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Would you like to inspect the original subtitles? These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated: 1 00:00:06,103 --> 00:00:09,482 [narrator] A bombshell report about the University of Idaho murders. 2 00:00:09,517 --> 00:00:11,275 What survivors may have heard 3 00:00:11,310 --> 00:00:15,034 as Bryan Kohberger allegedly murdered four of their friends 4 00:00:15,068 --> 00:00:17,896 just feet away from them, in the middle of the night. 5 00:00:17,931 --> 00:00:21,482 A big question: Where is the murder weapon? 6 00:00:21,517 --> 00:00:24,344 And the twisted murder case of Crystal Rogers. 7 00:00:24,379 --> 00:00:27,034 Her ex-boyfriend accused of the killing. 8 00:00:27,068 --> 00:00:29,379 His brother failed a lie-detector test. 9 00:00:29,413 --> 00:00:31,206 And now the cops wanna know, 10 00:00:31,241 --> 00:00:33,724 is any of it tied to another killing, 11 00:00:33,758 --> 00:00:35,413 Crystal's father? 12 00:00:35,448 --> 00:00:37,137 Mara S. Campo, 13 00:00:37,172 --> 00:00:39,896 Derrick Levasseur, and Nancy Grace. 14 00:00:39,931 --> 00:00:42,172 This week onCrimefeed. 15 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:47,413 It's the case that shocked the nation in November. 16 00:00:47,448 --> 00:00:49,482 A gruesome quadruple homicide 17 00:00:49,517 --> 00:00:52,206 that shattered a small town in Idaho. 18 00:00:52,241 --> 00:00:55,758 The trial of Bryan Kohberger was set to start this month, 19 00:00:55,793 --> 00:00:57,620 but now developments. 20 00:00:57,655 --> 00:00:59,827 Private investigator Derrick Levasseur 21 00:00:59,862 --> 00:01:02,655 and investigative journalist Mara S. Campo 22 00:01:02,689 --> 00:01:03,758 here as always. 23 00:01:03,793 --> 00:01:05,793 Mara, what's the latest? 24 00:01:05,827 --> 00:01:07,827 Well, Nancy, the one year anniversary 25 00:01:07,862 --> 00:01:09,931 of this gruesome crime is approaching. 26 00:01:09,965 --> 00:01:12,068 And the trial for the suspect charged with killing 27 00:01:12,103 --> 00:01:14,620 four young students will soon be underway. 28 00:01:14,655 --> 00:01:15,724 Here's that story. 29 00:01:17,965 --> 00:01:21,000 On a frigid morning in November, 2022, 30 00:01:21,033 --> 00:01:25,068 the small, quiet town of Moscow, Idaho, was devastated 31 00:01:25,103 --> 00:01:27,517 after police found the dead bodies 32 00:01:27,551 --> 00:01:29,689 of four Idaho University students 33 00:01:29,724 --> 00:01:32,137 in a home they rented just off campus. 34 00:01:32,172 --> 00:01:35,689 Best friends, Kaylee Goncalves and Madison Mogen, 35 00:01:35,723 --> 00:01:39,206 both 21, were found in the third floor bedroom. 36 00:01:39,241 --> 00:01:43,378 Xana Kernodle and her boyfriend Ethan Chapin, both 20, 37 00:01:43,413 --> 00:01:46,103 were discovered on the second floor. 38 00:01:46,137 --> 00:01:48,793 All four victims were brutally stabbed 39 00:01:48,827 --> 00:01:51,448 multiple times with a large knife. 40 00:01:51,482 --> 00:01:53,000 After searching the home, 41 00:01:53,033 --> 00:01:55,689 police were unable to find the murder weapon. 42 00:01:55,723 --> 00:01:58,448 But, they did discover something interesting, 43 00:01:58,482 --> 00:02:02,896 a knife sheath lying on the bed next to Madison's body. 44 00:02:02,931 --> 00:02:05,310 Weeks went by without any answers. 45 00:02:05,344 --> 00:02:07,413 But after a painstaking search, 46 00:02:07,448 --> 00:02:10,896 police finally zeroed in on a white Hyundai Elantra 47 00:02:10,931 --> 00:02:13,034 at nearby Washington State University. 48 00:02:13,068 --> 00:02:14,517 The owner of the vehicle? 49 00:02:14,551 --> 00:02:17,620 Twenty-eight-year-old Ph.D. student, Bryan Kohberger. 50 00:02:17,655 --> 00:02:19,517 And when Kohberger's phone records 51 00:02:19,551 --> 00:02:21,068 show him near the crime scene, 52 00:02:21,103 --> 00:02:23,068 the case finally heats up, 53 00:02:23,103 --> 00:02:25,068 and the mysterious knife sheath 54 00:02:25,103 --> 00:02:27,103 becomes a critical piece of evidence. 55 00:02:27,137 --> 00:02:30,344 DNA found on the sheath was tested against 56 00:02:30,379 --> 00:02:32,551 DNA found in Kohberger's trash. 57 00:02:32,586 --> 00:02:35,067 The results were a match. 58 00:02:35,103 --> 00:02:37,551 And on December 30th, 2022, 59 00:02:37,586 --> 00:02:40,137 Kohberger was arrested and charged for the murder 60 00:02:40,172 --> 00:02:43,241 of Kaylee, Madison, Xana, and Ethan, 61 00:02:43,275 --> 00:02:45,517 four innocent, young students, 62 00:02:45,551 --> 00:02:47,965 whose lives were tragically stolen. 63 00:02:48,896 --> 00:02:51,586 You know, Mara, I believe, very firmly, 64 00:02:51,620 --> 00:02:54,137 that even without the DNA match, 65 00:02:54,172 --> 00:02:56,620 there would be an incredible amount 66 00:02:56,655 --> 00:02:57,930 of circumstantial evidence. 67 00:02:57,965 --> 00:03:00,586 I mean, can we just get real for one moment? 68 00:03:00,620 --> 00:03:05,206 When police moved in on Kohberger's family home in the Poconos... 69 00:03:05,241 --> 00:03:06,931 Now remember, Kohberger come 70 00:03:06,965 --> 00:03:08,896 thousands of miles across the country 71 00:03:08,931 --> 00:03:11,517 in his Elantra with his father. 72 00:03:11,551 --> 00:03:14,000 He gets there for Thanksgiving break. 73 00:03:14,034 --> 00:03:17,034 When the cops finally arrest him, 74 00:03:17,068 --> 00:03:18,206 wait for it, 75 00:03:18,241 --> 00:03:20,448 he's standing in the kitchen 76 00:03:20,482 --> 00:03:22,689 in his underwear and a shirt 77 00:03:22,724 --> 00:03:26,931 with plastic gloves on, separating the trash 78 00:03:26,965 --> 00:03:29,896 and putting it in individual trash bags. 79 00:03:29,931 --> 00:03:31,862 Who on a jury is not gonna say, 80 00:03:31,896 --> 00:03:33,724 "He's obviously hiding evidence!" 81 00:03:33,758 --> 00:03:35,206 Well, and they had also seen him 82 00:03:35,241 --> 00:03:38,862 putting his family's trash into some of the neighbor's trash cans. 83 00:03:38,896 --> 00:03:41,448 So, there are things like that that happened in Pennsylvania. 84 00:03:41,482 --> 00:03:43,793 But in my opinion, some of the most compelling 85 00:03:43,827 --> 00:03:45,310 -circumstantial evidence, if you will... -[Nancy] Oh, yeah. 86 00:03:45,344 --> 00:03:48,482 ...is the phone records and the movements of the car. 87 00:03:48,517 --> 00:03:50,310 So, what investigators were able to do is very clever. 88 00:03:50,344 --> 00:03:53,000 They paired the movements of the car with the phone records. 89 00:03:53,034 --> 00:03:54,965 And what they found is that the phone 90 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:58,758 left his home around 2:45 am the morning of the murders. 91 00:03:58,793 --> 00:04:01,034 It was then off, or on airplane mode, 92 00:04:01,068 --> 00:04:02,689 between 3:00 am and 5:00 am, 93 00:04:02,724 --> 00:04:04,413 which is when the murders took place. 94 00:04:04,448 --> 00:04:06,034 Then return back to his home, 95 00:04:06,068 --> 00:04:08,551 and then back to the scene of the crime the following morning. 96 00:04:08,586 --> 00:04:10,344 -That would be very hard to explain. -You know what's interesting, 97 00:04:10,379 --> 00:04:11,896 though, with that is the fact that, 98 00:04:11,931 --> 00:04:14,310 okay, he turned his phone off. People turn their phones off once in a while. 99 00:04:14,344 --> 00:04:15,793 But the problem is, he hadn't done that 100 00:04:15,827 --> 00:04:16,964 weeks or months prior to that. 101 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:18,654 But, I wanna go back to the DNA real quick, 102 00:04:18,689 --> 00:04:20,310 because although I agree with you, 103 00:04:20,344 --> 00:04:21,447 I don't know if we need it, 104 00:04:21,481 --> 00:04:23,620 the defense is attacking the genetic genealogy. 105 00:04:23,655 --> 00:04:25,241 But, it was obtained legally. 106 00:04:25,275 --> 00:04:27,482 They got it from the trash, that's abandoned property. 107 00:04:27,517 --> 00:04:30,137 But let's not forget that after Kohberger was arrested, 108 00:04:30,172 --> 00:04:32,931 he was brought in, they took a direct DNA sample, 109 00:04:32,965 --> 00:04:34,137 and it matched the sheath. 110 00:04:34,172 --> 00:04:36,482 So, I don't understand why they're going after 111 00:04:36,517 --> 00:04:38,413 -the genetic genealogy when they have a direct match. -I'll tell you why, Derrick. 112 00:04:38,448 --> 00:04:39,620 -They have to. -Because they have to. 113 00:04:39,655 --> 00:04:41,000 -[Derrick] They have to. Yeah, they have to. -Yes, yes. 114 00:04:41,034 --> 00:04:43,413 And as to you, you're preaching to the choir. 115 00:04:43,448 --> 00:04:47,655 I am all about the digital footprint 116 00:04:47,689 --> 00:04:49,689 Kohberger left behind. 117 00:04:49,724 --> 00:04:52,068 And I went to Idaho, 118 00:04:52,103 --> 00:04:56,068 and I did this at night, in the wee hours of the night, yes, 119 00:04:56,103 --> 00:04:59,034 and drove that very circuitous route. 120 00:04:59,068 --> 00:05:00,965 From the crime scene 121 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:04,034 all the way back to his home, his apartment in Pullman. 122 00:05:04,068 --> 00:05:05,551 Now you know, he could've driven 123 00:05:05,586 --> 00:05:07,172 about nine minutes and gotten home. 124 00:05:07,206 --> 00:05:09,172 But that night, the night of the murders, 125 00:05:09,206 --> 00:05:10,896 he drove the circuitous route. 126 00:05:10,931 --> 00:05:13,241 It took him about an hour to get home. 127 00:05:13,275 --> 00:05:18,586 It was on a two-lane, no lights, no people, nothing. 