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1
00:00:09,532 --> 00:00:12,452
(INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC)
2
00:00:18,812 --> 00:00:20,452
I just think
you made a mistake, Sam.
3
00:00:23,812 --> 00:00:25,252
I know but they said
if I pleaded guilty
4
00:00:25,372 --> 00:00:26,412
I could have the shop back.
5
00:00:26,532 --> 00:00:27,932
How is that ever gonna work?
6
00:00:29,092 --> 00:00:30,972
You'll be a convicted criminal.
7
00:00:34,012 --> 00:00:34,972
Look!
8
00:00:35,092 --> 00:00:36,212
I'm your husband
9
00:00:36,332 --> 00:00:38,892
and I have to read about this
in the newspaper!
10
00:00:39,012 --> 00:00:41,052
I was on my own in the interview.
11
00:00:41,172 --> 00:00:42,572
And I thought
I was doing the right thing.
12
00:00:42,692 --> 00:00:43,972
Jas, please!
13
00:00:44,092 --> 00:00:45,972
You're an innocent woman!
14
00:00:46,092 --> 00:00:49,012
You should have pleaded not guilty,
like we agreed.
15
00:00:49,132 --> 00:00:52,052
Come on, we're gonna be late.
They'll have started without us.
16
00:01:10,172 --> 00:01:11,412
It was unbelievable.
17
00:01:12,692 --> 00:01:14,652
The lowest day of my life.
18
00:01:16,212 --> 00:01:17,652
Um, hi.
19
00:01:17,772 --> 00:01:22,172
Er, sorry we're late,
um, we got a bit lost.
20
00:01:22,292 --> 00:01:24,172
Sorry.
21
00:01:24,292 --> 00:01:25,932
Are you... are you... Is this...
22
00:01:26,052 --> 00:01:28,012
We're all former subpostmasters.
23
00:01:28,132 --> 00:01:30,172
Come in, it's OK.
24
00:01:30,292 --> 00:01:33,012
Please, find a seat.
25
00:01:34,372 --> 00:01:37,172
Er, er, I'm Jas Singh.
26
00:01:37,292 --> 00:01:39,732
I'm Sam from Walsall.
Yeah, Walsall.
27
00:01:39,852 --> 00:01:43,172
Well, we're all sharing our stories.
28
00:01:45,932 --> 00:01:48,532
I don't know if you want to...
Go on, Sam. Go on.
29
00:01:51,092 --> 00:01:52,492
I had no problems
30
00:01:52,612 --> 00:01:54,412
till they sent us
a new Horizon PIN pad.
31
00:01:56,012 --> 00:01:57,972
They just won't have it
32
00:01:58,092 --> 00:01:59,612
that there's something wrong
with the thing.
33
00:02:00,852 --> 00:02:02,692
They say I'm piggybacking.
34
00:02:02,812 --> 00:02:04,812
Going into the till to pay out
a pension with one hand
35
00:02:04,932 --> 00:02:06,732
and paying myself with the other.
36
00:02:06,852 --> 00:02:08,812
I'm guessing they also said
37
00:02:08,932 --> 00:02:11,012
you were the only ones
having these problems?
38
00:02:11,132 --> 00:02:13,132
Yeah, and I'm guessing
they said the same to everyone else
39
00:02:13,252 --> 00:02:14,172
in this room, right?
40
00:02:14,292 --> 00:02:16,052
I'm such a fool I believed them!
41
00:02:16,172 --> 00:02:17,772
I believed them
42
00:02:17,892 --> 00:02:20,292
when they said, just confess you
took that 5,000 pounds, Sam,
43
00:02:20,412 --> 00:02:21,892
and you'll be back
in your shop tomorrow.
44
00:02:22,012 --> 00:02:23,412
You shouldn't have done that!
45
00:02:23,532 --> 00:02:26,052
It was...it was the new PIN pad,
it wasn't your fault.
46
00:02:26,172 --> 00:02:27,972
It...it wasn't her fault.
47
00:02:28,092 --> 00:02:31,132
Actually, I pleaded guilty too.
48
00:02:32,372 --> 00:02:35,132
So, did I.
What, you did?
49
00:02:36,412 --> 00:02:37,332
I can't believe it.
50
00:02:37,452 --> 00:02:40,532
I...I thought we were
on our own, you know?
51
00:02:40,652 --> 00:02:42,452
Not anymore.
52
00:02:42,572 --> 00:02:43,972
I'm a mother.
53
00:02:44,092 --> 00:02:45,412
I don't wanna go to prison.
54
00:02:45,532 --> 00:02:47,652
No, we're changing your plea.
55
00:02:47,772 --> 00:02:49,452
OK? You're not guilty.
56
00:02:49,572 --> 00:02:51,732
And this time
I am coming to court with you.
57
00:02:51,852 --> 00:02:55,252
Hey, now if you're thinking
of going to court...
58
00:02:56,892 --> 00:02:57,892
just be careful.
59
00:02:59,012 --> 00:03:03,572
Well, there are people here
who've done time.
60
00:03:03,692 --> 00:03:08,252
We...we've all lost our businesses
and our savings.
61
00:03:09,412 --> 00:03:13,092
The question is
what are we going to do about it?
62
00:03:14,812 --> 00:03:16,652
(INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC)
63
00:03:16,772 --> 00:03:18,732
MPs.
Neither use nor ornament.
64
00:03:18,852 --> 00:03:22,092
Mum, stop it! Be nice.
65
00:03:22,212 --> 00:03:24,052
At least he's taken
the trouble to turn up.
66
00:03:27,772 --> 00:03:30,252
Um, Mrs Hamilton?
That's me!
67
00:03:30,372 --> 00:03:31,372
James Arbuthnot.
68
00:03:31,492 --> 00:03:33,572
Thank you for coming.
My pleasure.
69
00:03:33,692 --> 00:03:35,492
Do come in.
Jo's mum.
70
00:03:35,612 --> 00:03:36,612
Hello.
71
00:03:38,092 --> 00:03:39,652
So, one way or another,
72
00:03:39,772 --> 00:03:42,412
we're all fighting back
every way we can.
73
00:03:42,532 --> 00:03:44,572
We're even thinking
about suing the Post Office.
74
00:03:44,692 --> 00:03:47,092
I'd like to see you try
with no money!
75
00:03:47,212 --> 00:03:48,972
Well, it's a good job
talking to your MP
76
00:03:49,092 --> 00:03:50,692
costs absolutely nothing!
77
00:03:50,812 --> 00:03:51,892
Is this homemade?
78
00:03:52,012 --> 00:03:53,812
Well, it looks delicious.
Thank you, I will.
79
00:03:55,292 --> 00:03:59,092
We thought, maybe, you could talk
to the government or something?
80
00:03:59,212 --> 00:04:00,332
Yes, indeed!
81
00:04:01,812 --> 00:04:04,252
There are two other cases
in my constituency alone.
82
00:04:04,372 --> 00:04:05,972
Wow. Really?
83
00:04:06,092 --> 00:04:07,132
It's very odd, isn't it?
84
00:04:07,252 --> 00:04:10,732
I mean, the Post Office
is a national institution.
85
00:04:10,852 --> 00:04:13,332
You'd think you could trust them
to listen to their own people.
86
00:04:13,452 --> 00:04:16,732
Personally, Mr Arbuthnot...
James, please.
87
00:04:16,852 --> 00:04:19,332
..I wouldn't trust them
as far as I could throw them.
88
00:04:21,692 --> 00:04:24,812
I'm going to ask around the House,
89
00:04:24,932 --> 00:04:27,692
see how many Members
are hearing similar stories.
90
00:04:27,812 --> 00:04:29,692
Make an approach
to Post Office management
91
00:04:29,812 --> 00:04:31,732
at the highest level.
92
00:04:31,852 --> 00:04:34,852
I think I feel a campaign coming on!
93
00:04:41,092 --> 00:04:42,092
Oh, that's lovely.
94
00:04:46,092 --> 00:04:47,612
And so my client Mrs Kaur
95
00:04:47,732 --> 00:04:50,772
seeks permission to change her plea
to not guilty.
96
00:04:50,892 --> 00:04:53,252
This is because
she had no solicitor with her
97
00:04:53,372 --> 00:04:55,572
during her interview under caution.
98
00:04:55,692 --> 00:04:57,892
And because
there is also a technical issue,
99
00:04:58,012 --> 00:05:00,892
which you may consider
requires expert evidence,
100
00:05:01,012 --> 00:05:03,612
concerning a PIN pad.
101
00:05:03,732 --> 00:05:05,052
I can't see anything here.
102
00:05:05,172 --> 00:05:07,772
Her PIN pad was faulty!
Quiet, please!
103
00:05:10,012 --> 00:05:13,372
Very well, Mrs Kaur,
I vacate your plea.
104
00:05:13,492 --> 00:05:14,652
How do you now plead?
105
00:05:18,412 --> 00:05:19,412
Not guilty.
