Original subtitles

Karley: Who is this?

This is Donatella.

She was a purchase with the sugar-daddy money.

I wanted a hairless cat, and hairless cats aren't cheap.

How much do these cats generally cost?

Like, $1,500 to $2,000,

and if you're gonna get a really good one, like, $3,500.

She's bougie like her mom.

I want one.

♪♪

Karley: I'm an independent woman or whatever,

but I still like it when guys buy me stuff.

Duh.

Like, ever since I was a little girl

watching "Breakfast at Tiffany's,"

I've wanted a sugar daddy to bankroll

my superficial existence.

And now, thanks to the Internet,

I'm pretty sure you can order a sugar daddy on Amazon Prime

because the world is on fire.

As the slutty feminist that I am,

I can't help but wonder,

"Is being a sugar baby the world's greatest life hack?"

♪♪

Honestly in this pre-apocalyptic world

where the average blogger is 50 grand in college debt,

being sponsored by a random finance bro

doesn't sound so bad.

How the F does the average slut make rent these days?

What's the craziest thing that you have ever done for money?

-Oh, yikes. -How much money?

You tell me.

I worked a corporate job for two years.

Probably steal from people.

Licked the sidewalk for, like, $10.

-You've done that? -Yeah.

A library job.

If -- When you were working at this library,

if an older guy came up and was like,

"Will you be my fake girlfriend,

and I'll pay you a couple thousand dollars a month,"

would you have done it instead?

Probably.

Karley: Confirmed -- Everybody's desperate.

♪♪

Back in my mid-20s, I was a sugar baby for a while.

So in the most basic terms,

a sugar baby is usually a younger woman

who forms a relationship with an older man

that has some sort of financial exchange.

These relationships are most often formed on sugar websites.

The most common of all is called SeekingArrangement.

Back when I was on SeekingArrangement,

I knew other girls that were doing this,

but people were pretty discrete about it.

It was something that kind of had a stigma, you know?

Fast-forward a handful of years, and SeekingArrangement alone

has over 10 million registered members.

That's literally more people than live in New York City.

♪♪

With more women on sugar websites than ever before,

I'm curious how things have changed

since I was sugaring, so I'm meeting up

with a sugar baby who's a sophomore in college

to see what she gets out of it.

My name's Ava.

I'm a college student,

and I guess you could say I'm a sugar baby as my "job."

-Side hustle. -Side hustle.

-Main hustle. -I mean, it's just kind of

something to do when I'm not in class.

♪♪

So, this is where I live.

I love men's sneakers, 'cause boys like you better

when you have men's sneakers.

-Oh, what's that? -These cost $1,000,

if you don't know what they are.

These go for, like, two grand now, but...

Really? I know nothing about men's fashion,

but these don't look like they're worth two grand.

They don't, and they're crappy and fall apart on the bottom,

but I'm about the Chanel slides these days.

I feel like you like Gucci.

This is something I'm reading just from being in your room.

That's my brand right now.

Yeah, I got the phone case, the jeans, the shoes,

the sandals, and this is for when I feel like being a girl

and not wearing snakes. -This, I like.

-Yeah? -This, I would get.

If I had a sugar daddy, like, that's what I would pick out.

This one wasn't that much money.

What's "not that much money"?

$1,200.

Like, my bag collection could probably pay for a semester.

So, you bought all this with your sugar money?

Yeah.

♪♪

How did you hear about SeekingArrangement?

Freshman year in college, my friends were like,

"Oh, my God," like, "We're all on this site."

I will walk into a frat party,

and it'll be a topic of conversation.

And I have these frat guys,

like, pimping out girls, being like,

"Oh, let me be your SeekingArrangement manager."

-That is insane. -Yeah.

You don't need a pimp on SeekingArrangement. No.

For me, I made it very clear in my profile what I'm looking for.

That's completely platonic, nothing sexual.

If girls and your friends are sleeping with guys,

can you make more money that way?

I think so. I think it would be so easy.

There's all different kinds of ways of being a sugar baby.

Like, it can be sex work if you make it sex work.

