Original subtitles

[narrator] A bombshell report about the University of Idaho murders.

What survivors may have heard

as Bryan Kohberger allegedly murdered four of their friends

just feet away from them, in the middle of the night.

A big question: Where is the murder weapon?

And the twisted murder case of Crystal Rogers.

Her ex-boyfriend accused of the killing.

His brother failed a lie-detector test.

And now the cops wanna know,

is any of it tied to another killing,

Crystal's father?

Mara S. Campo,

Derrick Levasseur, and Nancy Grace.

This week onCrimefeed.

It's the case that shocked the nation in November.

A gruesome quadruple homicide

that shattered a small town in Idaho.

The trial of Bryan Kohberger was set to start this month,

but now developments.

Private investigator Derrick Levasseur

and investigative journalist Mara S. Campo

here as always.

Mara, what's the latest?

Well, Nancy, the one year anniversary

of this gruesome crime is approaching.

And the trial for the suspect charged with killing

four young students will soon be underway.

Here's that story.

On a frigid morning in November, 2022,

the small, quiet town of Moscow, Idaho, was devastated

after police found the dead bodies

of four Idaho University students

in a home they rented just off campus.

Best friends, Kaylee Goncalves and Madison Mogen,

both 21, were found in the third floor bedroom.

Xana Kernodle and her boyfriend Ethan Chapin, both 20,

were discovered on the second floor.

All four victims were brutally stabbed

multiple times with a large knife.

After searching the home,

police were unable to find the murder weapon.

But, they did discover something interesting,

a knife sheath lying on the bed next to Madison's body.

Weeks went by without any answers.

But after a painstaking search,

police finally zeroed in on a white Hyundai Elantra

at nearby Washington State University.

The owner of the vehicle?

Twenty-eight-year-old Ph.D. student, Bryan Kohberger.

And when Kohberger's phone records

show him near the crime scene,

the case finally heats up,

and the mysterious knife sheath

becomes a critical piece of evidence.

DNA found on the sheath was tested against

DNA found in Kohberger's trash.

The results were a match.

And on December 30th, 2022,

Kohberger was arrested and charged for the murder

of Kaylee, Madison, Xana, and Ethan,

four innocent, young students,

whose lives were tragically stolen.

You know, Mara, I believe, very firmly,

that even without the DNA match,

there would be an incredible amount

of circumstantial evidence.

I mean, can we just get real for one moment?

When police moved in on Kohberger's family home in the Poconos...

Now remember, Kohberger come

thousands of miles across the country

in his Elantra with his father.

He gets there for Thanksgiving break.

When the cops finally arrest him,

wait for it,

he's standing in the kitchen

in his underwear and a shirt

with plastic gloves on, separating the trash

and putting it in individual trash bags.

Who on a jury is not gonna say,

"He's obviously hiding evidence!"

Well, and they had also seen him

putting his family's trash into some of the neighbor's trash cans.

So, there are things like that that happened in Pennsylvania.

But in my opinion, some of the most compelling

-circumstantial evidence, if you will... -[Nancy] Oh, yeah.

...is the phone records and the movements of the car.

So, what investigators were able to do is very clever.

They paired the movements of the car with the phone records.

And what they found is that the phone

left his home around 2:45 am the morning of the murders.

It was then off, or on airplane mode,

between 3:00 am and 5:00 am,

which is when the murders took place.

Then return back to his home,

and then back to the scene of the crime the following morning.

-That would be very hard to explain. -You know what's interesting,

though, with that is the fact that,

okay, he turned his phone off. People turn their phones off once in a while.

But the problem is, he hadn't done that

weeks or months prior to that.

But, I wanna go back to the DNA real quick,

because although I agree with you,

I don't know if we need it,

the defense is attacking the genetic genealogy.

But, it was obtained legally.

They got it from the trash, that's abandoned property.

But let's not forget that after Kohberger was arrested,

he was brought in, they took a direct DNA sample,

and it matched the sheath.

So, I don't understand why they're going after

-the genetic genealogy when they have a direct match. -I'll tell you why, Derrick.

-They have to. -Because they have to.

-[Derrick] They have to. Yeah, they have to. -Yes, yes.

And as to you, you're preaching to the choir.

I am all about the digital footprint

Kohberger left behind.

And I went to Idaho,

and I did this at night, in the wee hours of the night, yes,

and drove that very circuitous route.

From the crime scene

all the way back to his home, his apartment in Pullman.

Now you know, he could've driven

about nine minutes and gotten home.

But that night, the night of the murders,

he drove the circuitous route.

It took him about an hour to get home.

It was on a two-lane, no lights, no people, nothing.

Um, another thing on this DNA attack,

as Derrick Levasseur correctly stated,

they're attacking it because

they've got to attack it.

