All language subtitles for The Fall of the House of Murdaugh s01e06.eng

Martha maccallum: Convicted
murderer, alex murdaugh,

Back in a south
carolina courtroom,

Seeking a brand new trial.

His team says that rebecca
hill, the clerk of court,

Influenced the jury.

What matters is, is what
the jurors heard, what they

Perceived, and whether or
not it had any sort of effect

On the verdict.

Was your verdict
influenced, in any way,

By the communications of the
clerk of court in this case?

Juror c: No, ma'am.

Juror f: Absolutely not.

Juror l: No, ma'am.
Juror e: No.

Juror p: No.

Juror o: No, ma'am, it was not.

Juror y: No, ma'am.

Juror w: No, ma'am.
Juror q: No, ma'am.

Juror k: No.

Juror z: Yes, ma'am.

She made it seem like
he was already guilty.

I never talked to the jurors
about any of the evidence.

Attorney: Could you
answer with a yes or no?

Ms. Hill is not credible.

There was an extraneous
contact with these jurors.

Juror: She said a guilty
verdict would sell more books.

And did you tell her that
you were going to write a book

To make a bunch of money so
you could buy a lake walk

And build a house on it?

No, sir.

I find that the clerk
of court is not completely

Credible as a witness.

Ms. Hill was attracted by
the siren call of celebrity.

Did clerk of court
hill's comments

Have any impact on the
verdict of the jury?

I find that the answer
to this question is no.

I simply do not believe that the
authority of our south carolina

Supreme court
requires a new trial

On the strength of some
fleeting and foolish comments.

The defendant's motion for
a new trial must be denied.

In March of 2023, a jury of
12 found alex murdaugh, heir

To a powerful legal dynasty,
guilty in the murders

Of his wife, maggie,
and youngest son, paul.

Now nearly a year
later, those same jurors

Were brought back to court.

And once again, they came
face to face with murdaugh.

This time, it was in his
bid for a whole new trial.

He alleged that the clerk
of court, becky hill,

Had swayed the verdict in
order to boost her book sales,

An allegation that she denied.

Retired former chief
justice jean toal

Said that hill was blinded
by, quote, "the siren

Call of celebrity,"
and that she had made

Fleeting and foolish comments.

But she found, in
the end, they did

Not impact the jury's decision.

I sat down with two of
those jurors who are now

Speaking out for the
first time following

Murdaugh's failed bid.

We discussed the storm
of the new controversy.

First of all, thank you all
for sitting down with us today.

I know you may or may
not want to relive this.

When you think back to being
called to serve on this case--

Amie, let me start with you--

Is there anything that you would
tell yourself if you could look

Back on this experience when
you got that juror notice

That we're all familiar
with getting in the mail,

What would you say to
yourself at that point now?

I will have to find some
excuse to why I should

Not be on, should not serve.

You would not have served?

A part of me, thinking
back now, no, I wouldn't want

It to-- want it to have.

Why?

It was hard.

It was long.

And then afterwards, the chaos
afterwards was the worst part.

How has that chaos
affected your life?

You know, I just kept my faith
and believing that the truth

Would always come forth.

And that, you know, I
believe that we did,

We made the right decision.

So I just kept the
faith with that

And just believed
that everything would

Turn out the way it should.

What about you, gwen?

I wouldn't do
anything different.

I wouldn't say I enjoy it, but
it was a privilege to serve.

I felt that being
on there, I could--

I helped made a decision that I
thought was the right decision.

So it was good for me to serve.

How aware were you of the
murdaugh murders when you got

That notification to appear?

I don't know the
murdaughs at all.

As a matter of fact,
when I got my notice,

I put it to the side.

And then I remembered
like a week--

Three days before, that Friday,
I had took it down there.

I carried it in.

What about you, amie?

Did you-- had you
heard about it?

Read about the murders?

Yes, I knew all about
it, heard all about it,

And I knew of him, you know.

But he doesn't live-- they
didn't live that far from me.

And at first when I saw it,
I didn't realize what it was.

