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Would you like to inspect the original subtitles? These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated: 1 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:04,240 As far as I'm concerned, my husband is still alive, 2 00:00:04,240 --> 00:00:08,040 and I have no reason to believe otherwise... 3 00:00:08,040 --> 00:00:09,880 ..since his body has not been found. 4 00:00:09,880 --> 00:00:12,680 This programme contains scenes which some viewers may find upsetting 5 00:00:12,680 --> 00:00:14,280 and some strong language 6 00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:16,800 INTERVIEWER: Do you think that you would like to see him again one day, 7 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:18,440 if you do believe he is alive? 8 00:00:18,440 --> 00:00:23,880 Um, as it appears that he doesn't WANT to be seen again, 9 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:25,760 at any rate so far, 10 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:27,440 I don't want to see him again. 11 00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:31,400 And that's purely up to him? I mean, if he walks through the door, 12 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:32,800 you would be glad to see him, 13 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:34,320 despite all that's happened? Exactly. 14 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:36,280 Yes, I would be glad to see him. 15 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:41,840 Tilly. 16 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:43,040 Won't come. 17 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:45,960 Come on. 18 00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:51,760 I wish to interview him 19 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:53,880 and I'd like to interview him as soon as possible. 20 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:57,000 Have you any idea why he is isn't coming forward at the moment? 21 00:00:57,000 --> 00:00:58,040 No. 22 00:01:05,320 --> 00:01:08,360 Do you think there is a chance that he is still alive? 23 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:09,400 I hope he is. 24 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:13,280 Of Lucan himself, nothing has been seen 25 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:16,120 since his children's nanny was found battered to death 26 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:19,200 here in the basement of the family home in Belgravia. 27 00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:24,040 This just doesn't happen, does it? 28 00:01:24,040 --> 00:01:26,200 The chances of you being adopted 29 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:30,200 and finding out that your real mother is in one of the biggest 30 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:33,480 murder mysteries of all time, it's just... It's unbelievable. 31 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:43,320 The Westminster Coroners' Court returned a verdict that 32 00:01:43,320 --> 00:01:46,240 Sandra Rivett had been murdered by Lord Lucan. 33 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:52,720 When you start investigating more and more, 34 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:54,600 that's all you think about. 35 00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:59,920 Exhaustive police searches of the south coast produced no clue. 36 00:01:59,920 --> 00:02:02,960 Soon the hoteliers of northern France 37 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:05,400 were to start a worldwide fashion for spotting Lucan. 38 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:08,040 There's been many, many sightings all round the world, 39 00:02:08,040 --> 00:02:10,520 none of them have turned out to be Lucan. 40 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:16,720 And then you realise 41 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:20,000 nobody's actually really got very far with it at all. 42 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:22,320 Do you think he's altered his appearance at all? 43 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:24,120 Again, I don't know. 44 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:25,800 The very fact that Lucan's face 45 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:27,600 is so well known is as confusing 46 00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:28,800 as it can be helpful. 47 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:34,600 If alive, he could easily change his appearance completely. 48 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:37,400 There were obviously various different ways 49 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:40,720 he could have aged, and it will depend completely on his lifestyle. 50 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:49,960 The murder of my mother. 51 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:53,240 The obsession was, well, where's Lord Lucan? 52 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:55,280 Sandra was forgotten about. 53 00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:57,960 The police found the body of Sandra Rivett, 54 00:02:57,960 --> 00:02:59,480 the nanny, battered to death, 55 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:01,480 bundled in a mail bag in the basement. 56 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:06,520 I've seen more photographs of her dead than alive. 57 00:03:13,640 --> 00:03:18,200 Everything that you do read about Sandra in newspaper cuttings - 58 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:20,040 lots of boyfriends. 59 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:22,760 Two children out of wedlock - 60 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:24,760 my half-brother and myself - 61 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:27,720 and then to give us both up for adoption, 62 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:30,800 that probably didn't look very good neither, did it? 63 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:34,040 That's a lovely picture, isn't it? 64 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:39,280 These are the only photographs I've got, just these four. 65 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:41,960 They tell me nothing. 66 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:50,760 Then you start thinking about, well, actually, who knows my mother? 67 00:03:55,880 --> 00:03:58,080 I thought Veronica, Lady Lucan, 68 00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:01,680 the second-last person to see Sandra alive. 69 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:07,280 So, in April 2012, I wrote to Lady Lucan. 70 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:10,600 I didn't really expect a reply 71 00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:12,320 but I did have one. 72 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:15,040 "Subject: Mother. 73 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:17,320 "I'm so glad you got in touch. 74 00:04:18,840 --> 00:04:20,240 "Your mother had only been with me 75 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:22,360 "for eight weeks before she was murdered. 76 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:25,360 "She was kind, loyal and a dignified woman. 77 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:27,920 "She was the best nanny we had. 78 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:31,040 "You should be reminded that, in the 1960s, 79 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:34,120 "to have a child out of wedlock was still frowned upon, 80 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:36,560 "and contraception often failed. 81 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:39,760 "I say this to assure that your mother was not promiscuous. 82 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:43,440 "If you have any further questions, do not hesitate to put them. 83 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:45,480 "My very best wishes." 84 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:51,320 I thought that was really nice, that she'd got back to me like that. 85 00:04:57,080 --> 00:04:59,280 Did you write back? Yes. 86 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:01,960 "I don't know you personally, 87 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:04,480 "but feel sad for you over what's happened. 88 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:08,320 "I do not know if the stories about your husband living in another 89 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:10,240 "country are true or not. 90 00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:15,480 "I am not sure how I feel towards him, taking my mother's life. 91 00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:22,360 "Anger, cross and hatred are all the things I feel from time to time." 92 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:24,600 But now? 93 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:28,040 Not from time to time now. 94 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:30,920 It's worse, is it? 95 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:35,320 Yeah, it is worse, yeah. Because, um... 96 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:37,120 Oh, it's a lot worse. 97 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:41,120 My anger is, um... 98 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:44,160 I sort of have to control it, I suppose. 99 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:49,000 What did Veronica come back to you with? 100 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:51,240 "I think that you should concentrate on the fact 101 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:55,000 "that my late husband killed your mother BY MISTAKE." 102 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:56,280 In capitals. 103 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:01,200 That's no mistake. 104 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:05,640 Can't just get away with this. 105 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:10,720 If he's alive, I was going to find him. 106 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:19,920 Hundreds of sightings are still pouring in from all over the world. 107 00:06:21,840 --> 00:06:25,680 The police followed up stories in southern Africa in Mozambique. 108 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:27,680 Have you ever seen this man? 109 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:29,920 No, sir. 110 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:31,920 No? Same man? 111 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:35,240 No? 112 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:40,600 By the spring of 2012, 113 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:44,800 what I knew almost certainly was that Lucan had got away to Africa. 114 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:51,400 I had the leaked Scotland Yard intelligence report that gave us 115 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:54,720 the name he was believed to be living under in Africa - 116 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:56,000 John Crawford. 117 00:06:56,000 --> 00:07:00,000 I decided, if he's still alive, I'm going to get him. 118 00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:09,760 Do a shot of me, a nice shot, nice and steady. 119 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:11,240 Hold it for ten seconds. 120 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:12,880 I know what I'm doing here, guv. 121 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:15,360 We don't talk whilst we're recording. 