-Right. -It's, um, one in, I believe, eight,

uh, five octillion, or three octillion a match.

Did you know that that's more people

than have ever lived on the planet Earth so far?

That's how damning that DNA match is

on the, uh, snap on that sheath.

Yeah, I've seen this in my cases too,

where the evidence is so good, the defense has to go after how it was obtained.

-But again, they're going after evidence... -[Nancy] Smart.

...that doesn't necessarily matter.

-Again, he was brought in, they got the DNA. -[Nancy] Oh, yes.

It's a direct match. It's similar to, uh, Rex Heuermann.

-Right? Where they got the pizza crust. -Mmm-hmm.

-That was the preliminary match-- -The dad's DNA.

-But they got the dad's DNA in this case... -Mmm-hmm.

...from the trash can, which was illegally-- which was legally obtained,

because as you know, it's abandoned property.

The police have the right to seize that property.

-They test it. That's how they get the familial match. -[Nancy] Mmm-hmm.

They arrest Kohberger, they bring him in.

Now they have a direct match from Kohberger,

Bryan Kohberger, not the dad, to the sheath itself.

It's game over.

-Now, they just got to explain it that simply. -It's game over.

-Maybe you guys should make the opening statements. -[Derrick] Yeah.

Well, but I think some of the other evidence

that's very compelling, and also very relatable to,

you know, a layperson who would be on the jury,

is the eyewitness testimony from the roommate

who was, uh, was unharmed,

-who was awake at the time. -[Nancy] Uh, Dylan Mortensen.

She said that she opened her door

after she had heard a number of noises

throughout the time of the murders.

-And she saw the person, presumed to be the killer... -[Derrick] Hmm.

...walk directly past her.

She was able to provide a partial description

because she said he was wearing a COVID mask.

But that lines up.

And then there's also a lot of evidence

that suggest, um, that he was stalking these girls,

and he was in the area

-prior to the murders having taken place. -[Nancy] Oh!

-And that's gonna be very difficult to explain. -Yes! Twelve times,

-Mara. He has been driving... -[Mara] Twelve times in that area.

-...by their home. -[Derrick] Mmm-hmm.

Oh, speaking of driving,

so glad you said that.

I believe his vehicle is a 2015 Elantra.

And in 2011,

is when Elantras began to have navigation systems.

Which means, and we saw this in Alex Murdaugh.

I hate to keep using him and Scott Peterson as an example,

but frankly, they're like the poster children for cases,

uh, to prove legal points.

But in Murdaugh, remember,

the nav system doesn't just show where you've been,

or how long you were there,

it shows when you turn you car on,

when you turn the ignition, when you let the windows up,

when you take off, where you go, when you stop,

when you put it in park.

And that's very valuable in this case,

all that nav system data.

And then also paired with the surveillance video from the neighborhood

that shows on the night of the murder

at the time that the murders were taking place,

this same car was circling the house three times.

The fourth time around, it stops.

And then it's seen speeding away from the crime scene

after the time that the murders were committed.

And then, if we're going back to the information

that suggests there was motive related to stalking,

we have, as you mentioned, him in the area 12 times before. Why?

He was reportedly at the place

where two of the victims worked. It was a restaurant.

He had been there a couple times before.

He was reportedly following the victims,

three of them on social media,

even though they were not following him back.

-That's gonna be very difficult to explain. -[Nancy] Hey,

he's right. Well, you're both right.

But what you said is, with the DNA evidence,

they used the short tandem repeat analysis,

uh, to get this DNA match.

That's practically unassailable in court.

So, what they're gonna have to do is just what you said, Derrick,

they're gonna attack how it was obtained.

I've been thinking about, "How can the state

fight back and defeat that before it even comes up?"

I thought of something. Bodycam.

All the cops going in there,

well hopefully not a lot to not contaminate the scene,

but hopefully they were wearing their bodycams,

so it shows no one is tampering with evidence,

no one is destroying the crime scene.

You know, I'm kind of angry right now, and I'll tell you why.

On top of everything else,

but just recently a report came out

that the two surviving roommates

that were home that night, that were not killed,

it would be Dylan Mortensen and Bethany Funke,

were texting during the killings.

And the father of one of the victims, Mr. Goncalves,

has come out and said, "That's absolutely not true."

What is wrong with people?

Why are they putting falsehoods out there

that just hurt the victim's families?

Yeah, and we're also talking, I mean these are college students

they're in their twenties.

You know, so... so the idea that they would be up late and texting and

not necessarily picking up on, you know, clues that something was wrong

I mean attacking those girls after what they've been through is just awful.

One final thing. DNA is huge. I think that's one selling point in this case.

But also Kohberger you talked about the vehicle, the Elantra,

police officers, other departments have him in the car, on body cam,

driving that vehicle can't say he doesn't drive it

and secondly his... his cellphone coordinates matched the location of that vehicle

that entire night.