128 00:05:18,620 --> 00:05:21,241 Um, another thing on this DNA attack, 129 00:05:21,275 --> 00:05:24,241 as Derrick Levasseur correctly stated, 130 00:05:24,275 --> 00:05:25,965 they're attacking it because 131 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:27,655 they've got to attack it. 132 00:05:27,689 --> 00:05:30,517 -Right. -It's, um, one in, I believe, eight, 133 00:05:30,551 --> 00:05:34,275 uh, five octillion, or three octillion a match. 134 00:05:34,310 --> 00:05:36,586 Did you know that that's more people 135 00:05:36,620 --> 00:05:40,137 than have ever lived on the planet Earth so far? 136 00:05:40,172 --> 00:05:43,758 That's how damning that DNA match is 137 00:05:43,793 --> 00:05:46,586 on the, uh, snap on that sheath. 138 00:05:46,620 --> 00:05:48,241 Yeah, I've seen this in my cases too, 139 00:05:48,275 --> 00:05:51,517 where the evidence is so good, the defense has to go after how it was obtained. 140 00:05:51,551 --> 00:05:53,413 -But again, they're going after evidence... -[Nancy] Smart. 141 00:05:53,448 --> 00:05:54,827 ...that doesn't necessarily matter. 142 00:05:54,862 --> 00:05:57,172 -Again, he was brought in, they got the DNA. -[Nancy] Oh, yes. 143 00:05:57,206 --> 00:05:59,724 It's a direct match. It's similar to, uh, Rex Heuermann. 144 00:05:59,758 --> 00:06:01,344 -Right? Where they got the pizza crust. -Mmm-hmm. 145 00:06:01,379 --> 00:06:03,482 -That was the preliminary match-- -The dad's DNA. 146 00:06:03,517 --> 00:06:05,448 -But they got the dad's DNA in this case... -Mmm-hmm. 147 00:06:05,482 --> 00:06:08,758 ...from the trash can, which was illegally-- which was legally obtained, 148 00:06:08,793 --> 00:06:10,655 because as you know, it's abandoned property. 149 00:06:10,689 --> 00:06:12,413 The police have the right to seize that property. 150 00:06:12,448 --> 00:06:14,620 -They test it. That's how they get the familial match. -[Nancy] Mmm-hmm. 151 00:06:14,655 --> 00:06:16,551 They arrest Kohberger, they bring him in. 152 00:06:16,586 --> 00:06:18,448 Now they have a direct match from Kohberger, 153 00:06:18,482 --> 00:06:21,103 Bryan Kohberger, not the dad, to the sheath itself. 154 00:06:21,137 --> 00:06:22,448 It's game over. 155 00:06:22,482 --> 00:06:24,586 -Now, they just got to explain it that simply. -It's game over. 156 00:06:24,620 --> 00:06:26,758 -Maybe you guys should make the opening statements. -[Derrick] Yeah. 157 00:06:26,793 --> 00:06:28,448 Well, but I think some of the other evidence 158 00:06:28,482 --> 00:06:30,689 that's very compelling, and also very relatable to, 159 00:06:30,724 --> 00:06:32,862 you know, a layperson who would be on the jury, 160 00:06:32,896 --> 00:06:36,103 is the eyewitness testimony from the roommate 161 00:06:36,137 --> 00:06:38,068 who was, uh, was unharmed, 162 00:06:38,103 --> 00:06:40,068 -who was awake at the time. -[Nancy] Uh, Dylan Mortensen. 163 00:06:40,103 --> 00:06:41,689 She said that she opened her door 164 00:06:41,724 --> 00:06:43,379 after she had heard a number of noises 165 00:06:43,413 --> 00:06:45,344 throughout the time of the murders. 166 00:06:45,379 --> 00:06:47,862 -And she saw the person, presumed to be the killer... -[Derrick] Hmm. 167 00:06:47,896 --> 00:06:49,448 ...walk directly past her. 168 00:06:49,482 --> 00:06:51,586 She was able to provide a partial description 169 00:06:51,620 --> 00:06:53,517 because she said he was wearing a COVID mask. 170 00:06:53,551 --> 00:06:54,689 But that lines up. 171 00:06:54,724 --> 00:06:57,482 And then there's also a lot of evidence 172 00:06:57,517 --> 00:07:00,689 that suggest, um, that he was stalking these girls, 173 00:07:00,724 --> 00:07:02,448 and he was in the area 174 00:07:02,482 --> 00:07:04,275 -prior to the murders having taken place. -[Nancy] Oh! 175 00:07:04,310 --> 00:07:07,827 -And that's gonna be very difficult to explain. -Yes! Twelve times, 176 00:07:07,862 --> 00:07:10,379 -Mara. He has been driving... -[Mara] Twelve times in that area. 177 00:07:10,413 --> 00:07:12,068 -...by their home. -[Derrick] Mmm-hmm. 178 00:07:12,103 --> 00:07:14,000 Oh, speaking of driving, 179 00:07:14,034 --> 00:07:15,551 so glad you said that. 180 00:07:15,586 --> 00:07:19,413 I believe his vehicle is a 2015 Elantra. 181 00:07:19,448 --> 00:07:22,206 And in 2011, 182 00:07:22,241 --> 00:07:26,689 is when Elantras began to have navigation systems. 183 00:07:26,724 --> 00:07:29,724 Which means, and we saw this in Alex Murdaugh. 184 00:07:29,758 --> 00:07:32,758 I hate to keep using him and Scott Peterson as an example, 185 00:07:32,793 --> 00:07:36,655 but frankly, they're like the poster children for cases, 186 00:07:36,689 --> 00:07:38,275 uh, to prove legal points. 187 00:07:38,310 --> 00:07:40,310 But in Murdaugh, remember, 188 00:07:40,344 --> 00:07:43,413 the nav system doesn't just show where you've been, 189 00:07:43,448 --> 00:07:44,655 or how long you were there, 190 00:07:44,689 --> 00:07:46,482 it shows when you turn you car on, 191 00:07:46,517 --> 00:07:49,241 when you turn the ignition, when you let the windows up, 192 00:07:49,275 --> 00:07:51,931 when you take off, where you go, when you stop, 193 00:07:51,965 --> 00:07:53,413 when you put it in park. 194 00:07:53,448 --> 00:07:56,137 And that's very valuable in this case, 195 00:07:56,172 --> 00:07:57,965 all that nav system data. 196 00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:00,620 And then also paired with the surveillance video from the neighborhood 197 00:08:00,655 --> 00:08:02,068 that shows on the night of the murder 198 00:08:02,103 --> 00:08:03,896 at the time that the murders were taking place, 199 00:08:03,931 --> 00:08:06,896 this same car was circling the house three times. 200 00:08:06,931 --> 00:08:08,482 The fourth time around, it stops. 201 00:08:08,517 --> 00:08:11,068 And then it's seen speeding away from the crime scene 202 00:08:11,103 --> 00:08:13,068 after the time that the murders were committed. 203 00:08:13,103 --> 00:08:15,275 And then, if we're going back to the information 204 00:08:15,310 --> 00:08:17,724 that suggests there was motive related to stalking, 205 00:08:17,758 --> 00:08:21,551 we have, as you mentioned, him in the area 12 times before. Why? 206 00:08:21,586 --> 00:08:23,551 He was reportedly at the place 207 00:08:23,586 --> 00:08:25,689 where two of the victims worked. It was a restaurant. 208 00:08:25,724 --> 00:08:27,517 He had been there a couple times before. 209 00:08:27,551 --> 00:08:29,827 He was reportedly following the victims, 210 00:08:29,862 --> 00:08:31,275 three of them on social media, 211 00:08:31,310 --> 00:08:33,413 even though they were not following him back. 212 00:08:33,448 --> 00:08:35,655 -That's gonna be very difficult to explain. -[Nancy] Hey, 213 00:08:35,688 --> 00:08:37,827 he's right. Well, you're both right. 214 00:08:37,861 --> 00:08:40,241 But what you said is, with the DNA evidence, 215 00:08:40,275 --> 00:08:43,965 they used the short tandem repeat analysis, 216 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:46,206 uh, to get this DNA match. 217 00:08:46,241 --> 00:08:49,241 That's practically unassailable in court. 218 00:08:49,275 --> 00:08:51,862 So, what they're gonna have to do is just what you said, Derrick, 219 00:08:51,896 --> 00:08:55,103 they're gonna attack how it was obtained. 220 00:08:55,137 --> 00:08:57,068 I've been thinking about, "How can the state 221 00:08:57,103 --> 00:09:00,379 fight back and defeat that before it even comes up?" 222 00:09:00,413 --> 00:09:02,344 I thought of something. Bodycam. 223 00:09:02,379 --> 00:09:04,310 All the cops going in there, 224 00:09:04,344 --> 00:09:07,241 well hopefully not a lot to not contaminate the scene, 225 00:09:07,275 --> 00:09:09,517 but hopefully they were wearing their bodycams, 226 00:09:09,551 --> 00:09:12,137 so it shows no one is tampering with evidence, 227 00:09:12,172 --> 00:09:14,241 no one is destroying the crime scene. 228 00:09:14,275 --> 00:09:16,689 You know, I'm kind of angry right now, and I'll tell you why. 229 00:09:16,724 --> 00:09:17,896 On top of everything else, 230 00:09:17,931 --> 00:09:19,862 but just recently a report came out 231 00:09:19,896 --> 00:09:21,620 that the two surviving roommates 232 00:09:21,655 --> 00:09:23,827 that were home that night, that were not killed, 233 00:09:23,862 --> 00:09:26,448 it would be Dylan Mortensen and Bethany Funke, 234 00:09:26,482 --> 00:09:29,620 were texting during the killings. 235 00:09:29,655 --> 00:09:33,379 And the father of one of the victims, Mr. Goncalves, 236 00:09:33,413 --> 00:09:35,551 has come out and said, "That's absolutely not true." 237 00:09:35,586 --> 00:09:37,068 What is wrong with people? 238 00:09:37,103 --> 00:09:39,793 Why are they putting falsehoods out there 239 00:09:39,827 --> 00:09:41,758 that just hurt the victim's families? 240 00:09:41,793 --> 00:09:43,793 Yeah, and we're also talking, I mean these are college students 241 00:09:43,827 --> 00:09:45,344 they're in their twenties. 242 00:09:45,379 --> 00:09:47,275 You know, so... so the idea that they would be up late and texting and 243 00:09:47,310 --> 00:09:50,206 not necessarily picking up on, you know, clues that something was wrong 244 00:09:50,241 --> 00:09:53,517 I mean attacking those girls after what they've been through is just awful. 