All language subtitles for Brian and Maggie s01e02.eng

WALDEN: What is this change
she's hoping to bring?

Isn't that worth finding out?

Governments aren't conducted
on visions, are they?

Oh, no, no, no.
It's a reality.

I see these conversations
as opportunities.

The function of a political
interview isn't to provide

a platform for politicians.
So they make a judgment about her?

It's to break apart the platform.

You don't fancy a drink, do you?

One mistake and THEY
will have me out.

I reckon there's no-one you won't be
able to see off, Margaret.

The relationship between
a Prime Minister

and Chancellor needs to be
very, very close. Absolutely.

WOMAN: Switchboard have Brian Walden
on the phone. Erm, yes.

Would you pass that on to Bernard.

DIAL TONE

Hold on.

We're less than two days away
from the biggest interview

of her career -
now maybe my career, too -

and we're wasting time
on this rubbish about what?

About 30 what? 30 classic,

identifiable ways politicians use
to avoid answering questions.

A nation is waiting to hear

why the most successful partnership

in modern British politics
has just imploded.

Listen, they've been studying
television interviews...

Yeah, studying!
I've been DOING them.

And the most common 30 tactics
used to avoid answering are...

Oh, Christ on a bike, my old son!
I've heard them all!

"Minister, what about this bad thing
that happened over here?"

"Well, what I think people up and
down the country

"are more interested in,
is this other thing instead."

"Look, the real point is..."

Oh, "look"!
I can't stand "look"!

"Look, I'm saying,
like I'm a straight-up fellow

"who just wants to get to the point,
when really, I'm using 'look'

"to pivot to an entirely
different point."

"Look, I'm not going into
hypotheticals now."

Yeah, right. Yeah.

That's number 20. With regards to
Thatcher, Brian...

Look, when...
Look, you've got me doing it now.

ALL CHUCKLE
But, look,

when it comes to the old girl, OK,

I...I get her to talk. You do.

And her mean reply rate is higher
than most other politicians.

She actually does want to talk,
to debate.

Her main tactic is number four -
questioning the question.

All right. Well, thank you, but...

I will get her to answer.

I always get her to answer.

We wanted to raise -
"we" being myself and Geoffrey

and the Governor of
the Bank of England...

I know who everyone is, Nigel.

Raise the issue...?

Of Europe again, Prime Minister.

And in particular,

the proposed European Exchange
Rate Mechanism.

Excuse me,
the Exchange Rate Mechanism.

Well, forgive me,
but I thought we were here

to discuss our economic plan.

This is regarding
the economy, Margaret.

Our plan is working,

the great hulking liner is finally
turning,

but we can't deny it,

it's all incredibly vulnerable.
Bound to be.

We've introduced some shock
into the system.

And it's still trying
to... to settle.

It's about stability, Margaret.

And tying sterling to
the Deutschmark would create that.

Chancellor, you and I know

that when it comes to our ties
with Europe,

free trade is one thing -
who doesn't believe in that?

I campaigned to stay in
Europe during the referendum,

because of trade.

But sacrificing Britain's
fiscal powers,

the political freedom
to manage our destiny?

I think that's a little exaggerated,

and the Governor of
the Bank of England agrees.

That's right, Prime Minister,

with inflation rising again,
currencies unstable...

And Foreign Secretary, Geoffrey?

We can't risk being
isolated, Margaret.

The Cabinet is pretty agreed
on a single union...

No, it isn't! How can it be?!

I'm the leader of the Cabinet
and I don't agree,

so it is NOT "agreed"!

Why did you all arrive together?

Arrive? I'm sorry?

Today, this morning,
you all came over together,

from the direction of
the Treasury. I saw you.

Makes me wonder if I've missed
the real meeting.

Oh, Margaret, we just...

We bumped into each other
en route...

Alan thinks that binding currencies
is a ploy

to creating one single currency.

Alan?

Not Alan Walters?

Who even is he?
He's my adviser, Nigel.

This is the Treasury,
it must be led by...

I've got my advisers, Nigel.
You've got your advisers.

