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* over on Shepherd Avenue...

* they don't really like the things we do...

* we stay up late and laugh too much...

* and tell the kids all you need is love is true...

* I don't always say it, but I'm so glad to be right

* here with you...

* the washer went out again today...

* I hope that you know that it won't always be this way...

* one day we'll look back and laugh...

* and think of about how bad we miss this place...

* it's gonna be all right...

* as long as we're alive...

* we haven't lost this fight...

* as long as we're alive...

* it's gonna be all right...

[Music]

* over on Shepherd Avenue...

* they don't really like the things we do...

- Morris!

Morris!

- Hey, what's up, boss?

- Get in here now, andclose the door behind you!

- Okay. what's up?

- Sit down.

What's up? You wantto me what's up?

Well, I'll tellyou what's up.

I just got off the phonewith the brass upstairs,

and they ripped me a new one.

Do you know why theyripped me a new one?

- I don't have a clue.

- The mayor'soffice is calling,

and he's saying that he nevergave you that quote on the

pritchett scandal.

- What?

- He says he never saidit, never thought it,

never even dreamed it.

- He gave methat quote, Terry.

- Prove it.- How?

- Do you have iton your recorder?

Was there machine else therepresent who can

confirm your story?

- When have you ever knownme to lie on a story, Terry?

- I'm not callingyou a liar, Tony,

but you messed up this time,and it's come down on me.

- I did my job, igot that story 100%.

The mayor gave me that quote.

- But you can't prove it.

We're going to haveto print a retraction.

- Are you serious?

- We're going toprint a retraction,

and you're going to write it.

- No, I'm notgoing to write it.

- What part of theboss/employee relationship

are you having the mosttrouble understanding?

If you tell me what you'regoing to do and not do,

that would make you the boss.

Me boss, you employee.

Boss says write a retraction,and we'll print it.

You employee will also writea letter of apology to the

mayor and send it.

We won't print that one,but you will send it.

Unless you want this to bean ex boss/ex boss

employee relationship.- Terry...

- This is notgoing away, Tony.

I'll try to bury theretraction in the back pages

somewhere, but thiswill be printed.

In the meantime, you're goingto lay low for a while.

- What is this?

- I'm putting you on alittle fluff piece for the

community section.

- Terry, I can't, I've gotmy hands full at

the wilcox trial.

- Not anymore.

Mitch is taking overthe wilcox trial.

- That's my story.

I've been following him sincehe got arrested, all right?

You can't justtake me off of it.

- I can, and I am.

Mitch will handlethe wilcox trial.

You'll do thiscommunity piece.

- Community piece?

Oh, no, these are fornewbies all right?

I've been here six years.

- And if you want to stayhere another six minutes,

I strongly suggest you takethis and shut your mouth.

- Oh, this is unbelievable.

- My hands aretied here, Tony.

I went out on a limb foryou on that mayor thing,

and look what happened.

- I didn't doanything wrong.

- You fail toback yourself up,

and you knowbetter than that.

Especially when you'redealing with a politician.

I gotta take ahard line on this.

- Terry...

- No, no, no!

This conversation is over.

Take this andget out of here.

- Terry, please...

- No, me boss, you employee.

Now close that door on yourway out to having

a really nice day.

[Door slams]

- And then he says prove it.

- So, did you?

I mean, did you prove it?

Why didn't you justshow him your notes?

- He didn't wantnotes, April.

He wanted a recording or aname of somebody that was

there when the mayor said it.

- So he thinks you're lying?

- I don't know, all iknow is the mayor said it,

and I printed it.

- I just can't believe yougot thrown off

the wilcox trial.

You've been workingyour butt off on it.

- I know, now he'sgot Mitch on it, Mitch!

- You like Mitch.

- I don't like himtaking my stories.

- Story.- what?

- You said stories, he'sjust writing this one.

- For now, but I don't knowwhen this whole mayor thing

is going to blow over.

- So what is this fluffpiece about any ways?

- I don't even know, ihaven't even looked at it.

- Well, let's takea look see, okay?

- Probably some dog showor canned food drive,

or Fanny farkle that'scelebrating

her 150th birthday.

- Honey?

- Was I right,is it a dog show?

- Well, definitelynot a dog show.

It's a press release.

- A press release,what's it say?

- It says union for civilacceptance announces

town's first gay pride day.

- What? they want me to cover astory on gay pride day?

- Apparently so.

Actually, no, they want youto cover the preparations of

the gay pride day.

- I get pulled off of amurder trial to do a story

on gay pride day?

- It seems to be the case.

- It's killing me, April.

- So what areyou going to do?

- What am I going to do?

I'm going to go intoterry's office tomorrow,

and I'm going to tellhim I can't do this.

- Tony, we can't affordfor you to get fired.

- Look, honey, i'mtrying to get on with U.S.A.

Today, all right?

They don't hire peoplecovering fluff stories for

the community section.

- I know, but they alsodon't hire people who get

fired for a scandalwith the mayor.

- What am I supposed to do.

- I don't know,i don't know.

Tony, look, why don'twe just do the story?

Do what terrytells you to do,

and just get it over with.

- But gay pride day?

- Yes, a gay pride day.

Have you got aproblem with that?

- Look, Terry, I'm a seriousinvestigative

reporter, all right?

This isn't my kind of story.

- It is now.

- Please, Terry, just putme back on the

wilcox trial, okay?

Look, I know that they'redoing opening statements

today, all right?

And I got a lot of work to doif I'm going to

get ready for it.

- No, Mitch has a lotwork to do to get ready.

You're off the wilcoxtrial, and you're on this.

- So what do youwant me to do?

Just write-up a littlearticle on this press release?

- Not exactly.- Then what?

- I want more ofa story than that.

Get behind the scenes andfind out who the

key people are.

What are they doing toprepare for it, et cetera,

et cetera, et cetera.

- And you really thinkthat this is a story?

- It better be with whenyou're done with it.

- What if I tell you thati can't do it

for moral reasons?

- What are youtalking about?

- Yeah, yeah, see,terry, I don't believe

in homosexuality.

In fact, I'm against it.

As a Christian, ibelieve that it's wrong.

- Okay. what does the Bible sayabout murder?

- What?

- Murder, what does thebible say about murder?

- That it's wrong.

- Yet you cover murderstories all the time.

What's the biblesay about adultery?

- Same thing.

- Yet you called the mayorout on that, didn't you?

Drove the point homepretty well as I remember.

- Is there anything I cantell you to get out

of this, Terry?

- Yeah, "i quit"would do the trick.

Otherwise, youbetter get going.

You've got a luncheondate with the organizer.

His name is Markus fry.

Here's the address, he'sgoing to meet you

there, big guy.

I'm telling you, this is yourfirst step towards getting

back on your feet.Don't waste it.

- Sir?- hi.

- Hello, what cani get for you today?

- Can I get acoffee, please?

- Coffee, wouldyou like that black?

- Uh, yes, please.

- Two dollars.- There you go.

- Thank you.

- Hi, how are you today?- Fantastic.

- Would you like the usual?- Yes, absolutely.

- Morning.- morning.

- Do I know you?- I don't think so.

- Yeah, I do.

You're that reporterfrom the newspaper.

Morris, Tony Morris,that's you, right?

- In the flesh.

- Well, it'snice to meet you.

I read that story you didon the mayor, great stuff.

- Thanks.

- And you're also involvedin that wilcox trial,

you're not here todo that, are you?

- Oh, no, no, not exactly.

Let's just say sometimes youdon't get to put your name on

the hard-hittingstuff, you know?

Sometimes you gottacover the fluff stories.

- It sounds veryinteresting.

- Someone's gotta do it.

- So you're hereto do a fluff story?

- Yeah, well,something like that.

- Forgive me for something,but what is a fluff story?

- You know, one of thosetype of stories that ends up

lining the bottom of abird cage kind of thing.

- I see.

It seems a little beneathyou compare to the kind of

stories you've been doing.

- That's what itold my editor. Thank you.

- Enjoy.

- You know, actually,i didn't get your name.

- Markus fry.

- Um, Markus fry, the sameguy I'm interviewing today?

- One and the same, man.

- Great, yeah.- Shall we?

- Please.

- Look, about whati said, all right...

- Don't worry about it.

It's not exactly the footi wanted to start off on,

but I'm sure it's ahurdle we can get over.

- Well you know, yeah,it's nice to meet you.

- I'm just really honoredand excited that the

newspaper would comedown and cover our event.

- Well, youknow, it is news.

- As you said.

You know, I really am a fan,and I thought the story you

did on the mayorwas well written.

And then I read theretraction this morning.

- Oh, you read that?

- Yeah, I'm a reader.

So what happened there?

- Um, you know what?

Actually, why don't we focuson the event you

got going on here?

- Okay, right tobusiness, sure.

- So tell me, what motivatedyou to make this gay pride

day thing happen?

- We wanted to create anevent that would create a

sense of awarenessand unity among the l. G. B. T.

Community and the communityas a whole, educate people,

empower our peopleand liberate them.

- Liberate your people?