106
00:05:25,532 --> 00:05:26,532
(SNIFFLES)
107
00:05:33,292 --> 00:05:34,452
Is that him?
108
00:05:34,572 --> 00:05:36,652
The so-called trade unionist.
109
00:05:36,772 --> 00:05:39,492
He's got a bloody nerve.
Federation man.
110
00:05:39,612 --> 00:05:42,012
A Federation man
who calls out of nowhere.
111
00:05:43,372 --> 00:05:44,612
How do we know we can trust him?
112
00:05:47,212 --> 00:05:48,212
We don't.
113
00:05:52,812 --> 00:05:54,292
Michael.
Hi, Alan.
114
00:05:55,692 --> 00:05:57,732
You found us then?
Yeah.
115
00:05:57,852 --> 00:05:59,292
I've never even heard
of Fenny Compton.
116
00:06:03,972 --> 00:06:05,972
Alright, everyone,
shall we make a start?
117
00:06:07,092 --> 00:06:09,332
Shall we make a start? Thanks.
118
00:06:10,492 --> 00:06:11,772
Right.
119
00:06:11,892 --> 00:06:15,332
So, welcome to the second meeting
120
00:06:15,452 --> 00:06:18,652
of the Justice
for Subpostmasters Alliance.
121
00:06:18,772 --> 00:06:22,212
Now, before we get
on to our campaign update,
122
00:06:22,332 --> 00:06:26,132
er, we have a guest
who'd like permission to speak.
123
00:06:29,412 --> 00:06:33,172
This is Michael Rudkin, friends,
124
00:06:33,292 --> 00:06:34,652
an Executive Officer
125
00:06:34,772 --> 00:06:36,812
of the National Federation
for Subpostmasters.
126
00:06:38,452 --> 00:06:39,772
Not anymore.
The Federation?
127
00:06:39,892 --> 00:06:42,052
You know that the Federation
sent me back my membership fee,
128
00:06:42,172 --> 00:06:43,172
said they wouldn't represent me.
129
00:06:43,292 --> 00:06:45,852
They told me
to get a good criminal lawyer,
130
00:06:45,972 --> 00:06:47,292
and that was the last
I heard of them.
131
00:06:47,412 --> 00:06:48,892
Our so-called union
132
00:06:49,012 --> 00:06:51,572
has been in bed with the Post Office
for years!
133
00:06:51,692 --> 00:06:53,132
I can either leave
by the way I came in
134
00:06:53,252 --> 00:06:54,252
or I can tell you my story!
135
00:06:55,412 --> 00:06:56,412
Up to you, pal.
136
00:06:58,652 --> 00:07:00,372
You know,
you think you're the little guys
137
00:07:00,492 --> 00:07:03,212
facing up to one powerful enemy?
138
00:07:03,332 --> 00:07:04,292
You're wrong.
139
00:07:06,052 --> 00:07:07,612
Post Office
don't make the computers, do they?
140
00:07:09,252 --> 00:07:11,612
You know, they don't design the kit,
141
00:07:11,732 --> 00:07:14,532
they don't write the software,
they don't run the network.
142
00:07:16,532 --> 00:07:20,572
That's Fujitsu,
a multinational corporation.
143
00:07:20,692 --> 00:07:22,012
Headquarters in Bracknell.
144
00:07:23,652 --> 00:07:27,012
I've been there,
I've seen what they can do.
145
00:07:27,132 --> 00:07:30,012
Two years ago, I got myself
an invitation to Fujitsu
146
00:07:30,132 --> 00:07:31,092
to sort out the issue
147
00:07:31,212 --> 00:07:32,492
with the foreign exchange
stock control
148
00:07:32,612 --> 00:07:33,812
that we were all
having problems with.
149
00:07:35,092 --> 00:07:37,292
Hiya, Mike Rudkin
to see George Delph.
150
00:07:38,532 --> 00:07:39,532
Thanks, mate.
151
00:07:40,732 --> 00:07:43,012
19th of August 2008.
152
00:07:45,452 --> 00:07:47,492
Cheers. Thanks, mate.
153
00:07:47,612 --> 00:07:48,972
Mr Rudkin?
154
00:07:49,092 --> 00:07:50,452
George Delph. Hi.
155
00:07:50,572 --> 00:07:52,412
Hi. It's good to meet you.
And you.
156
00:07:52,532 --> 00:07:54,412
Welcome to Fujitsu.
Cheers.
157
00:07:55,572 --> 00:07:56,652
If you'd like to follow me?
158
00:07:59,492 --> 00:08:01,732
Horizon is the largest IT system
in Europe,
159
00:08:01,852 --> 00:08:03,332
we're very proud of that.
160
00:08:03,452 --> 00:08:04,892
Outside the military, that is.
161
00:08:07,052 --> 00:08:09,572
It cost a billion pounds.
162
00:08:09,692 --> 00:08:12,932
We rolled out 40,000 terminals
to your members.
163
00:08:13,052 --> 00:08:13,972
So, this accounts
164
00:08:14,092 --> 00:08:15,492
for all the James Bond stuff,
does it?
165
00:08:18,572 --> 00:08:21,172
All I'm expecting is they'll give me
a bit of training I can pass on.
166
00:08:23,492 --> 00:08:25,052
Oh, right.
167
00:08:25,172 --> 00:08:26,612
State of the art everything?
168
00:08:27,732 --> 00:08:29,612
That must be why a lot of my members
have been complaining
169
00:08:29,732 --> 00:08:32,732
about your rubbish
foreign exchange stock control.
170
00:08:32,852 --> 00:08:34,332
We can help!
171
00:08:34,452 --> 00:08:36,012
A lot of my members
have been losing money.
172
00:08:36,132 --> 00:08:38,452
Oh, the bottom line!
Me included.
173
00:08:40,692 --> 00:08:43,292
Meet your friendly
Covert Operations Team.
174
00:08:44,652 --> 00:08:45,612
I get in there
175
00:08:45,732 --> 00:08:50,132
and this guy sits me down
at a Horizon terminal.
176
00:08:50,252 --> 00:08:51,732
Alright, so, easiest way to help
177
00:08:51,852 --> 00:08:52,772
is if I just show you
178
00:08:52,892 --> 00:08:55,492
how to adjust
your stock control manually.
179
00:08:55,612 --> 00:08:59,532
And I said to him, is this live?
180
00:08:59,652 --> 00:09:01,492
Sure. Look at the clock.
181
00:09:03,692 --> 00:09:08,052
So, if I start by adjusting this
from sterling to Euros...
182
00:09:08,172 --> 00:09:10,212
And I said to him,
183
00:09:10,332 --> 00:09:13,772
"You're inside
some subpostmaster's Horizon.
184
00:09:13,892 --> 00:09:15,532
And he doesn't know?"
185
00:09:15,652 --> 00:09:16,652
He said "Yeah.
186
00:09:18,092 --> 00:09:19,252
Yeah, I am".
187
00:09:22,612 --> 00:09:24,252
How else am I gonna show you
how to do this?
188
00:09:25,652 --> 00:09:27,532
And then, right in front of my eyes,
189
00:09:27,652 --> 00:09:30,692
he starts changing
the subpostmaster's figures.
190
00:09:30,812 --> 00:09:34,972
Excuse me, I've been telling
my members for years,
191
00:09:35,092 --> 00:09:37,172
no-one else has access
to their branch accounts.
192
00:09:38,692 --> 00:09:41,492
Er, OK, well, um, I'd better
put the figures
193
00:09:41,612 --> 00:09:43,772
back the way they were then
or they won't balance tonight.
194
00:09:57,252 --> 00:09:58,972
Ladies and gentlemen,
you know what this means.
195
00:10:00,332 --> 00:10:02,212
It means they can sneak in
behind your back,
196
00:10:02,332 --> 00:10:04,972
change your figures, bugger off,
and leave with no trace.
197
00:10:08,052 --> 00:10:09,612
It's remote access.
198
00:10:09,732 --> 00:10:11,892
Well, that makes sense.
199
00:10:12,012 --> 00:10:13,812
It's how they send updates
and bug fixes.
200
00:10:13,932 --> 00:10:14,892
No, no, no.
201
00:10:15,012 --> 00:10:17,572
The helpline, they said that...
they said that was impossible.
202
00:10:17,692 --> 00:10:19,412
They said that the branch accounts
were totally secure,
203
00:10:19,532 --> 00:10:20,652
that's what they told me.
204
00:10:20,772 --> 00:10:21,772
They lied.
205
00:10:23,612 --> 00:10:26,132
But if they're getting
into our accounts
206
00:10:26,252 --> 00:10:27,692
and messing about in there...
207
00:10:27,812 --> 00:10:29,292
Then it's a bit rich
for them to claim
208
00:10:29,412 --> 00:10:32,132
that we have 100% responsibility
when money goes missing.
209
00:10:32,252 --> 00:10:33,732
Exactly!
Yeah.
