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These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated: 1 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:18,960 We found the body of a child 2 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:21,680 laying in a small stream near a culvert. 3 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:26,880 Investigators have come together over the murder of a little girl. 4 00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:30,600 The most likely cause of death was suffocation. 5 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:33,560 But this case is different 6 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:37,320 because this murder happened more than 60 years ago. 7 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:42,560 These are the cold case detectives 8 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:46,200 pursuing justice in crimes often decades old. 9 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:51,280 A team of investigators and forensic experts at the South Wales Police. 10 00:00:56,320 --> 00:00:59,080 They're committed to solving the most baffling murders 11 00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:02,600 and sex crimes which have gone undetected for years. 12 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:05,040 Terrific, terrific. 13 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:08,120 I just hope he does get punished. 14 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:11,360 Using the latest developments in forensic science 15 00:01:11,440 --> 00:01:14,360 to uncover new evidence, they're determined to put 16 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:18,840 some of the most dangerous criminals behind bars. 17 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:21,920 The time will come where we will be knocking on their door 18 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:24,920 and their world is gonna cave in. 19 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:27,480 You're under arrest on suspicion of rape. 20 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:29,080 You don't have to say anything 21 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:31,800 but anything you do say may be given in evidence. 22 00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:52,480 So we're here to discuss a potential Cold Case forensic review 23 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:54,720 into the murder of Carol Stephens 24 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:59,840 a six year old girl who was abducted from Cardiff in 1959. 25 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:07,880 There are bereaved families of people who have been murdered 26 00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:09,760 and they've got unanswered questions. 27 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:14,560 If we've got the ability to be able to provide those answers. 28 00:02:14,640 --> 00:02:16,960 We serve the public so we must do that, 29 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:19,560 we must take those opportunities to do that. 30 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:24,800 These are scene photographs of the deposition site. 31 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:29,120 So you can have a look at those at your leisure, really. 32 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:34,440 But yeah, we've got everything she was wearing when she was taken. 33 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:37,720 We've got a cardigan, we got a dress, 34 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:40,960 we got a skirt and spectacles. 35 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:47,560 Carol Ann Stephens' killer evaded justice for more than 60 years. 36 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:52,880 But police now believe that recent advances in forensic science 37 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:55,800 might reveal traces of the killer's DNA 38 00:02:55,880 --> 00:02:57,360 on the little girls clothes. 39 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:02,360 Generically speaking we can look for touch DNA, 40 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:05,440 which we will do as matter course now with cases 41 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:09,440 but the chance of us finding anything is going to be quite slim. 42 00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:11,920 But also then body fluids, blood, semen, saliva, 43 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:14,000 we can have a look for things like that. 44 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:17,600 This is a 60 year-old case, so say the person who did it, 45 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:21,800 let's assume that he was 20 and he's going to be 80 now. 46 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:25,080 But he could be 30 then, so he could be 90 or deceased. 47 00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:28,040 So this is probably a last resort for us. 48 00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:31,600 So let's do what we can to try and provide some answers. 49 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:33,960 I'd be happy with that. 50 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:39,280 It still means an awful lot for a lot of people. 51 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:42,160 -It's a horrible case, isn't it? -Of course, it is. 52 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:46,240 Seasoned Detective Gerry Blake has his own personal reasons 53 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:48,600 for wanting justice for Carol. 54 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:54,080 In 1959 As a young boy, seven and a half years of age, 55 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:57,480 and I was actually in Sunday school with Carol 56 00:03:57,560 --> 00:04:00,680 a couple of days before she went missing. 57 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:08,120 That was someone that I knew and she was murdered. 58 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:12,000 You would like to see that justice is done on a personal matter 59 00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:13,440 because you knew the person 60 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:16,080 and then of course is the other professional aspect. 61 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:18,240 There is an undetected crime. 62 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:23,560 A child at the time, Gerry is now a cold case investigator 63 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:27,720 and this case has been a driving force throughout his career. 64 00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:33,720 Now, he finally has the chance to get justice for his friend. 65 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:38,880 She was in school with myself and my two sisters 66 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:42,600 and of course, we remember the event very, very well. 67 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:48,000 CATHAYS, CARDIFF 68 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:01,440 I knew Carol very well. 69 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:06,040 Carol was an innocent girl, a very chatty girl, 70 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:07,680 a very friendly girl. 71 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:10,640 She did have a propensity to wander 72 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:13,360 but people would look out for young children 73 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:16,360 and make sure that no harm would come to you. 74 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:21,520 That was a type of neighbourhood that we had here in Cathays. 75 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:32,920 This is 9, Malefant street the home of Carol Stephens. 76 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:42,720 When Carol went missing, there was great emotion here. 77 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:45,680 Everyone was saddened by the whole incident 78 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:49,960 and of course, it had a huge impact on the people in this community. 