All language subtitles for Mr.Bates vs. the Post Office - S01E02.srt - eng(2)

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These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated: 1 00:00:09,532 --> 00:00:12,452 (INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC) 2 00:00:18,812 --> 00:00:20,452 I just think you made a mistake, Sam. 3 00:00:23,812 --> 00:00:25,252 I know but they said if I pleaded guilty 4 00:00:25,372 --> 00:00:26,412 I could have the shop back. 5 00:00:26,532 --> 00:00:27,932 How is that ever gonna work? 6 00:00:29,092 --> 00:00:30,972 You'll be a convicted criminal. 7 00:00:34,012 --> 00:00:34,972 Look! 8 00:00:35,092 --> 00:00:36,212 I'm your husband 9 00:00:36,332 --> 00:00:38,892 and I have to read about this in the newspaper! 10 00:00:39,012 --> 00:00:41,052 I was on my own in the interview. 11 00:00:41,172 --> 00:00:42,572 And I thought I was doing the right thing. 12 00:00:42,692 --> 00:00:43,972 Jas, please! 13 00:00:44,092 --> 00:00:45,972 You're an innocent woman! 14 00:00:46,092 --> 00:00:49,012 You should have pleaded not guilty, like we agreed. 15 00:00:49,132 --> 00:00:52,052 Come on, we're gonna be late. They'll have started without us. 16 00:01:10,172 --> 00:01:11,412 It was unbelievable. 17 00:01:12,692 --> 00:01:14,652 The lowest day of my life. 18 00:01:16,212 --> 00:01:17,652 Um, hi. 19 00:01:17,772 --> 00:01:22,172 Er, sorry we're late, um, we got a bit lost. 20 00:01:22,292 --> 00:01:24,172 Sorry. 21 00:01:24,292 --> 00:01:25,932 Are you... are you... Is this... 22 00:01:26,052 --> 00:01:28,012 We're all former subpostmasters. 23 00:01:28,132 --> 00:01:30,172 Come in, it's OK. 24 00:01:30,292 --> 00:01:33,012 Please, find a seat. 25 00:01:34,372 --> 00:01:37,172 Er, er, I'm Jas Singh. 26 00:01:37,292 --> 00:01:39,732 I'm Sam from Walsall. Yeah, Walsall. 27 00:01:39,852 --> 00:01:43,172 Well, we're all sharing our stories. 28 00:01:45,932 --> 00:01:48,532 I don't know if you want to... Go on, Sam. Go on. 29 00:01:51,092 --> 00:01:52,492 I had no problems 30 00:01:52,612 --> 00:01:54,412 till they sent us a new Horizon PIN pad. 31 00:01:56,012 --> 00:01:57,972 They just won't have it 32 00:01:58,092 --> 00:01:59,612 that there's something wrong with the thing. 33 00:02:00,852 --> 00:02:02,692 They say I'm piggybacking. 34 00:02:02,812 --> 00:02:04,812 Going into the till to pay out a pension with one hand 35 00:02:04,932 --> 00:02:06,732 and paying myself with the other. 36 00:02:06,852 --> 00:02:08,812 I'm guessing they also said 37 00:02:08,932 --> 00:02:11,012 you were the only ones having these problems? 38 00:02:11,132 --> 00:02:13,132 Yeah, and I'm guessing they said the same to everyone else 39 00:02:13,252 --> 00:02:14,172 in this room, right? 40 00:02:14,292 --> 00:02:16,052 I'm such a fool I believed them! 41 00:02:16,172 --> 00:02:17,772 I believed them 42 00:02:17,892 --> 00:02:20,292 when they said, just confess you took that 5,000 pounds, Sam, 43 00:02:20,412 --> 00:02:21,892 and you'll be back in your shop tomorrow. 44 00:02:22,012 --> 00:02:23,412 You shouldn't have done that! 45 00:02:23,532 --> 00:02:26,052 It was...it was the new PIN pad, it wasn't your fault. 46 00:02:26,172 --> 00:02:27,972 It...it wasn't her fault. 47 00:02:28,092 --> 00:02:31,132 Actually, I pleaded guilty too. 48 00:02:32,372 --> 00:02:35,132 So, did I. What, you did? 49 00:02:36,412 --> 00:02:37,332 I can't believe it. 50 00:02:37,452 --> 00:02:40,532 I...I thought we were on our own, you know? 51 00:02:40,652 --> 00:02:42,452 Not anymore. 52 00:02:42,572 --> 00:02:43,972 I'm a mother. 53 00:02:44,092 --> 00:02:45,412 I don't wanna go to prison. 54 00:02:45,532 --> 00:02:47,652 No, we're changing your plea. 55 00:02:47,772 --> 00:02:49,452 OK? You're not guilty. 56 00:02:49,572 --> 00:02:51,732 And this time I am coming to court with you. 57 00:02:51,852 --> 00:02:55,252 Hey, now if you're thinking of going to court... 58 00:02:56,892 --> 00:02:57,892 just be careful. 59 00:02:59,012 --> 00:03:03,572 Well, there are people here who've done time. 60 00:03:03,692 --> 00:03:08,252 We...we've all lost our businesses and our savings. 61 00:03:09,412 --> 00:03:13,092 The question is what are we going to do about it? 62 00:03:14,812 --> 00:03:16,652 (INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC) 63 00:03:16,772 --> 00:03:18,732 MPs. Neither use nor ornament. 64 00:03:18,852 --> 00:03:22,092 Mum, stop it! Be nice. 65 00:03:22,212 --> 00:03:24,052 At least he's taken the trouble to turn up. 66 00:03:27,772 --> 00:03:30,252 Um, Mrs Hamilton? That's me! 67 00:03:30,372 --> 00:03:31,372 James Arbuthnot. 68 00:03:31,492 --> 00:03:33,572 Thank you for coming. My pleasure. 69 00:03:33,692 --> 00:03:35,492 Do come in. Jo's mum. 70 00:03:35,612 --> 00:03:36,612 Hello. 71 00:03:38,092 --> 00:03:39,652 So, one way or another, 72 00:03:39,772 --> 00:03:42,412 we're all fighting back every way we can. 73 00:03:42,532 --> 00:03:44,572 We're even thinking about suing the Post Office. 74 00:03:44,692 --> 00:03:47,092 I'd like to see you try with no money! 75 00:03:47,212 --> 00:03:48,972 Well, it's a good job talking to your MP 76 00:03:49,092 --> 00:03:50,692 costs absolutely nothing! 77 00:03:50,812 --> 00:03:51,892 Is this homemade? 78 00:03:52,012 --> 00:03:53,812 Well, it looks delicious. Thank you, I will. 79 00:03:55,292 --> 00:03:59,092 We thought, maybe, you could talk to the government or something? 80 00:03:59,212 --> 00:04:00,332 Yes, indeed! 81 00:04:01,812 --> 00:04:04,252 There are two other cases in my constituency alone. 82 00:04:04,372 --> 00:04:05,972 Wow. Really? 83 00:04:06,092 --> 00:04:07,132 It's very odd, isn't it? 84 00:04:07,252 --> 00:04:10,732 I mean, the Post Office is a national institution. 85 00:04:10,852 --> 00:04:13,332 You'd think you could trust them to listen to their own people. 86 00:04:13,452 --> 00:04:16,732 Personally, Mr Arbuthnot... James, please. 87 00:04:16,852 --> 00:04:19,332 ..I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them. 88 00:04:21,692 --> 00:04:24,812 I'm going to ask around the House, 89 00:04:24,932 --> 00:04:27,692 see how many Members are hearing similar stories. 90 00:04:27,812 --> 00:04:29,692 Make an approach to Post Office management 91 00:04:29,812 --> 00:04:31,732 at the highest level. 92 00:04:31,852 --> 00:04:34,852 I think I feel a campaign coming on! 93 00:04:41,092 --> 00:04:42,092 Oh, that's lovely. 94 00:04:46,092 --> 00:04:47,612 And so my client Mrs Kaur 95 00:04:47,732 --> 00:04:50,772 seeks permission to change her plea to not guilty. 96 00:04:50,892 --> 00:04:53,252 This is because she had no solicitor with her 97 00:04:53,372 --> 00:04:55,572 during her interview under caution. 98 00:04:55,692 --> 00:04:57,892 And because there is also a technical issue, 99 00:04:58,012 --> 00:05:00,892 which you may consider requires expert evidence, 100 00:05:01,012 --> 00:05:03,612 concerning a PIN pad. 101 00:05:03,732 --> 00:05:05,052 I can't see anything here. 102 00:05:05,172 --> 00:05:07,772 Her PIN pad was faulty! Quiet, please! 103 00:05:10,012 --> 00:05:13,372 Very well, Mrs Kaur, I vacate your plea. 104 00:05:13,492 --> 00:05:14,652 How do you now plead? 105 00:05:18,412 --> 00:05:19,412 Not guilty. 