Original subtitles

He was smart, he was clever, he was sophisticated.

He was a vice president at the Bank of America,

one of the largest financial institutions in the world.

What was there not to trust?

When I walked through these doors for the very first time,

I thought, "This is the start of something magnificent in my life."

But what happened was it was the start of one of the worst nightmares ever.

[door opens]

-[Wayne] Rajesh. -How you doing? All right?

Not bad, how are you?

-[Nicky] Good morning! -[Wayne] Come in.

-[Rajesh] Morning. You all right? -[Nicky] Yeah.

The police noticed that a payment of £1.2 million

had gone into his bank account.

[Dr. Sohom Das] Ghedia's behavior is astute and it's crafty.

Somebody that has absolutely no moral boundaries.

Very bright pupil are the best fraudster.

They use their intelligence in the wrong way.

Our whole life that morning had come tumbling down.

He would have people come and get us,

they had guns, I was so scared.

Since this happened, Wayne's just gone downhill.

Spiraled.

He goes into himself. He's detached.

[Wayne] It was an extremely dark place.

Financially, we've taken a huge hit.

He said to me time and time again, we won't lose the house.

Ghedia doesn't care who he hurts or how he hurts

along the way to defraud people.

[producer] How are you feeling?

Quit relaxed. I've got a lot of things in my head.

Virginia Water is a lovely suburb,

it's home to the Wentworth Club and Wentworth golf.

The people are very open, very easy to get along with.

[producer] How you feeling?

[chuckles] Bit nervous.

[laughs]

I've been married to Wayne for over 20 years,

and we have three beautiful daughters and two grandchildren.

One of the best things about living here

is we're right next to Windsor Great Park.

Wayne and I were quite into sports,

so we were always doing something.

We had a pretty comfortable life.

[mouse clicks]

[Kay Pillai-Sacks] Nicky's one of my closest friend,

and if I don't see her in a week's time, I need my Nicky fix.

Uh, we support each other,

we are forever playing tennis, playing mahjong, going out.

I'm at her house, she's at my house.

I'm very passionate about education.

The first 20 years of my working life in Tasmania, Australia,

I was a teacher.

Wayne was so passionate about it.

He felt that everybody needed to learn how to spell properly,

and become grammatically correct.

One of the drivers that I've always had

is to help people with their lives

to make sure that we can maximize their potential.

He spent all his time thinking of doing it.

[Wayne] We came to England in 2004.

I had good jobs at big companies,

but I was very involved in technology.

So from around 2014,

my drive has been to produce an education platform

using all the fantastic tools that digital, etcetera

bring along and incorporate that.

We'd had a group of developers in India

work on the super learning,

and it looked like it was coming to fruition.

So he wanted to put proper people onto it

and get it into the more mainstream schools.

And that really, really excited me,

and that is what I wanted to do in the later years of my working career.

Ghedia has a dog, and my husband walks our dog, and that's how they met.

We're a very close-knit neighborhood.

It's like a circle. He live in far-left corner.

They seemed normal like any other family,

his parents were living with him.

Ghedia was very active in the local community,

he wanted to be helpful, he wanted to offer all kinds of information,

how we can keep ourselves safe.

He helped this elderly lady, who had lost her husband and she was living by herself,

set up a sensor system into her driveway.

So if anybody crosses that sensor,

it beeps and she will be alerted if there's an intruder.

They never wore any kind of flashy clothes.

He was always dressed in black,

but he spent a lot when he took us out.

Ghedia and his wife invited us to have dinner with them.

There was a black taxi that took us all into London.

We went to Mayfair and we wanted to share the bill,

and he said, "Oh, no, this is my shout."

It would have been easily a £1,000 evening.

Ghedia has a lavish lifestyle.

He's got the expensive cars, he's got a luxury house,

he sends his kids to private school.

So I wonder whether there's some internal pressure

coming from himself to keep up this lifestyle.