210
00:10:35,012 --> 00:10:37,172
So, I drive home from Fujitsu.
211
00:10:39,212 --> 00:10:42,972
The next morning, I wake up
212
00:10:43,092 --> 00:10:47,052
and my wife is stood
at the foot of our bed
213
00:10:47,172 --> 00:10:51,012
and there's an auditor beside her.
214
00:10:54,172 --> 00:10:59,372
Your post office
is now 44,000 pounds in deficit,
215
00:10:59,492 --> 00:11:00,492
says he.
216
00:11:03,572 --> 00:11:04,532
Coincidence?
217
00:11:05,892 --> 00:11:06,852
Revenge?
218
00:11:06,972 --> 00:11:08,412
My wife ran the post office
219
00:11:08,532 --> 00:11:10,572
when I was away
on Federation business,
220
00:11:10,692 --> 00:11:13,012
so although
I was the subpostmaster...
221
00:11:15,172 --> 00:11:16,172
my poor wife...
222
00:11:19,052 --> 00:11:20,292
is now a convicted criminal.
223
00:11:24,932 --> 00:11:25,932
You're welcome.
224
00:11:34,932 --> 00:11:35,932
Wait!
225
00:11:37,532 --> 00:11:39,132
Mr Rudkin. Thank you.
226
00:11:40,852 --> 00:11:42,492
Thank you.
227
00:11:42,612 --> 00:11:43,732
Yeah, it won't do any good.
228
00:11:59,852 --> 00:12:00,852
So, they punished him.
229
00:12:03,212 --> 00:12:05,972
They punished him
for standing up to them.
230
00:12:07,332 --> 00:12:08,852
It's what they did to me.
231
00:12:08,972 --> 00:12:10,572
They...they knew
I had to fight them,
232
00:12:10,692 --> 00:12:13,052
but they knew
I didn't stand a chance.
233
00:12:13,172 --> 00:12:15,292
They just did it
to teach me a lesson.
234
00:12:15,412 --> 00:12:18,012
To teach everyone
in this room a lesson.
235
00:12:18,132 --> 00:12:19,172
That's what we're up against.
236
00:12:19,292 --> 00:12:20,972
That is what we're up against!
237
00:12:31,500 --> 00:12:33,541
The Post Office
are still investigating
238
00:12:33,661 --> 00:12:35,662
so it's gonna take a bit longer
239
00:12:35,782 --> 00:12:38,864
than we thought
as it's now 36 charges.
240
00:12:38,984 --> 00:12:40,985
How many?
36 charges.
241
00:12:41,105 --> 00:12:43,306
No! No, no, that's totally wrong.
242
00:12:43,426 --> 00:12:45,147
I've got the indictment
right here, Jas.
243
00:12:45,267 --> 00:12:47,468
It's definitely now 36 charges.
244
00:12:47,588 --> 00:12:50,309
But it was... it was 19!
245
00:12:50,429 --> 00:12:51,830
Where have all these new ones
come from?
246
00:12:53,031 --> 00:12:54,351
Sam.
247
00:12:54,471 --> 00:12:56,072
I don't know.
I don't remember.
248
00:12:57,473 --> 00:13:00,114
And what about this?
Her shortfall?
249
00:13:00,234 --> 00:13:02,835
It's now 11,000.
That's...that's more than doubled!
250
00:13:02,955 --> 00:13:05,757
You're selling everyone stamps
with a picture of the Queen on them.
251
00:13:05,877 --> 00:13:07,117
And we love the Queen, don't we?
252
00:13:09,639 --> 00:13:10,559
Is she alright?
253
00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:13,280
Yeah, yeah,
it's just all these delays,
254
00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:15,281
they're doing both our heads in.
255
00:13:17,242 --> 00:13:20,938
Jas, I think
we should get a medical report.
256
00:13:21,058 --> 00:13:24,300
When cases go on and on like this,
it can be hard for the defendant.
257
00:13:26,741 --> 00:13:27,742
She's fine.
258
00:13:34,345 --> 00:13:36,026
I'll just go
and see if they're ready for us.
259
00:13:37,706 --> 00:13:40,628
(INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC)
260
00:13:45,230 --> 00:13:46,351
Everyone's eyes are on me.
261
00:13:50,473 --> 00:13:51,473
It's OK.
262
00:13:55,475 --> 00:13:56,796
(LINE TRILLS)
263
00:14:06,841 --> 00:14:07,801
Sam, can you get the phone?
264
00:14:07,921 --> 00:14:08,922
(PHONE RINGS)
265
00:14:12,483 --> 00:14:15,605
Hello?
Oh! It's Jo.
266
00:14:15,725 --> 00:14:17,726
Gosh, you had me worried there.
267
00:14:17,846 --> 00:14:20,007
I'm just checking in on you.
Are you OK?
268
00:14:22,288 --> 00:14:23,329
I'm up and down.
269
00:14:24,649 --> 00:14:26,130
Are you getting out at all?
270
00:14:27,331 --> 00:14:28,971
Oh, I can't go out.
271
00:14:29,092 --> 00:14:31,613
Not to the gurdwara
and not even to the supermarket.
272
00:14:33,414 --> 00:14:34,414
I see people I know,
273
00:14:34,534 --> 00:14:36,415
and sometimes
they look surprised to see me,
274
00:14:36,535 --> 00:14:37,536
and I wonder...
275
00:14:39,056 --> 00:14:41,378
do they think
I've gone to prison already.
276
00:14:41,498 --> 00:14:42,498
Oh, Sam.
277
00:14:43,819 --> 00:14:47,501
If I just had the money
for a stupid train ticket...
278
00:14:47,621 --> 00:14:49,942
I wouldn't be much fun for you, Jo.
279
00:14:50,062 --> 00:14:51,342
Oh, god!
280
00:14:51,462 --> 00:14:52,423
Sam? What Is It?
281
00:14:53,784 --> 00:14:55,464
It's OK...it's OK.
I'm alright, Jo.
282
00:14:56,625 --> 00:14:57,585
It's just the postman.
283
00:15:02,228 --> 00:15:07,510
Every time the door goes
I think it's them come to get me.
284
00:15:07,630 --> 00:15:08,631
Oh...
285
00:15:09,791 --> 00:15:11,432
Oh, you poor thing.
286
00:15:17,635 --> 00:15:19,436
I had no idea this was happening
to other people.
287
00:15:19,556 --> 00:15:21,157
I thought I was the only one.
288
00:15:21,277 --> 00:15:22,918
There were nights
I was just sobbing.
289
00:15:23,038 --> 00:15:25,919
I didn't know what to do,
how to get out of this mess.
290
00:15:26,039 --> 00:15:28,000
It sounds like
it was very traumatic for you.
291
00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:30,121
Well, it's not just me
that it's traumatic for.
292
00:15:30,241 --> 00:15:32,042
I just think that the Post Office
293
00:15:32,162 --> 00:15:33,683
needs to investigate this.
294
00:15:33,803 --> 00:15:36,164
There's just got to be
something else going on
295
00:15:36,284 --> 00:15:39,366
because it can't be happening
to this many people.
296
00:15:39,486 --> 00:15:41,687
Thank you.
Jo was great!
297
00:15:41,807 --> 00:15:43,168
She's a natural!
(CHUCKLES)
298
00:15:43,288 --> 00:15:45,489
Yeah, but who's listening?
299
00:15:45,609 --> 00:15:46,569
So, Arbuthnot, how concerned are you
300
00:15:46,689 --> 00:15:48,490
about these allegations
against the Post Office?
301
00:15:48,610 --> 00:15:50,852
I'm very concerned about this.
302
00:15:50,972 --> 00:15:52,772
Cases seem to be cropping up
all over the country.
303
00:15:52,893 --> 00:15:55,134
Who knew a Tory MP could be so nice!
304
00:15:55,254 --> 00:15:58,015
The Post Office
have been I think pretty hardnosed
305
00:15:58,135 --> 00:15:59,616
in the way
they've taken the cases to court...
306
00:15:59,736 --> 00:16:03,538
Trouble is,
nobody watches local news.
307
00:16:03,658 --> 00:16:05,699
..and I think their bosses
need to think again
308
00:16:05,819 --> 00:16:07,059
and be more sympathetic.
309
00:16:07,180 --> 00:16:08,460
(PHONES RINGING)
310
00:16:08,580 --> 00:16:11,502
(TENSE MUSIC)
311
00:16:30,711 --> 00:16:33,632
(MURMURS)
312
00:16:35,794 --> 00:16:40,836
There are a tiny number
of ex-subpostmasters
313
00:16:40,956 --> 00:16:43,037
who appear to be making
distinct allegations
314
00:16:43,157 --> 00:16:46,039
with respect to the operation
of the Horizon system.
315
00:16:46,159 --> 00:16:49,520
But in two of the cases
the individuals have in the past
316
00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:51,281
pleaded guilty to false accounting.