245 00:09:53,551 --> 00:09:56,931 One final thing. DNA is huge. I think that's one selling point in this case. 246 00:09:56,965 --> 00:10:00,241 But also Kohberger you talked about the vehicle, the Elantra, 247 00:10:00,275 --> 00:10:03,310 police officers, other departments have him in the car, on body cam, 248 00:10:03,344 --> 00:10:05,482 driving that vehicle can't say he doesn't drive it 249 00:10:05,517 --> 00:10:09,413 and secondly his... his cellphone coordinates matched the location of that vehicle 250 00:10:09,448 --> 00:10:10,517 that entire night. 251 00:10:10,551 --> 00:10:12,448 So he can't say, "Hey, I wasn't in the car there." 252 00:10:12,482 --> 00:10:15,413 They had his GPS coordinates from his cellphone following him 253 00:10:15,448 --> 00:10:18,206 -in the same direction of the car. -And the alibi, I like to take 254 00:10:18,241 --> 00:10:20,448 long drives at night alone, okay. 255 00:10:20,482 --> 00:10:22,034 -Yeah. -Guys, when we come back, 256 00:10:22,068 --> 00:10:24,172 a former FBI agent gives us 257 00:10:24,206 --> 00:10:29,103 the analysis and a potential motive in the Kohberger case. 258 00:10:29,137 --> 00:10:33,172 And then the Kentucky murder case of Crystal Rogers. 259 00:10:33,206 --> 00:10:38,034 A lot of questions being asked about her boyfriend's family 260 00:10:38,068 --> 00:10:41,724 and the murder of not only Crystal but of her father too. 261 00:10:47,827 --> 00:10:49,310 Welcome back to, Crimefeed. 262 00:10:49,344 --> 00:10:51,793 Big question, if Bryan Kohberger 263 00:10:51,827 --> 00:10:55,965 is in fact the Moscow Idaho killer, why did he do it? 264 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:58,068 And where is the murder weapon? 265 00:10:58,103 --> 00:11:01,551 The court has entered a plea of not guilty for him. 266 00:11:01,586 --> 00:11:03,793 He insists he is innocent. 267 00:11:03,827 --> 00:11:06,724 Joining us now, Jennifer Coffindaffer, 268 00:11:06,758 --> 00:11:09,000 former FBI special agent. 269 00:11:09,034 --> 00:11:10,862 Jennifer, thank you for being with us. 270 00:11:10,896 --> 00:11:14,379 And of course as you and I have discussed, many many times, Jennifer, 271 00:11:14,413 --> 00:11:19,034 the state does not need to prove a motive that is not the state's burden. 272 00:11:19,068 --> 00:11:20,689 To get inside Kohberger's head 273 00:11:20,724 --> 00:11:22,206 and figure out why? 274 00:11:22,241 --> 00:11:24,172 But, practically speaking, Jennifer 275 00:11:24,206 --> 00:11:26,275 the jury will want to hear a motive. 276 00:11:26,310 --> 00:11:29,517 The jury definitely wants to hear a motive, they want to understand 277 00:11:29,551 --> 00:11:31,689 why a graduate student, 278 00:11:31,724 --> 00:11:37,068 who was studying criminology, would murder four individuals out of the blue 279 00:11:37,103 --> 00:11:38,551 with no criminal history. 280 00:11:38,586 --> 00:11:41,241 That's something that's hard to really compute. 281 00:11:41,275 --> 00:11:43,586 And there's a reason for it, Nancy. 282 00:11:43,620 --> 00:11:47,482 I think if you look at the choice of victims, which I believe were 283 00:11:47,517 --> 00:11:50,689 pointed at Maddie Mogen and Kaylee Goncalves. 284 00:11:50,724 --> 00:11:53,862 That was the reason, his reason was simply 285 00:11:53,896 --> 00:11:56,103 an incel type theory. 286 00:11:56,137 --> 00:11:57,793 In terms of him being hurt 287 00:11:57,827 --> 00:12:00,310 all these years, rejected all of these years. 288 00:12:00,344 --> 00:12:01,758 -Okay, wait just a minute. -Mmm-hmm. 289 00:12:01,793 --> 00:12:04,344 He's being hurt? How about he's being creepy? 290 00:12:04,379 --> 00:12:08,379 You know, he got kicked out of at least one bar slash restaurant. 291 00:12:08,413 --> 00:12:09,758 Because he would approach women... 292 00:12:09,793 --> 00:12:11,241 Did you know this, Mara listen to this 293 00:12:11,275 --> 00:12:13,103 if a guy comes up to and says, 294 00:12:13,137 --> 00:12:14,517 "Hey, what's your home address?" 295 00:12:14,551 --> 00:12:17,931 I would run for the hills as if I'd seen a monster. 296 00:12:17,965 --> 00:12:22,379 And just so mini, um awkward, not just awkward 297 00:12:22,413 --> 00:12:25,827 but scary moments that Kohberger would have with women. 298 00:12:25,862 --> 00:12:28,862 He got into arguments with his coworkers, 299 00:12:28,896 --> 00:12:31,344 he also reportedly 300 00:12:31,379 --> 00:12:33,724 uh, with a female coworker got, 301 00:12:33,758 --> 00:12:36,379 installed her Wi-Fi in her home, 302 00:12:36,413 --> 00:12:40,000 so, he could look at her, you know surveillance cameras. 303 00:12:40,034 --> 00:12:44,413 They went in a rearranged furniture, so she would come to him, 304 00:12:44,448 --> 00:12:47,482 and ask for help with the Wi-Fi system. 305 00:12:47,517 --> 00:12:51,517 Guy, you don't think that's an incel for sure? 306 00:12:51,551 --> 00:12:54,172 Yeah, I mean it absolutely does speak to that right? 307 00:12:54,206 --> 00:12:57,931 I mean, the awkwardness, the social unsurety of 308 00:12:57,965 --> 00:13:01,034 how to act around other individuals, particularly, women. 309 00:13:01,068 --> 00:13:03,965 It just spoke to really, I think what drove him to this. 310 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:07,241 Jennifer, I want to ask you a question because I know you've worked cases before. 311 00:13:07,275 --> 00:13:09,827 Sometimes yeah, it could be a motive involving, not feeling 312 00:13:09,862 --> 00:13:11,965 responded to, not feeling seen. 313 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:14,137 But, also there is an element especially with Kohberger 314 00:13:14,172 --> 00:13:17,413 where he is a PhD student and he thinks he's smarter than everyone. 315 00:13:17,448 --> 00:13:19,862 He's not gonna get into this thinking, "I'm gonna get caught." 316 00:13:19,896 --> 00:13:22,068 He's thinking, "I'm smarter than the police." 317 00:13:22,103 --> 00:13:24,586 "I'm gonna pull this off. I've watched these things before." 318 00:13:24,620 --> 00:13:27,206 "I've studied it. I know where the mistakes were made." 319 00:13:27,241 --> 00:13:29,517 "I can do better, I'm gonna get away with this." 320 00:13:29,551 --> 00:13:31,896 Do you think, that could be an element of it too? Where he just wants to see, 321 00:13:31,931 --> 00:13:33,275 how smart he really is? 322 00:13:33,310 --> 00:13:35,724 I definitely think that factored into it. 323 00:13:35,758 --> 00:13:40,758 And I think really, but for the knife sheath and that DNA 324 00:13:40,793 --> 00:13:44,724 I don't know if we'd be sitting here with Bryan Kohberger charged. 325 00:13:44,758 --> 00:13:48,275 [Nancy] You know, I think incel, the theory of an incel 326 00:13:48,310 --> 00:13:51,655 is a good one, I don't know if I would put throw that to a jury. 327 00:13:51,689 --> 00:13:54,275 Because, I don't know if we have enough to show 328 00:13:54,310 --> 00:13:56,068 that he is truly an incel. 329 00:13:56,103 --> 00:14:00,344 But my understanding of an incel is not that you're awkward around women. 330 00:14:00,379 --> 00:14:03,068 No offence, Derrick. But a lot of guys are they're not incels. 331 00:14:03,655 --> 00:14:05,586 But hatred, hatred, 332 00:14:05,620 --> 00:14:07,413 because they feel rejected, 333 00:14:07,448 --> 00:14:11,517 uh, they feel that they're as you said, they're invisible. 334 00:14:11,551 --> 00:14:14,103 And they develop not just an awkward, um 335 00:14:14,931 --> 00:14:16,724 attitude or demeanor, 336 00:14:16,758 --> 00:14:19,448 they actually hate women, guys. 337 00:14:19,482 --> 00:14:21,551 Take a listen to, 338 00:14:21,586 --> 00:14:24,931 a friend, an acquaintance, of Kohberger's. 339 00:14:26,344 --> 00:14:29,724 He did seem pretty, kind of just socially awkward. 340 00:14:29,758 --> 00:14:33,241 Um, I mean, kind of hard to carry a conversation with. 341 00:14:33,275 --> 00:14:35,103 If I remember correctly 342 00:14:35,137 --> 00:14:38,068 um, but besides that he just mainly just stood to the side, 343 00:14:38,103 --> 00:14:39,655 and was really observant. 344 00:14:39,689 --> 00:14:41,482 And... And so much so that 345 00:14:41,517 --> 00:14:45,793 based on that one small interaction he... you know, knew exactly knew who I was 346 00:14:45,827 --> 00:14:49,482 maybe a month or so later, when I saw him on that hike. 347 00:14:49,517 --> 00:14:51,689 My wife describes it as a death stare. 348 00:14:51,724 --> 00:14:53,275 And like, it kind of like is... 349 00:14:54,517 --> 00:14:56,758 Like you know, you make eye contact with people 350 00:14:56,793 --> 00:14:59,379 but you're not like, constantly and just staring at them. 351 00:14:59,413 --> 00:15:01,793 That's... he would be like constantly like staring at me. 352 00:15:01,827 --> 00:15:06,413 Like, he's trying to like analyze me. That was a feeling I would get... 353 00:15:08,310 --> 00:15:12,862 Jennifer, I spoke to the next door neighbor of Bryan Kohberger. 354 00:15:12,896 --> 00:15:18,448 At the-- his Pullman apartment and the neighbor said that he tried to befriend Kohberger 355 00:15:18,482 --> 00:15:22,793 and that when Kohberger's Dad, moved him there from the Poconos. 356 00:15:22,827 --> 00:15:27,034 The Dad actually came over and said, "Hey, could you be friends with my son?" 357 00:15:27,068 --> 00:15:28,655 He... he doesn't have a lot of friends. 358 00:15:28,689 --> 00:15:31,862 You know, like arranging a play date with a group, for grown men. 359 00:15:31,896 --> 00:15:36,000 But, the neighbor said, he tried to relate to Kohberger 360 00:15:36,034 --> 00:15:40,931 but his wife said, "Do not bring him back to this apartment." 361 00:15:40,965 --> 00:15:44,827 She had a sixth sense, there was just something way off with Kohberger. 362 00:15:44,862 --> 00:15:46,827 Mmm-hmm. And so many people I think 363 00:15:46,862 --> 00:15:49,000 need to follow those senses right? 