Original subtitles

[narrator] This week on Crimefeed...

A mother accused of the unthinkable.

Murdering her three little kids.

Will she face consequences or is postpartum the real killer?

And a man found dead in an apartment allegedly used for sex.

Police say his husband's version of events just don't add up.

And the Tex McIver case.

Is this lawyer a victim of circumstance

or the cunning killer of his wife?

All this week on Crimefeedwith Nancy Grace,

private investigator, Derrick Levasseur

and investigative journalist, Mara S. Campo.

Good evening, I'm Nancy Grace, this is Crimefeed. Thank you for being with us.

Those stories in a moment, but first,

breaking out of Idaho and the slayings of four beautiful university students

in their own beds.

The off-campus rental where suspect Bryan Kohberger

allegedly murders four students last year

set to be demolished in just weeks.

Kohberger's defense team now granted access to the house

before the structure is destroyed.

November 13th, 2022, police say Kohberger stabs

Kaylee Goncalves, Maddie Mogen, Xana Kernodle

and Ethan Chapin dead in the six-bedroom home.

Two other roommates, Dylan Mortensen and Bethany Funke

in the home of time of the murders but miraculously survive.

And now, with the university set to demolish the house

there's plenty of debate, plenty of emotion on both sides.

Some of the devastated family members of victims

were hoping to wait till after Kohberger's trial

but the university president says it's time to remove it

and allow the community to heal.

You know, I understand the whole desire for healing, uh, but,

my concern is for the ultimate trial.

That's what I feel has to be safeguarded now.

And without the home there

there's no way to go back there for possible evidence.

Is there any? Probably not. They probably got it all.

-But what if the jury wants to see the scene? -That's it right there.

And I... listen, we can get into it. We don't have enough time here.

But the college wanting to demolish the house,

there's other things at play there.

It's an eyesore for them, I get that. But I agree with you 100%.

They can do all the 3D renderings they want

but having the jury being able to go back there at night

and get the perspective from the surviving witness,

there's nothing... there's no substitute for that.

I think it's a mistake to demolish the house before the trial.

Well, and I think the question is really, ultimately, one of timing, right?

We all understand why the community and especially, the families of the victims

want that house gone, but why does it have to be done now?

It could be done later, it could be done after trial

when they're certain that they're not going to need to revisit it.

So, I think it's really a question of timing.

[Nancy] But in the big scheme it's actually very rare

that the jury leaves the confines of the courthouseand goes to the scene.

We just hear about it because it happens more in high profile cases.

So, there's little likelihood that's gonna happen

but still, I would not risk a potential true verdict.

Now, to a parent's worst nightmare come true.

Imagine picking up dinner for your family and coming home

to find your children dead at the hands of your own spouse.

The disturbing case of Lindsay Clancy,

the Massachusetts mother accused of strangling her own children to death.

She's pleading not guilty.

Is it really possible her postpartum depression

made her do the unthinkable? Mara?

This is truly a heartbreaking story, Nancy.

The former nurse and mother of three, Lindsay Clancy

has been charged with strangling her children

before attempting to take her own life.

But if proven true, what could've caused her to do it?

Let's take a look.

[narrator] It was only after police initially responded

to a woman jumping out of her bedroom window

in Duxbury, Massachusetts on January 24th, 2023,

that they learned the grim extent of what happened.

In the basement two of her children,

5-year-old Cora and 3-year-old Dawson laid dead by strangulation.

Her 7-month-old son, Callan, died at the hospital three days later.

Lindsay Clancy had been described by friends and family

as a loving, devoted mother.

She even worked as a labor and delivery nurse.

For the mother, you can start forming a routine with your baby.

You learn to sleep in chunks as your baby naps.

You have less anxiety about your baby being out of your sight.

[narrator] But Clancy had been suffering from severe postpartum depression.

She mentioned thoughts of harming herself and the children

to her husband in December, 2022,

before checking herself into a mental health hospital on New Year's Day.

She was discharged a week later

and allegedly killed her children later that month.

She's been charged with three counts each of murder and strangulation.

Her defense arguing she suffered from postpartum psychosis

and over-medication,

while the prosecution arguing she is responsible for her actions.

The defendant is a danger to herself and others. She planned these murders.

Gave herself the time and privacy needed to commit the murders,

and then she strangled each child

in the place where they should've felt the safest.

At home, with their mom.

Lindsay Clancy is paralyzed from the waist down after her jump from the bedroom window.

Her latest court hearing in November was held in a conference room

inside Duxbury Hospital

that's where she's been since May. Nancy?

Well, I've gotta tell you I understand the theory of postpartum depression,

uh, but, in order for her to walk on these charges

it must rise to the level of insanity.

I really wanna focus on the children 'cause they're the victims here.