79 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:58,160 So coming back here is quite sad and so poignant. 80 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:03,760 It brings back so many, so many bad memories really, 81 00:06:03,840 --> 00:06:08,080 to think of that poor girl who was taken off the street. 82 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:15,280 It could have been any one of us. 83 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:30,840 Growing up in Cathays in my time, it was quiet. 84 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:34,280 People just went about their daily lives. 85 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:36,720 We went to school. We had the library. 86 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:40,600 Nothing bad happened. It just didn't. 87 00:06:41,840 --> 00:06:46,400 It was a nice quiet ordinary family area. 88 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:52,600 Gill Ward was 13 years old in 1959 89 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:55,680 and remembers Carol Ann Stephens from the neighbourhood. 90 00:06:57,320 --> 00:07:00,480 She was a quiet little girl with glasses... 91 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:05,560 and she would come down into our street 92 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:07,640 and play with the younger children. 93 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:12,040 She was in the wrong place at the wrong time. 94 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:23,440 This used to be the old corner shop, Wilkins shop. 95 00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:29,400 Carol would run an errand for her mother and attended the shop 96 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:31,840 and to buy sweets as well. 97 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:34,440 Carol Ann left the shop. 98 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:39,720 She walked back along the street... 99 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:44,000 and then later on in the day, 100 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:46,760 she was seeing knocking on the window of a car door 101 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:48,720 that was parked in Fairoak road 102 00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:51,040 which is just outside the cemetery. 103 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:14,880 That was a last known sighting of Carol Stephens. 104 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:24,960 When it happened, 105 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:29,240 there was a big sort of murmuring among the adults, I suppose, 106 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:32,720 that she'd wandered off somewhere and she'd be found. 107 00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:35,360 Then of course, when she wasn't found 108 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:39,160 there was a great rush for moms or dads 109 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:41,360 who didn't take their children to school. 110 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:46,120 They suddenly started to take them to school and meeting them 111 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:48,000 because they were frightened. 112 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:51,400 And who's to say that he wouldn't come back 113 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:53,160 and pick up another child 114 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:56,560 because as far as we were concerned, this... 115 00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:00,800 evil person could come around in a car 116 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:05,080 and take a child off the street just like that, as easy as that. 117 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:08,120 Which is very frightening. 118 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:19,360 I can remember obviously a detective coming around the houses. 119 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:22,280 Speaking to my mum and all the other mums. 120 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:23,960 When did they last see her? 121 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:28,400 Had they noticed anything strange? Cars, whatever. 122 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:32,240 I can't remember them speaking to any of us as children, 123 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:35,440 and that could have been as a protective sort of thing. 124 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:37,360 They didn't want to frighten us. 125 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:45,080 For everyone involved, it would be wonderful if they could solve it 126 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:49,480 and could finally find out who actually did it. 127 00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:53,120 It'll put a lot of minds at rest, I think. 128 00:09:57,480 --> 00:10:00,760 This case is undetected 129 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:05,160 and it would mean so much not just for the family, 130 00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:07,520 but also for the neighbours as well. 131 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:09,240 We've always thought and asked: 132 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:12,000 "Whatever happened to Carol Stephens?" 133 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:21,040 After decades of unanswered questions, 134 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:26,160 the team now prepares to examine the 60 year old evidence for DNA 135 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:29,240 in the hope of finally identifying Carol's killer. 136 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:40,280 As well as unsolved murder cases, 137 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:42,560 the cold case detectives are also reviewing 138 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:46,680 more than 300 historical sex crimes from the archives. 139 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:50,640 A mammoth task, code-named Operation Dudley. 140 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:55,720 DNA will also be key in their mission 141 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:58,360 to bring these sex offenders to justice 142 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:00,720 decades after their crimes. 143 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:05,800 Cold Case investigator James Phillips 144 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:08,440 is working through the list of unsolved sex attacks 145 00:11:08,520 --> 00:11:10,520 dating back to the 1980s. 146 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:15,280 He's looking for cases where there's now a realistic chance 147 00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:19,240 of finding offenders DNA from the historical evidence. 148 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:23,400 So I've started on the team two months ago. 149 00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:28,560 There's lots of improvements in the forensic science world. 150 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:31,120 We're looking at now at options and possibilities 151 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:34,120 of reviewing some of those exhibits that have been taken 152 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:37,920 and sending them off to be examined again, 153 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:40,360 hopefully with some hits. 154 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:45,040 When I joined the police force in1988, 155 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:48,560 DNA wasn't a thing. 156 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:53,760 Whereas previously, you would need a large amount of blood, 157 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:56,720 a large amount of semen in perhaps the early 90s, 158 00:11:56,800 --> 00:11:59,080 for a profile. 