106 00:05:25,532 --> 00:05:26,532 (SNIFFLES) 107 00:05:33,292 --> 00:05:34,452 Is that him? 108 00:05:34,572 --> 00:05:36,652 The so-called trade unionist. 109 00:05:36,772 --> 00:05:39,492 He's got a bloody nerve. Federation man. 110 00:05:39,612 --> 00:05:42,012 A Federation man who calls out of nowhere. 111 00:05:43,372 --> 00:05:44,612 How do we know we can trust him? 112 00:05:47,212 --> 00:05:48,212 We don't. 113 00:05:52,812 --> 00:05:54,292 Michael. Hi, Alan. 114 00:05:55,692 --> 00:05:57,732 You found us then? Yeah. 115 00:05:57,852 --> 00:05:59,292 I've never even heard of Fenny Compton. 116 00:06:03,972 --> 00:06:05,972 Alright, everyone, shall we make a start? 117 00:06:07,092 --> 00:06:09,332 Shall we make a start? Thanks. 118 00:06:10,492 --> 00:06:11,772 Right. 119 00:06:11,892 --> 00:06:15,332 So, welcome to the second meeting 120 00:06:15,452 --> 00:06:18,652 of the Justice for Subpostmasters Alliance. 121 00:06:18,772 --> 00:06:22,212 Now, before we get on to our campaign update, 122 00:06:22,332 --> 00:06:26,132 er, we have a guest who'd like permission to speak. 123 00:06:29,412 --> 00:06:33,172 This is Michael Rudkin, friends, 124 00:06:33,292 --> 00:06:34,652 an Executive Officer 125 00:06:34,772 --> 00:06:36,812 of the National Federation for Subpostmasters. 126 00:06:38,452 --> 00:06:39,772 Not anymore. The Federation? 127 00:06:39,892 --> 00:06:42,052 You know that the Federation sent me back my membership fee, 128 00:06:42,172 --> 00:06:43,172 said they wouldn't represent me. 129 00:06:43,292 --> 00:06:45,852 They told me to get a good criminal lawyer, 130 00:06:45,972 --> 00:06:47,292 and that was the last I heard of them. 131 00:06:47,412 --> 00:06:48,892 Our so-called union 132 00:06:49,012 --> 00:06:51,572 has been in bed with the Post Office for years! 133 00:06:51,692 --> 00:06:53,132 I can either leave by the way I came in 134 00:06:53,252 --> 00:06:54,252 or I can tell you my story! 135 00:06:55,412 --> 00:06:56,412 Up to you, pal. 136 00:06:58,652 --> 00:07:00,372 You know, you think you're the little guys 137 00:07:00,492 --> 00:07:03,212 facing up to one powerful enemy? 138 00:07:03,332 --> 00:07:04,292 You're wrong. 139 00:07:06,052 --> 00:07:07,612 Post Office don't make the computers, do they? 140 00:07:09,252 --> 00:07:11,612 You know, they don't design the kit, 141 00:07:11,732 --> 00:07:14,532 they don't write the software, they don't run the network. 142 00:07:16,532 --> 00:07:20,572 That's Fujitsu, a multinational corporation. 143 00:07:20,692 --> 00:07:22,012 Headquarters in Bracknell. 144 00:07:23,652 --> 00:07:27,012 I've been there, I've seen what they can do. 145 00:07:27,132 --> 00:07:30,012 Two years ago, I got myself an invitation to Fujitsu 146 00:07:30,132 --> 00:07:31,092 to sort out the issue 147 00:07:31,212 --> 00:07:32,492 with the foreign exchange stock control 148 00:07:32,612 --> 00:07:33,812 that we were all having problems with. 149 00:07:35,092 --> 00:07:37,292 Hiya, Mike Rudkin to see George Delph. 150 00:07:38,532 --> 00:07:39,532 Thanks, mate. 151 00:07:40,732 --> 00:07:43,012 19th of August 2008. 152 00:07:45,452 --> 00:07:47,492 Cheers. Thanks, mate. 153 00:07:47,612 --> 00:07:48,972 Mr Rudkin? 154 00:07:49,092 --> 00:07:50,452 George Delph. Hi. 155 00:07:50,572 --> 00:07:52,412 Hi. It's good to meet you. And you. 156 00:07:52,532 --> 00:07:54,412 Welcome to Fujitsu. Cheers. 157 00:07:55,572 --> 00:07:56,652 If you'd like to follow me? 158 00:07:59,492 --> 00:08:01,732 Horizon is the largest IT system in Europe, 159 00:08:01,852 --> 00:08:03,332 we're very proud of that. 160 00:08:03,452 --> 00:08:04,892 Outside the military, that is. 161 00:08:07,052 --> 00:08:09,572 It cost a billion pounds. 162 00:08:09,692 --> 00:08:12,932 We rolled out 40,000 terminals to your members. 163 00:08:13,052 --> 00:08:13,972 So, this accounts 164 00:08:14,092 --> 00:08:15,492 for all the James Bond stuff, does it? 165 00:08:18,572 --> 00:08:21,172 All I'm expecting is they'll give me a bit of training I can pass on. 166 00:08:23,492 --> 00:08:25,052 Oh, right. 167 00:08:25,172 --> 00:08:26,612 State of the art everything? 168 00:08:27,732 --> 00:08:29,612 That must be why a lot of my members have been complaining 169 00:08:29,732 --> 00:08:32,732 about your rubbish foreign exchange stock control. 170 00:08:32,852 --> 00:08:34,332 We can help! 171 00:08:34,452 --> 00:08:36,012 A lot of my members have been losing money. 172 00:08:36,132 --> 00:08:38,452 Oh, the bottom line! Me included. 173 00:08:40,692 --> 00:08:43,292 Meet your friendly Covert Operations Team. 174 00:08:44,652 --> 00:08:45,612 I get in there 175 00:08:45,732 --> 00:08:50,132 and this guy sits me down at a Horizon terminal. 176 00:08:50,252 --> 00:08:51,732 Alright, so, easiest way to help 177 00:08:51,852 --> 00:08:52,772 is if I just show you 178 00:08:52,892 --> 00:08:55,492 how to adjust your stock control manually. 179 00:08:55,612 --> 00:08:59,532 And I said to him, is this live? 180 00:08:59,652 --> 00:09:01,492 Sure. Look at the clock. 181 00:09:03,692 --> 00:09:08,052 So, if I start by adjusting this from sterling to Euros... 182 00:09:08,172 --> 00:09:10,212 And I said to him, 183 00:09:10,332 --> 00:09:13,772 "You're inside some subpostmaster's Horizon. 184 00:09:13,892 --> 00:09:15,532 And he doesn't know?" 185 00:09:15,652 --> 00:09:16,652 He said "Yeah. 186 00:09:18,092 --> 00:09:19,252 Yeah, I am". 187 00:09:22,612 --> 00:09:24,252 How else am I gonna show you how to do this? 188 00:09:25,652 --> 00:09:27,532 And then, right in front of my eyes, 189 00:09:27,652 --> 00:09:30,692 he starts changing the subpostmaster's figures. 190 00:09:30,812 --> 00:09:34,972 Excuse me, I've been telling my members for years, 191 00:09:35,092 --> 00:09:37,172 no-one else has access to their branch accounts. 192 00:09:38,692 --> 00:09:41,492 Er, OK, well, um, I'd better put the figures 193 00:09:41,612 --> 00:09:43,772 back the way they were then or they won't balance tonight. 194 00:09:57,252 --> 00:09:58,972 Ladies and gentlemen, you know what this means. 195 00:10:00,332 --> 00:10:02,212 It means they can sneak in behind your back, 196 00:10:02,332 --> 00:10:04,972 change your figures, bugger off, and leave with no trace. 197 00:10:08,052 --> 00:10:09,612 It's remote access. 198 00:10:09,732 --> 00:10:11,892 Well, that makes sense. 199 00:10:12,012 --> 00:10:13,812 It's how they send updates and bug fixes. 200 00:10:13,932 --> 00:10:14,892 No, no, no. 201 00:10:15,012 --> 00:10:17,572 The helpline, they said that... they said that was impossible. 202 00:10:17,692 --> 00:10:19,412 They said that the branch accounts were totally secure, 203 00:10:19,532 --> 00:10:20,652 that's what they told me. 204 00:10:20,772 --> 00:10:21,772 They lied. 205 00:10:23,612 --> 00:10:26,132 But if they're getting into our accounts 206 00:10:26,252 --> 00:10:27,692 and messing about in there... 207 00:10:27,812 --> 00:10:29,292 Then it's a bit rich for them to claim 208 00:10:29,412 --> 00:10:32,132 that we have 100% responsibility when money goes missing. 209 00:10:32,252 --> 00:10:33,732 Exactly! Yeah. 210 00:10:35,012 --> 00:10:37,172 So, I drive home from Fujitsu. 211 00:10:39,212 --> 00:10:42,972 The next morning, I wake up 212 00:10:43,092 --> 00:10:47,052 and my wife is stood at the foot of our bed 213 00:10:47,172 --> 00:10:51,012 and there's an auditor beside her. 214 00:10:54,172 --> 00:10:59,372 Your post office is now 44,000 pounds in deficit, 215 00:10:59,492 --> 00:11:00,492 says he. 216 00:11:03,572 --> 00:11:04,532 Coincidence? 