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♪♪

I hope we didn't keep you waiting very long.

Not at all. I would have waited all day for this.

You and your buddies decided

y'all were gonna kill him and take his dope.

You started a fire with a blowtorch.

When did you start viewing child pornography?

Do you actually accept responsibility,

or is this something that you're just coasting through?

It hurts me still. I'm hurtin'.

I truly am sorry for what I did.

I definitely wanna say

I'm sorry to the family of the victim.

I decided I needed to help myself,

fix myself 'cause I was broke.

No early release in your sentence.

You will serve out your sentence.

No early discharge.

commissioner: Parole has been denied. Good luck to you.

♪♪

newscaster: The penologists say let a criminal know

just how much time he's going to do

for a certain kind of crime, and no parole.

For four decades now the parole board

has stockpiled human lives.

More than 50% of people

appearing before the board are denied parole

and disproportionately impact people of color

and more specifically Black men.

Abolish parole for violent felons.

-Violent felons belong in jail! -(applause)

newscaster: There is outrage over a parole board's decision

to free convicted cop killer...

This parole board needs to be fired.

speaker: We cannot continue to have a system

in which the worst thing that you've ever done

is the only thing that you are judged for.

Judge Richard Healy: Once you've served the minimum sentence,

then you're eligible for parole.

Rochelle Swartz: In the 20, maybe 45 minutes

the parole board gives you,

can you showcase you are remorseful,

that you are deserving of a second chance?

speaker: That parole board interview is about freedom.

Is there any hope for your future?

Whether you're gonna die in prison?

Everything is on that, that one time, that one shot.

Carol Shapiro: The severity of the offense

is the cornerstone

of most parole commissioners' decision-making.

Sabrina Scott: The commissioners always say parole denied

due to the nature of the crime,

but the nature of the crime is never gonna change.

And you're supposed to look at the person

for who they are today.

♪♪

Todd Scott: I've been in prison over 30 years.

I am a lifer, you know, until they let me go.

And it's-- Until then, that's what the, um--

I'm designated to be.

I've been in prison since I was 19.

Every day I pray and ask for forgiveness.

How can you be more remorseful?

How do you show that you changed?

During the parole interview

your anxiety's building.

The commissioners come on the screen

and they'll say, "This is your parole interview,

"we're gonna talk about the crimes

you're convicted for."

So you gotta prepare yourself for that hard conversation.

Over the years your conscience

opens up more and more and it's like, you know,

now you realize the gravity of what you participated in.

I just gotta get in there

and convince the commissioners

that I'm worth taking a shot on.

I turned 54 last week.

I'm not the same 19-year-old.

(camera shutter clicks)

(siren wailing)

(camera shutters clicking)

(wailing continues)

(indistinct radio chatter)

newscaster: Veteran police officers are shedding tears tonight

for a rookie cop, executed in cold blood.

Officer Edward Byrne was just 22 years old,

the son of a retired police lieutenant.

Pat Hendry: That night Eddie Byrne was assigned

to protect a witness who was testifying

in a high-profile drug case.

He was parked outside that location by himself.

reporter: The parked car pulled up with its lights off,

two men got out and one fired

into the patrol car killing Byrne.

Hendry: It was shocking, they went there that night

to assassinate a New York City police officer.

newscaster 1: The fourth suspect is behind bars.

newscaster 2: Todd Scott, the man who was distracting Eddie Byrne

at the time of the shooting...

newscaster 3: Edward Byrne was murdered

on the instructions of a known drug lord.

newscaster 4: Reputed crack kingpin Howard "Pappy" Mason

has been indicted for allegedly

ordering the Byrne hit from behind bars.

Hendry: This was a hit from the jail cell

of Pappy Mason to send a message

so that they can control the streets of Jamaica, Queens.

judge: The sentence of this court

shall be 25 years to life

on the murder of second degree

with the recommendation to the parole board

that you'll never be paroled.

(cheering)

Hendry: All the murderers who killed Eddie Byrnes

got the max, 25 to life.

Todd Scott never deserves to step foot

on the streets ever again.

He was there that night to kill a New York City police officer.

He might as well pulled the trigger.

♪♪

Rhiya Trivedi: My whole job is doing

pro bono criminal defense work.

Almost all of my clients have been incarcerated

for what we call life on the back.

Twenty-five to life, fifteen to life.

And Todd is serving 25 to life

and 15 to life for another murder

and they ran concurrently.

Todd's last parole interview decision reads,

"You caused the death of a female victim by shooting her

"because she stole money

"from your drug distribution organization,

"and in February of 1988

"you and your co-defendants planned and executed the murder

"of a New York City police officer.

"While the record appears clear that you were not the one

"who fired the shots at Officer Byrne,

"you admitted that you were the one that distracted him

so that the other could kill him."

Todd struggles to discuss

the nature and circumstances of his crime

and so that becomes my focus.

The work is to demonstrate insight,

rehabilitation, and remorse.

That's the stated logic of parole.

(distant chatter, doors locking)

The parole commissioners are always looking

for some acknowledgment that,

that what we're talking about is irreversible.

And you're in the, the most extreme situation

of having to communicate that to them.

Like, remorse, like remorse, like, I, I...

I walk with my remorse every day.

-I carry it, I sleep with it, I wake up with it. -Mm-hmm.

And every hearing you get new information

about how to approach the next one.

-Mm-hmm. -Trivedi: And we can look at the transcript

and think about how they recognize remorse.

Mm-hmm. Redemption is an everyday growing thing,

it's an everyday process of bettering yourself.

You always, you always can work on bettering yourself.

Trivedi: Mm-hmm.

But how, but how do they measure it?

There was a question asked by a commissioner,

"Are the scales balanced?"

What did you say?

-And I said, "Only God knows." -Hmm.

You know, God knows best. I don't--

Some things that I don't know what's happening

and I had to figure it out on the fly.

It's a question that's asking an unknowable thing.

-Right. -Right? And I hear you saying that.

-Mm-hmm. -Like, only God knows in the sense

-that I sure as hell don't know, right? -Right, right.

Trivedi: I hear you talkin' about all the ways

you try to help people

and the hope you have that that's true

and, and who doesn't have that hope for themselves

that the good they've done outweighs the bad they've done?

Do you know what I hear when I hear that question?

Todd: What?

Trivedi: I hear them wanting to hear from you

that there's nothing that you could ever do

that would repair the damage you've done.

Yeah, I-I never looked at it that way

but I understand what you're saying.

Because somewhere right now

somebody is grieving a person who is not with them

because of a decision you made.

I understand exactly what you're saying, you know?

I own it. I can own my part of it.

Trivedi: Mm-hmm.

And that's it.

(solemn music playing)

-(birds chirping) -(water trickling)

Patrick Gallivan: Sometimes when somebody does

something so egregious,

they forfeited their right to be amongst all of us.

No matter what good they might do in prison.

So, the parole board's job is to decide

whether or not an individual

who's serving an indeterminate sentence

should be released on parole.

So, all the individuals that serve

indeterminate sentences,

where the judge sets a minimum amount of years to serve,

and a maximum time, three to nine,

twenty-five to life, five to fifteen,

those are indeterminate.

Um, all those individuals ultimately go

before two or three commissioners

up to 24 months, every two years.

And if they're denied, another two years after that, and so on.

I, I think the best intended commissioners

that are trying to do their job properly

really try to get inside, um, the inmate

and see what insight they've had into their conduct,

what insight they've had into their life.

And that could include remorse

or it, it could include an understanding of why they,

why they committed a crime.