- I know how that mustsound, but you know,

unfortunately, the gaycommunity is still oppressed.

- Okay, do you feel thatsuch oppression is still

prevalent herein our community?

- Yeah, it's everywhere.

I mean, people consider gaysand lesbians to be outside of

the norm, and what theydon't consider normal,

they consider wrong, evil...

- Okay, Mr. fry,this is my fault.

Why don't we get back tothe event at hand here?

- Sure, sure.

Call me Markus, though.

- Yeah, Mr. fry worksbetter, more appropriate,

so okay, so what kind ofreception has the event

gotten from the community?

- So far, it's positive.

I mean, we had to go down tocity hall and fill out some

forms, but there haven'tbeen any opposition,

voices of oppositionor craziness.

- Does that surprise you?

- I think generally peoplejust don't want

to rock the boat.

They think we'llhave our event,

and we'll just go away, butof course we're

not going away.

I actually am surprisedthere haven't been a few

self-righteous bigots whovoice their displeasure.

- So are you saying thereception has been good?

- Absolutely.

You're here, the televisionstation's doing an ad on us,

and the mayor is comingout to give a speech.

He's not coming out,don't print that.

- Don't worryabout it, all right.

Me and the mayor are notreally on the best of terms

right now, so it's best notto add fuel to the fire.

- Well, thank you.

Hold on, I have to take this.

- No problem.

- Markus fry.

No.

Right now?

Okay, I'll be there.

Okay.

Very sorry, I'm goingto have to head out.

Is it possible we could pickthis up tomorrow and

continue the interview?

- Yeah, yeah, of course.

Same time and place then?

- Yes, perfect, thank you.

I really, really am sorry.

- He seems likea nice enough guy.

He really believesin what he's doing.

You've been awfullyquiet tonight,

something on your mind?

- Do you?- Do I what?

- I mean, do you believein what he's doing?

- Well, I'm not going to godown to the gay day parade,

or whatever you call it,if that's what you mean.

- That's not what I mean.

- Then I don't knowwhat you mean, April.

I'm just trying to do my joband write this story and be

done with it so I can getback onto

reporting real stories.

Isn't that what yousaid to do last night?

- I know, but then I got tothinking about it and got to

praying, and what if godwants you to get

through to him?

- About what?

- About what the biblesays on homosexuality.

- I already tried thatwith Terry, all right?

That didn't get me anywhere.

- No, I'm nottalking about Terry.

I'm talking about Mr. fry.

- I'm not aiming to makewaves here, April, all right?

I'll go in there tomorrow,and I'll have a cup of coffee

with him, and then I'll writethe story, and that's it.

Then I'm done withit, and it's over.

- Isn't that what Mr. frybasically has been saying

people have been doingto him all his life?

Ignoring it andhoping it goes away.

- What do you want me to do?

You want me to go in thereand tell him that he's going

to hell because he's gay?

- That's not exactly thephraseology I had in mind.

- He's not going to wantto hear that, all right?

These people, they're likelong tailed cats in a room

full of rocking chairs.

They're just waiting forsomebody to get on their tail

so they can hiss and claw.

- So you're basicallytelling me that you'll allow

somebody else to go in andtell him the truth so you

don't have to riskgetting scratched?

[Makes cat sound]

- Honey, I got a job to doto support us, all right?

And I'm walking on egg shellsright now at work already.

At this point in time, icannot risk losing my job.

I'm paid to get a storyand tell it, not preach.

- I know a storythat you can tell.

- I can't afford to losemy job, April, we can't.

- I'm just saying thatsometimes god puts us into

these difficult situationsand places, right?

So he can test ourresolve and faith.

- And what do youwant me to do, huh?

I am this closeto losing my job.

- I know. Maybe...

Maybe just pray about it.

Just pray about it.

God will show you what to do.

- I'm really sorryabout yesterday.

Some things can't beavoided, you understand.

- A lot betterthan you think.

It's no problem.

So first off, tell me, isthis gay pride day thing that

you got going on here, isthis a way for you guys to

say, look, here we are,and we're not going away.

Is that it?

- Yeah, thank you.

In a way, I mean, it's a wayfor gays and lesbians to say,

we're part of the community.

We're your pharmacist,your doctor, your lawyer,

your police officer,your teacher.

It's a way for peopleto ask questions.

Let them know that we arecontributing

members of society.

Get out of the little bubblethat they're living in and

start recognizingus as citizens.

- Okay, so are you sayingpeople need to change

their minds about you?

- Some people do, yeah.

I mean, the worldhas changed,

it's time everyonechanged with it.

- Okay, why does theworld need to change?

Was it really so bad before?

- That sounds like somethingthe south said to the

north before the endof the civil war.

- All right, we'vedone it again,

we've gotten off track here.

So look, why don't you justprovide me with the name of

the sponsors that you'veobtained for this event.

- Tony, you seem alittle uncomfortable.

Is everything all right?

- Yeah, yeah, no,everything's fine, really.

- Are you uncomfortablesitting across

from a gay man?

- Don't be ridiculous, no.

- You are.- Mr. fry...

- No, here's a man, here'sa reporter who's sat across,

who's set next to, murderersand thieves and rapists and

crooked politicians, andyet in this day and age,

you're afraid to sitacross from a gay man?

- I'm not afraidof anything.

- Yeah, you are,and it's okay.

You're not the first personto be uncomfortable sitting

around me or being around meor dislike me, not like me,

hate me, whatever.

- Mr. fry, I don't know youwell enough to determine

whether I like you or not.

To be honest with you,it's not you

I'm uncomfortable with.

- What is it, then?

- Well, it's your lifestyle.

I gotta say, I'm notcomfortable with that.

- You're not comfortablewith my lifestyle.

- No, no, I'm not.

- Should I make youcomfortable with my

lifestyle?

- I don't thinkthat you can.

You know what?

Actually, I think I gotplenty here to

do the story...

- No, no, no, I like this.

You don't think that i'vegotten to my age without

having to defend mylifestyle, do you?

You tell me what you haveagainst my lifestyle.

- I don't know. Iguess I just...

All right. The Bible says...

- The Bible says, huh?

I've had this discussionmany times before,

and I'm prepared tohave it again, are you?

- Excuse me?

- Are you prepared to havethis discussion with me?

You seem like a smart man,and I'm fairly smart, too.

Especially on a subject iam most passionate about,

my life, that of myfriends and community.

And I just want to make surethat you're up to having a

discussion aboutthis subject.

So let's make a deal.

You come back here tomorrow,i'll come back here tomorrow.

You tell me your side of thestory, I'll tell you my side,

and then we'llsee where we are.

- Okay, and Mr. fry,with all due respect,

why on earth wouldi want to do that?

- Well, you have the mayoron your back

right now, right?

I happen to be friendly withthe mayor and his family.

You come back here, you tellme your side and I'll tell

you mine, and then I'll getthe mayor off your back for

you, and you can go back tohanging out with murderers

and thieves and rapists, andyou won't have to spend

any amount of timewith a gay man.

- Mr. fry, I've alreadyexplained to you...

- Cheap shot, I'm sorry.

I'll be back here tomorrow,and I hope you will be, too.

You have a goodday, Mr. Morris.

- What have I gottenmyself into here?

- You're really goingto go through with this?

- How can I not?

He can get the mayoroff of my back,

and I can get back toreporting real stories.

- Look at you,you're surrounded.

Why so much homework?

- What are youtalking about?

- I mean, if you're justwant to go humor the guy,

just say awaywants you to say,

and that will just get himright off your back there.

- He's too smart for meto fool him, all right?

He'll call me not a technicalfoul and toss me

out of the game.

No, I gotta know whati'm talking about.

- What's thebig deal anyway?

I mean, I'm not gay, but ifhe's not hurting anybody,

what do you care?

- It's simple, Rick, okay?

I don't think god wants usto ignore the

situation, all right?

He wants us tospread his word,

even if that means goingagainst the grain a little,

or in this case a lot.

- What about your job, man?

If this gets backto Terry, done for.

I'm pretty sure the paper'snot going to put up with

anymore of yourslip ups, man.

- I've alreadythought of that.

Sometimes other thingsare more important.

Hey, babe, how was work?

- Fine. hey, Rick.

- Hey, April.

- So what's going on?

- Well, your lovely hubbyhere has a mountain of

homework this he'sgot to attend to,

so I'm going to getout of your hair.

Just be careful, man.

I mean it, just say whathe wants you to say,

and get it done, thisis over your head.

- I hear you.

- What was thatall about?

- Mr. fry has, howshould I say this?

Challenged me to a debateon the biblical

principles of homosexuality.

- Wait, you meanyou took my advice?

- Yeah, and I have no ideawhat you've gotten me into.

- This is thebest opportunity.

Tony, you get to tell himeverything that nobody's

wanted to, but you knowwe never have the chance.

This is so great,okay, all right,

so just bury yourselfin here, okay?

Just okay I corinthians, gothrough there and acts

and all of this.

Oh, my gosh, okay, you'regoing to figure this out.