217 00:11:05,892 --> 00:11:06,852 Revenge? 218 00:11:06,972 --> 00:11:08,412 My wife ran the post office 219 00:11:08,532 --> 00:11:10,572 when I was away on Federation business, 220 00:11:10,692 --> 00:11:13,012 so although I was the subpostmaster... 221 00:11:15,172 --> 00:11:16,172 my poor wife... 222 00:11:19,052 --> 00:11:20,292 is now a convicted criminal. 223 00:11:24,932 --> 00:11:25,932 You're welcome. 224 00:11:34,932 --> 00:11:35,932 Wait! 225 00:11:37,532 --> 00:11:39,132 Mr Rudkin. Thank you. 226 00:11:40,852 --> 00:11:42,492 Thank you. 227 00:11:42,612 --> 00:11:43,732 Yeah, it won't do any good. 228 00:11:59,852 --> 00:12:00,852 So, they punished him. 229 00:12:03,212 --> 00:12:05,972 They punished him for standing up to them. 230 00:12:07,332 --> 00:12:08,852 It's what they did to me. 231 00:12:08,972 --> 00:12:10,572 They...they knew I had to fight them, 232 00:12:10,692 --> 00:12:13,052 but they knew I didn't stand a chance. 233 00:12:13,172 --> 00:12:15,292 They just did it to teach me a lesson. 234 00:12:15,412 --> 00:12:18,012 To teach everyone in this room a lesson. 235 00:12:18,132 --> 00:12:19,172 That's what we're up against. 236 00:12:19,292 --> 00:12:20,972 That is what we're up against! 237 00:12:31,500 --> 00:12:33,541 The Post Office are still investigating 238 00:12:33,661 --> 00:12:35,662 so it's gonna take a bit longer 239 00:12:35,782 --> 00:12:38,864 than we thought as it's now 36 charges. 240 00:12:38,984 --> 00:12:40,985 How many? 36 charges. 241 00:12:41,105 --> 00:12:43,306 No! No, no, that's totally wrong. 242 00:12:43,426 --> 00:12:45,147 I've got the indictment right here, Jas. 243 00:12:45,267 --> 00:12:47,468 It's definitely now 36 charges. 244 00:12:47,588 --> 00:12:50,309 But it was... it was 19! 245 00:12:50,429 --> 00:12:51,830 Where have all these new ones come from? 246 00:12:53,031 --> 00:12:54,351 Sam. 247 00:12:54,471 --> 00:12:56,072 I don't know. I don't remember. 248 00:12:57,473 --> 00:13:00,114 And what about this? Her shortfall? 249 00:13:00,234 --> 00:13:02,835 It's now 11,000. That's...that's more than doubled! 250 00:13:02,955 --> 00:13:05,757 You're selling everyone stamps with a picture of the Queen on them. 251 00:13:05,877 --> 00:13:07,117 And we love the Queen, don't we? 252 00:13:09,639 --> 00:13:10,559 Is she alright? 253 00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:13,280 Yeah, yeah, it's just all these delays, 254 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:15,281 they're doing both our heads in. 255 00:13:17,242 --> 00:13:20,938 Jas, I think we should get a medical report. 256 00:13:21,058 --> 00:13:24,300 When cases go on and on like this, it can be hard for the defendant. 257 00:13:26,741 --> 00:13:27,742 She's fine. 258 00:13:34,345 --> 00:13:36,026 I'll just go and see if they're ready for us. 259 00:13:37,706 --> 00:13:40,628 (INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC) 260 00:13:45,230 --> 00:13:46,351 Everyone's eyes are on me. 261 00:13:50,473 --> 00:13:51,473 It's OK. 262 00:13:55,475 --> 00:13:56,796 (LINE TRILLS) 263 00:14:06,841 --> 00:14:07,801 Sam, can you get the phone? 264 00:14:07,921 --> 00:14:08,922 (PHONE RINGS) 265 00:14:12,483 --> 00:14:15,605 Hello? Oh! It's Jo. 266 00:14:15,725 --> 00:14:17,726 Gosh, you had me worried there. 267 00:14:17,846 --> 00:14:20,007 I'm just checking in on you. Are you OK? 268 00:14:22,288 --> 00:14:23,329 I'm up and down. 269 00:14:24,649 --> 00:14:26,130 Are you getting out at all? 270 00:14:27,331 --> 00:14:28,971 Oh, I can't go out. 271 00:14:29,092 --> 00:14:31,613 Not to the gurdwara and not even to the supermarket. 272 00:14:33,414 --> 00:14:34,414 I see people I know, 273 00:14:34,534 --> 00:14:36,415 and sometimes they look surprised to see me, 274 00:14:36,535 --> 00:14:37,536 and I wonder... 275 00:14:39,056 --> 00:14:41,378 do they think I've gone to prison already. 276 00:14:41,498 --> 00:14:42,498 Oh, Sam. 277 00:14:43,819 --> 00:14:47,501 If I just had the money for a stupid train ticket... 278 00:14:47,621 --> 00:14:49,942 I wouldn't be much fun for you, Jo. 279 00:14:50,062 --> 00:14:51,342 Oh, god! 280 00:14:51,462 --> 00:14:52,423 Sam? What Is It? 281 00:14:53,784 --> 00:14:55,464 It's OK...it's OK. I'm alright, Jo. 282 00:14:56,625 --> 00:14:57,585 It's just the postman. 283 00:15:02,228 --> 00:15:07,510 Every time the door goes I think it's them come to get me. 284 00:15:07,630 --> 00:15:08,631 Oh... 285 00:15:09,791 --> 00:15:11,432 Oh, you poor thing. 286 00:15:17,635 --> 00:15:19,436 I had no idea this was happening to other people. 287 00:15:19,556 --> 00:15:21,157 I thought I was the only one. 288 00:15:21,277 --> 00:15:22,918 There were nights I was just sobbing. 289 00:15:23,038 --> 00:15:25,919 I didn't know what to do, how to get out of this mess. 290 00:15:26,039 --> 00:15:28,000 It sounds like it was very traumatic for you. 291 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:30,121 Well, it's not just me that it's traumatic for. 292 00:15:30,241 --> 00:15:32,042 I just think that the Post Office 293 00:15:32,162 --> 00:15:33,683 needs to investigate this. 294 00:15:33,803 --> 00:15:36,164 There's just got to be something else going on 295 00:15:36,284 --> 00:15:39,366 because it can't be happening to this many people. 296 00:15:39,486 --> 00:15:41,687 Thank you. Jo was great! 297 00:15:41,807 --> 00:15:43,168 She's a natural! (CHUCKLES) 298 00:15:43,288 --> 00:15:45,489 Yeah, but who's listening? 299 00:15:45,609 --> 00:15:46,569 So, Arbuthnot, how concerned are you 300 00:15:46,689 --> 00:15:48,490 about these allegations against the Post Office? 301 00:15:48,610 --> 00:15:50,852 I'm very concerned about this. 302 00:15:50,972 --> 00:15:52,772 Cases seem to be cropping up all over the country. 303 00:15:52,893 --> 00:15:55,134 Who knew a Tory MP could be so nice! 304 00:15:55,254 --> 00:15:58,015 The Post Office have been I think pretty hardnosed 305 00:15:58,135 --> 00:15:59,616 in the way they've taken the cases to court... 306 00:15:59,736 --> 00:16:03,538 Trouble is, nobody watches local news. 307 00:16:03,658 --> 00:16:05,699 ..and I think their bosses need to think again 308 00:16:05,819 --> 00:16:07,059 and be more sympathetic. 309 00:16:07,180 --> 00:16:08,460 (PHONES RINGING) 310 00:16:08,580 --> 00:16:11,502 (TENSE MUSIC) 311 00:16:30,711 --> 00:16:33,632 (MURMURS) 312 00:16:35,794 --> 00:16:40,836 There are a tiny number of ex-subpostmasters 313 00:16:40,956 --> 00:16:43,037 who appear to be making distinct allegations 314 00:16:43,157 --> 00:16:46,039 with respect to the operation of the Horizon system. 315 00:16:46,159 --> 00:16:49,520 But in two of the cases the individuals have in the past 316 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:51,281 pleaded guilty to false accounting. 