(leaves rustling)

Chad Campbell: I've been in prison for 31 years.

Do I forgive my 14-year-old self?

Um...

No.

It's, it's not that I don't want to...

but in doing so, in my mind,

and I still have this problem today,

I don't forgive myself today at 46.

If I forgive him it makes it alright.

And what I did is not alright.

(siren wailing)

newscaster 1: In the summer of 1990,

the lives of two Palmyra families

were forever changed.

newscaster 2: Chad Campbell was 14

when he was convicted of killing a classmate

and the toddler she was babysitting.

newscaster 3: A New York State parole board

has denied parole to Chad Campbell.

It will be two more years before Campbell

will have a chance to be released from prison.

Judge Healy: Palmyra is a small rural community

outside of Rochester.

There's hardly any violent crime in Palmyra.

I was an assistant DA in Wayne County in 1990.

Cindy Lewis was babysitting for Curtis Rizzo.

And they had walked behind the school

and that's the last time they were seen.

They just sort of disappeared,

the police were searching,

the entire community was searching.

Two days later, their bodies were found.

The victims were stabbed multiple times.

The child was, uh, 17 months old at the time,

Cindy Lewis was 15.

It was just a, a, a, just a horrible crime, uh, brutal.

I was close to the victims' families.

They were totally devastated.

They wanted to see justice done.

Because Chad Campbell was only 14

at the time of the crime,

he was considered a juvenile offender.

The judge gave him 18 years to life.

That was the maximum sentence he could have received.

newscaster: Since then, Rizzo's family

has fought to keep him behind bars.

He's been up for parole every two years since 2008

and has been denied.

♪♪

voice navigation: Take the ramp to New York 495 West.

Swartz: Chad is due for his ninth parole interview

in just a couple of weeks.

He's been in prison 30 years now

and he's been denied parole eight times.

I always make a point of trying to visit Chad

in advance of the parole interviews

because I know that they can be quite stressful.

I'm going up there to have a full and complete conversation

about not just what happened, but what we're gonna do next.

I do several practice runs with Chad to encourage him

to not just say, "Yes, sir, no, sir,"

but really to speak his truth.

(birds chirping)

-Hey. (chuckles) -Chad: How are you?

Swartz: How's it going?

-Chad: Good, how about yourself? -Swartz: Good.

-Okay, so come sit down. -Chad: Okay.

-So, it's the ninth hearing. -Chad: Yeah.

I think I'm ready. I really do.

I mean, they're gonna ask me the exact same questions, you know?

And I, and I tell them, it's, it's hard for me to s--

you know, explain what happened.

I think probably you're gonna deal

with the typical questions that you always get about,

you know, "Tell me about this crime."

"Why did you do it? Why did you take Curtis' life?"

Right? Like, he wasn't a danger to you.

The commissioners are asking me

to explain the thought process

and the actions of a 14-year-old, at the time.

Um, as I'll be 46 in September,

so, right now, a 45-year-old man who is now educated,

you know, compared to when I came to prison...

this is not how I feel now.

But this is what I felt at the time.

It was rage.

It was rage, um...

I don't know if anyone's ever experienced it

and I hope people don't, you don't stop.

It was, it was definitely like a break

but it didn't start with Cynthia or Curtis.

My anger started when I was younger,

my anger was starting from not...

being able to identify my emotions,

for always thinking that you were stupid, broken,

something was wrong with you,

that being reinforced by your mother calling you

a stupid son of a bitch all the time.

We knew who my mother was talking to

by what curses she used.

I was "stupid son of a bitch," my sister was "goddamn asshole."

So my feelings of anger,

it was coming from an abusive household,

a neglectful household.

My father's only interaction with his children

was when it was time to discipline them

and that usually came in the form of a fist.

The amount of abuse that occurred in my household

growing up was overwhelming.

My coping mechanisms, sports, physical sports,

I didn't wanna, you know, play tennis.

I wanted to play football and, you know,

try and rip your head off.

I don't wanna blame any of that

but I'm able to track my anger,

I'm able to track why...

I was violent.

My first parole board was May 2008.

You know, you're about to go and answer

for the worst mistake

you've ever made in your entire life.

commissioner 1: What happened to that 14-year-old

that caused you to commit such a horrendous crime?

Chad: For 30 years I thought about that extensively.

It's like I couldn't control myself,

and I think it's horrible.

I can't begin to say how sorry I am for what I've done.

commissioner 2: To commit such a vicious act

with such rage and violence,

it's incomprehensible,

what you did was just really atrocious.

Chad: I agree.

commissioner 1: Do you think that after serving 30 years

you're entitled to be released at this time?

You're asking for parole.

You understand what you did was beyond the pale, right?

Chad: Yes, ma'am.

The commissioners, they ask me

was justice served in this case?

And, um, my answer is always no.

I'm alive, Cynthia and Curtis are not.

You know?

So, you know, there--

there can never be justice.

But, uh, I also say that there's a, um,

there's a, there's a flip side to that coin,

and it's redemption.

Um, I know I can never redeem myself

for what I've done.

Never.

Not in my eyes, I can't.

But it doesn't stop me from chasing it.

And I've chased it for 31 years.

I'ma keep doing it.

♪♪

(wind blowing)

Gallivan: The parole commissioner's job

is to make that admittedly subjective decision

whether or not to release the individual.

To become a commissioner,

the governor nominates an individual,

those nominees come before the Senate.

Good afternoon, everybody.

I'm Senator Patrick Gallivan.

Uh, Mr. James Ferguson,

who was a former member of the board of parole.

Uh, my name is James Ferguson.

I was appointed by Governor Pataki.

Violent felons belong in jail

and with your support that is where they are going to be.

(applause)

James Ferguson: Obviously, whatever governor is in charge

is going to try to appoint people consistent

with their philosophy,

and commissioners are generally appointed

for six-year terms.

And you see the polar opposites in the parole system.

You have one side that wants everybody

to stay in prison forever.

You have the other side who wants to let everybody out.

My own understanding of rehabilitation and redemption

starts with Catholic school,

where you grow up with a very strong sense

of what is right and what is wrong.

In my personal opinion, as commissioners,

we don't just have a person

who wants their freedom that we're answerable to.

We have society not only to protect,

but we have society who's confidence

in the criminal justice system is essential to make it work.

Gallivan: The final nominee before us,

that came from the governor...

Shapiro: I served on the parole board

for just two years.

I know victimization firsthand.

My mother was crushed by a drunk driver

when I was a child.

But I was lucky enough to grow up with,

um, feelings of redemption and forgiveness,

something that we don't really talk about here.

Part of what the parole process is,

is determining if somebody's ready to go home.

Now, for each of us on the board,

that meant something different.

Um, I look at what have you done within your time

and have you been transformed,

and you're no longer, you know,

a threat to anybody, yourself, or your family.

On a 25 to life sentence,

does that mean they should get out at that point

just because they're "ready"?

You're not just there to become a better person.

You're there to pay a debt.

♪♪

Sabrina: I hate writing this number.

(cookie bags crinkling)

So, I usually send him like 30 packs of tuna.

He's on the honor block, so, he's able to cook.

I guess that's, that's the privilege

of being in the honor block.

I'm sending him some meat so it's gonna be a little wet.

-(siren wailing) -(indistinct radio chatter)

Todd and I grew up in South Jamaica, Queens.

It was a dangerous world.

Drug dealers, dirty cops.

Oh, my goodness, this place.

I remember when Todd used to come to my house

to get my brother to go play basketball.