And that pressure manifests itself in the need to earn more money.

There were 30, 35 people there I suppose.

It was a good party, lot of good vibe, a lot of good feeling.

[Kay] It was a great party.

Wayne is always happy, he's always gregarious, joking, kidding around.

Never had any serious conversation with Wayne.

Wayne is the fun guy in the party.

Towards the end of the night, this gentleman sat next to me.

We got talking. "What do you do?"

I tell him I do IT advisory,

he said he worked in the financial industry in the city.

He told me he was vice president at the Bank of America,

head of a trading desk, so it was a very, very senior job.

He said, "I've got three apartments in Mayfair.

One each for the children when they grow up."

My first impressions

were normal guy being very successful in his career.

A great family man, he spoke about his family a lot.

And these are things I really value in life.

Commitment, loyalty, trust,

honesty, aspire to a good career, being successful.

Then we started to talk about other things.

I came on to my education app, told him how excited I was.

[Nicky] I remember Wayne speaking to somebody on the couch for a long time

and becoming quite animated about it.

[Wayne] He said to me, "What do you need for your education app?"

And I'm thinking, "Hmm. Big job in one of the big banks."

I said to him, "I need a million pounds investment."

He said to me, "I think I can help you."

The environment where Wayne and Ghedia first met,

I think, is relevant.

They met at a party in the neighborhood,

and it felt like there was a close community spirit.

The adults all knew each other,

a lot of the children went to the same school.

So it would have felt safe, secure.

It doesn't seem like a typical place where a scammer or a fraudster

would be out looking for potential prey.

Fantastic. Great.

All in the group, all friends.

That must have been so exciting and enthralling for Wayne.

[Wayne] Here it is, a fantastic opportunity,

so I would do absolutely everything to make that happen.

At the end of our discussion, he said, "Look, Christmas is coming up,

very busy with the family, we're going away."

We swapped numbers,

we communicated via SMS and WhatsApp.

We agreed to meet on the 9th of January.

When I reflected on it, I thought this is just perfect and it's a fantastic thing.

And I thought, "This is fake."

So we met in the cafe and we spoke about the proposition.

[Dr. Das] When Ghedia first meets Wayne,

he really goes on this charm offensive.

[Wayne] He'd actually had a look at the website,

so he really connected with me that way.

He's done his research,

he's looked at Wayne's website,

he understands his business,

he seems to share this passion for education.

He said he needed to clear things with his work

because of the strict controls around what he could do as an employee.

He said he would start that process.

Clearly he did this so he would come across as more credible.

So this just shows how calculating

and how manipulative Ghedia was.

He told me that the Bank of America

had headhunted him from JPMorgan.

He had brought his two biggest clients over.

The Qatari royal family and the Qatari government.

The Bank of America were ecstatic about his performance.

He was a big, big deal.

I always had the concern, "Is this legitimate or not?"

He's a top executive at a big bank in the city.

I checked that out.

He had a very small digital footprint which surprised me.

I asked him about this.

He wanted to stay under the radar,

just look like a normal person but with tons of money.

We'd organized a meeting for a few weeks later.

Then he leant over and he said, "Look, I've had a think about it."

He said, "I've decided I can give you £1.5 million investment."

And I thought, "Wow, even better!"

I was bouncing off every wall, I was so excited.

[Dr. Das] Wayne initially requested around £1.2 million of an investment,

but Ghedia actually offered him £1.5 million.

So, look at it from Wayne's perspective,

and now he's got an offer for money from a very credible platform, the Bank of America.

It's almost like a dream come true for him.

We would be required to adhere to all processes from the Bank of America,

I would become a Bank of America customer.

Now to really make sure that I knew that he was absolutely honest,

I said, "Right, I want to meet you in your employment,

and I wanna communicate only through your work email."

He said, "That's absolutely perfect."

He was gonna suggest the same.

I dress up for it. Very important.