And when you look at premeditation and totality

there's a lot of circumstantial evidence here that suggests

Lindsay was aware of what was going on with her thoughts or feelings

and maybe an indication that she was planning this out before it happened.

As we're gonna see here, we might have some clips of it,

she searched ways to kill on her phone, on her app she was looking that up.

She searched how to treat a sociopath, which to me suggests

that she may have an understanding of the thoughts she was feeling,

a consciousness, if you will.

And then you look at the day in question, like you said the maps.

And also, there's a moment where Patrick calls her while he's out

and he calls her about a specific medication,

and during that call she doesn't pick up

but she calls back and according to Patrick, she sounds busy.

To me, that sounds like someone who's aware of what they're doing.

She had enough consciousness to call him back and she sounded fine.

I don't know. There's a lot there, Mara.

We talked about it a little bit.

-You have a different opinion. -[Mara] Yeah, there's no question

that there's a lot of evidence that suggest that she may have planned this

and she had an awareness of what was right and what was wrong.

So, I think, Nancy, you're right.

When it comes to the legal definition of insanity

I don't think that this meets it.

But we cannot ignore the fact that this woman was very, very sick

and she was desperately trying to get help.

How do we know that?

She told her husband that she was having these terrible thoughts

about harming herself and the children.

Not an easy thing to admit.

She had visited two psychiatrists.

She had been prescribed 13 medications and she was taking her medicine.

She checked into inpatient treatment

for her mental health issues for five days.

So, this is someone who desperately needed help.

So, the question here is does she belong in prison

or does she belong in a hospital?

And she... she may belong in prison according to the law

but does the law need to make more allowances

for not just postpartum depression

but in this case, it's alleged that she had postpartum psychosis,

which is very different, much more rare and much more severe.

[Nancy] You know, I got another issue, guys.

Have you seen, I had to make a flowchart

for all the meds the various doctors had her on.

Ambien, Klonopin, Valium, Prozac,

Lamictal, Ativan, Remeron and Seroquel and trazodone.

You know, anyone of those would knock me totally out.

She's taking all of these.

Did that somehow contribute to what happened?

But, I... Look, I have to look at it by the letter of the law.

And the law is, whether we like it or not, the old McNaughton rule

which is, did you know right from wrong at the time of the incident?

If she can plan it and she can spell

Mediterranean Power Bowl and scallop and pork belly and, uh, risotto,

and send her husband across town and then murder the children,

it reminds me of Andrea Yates,

who she waited till Rusty Yates left the house

then she locked all the doors and took her children one by one and murdered them.

Yes, but Andrea Yates was found not guilty by reason of insanity in a retrial.

-The first conviction was a retrial... -That's right.

-...and so, she is now in a hospital today. -Yeah.

And so, I think that's ultimately the question.

You know, you look at what her husband wrote

just days after she's accused of strangling their three children

who he adored, he adored his family,

and he begs the public for forgiveness.

He says, "The real Lindsay was generously loving and caring towards everyone.

The very fibers of her soul are loving."

He's saying this is not the real Lindsay

and there are other countries that make allowances

for women who kill their biological children

-within the first year of birth. -[Nancy] And she'd

be loving and wonderful behind bars.

Real quick, we talked about the how, we talked about the who.

You asked me off-camera about the why. The motive.

I wanna play a quick clip here from Jennifer Sprague,

Distric... uh, Assistant District Attorney.

We may have the motive in this journal entry from Lindsay Clancy.

The defendant wrote a note on her phone on October 25th, 2022, stating,

"I think I sort of resent my other children

because they prevent me from treating Cal like my first baby."

She also wrote, "I want to feel love and connection with all of my kids."

This would indicate that she did not feel love or connection

with at least some of her kids.

I have a big problem with this thing used as evidence,

-but we can talk about it on the other side of the break. -Okay.

A mother of three kills her tots, ages 5, 3 and just 7 months.

This, after researching ways to kill.

But tonight, many argue she's not to blame because of postpartum depression.

And a twist. A man accused of killing his spouse

but cops find the victim in an alleged apartment turned sex den.

Unsealed documents in the case against Lindsay Clancy

reveal the mother of three had notebooks documenting her meds.

Thoughts of suicide and that she researched ways to kill.

5-year-old Cora, 3-year-old Dawson

7-month-old Callan all strangled in the home.

Her lawyer says she suffered from postpartum depression

and that she was overmedicated.

With us now, renowned psychiatrist, Dr. Angela Arnold.

Dr. Angie, thank you for being with us.

-Did you see this list I made... -Yes.

...of all the meds she was on?

And you and I both know, since this is your expertise

that insanity requires you not know right from wrong

at the time of the incident.

Nancy, there are couple of things I wanna know.

Had she stopped breastfeeding?