317 00:16:52,602 --> 00:16:54,363 I have written back to the Member of Parliament 318 00:16:54,483 --> 00:16:56,924 making clear that Post Office Ltd 319 00:16:57,044 --> 00:17:00,045 does not accept any of the allegations 320 00:17:00,165 --> 00:17:01,326 that are being made 321 00:17:01,446 --> 00:17:03,847 and will robustly defend its position 322 00:17:03,967 --> 00:17:06,969 if any civil action is mounted against it. 323 00:17:10,010 --> 00:17:11,891 Freedom of Information 324 00:17:12,011 --> 00:17:13,252 just when you think you've cracked it, 325 00:17:13,372 --> 00:17:16,093 they come up with a new trick to keep us in the dark! 326 00:17:16,213 --> 00:17:17,134 Listen to this. 327 00:17:17,254 --> 00:17:21,136 You're only allowed a question, to ask a question, 328 00:17:21,256 --> 00:17:25,218 that will take one person less than 18 hours to research. 329 00:17:25,338 --> 00:17:26,939 I mean, what? 330 00:17:29,300 --> 00:17:31,701 What do you think? Hey? 331 00:17:35,863 --> 00:17:37,384 Trying to have a life here, Alan. 332 00:17:49,670 --> 00:17:52,911 I just want to be able to take you 333 00:17:53,031 --> 00:17:55,793 on holiday again, Suzanne. 334 00:17:55,913 --> 00:18:01,676 You know, proper holiday abroad, not just camping. 335 00:18:03,997 --> 00:18:08,239 And there's still half of Snowdonia waiting to be climbed. 336 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:15,322 A, the Post Office has taken all our money. 337 00:18:16,963 --> 00:18:20,605 B, my knees are way too old for Snowdonia. 338 00:18:22,246 --> 00:18:25,607 And C, you can't possibly go on holiday, 339 00:18:25,727 --> 00:18:28,769 you're too busy campaigning morning noon and night. 340 00:18:31,250 --> 00:18:33,491 This is all taking too long. 341 00:18:39,769 --> 00:18:42,688 (WOMAN SPEAKS INDISTINCTLY ON TV) 342 00:18:53,245 --> 00:18:56,244 Hiya, are you OK? 343 00:18:56,364 --> 00:18:57,364 Sorry, I'm late. 344 00:19:02,083 --> 00:19:03,962 Got held up, Sam. 345 00:19:04,082 --> 00:19:05,082 Dev's gone to... 346 00:19:07,521 --> 00:19:08,561 It's OK. Sam? 347 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:11,200 Sam? What...what have you... 348 00:19:13,279 --> 00:19:14,279 Sam! 349 00:19:16,039 --> 00:19:17,398 It's OK. It's OK. Sam, what have you done? 350 00:19:17,518 --> 00:19:18,758 Why have you done this? Uh? 351 00:19:18,878 --> 00:19:20,117 It's not fair... 352 00:19:20,237 --> 00:19:21,397 Sam, look at me! What... 353 00:19:22,717 --> 00:19:23,956 I had to do something. 354 00:19:24,076 --> 00:19:25,476 999 emergency, which service do you require? 355 00:19:25,596 --> 00:19:27,036 Yeah, I need an ambulance please! 356 00:19:27,155 --> 00:19:32,354 It's 45 Falfield Road, Walsall WS2 9WB. 357 00:19:32,474 --> 00:19:33,874 B for bravo. 358 00:19:44,551 --> 00:19:47,590 I don't want to do it. They're here to help you. 359 00:19:47,710 --> 00:19:48,629 Shh. 360 00:19:48,749 --> 00:19:50,229 I tried everything, Jas! 361 00:19:50,349 --> 00:19:51,829 I know, I know. I tried everything! 362 00:19:51,949 --> 00:19:53,188 I know. I worked really... 363 00:19:53,308 --> 00:19:54,348 It's OK, I'm here. 364 00:19:55,987 --> 00:19:57,787 Hey, can you stop staring at us! 365 00:19:57,907 --> 00:19:59,187 Just mind your own business! 366 00:20:01,586 --> 00:20:03,745 Sam, come on. It's OK, Sam. 367 00:20:05,705 --> 00:20:06,904 What's the next one? 368 00:20:07,024 --> 00:20:08,784 Er, it's Candy. Candy. 369 00:20:08,904 --> 00:20:10,063 OK, see if you can find it. 370 00:20:11,583 --> 00:20:12,983 He's doing well, yeah. 371 00:20:13,103 --> 00:20:15,782 He'll be doing Spelling Bee soon. (CHUCKLES) 372 00:20:15,902 --> 00:20:17,141 Hey? 373 00:20:17,261 --> 00:20:18,541 (DOOR KNOCKING) 374 00:20:20,261 --> 00:20:22,700 Hello. Mr Singh? 375 00:20:22,820 --> 00:20:23,780 Yeah, yeah. 376 00:20:23,900 --> 00:20:25,419 Can I have a word? 377 00:20:25,539 --> 00:20:29,058 Yeah, um, two minutes and then burgers, OK? 378 00:20:34,097 --> 00:20:35,736 Hey, how are you doing? 379 00:20:35,856 --> 00:20:38,016 I want to stress, she'll be sedated. 380 00:20:38,136 --> 00:20:39,495 She won't feel anything. 381 00:20:39,615 --> 00:20:41,615 ECT had a lot of bad press at one point 382 00:20:41,735 --> 00:20:44,214 but we continue to find it very useful 383 00:20:44,334 --> 00:20:48,453 in giving relief to patients as severely depressed as Saman. 384 00:20:50,772 --> 00:20:53,211 And nothing else we've tried has worked, so... 385 00:20:56,650 --> 00:20:58,930 Just don't go home and google it, Mr Singh. 386 00:21:03,209 --> 00:21:04,808 We'll talk more later. Yeah. 387 00:21:11,326 --> 00:21:14,245 (PENSIVE MUSIC) 388 00:21:18,764 --> 00:21:20,604 Like you're not going to google it! 389 00:21:20,724 --> 00:21:22,483 I know! It's mad. 390 00:21:24,243 --> 00:21:25,682 But you know the worst thing, Jo? 391 00:21:28,681 --> 00:21:31,321 If I'd have let her carry on pleading guilty 392 00:21:31,441 --> 00:21:33,720 like she wanted to in the first place... 393 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:37,959 Alright, yeah, she might have gone to prison but... 394 00:21:40,238 --> 00:21:41,598 she'd be out by now. 395 00:21:41,718 --> 00:21:43,317 Oh, Jas... 396 00:21:44,597 --> 00:21:45,957 My boy would have a mother. 397 00:21:49,356 --> 00:21:50,595 And Sam would be free. 398 00:21:56,674 --> 00:21:57,633 Treat. 399 00:21:57,753 --> 00:22:00,672 (INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC) 400 00:22:21,667 --> 00:22:23,546 The problem is relatively very small. 401 00:22:23,666 --> 00:22:25,466 Very few complaints. 402 00:22:25,585 --> 00:22:29,144 But this is a very serious matter for the Post Office 403 00:22:29,264 --> 00:22:31,224 whose business rests on our reputation 404 00:22:31,344 --> 00:22:32,943 for being trustworthy. 405 00:22:33,063 --> 00:22:35,503 Well, we all represent constituents 406 00:22:35,623 --> 00:22:39,342 who tell us that your helpline is of little value, 407 00:22:39,462 --> 00:22:42,461 that the training you offer is minimal. 408 00:22:42,581 --> 00:22:45,420 Angela is our Head of Network Services. 409 00:22:45,540 --> 00:22:46,780 Thank you. Um... 410 00:22:48,099 --> 00:22:51,018 Well, the helpline and support are there. 411 00:22:51,138 --> 00:22:53,818 Now, whether the staff take it up or not, 412 00:22:53,938 --> 00:22:55,817 that...that's another matter. 413 00:22:55,937 --> 00:22:58,336 Mrs Vennells, is the Post Office saying 414 00:22:58,456 --> 00:23:02,295 that Horizon is 100% foolproof? 415 00:23:02,415 --> 00:23:05,814 Because that would make it the first perfect software system 416 00:23:05,934 --> 00:23:07,334 ever implemented by government. 417 00:23:08,533 --> 00:23:10,773 The system is robust. 418 00:23:10,893 --> 00:23:13,252 Gentlemen, we have nothing to hide. 419 00:23:13,372 --> 00:23:17,171 Indeed, we're ready to mount and fund an independent review. 420 00:23:18,851 --> 00:23:19,850 Oh, that's marvellous! 421 00:23:19,970 --> 00:23:21,410 And I'm sure Mr Bates 422 00:23:21,530 --> 00:23:23,609 and the Justice for Subpostermasters Alliance 423 00:23:23,729 --> 00:23:25,249 will be thrilled to get involved with that. 424 00:23:27,688 --> 00:23:30,607 (TENSE MUSIC) 425 00:23:38,805 --> 00:23:40,404 Bet you've missed me, Susan. 426 00:23:40,524 --> 00:23:42,844 How is life in the sleepy old Post Office? 427 00:23:42,964 --> 00:23:45,123 Sleepy? I wish. 428 00:23:45,243 --> 00:23:47,363 High finance misses you, kid! 429 00:23:47,483 --> 00:23:49,762 I'm a proud public servant now. 430 00:23:49,882 --> 00:23:53,281 Well, I'll wager it's not half as much fun as your old life, 431 00:23:53,401 --> 00:23:56,400 chasing down villains and fraudsters with me. 432 00:23:57,640 --> 00:23:58,639 Susan? 