It was a very impressive building,

the Bank of America headquarters in King Edward Street.

I went into the bank, my name was there,

they had a security pass for me.

We would go through security gates.

The guards would say hello to him, they knew him.

We go down into the canteen to have our business meeting.

He would buy me lunch, again he said hello to people, they talked to him.

He was relatively low-key about his standing in the company,

but he did make it clear that he was a vice president.

In charge of trading, very big business.

Had a big team underneath him.

[Dr. Das] From Wayne's perspective,

when he gets there, everything seems legitimate.

People are waiting for the meeting,

people know who Ghedia is.

So any kinds of anxieties or doubts

that Wayne might have had in the back of his mind,

I think would have dissipated.

Just from the environment he was in.

And I could feel the energy and the vibe

from "Look, what a massive company Bank of America is."

From Ghedia's perspective, it's easier for him to exploit and to manipulate his target

by creating this environment of legitimacy for Wayne.

So it does appear like this investment that Ghedia's promised

is actually coming from the Bank of America.

There's literally no reason for anybody to suspect

that this is anything but credible.

Initially, I was surprised to hear it.

Why should I put money in?

You're investing in my company.

He explained to me it was a personal wealth portfolio

for high net-worth individuals so he was introducing me to that.

It was something that we could use and grow.

He'd spoken to the legal heads and head of compliance

and confirmed it was okay.

And I would have to invest £142,000 and when that was done,

it was opened, it was then a vehicle

where he could put in his £1.5 million

and then I could withdraw the money.

And I thought, "Great."

[Wayne] After several meetings at the Bank of America,

I met Ghedia on the 22nd of March

in Costa Coffee in Virginia Water,

and that's where we signed the contract.

One might question why Wayne would sign the contract in Costa Coffee

as opposed to doing it in the bank,

but from his perspective, he's already had a meeting in the bank.

It already seemed very legitimate,

so he's got nothing to be suspicious about.

I did have doubts about it.

Ghedia [exhales] seemed too good to be true, almost.

But because he worked for the Bank of America in a VP role,

it seemed like he knew what he was doing.

Mr. Ghedia had a genuine Bank of America email address,

he had Bank of America business cards

which identified him as a vice president.

He had access to Bank of America templates and documents.

He was able to invite Wayne into Bank of America to hold meetings.

And he was available via the Bank of America switchboard.

And that is hugely compelling to somebody in Wayne's position.

So to get £142,000 initially, uh,

I had a private investor who lent me £50,000 at quite big rates.

For the remainder of the money which was £92,000,

we had to go through a process to basically remortgage.

Again, at quite high rates.

The transfer of the money was done to an account which was a Halifax account.

I challenged him on this,

I said, "Whoa, hang on, this is a Halifax account, you're Bank of America."

He said, "This is a Bank of America desk activity account."

He had all of the documentation available, ready, for when I asked him.

He would produce it straight away.

[Dr. Das] It's obviously calculated and preplanned.

When Wayne asks him why he needs to transfer money to Halifax

rather than the Bank of America,

Ghedia has an answer for him and he's able to show him fabricated paperwork.

When I did the transfer, I checked it.

I did a practice one of £10 first.

The name on the account came up as Bank of America DOA.

And when I saw the Bank of America,

I thought, "Well, look, this, as he said, it's a Bank of America agency account."

And I took screenshots of that, I verified it with him.

"Ah, yes, I've seen it. It's come into the account. Great."

Then after doing the £10,

I transferred the larger amount.

The portfolio's open and it's got money in it. You're safe. It's done.

[Nicky] At this point, there were no alarm bells going off at all.

I didn't like the fact that we had to put money in to get money,

but it made sense that we would put some money in

and then he would sort of top it up.

We could speculate about whether Ghedia's actually feeling any guilt

at this moment in time.

And maybe he is.

But his own greed and his own narcissism far outweighs this.

[Wayne] And I thought, "Fantastic. I can now access that money.