364 00:15:49,034 --> 00:15:51,344 Think of all the people who would be victimized 365 00:15:51,379 --> 00:15:53,793 um, but for them following their senses. 366 00:15:53,827 --> 00:15:55,827 And she certainly grabbed ahold of that. 367 00:15:55,862 --> 00:15:57,551 Now, I was going to say, Nancy 368 00:15:57,586 --> 00:16:00,724 when you discussed maybe the incel couldn't be strong enough 369 00:16:00,758 --> 00:16:02,689 to bring forth to a jury. 370 00:16:02,724 --> 00:16:06,103 I just look at the state those victims, 371 00:16:06,137 --> 00:16:10,172 are left in, and if that doesn't show sheer hate, 372 00:16:10,206 --> 00:16:11,793 and despise. 373 00:16:11,827 --> 00:16:15,068 But, I'm curious your theory was that he was there for two of the victims 374 00:16:15,103 --> 00:16:16,689 and then the other two were unintended victims. 375 00:16:16,724 --> 00:16:20,448 But then there were two roommates who were unharmed. Why do you think that is? 376 00:16:20,482 --> 00:16:23,793 Well, first off I'm gonna dial down, I really think 377 00:16:23,827 --> 00:16:26,689 he... his intended victim was Maddie Mogen. 378 00:16:26,724 --> 00:16:30,172 And I say that because Kaylee Goncalves had already left. 379 00:16:30,206 --> 00:16:33,931 She was actually returning with a brand new vehicle that nobody had seen. 380 00:16:33,965 --> 00:16:35,862 So, I don't think he would have been familiar. 381 00:16:35,896 --> 00:16:38,482 I also think when he went up to that room 382 00:16:38,517 --> 00:16:40,241 and those two girls were in the bed, 383 00:16:40,275 --> 00:16:42,379 no one was more surprised than him. 384 00:16:42,413 --> 00:16:43,896 He had to kill both of them. 385 00:16:43,931 --> 00:16:45,655 [Nancy] But, the thing is, he could've left right then. 386 00:16:45,689 --> 00:16:47,448 I'm not sure that he knew 387 00:16:47,482 --> 00:16:49,965 that the survivors Dylan Mortensen 388 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:52,275 and Bethany Funke were even there-- even there. 389 00:16:52,310 --> 00:16:54,965 But, one thing about bringing in incel as a motive, 390 00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:56,655 could be a legal problem with that. 391 00:16:56,689 --> 00:16:59,068 If you bring other bad acts in 392 00:16:59,103 --> 00:17:01,172 that are not approved as a similar transaction, 393 00:17:01,206 --> 00:17:02,344 that's grounds for a reversal. 394 00:17:02,379 --> 00:17:04,482 That's the last thing that judge needs. 395 00:17:04,517 --> 00:17:06,550 Jennifer Coffindaffer, thank you. 396 00:17:06,586 --> 00:17:09,896 Guys, more on the Idaho killings when we come back. 397 00:17:09,931 --> 00:17:13,896 And then, the Kentucky murder case of Crystal Rogers. 398 00:17:13,931 --> 00:17:17,931 Lot of questions being asked about her boyfriend's family, 399 00:17:17,964 --> 00:17:21,103 in the murder of Crystal and her own father. 400 00:17:27,655 --> 00:17:29,310 Welcome back to Crimefeed. 401 00:17:29,344 --> 00:17:32,103 The trial of Bryan Kohberger, 402 00:17:32,137 --> 00:17:34,620 what's the latest? Why the hold up? 403 00:17:34,655 --> 00:17:37,068 And what do we know about the State's evidence? 404 00:17:37,103 --> 00:17:41,793 I am completely obsessed by a new discovery. 405 00:17:41,827 --> 00:17:44,379 Uh, the State has demanded information 406 00:17:44,413 --> 00:17:49,068 from Amazon, from Apple Pay, from PayPal, 407 00:17:49,103 --> 00:17:52,448 but they don't wanna know just what did Kohberger buy. 408 00:17:52,482 --> 00:17:56,241 They want every single on of his... [mimics clicking] clicks. 409 00:17:56,275 --> 00:17:58,724 -[Derrick] Mmm-hmm. -And I'll tell you why I think they're doing it. 410 00:17:58,758 --> 00:18:00,241 Someone said, um, 411 00:18:00,275 --> 00:18:02,965 "Your clicks reveal your heart, your soul and your thoughts." 412 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:04,344 And they really do. 413 00:18:04,379 --> 00:18:06,620 I'm not gonna ask you right here, pitch on the spot, 414 00:18:06,655 --> 00:18:08,275 "What's the last thing you looked up?" 415 00:18:08,310 --> 00:18:09,793 Or what you ordered. 416 00:18:09,827 --> 00:18:13,689 But, think about Kohberger ordering that Ka-Bar knife, 417 00:18:13,724 --> 00:18:16,172 fixed blade, and the sheath. 418 00:18:16,206 --> 00:18:19,275 You know that sheath was one-- uh, the type that 419 00:18:19,793 --> 00:18:20,965 Marines use, 420 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:23,172 and they put it on their belt loops 421 00:18:23,206 --> 00:18:25,241 so it doesn't come off in battle. 422 00:18:25,275 --> 00:18:27,620 Yet, he didn't have it attached 423 00:18:27,655 --> 00:18:29,034 and it was left behind. 424 00:18:29,068 --> 00:18:30,655 According to prosecutors, and of course, 425 00:18:30,689 --> 00:18:32,310 we know he's pled "not guilty." 426 00:18:32,344 --> 00:18:33,862 But, he bought the knife 427 00:18:33,896 --> 00:18:36,034 and the sh-- ooh, that's a good picture, Charles. 428 00:18:36,068 --> 00:18:38,482 He bought the knife and the sheath at the same time 429 00:18:38,517 --> 00:18:41,275 on Amazon eight-- oh, and there's the Elantra. 430 00:18:41,310 --> 00:18:45,137 Eight, wait, no, seven months before the murders. 431 00:18:45,172 --> 00:18:47,413 Talk about pre-meditation. 432 00:18:47,448 --> 00:18:49,896 Derrick Levasseur, seven months. 433 00:18:49,931 --> 00:18:51,827 Yeah, I agree, the Ka-Bar's gonna be huge. 434 00:18:51,862 --> 00:18:54,310 But, I also think they have over 51 terabytes of data 435 00:18:54,344 --> 00:18:55,379 that they haven't released yet. 436 00:18:55,413 --> 00:18:57,137 I think the Ka-Bar, the Amazon purchase 437 00:18:57,172 --> 00:19:00,310 is just the top of the-- the top of the evidence that they have there. 438 00:19:00,344 --> 00:19:01,862 But, I think when you get really into it, 439 00:19:01,896 --> 00:19:03,241 you're gonna have a lot of pre-meditation 440 00:19:03,275 --> 00:19:05,448 that may be spelled out right in the digital data. 441 00:19:05,482 --> 00:19:08,275 What else was he looking up, what other cases was he looking up, 442 00:19:08,310 --> 00:19:10,689 what type of-- what type of planning was he doing 443 00:19:10,724 --> 00:19:13,344 as far as the geography surrounding that neighborhood? 444 00:19:13,379 --> 00:19:15,310 I think-- again, when we get-- really get into it, 445 00:19:15,344 --> 00:19:17,896 I think that the Ka-Bar is gonna be the smoking gun 446 00:19:17,931 --> 00:19:19,172 but I think there's gonna be a lot more to it. 447 00:19:19,206 --> 00:19:20,965 Well, when you see the picture of the sheath 448 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:23,275 and you see the picture of the type of knife that was used, 449 00:19:23,310 --> 00:19:26,275 it really drives home how brutal these killings were. 450 00:19:26,310 --> 00:19:28,482 I mean, this was a hunting knife. 451 00:19:28,517 --> 00:19:29,827 And I-- I've a question, Nancy. 452 00:19:29,862 --> 00:19:31,758 There's something that really has confounded me 453 00:19:31,793 --> 00:19:34,586 and I-- for both of you, I wonder if you have any-- any thoughts on this. 454 00:19:34,620 --> 00:19:37,862 You know, there were no reports of screaming that night. 455 00:19:37,896 --> 00:19:39,448 But, you do have the autopsy showing 456 00:19:39,482 --> 00:19:41,965 that at least one of the victims had defensive wounds. 457 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:43,862 You also have one of the surviving roommates 458 00:19:43,896 --> 00:19:46,517 saying that she believes she heard a conversation taking place 459 00:19:46,551 --> 00:19:48,655 between the presumed killer and one of the victims. 460 00:19:48,689 --> 00:19:51,586 So, why do you think that-that nobody was screaming for help? 461 00:19:51,620 --> 00:19:54,000 Was he convincing them that perhaps they knew each other? 462 00:19:54,034 --> 00:19:55,655 Was he trying to calm them? 463 00:19:55,689 --> 00:19:57,206 What, perhaps, was taking place 464 00:19:57,241 --> 00:20:00,034 that nobody called out for help for the-- from the other roommates? 465 00:20:00,068 --> 00:20:03,551 Now, we have heard that there are surveillance video, uh, 466 00:20:03,586 --> 00:20:06,724 and I guess they're digging up the theory 467 00:20:06,758 --> 00:20:10,172 that there was a loud thump and there was a cry. 468 00:20:10,206 --> 00:20:13,862 But, nothing really alerted the other two roommates. 469 00:20:13,896 --> 00:20:16,724 But, think about it, they'd all been out partying, 470 00:20:16,758 --> 00:20:20,034 uh, two of them had been over at the Sigma Chi house, 471 00:20:20,068 --> 00:20:21,931 uh, Xana and Ethan. 472 00:20:21,965 --> 00:20:25,724 And, um, the others had been out at a food truck, 473 00:20:25,758 --> 00:20:28,517 they had been at a bar before that, a sports bar. 474 00:20:28,551 --> 00:20:31,000 It's late at night, they're going to sleep, 475 00:20:31,034 --> 00:20:32,896 -they've had a couple of drinks. -[Derrick] Hmm. 476 00:20:32,931 --> 00:20:34,310 Probably, they didn't scream out 477 00:20:34,344 --> 00:20:36,068 because they were dropping off to sleep. 478 00:20:36,103 --> 00:20:37,379 -[Derrick] Yeah-- -[Mara] But, what's so ominous is-- 479 00:20:37,413 --> 00:20:39,724 is the roommate reported hearing the male voice say, 480 00:20:39,758 --> 00:20:42,034 "It's okay, I'm going to help you." 481 00:20:42,068 --> 00:20:43,793 [Derrick] Yeah, I think-- I think you're in a situation 482 00:20:43,827 --> 00:20:45,379 and I hate to speculate too much, 483 00:20:45,413 --> 00:20:46,689 but, if they were even aware of it, 484 00:20:46,724 --> 00:20:48,241 which, I'm not completely certain they were, 485 00:20:48,275 --> 00:20:49,689 they might've been in bed, 486 00:20:49,724 --> 00:20:51,241 they might not even know they were about to be attacked. 