♪♪

So, I'm just gonna show you my profile on my phone.

My username -- I just made "networkseeking."

The heading -- I just put

"Looking to network" with a little happy face.

They love the little happy faces for some reason.

It just makes you seem that much more approachable.

The picture I used -- I just kind of picked one

where I'm just, like, in a tank top.

-You look like a sex doll. -You think?

But, like -- But you're wearing clothes.

Exactly. But that's just your look maybe.

-Yeah. -You have, like,

900,000 messages. -Yeah.

These are all from the last week.

There's, like, a million. -Mm-hmm, yeah.

So what do your arrangements look like?

I make sure I show up wearing something expensive,

like, super nice, and, like,

I'll sit down and talk to them, be like,

"How are you?" like, "Tell me what you do for work."

Like, that's always what I like to start off with.

Then I'll be like, "Well, I'm a PR major.

These are the internships I want.

These are the business opportunities I want,"

and I, like, empower them and make them feel like

they can offer me so much.

It's like a mentor boner.

-Yeah. -I think...

So it's fulfilling them in a different way

than sexually. -Yeah.

How do you learn how to negotiate?

Like, who teaches you how to be a sugar baby

in a way that's safe?

You could go into it blind, kind of,

and you start having all these men message you like,

"$500 pay-per-meet," and things like that,

and they're like, "What? What's this mean?"

like, "What am I doing?" like, "Am I an escort now?"

like, "Is this okay?"

And it's, like, kind of just,

I feel like, learned through experience.

And I'm not saying it would work out for everyone that way,

and I've gotten extremely lucky with the people I've met,

but, I mean, it's taken a lot of sorting through messages

and things like that to get there.

Here's someone I was talking to. This man just messaged me.

He's like, "Hi, I love your profile. Are you still looking?"

and then I explained to him what I'm looking for.

I said, "Yes, I'm seeking a mentor of sorts,

a platonic relationship,

mostly seeking out career advice, friendship,

hoping to meet with someone interested in this over dinner.

-So you told him right away... -Right away.

...that you wanted a platonic relationship,

and he was like...

"Okay, sounds good, mentor/protege.

I've done that before and enjoyed it immensely."

Do you think that, a lot of times,

when guys engage with you after you say

you want something platonic...

They think that they can convince me otherwise.

-They do, right? -They do.

I feel like they do, and so you just take it for what it is.

You have your first dinner, and if you never see them again,

there's other men out there.

Like, I would use it like any other student

would use, like, a job-search site.

It's like I made SeekingArrangement into, like,

LinkedIn with perks.

♪♪

Karley: While Ava has managed to make sugaring

more about handing out résumés than blow jobs,

most sugar relationships are not platonic.

So, where do girls learn

how to negotiate their sexual boundaries

while steering clear of catfish daddies and frat pimps?

Brook: You want to give him something

but not, like, the whole shebang.

-This is, like, my lucky outfit. -Really?

Is it because, like, it's vagina-like?

I've met a number of sugar babies, almost 500.

Is this, like, your full-time job?

♪♪

♪♪

Karley: I want to know how a sugar baby becomes skilled at negotiating,

so I'm in Beverly Hills

at a SeekingArrangement sugar-baby boot camp --

one of many all over the country.

It's like going to trade school but the slutty version.

-Thank you. -You're welcome. Have fun.

Cheers.

-Hey, guys. -Hi.

I'm gonna ask you some nosy questions, if that's okay.

What are the guys on the site like?

We have the very normal and then the very, like, kinky.

You know, they'll just, like, ask for things

I've never even heard of. -Like what?

-Golden oral showers. -I know what that is.

I was like, "Maybe not for me," and he was like, "Okay."

Is it, like, a weird conversation to have,

to be like, "Okay, cool.

It was so great hanging out with you," like,

"We have great chemistry, but, like, now pay me."

It's not necessarily, like,

a talk you have to have about money.

It can be, "I need to move,"

like, "Swipe that card for my rent

for the next 6 months," you know...

-Right, right, right. -...just whatever.

