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These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated: 1 00:00:04,738 --> 00:00:07,751 The U.S. Patent system lets you patent a thing 2 00:00:07,841 --> 00:00:11,422 and then sue anyone that does that thing. 3 00:00:11,512 --> 00:00:14,558 But what if you could patent anything. 4 00:03:19,933 --> 00:03:22,946 I literally could not defend myself. 5 00:03:23,036 --> 00:03:24,482 I didn't have the money. 6 00:03:24,572 --> 00:03:27,749 So I heard numbers between 4 to 500,000, all the way to a 7 00:03:27,839 --> 00:03:30,883 million dollars for a defense, which may or may not succeed. 8 00:03:30,973 --> 00:03:35,169 This is a game that big companies play because they know they can outspend you. 9 00:03:35,259 --> 00:03:38,652 I think that they misunderstood the language of their own patent. 10 00:03:38,742 --> 00:03:41,289 So it doesn't matter if you're right, it matters 11 00:03:41,379 --> 00:03:43,801 if you have enough money to defend yourself. 12 00:03:43,891 --> 00:03:46,641 I ran out of money, I couldn't fight this case anymore. 13 00:03:46,731 --> 00:03:49,025 And the problem is, if you walk away, uh, 14 00:03:49,115 --> 00:03:51,409 they win by what's called default judgment. 15 00:03:51,499 --> 00:03:53,984 All... it's all consuming, it's all you can 16 00:03:54,074 --> 00:03:56,766 think about, there is unknown downsided play. 17 00:03:56,856 --> 00:03:58,245 You could lose everything. 18 00:03:58,335 --> 00:04:00,489 Their lawyers actually threw a fit and told 19 00:04:00,579 --> 00:04:02,733 us they were going to destroy our business, 20 00:04:02,823 --> 00:04:05,723 and destroy everything we had worked so hard to build. 21 00:04:05,813 --> 00:04:08,463 It's like being accused of a crime you didn't commit, 22 00:04:08,553 --> 00:04:11,229 and not having any way to... To argue that. 23 00:04:11,319 --> 00:04:14,332 So they actually, uh, will win and can take your code 24 00:04:14,422 --> 00:04:19,370 and can take whatever assets your company has if you decide to not fight anymore. 25 00:04:19,460 --> 00:04:24,609 I assumed they made a mistake because nobody can own the patent on a hyperlink, 26 00:04:24,699 --> 00:04:27,312 that's just common technology used on the web. 27 00:04:27,402 --> 00:04:30,019 The plaintiff added my name personally to the suit. 28 00:04:30,109 --> 00:04:33,655 So by continuing to distribute my app, I can ultimately go to jail. 29 00:04:33,745 --> 00:04:35,387 That's what I was afraid of. 30 00:04:35,477 --> 00:04:38,327 You're basically are guilty until you're proven innocent. 31 00:04:38,417 --> 00:04:39,888 It... it consumed me, 100%. 32 00:04:39,978 --> 00:04:43,417 Literally, zero ideas came out of these patents that were of any... 33 00:04:43,507 --> 00:04:45,214 It was the demise of my company. 34 00:04:45,304 --> 00:04:49,018 It could be money flushed down the drain because you're going to lose... 35 00:04:49,108 --> 00:04:53,644 You are stuck in a lawsuit, not of your own making, you did not do anything wrong. 36 00:04:53,734 --> 00:04:55,216 I lost my house as well. 37 00:04:55,306 --> 00:05:00,711 I have no idea who's financing the lawsuit that I got dragged into. 38 00:05:00,801 --> 00:05:05,015 The demand letter that says you have three days to pay or shut down your business. 39 00:05:05,105 --> 00:05:07,055 That was a very scary moment, I felt 40 00:05:07,145 --> 00:05:11,455 I realized really quickly, talking to other business owners 41 00:05:11,545 --> 00:05:13,624 that this wasn't an isolated case. 42 00:05:13,714 --> 00:05:17,628 People try to extort us, again and... It was my best option. 43 00:05:17,718 --> 00:05:18,918 I didn't have an option. 44 00:05:19,008 --> 00:05:22,966 You can't get out, you have to pay this guy to go away. 45 00:05:23,056 --> 00:05:26,796 If you... if you don't have the resources, 46 00:05:26,886 --> 00:05:31,419 to defend yourself the facts from your side could 47 00:05:31,509 --> 00:05:36,996 potentially never be heard and you could lose everything. 48 00:05:38,005 --> 00:05:39,783 And that's the way it is. 49 00:05:39,873 --> 00:05:44,388 Technically what we do... that was so bad that I would say, 50 00:05:44,478 --> 00:05:48,344 "we bought a $200 scanner from office depot, 51 00:05:48,434 --> 00:05:52,658 and put it on our network and plugged it in." 52 00:05:55,188 --> 00:06:01,339 My name is Austin Meyer and I'm a computer programmer, aerospace engineer, and pilot. 53 00:06:01,429 --> 00:06:05,376 As well, I wrote a computer program called x-plane. 54 00:06:05,466 --> 00:06:07,445 X-plane is a flight simulator 55 00:06:07,535 --> 00:06:11,682 that lets pilots practice flying on their personal computers at home 56 00:06:11,772 --> 00:06:14,852 so they can then fly their real airplane more safely. 57 00:06:14,942 --> 00:06:19,672 As well, people that aren't pilots at all enjoy flying x-plane because they 58 00:06:19,762 --> 00:06:24,428 get to enjoy all the thrill of flying without all the cost and the risk. 59 00:06:24,518 --> 00:06:27,898 About five or six years ago, I made a special version of x-plane 60 00:06:27,988 --> 00:06:31,134 for the Google android operating system. 61 00:06:31,224 --> 00:06:36,106 Just like any app developer would, I uploaded my app to the Google store 62 00:06:36,196 --> 00:06:38,976 so anybody that wanted to could download it and fly it. 63 00:06:39,066 --> 00:06:40,066 They did. 64 00:06:40,156 --> 00:06:43,814 Some time went by and then it happened: 65 00:06:43,904 --> 00:06:50,153 I was working at a trade show in Wisconsin when I got a call from a lawyer. 66 00:06:50,243 --> 00:06:54,958 He told me that I was being sued for patent infringement 67 00:06:55,048 --> 00:06:59,096 for putting an app on the Google play store. 68 00:06:59,186 --> 00:07:00,886 Who was suing me? 69 00:07:01,154 --> 00:07:02,154 Google? 70 00:07:02,556 --> 00:07:03,934 Well, 71 00:07:04,024 --> 00:07:05,536 Actually not. 72 00:07:05,626 --> 00:07:08,772 I was being sued by a company called Uniloc. 73 00:07:08,862 --> 00:07:12,576 This is a company I had never even heard of before. 74 00:07:12,666 --> 00:07:18,330 Uniloc claimed to own a patent that described the idea of 75 00:07:18,572 --> 00:07:21,234 looking up a name on a list on a computer. 76 00:07:21,324 --> 00:07:25,511 And since the Google store apparently looks up your name on a list 77 00:07:25,601 --> 00:07:29,788 on a computer, to see if you paid for the app that you're launching, 78 00:07:29,878 --> 00:07:33,964 Uniloc claimed to own the idea of how the Google store works. 79 00:07:34,054 --> 00:07:38,869 And because of this, they were suing myself, and a lot of other people too, 80 00:07:38,959 --> 00:07:44,335 simply for using the Google store to distribute our apps. 81 00:07:44,798 --> 00:07:48,912 Now, Uniloc had nothing to do with the creation of the Google store. 82 00:07:49,002 --> 00:07:52,483 Uniloc had nothing to do with the creation of x-plane. 83 00:07:52,573 --> 00:07:54,585 I never even heard of them before. 84 00:07:54,675 --> 00:07:56,219 But none of that mattered. 85 00:07:56,309 --> 00:08:02,560 They were suing me and many other people, simply for using the Google play store 86 00:08:02,650 --> 00:08:04,950 to distribute our apps. 87 00:08:05,252 --> 00:08:10,901 Now, at this point, the question you should be asking is, what's in the patent? 88 00:08:10,991 --> 00:08:14,026 Does the patent really give Uniloc the right 89 00:08:14,116 --> 00:08:17,007 to sue people for using an online store? 90 00:08:17,097 --> 00:08:18,797 Well, here it is: 91 00:08:19,767 --> 00:08:25,393 This, exactly, is the claim in the patent that Uniloc said we infringed on. 92 00:08:25,483 --> 00:08:28,616 "Computer code executable on an electronic device to prevent 93 00:08:28,706 --> 00:08:32,594 unauthorized access to electronic data stored on the electronic device." 94 00:08:32,684 --> 00:08:33,884 That's it. 95 00:08:34,147 --> 00:08:35,347 That's it. 96 00:08:36,083 --> 00:08:39,597 These words do not include any source code, 97 00:08:39,687 --> 00:08:42,733 that could be of any use to any computer programmer at all. 98 00:08:42,823 --> 00:08:45,235 These words do not help me, or Google, 99 00:08:45,325 --> 00:08:49,206 or anyone else, design, or even use the Google store. 100 00:08:49,296 --> 00:08:53,611 These words just say, that if someone else goes through the trouble 101 00:08:53,701 --> 00:08:58,682 to actually write a computer program that prevents unauthorized access to data, 102 00:08:58,772 --> 00:09:02,804 that whoever has this patent can sue them. 103 00:09:03,076 --> 00:09:06,857 This isn't an invention, this isn't a new idea, 104 00:09:06,947 --> 00:09:10,794 this doesn't contribute one bit of knowledge to the computer industry. 105 00:09:10,884 --> 00:09:13,263 It certainly didn't contribute anything to me. 106 00:09:13,353 --> 00:09:19,202 It just says that whoever wrote down these words, can sue anyone that actually makes, 107 00:09:19,292 --> 00:09:22,460 or in my case uses, an app store. 108 00:09:23,230 --> 00:09:25,108 Next, I looked at the lawsuit. 109 00:09:25,198 --> 00:09:26,998 "Uniloc has been damaged as a result 110 00:09:27,088 --> 00:09:29,988 of defendants infringing conduct described in this count." 111 00:09:30,078 --> 00:09:32,650 See, Uniloc claims they've been "damaged" 112 00:09:32,740 --> 00:09:36,286 by my putting an app on the Google store. 113 00:09:36,376 --> 00:09:41,291 Uniloc only files lawsuits for a living, how can they be damaged 114 00:09:41,381 --> 00:09:46,296 by some guy like me putting a flight simulator on an online store? 115 00:09:46,386 --> 00:09:50,036 I tried to figure out how Uniloc was damaged by looking at their lawsuit, 116 00:09:50,126 --> 00:09:55,205 but, they never really seemed to specify exactly how they've been hurt. 117 00:09:55,295 --> 00:09:56,774 I called a lawyer. 118 00:09:56,864 --> 00:10:02,212 I told him to have the case just tossed out because of it's obvious absurdity. 119 00:10:02,302 --> 00:10:06,238 What the lawyer told me next, sobered me. 120 00:10:06,707 --> 00:10:10,485 He said that I would take about three years 121 00:10:10,575 --> 00:10:14,895 of my life, and $3,000,000 to defend myself... 122 00:10:16,932 --> 00:10:21,031 and at the end of it all, I'd be put on trial, 123 00:10:21,121 --> 00:10:28,138 in front of a jury in the outskirts of Texas that would decide my punishment, 124 00:10:28,228 --> 00:10:30,841 for putting an app on the app store. 125 00:10:30,931 --> 00:10:33,043 I live in South Carolina. 126 00:10:33,133 --> 00:10:37,280 How could I be put on trial in front of a jury in the outskirts of Texas, 127 00:10:37,370 --> 00:10:42,319 for committing the sin of using the Google store to distribute my app? 128 00:10:42,409 --> 00:10:45,961 It was at this moment that I realized 129 00:10:46,213 --> 00:10:51,205 that I'd entered the most terrifying mess of my life. 130 00:10:51,384 --> 00:10:53,334 What I'm about to tell you is shocking. 131 00:10:53,424 --> 00:11:00,816 And I'm inviting you to come with me on my journey to uncover the patent scam. 132 00:11:03,731 --> 00:11:05,081 First thing I want to know: 133 00:11:05,171 --> 00:11:06,844 Who's behind all this? 134 00:11:06,934 --> 00:11:09,634 I hit the 'net to find out. 135 00:11:13,173 --> 00:11:15,819 Controversial patent lawsuits? 136 00:11:15,909 --> 00:11:18,509 What does this company do? 137 00:11:23,483 --> 00:11:27,131 A dozen lawsuits filed just last week? 138 00:11:29,289 --> 00:11:31,068 Let's check out their website. 139 00:11:31,158 --> 00:11:32,158 Hmm. 140 00:11:32,392 --> 00:11:33,952 Members only. 141 00:11:35,162 --> 00:11:39,386 Maybe there's something in their source code. 142 00:11:41,001 --> 00:11:42,681 Ah, there it is: 143 00:11:43,070 --> 00:11:44,782 Patent commercializing? 144 00:11:44,872 --> 00:11:46,572 Reap the rewards. 145 00:11:49,209 --> 00:11:51,409 Who owns this company? 146 00:11:53,313 --> 00:11:55,913 The Marathon Patent Group? 147 00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:57,200 Hmm? 148 00:11:57,384 --> 00:11:58,796 They're not inventors? 149 00:11:58,886 --> 00:12:00,731 They just own patents? 150 00:12:00,821 --> 00:12:05,135 And they're traded on the Nasdaq stock exchange? 151 00:12:05,225 --> 00:12:07,425 What's a patent troll? 152 00:12:11,799 --> 00:12:14,967 So what is a patent troll anyway? 153 00:12:15,969 --> 00:12:22,593 My first trips were to go talk to the experts and find out for myself. 154 00:12:34,587 --> 00:12:38,440 Patent trolling is the practice of taking patents and using them to sue 155 00:12:38,530 --> 00:12:39,837 or threaten to sue others. 156 00:12:39,927 --> 00:12:42,190 It's not then taking those proceeds, and using 157 00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:44,441 it to create the next greatest technology, 158 00:12:44,531 --> 00:12:48,378 but it is basically building a business out of suing or threatening to sue. 159 00:12:48,468 --> 00:12:53,516 Unfortunately, patent trolling has become a lot more common in the last ten years. 160 00:12:53,606 --> 00:12:58,790 Uh, last year, patent trolls sued about 3,600 companies 161 00:12:58,912 --> 00:13:03,014 and, uh, there were hundreds of patent trolls active in the federal court system. 162 00:13:03,104 --> 00:13:07,831 The estimates vary but they generally come over $10 billion a year. 163 00:13:07,921 --> 00:13:11,802 The vast vast majority of plaintiffs are not inventors, 164 00:13:11,892 --> 00:13:15,272 they're people who have purchased patents for nothing, 165 00:13:15,362 --> 00:13:18,075 from bankruptcy estates of failed companies, 166 00:13:18,165 --> 00:13:21,215 or... or they've just purchased patents for very, very little 167 00:13:21,305 --> 00:13:25,215 and their sole goal is to make money by suing people. 168 00:13:25,305 --> 00:13:27,420 It doesn't even matter if the patent 169 00:13:27,510 --> 00:13:30,224 actually should have never have been granted, 170 00:13:30,314 --> 00:13:33,114 the cost of invalidating a patent is so high that 171 00:13:33,204 --> 00:13:36,359 defending yourself in a patent litigation is so high, 172 00:13:36,449 --> 00:13:39,885 that everyone... Almost everyone ends up having to write a check. 173 00:13:39,975 --> 00:13:44,367 "Almost everyone ends up having to write a check." 174 00:13:44,457 --> 00:13:46,804 What kind of check are we talking about here? 175 00:13:46,894 --> 00:13:51,929 Well, as it turns out, the average settlement that a person has to pay 176 00:13:52,019 --> 00:13:57,053 to a patent troll to make the lawsuit against them stop, is $340,000. 177 00:13:58,271 --> 00:14:04,821 That's right, the average person is forced to pay the patent troll $340,000 just 178 00:14:04,911 --> 00:14:11,461 to end the lawsuit because they don't have the $3 million to defend themselves. 179 00:14:11,551 --> 00:14:15,065 When I tell people about my lawsuit, they always say the same thing: 180 00:14:15,155 --> 00:14:18,268 They say, "hey, Austin, if Uniloc says that the Google store 181 00:14:18,358 --> 00:14:21,471 infringes on their patent, why don't they just sue Google?" 182 00:14:21,561 --> 00:14:24,107 Oh, oh, let's think about that for a moment. 183 00:14:24,197 --> 00:14:27,577 If they sued Google, I think Google has $3 million dollars. 184 00:14:27,667 --> 00:14:32,249 Google can defend itself and probably, over years, win. 185 00:14:32,339 --> 00:14:38,421 But, if Uniloc sues as many people as possible that use Google 186 00:14:38,511 --> 00:14:40,858 then think of how many people they can sue 187 00:14:40,948 --> 00:14:45,844 that don't have the $3 million to defend themselves. 188 00:14:46,686 --> 00:14:49,432 Those companies will be forced to settle. 189 00:14:49,522 --> 00:14:52,469 Even if they've done nothing wrong. 190 00:14:52,559 --> 00:14:56,430 And, once it became how obvious it is to make easy money by filing these 191 00:14:56,520 --> 00:15:00,281 patent infringement lawsuits people can't defend themselves against, 192 00:15:00,371 --> 00:15:02,913 you can pretty much figure out what happened next. 193 00:15:03,003 --> 00:15:06,267 Companies like Uniloc were formed. 194 00:15:06,373 --> 00:15:09,920 Companies that exist only to file lawsuits. 195 00:15:10,010 --> 00:15:12,022 Now, here's just how far it can go: 196 00:15:12,112 --> 00:15:16,059 Uniloc, the company suing me, is owned by a much larger company called 197 00:15:16,149 --> 00:15:18,028 the Marathon Patent Group. 198 00:15:18,118 --> 00:15:21,264 The Marathon Patent Group does not make anything. 199 00:15:21,354 --> 00:15:23,066 They don't invent anything. 200 00:15:23,156 --> 00:15:26,303 They just sue the companies that do. 201 00:15:26,393 --> 00:15:31,574 And the Marathon Patent Group is traded on the Nasdaq stock exchange. 202 00:15:31,664 --> 00:15:35,546 That's right, the Nasdaq stock exchange was designed 203 00:15:35,636 --> 00:15:39,518 to foster innovation, and now, the Nasdaq hosts the Marathon. 204 00:15:39,608 --> 00:15:44,310 Patent Group, a company who's only function, is to sue. 205 00:15:45,112 --> 00:15:48,691 And it's all based on holding a patent. 206 00:15:48,781 --> 00:15:51,361 So, are these patents brilliant? 207 00:15:51,451 --> 00:15:53,696 Well, let's take a look at some. 208 00:15:53,786 --> 00:15:56,086 These are real patents. 209 00:15:56,623 --> 00:15:59,036 Method of video gaming over the internet. 210 00:15:59,126 --> 00:16:00,929 Method for voice 211 00:16:01,019 --> 00:16:03,473 communication with an entity, such as a plant. 212 00:16:03,563 --> 00:16:05,275 Snowboard training apparatus. 213 00:16:05,365 --> 00:16:07,565 Animal ear protectors. 214 00:16:07,734 --> 00:16:09,679 Forehead support for a urinal. 215 00:16:09,769 --> 00:16:12,950 A hose to breathe from a toilet bowl. 216 00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:15,318 A reality alternate method. 217 00:16:15,408 --> 00:16:17,554 A domestic animal telephone. 218 00:16:17,644 --> 00:16:20,657 Method to search for event photos on the internet. 219 00:16:20,747 --> 00:16:23,326 Self hair cutting apparatus. 220 00:16:23,416 --> 00:16:25,695 An anti-eating face mask. 221 00:16:25,785 --> 00:16:28,465 Method of swinging sideways on a swing. 222 00:16:28,555 --> 00:16:31,501 Exercising a cat with a laser pointer. 