317
00:16:52,602 --> 00:16:54,363
I have written back
to the Member of Parliament
318
00:16:54,483 --> 00:16:56,924
making clear that Post Office Ltd
319
00:16:57,044 --> 00:17:00,045
does not accept
any of the allegations
320
00:17:00,165 --> 00:17:01,326
that are being made
321
00:17:01,446 --> 00:17:03,847
and will robustly
defend its position
322
00:17:03,967 --> 00:17:06,969
if any civil action
is mounted against it.
323
00:17:10,010 --> 00:17:11,891
Freedom of Information
324
00:17:12,011 --> 00:17:13,252
just when you think
you've cracked it,
325
00:17:13,372 --> 00:17:16,093
they come up with a new trick
to keep us in the dark!
326
00:17:16,213 --> 00:17:17,134
Listen to this.
327
00:17:17,254 --> 00:17:21,136
You're only allowed a question,
to ask a question,
328
00:17:21,256 --> 00:17:25,218
that will take one person
less than 18 hours to research.
329
00:17:25,338 --> 00:17:26,939
I mean, what?
330
00:17:29,300 --> 00:17:31,701
What do you think?
Hey?
331
00:17:35,863 --> 00:17:37,384
Trying to have a life here, Alan.
332
00:17:49,670 --> 00:17:52,911
I just want to be able to take you
333
00:17:53,031 --> 00:17:55,793
on holiday again, Suzanne.
334
00:17:55,913 --> 00:18:01,676
You know, proper holiday abroad,
not just camping.
335
00:18:03,997 --> 00:18:08,239
And there's still half of Snowdonia
waiting to be climbed.
336
00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:15,322
A, the Post Office
has taken all our money.
337
00:18:16,963 --> 00:18:20,605
B, my knees are way too old
for Snowdonia.
338
00:18:22,246 --> 00:18:25,607
And C, you can't possibly go
on holiday,
339
00:18:25,727 --> 00:18:28,769
you're too busy campaigning
morning noon and night.
340
00:18:31,250 --> 00:18:33,491
This is all taking too long.
341
00:18:39,769 --> 00:18:42,688
(WOMAN SPEAKS INDISTINCTLY ON TV)
342
00:18:53,245 --> 00:18:56,244
Hiya, are you OK?
343
00:18:56,364 --> 00:18:57,364
Sorry, I'm late.
344
00:19:02,083 --> 00:19:03,962
Got held up, Sam.
345
00:19:04,082 --> 00:19:05,082
Dev's gone to...
346
00:19:07,521 --> 00:19:08,561
It's OK.
Sam?
347
00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:11,200
Sam? What...what have you...
348
00:19:13,279 --> 00:19:14,279
Sam!
349
00:19:16,039 --> 00:19:17,398
It's OK. It's OK.
Sam, what have you done?
350
00:19:17,518 --> 00:19:18,758
Why have you done this? Uh?
351
00:19:18,878 --> 00:19:20,117
It's not fair...
352
00:19:20,237 --> 00:19:21,397
Sam, look at me! What...
353
00:19:22,717 --> 00:19:23,956
I had to do something.
354
00:19:24,076 --> 00:19:25,476
999 emergency,
which service do you require?
355
00:19:25,596 --> 00:19:27,036
Yeah, I need an ambulance please!
356
00:19:27,155 --> 00:19:32,354
It's 45 Falfield Road,
Walsall WS2 9WB.
357
00:19:32,474 --> 00:19:33,874
B for bravo.
358
00:19:44,551 --> 00:19:47,590
I don't want to do it.
They're here to help you.
359
00:19:47,710 --> 00:19:48,629
Shh.
360
00:19:48,749 --> 00:19:50,229
I tried everything, Jas!
361
00:19:50,349 --> 00:19:51,829
I know, I know.
I tried everything!
362
00:19:51,949 --> 00:19:53,188
I know.
I worked really...
363
00:19:53,308 --> 00:19:54,348
It's OK, I'm here.
364
00:19:55,987 --> 00:19:57,787
Hey, can you stop staring at us!
365
00:19:57,907 --> 00:19:59,187
Just mind your own business!
366
00:20:01,586 --> 00:20:03,745
Sam, come on. It's OK, Sam.
367
00:20:05,705 --> 00:20:06,904
What's the next one?
368
00:20:07,024 --> 00:20:08,784
Er, it's Candy.
Candy.
369
00:20:08,904 --> 00:20:10,063
OK, see if you can find it.
370
00:20:11,583 --> 00:20:12,983
He's doing well, yeah.
371
00:20:13,103 --> 00:20:15,782
He'll be doing Spelling Bee soon.
(CHUCKLES)
372
00:20:15,902 --> 00:20:17,141
Hey?
373
00:20:17,261 --> 00:20:18,541
(DOOR KNOCKING)
374
00:20:20,261 --> 00:20:22,700
Hello. Mr Singh?
375
00:20:22,820 --> 00:20:23,780
Yeah, yeah.
376
00:20:23,900 --> 00:20:25,419
Can I have a word?
377
00:20:25,539 --> 00:20:29,058
Yeah, um, two minutes
and then burgers, OK?
378
00:20:34,097 --> 00:20:35,736
Hey, how are you doing?
379
00:20:35,856 --> 00:20:38,016
I want to stress, she'll be sedated.
380
00:20:38,136 --> 00:20:39,495
She won't feel anything.
381
00:20:39,615 --> 00:20:41,615
ECT had a lot of bad press
at one point
382
00:20:41,735 --> 00:20:44,214
but we continue to find it
very useful
383
00:20:44,334 --> 00:20:48,453
in giving relief to patients
as severely depressed as Saman.
384
00:20:50,772 --> 00:20:53,211
And nothing else
we've tried has worked, so...
385
00:20:56,650 --> 00:20:58,930
Just don't go home
and google it, Mr Singh.
386
00:21:03,209 --> 00:21:04,808
We'll talk more later.
Yeah.
387
00:21:11,326 --> 00:21:14,245
(PENSIVE MUSIC)
388
00:21:18,764 --> 00:21:20,604
Like you're not going to google it!
389
00:21:20,724 --> 00:21:22,483
I know! It's mad.
390
00:21:24,243 --> 00:21:25,682
But you know the worst thing, Jo?
391
00:21:28,681 --> 00:21:31,321
If I'd have let her carry on
pleading guilty
392
00:21:31,441 --> 00:21:33,720
like she wanted to
in the first place...
393
00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:37,959
Alright, yeah,
she might have gone to prison but...
394
00:21:40,238 --> 00:21:41,598
she'd be out by now.
395
00:21:41,718 --> 00:21:43,317
Oh, Jas...
396
00:21:44,597 --> 00:21:45,957
My boy would have a mother.
397
00:21:49,356 --> 00:21:50,595
And Sam would be free.
398
00:21:56,674 --> 00:21:57,633
Treat.
399
00:21:57,753 --> 00:22:00,672
(INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC)
400
00:22:21,667 --> 00:22:23,546
The problem
is relatively very small.
401
00:22:23,666 --> 00:22:25,466
Very few complaints.
402
00:22:25,585 --> 00:22:29,144
But this is a very serious matter
for the Post Office
403
00:22:29,264 --> 00:22:31,224
whose business
rests on our reputation
404
00:22:31,344 --> 00:22:32,943
for being trustworthy.
405
00:22:33,063 --> 00:22:35,503
Well, we all represent constituents
406
00:22:35,623 --> 00:22:39,342
who tell us that your helpline
is of little value,
407
00:22:39,462 --> 00:22:42,461
that the training you offer
is minimal.
408
00:22:42,581 --> 00:22:45,420
Angela is our Head
of Network Services.
409
00:22:45,540 --> 00:22:46,780
Thank you. Um...
410
00:22:48,099 --> 00:22:51,018
Well, the helpline
and support are there.
411
00:22:51,138 --> 00:22:53,818
Now, whether the staff
take it up or not,
412
00:22:53,938 --> 00:22:55,817
that...that's another matter.
413
00:22:55,937 --> 00:22:58,336
Mrs Vennells,
is the Post Office saying
414
00:22:58,456 --> 00:23:02,295
that Horizon is 100% foolproof?
415
00:23:02,415 --> 00:23:05,814
Because that would make it
the first perfect software system
416
00:23:05,934 --> 00:23:07,334
ever implemented by government.
417
00:23:08,533 --> 00:23:10,773
The system is robust.
418
00:23:10,893 --> 00:23:13,252
Gentlemen, we have nothing to hide.
419
00:23:13,372 --> 00:23:17,171
Indeed, we're ready to mount
and fund an independent review.
420
00:23:18,851 --> 00:23:19,850
Oh, that's marvellous!
421
00:23:19,970 --> 00:23:21,410
And I'm sure Mr Bates
422
00:23:21,530 --> 00:23:23,609
and the Justice
for Subpostermasters Alliance
423
00:23:23,729 --> 00:23:25,249
will be thrilled
to get involved with that.
