Original subtitles

It was approximately 20 feet wide,

it was about 14 feet high.

And then I came across this strange craft

blocking the road.

Eventually, I went up the road

and observed the same cold steel blue light

sweeping away in a low arc towards Tullibardine.

And one of the reasons that

they've actually gone public at times is in the hope that

by telling their story, they'll have a greater chance of

getting to the bottom of it.

The press reports say it's a flying saucer.

The Army Air Forces has announced that

a flying disc has been found

and is now in the possession of the Army.

Frauds, eh?

It's kinda hard not to find a fraud in this field,

eh, Philip?

You want a drink?

Tea or coffee?

Oh, just a tea.

If you have an orange pekoe, it'd be great. No milk.

Just straight. Thank you.

"Alien Autopsy!"

Yes!

That's definitely not real, right?

Definitely not.

Two TV producers,

Gary Shoefield and Ray Santilli,

commissioned a magician by the name of Spyros Melaris

to create a film of an alien autopsy.

The movie company confirmed the name for me.

She says, "John Humphreys is making the dummies for us."

And he made the original ones for Ray Santilli.

That's the original cast he made for Santilli.

We will be meeting the magician

who tricked the world with his film of an alien autopsy.

It even had the experts fooled.

Oh! These are our guys, right?

Yes!

Those are the pointy-eared fellas?

I heard that the film is

a recreation of a real alien autopsy.

No, it's not.

It's not? It's a load of bullocks?

Yeah!

Yeah.

Yeah.

Love it!

Wow! What a collection you got here.

Oh, yeah!

Like I say, it keeps on growing.

"Without Consent," eh?

That was the first book I ever did.

Got the title from the dictionary, basically.

We looked up the word abduction and it said, you know,

"Taken without consent."

That's a revised edition

they put out a couple of years,

but I've just brought it up to date.

Love the art.

I even have a rock from the alleged crash site at Roswell.

Get!

That I brought myself.

You went to Roswell?

Went to Roswell in 2007.

You pillaged that, eh?

We filmed out in the desert

and I lectured at the convention, the museum.

I've got it here, Darcy.

Ah, thank you.

There you go.

Quite the service. Thank you!

You're welcome.

Precious metals or diamonds out of the United States.

I have three lumps of this rock in my suitcase,

stuck in my shoes.

Who told you that this was real?

It was the chap I was there with here.

You know, he claimed it was allegedly the crash site.

But there are several. We know that.

Yeah. Yeah.

Alleged crash sites.

Yeah!

He said, "Well, if you look at this rock",

"it's burned on one side," which it is.

Yeah! There's gotta be some burning there.

And then it's covered with this material.

I mean, the whole rock face where we were

in this old dried up river bed was covered,

it's almost like you got buckets of paint

and splashed it on.

Obviously it wasn't paint,

so these were literally lying in what was a dry river bend,

these rocks.

So I thought, "Right! What better souvenir?"

Free!

And, yeah, I thought, "I don't know what I'm gonna say"

"if Customs stop me."

It's just a rock.

It's nice.

All right! I better set up.

My background in ufology goes way back to 1980.

You know, as a young fellow,

I always had an interest in all things paranormal,

space program, you know, that kind of thing.

Okay?

And not so much UFOs,

but I read a little bit about the subject.

And in the winter of 1978 into 1979,

I was working in West Germany.

Couldn't speak a word of the language,

so I couldn't sit down on a night

and watch the TV or anything like that.

So I rung my mum, said, "You send me some books, Mother?"

So she did.

And a parcel of books arrived, and they were all UFO books.

She'd got them on a local market, I think.

So I would sit there on an evening with, you know,

with a cold beer or a coffee.

And so when I came back in 1979,

I had a bit more of an interest in the subject.

Thanks to your mum.

Thanks to my mum, God rest her.

I'd like to ask you: What is your interest in this?

I've been a UFO researcher for 18 years now,

and I became interested in the so-called Roswell event.

And where I used to live

was just outside of the city of Leeds in West Yorkshire.

And Leeds then, as of now, publishes an evening newspaper.

It's called the "Yorkshire Evening Post."

Yorkshire, because that's the county, you know,

within West Yorkshire.

And my aunt, who lived around the corner,

brought a copy round one night.

She said, "Have you seen this?"

And there was a little advertisement

for the formation of the Yorkshire UFO Society

coming that Sunday in Leeds.

So I got the bus on that Sunday.

I didn't drive at this point.

And in those days, in the UK,

everything used to shut on a Sunday.

I mean, there was nothing open.

But I found this venue, it was called Centenary House.

It was a big building.

And, you know, in one of the rooms

I could hear noises of people chatting.

So I thought, "This must be it."

There was about 20 or 30 people there.

It'd been set up by two brothers, Graham and Mark Birdsall.

They'd obviously been involved for a few years already.

And they put on a presentation and that was it,

I was hooked, Darcy.

You know, that was me.

I was happy to see another table full of books

that I could buy.

I paid my yearly membership,

which I think was about two pounds, you know?

$3 maybe for the whole year.

And we were just fortunate. I wanted to know more.

And just by look,

the society itself was getting a lot of reports

from areas around the county.

Yorkshire is split up into four:

North, South, East, and West.

Primarily in the Yorkshire Dales,

which is in North Yorkshire.

So I jumped in with both feet, you know?

And became a UFO investigator.

Wow!

And I was up and running, you know?

And like I said.

What year was that?

This was 1980.

And like I said, we were just fortunate that

a lot of sightings were being reported to us.

We made ourselves as visible as possible,

you know, in local media.

We used to hand out flyers, we'd write letters, you know?

We were very, very proactive.

And it just went from there, you know?

And I continued on.

I was always wanting to know more.

I managed to get a sighting of the phenomenon myself,

twice in the 1980s.

