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www.titlovi.com

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Newsreader: Federal
officials say

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their most promising lead yet
in the Unabomber case

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has them searching
the home tonight

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of a man who lives south

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of the small town of Lincoln,
Montana.

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Holy crap,

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there was like 78 agents
on the hill,

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that you couldn't even see,

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until after he was arrested.

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These men were like
jumping up and down,

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they were all happy,

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slapping each other on the back,

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"We got him! We got him!"

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We were watching
the evening news and uh...

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they said they'd arrested
a suspect

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in the Unabomber case

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and there was a local angle
to the story.

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Oh my God.

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And there is my brother
and he's, gosh,

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he's looking
like a mountain man,

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all torn clothes, scraggly hair.

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Linda: And we were so mad
at the FBI

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because they had promised

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that our names would not
be revealed,

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and that they would notify us
ahead of time

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before the arrest was made.

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The FBI has arrested
a suspect in Montana

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after he was fingered
by relatives.

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First of all, that word
"fingered" bothered me.

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Um, doesn't really encapsulate

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what we went through
in terms of the process

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and the-the care and the grief

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that went into what we did.

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Newsreader: Neighbors here said
that since the 1970s,

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Kaczynski has been living
a solitary life.

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A reclusive man some called
the "Hermit on the Hill."

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It was disbelief.

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It was absolute disbelief.

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It was so surreal.

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I never would have thought

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that my neighbor

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was sitting in that little cabin

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creating bombs

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and killing people

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while he lived a half
a mile away from us.

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* Man,
now what has been done *

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* Man can't stand himself *

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* Or where he's told
that he belongs *

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* Man don't understand *

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* Man blames everyone *

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* Everyone under the sun *

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* Tell me what has Man become *

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* Man can't help himself *

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* Don't know where he can run *

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* Man can't run for help *

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* Can't stand anybody else *

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* Man don't know
where he's from *

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* Don't know where he belong *

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* Now would Man trade tomorrow *

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* For a time long forgotten *

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Ted: No. It was
simply anger and revenge,

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and I was... I was going
to strike back.

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Try not to get blown up.

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* Man don't understand *

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* What has man become *

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Reporter 1: Sir, are you
the Unabomber?

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Reporter 2: Are you
the Unabomber?

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When the Unabomber is
arrested and identified,

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especially since he went
for 17 years

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committing these crimes,

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wow, it's-it's of course

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it's a feeding frenzy
for the media.

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David: We ended up surrounded,

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kind of in a siege, you know.

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Newsreader: Ted Kaczynski's
brother, David,

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who remains secluded in
this Schenectady house...

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Linda: Some people said
there were

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a hundred people out there

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and some of the children
down the block came

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and marched and said,
go away, go away,

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you shouldn't be bothering
these people.

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That was nice of them.

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Uh, they weren't leaving
with their cameras

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and their notebooks

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until we came out
and talked to them.

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And I would have rather walked
into fire

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than walked into those cameras
at that moment,

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it was like the worst possible
pain you could be feeling

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and then it's all public.

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Here's my mother,

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and she's got to go
through this now.

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As soon as we get out the door,

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all the lights come on

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and people are yelling at mom,

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are saying,
"Mrs. Kaczynski,

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do you think your son's
the Unabomber?"

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And she answered, she said,

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"I don't know, you people
know more than I do",

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I think is what she said.

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Greg: They attempted
to interview Ted

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immediately after arresting him.

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And he refused to be
interviewed basically.

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Kevin: I get a call saying,

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"You gotta go to uh...
gotta go to Montana."

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You know, at the...
at the time,

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there were no GPS capabilities,

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so we get a paper map,

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and we look at the squiggly
black lines

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leading to this little
500-person nowhere,

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which is, you know,

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a hellacious drive over
some mountains far away.

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And we get to the cabin

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and the FBI guys are still
rousting the place

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and uh, tossing it like a...
uh...

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like a bear in a garbage can.

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And they're-they're finding
all kinds of clues.

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They're finding the typewriter.

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They're finding other writings.

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They're finding bomb materials.
It's a gold mine.

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Greg: There was notes about
the construction of the bombs,

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the selection of the victims,

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a rough draft of the manifesto.

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Turned out there was
a hoodie and a pair

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of aviation sunglasses
in the cabin.

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Joel: There were three of us
in there

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who were looking at things,

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and one of the three
pulled out a box

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from under Mr. Kaczynski's bed.

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It was just a cardboard box,

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and inside it was a plastic bag,

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and inside the plastic bag
was a box

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wrapped entirely in aluminum
foil.

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And in this cabin,

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which was extremely smoky,

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uh, there was a lot of soot,

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it was a dark place.

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All of a sudden, was this shiny,

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glowing cube,

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and at that moment,
as in a cartoon,

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the light bulb lit over each
person's head,

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and the person
that was holding it,

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set it down,

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and we backed away very quietly.

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And it turned out
that was a bomb,

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it was completely ready to go,

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had the battery in it,
everything else.

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It seemed apparent

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that as soon as the weather
cleared Mr. Kaczynski

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was going to be headed out

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to deliver that into
the mail-stream

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and on to its victim.

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The moment I found that out,

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I realized,

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thank God we did what we did.

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Thank God, we saved a life
in the end.

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I did what I did
with the heaviest heart

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I've ever had.

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When Ted was arrested

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and assigned a provisional
attorney,

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um, the first thing he asked
the attorney was,

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"How did they ever find me?"

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And the attorney said,

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"Well, um, it's being reported

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that your brother
turned you in."

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And again,
I heard this third hand

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but Ted had said,
"No, that's not possible,

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David loves me,
he'd never do that."

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I don't know if it was
at that point

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or at some point,
he told his attorneys

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that he would never ever
have anything to do

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with his family again.

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That as far as he was
concerned, I was no brother.

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Kevin: Then we go
for the perp walk.

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When Ted gets trotted out
to go to the courthouse.

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So, deputies bring Ted out

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and he's walking...

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like a ramrod.

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And I'm thinking,

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this is the only chance I'm
gonna get to talk to this guy.

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So, I jump over the berm
and I run over to him

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while the cops
are pulling him off.

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So, I'm talking to the guy.

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Kevin: Ted, did you do it?

