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♪♪

I hope we didn't keep you
waiting very long.

Not at all. I would have
waited all day for this.

You and your buddies decided

y'all were gonna kill him
and take his dope.

You started
a fire with a blowtorch.

When did you start viewing
child pornography?

Do you actually
accept responsibility,

or is this something that
you're just coasting through?

It hurts me still.
I'm hurtin'.

I truly am sorry
for what I did.

I definitely wanna say

I'm sorry to the family
of the victim.

I decided I needed
to help myself,

fix myself
'cause I was broke.

No early release
in your sentence.

You will serve out
your sentence.

No early discharge.

commissioner:
Parole has been denied.
Good luck to you.

♪♪

newscaster:
The penologists say
let a criminal know

just how much time
he's going to do

for a certain kind of crime,
and no parole.

For four decades now
the parole board

has stockpiled human lives.

More than 50% of people

appearing before the board
are denied parole

and disproportionately
impact people of color

and more specifically
Black men.

Abolish parole
for violent felons.

-Violent felons belong in jail!
-(applause)

newscaster:
There is outrage over
a parole board's decision

to free
convicted cop killer...

This parole board
needs to be fired.

speaker:
We cannot continue
to have a system

in which the worst thing
that you've ever done

is the only thing
that you are judged for.

Judge Richard Healy:
Once you've served
the minimum sentence,

then you're eligible
for parole.

Rochelle Swartz:
In the 20, maybe 45 minutes

the parole board gives you,

can you showcase
you are remorseful,

that you are deserving
of a second chance?

speaker:
That parole board interview
is about freedom.

Is there any hope
for your future?

Whether you're gonna
die in prison?

Everything is on that,
that one time, that one shot.

Carol Shapiro:
The severity of the offense

is the cornerstone

of most parole commissioners'
decision-making.

Sabrina Scott:
The commissioners
always say parole denied

due to the nature
of the crime,

but the nature of the crime
is never gonna change.

And you're supposed
to look at the person

for who they are today.

♪♪

Todd Scott:
I've been in prison
over 30 years.

I am a lifer, you know,
until they let me go.

And it's-- Until then,
that's what the, um--

I'm designated to be.

I've been in prison
since I was 19.

Every day I pray
and ask for forgiveness.

How can you be
more remorseful?

How do you show
that you changed?

During the parole interview

your anxiety's building.

The commissioners
come on the screen

and they'll say,
"This is your parole interview,

"we're gonna talk
about the crimes

you're convicted for."

So you gotta prepare yourself
for that hard conversation.

Over the years
your conscience

opens up more and more
and it's like, you know,

now you realize the gravity
of what you participated in.

I just gotta get in there

and convince the commissioners

that I'm worth
taking a shot on.

I turned 54 last week.

I'm not the same 19-year-old.

(camera shutter clicks)

(siren wailing)

(camera shutters clicking)

(wailing continues)

(indistinct radio chatter)

newscaster:
Veteran police officers
are shedding tears tonight

for a rookie cop,
executed in cold blood.

Officer Edward Byrne
was just 22 years old,

the son of
a retired police lieutenant.

Pat Hendry:
That night Eddie Byrne
was assigned

to protect a witness
who was testifying

in a high-profile drug case.

He was parked outside
that location by himself.

reporter:
The parked car pulled up
with its lights off,

two men got out and one fired

into the patrol car
killing Byrne.

Hendry:
It was shocking,
they went there that night

to assassinate
a New York City police officer.

newscaster 1:
The fourth suspect
is behind bars.

newscaster 2:
Todd Scott, the man
who was distracting Eddie Byrne

at the time
of the shooting...

newscaster 3:
Edward Byrne was murdered

on the instructions
of a known drug lord.

newscaster 4:
Reputed crack kingpin
Howard "Pappy" Mason

has been indicted
for allegedly

ordering the Byrne hit
from behind bars.

Hendry:
This was a hit
from the jail cell

of Pappy Mason
to send a message

so that they can control
the streets of Jamaica, Queens.

judge:
The sentence of this court

shall be 25 years to life

on the murder
of second degree

with the recommendation
to the parole board

that you'll never be paroled.

(cheering)

Hendry:
All the murderers
who killed Eddie Byrnes

got the max, 25 to life.

Todd Scott never deserves
to step foot

on the streets ever again.

He was there that night to kill
a New York City police officer.

He might as well
pulled the trigger.

♪♪

Rhiya Trivedi:
My whole job is doing

pro bono
criminal defense work.

Almost all of my clients
have been incarcerated

for what we call
life on the back.

Twenty-five to life,
fifteen to life.

And Todd is serving
25 to life

and 15 to life
for another murder

and they ran concurrently.

Todd's last parole interview
decision reads,

"You caused the death of
a female victim by shooting her

"because she stole money

"from your
drug distribution organization,

"and in February of 1988

"you and your co-defendants
planned and executed the murder

"of a New York City
police officer.

"While the record appears clear
that you were not the one

"who fired the shots
at Officer Byrne,

"you admitted that you were
the one that distracted him

so that the other
could kill him."

Todd struggles to discuss

the nature and circumstances
of his crime

and so that
becomes my focus.

The work is
to demonstrate insight,

rehabilitation,
and remorse.

That's the stated logic
of parole.

(distant chatter, doors locking)

The parole commissioners
are always looking

for some acknowledgment that,

that what we're talking about
is irreversible.

And you're in the,
the most extreme situation

of having to communicate
that to them.

Like, remorse,
like remorse, like, I, I...

I walk with
my remorse every day.

-I carry it, I sleep with it,
I wake up with it.
-Mm-hmm.

And every hearing
you get new information

about how to approach
the next one.

-Mm-hmm.
-Trivedi: And we can look
at the transcript

and think about
how they recognize remorse.

Mm-hmm. Redemption is
an everyday growing thing,

it's an everyday process
of bettering yourself.

You always, you always can work
on bettering yourself.

Trivedi: Mm-hmm.

But how,
but how do they measure it?

There was a question
asked by a commissioner,

"Are the scales balanced?"

What did you say?

-And I said, "Only God knows."
-Hmm.

You know,
God knows best. I don't--

Some things that
I don't know what's happening

and I had to figure it out
on the fly.

It's a question that's asking
an unknowable thing.

-Right.
-Right? And I hear
you saying that.

-Mm-hmm.
-Like, only God knows
in the sense

-that I sure as hell
don't know, right?
-Right, right.

Trivedi:
I hear you talkin'
about all the ways

you try to help people

and the hope you have
that that's true

and, and who doesn't have
that hope for themselves

that the good they've done
outweighs the bad they've done?

Do you know what I hear
when I hear that question?

Todd:
What?

Trivedi:
I hear them wanting
to hear from you

that there's nothing
that you could ever do

that would repair
the damage you've done.

Yeah, I-I never
looked at it that way

but I understand
what you're saying.

Because somewhere right now

somebody is grieving a person
who is not with them

because of
a decision you made.

I understand exactly
what you're saying, you know?

I own it.
I can own my part of it.

Trivedi:
Mm-hmm.

And that's it.

(solemn music playing)

-(birds chirping)
-(water trickling)

Patrick Gallivan:
Sometimes when somebody does

something so egregious,

they forfeited their right
to be amongst all of us.

No matter what good
they might do in prison.

So, the parole board's job
is to decide

whether or not an individual

who's serving
an indeterminate sentence

should be released
on parole.

So, all the individuals
that serve

indeterminate sentences,

where the judge sets a minimum
amount of years to serve,

and a maximum time,
three to nine,

twenty-five to life,
five to fifteen,

those are indeterminate.

Um, all those individuals
ultimately go

before two or three
commissioners

up to 24 months,
every two years.

And if they're denied,
another two years after that,
and so on.

I, I think the best intended
commissioners

that are trying to do
their job properly

really try to get inside,
um, the inmate

and see what insight
they've had into their conduct,

what insight they've had
into their life.

And that could include remorse

or it, it could include
an understanding of why they,

why they committed a crime.