159 00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:02,520 Now they can pick up DNA profiles 160 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:07,400 from a slap on the back of a hand on someone's face. 161 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:09,000 It's just amazing. 162 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:14,480 Okay, this interview is being visually recorded. 163 00:12:14,560 --> 00:12:18,520 Police report staff ID : 56655. 164 00:12:20,560 --> 00:12:24,240 This man is being questioned on suspicion of rape. 165 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:28,080 He's been arrested by the cold case team 166 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:33,040 after advances in forensic science identified traces of his DNA 167 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:36,600 on the clothing of a woman who was raped 30 years ago. 168 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:40,520 In 1991, he victim was walking through a park in Cardiff 169 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:43,280 early evening, walking her dogs. 170 00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:50,600 She was brutally attacked, raped. 171 00:12:51,560 --> 00:12:57,120 And as a result of those injuries, she's required numerous operations. 172 00:12:57,200 --> 00:12:59,320 It must have been an horrendous attack. 173 00:13:01,680 --> 00:13:03,320 Three decades later, 174 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:06,320 a tiny semen stain on the victim's clothing 175 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:09,120 revealed the DNA profile of the attacker. 176 00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:13,520 By comparing this profile with the national DNA database, 177 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:17,680 the team got a match with a man called Antony Carling. 178 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:23,040 Every person that has come into custody for recordable offence 179 00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:25,720 has their DNA taken as a matter of course. 180 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:28,600 It's like having your fingerprints and photograph taken. 181 00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:36,720 For 30 years, 64 year old Carling thought he got away with his crime. 182 00:13:37,560 --> 00:13:40,360 Now, he has some explaining to do. 183 00:13:41,680 --> 00:13:44,880 It's amazing. It's like, let's go get him. 184 00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:47,320 It's just fantastic. 185 00:13:48,560 --> 00:13:52,600 The time is exactly 1500 hours. 186 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:56,960 Do you recall ever seeing a female walking dogs? 187 00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:02,040 How would I remember 30 years ago if somebody was walking a dog? 188 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:11,800 This female has got your semen on her at some point. 189 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:14,040 So that may jog the memory. 190 00:14:15,560 --> 00:14:19,480 Well, how would my semen be on somebody that I don't know? 191 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:22,280 That's what we're saying. 192 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:24,680 That's a very good question. Can you answer it? 193 00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:26,120 No, I can't. 194 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:30,080 Because she's given us an account why your semen is on her. 195 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:33,280 I haven't a clue why, sir. 196 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:39,240 Short on answers, Carling is charged with the rape. 197 00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:44,880 And 30 years after he brutally attacked a woman, 198 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:48,400 today he must face up to his crime in court. 199 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:50,880 Carling pleads guilty. 200 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:57,560 Back at base, the cold case team wait anxiously 201 00:14:57,640 --> 00:14:59,680 for Carling to be sentenced. 202 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:06,320 Alright, Paul, any news? 203 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:09,800 Oh, that's fantastic. That's unbelievable, isn't it? 204 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:13,160 Yes, it's a great result. 205 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:16,680 Yeah, we were hoping for double figures and well, 206 00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:18,720 that's even better, isn't it? So... 207 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:22,000 He deserves it. Oh, that's great. Thanks, Paul. That's fantastic. 208 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:24,560 Cheers, mate. Bye, bye bye. 209 00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:27,360 -12 years. -Bloody hell. 210 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:30,640 -He deserves at least that. -At least, yeah. 211 00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:32,800 Jeremy, he's put her through hell. 212 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:36,040 -That was brilliant. She was there? -Yeah. Yeah. 213 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:40,360 After 30 years of evading justice, 214 00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:42,480 with the overwhelming forensic evidence 215 00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:44,920 presented to the court by the team, 216 00:15:45,480 --> 00:15:48,680 Antony Carling receives a 12 year sentence 217 00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:51,520 for the vicious rape in 1991. 218 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:57,120 12 years, it's just a phenomenal result really. 219 00:15:57,200 --> 00:15:59,480 Although it's happened a long time ago, 220 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:03,680 staff files never closed and we're always trying to investigate 221 00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:07,520 and find and get a bit of closure for our victim. 222 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:15,880 The conviction of culling for rape is an important result for the team. 223 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:19,000 But there's no time to rest on their laurels. 224 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:22,920 Seasoned Detective Gerry Blake is on a mission to crack a case 225 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:26,560 that has gone unsolved for over 60 years. 226 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:30,560 The murder of his childhood friend, Carol Ann Stephens. 227 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:34,200 I'd be absolutely elated. 228 00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:36,440 One has to consider... 229 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:39,240 the background of this person, 230 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:42,640 and were there any other offences committed? 231 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:48,120 So by progressing the science and the forensic aspect of this case 232 00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:50,720 we don't know what we'll get at the end of it. 233 00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:55,840 Key to solving the case will be understanding 234 00:16:55,920 --> 00:17:00,120 what lines of inquiry were followed back in the 1950s. 235 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:04,680 If the files are here, hopefully they're going to be in this section 236 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:06,600 but we can check the others as well. 237 00:17:08,360 --> 00:17:12,000 Incredibly, most of the case papers have survived. 238 00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:17,240 It's amazing, as you as you go through some of these 239 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:22,360 from my service I remember the names and some of the cases. 240 00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:26,080 What about this? That's the only box there? 