But as I was reading the
questions and I saw the date,

Then I realized,
oh my gosh, I think

This is the murdaugh case.

Yes.

Once you got on the
jury and you're chosen

And you know that you're
sort of in for the duration,

What do you remember first
about your interaction

With becky hill?

I guess the swearing in.

I think she swore us
in if I'm not mistaken.

This was her first
big trial as the clerk?

Sure.

Yeah.

So it was a big
moment for her?

Yeah.

No, no question.

She definitely saw it as an
opportunity to, you know,

Get a public name for herself.

There's no question.

What was your overall
impression of her

During this process?

I felt like she was
very accommodating.

She made sure we had
everything that we needed.

If there was an issue,
she took care of it

Because we all-- if
there was any questions

We asked the bailiff.

And the bailiff would call her.

And she would only come down
as far as I know when there was

An issue that she
needed to address

If somebody needed something.

And I asked one day,
could we have cheese--

What's the breakfast
thing I wanted?

The cheese-- I asked for
something and the next morning

It was there.

It was there.

Fruit, anything we asked
for, she made sure we had it.

That's-- I just felt like
she was very accommodating.

She was trying to do
whatever she could to make it

A little easier for you, guys.

Yeah.

So when she spoke to you about
preparing for the case and that

The defense--

The defense was
about to come out

And that there was a possibility
that it looked like alex

Murdaugh who you had been
hearing about this case all

Through the prosecution side
was going to take the stand

On his own behalf,
what do you remember

About learning that you were
going to hear from alex, amie?

I think I remember her
saying that maybe he would be

Testifying, but
that's pretty much

All I remember about
it because I remember

Her saying that
they were thinking

Of maybe extending the trial.

It might have to
go a few more days,

And that flipped
me completely out.

I just was exhausted and just
could not go any further.

And that was the
extent of it for me.

I didn't hear anything else.

Do you remember her ever
discussing the murdaugh family,

What she thought of them?

No.

Never.

That wasn't true.

Well, I didn't hear it.

Yeah.

Did any other jurors
say to you, oh well, she

Was talking to us about what
she thinks about the case

Or about murdaugh?

No.

No.

Nope.

So months after the verdict,
becky hill publishes a book

About the whole experience.

And what did you think about it?

I thought it was kind of
strange that a clerk of court

Was writing a book,
but I was like, it must

Be ok because she wrote it.

I did plagiarize,
mr. Harpootlian.

Dick hartpootlian: That's
stealing, isn't it?

It is.
Dick hartpootlian: Ok.

And for that, I'm very sorry.

And I have apologized.

And a lot of things
started coming up.

This charge of
plagiarism in her book,

Then we're going to talk a
little bit about the hearing

That you all were just part of.

But during that, even
the judge, we all

Know what the judge's decision
was, but said she thought there

Was some strange behavior.

Finally, you have
indicated about your book

That some things that you put
in there were, you called it,

Literary license, not
literally true, correct?

Correct.

When you heard about that,
that she had lifted pieces

From another writer
and put it in her book,

Did that seem
dishonest to you, gwen?

Yes, I couldn't believe it.

I was shocked.

Yeah, just the type of person
I thought she was, you know,

Just the time like I
said just looking at her,

It's like she said she
can look at people,

I'm kind of like that,
you know, you just kind

Of look at people and stuff.

And I was like, I
didn't know that.

And I even had to
go and kind of like

Read a little farther to see
exactly what she had done,

You know, as far
as the plagiarism

Because I didn't understand
it and I kept looking.

And I was like, well, how
did she get information?

So did you--
you read the book?

No.

I didn't even know she had
written a book until later

But I'm saying the
plagiarism part,

I was trying to figure out
how she got hold of it.

Amie williams: Right.

Yeah.

And did you read
the book, amie?

Pieces of it, not
the whole thing.

Martha maccallum: What
was your impression.

Did it feel like the experience
that you were part of or did

It feel--

No?

In what way no?

Well, she was writing
from her experience.

So I mean, she wasn't in
the jury room with us.