So he can't say, "Hey, I wasn't in the car there."

They had his GPS coordinates from his cellphone following him

-in the same direction of the car. -And the alibi, I like to take

long drives at night alone, okay.

-Yeah. -Guys, when we come back,

a former FBI agent gives us

the analysis and a potential motive in the Kohberger case.

And then the Kentucky murder case of Crystal Rogers.

A lot of questions being asked about her boyfriend's family

and the murder of not only Crystal but of her father too.

Welcome back to, Crimefeed.

Big question, if Bryan Kohberger

is in fact the Moscow Idaho killer, why did he do it?

And where is the murder weapon?

The court has entered a plea of not guilty for him.

He insists he is innocent.

Joining us now, Jennifer Coffindaffer,

former FBI special agent.

Jennifer, thank you for being with us.

And of course as you and I have discussed, many many times, Jennifer,

the state does not need to prove a motive that is not the state's burden.

To get inside Kohberger's head

and figure out why?

But, practically speaking, Jennifer

the jury will want to hear a motive.

The jury definitely wants to hear a motive, they want to understand

why a graduate student,

who was studying criminology, would murder four individuals out of the blue

with no criminal history.

That's something that's hard to really compute.

And there's a reason for it, Nancy.

I think if you look at the choice of victims, which I believe were

pointed at Maddie Mogen and Kaylee Goncalves.

That was the reason, his reason was simply

an incel type theory.

In terms of him being hurt

all these years, rejected all of these years.

-Okay, wait just a minute. -Mmm-hmm.

He's being hurt? How about he's being creepy?

You know, he got kicked out of at least one bar slash restaurant.

Because he would approach women...

Did you know this, Mara listen to this

if a guy comes up to and says,

"Hey, what's your home address?"

I would run for the hills as if I'd seen a monster.

And just so mini, um awkward, not just awkward

but scary moments that Kohberger would have with women.

He got into arguments with his coworkers,

he also reportedly

uh, with a female coworker got,

installed her Wi-Fi in her home,

so, he could look at her, you know surveillance cameras.

They went in a rearranged furniture, so she would come to him,

and ask for help with the Wi-Fi system.

Guy, you don't think that's an incel for sure?

Yeah, I mean it absolutely does speak to that right?

I mean, the awkwardness, the social unsurety of

how to act around other individuals, particularly, women.

It just spoke to really, I think what drove him to this.

Jennifer, I want to ask you a question because I know you've worked cases before.

Sometimes yeah, it could be a motive involving, not feeling

responded to, not feeling seen.

But, also there is an element especially with Kohberger

where he is a PhD student and he thinks he's smarter than everyone.

He's not gonna get into this thinking, "I'm gonna get caught."

He's thinking, "I'm smarter than the police."

"I'm gonna pull this off. I've watched these things before."

"I've studied it. I know where the mistakes were made."

"I can do better, I'm gonna get away with this."

Do you think, that could be an element of it too? Where he just wants to see,

how smart he really is?

I definitely think that factored into it.

And I think really, but for the knife sheath and that DNA

I don't know if we'd be sitting here with Bryan Kohberger charged.

[Nancy] You know, I think incel, the theory of an incel

is a good one, I don't know if I would put throw that to a jury.

Because, I don't know if we have enough to show

that he is truly an incel.

But my understanding of an incel is not that you're awkward around women.

No offence, Derrick. But a lot of guys are they're not incels.

But hatred, hatred,

because they feel rejected,

uh, they feel that they're as you said, they're invisible.

And they develop not just an awkward, um

attitude or demeanor,

they actually hate women, guys.

Take a listen to,

a friend, an acquaintance, of Kohberger's.

He did seem pretty, kind of just socially awkward.

Um, I mean, kind of hard to carry a conversation with.

If I remember correctly

um, but besides that he just mainly just stood to the side,

and was really observant.

And... And so much so that

based on that one small interaction he... you know, knew exactly knew who I was

maybe a month or so later, when I saw him on that hike.

My wife describes it as a death stare.

And like, it kind of like is...

Like you know, you make eye contact with people

but you're not like, constantly and just staring at them.

That's... he would be like constantly like staring at me.

Like, he's trying to like analyze me. That was a feeling I would get...

Jennifer, I spoke to the next door neighbor of Bryan Kohberger.

At the-- his Pullman apartment and the neighbor said that he tried to befriend Kohberger

and that when Kohberger's Dad, moved him there from the Poconos.

The Dad actually came over and said, "Hey, could you be friends with my son?"

He... he doesn't have a lot of friends.

You know, like arranging a play date with a group, for grown men.