One in the Yorkshire Dales, just some big lights.

And then literally coming home from work one evening,

coming home from work at 10 o'clock in the evening,

where I used to live with my parents over the city of Leeds.

I didn't need any, you know,

confirmation that the subject was real,

the phenomena was real, but.

You didn't need to see it?

No! That emphasized it for me.

Later in the, around about 1987-ish,

'88, I joined a national organization called

the British UFO Research Association.

And I went on to work with them on a variety of things.

I became their press officer.

I was their conference organizer throughout the 1990s.

And eventually I became, you know,

Director of Investigations.

So most, if not all of the investigations

came through me one way or another.

And we had a network of volunteers around the UK.

I had to take a break in 1999,

'cause I took ill.

But after that, when I got back on my feet,

I was still actively involved.

I just wasn't a member of any UFO groups anymore.

I just, I got to know a lot of people by this time

and I just continued and continued.

Came to 2015 and I'd been a magazine editor.

I'd done all kinds of stuff, you know?

I lectured all over the world.

And a friend of mine, in Poland actually,

this chap called Peter,

he sent me a manuscript that he'd written,

a book manuscript, not for publication.

He said, "Can you read it for me, Philip?

And let me know what my writing's like.

I'm trying to improve my English writing."

His speech was great, so already.

And I thought, "This will make a great book." You know?

And I gave him feedback on his English.

And a friend of mine called John Hanson,

former police detective,

he was already running his own publishing company

he called Haunted Skies,

and he encouraged me to do the same thing.

And also explained to me how I could do it.

How you could become a writer?

Not a writer, I'd already written a number of books,

but be a publisher.

So you weren't dependent on the conventional publishers,

you know?

Right. Right.

I mean, my first book I co-authored in 1994,

but I have a file full of rejection letters from publishers,

you know?

So I set up Flying Disc Press

and the first book I published was Peter's manuscript,

"UFOs over Poland," and made a lot of mistakes

'cause I jumped in with both feet, you know?

I didn't really know exactly what I was doing.

It was a quick learning curve.

That's how you learn though.

Yeah! So in 2016, I was now working for a bank.

I had the opportunity to take early retirement,

so I took it and I put all my efforts into writing,

researching, and publishing.

What are the hallmarks of, you know,

a classic abduction case, would you say?

You mentioned Budd Hopkins earlier.

I have his book, "Missing Time."

I think Budd puts together

usually four or five common things

that happen to abductees, like missing time.

Like, I don't know where to begin

or what to ask you first,

so I'm just gonna give the floor to you.

Do aliens exist and do they come to Britain?

Good question.

The first abduction account came to light in 1961,

Betty and Barney Hill,

they observed a strange light approach the car.

When they eventually arrived home,

there were several hours missing.

What Bullard did,

he obtained all the documented abduction cases he caught,

whether it'd been written in books, magazines,

and he went not through the experience itself,

but the parameters that make these experiences.

Take out the detail, you know?

But what are the building blocks of these experiences?

And one little thing, of course,

is that he called Doorway Amnesia.

So a lot of these cases, by no means all of them,

but a lot of them, they say,

"Ah, yeah, I was taken towards the UFO

and then I'm on onboard it."

They don't have any recollection of how they got there.

Doorway Amnesia?

So he called it Doorway Amnesia, that was his name for it.

And he came up like Budd,

but slightly extended from Budd,

a list of parameters

that are an indication of a genuine encounter.

And that was based on the, you know,

the published literature, not interviews with people.

Although they may have been interviewed, you know,

by whoever published it.

Yeah!

And what he said was,

"These are pretty standard wherever you go in the world."

So these people are all having the same experience.

They just perceive it differently, you know?

Things are reported differently in South America

as they are in North America.

But if you take out the details, look at the parameters,

the building blocks,

they remain the same.

Each case doesn't have them all,

but each case will have some of them, you know?

Not all of them have missing time, but that is part of it.

Right!

Like Charlie and Calvin.

They didn't have missing time.

Didn't have missing time,

nor did they have Doorway Amnesia.

That's probably why they were so frantic

and scared compared to some other abductees

that have reported their experiences.

Yeah!

It's happened to me, it's happened to my sister,

and I believe my mother.

I remember yelling at these things and saying,

"Stop this! I hate what you're doing to me."

I don't know what they want.

I don't know.

I don't know.

Then this tall dark being just appeared

in front of the craft,

and he was followed by about another seven

or eight that appeared straight behind him.

See the dot in that X-ray?

Stan claims it was an implant doctors found

after a so-called abduction.

My son looked me straight in the eyes and he says,

"They took blood outta you, Mama."

So you asked me about, you know, my involvement.

I got involved in abduction research

back in the early '90s.

Again, quite by chance!

Colleagues and I set up a UFO hotline.

Basically, it was an answer machine at my house, you know?

That's all it was.

And you just listened to voice messages?

Yeah!

But we made this telephone number available

all over the place.

The first call on it was from a local lady

nearby where I lived,

just a couple, literally couple of miles away.

She left a name and number and I phoned her up.

She was talking about a UFO sighting she'd had a few,

you know, when she was 16.

And I said,

"Well, I might as well go along and interview her

'cause she only lives up the road."

So I went, we made an appointment, a colleague and I,

and, yeah, she told us about this sighting she'd had

when she was 16.

She was now in her early 30s.

Then she went on to say, "But when I moved,"

you know, and got married and had a child,

she had this abduction experience,

and she described it in very great detail.

Single mother?

No, she had a partner, you know?

And not only did she have that encounter,

she'd had ongoing encounters.

After that?

Yeah!

And, you know, I recorded all the conversations with her.

In fact, I actually exchanged information

with the late Budd Hopkins

and Budd gave me some questions to ask of the lady.

So that's how I got involved.

You know, quite by chance.

