynski was subjected to.

Those experiments could have really fueled the fire.

And really made him distrust the powers that be,

the authorities and be hostile towards them.

It's not hard to imagine that when he's being attacked

and discredited and broken down,

he's gonna have to have

some sort of counterattack psychologically.

So, he's going to have to become counter-rigid,

counter-certain and counter-hostile,

and then he just turns that into behavior in the world.

Linda: We began to think about

how this three-year experiment in which Ted was involved,

that that might have triggered his schizophrenia.

I think it would be a mistake

to have this simple reductionistic formula

and say, oh, you know, Kaczynski was made into

the Unabomber at Harvard, that's much too simplistic.

But certainly, those studies were-were harmful to him.

John: What was revealed, I think, beyond question,

was that his lawyers were death penalty liberals,

I guess you would say,

that anything goes to protect his life.

Newsreader: Kaczynski stopped the trial

when he demanded to defend himself earlier this month...

but Judge Burrell says the request may have been too late.

He called one time,

and I said, "Ted, there's something you gotta know.

I think you're the last person who doesn't know this.

It's an insanity defense and nothing else, straight up."

And I'll never forget what he said.

He said, "Why, the lying bastards."

You know, it was kind of amazing.

If the Unabomber is schizophrenic,

it kind of undercuts his whole mission.

People say, "Oh, these are the deeds of a madman.

You know, you'd have to be crazy

to be so concerned about technology

that you do what Kaczynski has done."

Ted wanted to fire his attorneys;

he didn't want anyone saying he was mentally ill.

Phillip: The judge said,

"It's too late in the trial.

It would take too many months for new attorneys

to get up to speed."

He said, "All right. Then I'll represent myself.

I don't want these attorneys representing me."

John: And the judge simply said,

"You-you don't have the right to just throw all this out

at this stage of the game. You just don't.

So, I'm ruling against it. You are stuck with them

and you are stuck with their defense.

Insanity."

And that night he tried to kill himself,

he tried to hang himself.

This is not manipulation, this is not cunning,

this is not an attempt of someone

to escape legal process,

this is a very heartfelt reaction on his part.

Phillip: You know, he felt that

everything he had worked for, now,

was going to be made out as mental illness;

that he was not in control.

Newsreader: In California,

the trial of the Unabomber has come to an abrupt end

just as opening statements were about to start.

Ted Kaczynski pleaded guilty to murder

in exchange for life in prison.

Gary: I got a call to say that I could down

and give the victim's impact statement.

As I'm reading my statement, I go through it.

Ted Kaczynski had been sitting at the desk.

He had a yellow legal pad takin' lots of notes

and there comes a point in the statement I say to him,

"You know, Ted, I don't hate you.

I forgave you and I forgave you a long time ago."

And in that second, when I told him that I forgave him,

his pencil dropped and he just looks at me,

like, I've got these eyes staring right back at me

and for me, it was the perfect transference.

It's like, "Nope, you own it.

Now I've transferred it to you. You carry it.

I've carried it a long time."

I mean, I think it shocked him

because he wasn't expecting any empathy from anybody.

John: Well, on the day he was sentenced from the plea deal,

I visited him one last time.

And all of the, the lawyers were all gone,

the hundreds of the international media,

two blocks long of stuff, all gone. All over.

And that was the last I saw him and uh...

I said,

"So what was that like?

How did that feel?"

And he said, "Well, it was the damnedest thing.

They brought in all these people

who were weeping and wailing,

but the plea deal had already been arranged,

already been agreed to. So, what is the point?"

And I thought to myself,

"Well, you killed their loved ones.

Might be one reason."

It was a little bit chilling.

Like, you don't know why these people would want to come

and express their grief or, you know?

That didn't seem to be part of it.

Bob: It's an ultra secure prison.

We have 122 prisons in the federal prison system

but there's only one Supermax.

If you were going to design a person,

to do Supermax time

it's Kaczynski,

it's Kaczynski.

He has the ability to not need others.

During my tenure there, he was a model inmate.

Bob: He's Ted Kaczynski.

He controls the box.

We control the prison.

He controls the box.

Kevin: Like most political terrorists,

he wants to have a soapbox,

for his, you know, for his cause.

He knows that he has a conduit to the outside world

where he can send his writings.

He-he must spend hours a day writing.

I-I would say he's probably satisfied

that he's been able to communicate with people

and get the ideas out, get books published.

He can be a voice for what he wants to get done.