424
00:23:27,688 --> 00:23:30,607
(TENSE MUSIC)
425
00:23:38,805 --> 00:23:40,404
Bet you've missed me, Susan.
426
00:23:40,524 --> 00:23:42,844
How is life
in the sleepy old Post Office?
427
00:23:42,964 --> 00:23:45,123
Sleepy? I wish.
428
00:23:45,243 --> 00:23:47,363
High finance misses you, kid!
429
00:23:47,483 --> 00:23:49,762
I'm a proud public servant now.
430
00:23:49,882 --> 00:23:53,281
Well, I'll wager it's not half
as much fun as your old life,
431
00:23:53,401 --> 00:23:56,400
chasing down villains
and fraudsters with me.
432
00:23:57,640 --> 00:23:58,639
Susan?
433
00:24:00,679 --> 00:24:02,358
Is that what we're doing here?
434
00:24:02,478 --> 00:24:04,478
I don't know.
That's why I hired you.
435
00:24:09,236 --> 00:24:10,196
Ah.
436
00:24:10,316 --> 00:24:12,795
Ah, Angela Van Den Bogerd
is our Head of Network Services.
437
00:24:12,915 --> 00:24:14,875
Bob Rutherford from Second Sight.
438
00:24:14,995 --> 00:24:17,714
Angela, nice to meet you.
Here to help.
439
00:24:19,314 --> 00:24:21,873
We've pulled a dozen files
for you to look at.
440
00:24:21,993 --> 00:24:24,112
It's all the cases
the MPs have been pushing.
441
00:24:24,232 --> 00:24:26,752
Anything else you want though,
we can provide.
442
00:24:26,871 --> 00:24:28,471
Accounts, procedures, backgrounds.
443
00:24:28,591 --> 00:24:29,591
I'll draw up a list.
444
00:24:30,990 --> 00:24:33,470
And I'd like to visit Fujitsu
in Bracknell.
445
00:24:34,629 --> 00:24:36,509
No problem.
446
00:24:36,629 --> 00:24:38,788
Oh... are...are you not staying?
447
00:24:38,908 --> 00:24:40,388
Knowing you of old, Bob,
448
00:24:40,508 --> 00:24:42,427
I imagine you're itching
to get on the road.
449
00:24:43,547 --> 00:24:44,587
Thank you, all.
450
00:24:46,546 --> 00:24:49,465
Alan, you can't go
and meet him on your own
451
00:24:49,585 --> 00:24:52,304
because how will you know
what to ask this investigator?
452
00:24:52,424 --> 00:24:54,064
And because she's my neighbour
453
00:24:54,184 --> 00:24:56,743
and she's really nice
and she wants to help.
454
00:24:56,863 --> 00:24:58,463
Kay Linnell.
455
00:24:58,583 --> 00:25:01,062
Past master and liveryman.
456
00:25:01,182 --> 00:25:03,821
Kay Linnell, forensic accountant!
457
00:25:03,941 --> 00:25:06,580
Alan, bite her hand off!
458
00:25:06,700 --> 00:25:07,700
Alan?
459
00:25:10,219 --> 00:25:11,299
Alan Bates?
460
00:25:14,218 --> 00:25:15,178
Kay Linnell.
461
00:25:15,298 --> 00:25:16,378
Past Master and Liveryman
462
00:25:16,498 --> 00:25:18,977
of the Worshipful Company
of Arbitrators.
463
00:25:19,097 --> 00:25:20,017
You've been looking me up!
464
00:25:20,137 --> 00:25:24,095
And Board of the Inland
Revenue's former Chief Prosecuting
465
00:25:24,215 --> 00:25:26,055
and Investigating Accountant.
466
00:25:26,175 --> 00:25:27,454
Now, that was a fun job.
467
00:25:28,694 --> 00:25:29,694
Shall we?
468
00:25:31,413 --> 00:25:32,533
May I underline that
469
00:25:32,653 --> 00:25:34,932
although the Post Office
has agreed to fund
470
00:25:35,052 --> 00:25:37,132
this independent investigation,
471
00:25:37,252 --> 00:25:39,691
Mr Rutherford's organisation,
Second Sight,
472
00:25:39,811 --> 00:25:45,249
will be working for us, the MPs,
and therefore indirectly for you,
473
00:25:45,369 --> 00:25:47,449
Justice for Subpostmasters Alliance.
474
00:25:48,569 --> 00:25:52,727
So, Alan, Kay,
what would you like to know?
475
00:25:54,327 --> 00:25:55,447
Well, I'd like to know exactly
476
00:25:55,567 --> 00:25:57,766
what makes you think
you're qualified to do this job.
477
00:25:57,886 --> 00:26:01,605
Well, I'm a forensic accountant
of many years' experience...
478
00:26:01,725 --> 00:26:04,564
I don't doubt
your paper qualifications,
479
00:26:04,684 --> 00:26:07,483
Mr Rutherford,
I have them here in front of me.
480
00:26:07,603 --> 00:26:10,003
But I see nothing to persuade me
481
00:26:10,123 --> 00:26:13,362
that Second Sight
is remotely capable
482
00:26:13,482 --> 00:26:16,281
of producing
a truly independent report.
483
00:26:16,401 --> 00:26:18,840
One that's ready to bite
the hand that feeds you.
484
00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:21,079
Bob Rutherford
is a Member of the Association
485
00:26:21,199 --> 00:26:22,959
of Certified Fraud Examiners.
486
00:26:23,079 --> 00:26:24,718
He has led
hundreds of investigations
487
00:26:24,838 --> 00:26:27,558
all over the world
into banking fraud, corruption,
488
00:26:27,678 --> 00:26:29,117
rogue traders, subprime mortgages...
489
00:26:29,237 --> 00:26:30,397
Doesn't answer my question.
490
00:26:31,716 --> 00:26:32,996
How can we be sure
491
00:26:33,116 --> 00:26:36,475
you will investigate fairly
and independently?
492
00:26:36,595 --> 00:26:40,114
Because the people
who suggested me know me of old.
493
00:26:40,234 --> 00:26:41,514
And that they want to hire me
494
00:26:41,634 --> 00:26:44,073
because they know
what I like to do best.
495
00:26:44,193 --> 00:26:47,632
Which is to clear innocent people
who look guilty.
496
00:26:49,192 --> 00:26:50,751
I still don't see
how we can trust him
497
00:26:50,871 --> 00:26:53,230
when he's taking Post Office money?
498
00:26:53,350 --> 00:26:54,430
Well, you can't pay him!
499
00:26:54,550 --> 00:26:56,350
I can't pay you either!
500
00:26:56,470 --> 00:26:58,149
I'll help in my spare time.
501
00:26:58,269 --> 00:27:01,188
What I really need
is lawyers who'll work for nothing.
502
00:27:01,308 --> 00:27:02,708
(LAUGHS)
503
00:27:02,828 --> 00:27:05,947
One day, you'll find
your precious lawyers
504
00:27:06,067 --> 00:27:08,026
and we'll get this scandal
into court.
505
00:27:08,146 --> 00:27:09,706
But we'll need evidence
506
00:27:09,826 --> 00:27:13,185
which mortals like us haven't a hope
of getting our hands on.
507
00:27:13,305 --> 00:27:16,704
But Bob's outfit, Second Sight,
508
00:27:16,824 --> 00:27:19,943
they'll have access
to seven years of raw data.
509
00:27:21,263 --> 00:27:26,141
This Bob, he can't just look
at individual cases, though.
510
00:27:26,261 --> 00:27:28,541
He has to look at Horizon
as a whole.
511
00:27:28,661 --> 00:27:29,820
As a system.
512
00:27:29,940 --> 00:27:33,579
Am I to take it you're happy
to support his investigation?
513
00:27:33,699 --> 00:27:36,538
Well, being
as it's the only one we've got.
514
00:27:46,456 --> 00:27:48,895
When I first came to the Post Office
515
00:27:49,015 --> 00:27:52,614
they were introducing chip and PIN
and it never worked properly.
516
00:27:54,013 --> 00:27:59,652
The base unit, the Horizon computer,
517
00:27:59,772 --> 00:28:03,291
whatever you call it, the thing
that sits under the counter,
518
00:28:03,411 --> 00:28:05,530
I thought of it
as like an alien thing.
519
00:28:06,690 --> 00:28:08,809
Sometimes engineers
would come from Fujitsu
520
00:28:08,929 --> 00:28:10,929
with their clever badges on.
521
00:28:11,049 --> 00:28:13,688
Um, I never had any idea
what they were doing.
522
00:28:18,846 --> 00:28:22,046
This is probably
a really stupid question, Bob.
523
00:28:22,166 --> 00:28:24,165
There are no such things
as stupid questions,
524
00:28:24,285 --> 00:28:25,365
only stupid answers.
525
00:28:29,284 --> 00:28:32,643
That 36,000 pounds
I'm supposed to have lost,
526
00:28:34,282 --> 00:28:36,122
where did it go?