But, the neighbor said, he tried to relate to Kohberger

but his wife said, "Do not bring him back to this apartment."

She had a sixth sense, there was just something way off with Kohberger.

Mmm-hmm. And so many people I think

need to follow those senses right?

Think of all the people who would be victimized

um, but for them following their senses.

And she certainly grabbed ahold of that.

Now, I was going to say, Nancy

when you discussed maybe the incel couldn't be strong enough

to bring forth to a jury.

I just look at the state those victims,

are left in, and if that doesn't show sheer hate,

and despise.

But, I'm curious your theory was that he was there for two of the victims

and then the other two were unintended victims.

But then there were two roommates who were unharmed. Why do you think that is?

Well, first off I'm gonna dial down, I really think

he... his intended victim was Maddie Mogen.

And I say that because Kaylee Goncalves had already left.

She was actually returning with a brand new vehicle that nobody had seen.

So, I don't think he would have been familiar.

I also think when he went up to that room

and those two girls were in the bed,

no one was more surprised than him.

He had to kill both of them.

[Nancy] But, the thing is, he could've left right then.

I'm not sure that he knew

that the survivors Dylan Mortensen

and Bethany Funke were even there-- even there.

But, one thing about bringing in incel as a motive,

could be a legal problem with that.

If you bring other bad acts in

that are not approved as a similar transaction,

that's grounds for a reversal.

That's the last thing that judge needs.

Jennifer Coffindaffer, thank you.

Guys, more on the Idaho killings when we come back.

And then, the Kentucky murder case of Crystal Rogers.

Lot of questions being asked about her boyfriend's family,

in the murder of Crystal and her own father.

Welcome back to Crimefeed.

The trial of Bryan Kohberger,

what's the latest? Why the hold up?

And what do we know about the State's evidence?

I am completely obsessed by a new discovery.

Uh, the State has demanded information

from Amazon, from Apple Pay, from PayPal,

but they don't wanna know just what did Kohberger buy.

They want every single on of his... [mimics clicking] clicks.

-[Derrick] Mmm-hmm. -And I'll tell you why I think they're doing it.

Someone said, um,

"Your clicks reveal your heart, your soul and your thoughts."

And they really do.

I'm not gonna ask you right here, pitch on the spot,

"What's the last thing you looked up?"

Or what you ordered.

But, think about Kohberger ordering that Ka-Bar knife,

fixed blade, and the sheath.

You know that sheath was one-- uh, the type that

Marines use,

and they put it on their belt loops

so it doesn't come off in battle.

Yet, he didn't have it attached

and it was left behind.

According to prosecutors, and of course,

we know he's pled "not guilty."

But, he bought the knife

and the sh-- ooh, that's a good picture, Charles.

He bought the knife and the sheath at the same time

on Amazon eight-- oh, and there's the Elantra.

Eight, wait, no, seven months before the murders.

Talk about pre-meditation.

Derrick Levasseur, seven months.

Yeah, I agree, the Ka-Bar's gonna be huge.

But, I also think they have over 51 terabytes of data

that they haven't released yet.

I think the Ka-Bar, the Amazon purchase

is just the top of the-- the top of the evidence that they have there.

But, I think when you get really into it,

you're gonna have a lot of pre-meditation

that may be spelled out right in the digital data.

What else was he looking up, what other cases was he looking up,

what type of-- what type of planning was he doing

as far as the geography surrounding that neighborhood?

I think-- again, when we get-- really get into it,

I think that the Ka-Bar is gonna be the smoking gun

but I think there's gonna be a lot more to it.

Well, when you see the picture of the sheath

and you see the picture of the type of knife that was used,

it really drives home how brutal these killings were.

I mean, this was a hunting knife.

And I-- I've a question, Nancy.

There's something that really has confounded me

and I-- for both of you, I wonder if you have any-- any thoughts on this.

You know, there were no reports of screaming that night.

But, you do have the autopsy showing

that at least one of the victims had defensive wounds.

You also have one of the surviving roommates

saying that she believes she heard a conversation taking place

between the presumed killer and one of the victims.

So, why do you think that-that nobody was screaming for help?

Was he convincing them that perhaps they knew each other?

Was he trying to calm them?

What, perhaps, was taking place

that nobody called out for help for the-- from the other roommates?

Now, we have heard that there are surveillance video, uh,

and I guess they're digging up the theory

that there was a loud thump and there was a cry.

But, nothing really alerted the other two roommates.

But, think about it, they'd all been out partying,

uh, two of them had been over at the Sigma Chi house,

uh, Xana and Ethan.

And, um, the others had been out at a food truck,

they had been at a bar before that, a sports bar.

It's late at night, they're going to sleep,

-they've had a couple of drinks. -[Derrick] Hmm.

Probably, they didn't scream out

because they were dropping off to sleep.