223 00:16:31,591 --> 00:16:34,137 Self-defense weapon key holder. 224 00:16:34,227 --> 00:16:37,040 Apparatus to simulate a high-five. 225 00:16:37,130 --> 00:16:39,309 Dog knows art apparatus. 226 00:16:39,399 --> 00:16:42,545 A bib for use while operating a motor vehicle. 227 00:16:42,635 --> 00:16:45,148 A buttocks kicking apparatus. 228 00:16:45,238 --> 00:16:48,138 A stick that a dog can fetch. 229 00:16:48,341 --> 00:16:52,155 This all seemed just too crazy for me to actually believe. 230 00:16:52,245 --> 00:16:54,895 I had to talk to someone who was experienced in this. 231 00:16:54,985 --> 00:16:57,694 I found a guy by the name of Kevin O'Connor. 232 00:16:57,784 --> 00:17:01,164 Kevin's sold and developed companies worth billions of dollars. 233 00:17:01,254 --> 00:17:03,504 And he was also being sued by a patent troll. 234 00:17:03,594 --> 00:17:07,050 So he knew his way around the block. 235 00:17:11,664 --> 00:17:17,147 Kevin was sued simply for making a website that scans large numbers of product 236 00:17:17,237 --> 00:17:22,325 and then shows you the one that's best for your needs. 237 00:17:22,609 --> 00:17:26,789 So, Kevin, I'm being sued for patent infringement. 238 00:17:26,879 --> 00:17:27,958 That's too bad. 239 00:17:28,048 --> 00:17:29,159 It is not fun. 240 00:17:29,249 --> 00:17:30,628 Let's hear your story. 241 00:17:30,718 --> 00:17:33,570 So December, 2013, we get this letter from law firm and 242 00:17:33,660 --> 00:17:36,914 says we're violating their patent, and they claim to have the 243 00:17:37,004 --> 00:17:40,752 patent that facilitates bilateral, and multilateral decision-making. 244 00:17:40,842 --> 00:17:42,871 That's been around since caveman days, 245 00:17:42,961 --> 00:17:45,809 it's baffling how anyone can have a patent on that. 246 00:17:45,899 --> 00:17:48,046 I mean, it's basically decision-making, 247 00:17:48,136 --> 00:17:51,082 uh, dating all the way back to probably neanderthal days, 248 00:17:51,172 --> 00:17:53,945 uh, people deciding whether to trade chickens for cows. 249 00:17:54,035 --> 00:17:56,807 I mean, it's... it's basically how humans interact, 250 00:17:56,897 --> 00:17:58,897 or communities interact with each other. 251 00:17:58,987 --> 00:18:00,357 They had a patent on it. 252 00:18:00,447 --> 00:18:01,862 Okay, so you got the letter. 253 00:18:01,952 --> 00:18:03,263 What did the letter say? 254 00:18:03,353 --> 00:18:07,254 Uh, the letter basically said, uh, they got this, it's called a demand letter, 255 00:18:07,344 --> 00:18:11,593 they said that, they've got this patent, uh, they believe we're infringing on it. 256 00:18:11,683 --> 00:18:14,741 Uh, we can settle now, or we can through prolonged discovery. 257 00:18:14,831 --> 00:18:17,170 Uh, we're going to have motions in the court, 258 00:18:17,260 --> 00:18:19,544 you're going to have to incur lawyer fees. 259 00:18:19,634 --> 00:18:23,548 You know, the more this goes on, the more expensive it's gonna become for you. 260 00:18:23,638 --> 00:18:25,688 Once you got this lawsuit, what'd you do? 261 00:18:25,778 --> 00:18:29,653 I mean, the first thing you do is you... You research the hell out of it. 262 00:18:29,743 --> 00:18:33,093 You're trying to figure out, you know, one, is this a valid patent? 263 00:18:33,183 --> 00:18:35,398 -Who's behind it? -Who else have they sued? 264 00:18:35,488 --> 00:18:39,038 Uh, we did a lot of research, they kind of picked on the wrong company, 265 00:18:39,128 --> 00:18:42,973 you know, we have one of the largest knowledge graphs in the world, so... 266 00:18:43,063 --> 00:18:45,847 So we did a lot of research. And who is behind this? 267 00:18:45,937 --> 00:18:48,721 Who are these lawyers? Who are these, um, inventors? 268 00:18:48,811 --> 00:18:51,774 -'Inventors' of this patent. -Uh, and we found a pattern. 269 00:18:51,864 --> 00:18:53,614 We found a very disturbing pattern. 270 00:18:53,704 --> 00:18:56,543 Um, it was basically, there was these two... Two people, 271 00:18:56,633 --> 00:18:59,262 um, who we believe met in Harvard Business School, 272 00:18:59,352 --> 00:19:02,532 uh, Eileen Shapiro and Steven... Steven Metz, um, that had 273 00:19:02,622 --> 00:19:06,272 uh, they were not technologists, but somehow, mysteriously, they had some 274 00:19:06,362 --> 00:19:09,095 -I think it was maybe ten... -Uh, technology patents. 275 00:19:09,185 --> 00:19:11,861 You never know who is behind these shell companies, 276 00:19:11,951 --> 00:19:14,251 and in our case, it was Lumen View Technology, 277 00:19:14,341 --> 00:19:17,841 and she was behind it, but there was a series of these shell companies 278 00:19:17,931 --> 00:19:20,537 that were prosecuting these portfolio patents. 279 00:19:20,627 --> 00:19:22,627 Uh, and they were very, very aggressive. 280 00:19:22,717 --> 00:19:25,535 Once we learned all that, I was pissed. I was so pissed. 281 00:19:25,625 --> 00:19:28,745 Uh, I knew we didn't infringe, I knew we could win, 282 00:19:28,835 --> 00:19:30,780 uh, it really just came down to money. 283 00:19:30,870 --> 00:19:33,850 How many dollars have you put into this so far? 284 00:19:33,940 --> 00:19:37,520 We got $350 to $400,000 invested in this. 285 00:19:37,610 --> 00:19:39,301 -In two and a half years? -Yeah. 286 00:19:39,391 --> 00:19:41,429 And it's still not over. 287 00:19:41,519 --> 00:19:42,519 No. 288 00:19:42,615 --> 00:19:46,863 No, it won't be over for... I don't know, another year, year and a half. 289 00:19:46,953 --> 00:19:50,767 How much more money are you gonna spend? 290 00:19:50,857 --> 00:19:54,261 Well, I committed a million, SO, I'll KEEP... I'll KEEP FIGHTING IT. 291 00:19:54,351 --> 00:19:57,807 All right, so I'm being sued by a patent troll right now 292 00:19:57,897 --> 00:20:02,379 for using the Google play store, I've been in this now for about four years, 293 00:20:02,469 --> 00:20:05,882 and there is no end in sight, what do I do? 294 00:20:05,972 --> 00:20:08,472 I get asked this question a lot. 295 00:20:08,562 --> 00:20:10,122 Are you rich? 296 00:20:10,343 --> 00:20:13,856 So, I guess the big question is, can you... can you afford the pain? 297 00:20:13,946 --> 00:20:17,794 So, your lawsuit is a particularly absurd case, which is, 298 00:20:17,884 --> 00:20:22,271 you're being prosecuted not for developing technology in violation, 299 00:20:22,361 --> 00:20:25,606 you're simply using someone else's technology. 300 00:20:25,696 --> 00:20:29,306 As consumers or businesses, we use thousands of technology products, 301 00:20:29,396 --> 00:20:33,248 that could, at any moment, be a violation of thousands of different patents. 302 00:20:33,338 --> 00:20:34,911 I mean, anyone is at risk. 303 00:20:35,001 --> 00:20:39,069 What kind of legal system is when anyone can be guilty of patent infringement 304 00:20:39,159 --> 00:20:41,359 at any given time and their lives destroyed? 305 00:20:41,449 --> 00:20:42,519 I mean, really? 306 00:20:42,609 --> 00:20:46,723 Is this... is this the kind of society that we wanna... We wanna live in? 307 00:20:46,813 --> 00:20:51,325 This is... this is terrible, this is a travesty. 308 00:20:51,951 --> 00:20:52,995 So what do I do? 309 00:20:53,085 --> 00:20:56,772 I tell most people, you're a little deep into it. 310 00:20:56,862 --> 00:20:59,602 I tell most people to settle, it's not worth it. 311 00:20:59,692 --> 00:21:04,541 Why should I settle when I know it's the wrong thing to do? 312 00:21:04,631 --> 00:21:09,612 You know, ask the guy that owns the liquor store uh, why he pays $100 for protection, 313 00:21:09,702 --> 00:21:12,515 and not take a bullet in the head, right? 314 00:21:12,605 --> 00:21:17,754 I mean, the right move is to take a bullet in the head, stand up to the extorter. 315 00:21:17,844 --> 00:21:21,272 Smart move is to pay $100 bucks, get the protection. 316 00:21:21,362 --> 00:21:26,028 I've thought a lot about this problem, just trying to figure out, like, 317 00:21:26,118 --> 00:21:29,018 how do you pull people together to go after him, you know? 318 00:21:29,108 --> 00:21:31,458 How do you build some kind of deterrent system? 319 00:21:31,548 --> 00:21:32,702 It's complicated. 320 00:21:32,792 --> 00:21:37,592 Fighting one off, I'm not sure that's the solution. 321 00:21:39,599 --> 00:21:42,512 If fighting one off isn't the solution, 322 00:21:42,602 --> 00:21:48,585 and settling involves encouraging them to do it again, what's left? 323 00:21:48,675 --> 00:21:51,888 I've... I've gotten to learn the way they legally operate 324 00:21:51,978 --> 00:21:54,063 and set up money, and go after people. 325 00:21:54,153 --> 00:21:57,648 It's a very asymmetrical fight, uh, it's kind of like terrorism, 326 00:21:57,738 --> 00:22:01,998 uh, where they can come in and cost them $400 to file a lawsuit against me. 327 00:22:02,088 --> 00:22:05,868 It costs me $2 million to go call their bluff. No one calls their bluff. 328 00:22:05,958 --> 00:22:07,973 Very few people ever call their bluff. 329 00:22:08,063 --> 00:22:10,556 So it's a brilliant, brilliant, uh, strategy, 330 00:22:10,646 --> 00:22:12,909 and for them, no downside whatsoever. 331 00:22:12,999 --> 00:22:16,174 -For you? -For me, it's nothing but downside. 332 00:22:16,264 --> 00:22:18,948 I think a lot of these patent trolls are sociopaths. 333 00:22:19,038 --> 00:22:21,454 They know the damage and the carnage they 334 00:22:21,544 --> 00:22:24,263 they create in society, they just don't give a shit. 335 00:22:24,353 --> 00:22:26,689 -They don't care. -It's the almighty dollar. 336 00:22:26,779 --> 00:22:28,579 They give greed a bad name. 337 00:22:30,049 --> 00:22:36,733 An idea is not private property, you can't own an idea, it's not possible. 338 00:22:36,823 --> 00:22:38,835 You can't own a concept. 339 00:22:38,925 --> 00:22:43,072 Look, I've been doing I've been inventing for 40 years. 340 00:22:43,162 --> 00:22:44,707 Ideas are cheap. 341 00:22:44,797 --> 00:22:47,805 Turning a good idea into a successful product and company? 342 00:22:47,895 --> 00:22:49,456 That's really, really hard. 343 00:22:49,546 --> 00:22:53,350 What the patent office has done is completely put everything on it's head. 344 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:56,453 They're... they're putting all the value in the idea 345 00:22:56,543 --> 00:22:58,493 and they'll make it extremely expensive 346 00:22:58,583 --> 00:23:01,391 for people like us that are trying to improve the world 347 00:23:01,481 --> 00:23:05,862 by actually creating products and services that benefit others. 348 00:23:05,952 --> 00:23:10,633 So that's Kevin's story and I'm starting to see the tip of the iceberg 349 00:23:10,723 --> 00:23:13,987 in this ongoing national disaster. 350 00:23:14,627 --> 00:23:18,975 The lawsuit against me has been dragging on for about four years now, 351 00:23:19,065 --> 00:23:21,678 and there's no end to it in sight. 352 00:23:21,768 --> 00:23:28,518 I've watched my daughter, grow up from age one to age five, always under the threat 353 00:23:28,608 --> 00:23:34,724 that I'd have to turn over my savings for her future to a lawyer that's suing me 354 00:23:34,814 --> 00:23:37,514 for using the Google store. 355 00:23:37,750 --> 00:23:39,829 This has cost me time. 356 00:23:39,919 --> 00:23:41,998 THAT I'll NEVER GET BACK. 357 00:23:42,088 --> 00:23:46,792 But, am I the only one in this wretched situation? 358 00:23:48,596 --> 00:23:52,243 Coming out of college, I knew that I wanted to be a programmer. 359 00:23:52,333 --> 00:23:55,579 I knew that I wanted to create applications that people enjoyed, 360 00:23:55,669 --> 00:23:57,569 people wanted to use every single day. 361 00:23:57,659 --> 00:24:00,318 So, the idea for ditto really came from watching 362 00:24:00,408 --> 00:24:03,454 thousands of people try to buy glasses in the real world. 363 00:24:03,544 --> 00:24:05,994 And we realized they were really struggling. 364 00:24:06,084 --> 00:24:08,926 You know, that's really what kind of made this exciting, 365 00:24:09,016 --> 00:24:12,066 like, it felt like we were really solving a consumer problem. 366 00:24:12,156 --> 00:24:15,939 Well, I started it in my basement, in 1997, with, uh, two other people. 367 00:24:16,029 --> 00:24:18,629 It was basically just, uh, I wanted to stop annoying 368 00:24:18,719 --> 00:24:20,973 my friends sending them emails all the time. 369 00:24:21,063 --> 00:24:24,063 So I thought, you know, I'll just put all this on a website, 370 00:24:24,153 --> 00:24:26,743 and they can come check it out when they want to. 371 00:24:26,833 --> 00:24:29,034 Okay, time out. Just wait one second here. 372 00:24:29,124 --> 00:24:32,749 This guy is Drew Curtiss, and he runs a website called Fark.com. 373 00:24:32,839 --> 00:24:36,041 He was sued for posting news at his website. 374 00:24:36,131 --> 00:24:38,946 Okay, now I'm gonna reach the patent. 375 00:24:39,036 --> 00:24:41,285 "Writing three key messages, purpose." 376 00:24:41,375 --> 00:24:44,954 "Answer the question, why should I be interested in this?" 377 00:24:45,044 --> 00:24:47,371 Two to three statements that 378 00:24:47,461 --> 00:24:49,899 support the headline and entice the reader. 379 00:24:49,989 --> 00:24:52,989 For example, answer the question; Why is this news? 380 00:24:53,079 --> 00:24:55,533 Present facts or statistics or other evidence to 381 00:24:55,623 --> 00:24:58,077 show why your story is important or interesting. 382 00:24:58,167 --> 00:25:01,331 The statements don't necessarily have to relate to each other, 383 00:25:01,421 --> 00:25:03,112 but must support the headline. 384 00:25:03,202 --> 00:25:05,582 "30 to 40 words in total per highlight." 385 00:25:05,672 --> 00:25:06,872 That's it. 386 00:25:07,039 --> 00:25:08,839 That's the patent. 387 00:25:09,275 --> 00:25:13,890 That's the patent that the patent troll used to sue Drew Curtiss 388 00:25:13,980 --> 00:25:15,992 for posting news at a website. 389 00:25:17,184 --> 00:25:19,084 All right, sorry for the interruption. 390 00:25:19,174 --> 00:25:20,230 Back to the movie. 391 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:23,499 So I kind of flipped over a napkin and started drawing it out, 392 00:25:23,589 --> 00:25:26,044 it was just an exchange of economics for power. 393 00:25:26,134 --> 00:25:28,454 The day my brother got back from Afghanistan 394 00:25:28,544 --> 00:25:30,699 was the day that we actually went live. 395 00:25:30,789 --> 00:25:32,309 And we sold out. We sold out. 396 00:25:32,399 --> 00:25:34,849 We... we did this in a nightclub here in Chicago. 397 00:25:34,939 --> 00:25:39,216 -And, uh, it sold out in about 17 minutes. -We had a lot of fun. 398 00:25:39,306 --> 00:25:41,251 My wife and I worked hand in hand. 399 00:25:41,341 --> 00:25:44,021 And uh, we were the first photographers in the event. 400 00:25:44,111 --> 00:25:47,100 So we've gone to lots of great places, we've photographed 401 00:25:47,190 --> 00:25:49,854 lots of great people, captured memories for them. 402 00:25:49,944 --> 00:25:52,561 Running my own business definitely made me happy. 403 00:25:52,651 --> 00:25:55,351 It was something that, you know, I always wanted to do 404 00:25:55,441 --> 00:25:58,334 and, uh, you know, just having the ability to be creative 405 00:25:58,424 --> 00:26:00,666 and share your creativity with the world was 406 00:26:00,756 --> 00:26:03,139 something that I think everybody wants to do. 407 00:26:03,229 --> 00:26:07,877 Eventually, one of my apps, White Noise, uh, became extremely popular, 408 00:26:07,967 --> 00:26:09,967 even became the number one app on Itunes 409 00:26:10,057 --> 00:26:14,250 and that's when I was able to focus on my startup full time. 410 00:26:14,340 --> 00:26:16,727 I was able to watch folks who came in as 411 00:26:16,817 --> 00:26:20,332 interns from college grow into senior managers in the organization. 412 00:26:20,422 --> 00:26:24,907 And it was almost like getting to, uh, you know, be a parent or at least an uncle. 413 00:26:24,997 --> 00:26:27,664 Uh, it's been the best thing ever. 414 00:26:27,754 --> 00:26:31,004 When you're building something and the first customers say, like, 415 00:26:31,094 --> 00:26:32,550 "Wow, that really helped us." 416 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:35,616 Uh, there's no greater feeling. 417 00:26:36,062 --> 00:26:42,712 It was, uh, December 31st, 2013, and I was with my family ringing in the new year, 418 00:26:42,802 --> 00:26:45,047 not knowing what lay ahead of us. 419 00:26:45,137 --> 00:26:48,184 And, uh, we had champagne glasses in our hand 420 00:26:48,274 --> 00:26:54,802 and at 12:04 a.m. my email lit up on my phone from a patent attorney. 421 00:26:59,719 --> 00:27:02,519 Saying, "I see you've been sued for patent infringement. 422 00:27:02,609 --> 00:27:04,059 Maybe I could represent you." 423 00:27:04,149 --> 00:27:10,005 All of a sudden, on 9/11, in 2013, I received a demand letter. 424 00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:16,683 The demand letter basically stated that I infringed upon a patent, 425 00:27:16,773 --> 00:27:19,882 and it didn't tell me how, or it didn't tell me why, 426 00:27:19,972 --> 00:27:23,022 it just says, "We believe that you infringed upon this patent 427 00:27:23,112 --> 00:27:26,144 and if you do not cease and desist, we're going to sue you." 428 00:27:26,234 --> 00:27:28,434 In February of 2012... 429 00:27:35,722 --> 00:27:38,267 And, uh, I remember it very clearly. 430 00:27:38,357 --> 00:27:42,071 A letter came in the mail, saying, "Dear Doctor Vicinanza," 431 00:27:42,161 --> 00:27:47,409 um, "We understand that, uh, you have certain technologies", 432 00:27:47,499 --> 00:27:52,020 uh, in particular, network-based scanners that," uh, "we feel," uh, 433 00:27:52,110 --> 00:27:59,226 "infringe on our proprietary patent and therefore we suggest that you call us..." 434 00:27:59,316 --> 00:28:03,059 "So you can arrange to get a license to use your equipment." 435 00:28:03,149 --> 00:28:06,575 Yeah, we'd been in business for about 10 years when I got 436 00:28:06,665 --> 00:28:10,057 hit by a patent troll lawsuit in 2011, out of nowhere. 437 00:28:15,061 --> 00:28:19,408 So, it was somebody who was claiming that Fark, and Reddit, and AOL, 438 00:28:19,498 --> 00:28:22,598 and six other companies were infringing on a patent of theirs. 