(leaves rustling)

Chad Campbell:
I've been in prison
for 31 years.

Do I forgive
my 14-year-old self?

Um...

No.

It's, it's not
that I don't want to...

but in doing so, in my mind,

and I still have
this problem today,

I don't forgive myself
today at 46.

If I forgive him
it makes it alright.

And what I did
is not alright.

(siren wailing)

newscaster 1:
In the summer of 1990,

the lives of
two Palmyra families

were forever changed.

newscaster 2:
Chad Campbell was 14

when he was convicted
of killing a classmate

and the toddler
she was babysitting.

newscaster 3:
A New York State parole board

has denied parole
to Chad Campbell.

It will be two more years
before Campbell

will have a chance
to be released from prison.

Judge Healy:
Palmyra is a small
rural community

outside of Rochester.

There's hardly any
violent crime in Palmyra.

I was an assistant DA
in Wayne County in 1990.

Cindy Lewis was babysitting
for Curtis Rizzo.

And they had walked
behind the school

and that's the last time
they were seen.

They just sort of disappeared,

the police were searching,

the entire community
was searching.

Two days later,
their bodies were found.

The victims were
stabbed multiple times.

The child was, uh,
17 months old at the time,

Cindy Lewis was 15.

It was just a, a, a, just
a horrible crime, uh, brutal.

I was close
to the victims' families.

They were totally devastated.

They wanted to see
justice done.

Because Chad Campbell
was only 14

at the time of the crime,

he was considered
a juvenile offender.

The judge gave him
18 years to life.

That was the maximum sentence
he could have received.

newscaster:
Since then, Rizzo's family

has fought to keep him
behind bars.

He's been up for parole
every two years since 2008

and has been denied.

♪♪

voice navigation:
Take the ramp
to New York 495 West.

Swartz:
Chad is due for
his ninth parole interview

in just a couple of weeks.

He's been in prison
30 years now

and he's been denied parole
eight times.

I always make a point
of trying to visit Chad

in advance
of the parole interviews

because I know that they
can be quite stressful.

I'm going up there to have
a full and complete conversation

about not just what happened,
but what we're gonna do next.

I do several practice runs
with Chad to encourage him

to not just say,
"Yes, sir, no, sir,"

but really to speak his truth.

(birds chirping)

-Hey. (chuckles)
-Chad: How are you?

Swartz:
How's it going?

-Chad: Good,
how about yourself?
-Swartz: Good.

-Okay, so come sit down.
-Chad: Okay.

-So, it's the ninth hearing.
-Chad: Yeah.

I think I'm ready. I really do.

I mean, they're gonna ask me
the exact same questions,
you know?

And I, and I tell them,
it's, it's hard for me to s--

you know, explain what happened.

I think probably
you're gonna deal

with the typical questions
that you always get about,

you know,
"Tell me about this crime."

"Why did you do it?
Why did you take Curtis' life?"

Right? Like, he wasn't
a danger to you.

The commissioners
are asking me

to explain the thought process

and the actions
of a 14-year-old, at the time.

Um, as I'll be 46 in September,

so, right now, a 45-year-old man
who is now educated,

you know, compared to
when I came to prison...

this is not how I feel now.

But this is what I felt
at the time.

It was rage.

It was rage, um...

I don't know if anyone's
ever experienced it

and I hope people don't,
you don't stop.

It was, it was definitely
like a break

but it didn't start
with Cynthia or Curtis.

My anger started
when I was younger,

my anger was
starting from not...

being able to identify
my emotions,

for always thinking
that you were stupid, broken,

something was wrong with you,

that being reinforced
by your mother calling you

a stupid son of a bitch
all the time.

We knew who my mother
was talking to

by what curses she used.

I was "stupid son of a bitch,"
my sister was "goddamn asshole."

So my feelings of anger,

it was coming from
an abusive household,

a neglectful household.

My father's only interaction
with his children

was when it was time
to discipline them

and that usually came
in the form of a fist.

The amount of abuse
that occurred in my household

growing up was overwhelming.

My coping mechanisms,
sports, physical sports,

I didn't wanna,
you know, play tennis.

I wanted to play football
and, you know,

try and rip your head off.

I don't wanna
blame any of that

but I'm able
to track my anger,

I'm able to track why...

I was violent.

My first parole board
was May 2008.

You know, you're about
to go and answer

for the worst mistake

you've ever made
in your entire life.

commissioner 1:
What happened
to that 14-year-old

that caused you to commit
such a horrendous crime?

Chad:
For 30 years I thought
about that extensively.

It's like I couldn't
control myself,

and I think it's horrible.

I can't begin to say how
sorry I am for what I've done.

commissioner 2:
To commit such a vicious act

with such rage and violence,

it's incomprehensible,

what you did was
just really atrocious.

Chad:
I agree.

commissioner 1:
Do you think
that after serving 30 years

you're entitled to be
released at this time?

You're asking for parole.

You understand what you did
was beyond the pale, right?

Chad:
Yes, ma'am.

The commissioners,
they ask me

was justice served
in this case?

And, um, my answer
is always no.

I'm alive,
Cynthia and Curtis are not.

You know?

So, you know, there--

there can never be justice.

But, uh, I also say
that there's a, um,

there's a, there's
a flip side to that coin,

and it's redemption.

Um, I know I can never
redeem myself

for what I've done.

Never.

Not in my eyes, I can't.

But it doesn't stop me
from chasing it.

And I've chased it for 31 years.

I'ma keep doing it.

♪♪

(wind blowing)

Gallivan:
The parole commissioner's job

is to make that admittedly
subjective decision

whether or not
to release the individual.

To become a commissioner,

the governor nominates
an individual,

those nominees
come before the Senate.

Good afternoon, everybody.

I'm Senator Patrick Gallivan.

Uh, Mr. James Ferguson,

who was a former member
of the board of parole.

Uh, my name
is James Ferguson.

I was appointed
by Governor Pataki.

Violent felons belong in jail

and with your support that is
where they are going to be.

(applause)

James Ferguson:
Obviously, whatever governor
is in charge

is going to try to appoint
people consistent

with their philosophy,

and commissioners
are generally appointed

for six-year terms.

And you see the polar opposites
in the parole system.

You have one side
that wants everybody

to stay in prison forever.

You have the other side
who wants to let everybody out.

My own understanding of
rehabilitation and redemption

starts with Catholic school,

where you grow up
with a very strong sense

of what is right
and what is wrong.

In my personal opinion,
as commissioners,

we don't just have a person

who wants their freedom
that we're answerable to.

We have society
not only to protect,

but we have society
who's confidence

in the criminal justice system
is essential to make it work.

Gallivan:
The final nominee before us,

that came from the governor...

Shapiro:
I served on the parole board

for just two years.

I know victimization firsthand.

My mother was crushed
by a drunk driver

when I was a child.

But I was lucky enough
to grow up with,

um, feelings of redemption
and forgiveness,

something that we don't
really talk about here.

Part of what
the parole process is,

is determining if somebody's
ready to go home.

Now, for each of us
on the board,

that meant something different.

Um, I look at what have you done
within your time

and have you been transformed,

and you're no longer, you know,

a threat to anybody,
yourself, or your family.

On a 25 to life sentence,

does that mean they should
get out at that point

just because they're "ready"?

You're not just there
to become a better person.

You're there to pay a debt.

♪♪

Sabrina:
I hate writing this number.

(cookie bags crinkling)

So, I usually send him
like 30 packs of tuna.

He's on the honor block,
so, he's able to cook.

I guess that's,
that's the privilege

of being in the honor block.

I'm sending him some meat
so it's gonna be a little wet.

-(siren wailing)
-(indistinct radio chatter)

Todd and I grew up
in South Jamaica, Queens.

It was a dangerous world.

Drug dealers, dirty cops.

Oh, my goodness, this place.

I remember when Todd
used to come to my house

to get my brother
to go play basketball.