433 00:24:00,679 --> 00:24:02,358 Is that what we're doing here? 434 00:24:02,478 --> 00:24:04,478 I don't know. That's why I hired you. 435 00:24:09,236 --> 00:24:10,196 Ah. 436 00:24:10,316 --> 00:24:12,795 Ah, Angela Van Den Bogerd is our Head of Network Services. 437 00:24:12,915 --> 00:24:14,875 Bob Rutherford from Second Sight. 438 00:24:14,995 --> 00:24:17,714 Angela, nice to meet you. Here to help. 439 00:24:19,314 --> 00:24:21,873 We've pulled a dozen files for you to look at. 440 00:24:21,993 --> 00:24:24,112 It's all the cases the MPs have been pushing. 441 00:24:24,232 --> 00:24:26,752 Anything else you want though, we can provide. 442 00:24:26,871 --> 00:24:28,471 Accounts, procedures, backgrounds. 443 00:24:28,591 --> 00:24:29,591 I'll draw up a list. 444 00:24:30,990 --> 00:24:33,470 And I'd like to visit Fujitsu in Bracknell. 445 00:24:34,629 --> 00:24:36,509 No problem. 446 00:24:36,629 --> 00:24:38,788 Oh... are...are you not staying? 447 00:24:38,908 --> 00:24:40,388 Knowing you of old, Bob, 448 00:24:40,508 --> 00:24:42,427 I imagine you're itching to get on the road. 449 00:24:43,547 --> 00:24:44,587 Thank you, all. 450 00:24:46,546 --> 00:24:49,465 Alan, you can't go and meet him on your own 451 00:24:49,585 --> 00:24:52,304 because how will you know what to ask this investigator? 452 00:24:52,424 --> 00:24:54,064 And because she's my neighbour 453 00:24:54,184 --> 00:24:56,743 and she's really nice and she wants to help. 454 00:24:56,863 --> 00:24:58,463 Kay Linnell. 455 00:24:58,583 --> 00:25:01,062 Past master and liveryman. 456 00:25:01,182 --> 00:25:03,821 Kay Linnell, forensic accountant! 457 00:25:03,941 --> 00:25:06,580 Alan, bite her hand off! 458 00:25:06,700 --> 00:25:07,700 Alan? 459 00:25:10,219 --> 00:25:11,299 Alan Bates? 460 00:25:14,218 --> 00:25:15,178 Kay Linnell. 461 00:25:15,298 --> 00:25:16,378 Past Master and Liveryman 462 00:25:16,498 --> 00:25:18,977 of the Worshipful Company of Arbitrators. 463 00:25:19,097 --> 00:25:20,017 You've been looking me up! 464 00:25:20,137 --> 00:25:24,095 And Board of the Inland Revenue's former Chief Prosecuting 465 00:25:24,215 --> 00:25:26,055 and Investigating Accountant. 466 00:25:26,175 --> 00:25:27,454 Now, that was a fun job. 467 00:25:28,694 --> 00:25:29,694 Shall we? 468 00:25:31,413 --> 00:25:32,533 May I underline that 469 00:25:32,653 --> 00:25:34,932 although the Post Office has agreed to fund 470 00:25:35,052 --> 00:25:37,132 this independent investigation, 471 00:25:37,252 --> 00:25:39,691 Mr Rutherford's organisation, Second Sight, 472 00:25:39,811 --> 00:25:45,249 will be working for us, the MPs, and therefore indirectly for you, 473 00:25:45,369 --> 00:25:47,449 Justice for Subpostmasters Alliance. 474 00:25:48,569 --> 00:25:52,727 So, Alan, Kay, what would you like to know? 475 00:25:54,327 --> 00:25:55,447 Well, I'd like to know exactly 476 00:25:55,567 --> 00:25:57,766 what makes you think you're qualified to do this job. 477 00:25:57,886 --> 00:26:01,605 Well, I'm a forensic accountant of many years' experience... 478 00:26:01,725 --> 00:26:04,564 I don't doubt your paper qualifications, 479 00:26:04,684 --> 00:26:07,483 Mr Rutherford, I have them here in front of me. 480 00:26:07,603 --> 00:26:10,003 But I see nothing to persuade me 481 00:26:10,123 --> 00:26:13,362 that Second Sight is remotely capable 482 00:26:13,482 --> 00:26:16,281 of producing a truly independent report. 483 00:26:16,401 --> 00:26:18,840 One that's ready to bite the hand that feeds you. 484 00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:21,079 Bob Rutherford is a Member of the Association 485 00:26:21,199 --> 00:26:22,959 of Certified Fraud Examiners. 486 00:26:23,079 --> 00:26:24,718 He has led hundreds of investigations 487 00:26:24,838 --> 00:26:27,558 all over the world into banking fraud, corruption, 488 00:26:27,678 --> 00:26:29,117 rogue traders, subprime mortgages... 489 00:26:29,237 --> 00:26:30,397 Doesn't answer my question. 490 00:26:31,716 --> 00:26:32,996 How can we be sure 491 00:26:33,116 --> 00:26:36,475 you will investigate fairly and independently? 492 00:26:36,595 --> 00:26:40,114 Because the people who suggested me know me of old. 493 00:26:40,234 --> 00:26:41,514 And that they want to hire me 494 00:26:41,634 --> 00:26:44,073 because they know what I like to do best. 495 00:26:44,193 --> 00:26:47,632 Which is to clear innocent people who look guilty. 496 00:26:49,192 --> 00:26:50,751 I still don't see how we can trust him 497 00:26:50,871 --> 00:26:53,230 when he's taking Post Office money? 498 00:26:53,350 --> 00:26:54,430 Well, you can't pay him! 499 00:26:54,550 --> 00:26:56,350 I can't pay you either! 500 00:26:56,470 --> 00:26:58,149 I'll help in my spare time. 501 00:26:58,269 --> 00:27:01,188 What I really need is lawyers who'll work for nothing. 502 00:27:01,308 --> 00:27:02,708 (LAUGHS) 503 00:27:02,828 --> 00:27:05,947 One day, you'll find your precious lawyers 504 00:27:06,067 --> 00:27:08,026 and we'll get this scandal into court. 505 00:27:08,146 --> 00:27:09,706 But we'll need evidence 506 00:27:09,826 --> 00:27:13,185 which mortals like us haven't a hope of getting our hands on. 507 00:27:13,305 --> 00:27:16,704 But Bob's outfit, Second Sight, 508 00:27:16,824 --> 00:27:19,943 they'll have access to seven years of raw data. 509 00:27:21,263 --> 00:27:26,141 This Bob, he can't just look at individual cases, though. 510 00:27:26,261 --> 00:27:28,541 He has to look at Horizon as a whole. 511 00:27:28,661 --> 00:27:29,820 As a system. 512 00:27:29,940 --> 00:27:33,579 Am I to take it you're happy to support his investigation? 513 00:27:33,699 --> 00:27:36,538 Well, being as it's the only one we've got. 514 00:27:46,456 --> 00:27:48,895 When I first came to the Post Office 515 00:27:49,015 --> 00:27:52,614 they were introducing chip and PIN and it never worked properly. 516 00:27:54,013 --> 00:27:59,652 The base unit, the Horizon computer, 517 00:27:59,772 --> 00:28:03,291 whatever you call it, the thing that sits under the counter, 518 00:28:03,411 --> 00:28:05,530 I thought of it as like an alien thing. 519 00:28:06,690 --> 00:28:08,809 Sometimes engineers would come from Fujitsu 520 00:28:08,929 --> 00:28:10,929 with their clever badges on. 521 00:28:11,049 --> 00:28:13,688 Um, I never had any idea what they were doing. 522 00:28:18,846 --> 00:28:22,046 This is probably a really stupid question, Bob. 523 00:28:22,166 --> 00:28:24,165 There are no such things as stupid questions, 524 00:28:24,285 --> 00:28:25,365 only stupid answers. 525 00:28:29,284 --> 00:28:32,643 That 36,000 pounds I'm supposed to have lost, 526 00:28:34,282 --> 00:28:36,122 where did it go? 527 00:28:36,242 --> 00:28:38,121 I haven't got it. 528 00:28:38,241 --> 00:28:39,641 So, who has? 529 00:28:39,761 --> 00:28:41,680 (INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC) 530 00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:45,319 I don't know but I'm gonna find out. 531 00:28:49,989 --> 00:28:52,909 (INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC) 532 00:29:02,390 --> 00:29:03,590 It's a Bed and Breakfast now. 533 00:29:05,590 --> 00:29:06,710 We're private people, Bob. 534 00:29:07,831 --> 00:29:09,151 This was our family home. 535 00:29:11,511 --> 00:29:13,791 But the Post Office gave us no option, 536 00:29:13,911 --> 00:29:16,431 no other way of making a living. 