I'm so happy for you.

- Could you do me a bigfavor, though, please?

- What?

- It's going tobe a long night,

could you put onsome coffee for me?

- Yeah, sure.- Thank you.

- All right, if you needme, I'll be in the office.

- Okay.

- I'll make thecoffee, okay?

- All right, babe.

- Hey, honey.- Oh, hey, what time is it?

- 7:30. I actually thought youleft for work.

Did you sleep out here?

- I think so. A littlebit, any ways.

- I actually gottaleave for work now.

Why don't you jump in theshower and get

yourself all cleaned up.

- All right, I will.

- Do you feelready for today?

- I don't know, babe.

There's so much information.

I don't know if ican remember it all.

- I'm going to bepraying for you, okay?

Just tell him everythingthat the Bible says.

Tony?

- Yeah.

- God's going togive you the words.

- Got it.- I love you.

- Love you, too, babe.

- I'll be praying for you.

- Glad to seeyou could make it.

- Mr. fry, let's getsomething clear, okay?

I'm not a biblicalscholar by any means.

I know what I believe.

- I respect that.

I also know what I believe,and that's what we're going

to talk about today.

- So, how do we getthis thing started?

- Tony, first of all,this is not a fight.

It's not about whothrows the first punch.

It's a discussionbetween two people.

- I hear you.

- Okay, so what about this?

Why don't you tell me whatthe Bible says about

same sex attraction?

- Okay, when the biblementions homosexuality,

it's emphasis is on thebehavior, the lifestyle,

and not the individual.

God loves the sinner,but he condemns the sin.

And my take on homosexualbehavior just like all sexual

immorality isthat it's wrong.

- Hold on, I didn't askabout your take on it.

I want to know what thebible says about being gay.

- Okay, but I thinkthe two go hand-in-hand.

As a Christian,as a believer...

- Okay, for the sake ofthis conversation again,

let's just stick towhat the Bible says.

- Okay, in leviticus it saysthou shalt not lie with can

mankind as with woman kind.

It is an abomination.

- The old testament, yeah,i'm familiar with that.

Are you familiar withthe writer Thomas Payne?

- Yeah, he wrotecommon sense.

- Good, he also wrotesomething called

the age of reason.

Do you know how he referredto the old testament?

- No.

- "Whenever we readof the obscene stories,

the voluptuous debaucheries,the torturous executions,

the extreme vindictivenessof which half the Bible is

written, it would be moreconsistent to call it the

word of a demon thanthe word of god.

It is a history of wickednessthat has served to condemn

and brutalize humanity,and for my part,

I sincerely detest it, asi detest anything

that is cruel." End quote.

I think that pretty muchsums up the old testament.

- Mr. fry, I can't claimthat the old testament was

written by pollyanna.

I'm sure there are thingsabout the old testament we

don't understand, and weprobably won't understand

until we get to heaven.

Like clues to a murdermystery or something

that went undetected.

- Don't you thinkthat the old testament,

the Bible itself,is a bit antiquated?

Doesn't it say in deuteronomythat when men fight with one

another, and the wife of onedraws near to rescue her

husband from the one who'sbeating him and reaches out

to seize upon his privateparts that ye shall

cut off her hand.

Your eye shall have no pity.

Now, that seems abit extreme to me.

- Yeah, I wasn'taware of that passage.

- That's my point.

I think the Bible has to betaken with a grain of salt.

How can something have beenwritten thousands of years

ago apply to today?

- Okay, but Solomon saidthat there's nothing new

under the sun.

Yeah, sure, we have newwidgets and gadgets and

instant communication andentertainment on demand,

et cetera, but man is facedat the basic core to live for

himself or to livefor god, all right?

People from our eraright now, yeah, sure,

we can get into trouble a loteasier than somebody from the

time of Moses because theiridols were clearly idols.

Ours are justdisguised at hobbies,

pastimes and careers.

- Golden calves forthe 21st century.

But doesn't, if iremember correctly,

doesn't the old testamentendorse and actually

condone child abuse?

It says somewhere in there,do not withhold

discipline from a child.

If you beat him with arod, he will not die.

If you beat him with a rod,you may save his soul.

- It saysdiscipline, not abuse.

- So you think hittinga child is discipline?

- To some extent, yeah.

Don't get me wrong, there'speople that go way too far,

but I was raised in a homewhere if we stepped out of

line, we got spankedwhere god put a

little extra padding.

- And you think that's okay?

- It worked. I didn't getany into real

trouble because I was scaredof punishment.

- My parents neverlaid a hand on me,

and I turned out fine.

I've never committed a crime,i've never hurt anyone.

- Okay, so whatabout you, Mr. fry?

I mean, what is itexactly that you believe?

- I believe that basically,everyone is free to make

their own choices.

I don't think that anyone cansay anyone is wrong because

they make a different choice.

Is a Chevy owner evil becausehe doesn't buy a Ford?

It's like that Eric claptonsong, before you accuse me,

take a look at yourself.

I believe that people justlike to pick on other people

because of their differentchoices and no matter what

you do in life, somebody'sgoing to find something

that's wrong with it.

- So it's kind of look adouble-edged sword, then?

- How do you mean?

- Well, I mean you're darnedif you do and

darned if you don't.

If you as a member of the gaycommunity decide to mind

your own business andnot speak out,

then you'll be persecuted bythe radical militant gays.

But if you speak out likeyou're doing here with your

gay pride day, then others,the whatever you call them,

then they'll be on your case.

- Homophobes, yeah, butthere's a third group.

Activists who leavethe quiet ones alone.

If we have the same rightto choose between day and

straight, don't we have theright to choose between

being silent and beingvocal, as well?

- Absolutely, and christiansshould have the freedom to

speak out againstyour lifestyle.

- I don't know about that.

- Okay, so just forthe sake of argument,

you're saying that if someonewere to hold a rally speaking

out against homosexuality,you would argue

their freedom to do so?

- Of course.

- So you havefreedom, but we don't?

Doesn't that seemhypocritical to you?

- We don't hold ralliesagainst heterosexuality

and call it perverse.

Our rallies are peaceful.

They're for us as a communityto come together and

support one another.

- But what I'm hearing isthat the same rules don't

seem to apply to you as forsomebody who's speak being

out against your lifestyle.

In other words, if somebodydoesn't see things the same

way you do, they'repersecuting you.

- It seems to me that peoplewho speak out against us are

nothing more than prejudicedbigots, and Mr. Morris,

I have to honestly tell you,i'm starting to think you

might be one of those.

- Whoa, hold on a secondhere, I don't hate anyone.

Where do you guys come upwith that just because we

tell you that your behavioris wrong that

we hate you, huh?

No, stop, let me finish.

If I tell people that drinksoda that they're wrong

because it containsharmful substances,

does that mean I hatepeople who drink soda?

- No.

- Okay, and if I tell peoplewho drink alcohol and drive

that that's wrong, doesthat mean I hate them?

- Good point, touche.

But there are peoplethat hate us, hate us.

I have personally sufferedthe slings and arrows of

outrageous fortunefor these haters.

- Yes, but they can'tbe true christians.

It says in the Bible thatif you hate your brother,

then the truth is not in you.

Only pseudo christians canhate you for being gay.

I just wish that somehow youcould discern the difference

between real hate andlove that gets

misconstrued as hate.

- Love that getsmisconstrued as hate?

- Yeah, let's play the"what if" game here.

If god warned you in thebible not to be involved in

same sex activity,and you do any ways,

and he banishes you tohell for all eternity,

now that's astipulation, all right?

- Yeah and thepunch line is what?

- If I know thatyou're going to hell,

and I don't tell you, then I,in fact, am showing hatred.

But then there is theflip side of the coin.

If I go out on a limb andrisk getting my head bitten

off and getting accused ofhatred to tell you that

you're wrong, that wouldrequire love on my behalf.

- That would be a verystrange kind of love.

- You wantedlogic, all right?

I just dumped a bunchof it in front of you,

and now you're ignoring it.

- So you believe that allgays are going to hell?

- I don't know.

Luckily, I'm not thejudge of all mankind.

Jesus is going to decideyour fate, not me.

- You just said ifi believe in Jesus,

that I get into heaven.

Shouldn't that trumpwhether I'm gay or not.

- No, see, I also said thatyou have to follow his rules.

There's a bit ofcontroversy here.

- Yeah, so I not onlyhave to come to Jesus,

I have to giveup my lifestyle.

I have to do both in order todance in the

streets of gold, right?

- Maybe I'm wrong,but I really think so.

- But you have some doubts.

- Okay, if you refuse togive up your lifestyle,

I would say that you'replaying Russian

roulette with your future.

In this version, five ofthe six chambers would have

bullets in them, andonly one would be empty.

Do you feel lucky?

- What about christianartists who have recently

come out as being gay afterentertaining and inspiring

other christians for decades,don't they still get into

heaven for theirservice to god?

- I told you I don'thave all the answers.

I struggle with the samekinds of questions that you

do right now, but okay,there's a passage in Matthew

that says not everyonewho says, "lord, lord,"

will enter into thekingdom of heaven.