439 00:28:22,688 --> 00:28:25,715 Essentially, it involved emailing press releases to people. 440 00:28:25,805 --> 00:28:29,837 Got a curious phone call from an attorney. 441 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:37,459 That claimed that I was infringing on their patent. 442 00:28:37,549 --> 00:28:40,922 It was a lot of jargon and nonsense and then a bunch 443 00:28:41,012 --> 00:28:44,384 of claims and one of the claims was uh, if you, uh, 444 00:28:44,474 --> 00:28:48,905 scan a document to an email, that's protected under this patent. 445 00:28:48,995 --> 00:28:52,133 What the patent said we were doing wrong was, 446 00:28:52,223 --> 00:28:55,311 taking a document, putting it on a scanner, 447 00:28:55,401 --> 00:28:59,048 and pressing a button, and having that scanned to an email. 448 00:28:59,138 --> 00:29:05,378 The demand letter said nothing about what we were infringing on... 449 00:29:08,259 --> 00:29:11,045 Nothing about what we were doing wrong or what 450 00:29:11,135 --> 00:29:13,796 they were even trying to claim against us. 451 00:29:13,886 --> 00:29:15,832 So, this is usually what you get. 452 00:29:15,922 --> 00:29:18,822 This is, uh, a demand letter. 453 00:29:24,096 --> 00:29:28,320 And it usually comes with a lot of paperwork. 454 00:29:28,935 --> 00:29:34,350 These are, you know, four patents here, and they basically say, 455 00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:40,422 "You're violating something here, one or more of our patents you're violating." 456 00:29:40,512 --> 00:29:42,712 Um, a lot of times they don't even tell you. 457 00:29:42,802 --> 00:29:46,589 In my case, they actually illustrated where they think 458 00:29:46,679 --> 00:29:50,466 I'm infringing on their patent, and it's right here. 459 00:29:50,556 --> 00:29:55,740 When you click this button, it opens Apple's app store. 460 00:29:57,029 --> 00:29:58,407 And that's it. 461 00:29:58,497 --> 00:30:00,197 That's all it is. 462 00:30:00,499 --> 00:30:05,948 A button, that goes out to the internet and opens up Itunes, 463 00:30:06,038 --> 00:30:09,118 and that's... that's a million dollar lawsuit? Really? 464 00:30:09,208 --> 00:30:10,883 And it says right there, 465 00:30:10,973 --> 00:30:15,945 "...Storing results of a two-way interaction to a central location." 466 00:30:17,049 --> 00:30:20,229 That sounds like using the internet. 467 00:30:20,319 --> 00:30:25,534 Later, I discovered I was not alone and that many other small businesses 468 00:30:25,624 --> 00:30:28,470 had been targeted and sent these demand letters, 469 00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:33,175 and they all say pretty much the same thing, they reference a few patents, 470 00:30:33,265 --> 00:30:37,479 uh, and then they claim they wanna get a licensing fee from you. 471 00:30:37,569 --> 00:30:41,884 Uh, if you don't pay them a licensing fee, they're gonna take you to court. 472 00:30:41,974 --> 00:30:44,887 Okay, so you've seen some pretty absurd lawsuits here, 473 00:30:44,977 --> 00:30:48,224 but now, it's time for the mother of them all. 474 00:30:48,314 --> 00:30:51,889 Uniloc, the company that's currently suing me, 475 00:30:51,979 --> 00:30:57,887 was also suing a company called Rackspace, for selling linux computers. 476 00:30:58,224 --> 00:31:00,502 Uniloc's excuse for the lawsuit? 477 00:31:00,592 --> 00:31:07,600 That Uniloc held a patent that described rounding numbers when doing math. 478 00:31:08,100 --> 00:31:14,851 This, because Rackspace's linux computers rounded numbers when doing math. 479 00:31:14,941 --> 00:31:18,441 When someone is sued for doing math, I pretty much wanna talk to them. 480 00:31:18,531 --> 00:31:21,891 I've been accused of running linux. 481 00:31:27,486 --> 00:31:29,866 Because the linux kernel does math. 482 00:31:29,956 --> 00:31:34,270 It rounds, it rounds up or rounds down, they said we violated their patent. 483 00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:37,874 You know what happens when you have a phone and it rotates like that. 484 00:31:37,964 --> 00:31:42,044 We've been accused of having a free mobile app that rotates on your phone. 485 00:31:42,134 --> 00:31:46,983 We have, an accusation right now that we send email. 486 00:31:47,073 --> 00:31:52,621 Uh, we have been accused of... Selling cloud computing services. 487 00:31:52,711 --> 00:31:57,314 They said, "if you charge somebody money for providing a computing service, 488 00:31:57,404 --> 00:31:58,928 that violates our patent." 489 00:31:59,018 --> 00:32:01,418 So you may notice that Uniloc's lawsuit against. 490 00:32:01,508 --> 00:32:03,608 Rackspace was for selling linux computers. 491 00:32:03,698 --> 00:32:05,167 Why linux? 492 00:32:05,257 --> 00:32:07,603 Think about it, and the answer becomes clear. 493 00:32:07,693 --> 00:32:11,040 If they were to sue Rackspace for renting out time on Apple 494 00:32:11,130 --> 00:32:14,176 or Microsoft operating systems for rounding numbers, 495 00:32:14,266 --> 00:32:17,546 any jury would just laugh it right out of court. 496 00:32:17,636 --> 00:32:21,117 But when they choose linux, that's an operating system 497 00:32:21,207 --> 00:32:23,619 that most jurors just don't know much about. 498 00:32:23,709 --> 00:32:27,456 Turns out, Linux rounds numbers just like Apple and just like Microsoft. 499 00:32:27,546 --> 00:32:30,196 All the operating systems work on the same computers. 500 00:32:30,286 --> 00:32:34,396 But by choosing linux, Uniloc introduces just enough doubt 501 00:32:34,486 --> 00:32:36,332 to stand a chance of succeeding. 502 00:32:36,422 --> 00:32:40,803 And it's that tiny little seed of doubt that drives the entire lawsuit. 503 00:32:40,893 --> 00:32:42,856 They don't really care that their 504 00:32:42,946 --> 00:32:45,762 interpretation is ridiculous on the face of it. 505 00:32:45,852 --> 00:32:50,413 And the trolls don't even care how nonsensical or irrelevant their patent is. 506 00:32:50,503 --> 00:32:54,852 The thing about these users suits is that we're all now users of technology. 507 00:32:54,942 --> 00:32:57,292 So that's why you see folks who are angry about 508 00:32:57,382 --> 00:33:00,756 patent trolls not only including tech companies, but retailers, 509 00:33:00,846 --> 00:33:02,893 your mom and pop store down the street. 510 00:33:02,983 --> 00:33:05,428 If you have a scanner in your house... do you? 511 00:33:05,518 --> 00:33:07,768 -Do you have wifi in your house? -Absolutely. 512 00:33:07,858 --> 00:33:10,703 -Do you have a smartphone in your pocket? -Of course. 513 00:33:10,793 --> 00:33:13,960 Okay, so those things make you a target for a patent lawsuit, 514 00:33:14,050 --> 00:33:17,272 because you are using the technologies which are at stake. 515 00:33:17,362 --> 00:33:20,054 Man. But historically, patent holders won't go after 516 00:33:20,144 --> 00:33:22,836 users because they don't want to sue their customers. 517 00:33:22,926 --> 00:33:26,476 The thing about patent trolls is they don't have customers, so they can 518 00:33:26,566 --> 00:33:30,288 go after folks without worrying about their reputation in the marketplace. 519 00:33:30,378 --> 00:33:34,756 When I received the demand letter, most of the screenshots were of Apple's app store, 520 00:33:34,846 --> 00:33:36,925 well I'm an end user of that technology. 521 00:33:37,015 --> 00:33:41,897 I didn't invent that technology, I'm just using that technology. 522 00:33:41,987 --> 00:33:46,935 But they're claiming that end users are violating their patents, 523 00:33:47,025 --> 00:33:50,806 even though Apple has a license patent, even though Apple says, 524 00:33:50,896 --> 00:33:54,352 their developers are not infringing. 525 00:33:54,966 --> 00:33:57,112 It doesn't matter to the patent troll. 526 00:33:57,202 --> 00:33:59,002 It doesn't matter. 527 00:33:59,805 --> 00:34:03,519 If they could pin that... that interpretation in any such way, 528 00:34:03,609 --> 00:34:05,554 then they force you to respond. 529 00:34:05,644 --> 00:34:08,690 Because, their point is not to win. 530 00:34:08,780 --> 00:34:11,127 Their point is to make you spend money. 531 00:34:11,217 --> 00:34:13,767 If they can make it more expensive for you to prove 532 00:34:13,857 --> 00:34:16,630 that you're right than it is for you to pay them off, 533 00:34:16,720 --> 00:34:20,708 then 99 out of 100 people will just pay them off and go about their business. 534 00:34:20,798 --> 00:34:25,527 And every one of these people are... Are coming in and running around, and saying, 535 00:34:25,617 --> 00:34:33,489 "well, Newegg could not have succeeded but for my patent". Which is utter bullshit. 536 00:34:35,641 --> 00:34:39,221 Right? None of our developers or software developers 537 00:34:39,311 --> 00:34:42,395 had, you know, ever referenced any of these patents. 538 00:34:42,485 --> 00:34:46,641 For example, on the online shopping cart, what they coded for that, 539 00:34:46,731 --> 00:34:49,683 for that functionality, every website in America 540 00:34:49,773 --> 00:34:53,234 that's an e-commerce website, um, has a shopping cart. 541 00:34:53,324 --> 00:34:55,675 You know what I say at our company? 542 00:34:55,765 --> 00:34:56,765 Ideas are cheap. 543 00:34:56,855 --> 00:34:59,741 I have an idea every day, you know? 544 00:34:59,831 --> 00:35:02,278 What, am I gonna go patent every one of them? 545 00:35:02,368 --> 00:35:07,349 This law firm that sued me had absolutely no value to add to my business. 546 00:35:07,439 --> 00:35:14,223 They were only trying to extract money in exchange for agreeing not to sue me, 547 00:35:14,313 --> 00:35:16,613 which I call extortion. 548 00:35:16,848 --> 00:35:19,348 Pay money to not be sued? 549 00:35:19,785 --> 00:35:21,385 Well, so what if we do get sued? 550 00:35:21,475 --> 00:35:23,132 This'll never stand up in court. 551 00:35:23,222 --> 00:35:27,703 Of course, we do have to have to pay our defense fees. 552 00:35:27,793 --> 00:35:33,775 They are hard costs, that are already tremendous and tragic and ridiculous. 553 00:35:33,865 --> 00:35:38,214 They count on the fact that most companies can't manage, um, 554 00:35:38,304 --> 00:35:43,185 their legal defense and they have to basically end up paying far, far more 555 00:35:43,275 --> 00:35:46,322 than, um... than what the plaintiffs are asking for. 556 00:35:46,412 --> 00:35:49,032 And so those plaintiffs will very cleverly... 557 00:35:49,122 --> 00:35:51,560 They'll price below the cost of defense. 558 00:35:51,650 --> 00:35:57,766 A patent suit generally costs $1 to $2 million to defend through to judgment. 559 00:35:57,856 --> 00:35:59,835 So in 2011, when I gave my ted talk, 560 00:35:59,925 --> 00:36:03,425 they were estimating that the cost of defending a patent troll lawsuit 561 00:36:03,515 --> 00:36:05,065 was about a million and a half. 562 00:36:05,155 --> 00:36:09,550 The legal expense of defending yourself against the patent, 563 00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:13,882 um, trolling lawsuit can be in the millions of dollars. 564 00:36:13,972 --> 00:36:17,619 And a lot of times the patent trolls are picking on small companies 565 00:36:17,709 --> 00:36:21,823 that they know cannot afford to go through the whole legal process. 566 00:36:21,913 --> 00:36:25,361 You probably spend about $3 to $4 million. 567 00:36:25,451 --> 00:36:32,171 So far, I would estimate that the legal fees have been in the millions. 568 00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:35,933 And I think we're talking about several 569 00:36:36,023 --> 00:36:38,607 million more before it's all said and done. 570 00:36:38,697 --> 00:36:42,444 My small company couldn't afford that, and they knew that. 571 00:36:42,534 --> 00:36:46,244 It would be half a million dollars or up, to 572 00:36:46,334 --> 00:36:50,219 defend against a patent infringement lawsuit. 573 00:36:50,309 --> 00:36:53,622 And how much money did you make in the year leading up 574 00:36:53,712 --> 00:36:55,462 to the patent infringement lawsuit? 575 00:36:55,552 --> 00:36:57,848 We made about $30,000 profit in 2013. 576 00:36:57,938 --> 00:37:00,929 Every case has been brought against it so far. 577 00:37:01,019 --> 00:37:04,554 Has been by MPE's where there was no product for us to buy 578 00:37:04,644 --> 00:37:10,692 or no service out there in the market that we could have bought. 579 00:37:14,733 --> 00:37:20,349 We should fight and we do, um, with what we have but we don't have that much. 580 00:37:20,439 --> 00:37:23,452 For me, hundreds of thousands of dollars is a lot of money. 581 00:37:23,542 --> 00:37:26,042 It was more money than we spent on the entire app. 582 00:37:26,132 --> 00:37:27,473 So what'd you do? 583 00:37:27,563 --> 00:37:30,336 Um, we scraped together a little bit of 584 00:37:30,426 --> 00:37:33,633 money that we could, uh, could get a hold of. 585 00:37:33,723 --> 00:37:39,301 We emptied our 401k, we paid our attorney enough to get the job started. 586 00:37:39,391 --> 00:37:41,791 The lawyers, the first question they ask you is: 587 00:37:41,881 --> 00:37:44,240 "How much money do you have?" 588 00:37:44,330 --> 00:37:48,677 And since I didn't have anywhere near a million to $3 million in the bank, 589 00:37:48,767 --> 00:37:50,446 I was laughed off the phone. 590 00:37:50,536 --> 00:37:52,481 Some of them were extremely rude. 591 00:37:52,571 --> 00:37:55,235 When we got the lawsuit, we knew we immediately 592 00:37:55,325 --> 00:37:57,506 had to make some very hard decisions. 593 00:37:57,596 --> 00:38:00,902 So we actually held a meeting and I told all of my employees, 594 00:38:00,992 --> 00:38:02,992 I said, "everybody is getting laid off. 595 00:38:03,082 --> 00:38:05,382 I'm gonna move the office back to my basement, 596 00:38:05,472 --> 00:38:07,654 and I'm gonna try to do everything myself." 597 00:38:07,744 --> 00:38:11,694 And I figured within... By the end of the year we might be out of business. 598 00:38:11,784 --> 00:38:13,734 I had planned to hire another couple of 599 00:38:13,824 --> 00:38:16,272 employees that year and I wasn't able to do it. 600 00:38:16,362 --> 00:38:20,709 You know, I laid off seven people, um, most of whom were engineers. 601 00:38:20,799 --> 00:38:22,411 Um, I lost employees. 602 00:38:22,501 --> 00:38:26,091 I had to... I had to get rid of them so I could finance the litigation. 603 00:38:26,181 --> 00:38:28,717 You have to learn a lot about the legal system 604 00:38:28,807 --> 00:38:32,821 so I can't tell you how much time I've wasted on this, 605 00:38:32,911 --> 00:38:36,111 time I could have been focused on my own products. 606 00:38:36,201 --> 00:38:39,109 Last month I probably could have hired 20 people, 607 00:38:39,199 --> 00:38:42,345 except for what we're spending on patent litigation and... 608 00:38:42,435 --> 00:38:46,702 Instead of spending 18 hours a day running my business like I normally do, 609 00:38:46,792 --> 00:38:50,542 I had to instead spend that trying to figure out how to fight this lawsuit. 610 00:38:50,632 --> 00:38:53,566 It took up 100% of my time for the better part a the year. 611 00:38:53,656 --> 00:38:57,680 I probably spent 60 or 70 hours a week doing litigation activities, 612 00:38:57,770 --> 00:39:00,045 um, in those first couple months. 613 00:39:00,135 --> 00:39:04,836 Um, what I should have been doing was finding new customers and growing 614 00:39:04,926 --> 00:39:09,491 our business, and signing up new eyewear manufacturers to our site. 615 00:39:09,581 --> 00:39:11,593 The business ground to a halt. 616 00:39:11,683 --> 00:39:17,966 Every resource, financially as well as my... you know, mental resources 617 00:39:18,056 --> 00:39:21,258 and my time were focused on what were we going to do next? 618 00:39:21,348 --> 00:39:22,899 How were we gonna survive? 619 00:39:22,989 --> 00:39:26,407 We had to stop growing basically in order to deal with this. 620 00:39:26,497 --> 00:39:29,211 Everything on the business side was derailed. 621 00:39:29,301 --> 00:39:34,400 Not only am I trying to run a business, I'm trying to run a business, plus, 622 00:39:34,490 --> 00:39:39,588 deal with lawyers, and you know, um, looking up doing research on the patent 623 00:39:39,678 --> 00:39:44,693 and the patent troll and coming up with responses, so yeah, it did take a toll. 624 00:39:44,783 --> 00:39:47,083 It was a... it was a... Tough time for us all. 625 00:39:47,173 --> 00:39:51,238 They want you to make it so painful to fight them, that you just give up 626 00:39:51,328 --> 00:39:52,934 and you pay them off. 627 00:39:53,024 --> 00:39:58,262 And even my boys, they... they knew that, you know, their dad was tied up with this, 628 00:39:58,352 --> 00:39:59,775 that my mind was elsewhere. 629 00:39:59,865 --> 00:40:02,344 And we consider 2014 a whole year lost. 630 00:40:02,434 --> 00:40:05,234 Over all, yeah, I would say it had an effect on my kids. 631 00:40:05,324 --> 00:40:08,317 They... they... missed their dad for about three months. 632 00:40:08,407 --> 00:40:12,182 My oldest son who was eight at the time, uh, was listening in on all our 633 00:40:12,272 --> 00:40:16,147 conversations about strategy, and at one point he, uh... he tried to help, 634 00:40:16,237 --> 00:40:19,736 and he says, "Daddy, I know what you need to do with this guy." 635 00:40:19,826 --> 00:40:22,610 -And I go, "What?" -He goes, "You should kill him." 636 00:40:22,700 --> 00:40:25,327 These trolls don't just ruin people's businesses, 637 00:40:25,417 --> 00:40:27,736 they ruin their lives and their families. 638 00:40:27,826 --> 00:40:29,826 And if you settle with the patent trolls 639 00:40:29,916 --> 00:40:32,774 you're just encouraging them to do it to you again. 640 00:40:32,864 --> 00:40:35,764 Or, to do it to someone else. 641 00:40:37,002 --> 00:40:38,079 Which lawsuit? 642 00:40:38,169 --> 00:40:39,481 The first one. 643 00:40:39,571 --> 00:40:41,971 It's still not resolved. 644 00:40:44,075 --> 00:40:46,154 How long is it gonna go on? 645 00:40:46,244 --> 00:40:47,956 It could go on several more years. 646 00:40:48,046 --> 00:40:50,146 It can go on forever. 