No. I've heard your case
and I am vetoing it for now.

We can revisit Europe
when we've got a firmer grip

on the other gears of the
economy, Nigel,

doing what you do so well.
Domestic matters.

Yes, Prime Minister.

DOOR OPENS

What do I have to do?
It's always the same.

Patronising, condescending...

They'll leak it.

It's happened in the past,
it's happening more.

Europe!

HE SCOFFS
The old trouble at t'mill.

Now, if you gave me greater
latitude, I could start

getting ahead of these types
of stories.

Write the stories better ourselves,

with those friends in
the press eager to hear it.

Those who appreciate what we're
trying to achieve, yes.

The recipient of the Richard
Dimbleby Award this year

can only be described as the true
master

of the long-form interview.

Television's chief interrogator,
Brian Walden.

CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

Thank you. Thank you.

My, oh, my...

I, er... I stand here
on the shoulders of giants.

Um, we should be proud in
this country

that we've made the political
interview

a more effective instrument
of liberty

than any other peoples in
the democratic world.

And in a changing world,

it's something which should be
protected and celebrated.

And that, I suppose,
is all I've tried to do.

So, thank you.

CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

Why would you stop now, Brian?
You'll miss it.

We did a great thing, Coxy.

You did, the great strategus.

No-one's doing long,
forensic interviews any more.

Now, it's all breakfast TV bollocks.

Cosy chit-chats on the sofa,
five minutes long.

Questions unanswered.

Politicians spouting
their own agendas.

I mean, we came on air
in a time of chaos, confusion...

Yeah, it needed dissecting.

I'm looking forward to retirement,

nice little column
in The Sunday Times.

Enjoy the new home
over the water

where I can read, play chess...

Avoid tax.

If one more person prints that I...!

I did not move to Guernsey for the
tax. It was the...

Look... Food.
HE LAUGHS

Anyway, it turns out I was all right
at all this after all.

A good interviewer in the end.

BRIAN CHUCKLES

Goodnight, Brian.

TV REPORTER: Well, she's done it.

The first Prime Minister
in over 150 years

to win three consecutive terms.

Given the stress of the economy,

it's frankly increasingly hard

to imagine anyone else in charge.

? You've got the brawn,
I've got the brains

? Let's make lots of... ?

MURMURING

Mr Speaker,

I am reliably informed
that my Budget speech

will have a claim to a place in
the history books!

ALL CHORTLE

The last un-televised
Budget speech.

This Government has already reduced
the top rate of income tax

from the absurd 83%,
under Labour, to 60%.

Now, I believe that it's time for
a further reduction in the top rate.

I propose to abolish ALL higher
rates of tax!

CHEERING

I'm sure she won't be long, Brian.
All good, don't fret.

FOOTSTEPS

Brian! Margaret.

It's been a while. It has.

How are the family?
How's retirement?

All good. Print is a lot less
exhausting than television.

Well, shall we get started?

Sit. Sit, please.

Are you not taking notes?

Oh, I thought we'd start, um,

with a bit of general chit-chat, background.

You know, like the old days...

Except that I want
a few things out there,

as it were, with your help.

What's mine is yours.

Um...

So, quite the Budget fireworks.

Yes, Nigel is a genius
at all that, isn't he?

And our shared plan is going pretty
well - record growth.

Yes, of course, but it's all a bit
relentless, isn't it?

Exhausting, even.

Don't you worry the public will
become weary

of this constant sense
of mission,

of battling on all fronts?

Don't you yearn for calmer periods?
For a for a rest, even? A rest?

No Prime Minister

this century's had a bigger impact
on the nation -

bar Attlee and Churchill.

That's... That's some legacy.

Yes, I'm very, very pleased to have
increased the wealth of the nation,

and of those individuals
willing to work hard

and claim their share of it.

Well, you're now a millionaire
yourself, aren't you, Brian?

Ah, well, um...

Er, yes, I am.

I heard, off the record,

that you took a line
out of Nigel's speech?

Something about Europe
and fixing currencies?

Fixing currencies?

Goodness,
that does sound awfully dry.