-[Derrick] Yeah-- -[Mara] But, what's so ominous is--

is the roommate reported hearing the male voice say,

"It's okay, I'm going to help you."

[Derrick] Yeah, I think-- I think you're in a situation

and I hate to speculate too much,

but, if they were even aware of it,

which, I'm not completely certain they were,

they might've been in bed,

they might not even know they were about to be attacked.

But, you could have a situation

where you're in bed, you're in your home,

you-you think you're safe.

This-This figure comes into the room,

maybe holding the knife,

what are you gonna do as a human being? You're gonna freeze.

And you-you just want them to leave.

You just wanna be okay.

So, if they say to you, "Hey, listen, stay calm. Everything's gonna be okay."

You-- You're gonna comply.

Because what else can you do in that moment?

And I think b-- if that's what happened

when he attacked, it was-- it was too late.

Well, we're also learning from, uh, Steve Goncalves,

which of course is Kaylee Goncalves' father,

that he believes Kaylee was kind of trapped against the wall,

and... tried to fight back.

In other words, Maddie was lying here,

uh, Kaylee was here,

and the wall-- two walls were here,

the bed was pushed against them.

And if he came for Maddie first,

then there's nowhere for her to go.

-No. -She was really trapped.

I mean, in the middle of the night,

in the dark, you can't see what's going on.

And I've been told that

some of the investigators

actually felt ill when they got to the scene.

And the other thing too.

And there's been other cases where we've seen

video surveillance of it

where a stabbing happens in a matter of seconds.

You can stab someone a lot of times in only a few minutes.

-I mean, it's-- -Hey, another thing.

Have you guys seen this?

He comes back to the scene the next morning.

Yes, and wanna see if police are on the scene yet.

Do you wanna see if the bodies have been discovered yet?

Is there-- Is there medical attention that's being provided?

Is the media there yet?

You wanna go back, presumably,

if this is what took place...

Go back to the scene of the crime

to see what the aftermath is like.

But they had not discovered that those-- the victims were killed yet.

There's also a gratification, too, right?

You wanna see your work.

And of course, let's just say it again.

He has pled not guilty in a court of law.

We are waiting for the jury trial to start.

Don't know when that's going to be.

Meanwhile, on the other side of the country,

the Kentucky murder case of Crystal Rogers.

A lot of questions are being asked.

Not only about her boyfriend,

but about her boyfriend's family.

And the murder of not only her,

but of her father, Tommy Ballard.

Welcome back to Crimefeed.

I'm Nancy Grace.

Here with Mara S. Campo

and Derrick Levasseur.

Next, a mother of five missing over eight years.

Her boyfriend, finally, arrested for murder.

But the case has also bled over

into the lives of both of their families.

Find out why the boyfriend's brother

is now being investigated

in the death of the missing woman's father.

Mara, what is going on?

Nd how are all these family members involved?

Yeah, so many layers to this case, Nancy.

Crystal Rogers was last seen on July 3rd, 2015

on the Kentucky farm where she lived with her boyfriend, Brooks Houck.

Well, now, he's been a main suspect

since, pretty much, day one.

But he was just arrested

and charged for her murder in late September.

So let's take a look at the winding road

that led to Brooks Houck's indictment

eight years after Crystal's disappearance.

[Mara] Crystal Rogers was reported missing

on July 5th, 2015, by her mother,

when no one had heard from her in two days.

Her boyfriend, Brooks Houck,

was reportedly the last one to see her

in his family farm at Bardstown, Kentucky

on the night of July 3rd.

Brooks says, when he woke up the next morning,

Crystal and her car were gone.

The search got underway almost immediately

and Crystal's car was soon found

on the side of a parkway.

Her keys, purse and cellphone, still inside.

Police called in Brooks Houck for questioning.

And it began as a fairly routine interview.

Until Brooks got a call from his brother, Nick Houck.

[cell phone ringing]

Hello. No.

[Mara] A Bardstown police officer

advising him to end the interview, immediately.

I know you told me innocent people got jammed up.

If you're telling me to leave, I'll get up and leave.

[Mara] When Nick inserted himself into the case,

police questioned him as well.

Well because you're telling me I'm lying and I know I'm not.

I know the truth.

You know?

And I'm really 100% honest.

[Mara] And after failing a polygraph test,

regarding Crystal's disappearance,

Nick became heated with his interrogators.

And if you don't wanna believe me, that's your issue, it's not mine.

[officer] It's not just me. I showed you.

I don't give a [bleep] what you're [bleep] computer's saying.

[Mara] Nick was then fired from the Bardstown Police Department

over accusations of

"lying or concealing information

"relate to Crystal's case."

But with both brothers denying involvement

and still no sign of the missing mother of five,

the biggest shock in the case would unfold in November, 2016.