So it didn't speak to our
experience or my experience

At all.

Martha maccallum: So when you
went back to court last month

What was it like
when you went in

And you saw alex
murdaugh again, amie?

I just wanted to
make sure that he knew

That my verdict was based on the
evidence and witness testimony.

I tried-- I tried to make sure
I looked at him when I answered

The question but I also
wanted to make sure

I was looking at,
you know, the judge

But I wanted him
to know that, yes,

My verdict is still the same.

What about you, gwen?

What was it like when you first
went back to the courtroom

This time around and you saw
alex murdaugh sitting there?

I looked over there at him.

I didn't pay him a
lot of attention.

I directed my attention
towards judge toal.

You know, I want to make sure
that I understand everything

She was saying and that
she understood everything

That I was saying to her.

I did go back later and I
did look at the court tv

That they had in there that
day and he was the same.

And I just wanted to see that.

I want to see those eyes change
up, his demeanor changes.

And like I say, the way he
looks or just the way he fiddles

With his glasses sometime
or he does different things

He might even whisper to them.

He just changes and I
just wanted to see if he

Was the same-- the same way.

And he was.

You know, they
own their verdicts,

Which is a nice thing to see
that they were able to say this

Was my verdict and looked
at alex, which is not

An easy thing to do, and say
I found you guilty of killing

Your wife and your son.

You each talked about what
you saw sort of as the turning

Point in your
understanding of the case

And of whether or
not alex was guilty.

And part of it was
hearing his voice

On the recording at the kennel.

Tell me about that moment
during the trial for you,

Amie, and what impact
it did have on you.

Well, when I heard
his voice, you know,

I just thought, oh
my god, he was there

Because the whole time he
was saying he wasn't there

But he was actually there.

And I was like, oh my god.

And then things just kind
of progressed from there.

I mean, the evidence was
already coming together.

I feel that the prosecution
did a good job proving

That it was family
weapons that were used

And certain other things.

But that was a pivotal moment.

And when everyone else in
his family and colleagues

Identified 100% that that
was his voice, it was big.

And what voices did you hear?

Paul's, ms.
Maggie, ms. Stella.

And how sure are you now?

Positive.

100%.

I'm 100% sure.

I'm 100% sure.

So for you, the timeline
meant that it had to be him,

That he had the opportunity.

Yes.

Martha maccallum: What
about for you, gwen?

What was the turning
point for you?

It was the recording.

I felt the same way.

I sit there and I listen to
all the evidence and stuff,

And that was towards the end.

And with paul's phone,
and then when they were

Able to get into it and get it.

And I just kind of thought that
maybe he kind of thought they

Would never get into the phone.

But when they got into the
phone and I heard his voice,

I was like, ok, he did it.

You know, there's no way--
no other way to put it.

I just felt that that was
the moment I got my answer.

And what did you
think of his answer

When he was asked about
that on the stand, amie?

I mean, the
first thing he said

Was when he was
asked why did he lie,

He said, oh, what a
tangled web we weave.

You continue lying after
that night, did you not?

Once I lied, I
continued to lie.

Yes, sir.

Why?

You know, oh what a
tangled web we weave.

I was thinking, that's
the best you can do?

You're on trial for your life.

Let me ask you something
based on another interview

That I did with buster murdaugh.

You were there when he testified
and answered questions.

He believes that his father
is innocent in the killing

Of his mother and his brother.

What do you think
about that, amie?

Well, I mean, of
course, it's his father.

That's what he
believes and no one

Can take that away from him.

And I can't really
say anything about it

Because that was his father.

He probably doesn't even want
to believe that he would kill

His mother and his brother.

What did you
think about buster,

His testimony when you
watched him up there?

Buster just kind of
answered the questions

That were given to him.

I just say, I just don't think--

I don't think buster
actually believes

His father didn't do it.

I'm just thinking
deep down inside

But he only has his
father left and he

Wants to hold on to that.