No, on the future,
on what's coming up.

Water privatisation.

There you are.

Private companies competing,

finding inefficiencies...

Well, then, on the future, um,

who do you see as your
natural successor?

Off the record, I don't.

What? I don't see one. Do you?

Well, the other architects
of Thatcherism - Nigel, Geoffrey...

The other?

I think the clue is in the name,
isn't it?

Well, look, on a personal level,
Margaret,

I worry that if you are less
connected to the party,

less available to your colleagues,

to everyone, than you used to be...

Less available?
How am I less available?

Well, you remain this compelling,

almost bewildering fascination
to people.

To me, still, you're like this
wild, exotic animal in a zoo.

Well, I mean, as you know,
Parliament has caved

and is now letting cameras
into the Commons.

The lens, scrutinising us,
as we tussle and debate.

You don't get much more available
than that, now, do you?

Anyway, anything you can do to plant
a few of those flags

for the wobblers.

The wets.

WALDEN: I have interviewed
the Prime Minister

many times over the years.

She currently sees no successor,

and will want to lead her party
into the 1991 election.

Even 1995.

Yet, the Margaret Thatcher I know

is not the one I read about.

I find her frank, without snobbery

and willing to tolerate
and fair bit of leg-pulling.

I've never met this other Thatcher,

the archfiend who
has no human feelings

and cannot be contradicted.

Caroline,

I'd like another session
with Veronique today.

Yes, thank you.

RECEIVER CLICKS

She always denies it,

but the accusation that she is
ill-tempered and authoritarian

does wound her, and drives this
passionate woman

back inside herself.

I worry that such repression leads
one toward greater stubbornness

and imbalance, there to mask a deep
loneliness within.

BUBBLING

CHEERING

Bravo!

CHEERING AND APPLAUSE CONTINUES

What a decade! What a woman!

CHEERING
What a leader!

ALL: Hear, hear!
Yes!

Never before!

You'd have to go back to the 1800s!

And the way
she has smashed through!

CHEERING

Thank you, Bernard, let's not make
a song and dance about it.

Forgive me, I'm zipping it.
MUFFLED: It's closed.

No, and, actually,

joking aside, I mean it.

Because, you see, anniversaries
are fun, they're very nice,

but they're naturally focused on
the past.

That place where all
of our predecessors

have been determined to return.
MAN: That's right!

Well, I'm not going to live there!

I'm only interested in the future.

Well said!

To a fourth term!
CHEERING

Maybe a fifth!
CHEERING

Because, you see, you can change
a country in a decade.

Think of Britain in 1979,

a place that had lost
its convictions,

was exhausted,
couldn't keep the lights on.

And now, look, that's what we
survey, from these giddy heights.

The ruins of socialism.

CHEERING

There is still plenty to do.
So, yes, chin-chin,

but let's get on and do it!

CHEERING

Ten and not out.

Bravo, Maggie!

And here's to ten more years.

CHEERING

THATCHER: How lovely to see you...

Alan sodding Walters.

That was pretty bloody confident
of him.

Tactical, more like.
Who the devil does he think he is?

Part-time adviser,
playing the fucking favourite.

Well, I could schedule
a "wind your neck in" meeting,

if we're at the
"wind your neck in" stage.

Do whatever you like.
She always does.

...doing the rounds again,

rather on contravention of official
policy...

I think she's losing her instinct.

The way she speaks, behaves...

Well, we should consider giving her
a gentle ultimatum.

Europe - we want further in
or we resign.

In Madrid, next European Council.

Stand up to her.

Yes, I better had.

Look at you, Alan.
Professor of Economics,

born into poverty,
left state school with nothing.

Kesteven and Grantham Girls School.

Westminster. Winchester. Eton.

Haberdashers' Aske's.
Westminster.

Their problem is they think
the job is done,

no more hard choices.

You know he's trying to link
the pound to European currencies?

It's been unofficially
shadowing the Deutschmark

for the past 11 months.

Nigel's doing.

Yes, I know.

Yes. Well, let's talk now.
Oh, so good of you to come.