527
00:28:36,242 --> 00:28:38,121
I haven't got it.
528
00:28:38,241 --> 00:28:39,641
So, who has?
529
00:28:39,761 --> 00:28:41,680
(INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC)
530
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:45,319
I don't know but I'm gonna find out.
531
00:28:49,989 --> 00:28:52,909
(INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC)
532
00:29:02,390 --> 00:29:03,590
It's a Bed and Breakfast now.
533
00:29:05,590 --> 00:29:06,710
We're private people, Bob.
534
00:29:07,831 --> 00:29:09,151
This was our family home.
535
00:29:11,511 --> 00:29:13,791
But the Post Office
gave us no option,
536
00:29:13,911 --> 00:29:16,431
no other way of making a living.
537
00:29:16,551 --> 00:29:17,552
Thank you.
538
00:29:19,712 --> 00:29:20,712
Cheers, love.
539
00:29:24,472 --> 00:29:27,233
My wife has had it
so much harder than me.
540
00:29:30,513 --> 00:29:31,793
Susan was in charge
541
00:29:31,913 --> 00:29:33,553
while I was away
on Federation business.
542
00:29:36,194 --> 00:29:38,514
She never told me so I had no idea
she was in trouble...
543
00:29:40,034 --> 00:29:41,954
even though at least half my work
in the Federation
544
00:29:42,074 --> 00:29:43,194
was Horizon related by then.
545
00:29:45,995 --> 00:29:46,995
I said to her...
546
00:29:48,995 --> 00:29:50,515
"You've ruined my fucking career.
547
00:29:52,355 --> 00:29:53,635
You've destroyed our business."
548
00:29:56,396 --> 00:29:58,516
Mr Rudkin,
please don't feel obliged to...
549
00:29:58,636 --> 00:30:00,516
I said...
550
00:30:00,636 --> 00:30:01,876
I said I'd divorce her.
551
00:30:07,677 --> 00:30:12,357
Now, they punished my wife,
who never stole a penny piece...
552
00:30:13,637 --> 00:30:14,918
just because I got inside Fujitsu
553
00:30:15,038 --> 00:30:16,358
and saw something
that I shouldn't have.
554
00:30:24,319 --> 00:30:28,439
I think
what I had was a computer bug.
555
00:30:28,559 --> 00:30:32,719
They've called it
a 'Callendar Square Bug',
556
00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:33,800
I can't be sure.
557
00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:39,040
But it was real, it was real.
Other people had it.
558
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:42,801
You know, I tried...
I tried to tell the court that...
559
00:30:44,401 --> 00:30:50,201
I just kept sort of saying it wrong,
and the more I tried, the more...
560
00:30:53,642 --> 00:30:54,642
I can't explain it.
561
00:30:57,642 --> 00:30:58,642
It was like...
562
00:31:00,722 --> 00:31:06,043
I was on the edge
of a great dark hole...
563
00:31:09,523 --> 00:31:11,804
I was... I was just falling into it.
564
00:31:13,884 --> 00:31:17,404
And the thing is,
I knew that they were lying,
565
00:31:17,524 --> 00:31:19,404
and I knew I was telling the truth.
566
00:31:21,245 --> 00:31:24,685
And I just thought,
this is British justice,
567
00:31:24,805 --> 00:31:26,725
that's all I've got to do
is tell the truth.
568
00:31:27,885 --> 00:31:28,805
Ah.
569
00:31:31,406 --> 00:31:32,326
I'm sorry!
570
00:31:32,446 --> 00:31:33,406
Oh, no, no, no!
Sorry...
571
00:31:33,526 --> 00:31:34,726
I didn't want to upset you...
God, no! Don't be.
572
00:31:34,846 --> 00:31:36,286
..I was just trying to tell you...
573
00:31:36,406 --> 00:31:37,406
No.
574
00:31:39,687 --> 00:31:41,647
No, it's just the more of you
people I meet,
575
00:31:41,767 --> 00:31:44,807
the less I know
how you're all still standing.
576
00:31:51,208 --> 00:31:52,168
Yeah.
577
00:31:52,288 --> 00:31:53,368
Susan!
578
00:31:53,488 --> 00:31:54,928
Am I expecting you today?
579
00:31:56,088 --> 00:31:58,649
We need to speak now.
580
00:31:58,769 --> 00:32:00,489
Always good to see an old friend,
581
00:32:00,609 --> 00:32:02,249
but I do have a diary.
582
00:32:02,369 --> 00:32:03,489
Not today, you don't.
583
00:32:05,849 --> 00:32:06,809
Lee Castleton.
584
00:32:08,450 --> 00:32:09,570
You know, the one you hounded
585
00:32:09,690 --> 00:32:11,170
all the way
to the Royal Courts of Justice...
586
00:32:11,290 --> 00:32:12,250
That was my predecessor.
587
00:32:12,370 --> 00:32:13,810
..when you knew
he didn't have any money?
588
00:32:15,050 --> 00:32:18,131
You have humiliated him,
you have bankrupted him.
589
00:32:18,251 --> 00:32:19,251
And I don't get it.
590
00:32:20,451 --> 00:32:23,051
Yes, I...I don't know
why we did that.
591
00:32:23,171 --> 00:32:24,371
Well, let me suggest two reasons.
592
00:32:24,491 --> 00:32:26,131
One, you're stupid.
593
00:32:26,251 --> 00:32:27,772
Or two, you want to rub his nose
in the dirt,
594
00:32:27,892 --> 00:32:29,132
use him to frighten off
everyone else.
595
00:32:29,252 --> 00:32:31,052
I wasn't even here then.
596
00:32:31,172 --> 00:32:33,252
Oh, please.
What is wrong with you people?
597
00:32:35,012 --> 00:32:37,053
Are we ever to see the PIN pad
598
00:32:37,173 --> 00:32:40,533
that Mrs Kaur alleges
was responsible for her shortfalls?
599
00:32:40,653 --> 00:32:42,293
Your Honour, I can now confirm
600
00:32:42,413 --> 00:32:43,573
that Post Office Limited
601
00:32:43,693 --> 00:32:46,534
is unable to produce
the PIN pad in question.
602
00:32:46,654 --> 00:32:47,774
Because?
603
00:32:47,894 --> 00:32:50,734
I'm told it was sent away for repair
604
00:32:50,854 --> 00:32:53,454
and has been reprogrammed.
605
00:32:53,574 --> 00:32:54,894
So, it was faulty?
606
00:32:56,255 --> 00:32:58,175
In those circumstances, your Honour,
607
00:32:58,295 --> 00:33:01,015
the prosecution offers no evidence.
608
00:33:01,135 --> 00:33:04,815
This matter has dragged on
for three years.
609
00:33:04,935 --> 00:33:06,976
I direct that a not guilty verdict
610
00:33:07,096 --> 00:33:10,016
be entered on all 36 counts
on the indictment.
611
00:33:11,176 --> 00:33:14,496
Mrs Kaur, you are free to leave.
612
00:33:14,616 --> 00:33:15,697
(INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC)
613
00:33:15,817 --> 00:33:16,777
Court rise.
614
00:33:28,138 --> 00:33:31,538
Hey. See, you were right.
615
00:33:31,658 --> 00:33:33,018
It was faulty!
616
00:33:33,138 --> 00:33:35,459
Sam, three years of our lives,
but it's over now.
617
00:33:35,579 --> 00:33:37,059
OK?
No.
618
00:33:37,179 --> 00:33:39,459
Because they won't ever put
another picture in the paper,
619
00:33:39,579 --> 00:33:41,099
will they, to say I'm innocent.
620
00:33:44,540 --> 00:33:45,540
Come on.
621
00:33:48,580 --> 00:33:49,940
We're making progress.
622
00:33:50,060 --> 00:33:53,821
Now the investigation
is properly up and running,
623
00:33:53,941 --> 00:33:55,741
I just thought enough go-betweens,
624
00:33:55,861 --> 00:33:57,741
thought it a good idea
to bring you both together.
625
00:33:57,861 --> 00:34:01,101
I do hope it's been useful
for both of you.
626
00:34:01,221 --> 00:34:03,502
Terrific idea.
Thank you, James.
627
00:34:03,622 --> 00:34:05,622
And, Alan, I do hope you
will take away from this
628
00:34:05,742 --> 00:34:06,942
a sure understanding
629
00:34:07,062 --> 00:34:10,022
that Post Office
is as fully committed as you are
630
00:34:10,142 --> 00:34:11,823
to resolving this situation.
631
00:34:12,983 --> 00:34:13,983
Thank you.
632
00:34:15,903 --> 00:34:18,863
And, um, if there's anything else?
633
00:34:18,983 --> 00:34:19,943
Er, no. I think...
634
00:34:20,063 --> 00:34:22,304
Actually, er...
635
00:34:22,424 --> 00:34:25,824
why are you only looking
at 12 cases?
636
00:34:27,104 --> 00:34:28,984
Well, they are the 12 cases
637
00:34:29,104 --> 00:34:31,745
put forward
by Members of Parliament.