Being demanding, I think, is, like, a learned skill

and one that I, like, haven't learned.

It's not necessarily demanding.

It's being assertive.

Have to be like, "I hate my bag so much.

My bag is broken."

"I broke my zipper and need a new one so bad.

Look, the Gucci store is right there.

It's still open for an hour!" -Yeah. [ Gasps ]

♪♪

Brook: Hi, sugar babies.

Welcome to our Los Angeles "Let's Talk Sugar" pop-up.

I'm Alexis. This is Brook.

We are here today to answer all of your questions

about SeekingArrangement.com.

How many of you guys have a SeekingArrangement profile?

-Good, yes. -Ooh.

I have some notebooks in your bags.

If you guys want to take them out,

I want you to think of the top two questions you have for us

and write them down on your handy-dandy notebooks.

♪♪

And then I will come around and collect those questions.

-Yeah, pull the little page out. -So you can just rip them out.

So a lot of the questions are about money, of course.

When you're asking for money,

it's gonna be based on your need.

Daddies don't want to just buy you a Prada.

You need to have a spreadsheet with your expenses

so that you can share that with a sugar daddy.

You can say, "Where can you help me?"

Then he should know that he needs to take the bait

and give you what you want

because, potentially, you might have to pick up a second job

because you can't afford to hang out with him anymore.

Exactly and you just won't have the time

to spend with him.

Um, is a sugar daddy gonna think I'm, like, totally crazy

if we give him an actual spreadsheet?

On the first date, yes, but...

Do not do that on the first date.

Yeah, no, once you get to know someone,

I don't think it's strange at all.

I think it's really smart to start an e-mail thread

with your sugar daddy.

A lot of older men of this variety

use e-mail all day. -Mm-hmm.

They might not be using texting all day,

but they'll use e-mail. -Think about your own dad.

If you ask your own dad for something...Biological father.

...yes, your biological father, and you're just like,

"Dad, I want money," and he's like, "Okay,"

but if you're like, "Dad, I need a new tire for my car,"

he's probably gonna give you

the money for the tire for your car...

-Been there. -...probably, yeah.

-Dad always comes through. -So...

Karley: Okay, so, the literal dad comparison

is kind of creepy but maybe good life advice.

So that's the, "You're handsome. You're smart.

I love when you call me."

They want to hear you affirming them in that way.

Also, if he's wearing a watch,

you can look at his watch and compliment his watch.

But you need to ask him, be like,

"I really love your timepiece." -Call it a timepiece.

Call it a timepiece because we just like it.

What do I wear on a first date?

You are only going to display one body part,

so if you decide you're gonna show off the legs that day,

I don't want to see all of this out.

You want to give him something, reveal something to him,

but not, like, the whole shebang.

-Don't have all your milk out. -Don't have all your milk out.

Karley: Milk?[Mooing]

No.

If you don't want to be sexual, do you have to?

-Um, no. -Hello?

I would say, "No."

So you want to have a sexual connection

with someone if you want to get intimate with them.

If you don't feel that way, then don't do it.

Please hear these words, like, from me.

Please hear these words.

I was wondering, if you're never willing to have sex,

then what would be in it for the guy?

Like, why would he do it?

There are a lot of people

who have successful platonic arrangements.

-Mm-hmm. -I don't so much like them.

I think they're, like, a bit of opportunists personally.

I think a real relationship,

you shouldn't be opposed to having sex.

I mean, it's online dating, so there are guys

who want to have sex, believe it or not.

-Mm-hmm. -Oh, my God, I'm shocked!

Like, it's just a dating site like any other.

Karley: Okay, so you don't have to have sex,

but you should probably definitely should. Got it.

[Applause]

Stop. Stop.

You shouldn't have, but you should have.

Keep going.

Karley: Times have definitely changed since I was a sugar baby.

Like, I never understood that you were supposed

to call a man's watch a timepiece.

I never have called my tits my milk before.

[Indistinct conversations]

Karley: I came here looking for some clarity on sugar negotiation,

but they just made it seem

like sugaring is a 1950s role-play

where women trick men into handing over their wallets.