Had she started her menstrual cycle

after the last baby was born, yet?

And she did this in January which adds a bit of what we call

-Seasonal Affective Disorder. -[Nancy] I'm sorry, but,

how does a menstrual cycle, uh, fit in with murdering your three children?

-Is there nobody here but him... Derrick... -[Angela] I'll tell you.

-...and me worried about the children? -Sweetie, I'll tell you--

Oh, no. I'll tell you exactly how it plays in.

Nancy, a long, long time ago

when a woman had her first menstrual cycle after the birth of her child,

that was the number one child when a...

time when a woman would be admitted to a psychiatric hospital.

Because they literally can go crazy

leading up to their first menstrual cycle.

The other thing is, she was smart enough

because she was a labor and delivery nurse.

To know what these medicines meant to her,

She was also smart enough to know

that she wasn't feeling right.

And if you don't treat postpartum depression, Nancy,

if it's not treated appropriately

it gets worse and worse and worse and worse

and then, there's the possibility that she could've become psychotic.

And psychosis waxes

-and wanes... -[Nancy] Wait, wait, when you say psychotic

-you mean that she was seeing hallucinations or... -...Out of touch with reality.

-Yes, hearing things... -...What exactly does that mean?

-Hearing things. -That's not in the notebook, is it?

I actually think there was something in her notebook about that.

Well, but a lot of people have noted that she seemed perfectly normal that day.

She, you know, called the pharmacy

and she made calls and she planned the dinner.

But you just mentioned waxing and waning...

-Yes. -...of consciousness and clarity.

Can you explain that a little bit more?

-Is it possible that both things could be true? -[Angela] Yes.

It is completely possible and the other thing about this is...

Nancy, she had gotten to such a horrific point.

This is what happens to women.

First of all, when a woman has a baby

that... especially, women that are very in tuned,

they're very vigilant about the baby. Right?

That's why women can hear a baby cry at night when men can't, okay.

They're very vigilant. Well, what happens is

that can roll over into too much vigilance.

And that... it... it... that's when they start having intrusive thoughts.

That goes along with the lack of sleep that many women have

-and if you notice-- -[Nancy] Okay, you know what?

I'm gonna have to make another chart.

Lack of sleep, period,

-breastfeeding... It ain't working, Angie. -[Angela] What do you mean?

-This is how-- -That's not rising to insanity!

Lack of sleep, having the first period?

Oh, Nancy, I'm telling you it does rise to the level of insanity.

[Derrick] Can I throw a different angle at you guys?

'Cause I feel like the defense is gonna go with being overprescribed.

I know the insanity element is a part of it

but he keeps bringing that up, Herrington, I believe his name is

and there is two particular drugs... He did a toxicology report.

Two particular drugs, correct me if I'm wrong on any of this,

an anti-depressant, which is Remeron...

-Am I saying that right? And then... and then... -[Angela] Yes. Remeron.

-And then, an anti-psychotic, Seroquel. -[Angela] Seroquel.

Those two were at peak levels when the...

at the time that they did the toxicology reports

and the prosecution is suggesting that she took those medications

-after killing the children. -Mmm-hmm.

[Derrick] Would that show some consciousness of, "Okay, listen,

there's an angle here that I wanna play,

I might wanna take those drugs after the fact."

[Angela] I believe she took those drugs.

Seroquel will stop the thoughts in your head, okay,

and I have a feeling she probably doused herself with that.

[Derrick] Question. Why wouldn't she take them before or... killing the kids,

-but after the thoughts? -I don't know.

-I don't know. -[Derrick] Okay, 'cause that's my...

we're gonna take the anti-psychotic after killing the three kids?

And the Remeron makes you sleep.

-That's the only thing Remeron does. -One more question.

Does any combination of these drugs

increase the likelihood of homicidal violence

-in your professional experience? -No.

-Okay. -[Nancy] Okay.

She's screwed. Technical legal term.

Because if it doesn't increase homicidal violence tendencies

or suicidal or homicidal ideation...

-[Derrick] Unless they go postpartum psychosis. -...that's not gonna help her.

I know, Nancy, but her psychosis was not being treated.

But I think what's so hard for people to understand,

we do hear cases where mothers kill their children and they were awfully abusive

and the children were malnourished and the boyfriend was beating them

and that's a particular kind of monster.

In this case, this woman, by all accounts

was incredibly loving and devoted and caring to her children.

So, the question is, if everything you're saying is true,

-why? Why would she want to harm her children? -[Angela] She was sick.

-Exactly. -What happens, guys,

when you start to get intrusive thoughts... I see it all the time.

You get intrusive thoughts, they get worse

because you're up all night breastfeeding the baby, okay,

and your lack of sleep.

Guess what the obsessive thoughts become?

Every time I see it...