Nobody really
looked deep into Todd's life

because he always was
a smiling kid, funny,

but it was a lot of trauma

and he got mixed up

with the worst people ever,
drug dealers.

We were just shocked
like, "Why? Why?"

And bottom line, it was money.

When Todd went to prison,
my heart was broken.

We wrote for about
a year and a half

and then I went to see him.

That was it. I told him
we were gonna get married.

I felt like I can
help him get home.

I have created petitions
in South Jamaica

and we had over 200 people
come and sign the petitions.

People in our community

said it was time
for Todd to come home.

-(siren wailing)
-(indistinct radio chatter)

The truth is
an officer lost his life

and it shouldn't
have happened.

They know Todd
was not the trigger man

but because he was there,
they felt like,

"You could have called the cops,
you could have did something."

But when you're
in that life, in the streets,

there's other rules.

"If you don't do
what I tell you to do."

Like, "This is a order."

"We know where you live."

♪♪

Trivedi:
Okay, you want the transcript?

Ron Kuby:
I want the transcript.

Oh, here we go. You ready?

-Yeah. Yeah.
-Trivedi: Hoo.

I discuss everything with Kuby
in terms of my approach.

We process
these things together

because it's emotional for us.

From the board's perspective,

they see someone who was
willing to participate

in the taking of a life...

on orders from a person

who was not
Todd's biological family

nor who had
the kind of power over Todd

that they recognize
as duress or coercion.

But I think it has to do
with the extent

to which he was
abandoned, abused,

neglected from
a profoundly early age

and how he found family
in this organization.

And so when he received orders
to do a thing,

it was as though he was being
told to do them by a parent

in a context
where it made sense.

Right. They adopted him,
they took care of him,

they gave him a security,
both financial and physical,

that he didn't have at home and,

you know, that's gotta be
extraordinarily attractive

to a 15-year-old
who basically is on his own.

Trivedi:
I don't know that there was
any instance

where the parole commissioners
acknowledged

that the story
of his family

and his abandonment
and his homelessness

is the story of how he came
to take orders from

these older,
more established street leaders.

I need to talk to him about it

because he refuses
to see himself as a victim.

There's a way for somebody
to sort of tell that story

about how this happens.

-(tense music playing)
-(subway tracks screeching)

And to understand
the significance of Todd's case

we need to go back
a little bit

and get a sense of
what New York was like

-in the '70s and '80s.
-(sirens wailing)

New York City was bankrupt.

And with it comes
the crack epidemic.

newscaster:
Manhattan narcotic cops

arrested more than 30 people
in one building

for allegedly dealing a new form
of cocaine known as crack.

Kuby:
The police were unleashed.

So there was
this huge mistrust

in communities
of color of the police.

And then the entire
narrative changed.

newscaster 1:
Rookie officer Eddie Byrne

was murdered
by a drug dealer.

newscaster 2:
Howard "Pappy" Mason
has denied any involvement

with drugs
and Byrne's murder.

The four men convicted
are allegedly in the Bebo gang.

Their cult-like reverence
for their leader

said to be so strong,

they carried out
Mason's contract one day

after he was jailed
on a weapons charge.

Kuby:
Eddie Byrne was a kid,
I mean, he was 21 years old.

And when he was murdered

there was a lot of
community outrage.

This was horrific.

reporter:
The shooting of
Officer Edward Byrne

is the case of good guy
versus bad guy.

Kuby:
This was a hero cop

and he died in service
of the community.

And now the police finally,

instead of being called
pigs and murderers,
were embraced

and so the police
and the community
are now united.

officer:
...police! Search warrant!

Rudy Giuliani:
We need a death penalty

for people who murder
police officers.

We need life imprisonment
for major drug dealers.

Kuby:
Eddie Byrne became
a rallying cry against crime

and for mass arrests
and mass incarceration.

This is the badge
of a fallen police officer,

New York cop that
many of y'all knew, Eddie Byrne.

Kuby:
George Herbert Walker Bush,

when he was running
for president

he carried
Eddie Byrne's badge with him.

Politicians all
over the country use this

and it paved the way
for judges to hand out

every maximum sentence
available.

The sentence of the court is

twenty-five years to life
with the recommendation

that you'll never be paroled.

(cheering)

The most depressing thing
for me personally

is that he's done 33 years,

and, I mean, you actually
become eligible for parole

for a cop killing
in the real world after 45.

-Who has gotten out before 45?
-Trivedi: No, that's, that's it.

I don't seriously consider him
to be parole eligible

for at least another
seven years,

and that might be, um,

wishful thinking
in and of itself

which disturbs me, honestly.

Like, is bursting
that bubble my job?

Nope.

Nope! That's not our job.

(ambient city street noise)

(office phones ringing)

Swartz:
Chad Campbell has been
in prison for 32 years.

I originally got involved
in his case

after he was denied parole
for the fifth time,

which was about
two years ago.

I had no exposure to parole,
to incarceration issues,

to really any of that.

I'm a commercial litigator,

but the pro bono partner
here at Orrick said to me,

"Hey, we have
an oral argument in seven days

"and nobody can handle it

and it would be
a great experience."

And I said, "Okay, sure.
I guess I'll try that."

If you're denied parole
you can file an appeal

where you go to court

and you argue that the board
did something wrong.

Even if you convince the court

that the parole board
did something wrong,

New York courts are not willing
to release a parole applicant.

They'll say, "Okay, you can
have a new parole interview."

Your Honors, my client would be
the first to tell you

that the crime he committed
was truly horrible.

However, he committed that crime
when he was 14 years old.

To what extent are these crimes

that these
child offenders commit

part of transient immaturity?

This is now the fifth time
that he's been denied parole.

All you're really
left with is saying,

"Basically, this crime
was so serious

that no remorse
could ever be enough."

Frankly, I believe
that the parole board

is being allowed
to sentence Mr. Campbell,

who was a child offender,
to life in prison

in two-year intervals.

Thank you.

Swartz:
Thank you, Your Honors.

Respondent, please.

You have these
very troubling facts

of the underlying crime
and the board wants to ensure,

having the responsibility
for discretionary release,

that Mr. Campbell
truly understands

what happened that day.

The board is asking
open-ended questions,

"Why did you do
something like this?

"How did Cynthia Lewis
end up dead?

What were you thinking
at the time that you--"

How is that ever gonna
change by the way?

Does that mean
he's gonna stay in jail

as a 14-year-old offender
until he's 80?

Till he's 90? Till a thousand?

When does that ever change
if that's a factor?

Swartz:
Appeals are really hard to win,

and not surprisingly
we lost that one,

which for me highlights

this retributivist idea
of justice that we have,

that the only correct outcome
for a violent crime

is to put someone away
for life.

Before I met Chad
I wouldn't necessarily

have disagreed
with that approach.

If someone commits
a violent crime,

they should just spend
the rest of their life
in prison.

But once I got to know Chad,

got to know
the facts of the case,

he's never committed another
act of violence in 30 years.

He's grown and changed
in an environment

that does not foster
growth and change.

Chad:
When I came in at 14,
I pushed everything aside.

I compartmentalized it
and locked it away.

Then, over the years,
through some of the programs,

I was able to deal
with things gradually.

♪♪

The things I'm involved in
in here,

you know, grievance, Bard,
all the things I do.

It's my way of trying,
and that's all I can do,

and I'm not gonna stop
doing that.

But I took
two innocent people's lives,

so for me to say,
you know, "Look at me,

I'm doing great things now,"

um, I think that dishonors,
um, the m--

you know,
their memory basically,

and I have a hard time
doing that.

It really comes down
to the commissioners

and how they, you know,
ask the questions.

In my last hearing
I was asked a simple question.

"Do you think you deserve
to go home?"

And my initial response was,
"Do I deserve it?"

When you start
weighing everything

there's times I'm like,
"No, I don't."

Why should I--

If I forgive myself,

it's almost like
I'm at peace with it.

I don't wanna be
at peace with it.

You've had 30 years
in order to think

about what you've done.