Martha maccallum: So then when
you heard there was a big news

Conference, dick harpootlian
and jim griffin came out,

And they said that they
were accusing becky hill

Of violating murdaugh's
constitutional right

To a fair and impartial jury.

And that the clerk of court
had tampered with the jury,

Advising them not to
believe murdaugh's testimony

And other evidence that was
presented by the defense

And pressuring them to reach
a quick guilty verdict.

What was your reaction when
you heard him say that?

Absurd.

It was insane.

I couldn't believe it.

And I just couldn't believe it.

I was like, it's so insulting
to think that we didn't have

The god-given common sense
that he gave us an intelligence

To make a decision
based on the evidence

And the witness testimony that
we had given an oath to do.

And that's what we did.

That's what I did.

You know, martha, he from
the podium said to the jurors,

I'm going to get
your text messages,

Your emails, and your
telephone records,

Almost accusing the jurors.

That's how I got involved
because I was representing

Victims and when I heard,
you're going after jurors,

They need to lawyer up.

And so that's how I got
contacted to represent

Five of the jurors.

It's just-- it was
so over the top.

You know, they came
out like a lion

Making all these
accusations, saying

The jurors were pressured
to reach a quick verdict.

You know, these are jurors.

They come with their common
sense, their life experiences,

And their education.

They have 24 years,
24 sets of eyes,

And they can assess
truth or false.

And that's what
these jurors did.

And to insinuate that
they didn't vote based

On their conscience but they
could be so malleable that one

Or two comments that
were allegedly made,

They would vote somebody to be
guilty of killing their wife

And their son and do
the rest of their life

In prison, that is offensive.

- Very offensive.
- Very.

Very, very.

Yes.

Tell me-- yeah, you're
shaking your head.

I was livid because
it shouldn't be amazing

But it's still
amazing how people

Will believe a lie quicker
than they will the truth.

And no one had no idea what
was going on during this trial.

When you sit on a jury,
especially for 6 weeks,

Then you can maybe speak to
what might have happened.

But there were a lot
of things going on

Personally in our
lives and then we

Had to come in there every day.

We were locked in a room when
we weren't in the courtroom.

I mean, so it was
a weight on us,

We had to make
sure it was right.

And also, there was
always a question about,

Oh they never had notebooks,
they never took notes.

We were not allowed
to take notebooks out,

But we had them in the back.

So as soon as we ran back,
if there was something I had

A question on or anyone
else who had a notebook,

We wrote it down.

And every time it was answered,
we would mark through it

Or-- and that's how-- that's
how we kept, you know,

Kept up with everything in
evidence and everything.

Did you keep those notebooks?

Yes.

You know, I didn't keep notes.

I kept mental notes.

I'm real good, you know,
I just kept mental notes.

I made sure I paid attention.

I want to make sure I was there
from the beginning to the end.

And I was there.

Sitting there listening
to all the evidence.

I consider myself to
be an intelligent woman

And, you know, I'm able
to make my own decisions.

I'm not easily persuaded.

And I'm not--

I'm not a follower.

So you know, I'm going to get
the evidence, weigh it out,

You know.

I know, ok, this is not true.

This is, you know, this
is true or whatever.

Yeah, and I felt
very offended by it.

But you know, even--

Not even with that
with them, even

With just some of the people,
just in general, you know,

I guess because
we're from a small

What do you call this country
bumpkins, like country hicks.

- Yeah.
- What they would think.

Yeah.

What is it, a smart country
bumpkins in walterboro.

Yeah.
And I think--

You get the wall street
journal in walterboro, yes?

Yes.

Did it give you
confidence in the system,

The judicial system going
through this process or not?

I didn't have a problem
with the judicial system.

You know, not a
judicial system just--

It's just funny
how things change.

You know, people change.

I was just surprised that
it would come up to--

I didn't know it would
get this far, you know.

I thought we would render the
verdict and that would be--

It was over.

--That would be that.

And when all this came,
I couldn't believe it.

I was like, oh--

So shocked.

You know, the jury system is
so important to our country.

We fought the
revolutionary war over it,

And we won to have impartial
jurors and a fair system.