When can I get it?"

Then he said, "Because of the money

initially coming in from a business account,

some backend systems need to be aligned.

Otherwise, it would be blocked."

There would be a nine-month delay.

January 20, 2020 was the date he gave me

that I could access the portal to get the funds.

I was getting emails and messages and in discussions

to say he was really pushing hard to have the six systems aligned.

They were aligned, and we're ready to go.

I log in to the portal,

it is an authentic Bank of America portal.

I get the text. "Here's your password."

I type that in, press enter

thinking I'm gonna see my bank account with £1.75 million...

[beeps]

It comes back "wrong password."

I go, "Ugh."

Then I rang him. I said, "It's not working."

He said, "I'll look at it. Hang on, there might be a mistake."

And I've got my staff ringing me up saying,

"How did you go? Did you get the money?"

I said, "Well, no, there's a bit of a problem."

And that was hell.

We were getting really frustrated about all these delays.

They just kept on happening.

And then, COVID hit.

We had people that we had to pay, it was very hard for us.

We actually ended up getting Bounce Back Loans.

[Paolo] And there was always an excuse.

There was always a problem.

And Ghedia became increasingly aggressive with Wayne.

At one point, he telephoned him and shouted at him

because Wayne was asking too many questions.

And he said that this was causing Mr. Ghedia problems at work.

And as a result, the funds could not be released.

[Wayne] We're ready to go,

Yes, here's your link to the portal.

Fantastic, everyone's jumping out their skin.

We're finally gonna get there.

Again, the same message, doesn't work.

So, I sent him a mail, said it's not working.

He said, "Oh, I'll call you."

So for the second time I've tried to access the funds,

and I can't.

Imagine what it's like.

I just... I cried.

He was still appearing to be very, very supportive,

"Don't worry, we'll work through this.

It's an industry thing."

And I trusted him still.

I started to have my doubts, and I was like,

"Hold on a moment. Why are we still giving you money

when you've promised us this investment three times now?"

And I started to get really worried about it and scared

because he had a lot of our money.

And I said to Wayne, "Look, let's just cut our losses.

And let's just get out, um, get our money back."

[Wayne] Sixth of May comes. "The money is going to be in your account."

I wake up and look at my phone straight away,

and there's a message there...

which was from a Russian fraudster

who said, "We'd be watching your account.

Thank you very much, uh, we have stolen the money that you sent.

And very happy to do business with you."

I've absolutely had it up to the eyeballs

of all these things that are going on,

things I don't know anything about.

Russian hackers, money not being delivered.

How can this turn out like this?

I was sick, I couldn't think.

-[Wayne] Rajesh. -Hey, how you doing? Good morning.

Not bad, how are you?

-Yeah. -[Nicky] Morning!

-Morning, you all right? -[Nicky] Yeah.

[Paolo] It was a very hammily-worded email.

It was ridiculous, really.

It was written in such a caricature of a style.

Wayne concluded that something very odd was going on,

this was not all about the board.

And at it's that point that he really began to suspect

that Mr. Ghedia was having him on.

[Wayne] I spoke to my business partner.

He started to look at things,

and he said, "This is not adding up.

This is not making sense. This doesn't seem right."

He said, "We need to report this to Action Fraud."

I thought, "Oh. [sighs] Okay."

Uh, and that's what I did.

[Nicky] Wayne started to get a little bit angry,

saying to Ghedia, "That's it.

I'm going into the Bank of America today.

And I want my money back."

Ghedia started shouting at him over the phone,

and he was saying he had people,

he knew where we lived.

When we look at the progression of Ghedia's behavior,

it's becoming more and more chaotic.

He would have people come and get us.

They had guns.

The initial scam was well thought out

and it was preplanned.

We were so frightened.

Because we didn't know whether this guy was on his own

or whether he did have mafia friends or whatever.

It all seems very impulsive and to me, it stinks of desperation.