So I know my answers,
but it doesn't help

when you get in front of them.

You're nervous.
You're scared.

And you know every word
that comes out of your mouth

could determine
whether or not you're released.

Whether or not you gain
your freedom back again.

(tense music playing)

commissioner:
Why did you call Cindy?

Chad:
She lived right down the street

and I suspected
she liked me.

commissioner:
I know there was a stabbing,

which I believe I read
was 40-plus stab wounds.

Chad:
I just wanted to hurt somebody.

It was an impulsive decision

that I knew would be hurtful,

and I know it's wrong,

and I can't say how sorry
I am for everything.

commissioner:
And when did you stab Curtis?

Chad:
After I stabbed Cindy,

he was crying,
and I was still angry.

I was scared.

The best I could explain it,

there was so much noise,

I didn't want any noise
in my head,

and I reached over
and I stabbed him.

I couldn't process fear
like normal people could.

Frustration or guilt
or remorse.

Everything came across
as anger.

commissioner:
Mr. Campbell, you've given us
a lot to think about,

a lot to deliberate about.

♪♪

(music fades out)

Gallivan:
Who makes sure
that as a commissioner,

that you are doing
your job properly

and complying with the law?

No one.

Fred Akshar:
Would you say that

members of the board
are overworked?

Ferguson:
Without question.

So a typical day
on the parole board is,

the commissioners will be
given 10, 20, 30 cases each

to immediately start reviewing.

These files are
eight inches thick.

You are supposed to be
reviewing a folder

while you are
simultaneously listening

to an inmate's application
for release.

Shapiro:
You're really not trained
for this job.

I knew very little going in.

And oftentimes
we're seeing the case

for the first time
that morning,

and you may have 15, 20 minutes
to review the file.

We are told to follow
the statutes,

and make our decisions

based on a certain
set of criteria.

There's risk instruments,

there's institutional
accomplishments,

the severity of the offense

tends to be the cornerstone

of most parole commissioners'
decision-making.

If you look
at the majority of the people

who committed heinous crimes,
the reason they're denied parole

is because of
the severity of the crime.

Todd:
What I did, it still hangs
heavy over me.

So when I go in front
of the parole board,

it's just hard to explain.

It's hard, you know, um,
I got to prepare myself

every two years
to explain it to strangers.

You're dredging up stuff that,
it's not easy reliving it.

It's not easy talking about it.

(solemn music playing)

My mother had me
when she was 16.

So my mother
was in the streets.

I took this picture
of my mother.

This is one of the times
when she was real sober,

um, you know, when my sister,
little sister was born.

She was, she was carrying me
in this picture, so...

When I was born,
I was born addicted to heroin.

So my grandmother raised me.

My grandmother was struggling,
living in the projects.

My mother had
two more children,

I had to really care
for my siblings

'cause both of my parents
was drugs addicts.

(children chattering)

I had an uncle and he really
made life hard at home.

The physical abuse,
and verbal.

I could have left,
I could have ran away

but I had to stay and protect
my siblings from my uncle,

face the abuse so they wouldn't
have to go through nothing.

The guys you hang with,
they become your family.

I got hand-me-downs
from hustlers

and that's what draws you in.

But that's the thing
with gangs.

These are the people that
making sure you eat.

Money in your pocket.
A place to live.

I never had a birthday party

until I started hanging out
with these guys.

They take care of you.
You become a band of brothers.

My first appearance
before the parole board,

I was not prepared at all.

When I went in,
they tore me up.

commissioner:
You were influenced
by these guys.

You were influenced
by the money, the prestige.

Am I correct?

Todd:
You are correct.

commissioner:
You were an enforcer,

with the potential
to put lead into somebody.

That is a job you took.

You were cold and callous.

You had the opportunity
to apologize and you didn't.

You were very evasive.

Todd:
My actions
led to a lot of hurt.

my impulsiveness
and my recklessness.

I wasn't raised that way,
you know?

No matter what we went through,
we wasn't raised to harm people.

Let alone, you know,
take lives, you know?

I acknowledged
the crime long ago

but facing it
is a different thing.

It's, it's a,
it's a shamefulness.

It's, it's for real,
it's, it's like...

you know, it's hard
to, to talk about it.

I can say, like, "I didn't,
I didn't pull the trigger."

It's easy to say that, but I...

you...

I played a role in it.

So you're just as guilty,
you know?

I own it
and I'm responsible for it.

That's what it is.

♪♪

(line ringing)

automated response:
An inmate at New York
State Department of Corrections

and Community Supervision.

You may start
the conversation now.

Sabrina:
Hey, babe.

Todd (on phone):
What's up, mama?

I'm, I'm happy
to hear your voice.

(Todd speaking)

Sabrina:
The parole hearing,
it's like waiting to see

if your life is gonna end
or if it's gonna begin.

We have literally days
before Todd

goes to his
fifth parole hearing.

And we out here,
believe that.

(Todd speaking)

Absolutely.

Just another thing
we just have to jump over.

I'm just full.

It's... been a long time.

It's time for him to come home.

(exhales, sniffles)

(tense music playing)

commissioner:
Now, sir, the details here
are as follows,

late February 1988,
you, in concert,

shot and killed
a New York City police officer

who was sitting
in his patrol car.

The shooting was a hit ordered
by incarcerated drug lords

who were angry
at the police's assault
on their empire.

Todd:
Okay.

commissioner:
You were how old?

Todd:
I just turned 19 in November.

Honestly, in my mind,

I honestly felt like
I didn't shoot him,

but I'm just as culpable,
you know?

I know that now but back then
my cognizance wasn't correct.

I don't mean
to minimize things.

Sometimes it is
really emotional for me,

how everything percolates
in your mind.

commissioner:
But I need you to tell me
what it is.

It started out as errands,

but came to
full-blown drug deals.

You were an enforcer,
that's what it is.

Todd:
I'm nervous, I'm usually
a better speaker than this.

This is not easy
to speak about.

But I am not
that same individual,

that 19-year-old.

I'm far from that now.

(music fades out)

(traffic noise, cars honking)

Swartz:
Chad went to
his ninth parole hearing.

He emailed me yesterday
to let me know

that he received the decision.

automated response:
You may start
the conversation now.

-Swartz: Chad?
-Chad (on phone):
Hey, how you doin'?

-Hey.
-Chad: Alright.

-Swartz: Okay.
-Chad: You ready?

Swartz:
I'm ready.

Chad:
Alright, denied.

Hold for 15 months.

"The panel finds
that you failed to express
genuine remorse

"or meaningful empathy for
your victims and their families

"who will forever be impacted
by your actions.

"As such, this panel
is not convinced

"your rehabilitation
is complete.

Your release at this time
would so depreciate..."

-Swartz: "Deprecate."
-Chad: Yeah.

"...the serious nature
of your crime

as to undermine respect
for the law."

Swartz:
Are you okay?

Chad:
(sighs) Um...

Yeah.

-Chad: Um...
-Me too.

It's really, really frustrating.

(Chad speaking)

Nah.

Mm-mm. No.

Swartz: Okay.
Whatever you need to do

and if you, like, want me
to come up, I'll come up.

You know I will.

We're gonna give 'em hell.

We're gonna keep
giving 'em hell.

Hang in.

Okay.

Alright. Bye.

The statute says, "If release
would so deprecate

"the seriousness
of the offense

as to undermine respect
for the law."

That is a fallback, catch-all

to justify
denying him release.

A lot of my colleagues
really focus on the index crime,

the crime that got them
behind bars.

The deprecation clause
is the ticket out

for any commissioner who
doesn't wanna release somebody

and it's basically
saying a static event

is the reason you're never
gonna get out of prison.

Senator Tom O'Mara:
What type of training, if any,

are the commissioners given
in whether or not

"The release would so deprecate
the seriousness of the crime

as to undermine respect
for the law"?

None, to my knowledge.

How often does
that factor come into play?

There's a fair number of cases
that come in

where the inmate
can be the perfect inmate.