I'm never going to forget.

Thank you so much.

Hello.

Fucking snake in the grass.

...you were there, because you
really helped me.

HUM OF CONVERSATION

Prime Minister.
CURTLY: Do sit.

How was Kuala Lumpur?

Geoffrey, I'm going to have
a little move around of people.

You've served your country well,

but as the Government negotiates its
new relationship with Europe,

I think fresh blood is needed
in the Foreign Office.

I should very much like to offer you

the role of Deputy Prime Minister
in the reshuffle.

Margaret... Geoffrey, don't do the
quiet voice, just speak up.

If this is about Madrid,

we just feel strongly that
further integration...

Geoffrey, I have won three
consecutive elections.

The only person to have done
so in 160 years.

I don't know who I have still
need to convince

or why I need to convince them
that I might - might -

just MIGHT know what's
best for this country.

But clearly I do.

Do you accept your new role?

I fear for you, Margaret.

This habit of just hammering away
at people...

You've been so good at vanquishing
your opponents

that you've run out of enemies.

And I worry, in looking for them,
you might create them.

Do you accept?

I will serve the Government
in whatever capacity.

Prime Minister.

Coxy! Hiding under a bridge
like a troll.

How are you doing, my old son?

I'm good, you know. Um, shall we?

You see this?

Yes, I still have all my faculties.

"Is it curtains for this instrument
of democratic dialogue?"

The franchise is up for renewal
and LWT

is down on its public service quota.

The amount of money they would
throw at you to come back.

I have enough money, David.

How much?
And also, how does this sound?

LIGHTER CLICKS
The Walden Interview.

HE CHUCKLES

That's a bit gauche, isn't it?

Yeah, well, it doesn't have
to be that.

Well, hold on, just got to get used
to it. Come on.

Let's get all the pointy heads
back together again,

proper forensic interviews
once more.

Things are shifting, Brian,

they're not as certain as they
once were,

She's not.

Surely you can see that.

Bernard Ingham called.

Thatcher will do an interview.

So long as it's you.

Brian.

CHEERING AND APPLAUSE
Oh, no...

No, please, please.

Yes, yes...

Ah, the pointy heads!

The nerds have retaken Rome.

ALL LAUGH

Your revised diary
for the rest of the week,

tonight's thing at
the Royal Society

and the Walden interview Saturday -

recorded in the morning,
going out Sunday. Mm-hm. Good.

And?

The Chancellor of
the Exchequer's here, Margaret.

We weren't due to meet till 9.45.

Yes. I know.

Tell him I'll be down in a minute.

Morning, Nigel. Morning.

I wasn't expecting you so early.
Shall we?

Right, come on in. Why don't you
sit down? I will stand, thank you.

I'm afraid I have come to the view
that my position is untenable.

Oh, goodness, Nigel,
are we really going to

go through this all over again!
How many more times?!

My authority as Chancellor is being
undermined again...

Nobody is undermining you, Nigel!
It's complete nonsense!

As regards to Walters,
either I'm in charge...

REPORTER: What do you think the mood
of the back benchers is today?

The mood is one of,
er, what a mess!

REPORTER: And one backbench Tory
decided not to go along

with the Thatcher backer game plan

of praising the wonderful new team,

and said instead
that Mrs Thatcher herself must go.

Mrs Thatcher's rendered
the most tremendous services

to the Party and to the nation.

And I...I said, this is now the time
for her

to render the supreme service
and, actually, to step down.

It can only be downhill
for her from now on.

And we just happen
to have her on air in two days.

So, we're tossing everything
out, then?

No, not everything, not the
substance of it,

but we do need... No need for this.

We're going to have to open hard
with "Who is to blame? Him or her?"

We've been hitting backbenchers
with the phones.

What, literally?

There's a phrase that keeps
coming up over and over -

"off her trolley".

I mean, they genuinely think she
might be losing it.

Well, I'm not about to level that
at the Prime Minister.

It's bloody rude for a start.

And sexist, if you ask me.

"Women of a certain age..."

Yeah.

Er, David?

Thoughts, approach?