What gives?

Every day, there's a new trove

of models and actresses flying into LAX.

I don't know anybody who's not a sugar baby,

if you really want to know.

Interesting.

♪♪

♪♪

Karley: As I'm trying to understand the convoluted world

of the modern sugar baby, I want to know --

What are the daddies looking for,

and how do they feel about opening up their bank accounts?

-I like your house. -Oh, thank you.

Welcome to California.

Have you been on the site for a long time?

Yeah, for more than five years, actually.

So, how did you initially hear about the website?

I was married at the time.

I had discovered that my wife had a lot of affairs,

and I'd gone online to find out something similar

for somebody in my age bracket

and came across the SeekingArrangement site.

Interesting.

I've met a number of sugar babies on the site.

-How many? -Um, almost 500.

You've met almost 500 people?

[ Chuckling ] Is this, like, your full-time job?

[ Chuckles ] In this world today, in L.A. and New York,

I don't know anybody who's not a sugar baby,

if you really want to know.

So, of course, every day, it feels that

there's a new trove of models and actresses flying into LAX

that want to meet their benefactors.

Karley: So in other words, a classic Hollywood romance.

Is there an age bracket that you feel like

is perfect for a sugar baby?

Oh, in their early 20s, say.

That's sort of perverse.

Well, it is.

When you have a young lady in college

going on a date with a guy who is 55,

there's some component of it that isn't quite normal.

It's not "finding the one," if you will,

but it's a relationship nevertheless.

What do you get out of these relationships?

I find it thrilling to be a provider,

and the excitement of being with a young woman

is both very gratifying and flattering.

You know, there's a validation as a man. Right.

Karley: So in a perfect world, both sides get what they need.

However, it's still not super clear

how sex plays into these relationships.

So, I'm headed to meet sexologist and former sex worker

Dr. Carol Queen for some real talk.

Why is it that sugar-daddy websites are being so vague

about whether sex is involved in these relationships?

Because given that money is often clearly involved,

sex and money would equal sex work

and would get the website potentially shut down.

Yeah, because you can't sell sex legally.

When sex enters the picture,

it becomes a different discussion,

and sugar babying lives somewhere

between sex work and dating sites.

You know, it's sort of a Venn-diagram middle space.

Sometimes sex might not be involved,

but I would argue that this is a sexualized situation

in most cases. -Right.

The deniability, I think, is super key here.

From the website to the sugar baby to the sugar daddy,

in this situation, everybody gets some plausible deniability.

It's the kind of thing that you can imagine telling your mom,

like, "I have a sugar daddy," and her being like,

"That sounds okay," versus being like,

"I've got a client." -Yeah.

Sugar babying is just a step away enough

from acknowledged sex work for many people

that it seems doable.

It doesn't bring up the sense of shame

or, "Oh, I can't do that."

It doesn't step over a line that many people would be

maybe a little loathe to step over.

I'm very pro-sex-work for people who are consensually doing it.

However, I do sometimes worry

that the marketing of this website

of, "It's just a relationship,"

leads to young women not realizing

that sex is going to be expected.

I do worry about anybody stepping into the sex industry

not really sure that that's where they are.

Sex work is best when you know you're doing it

and you know how you're optimizing your situation --

be able to communicate, be able to negotiate, all that stuff.

And given the fact that there are millions of women

on this site ostensibly interested in doing this,

it does seem like it would be useful to understand

what sex work is, how to do it safely,

the fact that it comes in many forms,

and that you can do it consensually,

and that doesn't make you a bad person.

Super sensible, and it might help people feel

more grounded in what they're doing.

Right.

Karley: Ultimately, if sex work was legal,

people who wanted to engage in it would be safer.

But as it stands, how do people incorporate sex

into their arrangements?

Jessica: It feels very powerful.

You want me so badly you are going to pay me

a lot of money to be around you.

Respect.

♪♪

Karley: Not all sugar relationships are sexual,

but many are, so I want to know what it's like

to negotiate the intersection of romance and money

when sex is involved.

-Hi! -Hey.