Crystal's father Tommy Ballard

was found dead

by a single gunshot wound to his chest.

By 2020, with no arrests in either case,

the FBI took over

Tearing up the driveway of one of the Houck homes

and repeatedly searching their properties.

Finally, in August and September of this year

agents arrested Brooks Houck

as well as Joseph Lawson,

the son of one of his employees.

In yet another shocking twist,

during Brooks' court hearing earlier this month

prosecutors reveal that Nick

is now officially under investigation too.

[Mara] He recently sold a gun under a false name

that matches the caliber used to kill Tommy Ballard,

Crystal's father, back in 2016.

With us now, Fallon Glick.

Reporter, anchor WDRB TV in Kentucky.

Fallon, thank you so much for being with us.

Oh, what a tangled web we weave,

when first we practice to deceive.

First of all, tell me about the gun

that, reportedly, murdered Crystal's father, Tommy Ballard.

Well, that information came out during

an arraignment hearing for Brooks Houck.

And nobody saw that coming.

It was a bombshell from the prosecutor.

Because we were all there,

covering the case for Brooks Houck,

and then when they dropped the bomb

that Nick was connected to

the murder of Tommy Ballard.

And that was speculation for years in the Bardstown community.

But for the first time, we heard that from an official.

And we also heard from the prosecutor

that Nick Houck sold that gun

under a fake name,

and the FBI now has that gun

and they are doing multiple tests on it.

-And four out of the five points-- -[Nancy] Right.

[Fallon] Those come back to be the gun they believe was the one

used to kill Tommy Ballard.

Well, Fallon, we know it wasn't an accident

or a suicide by Tommy Ballard

because his gun had not been fired.

That's very easy to determine with ballistics.

So now I understand they've got four out of five points matching.

We're waiting to find out if that was Nick's gun.

Another thing about Nick Houck.

Isn't it true that he called to the police department

when his brother Brooks Houck was being interviewed

and told him to stop talking?

Oh, yes. That's 100% true.

And then you can kind of see on that video

from the interrogation room

that Brooks and Nick, kind of, get into a little bit of an argument.

And when Nick was then questioned about this,

he said, "Well, my brother Brooks is

"a very easygoing guy,

"he wants to help with the investigation."

so he said it was his duty as his brother,

to help make sure he wasn't going to incriminate himself.

And the detectives in the case were saying,

"Well, you wanna help your brother here,

"but why didn't you help when Crystal first went missing?

"Why didn't you help with any of those searches?"

So they were asking him some of those questions.

"Well, if you're helping here, why aren't you helping in this area as well?"

-'Cause he's a police officer. -[Nancy] What do you think, Mara?

Well, you know, there have been a lot of questions

about both of the brothers' behavior since the very beginning.

One of the biggest questions is "Why didn't Brooks report--"

Wait, we haven't really told about Crystal, Mara.

She was asleep in the bed.

Beside the boyfriend.

The father of one of her five children.

He says he goes to sleep, she's playing games.

-And he wakes up, she's gone. -[Mara] She's gone.

And he didn't think anything off it?

And he couldn't find her?

[Mara] And what you know is, in my opinion as a mother,

one of the most important aspects of this case.

Because she is often described as his girlfriend.

She's also the mother of his child.

So, if the mother of your child is missing...

And then this is right around the holidays,

it's right before the 4th of July.

Then she doesn't show up for 4th of July festivities,

he still doesn't report her missing.

-[Nancy] You know, I asked him about that. -[slaps table]

I asked Brooks Houck that question

"You're supposed to meet her at the July 4th party, and she never shows up.

"Did you call her?"

And he goes, "No, I didn't think it was that important."

What?

And also, the brother of-- I'm sorry, the brother Nick,

who is a police officer.

This is your nephew's mother.

You would think if you're a police officer

then you would do everything possible

to try and aid in the investigation.

He's accused of the opposite.

According-- He didn't even know her, according to Nick.

He didn't even realize--

Fallon, I wanted to ask you a question real quick.

'Cause I'm seeing different reports on this.

It seems like shortly after they ripped up one of the driveways owned by Brooks,

the case really started to pick up steam.

But I'm seeing two different reports.

I'm seeing that the driveway was of his personal property

and then some-- some are saying that it was his rental property.

Can you tell us which one it was?

So, that property where they ripped up that driveway,

that was a home that Brooks Houck built.

So, we don't know what led the FBI to that house

But Brooks was responsible for building that house,

pouring the concrete.

He took care of everything

to get that house built for a family to move in there.

And you know, you feel bad for the family who lives there now.

Um, but...

the driveway has been replaced and all.

But we don't know what they found.

We don't know what the FBI took away from that search warrant.

[Nancy] Wait a minute. Wait a minute.