During my time of being involved in ufology,

I'd worked with the media on many occasions

and a chap I worked with on one of the national newspapers

had finished working for them and set up his own company.

It was a public relations company.

And he said, "Philip, I've been working for a TV company

and they're interested in doing

a documentary on abductions."

So I said, "Great!" You know?

And we worked out an outline.

We had a budget and everything.

And then the project got canceled.

So I said, "Isn't that a shame?"

I said, "We've done a lot of work."

I said, "You know?"

Again, an off-the-cuff remark,

I said, "This would make a great book!"

So my colleague, he was called Carl, Carl Nagaitis,

said, "Well, one of my other clients,

he's actually a publisher."

So I said, "I'll tell you what, Carl.

Ask him if he's interested, and if he is,

we'll write the book together."

And he said, "Yes, we've got a contract."

And I literally set off going around the UK.

There's no internet in those days.

This is, you know, 1992, '93,

interviewing as many people as I could.

I had some historical files as well,

and obviously taking their photograph.

And I would send it to Carl, you know,

'cause I would transcribe the interviews.

Carl being a professional journalist,

just made sense for him to write it.

And our first book called "Without Consent,"

came out in 1994.

And then just a couple of years ago,

I did a revised edition and brought it all up to date.

So I had a good working knowledge of abductions.

Through my wall, came some beings around my bed.

And I ran between them

and ran out of the room into my mother's room.

They were no different to me.

I just saw them as my star family, like, you know,

and my parents here were my Earth family.

They came in.

I don't know where they came from.

I thought I was gonna die.

My life flashed before my eyes.

I mean, it's totally made me question what life's about,

and it's stirred my life up a lot.

What's your thoughts on abductions

or cases that are real

red flags in your opinion?

Like, what should we watch out for?

Not get conned?

As a either a new person to this subject

or somebody that's been around for a while,

you're just concerned about the truth.

Yeah, it's difficult. It's difficult.

If you think,

"Well, what can stop me getting taken in and conned?"

You know, I was involved in the biggest con in ufology,

and that was the "Alien Autopsy" film,

where the owners of it raked in millions.

And I was involved in that.

I eventually, well,

I was contacted by the distributor of it,

the promoter of it,

Ray Santilli, back in 1993,

played part in its release and its research.

Took me a lot of years, Darcy,

but I got to the bottom of it in the end

and found out who's who, who did what, you know?

Where it was filmed, where it was made,

where they got the props from, and so on.

But they made millions out of it in the meantime.

So that was the biggest con in UFO history.

So it's not easy because if we're honest,

we're all looking for an answer.

And somebody-

Something is happening.

Yeah!

I know there's a genuine phenomena

and we all want to know what it is.

Some people believe they know what it is,

or they have an opinion on what it may be.

You know, if someone comes along and dangles that carrot

and said, "I've got this, I wanna show you this."

It's very difficult to hold back, you know?

As we had recently with the fake mummies in Mexico,

not that many years back with the fake Roswell slides,

again in Mexico.

So faking and hoaxing is part of the business,

and we just have to realize that.

So when somebody says to me now, "I've got a photograph,"

I instantly think it's a fake

because we have the technology to do that

pretty much on your phone, let alone anyway.

So I treat it as a fake to begin with and then look into it.

But, you know, whereas before you would probably say,

"Oh, great! We've got a photograph to work with."

You know, that used to be a print, a photograph, you know?

And where can we get this scanned

and where can we get it analyzed?

But now it's the other way around.

I treat them all as fake to begin with.

So you should just be wary.

Had things put up my nose, you know?

Had things done to my female parts.

But you can't prove it.

Things like what?

You know? I don't know.

I can't tell you exactly.

A lot of different probes

and things that go into you, you know?

You've like found a probe?

No!

Okay.

That's what they do.

Because if you found a probe, I'd like to see it.

No!

Really. Okay, so.

But waking up in the morning with a bloody nose, you know?

And having pain right here

and remembering something being put up my nose, you know?

All of that. Now, it's really scary.

And I don't see why a person would lie about a UFO.

If it happens to you, it's scary. It is.

I came across some that

I think they'd witnessed something,

but I don't think there was anything

other than what they saw.

You know, they weren't lying.

I think they wanted to be more,

and so those kinda cases didn't make it into the book.

I actually kinda left them.

Oh, well, what do you mean by that?

Like, they saw a UFO?

Yeah, they'd had a sighting,

but they then thought that more may have happened to them.

But when you sit down and talk to them,

I could find no indication.

It was a lot of wishful thinking.

Ah!

Not outright hoaxing, you know?

They'd perhaps read something or watched a documentary,

or whatever, you know?

Yeah.

And so I never found any hoaxes.

Probably Britain's best known abduction case

happened in 1980,

and it was Police Constable Alan Godfrey in West Yorkshire,

in the town of Todmorden.

And he was on night patrol, just finishing actually,

you know, so it was early morning,

half past five-ish in AM.

He was in the patrol car on his own.

He'd been looking for some cows

that had been reportedly escaped.

And he thinks, "I'll go, take one last look round."

He saw down in the town center,

he saw an officer on foot patrol,

and he stopped and had a quick chat with him.

So Alan thought, "That's it, I'm done."

He's driving back up through the town

towards where the police station was,

and he was about to turn into the road

to go to the police station

and up ahead, in the distance, on this road,

he saw some lights.

He thought, "That's funny."

And he didn't turn off. He kept on going.

And when he got closer, it wasn't just lights,

there was a thing literally blocking the road.

As I came up the road here,

I was confronted with this diamond-shaped object.

It was dark colored.

There was a bank of panels or windows across the top.

The bottom was solid, the bottom was spinning.

He said they could see the debris underneath it in the road

rotating with it.

Couldn't get past it,

it was just off the road level, fairly big.