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"Did you kill people?
Are you really the Unabomber?"

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He's looking straight ahead.

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And he turns, at one point,
and says, "No".

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Reporter: Are you responsible
for these bombings?

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Kevin: But the interesting
thing to me, for that,

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is he's very much in control.

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This, this is who he is.

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He's not a guy who explodes,
loses it.

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He's a tightly controlled guy,
and he's very smart.

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Newsreader: The accused
Unabomber

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was brought from his jail cell
in Montana

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to an airfield in Sacramento,
Sunday morning.

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He was sporting a bullet
proof vest

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plus shackles and handcuffs.

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My biggest concern was

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I didn't want my brother
to get the death penalty.

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The only possible acceptable
ending of this

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is for my brother
to get a life sentence

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rather than a death sentence.

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I could not picture
what it would be like

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for mom and me be,

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you know, looking at the clock
and you know,

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hands of the clock
are going to midnight,

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and knowing that Ted's being
strapped into a gurney

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and executed.

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That was unthinkable.

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Reporter: Are you responsible
for these bombings?

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Sir, Are you responsible
for these bombings?

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Guys, let's just
let him through.

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Take the hold.
-Stay back.

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Kevin: It's instantly
a circus trial.

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David, his brother,

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is positioning to try

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to get him out of the death
penalty,

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and David doesn't have
a whole lot of say,

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but he's... he's forceful.

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And Ted is insisting
that he's not crazy.

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Phillip: A person can be found
insane

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if they have a severe mental
defect

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which causes them not
to know the nature

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and quality of their act,

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or the wrongfulness
of their act.

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But in his case,

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the evidence that he knew
his act was wrong

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was extensive.

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And so, I think that
the defense attorneys

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knew that they'd have a very
hard time with insanity,

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but their goal was to convey
to the jury

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his degree of mental illness,

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so that they would consider
not executing him.

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I learned that in the opening
arguments for the defense,

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they planned to show one picture

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of Theodore Kaczynski
as a professor,

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dressed very nicely,

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and the other was the picture

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when he's scruffy
and being taken out,

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as being captured.

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So how did this successful
mathematician turn into

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this kind of primitive-looking
person?

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Newsreader: Meanwhile, the
FBI's explored the possibility

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of having a Montana National
Guard helicopter

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hoist Kaczynski's tiny shack

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onto a flatbed truck

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and then haul it out
of the deep woods.

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John: Nothing made me think
he was some madman.

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I wouldn't have been interested
in visiting with him

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if, if I thought he was some
psychotic individual

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who had delusions
or something like that.

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Ted Kaczynski and I
started corresponding

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soon after his arrest
in April '96.

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Between the spring of '97

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and the beginning of 1998,

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I visited him three
or four times.

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That was quite an experience
just for me

259
00:12:51,812 --> 00:12:54,942
and of course, I wasn't-
it wasn't my ass on the line.

260
00:12:57,317 --> 00:12:58,238
We were friendly, yeah.

261
00:12:58,278 --> 00:12:59,462
Yeah, it was very comfortable.

262
00:12:59,486 --> 00:13:01,486
I mean, it was very informal.

263
00:13:01,530 --> 00:13:03,370
You know. "How you doin', Ted?"

264
00:13:03,408 --> 00:13:05,778
I guess he just wanted somebody
to talk to.

265
00:13:05,826 --> 00:13:07,995
I believe I was the only
visitor he had.

266
00:13:08,037 --> 00:13:10,116
But I saw nothing whatsoever,

267
00:13:10,163 --> 00:13:12,833
nothing even slightly
to suggest he was crazy.

268
00:13:14,251 --> 00:13:16,131
Newsreader: The finding
that Theodore Kaczynski

269
00:13:16,169 --> 00:13:17,799
is competent to stand trial

270
00:13:17,837 --> 00:13:19,587
came after he spent nearly
20 hours

271
00:13:19,633 --> 00:13:22,393
being examined by psychiatrist,
Sally Johnson.

272
00:13:22,427 --> 00:13:26,346
And she diagnosed him as
competent to stand trial,

273
00:13:26,389 --> 00:13:28,639
competent even to be sentenced
to death,

274
00:13:28,682 --> 00:13:30,562
competent to defend himself,

275
00:13:30,601 --> 00:13:32,902
but having schizophrenia.

276
00:13:34,522 --> 00:13:36,152
Sasha: In prepping
for the trial,

277
00:13:36,190 --> 00:13:38,168
the defense team was looking
for mitigating evidence.

278
00:13:38,192 --> 00:13:40,701
These are any factors
that could help the team

279
00:13:40,736 --> 00:13:43,986
try to convince the jury
not to put Ted to death.

280
00:14:07,429 --> 00:14:09,389
John: But as things went on,

281
00:14:09,432 --> 00:14:11,142
matters got more and more tense.

282
00:14:11,183 --> 00:14:14,274
Because the main thing
that he said over and over

283
00:14:14,312 --> 00:14:16,062
and over again was,

284
00:14:16,105 --> 00:14:17,764
"You can adopt any defense
you like,

285
00:14:17,816 --> 00:14:19,395
except insanity defense,

286
00:14:20,610 --> 00:14:22,990
which would make a mockery
of my work,

287
00:14:23,028 --> 00:14:25,778
the whole reason that I exist."

288
00:14:27,533 --> 00:14:31,083
I was shocked by the defense
team's decision

289
00:14:32,455 --> 00:14:34,365
that when they go to trial,

290
00:14:35,542 --> 00:14:37,591
that they were going to use

291
00:14:37,626 --> 00:14:40,086
the information of him being

292
00:14:40,129 --> 00:14:42,629
three years at Harvard
University in an experiment.

293
00:14:43,923 --> 00:14:45,594
So part of what the defense
team found

294
00:14:45,634 --> 00:14:48,424
were fragmentary records
of a psychological study

295
00:14:48,471 --> 00:14:51,100
that Ted had participated in

296
00:14:51,139 --> 00:14:52,769
during his undergrad days
at Harvard.

297
00:14:52,808 --> 00:14:55,399
The study lasted over
a period of 3 years

298
00:14:55,436 --> 00:14:57,056
and they met on a weekly basis.

299
00:14:58,355 --> 00:14:59,765
It's never been heard in public.