Even some who have done greatthings in the name of Jesus

Christ, who are guilty ofiniquity and lawlessness.

I don't know exactly whatthat means, all right,

I don't, but I don't wantto see anyone go to hell.

I want to warn them, and iwant to give them

a chance to repent.

- Okay, you reallycare, don't you?

I'm deeply touched.

I've been attacked for mylifestyle in many different

ways, but never with tears.

- Well, they're alanguage, too, you know.

- Okay, that's nice.

But don't think I'm justgoing to be soft on you now.

I'm still going to hold yourfeet to the fire on this.

- I had a feelingyou'd do that.

One more thing on hate.

It seems that someday it'sgoing to be against the law

to say thathomosexuality is a sin.

The people who do,they'll be put in jail.

That kind of thingmakes me weep,

that people in America couldlose the very freedoms that

thousands of peoplehave died to preserve,

that good people will befaced with the choice of

obeying god orobeying the law.

- I'm just going to claim nocomment on that

land mine, okay?

We've covered alot of ground now. What's next?

- I believe it's yourturn it broach a subject.

- Okay, what about theholier than thou attitude

that christians have.

Basically that if youdon't agree with them,

everything youbelieve in is wrong?

- That's a valid question.

Are gays assuming thatchristians who take a stand

that homosexuality is a sinare automatically wrong

because they believedifferently?

- If we agree withthe christians,

then we would both be wrong.

- That's funny, butchristians get their opinions

from the Bible.

- So you're saying thateverything that you believe

is accurate?

Everything actually happened,flood, talking snake,

all of it happened.

- It was written by god.

Sure, it's the word of god,it was written by men,

but they were just vessels.

They were just writing whatgod told them to write.

If it came from god,who am I to doubt it?

- What if the men who wroteall of those things so long

ago, how do you know thatthey were actually writing

what god wantedthem to write?

- Faith I guess.

I mean, we put our faith inthat, and we believe it.

- Your faith, that'ssomething I have struggled

with for a long time.

What's the comfort inbelieving for the sake of

believing?

There are so many things inthis world that are right in

front of us all thetime, right around us.

Why not believein those things?

- According to the Bible,faith is having the

confidence in something thatyou haven't experienced

with your senses yet.

- Wouldn't thatbe blind faith?

- Actually, it'sthe opposite.

It's the act in believing insomething unseen that you do

have a good reasonto believe in.

Can you see bacteria orviruses with your senses,

can you experience that?

No, but you have faith in thescientists would have

looked into microscopesand have seen them.

Before microscopes, peopletheorized that bacteria and

viruses existed because theysaw the signs of

decay and sickness.

They couldn't see bacteriabecause it's too small.

Maybe we can't see godbecause he's too big,

but he left behind the signsof his creation as

a witness of himself.

- I remember readingsomewhere once where Mark

twain said, Andi quote, he said,

"faith is believing thingsthat you know ain't true."

That is why religion,christianity,

can't be proven becauserationality takes us part of

the way, and then we have totake a leap of faith to make

it all the way across.

- See, I don't think that'strue because the Bible says

that faith is the substanceof things hoped for,

the evidence ofthings unseen.

- I know that the Bible iscontradictory in

a lot of places.

It seems to be this battlebetween faith and reason.

- No, actually it saysin the Bible, let me see,

it says we're supposed toreason so that we can attempt

to show people that ourbelief is reasonable,

justified andlogically defensible,

so that the biblemakes sense.

- Doesn't thatconflict with faith?

- The Bible says that we'realso supposed to have faith.

We're supposed to trust ingod and not lean on

our own understanding.

We're supposed to trust godwhether or not his word makes

sense to us or not.

- So with is it? Faith,reason, reason faith?

What is it?

- Well, when the two areboth understood by biblical

standards, I don't thinkthere is a conflict.

I think reason is just a toolthat god has given us to draw

conclusions fromother information,

like information thatcomes from the Bible.

- And you believe thatfaith and reason

actually work together?

- Exactly, when we'retalking about biblical faith

and biblical reasoning.

See, I think faith is aprerequisite for reasoning.

In order to have faith, wehave to believe that there

are laws of logicthat are in place.

- For me, I can't accountfor that kind of logic.

It disagrees withlogic, my world view.

- Okay so maybe you need totrade in your world view for

a god world view.

- Doesn't god wantus to be happy?

I'm happy being whoi am, a gay man.

Why should he care whoi share my love with?

Why should hecare how I love,

who I share my love with?

- Now, don't confuselove and lust.

It says in the Bible thatthe only way into heaven is

through Jesus Christ,and believing in him and

following his rules, andthat includes sexual purity.

- I think it's yourturn to ask a question.

- All right, um, when iwas getting ready for this

interview, I was doinga lot of research.

It seems to me that thesecelebrations are a way for

your people toflaunt themselves.

- Flaunt themselves?

- Yeah, like guys wearingbikini briefs and high

heels and wearing wigs.

If you guys are wanting tobe respected and accepted,

why would you try tostick out so much?

- You think that all peoplethat are gay are like that?

- That's the impression igot when I looked

it up on line.

- Have you ever actuallyknown anyone who's gay?

- Yeah, actually I had acouple of friends in

college that were gay.

- And did they wearheels and wigs to class,

little bikini briefs infront of the professor?

- No.

- Okay, then why wouldyou ask that question?

- Okay, first off, I'm notsaying that all gay people

are like that.

I'm just saying if I was putin a position to celebrate my

beliefs and my lifestyle,i wouldn't want to make a

spectacle of myself andmaybe bug other people.

- You mean you're not...

You mean you're not going tohold a little Christian pride

parade and wear wings andcarry harps down

the street, right?

- No, not any timesoon, all right.

In fact, I think my halo'sat the dry cleaners.

No, but seriously, ihave to ask you

though, during this parade, isthere going to be those

wild things or whatever youwant to call them,

are they going to be aroundhere strutting their stuff

for this gay pride parade?

- Maybe, okay, but iwon't be one of them.

- But do you think ourcity deserves that type of

agitation and disrespect?

I love my city here, and idon't want to

see anything bad happen.

- Me, too, ishare that love.

Look, there are some in ourcommunity who like

to express themselves.

Some like to expressthemselves quite a bit,

just like thechristian community.

Look at that churchthat protests

funerals and everything.

Do you agree withwhat they do?

- No, not at all, thosepeople are extremists.

Jesus doesn't even condonethat kind of stuff.

- They really believein what they're doing.

- I can't justifywhat they do.

- Then how can the entiregay and lesbian community be

defined by a few extremists?

You're trying to put us allin a little box and say that

we're all the same.

You can't do that, just as ican't say that all christians

are the same apparently.

So please don't classify meand my friends as being like

what you've seen on line.

- I assure you I'm notdoing that, all right,

but I'm a reporter, andsometimes I have to ask

questions to get tothe heart of the story.

- Do you think it's possiblethat times have changed to

the point where people justhave to accept that the

culture has moved forward.

Some people need to reallymove forward or

be left behind.

- No, because inthe eyes of god,

we're still being heldto the same standards,

regardless of what time orgeneration we're living in.

- Are you so stubborn thatyou can't admit that people

need to change theirthought process?

- In the Bible, let megive you another one here,

it says, "see to it that noone takes you captive through

hollow and deceptivephilosophy which depends on

human tradition and theelemental spiritual forces of

this world rather thanon Christ."

- How do you interpret that?

- Don't go by what the worldsays instead of

what god says.

- What if the world,as most of it does,

doesn't find anything wrongwith being gay and lesbian?

What about that?

- The Bible says it isn't.

There's another factor wehaven't even considered here,

a very big consideration.

- What is that?- The devil.

- You're trying to makeme laugh now, aren't you?

- No, I assure you I'm not.

Look, okay, why don't weplay another "what if" game?

Let's say there's a mannamed John Doe, all right?

And your job is to keep himfrom getting to Hollywood,

California, thepromised land.

You're invisible, you cantravel instantaneously,

but you can't physicallymess with him.

How would you keep johnfrom getting to Hollywood?

- I'd whisper in John's earand tell him that

Hollywood doesn't exist.

- Okay, that's a good start,what else would you do?

- I'd give him directionsthat led him to take a left

turn at the black forestand end up in Albuquerque.

- You're good atthis, okay, what else?

- I'd convince him thathollywood wasn't such a great

place to end up in.

So I send him out west to endup with a fat lady in Kansas,

getting involvedin drunken stupors,

send him to a casino wherehe'd lose all of his money

- that's great.

- To be really cool, i'ddress up a town near a

mountain with a fakehollywood sign and make him

think he's arrived athollywood, he'd park his car.

- Bingo, now you'vehit the guru stage.

- Now, what would you do ifsomeone told John that you

were doing this?

- Convince him thatit didn't exist.

It would be so easy tomess with people this way.

It is so easy to messwith people this way.

People are basically sheep.

- Okay, now, comeback to real life.

Jesus talks a lotabout the devil.