122 00:07:16,640 --> 00:07:18,640 I'd forgotten how annoying he was! 123 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:22,320 Stuart Crookshank had been with Customs and Excise, 124 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:23,800 run Heathrow Airport. 125 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:25,680 I said, "Look, would you come with me?" 126 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:31,200 I had some ex-Customs colleagues who knew how Mozambique operated. 127 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:32,920 An inside track. 128 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:36,000 John Crawford's name was run through 129 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:38,480 the new Mozambique passport computer. 130 00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:39,920 How did you get on? 131 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:43,320 Hello, Glen. They've checked out the name for you. 132 00:07:43,320 --> 00:07:44,760 And the result? 133 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:46,280 No trace, I'm afraid. 134 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:50,960 John Crawford not coming in, not going out. 135 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:52,920 Boom, dead end. 136 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:57,280 I must admit, I did... I... 137 00:07:57,280 --> 00:07:58,560 Yeah. 138 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:01,960 Because you go into all of these, like, pumped up, 139 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:03,280 going, "Here we go, here we go!" 140 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:05,880 And it was just dropping off a cliff. 141 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:09,520 We worked together for many years. 142 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:11,920 He's an optimist, he's positive. 143 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:14,080 He then dropped it on my toes 144 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:17,760 that Lord Lucan's brother was in Johannesburg. 145 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:23,680 Hugh Bingham, Lord Lucan's brother, was just across the border. 146 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:28,600 He'd moved to South Africa only six months after the murder. 147 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:36,160 He'd joined a very niche sect called the Theosophical Society. 148 00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:38,960 A religious group influenced by Buddhism - 149 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:42,080 only 35,000 people. 150 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:46,000 The trouble was he didn't give interviews. 151 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:49,720 Even the lead detective had gone in the '90s 152 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:52,800 to try and talk to Hugh, and he wouldn't have any of it. 153 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:55,320 I'm afraid the answer is absolutely unchanged. 154 00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:57,520 I don't wish to get involved in this. 155 00:08:57,520 --> 00:09:00,480 Is there any chance of having a talk with you without filming? 156 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:02,520 That wouldn't serve any useful purpose. 157 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:04,120 My mind is made up on this. 158 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:06,520 I'm sorry to have troubled you. Not at all. 159 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:08,920 So, we go to Johannesburg, 160 00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:12,040 and the Right Honourable Hugh Bingham is living in an area 161 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:13,880 that has very tight security. 162 00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:19,360 High walls, security cameras, barbed wire, intercoms everywhere. 163 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:23,040 And I remember knocking on this old metal door. 164 00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:24,920 The door slowly opened, 165 00:09:24,920 --> 00:09:26,840 and there was Hugh. 166 00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:32,360 And he didn't like journalists. 167 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:36,840 What's the one thing that's going to get him to talk to me? 168 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:41,280 And, of course, it went down with Neil like a bowl of sick. 169 00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:44,920 I was disgusted with Glen 170 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:48,040 even trying to go down that road. 171 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:51,080 We'd been working together for a few years and he comes out - 172 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:53,000 well, he could be innocent. 173 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:58,000 No-one knew exactly what took place in Lower Belgrave Street 174 00:09:58,000 --> 00:09:59,240 that night. 175 00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:01,840 But there was evidence 176 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:05,200 that there was another man in the run-up to the murder 177 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:06,720 staying in the house. 178 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:10,760 One of the children gave a statement 179 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:13,920 testifying that there was a man who'd been staying overnight 180 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:15,000 in the house. 181 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:16,120 The man had never been traced. 182 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:18,560 Now that, for Hugh Bingham, 183 00:10:18,560 --> 00:10:21,200 is going to suggest the police have botched this, 184 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:24,400 that they've just fingered his brother Lord Lucan, 185 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:27,240 without looking at the entire picture. 186 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:28,960 And it worked. 187 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:32,000 I do believe my brother was innocent. 188 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:35,920 I think he realised immediately, 189 00:10:35,920 --> 00:10:41,600 er, that the dice were very heavily loaded against him. 190 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:45,000 And so he decided 191 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:46,920 that the only alternative 192 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:50,640 was to remove himself from the picture. 193 00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:54,160 Do you believe he committed suicide on or around 194 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:56,440 the night of the murder in 1974, 195 00:10:56,440 --> 00:10:59,120 or do you believe he did escape? 196 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:05,080 The idea of suicide, I think, would not be a goer for my brother. 197 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:08,080 He was a man of considerable resourcefulness. 198 00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:10,680 He would have found a sanctuary somewhere and, 199 00:11:10,680 --> 00:11:12,240 in the nature of things, 200 00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:15,800 he would have had to have lived a very...restricted life, 201 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:18,880 to remain undetected. 202 00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:22,440 But in your heart of hearts, if you like, in your soul... 203 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:27,680 Mm. ..do you still think your brother is alive? 204 00:11:27,680 --> 00:11:30,880 I have no knowledge at all. 205 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:33,440 I have no evidence one way or the other. 206 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:36,880 Thank you. Done. Done. 207 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:38,160 Tea or coffee? 208 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:40,000 A cup of tea would be lovely, thank you very much. 209 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:42,880 A cup of tea would be lovely. Erm, yes... 210 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:44,240 Stop recording. 211 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:47,200 TAPS KEY 212 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:49,240 Yeah, that was when it got interesting. 213 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:52,760 It was when I'd turned the camera off 214 00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:54,760 and I was packing up the kit, 215 00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:57,400 he said, "Look..." Matter-of-factly, in a way. 216 00:11:57,400 --> 00:11:59,200 "..he did escape, he did get away... 217 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:03,680 "..and he became a Buddhist." 218 00:12:03,680 --> 00:12:05,800 And then he said he'd gone to India. 219 00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:13,280 I said, "Where do you think your brother is?" 220 00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:17,080 And he said, "A retreat in India." 221 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:22,120 The fact that he said the word "retreat" 222 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:26,240 suggests to me that it was a spiritual sanctuary, 223 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:28,160 if you like, 224 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:30,800 or somewhere where he was safe. 225 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:38,240 I'm fairly certain that what Hugh told me was the truth. 226 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:40,800 He meant it and I respect him. 227 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:43,720 So, I have no reason not to believe it. 228 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:48,880 And then he said 229 00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:51,320 that, in 2008, he'd died. 230 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:53,680 Matter of fact. 231 00:12:57,440 --> 00:12:59,920 Hugh had said, "He's dead." 232 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:05,000 Your gut reaction is to believe that, isn't it? 233 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:08,320 Initially. 234 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:10,800 Why would he be lying? 235 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:14,280 Well, there's lots of reasons why he would lie, of course, 236 00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:18,240 because if you get that across, that his brother's dead, 237 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:20,520 then people stop looking for him 238 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:23,160 and the whole thing just goes away. 239 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:28,520 But something always turns up. 240 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:36,000 Five years after Glen met Hugh, 241 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:39,040 I had a letter in the post from Perth, Australia. 242 00:13:40,680 --> 00:13:42,000 "Perth? 243 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:45,560 "Who do I know in Australia? Who do I...? Perth?" 