Nobody really looked deep into Todd's life

because he always was a smiling kid, funny,

but it was a lot of trauma

and he got mixed up

with the worst people ever, drug dealers.

We were just shocked like, "Why? Why?"

And bottom line, it was money.

When Todd went to prison, my heart was broken.

We wrote for about a year and a half

and then I went to see him.

That was it. I told him we were gonna get married.

I felt like I can help him get home.

I have created petitions in South Jamaica

and we had over 200 people come and sign the petitions.

People in our community

said it was time for Todd to come home.

-(siren wailing) -(indistinct radio chatter)

The truth is an officer lost his life

and it shouldn't have happened.

They know Todd was not the trigger man

but because he was there, they felt like,

"You could have called the cops, you could have did something."

But when you're in that life, in the streets,

there's other rules.

"If you don't do what I tell you to do."

Like, "This is a order."

"We know where you live."

♪♪

Trivedi: Okay, you want the transcript?

Ron Kuby: I want the transcript.

Oh, here we go. You ready?

-Yeah. Yeah. -Trivedi: Hoo.

I discuss everything with Kuby in terms of my approach.

We process these things together

because it's emotional for us.

From the board's perspective,

they see someone who was willing to participate

in the taking of a life...

on orders from a person

who was not Todd's biological family

nor who had the kind of power over Todd

that they recognize as duress or coercion.

But I think it has to do with the extent

to which he was abandoned, abused,

neglected from a profoundly early age

and how he found family in this organization.

And so when he received orders to do a thing,

it was as though he was being told to do them by a parent

in a context where it made sense.

Right. They adopted him, they took care of him,

they gave him a security, both financial and physical,

that he didn't have at home and,

you know, that's gotta be extraordinarily attractive

to a 15-year-old who basically is on his own.

Trivedi: I don't know that there was any instance

where the parole commissioners acknowledged

that the story of his family

and his abandonment and his homelessness

is the story of how he came to take orders from

these older, more established street leaders.

I need to talk to him about it

because he refuses to see himself as a victim.

There's a way for somebody to sort of tell that story

about how this happens.

-(tense music playing) -(subway tracks screeching)

And to understand the significance of Todd's case

we need to go back a little bit

and get a sense of what New York was like

-in the '70s and '80s. -(sirens wailing)

New York City was bankrupt.

And with it comes the crack epidemic.

newscaster: Manhattan narcotic cops

arrested more than 30 people in one building

for allegedly dealing a new form of cocaine known as crack.

Kuby: The police were unleashed.

So there was this huge mistrust

in communities of color of the police.

And then the entire narrative changed.

newscaster 1: Rookie officer Eddie Byrne

was murdered by a drug dealer.

newscaster 2: Howard "Pappy" Mason has denied any involvement

with drugs and Byrne's murder.

The four men convicted are allegedly in the Bebo gang.

Their cult-like reverence for their leader

said to be so strong,

they carried out Mason's contract one day

after he was jailed on a weapons charge.

Kuby: Eddie Byrne was a kid, I mean, he was 21 years old.

And when he was murdered

there was a lot of community outrage.

This was horrific.

reporter: The shooting of Officer Edward Byrne

is the case of good guy versus bad guy.

Kuby: This was a hero cop

and he died in service of the community.

And now the police finally,

instead of being called pigs and murderers, were embraced

and so the police and the community are now united.

officer: ...police! Search warrant!

Rudy Giuliani: We need a death penalty

for people who murder police officers.

We need life imprisonment for major drug dealers.

Kuby: Eddie Byrne became a rallying cry against crime

and for mass arrests and mass incarceration.

This is the badge of a fallen police officer,

New York cop that many of y'all knew, Eddie Byrne.

Kuby: George Herbert Walker Bush,

when he was running for president

he carried Eddie Byrne's badge with him.

Politicians all over the country use this

and it paved the way for judges to hand out

every maximum sentence available.

The sentence of the court is

twenty-five years to life with the recommendation

that you'll never be paroled.

(cheering)

The most depressing thing for me personally

is that he's done 33 years,

and, I mean, you actually become eligible for parole

for a cop killing in the real world after 45.

-Who has gotten out before 45? -Trivedi: No, that's, that's it.

I don't seriously consider him to be parole eligible

for at least another seven years,

and that might be, um,

wishful thinking in and of itself

which disturbs me, honestly.

Like, is bursting that bubble my job?

Nope.

Nope! That's not our job.

(ambient city street noise)

(office phones ringing)

Swartz: Chad Campbell has been in prison for 32 years.

I originally got involved in his case

after he was denied parole for the fifth time,

which was about two years ago.

I had no exposure to parole, to incarceration issues,

to really any of that.

I'm a commercial litigator,

but the pro bono partner here at Orrick said to me,

"Hey, we have an oral argument in seven days

"and nobody can handle it

and it would be a great experience."

And I said, "Okay, sure. I guess I'll try that."

If you're denied parole you can file an appeal

where you go to court

and you argue that the board did something wrong.

Even if you convince the court

that the parole board did something wrong,

New York courts are not willing to release a parole applicant.

They'll say, "Okay, you can have a new parole interview."

Your Honors, my client would be the first to tell you

that the crime he committed was truly horrible.

However, he committed that crime when he was 14 years old.

To what extent are these crimes

that these child offenders commit

part of transient immaturity?

This is now the fifth time that he's been denied parole.

All you're really left with is saying,

"Basically, this crime was so serious

that no remorse could ever be enough."

Frankly, I believe that the parole board

is being allowed to sentence Mr. Campbell,

who was a child offender, to life in prison

in two-year intervals.

Thank you.

Swartz: Thank you, Your Honors.

Respondent, please.

You have these very troubling facts

of the underlying crime and the board wants to ensure,

having the responsibility for discretionary release,

that Mr. Campbell truly understands

what happened that day.

The board is asking open-ended questions,

"Why did you do something like this?

"How did Cynthia Lewis end up dead?

What were you thinking at the time that you--"

How is that ever gonna change by the way?

Does that mean he's gonna stay in jail

as a 14-year-old offender until he's 80?

Till he's 90? Till a thousand?

When does that ever change if that's a factor?

Swartz: Appeals are really hard to win,

and not surprisingly we lost that one,

which for me highlights

this retributivist idea of justice that we have,

that the only correct outcome for a violent crime

is to put someone away for life.

Before I met Chad I wouldn't necessarily

have disagreed with that approach.

If someone commits a violent crime,

they should just spend the rest of their life in prison.

But once I got to know Chad,

got to know the facts of the case,

he's never committed another act of violence in 30 years.

He's grown and changed in an environment

that does not foster growth and change.

Chad: When I came in at 14, I pushed everything aside.

I compartmentalized it and locked it away.

Then, over the years, through some of the programs,

I was able to deal with things gradually.

♪♪

The things I'm involved in in here,

you know, grievance, Bard, all the things I do.

It's my way of trying, and that's all I can do,

and I'm not gonna stop doing that.

But I took two innocent people's lives,

so for me to say, you know, "Look at me,

I'm doing great things now,"

um, I think that dishonors, um, the m--

you know, their memory basically,

and I have a hard time doing that.

It really comes down to the commissioners

and how they, you know, ask the questions.

In my last hearing I was asked a simple question.

"Do you think you deserve to go home?"

And my initial response was, "Do I deserve it?"

When you start weighing everything

there's times I'm like, "No, I don't."

Why should I--

If I forgive myself,

it's almost like I'm at peace with it.

I don't wanna be at peace with it.

You've had 30 years in order to think

about what you've done.