Um, they've done everything
they possibly can.

They, they perhaps
even demonstrate

a genuinely changed person.

But sometimes there's just
enough time has not been done,

because of this component
of the serious nature
of the offense

and undermining respect
from the law.

(solemn music playing)

When you take somebody's life,

you can serve time as a form
of punishment for what you did.

But you can never
reconstruct that family.

You can never take away
the sleepless nights.

And you will have some people,
say on the victim's side,

that no matter
what price is paid,

it will never be enough.

Shapiro:
If it's a heinous offense,

there's an opportunity
for victims of those offenses

to come before
a parole board commissioner.

It's called
a victim impact statement.

And so, the parole board
is sandwiched

in between really trying
to pay attention

to, "Has this person
transformed?

Can they go back home?"

There's this little voice
of the mother crying,

the father crying.

newscaster:
The families
fear for their safety

if Campbell
was ever released.

I did go talk
to the psychiatrist

that did all the interviews
with Chad during the trial

and he said,
"I can guarantee you
he will do it again."

newscaster:
New York State Senator
Pamela Helming

has joined in
the families' efforts,

creating a petition,

making sure Campbell
never sees the light of day.

Senator Pamela Helming:
Trying to get
as many signatures

as we can on the petition

to send a strong, strong message
to the parole board,

keep Chad Campbell behind bars
where he belongs.

Swartz:
In various denials
that we have,

the parole board
has said things like,

"Well, there's significant
community opposition

that people don't want
Chad to get out."

And Senator Helming submitted
a letter to the board,

which was on her website.

Our position was
that it contained
factual inaccuracies,

many things that she couldn't
possibly opine on,

like whether or not
Chad has ever shown remorse.

We decided to send
a cease and desist letter
to her office...

because her letter would only
increase the political pressure

on the commissioners
not to release Chad.

Kim Rogers:
So, this is the middle school.

It was along this
tree line right here

where they found
the victims...

Cindy and Curtis.

We were at
cheerleading practice.

I was 10.

At the time,
all you heard was

what the police
were telling you.

What they put in the paper.

I was raised to believe
it's an eye for an eye.

That's how I was raised.

And I, I don't agree with it.

Society just doesn't accept
that people change.

And my stepdad separated
himself kinda completely.

He didn't really go see him.
They didn't really talk.

So, society
accepted him more

because he's put it off
to the side

as if Chad wasn't
his son anymore.

But I think a lot of that
comes from

because I know
Chad was abused.

Mentally, physically, all of
those things, from my stepdad.

I've seen that side of him.

It was an abuse
where you cycle around of

"I'm just gonna give you
a little bit

"of what it should look like

"and then I'm gonna go back
to abusing you

so then you keep
coming back for more."

Chad was sentenced
to two counts of nine to life

and he's done 31 years now.

If the parole board
doesn't think

that the victim's statements

haven't already
played into that,

I would say that
they're dead wrong.

Because I think that
they've listened to one side

for a long time,

and I think it's time to start
listening to Chad's side.

♪♪

(rainfall pattering)

Sabrina:
Kira, can you hear me?

Kira (on computer):
Sabrina?

Sabrina:
He can hear you.

(Todd speaking on phone)

Wait, hold on. Todd is about
to open up his results.

He got his results back today.

(Todd speaking)

Todd:
Uh...

We know that.

(Todd speaking)

Alright, baby. I love you.

automated response:
The caller has hung up.

(phone beeps)

♪♪

Sabrina:
They always say,
"The nature of the crime."

The nature of the crime
is never gonna change.

newscaster:
They came from towns and cities

across the country
for Eddie Byrne's funeral.

An estimated
10,000 police officers

stretching for
more than eight blocks.

("Taps" playing at funeral)

Ferguson:
I come from
a public service family.

My father was
a NYPD homicide detective.

In my personal opinion,
the reason why cop cases

are decided differently
and have different
release rates

is that that person is not
just committing an offense

against the body
of that individual,

a police officer's life
is valued more,

because of who
and what they represent.

So we ask
this parole board,

when these mutts
come before them

and act like they're remorseful
and they're not,

to just say no.

Shapiro:
PBA is the
Police Benevolent Association.

Historically, they had
generated boxes of affidavits

from other police departments
around the country

saying why this person shouldn't
be released from prison.

So, they're
a political force.

I think high-profile cases,
in particular,

are a landmine
for some of the commissioners.

You are likely not to release
somebody who has a high-profile

that will make the
"New York Times" or the "Post."

For a lot of commissioners,
this is a job

and if you're worried
about keeping your paycheck,

you're-- you probably won't
let that person out.

(dramatic music playing)

(music fades out)

Todd:
How can you convince
somebody that you're...

um...

I don't wanna say deserving,

that's like
a selfish word to say,

but I believe that, um,

I'm credible for a chance
of being released into society.

And what really saved me
and brought me to,

like, a, a,
another level of maturity

was when I, you know,

proclaimed Mashallah
and became Muslim.

It's about respecting,
peacefulness,

and, and being charitable.

I see a lot
of youngsters in here

that came in
the same path as me.

You gotta speak to these kids
in their language.

The number one thing
is that you gotta

want to do better and be better.

I had to come to jail to,
to learn them tools.

My exit plans is really
just not about me.

There's already a job set up

with Teens Against Crime,
the nonprofit.

We have a letter from the CEO
of Teens Against Crime,

and, you know,
they just waiting for me

to get there
just to hit the ground running.

And try to help the community,
try to help these kids.

Trivedi:
They hit him
with a 19-month hit.

So there's a long time
before his next hearing.

There's a long time
to prepare for

how to send him
into the board again.

We have to keep going
but it's very hard

to come back from actually,

um, emotionally.

(electric gate whirring)

Let me at him.

Hi, hi.
I'm so happy to see you.

Todd:
Aah! I love you.

Listen, are you not sleeping?

Look at me.
Are you not sleeping?

You look so tired.

I never sleep.

I never slept
in 30-something years.

Hey, that's how it is.

I'll sleep when I get home,
I guess, right?

-Yeah.
-Trivedi: Um...

We, we got a lot-- we got a--
we do have some--

you and I have
some work to do.

-Trivedi: I know.
-Todd: We gotta get ready.

Trivedi:
Okay.

Todd, there are pieces of this

for which you are
more than prepared.

The packet,
the release plan.

Your disciplinary history
or lack thereof.

There is really
just one aspect of this

where you have room to grow.

These discussions
is hard discussions.

You know, it's a lot
that I've hidden away.

Blocked out.
Don't wanna revisit.

And... But I have to,
I'ma have to face it.

Being locked up at a young age,
it, you know...

it hinders your pattern
of thinking sometimes.

Trivedi:
The question is, for me,

how, how do you
take orders from people

and fulfill them, right?

When those people
are not themselves

holding a gun
to your head, right?

I think I know enough
about you to say

that the reason you fell in
with certain kinds of people

had everything to do
with that trauma,

that neglect,
that abuse, right?

That responsibility you had
as a very young person, right?

Yeah, of course, like, that,

that sense of loyalty,
like, like...

like, family, like... you know?

It's, it's, it's--
Sometimes it's a greater bond

-than you have
with your own family.
-Yeah.

The only way I can perceive
that we get you out

is by giving them

a full and honest
and vulnerable presentation

of who you are.

I'm asking you to believe
that what you say matters

because if you don't think
your words matter,

it means that you think they've
already made up their mind,

and you think-- if you think
they've already made up
their mind,

then you don't need to go.

You think they haven't
made their mind up?

Trivedi:
You wanna in absentia
this thing?

You, you think
they haven't made their mind up
for certain instances?

No, but Todd, listen.
I don't know,

and I will never know, right?

And I continue to fight.

We, we, we definitely gonna
work on that. I, I want to.

It's just, you know,
it's just these things

I got to just
block out my mind.

But my point is, I don't,

I don't actually want you
to block it out,

I want you to talk
to me about it,

-talk to Sabrina about it,
talk to an Imam about it.
-Right.