It was approximately 20 feet wide,

it was about 14 feet high.

It extended the full road here.

It was hovering about five feet off the ground.

There was no noise coming from the object,

but the trees were all shaking violently.

And he's still in his patrol car.

Couldn't get through on his radio,

which that wasn't unusual in the area.

Was that unusual?

Not in that particular area.

There are black spots in the area.

But the radios have worked there since.

So he got out his clipboard

and he started to draw it.

The car's stationary.

While I remember starting to draw it,

I can't remember ever finishing the drawing,

because at that time there was a large, bright.

Pure brilliance.

The next thing he remembers,

he's several hundred yards further down the road

driving the car.

So he stops, turn around, this thing has gone,

but he said it had been raining during the night

and where this thing had been on the road, it was dry.

You know, it was a dry patch.

He got back to the police station.

He noticed that his police boot was split

when it hadn't been the night before,

and he had a mark on the instep of his foot.

Didn't know what happened there.

When I got back to the station,

I found that me left boot was split,

and I had a burn mark on the instep of me left foot.

And it was round circle like that, red,

and it was very, very itchy.

Wasn't sore, but it was very, very itchy.

He reported the incident the next day.

He wrote out a report, he saw his boss.

And sometime later

he got involved with local UFO researchers.

They put Alan under hypnosis.

They hired two professional psychologists to do this.

Their blood pressure soars, their pulse rate soars,

they are very distressed under hypnosis.

And after hypnosis,

they cannot remember what they have said.

They didn't let Alan...

They had it filmed as well.

They didn't let Alan remember anything or see anything.

The interrogation was conducted by the doctor

who didn't even know that it was a UFO event.

I deliberately didn't tell them.

Once that was over, they played the hypnosis tape to Alan,

and it's very compelling.

He sees this light coming from this thing,

and he throws his arms up like that.

There's a light. Strange light.

He reports seeing these strange creatures and so on.

What did they look like?

There were two actually, one that was pretty much human.

Called him Joseph.

He even had a little skull cap on and a white robe.

Was he Jewish?

Alan wasn't!

And the others, he sort of grimaced when he saw the others.

He said they had a head shaped like

the old-fashioned light bulbs.

And believe it or not,

he said there was a black dog on the UFO.

A black dog!

Just straight up canine?

Straight up, black dog.

Under hypnosis,

he recalls an alien called Joseph,

and then some smaller aliens and a dog appeared,

tugging and pulling him towards the table

and forcing him to lie down.

The light bulb heads,

did they have big almond-shaped black eyes?

Or?

He didn't really go into that.

He just recoiled from them.

They're horrible.

Who's horrible?

They are.

Who's they?

I don't wanna talk about them.

Now, you ask Alan about the thing on the road.

He says, "Philip!"

And I've interviewed him several times.

He's in the book, "Without Consent."

He said, "If I had had a stone or a brick."

As you know, our police officers don't carry guns.

He said, "I could have hit it and it would've gone clunk."

I did see a UFO that night.

Make no mistake about that.

I definitely saw what I saw.

And nobody on this Earth will ever tell me any different.

As for the hypnosis,

he said, "I can't remember that."

You make of it what you will.

I did read quite a few science fiction books,

and it is quite possible that

that part of the hypnotic regressions

has got jumbled up in me mind.

But Alan had more to lose than he had to gain

by telling this story.

You know, he was a serving police officer at the time.

He had commendations.

Anyway, are they just tricks of the mind

or elaborate hoaxes?

Abductees in general, including Alan Godfrey,

have far more to lose than they have to gain

by going on the record.

He was what we call an old-fashioned police officer.

If he could, if you did a minor offense,

he'd rather give you a telling off

rather than give you a speeding ticket or whatever.

You know?

Mm! Good guy.

He was that kind of, you know,

no nonsense kind of police officer.

And eventually he had to come out of the police force.

But he had a lot to lose, did Alan, you know?

And...

So his character is professional?

Yeah. Yeah.

He went on television and talked about it.

If you think of a double-decker bus sideways,

that's how big it was.

And I got within about 20 yards.

I've never, ever said that I've met an alien.

Sure!

Ah, I wouldn't know what I'd do if I met one.

The reaction within the job

and from the Ministry of Defense

and their investigations that I had to go on there,

obviously I became interested in what I'd actually seen.

In the hypnotic regression,

they actually examined me left foot.

Now, that's remarkable to me

with the other evidence of the other police officers

seeing the craft as well.

Former police officer John Porter

is meeting Alan Godfrey.

Both reported seeing something unexplained

on the night of the 28th of November, 1980.

John Porter was the dog handler,

and they had gone up onto the moors above Halifax,

when they became aware below the cloud was

a large, blue pulsating ball.

What's peculiar, Darcy, he wrote an official report

that was sent to the Ministry of Defense.

But you can't.

It's not there in any of their files, you know?

And I don't disbelieve Alan, he did write it.

But that's, you know,

that's probably the best known case in the UK.

A couple of years back,

Alan finally wrote his own book about it.

Yeah.

Which is a great read.

He's been on several documentaries,

but what about him and not what happened to him afterwards,

because the police force turned against him.

Really?

Yeah! And eventually forced him out.

Really?

Yeah! Yeah.

Now, we knew about that.

But Alan hadn't put it down in writing.

They didn't like him at this point.

Well, he reported it officially.

And when he went on television,

he asked for permission first.

He didn't just do it.

And the chief constable said, "Yeah, that's fine."

But whatever happened in the background,

I don't know,

but they eventually squeezed Alan out, you know?

And it's all detailed in the book of what happened.

Yeah.

So he had a lot to lose, and in the end, he lost it.

Amidst the UFO activity

that was surrounding Pascagoula, Mississippi in 1973,

this footage was captured just the night before

Calvin Parker and Charlie Hickson were allegedly abducted.