So I know my answers, but it doesn't help

when you get in front of them.

You're nervous. You're scared.

And you know every word that comes out of your mouth

could determine whether or not you're released.

Whether or not you gain your freedom back again.

(tense music playing)

commissioner: Why did you call Cindy?

Chad: She lived right down the street

and I suspected she liked me.

commissioner: I know there was a stabbing,

which I believe I read was 40-plus stab wounds.

Chad: I just wanted to hurt somebody.

It was an impulsive decision

that I knew would be hurtful,

and I know it's wrong,

and I can't say how sorry I am for everything.

commissioner: And when did you stab Curtis?

Chad: After I stabbed Cindy,

he was crying, and I was still angry.

I was scared.

The best I could explain it,

there was so much noise,

I didn't want any noise in my head,

and I reached over and I stabbed him.

I couldn't process fear like normal people could.

Frustration or guilt or remorse.

Everything came across as anger.

commissioner: Mr. Campbell, you've given us a lot to think about,

a lot to deliberate about.

♪♪

(music fades out)

Gallivan: Who makes sure that as a commissioner,

that you are doing your job properly

and complying with the law?

No one.

Fred Akshar: Would you say that

members of the board are overworked?

Ferguson: Without question.

So a typical day on the parole board is,

the commissioners will be given 10, 20, 30 cases each

to immediately start reviewing.

These files are eight inches thick.

You are supposed to be reviewing a folder

while you are simultaneously listening

to an inmate's application for release.

Shapiro: You're really not trained for this job.

I knew very little going in.

And oftentimes we're seeing the case

for the first time that morning,

and you may have 15, 20 minutes to review the file.

We are told to follow the statutes,

and make our decisions

based on a certain set of criteria.

There's risk instruments,

there's institutional accomplishments,

the severity of the offense

tends to be the cornerstone

of most parole commissioners' decision-making.

If you look at the majority of the people

who committed heinous crimes, the reason they're denied parole

is because of the severity of the crime.

Todd: What I did, it still hangs heavy over me.

So when I go in front of the parole board,

it's just hard to explain.

It's hard, you know, um, I got to prepare myself

every two years to explain it to strangers.

You're dredging up stuff that, it's not easy reliving it.

It's not easy talking about it.

(solemn music playing)

My mother had me when she was 16.

So my mother was in the streets.

I took this picture of my mother.

This is one of the times when she was real sober,

um, you know, when my sister, little sister was born.

She was, she was carrying me in this picture, so...

When I was born, I was born addicted to heroin.

So my grandmother raised me.

My grandmother was struggling, living in the projects.

My mother had two more children,

I had to really care for my siblings

'cause both of my parents was drugs addicts.

(children chattering)

I had an uncle and he really made life hard at home.

The physical abuse, and verbal.

I could have left, I could have ran away

but I had to stay and protect my siblings from my uncle,

face the abuse so they wouldn't have to go through nothing.

The guys you hang with, they become your family.

I got hand-me-downs from hustlers

and that's what draws you in.

But that's the thing with gangs.

These are the people that making sure you eat.

Money in your pocket. A place to live.

I never had a birthday party

until I started hanging out with these guys.

They take care of you. You become a band of brothers.

My first appearance before the parole board,

I was not prepared at all.

When I went in, they tore me up.

commissioner: You were influenced by these guys.

You were influenced by the money, the prestige.

Am I correct?

Todd: You are correct.

commissioner: You were an enforcer,

with the potential to put lead into somebody.

That is a job you took.

You were cold and callous.

You had the opportunity to apologize and you didn't.

You were very evasive.

Todd: My actions led to a lot of hurt.

my impulsiveness and my recklessness.

I wasn't raised that way, you know?

No matter what we went through, we wasn't raised to harm people.

Let alone, you know, take lives, you know?

I acknowledged the crime long ago

but facing it is a different thing.

It's, it's a, it's a shamefulness.

It's, it's for real, it's, it's like...

you know, it's hard to, to talk about it.

I can say, like, "I didn't, I didn't pull the trigger."

It's easy to say that, but I...

you...

I played a role in it.

So you're just as guilty, you know?

I own it and I'm responsible for it.

That's what it is.

♪♪

(line ringing)

automated response: An inmate at New York State Department of Corrections

and Community Supervision.

You may start the conversation now.

Sabrina: Hey, babe.

Todd (on phone): What's up, mama?

I'm, I'm happy to hear your voice.

(Todd speaking)

Sabrina: The parole hearing, it's like waiting to see

if your life is gonna end or if it's gonna begin.

We have literally days before Todd

goes to his fifth parole hearing.

And we out here, believe that.

(Todd speaking)

Absolutely.

Just another thing we just have to jump over.

I'm just full.

It's... been a long time.

It's time for him to come home.

(exhales, sniffles)

(tense music playing)

commissioner: Now, sir, the details here are as follows,

late February 1988, you, in concert,

shot and killed a New York City police officer

who was sitting in his patrol car.

The shooting was a hit ordered by incarcerated drug lords

who were angry at the police's assault on their empire.

Todd: Okay.

commissioner: You were how old?

Todd: I just turned 19 in November.

Honestly, in my mind,

I honestly felt like I didn't shoot him,

but I'm just as culpable, you know?

I know that now but back then my cognizance wasn't correct.

I don't mean to minimize things.

Sometimes it is really emotional for me,

how everything percolates in your mind.

commissioner: But I need you to tell me what it is.

It started out as errands,

but came to full-blown drug deals.

You were an enforcer, that's what it is.

Todd: I'm nervous, I'm usually a better speaker than this.

This is not easy to speak about.

But I am not that same individual,

that 19-year-old.

I'm far from that now.

(music fades out)

(traffic noise, cars honking)

Swartz: Chad went to his ninth parole hearing.

He emailed me yesterday to let me know

that he received the decision.

automated response: You may start the conversation now.

-Swartz: Chad? -Chad (on phone): Hey, how you doin'?

-Hey. -Chad: Alright.

-Swartz: Okay. -Chad: You ready?

Swartz: I'm ready.

Chad: Alright, denied.

Hold for 15 months.

"The panel finds that you failed to express genuine remorse

"or meaningful empathy for your victims and their families

"who will forever be impacted by your actions.

"As such, this panel is not convinced

"your rehabilitation is complete.

Your release at this time would so depreciate..."

-Swartz: "Deprecate." -Chad: Yeah.

"...the serious nature of your crime

as to undermine respect for the law."

Swartz: Are you okay?

Chad: (sighs) Um...

Yeah.

-Chad: Um... -Me too.

It's really, really frustrating.

(Chad speaking)

Nah.

Mm-mm. No.

Swartz: Okay. Whatever you need to do

and if you, like, want me to come up, I'll come up.

You know I will.

We're gonna give 'em hell.

We're gonna keep giving 'em hell.

Hang in.

Okay.

Alright. Bye.

The statute says, "If release would so deprecate

"the seriousness of the offense

as to undermine respect for the law."

That is a fallback, catch-all

to justify denying him release.

A lot of my colleagues really focus on the index crime,

the crime that got them behind bars.

The deprecation clause is the ticket out

for any commissioner who doesn't wanna release somebody

and it's basically saying a static event

is the reason you're never gonna get out of prison.

Senator Tom O'Mara: What type of training, if any,

are the commissioners given in whether or not

"The release would so deprecate the seriousness of the crime

as to undermine respect for the law"?

None, to my knowledge.

How often does that factor come into play?

There's a fair number of cases that come in

where the inmate can be the perfect inmate.

Um, they've done everything they possibly can.