537 00:29:16,551 --> 00:29:17,552 Thank you. 538 00:29:19,712 --> 00:29:20,712 Cheers, love. 539 00:29:24,472 --> 00:29:27,233 My wife has had it so much harder than me. 540 00:29:30,513 --> 00:29:31,793 Susan was in charge 541 00:29:31,913 --> 00:29:33,553 while I was away on Federation business. 542 00:29:36,194 --> 00:29:38,514 She never told me so I had no idea she was in trouble... 543 00:29:40,034 --> 00:29:41,954 even though at least half my work in the Federation 544 00:29:42,074 --> 00:29:43,194 was Horizon related by then. 545 00:29:45,995 --> 00:29:46,995 I said to her... 546 00:29:48,995 --> 00:29:50,515 "You've ruined my fucking career. 547 00:29:52,355 --> 00:29:53,635 You've destroyed our business." 548 00:29:56,396 --> 00:29:58,516 Mr Rudkin, please don't feel obliged to... 549 00:29:58,636 --> 00:30:00,516 I said... 550 00:30:00,636 --> 00:30:01,876 I said I'd divorce her. 551 00:30:07,677 --> 00:30:12,357 Now, they punished my wife, who never stole a penny piece... 552 00:30:13,637 --> 00:30:14,918 just because I got inside Fujitsu 553 00:30:15,038 --> 00:30:16,358 and saw something that I shouldn't have. 554 00:30:24,319 --> 00:30:28,439 I think what I had was a computer bug. 555 00:30:28,559 --> 00:30:32,719 They've called it a 'Callendar Square Bug', 556 00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:33,800 I can't be sure. 557 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:39,040 But it was real, it was real. Other people had it. 558 00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:42,801 You know, I tried... I tried to tell the court that... 559 00:30:44,401 --> 00:30:50,201 I just kept sort of saying it wrong, and the more I tried, the more... 560 00:30:53,642 --> 00:30:54,642 I can't explain it. 561 00:30:57,642 --> 00:30:58,642 It was like... 562 00:31:00,722 --> 00:31:06,043 I was on the edge of a great dark hole... 563 00:31:09,523 --> 00:31:11,804 I was... I was just falling into it. 564 00:31:13,884 --> 00:31:17,404 And the thing is, I knew that they were lying, 565 00:31:17,524 --> 00:31:19,404 and I knew I was telling the truth. 566 00:31:21,245 --> 00:31:24,685 And I just thought, this is British justice, 567 00:31:24,805 --> 00:31:26,725 that's all I've got to do is tell the truth. 568 00:31:27,885 --> 00:31:28,805 Ah. 569 00:31:31,406 --> 00:31:32,326 I'm sorry! 570 00:31:32,446 --> 00:31:33,406 Oh, no, no, no! Sorry... 571 00:31:33,526 --> 00:31:34,726 I didn't want to upset you... God, no! Don't be. 572 00:31:34,846 --> 00:31:36,286 ..I was just trying to tell you... 573 00:31:36,406 --> 00:31:37,406 No. 574 00:31:39,687 --> 00:31:41,647 No, it's just the more of you people I meet, 575 00:31:41,767 --> 00:31:44,807 the less I know how you're all still standing. 576 00:31:51,208 --> 00:31:52,168 Yeah. 577 00:31:52,288 --> 00:31:53,368 Susan! 578 00:31:53,488 --> 00:31:54,928 Am I expecting you today? 579 00:31:56,088 --> 00:31:58,649 We need to speak now. 580 00:31:58,769 --> 00:32:00,489 Always good to see an old friend, 581 00:32:00,609 --> 00:32:02,249 but I do have a diary. 582 00:32:02,369 --> 00:32:03,489 Not today, you don't. 583 00:32:05,849 --> 00:32:06,809 Lee Castleton. 584 00:32:08,450 --> 00:32:09,570 You know, the one you hounded 585 00:32:09,690 --> 00:32:11,170 all the way to the Royal Courts of Justice... 586 00:32:11,290 --> 00:32:12,250 That was my predecessor. 587 00:32:12,370 --> 00:32:13,810 ..when you knew he didn't have any money? 588 00:32:15,050 --> 00:32:18,131 You have humiliated him, you have bankrupted him. 589 00:32:18,251 --> 00:32:19,251 And I don't get it. 590 00:32:20,451 --> 00:32:23,051 Yes, I...I don't know why we did that. 591 00:32:23,171 --> 00:32:24,371 Well, let me suggest two reasons. 592 00:32:24,491 --> 00:32:26,131 One, you're stupid. 593 00:32:26,251 --> 00:32:27,772 Or two, you want to rub his nose in the dirt, 594 00:32:27,892 --> 00:32:29,132 use him to frighten off everyone else. 595 00:32:29,252 --> 00:32:31,052 I wasn't even here then. 596 00:32:31,172 --> 00:32:33,252 Oh, please. What is wrong with you people? 597 00:32:35,012 --> 00:32:37,053 Are we ever to see the PIN pad 598 00:32:37,173 --> 00:32:40,533 that Mrs Kaur alleges was responsible for her shortfalls? 599 00:32:40,653 --> 00:32:42,293 Your Honour, I can now confirm 600 00:32:42,413 --> 00:32:43,573 that Post Office Limited 601 00:32:43,693 --> 00:32:46,534 is unable to produce the PIN pad in question. 602 00:32:46,654 --> 00:32:47,774 Because? 603 00:32:47,894 --> 00:32:50,734 I'm told it was sent away for repair 604 00:32:50,854 --> 00:32:53,454 and has been reprogrammed. 605 00:32:53,574 --> 00:32:54,894 So, it was faulty? 606 00:32:56,255 --> 00:32:58,175 In those circumstances, your Honour, 607 00:32:58,295 --> 00:33:01,015 the prosecution offers no evidence. 608 00:33:01,135 --> 00:33:04,815 This matter has dragged on for three years. 609 00:33:04,935 --> 00:33:06,976 I direct that a not guilty verdict 610 00:33:07,096 --> 00:33:10,016 be entered on all 36 counts on the indictment. 611 00:33:11,176 --> 00:33:14,496 Mrs Kaur, you are free to leave. 612 00:33:14,616 --> 00:33:15,697 (INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC) 613 00:33:15,817 --> 00:33:16,777 Court rise. 614 00:33:28,138 --> 00:33:31,538 Hey. See, you were right. 615 00:33:31,658 --> 00:33:33,018 It was faulty! 616 00:33:33,138 --> 00:33:35,459 Sam, three years of our lives, but it's over now. 617 00:33:35,579 --> 00:33:37,059 OK? No. 618 00:33:37,179 --> 00:33:39,459 Because they won't ever put another picture in the paper, 619 00:33:39,579 --> 00:33:41,099 will they, to say I'm innocent. 620 00:33:44,540 --> 00:33:45,540 Come on. 621 00:33:48,580 --> 00:33:49,940 We're making progress. 622 00:33:50,060 --> 00:33:53,821 Now the investigation is properly up and running, 623 00:33:53,941 --> 00:33:55,741 I just thought enough go-betweens, 624 00:33:55,861 --> 00:33:57,741 thought it a good idea to bring you both together. 625 00:33:57,861 --> 00:34:01,101 I do hope it's been useful for both of you. 626 00:34:01,221 --> 00:34:03,502 Terrific idea. Thank you, James. 627 00:34:03,622 --> 00:34:05,622 And, Alan, I do hope you will take away from this 628 00:34:05,742 --> 00:34:06,942 a sure understanding 629 00:34:07,062 --> 00:34:10,022 that Post Office is as fully committed as you are 630 00:34:10,142 --> 00:34:11,823 to resolving this situation. 631 00:34:12,983 --> 00:34:13,983 Thank you. 632 00:34:15,903 --> 00:34:18,863 And, um, if there's anything else? 633 00:34:18,983 --> 00:34:19,943 Er, no. I think... 634 00:34:20,063 --> 00:34:22,304 Actually, er... 635 00:34:22,424 --> 00:34:25,824 why are you only looking at 12 cases? 636 00:34:27,104 --> 00:34:28,984 Well, they are the 12 cases 637 00:34:29,104 --> 00:34:31,745 put forward by Members of Parliament. 638 00:34:31,865 --> 00:34:33,545 All the cases where we are alert 639 00:34:33,665 --> 00:34:36,505 to the possibility of a miscarriage of justice. 640 00:34:36,625 --> 00:34:38,745 There are a lot more though, Paula. 