I'm just asking you
to sort of not, not look away.

Okay.

You, you got that.
You got it, you got it.

It's, it's not gonna be easy
but I'm, I'm gonna fight it.

-Alright.
-Um, call me Wednesday?

Wednesday, alright.

You might have to
set a legal one up.

Rhiya brings
a certain toughness.

She's gonna be relentless.

All this work we doing, I--
it's really me I gotta work on.

Trivedi:
Alright, Todd.

Todd:
Just telling my truth.

Telling the truth
of what happened

and letting them see who I am.

(tense music playing)

(music fades out)

(traffic noise, sirens blaring)

Swartz:
Chad's last denial
was several months ago

and we've started ramping up
for his next interview.

We've tried
different strategies

to prove that Chad is ready
to be released.

I've reached out to
a forensic child psychiatrist,

Dr. Patrick Wiita.

Thank you
for taking the time to meet.

I thought maybe we could
walk through

some of the, uh, findings.

This question,
"Are young people,
kids, teenagers,

(over video call)
"when they commit crimes,

is it different, inherently,
than when adults commit crimes?"

And every single time

it's gone to the Supreme Court,

uh, the answer's been
pretty emphatic,

"Yes, they are different."

Starting in 2005,

the science
behind brain development

has advanced to a point
where functional brain scans

can compare, you know,

an adolescent brain
to an adult brain.

Different parts of the brain
develop at different rates.

So their functional growth
in the parts of the brain

that are responsible
for emotions

is really, very active
in adolescence

and, and the part of the brain
that's responsible

for making decisions
is lagging behind.

The work I did here
was doing a kind of textbook

risk assessment
for Mr. Campbell

and my assessment
was really consistent

with the department
of corrections,

their own risk assessment,
they've all been low risk.

In the case of Mr. Campbell,

there's a question
that keeps coming up,

"Why did this happen?"

And, and, you know,
the best way

that he could
articulate it, right,

is that he's not super sure,

he was really angry
and really upset

and he had this thought
in his head

that he wanted
to hurt someone

and it's a matter of all of
these factors coming together

at, at a very particular point

and then not having
the equipment to not act.

That's the difference
between a 14-year-old

who does something like this
and a 32-year-old

who does something like this.

Swartz (over video call):
Well, I do think your report

is gonna be really helpful.

Crossing our fingers
that the commissioners will read

something that we put
in front of 'em.

Thanks for taking
the time to talk.

Sure, alright, yeah.
Thanks.

♪♪

Swartz:
Chad's next parole interview

is scheduled for a little over
a month from now.

We're gonna have him
submit Dr. Wiita's report

which says that he doesn't pose
any risk or danger to anyone.

The commissioners
spend a lot of their time

focusing on the details
of the crime.

And they've said that Chad
has failed to show remorse.

So we practice his ability
to tell the story,

to convey everything
that he's actually feeling
about what he did

and not just keeping
everything behind a mask.

Oh, my God.
You're wasting away.

-How are you?
-Nice to see you.

-Nice to see you.
-Hey, how's it goin'?

-Lookin' good.
-Oh, thanks, yeah.

-You look good.
-Baby bump. Come sit.

Okay, let's talk about
this next upcoming interview

and how to answer some of
these really tricky questions.

Okay.

So do you wanna just practice

what I think is probably

one of the hardest questions
of the day,

-which is just like--
-Ask away.

I already know what's coming.
Go ahead.

(chuckles) Just-- Okay, so,
what happened that day?

Um, August 1st, 1990, um,

um, my mother was
in the hospital that day.

I was working
in our high school.

I took off of work,

even though I was
expressly forbidden to

because I wanted to see
my mother in the hospital.

I went into the room,
you know,

"Hi, Mom. How you doing?
How you feeling?"

And everything just
went downhill from there.

I mean, the first thing
she said to me was,

-"Why are you here?"
-Swartz: Hmm.

Um, for me, that was
a serious slap in the face.

I'm not hearing,
"Why are you here?"

I'm hearing,
"I don't want you."

Looking back on it now,

it's not that
she didn't want me there,

it's she was in a lot of pain.

But I didn't see it like that,

so, you know,
that kinda set me off.

Now I'm angry,
I'm thinking to myself,

"My own mother
doesn't like me.

"The person who gave birth
to me doesn't love me.

Nobody wants me."

I came home,
I'm just stewing,

and I'm like,
"I'm, I'm gonna hurt somebody."

I didn't care.

I, I literally was like,
"My life is over."

Why did you say or feel,

"I'm gonna hurt somebody"?

For me, if I can
make somebody--

That's what I've
come to realize now.

If-if I made somebody feel
worse than I was feeling,

I thought it made me
felt better,

but it didn't.

I called Cindy up, you know,

I asked her,
"What are you doing?"
She said, "Nothin'."

I said, "Alright.
meet me at the high school."

I grabbed my fishing knife
and went there.

Next thing I know she's walking
across the ball field,

pushing a stroller.

I'm like, "What are you doing?

I thought you said
you were doing nothin'."

She was like,
"Oh, I'm just babysitting."

I said, "That's not
doing nothing."

And that just set me off,
like, she lied to me,

which, you know, obviously,

look, that I lied to her to get
her to come and hurt somebody.

Um...

from there it just...

I grabbed her. It progressed.

Um, I ended up, uh,
stabbing her multiple times.

And that little boy
was crying and...

I, uh...

I killed two children.

Swartz:
As a child.

Yeah.

Because of my anger,
because I wasn't able

to understand what I was feeling
and what I was doing.

I, I really didn't grasp it.

And that rage...

it's like I saw red,

is the best
I can explain it.

-Swartz: Mm-hmm.
-And...

there was no rational thought
or understanding

or anything
getting into my head.

I'm looking back
and just sitting here,

I'm like this...

Excuse me but,
"This shit isn't rational.

-"This is, this is crazy."
-Swartz: Yeah. Yeah.

"It doesn't make sense.
It doesn't add up."

I, I don't know
how to express it

-anymore than I'm sorry.
-Swartz: Right.

I, I don't-- I mean, I--

You've lived your life
for the last 32 years

in a way that expresses
remorse and change.

There is nothing
that can make up for my actions

but that's not
stopping me from chasing it.

Maybe this time they'll see it.

I'll be interested to see what
happens with Wiita's report,

since it's gonna be
in front of the board.

-November will tell, right?
-Yeah.

Forty-five, forty-seven days
or something?

Okay. Alright.

-Alright.
-Alright.

You have a good, safe trip.

Swartz:
Yeah.

♪♪

New York has taken the position

that there is no problem
with the juvenile sentences

because guys like Chad who were
convicted at 13, 14, 15,

are able to go
before the board of parole.

I would argue
that the board of parole

is allowed to continue
to deny him

parole release in perpetuity,

then how is that
not a life sentence?

I've heard
that Connecticut is, um,

trying out some new reforms

when it comes
to juvenile justice.

Juvenile offenders
in Connecticut

can be eligible
for a special hearing

for people who committed
a crime before they turned 18.

newscaster:
Connecticut today
passed Public Act 15-84,

which grants
new parole eligibility

for juvenile offenders
serving long sentences.

speaker: Good morning.
This is the session of the
Board of Pardons and Paroles.

The purpose
of your appearance today

is to tell the board
why you are seeking release.

Deborah Smith-Palmieri:
The Public Act 15-84

is a juvenile
reconsideration hearing

where an individual
is 18 and under,

and they're sentenced
to more than 10 years.

Carlos Rebollo
was only 15 years old

when he was convicted of arson
in the first degree

and attempt to commit murder.

He was sentenced
to 45 years.

He's now in his late 30s.

He is first having
a commutation hearing.

If granted, it would move
his 15-84 date earlier.

I want to thank
the board for granting me

the opportunity
to apologize for my actions.

I not only violated the life
and person of Miss Grace Glen

but I invaded her home.