Karley: So I'm meeting Jessica, a college student

who currently has two sugar daddies

and is in town to meet a potential third.

-Glam. -I know.

I got all my cute stuff out.

I'm excited.

So, you're in L.A. for a date, right?

-Yeah, yeah. -What are you gonna wear?

I usually wear this.

This is, like, my lucky outfit. -Really?

Is it because, like, it's vagina-like?

Yeah, no. This is what...

I mean, I think it has a lot to do with it.

It used to not be this short, but it actually shrunk, so...

I feel like, if it's working, we should just stay with it.

So how long have you been a sugar baby?

I've been a sugar baby for -- okay, 18, 19, 20, 21 --

four years.

So, you started right when you were 18, like,

fresh out the gate. -Yeah.

Can I ask how much money you make?

The man who I see consistently, he gives me

a setup of $3,000 a month,

and the man I see kind of, like, on and off,

it's $2,000 to $3,000, just kind of depending.

That one's a little different because we see each other

not really, like, a set amount, you know?

Do you consider being a sugar baby sex work?

Yeah, I definitely do.

Even if you're not being, like, I feel like,

sexually active, you know, on the off chance you are

in one of the sugar relationships

where you don't have sex, you know,

I still feel like it is just because

it's like you're spending time

and, like, emotional intimacy with another person, you know?

I definitely think it is.

So, why do you do this?

I do this because, you know, like,

I've always wanted to be, like, a really educated person.

Like, I've always known, like, I wanted to go to college.

I always knew I wanted to get a degree,

and I always knew I wanted to get a master's.

And that was something that I was like --

I didn't know how I was gonna get to that,

and I was just like, "Dude, I'm spending, like,

50 hours a week at work, and I'm still barely making it,"

you know, just kind of really, like, really, like,

broke my heart to think I wouldn't be able to,

like, reach some of my dreams just because, like,

I just wasn't in the financial position.

So, for you, that money is life-changing.

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

It's just really opened up kind of, like,

a world of opportunities for me

that I had never, like, seen before.

This isn't something I want to do forever obviously, you know?

Like, I want to be making all this money

also, you know, on my own,

but it was definitely, like, an amazing,

amazing start to help me get to where I want to be.

♪♪

So, when you're on your way to meet someone new,

do you get nervous?

I don't really get nervous, you know?

Like, I do enough background, like, checks before.

Like, I do a lot of, like, safety precautions before,

so I know that I'm safe.

I wouldn't recommend anyone ever meeting anybody,

like, in an isolated area.

Have you had negative experiences on the site?

Yeah, I definitely had a lot of negative experiences at first.

Very often, you'll be, like, wasting time after time,

like, you know, spending time with these guys,

but then they end up just, like, ghosting you.

They get you to hang out,

sometimes have a sexual interaction,

and then they just don't text you back.

Yeah, yeah, mm-hmm. Exactly, yeah, and that

happens a lot.

But other than that, it's fun.

Like, you get to get dressed up.

You get to go to a nice place, you know, and it's like --

And most of the time, like,

I've meet a lot of really fun men

and a lot of great men who, you know, like,

even if things didn't work out with in that way,

they were just really fun company.

Well, it feels, like, not feminist to say,

but, like, there is something that can be super erotic

about being, like, paid for.

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

Like, it feels very powerful, you know?

Like, you want me so badly.

You are going to pay me, like, a lot of money just,

you know, for me to be around you.

Feminism these days is so interesting

and confusing, but respect.[Laughter]

Karley: In a society that tends to stigmatize any form of sex work,

Jessica is living proof that you can do it in an empowered way.

-Thank you so much! -No problem.

Karley: Whether you need to pay for college

or just stupidly expensive shoes,

sugaring works for a lot of people

so long as you approach it consciously and with agency,

just like any job or any relationship.

And maybe one day in the Utopian sex-positive future,

our society will permit people to sugar more openly

and, therefore, more safely.

Because no matter what your sugar arrangement looks like,

women should be free to make decisions

about who they bang and why.

My body, my choice, you know?

Sugar on, sluts.

♪♪

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