This footage of a UFO that seemed to be blue in color.

So a couple of years down the line, 2017,

I'd always had this interest in the Pascagoula case

from when I first read about it in a magazine

in the early 1980s.

And I wanted to buy a copy of Charles Hickson's book

that he co-authored with a chap called William Mendez,

and it came out in 1983.

And I looked online

and there were a few copies floating around,

but that was all,

and they were asking crazy amounts of money for them.

But nonetheless, I bought one and I thought,

"I'd love to republish this."

So it took me a while,

but I found out who owned the rights to it,

and we agreed on it.

And I literally had to retype the whole book.

I had no file to work from.

I just had the physical hardback and that was it.

So any typos in it are all down to me, you know?

But I thought at the same time,

I knew Charlie Hickson was deceased.

I wasn't sure about the other chap involved, Calvin Parker.

I thought, "If Calvin's still alive,

maybe I could get an interview with him and bring the book,

put an extra chapter in it, and bring it up to date."

So that's what I set out to do.

It took me some months to find Calvin,

and I emailed him initially,

and he responded and he gave me his phone number.

And when I first spoke to him, he was very polite,

but it was quite clear he was very, very much on his guard

with what he said.

Because here's this strange sounding chap

from across the Atlantic speaking to him, you know?

What I didn't know is

just some weeks before I contacted him,

he'd been to the friend,

a funeral of a friend with his wife Waynette.

And as they're coming out of the funeral home or church,

or whatever it was, he signed the book,

and he signed it, "Calvin Parker."

Book of condolence.

And then the people behind him when they seen Calvin Parker,

that was like, you know, wink, wink, nudge, nudge.

You know, the alien guy?

Which he didn't like because he thought at first

it was disrespectful to his dead friend.

So when they out of there, you know,

he talked to Waynette about it, and she said,

"Look, why don't you write your own book?

Why don't you tell your story once and for all?"

From your perspective?

Yeah!

And, you know, people don't have to hint, hint,

wink, wink, nudge, nudge.

It's there. They can read it.

So he said, "Yes, darling.

Of, course darling, I'll do that."

He had no intention of doing it,

but he said that to placate his wife.

And that was Waynette.

She'd been with him from the very beginning.

You know, they were engaged when all this started in 1973.

So, you know, eventually he told me this little story.

And he says, "I've started writing a book."

So my ears pricked up when he said that.

And I said, "Well, I'll send you a draft contract

you can have a look at."

He said, "Okay."

So I emailed him a contract.

And again, he had no intention of writing a book with me,

you know, at that point.

So I was talking to him about it again.

And he said, "Well, you know, I don't trust people, Philip.

I've spoken to that many journalists in the past

and they always twisted their words."

Well, I said, "The only way to get round that, Calvin,

is if you write it yourself, your own words, you know?"

So he agreed!

And he said,

"On one condition I'll do this book with you, Philip,

is that you don't change a word,

"even if I've spelt it incorrectly."

Because he said, "I want people to know me, my character",

my upbringing, my background,

"as well as what happened to us back in 1973."

So I agreed, and we were off and running.

You know, we discussed the outline of the book first

and we'd do one piece at a time.

Calvin would write it, send it to me,

and I'd say, "I need a bit more about that.

I don't understand this.

What does this mean?"

And eventually we'd end up with a finished chapter,

and we went chapter by chapter by chapter,

and the book came out in 2018.

It was "Pascagoula: The Closest Encounter."

Aliens, forgive me for laughing,

but it's kind of amusing to think about,

are borrowing Americans by the carload for medical probes

is naturally hard to swallow

no matter how much serious study lies behind it.

One skeptic is Philip Klass,

a contributing editor to "Aviation Week & Space Technology."

He has written his own

critical analysis of abduction reports.

Philip Klass joins our discussion with David Jacobs,

author of "Secret Life:

Firsthand Accounts of UFO Abductions."

Philip, have you read David's book?

No, I've not, but I've read many of his papers.

I heard him speak in Chicago.

I attend most of the UFO conferences.

And?

And you smile and you laugh, but in my opinion,

this is very serious business.

It's serious business because if his fantasies are fact,

it is the greatest threat

to the wellbeing of the people of this nation,

of this planet, since this country was created.

Why?

Why?

If aliens are invading our bedrooms,

impregnating our teenage girls,

if they're abducting little children,

cutting flesh samples out without even putting bandaids on,

if you're not safe anywhere on the face of the Earth,

then it is something that this nation needs to mobilize.

So you think it's a fantasy of Mr. Jacobs,

or a fantasy of the people he's talked to?

It's a combination of both.

As a result, Calvin attracted both local,

national, and international media.

And of course, nowadays, you know,

the media has changed a lot since back in 1973.

And I looked at the media that he received

and nobody was laughing at him now,

nobody was, you know, pulling silly faces

or anything like that.

Starting to get normalized?

Yeah!

And what that did,

I mean, he did a piece with a local journalist,

a lady called Karen Nelson.

She was quite skeptical

and she worked for a local newspaper.

So not only did she interview him,

she made a little film while she was doing it.

And off we went. We were up and running.

And it probably shouldn't have surprised us

because where they were fishing that night

on October the 11th, 1973,

is not an out of the way place.

It's not in the Mississippi swampland,

it's right next to Highway 90.

There's a huge motorway bridge,

or highway bridge,

as you might want to call it in the States,

go right across the river.

It's a busy place.

You know, there's ship buildings still on the river.

So even back in 1973,

we found some vintage footage of people then saying,

"I saw it that night."

It was even on Walter Cronkite, you know?

Even Walter Cronkite covered the story.

For weeks now,

there've been reports of UFO sightings

in many parts of the country,

but especially the Gulf Coast.