"I'm not a good mother. I don't need to be here. I'm not a good mother."

And there's no telling what her thoughts went to after that.

[Nancy] You know what, though, Dr. Angie?

You load that jury with moms like me,

moms that have had lack of sleep,

moms that breastfed, moms that had their first period,

moms that... that go through all that

and they're gonna be thinking,

"I would never have killed my children."

-Or-- Mmm-hmm. -[Mara] I actually have a lot of compassion for her

-because I under the... the... the hormonal overload... -Mmm-hmm.

...the intrusive thoughts,

-I had terrible intrusive thoughts... -The lack of sleep.

...when my son was a newborn.

This, actually, would be very convincing.

[Nancy] I'm not saying I don't feel for her.

The woman is paralyzed from jumping out of a window.

I hate to even hear what she's going through.

Oh, speaking of being paralyzed,

she's paralyzed, but did you know

in the hospital room... she writes...

This is right after the children are dead.

"Do I need a lawyer?"

-Right. -She writes that on a whiteboard

in her hospital room.

Okay, how's that... how's that working for you guys?

Well... well, here's the thing, Nancy.

Maybe she... maybe she is so confused that she's thinking,

"Oh, my God, what have I done? Do I need a lawyer now?"

I don't see it as, "Oh, my God, I killed my kids."

Because I believe this woman loved her children

and I believe she was failed by the system.

Can you believe that the first doctor she went to

did not diagnose her with postpartum depression?

Nancy, somebody walks into your office,

they're postpartum, if they're depressed,

they don't have generalized anxiety disorder,

they have postpartum depression. Okay?

-All day long. I know. -[Nancy] Know what? They need you as an expert witness.

-And you need some experts. -'Cause they are gonna have to convince a jury

that this drove her to commit triple homicide.

And I think we all feel for her

-but more for the children. -[Angela] Nancy, do you know--

Nancy, do you know that I've been flooded with emails from patients

around the country telling me that they wanna tell me their story.

That they want to let me know what their postpartum episode was like.

Dr. Angela Arnold, thank you so much.

Coming up, an Atlanta blue blood

and partner at one of the most prestigious law firms in the country

and living the good life on his wife's money,

Tex McIver convicted of shooting his wife dead

and making it look like an accident

has an extremely rare reversal of fortune.

He gets a new trial.

That's right. A second swing at the ball.

Will this wily lawyer that knows all the ropes wrangle his way out of jail?

And next, allegations of murder an alleged sex den

and a bizarre Facebook post by the accused killer.

Welcome back to Crimefeed.

A grieving widower raises thousands

with a heart-wrenching GoFundMe campaign

after his husband's quote, "unexpected passing."

And then, plot twist.

Fifty-five-year-old Florida man Herbert Swilley

now the prime suspect in the murder of his long-time love.

Timothy Smith's dead body found inside an apartment

the couple rented in Ocala, Florida.

Swilley just pleads not guilty.

Mara, Derrick, what happened?

Well, according to the arrest warrant,

police found 59-year-old Tim on the floor of a bedroom,

wearing only a shirt and shoes.

His body bearing the marks of a brutal attack.

Dark ligature marks on his neck,

and traumatic injuries to his face and his private parts.

His cause of death was strangulation and a broken neck.

And Tim could not have fought back even if he wanted to

because a toxicology report revealed

he had been badly drugged.

In his system,

thirty times the standard therapeutic dose

of diphenhydramine, which is the main ingredient

in certain allergy meds and sleep aids.

Let's take a listen to a clip of Tim's sister, Sandy,

speaking to a reporter about his gruesome death.

[shakily] I mean, my brother's not a small person.

Or wasn't. He was tall.

And he was strong, and I just...

I can't imagine what he went through,

and it breaks my heart to think of it.

Yeah. Now, after Tim didn't show up for work,

Herb told police he went looking for him

and found his car outside a second apartment they shared

about five minutes away from where they lived.

Now, allegedly, they had an open marriage

and they used this place for hookups.

The homicide investigation ultimately led police to believe

that Herbert killed Tim in their home,

moved him to the second apartment,

and then staged a crime scene there.

He allegedly did try to clean it up.

Deleted Ring camera footage, disposed of a rug at a landfill.

But ultimately, cameras and cell phone data caught him in a bunch of lies.

And I have to say the overall totality of the evidence is pretty incriminating.

Well, one of the things that you mentioned,

this apartment that they had.

-Yeah. -The second apartment that they had.

Reportedly, for hookups with other people

-because they had an open marriage... -Right.

...and they needed the privacy to do that.

So Tim would have then, presumably, been at that apartment

to meet up with someone for a hookup.

You're taking 30 times the dose of an allergy med,

essentially, that's gonna knock you out,

and then you're gonna go to a hookup?