300
00:15:04,571 --> 00:15:06,280
We have no idea what happened

301
00:15:06,322 --> 00:15:08,621
over the course
of the 3-year period.

302
00:15:08,658 --> 00:15:11,158
This audio only gives us
a very small glance

303
00:15:11,201 --> 00:15:12,951
into what really happened.

304
00:15:29,345 --> 00:15:31,345
I didn't know
about the experiments

305
00:15:31,389 --> 00:15:33,139
Ted was undergoing.

306
00:15:33,182 --> 00:15:34,932
He never talked
about them to me.

307
00:15:34,975 --> 00:15:37,014
I don't remember it being
a conversation

308
00:15:37,061 --> 00:15:41,110
within our family until
long after Ted's arrest.

309
00:15:41,148 --> 00:15:43,937
My brother was subjected
to research

310
00:15:43,984 --> 00:15:46,033
that by today's standards

311
00:15:46,070 --> 00:15:48,279
would be considered
completely unethical.

312
00:16:02,001 --> 00:16:04,052
Roy: He was one of the people

313
00:16:04,087 --> 00:16:06,217
that I really considered
a best friend.

314
00:16:07,759 --> 00:16:11,889
I have just a wonderfully warm
feeling about him,

315
00:16:11,929 --> 00:16:14,269
and I think I used
the word lovable.

316
00:16:15,515 --> 00:16:17,975
We found common ground

317
00:16:18,018 --> 00:16:21,057
and I remember lots and lots
of wonderful discussions

318
00:16:21,105 --> 00:16:23,264
and so I really valued
our friendship.

319
00:16:24,484 --> 00:16:26,283
It was sad to see that he,

320
00:16:27,486 --> 00:16:29,777
as a result of some experiments,

321
00:16:29,822 --> 00:16:32,202
withdrew from the friendship.

322
00:16:33,618 --> 00:16:37,327
If I had known how evil -
and I'll use that word -

323
00:16:37,370 --> 00:16:39,540
those experiments were,

324
00:16:39,581 --> 00:16:41,081
I certainly would
have done something.

325
00:16:56,682 --> 00:16:58,451
Sasha: This experiment
basically was an experiment

326
00:16:58,475 --> 00:17:00,385
run by Henry Murray,

327
00:17:00,436 --> 00:17:02,145
At the Harvard psych department.

328
00:17:02,187 --> 00:17:04,817
But when it comes to these
interviews with Ted,

329
00:17:04,857 --> 00:17:06,817
the files are sealed.

330
00:17:06,859 --> 00:17:08,240
You can't get access to them.

331
00:17:23,459 --> 00:17:25,749
What we do know for certain

332
00:17:25,795 --> 00:17:27,914
is that Henry Murray
was looking into

333
00:17:27,963 --> 00:17:30,423
the effects of stress
on human beings,

334
00:17:30,465 --> 00:17:32,256
specifically he was looking at

335
00:17:32,300 --> 00:17:34,681
interrogation strategies
and techniques

336
00:17:34,721 --> 00:17:36,681
and how human beings are able to

337
00:17:36,722 --> 00:17:38,603
kind of be resilient

338
00:17:38,641 --> 00:17:40,480
to aggressive interrogative
tactics.

339
00:17:40,518 --> 00:17:42,268
It was very unpleasant.

340
00:17:42,310 --> 00:17:44,191
That was the point
of the experiment.

341
00:17:44,230 --> 00:17:46,940
He wanted to understand
the dark sides of human beings

342
00:17:46,982 --> 00:17:48,992
and the light sides
of human beings.

343
00:17:59,369 --> 00:18:03,500
Murray subjected them to harsh
critiques of their ideas

344
00:18:03,540 --> 00:18:06,500
and he was very interested
in seeing how they responded,

345
00:18:06,544 --> 00:18:08,503
how they performed

346
00:18:08,546 --> 00:18:11,296
when there was really
a stressful situation.

347
00:18:11,339 --> 00:18:13,839
Ted was told
he was gonna be debating

348
00:18:13,884 --> 00:18:16,795
political philosophy
with a fellow student.

349
00:18:16,846 --> 00:18:19,215
How tempting that
would have been.

350
00:18:19,265 --> 00:18:21,384
It was not a debate.

351
00:18:21,433 --> 00:18:23,144
It was a full-on aggressive
attack

352
00:18:23,184 --> 00:18:25,265
of Ted as a human being,
as Ted as an intellect.

353
00:18:34,529 --> 00:18:36,490
Forrest: You couldn't do
those experiments today.

354
00:18:36,531 --> 00:18:39,491
But you certainly could
in 1958 to 1962.

355
00:18:41,244 --> 00:18:44,035
There was nothing at the time
of an objection

356
00:18:44,082 --> 00:18:46,332
to what Harry was doing.

357
00:18:46,375 --> 00:18:48,454
It was simply taken
for granted that

358
00:18:48,501 --> 00:18:51,592
that was how you had conducted
research of that kind.

359
00:18:51,631 --> 00:18:53,510
Ted was deceived.

360
00:18:53,548 --> 00:18:55,719
He didn't know that this person
had a script

361
00:18:55,759 --> 00:18:58,259
and the person's objective

362
00:18:58,304 --> 00:19:00,433
was to humiliate
and traumatize him.

363
00:19:14,694 --> 00:19:16,315
Forrest: The goals were not
malicious

364
00:19:16,363 --> 00:19:19,123
or malign in any way.
Why would they be?

365
00:19:19,157 --> 00:19:20,988
Why would this man
who had been working

366
00:19:21,035 --> 00:19:23,575
in psychology for decades

367
00:19:23,621 --> 00:19:25,473
and who had produced some
of the best psychologists

368
00:19:25,498 --> 00:19:27,917
in the United States
at the time,

369
00:19:27,959 --> 00:19:31,709
why would he engage in
malignant interrogation?

370
00:19:31,753 --> 00:19:34,634
Henry Murray was a very high
ranking academic,

371
00:19:34,673 --> 00:19:36,884
very successful career

372
00:19:36,925 --> 00:19:39,506
with well established expertise
in interrogations.

373
00:19:39,552 --> 00:19:41,972
And he was very involved

374
00:19:42,015 --> 00:19:45,224
in developing interrogation
techniques for the OSS,

375
00:19:45,267 --> 00:19:48,146
which is the Office
of Strategic Services.