244 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:51,720 "Dear Neil. 245 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:53,880 "This short letter is to establish communication 246 00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:55,760 "between you and myself. 247 00:13:55,760 --> 00:13:57,640 "In 2002, 248 00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:00,880 "a Buddhist monk - fake..." - in brackets - 249 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:02,760 "..by the name of Adam Kadmon 250 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:05,520 "came to me and confessed to me 251 00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:07,800 "about what sounded like murders 252 00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:10,280 "involving two women 253 00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:12,960 "by the names Sandra and Veronica. 254 00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:18,560 "Some days later, Adam Kadmon tried to kill me. 255 00:14:18,560 --> 00:14:21,640 "I will explain everything in the near future, 256 00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:24,720 "but I can tell you, yes, Lucan did kill your mother, 257 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:26,480 "I'm sorry to say. 258 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:29,480 "I hope to hear from you as quick as possible. 259 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:31,200 "Good luck. Stephen." 260 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:33,920 What did you make of that? 261 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:38,440 Er... Well, to begin with, to be honest, 262 00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:41,800 I thought somebody that's absolutely crazy, 263 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:46,080 and...what on earth is this man on about? 264 00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:49,680 I thought, "The first thing I've got to do is ring Glen." 265 00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:59,920 He'd got a letter from Perth in Western Australia. 266 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:06,440 A man who thinks he's met Lord Lucan under a different name, 267 00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:07,880 I was like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah." 268 00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:10,720 And then Neil just dropped in that this man is a Buddhist. 269 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:13,520 And I'm transported instantly back 270 00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:17,840 to the Theosophical Society in Johannesburg 2012 with Hugh Bingham, 271 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:19,720 and what he said. 272 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:22,240 And it's what you'd call... 273 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:24,280 ..ping! A connection. 274 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:28,160 AUSTRALIAN ACCENT ON TV: His disappearance 275 00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:29,480 has long been shrouded in mystery. 276 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:32,720 Suspected killer Lord Lucan, the British aristocrat, 277 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:36,080 hasn't been seen since his children's nanny was murdered. 278 00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:39,600 Suspected of murder for more than four decades, 279 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:42,600 Lord Lucan has been Britain's best known fugitive. 280 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:45,160 His children's nanny, Sandra Rivett, 281 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:46,920 was found bludgeoned to death. 282 00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:50,280 A massive manhunt failed to find any trace of Lord Lucan... 283 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:55,240 Well, this is massive. 284 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:58,160 It is, it is, but let's not get carried away. 285 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:00,160 We've just found a letter, 286 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:01,320 some of which is a little bit, 287 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:03,640 "Really?" Question mark. Question mark. 288 00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:04,760 Oh, yeah, definitely. 289 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:06,920 But contains a crucial bit of information. 290 00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:08,960 Potentially, if this man's correct, 291 00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:11,720 then Lucan could still be alive. 292 00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:14,880 And then if he's still alive, let's go and get him. 293 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:16,960 Mm. It would have been a lot easier 294 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:20,480 if he'd decided to disappear to France, wouldn't it? Yeah. 295 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:22,360 If you're going to disappear, 296 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:24,440 you might as well go to the furthest country away. 297 00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:26,680 Mm. And Perth is the most isolated city... 298 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:28,800 Yes, it is, yeah. ..in the world. 299 00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:34,200 Neil, I could see, was falling in. 300 00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:39,040 We'd got the Buddhist link. Now what? 301 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:42,680 I've got contacts in Scotland Yard. I rang them. 302 00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:46,120 And they said it warrants further investigation. 303 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:51,520 He is a man of potential significant interest to law enforcement. 304 00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:54,520 Go with an evidence-gathering reason. 305 00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:55,840 You've got justification - 306 00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:59,560 you're going with the son of the murder victim, Sandra Rivett. 307 00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:03,000 All right, Tilly? I'm off now. 308 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:04,240 All right? 309 00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:06,920 Be good. 310 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:19,240 Lord Lucan. 311 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:23,920 High living, gambling, speedboat racing aristocrat. 312 00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:26,720 The idea of him being a Buddhist, 313 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:29,120 that's extreme. 314 00:17:29,120 --> 00:17:30,160 Yes. 315 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:34,280 And I'm thinking, "Is Stephen right? 316 00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:36,280 "Is he wrong? This is crazy. 317 00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:37,880 "Is Stephen crazy? 318 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:39,520 "Am I crazy?" 319 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:49,760 I said to Neil, "We're following the evidence." 320 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:53,360 Is this it? Yeah. 321 00:17:53,360 --> 00:17:55,800 There'd been this ping-ponging of letters to Stephen. 322 00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:58,880 We had his address - we'll go knock on his door. 323 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:00,640 THEY KNOCK 324 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:08,240 Hello. Hello, Stephen. 325 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:10,240 Nice to see you. 326 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:13,240 Good to see you, good to see you. Please, come in. 327 00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:14,960 Are you sure? Thanks. Yeah, sure. 328 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:20,080 I just knew there was something wrong. 329 00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:22,680 I could sense there was something horribly wrong with this man... 330 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:27,160 ..who used - his name was Saddhatessa. 331 00:18:28,360 --> 00:18:30,480 But he keeps changing his name all the time. 332 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:34,600 When I first met him, he said his name was Adam Kadmon. 333 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:38,840 The last Buddhist name was Bhargharama Bama, or something. 334 00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:40,360 But, anyway... 335 00:18:40,360 --> 00:18:43,120 Can you tell me how you linked Saddhatessa to Lucan? 336 00:18:43,120 --> 00:18:45,240 How you've realised they're one and the same? 337 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:47,480 I'm just trying to think - it was a long time ago. 338 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:49,440 20, 22 years ago now. 339 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:52,520 SIGHS 340 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:56,120 What happened was, my camper van went down, blew a head gasket, 341 00:18:56,120 --> 00:18:59,080 so, it takes a week to get your motor back, you know, 342 00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:01,280 what do you do? You've just got to hang around. 343 00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:03,200 So I asked around a few people 344 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:05,800 and I ended up renting at his place. 345 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:09,880 The first night I went down to the house, 346 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:14,120 I walked in and he was sitting on the floor in the lounge room 347 00:19:14,120 --> 00:19:15,840 dressed in these Buddhist robes. 348 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:17,680 I could tell that he was English. 349 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:19,680 How do you mean by that? 350 00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:23,040 It...It was an educated English accent. 351 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:25,760 I looked at him. 352 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:28,480 I just knew he was a very suspect character. 353 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:31,320 You could sense it. You could feel it. 354 00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:33,000 Well, I can. You know? 355 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:36,360 Stephen Gillis. 356 00:19:36,360 --> 00:19:41,760 There was an air of, kind of, alternative lifestyle about him. 357 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:47,920 Sparse. He admits he's had problems 358 00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:51,040 fitting into mainstream Perth lifestyle. 359 00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:54,120 Over the following days, wherever I went, 360 00:19:54,120 --> 00:19:56,840 he was there waiting. 