638
00:34:31,865 --> 00:34:33,545
All the cases where we are alert
639
00:34:33,665 --> 00:34:36,505
to the possibility
of a miscarriage of justice.
640
00:34:36,625 --> 00:34:38,745
There are a lot more though, Paula.
641
00:34:38,865 --> 00:34:42,746
Victims who were never charged
with any criminal offence,
642
00:34:42,866 --> 00:34:46,826
but perhaps your people
haven't told you about that?
643
00:34:46,946 --> 00:34:48,386
About all the destitution?
644
00:34:48,506 --> 00:34:52,827
People sleeping in their cars,
losing their house, their health?
645
00:34:52,947 --> 00:34:54,787
Surely, you'd like to hear
from them too?
646
00:35:01,788 --> 00:35:03,708
Is that your throwaway exit line?
647
00:35:05,668 --> 00:35:06,988
I'm just thinking, you know,
648
00:35:07,108 --> 00:35:08,508
if you knew the full story
649
00:35:08,628 --> 00:35:10,709
you wouldn't want that
on your conscience so...
650
00:35:12,069 --> 00:35:14,989
Well, shall I suggest a few names?
651
00:35:18,750 --> 00:35:19,790
Well, yes, um...
652
00:35:21,670 --> 00:35:23,030
good idea.
653
00:35:23,150 --> 00:35:24,790
These are what I have here.
654
00:35:31,670 --> 00:35:32,910
(PHONE RINGS)
655
00:35:35,630 --> 00:35:37,070
Bob. Good to hear from you.
656
00:35:37,190 --> 00:35:38,150
Hi there.
657
00:35:38,270 --> 00:35:40,470
The day you went to Fujitsu,
658
00:35:40,590 --> 00:35:42,471
are you sure
it was the 19th of August?
659
00:35:42,591 --> 00:35:45,631
2008. Yeah, never forget that.
660
00:35:45,751 --> 00:35:47,151
The last day of our old life.
661
00:35:47,271 --> 00:35:49,311
Michael, you're not down
as a visitor
662
00:35:49,431 --> 00:35:50,751
on their security logs.
663
00:35:52,191 --> 00:35:54,912
The Post Office are denying
that your visit ever happened.
664
00:35:55,032 --> 00:35:57,552
Course they are.
Can you prove it?
665
00:36:01,712 --> 00:36:03,432
Michael, can you prove
you were there?
666
00:36:05,233 --> 00:36:07,953
Bob, it was four years ago!
667
00:36:08,073 --> 00:36:10,033
I don't work
for the Post Office anymore.
668
00:36:19,634 --> 00:36:21,354
There we are!
669
00:36:21,474 --> 00:36:23,914
Look at your new best friend
pretending she can do a proper job.
670
00:36:25,554 --> 00:36:27,955
It's lovely to be here, thank you.
671
00:36:28,075 --> 00:36:29,235
Paula, how often do you get to visit
672
00:36:29,355 --> 00:36:30,675
a place like this?
673
00:36:30,795 --> 00:36:32,795
Probably once a month if I can.
674
00:36:32,915 --> 00:36:34,355
Oh, puh-lease!
What kind of reaction do you get?
675
00:36:34,475 --> 00:36:37,075
I mean, you're the big boss.
Do you think they get intimidated?
676
00:36:37,195 --> 00:36:39,836
No, this is the post office!
677
00:36:39,956 --> 00:36:41,476
I get treated the same
as everybody else
678
00:36:41,596 --> 00:36:43,356
and they tell me how it is.
679
00:36:43,476 --> 00:36:45,076
And what's it like
being the chief executive
680
00:36:45,196 --> 00:36:47,116
of a major company?
681
00:36:47,236 --> 00:36:49,677
Well, I think you can
tell by the smile on my face
682
00:36:49,797 --> 00:36:51,877
that it's...It's great.
683
00:36:51,997 --> 00:36:54,477
Retail is detail...
Shut up!
684
00:36:54,597 --> 00:36:56,717
Shut up, you silly cow!
685
00:36:56,837 --> 00:36:58,557
Come on,
come and get your breakfast.
686
00:37:05,078 --> 00:37:06,598
I shall present evidence to show
687
00:37:06,718 --> 00:37:09,678
that the Post Office
has made failures in support,
688
00:37:09,798 --> 00:37:11,198
investigation, training
689
00:37:11,318 --> 00:37:14,199
and I've found clear evidence
of two bugs.
690
00:37:14,319 --> 00:37:15,319
Two?
691
00:37:15,439 --> 00:37:19,159
We gave you 47 cases. 47.
692
00:37:19,279 --> 00:37:23,239
And this draft report of yours
only mentions three.
693
00:37:23,359 --> 00:37:26,680
Where's Michael Rudkin who can prove
they're lying about remote access?
694
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:28,080
He can't prove it, actually.
695
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:29,160
Well, Members of Parliament
696
00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:31,280
would certainly like to see
more individual cases.
697
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:35,481
Ah, the...the point
is not individual cases!
698
00:37:35,601 --> 00:37:39,441
The point is total systemic failure
which you don't mention.
699
00:37:39,561 --> 00:37:41,801
We haven't found
hard evidence of that either.
700
00:37:41,921 --> 00:37:45,281
Well, what would you call
the endless PIN pad anomalies
701
00:37:45,401 --> 00:37:48,402
and shortfalls doubling
before people's eyes
702
00:37:48,522 --> 00:37:50,802
and overnight so-called corrections?
703
00:37:50,922 --> 00:37:53,082
Well, there are 68,000 users
704
00:37:53,202 --> 00:37:55,602
processing six million
transactions a day.
705
00:37:55,722 --> 00:37:57,643
Well, this is just the gospel
according to the Post Office!
706
00:37:57,763 --> 00:37:58,683
Alan...
707
00:37:58,803 --> 00:37:59,723
For it to be systemic,
708
00:37:59,843 --> 00:38:02,683
that would have to mean
that the whole network was affected
709
00:38:02,803 --> 00:38:03,803
and it...it just isn't.
710
00:38:03,923 --> 00:38:05,803
What about the way
they abuse their power
711
00:38:05,923 --> 00:38:08,323
and prosecute people
without investigating properly?
712
00:38:08,443 --> 00:38:09,964
And then...
713
00:38:10,084 --> 00:38:13,444
and then terminate them
on three months' notice
714
00:38:13,564 --> 00:38:14,764
and walk away
with their life savings?
715
00:38:14,884 --> 00:38:16,564
Is that not a systemic failure?
716
00:38:16,684 --> 00:38:18,364
We all agreed from the beginning
717
00:38:18,484 --> 00:38:20,645
that the report should be accurate
and evidence based.
718
00:38:20,765 --> 00:38:22,845
The Post Office
has left a trail of destruction
719
00:38:22,965 --> 00:38:25,765
ever since the day
that Horizon was introduced,
720
00:38:25,885 --> 00:38:27,165
and we're just sitting around
721
00:38:27,285 --> 00:38:30,925
chatting about it
while they're still ruining lives.
722
00:38:31,045 --> 00:38:32,166
Systemically!
723
00:38:34,246 --> 00:38:39,166
Ah, I agree to this.
I must have been mad.
724
00:38:39,286 --> 00:38:40,846
Welshmen with bees in their bonnets.
725
00:38:42,006 --> 00:38:43,327
I was born in Liverpool!
726
00:38:44,807 --> 00:38:47,887
He's an accountant, Alan.
He's naturally cautious.
727
00:38:48,007 --> 00:38:50,887
Cautious like you?
I can be cautious!
728
00:38:51,007 --> 00:38:53,167
It wasn't me in there
banging the table!
729
00:38:54,528 --> 00:38:56,408
I've never seen you angry before.
730
00:38:56,528 --> 00:38:58,408
All that grandstanding, you mean?
731
00:38:58,528 --> 00:38:59,728
I learnt that from you, Kay.
732
00:39:01,528 --> 00:39:03,928
I don't get angry,
I just get frustrated.
733
00:39:05,609 --> 00:39:07,049
Second Sight are going
to have to come up
734
00:39:07,169 --> 00:39:08,289
with something better than this.
735
00:39:08,409 --> 00:39:11,329
(INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC)
736
00:39:13,849 --> 00:39:15,169
(PHONE RINGS)
737
00:39:23,050 --> 00:39:24,770
Bob, how's it going?
738
00:39:24,890 --> 00:39:27,250
Michael, good. Um, any luck?
739
00:39:27,370 --> 00:39:28,931
It's been a long time.
740
00:39:29,051 --> 00:39:30,251
A lot of water under the bridge.
741
00:39:32,051 --> 00:39:34,051
Yeah, OK. I understand.
742
00:39:34,171 --> 00:39:36,691
But, er, see attached.
743
00:39:51,533 --> 00:39:53,733
Oh, my fucking good god!