376
00:19:48,186 --> 00:19:51,146
The Second World War
precursor of the CIA.

377
00:19:55,402 --> 00:19:57,612
So, interrogation,
as we all know,

378
00:19:57,654 --> 00:19:59,525
is questioning somebody
to try and find out,

379
00:19:59,573 --> 00:20:01,202
"Did they commit a crime?"

380
00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:03,080
Enhanced interrogation is

381
00:20:03,118 --> 00:20:05,199
when you add on all these
mind control methods,

382
00:20:05,244 --> 00:20:07,365
drugs, hypnosis,

383
00:20:07,413 --> 00:20:08,673
sensory deprivation,

384
00:20:08,708 --> 00:20:10,327
sensory isolation,

385
00:20:10,375 --> 00:20:12,165
good cop/bad cop techniques.

386
00:20:12,211 --> 00:20:14,631
Whatever you could dream up

387
00:20:14,672 --> 00:20:16,511
to try and get something
out of somebody.

388
00:20:16,548 --> 00:20:18,759
Forrest: Henry Murray
was not an evil scientist.

389
00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:20,851
There are some plausible
arguments to be made

390
00:20:20,886 --> 00:20:23,096
that he had some connections
with the CIA.

391
00:20:23,138 --> 00:20:26,179
But he was very proud of his
service to the country

392
00:20:26,224 --> 00:20:28,805
and took working with the CIA,

393
00:20:28,853 --> 00:20:31,442
if he did, as part of that
responsibility,

394
00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:33,859
he was a responsible citizen.

395
00:20:33,900 --> 00:20:37,200
And the country needed good
assessment of personnel.

396
00:20:37,236 --> 00:20:40,026
So, he could provide that
better than anyone else could.

397
00:20:42,490 --> 00:20:46,080
I was a career operations
officer in the CIA,

398
00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:48,660
who became involved, for a time,

399
00:20:48,705 --> 00:20:51,576
in the interrogation

400
00:20:51,625 --> 00:20:53,414
of one of the top members,

401
00:20:53,460 --> 00:20:55,710
we believed, of Al-Qaeda.

402
00:20:55,755 --> 00:20:58,545
And thereby was involved

403
00:20:58,590 --> 00:21:00,340
for that time,

404
00:21:00,384 --> 00:21:02,144
in the enhanced interrogation
program,

405
00:21:02,178 --> 00:21:04,387
which is torture

406
00:21:04,430 --> 00:21:08,349
and is mind-altering procedures.

407
00:21:08,392 --> 00:21:10,561
My experiences, tragically,

408
00:21:10,603 --> 00:21:12,022
are directly relevant

409
00:21:12,063 --> 00:21:13,623
to the experience Kaczynski
went through

410
00:21:13,646 --> 00:21:16,186
because the methods
used by the CIA

411
00:21:16,233 --> 00:21:18,534
were directly derived from -

412
00:21:18,568 --> 00:21:20,449
not just inspired by -

413
00:21:20,487 --> 00:21:23,527
what Murray was trying to do
in the '50s and early '60s.

414
00:21:23,574 --> 00:21:25,624
And that is that you can break
somebody down

415
00:21:25,659 --> 00:21:27,489
and you can alter their mind.

416
00:21:28,828 --> 00:21:30,538
The theory was,

417
00:21:30,580 --> 00:21:32,433
you will be psychologically
broken down and dislocated

418
00:21:32,458 --> 00:21:34,288
so that you can then be reformed

419
00:21:34,334 --> 00:21:36,173
as a cooperative source.

420
00:21:46,888 --> 00:21:48,469
Forrest: The idea that
Harry Murray

421
00:21:48,515 --> 00:21:51,055
was the villain,
a malignant character,

422
00:21:51,102 --> 00:21:53,561
and that Theodore Kaczynski
was the victim,

423
00:21:53,604 --> 00:21:55,773
all of that is, is nonsense.

424
00:21:55,815 --> 00:21:57,605
It's simply without foundation.

425
00:22:25,135 --> 00:22:26,885
Sasha: Ted was a child

426
00:22:26,929 --> 00:22:29,219
when he was exposed
to these experiments.

427
00:22:29,265 --> 00:22:32,134
He was 16, 17. So it is
absolutely possible

428
00:22:32,184 --> 00:22:34,934
that the study had
a profound impact

429
00:22:34,979 --> 00:22:36,979
on Ted's neurobiological
development.

430
00:22:37,022 --> 00:22:39,942
Thousands of students all
over the United States

431
00:22:39,983 --> 00:22:42,243
performed very ably in these
kinds of experiments

432
00:22:42,278 --> 00:22:44,028
without a problem.

433
00:22:44,070 --> 00:22:46,530
I do not believe
that the testing

434
00:22:46,573 --> 00:22:49,242
at the Harvard Psychological
Clinic did anything at all

435
00:22:49,285 --> 00:22:52,325
to transform Theodore Kaczynski.

436
00:23:04,423 --> 00:23:06,804
Ted had built his entire life

437
00:23:06,844 --> 00:23:09,723
and his entire sense of self
and pride in himself

438
00:23:09,762 --> 00:23:12,022
on his intelligence,
on his intellect,

439
00:23:12,057 --> 00:23:13,097
on his ability to think

440
00:23:13,142 --> 00:23:15,231
and critically reason
and use logic.

441
00:23:15,269 --> 00:23:17,858
And this study,

442
00:23:17,896 --> 00:23:21,227
what it did is it slowly
tore that away from him.

443
00:23:44,422 --> 00:23:46,483
Ted had told his attorneys
and they relayed it to me,

444
00:23:46,508 --> 00:23:48,048
they asked him,

445
00:23:48,094 --> 00:23:50,072
"Ted, why did you put up
with this for three years?

446
00:23:50,096 --> 00:23:52,266
I mean, these people
were just humiliating you,

447
00:23:52,306 --> 00:23:54,385
why did you put up with this?"

448
00:23:54,432 --> 00:23:56,231
And uh,

449
00:23:56,269 --> 00:23:58,308
he-he-he basically said,

450
00:23:58,354 --> 00:24:00,074
well, I wanted to show
that I could take it,

451
00:24:00,105 --> 00:24:01,726
that I couldn't be broken.