241 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:28,200 It's the only box, yes. 242 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:30,560 Well that's fantastic for a start. 243 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:33,120 It gives us a start, Carol Ann, doesn't it? 244 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:47,400 Unfortunately, they don't all appear to be in numerical order. 245 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:52,200 Really and truly patience is a virtue. 246 00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:54,720 To test your eyesight. 247 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:59,280 It's just a matter of waiting through it. 248 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:04,400 I joined the police force in the late 70s. 249 00:18:06,120 --> 00:18:09,480 I was enthusiastic to become a policeman. 250 00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:12,240 I was in my 20s when I joined. 251 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:15,480 It was something that I wanted to do for a long, long time. 252 00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:19,440 I didn't have the confidence to apply for the job. 253 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:22,880 I was in engineering before I became a policeman 254 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:24,760 but it was something I wanted to do. 255 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:29,720 I think once you're a policeman, you're always the policeman. 256 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:33,360 You're of service, you want to serve the public 257 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:38,320 the community around you and be helpful as much as you can. 258 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:45,000 Amongst the boxes of evidence, 259 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:48,000 Gerry and the team find the original witness statements 260 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:50,360 taken by the police in 1959, 261 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:52,920 from the residents of Cathays in Cardiff, 262 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:55,680 the area where Carol went missing. 263 00:18:55,760 --> 00:18:59,560 They make a reference to Carol being a chatterbox. 264 00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:05,320 It appeared that she was going to be going somewhere that morning. 265 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:10,080 There's a shopkeeper that says she would normally stay and chat. 266 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:11,800 She didn't. 267 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:15,880 It appears that she was more excited than normal. 268 00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:23,200 Here's the bit, Gerry, about that lady you said about the garage. 269 00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:26,520 She saw Carol Stephens in a green coloured motorcar 270 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:29,520 which might have been a Morris Minor. 271 00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:33,120 But then she was not sure the colour 272 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:35,880 she put it the green or dark coloured car. 273 00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:40,080 Carol was also seen by several witnesses 274 00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:43,600 playing with a group of children in the street that morning. 275 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:47,440 They identified one little boy 276 00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:51,400 who was in what we termed in the day was a Red Indian outfit. 277 00:19:58,040 --> 00:19:59,800 He was with Carol. 278 00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:02,920 At the time that she approached, 279 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:06,000 so both of them approached a motorcar. 280 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:09,480 He was suggesting it was a dark coloured car. 281 00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:19,320 He would be the last person to see her alive. 282 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:22,720 And the last person to see the killer. 283 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:27,560 He's a key witness and I think it's a shame he was only six. 284 00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:29,840 -Was a six? -Would have been the same age. 285 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:32,680 It's a shame he wasn't old enough to make a statement. 286 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:35,240 -It's clarified in the report. -What does it say? 287 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:38,320 The children were too young to provide statements. 288 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:51,280 He is vital. 289 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:56,280 He's seen the car, he's seen the colour of the car 290 00:20:56,360 --> 00:20:59,480 and he's seen the driver of the car. 291 00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:05,440 Other witnesses were only able to give a sketchy description 292 00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:07,280 of the man in the car. 293 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:12,960 From that fireman statement, 294 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:16,040 tends to suggest the person sitting in the car, 295 00:21:16,120 --> 00:21:18,520 they referred to them as commercial travellers. 296 00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:20,880 And appeared not to enjoy the best health, 297 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:22,520 although he was clean shaven. 298 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:28,520 This suspicious driver was now the prime suspect. 299 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:34,320 Finding him became the focus of the inquiry. 300 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:40,880 But after two weeks, 301 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:44,920 the search for a missing child became a murder hunt. 302 00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:53,480 Carol's body was found 60 miles west of Cardiff 303 00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:57,680 in a stream near the remote village of Horeb. 304 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:06,600 The news shook the community and her friends to the core. 305 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:11,880 When she'd been found... 306 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:17,360 it was a realisation that she'd been taken and actually killed 307 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:19,400 and that was a big shock. 308 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:24,920 There was great talk about how she was found so far away 309 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:29,840 because it was assumed she'd be found nearer to home. 310 00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:31,800 I mean, the talk was... 311 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:36,240 It's awful to talk about it because she's a little girl. 312 00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:40,200 Was she murdered in the area 313 00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:42,720 and then taken down later? 314 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:46,160 Did she travel all those hours in the car with somebody 315 00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:49,320 that she didn't know but obviously trusted 316 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:52,800 on what would have been a four hour car journey then 317 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:55,320 back in those days, no motorways. 318 00:22:56,520 --> 00:23:00,640 But it was just a terrible, terrible thing to a little child. 