[Nicky] Our whole life, that morning, had come tumbling down.

And then with the threat...

Oh, man, I was so scared.

[Dr. Das] What was his exit strategy?

It's inevitable that there would have been

some sort of confrontation with Wayne.

They're both members of the same community.

Wayne's not just gonna suddenly disappear.

[Paolo Caldato] On the 10th of May, 2020,

Wayne contacted the complaint's line of Bank of America

and told them that he had serious concerns about Mr. Ghedia,

and he was worried that he had been scammed.

Around two weeks later, a second individual contacted the Bank of America

with very similar concerns.

It was at that point that the Bank of America took action

and reported matters the police and to Action Fraud,

and suspended Mr. Ghedia.

[Wayne] I got a call from Action Fraud to say

they were transferring my case to City of London Police

and not to tell Ghedia.

So straight away, I thought, "Ugh."

I could see what was coming. [sighs] I knew.

I realized, "This is serious. Uh..."

I was crying all the time, my wife was the same.

We just couldn't believe it.

And one of the City of London Police officers

who had been assigned to it, rang me up.

He said, "No, your accounts never existed.

There's no money there. It's all been gone."

It's like you just get hit in the face with a big hammer.

Bang, it's not there.

How can this happen?

[Nicky] Wayne said to me, "We need to go for a walk,"

and I started to get really nervous.

Whenever somebody says we need to do something like that,

it's like a sinking feeling in your stomach.

I remember it clearly, we went for a walk

at about 3 o'clock in the afternoon.

[Nicky] "The police had phoned me this morning.

Ghedia's not who he says he is."

That sinking feeling in my stomach just went ballistic.

We just broke down and it was just...

Ugh! Uh, well, I've never felt anything like that before.

And I hope I never feel anything like that again.

[Nicky] I just couldn't believe it.

I'm getting goosebumps now, he was our friend, you know?

I treated him as a friend.

Sorry.

I'm goose bumping all over.

I was devastated.

But more so for Wayne.

It was his dreams. He had just put his life on hold for this.

I didn't sleep that night.

[Wayne] It was massively hard for me,

knowing what he'd done.

Uh, I was told by the police just to act normal

so as not to alert him.

We were driving down the road,

and lo and behold, Ghedia and his wife are walking along.

I pulled over, knowing full well that he's a fraudster,

he's been fired and I've been scammed.

I said to him, "Really excited about getting the money."

He said, "Yeah, it's great. The bank are really excited about this."

So, he even though everything had happened,

he was still pretending that it was alive, everything was gonna work.

[Paolo] Mr. Ghedia was arrested in August, 2020,

and he gave a "no comment" interview,

following which he was charged and released on bail.

When Ghedia was first arrested,

there must have been a huge level of embarrassment and shame.

This is public knowledge now, it's gonna be in the media.

His family, his friends, the whole community

is gonna find out exactly what he's been up to.

He would have felt a sense of regret,

but that's not necessarily remorse.

It might have been fear, fear for the future.

When he was arrested, I was actually relieved.

He was no longer a threat to us.

We still didn't know whether he had friends.

So we were still very cautious.

But at least now I thought...

"Now it's going to come out.

Now...

he can't hide anymore. He...

He can't pretend to be who he isn't."

Wayne, uh, told me that, uh, he's been arrested.

I was very shocked,

because, you know, you come across like a good citizen,

helpful neighbor,

and then, all of a sudden, you went quiet.

And the next thing we hear that you are dealing with all this fraud.

[Paolo] During his employment with Bank of America,

Mr. Ghedia signed up to several pension funds

that were supposed to pay out

in the event that he were given a medical diagnosis

and a prognosis of fewer than 12 months to live.

In March, 2017, Mr. Ghedia also took out critical illness cover

with the policy value of £1.2 million.

[Dr. Das] On the 15th of October, 2020,

Ghedia phones the pension team at Legal & General.