361 00:19:56,840 --> 00:19:59,880 He used to go to parties, kept on looking at me all the time, 362 00:19:59,880 --> 00:20:01,560 and I'm looking away and I'm... 363 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:04,560 I could just sense that this guy is getting infatuated with me. 364 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:07,680 He was leading a double life all the time. 365 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:10,040 He'd be a monk in his robes one day, 366 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:12,560 and people would see him, and then they'd see him at a party 367 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:14,960 the next night and he's not in his robes 368 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:17,000 and he's a homosexual trying to get on to men 369 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:18,320 and things like this, you know? 370 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:21,160 What was it exactly that he confessed to you? 371 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:24,040 He used... He was a highly unusual person, you know. 372 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:27,080 He used the words, "People have karma to be repaid." 373 00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:31,120 He said "Stephen, it's your duty to listen to me. 374 00:20:31,120 --> 00:20:32,840 "I want to confess to you. 375 00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:36,360 "Two women back in London, Sandra and Veronica, 376 00:20:36,360 --> 00:20:38,040 "they had karma to be repaid." 377 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:40,920 You know, he was proud about what he'd done. 378 00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:44,000 Like, "I killed Sandra. She had karma to repay. It's her own fault." 379 00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:49,360 Buddhist monk meets random loner, 380 00:20:49,360 --> 00:20:53,080 confesses to murdering somebody in London 381 00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:55,720 and then going on the run for 40 years. 382 00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:57,600 That is quite out there, isn't it? 383 00:20:57,600 --> 00:21:00,840 Yeah, that is, yeah. I mean, you wouldn't do it, would you? 384 00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:02,360 Erm... 385 00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:05,760 Maybe he just took a liking to Stephen 386 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:08,560 and was trying to show off to, sort of... You know 387 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:11,640 I can only think that maybe it was that. Something like that. 388 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:15,880 I just turned around, and I said, "Look, piss off. 389 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:19,120 "Just go down the house and stop this bullshit all the time." 390 00:21:19,120 --> 00:21:22,360 So, he...he looked up at me and he says, "You know too much." 391 00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:26,320 His partner - boyfriend - 392 00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:28,480 he grabbed hold of a piece of wood, 393 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:31,640 about that long, with two four-inch nails sticking out. 394 00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:34,800 And he just come at me. 395 00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:38,600 Put my arm down to protect myself as the swing was coming in 396 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:41,960 and took out halfway through my muscle body here, 397 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:45,440 two four-inch nails that went halfway through all of the tendons. 398 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:49,240 And then the swing come back and whacked me across the head. 399 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:51,840 And I was rolling, I was seeing stars. 400 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:54,960 He had a white shirt on - it was covered in blood. 401 00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:56,760 There was blood everywhere. 402 00:21:56,760 --> 00:21:58,960 And then he just raced at me, 403 00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:01,280 and I'm yelling out at him, "Stop, stop!" 404 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:04,040 He straddled my arms back with his knees, 405 00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:06,160 and just kept strangling and strangling. 406 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:10,480 Saddhatessa has come up with his robes and everything, 407 00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:13,560 yelling out, "Kill him, kill him! He's going to kill you - kill him!" 408 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:18,280 I'm starting to lose consciousness 409 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:21,560 and I could hear in the background this woman screaming. 410 00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:24,440 Saddhatessa's jumped across, trying to pull him off 411 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:26,480 because now there's a witness. 412 00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:32,640 Then the police arrived and took his partner to the police station 413 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:34,520 and took me to the hospital. 414 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:37,440 God, I'm hot. 415 00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:38,520 Fuck! 416 00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:53,320 This is a restraining order. 417 00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:55,960 This one's for sexual harassment, 418 00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:59,960 this one here is sexual and psychopathic intimidation. 419 00:22:59,960 --> 00:23:02,320 And the other one is a violence restraining order. 420 00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:05,720 "Intimidating or behaviour in a manner that is likely 421 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:07,520 "to lead to the breach of the peace." 422 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:10,040 I tried to get him to turn up in court 423 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:11,800 but I could never get him into a courtroom 424 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:13,960 to cross examine him about what happened. 425 00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:16,000 And he keeps changing his name all the time 426 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:18,640 so you're not sure what name to use on the restraining order. 427 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:20,600 Adam Kadmon here. Yeah. 428 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:22,320 I think it was in this one 429 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:24,760 when he changed his name to Christopher Newman. 430 00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:28,040 Christopher Newman. "I'm a new man." 431 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:31,240 It was really weird. 432 00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:35,360 There was one restraining order against Saddhatessa. 433 00:23:35,360 --> 00:23:37,520 The other two were only applications. 434 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:41,840 A couple of years after, they all took off, 435 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:44,640 I thought, "I've got to find out who this Saddhatessa guy is." 436 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:48,280 All I done was just put in a search on the internet - murder, 437 00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:51,600 Sandra and Veronica. Search. 438 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:53,080 Lord Lucan come up. 439 00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:57,560 That whole thing was like being in a psycho movie. 440 00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:01,720 Which is basically why I've become a recluse for the last 20 years. 441 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:23,600 I'm still trying to digest what he said. 442 00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:26,720 I mean, some of it was crazy stuff. 443 00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:30,720 Do you think Stephen could have made all that up? 444 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:32,400 Really? 445 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:35,720 But is there an element of you wanting to believe it all? 446 00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:37,880 I mean, look, you know, 447 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:40,200 he could have just gone onto Google, googled all of that, 448 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:43,400 and then...looking into your mum's murder, 449 00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:46,000 getting bits from here and a bit from there. 450 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:48,320 We don't want to be taken for a couple of mugs. 451 00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:52,280 I'm focusing on the bit that I want to focus on - 452 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:54,360 the confession, which is actually my mother. 453 00:24:55,360 --> 00:24:56,560 I don't know. 454 00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:59,120 There's no point believing anything unless it's true, is there? 455 00:24:59,120 --> 00:25:00,760 Or unless you can prove it... No, but I... 456 00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:03,200 I want you to find the murderer of your mum. 457 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:07,160 But I don't want you to be fed a whole load of, er... 458 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:11,520 Well, we'll just have to dig deep and try and find other people. 459 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:13,280 I'm very cautious. 460 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:23,320 Did he write anything to the court, or did he write anything to you, 461 00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:26,120 or...? I've kept all the letters he sent me. 462 00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:30,880 Would it be possible I could have one or two of these? 463 00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:32,960 Yeah, if you can use them, all the better. 464 00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:44,320 It's terrible writing. It's... 465 00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:47,520 I mean, it's weird that he's written all in capitals. 466 00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:51,120 Of course, if you write in capitals, 467 00:25:51,120 --> 00:25:53,840 then you can disguise your actual real handwriting. 468 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:56,520 "Dear beloved Stephen. 469 00:25:56,520 --> 00:26:00,440 "What can I do to heal and make up for all the... 470 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:04,400 "..all the ma... 471 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:06,880 "All the pain and..." 472 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:10,120 "..and make up for all the pain and hurt that you have been through? 473 00:26:10,120 --> 00:26:13,280 "Sometimes I am feeling so close to you, 474 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:16,680 "as if you are holding me deeply, closely in your arms." 475 00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:18,120 "You want me to come..." 476 00:26:18,120 --> 00:26:19,760 This is very interesting, 477 00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:24,000 "You want me to come clean. I would if I could." 478 00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:29,360 Would he be on the verge of confessing? 