487 00:20:51,275 --> 00:20:53,034 But, you could have a situation 488 00:20:53,068 --> 00:20:54,965 where you're in bed, you're in your home, 489 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:56,862 you-you think you're safe. 490 00:20:56,896 --> 00:20:58,586 This-This figure comes into the room, 491 00:20:58,620 --> 00:21:00,068 maybe holding the knife, 492 00:21:00,103 --> 00:21:02,310 what are you gonna do as a human being? You're gonna freeze. 493 00:21:02,344 --> 00:21:03,517 And you-you just want them to leave. 494 00:21:03,551 --> 00:21:05,137 You just wanna be okay. 495 00:21:05,172 --> 00:21:07,413 So, if they say to you, "Hey, listen, stay calm. Everything's gonna be okay." 496 00:21:07,448 --> 00:21:08,724 You-- You're gonna comply. 497 00:21:08,758 --> 00:21:10,379 Because what else can you do in that moment? 498 00:21:10,413 --> 00:21:12,172 And I think b-- if that's what happened 499 00:21:12,206 --> 00:21:13,620 when he attacked, it was-- it was too late. 500 00:21:13,655 --> 00:21:16,931 Well, we're also learning from, uh, Steve Goncalves, 501 00:21:16,965 --> 00:21:19,586 which of course is Kaylee Goncalves' father, 502 00:21:19,620 --> 00:21:24,137 that he believes Kaylee was kind of trapped against the wall, 503 00:21:24,172 --> 00:21:26,620 and... tried to fight back. 504 00:21:26,655 --> 00:21:29,413 In other words, Maddie was lying here, 505 00:21:29,448 --> 00:21:31,344 uh, Kaylee was here, 506 00:21:31,379 --> 00:21:33,620 and the wall-- two walls were here, 507 00:21:33,655 --> 00:21:35,379 the bed was pushed against them. 508 00:21:35,413 --> 00:21:37,724 And if he came for Maddie first, 509 00:21:37,758 --> 00:21:39,586 then there's nowhere for her to go. 510 00:21:39,620 --> 00:21:41,620 -No. -She was really trapped. 511 00:21:41,655 --> 00:21:42,896 I mean, in the middle of the night, 512 00:21:42,931 --> 00:21:45,655 in the dark, you can't see what's going on. 513 00:21:45,689 --> 00:21:48,000 And I've been told that 514 00:21:48,034 --> 00:21:49,344 some of the investigators 515 00:21:49,379 --> 00:21:53,000 actually felt ill when they got to the scene. 516 00:21:53,034 --> 00:21:54,206 And the other thing too. 517 00:21:54,241 --> 00:21:55,827 And there's been other cases where we've seen 518 00:21:55,862 --> 00:21:56,965 video surveillance of it 519 00:21:57,000 --> 00:21:59,758 where a stabbing happens in a matter of seconds. 520 00:21:59,793 --> 00:22:04,034 You can stab someone a lot of times in only a few minutes. 521 00:22:04,068 --> 00:22:05,724 -I mean, it's-- -Hey, another thing. 522 00:22:05,758 --> 00:22:07,034 Have you guys seen this? 523 00:22:07,068 --> 00:22:09,379 He comes back to the scene the next morning. 524 00:22:09,413 --> 00:22:11,896 Yes, and wanna see if police are on the scene yet. 525 00:22:11,931 --> 00:22:14,448 Do you wanna see if the bodies have been discovered yet? 526 00:22:14,482 --> 00:22:17,931 Is there-- Is there medical attention that's being provided? 527 00:22:17,965 --> 00:22:19,310 Is the media there yet? 528 00:22:19,344 --> 00:22:21,344 You wanna go back, presumably, 529 00:22:21,379 --> 00:22:22,689 if this is what took place... 530 00:22:22,724 --> 00:22:24,000 Go back to the scene of the crime 531 00:22:24,034 --> 00:22:25,482 to see what the aftermath is like. 532 00:22:25,517 --> 00:22:28,000 But they had not discovered that those-- the victims were killed yet. 533 00:22:28,034 --> 00:22:29,896 There's also a gratification, too, right? 534 00:22:29,931 --> 00:22:31,275 You wanna see your work. 535 00:22:31,310 --> 00:22:33,655 And of course, let's just say it again. 536 00:22:33,689 --> 00:22:36,931 He has pled not guilty in a court of law. 537 00:22:36,965 --> 00:22:39,068 We are waiting for the jury trial to start. 538 00:22:39,103 --> 00:22:41,275 Don't know when that's going to be. 539 00:22:41,310 --> 00:22:43,344 Meanwhile, on the other side of the country, 540 00:22:43,379 --> 00:22:46,793 the Kentucky murder case of Crystal Rogers. 541 00:22:46,827 --> 00:22:48,379 A lot of questions are being asked. 542 00:22:48,413 --> 00:22:51,000 Not only about her boyfriend, 543 00:22:51,034 --> 00:22:53,241 but about her boyfriend's family. 544 00:22:53,275 --> 00:22:55,413 And the murder of not only her, 545 00:22:55,448 --> 00:22:57,827 but of her father, Tommy Ballard. 546 00:23:12,517 --> 00:23:13,655 Welcome back to Crimefeed. 547 00:23:13,689 --> 00:23:14,517 I'm Nancy Grace. 548 00:23:14,551 --> 00:23:16,551 Here with Mara S. Campo 549 00:23:16,586 --> 00:23:18,103 and Derrick Levasseur. 550 00:23:18,137 --> 00:23:21,689 Next, a mother of five missing over eight years. 551 00:23:21,724 --> 00:23:25,068 Her boyfriend, finally, arrested for murder. 552 00:23:25,103 --> 00:23:26,862 But the case has also bled over 553 00:23:26,896 --> 00:23:29,275 into the lives of both of their families. 554 00:23:29,310 --> 00:23:31,965 Find out why the boyfriend's brother 555 00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:33,275 is now being investigated 556 00:23:33,310 --> 00:23:37,034 in the death of the missing woman's father. 557 00:23:37,068 --> 00:23:39,517 Mara, what is going on? 558 00:23:39,551 --> 00:23:41,827 Nd how are all these family members involved? 559 00:23:41,862 --> 00:23:43,896 Yeah, so many layers to this case, Nancy. 560 00:23:43,931 --> 00:23:47,448 Crystal Rogers was last seen on July 3rd, 2015 561 00:23:47,482 --> 00:23:50,586 on the Kentucky farm where she lived with her boyfriend, Brooks Houck. 562 00:23:50,620 --> 00:23:52,379 Well, now, he's been a main suspect 563 00:23:52,413 --> 00:23:53,482 since, pretty much, day one. 564 00:23:53,517 --> 00:23:55,000 But he was just arrested 565 00:23:55,034 --> 00:23:57,689 and charged for her murder in late September. 566 00:23:57,724 --> 00:23:59,793 So let's take a look at the winding road 567 00:23:59,827 --> 00:24:02,310 that led to Brooks Houck's indictment 568 00:24:02,344 --> 00:24:04,689 eight years after Crystal's disappearance. 569 00:24:07,896 --> 00:24:09,896 [Mara] Crystal Rogers was reported missing 570 00:24:09,931 --> 00:24:12,793 on July 5th, 2015, by her mother, 571 00:24:12,827 --> 00:24:15,620 when no one had heard from her in two days. 572 00:24:15,655 --> 00:24:16,965 Her boyfriend, Brooks Houck, 573 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:18,827 was reportedly the last one to see her 574 00:24:18,862 --> 00:24:21,137 in his family farm at Bardstown, Kentucky 575 00:24:21,172 --> 00:24:22,827 on the night of July 3rd. 576 00:24:22,862 --> 00:24:25,034 Brooks says, when he woke up the next morning, 577 00:24:25,068 --> 00:24:27,137 Crystal and her car were gone. 578 00:24:28,724 --> 00:24:31,206 The search got underway almost immediately 579 00:24:31,241 --> 00:24:32,724 and Crystal's car was soon found 580 00:24:32,758 --> 00:24:34,275 on the side of a parkway. 581 00:24:34,310 --> 00:24:38,758 Her keys, purse and cellphone, still inside. 582 00:24:38,793 --> 00:24:41,482 Police called in Brooks Houck for questioning. 583 00:24:41,517 --> 00:24:44,689 And it began as a fairly routine interview. 584 00:24:44,724 --> 00:24:48,137 Until Brooks got a call from his brother, Nick Houck. 585 00:24:48,172 --> 00:24:49,551 [cell phone ringing] 586 00:24:49,586 --> 00:24:51,344 Hello. No. 587 00:24:51,379 --> 00:24:53,689 [Mara] A Bardstown police officer 588 00:24:53,724 --> 00:24:56,965 advising him to end the interview, immediately. 589 00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:59,482 I know you told me innocent people got jammed up. 590 00:24:59,517 --> 00:25:01,689 If you're telling me to leave, I'll get up and leave. 591 00:25:01,724 --> 00:25:04,310 [Mara] When Nick inserted himself into the case, 592 00:25:04,344 --> 00:25:06,206 police questioned him as well. 593 00:25:06,241 --> 00:25:08,034 Well because you're telling me I'm lying and I know I'm not. 594 00:25:08,068 --> 00:25:09,172 I know the truth. 595 00:25:09,206 --> 00:25:10,344 You know? 596 00:25:10,379 --> 00:25:12,413 And I'm really 100% honest. 597 00:25:12,448 --> 00:25:14,517 [Mara] And after failing a polygraph test, 598 00:25:14,551 --> 00:25:16,172 regarding Crystal's disappearance, 599 00:25:16,206 --> 00:25:19,379 Nick became heated with his interrogators. 600 00:25:19,413 --> 00:25:22,413 And if you don't wanna believe me, that's your issue, it's not mine. 601 00:25:22,448 --> 00:25:23,931 [officer] It's not just me. I showed you. 602 00:25:23,965 --> 00:25:27,275 I don't give a [bleep] what you're [bleep] computer's saying. 603 00:25:27,310 --> 00:25:30,724 [Mara] Nick was then fired from the Bardstown Police Department 604 00:25:30,758 --> 00:25:31,931 over accusations of 605 00:25:31,965 --> 00:25:34,448 "lying or concealing information 606 00:25:34,482 --> 00:25:36,206 "relate to Crystal's case." 607 00:25:36,241 --> 00:25:38,655 But with both brothers denying involvement 608 00:25:38,689 --> 00:25:41,896 and still no sign of the missing mother of five, 609 00:25:41,931 --> 00:25:47,379 the biggest shock in the case would unfold in November, 2016. 610 00:25:47,413 --> 00:25:49,344 Crystal's father Tommy Ballard 611 00:25:49,379 --> 00:25:50,517 was found dead 612 00:25:50,551 --> 00:25:53,068 by a single gunshot wound to his chest. 