647 00:40:50,516 --> 00:40:55,028 It can go on... For the... For your entire life. 648 00:41:00,892 --> 00:41:06,908 The patent troll needs to make it as difficult for you as he possibly can, 649 00:41:06,998 --> 00:41:11,547 so you'll finally just give up in exhaustion and settle. 650 00:41:11,637 --> 00:41:16,652 One of the ways he does this is a process called discovery. 651 00:41:16,742 --> 00:41:21,122 They will bleed you dry in the discovery process. 652 00:41:21,212 --> 00:41:24,740 They will ask for fountains of information, 653 00:41:24,830 --> 00:41:27,763 and it's a very intrusive process. 654 00:41:27,853 --> 00:41:33,101 We're talking email records, financial records, bank statements. 655 00:41:33,191 --> 00:41:38,007 The list goes on and on, and they don't really need this for their case. 656 00:41:38,097 --> 00:41:41,610 They just want you to pay a lot of money and a lot of time. 657 00:41:41,700 --> 00:41:43,412 That's how they bleed ya'. 658 00:41:43,502 --> 00:41:45,352 They bleed ya', bleed ya', bleed ya'. 659 00:41:45,442 --> 00:41:50,024 Show us the hundreds of thousands of emails that have been sent back and forth 660 00:41:50,114 --> 00:41:53,427 between you and investors, and... and anything that has to do with 661 00:41:53,517 --> 00:41:55,567 how you created this idea, and then we'll 662 00:41:55,657 --> 00:41:59,061 take a look later and determine whether or not you're infringing. 663 00:41:59,151 --> 00:42:00,551 That's just... That's cheap. 664 00:42:00,641 --> 00:42:02,141 It's... it's cheaper for them. 665 00:42:02,231 --> 00:42:05,968 If it was made more expensive for them, perhaps they wouldn't do it. 666 00:42:06,058 --> 00:42:08,004 But they know it's expensive for me. 667 00:42:08,094 --> 00:42:11,711 Uh, it's... it's very similar to, what if somebody broke into your house 668 00:42:11,801 --> 00:42:15,263 in the middle of the night and you have to sit there on the couch 669 00:42:15,353 --> 00:42:17,553 while they argue with the cops over how much 670 00:42:17,643 --> 00:42:19,843 of your stuff they can take when they leave. 671 00:42:19,933 --> 00:42:21,912 So the person being sued has to reveal 672 00:42:22,002 --> 00:42:24,248 everything about his own business. 673 00:42:24,338 --> 00:42:27,216 What does the patent troll have to reveal about his? 674 00:42:27,306 --> 00:42:30,624 It basically created again a huge imbalanced burden on defendants. 675 00:42:30,714 --> 00:42:33,941 Plaintiffs have no documents or records to turn over, right? 676 00:42:34,031 --> 00:42:37,966 Why don't the plaintiffs have any documents or records to turn over? 677 00:42:38,056 --> 00:42:39,656 Because they're shell companies. 678 00:42:39,746 --> 00:42:41,725 Patent trolls are just shell companies. 679 00:42:41,815 --> 00:42:44,840 They don't make anything, they don't produce anything. 680 00:42:44,930 --> 00:42:47,175 They don't have employees. 681 00:42:47,265 --> 00:42:48,910 It's smoke and mirrors. 682 00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:50,879 You don't even know who's suing you. 683 00:42:50,969 --> 00:42:52,113 You have no idea. 684 00:42:52,203 --> 00:42:54,603 You don't know anything. 685 00:42:54,740 --> 00:43:00,020 They've thought of every single angle and you can't win. 686 00:43:00,580 --> 00:43:04,427 The company that sued us was nothing more than a couple lawyers 687 00:43:04,517 --> 00:43:08,753 that were in a room in east Texas that thought they could make some money. 688 00:43:08,843 --> 00:43:12,035 In one case of a friend of mine now, uh, they won. 689 00:43:12,125 --> 00:43:13,564 The judge actually said, um, 690 00:43:13,654 --> 00:43:17,425 "this is actually insane, and you're owed all these punitive damages." 691 00:43:17,515 --> 00:43:19,542 But it was a non-practicing entity. 692 00:43:19,632 --> 00:43:23,150 They have no assets, so then they just throw up their hands, and say, 693 00:43:23,240 --> 00:43:25,081 "sorry, we don't have any money." 694 00:43:25,171 --> 00:43:28,249 You get a million dollar judgment against the shell company, 695 00:43:28,339 --> 00:43:30,539 they go, "okay, poof, we're outta business." 696 00:43:30,629 --> 00:43:32,453 So that's what a shell company is. 697 00:43:32,543 --> 00:43:36,925 It's an empty shell put together just to hold a patent and no other assets. 698 00:43:37,015 --> 00:43:41,814 As the money comes into the shell company, the patent trolls funnel it down into 699 00:43:41,904 --> 00:43:46,702 their own pockets so the shell company itself never achieves any value. 700 00:43:46,792 --> 00:43:49,771 For the patent troll, there's no risk. 701 00:43:49,861 --> 00:43:53,074 Because he has no business, he has nothing to lose. 702 00:43:53,164 --> 00:43:55,314 Let's examine one of these shell companies. 703 00:43:55,404 --> 00:43:57,913 You remember our friend, Steve Vicinanza? 704 00:43:58,003 --> 00:44:01,765 In order to use my $200 scanner on the network, 705 00:44:01,855 --> 00:44:05,120 I would have to pay them $120 thousand. 706 00:44:05,210 --> 00:44:08,890 But who are we paying this $120 thousand to? 707 00:44:08,980 --> 00:44:11,347 Uh, the patent troll was an entity called. 708 00:44:11,437 --> 00:44:14,434 -Project Paperless... -Project Paperless? 709 00:44:14,524 --> 00:44:16,424 Yeah, that's a shell company. 710 00:44:16,514 --> 00:44:17,966 But who are they suing? 711 00:44:18,056 --> 00:44:20,356 Well, it turns out there's a directory called. 712 00:44:20,446 --> 00:44:24,105 "The Best Businesses To Work At In Atlanta." 713 00:44:24,195 --> 00:44:31,046 The businesses on that list were the ones that were sued for using scanners. 714 00:44:31,136 --> 00:44:33,236 The Best Businesses To Work At In Atlanta, 715 00:44:33,326 --> 00:44:38,787 clearly, businesses with good morale, happy employees, a decent stream of money. 716 00:44:38,877 --> 00:44:45,693 They're the perfect fruit to pick, ripe for the taking by patent trolls. 717 00:44:46,351 --> 00:44:51,166 What law firm would go and ruin these people's lives like this? 718 00:44:51,256 --> 00:44:53,835 Turns out, it's a law firm called. 719 00:44:53,925 --> 00:44:56,437 Hill, Kertscher, and Wharton. 720 00:44:56,527 --> 00:45:00,341 Hill, Kertscher, and Wharton demanded that each business 721 00:45:00,431 --> 00:45:07,215 that used a scanner to scan a document to an email pay them a thousand dollars 722 00:45:07,305 --> 00:45:10,819 for each employee in the company that used a scanner. 723 00:45:10,909 --> 00:45:16,024 If the companies didn't pay, then Hill, Kertscher, and Wharton would sue them, 724 00:45:16,114 --> 00:45:21,196 and the victims would be looking at $3 million in legal fees. 725 00:45:21,286 --> 00:45:24,086 Hill, Kertscher, and Wharton's excuse for this nonsense? 726 00:45:24,176 --> 00:45:27,803 That they were representing a client called Project Paperless. 727 00:45:27,893 --> 00:45:29,938 So who is this Project Paperless anyway? 728 00:45:30,028 --> 00:45:33,878 A little more research found that Project Paperless was just a shell company, 729 00:45:33,968 --> 00:45:37,913 which in turn was owned by three more shell companies. 730 00:45:38,003 --> 00:45:40,403 And the people who set up those shell companies? 731 00:45:40,493 --> 00:45:47,355 Three guys, by the names of Steven Hill, Douglass Kertscher, and Scott Wharton. 732 00:45:47,445 --> 00:45:49,090 Sound familiar? 733 00:45:49,180 --> 00:45:52,928 The very lawyers that were filing the lawsuits. 734 00:45:53,018 --> 00:45:58,366 The supposed victims that the lawyers were representing were just shell companies 735 00:45:58,456 --> 00:46:01,720 created by the lawyers themselves. 736 00:46:01,927 --> 00:46:07,075 Imagine going to a lawyer and saying that you want to sue people for using scanners 737 00:46:07,165 --> 00:46:12,113 but you don't want anyone to find out who you are while you're doing it. 738 00:46:12,203 --> 00:46:15,053 And the lawyer then saying, "Oh, okay, that's no problem. 739 00:46:15,143 --> 00:46:18,443 We'll just set up dummy corporations for you to hide your identity 740 00:46:18,533 --> 00:46:23,491 while we sue everyone in the Best Work Place directory in your own hometown." 741 00:46:23,581 --> 00:46:27,717 Well, that's exactly what Steven Hill, of Hill, Kertscher, and Wharton, 742 00:46:27,807 --> 00:46:30,207 of Atlanta, Georgia did. 743 00:46:30,455 --> 00:46:35,170 The address of one of the shell companies, by the way, was a condo in Florida, 744 00:46:35,260 --> 00:46:39,100 owned by a friend of one of the lawyers. 745 00:46:39,630 --> 00:46:42,978 One of the businesses they demanded money from, by the way, 746 00:46:43,068 --> 00:46:46,347 was a company called Cobb Pediatric Therapy. 747 00:46:46,437 --> 00:46:50,986 Cobb Pediatric Therapy is a business that helps disabled children. 748 00:46:51,076 --> 00:46:54,476 When they got their lawsuit threat from Hill, Kertscher, and Wharton 749 00:46:54,566 --> 00:47:00,028 they had to promise Steven Hill that they would never again use a scanner 750 00:47:00,118 --> 00:47:04,150 to scan a document into an email. 751 00:47:04,289 --> 00:47:06,497 That's what Cobb Pediatric Therapy had to do 752 00:47:06,587 --> 00:47:08,937 to make the lawsuit threat against them stop. 753 00:47:09,027 --> 00:47:13,512 So now, whenever disabled children come into Cobb Pediatric Therapy to get help, 754 00:47:13,602 --> 00:47:18,988 Cobb Pediatric Therapy cannot help the children as effectively as they otherwise 755 00:47:19,078 --> 00:47:24,052 would, because they are not allowed to scan their documents into emails. 756 00:47:24,142 --> 00:47:27,214 So this, to satisfy the lawyers. 757 00:47:27,645 --> 00:47:32,060 So now, we have the latest commandments from the lawyers. 758 00:47:32,150 --> 00:47:34,150 Thou shalt not scan! 759 00:47:37,555 --> 00:47:42,470 All the lawyer has to do is manufacture a victim that holds a patent 760 00:47:42,560 --> 00:47:45,006 that describes what we all do every day. 761 00:47:45,096 --> 00:47:49,044 Once he's done that, he just starts sending out the lawsuits, 762 00:47:49,134 --> 00:47:52,284 to the best business places to work at in Atlanta, for example. 763 00:47:52,374 --> 00:47:56,217 In the demand letter they actually showed a screen shot of my app. 764 00:47:56,307 --> 00:48:00,421 And they referenced the hyperlink and they said, 765 00:48:00,511 --> 00:48:03,111 "That is in violation of one or more other patents." 766 00:48:03,201 --> 00:48:07,628 A hyperlink. You know, the thing you click on on the internet, that is basically 767 00:48:07,718 --> 00:48:09,898 uh, the backbone of the world wide web. 768 00:48:09,988 --> 00:48:15,603 That is not patentable and you should not be able to abuse the court systems 769 00:48:15,693 --> 00:48:21,076 and drag small companies like mine on such a simple concept. 770 00:48:21,166 --> 00:48:26,734 And... Here's the problem, is what do you do at that point? 771 00:48:28,173 --> 00:48:29,951 So what do you do? 772 00:48:30,041 --> 00:48:32,553 I'm being sued for something equally obvious. 773 00:48:32,643 --> 00:48:34,489 What are my options? 774 00:48:34,579 --> 00:48:39,331 It's very difficult to say what a company should do when when they're sued... 775 00:48:39,421 --> 00:48:41,018 When they're sued by... 776 00:48:41,108 --> 00:48:46,334 Particularly, say, a patent troll, because the choices are all... are all bad. 777 00:48:46,424 --> 00:48:49,404 And so then he told me we had a couple of options, 778 00:48:49,494 --> 00:48:52,540 and one of those options was to kind of settle out of court, 779 00:48:52,630 --> 00:48:56,011 in which case, I would have to give up some type of royalty fee. 780 00:48:56,101 --> 00:48:57,312 Or some type of payment. 781 00:48:57,402 --> 00:49:02,451 Most companies have to settle because they can't afford expensive litigation 782 00:49:02,541 --> 00:49:06,488 and those companies that do settle, it's like blood in the water. 783 00:49:06,578 --> 00:49:10,023 Other patent trolls see that, they see that you're willing to pay 784 00:49:10,113 --> 00:49:13,395 to get out of the lawsuit and they're gonna come knocking. 785 00:49:13,485 --> 00:49:16,889 But when I got into the weeds and started talking to more lawyers, 786 00:49:16,979 --> 00:49:20,544 I understand that, um, this is just what trolling is, and they sue a 787 00:49:20,634 --> 00:49:24,629 bunch of players in the same day, and, you know, most of them advised me, 788 00:49:24,719 --> 00:49:28,175 "Hey, this one you can settle, and most likely you can settle it, 789 00:49:28,265 --> 00:49:31,556 for slightly less that it would take you to win in court." 790 00:49:31,646 --> 00:49:35,873 The way this plays out for us is that, you know, we're not one of the companies 791 00:49:35,963 --> 00:49:40,189 so big that they leave us alone 'cause they're afraid of our... our legal budget, 792 00:49:40,279 --> 00:49:44,625 but we're not so small that they ignore us because they think we can't write a check. 793 00:49:44,715 --> 00:49:46,815 We're right in the middle where, you know, 794 00:49:46,905 --> 00:49:49,905 they know that we can't afford to keep fighting forever, 795 00:49:49,995 --> 00:49:53,774 and I feel like they leverage that to try to get settlements out of us, 796 00:49:53,864 --> 00:49:57,589 but in the next year we're still going to be a middle sized company, 797 00:49:57,679 --> 00:50:00,693 and we're venture-backed so we're gonna continue to get hit, 798 00:50:00,783 --> 00:50:03,279 and it's gonna continue to be draining for us. 799 00:50:03,369 --> 00:50:06,982 And we went from never having had a patent lawsuit at all 800 00:50:07,072 --> 00:50:13,154 to having one come up every couple months, what we call repeat business. 801 00:50:13,244 --> 00:50:17,720 We started to get people who would come after us again and again and 802 00:50:17,810 --> 00:50:22,218 when we saw that, we realized, this is just paying off the bully. 803 00:50:22,308 --> 00:50:24,599 This is not something that will change. 804 00:50:24,689 --> 00:50:26,667 Um, so... I actually went to mediation. 805 00:50:26,757 --> 00:50:30,493 For the first time I met, uh, for the first time, the plaintiff. 806 00:50:30,583 --> 00:50:35,110 I saw his face, and I met this person in front of kind of a federal mediator. 807 00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:37,745 Um, the mediation wasn't a mediation at all. 808 00:50:37,835 --> 00:50:42,221 Uh, I got into a room with my attorney and these guys made some more demands 809 00:50:42,311 --> 00:50:46,021 and the demand was, "Look, we may or may not win this case", 810 00:50:46,111 --> 00:50:50,058 we may or may not win this appeal, but what we are going to do, 811 00:50:50,148 --> 00:50:54,795 as soon as this appeal is over, is we're going to sue you with a different patent 812 00:50:54,885 --> 00:50:59,134 in our patent portfolio and we're gonna start this all over again. 813 00:50:59,224 --> 00:51:01,531 And you're not gonna be able to... to fight, 814 00:51:01,621 --> 00:51:04,521 "'Cause we know you're running out of money." 815 00:51:07,232 --> 00:51:12,480 We're going to sue you with a different patent in our patent portfolio 816 00:51:12,570 --> 00:51:16,084 and we're gonna start this all over again. 817 00:51:16,174 --> 00:51:21,356 That scenario I tend to mitigate risk, as an ex-banker, an ex-pilot. 818 00:51:21,446 --> 00:51:23,796 That... that scenario I didn't even see coming. 819 00:51:23,886 --> 00:51:27,596 Why isn't the national media all over this? 820 00:51:27,686 --> 00:51:31,115 Well, now it's time for our next step down the rabbit hole. 821 00:51:31,205 --> 00:51:34,401 So, when these people settle, can I go ask them 822 00:51:34,491 --> 00:51:37,982 all about the settlement to find out what happened to them? 823 00:51:38,072 --> 00:51:42,065 You can ask what people settled for, but you generally won't get an answer. 824 00:51:42,155 --> 00:51:46,515 So it turns out that, uh, when you settle as opposed to come to a trial judgment, 825 00:51:46,605 --> 00:51:48,855 uh, the settlements have other terms in them, 826 00:51:48,945 --> 00:51:52,345 and one of the terms is always non-disclosure, which means that, uh, 827 00:51:52,435 --> 00:51:55,223 if I pay you to go away as a patent troll, 828 00:51:55,313 --> 00:51:58,113 I'm not just paying you, I'm also giving you my silence. 829 00:51:58,203 --> 00:51:59,453 They always ask for that. 830 00:51:59,543 --> 00:52:04,099 Nine out of ten times, the first thing that the patent troll asks you to do 831 00:52:04,189 --> 00:52:06,334 is to sign a non-disclosure agreement. 832 00:52:06,424 --> 00:52:11,356 In my case, they would not even tell me which specific claims we 833 00:52:11,446 --> 00:52:16,377 were infringing on unless I signed a non-disclosure agreement. 834 00:52:16,467 --> 00:52:20,515 So we have been approached by numerous patent trolls in the past, 835 00:52:20,605 --> 00:52:24,185 and unfortunately because I'm under a non-disclosure agreement, 836 00:52:24,275 --> 00:52:27,675 I'm not allowed to really talk about the specifics or what happened. 837 00:52:27,765 --> 00:52:29,937 The specifics of the lawsuit are... 838 00:52:30,027 --> 00:52:34,238 Are covered in a non-disclosure agreement as part of the settlement agreement, 839 00:52:34,328 --> 00:52:38,122 so I really shouldn't talk about anything specific like who's sued me, 840 00:52:38,212 --> 00:52:41,094 how I was sued, or, the specifics of how I infringed 841 00:52:41,184 --> 00:52:44,066 upon a patent that I really can't even talk about. 842 00:52:44,156 --> 00:52:47,473 It was... I just don't want to talk about current things. 843 00:52:47,563 --> 00:52:50,813 But I can talk about what generally I've been accused about. 844 00:52:50,903 --> 00:52:54,160 Yeah, I... I... can mention that I am in ongoing cases, but we're 845 00:52:54,250 --> 00:52:57,352 not gonna mention names, or we're not gonna mention... yeah. 846 00:52:57,442 --> 00:52:59,642 What law firm was it that sued you? 847 00:52:59,732 --> 00:53:02,032 Uh, I really can't say. 848 00:53:04,682 --> 00:53:06,832 What was the name of this company? 849 00:53:06,922 --> 00:53:10,186 I am not going to talk about that. 850 00:53:10,955 --> 00:53:13,701 Who were the lawyers that were doing this? 851 00:53:13,791 --> 00:53:15,991 I can't disclose that. 852 00:53:16,561 --> 00:53:18,932 Uh, what... what truly makes me sad, uh, 853 00:53:19,022 --> 00:53:21,876 is to think about the people who are silenced. 