They, they perhaps even demonstrate

a genuinely changed person.

But sometimes there's just enough time has not been done,

because of this component of the serious nature of the offense

and undermining respect from the law.

(solemn music playing)

When you take somebody's life,

you can serve time as a form of punishment for what you did.

But you can never reconstruct that family.

You can never take away the sleepless nights.

And you will have some people, say on the victim's side,

that no matter what price is paid,

it will never be enough.

Shapiro: If it's a heinous offense,

there's an opportunity for victims of those offenses

to come before a parole board commissioner.

It's called a victim impact statement.

And so, the parole board is sandwiched

in between really trying to pay attention

to, "Has this person transformed?

Can they go back home?"

There's this little voice of the mother crying,

the father crying.

newscaster: The families fear for their safety

if Campbell was ever released.

I did go talk to the psychiatrist

that did all the interviews with Chad during the trial

and he said, "I can guarantee you he will do it again."

newscaster: New York State Senator Pamela Helming

has joined in the families' efforts,

creating a petition,

making sure Campbell never sees the light of day.

Senator Pamela Helming: Trying to get as many signatures

as we can on the petition

to send a strong, strong message to the parole board,

keep Chad Campbell behind bars where he belongs.

Swartz: In various denials that we have,

the parole board has said things like,

"Well, there's significant community opposition

that people don't want Chad to get out."

And Senator Helming submitted a letter to the board,

which was on her website.

Our position was that it contained factual inaccuracies,

many things that she couldn't possibly opine on,

like whether or not Chad has ever shown remorse.

We decided to send a cease and desist letter to her office...

because her letter would only increase the political pressure

on the commissioners not to release Chad.

Kim Rogers: So, this is the middle school.

It was along this tree line right here

where they found the victims...

Cindy and Curtis.

We were at cheerleading practice.

I was 10.

At the time, all you heard was

what the police were telling you.

What they put in the paper.

I was raised to believe it's an eye for an eye.

That's how I was raised.

And I, I don't agree with it.

Society just doesn't accept that people change.

And my stepdad separated himself kinda completely.

He didn't really go see him. They didn't really talk.

So, society accepted him more

because he's put it off to the side

as if Chad wasn't his son anymore.

But I think a lot of that comes from

because I know Chad was abused.

Mentally, physically, all of those things, from my stepdad.

I've seen that side of him.

It was an abuse where you cycle around of

"I'm just gonna give you a little bit

"of what it should look like

"and then I'm gonna go back to abusing you

so then you keep coming back for more."

Chad was sentenced to two counts of nine to life

and he's done 31 years now.

If the parole board doesn't think

that the victim's statements

haven't already played into that,

I would say that they're dead wrong.

Because I think that they've listened to one side

for a long time,

and I think it's time to start listening to Chad's side.

♪♪

(rainfall pattering)

Sabrina: Kira, can you hear me?

Kira (on computer): Sabrina?

Sabrina: He can hear you.

(Todd speaking on phone)

Wait, hold on. Todd is about to open up his results.

He got his results back today.

(Todd speaking)

Todd: Uh...

We know that.

(Todd speaking)

Alright, baby. I love you.

automated response: The caller has hung up.

(phone beeps)

♪♪

Sabrina: They always say, "The nature of the crime."

The nature of the crime is never gonna change.

newscaster: They came from towns and cities

across the country for Eddie Byrne's funeral.

An estimated 10,000 police officers

stretching for more than eight blocks.

("Taps" playing at funeral)

Ferguson: I come from a public service family.

My father was a NYPD homicide detective.

In my personal opinion, the reason why cop cases

are decided differently and have different release rates

is that that person is not just committing an offense

against the body of that individual,

a police officer's life is valued more,

because of who and what they represent.

So we ask this parole board,

when these mutts come before them

and act like they're remorseful and they're not,

to just say no.

Shapiro: PBA is the Police Benevolent Association.

Historically, they had generated boxes of affidavits

from other police departments around the country

saying why this person shouldn't be released from prison.

So, they're a political force.

I think high-profile cases, in particular,

are a landmine for some of the commissioners.

You are likely not to release somebody who has a high-profile

that will make the "New York Times" or the "Post."

For a lot of commissioners, this is a job

and if you're worried about keeping your paycheck,

you're-- you probably won't let that person out.

(dramatic music playing)

(music fades out)

Todd: How can you convince somebody that you're...

um...

I don't wanna say deserving,

that's like a selfish word to say,

but I believe that, um,

I'm credible for a chance of being released into society.

And what really saved me and brought me to,

like, a, a, another level of maturity

was when I, you know,

proclaimed Mashallah and became Muslim.

It's about respecting, peacefulness,

and, and being charitable.

I see a lot of youngsters in here

that came in the same path as me.

You gotta speak to these kids in their language.

The number one thing is that you gotta

want to do better and be better.

I had to come to jail to, to learn them tools.

My exit plans is really just not about me.

There's already a job set up

with Teens Against Crime, the nonprofit.

We have a letter from the CEO of Teens Against Crime,

and, you know, they just waiting for me

to get there just to hit the ground running.

And try to help the community, try to help these kids.

Trivedi: They hit him with a 19-month hit.

So there's a long time before his next hearing.

There's a long time to prepare for

how to send him into the board again.

We have to keep going but it's very hard

to come back from actually,

um, emotionally.

(electric gate whirring)

Let me at him.

Hi, hi. I'm so happy to see you.

Todd: Aah! I love you.

Listen, are you not sleeping?

Look at me. Are you not sleeping?

You look so tired.

I never sleep.

I never slept in 30-something years.

Hey, that's how it is.

I'll sleep when I get home, I guess, right?

-Yeah. -Trivedi: Um...

We, we got a lot-- we got a-- we do have some--

you and I have some work to do.

-Trivedi: I know. -Todd: We gotta get ready.

Trivedi: Okay.

Todd, there are pieces of this

for which you are more than prepared.

The packet, the release plan.

Your disciplinary history or lack thereof.

There is really just one aspect of this

where you have room to grow.

These discussions is hard discussions.

You know, it's a lot that I've hidden away.

Blocked out. Don't wanna revisit.

And... But I have to, I'ma have to face it.

Being locked up at a young age, it, you know...

it hinders your pattern of thinking sometimes.

Trivedi: The question is, for me,

how, how do you take orders from people

and fulfill them, right?

When those people are not themselves

holding a gun to your head, right?

I think I know enough about you to say

that the reason you fell in with certain kinds of people

had everything to do with that trauma,

that neglect, that abuse, right?

That responsibility you had as a very young person, right?

Yeah, of course, like, that,

that sense of loyalty, like, like...

like, family, like... you know?

It's, it's, it's-- Sometimes it's a greater bond

-than you have with your own family. -Yeah.

The only way I can perceive that we get you out

is by giving them

a full and honest and vulnerable presentation

of who you are.

I'm asking you to believe that what you say matters

because if you don't think your words matter,

it means that you think they've already made up their mind,

and you think-- if you think they've already made up their mind,

then you don't need to go.

You think they haven't made their mind up?

Trivedi: You wanna in absentia this thing?

You, you think they haven't made their mind up for certain instances?

No, but Todd, listen. I don't know,

and I will never know, right?

And I continue to fight.

We, we, we definitely gonna work on that. I, I want to.

It's just, you know, it's just these things

I got to just block out my mind.

But my point is, I don't,

I don't actually want you to block it out,

I want you to talk to me about it,

-talk to Sabrina about it, talk to an Imam about it. -Right.