479 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:34,680 "You want me to come clean and I would if I could. 480 00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:41,480 "All I want to do is come clean, and I would if I could." 481 00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:45,920 But he can't, can he? 482 00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:00,160 From talking to Stephen, 483 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:04,400 we found out Saddhatessa was operating out of a sanctuary 484 00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:06,400 called Day Wah Jan. 485 00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:11,800 I managed to find the details of a lady who had gone there 486 00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:13,480 with her mother in the '90s. 487 00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:15,360 She sent me a nice email. 488 00:27:15,360 --> 00:27:17,840 This must be the sanctuary. 489 00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:25,080 I'm guessing that that is Elsie 490 00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:26,720 and a picture of her mother. 491 00:27:28,360 --> 00:27:32,520 "Hi. Around 25 years ago, my family knew this man. 492 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:35,480 "He and my mum were quite close. 493 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:42,040 "We would love to talk to you. What day is best for you? 494 00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:44,000 "Thank you. Elsie." 495 00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:49,920 Saddhatessa ran the centre. 496 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:52,640 He was, like, the main head monk at Day Wah Jan. 497 00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:54,480 What was he like? 498 00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:55,720 Hmm. 499 00:27:57,720 --> 00:27:58,840 Different. 500 00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:00,160 He was... 501 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:03,240 He was different. 502 00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:06,960 Posh accent and very commanding of a room. 503 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:09,320 Knew what to say, knew how to say it, 504 00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:10,840 knew how to get you in, 505 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:12,880 knew how to make the eye contact with you 506 00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:15,160 and feel like you're the only person on Earth. 507 00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:19,040 We all got told that he travelled from England 508 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:21,600 all around the world to learn Buddhism. 509 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:26,680 His Buddhist name - Saddhatessa, 510 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:29,680 but his name that we knew of him, 511 00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:32,160 like, his regular name, was Derek Crowther. 512 00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:36,520 And he said he had a family and a past. 513 00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:38,160 He loved kids. 514 00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:41,080 He played the wizard at my sixth birthday party. 515 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:46,640 And that's myself at the front in the white dress. 516 00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:49,640 That's Saddhatessa? Saddhatessa. 517 00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:53,920 Unreal. 518 00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:55,720 And then this one, 519 00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:59,000 this is Saddha and I sitting there. We're playing a game. 520 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:01,880 It was great, it was a beautiful centre. 521 00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:03,840 It was like fairyland there. 522 00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:05,840 And then it all changed. 523 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:10,640 Two Buddhist monks came over from Tibet, 524 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:12,520 the Tibetan Buddhist Society, 525 00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:16,360 and kind of realised that he just wasn't doing the right teachings, 526 00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:18,240 kind of questioned his credentials. 527 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:21,720 They told Mum that he just wasn't a real monk. 528 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:24,480 He was, yeah, fake. Fake monk. 529 00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:27,760 After that, he just disappeared. 530 00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:31,560 Nobody knows if he was alive or...dead. 531 00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:38,320 Very, very strange. 532 00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:40,640 Guru Derek. 533 00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:44,200 Not a proper monk, had a family... 534 00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:47,480 ..and then disappears. 535 00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:59,000 Saddhatessa wasn't easy to find. 536 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:04,560 Glen and I, we were in and out of cafes, bars, 537 00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:06,080 Buddhist markets. 538 00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:11,920 You kind of think, "Oh, what am I doing? 539 00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:14,080 "We're 20 years too late." 540 00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:16,240 The guy with the grey hair? 541 00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:18,600 No, I don't think I've seen someone... 542 00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:21,800 We were wandering around with photos of an old monk 543 00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:24,880 asking youngsters, "Have you seen this man?" 544 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:28,040 Some sort of wizard at a children's party. 545 00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:31,640 I'm an investigative journalist. Am I on the right planet? 546 00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:39,040 I was excited. 547 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:42,840 Is this the person that murdered my mother? 548 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:47,520 We're looking for an Englishman, who was here in the 1980s, '90s. 549 00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:49,160 Ah, you're investigators? 550 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:50,400 Well... 551 00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:52,640 Are you a cop? Not a copper. 552 00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:55,760 I'm a builder, but I am investigating. 553 00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:01,880 This face is familiar. 554 00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:04,160 Kind of monk, like a monk. 555 00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:06,320 It moved something in my brain. 556 00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:08,920 I don't know what he did, why you're looking for him. 557 00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:11,760 Well, we're looking for him because Neil thinks he murdered his mum. 558 00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:13,000 Whoa! 559 00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:16,800 How old was your mother? 560 00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:18,120 She was 29. 561 00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:19,280 Oh, my God. 562 00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:24,600 But let me tell you something - if someone doesn't want to 563 00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:28,040 be found here in Australia, you won't find him. Why? 564 00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:29,600 Australia is so vast. 565 00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:32,440 1,200 square kilometres per person. 566 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:34,920 Authorities, they don't make checks. 567 00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:36,480 Who's going to know you? 568 00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:39,200 From one town to another, 569 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:42,600 you can change names, appearance and everything. 570 00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:44,680 They don't know any better. 571 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:50,080 If you want to catch a criminal, you've gotta think like a criminal. 572 00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:54,200 Try to understand - what would you do? 573 00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:55,520 Where would you go? 574 00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:57,320 How you would behave? 575 00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:00,240 If I would have done something bad, 576 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:04,240 I would be the best person where I am hiding. 577 00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:07,920 Doing something for the community. 578 00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:10,440 Hiding in plain sight, 579 00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:12,400 so everybody will love me 580 00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:15,240 or everybody would say that I'm a good man. 581 00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:20,200 I hope you catch him, my friend. 582 00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:21,800 I hope you do. Yeah. 583 00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:24,840 That was good. 584 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:29,000 So being a Buddhist monk is a brilliant disguise. 585 00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:34,840 If Lucan had become a Buddhist monk, you need to carry that on. 586 00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:38,920 Let's try "Buddhist retreat, Perth". 587 00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:46,880 So, I just assumed that he'd still be a Buddhist monk doing good. 588 00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:50,720 There's tonnes and tonnes of Buddhist websites. 589 00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:54,240 I just started wading through as many as I could. 590 00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:05,560 # This is the age of prophecy. # 591 00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:08,040 Their music's quite relaxing, isn't it? 592 00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:12,840 I came across one particularly well-made website... 593 00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:16,480 # The revelation... # 594 00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:19,320 ..showing some quite strange activities. 595 00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:24,840 But also, the video looked like some sort of Buddhist garden party. 596 00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:26,640 # And I am you... # 597 00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:28,280 I was fascinated 598 00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:31,680 because there was an old man in a purple shirt 599 00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:33,960 serving himself lunch. 