854 00:53:21,966 --> 00:53:23,778 Silence is a part of the agreement. 855 00:53:23,868 --> 00:53:26,568 Did this troll ever offer to settle with you? 856 00:53:26,658 --> 00:53:30,210 Um, we did end up settling this case. 857 00:53:30,475 --> 00:53:31,575 For how much. 858 00:53:31,665 --> 00:53:33,031 We have not disclosed that. 859 00:53:33,121 --> 00:53:36,524 -Are you allowed to disclose it? -No. - Why not? 860 00:53:36,614 --> 00:53:39,514 I don't want to get into that. 861 00:53:42,487 --> 00:53:44,187 Can we turn this off for a second? 862 00:53:44,277 --> 00:53:45,533 Turn it off. 863 00:53:45,623 --> 00:53:49,837 Tell me about the success that you've enjoyed 864 00:53:49,927 --> 00:53:53,959 from the products you've brought to market. 865 00:53:54,365 --> 00:53:57,265 I'm not able to discuss that. 866 00:53:59,770 --> 00:54:01,330 Why? 867 00:54:02,540 --> 00:54:03,540 Um... 868 00:54:07,878 --> 00:54:09,878 Because sometimes... 869 00:54:13,984 --> 00:54:15,664 Hold it a sec. 870 00:54:16,354 --> 00:54:18,213 On, okay... 871 00:54:18,303 --> 00:54:23,971 Can you tell me... They... they can actually, anyway... 872 00:54:24,061 --> 00:54:31,069 Can you tell me... If anyone else has taken credit for your work? 873 00:54:34,605 --> 00:54:38,829 It's probably better that I not discuss that. 874 00:54:42,947 --> 00:54:47,995 They're not even allowed to tell anyone what happened to them. 875 00:54:48,085 --> 00:54:53,934 And as a result, the problem can never be made public and solved. 876 00:54:54,024 --> 00:54:56,771 What court would even allow this? 877 00:54:56,861 --> 00:55:00,040 It's mostly in Texas, unfortunately. 878 00:55:00,130 --> 00:55:04,545 There's one particular district, the eastern district of Texas, 879 00:55:04,635 --> 00:55:09,284 that is perceived as being very favorable to patent owners, 880 00:55:09,374 --> 00:55:15,022 and, uh, over a thousand patent troll lawsuits are filed there every year. 881 00:55:15,112 --> 00:55:16,991 Why do they pick Texas? 882 00:55:17,081 --> 00:55:19,581 It's a number of reasons. 883 00:55:20,150 --> 00:55:24,758 The patent trolls pick Texas because they believe 884 00:55:25,423 --> 00:55:28,469 that the juries there are friendly to patent owners. 885 00:55:28,559 --> 00:55:33,708 They pick Texas because they believe that the local rules of practice 886 00:55:33,798 --> 00:55:38,613 are favorable to patent owners and make defending a case very expensive. 887 00:55:38,703 --> 00:55:43,422 And they pick Texas just because it's far away from a lot of the people getting sued 888 00:55:43,512 --> 00:55:45,768 and that alone creates financial pressure, 889 00:55:45,858 --> 00:55:48,689 because that's a distant and inconvenient forum. 890 00:55:48,779 --> 00:55:52,579 So the place in Texas, is it like some place right inside of Dallas 891 00:55:52,669 --> 00:55:55,969 where you come into DFW and get right to work defending ourselves? 892 00:55:56,059 --> 00:55:59,534 The eastern district of Texas is to the east of Dallas 893 00:55:59,624 --> 00:56:05,706 and the courthouses where most of the patent litigation are taking place 894 00:56:05,796 --> 00:56:10,411 are in Marshall and Tyler which are smaller cities 895 00:56:10,501 --> 00:56:13,414 uh, getting closer to the Louisiana border. 896 00:56:13,504 --> 00:56:16,817 So tell me about the computer industry 897 00:56:16,907 --> 00:56:19,454 that happens in Tyler, Texas and Marshall, Texas 898 00:56:19,544 --> 00:56:22,094 that made them such a good venue for these lawsuits 899 00:56:22,184 --> 00:56:24,484 where we know we can get knowledgeable juries. 900 00:56:24,574 --> 00:56:29,029 The Tyler and Marshall, Texas are not, uh, centers 901 00:56:29,119 --> 00:56:32,667 of the United States technology development. 902 00:56:32,757 --> 00:56:36,771 They're... they're more known for the litigation itself 903 00:56:36,861 --> 00:56:41,434 and, uh, they've actually created a large industry of litigation support, 904 00:56:41,524 --> 00:56:43,921 and a lot of work for the lawyers there. 905 00:56:44,011 --> 00:56:47,445 But, uh, I don't know if any large technology companies 906 00:56:47,535 --> 00:56:50,654 that are actually creating products out of these cities. 907 00:56:50,744 --> 00:56:55,022 Most of the time, particularly when you're dealing with these patent trolls, 908 00:56:55,112 --> 00:56:57,112 you're not dealing with a real business. 909 00:56:57,202 --> 00:57:02,986 You're dealing with something that is a post office box somewhere in Tyler, Texas. 910 00:57:03,076 --> 00:57:07,535 We actually got sued again, this time from a non-practicing entity 911 00:57:07,625 --> 00:57:09,825 out of east Texas, where they all come from. 912 00:57:09,915 --> 00:57:14,060 The most shocking thing was... was finding out that there's a... The east district 913 00:57:14,150 --> 00:57:18,534 uh, east Texas, uh, district court where a lot of patent cases are filed. 914 00:57:18,624 --> 00:57:22,550 No businesses are located in east Texas, except patent trolls. Right? 915 00:57:22,640 --> 00:57:28,552 Why? Because that jurisdiction is most sympathetic um, for patent trolls 916 00:57:28,642 --> 00:57:31,992 and is very expensive for businesses to go and, uh, litigate there. 917 00:57:32,082 --> 00:57:34,665 The... it's a cottage industry for the entire city, 918 00:57:34,755 --> 00:57:36,497 so, all the jurors are corrupt. 919 00:57:36,587 --> 00:57:38,787 You know, all the... All the people who work 920 00:57:38,877 --> 00:57:44,539 for the courts are corrupted by this... this... This patent troll industry. 921 00:57:44,629 --> 00:57:46,279 Could this even be true? 922 00:57:46,369 --> 00:57:50,811 I quickly found a website that laid all the figures out, 923 00:57:50,901 --> 00:57:53,614 and the statistics were staggering. 924 00:57:53,704 --> 00:58:00,136 44% of all the patent infringement lawsuits in the entire country 925 00:58:00,244 --> 00:58:05,524 are being filed in one tiny, isolated district of Texas. 926 00:58:06,083 --> 00:58:11,747 And 95% of those cases are filed by non-practicing entities. 927 00:58:12,089 --> 00:58:13,589 Companies that invent nothing. 928 00:58:13,679 --> 00:58:15,679 They just file patent lawsuits. 929 00:58:15,769 --> 00:58:18,419 Now I was on to something, I signed up for 930 00:58:18,509 --> 00:58:21,158 an insider analytic site called Lex Machina, 931 00:58:21,248 --> 00:58:25,484 and did a search of all the patent lawsuits being filed in the U.S., 932 00:58:25,574 --> 00:58:28,596 and I started to see something very peculiar. 933 00:58:28,686 --> 00:58:33,087 The same name kept appearing on a huge percentage of these lawsuits: 934 00:58:33,177 --> 00:58:35,877 William Elsworth Davis III. 935 00:58:36,280 --> 00:58:42,563 His name is listed as a lawyer in 419 patent infringement lawsuits. 936 00:58:42,653 --> 00:58:44,732 Another name kept coming up: 937 00:58:44,822 --> 00:58:46,922 Thomas John Ward, Jr. 938 00:58:47,825 --> 00:58:54,008 His name is listed as a lawyer in 725 patent infringement lawsuits. 939 00:58:54,098 --> 00:59:00,818 So, well over a thousand cases were handled by two very busy lawyers 940 00:59:01,071 --> 00:59:03,818 all in the eastern district of Texas. 941 00:59:03,908 --> 00:59:07,187 It just doesn't seem possible somehow. 942 00:59:07,277 --> 00:59:12,927 Then, I started looking to see what judges were handling these cases. 943 00:59:13,017 --> 00:59:15,195 And that's when I saw it: 944 00:59:15,285 --> 00:59:19,221 Judge Leonard Davis, and Judge John Ward? 945 00:59:23,628 --> 00:59:30,924 Beau Davis is Judge Leonard Davis' son, Johnny Ward is Judge John Ward's son. 946 00:59:31,669 --> 00:59:35,413 The lawyers are the sons of the judges. 947 00:59:35,840 --> 00:59:40,154 So, if Judge Leonard Davis and John Ward can encourage more patent trolls 948 00:59:40,244 --> 00:59:43,924 to file more lawsuits in the eastern district of Texas, 949 00:59:44,014 --> 00:59:49,096 then their sons are the ones who will rack up the billable hours, 950 00:59:49,186 --> 00:59:53,267 or perhaps, a percentage of the take. 951 00:59:53,357 --> 00:59:58,773 Now, both Judge Leonard Davis and John Ward have just recently retired, 952 00:59:58,863 --> 01:00:02,610 and they've gone to work for the very law firms 953 01:00:02,700 --> 01:00:05,680 that represent the patent trolls and their victims. 954 01:00:05,770 --> 01:00:08,149 Now that the eastern district of Texas has 955 01:00:08,239 --> 01:00:10,618 been established as a patent trolling haven, 956 01:00:10,708 --> 01:00:15,923 the judges are working at the law firms that handle the cases. 957 01:00:16,013 --> 01:00:20,961 The odds of getting a case dismissed uh, early, on a rule 11 motion 958 01:00:21,051 --> 01:00:25,065 or on summary judgment, almost impossible, to the point where 959 01:00:25,155 --> 01:00:27,101 I think many defendants were counseled 960 01:00:27,191 --> 01:00:30,605 by their other outside counsel to not even bother filing those. 961 01:00:30,695 --> 01:00:32,972 You know, summary judgment motions because... 962 01:00:33,062 --> 01:00:35,075 And the outside counsel again would... 963 01:00:35,165 --> 01:00:38,345 Would say things like, "You don't wanna piss off the judge. 964 01:00:38,435 --> 01:00:41,749 Because he's gonna get upset with you for filing this." 965 01:00:41,839 --> 01:00:43,951 You know, why they do it, only they know. 966 01:00:44,041 --> 01:00:46,341 It's between them and it's between god, right? 967 01:00:46,431 --> 01:00:51,826 But, there are judges in east Texas that, um, you know, have... 968 01:00:51,916 --> 01:00:56,030 They... they use discretion in certain circumstances that we've become aware of. 969 01:00:56,120 --> 01:00:59,266 For example, where someone files a venue transfer motion. 970 01:00:59,356 --> 01:01:01,656 If the judge denies the venue transfer motion, 971 01:01:01,746 --> 01:01:04,591 there's a pretty darn good case that on appeal, 972 01:01:04,681 --> 01:01:07,274 um, that... that judge will be overturned 973 01:01:07,364 --> 01:01:09,564 by the fifth circuit or the federal circuit. 974 01:01:09,654 --> 01:01:12,713 And so the way that the judge gets around, um, 975 01:01:12,803 --> 01:01:17,507 being overturned is... He just doesn't rule on it. 976 01:01:17,842 --> 01:01:22,571 He just will not rule on the venue transfer motion until right before trial. 977 01:01:22,661 --> 01:01:25,427 And judges can take... There are some judges, like... 978 01:01:25,517 --> 01:01:29,149 Like east... In east Texas, they continue to refuse to fee shift. 979 01:01:29,239 --> 01:01:33,268 They essentially are, you know, a post... in the post-octane world, 980 01:01:33,358 --> 01:01:35,808 half of all fee shifting cases have been granted. 981 01:01:35,898 --> 01:01:37,353 Fee shifts have been granted. 982 01:01:37,443 --> 01:01:41,676 In east Texas, since octane was... was, ah, was issued by the supreme court, 983 01:01:41,766 --> 01:01:44,146 there have been zero fee shifts, until finally 984 01:01:44,236 --> 01:01:46,347 it just got so damned egregious, right? 985 01:01:46,437 --> 01:01:50,284 It finally got so egregious that people started filing what are called 986 01:01:50,374 --> 01:01:54,221 writs of mandamus up to the fifth circuit and up to the federal circuit. 987 01:01:54,311 --> 01:01:57,261 But there are companies, right, that at the end of the day, 988 01:01:57,351 --> 01:01:59,951 either because they've been victimized so many times 989 01:02:00,041 --> 01:02:04,999 or because the companies have principles, they realize somebody's gotta do it. 990 01:02:05,089 --> 01:02:07,822 Someone's gotta do it, and if we don't do it, 991 01:02:07,912 --> 01:02:12,349 if people don't complain and start building up a record, of abuse... 992 01:02:12,439 --> 01:02:15,950 Of just wrong-doing, or abuse. Yeah, it's not wrong. 993 01:02:16,040 --> 01:02:21,448 It's technically not wrong, but certainly abuse... This'll just continue forever. 994 01:02:21,538 --> 01:02:24,819 So the judges never toss out patent trolling lawsuits, 995 01:02:24,909 --> 01:02:27,087 no matter how ridiculous the claims. 996 01:02:27,177 --> 01:02:30,057 The judges never grant your motion for a change of venue, 997 01:02:30,147 --> 01:02:32,192 no matter what state you live in. 998 01:02:32,282 --> 01:02:35,282 The judges never make the patent trolls pay your legal fees, 999 01:02:35,372 --> 01:02:37,832 no matter how asinine the lawsuit. 1000 01:02:37,922 --> 01:02:41,363 The lawyer advises you to not even ask for 1001 01:02:41,453 --> 01:02:45,405 these things because it might anger the judge. 1002 01:02:45,495 --> 01:02:48,375 And this is a venue where I'm being sued? 1003 01:02:48,465 --> 01:02:51,278 Shakespeare said, "There's something rotten in Denmark," 1004 01:02:51,368 --> 01:02:55,400 I say, what the heck is going on in Texas? 1005 01:03:05,800 --> 01:03:10,464 Armed with the first 55 patent infringement lawsuits I could find 1006 01:03:10,554 --> 01:03:14,372 in Marshall, Tyler, and Longview, all in the eastern district of Texas, 1007 01:03:14,462 --> 01:03:19,306 off I went to the address of every company on that list. 1008 01:03:19,396 --> 01:03:21,976 First stop, Marshall, Texas. 1009 01:03:22,066 --> 01:03:25,416 Of course, I imagined Marshall to be a thriving business community. 1010 01:03:25,506 --> 01:03:28,656 I mean, with all these big tech companies, lawyers, and courts, 1011 01:03:28,746 --> 01:03:34,088 their airport was sure to be busy and bustling with lots of air traffic, right? 1012 01:03:56,400 --> 01:04:00,047 Here's the wi-lan office, uh, as far as I can tell. 1013 01:04:00,137 --> 01:04:03,287 So we can come and see... why don't we bring the camera around, 1014 01:04:03,377 --> 01:04:09,329 and see what's... See what's, uh, going on in this office here. 1015 01:04:09,579 --> 01:04:15,863 This is, uh, just a few days after they received $33 million for patents, 1016 01:04:15,953 --> 01:04:20,034 and, uh, this is in the middle of the day on a Thursday. 1017 01:04:20,124 --> 01:04:21,824 Let's keep going. 1018 01:04:24,929 --> 01:04:31,211 Here we have Perdiemco, uh, Perdiemco filed a patent infringement lawsuit. 1019 01:04:32,569 --> 01:04:33,569 Hello? 1020 01:04:37,607 --> 01:04:38,607 Hello? 1021 01:04:39,209 --> 01:04:45,192 We'll keep walking. If they come out, we'll... Go talk to them. 1022 01:04:45,282 --> 01:04:49,629 This is the office, uh, listed for a company called Lodsys, 1023 01:04:49,719 --> 01:04:52,738 uh, and if anybody wants to travel to Marshall, Texas 1024 01:04:52,828 --> 01:04:56,436 and see it for themselves, we're at 505 East Travis street. 1025 01:04:56,526 --> 01:05:00,401 Lodsys is well known as being one of the biggest patent desertion 1026 01:05:00,491 --> 01:05:04,979 entities in the world, uh, they sue a lot people for patent infringement. 1027 01:05:05,069 --> 01:05:06,749 This is their address. 1028 01:05:07,349 --> 01:05:08,349 Hello? 1029 01:05:11,308 --> 01:05:16,957 And they claim to be from, um, Marshall, Texas, where we are now. 1030 01:05:17,047 --> 01:05:18,947 Let's keep walking. 1031 01:05:23,420 --> 01:05:28,202 Here, we have, uh, a company called Packet Intelligence, 1032 01:05:28,292 --> 01:05:31,972 they have filed, uh, two lawsuits for patent infringement. 1033 01:05:33,152 --> 01:05:34,152 Hello? 1034 01:05:35,099 --> 01:05:37,413 We've been walking up and down these halls for 1035 01:05:37,503 --> 01:05:40,080 about 25 minutes now looking for, uh, for anyone. 1036 01:05:40,170 --> 01:05:42,216 And, uh, no one's been here. 1037 01:05:42,306 --> 01:05:48,222 But a large number of patent infringement lawsuits come out of this hallway. 1038 01:05:48,312 --> 01:05:51,112 Well, I guess we'll go to the next address. 1039 01:05:53,748 --> 01:05:57,598 It's been empty for... We looked at that space, 'cause when we moved in here. 1040 01:05:57,688 --> 01:05:59,466 -Mm-hmm. -It's been empty. 1041 01:05:59,556 --> 01:06:01,106 No one's in their office today. 1042 01:06:01,196 --> 01:06:02,396 No one's in there today? 1043 01:06:02,486 --> 01:06:03,486 -Nope. -Oh. 1044 01:06:03,576 --> 01:06:05,339 Hm, maybe knock on the door? 1045 01:06:05,429 --> 01:06:07,029 No one's down there. 1046 01:06:11,801 --> 01:06:14,816 This is the address, uh, used for a lawsuit 1047 01:06:14,906 --> 01:06:18,152 for patent infringement that Follycode filed. 1048 01:06:19,600 --> 01:06:22,705 How about Lake Cherokee Hard Drive, can we see them? 1049 01:06:22,795 --> 01:06:25,993 Uh, no, this is just the accounting firm, we do the... 1050 01:06:26,083 --> 01:06:28,783 Oh I see... what about Blue Bonnet Telecommunications? 1051 01:06:28,873 --> 01:06:31,731 -Same thing. -What about Star Code I.E.D. Technologies? 1052 01:06:31,821 --> 01:06:33,167 They're all the same. 1053 01:06:33,257 --> 01:06:34,757 Oh, they're not actually here. 1054 01:06:34,847 --> 01:06:37,237 The only entity here is A&G LLP. 1055 01:06:37,327 --> 01:06:39,827 Are these companies here? 1056 01:06:40,764 --> 01:06:43,477 Um, I serve as a registered agent for them. 1057 01:06:43,567 --> 01:06:44,567 I see. 1058 01:06:45,169 --> 01:06:46,719 They are located in east Texas. 1059 01:06:46,809 --> 01:06:48,609 Can you say where? 1060 01:06:48,838 --> 01:06:51,438 Uh... 1061 01:06:53,577 --> 01:06:56,036 When I went up to suite 1504, 1062 01:06:56,126 --> 01:06:59,244 I saw a company called Collins Investigations. 1063 01:06:59,334 --> 01:07:01,718 You see, these companies are filling lawsuits 1064 01:07:01,808 --> 01:07:03,972 that cost $3 million to defend against, 1065 01:07:04,062 --> 01:07:08,310 and they're all based right here in your office that's about 15 feet wide. 1066 01:07:08,400 --> 01:07:09,400 What's going on? 1067 01:07:09,490 --> 01:07:12,023 And he said, "Well, patents are property just like 1068 01:07:12,113 --> 01:07:14,541 anything else, and I have no further comment." 1069 01:07:14,631 --> 01:07:17,644 And that's when they, uh, showed me the door, 1070 01:07:17,734 --> 01:07:21,248 uh, and closed the door in my face, and this is the next thing I saw. 1071 01:07:21,338 --> 01:07:25,466 "Baxter Building, Law Offices," on the door. 1072 01:07:26,110 --> 01:07:31,025 The address for many many companies that file patent infringement lawsuits. 