Didn't they see multiple construction trucks

leaving with big, huge chunks

of the driveway

on the bed of the truck?

They took the driveway.

And one of the reasons they took that driveway

after they jackhammered it,

cause they had sniffer dogs out there.

Now, they have dogs out there.

And suddenly start-- they start jackhammering a driveway.

I mean, a logical conclusion,

two plus two still equals four,

I think is that the dogs hit.

We don't know that yet.

And again there's a not guilty plea.

We're waiting for this to unfold, in court,

But I'm concerned also about

him possibly getting bond.

Right now he's got a $10 million bond set.

People think, "Oh, he can't make it."

But isn't it true, Fallon Glick,

that at the last hearing,

the prosecutor brough out property titles

that shows he's actually a multi-millionaire?

That's right. He owns about 80-some properties

in the Bardstown area,

and the prosecutor brought out tax assessments

for 66 of those.

So that's not even all of them.

And for 66 of those properties that he owns,

it equals out to about $8.5 million.

-[Derrick whistles] -So if we have all 80-some properties,

the prosecutor was saying,

he could easily make that $10 million bond.

[Mara] But Nancy, if I'm not mistaken, this is a cash bond, right?

So he has to put forth all of it as cash.

He can't use collateral.

He can't put down a percentage.

-So... -Assurity.

And they're-- They're trying to ensure

he stays where he is.

And one of the reasons that the court decided

is because they are concerned

about the safety of other witnesses.

Presumably, incorporating what happened to Tommy Ballard

-into-- into some of that... -I got a question for you guys.

Jump in, Fallon.

If your beloved...

Your husband, your wife, your boyfriend, your girlfriend...

You wake up and they're not there,

I would be lying on the front steps of the police station,

screaming for a full on search.

I asked him, point blank, to his face,

"So, weren't you worried,

"when you woke up and she's just gone?"

He goes, "Nah.

"I thought she went over to a friend's house."

I'm like, "Really? Did you call the friend?"

Because I'd be worried.

Well, but you know who was tremendously worried

and doing everything that you've just described

is her parents.

So, Tommy Ballard was so focused on this search,

that he himself was going out

to rivers and to the woods,

and he was looking for her.

he family was paying for billboards,

saying "Brooks Houck, where is Crystal Rogers?"

He was dealing with this head on,

and of course, as we know, then he goes on to be killed.

Fallon, I wonder if you have any insight

into potential motive

behind the death of Crystal Rogers' father.

Um, and also, is it still classified as a hunting accident?

Or has it at least been moved to a homicide investigation?

Oh, it was originally classified as a hunting accident

but now that it's a homicide investigation.

But in terms of Crystal Rogers' family,

the Ballard family...

If there's one thing you know about the Ballard family,

they love each other, and, um...

Tommy Ballard loved Crystal so much.

He wanted to find her. He was starting his own investigation.

Because he worked relentlessly to try and bring her back home.

He wanted answers and he was going to find them,

no matter what.

And the idea, the thinking in Bardstown

is that maybe he was getting a little too close

to finding Crystal,

and then his life was taken.

Fallon, is it true

that Brooks Houck's new girlfriend

was caught tearing down Solve My Murder posters?

That is correct.

she ripped them from a corner gas station--

That she said while she was pumping gas.

And she got arrested for that.

Her name is also Crystal. Her name is Crystal Maupin.

And the judge court-ordered her to write an apology

-to Sherry Ballard, Crystal's mom. -[Nancy] Okay, wait, wait.

Fallon. Fallon, slow down, just a moment.

So Brooks Houck's new girlfriend,

also named Crystal,

-Crystal Maupin... -Mm-hmm.

...was actually taking down "Solve My Murder Case",

with Crystal's picture on it?

Crystal Rogers' picture on it?

Why was she tearing those posters down?

Well, there was no picture on the signs.

Most of them say "Solve these murders",

"Prayers for Tommy Ballard", "Prayers for Crystal".

But she said she was taking them down,

uh, because it wasn't true.

It wasn't true what they were saying about her boyfriend.

So she took it upon herself

to take those signs.

Fallon Glick, WDRB,

thank you for being with us.

When we get back,

this case gets even more bizarre.

There's another suspect. Joseph Lawson.

We've taken a look

at two of the Houck brothers.

Nick Houck and the brother, Brooks Houck.

But who is Joseph Lawson?

Is he somehow tied to all of this?

Crystal's murder and her father's murder?

According to WDRB TV,

five women have accused Lawson of assaulting them

or threatening them since 2009.

Now he shares children with two of them.

He was accused of choking and hitting one woman.

And convicted of a misdemeanor assault,

and ordered to be on two years of probation.

Well, it's certainly not a very good track record.

We don't know a lot about him

but this is what I do know.