That by itself doesn't make any sense.

Can we talk about what this is really about?

As exciting as the idea of a sex den

and an open marriage, and blah, blah, blah...

It's about the money!

It's about $330,000 of life insurance policy,

and it's about the age-old story of domestic abuse.

This victim had been beaten

by his husband on many occasions.

Friends had seen him with a black eye,

with bruises all over his body.

And so when the defendant sees,

"Uh-oh, there goes my meal ticket,

and my $330,000 of life insurance policy,

I better act right now."

And he did. It's all about the money.

And how dare he get on Facebook

and post about how he's gonna celebrate

their would've-been eight-year anniversary?

How dare he go on Facebook

whining about how much he misses his spouse

on their eight-year anniversary?

And he did it!

Yeah. No. As far as that, yeah, that's terrible.

But as far as connecting the dots to show that he's lying,

I love what detectives did here.

Obviously, you have video footage showing

Herbert's vehicle leaving their main residence...

-Oh, yeah. -...going to the apartment that night.

But what's interesting about it is,

as they're tracking that vehicle,

Tim's cellphone is tracking in the vehicle

after seeing the video of Herbert leaving the main house,

going to the apartment, travelling with him.

So, it shows that the victim, more than likely, was deceased and in that vehicle.

But here's where it gets interesting.

And I gotta try to explain it. You know how you have your cellphone,

-it connects to your vehicle when you get in it, normally. -[Nancy] Yeah.

Well, the cellphone stays at the apartment complex.

Then you see the shadowy figure

on a gas station video going back to the main house.

Then you see Tim's vehicle, shortly after,

leaving and driving to the apartment. But what's interesting is,

they believe that when that vehicle showed up,

the cellphone from the victim, Tim, that was inside the house,

reconnected with his vehicle because it was so close.

Showing that Tim, or his cellphone,

was not inside the vehicle when Tim would have, allegedly,

been driving his car to that location.

Which completely debunks what Herbert was trying to convey.

And there were other things that also debunked his story, you know.

He said he had been sleeping that night.

-[Derrick] Right. -And you see Ring camera activity,

-and also his own phone activity... -[Nancy] And then he got up,

-went to the gym at 4:00 am. -[Mara] Right, he...

-[sarcastically] Right. -[Mara speaks indistinctly] ...when in fact evidence

suggest that he was at the landfill,

-dumping what appeared to be carpets. -[Nancy] I was just gonna

ask you about that, Mara.

Please, how guilty are you when first thing in the morning

you're dumping the carpets out of your home at the landfill?

-Really? -And friends of theirs said that they noticed

in the days following that the carpets were missing from their home.

And so the theory that investigators have put together

is that Herbert murdered Tim in their home.

And rolled him up in these carpets,

put him in his own truck,

-which, I understand had a flatbed, I believe. -[Derrick] That's right.

[Mara] Drove that and the cellphone to the sex den,

as you call it, Nancy. [chuckles]

-Left them there. -[Nancy] That was the cops' words.

-[Mara laughing] -Not mine. I don't think I've ever said "sex den"

before now. But please, I'll take the credit, go ahead.

Left the victim and the cellphone there.

Drove back home, then drove the victim's car

to the apartment so that he could leave it there,

so that when he called police for a welfare check, it would all be there.

And that's the other thing that really bothers me about this.

You're calling for a welfare check.

He says, "Oh, I think he's pissed off about something,

and I don't have the key to my own apartment.

-Can you please go check on him?" -[Derrick] Mmm.

-That just doesn't add up. -He wanted to separate himself.

He might as well have taken out an ad

on Park Avenue that said, "I did it. Arrest me!"

I mean, a welfare check because he can't get him to pick up the phone

at their sex den?

Of course he wouldn't be picking up the phone at the sex...

-I just wanna see how many times I can say "sex den." -[laughs] Sex den.

And tonight, will a blue-blood lawyer

get away with murder?

Tex McIver swears his gun just went off.

Will a new jury believe him in round two?

A high-powered lawyer found guilty of his wife's murder,

but now, his case reversed.

Was he living the high life off his wife's money?

Immediately selling her jewelry,

furs, designer clothes, shoes, handbags.

Raising nearly $300,000

immediately after she dies to keep the party going?

Funding his lavish lifestyle?

Including a luxury condo,

plus, a huge farm outside the city.

Complete with a pool, a guest ranch,

horse barn, and even a saloon.

Mara, what!

Nancy, in 2016, 73-year-old Tex McIver shot and killed his wife,

sixty-three-year-old Diane McIver in Atlanta, Georgia.

Tex claimed he accidentally shot Diane

in the car on the way back from a weekend getaway.

But authorities believe it was intentional

and that he had financial motives.

In 2018, he was convicted of felony murder

and sentenced to life in prison.