Well, this is now about
her character.

When a single individual becomes
an "-ism",

so embedded in the fabric of
the country that, frankly,

her character has become
the character of the country,

that we are all, like it or not,
Thatcherites now.

Well, shouldn't we know a little bit
more about who that person is

and how she is,
and what is she becoming?

And like it or not,

we happen to have just about the
only person in the media who got

anywhere near to knowing her.
PHONE RINGS

Very well. David, phone call.

We're doing a programme
about her, about who she is.

So, let's get going again.

Hello, Cox. Where do we start?
How do we get into this, because...?

HE SHUSHES
Ingham!

Look, it's not going to work for us.
We did ask for flowers. Flowers?

Dressing on the set.
It looks too hard. No... We never.

She wants flowers.
She finds them calming.

Or in her eye-line at least.

No, we don't have flowers on
this show, Bernard.

Vigorous and fair analysis,
yes, but not flowers.

Sorry, I must insist
or we might have to...

LINE DISCONNECTS

Is it me or did I kept hearing
the word "flowers"?

They're trying to soften her.
Won't work.

They're panicking.

They'll pull it.

She won't want to lose face.

She'll do it.

She will.

Because she trusts you, Brian.

Well, it happens to all of them,
in the end, doesn't it?

Caesar, Napoleon - power corrupts.

What do they say, after seven years
they all basically go mad?

Maybe she has lost her instincts.

I mean, look at
the Poll Tax - madness.

From a levy on property
to a tax on individuals?

A pensioner
paying the same as a duke,

that's not
the Thatcherism I understood.

It's the Thatcherism I understood.

Oh, OK, go on. Sorry,
but I know you, historically...

No, let's thrash it out,
like we always do.

Are you not better off now than you
where ten years ago?

Well, define "better off" and...

Money in your pocket. OK, well,
I bet I'm not half as better off

as those at the very top who've...

Ah, right, I see, so it's class
envy, I see. I am agreeing with you.

The Poll Tax, there's always
been a blindness

to some of the losers of the
project, the victims...

Victims of what? Of affluence?

Jesus Christ,
from the places YOU come from.

The Midlands, the North,

stripped of their manufacturing base
for a dominant... Yes... Yes.

...service industry in the South.

The efficient outstripping
the inefficient.

Hard work - reward.
The fairest system we have.

You don't believe that.

There is real pain, Brian...

I'm not saying I believe it,
but we're testing it,

and I would say that most ordinary
folk don't mind the pain

that comes with higher wages,

greater consumer choice,
nicer cars...

We used to have communities.

And now we just have stuff.

There you go, don't argue.

Well, well, the man of the hour.

Here with friends.

So, you must all feel like
the cat who's got the cream.

Or the interview of the year.
And, er...

Oh, what timing. And I suppose...

Yes, she's still doing it.

As if she wouldn't. Her?

Even though it'll all be about
Lawson now.

Anybody else, can you imagine?

Back out in a heartbeat,

but Margaret...

Do you think you actually know her?
The person.

I mean I...I claim
to understand her,

but I wonder if I do.

I wonder if anyone does.

Any steers would, of course,
be welcome, as per.

On the record, above board.

"Off her trolley"?

HE GRUNTS

And he's your favourite for
a reason.

And he's a friend.

Be a walk in the park.

If we're - you're -

finally going to break open
Thatcherism, her platform,

you may need to break her first.

And what if I helped her build it
in the first place?

I'm good. I'm a good interviewer,

I know what I have to do.

The music has stopped,

and I'm the one in the chair.

But it's up to her.

If she wants to listen
and engage, and help herself,

then we can move on.

Or she can hang herself.

But it's up to her.

Brian, you're not
a GOOD interviewer...

...you're an exceptional one.

Just this way, please,
Prime Minister. Thank you.

Margaret. How are you?

Well, Brian, always well.

Now, I expect you'll be starting off

with you-know-who
and you-know-what...

Hello, good morning.

...but I do hope we can then move on
to something of more substance.

Like we usually do.

FLOOR MANAGER: OK. All set?