641 00:34:38,865 --> 00:34:42,746 Victims who were never charged with any criminal offence, 642 00:34:42,866 --> 00:34:46,826 but perhaps your people haven't told you about that? 643 00:34:46,946 --> 00:34:48,386 About all the destitution? 644 00:34:48,506 --> 00:34:52,827 People sleeping in their cars, losing their house, their health? 645 00:34:52,947 --> 00:34:54,787 Surely, you'd like to hear from them too? 646 00:35:01,788 --> 00:35:03,708 Is that your throwaway exit line? 647 00:35:05,668 --> 00:35:06,988 I'm just thinking, you know, 648 00:35:07,108 --> 00:35:08,508 if you knew the full story 649 00:35:08,628 --> 00:35:10,709 you wouldn't want that on your conscience so... 650 00:35:12,069 --> 00:35:14,989 Well, shall I suggest a few names? 651 00:35:18,750 --> 00:35:19,790 Well, yes, um... 652 00:35:21,670 --> 00:35:23,030 good idea. 653 00:35:23,150 --> 00:35:24,790 These are what I have here. 654 00:35:31,670 --> 00:35:32,910 (PHONE RINGS) 655 00:35:35,630 --> 00:35:37,070 Bob. Good to hear from you. 656 00:35:37,190 --> 00:35:38,150 Hi there. 657 00:35:38,270 --> 00:35:40,470 The day you went to Fujitsu, 658 00:35:40,590 --> 00:35:42,471 are you sure it was the 19th of August? 659 00:35:42,591 --> 00:35:45,631 2008. Yeah, never forget that. 660 00:35:45,751 --> 00:35:47,151 The last day of our old life. 661 00:35:47,271 --> 00:35:49,311 Michael, you're not down as a visitor 662 00:35:49,431 --> 00:35:50,751 on their security logs. 663 00:35:52,191 --> 00:35:54,912 The Post Office are denying that your visit ever happened. 664 00:35:55,032 --> 00:35:57,552 Course they are. Can you prove it? 665 00:36:01,712 --> 00:36:03,432 Michael, can you prove you were there? 666 00:36:05,233 --> 00:36:07,953 Bob, it was four years ago! 667 00:36:08,073 --> 00:36:10,033 I don't work for the Post Office anymore. 668 00:36:19,634 --> 00:36:21,354 There we are! 669 00:36:21,474 --> 00:36:23,914 Look at your new best friend pretending she can do a proper job. 670 00:36:25,554 --> 00:36:27,955 It's lovely to be here, thank you. 671 00:36:28,075 --> 00:36:29,235 Paula, how often do you get to visit 672 00:36:29,355 --> 00:36:30,675 a place like this? 673 00:36:30,795 --> 00:36:32,795 Probably once a month if I can. 674 00:36:32,915 --> 00:36:34,355 Oh, puh-lease! What kind of reaction do you get? 675 00:36:34,475 --> 00:36:37,075 I mean, you're the big boss. Do you think they get intimidated? 676 00:36:37,195 --> 00:36:39,836 No, this is the post office! 677 00:36:39,956 --> 00:36:41,476 I get treated the same as everybody else 678 00:36:41,596 --> 00:36:43,356 and they tell me how it is. 679 00:36:43,476 --> 00:36:45,076 And what's it like being the chief executive 680 00:36:45,196 --> 00:36:47,116 of a major company? 681 00:36:47,236 --> 00:36:49,677 Well, I think you can tell by the smile on my face 682 00:36:49,797 --> 00:36:51,877 that it's...It's great. 683 00:36:51,997 --> 00:36:54,477 Retail is detail... Shut up! 684 00:36:54,597 --> 00:36:56,717 Shut up, you silly cow! 685 00:36:56,837 --> 00:36:58,557 Come on, come and get your breakfast. 686 00:37:05,078 --> 00:37:06,598 I shall present evidence to show 687 00:37:06,718 --> 00:37:09,678 that the Post Office has made failures in support, 688 00:37:09,798 --> 00:37:11,198 investigation, training 689 00:37:11,318 --> 00:37:14,199 and I've found clear evidence of two bugs. 690 00:37:14,319 --> 00:37:15,319 Two? 691 00:37:15,439 --> 00:37:19,159 We gave you 47 cases. 47. 692 00:37:19,279 --> 00:37:23,239 And this draft report of yours only mentions three. 693 00:37:23,359 --> 00:37:26,680 Where's Michael Rudkin who can prove they're lying about remote access? 694 00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:28,080 He can't prove it, actually. 695 00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:29,160 Well, Members of Parliament 696 00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:31,280 would certainly like to see more individual cases. 697 00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:35,481 Ah, the...the point is not individual cases! 698 00:37:35,601 --> 00:37:39,441 The point is total systemic failure which you don't mention. 699 00:37:39,561 --> 00:37:41,801 We haven't found hard evidence of that either. 700 00:37:41,921 --> 00:37:45,281 Well, what would you call the endless PIN pad anomalies 701 00:37:45,401 --> 00:37:48,402 and shortfalls doubling before people's eyes 702 00:37:48,522 --> 00:37:50,802 and overnight so-called corrections? 703 00:37:50,922 --> 00:37:53,082 Well, there are 68,000 users 704 00:37:53,202 --> 00:37:55,602 processing six million transactions a day. 705 00:37:55,722 --> 00:37:57,643 Well, this is just the gospel according to the Post Office! 706 00:37:57,763 --> 00:37:58,683 Alan... 707 00:37:58,803 --> 00:37:59,723 For it to be systemic, 708 00:37:59,843 --> 00:38:02,683 that would have to mean that the whole network was affected 709 00:38:02,803 --> 00:38:03,803 and it...it just isn't. 710 00:38:03,923 --> 00:38:05,803 What about the way they abuse their power 711 00:38:05,923 --> 00:38:08,323 and prosecute people without investigating properly? 712 00:38:08,443 --> 00:38:09,964 And then... 713 00:38:10,084 --> 00:38:13,444 and then terminate them on three months' notice 714 00:38:13,564 --> 00:38:14,764 and walk away with their life savings? 715 00:38:14,884 --> 00:38:16,564 Is that not a systemic failure? 716 00:38:16,684 --> 00:38:18,364 We all agreed from the beginning 717 00:38:18,484 --> 00:38:20,645 that the report should be accurate and evidence based. 718 00:38:20,765 --> 00:38:22,845 The Post Office has left a trail of destruction 719 00:38:22,965 --> 00:38:25,765 ever since the day that Horizon was introduced, 720 00:38:25,885 --> 00:38:27,165 and we're just sitting around 721 00:38:27,285 --> 00:38:30,925 chatting about it while they're still ruining lives. 722 00:38:31,045 --> 00:38:32,166 Systemically! 723 00:38:34,246 --> 00:38:39,166 Ah, I agree to this. I must have been mad. 724 00:38:39,286 --> 00:38:40,846 Welshmen with bees in their bonnets. 725 00:38:42,006 --> 00:38:43,327 I was born in Liverpool! 726 00:38:44,807 --> 00:38:47,887 He's an accountant, Alan. He's naturally cautious. 727 00:38:48,007 --> 00:38:50,887 Cautious like you? I can be cautious! 728 00:38:51,007 --> 00:38:53,167 It wasn't me in there banging the table! 729 00:38:54,528 --> 00:38:56,408 I've never seen you angry before. 730 00:38:56,528 --> 00:38:58,408 All that grandstanding, you mean? 731 00:38:58,528 --> 00:38:59,728 I learnt that from you, Kay. 732 00:39:01,528 --> 00:39:03,928 I don't get angry, I just get frustrated. 733 00:39:05,609 --> 00:39:07,049 Second Sight are going to have to come up 734 00:39:07,169 --> 00:39:08,289 with something better than this. 735 00:39:08,409 --> 00:39:11,329 (INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC) 736 00:39:13,849 --> 00:39:15,169 (PHONE RINGS) 737 00:39:23,050 --> 00:39:24,770 Bob, how's it going? 738 00:39:24,890 --> 00:39:27,250 Michael, good. Um, any luck? 739 00:39:27,370 --> 00:39:28,931 It's been a long time. 740 00:39:29,051 --> 00:39:30,251 A lot of water under the bridge. 741 00:39:32,051 --> 00:39:34,051 Yeah, OK. I understand. 742 00:39:34,171 --> 00:39:36,691 But, er, see attached. 