613 00:25:54,758 --> 00:25:57,827 By 2020, with no arrests in either case, 614 00:25:57,862 --> 00:25:59,586 the FBI took over 615 00:25:59,620 --> 00:26:02,344 Tearing up the driveway of one of the Houck homes 616 00:26:02,379 --> 00:26:04,965 and repeatedly searching their properties. 617 00:26:06,068 --> 00:26:09,000 Finally, in August and September of this year 618 00:26:09,034 --> 00:26:11,310 agents arrested Brooks Houck 619 00:26:11,344 --> 00:26:13,103 as well as Joseph Lawson, 620 00:26:13,137 --> 00:26:15,413 the son of one of his employees. 621 00:26:16,206 --> 00:26:18,448 In yet another shocking twist, 622 00:26:18,482 --> 00:26:20,965 during Brooks' court hearing earlier this month 623 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:22,827 prosecutors reveal that Nick 624 00:26:22,862 --> 00:26:25,310 is now officially under investigation too. 625 00:26:33,103 --> 00:26:35,482 [Mara] He recently sold a gun under a false name 626 00:26:35,517 --> 00:26:38,793 that matches the caliber used to kill Tommy Ballard, 627 00:26:38,827 --> 00:26:42,172 Crystal's father, back in 2016. 628 00:26:42,206 --> 00:26:44,068 With us now, Fallon Glick. 629 00:26:44,103 --> 00:26:48,103 Reporter, anchor WDRB TV in Kentucky. 630 00:26:48,137 --> 00:26:50,344 Fallon, thank you so much for being with us. 631 00:26:50,379 --> 00:26:52,758 Oh, what a tangled web we weave, 632 00:26:52,793 --> 00:26:55,000 when first we practice to deceive. 633 00:26:55,034 --> 00:26:59,206 First of all, tell me about the gun 634 00:26:59,241 --> 00:27:04,482 that, reportedly, murdered Crystal's father, Tommy Ballard. 635 00:27:06,034 --> 00:27:08,137 Well, that information came out during 636 00:27:08,172 --> 00:27:10,034 an arraignment hearing for Brooks Houck. 637 00:27:10,068 --> 00:27:11,827 And nobody saw that coming. 638 00:27:11,862 --> 00:27:13,896 It was a bombshell from the prosecutor. 639 00:27:13,931 --> 00:27:15,586 Because we were all there, 640 00:27:15,620 --> 00:27:17,758 covering the case for Brooks Houck, 641 00:27:17,793 --> 00:27:19,793 and then when they dropped the bomb 642 00:27:19,827 --> 00:27:22,344 that Nick was connected to 643 00:27:22,379 --> 00:27:23,655 the murder of Tommy Ballard. 644 00:27:23,689 --> 00:27:27,620 And that was speculation for years in the Bardstown community. 645 00:27:27,655 --> 00:27:30,758 But for the first time, we heard that from an official. 646 00:27:30,793 --> 00:27:33,448 And we also heard from the prosecutor 647 00:27:33,482 --> 00:27:36,448 that Nick Houck sold that gun 648 00:27:36,482 --> 00:27:38,379 under a fake name, 649 00:27:38,413 --> 00:27:40,896 and the FBI now has that gun 650 00:27:40,931 --> 00:27:43,896 and they are doing multiple tests on it. 651 00:27:43,931 --> 00:27:45,896 -And four out of the five points-- -[Nancy] Right. 652 00:27:45,931 --> 00:27:49,241 [Fallon] Those come back to be the gun they believe was the one 653 00:27:49,275 --> 00:27:50,586 used to kill Tommy Ballard. 654 00:27:50,620 --> 00:27:53,413 Well, Fallon, we know it wasn't an accident 655 00:27:53,448 --> 00:27:55,620 or a suicide by Tommy Ballard 656 00:27:55,655 --> 00:27:57,931 because his gun had not been fired. 657 00:27:57,965 --> 00:28:00,862 That's very easy to determine with ballistics. 658 00:28:00,896 --> 00:28:04,206 So now I understand they've got four out of five points matching. 659 00:28:04,241 --> 00:28:07,620 We're waiting to find out if that was Nick's gun. 660 00:28:07,655 --> 00:28:10,310 Another thing about Nick Houck. 661 00:28:10,344 --> 00:28:14,103 Isn't it true that he called to the police department 662 00:28:14,137 --> 00:28:17,275 when his brother Brooks Houck was being interviewed 663 00:28:17,310 --> 00:28:18,827 and told him to stop talking? 664 00:28:19,586 --> 00:28:21,172 Oh, yes. That's 100% true. 665 00:28:21,206 --> 00:28:23,310 And then you can kind of see on that video 666 00:28:23,344 --> 00:28:24,793 from the interrogation room 667 00:28:24,827 --> 00:28:28,551 that Brooks and Nick, kind of, get into a little bit of an argument. 668 00:28:28,586 --> 00:28:31,413 And when Nick was then questioned about this, 669 00:28:31,448 --> 00:28:34,068 he said, "Well, my brother Brooks is 670 00:28:34,103 --> 00:28:36,275 "a very easygoing guy, 671 00:28:36,310 --> 00:28:38,448 "he wants to help with the investigation." 672 00:28:38,482 --> 00:28:41,689 so he said it was his duty as his brother, 673 00:28:41,724 --> 00:28:45,758 to help make sure he wasn't going to incriminate himself. 674 00:28:45,793 --> 00:28:48,689 And the detectives in the case were saying, 675 00:28:48,724 --> 00:28:50,448 "Well, you wanna help your brother here, 676 00:28:50,482 --> 00:28:53,379 "but why didn't you help when Crystal first went missing? 677 00:28:53,413 --> 00:28:55,068 "Why didn't you help with any of those searches?" 678 00:28:55,103 --> 00:28:57,655 So they were asking him some of those questions. 679 00:28:57,689 --> 00:29:00,275 "Well, if you're helping here, why aren't you helping in this area as well?" 680 00:29:00,310 --> 00:29:02,379 -'Cause he's a police officer. -[Nancy] What do you think, Mara? 681 00:29:02,413 --> 00:29:03,896 Well, you know, there have been a lot of questions 682 00:29:03,931 --> 00:29:06,379 about both of the brothers' behavior since the very beginning. 683 00:29:06,413 --> 00:29:08,724 One of the biggest questions is "Why didn't Brooks report--" 684 00:29:08,758 --> 00:29:10,793 Wait, we haven't really told about Crystal, Mara. 685 00:29:10,827 --> 00:29:12,551 She was asleep in the bed. 686 00:29:12,586 --> 00:29:13,620 Beside the boyfriend. 687 00:29:13,655 --> 00:29:15,793 The father of one of her five children. 688 00:29:15,827 --> 00:29:17,586 He says he goes to sleep, she's playing games. 689 00:29:17,620 --> 00:29:19,310 -And he wakes up, she's gone. -[Mara] She's gone. 690 00:29:19,344 --> 00:29:21,413 And he didn't think anything off it? 691 00:29:21,448 --> 00:29:22,862 And he couldn't find her? 692 00:29:22,896 --> 00:29:25,137 [Mara] And what you know is, in my opinion as a mother, 693 00:29:25,172 --> 00:29:26,862 one of the most important aspects of this case. 694 00:29:26,896 --> 00:29:29,068 Because she is often described as his girlfriend. 695 00:29:29,103 --> 00:29:31,379 She's also the mother of his child. 696 00:29:31,413 --> 00:29:33,241 So, if the mother of your child is missing... 697 00:29:33,275 --> 00:29:35,000 And then this is right around the holidays, 698 00:29:35,034 --> 00:29:36,551 it's right before the 4th of July. 699 00:29:36,586 --> 00:29:39,206 Then she doesn't show up for 4th of July festivities, 700 00:29:39,241 --> 00:29:40,793 he still doesn't report her missing. 701 00:29:40,827 --> 00:29:42,034 -[Nancy] You know, I asked him about that. -[slaps table] 702 00:29:42,068 --> 00:29:45,034 I asked Brooks Houck that question 703 00:29:45,068 --> 00:29:48,000 "You're supposed to meet her at the July 4th party, and she never shows up. 704 00:29:48,034 --> 00:29:49,275 "Did you call her?" 705 00:29:49,310 --> 00:29:51,551 And he goes, "No, I didn't think it was that important." 706 00:29:51,586 --> 00:29:52,758 What? 707 00:29:52,793 --> 00:29:55,068 And also, the brother of-- I'm sorry, the brother Nick, 708 00:29:55,103 --> 00:29:56,586 who is a police officer. 709 00:29:56,620 --> 00:29:58,862 This is your nephew's mother. 710 00:29:58,896 --> 00:30:00,137 You would think if you're a police officer 711 00:30:00,172 --> 00:30:02,344 then you would do everything possible 712 00:30:02,379 --> 00:30:03,793 to try and aid in the investigation. 713 00:30:03,827 --> 00:30:05,034 He's accused of the opposite. 714 00:30:05,068 --> 00:30:06,310 According-- He didn't even know her, according to Nick. 715 00:30:06,344 --> 00:30:07,413 He didn't even realize-- 716 00:30:07,448 --> 00:30:08,655 Fallon, I wanted to ask you a question real quick. 717 00:30:08,689 --> 00:30:10,482 'Cause I'm seeing different reports on this. 718 00:30:10,517 --> 00:30:14,034 It seems like shortly after they ripped up one of the driveways owned by Brooks, 719 00:30:14,068 --> 00:30:16,655 the case really started to pick up steam. 720 00:30:16,689 --> 00:30:17,862 But I'm seeing two different reports. 721 00:30:17,896 --> 00:30:20,275 I'm seeing that the driveway was of his personal property 722 00:30:20,310 --> 00:30:22,758 and then some-- some are saying that it was his rental property. 723 00:30:22,793 --> 00:30:25,137 Can you tell us which one it was? 724 00:30:25,172 --> 00:30:27,310 So, that property where they ripped up that driveway, 725 00:30:27,344 --> 00:30:29,827 that was a home that Brooks Houck built. 726 00:30:29,862 --> 00:30:33,206 So, we don't know what led the FBI to that house 727 00:30:33,241 --> 00:30:35,965 But Brooks was responsible for building that house, 728 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:37,310 pouring the concrete. 729 00:30:37,344 --> 00:30:38,724 He took care of everything 730 00:30:38,758 --> 00:30:41,551 to get that house built for a family to move in there. 731 00:30:41,586 --> 00:30:44,379 And you know, you feel bad for the family who lives there now. 732 00:30:44,413 --> 00:30:45,517 Um, but... 733 00:30:45,551 --> 00:30:47,655 the driveway has been replaced and all. 734 00:30:47,689 --> 00:30:49,862 But we don't know what they found. 735 00:30:49,896 --> 00:30:52,862 We don't know what the FBI took away from that search warrant. 736 00:30:52,896 --> 00:30:54,551 [Nancy] Wait a minute. Wait a minute. 737 00:30:54,586 --> 00:30:58,344 Didn't they see multiple construction trucks 738 00:30:58,379 --> 00:31:00,689 leaving with big, huge chunks 739 00:31:00,724 --> 00:31:02,034 of the driveway 740 00:31:02,068 --> 00:31:03,931 on the bed of the truck? 