452
00:24:03,025 --> 00:24:05,434
And the thought that occurs
to me was,

453
00:24:05,484 --> 00:24:07,565
well, maybe sometimes
it's better to be broken

454
00:24:07,613 --> 00:24:09,202
than to be hardened.

455
00:24:14,869 --> 00:24:17,250
Roy: He was rapidly
withdrawing from...

456
00:24:17,289 --> 00:24:19,630
I mean, he was really becoming

457
00:24:19,665 --> 00:24:21,536
like might be called paranoid
or whatever,

458
00:24:21,585 --> 00:24:24,625
but he was rejecting
other people.

459
00:24:24,671 --> 00:24:27,550
And according to what I heard
it was

460
00:24:29,009 --> 00:24:32,308
following the start of these
psychology experiments.

461
00:24:34,390 --> 00:24:36,099
It's perverse. It's sick.

462
00:24:36,142 --> 00:24:37,642
It doesn't work.

463
00:24:37,683 --> 00:24:39,903
And it's wrong in every
conceivable way.

464
00:24:39,936 --> 00:24:42,557
But that's what Kaczynski
was subjected to.

465
00:24:44,023 --> 00:24:46,943
Those experiments could
have really fueled the fire.

466
00:24:46,986 --> 00:24:50,486
And really made him distrust
the powers that be,

467
00:24:50,529 --> 00:24:53,329
the authorities and be hostile
towards them.

468
00:24:53,366 --> 00:24:55,386
It's not hard to imagine that
when he's being attacked

469
00:24:55,411 --> 00:24:57,500
and discredited and broken down,

470
00:24:57,537 --> 00:24:59,076
he's gonna have to have

471
00:24:59,123 --> 00:25:01,462
some sort of counterattack
psychologically.

472
00:25:01,499 --> 00:25:03,669
So, he's going to have
to become counter-rigid,

473
00:25:03,710 --> 00:25:06,670
counter-certain
and counter-hostile,

474
00:25:06,712 --> 00:25:09,222
and then he just turns that
into behavior in the world.

475
00:25:13,011 --> 00:25:14,811
Linda: We began to think about

476
00:25:14,846 --> 00:25:19,227
how this three-year experiment
in which Ted was involved,

477
00:25:19,268 --> 00:25:22,357
that that might have triggered
his schizophrenia.

478
00:25:22,395 --> 00:25:24,395
I think it would be a mistake

479
00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:26,400
to have this simple
reductionistic formula

480
00:25:26,442 --> 00:25:29,112
and say, oh, you know,
Kaczynski was made into

481
00:25:29,153 --> 00:25:31,913
the Unabomber at Harvard,
that's much too simplistic.

482
00:25:31,946 --> 00:25:35,447
But certainly, those studies
were-were harmful to him.

483
00:25:44,584 --> 00:25:46,634
John: What was revealed,
I think, beyond question,

484
00:25:46,670 --> 00:25:49,839
was that his lawyers were
death penalty liberals,

485
00:25:49,882 --> 00:25:51,471
I guess you would say,

486
00:25:51,509 --> 00:25:53,638
that anything goes
to protect his life.

487
00:25:55,136 --> 00:25:57,307
Newsreader: Kaczynski stopped
the trial

488
00:25:57,347 --> 00:25:59,548
when he demanded to defend
himself earlier this month...

489
00:26:06,731 --> 00:26:10,031
but Judge Burrell says the
request may have been too late.

490
00:26:10,068 --> 00:26:11,949
He called one time,

491
00:26:11,987 --> 00:26:14,487
and I said, "Ted, there's
something you gotta know.

492
00:26:14,531 --> 00:26:17,082
I think you're the last person
who doesn't know this.

493
00:26:17,116 --> 00:26:20,537
It's an insanity defense
and nothing else, straight up."

494
00:26:21,997 --> 00:26:23,497
And I'll never forget
what he said.

495
00:26:23,540 --> 00:26:25,961
He said,
"Why, the lying bastards."

496
00:26:27,377 --> 00:26:30,008
You know,
it was kind of amazing.

497
00:26:30,047 --> 00:26:32,336
If the Unabomber
is schizophrenic,

498
00:26:32,383 --> 00:26:35,052
it kind of undercuts
his whole mission.

499
00:26:35,094 --> 00:26:37,933
People say, "Oh, these are
the deeds of a madman.

500
00:26:37,971 --> 00:26:39,770
You know, you'd have to be crazy

501
00:26:39,806 --> 00:26:41,976
to be so concerned
about technology

502
00:26:42,017 --> 00:26:43,807
that you do what Kaczynski
has done."

503
00:26:46,688 --> 00:26:48,397
Ted wanted to fire
his attorneys;

504
00:26:48,441 --> 00:26:50,780
he didn't want anyone
saying he was mentally ill.

505
00:26:52,736 --> 00:26:55,155
Phillip: The judge said,

506
00:26:55,197 --> 00:26:56,567
"It's too late in the trial.

507
00:26:56,614 --> 00:26:58,953
It would take too many months
for new attorneys

508
00:26:58,991 --> 00:27:01,041
to get up to speed."

509
00:27:01,077 --> 00:27:03,748
He said, "All right.
Then I'll represent myself.

510
00:27:03,788 --> 00:27:06,459
I don't want these attorneys
representing me."

511
00:27:06,500 --> 00:27:08,710
John: And the judge simply
said,

512
00:27:08,751 --> 00:27:10,896
"You-you don't have the right
to just throw all this out

513
00:27:10,921 --> 00:27:12,560
at this stage of the game.
You just don't.

514
00:27:12,589 --> 00:27:15,130
So, I'm ruling against it.
You are stuck with them

515
00:27:15,174 --> 00:27:17,384
and you are stuck
with their defense.

516
00:27:17,428 --> 00:27:19,008
Insanity."

517
00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:22,309
And that night he tried
to kill himself,

518
00:27:22,348 --> 00:27:23,848
he tried to hang himself.

519
00:27:26,269 --> 00:27:28,309
This is not manipulation,
this is not cunning,

520
00:27:28,355 --> 00:27:30,434
this is not an attempt
of someone

521
00:27:30,482 --> 00:27:32,732
to escape legal process,

522
00:27:32,776 --> 00:27:36,105
this is a very heartfelt
reaction on his part.