And I'm afraid that
this whole process has

Turned people off from
serving on a jury,

Exactly what amie said.

You know, you asked her first
question, looking back on it,

Would you have
wanted to do this?

And she said not sure.

And you know, when jurors are
attacked by a party lawyer

And saying that you yourselves
have to get a lawyer,

I think the system's breaking a
little bit, getting stretched.

Well, he said that
I couldn't believe it.

I had-- my friends were
texting me left and right.

Oh, my god, he said you--

Have so you know, people
were thinking that we

Had done something wrong.

And we didn't.

We didn't do anything wrong.

And justice toal was clear
about that to every juror

When she-- she was very clear.
- Been very clear.

I love that.

--That this has nothing
to do with you, jurors.

You have done
absolutely nothing wrong.

None of you, not any of you.

You didn't ask to serve, but
you served and did your duty.

I love the way that
she handled everything,

The way she handled us, she
was very good, very wise.

Martha maccallum: So did anyone
ever indicate to you, becky

Or anybody else, to
watch him very closely,

Watch him really closely
when he gets up there?

Amie williams: No.
Gwen generette: No.

I didn't hear that part.

She never--

Amie williams: The
jurors didn't really

Talk you know like people
might have thought we did--

Gwen generette: We didn't do
a lot of talking like that.

Amie williams: All we could
talk about was our families,

Our children, our jobs.

So we got to know
each other really well

And we became pretty close.

Martha maccallum: But you
didn't discuss the case at all?

What about when you went out
to moselle, to the property?

Becky wrote in her book
about sort of knowing glances

Between people when they looked
at the distances and the feed

Room, and down at the
kennel that there was

Some acknowledgment
in between people

Looking at the scene, amie?

And what was-- tell me, do
you remember that at all?

Amie williams:
No, I have no idea

What she was talking about.

I stayed with the judge.

I looked around.

I stayed with judge newman,
I followed him and his clerk.

We walked with him down to the
house and back to the swamp.

And I don't ever remember becky
being close to any jurors.

I don't-- because he
explicitly said no talking

And only ask him questions.

And that's what we did.

What about you, gwen?

What do you remember about that?

I had problems with
my knees so I recall,

And they brought me
up there in the van,

And they walked down
towards the house.

And I stayed kind of back.

So I'm thinking ms. Becky was up
towards the house so I never--

I was never near her
when we went to moselle.

And I kind of stayed
around towards the room.

And I started up there
but I never really--

I don't think I actually
made it up to the house--

Martha maccallum: Did you--

Gwen generette: --To around.

What did you draw
from that visit?

Was that a pivotal
moment for you?

That kind of added on
to the recording, yes.

Don't forget,
martha, that we have

Two gunmen supposedly coming
on the property without guns.

So two hitmen are going to
come to a rural property

Without guns and
they're going to break

Into a house to get your guns
to shoot your wife and son.

And you know, I'm
from philadelphia,

You're from up north, you
go onto a southern property,

A southern farm in the
middle of the night,

You're going to take your
life in your own hands.

So I don't know too many
hitmen who go to a property

Without weapons.

Martha maccallum: So the
statements that were attributed

To becky hill,
watch him closely,

This is going to be an epic
day, look at his actions,

Look at his movements--

Eric bland: Don't believe
the defense was another one.

What did ms. Hill say?

To watch his actions,
to watch him closely.

Eric bland: She made a comment
about watch his body language.

Did you feel pressured
to reach a verdict quickly?

I didn't know.

No.

No.

Not by becky hill?

No.

She made it clear--

She said that the judge--

Judge newman stated that
we had until 10 o'clock

To make a verdict.

That was the time
that we were given.

But if we didn't, it was fine.

She found a hotel.

We would have to be
sequestered which made sense.

We were in deliberations.

We didn't know we would
be deliberating that day

But it made sense.

And I'm sure she would
have made arrangements

For us to get whatever
we needed, you know,

Personal items for that.

But there was no
pressure whatsoever.