One newspaper put a sketch of

a supposed extraterrestrial visitor on the front page.

His abduction and other people as well,

coming forward, saying, "I saw this, that, and the other."

I don't know what it was.

I know it wasn't a plane or a helicopter.

And the case just took off from there,

and that's how I got involved.

So what about this case makes you think

this is 100% authentic?

Yeah! I mean...

I mean, if you were to start off as a UFO investigator

and write down what your ideal case would be,

what would it need to have?

Well, first and foremost, we have two witnesses.

Most abductions, not all, but most are single witnesses.

A lot are in their homes.

Here we've got two guys right next to the highway

in plain sight.

Parker and his fishing buddy,

42-year-old Charles Hickson,

would do anything but fish that night.

Then, of course,

they reported the incident to

Jackson County Sheriff's Department,

Which we do have the audio.

Yeah, we have the audio of it.

And they were interviewed by the sheriff and his deputies,

both separately and then together,

and they were secretly recorded.

In that secret recording,

they're still talking about what happened to them.

Calvin's going crazy, you know?

The very next day

they're even interviewed at Keesler Air Force Base,

which they had phoned first that night,

and they told them to go away.

And we have the full transcript of the interview

at Keesler Air Force Base.

They didn't have a tape recorder at Keesler,

they had a stenographer.

And we have all the personnel that were there,

all the Air Force personnel are all named.

There's nothing redacted.

And then when we started to look into the case

and it got wider publicity again back in 2018, 2019,

we found some vintage, you know, people from the 1973,

that had witnessed other things that night.

Echo, 6-110. Object on it.

Oh! Got it!

Woo-hoo!

Roger.

On November the 6th, 1973,

so just a few weeks after Charlie and Calvin's encounter,

in the same stretch of water,

but just a little bit further out where they were fishing,

three little skiffs went out fishing one night

with nine people on board

and they observed something under the water.

And it lit up, it was circular.

They said it was separated like

the old Second World War parachutes.

They got so close to it, they could hit it with an oar

and it went clunk!

And they chased it around the harbor, around the water,

for about 40 minutes playing cat-and-mouse.

These fishermen went in person to the Coast Guard office

and reported it.

The Coast Guard sent a boat out.

They also saw it and they also hit it with an oar,

and it went clunk.

Now in our book, "Beyond Reasonable Doubt,"

there's the full story of that encounter under the water.

We even interviewed

the last remaining one of those fishermen

that's still alive.

And we have the official Coast Guard documents

describing everything about it.

And in those documents it says,

"This thing was unidentified."

And we even have a handwritten letter

by one of the Coast Guard crew

to the late UFO researcher Leonard Stringfield,

detailing what he saw and a drawing of it.

So when it comes to today

when people are talking about things being underwater,

it's nothing new.

Here we have it in Pascagoula, in the Pascagoula River,

just three weeks after Charlie and Calvin's encounter.

Is there a connection?

I don't know.

We even found that the sheriff who was involved,

Sheriff Fred Diamond,

two nights later had his own UFO sighting.

We found that in a newspaper.

So then others started to come out of the woodwork

and say, "Well, I saw it that night."

You know, they'd seen Calvin on TV or in the newspaper,

realized he wasn't being made a fool of anymore.

He was taken seriously.

And they were also of an age now where they were,

"If I don't tell my story now, I never will.

And if somebody laughs at me, I couldn't care less."

You know?

And you don't think

any of those people were a fraud?

Not that I can pick out.

Some may be mistaken about things they saw that night,

but we certainly have no indication of a fraud.

Can't be 100% sure, of course,

because not all of them stepped forward.

We found some.

I'll give you an example.

When Calvin's book came out,

a gentleman called Stefanos, Stefanos Panagiotakis,

from Greece contacted us and he says in 1981,

so it's eight years after the event,

he was in the Greek Merchant Navy

and he was a radio operator,

and the ship he was on actually docked in Pascagoula.

And he had a week's shore leave.

Stefanos was also a UFO researcher,

and used to write for a magazine back home in Greece.

So he set off to get an interview with Charles Hickson,

which he did.

He then went to the police station,

see if they could help with any information.

And they said,

"You ought to go and speak to this gentleman.

He's a pastor.

He's called Emmanuel Sigalas."

He saw something that night.

So they gave Stefanos his address

and he literally went up and knocked on the door,

and, hey, presto, Pastor Sigalas was of Greek origin.

Well, his family were anyway.

So they got along well.

So, come on in!

And Stefanos interviewed him

and he'd still got the transcript of the interview,

so we had another witness to the event.

We managed to find the pastor mentioned in a newspaper.

He'd also witnessed this UFO that night

with a chap called Dom Broadus.

Mr. Broadus was with the police probation service.

And in the newspaper article it said

there was a young lady with them, a church volunteer.

Basically, that night of Thursday, October the 11th, 1973,

all three of them were in a car.

The young lady's in the back seat, she's a church volunteer.

And they were going to a meeting

that dealt with people who had alcohol problems.

AA?

Yeah! Sponsored by the church.

And as they're going out of the town,

she's looking out the side window

and she sees this thing coming,

and it goes right across the road in front of them.

And they drew it for Stefanos.

And it is very much like the oval-shaped object

with two lights on that Charlie and Calvin saw.

It was heading in their general direction.

However, Mr. Sigalas and Mr. Broadus had since passed away.

And we found the name of the lady in the back of the car.

She was called Jo Ann Hallmark.

So we set off on a search to see if we could find her.

We found an old photograph of her from the '70s.

She'd only lived in Pascagoula for a couple of years.

She'd been a teacher,

and she helped out at the local church.

I found a couple of social media accounts for her,

but they hadn't been used for years.

I left messages and got nowhere, so I left it.

At some point, I went back,

had another look at these social media accounts

and I noticed on one of them there was a name of a church.