Now, Jesus is the sonof god, as he said,

and if that's true, then thedevil is just as real

as Jesus, okay?

Now if we take thatinto consideration,

don't you think the devil'sbeen doing a number on you to

keep you fromgetting to heaven?

- You walked me into alittle Christian trap

here, didn't you?

Powerful logic if your"what if"'s are true.

Your punch line is onlyvalid if the premises and

assumptions thatyou've made are true.

Show me god, showme he exists.

- Only the holy spirit canshow you that god exists.

Look, I urge you to blockthese methods of deception,

these things, and see if youcan clear a path

for the holy spirit.

- So you believe it's yourjob to tell people what is

right and what is wrong?

- I believe everybodyalready knows what's right

and wrong because god'sgiven us this guide,

our conscience.

The same laws he places inour heart are the same laws

that are in the Bible.

Every time we lie,cheat, steal, whatever,

we're breaking god'slaw and we're sinning.

And this little alarm isgoing on in our head saying,

ding, ding, ding,hey, this is wrong.

- What if my consciencedoesn't convict me for my

sexual behavior.

Could it mean thatit's okay for me,

and it might bewrong for you?

- No, because yourconscience can be disarmed.

Persistent sin will do that.

But we're all going tobe judged by

the same standards.

- My brain hurts, okay?

We've covered a lotof ground today,

and I've got otherthings to do,

so why don't we trythis again tomorrow.

- I'll be here.

- Great, I'll see you then.

Wait, I just want to tell youthat I really appreciate you

getting real with me today,sharing your vulnerabilities,

your doubts and your tears.

- Well, maybe tomorrowyou can bare your soul.

It's your turn tomorrow.

You take care, Markus.

- You too, Tony.

- Oh... hey.

It went that well, huh?

[Tony moans]

- Just look at itthis way, right?

You just write the story,and then you turn it in,

and then you'll never haveto worry about it again.

- No, no, no,no, not exactly.

- What?- he just wanted a recess.

- A recess?

- Yeah, I gottago back tomorrow.

- Well, why?

- I guess I stumped him.

What am I doing, April?

Besides beating myhead against a wall.

- You know whatyou're doing?

Exactly what godwants you to do.

- Yeah, but why?

- Because he told you.

Tony, you could have gone inthere and wrote the

story that you weresupposed to tell,

but apparently god laidsomething else on

your heart. Otherwise...

- It must be that becausethe stuff I'm telling

him is really deep.

- What do you mean?

- I mean I know a littlebit about the Bible.

And you know I've been doingall of this homework to get

ready for this, but the stuffi'm telling him is

way over my head.

I even had the guts tobring up Satan today.

Yeah, I risked being laughedright out of the coffee shop,

but it actually went well.

I think I weakened hisdefenses a bit when he had to

consider that he was beingled by Satan like a sheep on

a leash to the slaughterand didn't even know it.

- I'm so proud of you.

- Did I some thinkingon the way home, too?

- Yeah, what about?

- I've been approachingmarkus like he was an enemy,

somebody I had to joust with.

But now I understand thatpassage that says we wrestle

not with flesh and bloodbut with principalities.

- Principalitiesand darkness.

- Yeah, and Satan is thereal enemy here, not Markus.

I'm not going to be able itdefeat Satan with logic.

We need to liftmarkus up in prayer.

- You're callinghim Markus now?

- Well, he is a person,and he's a nice guy.

- That's incredible.

Tony, what do you think'sgoing to happen when

this is all over?

- I have no idea.

- I mean, you don't thinkhe's going to come crying to

you asking for forgivenessfor his since, do you?

- No, not at all.

He actually believes there'snothing wrong with what he's

doing, and that'swhat worries me,

that I'm going to talkuntil I'm blue in the face,

- oh, he will.

- He's got a thickshield, but I think I

dented it today.

- You know, if anythingyou're planting seeds.

-I guess. I'll just go in thereand keep telling him

what I can, maybe get him tothink about some things.

- So what do you thinkyou're going to write

when all ofthis is over?

- I have no idea.

Yeah, but I gottawrite something.

- You know what?

You'll figure it out.

You always do.

All right.

- Thank you.

- Can I make dinner?

- Sure. I'm just goingto lay back here.

[Music]

* seems the world has closed its ears

* to what god has to say ...

* I believe we must take a stand for

* what is right today ...

* there's sin everywhere ...

* so look the other way ...

* but I choose to stand for Christ,

* believe the words he says ...

* the right to believe ...

* the right to believe ...

* it's a right to believe ...

* it's a right to believe ...

* the word of god stands as relevant today ...

* but there are those who hide from truth of what

* the good book says ...

* they choose to live in shades of gray ...

* instead of walking the narrow way ...

* but I believe in standing for Christ...

* whatever price we pay ...

* the right to believe ...

- This is unbelievable.

I'm going to have thesethings all over the.

[Music]

- 1 corinthianschapter 1 verse 6.

* right to believe ...

* right to believe ...

* it's our right to believe ...

* it's our right to believe ...

* it's our right to believe ...

* it's our right to believe ...

- Couldn't getour normal table?

[Chuckling]

- Yeah. um, hey, what's thatverse in the Bible,

corinthians I think itis that talks about

being gay?

- I think you mean 1corinthians chapter 6.

- Can you read thatone to me please?

- Yeah, sure.

It says do you not knowthat wrong doers will

not inherit thekingdom of heaven?

Done be deceived.

Neither the sexuallyimmoral nor idolaters

nor adulterers normen who have sex with men.

- Yeah, that's the one.

Now, that seems a bittough, doesn't it?

- I guess, but it'sright here in black and white.

- Seems interesting Tome some of the other

words that are usedalongside that word you

translate as being gay.

Idolaters, the sexualimmoral and adulterers.

Check it out.

- Ok. what is this?

- Surprise.

- Where didyou get this?

- As we've alreadyestablished, Mr. Morris,

I also have friendsin high places.

- This isnobody's business.

- True, but it seemsto me that makes you

a hypocrite.

All this time you'vebeen saying my being gay

is a sin against god andyet all this time I've

been sitting acrossfrom an adulterer.

That's what it says inthe divorce papers, right?

Your wife caught new theact of having an affair.

And isn't thatclassified right there

alongside being gay?

Being a drunkard?

Being a thief?

Adulterer.

- You know what?

You're right.

You're right.

I committed adultery.

I cheated onmy first wife.

I committed that sin.

- Uh-huh.

- And some day I am going tobe judged for that sin.

I've accepted that isinned and I've taken

responsibility for that,and I asked god for

forgiveness andhe's forgiven me.

- Well, you see,there you go.

You and I aren'tso different.

- If you mean becausewe're both sinners,

yeah, you're right.

I mean, yes,i'm a sinner.

We're all sinners here.

- Amen.

- But there's one bigdifference between you and me.

- What's that?

- I know that icommitted a sin.

I know it Andi admit it.

I asked for forgivenessfor it, but I

stopped doing it.

- And that justmakes it all better?

- I know Jesus hasforgiven me for those sins.

- You don't say.

- What about you?

If you look in the bibleand god says that it's a

sin to be involved inhomosexual activity, and

you do end up standingbefore him being judged,

what are yougoing to say?

Are you going to sayyou're sorry for what

you've done?

- No. I am who I am.

And I will never everapologize for that.

- Wow. you know what?

You are going tobe you're own

prosecuting attorney.

- I guess I'll crossthat bridge if I come to it.

- When.

- Excuse me?

- You will cross thatbridge when you come to it.

- You know, if there isa heaven and there is a

judgment day, I thinki've got a better than

average chanceof getting in.

- On what basis?

- On the fact thati've led a good life.

I've never hurt anyone.

I've neverkilled anyone.

Out of the tencommandments, I've kept eight

of ten of them, so likeyou I think I deserve to

get into heaven.

- Ok. first off, none of usdeserve to get into heaven.

It's been made veryclear that actions and

deeds alone willnot get you in.

Only belief in jesuschrist and acceptance of

him will get you in.

- Obviously we seethings very differently.

- Obviously.

- You know, one of thethings I've noticed in

the past few yearsis that churches are

talking a lot lessabout gay issues.

And why do youthink that is?

- Ok. I feel like you'resetting me up for

something here so i'mgoing to say, why do you

think it is?

- Well, I think thatthe church is start to

go reconsiderits position.

Last night I did alittle bit of research

myself on the Internet.

Did you know in 2003that the episcopal

church ordained a gaybishop? And in 2004, the

pacific northwestmethodist church

supported alesbian pastor.

If the Bible is soclearly against

homosexuality, whyare so many churches

supporting it?

- Because I think thatin our society we've

gotten to a point thatthe Bible is no longer

seen as an absoluteauthority by all the churches.

- Maybe that'sa good thing.

Maybe the church isstarting to get some clarity.

- See, I can't say thatthat's a good thing.

As a Christian, I believethat the Bible is the

word of god.

Who are we, listen,who are we to pick and

choose as his creationwhat we want to believe?

No, I think the Bible isan all or nothing thing.

Seriously, sin.