523
00:27:36,154 --> 00:27:37,565
Phillip: You know,
he felt that

524
00:27:37,615 --> 00:27:39,404
everything he had worked for,
now,

525
00:27:39,450 --> 00:27:42,119
was going to be made out
as mental illness;

526
00:27:42,161 --> 00:27:44,750
that he was not in control.

527
00:27:56,258 --> 00:27:58,298
Newsreader: In California,

528
00:27:58,344 --> 00:28:00,279
the trial of the Unabomber
has come to an abrupt end

529
00:28:00,304 --> 00:28:02,523
just as opening statements
were about to start.

530
00:28:02,556 --> 00:28:05,016
Ted Kaczynski pleaded guilty
to murder

531
00:28:05,057 --> 00:28:08,438
in exchange for life in prison.

532
00:28:09,980 --> 00:28:12,900
Gary: I got a call to say
that I could down

533
00:28:12,941 --> 00:28:15,240
and give the victim's
impact statement.

534
00:28:15,277 --> 00:28:17,856
As I'm reading my statement,
I go through it.

535
00:28:17,903 --> 00:28:20,124
Ted Kaczynski had been sitting
at the desk.

536
00:28:20,156 --> 00:28:22,656
He had a yellow legal pad
takin' lots of notes

537
00:28:22,700 --> 00:28:25,410
and there comes a point in
the statement I say to him,

538
00:28:25,453 --> 00:28:27,413
"You know, Ted,
I don't hate you.

539
00:28:27,455 --> 00:28:30,375
I forgave you and I forgave you
a long time ago."

540
00:28:30,416 --> 00:28:34,207
And in that second, when I told
him that I forgave him,

541
00:28:34,253 --> 00:28:37,134
his pencil dropped
and he just looks at me,

542
00:28:37,173 --> 00:28:40,094
like, I've got these eyes
staring right back at me

543
00:28:40,134 --> 00:28:42,255
and for me, it was the perfect
transference.

544
00:28:42,304 --> 00:28:44,104
It's like, "Nope, you own it.

545
00:28:44,138 --> 00:28:46,388
Now I've transferred it to you.
You carry it.

546
00:28:46,432 --> 00:28:48,143
I've carried it a long time."

547
00:28:49,561 --> 00:28:51,362
I mean, I think it shocked him

548
00:28:51,396 --> 00:28:54,267
because he wasn't expecting
any empathy from anybody.

549
00:28:57,653 --> 00:29:00,073
John: Well, on the day he was
sentenced from the plea deal,

550
00:29:00,113 --> 00:29:03,032
I visited him one last time.

551
00:29:03,075 --> 00:29:05,484
And all of the,
the lawyers were all gone,

552
00:29:05,536 --> 00:29:08,496
the hundreds of the
international media,

553
00:29:08,538 --> 00:29:12,128
two blocks long of stuff,
all gone. All over.

554
00:29:15,961 --> 00:29:18,051
And that was the last I saw him
and uh...

555
00:29:19,173 --> 00:29:20,933
I said,

556
00:29:20,967 --> 00:29:22,547
"So what was that like?

557
00:29:22,595 --> 00:29:24,134
How did that feel?"

558
00:29:24,179 --> 00:29:27,019
And he said, "Well,
it was the damnedest thing.

559
00:29:27,057 --> 00:29:28,767
They brought in all these people

560
00:29:28,807 --> 00:29:30,688
who were weeping and wailing,

561
00:29:30,728 --> 00:29:33,018
but the plea deal
had already been arranged,

562
00:29:33,063 --> 00:29:34,903
already been agreed to.
So, what is the point?"

563
00:29:36,275 --> 00:29:37,934
And I thought to myself,

564
00:29:37,983 --> 00:29:40,403
"Well, you killed
their loved ones.

565
00:29:40,445 --> 00:29:42,195
Might be one reason."

566
00:29:46,117 --> 00:29:48,998
It was a little bit chilling.

567
00:29:49,037 --> 00:29:51,326
Like, you don't know why these
people would want to come

568
00:29:51,373 --> 00:29:54,292
and express their grief or,
you know?

569
00:29:55,794 --> 00:29:58,673
That didn't seem to be
part of it.

570
00:30:24,905 --> 00:30:26,776
Bob: It's an ultra secure
prison.

571
00:30:26,825 --> 00:30:30,035
We have 122 prisons in
the federal prison system

572
00:30:30,077 --> 00:30:32,367
but there's only one Supermax.

573
00:30:35,459 --> 00:30:37,128
If you were going to design
a person,

574
00:30:37,169 --> 00:30:39,459
to do Supermax time

575
00:30:39,505 --> 00:30:41,625
it's Kaczynski,

576
00:30:41,673 --> 00:30:43,223
it's Kaczynski.

577
00:30:43,258 --> 00:30:46,048
He has the ability
to not need others.

578
00:30:47,929 --> 00:30:50,808
During my tenure there,
he was a model inmate.

579
00:32:50,009 --> 00:32:51,638
Bob: He's Ted Kaczynski.

580
00:32:51,677 --> 00:32:53,887
He controls the box.

581
00:32:53,931 --> 00:32:55,810
We control the prison.

582
00:32:55,848 --> 00:32:57,638
He controls the box.

583
00:32:57,683 --> 00:33:00,153
Kevin: Like most political
terrorists,

584
00:33:00,185 --> 00:33:02,516
he wants to have a soapbox,

585
00:33:02,564 --> 00:33:05,443
for his, you know,
for his cause.

586
00:33:05,483 --> 00:33:08,534
He knows that he has a conduit
to the outside world

587
00:33:08,569 --> 00:33:10,660
where he can send his writings.

588
00:33:10,696 --> 00:33:13,906
He-he must spend hours
a day writing.

589
00:33:13,951 --> 00:33:16,451
I-I would say
he's probably satisfied

590
00:33:16,494 --> 00:33:18,744
that he's been able to
communicate with people

591
00:33:18,788 --> 00:33:21,038
and get the ideas out,
get books published.

592
00:33:21,082 --> 00:33:24,092
He can be a voice for what
he wants to get done.