319 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:04,560 For everyone involved, 320 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:07,560 it would be wonderful if they could solve it 321 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:10,120 and draw a line under it. 322 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:22,760 -We go over this river. -Yeah. 323 00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:25,720 It's in that field there, I'm guessing 324 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:27,320 or that field over there. 325 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:29,920 Going somewhere and getting a feel 326 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:33,120 for where she's found is quite important. 327 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:36,880 The Cold Case team has come to the village of Horeb 328 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:40,560 to try and find the exact location where Carol's body was found 329 00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:42,560 more than 60 years ago. 330 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:45,760 -Where are we? -I think... 331 00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:48,440 Looking at those fields, I think we need to head 332 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:52,160 towards the left over there, because the stream is running down. 333 00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:58,680 Going there with the photograph from 1959 334 00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:02,960 and turn up there 60 years later and take another photo, 335 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:05,560 they're identical. It's like nothing's changed. 336 00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:19,000 So this is where she was found. 337 00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:24,080 Do we assume that she's come out to the culvert 338 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:27,560 or she's been brought down the sides of this? 339 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:33,000 It would be difficult to climb here carrying even a small child. 340 00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:35,080 It's difficult going down the incline 341 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:38,360 and she would have had more injuries if she had been thrown over. 342 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:42,680 So the tunnel itself 343 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:46,000 there's nothing in there, it's just a round, smooth tunnel. 344 00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:51,960 Is goes in about a meter and then it goes 45 degrees. 345 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:55,560 -Alright. -Up to under the road. 346 00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:58,480 The incline will bring things down. 347 00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:03,640 So that means then we need to find where she was put in. 348 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:14,720 This has always been at the back of my mind. 349 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:17,920 It's not really the main reason for joining the police force. 350 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:20,520 I think all police officers would like to detect 351 00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:22,600 every case that they're involved in. 352 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:27,280 This is poignant for me because I knew Carol Stephens. 353 00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:40,400 Alright, so this is above where we were just now. 354 00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:48,720 From what we've seen, the culvert goes up 355 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:51,800 and an incline comes out on that side of the road. 356 00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:57,200 -It was a pullen area. -It's pullen, isn't it? 357 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:05,120 Nobody would think anything of it. 358 00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:07,600 They might think you're just going into the field 359 00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:09,200 even if you parked up here. 360 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:19,720 Well, this is the entrance and look at the speed of the water. 361 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:24,400 You wouldn't have to remove a drain cover. 362 00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:28,080 It's a straightforward access from the road. 363 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:30,200 He's driven along here. 364 00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:33,720 He's pulled in off the roads and natural pulling, 365 00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:35,360 carries her here, 366 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:39,120 puts her into the culvert at this point. 367 00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:43,000 He must have thought the chance of her ever being found here 368 00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:44,480 is minimal. 369 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:48,080 I can't imagine he thought she'd be found, not for a long time. 370 00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:53,760 From here, you'd have to know about this. 371 00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:55,760 Oh, you'd have to know about it. 372 00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:57,800 You would know the area, wouldn't you? 373 00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:06,200 To be able to conceal Carol's body in that culvert 374 00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:10,760 someone must have known about the culvert and the area 375 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:13,120 so therefore must have local knowledge. 376 00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:17,960 So this narrows down who the killer might. 377 00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:23,520 The team are now convinced Carol Ann Stephens killer 378 00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:26,680 was a travelling salesman with a dark Morris Minor 379 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:30,440 and had local knowledge of West Wales. 380 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:36,840 Gerry and James are now on the trail of a suspect 381 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:39,920 who was identified back in 1959. 382 00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:45,000 A local shopkeeper reported a suspicious conversation he'd had 383 00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:48,640 with a travelling salesman days before the murder. 384 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:54,760 The storekeeper being told by the travelling salesman a story 385 00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:57,640 which he thought was strange. 386 00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:01,200 and it was about picking up a girl. 387 00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:08,320 the suspicious salesman was identified as Ronald Edward Murray. 388 00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:16,880 Murray worked for Carson's confectionery company, 389 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:20,520 delivering sweets to Cardiff and across West Wales 390 00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:24,080 and drove a dark Morris Minor. 391 00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:32,960 Crucially, he had previously worked at the Brickworks 392 00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:34,840 in the village of Horeb. 393 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:39,960 Less than 300 yards from where Carol's body was found. 394 00:28:57,880 --> 00:28:59,200 Armed with this knowledge, 395 00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:01,880 Gerry and James have come to where the suspect lived, 396 00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:05,960 and where detectives came to question him in 1959. 