You either got tobelieve all of it or you

believe none of it.

- God, you soundlike my dad. For real.

I was raised catholic.

I used to go tomass every Sunday.

Catechism classevery Saturday.

I really loved learningabout god in my classes.

- So okay, ididn't know that.

How did your parentsreact though when you

told them you were gay?

- How do you think?

Not so well.

My dad stilldoesn't talk to me.

That's another problemi have with religion.

Christianityin particular.

If religion is all aboutlove and accepting

people, then why is itso against what people

do with their love?

- I think christianityis not about religion.

It's about arelationship.

- What's thatsupposed to mean?

- I think religion is man'sway to try to reach god.

Instead offollowing god's law,

they enacted their ownlaws that would suit

their lifestyle orgive them control.

- Right on.

For the first time in threedays, I actually have to

agree with you. True.

- Okay.

- I realized veryearly on that there was

something differentabout me.

And I also realized whatwas different about me

was something that thechurch was not going

to agree with.

- That was going to bemy next question to you.

How did you knowthat you were gay?

- I guesswhen I was 18.

I mean, I think iknew before then

I was different.

But it was only afterhigh school once I got

out in the real worldand lived a little bit

that I startedto realize it.

- What was it thatconvinced you?

- I saw thingsdifferently.

I thought differently.

I really wasn'tattracted to the girls I

went to school with.

At that point I wasn'tattracted to the men either.

I mean, boys.

I was more like a plant.Asexual.

I started to read andmeet people, live life,

and I realized maybei was born this way.

Oh, let me guess, youdon't believe people can

be born gay.

- No, I don't.

- You think all thescience doesn't --

- science? I don't thinkthere's ever been a gay gene

identified by science.

- You thinkit's a choice.

- Yeah.

- Medicalprofessionals, experts,

the world over, thekinsey institute --

- Kinsey institute?

Like Alfred Kinsey.

Alfred kinseywas a homosexual.

Seriously, he spokeout on restrictions for sex

in any format.

He was all for bestiality,incest and rape.

I mean, thatdude was sick!

And he unleashed with hisfaulty research one of

the greatestrevolutions, a sexual

revolution uponthe entire world.

Do you realize that halfthe people he used for

his research and surveyswere people in prisons

and asylums?

- No --

- hold on. Don't takemy word on it, okay?

You do the research.

- I have.

- That man was puttyin Satan's hands.

He's at least half toblame as Charles Darwin

for the messed upstate of our society.

- Darwin? really?

You don't believe inevolution either.

You think theworld is flat?

- Don't even getme started on that.

Let me ask youone question.

One of the rules thatgoverns survival of the

fittest is the abilityfor a species to pro create.

The more offspring aspecie has the better

chance of survival.

How does homosexualityfit into that framework?

How many offspring hasever been produced by

same sex encounters?

- A gay man canartificially inseminate

and impregnatea lesbian woman.

- Artificial. yeah.

Isn't that the option ofnatural and thus a force

that lies outside ofthe supposed process of

evolution includingnatural selection.

- So you think there'ssome biblical principle

at work that made gaysand lesbians decide to

swim up stream againsthumanity --

- it's wrong to say thatgod made me a homosexual

because sin didn'toriginate with god.

It originated with us. Man.

[Deep breath]

- You think there mightbe things in life, other

factors as you saymight sway a kid?

- Yeah.

I've already mentionedto you the devil.

And I really honestlybelieve that you're

homosexual agendanowadays with your whole

it's ok to be gay sloganis swaying kids to

believethis they're gay.

- You really thinkthat's the case?

- Yeah, I do.

- Don't you thinkthere's other things in

this world that couldimpact a child, a kid?

- Ok. define otherthings for me.

- Like I said I used Togo to church regularly.

At least until I was 14.

- What happened?

- I decided I didn'twant to go anymore.

- Yeah. but I mean, why?

- I don't thinkthat's relevant.

- Of course it is.

You were going tochurch all the time.

Then you justup and stopped.

I mean, something musthave changed your mind.

- Are we off therecord here fully?

Don't take any notes?

- Yeah. of course.

- When I was 14, I wasmolested by a man I went

to church with, afriend of my dad's.

I never told my parents.

I never told anyoneuntil a few years ago

when I toldmy therapist.

- I --I'm so sorry.I --i had no idea.

- Something changedin me after that.

I felt like I wasworthless and broken.

I kept asking myself howcould this Christian man

--how could this godfearing man do this to me?

How could god letsomething happen like this?

How could god let thishappen especially to a

little kid?

- You blame godfor what happened?

- I blame god fornot stopping it!

I can't believe i'mtelling you this.

- You --youdon't have to.

- I think I gotta.

I think I gotta let youknow that there are

things that can happenin this world that can

change a person forever.

I came to peace withwhat happened a long time ago.

I realized it wasn't myfault, but I could never

understand how your godcould let that kind of

evil live in this world.

There, you see, yourdevil is really just a man.

- He was just a toolin the hands of Satan.

Just like god usespeople to build his

kingdom, Satan usespeople to build his

kingdom of darkness.

[Chuckles]

- That sounds like somekind of 80's horror flick.

- Except it's real.

Do you think that whathappened to you helped

you make the decisionthat you were gay?

- I think you'remissing the point.

What happened to medidn't make me gay.

I was born this way.

What happened to me justmade me think the whole

church thing was not allit's cracked up to be.

Here was this goodchristian man, he did

this to me.

I was gay beforethis happened.

Do you get it?

I always felt that thechurch was a good thing.

After that, iwasn't so sure.

- There's nothing thati could say that can

make you feel better.

It's all aboutfree will.

I mean, if god gave usthe ability to choose

our own destiny,

[sobbing]

Evil had tobe an option.

Ever since Adam took abite out of that apple

in the garden of Eden,we were all cursed to

live in a sinful world.

- I know. You're a Goodman, Tony Morrison.

[Deep breath]

I hope you just knowthat people in the lgbt

community are just likethe rest of the world.

They just wantto be loved.

We just want to be lovedand give love in return.

- I know, just likesome extremists.

Just like some peopleuse christianity to do

the same.

Satan is pulling thestrings of anyone he

can, Markus.

There are people outthere that can help you

reverse this curse.

- You're talking aboutdeprogrammers,

pray away the gay.

- I'm talking aboutpeople who set people

free through god'sword and his love.

There are peopleout there who

--heterosexuals whostruggle with sex.

And they put up thiswall between them and god.

I did that myself once. I did.

And I had to pray to godand ask him to help me

tear down the wall.

Research a man by thename of Dennis jernigan.

He was a christianmusician. He is.

But he was gay.

Now he's the father ofnine beautiful children.

- So you're sayingthere's somebody who can

make me stop beinggay, make me "normal"?

Who defineswhat normal is?

- The Bible does.

I mean, even if you lookat nature, even nature

itself says that a malehooks up with a female

to preserve lifewith the future.

It's critical that youunderstand that it's not

just homosexuals.

Heterosexuals likemyself we deal heavily

with sex.

Porn and adultery arerunning rampant right now.

And Satan, he's having afield day right now with

the divorce rate,pulling and strings and

everything with us.

Another name I want todrop for you here, ok,

it's Steve Gallagher.

Check out his bookson sexual issues.

He had them andhe overcame them.

[Pen clicks]

[Sniffs]

- I'm rambling allover the place here.

I think it's prettyclear that you can't

prove god exists.

- Maybe to you, but youcan't prove to anyone

that god doesn't exist.

- Let's assume thathe does exist, ok?

My point is that youcan't show that being

gay or lesbian is wrong.

So far you've given mea few passages

in the old testament.

If you look in the tencommandments you don't

find anything.

New testament. Nothing.

If Jesus made all therules, why didn't he say

anything aboutbeing gay?

- He did.

- No, actuallyhe didn't.

I've looked all over.

Backwards and forwards,through the concordance.

Nothing. nothing.

- Here it is.

First of all it says inromans, "because of this

god gave them overto shameful lusts.

Even their womenexchanged natural sexual

relations forunnatural ones.

In the name way that menalso abandoned natural

relations with womenand were inflamed with

lusted for one another.

Men committed shamefulacts with other men and

received in themselvesthe due penalty for

their error."

- Wait a minute. So --

- see. right there.

Jesus did deal with gaymarriage in the new testament.

- No. romans waswritten by Paul.

Paul was not presentwith the disciples.

He was not therewhen Jesus spoke.

- You're right.

Jesus didn't say thisdirectly, but what he

did say god hand in handwith same sex marriage

and homosexualityin general. Okay.

In Matthew, he said, "haveyou not read that he who

made them at thebeginning made them male

and female, and said forthis reason a man shall

leave his father andmother and be joined his

wife and the two shallbecome one flesh."

- This has nothingto do with what we're

talking about.

- Because Genesis isreal history that can be

confirmed by science, hedid deal directly with

the doctrine ofmarriage.

- Science confirms Genesis?

That's a big stretch.

Come on.

- Some scientists believe inthe big bang theory.

You had nothingand then boom!