593
00:33:25,921 --> 00:33:27,510
Newsreader: An environmental
group

594
00:33:27,547 --> 00:33:29,547
claimed responsibility
for the blaze

595
00:33:29,590 --> 00:33:32,300
which caused an estimated
$12 million in damage.

596
00:33:32,344 --> 00:33:34,723
The group says it was
protesting an expansion

597
00:33:34,762 --> 00:33:37,222
of the resort that threatened
wildlife.

598
00:33:37,265 --> 00:33:40,555
Tim: I think the Unabomber
to a lot of kids

599
00:33:40,602 --> 00:33:43,271
in the mid 90's and late 90's,

600
00:33:43,313 --> 00:33:45,823
yeah, I think Ted
was an inspiration.

601
00:33:45,857 --> 00:33:48,278
And they were going out into

602
00:33:48,317 --> 00:33:50,897
about 10 to 15 western states,
burnin' shit down.

603
00:34:11,590 --> 00:34:13,391
They were ratcheting things up.

604
00:34:13,425 --> 00:34:15,505
It wasn't just blockades
anymore,

605
00:34:15,554 --> 00:34:17,643
and it just wasn't peaceful
non-violent protests.

606
00:34:21,226 --> 00:34:23,436
Theresa: I think Kaczynski
thinks of himself

607
00:34:23,478 --> 00:34:25,768
as a revolutionary
in the sense that

608
00:34:25,813 --> 00:34:29,153
people feel very powerless
against this, you know...

609
00:34:29,192 --> 00:34:32,072
in anarchist circles, often
it's called the "mega-machine".

610
00:34:32,110 --> 00:34:34,280
Police: Do not resist arrest.

611
00:34:34,322 --> 00:34:37,081
You know, this whole
industrial society.

612
00:34:37,115 --> 00:34:39,615
He was kind of a vanguard

613
00:34:39,661 --> 00:34:41,451
that wanted to demonstrate

614
00:34:43,706 --> 00:34:46,376
that you can fight
back against the system.

615
00:34:46,418 --> 00:34:48,248
Whose streets?
-Our streets!

616
00:34:48,293 --> 00:34:50,134
Whose streets?
-Our streets!

617
00:34:50,170 --> 00:34:51,590
Yeah!

618
00:35:09,065 --> 00:35:11,106
Shit, get out of here!
-Get the fuck out of here!

619
00:35:32,713 --> 00:35:36,014
Glenn: He's the latest in
a long history of people

620
00:35:36,050 --> 00:35:39,681
who have struck out against
society's norms

621
00:35:39,721 --> 00:35:41,641
thinking that they knew
the way to uh...

622
00:35:41,681 --> 00:35:43,221
solve them through violence.

623
00:36:06,873 --> 00:36:08,632
Theresa: It's dangerous

624
00:36:08,666 --> 00:36:11,126
for him to encourage others

625
00:36:11,168 --> 00:36:13,878
to try to follow that model

626
00:36:13,922 --> 00:36:16,882
and talk about, write about,

627
00:36:16,925 --> 00:36:20,715
advise other activists
to take human life.

628
00:36:22,472 --> 00:36:24,431
It's not the way forward.

629
00:36:24,474 --> 00:36:28,063
There has to be a red line
for activists.

630
00:36:29,603 --> 00:36:32,443
I think Kaczynski's way
was not the right way.

631
00:36:32,481 --> 00:36:35,492
I think his writing
was the right way.

632
00:36:37,987 --> 00:36:39,818
Bob: If you put the doctor
name on there

633
00:36:39,864 --> 00:36:41,945
you had it as part of a course
at the college

634
00:36:41,992 --> 00:36:43,621
and you studied it,

635
00:36:45,077 --> 00:36:46,038
we wouldn't be as shocked.

636
00:36:46,079 --> 00:36:48,789
I'd say he's 90% there,

637
00:36:48,831 --> 00:36:50,831
and if you haven't read it,
you're going to say,

638
00:36:50,876 --> 00:36:52,786
"Gosh this warden's -
he drank the water!

639
00:36:52,835 --> 00:36:54,706
Stockholm syndrome
is kicking in!

640
00:36:54,753 --> 00:36:56,173
He's getting too close!

641
00:36:56,213 --> 00:36:58,884
Kaczynski must have hypnotized
him", or whatever.

642
00:36:58,925 --> 00:37:01,085
No, writing is writing.

643
00:37:01,135 --> 00:37:04,556
Academic and criminal activity
should be,

644
00:37:04,597 --> 00:37:06,556
could be separated here.

645
00:37:06,599 --> 00:37:08,349
It's today...
it's today on paper.

646
00:37:08,393 --> 00:37:10,193
Hey, I get it.

647
00:37:11,688 --> 00:37:13,858
If we look at the problems
that have progressed

648
00:37:13,898 --> 00:37:15,898
in the last say 20 years,

649
00:37:15,942 --> 00:37:17,822
since the manifesto came out,

650
00:37:17,860 --> 00:37:20,490
virtually all areas of concern
have gotten worse.

651
00:37:20,530 --> 00:37:22,090
And the root cause of all
these problems

652
00:37:22,114 --> 00:37:24,025
is advanced technology.

653
00:37:24,076 --> 00:37:25,985
All the evidence suggests
that he was right,

654
00:37:26,036 --> 00:37:28,326
that the system is at the root
cause of these problems,

655
00:37:28,371 --> 00:37:29,831
that we cannot control it,

656
00:37:29,873 --> 00:37:32,543
we cannot stop it
and very quickly,

657
00:37:32,583 --> 00:37:34,134
we may even lose the ability

658
00:37:34,168 --> 00:37:36,628
to even undermine the system

659
00:37:36,670 --> 00:37:38,300
and then it will be too late.

660
00:37:40,298 --> 00:37:42,389
I just can't understand
the leap

661
00:37:42,427 --> 00:37:44,347
of having to do it with violence

662
00:37:44,387 --> 00:37:46,387
and killing innocent people.

663
00:37:46,431 --> 00:37:48,141
If you go right to the part
that says,

664
00:37:48,182 --> 00:37:50,733
"I might have to hurt people
to get this word out

665
00:37:50,768 --> 00:37:52,413
because otherwise they might
not print it",

666
00:37:52,436 --> 00:37:54,056
that's bent.