743 00:39:51,533 --> 00:39:53,733 Oh, my fucking good god! 744 00:39:57,013 --> 00:39:58,173 Michael, thank you! 745 00:39:59,453 --> 00:40:00,533 Thank you so much! 746 00:40:03,974 --> 00:40:05,614 (PHONE RINGS) 747 00:40:05,734 --> 00:40:09,774 So, Bob, I can confirm that in August 2008 748 00:40:09,894 --> 00:40:12,214 the basement of Fujitsu's building in Bracknell 749 00:40:12,334 --> 00:40:15,055 did contain a Horizon test environment. 750 00:40:15,175 --> 00:40:18,175 Note, a test environment. 751 00:40:19,415 --> 00:40:22,175 And that's what we believe your subpostmaster Mr Rudkin saw. 752 00:40:22,295 --> 00:40:24,175 He got the wrong end of the stick? 753 00:40:25,696 --> 00:40:27,776 The test environment wasn't physically connected 754 00:40:27,896 --> 00:40:29,456 to the live Horizon system, 755 00:40:29,576 --> 00:40:32,336 so it wasn't possible for the transactions 756 00:40:32,456 --> 00:40:33,896 he thought he saw to be real. 757 00:40:36,817 --> 00:40:38,617 Got it. Thank you. 758 00:40:40,417 --> 00:40:43,137 That's cleared that up. Good. 759 00:40:45,857 --> 00:40:47,698 I'll see you out. 760 00:40:47,818 --> 00:40:50,738 Thank you for joining me by conference call. 761 00:40:50,858 --> 00:40:54,858 I am sorry for the short notice in keeping the Board updated. 762 00:40:54,978 --> 00:40:56,898 The Horizon review interim report 763 00:40:57,018 --> 00:41:00,419 will be presented to MPs in one week's time. 764 00:41:00,539 --> 00:41:03,579 The report has found no systemic issues 765 00:41:03,699 --> 00:41:06,139 with the Horizon computer system. 766 00:41:06,259 --> 00:41:08,739 But I am concerned that the report 767 00:41:08,859 --> 00:41:11,980 from the independent forensic accountant 768 00:41:12,100 --> 00:41:14,180 is not as factual as expected... 769 00:41:15,900 --> 00:41:17,820 and could lead to loose language. 770 00:41:17,940 --> 00:41:20,860 (TENSE MUSIC) 771 00:41:28,737 --> 00:41:31,740 What are you? Poacher turned gamekeeper? 772 00:41:31,860 --> 00:41:36,185 This report of yours turns out to be not half bad, considering. 773 00:41:36,305 --> 00:41:37,306 (LAUGHS) 774 00:41:37,426 --> 00:41:39,629 Faint praise, I like it. 775 00:41:40,950 --> 00:41:42,712 Oh, I just hope it makes a difference. 776 00:41:44,113 --> 00:41:46,436 What got Michael Rudkin into the final version? 777 00:41:46,556 --> 00:41:47,477 Mm. 778 00:41:47,597 --> 00:41:49,679 An email inviting him to Bracknell, 779 00:41:49,799 --> 00:41:52,842 copied to seven named Post Office executives. 780 00:41:52,963 --> 00:41:54,004 Hold on. 781 00:41:54,124 --> 00:41:57,127 So, first they say he wasn't there. 782 00:41:57,247 --> 00:41:58,769 Then they say he was there, but what... 783 00:41:58,889 --> 00:42:01,652 his...his glasses were broken? 784 00:42:01,772 --> 00:42:04,054 I wonder if they even know they're talking bollocks? 785 00:42:04,174 --> 00:42:06,257 Welcome aboard, Bob. 786 00:42:06,377 --> 00:42:08,019 Yeah, they still say 787 00:42:08,139 --> 00:42:11,582 that there's no remote access into your accounts. 788 00:42:11,702 --> 00:42:12,904 I'm sorry, but I don't think 789 00:42:13,024 --> 00:42:15,026 I'm going to be able to prove that they're wrong 790 00:42:15,146 --> 00:42:16,267 and that you're right on this one. 791 00:42:16,387 --> 00:42:17,469 Ah. 792 00:42:17,589 --> 00:42:19,871 But, Alan, there are things... 793 00:42:19,991 --> 00:42:22,274 documents that I've found in the Post Office files, 794 00:42:22,394 --> 00:42:24,276 they're beyond belief. 795 00:42:24,396 --> 00:42:25,717 Are you going to tell me more? 796 00:42:26,878 --> 00:42:28,360 There's someone else I need to tell first. 797 00:42:31,523 --> 00:42:36,088 Good morning, Mr Frog! There he is! 798 00:42:36,208 --> 00:42:37,209 Let's say good morning. 799 00:42:37,329 --> 00:42:38,971 Hello, all. Bob! 800 00:42:39,091 --> 00:42:41,654 We're babysitting in the sunshine. Isn't he gorgeous? 801 00:42:41,774 --> 00:42:42,775 (LAUGHS) 802 00:42:42,895 --> 00:42:44,697 I was hoping you'd be sitting somewhere quiet. 803 00:42:46,299 --> 00:42:48,501 Yeah, I can do that! Or I can put the kettle on? 804 00:42:48,621 --> 00:42:51,024 Oh, me and Joshua will put the kettle on. 805 00:42:55,429 --> 00:42:57,871 Your investigator, Ryan Fleming. 806 00:42:57,991 --> 00:42:59,072 The turd? 807 00:42:59,193 --> 00:43:01,315 Did you ever see his report about you? 808 00:43:03,237 --> 00:43:04,238 No. 809 00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:08,963 17th of May 2006, 810 00:43:09,083 --> 00:43:12,807 he recorded that he had analysed your Horizon accounts 811 00:43:12,927 --> 00:43:16,411 and was unable to find any evidence of theft. 812 00:43:17,532 --> 00:43:19,975 I pleaded guilty to false accounting instead. 813 00:43:20,095 --> 00:43:21,576 Hmm, yes. 814 00:43:21,696 --> 00:43:25,781 No evidence means they had no right to charge you with theft, 815 00:43:25,901 --> 00:43:28,824 and therefore no right to plea bargain you down 816 00:43:28,944 --> 00:43:29,985 to false accounting. 817 00:43:31,787 --> 00:43:32,948 Jo, no evidence means 818 00:43:33,068 --> 00:43:35,831 they had no right to take you to court at all. 819 00:43:37,633 --> 00:43:40,556 (PENSIVE MUSIC) 820 00:43:49,326 --> 00:43:50,967 Everything I've gone through. 821 00:43:54,371 --> 00:43:55,852 Everything I've lost. 822 00:43:58,495 --> 00:44:02,139 Ten years of heartache... 823 00:44:03,501 --> 00:44:07,665 and sleepless nights and always skint. 824 00:44:10,468 --> 00:44:14,672 And they destroyed our whole life for a lie. 825 00:44:18,436 --> 00:44:20,158 What kind of people are they? 826 00:44:24,122 --> 00:44:25,484 The second sight report 827 00:44:25,604 --> 00:44:27,926 presented to MPs in Westminster today 828 00:44:28,047 --> 00:44:31,570 was expected to include criticism of the Horizon computer system 829 00:44:31,690 --> 00:44:34,013 and of the senior management at the Post Office. 830 00:44:34,133 --> 00:44:36,095 But while the report does raise concerns 831 00:44:36,215 --> 00:44:38,818 about unreliable hardware and poor training 832 00:44:38,938 --> 00:44:42,021 a Post Office spokesperson said the investigation clearly shows 833 00:44:42,141 --> 00:44:45,785 its Horizon system as a whole is operating as it should. 834 00:44:45,905 --> 00:44:47,347 MPs praised the Post Office 835 00:44:47,467 --> 00:44:49,549 for the way they've dealt with these difficult issues. 836 00:44:58,839 --> 00:45:00,040 (PHONE RINGS) 837 00:45:05,366 --> 00:45:06,327 Alan Bates. 838 00:45:07,728 --> 00:45:09,650 Alan, it's Paula Vennells. 839 00:45:13,414 --> 00:45:14,416 Paula. 840 00:45:17,218 --> 00:45:18,220 Joking. 841 00:45:18,340 --> 00:45:20,142 So, I was thinking... 842 00:45:23,545 --> 00:45:24,746 where do we go from here? 843 00:45:26,909 --> 00:45:27,910 Well... 844 00:45:29,712 --> 00:45:31,353 um I've been thinking about that too. 845 00:45:32,595 --> 00:45:33,876 Well, great. 846 00:45:33,996 --> 00:45:36,279 Should the two of us try and find a way forward? 847 00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:38,721 If you want something done properly, 848 00:45:38,841 --> 00:45:39,842 do it yourself? 849 00:45:41,604 --> 00:45:42,605 Exactly. 850 00:45:44,688 --> 00:45:45,689 Well... 851 00:45:47,050 --> 00:45:48,011 how can I help? 93611

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