600 00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:40,640 Oh, I see an old man.... 601 00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:46,160 ..with a long face. 602 00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:49,560 Grey beard. 603 00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:53,480 Oh, he's even got a waistcoat on. 604 00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:56,400 Look. 605 00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:59,840 He's serving himself yoghurt with his left hand. 606 00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:02,400 What's the significance of that? 607 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:05,400 Lucan was a left-handed card player. 608 00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:17,840 The old man looked very, very similar 609 00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:20,520 to the old man in the photos we'd collected. 610 00:34:23,720 --> 00:34:25,400 God, this could be him. 611 00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:27,760 Just, all...identical. 612 00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:32,120 So, what have we got? 613 00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:34,160 He seems to like coleslaw. 614 00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:37,160 Lucan played cards with his left hand. 615 00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:39,840 This man's serving himself with his left hand. 616 00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:41,400 He might have hurt his right hand. 617 00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:44,040 His right hand might be holding an apple, we don't know. 618 00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:47,200 But for Neil, you know, full throttle, boom. 619 00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:53,520 The video was on a website from a guy called Darpan. 620 00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:58,160 I managed to get his email address off his website. 621 00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:03,880 I had to get in contact, but I had a big problem. 622 00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:09,000 I couldn't be me, Neil Berriman. 623 00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:12,120 I'd been on TV. 624 00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:16,240 I'm the son of Sandra Rivett. 625 00:35:16,240 --> 00:35:19,560 I personally know that the convenient drowning of Lord Lucan 626 00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:20,840 is not true. 627 00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:22,640 SHUTTERS CLICK 628 00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:26,240 Anybody, including Lucan, could have googled me. 629 00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:32,520 To catch a criminal, you have to think like a criminal. 630 00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:38,120 So, I had to create a story and go undercover. 631 00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:46,040 I had to pretend that...I was a Buddhist. 632 00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:50,280 I needed a name. 633 00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:54,720 What better than being Bezza Dugal? 634 00:35:54,720 --> 00:35:57,960 I thought, "Bezza Dugal - that's...that's excellent." 635 00:35:57,960 --> 00:35:59,720 Where did you get "Bezza Dugal from? 636 00:35:59,720 --> 00:36:02,160 Dugal, um, yeah... 637 00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:05,560 Yeah. Um... 638 00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:07,320 Dugal was my best friend. 639 00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:09,520 He's over there. 640 00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:15,680 And Bezza was my nickname when I was at school - basically from Berriman. 641 00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:18,760 So, Bezza Dugal - little bit hippy, little bit out there. 642 00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:21,040 Is it? I think so. 643 00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:26,920 I had to iron out how I'd met Saddhatessa. 644 00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:32,040 Stephen had told me that Saddhatessa used to drink in a coffee shop 645 00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:34,960 in Perth, so I came up with this story 646 00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:39,720 of me going into this coffee shop that I've never been into before 647 00:36:39,720 --> 00:36:43,120 and having a nervous breakdown 648 00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:45,280 in...in the coffee shop. 649 00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:51,000 Subject - Nice old man. 650 00:36:52,240 --> 00:36:53,920 "Dear Darpan..." 651 00:36:56,400 --> 00:37:01,920 I wrote that Saddhatessa was there and sorted out my mental state. 652 00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:04,720 I was only in there for about an hour, 653 00:37:04,720 --> 00:37:11,280 but Bezza was very grateful for what happened and I wanted to thank him. 654 00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:16,680 "He is...in your home video. 655 00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:20,200 "Purple shirt. 656 00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:25,440 "If he is alive, 657 00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:26,800 "he would be... 658 00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:41,800 "..82. 659 00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:46,160 "Please help. 660 00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:47,880 "Take care. 661 00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:53,160 "Bezza." 662 00:37:56,240 --> 00:37:57,680 Send. 663 00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:13,240 Neil went off on a strategy which I have no involvement in. 664 00:38:13,240 --> 00:38:17,080 So, he didn't ask your advice? Didn't tell you he was doing it? 665 00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:19,080 No, he went rogue a bit. 666 00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:21,560 Can I have a cup of tea and a still water, please? 667 00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:22,920 What cup of tea would you like? 668 00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:24,800 Just a normal cup of tea with some... 669 00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:27,040 Creates a complete new identity, 670 00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:28,800 false memories. 671 00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:31,600 I mean, talk about creative licence. 672 00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:35,760 But that was it. You can't take it back, once you've done it, 673 00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:38,360 and he'd done it already - he'd created Bezza Dugal 674 00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:40,880 and it was under way, so things were happening. 675 00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:44,800 "Hi, Bezza, his name is Vajra Sambava. 676 00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:47,160 "He lives in Brisbane, Australia. 677 00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:48,840 "He's 82 and chipper." 678 00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:50,320 He's alive. 679 00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:52,440 Ah, you... I couldn't... 680 00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:59,080 So, this old man's not dead, but I still don't know who he is. 681 00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:02,040 But he's alive. 682 00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:06,120 If he'd come back and, "I'm really sorry, he died three years ago," 683 00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:07,800 then what would I have done? 684 00:39:09,240 --> 00:39:10,520 Yeah, what WOULD you have done? 685 00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:12,920 I don't know. I would have been devastated. 686 00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:16,280 I mean, that being... That was just like a lottery, isn't it? 687 00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:19,280 It's a 50/50. The email was... It's a 50/50. 688 00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:21,120 It's like tossing a coin. 689 00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:23,200 Dead or alive, dead or alive, dead or alive. 690 00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:24,720 And he's alive. 691 00:39:24,720 --> 00:39:26,640 It's like everything's meant to be. 692 00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:33,280 We knew that we were getting closer... 693 00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:38,160 ..so I said to Glen, "Let's get on the road to Brisbane." 694 00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:44,120 Before we set off, the chancer in me, 695 00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:46,600 I thought I would just push it one step further. 696 00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:51,080 I emailed Darpan again, explaining to him 697 00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:55,240 that I wanted to send the nice old man a birthday card. 698 00:39:55,240 --> 00:39:59,840 His birthday, I wrote 18th of December. 699 00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:02,800 And I knew that Lucan's birthday was the 18th. 700 00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:06,760 Morning. Morning, how are you going? May I have two coffees? 701 00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:09,080 Of course, and what was your name, please? It's Neil. 702 00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:12,640 Straight away, Darpan wrote back. 703 00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:15,880 And this, it's...it's...incredible. 704 00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:20,720 "I told Vajra about your inquiry and he was happy to hear about you. 705 00:40:20,720 --> 00:40:24,640 "That was very thoughtful of you to remember his birthday. 706 00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:26,200 "Bless. Darpan." 707 00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:27,400 Wow. 708 00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:32,560 It's worked a treat, absolute treat. 709 00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:34,560 It couldn't have gone any better. 710 00:40:36,720 --> 00:40:38,200 The whole Bezza thing... 711 00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:41,320 Mm. 712 00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:46,080 I mean, you know, Neil just created Bezza Dugal 713 00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:48,880 as if he was just spat out of Mount Doom. 714 00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:50,920 CHUCKLES 715 00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:52,160 Yeah. 716 00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:55,600 I'm not a control freak, but I like to plan things. 717 00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:58,480 This is more my area of expertise. 718 00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:00,280 I've done 30 years of this sort of stuff. 719 00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:01,800 But, yeah, well he doesn't listen. 