Roll VTR. Standby, Studio.

Okey dokey. Here we go, then.
Good luck.

Good afternoon.

Nigel Lawson's shock resignation
has plunged the Prime Minister

into the most serious political
crisis of her career.

Prime Minister,

many people, including many
of your supporters,

blame you for the resignation.

Prime Ministers don't survive their
Chancellors resigning.

Now, how you respond
to these claims

may be of crucial significance
for you personally

and for your government.

And so I put it to you -
are you to blame?

Well, we have done very well
together for the past six years

and very well for Britain,

and I think the results
are clear to see.

To me, the Chancellor's position
was unassailable.

I always supported him
and I said quite clearly,

"Advisers are there to advise,
Ministers are there to decide."

And that is how we did business

and we did so very successfully.

I tried very hard to dissuade
the Chancellor from going,

but he had made up his mind.
But...

So, in the end, I had to accept his
resignation

and appoint someone else.

But you are not claiming,
Prime Minister,

and I must press you on this,
clearly, Lawson did not think

you were seen to agree or he would
not have resigned. He did resign.

Nigel's position, as I said to him,
is unassailable. He's...

Well, he's not now, is he?
He's gone. That is his choice.

Oof. Wow, strike one.

Unassailable, it's not true,
he wasn't,

but she keeps saying it.

We don't let that slide.

Good, Brian, don't let up.

I tried to persuade him to stay.

I could not believe he would go

when he has been such
a strong Chancellor.

I was sad,

but then, one had to accept it

and set about refashioning
one's Cabinet.

But, Prime Minister,
it is fairly clear, is it not,

what was getting up Nigel's nose.

It was not that you had
an economic adviser, Alan Walters,

who quietly and silently would
whisper things into your ear...

Brian, I am not getting involved
in this tittle-tattle.

...in the still watches of the
night.

There are far bigger things
to consider.

I'm concerned with getting on
with the job and that I shall do.

Prime Minister, I could not agree
with you more about tittle-tattle.

As you well know, I have nothing
to do with it myself.

He's certainly pushing it.

Some argue that the constant flow
of rumour and speculation

about yourself and Walters is
undermining the pound

and the British economy.

Now, that is what
Lawson objected to.

Why did you not, when he asked you
to, sack Alan Walters?

I am not responsible for rumours.

I see many things in the press that
are totally and utterly false.

Totally and utterly.

I'm not responsible for those.

Now, let us consider policy.

All right, well,
then, let us consider Lawson.

Well, he's going for it.

We'll move on as soon as she answers
the question.

I have to take it, from the way you
have put it, Prime Minister,

that you blame Nigel for
the resignation, and not yourself?

Nigel was a very successful,

brilliantly successful Chancellor.

To me his position was unassailable
and I supported him.

Now, it is the future that matters.

It is, but it is also your political
position, Prime Minister,

and I have to question you about
that, and you know that I do.

Yes, do. Do question, go ahead.

So, let me ask you again,

why did Nigel resign?

You said that he knew he
was unassailable

and he knew that you loved him,

and everything was marvellous,
but he resigned.

Now, people are going to
want to know why.

I think that is a question you must
put to him and not to me.

Well, he's coming on next week,
so I will have the chance.

She didn't know. Look at her.

But I have to put it back to you,
and you know that I do,

he was unassailable, you say,

you were in complete agreement,
you say,

and everything was going well,
you say,

and Nigel said, "Margaret, you have
got to get rid of Alan Walters."

Why didn't you
and keep your Chancellor?

I am concerned
with future policy...

I want to come on to future policy,
but I also want to clear this up,

which will not just go away.

One last question... Look, I...

Do you deny
that Nigel would have stayed

if you had sacked Walters?

I don't know.

Did Margaret Thatcher just admit
that she doesn't know everything?

I... I don't know.

And you never, ever thought
to ask him?

I did everything possible
to stop him.

I was not successful.

Now, you are going on asking
the same question...

Prime Minister,
that is a terrible admission.

You do not know if you could have
kept your Chancellor, possibly,

if you had sacked your
part-time adviser?