But the Georgia Supreme Court overturned that conviction,

granting Tex a new trial, because the jury was

not given the option to convict him

on the lesser charge of involuntary manslaughter.

Tex's retrial is now slated for mid to late 2024.

Can I just point something out?

This guy works at this very prestigious law firm.

But, he was no longer bringing in the clients.

His wife was footing the bill for not only their condo...

And I've gone by there and looked at the condo,

it is nice, guys.

I mean, like, couple of million dollars.

Plus, hour and a half outside the city, about a...

I forgot how many thousand acre farm,

where he would go out there and play the gentleman farmer lawyer.

And have everybody come down for big shindigs at his farm.

She was paying for all of that.

[Derrick] Yeah, there's a lot here with motive,

and we could talk about the fact that his net worth,

allegedly, went from 1.5 million to approximately

3.6 to 6.9 million after Diane's death.

But I wanna talk about the actual incident

because I know as the cop here, it's automatically,

"We're gonna charge him of murder. That's what we're gonna hit him with."

But I gotta tell you, he seems like an intelligent guy,

at least he sounds like one. If you're gonna do this,

I feel like, out of respect for Diane,

there was a better way to do it. He does it in the back of a vehicle...

[Nancy] I can't believe you're actually saying it was

-a dumb way to kill. Okay. -Just follow me, just follow me here.

You never wanna have a witness with you,

because that's obviously... [stutters]

...dissent from what you're gonna say as far as what you believe happened.

You have Dani Jo in the vehicle who's a friend of Diane's.

And the manner in which he shot her,

and we can pull up the 3D-rendering here

really quick while we're talking about it.

They actually did a 3D-rendering of it. And again,

the way he shot her through the back of a seat,

it's not a guarantee that she would've passed away from it.

You can see the 3D rendering here.

He doesn't shoot her in the back of the head.

He shoots her in the ribcage, the stomach area.

There's a strong potential that she could've survived these injuries.

So I wonder if you're intentionally trying to kill her,

would you wanna do it in the presence of someone else?

And would you wanna do it in a way where the shot itself may not be fatal?

But here's the thing. Right now, intent no longer matters,

-because the jury in the first trial... -[Derrick] Good point.

...acquitted him on malice murder,

which is intent.

So because they've acquitted him on that,

in this new trial, the judge ruled

that intent cannot be introduced because

they've already decided he didn't intend to kill his wife.

And if they decide that again, that's double jeopardy.

So, everything that you mentioned about the money as the motive,

prosecutors can't use that

-as a motive to kill. -[Nancy] I can still talk about it, though.

-[Derrick laughs] -'Cause I think that's what happened.

And guys, he changed his story!

So there, the three of them with the friend driving,

are coming back into the city.

And he says, first of all, he sees...

He's asleep, he wakes up and he sees homeless people,

and gets scared and demands his gun. Really?

I lived one block from where this shooting went down.

That's not true.

It's not true at all.

Then he said he was afraid of the Black Lives Matter protesters.

Not true.

No one was bothering his car or approaching them.

So he says he gets the gun, which has about 12 lb...

-[stutters] ...trigger pull. -Trigger pull. Yeah.

-[Nancy] And... -Revolver.

[Mara] What does that mean for the layperson?

-If I... Yeah, you tell her. -So, it's the amount of pressure needed to pull...

It's not gonna be an accidental discharge, put it this way.

The gun didn't just accidentally go off in his hand.

You have to pull that trigger pretty adamantly

-to get... [indistinct] -You have to pull with 12 lb of force.

So, him saying that he was asleep

-and the car went over a bump... -No.

-[Nancy] That's another story. -...that doesn't sound plausible.

[Nancy] The car went over a bump, and he went... [shrieks] "Boop!"

And just shot her dead. I don't believe that.

You have to pull the trigger.

Ballistics can show that, right, Derrick?

[Derrick] It could. But again, it's a matter of,

is he just someone who isn't familiar with the firearm like he should be?

Let's be honest, he shouldn't have the gun out while he's sitting

in the backseat. That's just incompetence.

[Nancy] How can you go to sleep with your hand on the trigger

-of a gun? -[Derrick speaks indistinctly]I wanna play a video

really quick if we can. It's a video from after the shooting.

It's hospital footage where you actually see Diane

being brought into the hospital. Tex is with her.

Sometimes, you can see things with body cam...

...with the body language. Let's take a look and see what you guys think.

[no audio]

[Derrick] Anything stand out to you guys in this video here?

I mean, to me, there was really not much.

He's with her, obviously, that's the right thing to do.

[Mara] But there have been a lot of questions about his behavior at the hospital.

That people say he didn't seem to be appropriately upset

about what happened.

He was changing his story repeatedly multiple times.