720 00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:04,120 He's always, 24/7, thinking about it. 721 00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:05,360 It drives you mad. 722 00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:08,760 To be fair, though, it is your expertise, 723 00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:11,440 but if you went by the book and you did it how you were trained to, 724 00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:13,880 then you wouldn't be creating a fake ID 725 00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:16,560 and infiltrating a Buddhist commune. No. 726 00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:21,160 God, I know, it takes ages, doesn't it? If you jump in, I'll drive. 727 00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:23,680 Yeah, OK. So you hold it for me. What, was there a queue? 728 00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:24,960 A little one. 729 00:41:29,240 --> 00:41:32,000 So, we are off to Brisbane. 730 00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:35,280 It's a five-and-half-hour flight, on the other side of the country. 731 00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:55,520 We took a place in the hills outside Brisbane. 732 00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:00,200 It's an interesting place. I think Glen had booked it. 733 00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:02,280 It's got no windows. 734 00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:07,520 It's like a cow shed with the front missing. 735 00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:09,080 I don't mind this. 736 00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:10,200 God. 737 00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:11,800 And an outside toilet! 738 00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:13,560 I think it's nice. It's rustic. 739 00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:20,720 Darpan said the old man had a carer. 740 00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:25,120 You can reach him through WhatsApp, and here's his number. 741 00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:27,760 So, OK, WhatsApp. 742 00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:29,280 I need a photograph 743 00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:31,720 for Bezza Dugal's WhatsApp profile. 744 00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:43,200 And it couldn't be me - people would potentially recognise me. 745 00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:45,760 But I could use my mate Dugal's. 746 00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:56,000 So, I wrote to the carer. 747 00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:58,000 "My name is Bezza Dugal. 748 00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:02,520 "I knew the nice old man in Perth in a coffee shop in 2002. 749 00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:05,400 "I would like to make contact. 750 00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:07,440 "Bless. 751 00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:08,480 "Bezza." 752 00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:11,840 Send. 753 00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:11,840 PHONE CHIMES 754 00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:12,880 Good luck, Bezza. 755 00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:20,120 Brisbane. Population, 2.5 million. 756 00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:25,800 Wherever he was, we needed to be ready. 757 00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:27,160 BEEP 758 00:43:27,160 --> 00:43:28,680 Armed. 759 00:43:29,720 --> 00:43:31,200 Three yellow lights. 760 00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:32,800 Recording. 761 00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:39,400 I brought out my boys' toys. 762 00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:42,920 I was desperate to use them. 763 00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:49,640 The tech side is my responsibility. 764 00:43:49,640 --> 00:43:54,040 I'm a bit old in the tooth for it, to be honest, but, um... 765 00:43:54,040 --> 00:43:56,600 Max is 45 minutes on these and then you're done, 766 00:43:56,600 --> 00:43:58,360 so you've got to get in and out. 767 00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:12,880 For Neil, he's obviously stressed about this whole endeavour 768 00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:15,400 and is very emotionally invested. 769 00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:19,240 THUNDER RUMBLES 770 00:44:19,240 --> 00:44:21,840 Do you ever see that getting in the way? 771 00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:23,720 It does get in the way, 772 00:44:23,720 --> 00:44:27,800 but at the same time, he does understand the boundaries. 773 00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:30,520 You know, as long as he keeps cool, 774 00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:33,160 as long as he keeps calm and doesn't do anything irrational 775 00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:35,920 or stupid, great. 776 00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:37,400 ALERT PINGS 777 00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:38,880 We're on. 778 00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:40,400 Mitchelton. 779 00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:43,320 How do you spell it? M-I-T-C-H... 780 00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:47,160 Yeah. ...E-L-T-O-N. 781 00:44:48,520 --> 00:44:49,960 Queensland. 782 00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:52,720 I've got a message from the old man's carer. 783 00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:57,840 Through all this lying and deceit, I now have an address. 784 00:44:57,840 --> 00:44:59,120 There he is, there. 785 00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:01,560 Here we go. 786 00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:03,000 Look at the size of them! 787 00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:05,800 It's a big house, three layers, 788 00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:10,800 on quite a posh, wide Queensland avenue on the outskirts of Brisbane. 789 00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:14,760 Right, so from Landsborough, Queensland to Mitchelton, 790 00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:16,680 4053, 791 00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:18,640 I reckon we should get the train. 792 00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:22,160 TANNOY ANNOUNCEMENT 793 00:45:32,520 --> 00:45:35,720 It's all about relaxed - being relaxed, confident. 794 00:45:35,720 --> 00:45:37,200 Casual. 795 00:45:41,080 --> 00:45:43,360 The next station is Wilston. 796 00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:47,880 They didn't know that we were coming. 797 00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:50,440 We set off... 798 00:45:51,600 --> 00:45:53,240 ..and then realised there was a problem. 799 00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:58,760 I couldn't be Bezza Dugal because... 800 00:45:58,760 --> 00:46:00,560 ..I didn't look like Bezza Dugal, 801 00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:04,720 because I'd already sent a picture on of Bezza Dugal. 802 00:46:04,720 --> 00:46:06,040 Your friend Dugal. 803 00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:09,000 Yeah, my... Well, actually, my...my friend Dugal. 804 00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:11,120 So they would have recognised me 805 00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:14,240 of not being somebody with white hair and a beard, 806 00:46:14,240 --> 00:46:15,360 Two more stops. 807 00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:16,800 The next station is Mitchelton. 808 00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:18,320 Oh, God. 809 00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:20,840 I said to Glen, "What are we going to do?" 810 00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:22,640 He says, "I don't know." 811 00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:25,480 I said, "The only thing that I can think of doing 812 00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:28,120 "is Bezza Dugal's dead." 813 00:46:30,920 --> 00:46:33,320 The story that Neil concocted, 814 00:46:33,320 --> 00:46:35,880 we were there to deliver some bad news. 815 00:46:37,080 --> 00:46:38,880 We're friends of Bezza Dugal, 816 00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:42,720 we'd been asked by the family to say thank you to the old man 817 00:46:42,720 --> 00:46:45,920 for his emotional support that he'd given to him 818 00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:49,480 all those years before in the coffee shop at Perth. 819 00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:50,960 This is us. 820 00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:52,000 We're here. 821 00:46:53,920 --> 00:46:55,280 Mitchelton Station. 822 00:46:55,280 --> 00:46:57,080 Oh, God. What ARE we doing? 823 00:46:58,680 --> 00:46:59,920 Press the button. 824 00:46:59,920 --> 00:47:02,480 Oh, shit. Hang on, it's over here! 825 00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:04,240 Oh, I see, yeah, yeah. 826 00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:12,360 We were at a point where I was absolutely shitting myself now. 827 00:47:12,360 --> 00:47:14,560 Hold it up here. That's it. 828 00:47:16,240 --> 00:47:19,200 One, two, three. 829 00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:20,440 BEEP 830 00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:22,560 There you go, see that? See the light? 831 00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:25,240 Well, everything was riding on those glasses. 832 00:47:25,240 --> 00:47:27,760 Well, let's just get past the door knocker... Yeah, OK. 833 00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:30,360 Stop getting on at me. OK, um... 834 00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:31,880 OK, let's go. I'll follow you. 835 00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:33,600 Let's go. Let's do it, then. 836 00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:36,200 NEIL EXHALES 837 00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:37,680 Oh, God. 838 00:47:48,720 --> 00:47:50,480 How are you? Hello, boy. 839 00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:54,160 All right, let's just do it. 840 00:47:54,160 --> 00:47:56,560 Walking towards the house... 841 00:47:58,600 --> 00:47:59,640 ..it hits me. 842 00:48:02,840 --> 00:48:06,560 Do you actually realise, Neil, that maybe we've tracked 843 00:48:06,560 --> 00:48:10,240 somebody down that's one of the biggest stories ever? 844 00:48:11,480 --> 00:48:13,520 The person that murdered my mother. 845 00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:17,200 Panic struck. 846 00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:20,400 I said, "Look, I'm telling you now, I'm not going in that house." 847 00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:23,360 Were you worried about what he might do? 848 00:48:23,360 --> 00:48:25,920 Not really, no, because I knew he was old. 849 00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:28,040 Were you worried about what you might do? 850 00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:31,720 It went through my mind. 851 00:48:33,280 --> 00:48:35,400 Come on, Neil. Let's just do it. 852 00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:37,640 You'll be fine. 853 00:48:37,640 --> 00:48:41,200 You know, and your heart is pounding away at a rate of knots. 854 00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:45,360 And I knew he was getting quite cross. 