397 00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:17,920 "I have reason to believe you may be to assist with inquiries 398 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:22,560 can you account for your movements on the day that she disappeared 399 00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:25,080 which was the 7th of April 1959 at Cardiff?" 400 00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:28,480 Murray says: "You don't think I have anything to do with it?" 401 00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:32,360 And then they asked him if they can have access to his car 402 00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:35,720 and take his vehicle, and he comments: 403 00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:38,800 "It's a firm's car but you can do what you want with it." 404 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:42,400 Then he gave them the keys to the car, he was quite... 405 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:44,960 -Helpful. -He was helpful. 406 00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:49,360 Albeit denying any involvement. 407 00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:53,240 After initially saying he was at home ill 408 00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:55,240 on the day Carol went missing, 409 00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:57,360 Murray then changed his story 410 00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:01,200 and admitted that he had actually travelled to Cardiff that day. 411 00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:04,960 In his own words, he parks up in Robert Street, 412 00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:08,880 which is only just a short distance from Carol's house. 413 00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:11,240 -It's where the kids were playing. -Exactly. 414 00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:14,680 And then he identifies the children playing in the streets. 415 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:24,920 According to Murray, he then drove home and spent the afternoon alone. 416 00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:31,160 He's home between about 12:15, 12:30. 417 00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:33,320 So no one accounts for his movements 418 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:35,040 until his lad comes home. 419 00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:37,880 -From school at quarter to four. -Quarter to four. 420 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:44,600 The pathologists saying that judging by Carol's stomach contents 421 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:46,520 the time of death 422 00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:51,160 would have been anytime between 12:15 and 2:45. 423 00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:54,440 -It's a window, isn't it? -That is that window. 424 00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:58,200 and he can't account for his movements during that time. 425 00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:08,280 There was a lot of circumstantial evidence suggesting 426 00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:11,440 Ronald Murray's involvement in the in the alleged offence 427 00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:14,600 but there wasn't that golden nugget, I would say, 428 00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:18,280 the forensic evidence so there wasn't enough to charge. 429 00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:22,480 But now Gerry and the team 430 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:26,280 hope they can take the case further than the original investigation 431 00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:30,440 and finally, prove or disprove Murray's involvement. 432 00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:34,640 We can only hope with the advances in technology 433 00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:38,320 and in the science itself, that we may get a breakthrough. 434 00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:46,160 As the team focused their attention on modern forensics 435 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:48,160 for the Carol Ann Stephens case, 436 00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:50,120 they're also hoping for a breakthrough 437 00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:53,920 in their troll of over 300 historical sex crimes 438 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:56,240 as part of Operation Dudley. 439 00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:00,320 DNA technology has already helped secure the conviction 440 00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:02,440 of rapist Antony Carling, 441 00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:04,920 and they're confident of a breakthrough in a case 442 00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:07,640 from 40 years ago, in the Swansea area. 443 00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:11,720 This is a nasty incident of the little girl 444 00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:17,520 who is raped, stroked, sexually assaulted 445 00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:19,480 and... 446 00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:26,280 it appears there's a realistic opportunity of semen being found 447 00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:29,360 on the victim at the time. 448 00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:32,720 -It's terrific. -Terrific, yeah. 449 00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:35,800 In particular with that offence 450 00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:40,560 of a male person attacking a girl you just dread to think 451 00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:44,320 what he's done in the last 40 years. 452 00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:49,200 -You think significant improvements? -I think so. 453 00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:52,160 -DNA in the sperm. -Yeah. 454 00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:58,000 So what we got in the archives and we go from there, really. 455 00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:07,480 Welcome to the forensic archive. 456 00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:10,160 I've managed to locate four packets of material. 457 00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:13,520 Debbie and Steve have come to the top secret 458 00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:15,600 National Forensic archive. 459 00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:20,000 Here, over 4 million items of forensic evidence 460 00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:24,240 dating back to the 1930s from police forces across the UK 461 00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:26,000 are kept in storage. 462 00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:29,920 It's a treasure trove for cold case detectives. 463 00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:34,520 On its shelves is the evidence that with today's forensic science, 464 00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:38,880 could finally hold the answers to hundreds of unsolved cases. 465 00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:43,280 What we're able to do is dig into the past. 466 00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:47,720 Back in the 70s and 80s, the procedures and processes 467 00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:49,280 were very different. 468 00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:52,120 DNA wasn't something that was thought about. 469 00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:58,080 But what the investigators at the time 470 00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:00,000 had the foresight to think about 471 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:04,840 was the fact that with the speed that forensic developments progress 472 00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:08,880 that there would be something in the future in those exhibits, 473 00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:12,480 something that we can review again and get a result from it. 474 00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:22,640 One slide reference: JN/2. 