I wanted to keep him.

Now, that is the big fact of
the matter

and I'm not going on with this.

I've not really seen
Brian like this before.

That's because no-one's seen her
like this before. On the ropes.

Let me put this to you,
Prime Minister, um...

It is a point that has always
interested me

and which I feel is now
politically relevant.

It may well be that, in private,

you will have a lusty argument

and listen to the opinions
of others

and be only too happy to accept
a suggestion if it is correct,

but you never come over in public
like that, ever.

You come over as someone

who one of your backbenchers
described as being

"slightly off her trolley".

Christ, he went for it early. Uh...

20 seconds to the ad break.

Tittle-tattle arguments.
These are your backbenchers.

Now, let us get on
to the political argument, please.

It's not tittle-tattle,
Prime Minister,

When you get down to
the House of Commons this week,

I assure you, you will hear very
little else.

We must return to this
after the break.

HE EXHALES

Will you excuse me?

I want to speak to them.
This is totally unacceptable.

SHE SNIFFLES AND GASPS

Why doesn't she get it?

Why can't she bend just a little,
give an inch?

Because we were taught not to...

...people like us.

They wouldn't let us in
if we were weak.

What on earth is going on
out there?

Betrayal.

HUM OF CONVERSATION

You ready?

Yes, ready.

FLOOR MANAGER: Right, Studio...

Five, four, three, two...

I suppose I must ask you one
more time...

You have asked me, Brian, the same
question, about five times.

Er, just once more.

You say that you do not know if you
could have kept Lawson

if Walters had gone.

Did he ask you to sack Walters?

I am not going to disclose
the conversations

which the two of us had together.

I'm immensely grateful for Nigel's
stewardship as Chancellor.

And let's face it, Brian,

he... was... Chancellor.

Er, look, I cannot get you say,
Prime Minister,

what you do not want to say,
but, of course, you are aware

of what people will assume from
this discussion, aren't you?

It is one of the reasons there
has been trouble in the markets.

Now, Brian, you must be quite crazy.

Lord, what are they doing
to each other?

Do you really think that kind
of situation

between Chancellor
and Prime Minister

could have gone on for six years?

No, but it could have for 18 months,
couldn't it? One moment...

It's what everybody thinks.
No, they do not.

And you have gone from six years
to 18 months pretty smartly.

Let's get it down to 18 days
or 18 minutes, 18 seconds.

Brian, you are talking nonsense.

Now, let's get down to the way
people now copy Thatcherism,

as they call it, the world over.

The way they listen to us.

You could not have had all
of that unless Nigel and I

had worked very closely together.

We did.

Now, don't you want to face
the future?

I do, and I am ready to face it.

I am anxious to talk about the
future, Prime Minister.

Er, so, let us switch from Lawson.
Good.

There are some who'd draw
a lesson in all this.

They say, "Margaret Thatcher
has problems

"with strong, independent figures.

"Look at Heseltine.

"Look at even Sir Geoffrey Howe.

"She just cannot get on
with anyone except yes-men."

Now, is that true?

No,

and it is a great insult
to members of my Cabinet,

and you know it.

You also know, from many,
many years arguing with me,

that I enjoy a good argument.
Yes, I know.

Yes, I like strong people about me.

Yes, I'm prepared to argue anything.

Yes, I'm prepared to listen.

Why? Because I want the result
to be right.

So what you are saying again
is nonsense, and you know it.

Well, then, let me try
and sum you up,

and you do not accept that any of
the resignations

from your government
have arisen

because you cannot
handle strong men.

You like a good argument.

And in private, you'll listen
to other people's opinions,

but you come over as domineering,

refusing to listen
to anybody else. Why?

Why can you not project publicly

what you just told me is your
private character?

Brian, if anyone is coming over

as domineering in this interview,
it's you.

Hammering things home instead
of just talking about them

in a conversational way.
Do you think so?

Yes, you are very domineering
at the moment.

Now let us deal with
the authoritarian thing... quietly.

The whole characteristic of
the government that I lead

is to limit its powers,

and hand powers over to people.