So I literally Googled that name!

And there was such a church, but it wasn't in Mississippi,

it was in Maryland, and the church had a website.

When you go on that website,

and there was even a couple of sermons

that you could download and listen to.

And lo and behold,

these sermons were done by two men called Hallmark.

I'm thinking, "Are these her sons?" You know?

So the church had a very general email address,

you know, info church at whatever,

so I sent them a very general request.

I'm looking to speak to Miss Hallmark.

She worked with Pastor Sigalas in 1973

in Pascagoula, Mississippi.

If I found the right place, and if she's around,

could you pass this email on?

I didn't mention UFOs or anything.

About three or four weeks later, hey, presto,

Mrs. Hallmark contacted me.

She confirmed she worked with Mister,

you know, Pastor Sigalas.

So I then had to tell her what I was interested in.

And she come back again, she left it a few weeks,

came back, said, "Yeah!"

She confirmed it all.

I've now started working with my colleague in the states,

Dr. Irena Scott, who lives in Ohio.

So I said, "Can I have a telephone number?"

She said, "Yeah."

I passed that on to Dr. Scott,

and she did an interview on the telephone.

So Mrs. Hallmark didn't step forward,

we managed to find her.

And she was, again, quite willing to speak.

And I sent her a copy of the old black and white photograph

we had of her from the, I think it was from 1974.

And she was amused at that, you know?

And then she sent me one of her as she is today.

And, you know, that's in the book with her permission.

So there were those that said,

"Oh, these people are looking for their 15 minutes of fame."

Well!

But you had to find them?

We had to find them.

You know, we had to find Mrs. Hallmark.

And that's just one example, you know?

And, but again, she was now of an age that

she wasn't bothered what people may or may not think.

There was a slight discrepancy of

what we read in the newspaper

compared to what she had to say.

But I would expect slight discrepancies,

'cause that's what happen when people tell stories.

If they're 100% accurate, each one,

then you should be on your guard.

Same with Charlie and Calvin,

these strange humanoid creatures.

They look like tinfoil beings.

They look, you know,

I've never found them in another case.

They are totally unique.

They were like metallic, right?

Well, not metallic.

They said...

The illustrations

always make them look like wavy metal.

Yeah, no they're not.

They were a dull gray wrinkly.

They said like an elephant skin.

Pascagoula '73 is the case we should be concentrating on.

I'm not saying that just 'cause I'm involved, you know?

I only got involved by accident, kind of.

But again, like I said, if you were a UFO investigator,

to write down the kind of case you'd love to have,

it's almost perfect.

You know, two witnesses,

interviews at the sheriff,

interviews at the Air Force Base.

Lots of other sightings, things seen in the river.

All the witnesses who were on the opposite side of the river

that night, you know?

And on and on we go.

It even made its way into popular culture.

The commercial appeal.

Yeah!

And there's Charlie.

Yeah.

So it's approximately, you know, a year later is this one.

And what's good, if you just scroll down a bit

underneath that picture is there's the comic book.

Comic book. Right.

It gives us a time of when

the comic book was produced.

So it's 1973, '74 probably.

So they've just isolated bits of it.

But we have a glorious color.

They don't half make them look glamorous there, don't they?

I mean, Charlie was bald.

He's suddenly grown some hair.

And the saucer, well,

I mean, it looks like a typical saucer, right?

Yeah.

These guys got like hover boots on or something.

Yeah. It is what it is, isn't it?

You know, capitalize on it.

An example of how the case made its way

into popular culture.

And Charlie and Calvin were totally oblivious of it.

I mean, totally.

One of the most famous bands in the world, Fleetwood Mac.

Ah, yeah!

1976, they released a song called "Hypnotized."

That's partially based on the Charlie and Calvin encounter.

♪ It's the same old story ♪

♪ That seems to come down ♪

♪ From long ago ♪

♪ Two friends having coffee together ♪

♪ Something flies by the window ♪

How do you know that?

It was in a magazine about them.

I read it in a magazine article about them.

And even recently,

it's been the 50th anniversary of the Pascagoula case.

Two local guys in America,

I can't remember the names off the top of me head,

wrote songs about them and released them.

Very cool.

So in 1976, Italian television company, Rai,

made a two-part TV series.

Special?

No! Drama series.

It's called "Extra," and I have a copy of it on DVD.

Can't understand the word of it, of course,

but it's about Charlie and Calvin.

Wow!

Well, and on it goes, you know?

They featured in the front cover of.

"Rolling Stone" magazine.

They were in "Playboy" magazine!

Charlie Hickson and others were in "Playboy,"

and I have a copy of it.

It's not a rumor, you know?

I have the PDF and the, you know, the hard copy as well.

So it made its way into popular culture as well.

And we still, you know, we're still finding it.

It turned up in newspapers here, there,

and everywhere, you know?

Which doesn't surprise me.

And here we are talking about it 50 years later

and it's almost,

there's not,

I don't think there's anything as the perfect case

'cause we haven't got an end product.

Can't rubber stamp it and say, "This is what happened."

What we argue in our book, "Beyond Reasonable Doubt,"

is if we could take all this evidence

and all these people

and all these documents into court,

and we could prove beyond reasonable doubt

that something totally bizarre,

something extraordinary happened that night.

What? I don't know.

You know? But something, you know?

The way I termed it, Darcy,

Charlie and Calvin were two ordinary men.

On that night of October the 11th, 1973,

they encountered the extraordinary.

And it changed their lives.

And it changed their lives forever.

So after we got off work,

probably 4:30, I think,

we were working nine hours a day,

I came home and to get my fishing gear

and we wouldn't go out in a boat

because we were going to the banks of the river

and fish from the banks for speckled trout and redfish.

So we tried.

We, yeah, we got our bait and we got to the river

and tried several spots,

and it become dark by that time.