475 00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:27,760 Hopefully, with the advances in forensic science, 476 00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:31,960 a lot more cases will be solved again to bring closure to victims 477 00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:33,960 and to let perpetrators out there know 478 00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:37,040 that we're not going to let these things die down. 479 00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:40,040 We were going to use every possible investigative technique 480 00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:42,760 to identify these perpetrators to bring them justice. 481 00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:52,600 The team head back to base 482 00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:56,080 with the samples from the sexual assault on the little girl. 483 00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:00,040 Cold Case investigator James Phillips 484 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:03,880 wants to get an expert opinion on whether the 40 year old samples 485 00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:06,960 could still contain the attackers DNA. 486 00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:11,880 Cheek. 487 00:35:12,720 --> 00:35:15,120 Ear. Ear and Neck. 488 00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:19,800 We're at a stage now where DNA is just so sensitive. 489 00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:21,800 It doesn't take a great deal of contact 490 00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:24,920 for us to be able to obtain a DNA profile. 491 00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:27,840 So what they'll do is they'll soak the slides, 492 00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:29,520 remove the cover slip, 493 00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:33,360 and they'll swab the sample underneath the cover slip then 494 00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:37,040 and then the swabs from the samples will be profile for DNA. 495 00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:41,120 It's a horrific incident 496 00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:44,400 for a young girl to go through. 497 00:35:45,240 --> 00:35:48,200 Now, if it comes back with a profile 498 00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:52,360 they're be good bet that he'd be on the database. 499 00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:57,120 This case now rests with the scientists. 500 00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:00,200 As does the other investigation 501 00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:03,840 into the murder of six year old Carol Ann Stephens. 502 00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:09,320 Senior forensic adviser David Thomas 503 00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:13,760 has been looking at the 60 year old exhibits to assess their potential. 504 00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:18,120 They're hoping to find traces of DNA 505 00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:21,800 that would prove once and for all whether they're prime suspect 506 00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:25,480 travelling sweet salesman, Ronald Murray, is the killer. 507 00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:29,760 That... 508 00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:34,160 is the right shoe at the scene of Carol Ann 509 00:36:34,240 --> 00:36:37,040 which is in the water or in the stream then. 510 00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:41,040 The river may have done some damage. 511 00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:42,880 I think it has, my recollection, 512 00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:46,760 and going back on a personal note on the weekend before 513 00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:51,880 she attended Sunday school with us and they were new shoes. 514 00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:53,480 Oh, were they? 515 00:36:55,000 --> 00:37:00,760 Now a small child cardigan. This is reference: 101-2 516 00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:04,240 Correct me if I'm wrong quite sure this is more Carol Ann was wearing 517 00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:06,480 when she was abducted on Malefant Street. 518 00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:10,200 Yeah, it's a possibility if she's wearing it, his touch. 519 00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:15,800 She had to get out if she was in the car, removed from wherever 520 00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:17,280 into that culvert. 521 00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:20,160 There must have been some sort of touching around there. 522 00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:24,640 Touch DNA is, say you grabbed me on my arm 523 00:37:24,720 --> 00:37:27,520 you would leave DNA on my arm 524 00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:31,240 from sweat skin cells, maybe even some hairs. 525 00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:35,040 And then we would sample that area where we know you have touched 526 00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:39,040 to recover the DNA that you've left on the surfaces. 527 00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:44,560 Incredibly, police even preserved the confectionery 528 00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:47,960 found in Murray's car more than 60 years ago, 529 00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:51,160 in the hope that it would one day yield close. 530 00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:55,760 Two chocolates in green foil wrappers. 531 00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:59,240 Dorchestrer chocolate label by Carsons. 532 00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:01,440 Do those sweets link up at all in any way? 533 00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:03,240 Can they link at all to Carol Ann? 534 00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:05,560 There could be some on the wrapper. 535 00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:10,200 There are also dozens of Carol's belongings 536 00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:14,720 that could crucially finally provide that forensic link to Murray. 537 00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:18,600 Albeit, Murray's our strong suspect 538 00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:21,120 for a number of different investigative reasons. 539 00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:24,680 But who's to say it's not somebody else? 540 00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:28,160 Whatever's there is there. Let's go looking for it. 541 00:38:28,240 --> 00:38:30,000 Yeah. 542 00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:32,760 But generally think there is some potential here. 543 00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:37,800 While the forensic examinations get underway 544 00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:40,040 on the Carol Ann Stephens case, 545 00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:42,600 Cold Case investigator James Phillips 546 00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:44,640 has been waiting on the DNA results 547 00:38:44,720 --> 00:38:48,360 from the sexual assault on a little girl more than 40 years ago. 548 00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:51,040 It's not good news. 549 00:38:51,720 --> 00:38:54,960 The report is coming back more or less saying that... 550 00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:59,200 there's no further potential. 551 00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:07,000 However, the scientist, I'll read it out, 552 00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:10,200 and it's one of the first ones we've had where he says: 553 00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:13,800 I recommend that these slides are retained and attempt to profile 554 00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:16,080 reconsidered and perhaps three to five years 555 00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:19,000 pending any advances in DNA profiling technology. 