It is socialism
that is authoritarian.

It is socialism that says,
"You must conform."

I am totally different.

It is the reverse.

What you are saying is the reverse.

Well, actually, I was not,
in fact, denying any of that.

It may be true, it may not be true.

But since you thought I was
domineering you,

I thought I would to let you
say a lot of it,

but you know what it is
I am getting at.

Do you not think that it would be
truer to your own nature,

if you said in front of the public,
who think you are dogmatic,

and that you are not listening
to anybody. Why don't you say,

"Well, all right,
I had a quarrel with Nigel,

"perhaps there were faults
on both sides,

"I accept a little bit of blame.

"I should have been more sensitive
to his worries."

Why don't you say that?

Neither of us is faultless.

No-one is claiming that.

Of course, we have faults.

Of course, I take the blame
for many things that go wrong.

Now and then, a little credit
for things that go right.

That is life. What is the problem?

I can almost sense the desire to
accept a measure of blame

trembling on your lips,

but it will not quite come out.

You are having a highly
artificial argument.

It is the one the country wants
to hear about.

Er, now I think the impact
of this interview, Prime Minister,

though you may think differently,

but many people will feel that
nothing that has happened has,

in any way, shaken or chastened you.

And that will, of course,
worry some of them.

They will say,
"The Prime Minister remains

"absolutely unyielding
about everything

"and although she may have done
a good job,

"it is time, perhaps,
for someone who is MORE yielding."

What do you say to that?
Nonsense, Brian.

I am staying my own
sweet, reasonable self...

OK, wind up.

...founded on very strong
convictions...

Counting down to the end. In ten...

...which are a combination
of reason and emotion. ..eight...

I feel passionately about
personal liberty. ..five...

Government is there to serve it.

I'm afraid, I must stop you there.
No, you must not.

I'm afraid, I must. Strong
leadership will continue. ..zero.

FLOOR MANAGER: All right.
Thank you, everyone.

Let's clear the studio.
That is it.

Prime Minister. Drinks?

There you are. Thank you very much.

Now, where is that...

I'll be back along shortly.

If you'd like to follow me
this way?

HE EXHALES

THATCHER: That's no excuse.
You should keep yourself informed!

You should do your homework.
MAN LAUGHS

Now, did you know
that the Dutch have already

got rid of their
foreign exchange controls?

And Luxembourg and...

Yes, yes, fascinating.

Good show, Brian.

Uh... thorough. Thank you.

Well, I think it's time I went.

Thank you very much. Thank you.

Have a great weekend, everyone.

Lovely flowers.

So...

...wonder how many'll watch?

At the end of the day,

it's only telly.

And I fear that my Right Honourable
friend, the Prime Minister,

increasingly risks leading herself
and others astray

in matters of substance,
as well as of style.

It's rather like sending your
opening batsmen to the crease

only for them to find, the moment
the first balls are bowled,

that their bats have been broken
before the game by the team captain.

LOUD EXCLAMATIONS AND LAUGHTER

We interrupt this programme
with breaking news.

Mrs Thatcher is to resign
as Prime Minister.

A short while ago, Downing Street
confirmed she's to step down

and will not be contesting the
second ballot for the leadership.

There is one statistic
that I understand

is not, however, challenged.

Over her 11 years,
the gap between the richest 10%

and the poorest 10%
has widened substantially.

What the Honourable Member is saying

is that he would rather
the poor were poorer...

CHEERING

...provided that the rich
were less rich.

That way we'll never create
the wealth

for better social services,
as we have done.

And what a policy!

They would rather
that the gap were that...!

LAUGHTER

Down here... that!

Not that...!

That.

CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

So long as the gap is smaller,

they would rather
the poor were poorer!

EXCLAMATIONS

You do not create wealth
and opportunity that way!

You do not create a property-owning
democracy that way!

CHEERING

I'm enjoying this.

I'm enjoying this!

It's a vision, but governments
aren't conducted

on visions, are they?
Oh, no, no, no. It's a reality.

It's taking all the factors into
account. It's not a vision.

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