Universe created.

They even say that thatthe law of gravity if it

were even slightlyhigher or lower that the

universe would have beenstill born, it would

have crushed itself.

So where did the lawsof gravity originate?

- I'm not anastrophysicist.

- Check mate.

God exists and heis the creator.

All right.

In John it says, "in thebeginning was the word

and the word was withgod and the word was god."

Now, we believe thatjesus the creator is the word.

And so when Jesus isreferencing the old

testament, he'sactually referencing

its principles.

God wrote the laws ofuniverse and society.

- Tell me this, doesjesus expressly condemn

in the Bible being gay?

- Not in thosewords, no.

- Thank you foradmitting that.

Even if he did, thebible was written by men.

Men can pick and choosewrite about and over

thousands of yearsthings get translated

aramaic to Greek, greekto Latin, english.

How can somethingtranslated over that

many thousands of yearsbe something you want to

hang your hat on?

An imperfectrepresentation at best.

- Some words havemay changed through

translation but theprinciples and teachings

of the Bible arestill the same.

The biblical view onhomosexuality has never changed.

It's still the same.

- But the civilizedworld has changed.

The world viewhas changed.

- Yes, but we're notsupposed to let the

world views cloud whatthe Bible teaches us.

- We're just goingaround and around in

circles here.

Maybe we just have toagree to disagree.

- Markus, isn't thatwhat we've been doing

for the past three days?

It's like I saidyesterday, ok, I can't

reason anyoneinto believing.

- I have been tryingfor four years to get

this city to give mea permit to hold our

event, ourpeaceful event.

Four years of no onelistening, four years of

people mockingand judging.

The idea of a gaypride day --

- four years?

- Yeah.

- Ok. well, look, christianshave been trying for

over 2,000 years toget people to listen.

They have been and stillare getting persecuted

and mocked for whatthey believe in.

I've been lucky.

But there have been somany people who have

sacrificed so that I canspeak openly like I am

here today.

- And that's what i'vebeen striving for, for

the gay community, formy community for us to

speak openly.

But we have to dealwith people judging us.

I've had to dealwith your judgment.

- No. no, actually ihaven't judged you at all.

I'm in no positionto judge you.

- I think you came herealready having judged

me, already havingjudged gay and lesbians.

- Look, I've alwaystried to have an open mind.

I usually don't get afeel for somebody until

I actually get a chanceand sit down and talk

with them.

Some reporters they goin to write a story with

a preconceived idea or apreconceived notion of

who a person is beforethey even write the story.

See, I pridemyself on not doing that.

- Did you have apreconceived notion

about me?

- Honestly? no. No.

To me this was justanother story that I was

writing, Markus.

- I don't get that.

Based on the things i'vetold you the past few

days, I would think thatyou would hate me by now.

- There's something my mom usedto always tell me, okay.

She used to saylove the sinner.

Hate the sin.

I don't hate you, Markus.

I can't judge you forthe lifestyle that you live.

All I can do is tellyou what I believe.

- And you have theright to believe what

believe whati want to believe.

That doesn't make eitherone of us bad people.

- No. what makes us bad peopleare-- at least in god's

eyes is our sin.

- Your adultery.

- Yeah. andyou're homosexuality.

We're both going to haveto answer for those some day.

- Can I ask youone more thing?

- Sure.

- What are yougoing to write?

You came here three days agoto write about my event,

a gay pride day.

All we've done thepast few days is talk

about heaven and helland all these other

stuff, so what are yougoing to write for the paper?

- I guess I'll justwrite the story.

- Which story?

- The ones thatmy hands write.

Unfortunately, Markus,that's the best I can

give you right now.

Can I ask you onemore question?

- Yeah.

- Are we good here withthe whole mayor thing?

- Yeah, man. We're good.

I'm a man of my word.

I'll get the mayor offyour back like I said I would.

He actually owesme a big favor.

Well, I guess i'llbe heading out.

It's been a pleasure.

- You ain'tgoing anywhere.

- Who? me?

- Yeah. I want to show some ofyour gay pride here for us?

- Wait a minute!

What's going on?

Do I know you?

- No. but I know you and whatyou're trying to do.

Not on my turf.

- Hold ona minute, pal.

Just put the gun downbefore somebody gets

hurt and you regret thisfor the rest of your life.

- You and I areon the same side.

I've been listeningto your conversation.

Get out of the way.

- If that's true thenyou know that I believe

in love and not hate.

And certainlynot violence.

Please, just putthe gun down.

- Look, man, I don'twant to hurt you.

Just that freak behindyou, so get out of the

way or i'llhave no choice?

Are you willing todie for this man?

- Are you?

I hear the electricchair is quite a shock.

Greater love hath no manthan to lay down his

life for a friend.

- I'm warning you.

If I'm going to fryfor killing one dude,

doubling the scoreisn't going to matter.

I only want to take himdown, so get out of the way!

- Tony, you don'thave to do this.

- Look man, you don'twant to kill anybody.

If you did, youwould have done it as

soon as you camethrough the door.

You want to talk, solet's go outside and talk.

- What do youknow about me?

What I want is mybrother back, the one

that got involved with asleaze like this guy

and got aids and died.

Can you bringhim back for me?

- Look, I'm sorry aboutyour loss, all right,

but this isn't going tobring your brother back

and killing thisman won't either.

Is this what you'rebrother would want?

Think about that.

Think aboutthat real hard.

- You think I haven'tthought about this.

What kind of fooldo you think I am?

These people they're allthe same just like the

one that got mybrother sick.

- You think this iswhat your brother would want?

He's gone.

You're still here.

All right.

You think he would wantyou to throw away your

life like this?

What about your mom?

What about your mother?

Does she deserveto lose two sons?

Think about it, man.

- Tony --

- I think you justsaved my life. Why?

- I don't know.

Maybe after my heartgets below 5,000 beats a

minute and my headclears up I can tell you.

- After the adrenalinride subsides.

- Exactly. whew.

I've never been soscared in my life.

- You didn't show it.

- You didn't hearmy knees knocking?

- I thoughtthose were mine.

Did you really mean it?

- What's that?

- That you'Remy friend.

- Yeah, Markus.

You're my friend.

- I don't knowwhat to say.

I don't suppose you'daccept a hug from me.

- Markus, even friendsneed to have boundaries.

- It's ok. I understand.

Thank you from thebottom of my rapidly

beating heart.

- I'm sure you wouldhave done the same for me.

- I don't know.

I hope so.

- Markus, look if youremember anything about

what we talked abouttoday, please please

remember this, that eventhough we're sinners and

we're broken, justlisten, god still loves us.

He loves us more than wecould ever know and he

loves us so much that hecame to earth to die for

the very sinsthat he hates.

All right?

God bless you, Markus.

- Excuse me, sir.

- Yeah.

- I just want tolet you know I called

the police andreported that man.

- Oh, thank you.

That's good.

- You're Tony morrisfrom the paper, right?

- That's me. Yeah.

- I couldn't helpoverhearing you talking to

Markus and I apologize,but I have a

couple questions.

- Yeah, sure. Go ahead.

- The things you weresaying about getting

into heaven earlier, doyou have a pamphlet or

anything onthat subject?

- Oddly enoughi think I do.

Let me see.

There you go.

- Thank you so much.

- No problem.

- And another thing.

Do you think thatpeople really can help

homosexuals change?

- I don't thinkso, but god can.

Thank you so much.

God bless you.

- Thank you. You too, sir.

- And the festivitiesbegin at 11 A.M.

Followed by a paradedown main street ending

with a carnivaland a concert.

Admissionto all is free.

- Well, whatdid you think?

- It is what it is.

- It's a story aboutthe gay pride day.

- Definitely is that.

- Ok. what was isupposed to write?

That was the story thatwas assigned to me.

- I know but I'm sayingi don't know, after

everything that happenedthese past three days I

thought you would havewritten about that.

- Terry wouldn'tbe happy. All right?

I could lose my job.

We could loseeverything.

- I understand.

I'm just saying thatthere's something bigger

at work here and youshouldn't ignore it.

- I'm not ignoringanything, all right?

- Just --just promiseme you'll pray about it.

- Ok. I promise.

- I'm going Togo take a shower.

[Lap top clicks closed]

- Lord, god, I don'tknow what the deal was

these last few days buti really need to know.

This is the articlethat's getting

turned in tomorrow.

What am isupposed to do?

What am isupposed to write?

[Soft music plays]

- Did you getit all done?

- Yeah. at least until iget to the office.

Right now, we need tohave a little talk.

- That doesn'tsound good.

Normally something thatstarts off with that

sentence isfollowed by bad news.

- Cool your jets.

It's not aboutyou really.

It's about me.

I haven't beencompletely honest with you.

- About what?

- Adultery.

- Tony, youcheated on me?

- No, no. No, I haven'tcheated on you.

I would nevercheat on you.

I did on my first wife.

And I never told you.

- That scared me.

- I'm sorry. I'm sorry. My bad.

I was nervousabout telling you.

I mean, I didn't want totell you but I felt

that I had to.