A nurse said that she overheard him say,

"Oh, the gun went off when I was cleaning it in the bathroom."

Which doesn't make any sense because we know he was in the car.

Um, and then, after the fact,

there is this attempt to influence witnesses.

-[Derrick] Absolutely. -And he was convicted on that, and that conviction stands.

Where he told the driver of the car,

-her friend, Dani, to say she wasn't there. -Dani Jo, yeah.

Where he told her husband to not talk to the police.

And he's such an idiot to be a trial lawyer,

-he actually leaves her messages... -[Mara chuckles]

...on her answering machine.

-But also very-- -[Derrick] He did say, "delete this," though.

[laughs] Yeah. "Hey, after I tell you what to testify to, delete it."

-[Derrick] It doesn't count if you say, "delete it." -Very important,

she did not want him in the room with her

at the hospital.

Can I tell you, when I gave birth to the twins,

I did not let David leave my side.

He sat there and read the same verse out of Romans

until the children were out and alive.

She said to the nurse, "Don't let him in.

I don't want him in here." Why? Why do you think?

Yeah. Because she saw him as a threat.

Didn't she even say something along the lines of, when they asked her what happened,

she's like, "I think it was an accident." Didn't she say that?

-[Nancy] Or, "I thought it was an accident." -Yeah, "I thought

it was an accident." So she wasn't even sure like,

-"How did this just happen?" Obviously, she's in shock. -[Nancy] And what about

selling all her stuff? It reminds me of Scott Peterson.

He tried to sell Laci's car

and ordered the porn channel.

He knew she wasn't coming back home

because he killed her.

And immediately after she dies,

Diane, who is making all the money, working hard,

he throws a $300,000 sale of all of her stuff.

-[Mara] Yeah. -Forget about giving it to family

or anything sentimental,

he needs the money and he wants the money.

-[Mara] And-- -She was his meal ticket, Mara.

Yeah, and that's part of what can be introduced to this new trial,

is his behavior after the fact.

His behavior with the witnesses,

his behavior in doing things like that.

His behavior at the hospital.

But the one thing that's gonna be really hard for prosecutors to overcome

-is that they can't introduce a motive. -[Derrick] RIght.

They're definitely handcuffed. So that's why the next guest is gonna be

-great to speak to. -Super important.

Tonight, a special guest.

The lead prosecutor on the Tex McIver case.

What does he know that any jury will never hear?

Man, you're preaching to the choir, Clint Rucker.

That is Clint Rucker, the lead prosecutor,

who has secured Tex McIver's conviction

for killing his wife, and our guest today.

Clint Rucker, thank you for being with us.

That was an incredible closing statement you gave.

The jury went with you, but can I just ask you right off the top,

what about him crying [mimics crying] in court?

He sure wasn't crying at that $300,000 yard sale he threw

selling all of his wife's stuff.

And then he started tearing up

and-- you know, dabbing at his eyes in court, really?

How sick did that make you?

Uh, yes, you know, anytime you get a defendant

who, at the most appropriate time,

chooses to shed the waterworks,

it's always, uh, interesting to see.

I don't think the jury bought it one bit.

Mara, what do you think?

Well, there was an acquittal on malice murder.

So, I'm wondering your thoughts on that.

So, why do you think that he was acquitted on malice murder?

That now really hamstrings you for the upcoming trial.

Right, well, with respect to malice murder, of course,

you know, it requires that element

of a deliberately intended act

that's designed to cause the death of another person.

And I think that, um,

the fact that the investigation did not reveal

the second will that we believe provided the primary motive

for the shooting, uh,

-in as much as Diane was going to leave-- -[Nancy] Hold on, hold on.

Ho-- [chuckles] What?

The second will? Hold on.

What second will? Tell me about a second will.

And what happened to it?

So, one of the things that happened during the trial

is that the jury heard that there had been

ongoing, really violent disputes

between Diane and Tex McIver

over the re-writing of Diane's will.

She wanted to leave all of her property

to someone else other than Tex.

And uh, that included the ranch

for which she had a $350,000 outstanding loan

she had given to Tex

that she intended to call due

and foreclose on that ranch.

-So, there was a lot at stake. -I'm sorry, my head is about to spin off.

He took $350,000 from his own wife

to prop up that ranch

down in Eatonton, Georgia?

[Rucker] That's absolutely right.

-[Nancy] Hmm. -[Rucker] And I'll tell you,

Diane was such a smart businesswoman,

she didn't just give the money to her husband, like,

"You all right, my dude."

Uh, she actually put it on paper,

she took out a lien against the property

so that if he didn't pay her back

and that money was due,

in a couple of weeks after the shooting,

she would have the right to foreclose on that ranch

-and own it outright. -[Nancy] Hmm.