He's charged with conspiring to commit murder,

and he's charged with tampering with evidence

between July 3 and July 4, 2015,

which is exactly when Crystal Rogers

"goes missing",

aka was murdered.

What about it, Derrick?

Well there's a couple of things here. I'm fascinated by this.

So we talked about the driveway in the previous segment.

And I think that's critical here.

Because as a detective, what I wanna do

is go after the person with the least involvement but the most to lose.

And by charging him with that conspiracy,

he can be impl-- he can be sentenced to the same thing

as Brooks, if he did it. Right?

So, let's say Brooks calls Steve Lawson,

which is Joseph Lawson's father.

And supposedly, Steve Lawson worked for Brooks.

Something happens that night. He allegedly called Steve Lawson that night.

Calls him. Somehow Joseph gets involved.

You're talking July 3.

-That's right. He calls him-- -The night that she goes missing.

He calls him that evening.

And he doesn't talk to Joseph directly, as far as we know.

But somehow, Joseph is involved.

And then Joseph ends up over at this driveway.

Maybe he disposes of something.

So, he didn't have a lot of involvement with this

but, yeah, they are charging him the same way.

So you attack him,

because he's gonna be the most willing

to work with police. And if you think about it,

right after Joseph was arrested, who gets arrested?

-Exactly. Brooks Houck. -Brooks. Brooks gets arrested.

And here-- And here's a really interesting tie

to some of the domestic violence that you mentioned earlier.

The allegations of domestic violence.

In October, 2020,

one of his alleged domestic violence victims

wrote a letter to the court.

And in that letter she said, quote,

"Joseph is also assisting in a federal investigation."

The FBI took over the Crystal Rogers investigation in 2020.

To your point, he then gets arrested in September.

-[Derrick] Yep. -One month later, Brooks get arrested.

So, as you noted, um, probably it's a lot--

[Nancy] I got a curveball for you. For both of you. You ready?

What about Grandma?

-Oh... -This-- Oh, this is crazy.

Grandma, the Houcks' grandmother

owns a white Buick.

A white Buick was seen at the ho-- Houck farm,

thirty acres, where Crystal was last seen alive

that-- that we know of.

A white Buick was there, that night, July 3rd.

That's just a tenuous connection.

But then, when they asked the grandma

to come and testify at grand jury,

she actually refused to.

And immediately sold the car

about a week or two after Crystal goes missing.

[Mara] I love that you brought that up.

because when you look at the family ties alleged in this case...

You have Nick, you have Brooks

you have, now, the grandmother.

Then prosecutors revealed

the sister, allegedly, secretly recorded

-the grand jury testimony. -[Derrick] That's right.

-So that she could allow-- -You gotta say that again.

-So... -Slow it down.

I could not believe this.

And this was a shock to everybody.

At one of the hearings about bail,

prosecutors revealed that they had a recording, an audio recording

of the sister, Rhonda's grand jury testimony,

which, it is illegal

to record a grand jury testimony.

And they heard a man on the tape,

which they believe to be Brooks,

talking her into doing it,

and saying, "Nicholas will know where to find it." Presumably Nick.

So this whole thing, alleged-- as it's alleged,

-is a family affair. -[Derrick] Hmm.

So, bottom line I've put on many a case in front of the grand jury.

I guess, now I'll have to frisk the witnesses

to see if they've got a cellphone, recording the whole time.

But, reportedly, the reason that they were recording their grand jury testimony,

is so they could compare notes.

So this one can hear what that one will say

and keep the story straight.

Of course, they are denying all of this.

And everyone, so far, is pleading not guilty.

But I know this.

We still don't have Crystal Rogers' body.

That's gonna be huge, especially when you have a case like this

where you're trying to prove not only that she is no longer with us,

but that she was killed by another.

But I also think Tommy's death--

Tommy Ballard is gonna play into this--

is gonna play into this, significantly

If they can tie back this gun to him,

which is gonna be based on classification of the firearm,

caliber, uh...

striations on the casing, if they have that.

A fire pin indentation.

If they can mat-- They have the gun.

So they have something to compare it to.

And I'm hoping they have a shell casing in Tommy's case

that you could have Nick being arrested as well.

But we can't forget we are dealing with

a defendant with a lot of money

so the defense can put on a very, very good case.

[Nancy] And a lot of connections.

Guys, October is domestic violence awareness month.

In its annual No Excuse For Abuse campaign,

ID is partnering with No More

to help in domestic abuse and sex violence.

To learn more about how you can find help,

to support survivors and to contribute,

go to noexcuseforabuse.com.

In the coming weeks, we will bring you

the biggest crime stories making headlines in our great country.

And some cases you may never have heard of.

On behalf of our friends, Mara ad Derrick,

thank you for being with us.

I'll see you next week, friend.