744
00:39:57,013 --> 00:39:58,173
Michael, thank you!
745
00:39:59,453 --> 00:40:00,533
Thank you so much!
746
00:40:03,974 --> 00:40:05,614
(PHONE RINGS)
747
00:40:05,734 --> 00:40:09,774
So, Bob, I can confirm
that in August 2008
748
00:40:09,894 --> 00:40:12,214
the basement of Fujitsu's building
in Bracknell
749
00:40:12,334 --> 00:40:15,055
did contain
a Horizon test environment.
750
00:40:15,175 --> 00:40:18,175
Note, a test environment.
751
00:40:19,415 --> 00:40:22,175
And that's what we believe
your subpostmaster Mr Rudkin saw.
752
00:40:22,295 --> 00:40:24,175
He got the wrong end of the stick?
753
00:40:25,696 --> 00:40:27,776
The test environment
wasn't physically connected
754
00:40:27,896 --> 00:40:29,456
to the live Horizon system,
755
00:40:29,576 --> 00:40:32,336
so it wasn't possible
for the transactions
756
00:40:32,456 --> 00:40:33,896
he thought he saw to be real.
757
00:40:36,817 --> 00:40:38,617
Got it. Thank you.
758
00:40:40,417 --> 00:40:43,137
That's cleared that up.
Good.
759
00:40:45,857 --> 00:40:47,698
I'll see you out.
760
00:40:47,818 --> 00:40:50,738
Thank you for joining me
by conference call.
761
00:40:50,858 --> 00:40:54,858
I am sorry for the short notice
in keeping the Board updated.
762
00:40:54,978 --> 00:40:56,898
The Horizon review interim report
763
00:40:57,018 --> 00:41:00,419
will be presented to MPs
in one week's time.
764
00:41:00,539 --> 00:41:03,579
The report has found
no systemic issues
765
00:41:03,699 --> 00:41:06,139
with the Horizon computer system.
766
00:41:06,259 --> 00:41:08,739
But I am concerned that the report
767
00:41:08,859 --> 00:41:11,980
from the independent
forensic accountant
768
00:41:12,100 --> 00:41:14,180
is not as factual as expected...
769
00:41:15,900 --> 00:41:17,820
and could lead to loose language.
770
00:41:17,940 --> 00:41:20,860
(TENSE MUSIC)
771
00:41:28,737 --> 00:41:31,740
What are you?
Poacher turned gamekeeper?
772
00:41:31,860 --> 00:41:36,185
This report of yours turns out
to be not half bad, considering.
773
00:41:36,305 --> 00:41:37,306
(LAUGHS)
774
00:41:37,426 --> 00:41:39,629
Faint praise, I like it.
775
00:41:40,950 --> 00:41:42,712
Oh, I just hope
it makes a difference.
776
00:41:44,113 --> 00:41:46,436
What got Michael Rudkin
into the final version?
777
00:41:46,556 --> 00:41:47,477
Mm.
778
00:41:47,597 --> 00:41:49,679
An email inviting him to Bracknell,
779
00:41:49,799 --> 00:41:52,842
copied to seven named
Post Office executives.
780
00:41:52,963 --> 00:41:54,004
Hold on.
781
00:41:54,124 --> 00:41:57,127
So, first they say he wasn't there.
782
00:41:57,247 --> 00:41:58,769
Then they say
he was there, but what...
783
00:41:58,889 --> 00:42:01,652
his...his glasses were broken?
784
00:42:01,772 --> 00:42:04,054
I wonder if they even know
they're talking bollocks?
785
00:42:04,174 --> 00:42:06,257
Welcome aboard, Bob.
786
00:42:06,377 --> 00:42:08,019
Yeah, they still say
787
00:42:08,139 --> 00:42:11,582
that there's no remote access
into your accounts.
788
00:42:11,702 --> 00:42:12,904
I'm sorry, but I don't think
789
00:42:13,024 --> 00:42:15,026
I'm going to be able to prove
that they're wrong
790
00:42:15,146 --> 00:42:16,267
and that you're right on this one.
791
00:42:16,387 --> 00:42:17,469
Ah.
792
00:42:17,589 --> 00:42:19,871
But, Alan, there are things...
793
00:42:19,991 --> 00:42:22,274
documents that I've found
in the Post Office files,
794
00:42:22,394 --> 00:42:24,276
they're beyond belief.
795
00:42:24,396 --> 00:42:25,717
Are you going to tell me more?
796
00:42:26,878 --> 00:42:28,360
There's someone else
I need to tell first.
797
00:42:31,523 --> 00:42:36,088
Good morning, Mr Frog!
There he is!
798
00:42:36,208 --> 00:42:37,209
Let's say good morning.
799
00:42:37,329 --> 00:42:38,971
Hello, all.
Bob!
800
00:42:39,091 --> 00:42:41,654
We're babysitting in the sunshine.
Isn't he gorgeous?
801
00:42:41,774 --> 00:42:42,775
(LAUGHS)
802
00:42:42,895 --> 00:42:44,697
I was hoping
you'd be sitting somewhere quiet.
803
00:42:46,299 --> 00:42:48,501
Yeah, I can do that!
Or I can put the kettle on?
804
00:42:48,621 --> 00:42:51,024
Oh, me and Joshua
will put the kettle on.
805
00:42:55,429 --> 00:42:57,871
Your investigator, Ryan Fleming.
806
00:42:57,991 --> 00:42:59,072
The turd?
807
00:42:59,193 --> 00:43:01,315
Did you ever see
his report about you?
808
00:43:03,237 --> 00:43:04,238
No.
809
00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:08,963
17th of May 2006,
810
00:43:09,083 --> 00:43:12,807
he recorded that he had analysed
your Horizon accounts
811
00:43:12,927 --> 00:43:16,411
and was unable
to find any evidence of theft.
812
00:43:17,532 --> 00:43:19,975
I pleaded guilty
to false accounting instead.
813
00:43:20,095 --> 00:43:21,576
Hmm, yes.
814
00:43:21,696 --> 00:43:25,781
No evidence means they had no right
to charge you with theft,
815
00:43:25,901 --> 00:43:28,824
and therefore no right
to plea bargain you down
816
00:43:28,944 --> 00:43:29,985
to false accounting.
817
00:43:31,787 --> 00:43:32,948
Jo, no evidence means
818
00:43:33,068 --> 00:43:35,831
they had no right
to take you to court at all.
819
00:43:37,633 --> 00:43:40,556
(PENSIVE MUSIC)
820
00:43:49,326 --> 00:43:50,967
Everything I've gone through.
821
00:43:54,371 --> 00:43:55,852
Everything I've lost.
822
00:43:58,495 --> 00:44:02,139
Ten years of heartache...
823
00:44:03,501 --> 00:44:07,665
and sleepless nights
and always skint.
824
00:44:10,468 --> 00:44:14,672
And they destroyed
our whole life for a lie.
825
00:44:18,436 --> 00:44:20,158
What kind of people are they?
826
00:44:24,122 --> 00:44:25,484
The second sight report
827
00:44:25,604 --> 00:44:27,926
presented to MPs
in Westminster today
828
00:44:28,047 --> 00:44:31,570
was expected to include criticism
of the Horizon computer system
829
00:44:31,690 --> 00:44:34,013
and of the senior management
at the Post Office.
830
00:44:34,133 --> 00:44:36,095
But while the report
does raise concerns
831
00:44:36,215 --> 00:44:38,818
about unreliable hardware
and poor training
832
00:44:38,938 --> 00:44:42,021
a Post Office spokesperson
said the investigation clearly shows
833
00:44:42,141 --> 00:44:45,785
its Horizon system as a whole
is operating as it should.
834
00:44:45,905 --> 00:44:47,347
MPs praised the Post Office
835
00:44:47,467 --> 00:44:49,549
for the way they've dealt
with these difficult issues.
836
00:44:58,839 --> 00:45:00,040
(PHONE RINGS)
837
00:45:05,366 --> 00:45:06,327
Alan Bates.
838
00:45:07,728 --> 00:45:09,650
Alan, it's Paula Vennells.
839
00:45:13,414 --> 00:45:14,416
Paula.
840
00:45:17,218 --> 00:45:18,220
Joking.
841
00:45:18,340 --> 00:45:20,142
So, I was thinking...
842
00:45:23,545 --> 00:45:24,746
where do we go from here?
843
00:45:26,909 --> 00:45:27,910
Well...
844
00:45:29,712 --> 00:45:31,353
um I've been thinking
about that too.
845
00:45:32,595 --> 00:45:33,876
Well, great.
846
00:45:33,996 --> 00:45:36,279
Should the two of us
try and find a way forward?
847
00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:38,721
If you want something done properly,
848
00:45:38,841 --> 00:45:39,842
do it yourself?
849
00:45:41,604 --> 00:45:42,605
Exactly.
850
00:45:44,688 --> 00:45:45,689
Well...
851
00:45:47,050 --> 00:45:48,011
how can I help?
93611
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