Newsreader: An environmental group

claimed responsibility for the blaze

which caused an estimated $12 million in damage.

The group says it was protesting an expansion

of the resort that threatened wildlife.

Tim: I think the Unabomber to a lot of kids

in the mid 90's and late 90's,

yeah, I think Ted was an inspiration.

And they were going out into

about 10 to 15 western states, burnin' shit down.

They were ratcheting things up.

It wasn't just blockades anymore,

and it just wasn't peaceful non-violent protests.

Theresa: I think Kaczynski thinks of himself

as a revolutionary in the sense that

people feel very powerless against this, you know...

in anarchist circles, often it's called the "mega-machine".

Police: Do not resist arrest.

You know, this whole industrial society.

He was kind of a vanguard

that wanted to demonstrate

that you can fight back against the system.

Whose streets? -Our streets!

Whose streets? -Our streets!

Yeah!

Shit, get out of here! -Get the fuck out of here!

Glenn: He's the latest in a long history of people

who have struck out against society's norms

thinking that they knew the way to uh...

solve them through violence.

Theresa: It's dangerous

for him to encourage others

to try to follow that model

and talk about, write about,

advise other activists to take human life.

It's not the way forward.

There has to be a red line for activists.

I think Kaczynski's way was not the right way.

I think his writing was the right way.

Bob: If you put the doctor name on there

you had it as part of a course at the college

and you studied it,

we wouldn't be as shocked.

I'd say he's 90% there,

and if you haven't read it, you're going to say,

"Gosh this warden's - he drank the water!

Stockholm syndrome is kicking in!

He's getting too close!

Kaczynski must have hypnotized him", or whatever.

No, writing is writing.

Academic and criminal activity should be,

could be separated here.

It's today... it's today on paper.

Hey, I get it.

If we look at the problems that have progressed

in the last say 20 years,

since the manifesto came out,

virtually all areas of concern have gotten worse.

And the root cause of all these problems

is advanced technology.

All the evidence suggests that he was right,

that the system is at the root cause of these problems,

that we cannot control it,

we cannot stop it and very quickly,

we may even lose the ability

to even undermine the system

and then it will be too late.

I just can't understand the leap

of having to do it with violence

and killing innocent people.

If you go right to the part that says,

"I might have to hurt people to get this word out

because otherwise they might not print it",

that's bent.

There's victims, there's people that were harmed.

And what do we want?

If we want him to die, keep him where he is...

he'll probably die.

Ted's in a box.

Most likely his next box will be underground.

Newsreader: In Sacramento today,

a redwood was dedicated to the memory of Gill Murray,

Kaczynski's last victim.

Prosecutors say that bomb was so devastating

that Murray's family was left with nothing to bury

but his feet.

You had a program to try improve the world.

How much improvement is it

when you're killing people off doing it?

Every time I reach out to do something

I'm reminded by the lack of dexterity in my hand.

I mean, this will be always be with me.

There is no closure,

my arm doesn't suddenly come back on Monday

when he's sentenced.

There's no such thing as closure.

There's different, there's better,

there's all kinds of other words,

but there's no closure.

Closure means it's done. It's never done.

It's not ever gonna be done.

But I don't believe in being a victim.

I believe in being a survivor,

and making a difference and fighting.

Little by little, part of our healing

began to come about through contacts

with some of the victims.

I think it was Linda's idea, she says,

you know, we should really write to those people

and apologize and tell them, you know,

no matter how much we're trying to save Ted's life,

it doesn't mean that we devalue their loved ones life.

He called one evening

and he had to leave a message.

So, it was like, "Ah, well, I'm David Kaczynski."

So really uncomfortable for him.

But a little while later

when he and I finally connected,

I just said, "Hey, David.

This-this isn't your burden to carry.

It's going to get better.

But you can't carry this one.

And so, I said, "if you ever need to talk,

just feel free, 24/7, just call me."

And he's become a dear, dear friend of ours,

of many years standing.

I think it was kind of ironic

but a lot bigger than me,

that two guys could, you know,

go through crap

and then come together.

And to me, that's what gives me some hope,

the idea that there is this, sort of this,

this goodness in people that,

that transcends...

um, the anger, the violence, the...

You know, the prejudice,

the bad things we see from time to time.

There is uh,

there is a core of humanity that's just like...

* Man, now what has been done *

* Man can't stand himself *

* Or where he's told that he belong *

* Man don't understand *

* Man blames everyone *

* Everyone under the sun *

* Tell me what has man become *

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