667
00:37:54,106 --> 00:37:56,686
There's victims, there's people
that were harmed.

668
00:37:56,733 --> 00:37:58,483
And what do we want?

669
00:37:58,525 --> 00:38:00,356
If we want him to die,
keep him where he is...

670
00:38:00,402 --> 00:38:01,702
he'll probably die.

671
00:38:03,782 --> 00:38:05,081
Ted's in a box.

672
00:38:06,867 --> 00:38:09,407
Most likely his next box
will be underground.

673
00:38:11,873 --> 00:38:13,373
Newsreader: In Sacramento
today,

674
00:38:13,416 --> 00:38:16,126
a redwood was dedicated
to the memory of Gill Murray,

675
00:38:16,168 --> 00:38:18,088
Kaczynski's last victim.

676
00:38:18,130 --> 00:38:21,170
Prosecutors say that bomb
was so devastating

677
00:38:21,215 --> 00:38:23,675
that Murray's family was left
with nothing to bury

678
00:38:23,717 --> 00:38:25,338
but his feet.

679
00:38:27,097 --> 00:38:30,347
You had a program to try
improve the world.

680
00:38:30,391 --> 00:38:32,021
How much improvement is it

681
00:38:32,059 --> 00:38:33,900
when you're killing people off
doing it?

682
00:38:33,936 --> 00:38:36,516
Every time I reach out
to do something

683
00:38:36,563 --> 00:38:39,153
I'm reminded by the lack
of dexterity in my hand.

684
00:38:39,192 --> 00:38:41,242
I mean, this will be always be
with me.

685
00:38:41,277 --> 00:38:42,898
There is no closure,

686
00:38:42,945 --> 00:38:44,465
my arm doesn't suddenly
come back on Monday

687
00:38:44,489 --> 00:38:45,989
when he's sentenced.

688
00:38:46,032 --> 00:38:48,291
There's no such thing
as closure.

689
00:38:48,326 --> 00:38:51,195
There's different,
there's better,

690
00:38:51,246 --> 00:38:53,496
there's all kinds
of other words,

691
00:38:53,539 --> 00:38:55,329
but there's no closure.

692
00:38:55,373 --> 00:38:57,753
Closure means it's done.
It's never done.

693
00:38:57,793 --> 00:38:59,884
It's not ever gonna be done.

694
00:38:59,920 --> 00:39:02,630
But I don't believe in being
a victim.

695
00:39:02,673 --> 00:39:04,884
I believe in being a survivor,

696
00:39:04,925 --> 00:39:06,925
and making a difference
and fighting.

697
00:39:06,969 --> 00:39:09,429
Little by little,
part of our healing

698
00:39:09,472 --> 00:39:12,681
began to come about through
contacts

699
00:39:12,724 --> 00:39:14,844
with some of the victims.

700
00:39:14,893 --> 00:39:16,903
I think it was Linda's idea,
she says,

701
00:39:16,938 --> 00:39:18,373
you know, we should really
write to those people

702
00:39:18,396 --> 00:39:20,646
and apologize and tell them,
you know,

703
00:39:20,692 --> 00:39:23,532
no matter how much we're trying
to save Ted's life,

704
00:39:23,568 --> 00:39:26,358
it doesn't mean that we devalue
their loved ones life.

705
00:39:26,405 --> 00:39:28,695
He called one evening

706
00:39:28,740 --> 00:39:31,161
and he had to leave a message.

707
00:39:31,202 --> 00:39:33,253
So, it was like, "Ah, well,
I'm David Kaczynski."

708
00:39:33,288 --> 00:39:35,117
So really uncomfortable for him.

709
00:39:35,164 --> 00:39:37,074
But a little while later

710
00:39:37,125 --> 00:39:39,204
when he and I finally connected,

711
00:39:39,251 --> 00:39:41,052
I just said, "Hey, David.

712
00:39:41,086 --> 00:39:42,956
This-this isn't your burden
to carry.

713
00:39:43,005 --> 00:39:44,916
It's going to get better.

714
00:39:44,965 --> 00:39:46,795
But you can't carry this one.

715
00:39:46,842 --> 00:39:48,592
And so, I said,
"if you ever need to talk,

716
00:39:48,635 --> 00:39:51,005
just feel free,
24/7, just call me."

717
00:39:51,056 --> 00:39:53,346
And he's become a dear,
dear friend of ours,

718
00:39:53,391 --> 00:39:55,521
of many years standing.

719
00:39:55,559 --> 00:39:59,519
I think it was kind of ironic

720
00:39:59,563 --> 00:40:01,864
but a lot bigger than me,

721
00:40:01,900 --> 00:40:04,690
that two guys could, you know,

722
00:40:04,735 --> 00:40:06,815
go through crap

723
00:40:06,862 --> 00:40:08,373
and then come together.

724
00:40:10,032 --> 00:40:12,083
And to me, that's what
gives me some hope,

725
00:40:12,117 --> 00:40:14,367
the idea that there is this,
sort of this,

726
00:40:14,411 --> 00:40:16,291
this goodness in people that,

727
00:40:16,331 --> 00:40:18,380
that transcends...

728
00:40:20,043 --> 00:40:22,213
um, the anger,
the violence, the...

729
00:40:22,253 --> 00:40:24,264
You know, the prejudice,

730
00:40:24,297 --> 00:40:26,467
the bad things we see
from time to time.

731
00:40:27,675 --> 00:40:29,545
There is uh,

732
00:40:29,594 --> 00:40:33,313
there is a core of humanity
that's just like...

733
00:40:35,682 --> 00:40:40,233
* Man,
now what has been done *

734
00:40:40,271 --> 00:40:42,021
* Man can't stand himself *

735
00:40:42,065 --> 00:40:45,184
* Or where he's told
that he belong *

736
00:40:46,485 --> 00:40:49,445
* Man don't understand *

737
00:40:49,487 --> 00:40:51,737
* Man blames everyone *

738
00:40:51,782 --> 00:40:55,293
* Everyone under the sun *

739
00:40:55,327 --> 00:40:57,657
* Tell me what has man become *

740
00:41:00,657 --> 00:41:04,657
Taken from www.titlovi.com