1073 01:07:31,115 --> 01:07:35,662 The baxter building law offices, 104 East Houston Street. 1074 01:07:35,752 --> 01:07:39,304 Mckool Smith, sounds like a law firm. 1075 01:07:41,358 --> 01:07:42,918 Mckool Smith. 1076 01:07:45,495 --> 01:07:47,595 Empty, nothing there. 1077 01:07:50,434 --> 01:07:53,410 Leggat Hagan, whatever that is. 1078 01:07:55,739 --> 01:08:00,087 East Texas Boot Company, gotta see who they are. 1079 01:08:23,433 --> 01:08:29,865 So, We're here at 211 West Tyler, - -On... it's a... 1080 01:08:30,940 --> 01:08:33,553 An address that a lot of lawsuits come from. 1081 01:08:33,643 --> 01:08:37,291 There doesn't seem to be anybody here. 1082 01:08:37,581 --> 01:08:42,765 So, uh, this company's been suing, uh, Intel, Dell, HP. 1083 01:08:43,687 --> 01:08:48,135 Yet, as far as what they produce, well, their office is kind of this... 1084 01:08:48,225 --> 01:08:52,595 Kind of run-down place with blackout shades and curtain behind it. 1085 01:08:52,685 --> 01:08:58,578 When I look up Aloft Media, "Aloft Media sues 10 COS. Over weather patent." 1086 01:08:58,668 --> 01:09:01,815 "Aloft Media sues s.A.P. Over messaging patent." 1087 01:09:01,905 --> 01:09:04,784 "Aloft Media LLC versus Yahoo." 1088 01:09:04,874 --> 01:09:10,657 "Adobe, Microsoft, accused of infringing on browser-related patents." 1089 01:09:10,747 --> 01:09:13,747 If you're wondering where these patent infringement lawsuits 1090 01:09:13,837 --> 01:09:18,232 are coming from, if it's from Aloft, or Stragent, or Azure, this is it. 1091 01:09:18,322 --> 01:09:23,303 So, uh... I guess this is, uh, I guess this is, uh, innovation, 1092 01:09:23,393 --> 01:09:25,993 American innovation, yeah. 1093 01:09:28,265 --> 01:09:32,679 55 addresses, each one a so-called business 1094 01:09:32,769 --> 01:09:36,483 that was spewing out nothing but patent infringement lawsuits. 1095 01:09:36,573 --> 01:09:39,586 Almost every office was deserted or registered agent, 1096 01:09:39,676 --> 01:09:43,323 or in one case, a mailbox at a UPS store. 1097 01:09:43,413 --> 01:09:49,269 But the businesses claimed in the lawsuits did not even exist. 1098 01:09:55,459 --> 01:09:59,011 And the lawsuits just keep on coming. 1099 01:09:59,896 --> 01:10:02,886 The people behind the curtain do not want to be discovered. 1100 01:10:02,976 --> 01:10:04,076 You know who they are? 1101 01:10:04,166 --> 01:10:05,166 No. 1102 01:10:05,535 --> 01:10:06,835 But there has to be. 1103 01:10:06,925 --> 01:10:09,683 Some way we can find someone on the inside. 1104 01:10:09,773 --> 01:10:13,253 Someone that's a real... Patent troll. 1105 01:10:13,343 --> 01:10:17,963 There was the famous case of the scanner troll, who sent thousands of letters 1106 01:10:18,053 --> 01:10:22,853 to small businesses demanding payment for companies that used scan to email. 1107 01:10:22,943 --> 01:10:25,565 No, no, we all ready know who that guy is. 1108 01:10:25,655 --> 01:10:27,301 That's Steven Hill. Next. 1109 01:10:27,391 --> 01:10:33,873 There was a patent troll that sent thousands of letters to cafes and hotels, 1110 01:10:33,963 --> 01:10:36,438 and a bakery, and a funeral parlor, 1111 01:10:36,528 --> 01:10:39,579 Demanding payment just for providing wi-fi. 1112 01:10:39,669 --> 01:10:42,749 Ah. I don't know about that one. 1113 01:10:42,839 --> 01:10:44,289 Let's see, patent troll says. 1114 01:10:44,379 --> 01:10:48,411 ANYONE USING Wi-Fi INFRINGES ON HIS PATENT. 1115 01:10:49,379 --> 01:10:53,360 He won't sue individuals at this stage. 1116 01:10:53,450 --> 01:10:54,561 The guy behind this? 1117 01:10:54,651 --> 01:10:57,551 A lawyer, named Raymond Niro. 1118 01:10:58,488 --> 01:11:00,900 A real life patent troll in chicago. 1119 01:11:00,990 --> 01:11:02,857 I gotta see this for myself. 1120 01:11:10,334 --> 01:11:16,550 I am the person that was involved in the whole business of what a patent troll is. 1121 01:11:16,640 --> 01:11:17,784 Patents are property. 1122 01:11:17,874 --> 01:11:21,321 They're issued by the government, after an examination. 1123 01:11:21,411 --> 01:11:24,591 And then a court looks at them and says they're good or bad. 1124 01:11:24,681 --> 01:11:30,610 If I have a patent for wi-fi, that's specific, and is useful and novel, 1125 01:11:30,700 --> 01:11:32,633 then yeah, it's my property. 1126 01:11:32,723 --> 01:11:36,109 And if you infringe it, you have to pay me a license fee. 1127 01:11:36,199 --> 01:11:39,968 But I would wanna look more carefully at what somebody's telling you, 1128 01:11:40,058 --> 01:11:43,378 that they were abused by somebody that sent them a letter 1129 01:11:43,468 --> 01:11:47,202 and they went out of business because of it, because I'm not buying that. 1130 01:11:47,292 --> 01:11:49,442 You come to me and say, "mister Niro, there 1131 01:11:49,532 --> 01:11:51,782 are a bunch of people that are using my idea. 1132 01:11:51,872 --> 01:11:52,986 Can you help me?" 1133 01:11:53,076 --> 01:11:55,926 I say, "Sure, I'll try to help you, license your patent". 1134 01:11:56,016 --> 01:11:57,056 I go talk to them. 1135 01:11:57,146 --> 01:12:00,127 I say, "Listen, you're using this guy's invention. 1136 01:12:00,217 --> 01:12:01,717 You gotta pay them a royalty." 1137 01:12:01,807 --> 01:12:03,698 "No, I'm not gonna pay him." 1138 01:12:03,788 --> 01:12:04,865 What do we do? 1139 01:12:04,955 --> 01:12:07,934 I go to you and I say, "What do you want to do?" 1140 01:12:08,024 --> 01:12:10,069 You say, you know, "I wanna stop them." 1141 01:12:10,159 --> 01:12:11,538 I want them to pay me. 1142 01:12:11,628 --> 01:12:13,607 They're stealing my property. 1143 01:12:13,697 --> 01:12:16,042 They came to my house and took my goods. 1144 01:12:16,132 --> 01:12:18,845 They went on my farm and took my animals. 1145 01:12:18,935 --> 01:12:21,381 They infringed my patent. 1146 01:12:21,471 --> 01:12:23,417 "They took my property." 1147 01:12:23,507 --> 01:12:25,319 I say, "Okay, I'll help you." 1148 01:12:25,409 --> 01:12:27,921 If it's meritorious, I'll help you. 1149 01:12:28,011 --> 01:12:29,856 Is there something wrong with that? 1150 01:12:29,946 --> 01:12:31,024 Is that un-american? 1151 01:12:31,114 --> 01:12:32,959 Is that wrong? I don't get it. 1152 01:12:33,049 --> 01:12:35,249 You know, I tell juries in closing argument, 1153 01:12:35,339 --> 01:12:40,867 I say, a patent is sorta like having a property, and you build a flower patch. 1154 01:12:40,957 --> 01:12:44,338 My wife loves flowers. I build a flower patch in my front yard. 1155 01:12:44,428 --> 01:12:45,505 Beautiful flowers. 1156 01:12:45,595 --> 01:12:48,995 Maybe even I commercialize it, but I don't have to commercialize it, 1157 01:12:49,085 --> 01:12:51,385 I don't have to have a nursery, and sell them. 1158 01:12:51,475 --> 01:12:55,449 And beautiful... It's my property, I paid for it. I grow the flowers. 1159 01:12:55,539 --> 01:12:58,418 And some guy comes along and walks right through it. 1160 01:12:58,508 --> 01:13:00,387 Crushes the flowers. 1161 01:13:00,477 --> 01:13:02,177 Puts a path right down the middle. 1162 01:13:02,267 --> 01:13:03,657 What am I supposed to say? 1163 01:13:03,747 --> 01:13:05,659 "Oh, that's great? It's okay. 1164 01:13:05,749 --> 01:13:08,462 You can trespass on my property?" 1165 01:13:08,552 --> 01:13:10,864 No, you say, "I don't want you to do that." 1166 01:13:10,954 --> 01:13:13,900 That's a patent lawsuit. That's patent infringement. 1167 01:13:13,990 --> 01:13:19,206 You have trespassed on my property, and all I'm asking you, to do two things. 1168 01:13:19,296 --> 01:13:22,242 Stop doing it, and pay me for the compensation, 1169 01:13:22,332 --> 01:13:25,613 for replanting the flowers that you just destroyed. 1170 01:13:25,703 --> 01:13:27,415 Is that bad? Is that evil? 1171 01:13:27,505 --> 01:13:29,217 Is that wrong? I don't think so. 1172 01:13:29,307 --> 01:13:31,157 I'd like to have somebody show me the 1173 01:13:31,247 --> 01:13:33,571 statistics on how often this doomsday scenario 1174 01:13:33,661 --> 01:13:36,491 that you guys seem to be portraying really happens. 1175 01:13:36,581 --> 01:13:38,910 How frequently is a company run out of business 1176 01:13:39,000 --> 01:13:41,066 'cause of a patent infringement lawsuit? 1177 01:13:41,156 --> 01:13:44,833 You know what, I'll bet you can't find a hundred cases like that. 1178 01:13:44,923 --> 01:13:50,005 And if you can find a hundred cases like that, then let congress take care of it. 1179 01:13:50,095 --> 01:13:51,975 But 1,000? 2,000? Never happens. 1180 01:13:52,065 --> 01:13:55,647 Show me the statistics that this type of abuse of process, 1181 01:13:55,737 --> 01:13:58,137 has driven a thousand companies out of business. 1182 01:13:58,227 --> 01:14:02,027 Show me that. If you can show me that, get the thousand people, line 'em up, 1183 01:14:02,117 --> 01:14:03,810 and have them sign an affidavit. 1184 01:14:03,900 --> 01:14:06,365 "I was driven out of business 'cause of a patent 1185 01:14:06,455 --> 01:14:08,760 infringement suit that cost me $3 million." 1186 01:14:08,850 --> 01:14:13,041 You know what? I don't think you can get a thousand. I don't think you can get 500. 1187 01:14:13,131 --> 01:14:16,599 I don't even think you can get 100. But I challenge you to do it. 1188 01:14:16,689 --> 01:14:19,112 You can't do it because people that are 1189 01:14:19,202 --> 01:14:22,037 sued are locked up in their non-disclosure agreements. 1190 01:14:22,127 --> 01:14:25,159 They're not allowed to talk about what happened to them. 1191 01:14:25,249 --> 01:14:27,528 That's why you can't get a thousand people. 1192 01:14:27,618 --> 01:14:29,610 Nonsense. They can talk about it. 1193 01:14:29,700 --> 01:14:33,914 ...Because they are forced to settle because the alternative was to... 1194 01:14:34,004 --> 01:14:36,351 Who? Who was forced to settle? Who? 1195 01:14:36,441 --> 01:14:39,785 The people that signed the non-disclosure agreement. 1196 01:14:39,875 --> 01:14:41,841 Who are the people? Who are the people? 1197 01:14:41,931 --> 01:14:45,119 Identify the people. Give me the list. Give me their names. 1198 01:14:45,209 --> 01:14:47,592 Give me their addresses. Give me the lawsuit. 1199 01:14:47,682 --> 01:14:49,467 You know what? You can't do it. 1200 01:14:49,557 --> 01:14:55,317 You know why you can't do it? You bought into the propaganda. 1201 01:15:15,400 --> 01:15:18,958 -You know what? You can't do it. -You know why you can't do it? 1202 01:15:19,048 --> 01:15:20,660 You bought into the propaganda. 1203 01:15:20,750 --> 01:15:25,098 If McKool Smith and other firms of significance stopped taking patent cases, 1204 01:15:25,188 --> 01:15:28,334 where are the people that have meritorious inventions, where 1205 01:15:28,424 --> 01:15:29,769 where are they gonna go? 1206 01:15:29,859 --> 01:15:31,571 Whoa! Stop, stop, stop. 1207 01:15:31,661 --> 01:15:36,275 Time out. McKool Smith, McKool Smith I know that name. 1208 01:15:36,365 --> 01:15:38,612 Where have I heard that name? 1209 01:15:38,702 --> 01:15:39,946 That's right. 1210 01:15:40,036 --> 01:15:44,584 There were McKool Smith signs all over that patent troll hive in Texas 1211 01:15:44,674 --> 01:15:48,722 that spat out all those lawsuits from those abandoned office buildings. 1212 01:15:48,812 --> 01:15:52,225 Of course Raymond Niro knows who McKool Smith is. 1213 01:15:52,315 --> 01:15:58,632 The deeper I dug, the more I realized that this network of greed was interconnected. 1214 01:15:58,722 --> 01:16:02,172 And there's something interesting about this address too, by the way. 1215 01:16:02,262 --> 01:16:03,970 McKool Smith's own office, 1216 01:16:04,060 --> 01:16:07,974 which we have now confirmed is actually just a patent troll hive, 1217 01:16:08,064 --> 01:16:15,314 is across the street from the courthouse where the patent troll cases are tried. 1218 01:16:15,404 --> 01:16:22,316 Where we find Jellyfish Technology of Texas, in Motion LLC, Arksar LLC 1219 01:16:23,312 --> 01:16:28,976 Marshall Feature Recognition LLC, Hopewell Culture Design... 1220 01:16:30,954 --> 01:16:36,169 Weiland Technologies, Specialized Monitoring Solutions LLC, 1221 01:16:36,259 --> 01:16:38,872 they're all at 104 East Houston street. 1222 01:16:38,962 --> 01:16:43,180 On all these companies, they've all filed patent infringement lawsuits, 1223 01:16:43,270 --> 01:16:46,312 and they're all at the exact same address. 1224 01:16:46,402 --> 01:16:47,781 What is that address? 1225 01:16:47,871 --> 01:16:51,618 Well, here we are at the courthouse, look across the street, 1226 01:16:51,708 --> 01:16:54,972 and we see 104 East Houston street 1227 01:16:55,278 --> 01:16:58,628 if the judges and juries hearing these patent infringement lawsuits 1228 01:16:58,718 --> 01:17:02,762 wanted to find out what "business" were filing these lawsuits, 1229 01:17:02,852 --> 01:17:06,596 they would have to walk about 50 yards. 1230 01:17:07,757 --> 01:17:10,725 The juries would have to walk about 50 yards 1231 01:17:10,815 --> 01:17:13,940 to see that the lawsuits that they're hearing 1232 01:17:14,030 --> 01:17:18,111 are coming from abandoned offices across the street. 1233 01:17:18,201 --> 01:17:25,251 And the lawyers and judges in east Texas are dragging these lawsuits out for years. 1234 01:17:25,341 --> 01:17:27,921 So Kevin said these people are all corrupt. 1235 01:17:28,011 --> 01:17:30,711 That is a heck of a charge. 1236 01:17:31,080 --> 01:17:36,029 But, we've seen these trials being held across the street 1237 01:17:36,119 --> 01:17:41,067 from the patent troll hives that spew out the lawsuits. 1238 01:17:41,157 --> 01:17:43,657 Where the juries would have to walk about 50 yards 1239 01:17:43,747 --> 01:17:46,956 to see that the businesses filing the lawsuits don't even exist. 1240 01:17:47,046 --> 01:17:50,848 We've seen the judges that never toss out these lawsuits, 1241 01:17:50,938 --> 01:17:55,267 no matter how asinine they are, while their sons are racking up 1242 01:17:55,357 --> 01:17:59,686 the billable hours representing the trolls and their victims. 1243 01:17:59,776 --> 01:18:02,822 We've seen manufactured victims, 1244 01:18:02,912 --> 01:18:07,426 clearly empty companies that could not be hurt in any way, 1245 01:18:07,516 --> 01:18:11,130 by the rest of us working for a living. 1246 01:18:11,220 --> 01:18:13,366 But is it always this way? 1247 01:18:13,456 --> 01:18:18,928 Could it ever be that a lawyer might actually find someone 1248 01:18:19,162 --> 01:18:25,178 that believes he's the first person to think of some obvious idea? 1249 01:18:25,268 --> 01:18:27,418 Well, you remember our friend, Mike Skelps? 1250 01:18:27,508 --> 01:18:29,802 He makes a living by going to marathon races 1251 01:18:29,892 --> 01:18:32,185 and photographing all the marathon runners. 1252 01:18:32,275 --> 01:18:34,338 When he's done photographing the race, 1253 01:18:34,428 --> 01:18:37,156 he uploads each runner's picture to his website, 1254 01:18:37,246 --> 01:18:40,359 so you can look up the pictures by the bib number. 1255 01:18:40,449 --> 01:18:43,262 You know, the number on the marathon runner. 1256 01:18:43,352 --> 01:18:47,867 Needless to say, Mike was sued for patent infringement, and the guy that sued him, 1257 01:18:47,957 --> 01:18:54,389 claimed to own the idea of looking up a marathon runner's picture 1258 01:18:54,798 --> 01:18:57,498 by the number on his chest. 1259 01:18:58,534 --> 01:19:02,181 Who would take out such a ridiculous patent? 1260 01:19:02,271 --> 01:19:03,850 Meet Peter Wolf. 1261 01:19:03,940 --> 01:19:10,056 The essence of the patent was to allow people to search for their pictures, 1262 01:19:10,146 --> 01:19:15,494 event pictures, of... of marathon runners, or... or triathletes. 1263 01:19:15,584 --> 01:19:21,920 Uh, to allow them to search by bib numbers using a computer system. 1264 01:19:22,325 --> 01:19:25,825 Marathon photos started their business their business in the mid '70s, 1265 01:19:25,915 --> 01:19:29,175 so that had been around for a long time. 1266 01:19:29,265 --> 01:19:35,505 Uh, what I came up with in 1999 involved doing it on the internet. 1267 01:19:36,372 --> 01:19:38,752 It's a method of doing business. 1268 01:19:38,842 --> 01:19:40,453 And what is the method? 1269 01:19:40,543 --> 01:19:44,233 The method is to allow people to order the 1270 01:19:44,323 --> 01:19:48,739 pictures online, as opposed to the other method 1271 01:19:49,385 --> 01:19:54,300 of going through the postal office and sending letters back and forth. 1272 01:19:54,390 --> 01:19:59,205 The difference is I'm not sure if I can even explain it. 1273 01:19:59,295 --> 01:20:06,879 It's... More... For attorneys to hover over and recognize the difference. 1274 01:20:07,503 --> 01:20:13,722 You know, I'm fairly lay at this, but uh... So in 2006, when the patent issued. 1275 01:20:14,643 --> 01:20:16,856 I thought I was home free. 1276 01:20:16,946 --> 01:20:21,427 I ended up contacting some attorneys and asked them what we could do. 1277 01:20:21,517 --> 01:20:25,261 Uh, they said, "well, we can sue them." 1278 01:20:25,588 --> 01:20:29,268 When we filed a claim against mister Skelps, 1279 01:20:29,358 --> 01:20:33,973 it forced him to hire attorneys here in California, 1280 01:20:34,063 --> 01:20:39,578 and I used my existing California attorneys, uh, to, uh, fight the battle, 1281 01:20:39,668 --> 01:20:45,351 the legal battle of proving that he was indeed infringing on the patents. 1282 01:20:45,441 --> 01:20:51,105 If the patent is presumed valid, and they don't adhere by it 1283 01:20:51,347 --> 01:20:54,027 they run the risk of being punished. 1284 01:20:54,117 --> 01:20:59,498 And then my attorney would have to respond, uh, and this gets very legal. 1285 01:20:59,588 --> 01:21:01,588 And, you know, I had no qualms about it. 1286 01:21:01,678 --> 01:21:05,115 I, uh, I felt somewhat sorry for mister. 1287 01:21:05,205 --> 01:21:09,237 Skelps, uh, uh, What's his name? 1288 01:21:09,365 --> 01:21:12,245 -Mike Skelps. -Mike Skelps, yeah, mister Skelps. 1289 01:21:12,335 --> 01:21:14,735 -Uh... -Why do you feel sorry for him? 1290 01:21:14,825 --> 01:21:18,175 Because I think he spent an awful lot of money uh, trying to fight, 1291 01:21:18,265 --> 01:21:22,330 when we could have sat down and resolved these issues, uh, rather reasonably. 