I'm just asking you to sort of not, not look away.

Okay.

You, you got that. You got it, you got it.

It's, it's not gonna be easy but I'm, I'm gonna fight it.

-Alright. -Um, call me Wednesday?

Wednesday, alright.

You might have to set a legal one up.

Rhiya brings a certain toughness.

She's gonna be relentless.

All this work we doing, I-- it's really me I gotta work on.

Trivedi: Alright, Todd.

Todd: Just telling my truth.

Telling the truth of what happened

and letting them see who I am.

(tense music playing)

(music fades out)

(traffic noise, sirens blaring)

Swartz: Chad's last denial was several months ago

and we've started ramping up for his next interview.

We've tried different strategies

to prove that Chad is ready to be released.

I've reached out to a forensic child psychiatrist,

Dr. Patrick Wiita.

Thank you for taking the time to meet.

I thought maybe we could walk through

some of the, uh, findings.

This question, "Are young people, kids, teenagers,

(over video call) "when they commit crimes,

is it different, inherently, than when adults commit crimes?"

And every single time

it's gone to the Supreme Court,

uh, the answer's been pretty emphatic,

"Yes, they are different."

Starting in 2005,

the science behind brain development

has advanced to a point where functional brain scans

can compare, you know,

an adolescent brain to an adult brain.

Different parts of the brain develop at different rates.

So their functional growth in the parts of the brain

that are responsible for emotions

is really, very active in adolescence

and, and the part of the brain that's responsible

for making decisions is lagging behind.

The work I did here was doing a kind of textbook

risk assessment for Mr. Campbell

and my assessment was really consistent

with the department of corrections,

their own risk assessment, they've all been low risk.

In the case of Mr. Campbell,

there's a question that keeps coming up,

"Why did this happen?"

And, and, you know, the best way

that he could articulate it, right,

is that he's not super sure,

he was really angry and really upset

and he had this thought in his head

that he wanted to hurt someone

and it's a matter of all of these factors coming together

at, at a very particular point

and then not having the equipment to not act.

That's the difference between a 14-year-old

who does something like this and a 32-year-old

who does something like this.

Swartz (over video call): Well, I do think your report

is gonna be really helpful.

Crossing our fingers that the commissioners will read

something that we put in front of 'em.

Thanks for taking the time to talk.

Sure, alright, yeah. Thanks.

♪♪

Swartz: Chad's next parole interview

is scheduled for a little over a month from now.

We're gonna have him submit Dr. Wiita's report

which says that he doesn't pose any risk or danger to anyone.

The commissioners spend a lot of their time

focusing on the details of the crime.

And they've said that Chad has failed to show remorse.

So we practice his ability to tell the story,

to convey everything that he's actually feeling about what he did

and not just keeping everything behind a mask.

Oh, my God. You're wasting away.

-How are you? -Nice to see you.

-Nice to see you. -Hey, how's it goin'?

-Lookin' good. -Oh, thanks, yeah.

-You look good. -Baby bump. Come sit.

Okay, let's talk about this next upcoming interview

and how to answer some of these really tricky questions.

Okay.

So do you wanna just practice

what I think is probably

one of the hardest questions of the day,

-which is just like-- -Ask away.

I already know what's coming. Go ahead.

(chuckles) Just-- Okay, so, what happened that day?

Um, August 1st, 1990, um,

um, my mother was in the hospital that day.

I was working in our high school.

I took off of work,

even though I was expressly forbidden to

because I wanted to see my mother in the hospital.

I went into the room, you know,

"Hi, Mom. How you doing? How you feeling?"

And everything just went downhill from there.

I mean, the first thing she said to me was,

-"Why are you here?" -Swartz: Hmm.

Um, for me, that was a serious slap in the face.

I'm not hearing, "Why are you here?"

I'm hearing, "I don't want you."

Looking back on it now,

it's not that she didn't want me there,

it's she was in a lot of pain.

But I didn't see it like that,

so, you know, that kinda set me off.

Now I'm angry, I'm thinking to myself,

"My own mother doesn't like me.

"The person who gave birth to me doesn't love me.

Nobody wants me."

I came home, I'm just stewing,

and I'm like, "I'm, I'm gonna hurt somebody."

I didn't care.

I, I literally was like, "My life is over."

Why did you say or feel,

"I'm gonna hurt somebody"?

For me, if I can make somebody--

That's what I've come to realize now.

If-if I made somebody feel worse than I was feeling,

I thought it made me felt better,

but it didn't.

I called Cindy up, you know,

I asked her, "What are you doing?" She said, "Nothin'."

I said, "Alright. meet me at the high school."

I grabbed my fishing knife and went there.

Next thing I know she's walking across the ball field,

pushing a stroller.

I'm like, "What are you doing?

I thought you said you were doing nothin'."

She was like, "Oh, I'm just babysitting."

I said, "That's not doing nothing."

And that just set me off, like, she lied to me,

which, you know, obviously,

look, that I lied to her to get her to come and hurt somebody.

Um...

from there it just...

I grabbed her. It progressed.

Um, I ended up, uh, stabbing her multiple times.

And that little boy was crying and...

I, uh...

I killed two children.

Swartz: As a child.

Yeah.

Because of my anger, because I wasn't able

to understand what I was feeling and what I was doing.

I, I really didn't grasp it.

And that rage...

it's like I saw red,

is the best I can explain it.

-Swartz: Mm-hmm. -And...

there was no rational thought or understanding

or anything getting into my head.

I'm looking back and just sitting here,

I'm like this...

Excuse me but, "This shit isn't rational.

-"This is, this is crazy." -Swartz: Yeah. Yeah.

"It doesn't make sense. It doesn't add up."

I, I don't know how to express it

-anymore than I'm sorry. -Swartz: Right.

I, I don't-- I mean, I--

You've lived your life for the last 32 years

in a way that expresses remorse and change.

There is nothing that can make up for my actions

but that's not stopping me from chasing it.

Maybe this time they'll see it.

I'll be interested to see what happens with Wiita's report,

since it's gonna be in front of the board.

-November will tell, right? -Yeah.

Forty-five, forty-seven days or something?

Okay. Alright.

-Alright. -Alright.

You have a good, safe trip.

Swartz: Yeah.

♪♪

New York has taken the position

that there is no problem with the juvenile sentences

because guys like Chad who were convicted at 13, 14, 15,

are able to go before the board of parole.

I would argue that the board of parole

is allowed to continue to deny him

parole release in perpetuity,

then how is that not a life sentence?

I've heard that Connecticut is, um,

trying out some new reforms

when it comes to juvenile justice.

Juvenile offenders in Connecticut

can be eligible for a special hearing

for people who committed a crime before they turned 18.

newscaster: Connecticut today passed Public Act 15-84,

which grants new parole eligibility

for juvenile offenders serving long sentences.

speaker: Good morning. This is the session of the Board of Pardons and Paroles.

The purpose of your appearance today

is to tell the board why you are seeking release.

Deborah Smith-Palmieri: The Public Act 15-84

is a juvenile reconsideration hearing

where an individual is 18 and under,

and they're sentenced to more than 10 years.

Carlos Rebollo was only 15 years old

when he was convicted of arson in the first degree

and attempt to commit murder.

He was sentenced to 45 years.

He's now in his late 30s.

He is first having a commutation hearing.

If granted, it would move his 15-84 date earlier.

I want to thank the board for granting me

the opportunity to apologize for my actions.

I not only violated the life and person of Miss Grace Glen

but I invaded her home.