556 00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:22,400 In particular, the extraction of DNA from slides. 557 00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:25,840 Gutted, is the word for that one. 558 00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:29,360 Then we have ups and downs, good days and bad days. 559 00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:32,880 Just got to carry on. Just got to, yeah. 560 00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:35,320 Yeah... 561 00:39:40,240 --> 00:39:43,120 As one door closes, the team are hopeful 562 00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:45,840 that senior Forensic Scientist Claire Morse 563 00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:48,640 will have better luck as they begin the work of testing 564 00:39:48,720 --> 00:39:50,840 the 60 year old evidence 565 00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:54,200 in the murder of Cardiff schoolgirl Carol Ann Stephens. 566 00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:59,280 We will recover everything that we can from her items of clothing. 567 00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:02,600 We are really looking for DNA. 568 00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:08,800 If we can find DNA from somebody that's not Carol Ann 569 00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:11,000 we need to find out who that person is. 570 00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:14,000 Could be a legitimate contact, but it could be an offender. 571 00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:18,600 So DNA from a touch or from blood or semen or saliva 572 00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:22,560 is going to be the easiest thing really for us to look at. 573 00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:28,080 It's a very difficult case. 574 00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:31,920 Carol Ann was found in a culvert. 575 00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:35,600 She was wet and had probably been in water for several days. 576 00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:41,720 The fact that she's been in water means that any DNA 577 00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:44,800 blood, semen saliva, could have been lost. 578 00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:48,080 But there's always a chance with these things, 579 00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:49,960 and that's why we keep going. 580 00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:55,640 With the forensic testing underway, 581 00:40:55,720 --> 00:40:59,200 Carol's school friend and veteran Detective Gerry Blake 582 00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:01,760 has been digging deeper into the background 583 00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:04,280 of lead suspect, Ronald Murray. 584 00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:08,640 What he's found is deeply troubling. 585 00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:12,440 His wife had a tragic death. 586 00:41:13,240 --> 00:41:17,440 And in fact, the family are concerned that he had some... 587 00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:20,800 some dealing with a with a death. 588 00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:28,120 What had happened was that 589 00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:31,360 Ronald Murray had a young child, 590 00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:35,680 and he said they would play games, turning the gas on and off. 591 00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:48,960 Murray says that the child had played the game on this mother. 592 00:41:57,320 --> 00:42:00,920 She suffocated with the gas from the gas stove. 593 00:42:06,240 --> 00:42:11,040 The officers who conducted the inquiries into that 594 00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:15,360 were clearly suspicious about the story given. 595 00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:17,520 But the verdict... 596 00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:20,560 it was an accidental death. 597 00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:36,240 Gerry's research has turned up another death certificate. 598 00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:42,320 Murray died in 1973. 599 00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:52,440 There are significant questions 600 00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:54,920 that we would have liked to ask Ronald Murray. 601 00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:57,160 Because the style of questioning at the time 602 00:42:57,240 --> 00:42:59,880 is different to what we would do now. 603 00:42:59,960 --> 00:43:03,520 That doesn't mean to say that we're going to stop our investigation. 604 00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:04,920 Whilst he is a suspect 605 00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:07,280 but from the evidence we've got in 606 00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:08,840 it might not be Murray. 607 00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:11,680 So that must be a key driver for us to carry on. 608 00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:14,560 So if it's somebody else, that person may still be alive. 609 00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:17,120 That person may still be a risk, an ongoing risk 610 00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:19,200 to the public, to young girls. 611 00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:21,640 So it's vital that we continue on inquiries. 612 00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:26,720 So we'll be putting an immediate appeal out asking for information. 613 00:43:32,720 --> 00:43:35,440 It needs to go out on a press release, 614 00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:38,920 it needs to go on the website, it needs to go on the socials. 615 00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:43,000 There may be people who for example, Mister Murray may have spoken to 616 00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:45,080 and told people about what happened 617 00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:47,320 what he did, if he is responsible. 618 00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:49,800 They might have the smallest piece of information 619 00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:52,880 but that might be significant to us because of what we know. 620 00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:54,920 Next time. 621 00:43:57,360 --> 00:44:01,400 Time catches up with a vicious rapist on operation Dudley. 622 00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:03,120 -Police. -You're under arrest. 623 00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:04,680 On suspicion of rape 624 00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:07,800 that occurred on the 17th of August 1980. 625 00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:09,240 In there. 626 00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:17,760 And a breakthrough when after 60 years 627 00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:21,680 a new witness comes forward in the Carol Ann Stephens case. 628 00:44:22,720 --> 00:44:25,920 The main memory is I remember the car door being opened 629 00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:29,160 and there was a white bag of sweets on the car seat. 630 00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:33,400 He also suggested that there was a possibility 631 00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:38,360 that he may identify this man if he saw a photograph. 632 00:44:40,240 --> 00:44:43,120 Are you able to identify any person on the film? 633 00:44:45,040 --> 00:44:46,640 Yes. 634 00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:51,000 Subtitles: Amaury Pinos plint.com 53782

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