[phone ringing]

[woman speaking]

[Rajesh speaking]

[Paolo] The insurers received letters from Mr. Ghedia's doctor

informing them that he had terminal cancer

and that he only had months in which to live.

The reports that Mr. Ghedia faked,

they used what sounded to me like genuine medical terminology.

They were very, very sophisticated.

He was able to conjure up these documents that were convincing enough

to trick very sophisticated insurance institutions.

Ghedia's behavior is astute and is crafty.

It seems like he's intentionally picked a terminal illness

'cause he knows that the insurance companies

are not going to investigate it too hard.

They usually do this retrospectively.

[Paolo] During the course of their investigations,

they identified one particular payment

that stood out to them because of its size.

It was £1.2 million payment

that he received in May, 2021.

I think it's really diabolical that Ghedia is exploiting a system

that's there to help terminally ill patients.

In his head, he's probably able to justify that to a degree

because it's a faceless, large corporation.

But when he took money from Wayne,

it would have been different.

It feels like he doesn't care,

he's completely indifferent into the impact

it would have had on Wayne,

which was devastating, it's so far-reaching.

This just shows not only how desperate he is,

but he's just got an absolute lack of moral boundaries.

When police officers raided Mr. Ghedia's home with a warrant,

they uncovered evidence of further frauds.

Mr. Ghedia submitted two further applications

for life insurance policies in June and July, 2021.

And in those applications, he gave statements to the effect

that he was not receiving treatment for any medical conditions

of any nature whatsoever.

His whole world must have been collapsing around him.

He must have known that law enforcements were creeping up on him.

So I imagine there would have been this huge sense of panic

and maybe he wasn't thinking logically or rationally.

He was making impulsive decisions.

The level of scam that he perpetrated

was just unbelievable.

Not even a miracle could save Ghedia now,

and he knows it.

[Wayne] I attended the court sentencing.

I was determined to go because I wanted to see him.

And he came through the door,

walked along, he didn't look at me.

He just seemed calm.

[Dr. Das] Sometimes, victims attend court

because they want to see the perpetrator get justice.

They want this justice to be something tangible,

that they're witnessing in front of them

rather than an abstract concept

that's happening at a distance

that they might read about later in the papers.

I accompanied Wayne to the sentencing hearing.

And it was during the course of that that I realized

the full extent of Mr. Ghedia's scam.

It wasn't just Wayne, there were other victims.

And he had told them that his daughter had just died.

It's any parent's worst nightmare.

And to use it in that context just flabbergasted me.

[Dr. Das] When we look at Ghedia's fraudulent activity,

it seems that he had lots of different schemes going on,

almost like a Ponzi scheme.

So he may have been hoping to gain back some of the money

so that he could pay off Wayne to get him off his back.

The kind of mindset of a person that would commit this level of fraud

is somebody that has absolutely no moral boundaries.

It almost seems like there's no depths

that Ghedia won't sink down to.

As well as Wayne, we know that Ghedia had other victims.

He had this regular taxi driver,

and that person's wife, Saeeda Ahmed, had savings.

And Ghedia managed to rip off this couple for £100,000

to invest in him.

They had to sell their house for that.

And then when Mrs. Ahmed went to confront Ghedia,

he fabricates the story about being in a car crash,

and says that his daughter is in the hospital

so that she backs off.

We also know that Ghedia conned his own cousin out £64,000,

and another father at the school for £117,000.

He was convicted and sentenced to six years and nine months.

For the amount of sorrow

and for what he's done to people,

the lives that he's just destroyed...

I just think six years isn't enough.

To think that he can get out and do this again,

put other people through what we've been through,

it scares me.

I felt extremely violated by what he did,

and, you know, in my... Under my roof,

to my friends.

He has no qualms, he's unscrupulous.

He goes after people, takes everything from them.

So he might do it again.

He gets high on it, I think.

Serves him right, where he's now.