1292 01:21:22,420 --> 01:21:26,981 -How... how reasonably? -What do you mean by "rather reasonably"? 1293 01:21:27,071 --> 01:21:32,906 Uh, I mean, I don't want to go into the monetary, uh, situation, 1294 01:21:32,996 --> 01:21:39,390 but I have probably about a dozen licensees or had a dozen licensees 1295 01:21:40,329 --> 01:21:47,913 that just came and we reached a reasonable agreement, that did not impose, um... 1296 01:21:50,273 --> 01:21:53,073 hardship on them in any way. 1297 01:21:53,977 --> 01:21:59,158 And they simply paid me a small royalty, a reasonable royalty. 1298 01:21:59,248 --> 01:22:03,562 Gosh, I just can't imagine imagine the $300,000 settlement offer, 1299 01:22:03,652 --> 01:22:08,096 the requirement to make the lawsuit stop, represents their not 1300 01:22:08,186 --> 01:22:12,630 wanting to be a burden on somebody that's making $30,000 a year. 1301 01:22:14,163 --> 01:22:18,644 Quite frankly, I think the lawyers that negotiated for me, 1302 01:22:18,734 --> 01:22:25,166 you know, they were shooting high, willing to settle for a lot less. 1303 01:22:25,374 --> 01:22:28,026 Um, what Mr. Skelps... 1304 01:22:28,116 --> 01:22:33,070 Now they were putting hundreds of thousands of dollars into this, 1305 01:22:33,160 --> 01:22:36,162 to file all the necessary paperwork. 1306 01:22:36,252 --> 01:22:39,198 So those lawyers wanted to get something out again. 1307 01:22:39,288 --> 01:22:42,969 And that's usually the consequence once a lawsuit is filed. 1308 01:22:43,059 --> 01:22:44,938 Is... is he a patent attorney? 1309 01:22:45,028 --> 01:22:48,041 Is... does he represent the United States patent office? 1310 01:22:48,131 --> 01:22:54,755 Once the patent office issues a patent, that patent is presumed valid. 1311 01:22:55,504 --> 01:22:58,768 Okay? Unless it is proven invalid. 1312 01:22:59,208 --> 01:23:04,290 The patent is presumed valid, just like a person is presumed innocent, 1313 01:23:04,380 --> 01:23:10,263 a patent is presumed valid if it is issued by the United States patent office. 1314 01:23:10,353 --> 01:23:13,099 Who is he to say that it is not valid? 1315 01:23:13,189 --> 01:23:15,598 When the patents were overturned, 1316 01:23:15,688 --> 01:23:20,073 did you return any of the money to the people that, uh, had to pay you? 1317 01:23:20,163 --> 01:23:25,611 No, typically in a license agreement, you explicitly say that any money 1318 01:23:25,701 --> 01:23:28,214 that has been paid is non-refundable. 1319 01:23:28,304 --> 01:23:32,651 The agreements that we wrote were... Involved non-disclosure agreements 1320 01:23:32,741 --> 01:23:35,154 and they... they were also confidential. 1321 01:23:35,244 --> 01:23:37,490 I have a... quite a few patents. 1322 01:23:37,580 --> 01:23:42,328 I wanted to know, what makes a good event photograph? 1323 01:23:42,418 --> 01:23:46,499 Is it important to photograph the entire body, or just the chest up? 1324 01:23:46,589 --> 01:23:48,101 Or, get the face? 1325 01:23:48,191 --> 01:23:50,336 Most people like to see their face. 1326 01:23:50,426 --> 01:23:54,540 One of the answers that I got was that a good event photograph includes, 1327 01:23:54,630 --> 01:23:57,230 for runners at least, to show the legs. 1328 01:23:57,320 --> 01:23:59,712 That's the most important part. 1329 01:23:59,802 --> 01:24:01,869 Because they run with the legs. 1330 01:24:02,632 --> 01:24:07,253 Whereas before, I was taking pictures of the chest and up, 1331 01:24:07,343 --> 01:24:13,226 so, now, it became obvious to me that, uh, getting their legs in the picture 1332 01:24:13,316 --> 01:24:15,028 would be of value. 1333 01:24:15,118 --> 01:24:19,332 We came up with the idea of putting an advertisement into the photograph, 1334 01:24:19,422 --> 01:24:23,310 branding and advertising into the photograph, 1335 01:24:23,400 --> 01:24:26,572 and getting paid by the advertiser, 1336 01:24:26,662 --> 01:24:32,411 and giving the pictures away for free to the, uh, participants. 1337 01:24:32,501 --> 01:24:34,061 Huh. 1338 01:24:34,237 --> 01:24:36,137 That's fascinating. 1339 01:24:36,339 --> 01:24:39,818 If you leave out garbage, you're gonna get cockroaches. 1340 01:24:39,908 --> 01:24:44,723 If you leave out garbage patents, you're gonna get patent trolls. 1341 01:24:44,813 --> 01:24:47,443 So, the question we should all be asking is, 1342 01:24:47,533 --> 01:24:50,163 who keeps approving the garbage patents? 1343 01:24:50,253 --> 01:24:53,503 I'm Robert Williams, I'm an attorney, formerly a patent examiner. 1344 01:24:53,593 --> 01:24:57,703 How much time does a patent examiner give to a patent? 1345 01:24:57,793 --> 01:25:01,240 Okay, the, uh, quota that each examiner has to meet under 1346 01:25:01,330 --> 01:25:04,443 the count system is a certain number of counts per week. 1347 01:25:04,533 --> 01:25:09,315 Uh... uh, an examiner at a high level will only have about four hours to... 1348 01:25:09,405 --> 01:25:13,419 Per each count that they have to get within that quota system. 1349 01:25:13,509 --> 01:25:16,522 So, of course when I hear that, what I hear is, 1350 01:25:16,612 --> 01:25:20,710 an examiner has four hours to decide if a patent is valid. 1351 01:25:20,800 --> 01:25:21,800 Mm-hmm. 1352 01:25:21,890 --> 01:25:24,839 I've currently been in litigation over someone 1353 01:25:24,929 --> 01:25:28,267 that's suing me for patent infringement now for three years. 1354 01:25:28,357 --> 01:25:32,581 And this three-year absurdity of a lawsuit 1355 01:25:33,862 --> 01:25:37,034 was started by somebody that had only had four hours. 1356 01:25:37,124 --> 01:25:38,124 Mm-hmm. 1357 01:25:38,301 --> 01:25:42,248 To pop the patent out of... out of his office with an approval. 1358 01:25:42,338 --> 01:25:43,549 Doesn't that seem crazy? 1359 01:25:43,639 --> 01:25:47,354 That someone is only allocated four hours to approve a patent 1360 01:25:47,444 --> 01:25:51,391 that could then result in years and years and years of litigation? 1361 01:25:51,481 --> 01:25:55,214 I do think that time is one of the challenges that the USPTO is facing 1362 01:25:55,304 --> 01:25:59,291 in terms of allowing the examiners adequate time to do an in-depth search, 1363 01:25:59,381 --> 01:26:02,595 and to prepare a detailed office action that prevents 1364 01:26:02,685 --> 01:26:07,053 that presents the most salient issues into the record and, um, you know, first, 1365 01:26:07,143 --> 01:26:10,266 to just identify that best evidence, but also to consider 1366 01:26:10,356 --> 01:26:13,253 and apply the best available evidence to make that, 1367 01:26:13,343 --> 01:26:16,717 um, prosecution as... as short and effective as possible. 1368 01:26:16,807 --> 01:26:19,237 The examiner is primarily gonna look at previous 1369 01:26:19,327 --> 01:26:22,007 patents applications, or previously-issued patents. 1370 01:26:22,097 --> 01:26:25,156 Primary body of knowledge that the patent examiners draw from 1371 01:26:25,246 --> 01:26:27,547 is actually what's already been patented. 1372 01:26:27,637 --> 01:26:31,557 The applicant is essentially given the benefit of the doubt that they are 1373 01:26:31,647 --> 01:26:35,567 in fact the inventor and that their invention is new and not obviousness. 1374 01:26:35,657 --> 01:26:37,977 The way the statutes are written, section 102, 1375 01:26:38,067 --> 01:26:40,754 103, is that it defaults to a patent being allowed. 1376 01:26:40,844 --> 01:26:43,808 It says that an inventor shall be entitled to a patent. 1377 01:26:43,898 --> 01:26:46,548 Again, the default position is that it is patentable. 1378 01:26:46,638 --> 01:26:51,417 Of the IPR's that go through the full process and reach a final decision 1379 01:26:51,507 --> 01:26:56,151 on the merits, roughly 75% or more, uh, were completely invalidated. 1380 01:26:58,400 --> 01:27:01,323 So why were they approved in the first place? 1381 01:27:01,413 --> 01:27:04,062 The only answer I can give as to why 1382 01:27:04,152 --> 01:27:06,865 those patents were approved in the first place 1383 01:27:06,955 --> 01:27:09,668 is because the examiner decided, based on the evidence 1384 01:27:09,758 --> 01:27:12,008 that was available to him or her at the time, 1385 01:27:12,098 --> 01:27:14,940 that that application merited being allowed as a patent. 1386 01:27:15,030 --> 01:27:18,274 You're gonna have to forgive me for asking here, 1387 01:27:18,364 --> 01:27:20,610 uh, "method of swinging on a swing." 1388 01:27:20,700 --> 01:27:21,700 Mm-hmm. 1389 01:27:21,805 --> 01:27:24,091 This was approved November... 1390 01:27:24,181 --> 01:27:26,835 -Priority date, November 17, 2000. -Mm-hmm. 1391 01:27:26,925 --> 01:27:29,255 Have you seen this one before? 1392 01:27:29,345 --> 01:27:32,258 You know, I think this probably is an... an example 1393 01:27:32,348 --> 01:27:34,898 of a limitation of the evidence that was available. 1394 01:27:34,988 --> 01:27:37,738 People may have used that method of swinging on a swing 1395 01:27:37,828 --> 01:27:42,468 prior to the putative invention date but there's no documentary evidence of it 1396 01:27:42,558 --> 01:27:47,131 and so if you have to act based on evidence and there's no evidence 1397 01:27:47,221 --> 01:27:51,444 available to contradict it then legally we're kind of stuck. 1398 01:27:51,534 --> 01:27:53,575 So, there was no evidence that 1399 01:27:53,665 --> 01:27:55,974 anyone had swung on a swing sideways before, 1400 01:27:56,064 --> 01:28:00,018 and since there was no evidence of that, the patent had to be approved. 1401 01:28:00,108 --> 01:28:04,234 Um, that's the only conclusion that I can draw but I don't know 1402 01:28:04,324 --> 01:28:08,449 specifically what went on during the prosecution of this patent. 1403 01:28:14,990 --> 01:28:17,767 Uh, in 1999, no one had ever thought 1404 01:28:17,857 --> 01:28:20,506 of a stick that a dog could fetch before. 1405 01:28:20,596 --> 01:28:22,308 How could that be approved? 1406 01:28:22,398 --> 01:28:25,979 Uh, again, I... that... I guess that does seem obvious 1407 01:28:26,069 --> 01:28:28,919 certainly applying our common sense test for obviousness, 1408 01:28:29,009 --> 01:28:32,951 um, I've... can only... I don't know what evidence the examiner had access to 1409 01:28:33,041 --> 01:28:36,141 and what was in that record when that application was examined 1410 01:28:36,231 --> 01:28:38,589 but apparently the examiner concluded based 1411 01:28:38,679 --> 01:28:41,294 on that record that it was in fact patentable. 1412 01:28:41,384 --> 01:28:44,456 Sorry, Daisy, you can't have it. 1413 01:28:46,389 --> 01:28:50,936 So, apparently you can own an idea, no matter how obvious, 1414 01:28:51,026 --> 01:28:53,839 if you can just convince the United States Patent Office 1415 01:28:53,929 --> 01:28:56,375 that it's never been patented before. 1416 01:28:56,465 --> 01:28:59,143 So, let's summarize how patent trolling works. 1417 01:28:59,233 --> 01:29:03,553 In the movie, "The Big Short", Margot Robbie, in a bubble bath, 1418 01:29:03,643 --> 01:29:08,621 apparently naked, explained how the home mortgage fraud was committed by the banks. 1419 01:29:08,711 --> 01:29:11,657 Now I'd love to hire her to explain how patent 1420 01:29:11,747 --> 01:29:14,693 trolling works as well, but I can't afford her. 1421 01:29:14,783 --> 01:29:18,997 But, I did manage to get us a plumber from New Jersey. 1422 01:29:19,087 --> 01:29:21,834 Let me tell you how to become a patent troll. 1423 01:29:21,924 --> 01:29:24,737 First, take out a stupid patent. 1424 01:29:24,827 --> 01:29:27,506 It don't matter how stupid it is, believe me. 1425 01:29:27,596 --> 01:29:30,809 Two, form a dummy corporation in east Texas. 1426 01:29:30,899 --> 01:29:35,436 That's the best place to sue people from, 'cause the judges are... How do you say? 1427 01:29:35,526 --> 01:29:38,076 Sympathetic to your cause, if you know what I mean. 1428 01:29:38,166 --> 01:29:42,759 Three, rent an abandoned office building as an address for your fake business. 1429 01:29:42,849 --> 01:29:45,691 Let me know, I might be able to help you with that. 1430 01:29:45,781 --> 01:29:50,062 Four, find victims that are too small to defend themselves, 1431 01:29:50,152 --> 01:29:52,931 but not too small that they don't have no money. 1432 01:29:53,021 --> 01:29:55,321 Five, now you sue them. 1433 01:29:58,561 --> 01:30:01,740 Six, use some dummy name on the lawsuit. 1434 01:30:01,830 --> 01:30:04,042 You don't want no one to know who you are. 1435 01:30:04,132 --> 01:30:06,912 Only lawyers need to use their real name. 1436 01:30:07,002 --> 01:30:12,858 Seven, offer an average settlement of let's say, uh, $340,000. 1437 01:30:13,208 --> 01:30:15,654 Make sure to call it a licensing fee. 1438 01:30:15,744 --> 01:30:20,726 Eight, force your victim to sign a non-disclosure agreement, 1439 01:30:20,816 --> 01:30:24,560 so they can't say what you did to them. 1440 01:30:24,820 --> 01:30:27,132 Nine, just sit back and watch your buddies, 1441 01:30:27,222 --> 01:30:30,969 the east Texas judges, refuse to toss out the case, 1442 01:30:31,059 --> 01:30:33,759 'cause their sons get to take the cases on both sides. 1443 01:30:33,849 --> 01:30:34,873 It's perfect. 1444 01:30:34,963 --> 01:30:42,451 Ten, use the money you just made to repeat the steps one through nine, forever. 1445 01:30:42,605 --> 01:30:43,685 I'm done. 1446 01:30:43,775 --> 01:30:46,399 You've seen how this affects me and many other 1447 01:30:46,489 --> 01:30:48,934 small business owners all over the world. 1448 01:30:49,024 --> 01:30:52,090 But how does patent trolling leak into your life? 1449 01:30:52,180 --> 01:30:58,096 Well, here's a recent patent, it's for a communication device, 1450 01:30:58,186 --> 01:31:01,700 capable of being used for voice communication. 1451 01:31:01,790 --> 01:31:03,135 Yup. 1452 01:31:03,225 --> 01:31:05,771 It's a patent for the telephone. 1453 01:31:05,861 --> 01:31:13,253 And it was a approved by the United States Patent Office on August 17 of 2010. 1454 01:31:14,202 --> 01:31:17,527 Yup, the United States Patent Office approved a 1455 01:31:17,617 --> 01:31:20,941 patent for the telephone on August 17 of 2010. 1456 01:31:23,679 --> 01:31:28,761 And here's a little glance at the details of this patent. 1457 01:31:28,851 --> 01:31:30,228 Dial. 1458 01:31:30,318 --> 01:31:31,518 Connected. 1459 01:31:31,920 --> 01:31:32,920 Send. 1460 01:31:33,321 --> 01:31:34,321 Over? 1461 01:31:34,923 --> 01:31:36,243 Disconnect. 1462 01:31:36,559 --> 01:31:37,559 End. 1463 01:31:37,726 --> 01:31:40,326 Yes, that's in the patent: 1464 01:31:40,696 --> 01:31:42,596 How to use a phone. 1465 01:31:43,932 --> 01:31:50,749 The patent trolls have now patented how to use a telephone so they're suing Apple. 1466 01:31:50,839 --> 01:31:52,739 Here's the lawsuit: 1467 01:31:53,075 --> 01:31:56,955 Apple's accused iphones are capable of being used for voice communication. 1468 01:31:57,045 --> 01:32:00,258 Apple's accused iphones have two cameras. 1469 01:32:00,348 --> 01:32:05,130 Apple's accused iphones have a camera and a display on the same side of the phone. 1470 01:32:05,220 --> 01:32:07,470 Apple's accused iphones have a camera located 1471 01:32:07,560 --> 01:32:11,504 on the side of the iphone that is opposite the display. 1472 01:32:11,594 --> 01:32:16,509 Apple's accused iphone is capable of displaying its location on its display. 1473 01:32:16,599 --> 01:32:22,167 Apple's accused iphones are wireless communication devices. 1474 01:32:23,205 --> 01:32:26,565 The "664" patent is presumed valid. 1475 01:32:27,342 --> 01:32:30,703 So now, of course, Apple's having to pay huge legal 1476 01:32:30,793 --> 01:32:34,632 costs in defending themselves in court, fees, obviously, 1477 01:32:34,722 --> 01:32:39,064 that are passed on to you and me every time we buy an iphone. 1478 01:32:39,154 --> 01:32:41,634 No wonder these Apple devices are so expensive. 1479 01:32:41,724 --> 01:32:43,669 We're paying off the patent trolls. 1480 01:32:43,759 --> 01:32:46,138 But I have a Samsung Galaxy. 1481 01:32:46,228 --> 01:32:49,684 Oh, John, they're suing Samsung too. 1482 01:32:50,332 --> 01:32:51,332 Oh. 1483 01:32:53,669 --> 01:32:54,669 Hmm. 1484 01:32:55,370 --> 01:32:57,182 Of course they're suing Samsung. 1485 01:32:57,272 --> 01:32:59,585 Of course they're suing all of us. 1486 01:32:59,675 --> 01:33:01,875 They're patent trolls. 1487 01:33:02,110 --> 01:33:06,238 Now, who would file such an asinine lawsuit? 1488 01:33:06,682 --> 01:33:08,782 Well, in this case, it's a company called. 1489 01:33:08,872 --> 01:33:11,296 Corydoras Technologies, LLC. 1490 01:33:11,386 --> 01:33:15,868 You all ready know they're a shell company designed to hide whoever's behind it. 1491 01:33:15,958 --> 01:33:20,773 But every lawsuit lists the lawyers that are filing it 1492 01:33:20,863 --> 01:33:24,743 so the victims can call the lawyers to offer their settlement. 1493 01:33:24,833 --> 01:33:28,313 We can find out who the lawyers are every time. 1494 01:33:28,403 --> 01:33:34,186 So, what lawyers would ever press such a case against, effectively, all of us? 1495 01:33:34,276 --> 01:33:37,176 The answer is, these lawyers. 1496 01:33:37,680 --> 01:33:39,980 These ones, right here. 1497 01:33:40,282 --> 01:33:42,795 And notice, they're all from Texas. 1498 01:33:42,885 --> 01:33:44,863 Hmm. What a coincidence. 1499 01:33:44,953 --> 01:33:51,673 So, these people are effectively suing all of us for using cell phones. 1500 01:33:51,860 --> 01:33:54,907 I had to give them a call and ask why. 1501 01:33:56,300 --> 01:33:59,845 -This is Betty. -Yeah, Elizabeth Derieux please. 1502 01:33:59,935 --> 01:34:01,246 It's me. 1503 01:34:01,336 --> 01:34:05,336 Hey, um, this is Austin Meyers speaking, I am looking at a lawsuit, um, 1504 01:34:05,426 --> 01:34:09,154 of, uh, Corydoras Technologies versus Apple... 1505 01:34:09,244 --> 01:34:12,294 -Uh-huh. -...Where apparently Corydoras 1506 01:34:12,384 --> 01:34:15,034 uh, claims to own the idea of a communications device 1507 01:34:15,124 --> 01:34:17,696 capable of being used for voice communication. 1508 01:34:17,786 --> 01:34:19,286 Am I understanding that right? 1509 01:34:19,376 --> 01:34:22,326 Does Corydoras own the patent for a communications 1510 01:34:22,416 --> 01:34:24,632 device used for voice communication? 