There's a wall, it's nota big wall but more like

a curtain between us.

And I don't want itthere any more and worry

that one day you'd findout about it and you'd

come to me and say hey,we need to have a little talk.

- Why now?

I mean, why are youtelling me now?

- Markus.

He found out and irealized if somebody

could find out thatinformation, they could

blackmail me with that.

- My heart is stillup in my throat.

I'm sorry.

You didn't tell me wayback then because you

thought I was goingjust to dump you?

- If that would havehappened, that would

have killed me.

In one single act oflack of self-control and

idiocy it would havedestroyed not only my

current marriage butdestroyed my dream of a

second chance witha wonderful woman.

Penny for your thoughts?

- You need morethan a pretty penny.

Oh my gosh.

My thoughts areall over the place.

You just caughtme off guard.

I guess, thank you.

Thank you for beinghonest with me and

trusting me.

To be honest with you idon't know what I would

have done in thebeginning of

our relationship.

I can't say what I wouldhave done six years ago.

I might have givenyou the boot.

- I understand.

We've both grown upa lot in six years.

- We have. Amen.

And I really like whatwe've grown into.

I can honestly say that i'ma happily married wife.

- Ditto.

- You're a happilymarried wife?

- You know what I mean.

- I just --i just needto get some closure on this.

Can you just tell mewhat happened so I can

try to avoid somethingsimilar happening?

- I did a lot ofthinking about this, and

I got marriedbefore I was 20.

I wasn't even ready, Andi certainly had a

incomplete understandingof what a covenant

marriage was all about.

- Now you do?

- No, not complete.

But muchbetter, I think.

You know, I see moreeach day when I

read the Bible.

I see how god ismarried to his church.

Do you understandwhat I mean?

- Yeah, I knowwhat you mean.

Covenant is a bigpart of the equation.

It's a reallyimportant part.

I don't understand howyou didn't get that.

What caused youto break it?

- I'm convinced it allstarted when my wife and

I stopped prayingtogether.

- Oh. a family that praystogether stays together.

- Yeah. well, we stopped.

As a result ourarguments snow balled

out of control.

Pretty soon it was likemy whole house was a war zone.

The only time I couldeven bring myself to say

I love you was in thethrows of passion.

Totally unappreciated.

And she complained abouteverything that I did.

It might me feel theheight of a flea.

And Lola came along.

She had nothing but goodthings to say about me.

She built me up insteadof tearing me down.

- Was she prettierthan your wife?

- No. she gave meencouragement and respect.

- Men do craverespect, don't they?

- I know I did.

- And do you now?

- No. I already have it.

Or at least I didbefore this confession.

- You still do.

Thank you fortelling me.

Why don't you --whydon't I stop crying.

Come here.

Give me a hug.

[Door creaks closed]

- Here you go.

- I'm assuming thatthis is finally your

story on gay pride day?

- Yes, sir.

- Why arethere two folders?

Did you write two versionsand you wanted me to

pick the one iliked the best?

- Not exactly.

There are two storiesthere but only one of

them is what youasked me to write.

The other oneis a bonus.

One to be printed todayor at a later date maybe.

- We can't print this.

- Why not?

That's just as much thestory as the gay pride day.

- It's going to makesome people mad!

- What do you think thearticle on gay pride is

going to do?

- Well, that'sdifferent?

- In what way?

Because the gay andlesbian community have a

large backinglistened them?

Or because it's a kick-a-Christian-to-the-curb decade?

- Look, Tony, iunderstand your

frustrations with this.

I remember when I was inhigh school they showed

us this movie calledfuture shock.

It depicted a marriagebetween two men.

My class mates and ijust laughed until the

roof shook because itwas so ludicrous to

contemplate two guyswalking down the aisle.

- And now it's happening inseveral U.S. states.

So you're not asupporter of their cause?

- No. heaven's no.

I don't even understandthe situation.

Women are made like thisand men are made like

--you know what I mean.

You know, you can't puttwo bolts together and

expect to holdanything up.

- That's a good analogy.

So it's kind of likeholding up an entire

society through theatomic family structure.

So you'll printmy story then?

- Hold on! I'm nottaking sides here.

This is a newspaper.

Our goal is to makemoney, not take sides in

a mini civil war.

- Terry, you don't takesides by printing the

arguments ofboth parties.

If you don't print mysecond article, then you

are taking sides andyou're muting information.

The purpose ofnewspapers throughout

all these years havebeen to inform and

empower society to makeintelligent choices.

Watchmen on the walls tomake sure that society

and government arethe best they can be.

- How about I give you newmurder story instead?

- No. not instead. Also.

Look, Terry, I wantmy story printed.

Look, I'm guessingthere's no problem with

the mayor'soffice anymore.

- Yeah. mayor did call.

- And?

- You're off the hookon that, but if I print

this you could beright back on it.

- I'm willing totake that chance.

Terry, this story isthat important to me.

- Geez. ok. Ok.

I will read it over inits entirety and I'll

think about it.

That's alli can promise.

In the meantime here'syour new lead story.

- I'm on it, chief!

- Morning.

- Morning. the newspaperis on the table.

- Anything interestingin it today?

- I thought so, buti'm biased because my

husband wrote somethings in it.

- Gay pride article?

- Yeah and anotherstory as well.

- What? you mean terryprinted my article?

Oh, he never told me hewas going to print it.

- He wanted tosurprise you.

- That he did. Wow!

Maybe he figured hecouldn't fire me so he'd

cause me to have aheart attack instead.

- Why don't youread it?

- Sure?

- Uh-huh.

- When my editorassigned me the task of

writing about thepreparations for the gay

pride day to be held inour fair city, I was

less than thrilledto say the least.

Regardless, I met for threedays with the organizer

of the event,mr. Markus frye.

I was amazed by theenthusiasm and charm

that he demonstrated.

Like any other storyi've ever written, I did

my best togather the facts.

I soon realized howeverthat this story was

different than anyof my previous work.

For the first time in mylife I felt compelled to

share something verypersonal and dear to me.

Most of the time my jobjust requires me to

gather facts andspit them out.

I couldn't dothat this time.

There was somethingbigger than myself

driving me to injectmyself into the story

although my journalistictraining screamed at me

to back off.

As I researched andwrote this first draft,

I was finding that I hada story to tell about my

journey to completethis assignment.

This experience wasalmost like reading an

interactive storyon a computer.

I took a risk and toldmr. Frye that my beliefs

as a Christian wereinterfering with my

ability to write aboutthe preparations of the

gay pride day.

Mr. frye agreed todiscuss our differences

with me in onopen forum.

He did the best to sharewith me all the defenses

that have been used tocondone homosexuality

for years and I did mybest to show what the

Bible and christianitysay about homosexuality.

Mr. fry and he had haveheartfelt conversations

that opened up newvistas to both of us.

However my story was notabout a new vista but

rather about refocusingon an old one.

In the clamor of thehomosexual community to

show their pride, idiscovered that I need

today come out ofthe closet myself.

I'm not ashamed of thegospel of Jesus Christ

and I needed to show mypride in my creator.

I realized that we as asociety have decide that

had being politicallycorrect is more

important thanobeying god's laws.

The laws of mankind havesomehow soup seeded

god's laws.

I realize we needed tochange this if we want

or country torise again.

I think we need to getback to using the Bible

as a moral compassand not using the GPS

of corrupt andcorruptible men.

The practice oftolerating everything

even when you knowsomething is wrong just

to avoid conflict isn'talways the best way of

handling issues.

I've been doing that,but now I draw a line in

the sandand say no more.

I have to wonder whymy feelings are no

longer respected.

Is the vocal minorityin our world now

controlling the silentmajority through

intimidation andlobbying and pressure?

I fear we havesacrificed the very

principles that our fourfathers have founded our

country on.

We've taken sacredprinciples of democracy

and freedom anddistorted them so that

the freedom of religionthis nation was founded

upon can be retired, tobe replaced with the

repress significantsystems of the past who

anyone who differed withthe ruling party and

religion or politicswas in danger of having

their necks stretched.

We used that policyto remove prayer from

schools and then refusedto examine the evidence

of how our society hasdecayed as a result.

Can we honestly say thatour country is better

because ofthese changes?

I wondered why got putme into a position to

talk to somebody thatwas never going to

change his positionon something.

Then after all theconversations were over

and I was about to exit,i young lady came up to

me and asked to knowmore about my faith.

I realized then that iwasn't wasting my time

for those three days.

My words, the words thatgod gave me touched

someone that I didn'teven know was listening.

This may very well thelast article I ever

write for this paper.

Maybe any paper.

But I can truly say ifi had to do it all over

again, I would.

The homosexual communityshould be allowed to

express their opinions,but in a truly free

society christiansshould be allowed to

keep their rights toexpress opinions that

they glean from theiruse of the bedrock of

American society,the Bible.

I am a Christian, abeliever in Jesus Christ

and the word of god.

It is my god given rightto believe and to think

and to worship inany manner that my

conscience dictates.

I choose to exercisethat right to believe.

[Music]