I left her to live with a tragedy that was senseless.

commissioner: I can't help but keep going back

to the fact that you were 15,

but now as I look at your disciplinary reports,

fights, assaults, contraband, disobeying orders, language.

All of a sudden, they pretty much stop at age 19.

Carlos Rebollo: Mm-hmm.

commissioner: So where do you think

that transition started to take hold of you?

When I entered prison it was a very chaotic environment

and I had the mentality of,

I just didn't care about anything.

As I started to mature, I began to understand

how, you know, monstrous in a sense--

commissioner: Yeah, that, that's probably the right word.

Definitely have turned things around.

Smith-Palmieri: When we had Carlos before the board

for a commutation hearing, we reduced his prison sentence

to a point where he would then be eligible

for this 15-84 hearing.

These cases are taking a look at that's where they were then,

and fast forward, in this particular case,

twenty-two years later,

you know, he's not that same person.

-commissioner 2: Congratulations, Carlos. -Okay, thank you.

Thank you guys very much.

The 15-84 juvenile parole hearings

are completely different from the adults'

in that they're considering that the brain

is not fully developed until you're 25 years old,

that you're unable, uh,

to appreciate the consequences of your actions,

that children are highly impulsive

and easily influenced to, um, peer pressure.

And all of these factors that were actually considered

aggravating factors are now mitigating.

♪♪

So, this is a picture with me and my son

when I was 15 years old.

He must have been maybe three months old

and I wanted to be in his life.

I'm most excited and nervous about just hugging my son.

I just... I just wanna know what that's like. That's it.

I have a hearing in two months

as my first parole hearing under 15-84,

and I'm preparing for it.

Trivedi: Todd was transferred facilities.

You don't get any notice.

The Department of Corrections wants to,

quote-unquote, "shake things up"

so that people don't get too familiar.

You know, Elmira was Todd's home for the last seven, eight years

and he was given a few hours' notice

that he was leaving that place never to return.

We're about 60 days away from his next appearance.

Depending on how Todd's feeling,

I'll start to ramp up my prep with him

to get him in the best possible mindset.

Todd: I sat here in my cell.

You know, I'm in there by myself and reading

and praying and contemplating.

So that's the thing where I was telling you

I was really thinking about this,

what you said, about the circumstances...

and conveying that to them

without it sounding like an excuse.

So, so a lot of times it sounds like an excuse to me.

It's just the, the conveyance of things.

People think that you was in it

for the sparkly things and the lavish things.

-Mm-hmm. -And that's not, you know...

um, you, you, helping somebody

and they refinance their house

and you paying the mortgage, you know?

I think it's a really important distinction

between, "I was driving fancy cars,"

and, "I was paying my grandmother's mortgage."

You know, and, "I was feeding my siblings."

-Right. -Right?

The hardest thing is to be able to say

to the commissioners, I think, like, look,

I'm telling you this because it explains

how I came to be a person

who took orders from other people.

-Right. Right. -Right?

But then, you gotta, you gotta walk yourself all the way up

to the thing itself.

-Which is Eddie Byrne. -Right.

This is all about explaining like how we--

That is the toughest part right there.

The, the connection.

Will they really believe that?

Sometimes it's hard to explain a bad thing,

like, "Oh, man, I really participated in this?"

I really... you know, it ain't just today.

It's every day I gotta deal with this.

It's a part of my life.

That guilty part is still there.

And it's not an easy thing to explain.

It's... shameful, you know?

But I, I gotta do it.

Trivedi: This place makes it feel like you are what you did, right?

And for parole commissioners,

I think it's really helpful to separate those two things.

To say, like, I know who I am, right,

and in this one room, I need to focus on what I did.

But those are not the same thing.

I know I'm being tough on you,

but I need you to walk in there believing in your own capacity

to really, like, open your heart and show them who you are.

And part of who you are is a person

who has been through all of this and who did these things.

I got you.

♪♪

Chad: This will be my tenth parole board,

and what is my mindset?

I'm gonna be in prison for another ten years.

That's just a way to protect myself.

At the same time,

I'm very hopeful about this one.

commissioner: I know you've been seen

a number of times by the board.

Chad: Yes, ma'am.

commissioner: How long have you been incarcerated now?

Chad: Thirty-two years and three months.

commissioner: I was really impressed

by the contents of your parole packet.

I can tell that you really spent

your term of incarceration

thinking about everything that happened.

Chad: I destroyed two families.

I took everything from them.

I don't know if there's any words

that I could possibly say to them

that would alleviate all their hurt and pain

and anguish I put them through.

Just how truly sorry I am.

commissioner: Do you think you deserve

to be released, Mr. Campbell?

Chad: I think I've earned consideration.

commissioner: I met you years ago,

there's some personal growth here.

(birds chirping)

-Chad (on phone): Hello. -Swartz: Hey.

-Chad: Hey, how you doin'? -Swartz: Good.

We don't have a decision yet, do we?

Chad: No, I was hoping we did, we do not have a decision yet.

Okay.

Chad: But the interview went very well.

It was by far the most I've ever been comfortable in a hearing.

She highlighted a lot of things,

my personal statement,

things I've done educationally.

Swartz: What about Wiita's report?

Chad: Yeah, she mentioned that,

we didn't talk anything about it though.

That's interesting.

Chad: Well, they asked me, you know, "What were you thinking,

what were you feeling," kinda things

and I was actually comfortable enough

where I got real choked up

and I couldn't ask for a better hearing.

The more I think about it, I really have a shot.

I'm definitely hoping, but I'm thinking

that this might be the one.

♪♪

As far as having second chances,

uh, you know, I'm-- I, you know, I support that.

I mean, are we going to incarcerate a young person

that commits a brutal crime for as long as they live?

I don't know that that's fair,

the Supreme Court says it's not.

In New York, we put that in the hands of the parole board.

All I can say about it is I'm glad I'm not making those decisions

'cause... I-I don't know, they have a tough job.

(camera shutters clicking)

Ferguson: One of the things that's often said

is that a person can change everything about themselves

but they can't change the crime that they did.

So when you do do it, you can't resurrect someone.

You've caused permanent harm.

Shapiro: The line in the sand is that

if you've done something horrible in your life,

you're a horrible person and we can't let you out.

I think the rest of us believe

that we're all more than the worst things

we've ever done in our life.

Gallivan: The members of the border of parole,

commissioners, really do have a lot of power

when it comes to the individual's liberty.

And I think the commissioners who do their job properly,

do have that weight on their shoulders.

♪♪

Smith-Palmieri (on monitor): Good morning, Mr. Rebollo.

Carlos: Good morning.

Smith-Palmieri: This 15-84 hearing

is being conducted in consideration

of the parole application for Carlos Rebollo,

who is serving 39 years for arson first,

and attempt to commit murder.

Good morning Mr. Rebollo.

You've been incarcerated for 24 years.

Can you talk a little bit about when you entered prison,

some of the obstacles that you had

and how you overcame them?

I remember that in my mentality,

I'm thinking that my life was over

and there was no reason to try to be better at all.

I ran into many inmates who were serving life sentences

and they were walking around smiling.

And I asked one of them, you know,

"How could you be so happy under such circumstances?

You're never going home."

And his response to me was, "Life doesn't end here.

"You know, you still have a choice

in how you wanna live your life."

And that had a great impact on me.

(on monitor) And that reflection actually allowed me

to start the process that has led me

to take more and more responsibility for my life.

Okay. I think you hit the nail on the head.

(over monitor) As a Board, as a community,

we are hopeful that remorse is shown

through rehabilitation,

somebody bettering themselves,

you know, I, I think that's a hard--

it's hard for the victims

to appreciate that as, as much,

you know, they'll, they'll never be whole again.