741 00:31:03,965 --> 00:31:05,689 They took the driveway. 742 00:31:05,724 --> 00:31:07,758 And one of the reasons they took that driveway 743 00:31:07,793 --> 00:31:09,034 after they jackhammered it, 744 00:31:09,068 --> 00:31:12,379 cause they had sniffer dogs out there. 745 00:31:12,413 --> 00:31:14,482 Now, they have dogs out there. 746 00:31:14,517 --> 00:31:17,793 And suddenly start-- they start jackhammering a driveway. 747 00:31:17,827 --> 00:31:19,448 I mean, a logical conclusion, 748 00:31:19,482 --> 00:31:21,068 two plus two still equals four, 749 00:31:21,103 --> 00:31:23,758 I think is that the dogs hit. 750 00:31:23,793 --> 00:31:25,275 We don't know that yet. 751 00:31:25,310 --> 00:31:27,137 And again there's a not guilty plea. 752 00:31:27,172 --> 00:31:29,482 We're waiting for this to unfold, in court, 753 00:31:29,517 --> 00:31:32,551 But I'm concerned also about 754 00:31:32,586 --> 00:31:34,275 him possibly getting bond. 755 00:31:34,310 --> 00:31:36,827 Right now he's got a $10 million bond set. 756 00:31:36,862 --> 00:31:38,448 People think, "Oh, he can't make it." 757 00:31:38,482 --> 00:31:40,724 But isn't it true, Fallon Glick, 758 00:31:40,758 --> 00:31:42,344 that at the last hearing, 759 00:31:42,379 --> 00:31:44,965 the prosecutor brough out property titles 760 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:48,724 that shows he's actually a multi-millionaire? 761 00:31:48,758 --> 00:31:51,931 That's right. He owns about 80-some properties 762 00:31:51,965 --> 00:31:53,689 in the Bardstown area, 763 00:31:53,724 --> 00:31:55,931 and the prosecutor brought out tax assessments 764 00:31:55,965 --> 00:31:57,000 for 66 of those. 765 00:31:57,034 --> 00:31:58,413 So that's not even all of them. 766 00:31:58,448 --> 00:32:01,655 And for 66 of those properties that he owns, 767 00:32:01,689 --> 00:32:04,793 it equals out to about $8.5 million. 768 00:32:04,827 --> 00:32:07,827 -[Derrick whistles] -So if we have all 80-some properties, 769 00:32:07,862 --> 00:32:09,482 the prosecutor was saying, 770 00:32:09,517 --> 00:32:12,379 he could easily make that $10 million bond. 771 00:32:12,413 --> 00:32:14,689 [Mara] But Nancy, if I'm not mistaken, this is a cash bond, right? 772 00:32:14,724 --> 00:32:16,758 So he has to put forth all of it as cash. 773 00:32:16,793 --> 00:32:18,103 He can't use collateral. 774 00:32:18,137 --> 00:32:19,413 He can't put down a percentage. 775 00:32:19,448 --> 00:32:20,275 -So... -Assurity. 776 00:32:20,310 --> 00:32:21,758 And they're-- They're trying to ensure 777 00:32:21,793 --> 00:32:22,793 he stays where he is. 778 00:32:22,827 --> 00:32:24,172 And one of the reasons that the court decided 779 00:32:24,206 --> 00:32:25,758 is because they are concerned 780 00:32:25,793 --> 00:32:28,137 about the safety of other witnesses. 781 00:32:28,172 --> 00:32:31,689 Presumably, incorporating what happened to Tommy Ballard 782 00:32:31,724 --> 00:32:34,137 -into-- into some of that... -I got a question for you guys. 783 00:32:34,172 --> 00:32:35,482 Jump in, Fallon. 784 00:32:35,517 --> 00:32:37,793 If your beloved... 785 00:32:37,827 --> 00:32:40,655 Your husband, your wife, your boyfriend, your girlfriend... 786 00:32:40,689 --> 00:32:42,896 You wake up and they're not there, 787 00:32:42,931 --> 00:32:46,827 I would be lying on the front steps of the police station, 788 00:32:46,862 --> 00:32:50,034 screaming for a full on search. 789 00:32:50,068 --> 00:32:53,896 I asked him, point blank, to his face, 790 00:32:53,931 --> 00:32:55,724 "So, weren't you worried, 791 00:32:55,758 --> 00:32:57,551 "when you woke up and she's just gone?" 792 00:32:57,586 --> 00:32:58,896 He goes, "Nah. 793 00:32:58,931 --> 00:33:00,758 "I thought she went over to a friend's house." 794 00:33:00,793 --> 00:33:02,310 I'm like, "Really? Did you call the friend?" 795 00:33:02,344 --> 00:33:03,344 Because I'd be worried. 796 00:33:03,379 --> 00:33:04,965 Well, but you know who was tremendously worried 797 00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:06,586 and doing everything that you've just described 798 00:33:06,620 --> 00:33:07,793 is her parents. 799 00:33:07,827 --> 00:33:10,793 So, Tommy Ballard was so focused on this search, 800 00:33:10,827 --> 00:33:13,413 that he himself was going out 801 00:33:13,448 --> 00:33:15,068 to rivers and to the woods, 802 00:33:15,103 --> 00:33:16,275 and he was looking for her. 803 00:33:16,310 --> 00:33:18,517 he family was paying for billboards, 804 00:33:18,551 --> 00:33:21,172 saying "Brooks Houck, where is Crystal Rogers?" 805 00:33:21,206 --> 00:33:22,586 He was dealing with this head on, 806 00:33:22,620 --> 00:33:24,793 and of course, as we know, then he goes on to be killed. 807 00:33:24,827 --> 00:33:27,206 Fallon, I wonder if you have any insight 808 00:33:27,241 --> 00:33:29,000 into potential motive 809 00:33:29,034 --> 00:33:32,413 behind the death of Crystal Rogers' father. 810 00:33:32,448 --> 00:33:35,241 Um, and also, is it still classified as a hunting accident? 811 00:33:35,275 --> 00:33:39,344 Or has it at least been moved to a homicide investigation? 812 00:33:39,379 --> 00:33:42,275 Oh, it was originally classified as a hunting accident 813 00:33:42,310 --> 00:33:44,586 but now that it's a homicide investigation. 814 00:33:44,620 --> 00:33:47,275 But in terms of Crystal Rogers' family, 815 00:33:47,310 --> 00:33:49,000 the Ballard family... 816 00:33:49,034 --> 00:33:51,413 If there's one thing you know about the Ballard family, 817 00:33:51,448 --> 00:33:54,034 they love each other, and, um... 818 00:33:54,068 --> 00:33:56,931 Tommy Ballard loved Crystal so much. 819 00:33:56,965 --> 00:34:00,310 He wanted to find her. He was starting his own investigation. 820 00:34:00,344 --> 00:34:04,137 Because he worked relentlessly to try and bring her back home. 821 00:34:04,172 --> 00:34:06,655 He wanted answers and he was going to find them, 822 00:34:06,689 --> 00:34:07,620 no matter what. 823 00:34:07,655 --> 00:34:10,655 And the idea, the thinking in Bardstown 824 00:34:10,688 --> 00:34:13,000 is that maybe he was getting a little too close 825 00:34:13,034 --> 00:34:14,688 to finding Crystal, 826 00:34:14,724 --> 00:34:16,688 and then his life was taken. 827 00:34:17,206 --> 00:34:18,793 Fallon, is it true 828 00:34:18,827 --> 00:34:21,379 that Brooks Houck's new girlfriend 829 00:34:22,688 --> 00:34:27,000 was caught tearing down Solve My Murder posters? 830 00:34:28,447 --> 00:34:29,447 That is correct. 831 00:34:29,482 --> 00:34:32,447 she ripped them from a corner gas station-- 832 00:34:32,482 --> 00:34:34,068 That she said while she was pumping gas. 833 00:34:34,103 --> 00:34:36,585 And she got arrested for that. 834 00:34:36,620 --> 00:34:39,931 Her name is also Crystal. Her name is Crystal Maupin. 835 00:34:39,965 --> 00:34:44,379 And the judge court-ordered her to write an apology 836 00:34:44,413 --> 00:34:45,793 -to Sherry Ballard, Crystal's mom. -[Nancy] Okay, wait, wait. 837 00:34:45,827 --> 00:34:48,655 Fallon. Fallon, slow down, just a moment. 838 00:34:48,688 --> 00:34:51,447 So Brooks Houck's new girlfriend, 839 00:34:51,482 --> 00:34:52,793 also named Crystal, 840 00:34:52,827 --> 00:34:54,206 -Crystal Maupin... -Mm-hmm. 841 00:34:54,241 --> 00:34:58,310 ...was actually taking down "Solve My Murder Case", 842 00:34:58,344 --> 00:35:00,068 with Crystal's picture on it? 843 00:35:00,103 --> 00:35:01,793 Crystal Rogers' picture on it? 844 00:35:01,827 --> 00:35:03,896 Why was she tearing those posters down? 845 00:35:04,896 --> 00:35:06,620 Well, there was no picture on the signs. 846 00:35:06,655 --> 00:35:08,689 Most of them say "Solve these murders", 847 00:35:08,724 --> 00:35:10,862 "Prayers for Tommy Ballard", "Prayers for Crystal". 848 00:35:10,896 --> 00:35:12,896 But she said she was taking them down, 849 00:35:12,931 --> 00:35:14,724 uh, because it wasn't true. 850 00:35:14,758 --> 00:35:17,793 It wasn't true what they were saying about her boyfriend. 851 00:35:17,827 --> 00:35:19,724 So she took it upon herself 852 00:35:19,758 --> 00:35:21,344 to take those signs. 853 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:23,862 Fallon Glick, WDRB, 854 00:35:23,896 --> 00:35:25,137 thank you for being with us. 855 00:35:25,172 --> 00:35:26,000 When we get back, 856 00:35:26,034 --> 00:35:28,000 this case gets even more bizarre. 857 00:35:28,034 --> 00:35:31,448 There's another suspect. Joseph Lawson. 858 00:35:40,586 --> 00:35:41,586 We've taken a look 859 00:35:41,620 --> 00:35:43,862 at two of the Houck brothers. 860 00:35:43,896 --> 00:35:46,827 Nick Houck and the brother, Brooks Houck. 861 00:35:46,862 --> 00:35:49,344 But who is Joseph Lawson? 862 00:35:49,379 --> 00:35:52,862 Is he somehow tied to all of this? 863 00:35:52,896 --> 00:35:55,241 Crystal's murder and her father's murder? 864 00:35:55,275 --> 00:35:57,172 According to WDRB TV, 865 00:35:57,206 --> 00:36:00,448 five women have accused Lawson of assaulting them 866 00:36:00,482 --> 00:36:02,793 or threatening them since 2009. 867 00:36:02,827 --> 00:36:05,068 Now he shares children with two of them. 868 00:36:05,103 --> 00:36:07,655 He was accused of choking and hitting one woman. 869 00:36:07,689 --> 00:36:09,655 And convicted of a misdemeanor assault, 870 00:36:09,689 --> 00:36:12,931 and ordered to be on two years of probation. 871 00:36:12,965 --> 00:36:16,448 Well, it's certainly not a very good track record. 