It's clear he's shown no signs of a moral compass.

He's now going behind bars.

Hopefully, he'll find one.

What makes this fraud more or less in my experience

is that the central element of it was true,

Mr. Ghedia was who he said he was.

He was an employee of Bank of America.

The best lies have elements of truth to them.

[Dr. Das] Ghedia was actually vice president,

but he was backroom staff.

But he had these business cards printed

which he gave to Wayne, suggesting that he wasn't actually backroom staff,

but that he was the head of the trading desk.

And I think there's a couple of reasons for this.

Firstly, it would increase his credibility,

making it more likely that Wayne would invest in him.

But also, possibly, there was a degree of jealousy with his peers,

so he was working amongst investment bankers

who would have been earning huge salaries.

So, in total...

the scam with Ghedia, he got me for £182,000.

But then the other expenses I've incurred would be about up to £400,000.

I still felt committed to pay my staff,

uh, they had worked in good faith.

I've got principles that I'm gonna stick to, no matter what.

And then, just personally,

the time I've invested, all of that, it's lost.

I was very angry that this had happened

and that we'd been put in this position.

Everything became really tight then money-wise.

We can't go and see our family in Australia.

We had a new grandchild.

Malia is now 20 months old.

So we weren't able to go and see her when she was born.

That was horrible for us.

A few years ago...

we were both very hopeful

about how the trajectory of our life is gonna be.

Now, I just sort of... I live day-to-day.

I check the bank accounts daily. I worry.

I wake up in the morning worrying about the future.

If we don't get the money back,

then there's a real chance that, um,

we're gonna lose our house.

Wayne had all these hopes and dreams,

he was going to have early retirement.

He had plans with his money,

including visiting his children in Australia.

And it all came crashing down and the opposite happened.

He's now under financial strain.

And this financial pressure not only put a strain

on his relationship with his wife,

but for Wayne, it made him more isolated, more withdrawn.

So it feels like it effected his mental health

and possibly his physical health as well.

[Wayne] It was just an extremely dark place.

Financially, we've taken a huge hit.

Uh, just to get through each day was hard.

Sometimes, I didn't wanna get up out of bed

'cause I could not face the day.

And everything just seemed to be crowding in

and I could not see any way out of it,

for me, for my wife, for my family.

Uh, it was just horrible and I did not know what to do.

Since this happened, Wayne's just gone downhill, spiraled.

He goes into himself. He's detached.

Forgiveness will always resonate with me,

I think time is a big healer,

but still, to know that he deliberately, uh, planned this

and incurred this hurt and problems for my family,

it'll take me a long time to forgive him.

[Dr. Das] Could a swindler like Ghedia actually be rehabilitated

or will he continue to act fraudulently once he's released?

Some people actually do reflect upon their lives in prison,

and they develop a sense of empathy

and genuine remorse,

but on the other hand, some people continue their actions.

So sometimes it's the external pressures,

whether they're being observed by the police,

that will actually effect their actions

more than any internal epiphany.

[Nicky] He's getting back to his old self.

We're both positive people, at the end of the day.

We've got each other.

We've got our family.

That's what's kept us together.

I think a lot of people might not have survived what we've gone through.

Going through this kind of experience can lead to people questioning

their own judgement in the future,

and it can also lead to them becoming more anxious and nervous.

It might even mean that they need more reassurance

for the day-to-day life in the future.

When we had one of our early interviews with the police,

they said these things wreck people's lives.

They can wreck relationships and marriages.

Uh, Nicky and I, we've been married for over 20 years,

extremely, extremely close, love each other so much,

but it has really rocked that.

I'll turn 60 in 2021.

I thought I'd be...

I'd be good, we've got grandkids in Australia and... [inhales]

And Nicky has been a tremendous support.

We stuck together.

We've weathered the storm, we've still got a way to go.

But we are good people.

We're doing the right thing and we know we are.

So the love, the commitment, the strength has held us together.