We do quite a bit of fishing after dark, you know,

down here over in that time of year.

So, I don't know what attracted my attention.

Well, I had reached around and get more bait,

which was sitting behind us,

or I heard some kind of zipping-like sound,

like air or steam or something escaping from a pipe.

And as I turned around, I saw some two blue flashing lights,

or either pulsating lights, I'm not sure.

And it seemed like it was some type of craft

and it seemed like it was almost down to the ground then.

In fact, it seemed to be about a couple of feet,

you know, above the ground,

and it just hovered there.

So Calvin had turned by this time

and he was looking at it too,

and really I didn't know what to do.

I just...

I just fell down there for a few minutes just,

and then almost immediately some type of opening appeared

in the end that was toward us

which what I assume to be the front end,

and the light had come outside, which is,

it was real, real bright light.

And three things appeared in the doorway of the craft,

and they seemed to just glide out of the craft.

They never touched the ground.

They seemed to just glide across.

It must have been 25 or 30 feet from us,

or maybe a little further than that.

And they came to us, just glided over to us,

and two of them took me by the arms on the side,

and one took hold of Calvin, and I seen Calvin go limp.

And I didn't know it then, but he had fainted.

So they carried me inside the craft

and the light was almost blinding inside.

In fact, for about three or four days,

I had something like a bad welding flash in my eyes.

And I can't recall, or I can't remember,

just what was on the inside,

simply because the light was so bright that

I just couldn't make out what it was.

But I didn't see any tables or chairs

and the room seemed to be round.

Of course that could have been because

the light seemed to be glowing from the walls

and the overhead and the ceiling.

But they carried me, what, I guess about middle of the room

and we would just seem to be suspended there.

I couldn't move, I didn't have any feelings,

no sensation of any feel.

And it seemed to something like a big eye.

I keep referring to it as an eye

because it was about the size of a small baseball.

In the end, it was focused toward me,

was a different color or a different light.

And it seemed to come directly out from the wall.

And it came within six or eight inches of my face.

And it remained there for a few minutes,

and then it, very few minutes,

and then it went over my entire body.

I'm assuming it did because when it went down like this,

I seemed to be suspended there.

And the next time I seen it,

it was coming back up over this way.

So I assumed that it went over my entire body.

So it came back in front of my face

and stayed there for a few more minutes,

and then it seemed to just go right back into the wall.

And these things that, the way they were holding me,

I was elevated because they weren't as tall as me

and they were upright and I was elevated like this.

And I could see.

I could move my eyes, only the thing I could move.

And I could see that they had released me.

And I don't know where they went,

whether went outside the craft

or another room or compartment,

but they didn't come in front of me.

And they left me that way for a few minutes.

I don't know how long.

And then after a while,

I seen them then when they come back to the side of me

and took hold on me again,

and they carried me back outside the craft.

And we were still just gliding.

I wasn't touching anything that I know of.

And they seemed to just glide back out

the way they had taken me from

and put me back down on the ground.

But when they did, I fell because my legs were weak

and they gave way on me.

And it was this time that I seen Calvin again.

He was standing there,

he was standing facing the river with his arms outstretched,

and he was almost in shock.

He seemed to appear to me at that time he was,

that something was wrong with him.

So, I was trying to get, to make my way toward him,

and I was crawling, I couldn't get my legs to working.

But before I got to him,

the strength of what it was came back to my legs

and I was getting up on my feet,

and I heard the same,

the sound I'd heard before, a zipping sound.

And I glanced around and I saw the blue flashing lights,

and it was, the craft was just gone,

just almost instantly.

And I got to-

I made it to Calvin and I shook him and was calling to him.

And it took me several minutes to get him

where I could even even talk to him, you know,

with any sense.

And he was going in shock.

And these things that came out of the craft,

they were about five or five foot, four inches tall,

and they didn't have a neck.

The head seemed to come directly to the shoulders

and they had something that resembled a nose on a face,

and about where ears would be

was something that was similar to the nose,

only it was a little longer.

They seemed to come out almost to a point.

And under the nose,

there was something like a slit or a mouth

and it was very wrinkled,

and it seemed, it appeared to me,

to be something like an elephant skin,

but I don't know what it was.

A metal or what it was.

But it seemed to be very wrinkled

with the wrinkles running horizontal.

And in the area where the eyes should have been,

it was so wrinkled that I'm not even sure there was eyes.

I don't.

I can't recall whether there was any eyes or not.

In Calvin's head, he can't.

But anyway, after I broke,

I got Calvin where I could talk to him.

We didn't know what to do

and we were almost scared to death.

And we first decided we wouldn't tell anyone,

but the more we talked about it,

the more we realized that we had to tell somebody

who was the military authorities, if nobody else.

So we called Keesler Air Force Base,

which is only about 30 miles south of here.

And I talked to someone there

and they told me that

the Air Force didn't handle those things anymore,

that we would have to go through our sheriff's department.

Well, then we hesitated again because, you know,

you go to the people,

just something like that is not supposed to happen

and we knew we would probably be laughed at and ridiculed.

But we talked it over again

and decided we would call the sheriff's department,

and Sheriff Fred Diamond told us to come on over there,

that we'd talk about it.

So we stayed there for several hours talking with them

and them questioning us.

And the sheriff promised me that it wouldn't,

any news media know anything about it,

that he would try to get it to the proper authorities,

if he could find out who the proper authorities was,

and have it investigated.

So we went home that morning,

and it was morning

because they had kept us there quite late.

And with assurance that no-

There wouldn't be any publicity about it at all.

Well, we went on to work that morning,

and by seven or eight o'clock there was telephones ringing,

you know, all over the shipyard.

And I called Fred Diamond and he said that

he don't know how the story leaked out

in the sheriff's department, but, you know,

that by that time, the whole world knew about it.