I left her to live with
a tragedy that was senseless.

commissioner:
I can't help
but keep going back

to the fact
that you were 15,

but now as I look
at your disciplinary reports,

fights, assaults, contraband,
disobeying orders, language.

All of a sudden, they
pretty much stop at age 19.

Carlos Rebollo:
Mm-hmm.

commissioner:
So where do you think

that transition started
to take hold of you?

When I entered prison it was
a very chaotic environment

and I had the mentality of,

I just didn't care
about anything.

As I started to mature,
I began to understand

how, you know,
monstrous in a sense--

commissioner:
Yeah, that, that's probably
the right word.

Definitely have
turned things around.

Smith-Palmieri:
When we had Carlos
before the board

for a commutation hearing,
we reduced his prison sentence

to a point where he would
then be eligible

for this 15-84 hearing.

These cases are taking a look
at that's where they were then,

and fast forward,
in this particular case,

twenty-two years later,

you know, he's not
that same person.

-commissioner 2:
Congratulations, Carlos.
-Okay, thank you.

Thank you guys very much.

The 15-84
juvenile parole hearings

are completely different
from the adults'

in that they're considering
that the brain

is not fully developed
until you're 25 years old,

that you're unable, uh,

to appreciate the consequences
of your actions,

that children
are highly impulsive

and easily influenced to,
um, peer pressure.

And all of these factors
that were actually considered

aggravating factors
are now mitigating.

♪♪

So, this is a picture
with me and my son

when I was 15 years old.

He must have been
maybe three months old

and I wanted to be
in his life.

I'm most excited and nervous
about just hugging my son.

I just... I just wanna know
what that's like. That's it.

I have a hearing
in two months

as my first parole
hearing under 15-84,

and I'm preparing for it.

Trivedi:
Todd was
transferred facilities.

You don't get any notice.

The Department of Corrections
wants to,

quote-unquote,
"shake things up"

so that people
don't get too familiar.

You know, Elmira was Todd's home
for the last seven, eight years

and he was given
a few hours' notice

that he was leaving that place
never to return.

We're about 60 days away
from his next appearance.

Depending on
how Todd's feeling,

I'll start to ramp up
my prep with him

to get him
in the best possible mindset.

Todd:
I sat here in my cell.

You know, I'm in there
by myself and reading

and praying
and contemplating.

So that's the thing
where I was telling you

I was really thinking
about this,

what you said,
about the circumstances...

and conveying that to them

without it
sounding like an excuse.

So, so a lot of times
it sounds like an excuse to me.

It's just the,
the conveyance of things.

People think that you was in it

for the sparkly things
and the lavish things.

-Mm-hmm.
-And that's not, you know...

um, you, you,
helping somebody

and they
refinance their house

and you paying
the mortgage, you know?

I think it's
a really important distinction

between, "I was
driving fancy cars,"

and, "I was paying
my grandmother's mortgage."

You know, and,
"I was feeding my siblings."

-Right.
-Right?

The hardest thing
is to be able to say

to the commissioners,
I think, like, look,

I'm telling you this
because it explains

how I came to be a person

who took orders
from other people.

-Right. Right.
-Right?

But then, you gotta, you gotta
walk yourself all the way up

to the thing itself.

-Which is Eddie Byrne.
-Right.

This is all about explaining
like how we--

That is the toughest part
right there.

The, the connection.

Will they really believe that?

Sometimes it's hard
to explain a bad thing,

like, "Oh, man, I really
participated in this?"

I really...
you know, it ain't just today.

It's every day
I gotta deal with this.

It's a part of my life.

That guilty part
is still there.

And it's not an easy thing
to explain.

It's... shameful, you know?

But I, I gotta do it.

Trivedi:
This place makes it feel like
you are what you did, right?

And for parole commissioners,

I think it's really helpful
to separate those two things.

To say, like,
I know who I am, right,

and in this one room,
I need to focus on what I did.

But those are not
the same thing.

I know I'm being
tough on you,

but I need you to walk in there
believing in your own capacity

to really, like, open your heart
and show them who you are.

And part of who you are
is a person

who has been through all of this
and who did these things.

I got you.

♪♪

Chad:
This will be
my tenth parole board,

and what is my mindset?

I'm gonna be in prison
for another ten years.

That's just a way
to protect myself.

At the same time,

I'm very hopeful
about this one.

commissioner:
I know you've been seen

a number of times by the board.

Chad:
Yes, ma'am.

commissioner:
How long have you
been incarcerated now?

Chad:
Thirty-two years
and three months.

commissioner:
I was really impressed

by the contents
of your parole packet.

I can tell
that you really spent

your term of incarceration

thinking about
everything that happened.

Chad:
I destroyed two families.

I took everything from them.

I don't know
if there's any words

that I could
possibly say to them

that would alleviate
all their hurt and pain

and anguish I put them through.

Just how truly sorry I am.

commissioner:
Do you think you deserve

to be released, Mr. Campbell?

Chad:
I think I've earned
consideration.

commissioner:
I met you years ago,

there's some
personal growth here.

(birds chirping)

-Chad (on phone): Hello.
-Swartz: Hey.

-Chad: Hey, how you doin'?
-Swartz: Good.

We don't have
a decision yet, do we?

Chad:
No, I was hoping we did,
we do not have a decision yet.

Okay.

Chad:
But the interview
went very well.

It was by far the most
I've ever been comfortable
in a hearing.

She highlighted
a lot of things,

my personal statement,

things I've done
educationally.

Swartz:
What about Wiita's report?

Chad:
Yeah, she mentioned that,

we didn't talk anything
about it though.

That's interesting.

Chad:
Well, they asked me, you know,
"What were you thinking,

what were you feeling,"
kinda things

and I was actually
comfortable enough

where I got real choked up

and I couldn't ask
for a better hearing.

The more I think about it,
I really have a shot.

I'm definitely hoping,
but I'm thinking

that this might be the one.

♪♪

As far as having
second chances,

uh, you know, I'm--
I, you know, I support that.

I mean, are we going to
incarcerate a young person

that commits a brutal crime
for as long as they live?

I don't know that that's fair,

the Supreme Court
says it's not.

In New York, we put that in
the hands of the parole board.

All I can say about it
is I'm glad I'm not making
those decisions

'cause... I-I don't know,
they have a tough job.

(camera shutters clicking)

Ferguson:
One of the things
that's often said

is that a person can change
everything about themselves

but they can't change
the crime that they did.

So when you do do it,
you can't resurrect someone.

You've caused permanent harm.

Shapiro:
The line in the sand is that

if you've done something
horrible in your life,

you're a horrible person
and we can't let you out.

I think the rest of us believe

that we're all more than
the worst things

we've ever done in our life.

Gallivan:
The members of
the border of parole,

commissioners,
really do have a lot of power

when it comes to
the individual's liberty.

And I think the commissioners
who do their job properly,

do have that weight
on their shoulders.

♪♪

Smith-Palmieri (on monitor):
Good morning, Mr. Rebollo.

Carlos:
Good morning.

Smith-Palmieri:
This 15-84 hearing

is being conducted
in consideration

of the parole application
for Carlos Rebollo,

who is serving 39 years
for arson first,

and attempt
to commit murder.

Good morning Mr. Rebollo.

You've been incarcerated
for 24 years.

Can you talk a little bit about
when you entered prison,

some of the obstacles
that you had

and how you overcame them?

I remember
that in my mentality,

I'm thinking
that my life was over

and there was no reason
to try to be better at all.

I ran into many inmates
who were serving life sentences

and they were walking
around smiling.

And I asked one of them,
you know,

"How could you be so happy
under such circumstances?

You're never going home."

And his response to me was,
"Life doesn't end here.

"You know,
you still have a choice

in how you wanna
live your life."

And that had
a great impact on me.

(on monitor) And that reflection
actually allowed me

to start the process
that has led me

to take more and more
responsibility for my life.

Okay. I think
you hit the nail on the head.