1511 01:34:24,722 --> 01:34:27,906 -I represent Corydoras... -Uh-huh. 1512 01:34:27,996 --> 01:34:30,496 -...In that matter. -Uh-huh. 1513 01:34:30,586 --> 01:34:33,074 And I... I'm not sure 1514 01:34:33,164 --> 01:34:36,849 like, are you connected with Corydoras in some way? 1515 01:34:36,939 --> 01:34:41,241 I just have not met you and... No, I'm not connected with Corydoras, no. 1516 01:34:41,331 --> 01:34:42,420 Okay? 1517 01:34:42,510 --> 01:34:47,125 So, does Corydoras own the idea of using a, uh... 1518 01:34:47,215 --> 01:34:51,196 A device capable of being used for voice communication? 1519 01:34:51,286 --> 01:34:55,136 Corydoras owns the patent that's asserted in the litigation, yes. 1520 01:34:55,226 --> 01:34:58,403 And does that patent claim to own a... 1521 01:34:58,493 --> 01:35:02,074 A device capable of being used for voice communication 1522 01:35:02,164 --> 01:35:06,004 as stated in your lawsuit, paragraph 16? 1523 01:35:07,248 --> 01:35:10,048 I'm just not sure what you're asking me, I. 1524 01:35:10,138 --> 01:35:12,188 I'm asking... What I'm asking... 1525 01:35:12,278 --> 01:35:16,228 Yeah sure, I'd be happy to be more clear about my question, certainly. 1526 01:35:16,318 --> 01:35:21,775 I'm asking if Corydoras owns the idea of a device being used for voice communication. 1527 01:35:21,865 --> 01:35:24,665 Because that's... that's what you state in your lawsuit, 1528 01:35:24,755 --> 01:35:26,702 with your signature at the bottom. 1529 01:35:26,792 --> 01:35:29,375 And so I'm wondering if you actually believe that. 1530 01:35:29,465 --> 01:35:32,049 I'm happy to call you back at a... 1531 01:35:32,139 --> 01:35:35,204 At a time when I have a little more time to discuss this. 1532 01:35:35,294 --> 01:35:38,251 So right now, you're not able to tell me whether 1533 01:35:38,341 --> 01:35:41,695 -whether this... This company owns... -You know what? 1534 01:35:41,785 --> 01:35:46,151 I mean, I don't even know who you are, and I'm not sure exactly what you're asking. 1535 01:35:46,241 --> 01:35:49,091 If you're asking... if you're just reading the complaint, 1536 01:35:49,181 --> 01:35:51,337 I don't have the file in front of me... 1537 01:35:51,427 --> 01:35:54,090 I... I am reading the complaint, yes... 1538 01:35:54,180 --> 01:35:57,380 If you're just reading the complaint, Yeah. 1539 01:35:57,470 --> 01:36:02,131 The answer is that the matters asserted in the complaint are accurate 1540 01:36:02,221 --> 01:36:04,834 to the best of my knowledge at this time. 1541 01:36:04,924 --> 01:36:07,724 The language in the complaint is accurate. 1542 01:36:09,131 --> 01:36:11,181 Polasek, Quisenberry & Errington. 1543 01:36:11,271 --> 01:36:13,021 Yes, John Polasek, please. 1544 01:36:14,236 --> 01:36:15,686 May I have your name? 1545 01:36:15,776 --> 01:36:17,315 Sure, Austin Meyer. 1546 01:36:17,405 --> 01:36:21,053 -Please hold. -Mm-hmm. 1547 01:36:25,513 --> 01:36:28,763 Hi, Mr. Meyer, may I ask what this call is in regards to? 1548 01:36:28,853 --> 01:36:32,097 Uh, yes, this is with regards to, uh, 1549 01:36:32,187 --> 01:36:38,043 patent infringement suit between Corydoras and Apple computer. 1550 01:36:40,128 --> 01:36:42,925 Okay, well, Mr. Polasek is not in. 1551 01:36:43,015 --> 01:36:45,811 Would you like to leave a message for him? 1552 01:36:47,100 --> 01:36:48,100 Hello? 1553 01:36:48,190 --> 01:36:51,416 Yeah, Ottis Carroll please. 1554 01:36:51,506 --> 01:36:53,118 Uh, this is he. 1555 01:36:53,208 --> 01:36:55,358 Hi, this is Austin Meyer speaking. 1556 01:36:55,448 --> 01:36:59,057 I'm looking at a, uh, lawsuit, filed against, uh, Apple computer, 1557 01:36:59,147 --> 01:37:01,093 a patent infringement lawsuit, 1558 01:37:01,183 --> 01:37:05,698 um, on behalf of a company called Corydoras Technologies, LLC. 1559 01:37:05,788 --> 01:37:09,168 And I notice in this lawsuit that you claim, that, uh, 1560 01:37:09,258 --> 01:37:12,618 Corydoras, LLC, owns the idea of a communication device 1561 01:37:12,708 --> 01:37:15,805 that is capable of being used for voice communication, 1562 01:37:15,895 --> 01:37:19,046 or at least it would seem by my reading of the lawsuit. 1563 01:37:19,136 --> 01:37:21,686 Am I misunderstanding something about that lawsuit? 1564 01:37:21,776 --> 01:37:25,826 Uh, you know what? You might not be, but you're talking to the wrong guy. 1565 01:37:25,916 --> 01:37:28,751 You need to call a patent lawyer who's involved in it. 1566 01:37:28,841 --> 01:37:31,032 I need to call who? I'm sorry. 1567 01:37:31,122 --> 01:37:32,750 Uh, you need to call... 1568 01:37:32,840 --> 01:37:36,540 There's another lawyer listed, one of the patent lawyers, give him a call. 1569 01:37:36,630 --> 01:37:39,633 -Uh, John Polasek? -Yeah, give him a call. 1570 01:37:39,723 --> 01:37:42,623 I'm just curious, why is your name on the lawsuit 1571 01:37:42,713 --> 01:37:45,871 if you're not the right person to talk to about said lawsuit? 1572 01:37:45,961 --> 01:37:47,361 Well, you know what? 1573 01:37:47,451 --> 01:37:50,523 I don't have any reason to talk to you right now. 1574 01:37:54,602 --> 01:37:58,884 Okay, I think everyone in the room understands patent trolling now. 1575 01:37:58,974 --> 01:38:02,020 But does the federal government understand it? 1576 01:38:02,110 --> 01:38:08,026 When, uh, someone asserts a claim that's not valid, that's called patent trolling. 1577 01:38:08,116 --> 01:38:13,031 And when they do that, they are threatening a business, 1578 01:38:13,121 --> 01:38:19,972 usually a business, sometimes it's an individual, with, uh, enormous costs. 1579 01:38:20,062 --> 01:38:26,211 Uh, litigation costs, uh, costs of having to pay damages in the claim. 1580 01:38:26,301 --> 01:38:28,782 Then what they're effectively doing is keeping 1581 01:38:28,872 --> 01:38:31,353 good products from getting to the marketplace, 1582 01:38:31,443 --> 01:38:34,467 extorting money from legitimate businesses, 1583 01:38:34,557 --> 01:38:37,289 and stifling new start-up businesses. 1584 01:38:37,379 --> 01:38:39,124 Okay, so they know about it. 1585 01:38:39,214 --> 01:38:40,214 Good. 1586 01:38:41,049 --> 01:38:44,096 Well it takes a lot of things for a bill to become a law, 1587 01:38:44,186 --> 01:38:46,836 and so, even though this got the overwhelming support 1588 01:38:46,926 --> 01:38:49,902 of the house, and was voted very strongly out of there, 1589 01:38:49,992 --> 01:38:53,038 uh, there... it never made it out of committee 1590 01:38:53,128 --> 01:38:58,343 in the senate side because, um, Harry Reid reportedly said, "Over my dead body" 1591 01:38:58,433 --> 01:39:01,046 that this would actually um, you know, discussed, 1592 01:39:01,136 --> 01:39:05,183 and that was because of his support from the trial lawyers. 1593 01:39:05,273 --> 01:39:06,713 Um... 1594 01:39:11,279 --> 01:39:15,311 Uh, okay. Um... That would've been really good footage. 1595 01:39:15,401 --> 01:39:17,333 It makes me wanna strangle Harry Reid. 1596 01:39:17,423 --> 01:39:20,499 Yeah, I mean, you might wanna... You can say... reportedly. 1597 01:39:20,589 --> 01:39:23,168 -I don't know if that... -You said "reportedly." 1598 01:39:23,258 --> 01:39:25,508 -I did? Okay. All right. Good. -Um. 1599 01:39:25,598 --> 01:39:27,158 Oh, so close! 1600 01:39:29,164 --> 01:39:34,012 They know about patent trolling, but they just don't care. 1601 01:39:34,102 --> 01:39:40,352 They're siding with the trial lawyers, and hanging the rest of us out to dry. 1602 01:39:40,442 --> 01:39:43,015 Of course, most lawmakers are lawyers, 1603 01:39:43,105 --> 01:39:46,524 so maybe that shouldn't have surprised me at all. 1604 01:39:46,614 --> 01:39:49,879 So many software developers out there who have been shut down, 1605 01:39:49,969 --> 01:39:52,236 their apps have been pulled out the stores, 1606 01:39:52,326 --> 01:39:56,102 their websites have been shut down, or, they simply settle, and they pay, 1607 01:39:56,192 --> 01:39:59,539 and it's just lining the pockets of these patent holders who 1608 01:39:59,629 --> 01:40:02,976 aren't really doing anything with that intellectual property. 1609 01:40:03,066 --> 01:40:05,366 So, I think it's just like a... Like a... a... 1610 01:40:05,456 --> 01:40:07,728 It's an extra tax on our skill, on our craft. 1611 01:40:07,818 --> 01:40:11,599 And is the tax decided by the... the government and the voters? 1612 01:40:11,689 --> 01:40:12,689 No. 1613 01:40:12,791 --> 01:40:14,241 Who decides the tax? 1614 01:40:14,331 --> 01:40:15,331 The lawyers. 1615 01:40:15,431 --> 01:40:17,455 Everyone should be concerned about this. 1616 01:40:17,545 --> 01:40:19,124 This is a $80 billion tax. 1617 01:40:19,214 --> 01:40:20,214 Right? 1618 01:40:20,338 --> 01:40:23,058 Because they sue everybody and at the end of 1619 01:40:23,148 --> 01:40:26,021 the day all these costs show up in two forms: 1620 01:40:26,111 --> 01:40:29,572 One, good companies go out of business because they can't afford it, 1621 01:40:29,662 --> 01:40:32,023 so the consumer misses some great product or 1622 01:40:32,113 --> 01:40:34,618 service, or it gets passed on in increased... 1623 01:40:34,708 --> 01:40:36,929 Increased cost of goods, you know, so, it's 1624 01:40:37,019 --> 01:40:39,319 gonna cost the consumer at the end of the day. 1625 01:40:39,409 --> 01:40:40,412 Who's getting rich? 1626 01:40:40,502 --> 01:40:42,047 Once again, it's the lawyers. 1627 01:40:42,137 --> 01:40:43,287 Yeah. 1628 01:40:43,377 --> 01:40:50,388 Imagine if you wrote a book, and we had patents on books, and you had one guy 1629 01:40:50,478 --> 01:40:55,093 who got the patent to write books about whales, and he was the only guy, 1630 01:40:55,183 --> 01:40:57,633 and then you wanted to write a book about whales. 1631 01:40:57,723 --> 01:41:02,034 You'd have to go to Fred, who has the patent on whales, and get his permission, 1632 01:41:02,124 --> 01:41:07,139 maybe a license agreement, so that you too could write about that topic. 1633 01:41:07,229 --> 01:41:09,507 Doesn't that sound ridiculous? 1634 01:41:09,597 --> 01:41:12,644 Well, that's exactly what's going on in software, today. 1635 01:41:12,734 --> 01:41:14,579 That's how ridiculous it is. 1636 01:41:14,669 --> 01:41:17,182 And that's why it needs to be fixed. 1637 01:41:17,272 --> 01:41:23,821 Why don't we make software copywriteable, instead of patentable? And if we did that, 1638 01:41:23,911 --> 01:41:26,011 I think that would be a huge step forward. 1639 01:41:26,101 --> 01:41:30,795 I'm sorry, but any time I see a method of accomplishing blah, blah, blah, blah, 1640 01:41:30,885 --> 01:41:32,435 that scares the hell out of me. 1641 01:41:32,525 --> 01:41:37,435 It really, really does, because that's not patenting a physical device. 1642 01:41:37,525 --> 01:41:40,238 You know, like this microphone that's in front of me. 1643 01:41:40,328 --> 01:41:43,676 That is a physical design that does a specific thing. 1644 01:41:43,766 --> 01:41:45,578 That I believe is patentable. 1645 01:41:45,668 --> 01:41:49,349 But the method of accomplishing a task is ridiculous to me. 1646 01:41:49,439 --> 01:41:53,287 But there's so many of those method patents that are out there now 1647 01:41:53,377 --> 01:41:56,577 that you can't even run a simple website without getting popped. 1648 01:41:56,667 --> 01:41:58,376 It hurts innovation in a very, 1649 01:41:58,466 --> 01:42:01,696 very tangible and real sense because when a startup... 1650 01:42:01,786 --> 01:42:06,071 And there are numerous stories of startups, basically in the app space 1651 01:42:06,161 --> 01:42:09,297 or people who simply just produce podcasts, right? 1652 01:42:09,387 --> 01:42:12,857 Getting the threat letters, saying, "We will sue you because of", 1653 01:42:12,947 --> 01:42:15,702 for example, not because you produced a podcast, 1654 01:42:15,792 --> 01:42:18,746 but because of the way you're loading it onto Apple itunes 1655 01:42:18,836 --> 01:42:21,386 or something like that, something stupid like that. 1656 01:42:21,476 --> 01:42:23,976 Can you imagine the world we've been in right now, 1657 01:42:24,066 --> 01:42:26,686 if steve jobs, right out of college was just... 1658 01:42:26,776 --> 01:42:29,656 Was slided with IPK's That he couldn't get out of? 1659 01:42:29,746 --> 01:42:31,725 If Newegg software coders had gotten 1660 01:42:31,815 --> 01:42:35,328 this legal letter in 2001, saying, "if you program a shopping cart". 1661 01:42:35,418 --> 01:42:39,366 "You... you have to give us 1% of your revenue, forever," right? 1662 01:42:39,456 --> 01:42:42,436 Newegg wouldn't exist today, right? What a complete joke. 1663 01:42:42,526 --> 01:42:45,404 If we had gotten our lawsuit the same day we launched, 1664 01:42:45,494 --> 01:42:48,706 we would have to shut down immediately. That would have been it. 1665 01:42:48,796 --> 01:42:50,974 I would have been really angry about it, 1666 01:42:51,064 --> 01:42:54,014 but I would have had no resources to fight it at that point 1667 01:42:54,104 --> 01:42:57,857 or no idea whether or not I infringed and so I would have just walked away. 1668 01:42:57,947 --> 01:43:01,052 So the cost of this abuse is literally incalculable. 1669 01:43:01,142 --> 01:43:05,822 There are certain areas that are notoriously patent troll bait, 1670 01:43:05,912 --> 01:43:07,925 and I've had people say, 1671 01:43:08,015 --> 01:43:12,764 "I'm not gonna create a business there because there are too many patent trolls." 1672 01:43:12,854 --> 01:43:14,632 That's a loss for us in society. 1673 01:43:14,722 --> 01:43:16,301 That's a loss for the country. 1674 01:43:16,391 --> 01:43:19,715 It's hampering innovation because 1675 01:43:19,805 --> 01:43:23,129 people are afraid to write software because, 1676 01:43:23,219 --> 01:43:27,545 boy, somebody else must have some similar idea to that, 1677 01:43:27,635 --> 01:43:33,351 and sure enough, you can almost guarantee that there's some patent somewhere 1678 01:43:33,441 --> 01:43:37,555 that... somehow, any piece of software is gonna infringe on. 1679 01:43:37,645 --> 01:43:39,645 Yeah, it's absolutely impossible to tell 1680 01:43:39,735 --> 01:43:44,362 if you're about to be sued for patent infringement. 1681 01:43:44,452 --> 01:43:50,788 Why not start all over and just write a new app right now? 1682 01:43:51,526 --> 01:43:52,846 Wow. 1683 01:43:53,528 --> 01:43:56,841 I would love to write a new app. I really would. 1684 01:43:56,931 --> 01:44:01,379 But, there's also the fear of being sued again by something else. 1685 01:44:01,469 --> 01:44:04,895 I feel that the risk is too great for a small guy like me, 1686 01:44:04,985 --> 01:44:06,584 with no venture backing, 1687 01:44:06,674 --> 01:44:10,355 with no money in the bank to just try to start all over again. 1688 01:44:10,445 --> 01:44:12,895 This is not what the american dream is all about. 1689 01:44:12,985 --> 01:44:14,935 This is not why people start companies. 1690 01:44:15,025 --> 01:44:19,497 This is not the kind of attitude that makes people want to go build new things. 1691 01:44:19,587 --> 01:44:24,269 That's the challenge that... That entrepreneurs face, 1692 01:44:24,359 --> 01:44:31,655 and I thought that the american dream was something much different than that. 1693 01:44:32,667 --> 01:44:37,815 It just baffles me that this industry exists, it's allowed to exist 1694 01:44:37,905 --> 01:44:43,855 and that we have agencies, government agencies that... That get fat off it. 1695 01:44:43,945 --> 01:44:46,921 Someone needs to bring it down. 1696 01:44:48,816 --> 01:44:51,263 And now, here's how you fix it: 1697 01:44:51,353 --> 01:44:54,832 This is so easy to fix, it's ridiculous. 1698 01:44:54,922 --> 01:44:57,369 First of all, no more method patents. 1699 01:44:57,459 --> 01:44:59,571 Method patents are stupid. 1700 01:44:59,661 --> 01:45:03,011 It's just somebody writing down the steps he takes to do something. 1701 01:45:03,101 --> 01:45:05,810 No more software patents. 1702 01:45:05,900 --> 01:45:08,413 We have copyright for software. 1703 01:45:08,503 --> 01:45:11,383 You don't need to patent the whole damn idea. 1704 01:45:11,473 --> 01:45:13,785 No more 20-year duration. 1705 01:45:13,875 --> 01:45:19,291 Patents last 20 years because it took 20 years to recoup your investment 1706 01:45:19,381 --> 01:45:21,081 in the steam age! 1707 01:45:21,783 --> 01:45:26,286 Does it take 20 years for a product to go through its lifecycle today? 1708 01:45:26,376 --> 01:45:27,532 It's ridiculous. 1709 01:45:27,622 --> 01:45:30,835 Patents should obviously last about five years at the most. 1710 01:45:30,925 --> 01:45:36,941 You should file your lawsuits in the defendant's district, not east texas. 1711 01:45:37,031 --> 01:45:38,281 You wanna go sue someone? 1712 01:45:38,371 --> 01:45:40,071 Fine, go sue 'em. 1713 01:45:40,402 --> 01:45:44,982 Don't drag 'em to your abandoned office building in texas. 1714 01:45:45,072 --> 01:45:50,522 Trolls should reveal who they are, not hide behind dummy corporations. 1715 01:45:50,612 --> 01:45:53,445 How do you justify suing somebody when you're 1716 01:45:53,535 --> 01:45:56,394 afraid to even let anybody know who you are? 1717 01:45:56,484 --> 01:45:59,964 Don't sue someone just for using technology, 1718 01:46:00,054 --> 01:46:03,968 sue the person that claims to have invented it. 1719 01:46:04,058 --> 01:46:07,439 You can't just sue everyone that uses the Google store. 1720 01:46:07,529 --> 01:46:14,412 Don't sue someone if you make more money suing people than making things. 1721 01:46:14,502 --> 01:46:17,152 Of course that just sets the stage for patent trolls. 1722 01:46:17,242 --> 01:46:19,471 Do all these things now and we'll solve 1723 01:46:19,561 --> 01:46:22,023 the patent trolling problem for the future. 1724 01:46:22,113 --> 01:46:23,553 It's a snap. 1725 01:46:23,878 --> 01:46:26,758 And none of these things will cost any money to do. 1726 01:46:26,848 --> 01:46:30,162 In fact, it'll save taxpayer dollars because we won't have all 1727 01:46:30,252 --> 01:46:33,565 these expensive lawsuits gumming up the federal court system. 1728 01:46:33,655 --> 01:46:35,905 We don't have to throw money at this problem. 1729 01:46:35,995 --> 01:46:41,473 We just have to close the loopholes that the government left open. 1730 01:46:41,563 --> 01:46:42,763 That's it. 148081

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