855 00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:48,440 "You've got to go in, if they ask you in. You've got to go in. 856 00:48:48,440 --> 00:48:50,560 "Come on, Neil, you can do it. You can do it. 857 00:48:51,600 --> 00:48:53,040 "Come on, come on! 858 00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:54,760 "Come on, it's only over there." 859 00:48:56,800 --> 00:48:58,360 I'm glad Glen was with me. 860 00:49:00,520 --> 00:49:03,920 He's my mate, he's my partner in crime. 861 00:49:03,920 --> 00:49:05,880 I think this is the one. 862 00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:08,040 There's your porch, there you go. Knock on the door. 863 00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:14,160 HE KNOCKS 864 00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:16,160 BELL RINGS 865 00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:25,480 The strange thing is that, when we got to the door, 866 00:49:25,480 --> 00:49:27,520 I changed. 867 00:49:29,360 --> 00:49:31,000 I want this. 868 00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:32,600 Around this way. 869 00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:36,920 Hello? All right? 870 00:49:38,240 --> 00:49:40,120 The carer came down the stairs. 871 00:49:43,120 --> 00:49:45,600 I knew that I had to be somebody else, 872 00:49:45,600 --> 00:49:47,560 but I didn't think of a name 873 00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:50,480 until I was standing at the bottom of the stairs 874 00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:52,080 when the carer came down, 875 00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:54,560 and then I just said, "I'm Pete." 876 00:49:54,560 --> 00:49:56,400 I'm...I'm Pete, that's Glen. 877 00:49:56,400 --> 00:49:57,760 Nice to meet you. How're you doing? 878 00:49:57,760 --> 00:49:59,320 And who was Glen? Glen. 879 00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:02,280 I'm a friend of Dugal's. 880 00:50:03,400 --> 00:50:05,560 Yes. Bezza Dugal? Yes, Bezza Dugal. Bezza. 881 00:50:05,560 --> 00:50:07,080 And, um... Yes. 882 00:50:07,080 --> 00:50:09,240 ..we're here on business... Yes. 883 00:50:09,240 --> 00:50:10,640 ..and we've got to go back literally 884 00:50:10,640 --> 00:50:12,440 in sort of like ten minutes. 885 00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:15,360 Well, come on, come on. And, um... 886 00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:21,680 The carer referred to the old man as Christopher. 887 00:50:21,680 --> 00:50:25,080 And a quick dive into the property records 888 00:50:25,080 --> 00:50:28,080 showed that the place was rented by a Christopher Bell. 889 00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:30,960 Another identity. 890 00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:45,800 Shall I call him Vajra or Chris? Vajra? 891 00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:47,480 Chris. Chris? 892 00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:51,680 The carer said Christopher was in his office, 893 00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:52,960 "I'll go and get him." 894 00:50:55,320 --> 00:50:57,520 And then out of this door... 895 00:50:59,120 --> 00:51:01,320 ..just comes this... 896 00:51:01,320 --> 00:51:02,640 ..old man. 897 00:51:05,680 --> 00:51:09,560 Vajra, or Christopher. And I remember Glen's name. 898 00:51:09,560 --> 00:51:13,200 I'm Pete. And Pete, yes. Perfect. Hello. 899 00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:14,600 Nice to meet you. 900 00:51:14,600 --> 00:51:16,040 Vajra, nice to meet you. 901 00:51:16,040 --> 00:51:17,560 Nice to meet you. 902 00:51:18,720 --> 00:51:20,680 Um, we're here on business. 903 00:51:20,680 --> 00:51:22,040 Yes. 904 00:51:22,040 --> 00:51:24,400 And, um, Bezza Dugal...? 905 00:51:24,400 --> 00:51:27,160 You've been in touch with my friend Bezza Dugal? 906 00:51:27,160 --> 00:51:30,840 Yes. Um... I'll be able to find you that picture of him... 907 00:51:30,840 --> 00:51:32,080 Yes. 908 00:51:32,080 --> 00:51:34,640 VOICE-OVER: I-I shook his hand. 909 00:51:35,960 --> 00:51:38,680 I'm Pete, but inside I'm Neil. 910 00:51:40,040 --> 00:51:42,840 And I kept thinking, "Right, OK, this is means to an end. 911 00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:44,120 "A means to an end." 912 00:51:44,120 --> 00:51:47,120 So, I had to explain to them that Bezza Dugal had... 913 00:51:47,120 --> 00:51:48,240 Was...Was dead. 914 00:51:48,240 --> 00:51:49,760 Yes, there he is, there. 915 00:51:49,760 --> 00:51:51,160 OK, that... 916 00:51:49,760 --> 00:51:51,160 SHUTTER CLICKS 917 00:51:51,160 --> 00:51:53,480 That's the picture, obviously, you've seen... 918 00:52:03,640 --> 00:52:06,360 And you're English, we were told, by Bezza. 919 00:52:08,360 --> 00:52:10,200 Where from? From...? 920 00:52:12,240 --> 00:52:14,520 You're from Belgravia, aren't you? London. 921 00:52:14,520 --> 00:52:16,920 You used to live in Belgravia, I think Dugal told me. 922 00:52:23,880 --> 00:52:26,840 He'd been brought up by the Theosophical movement. 923 00:52:26,840 --> 00:52:28,520 You couldn't make it up. 924 00:52:29,680 --> 00:52:32,280 We can match that with Hugh Bingham, 925 00:52:32,280 --> 00:52:35,440 who was in the Theosophical Society in South Africa, 926 00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:36,840 his own brother. 927 00:52:36,840 --> 00:52:38,400 CHUCKLING 928 00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:40,160 That's a beautiful photo. 929 00:52:41,480 --> 00:52:43,160 He was quite relaxed. 930 00:52:43,160 --> 00:52:45,480 He seemed happy to have his photo taken. 931 00:52:45,480 --> 00:52:47,360 These phones are amazing these days. 932 00:52:49,520 --> 00:52:52,160 It was quite weird. 933 00:52:52,160 --> 00:52:57,760 The old man, he was on the verge of opening up about his past. 934 00:52:57,760 --> 00:52:59,800 It was like... 935 00:52:59,800 --> 00:53:03,560 ..two people had come from England and he was excited. 936 00:53:09,120 --> 00:53:10,520 Princess Margaret? 937 00:53:13,800 --> 00:53:16,160 He knew Princess Margaret. 938 00:53:16,160 --> 00:53:18,800 And we knew that Lucan mixed in the same 939 00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:21,320 social circles as Princess Margaret. 940 00:53:27,240 --> 00:53:28,640 Oh, really? 941 00:53:30,760 --> 00:53:32,480 He said that he, as a child, 942 00:53:32,480 --> 00:53:34,520 used to go to the kitchens, 943 00:53:34,520 --> 00:53:36,440 and he knew the Princesses, 944 00:53:36,440 --> 00:53:38,840 and Margaret particularly well. 945 00:53:38,840 --> 00:53:40,920 He could conceivably have met her. 946 00:53:40,920 --> 00:53:42,440 It's possible, yes. 947 00:53:42,440 --> 00:53:44,680 But would he have been allowed in the kitchens 948 00:53:44,680 --> 00:53:47,600 at Buckingham Palace when his father was working there? 949 00:53:47,600 --> 00:53:50,800 Would Princess Margaret have been down in the kitchens, 950 00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:54,640 having such a great time with the son of the baker's hand? 951 00:53:55,880 --> 00:53:56,920 Unlikely. 952 00:53:59,160 --> 00:54:01,560 Was she? Oh, you know... 953 00:54:03,160 --> 00:54:04,600 LAUGHTER 954 00:54:06,000 --> 00:54:08,040 You can only push your luck for so long. 955 00:54:09,600 --> 00:54:12,280 Neil's fuse was beginning to burn down. 956 00:54:12,280 --> 00:54:16,760 The whole conversation I wanted to turn 957 00:54:16,760 --> 00:54:18,400 into, actually, 958 00:54:18,400 --> 00:54:22,240 "You bastard. I know you're Lord Lucan." 959 00:54:24,480 --> 00:54:27,360 Anger leads to...mistakes. 960 00:54:30,480 --> 00:54:31,840 Oh, yeah... 961 00:54:34,560 --> 00:54:36,560 I called him Neil. 962 00:54:36,560 --> 00:54:38,000 He's just called me Neil. 963 00:54:38,000 --> 00:54:40,240 I just want to say, it's been a pleasure meeting you. 964 00:54:40,240 --> 00:54:41,640 Thank you. 965 00:54:41,640 --> 00:54:43,400 Nobody noticed. 966 00:54:45,040 --> 00:54:47,120 I want him out. He's talking about cards, 967 00:54:47,120 --> 00:54:50,400 he's becoming a loose cannon, let's get out. 968 00:54:50,400 --> 00:54:52,800 I would have taken it further if it wasn't for Glen. 969 00:54:52,800 --> 00:54:54,160 Thank you for your time. 970 00:54:54,160 --> 00:54:56,560 Bye-bye. Thank you, gentlemen. Bye-bye. 971 00:54:56,560 --> 00:54:58,920 Take care. Safe journey to you. And you. Take care. 972 00:55:03,400 --> 00:55:07,000 We're trying to solve Britain's biggest murder mystery. 973 00:55:09,280 --> 00:55:11,480 No-one finds Lord Lucan. 974 00:55:11,480 --> 00:55:12,880 So, how do you feel? 975 00:55:12,880 --> 00:55:14,880 I'd fucking murder him, wouldn't you? 976 00:55:17,600 --> 00:55:20,360 This path has been littered with skeletons 977 00:55:20,360 --> 00:55:23,640 of my journalistic colleagues for decades before me. 978 00:55:23,640 --> 00:55:25,960 Knows Princess Margaret really well? 979 00:55:25,960 --> 00:55:28,760 Do you think it's him? Of course it is. 980 00:55:28,760 --> 00:55:30,280 You're sure, now? 981 00:55:30,280 --> 00:55:31,800 In a million years. 982 00:55:31,800 --> 00:55:34,000 Posh accent, Belgravia. 983 00:55:36,000 --> 00:55:39,400 No-one goes wandering into an old man's house in Brisbane 984 00:55:39,400 --> 00:55:44,200 and finds the man hunted by so many people for so many years. 985 00:55:45,920 --> 00:55:47,920 It can't be him, 986 00:55:47,920 --> 00:55:49,240 can it? 987 00:55:51,600 --> 00:55:53,880 English, walks like a toff. 988 00:55:53,880 --> 00:55:55,880 Arms behind his back. 989 00:55:58,720 --> 00:56:01,640 He's the same age as Lucan, 990 00:56:01,640 --> 00:56:03,160 and the same birthday. 991 00:56:08,280 --> 00:56:12,520 The Interpol arrest warrant states that he's got blue eyes. 992 00:56:12,520 --> 00:56:14,520 This man has blue eyes. 993 00:56:14,520 --> 00:56:17,400 Do you think there is a chance that he is still alive? 994 00:56:17,400 --> 00:56:18,760 I hope he is. 995 00:56:18,760 --> 00:56:20,720 Saddhatessa, Vajra... 996 00:56:20,720 --> 00:56:22,920 He can be anywhere, I just don't know. 997 00:56:22,920 --> 00:56:26,560 ..Derek Crowther, Adam Kadmon, which means "new man". 998 00:56:26,560 --> 00:56:28,600 Do you think he's altered his appearance at all? 999 00:56:28,600 --> 00:56:30,440 Again, I don't know. 1000 00:56:30,440 --> 00:56:33,040 Christopher Newman. Literally, "new man". 1001 00:56:33,040 --> 00:56:35,400 And now Christopher Bell. 1002 00:56:37,080 --> 00:56:39,800 He writes to Stephen, "You want me to come clean. 1003 00:56:39,800 --> 00:56:41,600 "I would if I could." 1004 00:56:41,600 --> 00:56:43,680 He writes in capitals. 1005 00:56:44,880 --> 00:56:48,400 Elsie said that he talked about having a family back in London. 1006 00:56:52,640 --> 00:56:54,200 Comes from Belgravia, 1007 00:56:54,200 --> 00:56:55,440 knew Princess Margaret, 1008 00:56:55,440 --> 00:56:57,080 Theosophical Society. 1009 00:56:59,160 --> 00:57:03,360 There's roughly 35,000 Theosophists in the whole world. 1010 00:57:03,360 --> 00:57:05,800 I have done the maths. 1011 00:57:05,800 --> 00:57:10,560 The chances of bumping into another Theosophist is one in 228,000. 1012 00:57:19,280 --> 00:57:22,000 That's Lucan. Course that's Lucan, all day long. 1013 00:57:25,760 --> 00:57:28,040 Lord Lucan is still alive 1014 00:57:28,040 --> 00:57:31,600 and living in a Buddhist monastery... 1015 00:57:33,520 --> 00:57:37,600 You can see there, the nick in exactly the same place. 1016 00:57:40,200 --> 00:57:42,520 Does this guy know he's the chief suspect? 1017 00:57:43,960 --> 00:57:46,200 Who are they claiming this person is? 1018 00:57:46,200 --> 00:57:47,280 Lord Lucan. 1019 00:57:47,280 --> 00:57:48,960 Oh, no, no! 1020 00:57:48,960 --> 00:57:51,320 No, it's not my friend, Lucky. 1021 00:57:51,320 --> 00:57:52,760 We need something else. 1022 00:57:52,760 --> 00:57:55,040 At this precise moment, 1023 00:57:55,040 --> 00:57:57,280 I don't know what that is. 122753

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