(over monitor)
As a Board, as a community,

we are hopeful
that remorse is shown

through rehabilitation,

somebody bettering themselves,

you know, I, I think
that's a hard--

it's hard for the victims

to appreciate
that as, as much,

you know, they'll, they'll
never be whole again.

(over monitor)
What, what do you think
is your most

significant accomplishment

since you've been incarcerated?

(sighs)

I think that...

considering that I left my son

to grow up without a father,

(over laptop)
I've always wanted
to give him something

beyond what any
parent in prison

can claim he's given his son.

And I'm happy to say
that he tells me

that he's very proud of me.

Yep.

Carlos: And I still think
that I've done so little.

So, I'm looking forward
to giving him

more reasons to be proud.

Okay.

Mr. Rebollo, we're gonna
discuss your case now, uh,

so you may just listen
and you'll be able to hear

(over monitor)
what we're going to do.

Smith-Palmieri:
I think we're all in agreement

that Mr. Rebollo
has done remarkable.

Carlos Daniel Rebollo, Jr. says,

"I love going to see him because
he always gets me thinking.

He never gives up on me."

(over monitor) I believe that
that actually shows us

where Mr. Rebollo is today.

commissioner chair:
I make a motion
that Mr. Rebollo be released

to a halfway house placement

under the purview
of Department of Corrections

and Community Services.

-Is there a second?
-Smith-Palmieri: I'll second.

-All in favor?
-commissioners: Aye.

The chair votes aye.

Uh, it is so ordered.
Thank you.

Mr. Rebollo, congratulations,
good success to you, sir.

Thank you.

(birds chirping)

(tense music playing)

commissioner:
Good morning, Mr. Scott.

This is a reappearance
for you today.

You continue to serve
a sentence of 25 to life.

This shooting
was actually a hit.

What can you tell us
about this incident?

Todd:
I went knowing this man's life
was going to be taken.

I could have probably
even warned him

that his life was in danger.

commissioner:
You couldn't say no?

Todd:
They were like family then
in my mind

because my own family
wasn't showing me love.

It's also fear, too.

commissioner:
Say you just said no.

"I will do whatever else
you tell me to do,

but I don't wanna do that."

What would have been
the result of you saying no?

Todd:
I would have got killed.

I know this for a fact.

I didn't say this
at the last hearing

but I don't owe these guys
nothing no more.

This is something I never
wanna see happen again

to anybody, no officer.

I did all this time in jail

and I see how these kids
are weaponized by gangs.

The influences
that are thrown at them,

even though you are influenced,
you still make the choice.

commissioner:
And you're Islam now, right?

Todd:
Yes.

commissioner:
And so, you know,

your responsibility
is even greater.

Todd:
I understand.

I'm trying to
let go of my past.

I'm trying to move forward
the right way.

Y'all have a hard job.
I understand that.

This wasn't a small crime.

It was a huge thing,

and for years I always tried
to minimize my role.

I was ashamed of myself.

I made a bad choice

and I just appreciate
the chance to do good.

(music fades out)

Todd (on phone):
I have a good feeling.

You know, I feel okay.

Trivedi:
Have you ever, have you ever
felt this way before?

Todd:
Never.

What was the big, what was
the big difference, Todd,

than past ones?

(Todd speaking)

Trivedi: Mm-hmm.

Trivedi:
Yeah. Do you, do you
feel like they were--

do you feel like what you were
saying really mattered?

(Todd speaking)

What kinda compliments
were they giving you?

(Todd speaking)

Trivedi:
I'm really proud of you.

(Todd speaking)

I know, I love you too.

(Todd speaking)

Alright, my man.
Love you. Yeah.

(call ends)

(line ringing)

operator (on phone):
Woodbourne Correctional.

-Chad (on phone): Hello.
-Swartz: Hey.

Chad:
Uh, I just got my decision.

Once again,
I was denied parole.

On the bright side,

I guess if you wanted
to look at one,

is I was only denied for parole
for 12 months

this time instead of 15.

It's just frustrating 'cause
I had such a good interview

and I felt like these
commissioners were the ones.

Swartz:
The law says you were
14 at the time,

you're entitled
to a meaningful opportunity
for release.

As for the facts of the crime,
they are never going to change.

They are not allowed
to deny you

just because
the crime was serious,

and even more so
because you were a juvenile.

We just keep fighting.

Chad:
Fight's not out of me yet
but I'm just, I'm just tired.

Swartz: You know
I've believed all along

that we're gonna
win in the end,

it's just
a question of when.

In New York, we have
a lot of people like Chad

who were sentenced
as juveniles.

I believe that we'll get
him out one way or another.

Chad's case
makes me ask this question...

do we want to live
in a country

where a child commits a crime
that's terrible and horrific

and they spend
their life in prison

no matter who they become,

no matter what they turn into
as they grow and mature,

or do we wanna do
better than that?

♪♪

(line ringing)

-Todd (on phone): Hello?
-Trivedi: Hey.

Do you have the decision
there with you?

Todd:
Yeah.

(Todd speaking)

"...a reward for
good conduct." Yeah.

(Todd speaking)

Oh, motherfuck.

(Todd speaking)

Trivedi:
But, Todd, it's not
about rehabilitation,

it's about
fuckin' headlines, man.

I really think that.

It's, it's about who...

who is gonna lead to

a "New York Post" headline,

accusing the board
of releasing someone

they shouldn't have released.

(Todd speaking)

Trivedi:
It's fuckin' bullshit, man.

And they said
as much in the decision.

Like, you can be as
remorseful as you want,

but it won't change
what you did.

It's like,
well, if that's the game,

then why are we playing?

(Todd speaking)

Trivedi:
That's how I feel too.

I feel like human garbage,
so I'm gonna do that all day.

(Todd speaking)

Trivedi:
Yeah, and it's really
fuckin' good at it.

(Todd speaking)

Trivedi:
I'll breathe when
you're free, okay?

Listen, I love you like crazy.

(Todd speaking)

Love you, too.

(call ends)

(solemn music playing)

(sighs)

That decision he just read me
essentially says,

"It doesn't matter
what you do

"and it doesn't matter
what you say.

"What you did
is reprehensible

and that you are irredeemable."

Todd:
I've done everything.

I've done more than
what they asked, you know?

Y'all seen the parole packet.

I have letters from, um,
correctional officers,

staff, the superintendent,
assemblymen,

you know, that,
"This man..." You know?

So I don't know
what their reasons is.

I've been truthful,
I've been open,

I've taken accountability.

I've-I've expressed my remorse,

my real remorse, you know?

I'm at wit's end with it.

Where's the sense
of rehabilitation at?

It seems like
the parole board

is stuck on looking at
the crimes of years ago

than the steps
you took to maturity

and turning things around
with your life.

And that's, that's what
it should be about.

♪♪

Chad:
Hope in prison is probably
the only thing

that keeps people
sane and alive.

So, I mean, I'm hopeful, but,

it's like...

what more can I do?

Tell me what you want me to do
and I'll do it.

I don't have a problem
with that.

I owe everybody that.

But, it's just,
as you can see, I just--

it's just, it gets hard.

It gets hard.

(light music playing)

Sabrina:
People think that everybody
in prison is monsters

and that's not the truth.

And people go in broken
and come out fixed.

Everybody deserves
a second chance.

♪♪

I don't know.

Just to think of him
walking out that door...

(sniffles)

just, just overwhelming.

(sighs)

♪♪

Todd:
In here, when you
look out the window,

you see wild geese,

I've seen deers out there
and you see woods

so I don't know
where I'm at.

All I know
it's Central New York.

I never had a dream
about freedom.

The last dream I had
was about
walking out the door.

I wonder
what it would be like,
you know?

♪♪

Sabrina: I believe
in Todd and I believe

one day he's gonna get
those three people that say,

"You've had enough.
You did your time."

And he's gonna go home.

♪♪

(Carlos gasps)

Carlos:
I love you a lot.

Carlos Rebollo, Jr.:
I love you too.

(Carlos sighs deeply)

♪♪

♪♪

♪♪

(music fades out)