(over monitor) What, what do you think is your most

significant accomplishment

since you've been incarcerated?

(sighs)

I think that...

considering that I left my son

to grow up without a father,

(over laptop) I've always wanted to give him something

beyond what any parent in prison

can claim he's given his son.

And I'm happy to say that he tells me

that he's very proud of me.

Yep.

Carlos: And I still think that I've done so little.

So, I'm looking forward to giving him

more reasons to be proud.

Okay.

Mr. Rebollo, we're gonna discuss your case now, uh,

so you may just listen and you'll be able to hear

(over monitor) what we're going to do.

Smith-Palmieri: I think we're all in agreement

that Mr. Rebollo has done remarkable.

Carlos Daniel Rebollo, Jr. says,

"I love going to see him because he always gets me thinking.

He never gives up on me."

(over monitor) I believe that that actually shows us

where Mr. Rebollo is today.

commissioner chair: I make a motion that Mr. Rebollo be released

to a halfway house placement

under the purview of Department of Corrections

and Community Services.

-Is there a second? -Smith-Palmieri: I'll second.

-All in favor? -commissioners: Aye.

The chair votes aye.

Uh, it is so ordered. Thank you.

Mr. Rebollo, congratulations, good success to you, sir.

Thank you.

(birds chirping)

(tense music playing)

commissioner: Good morning, Mr. Scott.

This is a reappearance for you today.

You continue to serve a sentence of 25 to life.

This shooting was actually a hit.

What can you tell us about this incident?

Todd: I went knowing this man's life was going to be taken.

I could have probably even warned him

that his life was in danger.

commissioner: You couldn't say no?

Todd: They were like family then in my mind

because my own family wasn't showing me love.

It's also fear, too.

commissioner: Say you just said no.

"I will do whatever else you tell me to do,

but I don't wanna do that."

What would have been the result of you saying no?

Todd: I would have got killed.

I know this for a fact.

I didn't say this at the last hearing

but I don't owe these guys nothing no more.

This is something I never wanna see happen again

to anybody, no officer.

I did all this time in jail

and I see how these kids are weaponized by gangs.

The influences that are thrown at them,

even though you are influenced, you still make the choice.

commissioner: And you're Islam now, right?

Todd: Yes.

commissioner: And so, you know,

your responsibility is even greater.

Todd: I understand.

I'm trying to let go of my past.

I'm trying to move forward the right way.

Y'all have a hard job. I understand that.

This wasn't a small crime.

It was a huge thing,

and for years I always tried to minimize my role.

I was ashamed of myself.

I made a bad choice

and I just appreciate the chance to do good.

(music fades out)

Todd (on phone): I have a good feeling.

You know, I feel okay.

Trivedi: Have you ever, have you ever felt this way before?

Todd: Never.

What was the big, what was the big difference, Todd,

than past ones?

(Todd speaking)

Trivedi: Mm-hmm.

Trivedi: Yeah. Do you, do you feel like they were--

do you feel like what you were saying really mattered?

(Todd speaking)

What kinda compliments were they giving you?

(Todd speaking)

Trivedi: I'm really proud of you.

(Todd speaking)

I know, I love you too.

(Todd speaking)

Alright, my man. Love you. Yeah.

(call ends)

(line ringing)

operator (on phone): Woodbourne Correctional.

-Chad (on phone): Hello. -Swartz: Hey.

Chad: Uh, I just got my decision.

Once again, I was denied parole.

On the bright side,

I guess if you wanted to look at one,

is I was only denied for parole for 12 months

this time instead of 15.

It's just frustrating 'cause I had such a good interview

and I felt like these commissioners were the ones.

Swartz: The law says you were 14 at the time,

you're entitled to a meaningful opportunity for release.

As for the facts of the crime, they are never going to change.

They are not allowed to deny you

just because the crime was serious,

and even more so because you were a juvenile.

We just keep fighting.

Chad: Fight's not out of me yet but I'm just, I'm just tired.

Swartz: You know I've believed all along

that we're gonna win in the end,

it's just a question of when.

In New York, we have a lot of people like Chad

who were sentenced as juveniles.

I believe that we'll get him out one way or another.

Chad's case makes me ask this question...

do we want to live in a country

where a child commits a crime that's terrible and horrific

and they spend their life in prison

no matter who they become,

no matter what they turn into as they grow and mature,

or do we wanna do better than that?

♪♪

(line ringing)

-Todd (on phone): Hello? -Trivedi: Hey.

Do you have the decision there with you?

Todd: Yeah.

(Todd speaking)

"...a reward for good conduct." Yeah.

(Todd speaking)

Oh, motherfuck.

(Todd speaking)

Trivedi: But, Todd, it's not about rehabilitation,

it's about fuckin' headlines, man.

I really think that.

It's, it's about who...

who is gonna lead to

a "New York Post" headline,

accusing the board of releasing someone

they shouldn't have released.

(Todd speaking)

Trivedi: It's fuckin' bullshit, man.

And they said as much in the decision.

Like, you can be as remorseful as you want,

but it won't change what you did.

It's like, well, if that's the game,

then why are we playing?

(Todd speaking)

Trivedi: That's how I feel too.

I feel like human garbage, so I'm gonna do that all day.

(Todd speaking)

Trivedi: Yeah, and it's really fuckin' good at it.

(Todd speaking)

Trivedi: I'll breathe when you're free, okay?

Listen, I love you like crazy.

(Todd speaking)

Love you, too.

(call ends)

(solemn music playing)

(sighs)

That decision he just read me essentially says,

"It doesn't matter what you do

"and it doesn't matter what you say.

"What you did is reprehensible

and that you are irredeemable."

Todd: I've done everything.

I've done more than what they asked, you know?

Y'all seen the parole packet.

I have letters from, um, correctional officers,

staff, the superintendent, assemblymen,

you know, that, "This man..." You know?

So I don't know what their reasons is.

I've been truthful, I've been open,

I've taken accountability.

I've-I've expressed my remorse,

my real remorse, you know?

I'm at wit's end with it.

Where's the sense of rehabilitation at?

It seems like the parole board

is stuck on looking at the crimes of years ago

than the steps you took to maturity

and turning things around with your life.

And that's, that's what it should be about.

♪♪

Chad: Hope in prison is probably the only thing

that keeps people sane and alive.

So, I mean, I'm hopeful, but,

it's like...

what more can I do?

Tell me what you want me to do and I'll do it.

I don't have a problem with that.

I owe everybody that.

But, it's just, as you can see, I just--

it's just, it gets hard.

It gets hard.

(light music playing)

Sabrina: People think that everybody in prison is monsters

and that's not the truth.

And people go in broken and come out fixed.

Everybody deserves a second chance.

♪♪

I don't know.

Just to think of him walking out that door...

(sniffles)

just, just overwhelming.

(sighs)

♪♪

Todd: In here, when you look out the window,

you see wild geese,

I've seen deers out there and you see woods

so I don't know where I'm at.

All I know it's Central New York.

I never had a dream about freedom.

The last dream I had was about walking out the door.

I wonder what it would be like, you know?

♪♪

Sabrina: I believe in Todd and I believe

one day he's gonna get those three people that say,

"You've had enough. You did your time."

And he's gonna go home.

♪♪

(Carlos gasps)

Carlos: I love you a lot.

Carlos Rebollo, Jr.: I love you too.

(Carlos sighs deeply)

♪♪

♪♪

♪♪

(music fades out)