872 00:36:16,482 --> 00:36:17,965 We don't know a lot about him 873 00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:19,827 but this is what I do know. 874 00:36:19,862 --> 00:36:22,448 He's charged with conspiring to commit murder, 875 00:36:22,482 --> 00:36:24,379 and he's charged with tampering with evidence 876 00:36:24,413 --> 00:36:28,275 between July 3 and July 4, 2015, 877 00:36:28,310 --> 00:36:31,000 which is exactly when Crystal Rogers 878 00:36:31,034 --> 00:36:32,413 "goes missing", 879 00:36:32,448 --> 00:36:34,448 aka was murdered. 880 00:36:34,482 --> 00:36:35,827 What about it, Derrick? 881 00:36:35,862 --> 00:36:37,517 Well there's a couple of things here. I'm fascinated by this. 882 00:36:37,551 --> 00:36:39,758 So we talked about the driveway in the previous segment. 883 00:36:39,793 --> 00:36:40,896 And I think that's critical here. 884 00:36:40,931 --> 00:36:43,206 Because as a detective, what I wanna do 885 00:36:43,241 --> 00:36:46,793 is go after the person with the least involvement but the most to lose. 886 00:36:46,827 --> 00:36:49,172 And by charging him with that conspiracy, 887 00:36:49,206 --> 00:36:51,689 he can be impl-- he can be sentenced to the same thing 888 00:36:51,724 --> 00:36:53,310 as Brooks, if he did it. Right? 889 00:36:53,344 --> 00:36:56,275 So, let's say Brooks calls Steve Lawson, 890 00:36:56,310 --> 00:36:58,413 which is Joseph Lawson's father. 891 00:36:58,448 --> 00:37:01,551 And supposedly, Steve Lawson worked for Brooks. 892 00:37:01,586 --> 00:37:05,206 Something happens that night. He allegedly called Steve Lawson that night. 893 00:37:05,241 --> 00:37:07,344 Calls him. Somehow Joseph gets involved. 894 00:37:07,379 --> 00:37:08,724 You're talking July 3. 895 00:37:08,758 --> 00:37:11,034 -That's right. He calls him-- -The night that she goes missing. 896 00:37:11,068 --> 00:37:12,482 He calls him that evening. 897 00:37:12,517 --> 00:37:15,103 And he doesn't talk to Joseph directly, as far as we know. 898 00:37:15,137 --> 00:37:16,931 But somehow, Joseph is involved. 899 00:37:16,965 --> 00:37:18,724 And then Joseph ends up over at this driveway. 900 00:37:18,758 --> 00:37:20,517 Maybe he disposes of something. 901 00:37:20,551 --> 00:37:22,344 So, he didn't have a lot of involvement with this 902 00:37:22,379 --> 00:37:24,103 but, yeah, they are charging him the same way. 903 00:37:24,137 --> 00:37:25,310 So you attack him, 904 00:37:25,344 --> 00:37:27,137 because he's gonna be the most willing 905 00:37:27,172 --> 00:37:29,275 to work with police. And if you think about it, 906 00:37:29,310 --> 00:37:31,827 right after Joseph was arrested, who gets arrested? 907 00:37:31,862 --> 00:37:33,620 -Exactly. Brooks Houck. -Brooks. Brooks gets arrested. 908 00:37:33,655 --> 00:37:35,620 And here-- And here's a really interesting tie 909 00:37:35,655 --> 00:37:37,586 to some of the domestic violence that you mentioned earlier. 910 00:37:37,620 --> 00:37:39,275 The allegations of domestic violence. 911 00:37:39,310 --> 00:37:40,896 In October, 2020, 912 00:37:40,931 --> 00:37:42,620 one of his alleged domestic violence victims 913 00:37:42,655 --> 00:37:43,862 wrote a letter to the court. 914 00:37:43,896 --> 00:37:45,206 And in that letter she said, quote, 915 00:37:45,241 --> 00:37:49,103 "Joseph is also assisting in a federal investigation." 916 00:37:49,137 --> 00:37:52,586 The FBI took over the Crystal Rogers investigation in 2020. 917 00:37:52,620 --> 00:37:55,103 To your point, he then gets arrested in September. 918 00:37:55,137 --> 00:37:57,137 -[Derrick] Yep. -One month later, Brooks get arrested. 919 00:37:57,172 --> 00:37:59,310 So, as you noted, um, probably it's a lot-- 920 00:37:59,344 --> 00:38:02,551 [Nancy] I got a curveball for you. For both of you. You ready? 921 00:38:02,586 --> 00:38:05,724 What about Grandma? 922 00:38:05,758 --> 00:38:07,655 -Oh... -This-- Oh, this is crazy. 923 00:38:07,689 --> 00:38:11,000 Grandma, the Houcks' grandmother 924 00:38:11,034 --> 00:38:12,931 owns a white Buick. 925 00:38:12,965 --> 00:38:16,448 A white Buick was seen at the ho-- Houck farm, 926 00:38:16,482 --> 00:38:18,724 thirty acres, where Crystal was last seen alive 927 00:38:18,758 --> 00:38:20,137 that-- that we know of. 928 00:38:20,172 --> 00:38:23,758 A white Buick was there, that night, July 3rd. 929 00:38:23,793 --> 00:38:25,586 That's just a tenuous connection. 930 00:38:25,620 --> 00:38:28,137 But then, when they asked the grandma 931 00:38:28,172 --> 00:38:30,310 to come and testify at grand jury, 932 00:38:30,344 --> 00:38:32,724 she actually refused to. 933 00:38:32,758 --> 00:38:34,793 And immediately sold the car 934 00:38:34,827 --> 00:38:37,931 about a week or two after Crystal goes missing. 935 00:38:37,965 --> 00:38:39,344 [Mara] I love that you brought that up. 936 00:38:39,379 --> 00:38:41,310 because when you look at the family ties alleged in this case... 937 00:38:41,344 --> 00:38:43,482 You have Nick, you have Brooks 938 00:38:43,517 --> 00:38:45,517 you have, now, the grandmother. 939 00:38:45,551 --> 00:38:47,137 Then prosecutors revealed 940 00:38:47,172 --> 00:38:49,655 the sister, allegedly, secretly recorded 941 00:38:49,689 --> 00:38:51,586 -the grand jury testimony. -[Derrick] That's right. 942 00:38:51,620 --> 00:38:54,103 -So that she could allow-- -You gotta say that again. 943 00:38:54,137 --> 00:38:55,310 -So... -Slow it down. 944 00:38:55,344 --> 00:38:56,758 I could not believe this. 945 00:38:56,793 --> 00:38:58,034 And this was a shock to everybody. 946 00:38:58,068 --> 00:39:00,275 At one of the hearings about bail, 947 00:39:00,310 --> 00:39:03,965 prosecutors revealed that they had a recording, an audio recording 948 00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:07,068 of the sister, Rhonda's grand jury testimony, 949 00:39:07,103 --> 00:39:08,206 which, it is illegal 950 00:39:08,241 --> 00:39:10,000 to record a grand jury testimony. 951 00:39:10,034 --> 00:39:11,724 And they heard a man on the tape, 952 00:39:11,758 --> 00:39:13,344 which they believe to be Brooks, 953 00:39:13,379 --> 00:39:14,758 talking her into doing it, 954 00:39:14,793 --> 00:39:17,724 and saying, "Nicholas will know where to find it." Presumably Nick. 955 00:39:17,758 --> 00:39:20,344 So this whole thing, alleged-- as it's alleged, 956 00:39:20,379 --> 00:39:22,068 -is a family affair. -[Derrick] Hmm. 957 00:39:22,103 --> 00:39:26,379 So, bottom line I've put on many a case in front of the grand jury. 958 00:39:26,413 --> 00:39:29,000 I guess, now I'll have to frisk the witnesses 959 00:39:29,034 --> 00:39:31,586 to see if they've got a cellphone, recording the whole time. 960 00:39:31,620 --> 00:39:36,689 But, reportedly, the reason that they were recording their grand jury testimony, 961 00:39:36,724 --> 00:39:38,379 is so they could compare notes. 962 00:39:38,413 --> 00:39:40,413 So this one can hear what that one will say 963 00:39:40,448 --> 00:39:41,655 and keep the story straight. 964 00:39:41,689 --> 00:39:45,862 Of course, they are denying all of this. 965 00:39:45,896 --> 00:39:49,793 And everyone, so far, is pleading not guilty. 966 00:39:49,827 --> 00:39:50,896 But I know this. 967 00:39:50,931 --> 00:39:54,034 We still don't have Crystal Rogers' body. 968 00:39:54,068 --> 00:39:56,379 That's gonna be huge, especially when you have a case like this 969 00:39:56,413 --> 00:39:58,586 where you're trying to prove not only that she is no longer with us, 970 00:39:58,620 --> 00:40:00,310 but that she was killed by another. 971 00:40:00,344 --> 00:40:01,655 But I also think Tommy's death-- 972 00:40:01,689 --> 00:40:03,103 Tommy Ballard is gonna play into this-- 973 00:40:03,137 --> 00:40:05,068 is gonna play into this, significantly 974 00:40:05,103 --> 00:40:06,827 If they can tie back this gun to him, 975 00:40:06,862 --> 00:40:09,689 which is gonna be based on classification of the firearm, 976 00:40:09,724 --> 00:40:11,103 caliber, uh... 977 00:40:11,137 --> 00:40:13,620 striations on the casing, if they have that. 978 00:40:13,655 --> 00:40:15,034 A fire pin indentation. 979 00:40:15,068 --> 00:40:16,655 If they can mat-- They have the gun. 980 00:40:16,689 --> 00:40:17,862 So they have something to compare it to. 981 00:40:17,896 --> 00:40:20,413 And I'm hoping they have a shell casing in Tommy's case 982 00:40:20,448 --> 00:40:22,000 that you could have Nick being arrested as well. 983 00:40:22,034 --> 00:40:23,620 But we can't forget we are dealing with 984 00:40:23,655 --> 00:40:25,896 a defendant with a lot of money 985 00:40:25,931 --> 00:40:27,068 so the defense can put on a very, very good case. 986 00:40:27,103 --> 00:40:29,137 [Nancy] And a lot of connections. 987 00:40:29,172 --> 00:40:32,862 Guys, October is domestic violence awareness month. 988 00:40:32,896 --> 00:40:35,896 In its annual No Excuse For Abuse campaign, 989 00:40:35,931 --> 00:40:38,655 ID is partnering with No More 990 00:40:38,689 --> 00:40:41,620 to help in domestic abuse and sex violence. 991 00:40:41,655 --> 00:40:44,862 To learn more about how you can find help, 992 00:40:44,896 --> 00:40:47,586 to support survivors and to contribute, 993 00:40:47,620 --> 00:40:51,344 go to noexcuseforabuse.com. 994 00:40:51,379 --> 00:40:54,103 In the coming weeks, we will bring you 995 00:40:54,137 --> 00:40:58,000 the biggest crime stories making headlines in our great country. 996 00:40:58,034 --> 00:41:00,689 And some cases you may never have heard of. 997 00:41:00,724 --> 00:41:04,586 On behalf of our friends, Mara ad Derrick, 998 00:41:04,620 --> 00:41:06,206 thank you for being with us. 999 00:41:06,241 --> 00:41:07,689 I'll see you next week, friend. 82039

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