Clint, I have a-- a question for you

about this upcoming trial

involving the involuntary manslaughter, the potential of that.

But, before we get into that, I wanna play a clip for the audience.

-Sure. -This is interrogation footage

from Tex McIver where he describes,

the incident that we're talking about today.

[Rucker] Sure.

[Derrick] Now, Clint, you know that obviously,

Tex's defense team successfully argued

that the jury was improperly instructed

uh, as regards to the consideration

of a lesser charge of involuntary manslaughter.

What's your thoughts going forward with that?

Do you have a game plan in place?

Are you prepared for it?

Well, I will tell you that

there were lots of discussions.

Uh, as you all know,

there's always a conference that occurs

between the lawyers and the judge where you discuss

the charges that the judge will tell the jury about.

Uh, and there was really vigorous litigation

um, in law

and I believe at the time supported opposition,

that he was not entitled to the misdemeanor

-involuntary manslaughter charge... -[Mara] Mmm-hmm, mmm-hmm.

...in as much as he maintained the position

that he did not pull the trigger.

-Interesting. -He always maintained the position

that the gun simply went off.

-And that is-- -There was a malfunctioning

-of the gun. -That defense is incompatible

with a involuntary misdemeanor charge.

It's-It's very obvious.

If you're gonna say, "I did not pull the trigger",

-involuntary itself means you don't-- -[Mara] Can you explain--

[Nancy] Uh, you explain it, Clint.

[Mara] Now, help us out, help the non-lawyers here

understand the distinction.

Sure.

So, uh, the misdemeanor would've been

uh, based on a reckless conduct, right?

So, uh, the theory would've been

by his lawyers that,

he was reckless in as much as

his handling of the weapon.

And so, it was the reckless handling of the weapon

that then fired a bullet that then later caused her death.

In most situations in Georgia,

that can be misdemeanor involuntary manslaughter.

The typical scenario you see is,

I'm cleaning my gun,

-I'm in my house. -[Derrick] Mmm-hmm.

[Rucker] Uh, I don't realize there's a bullet in the chamber.

I have my finger on the trigger,

I pull the trigger in cleaning the gun,

the gun goes off, the bullet goes through the wall,

and I strike somebody in the next room and they die.

-So-So, is it fair to s-- -Misdemeanor involuntary manslaughter

-all day long. -Is-Is it-- Well, is it fair to say

with this upcoming trial,

we were talking about in the previous segment,

a firearm expert is gonna be critical.

Because it goes back to the...

-Trigger pull. -The amount of trigger pull

we needed to pull that gun.

We see a lot of cases, I've-I've covered a lot of cases

where you have a husband or a wife cleaning their gun

and they shoot their spouse accidentally.

-It-It happens. -Well, do yo have to put-- help me understand this,

-'cause I know nothing about firearms. -[Derrick] Yeah.

Do you have to pull the trigger to clean a gun?

-No, you don't, that's the problem. -No, you don't.

That's the problem.

But, you have people who mishandle the gun

where they don't even know there's a round in the chamber.

I've got something really important.

Clint, is it true you have seen the saloon?

Yeah, so as part of the investigation

and the pre-trial preparation,

I did have a chance to go down

and visit the ranch on a few occasions

and was able to tour it.

And uh, I will tell you, it's magnificent.

-There's a huge main house. -[Derrick] Hmm.

[Rucker] Then, the ranch is, uh,

a little bit less than 100 acres.

Once you get to the main house,

there's a big pool in the back

and behind the pool,

there is an old style western saloon,

as though you walked in off the set of Tombstone.

It's fantastic.

But-But Clint, you can't introduce

any of these elements of wealth

as motive for killing Diane.

So, how do you plan to overcome that hurdle?

Well, one of the things that uh, Georgia law allows is

in order to convict the person of murder,

you don't have to prove motive.

Motive is not a necessary element

to convict the person of-of murder.

And in this case, um,

the State has to prove that an aggravated assault was committed.

And in this case, aggravated assault is charged

as shooting his wife with a handgun.

Uh, if you can establish that element

and the shooting of that handgun

caused the death of Diane McIver,

you've got felony murder.

That's right, and Clint, he was about to lose it all.

That big, huge spread that he built,

all the money, everything.

If she left that money to her nephew,

and it was happening, Clint,

and she was gonna call in that $350,000 loan on him.

It was all going down the drain, Clint.

That right, we had a forensic, uh, deep dive

into his finances as well as hers.

On the day of the shooting,

the check in account for Tex McIver

-was a negative $5,402. -[Derrick sighs]

Clint Rucker, I'll see you in court, young man.

Here are CrimeFeed, we bring you the biggest crime stories

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Some whipped from the headlines,

some, you may never have heard of.

From Mara, Derrick and myself,

see you next week.

Happy holidays, and good night, friend.