And the forelady, I
mean, she even told us

When we were in there alone
and the door was locked,

She told us we don't
have to do this tonight.

If you're too tired, you
don't have to do this tonight.

We don't have to do it.

And even after we
came to our verdict,

She said, if you don't feel
comfortable with your decision,

We don't have to go out there.

We can stay here or we can
come back in the morning

Until you are comfortable.

I don't know how many
times she said that.

I don't see how
anyone felt pressured.

We kept going over the
information, all the evidence.

We kept going.

We watched videos.

We answered questions
because I know

It was a couple of
questions about the guns

And trying to kind of explaining
that and some of the guys,

You know, they're into
the crime shows and stuff

They were able to explain it.

But I didn't feel
any pressure at all.

None.

And I was surprised we weren't
sequestered from the beginning

So we were lucky, you know.

We were able to go home.

And far as the smoke
break, they got

Your smoke breaks and stuff.

And I guess it was
kind of last minute.

It wasn't, you
know, go deliberate.

It wasn't becky's decision.

But I guess she knew
that we couldn't

Go out once it started.

They knew that.

- That was common sense.
- Yeah.

We were in deliberations.

Common sense, yeah.

They were rolling
the evidence in.

You can't go out.

So that made sense to you?

It made perfect sense.

You can't smoke until--

It wasn't like--

--Done deliberating
for the day.

Right.

It wasn't like she
attacked the smokers.

They got their breaks a lot
but so you know, I don't smoke.

They got their breaks a lot
but it was kind of last minute.

I was like, oh they're finished.

And it was kind of deliberate
so of course you can't go out.

And another thing I wanted to
say as far as with ms. Becky,

She didn't interact
with us a lot

Because mr. Bill
was the one that we

Interact with all the time.

If you had a question--

Eric bland: The bailiff.
- Bailiff.

The bailiff.

If you had a question, you
had to go through mr. Bill

To ms. Becky.

During the trial,
did becky hill

Either drive or ride
with you in a vehicle

Before or after court?

No, ma'am.

All right.

Did you ever hear that she and
bill drove a juror home from--

I was surprised to hear that.

I was surprised.

And the juror, we asked
her and she said no.

I was surprised.

I was like, where did
you get a ride with her?

I was surprised.

That was the first
time I've heard that.

She did have car
problems but most times,

It was someone when the
jurors would take her,

Either someone
would pick her up.

You know, but I
was just surprised

To know that ms. Becky--

That was a testimony
that was contradicted

By the barnwell
clerk of court that

Came in and said that,
you know, she had

Addressed that with ms. Becky.

And I mentioned to ms. Becky.

I said, please
tell me you didn't

Take a juror home last night.

And she told me she
says, I did but I

Didn't talk about the case.

I had a bailiff with--

Mr. Bill was with me.

I said, becky, you don't
do things like that.

And becky testified that
never happened so that was one

Of the conflicting things
that justice toal said

I questioned your credibility.

You write that you and he
took a juror home one night?

Did you tell her that?

Did you take a juror
home one night?

I didn't take a
juror home one night.

No, sir.

Mr. Polk and you take
a juror home one night?

No, sir, we didn't.

So you never gave a juror
a ride in a car with mr. Polk

Or without?

No, sir.

Do you think she
should lose her position?

I do.

I think, you know,
they're called

The honorable for a reason.

Honorable becky hill
as the clerk of court.

I think that you have
to have the trust

And confidence of those that
you serve in walterboro.

And the fact that our former
chief justice who is a highly

Accomplished jurist said
that I find you not credible

Is bad for our justice system.

And I would hope that the
governor acts on that.

And we need judges, we need
court personnel, everybody that

Is going to be above reproach.

So what did you think when
you heard juror z get up there

And had an exchange
with judge toal,

And judge toal did all
of the questioning which

Was interesting, and
she said, did you ever

Hear ms. Hill make any
comment about the case

Before the verdict?

Juror z: Yes, ma'am.

If yes, what did ms. Hill say?

Juror z: To watch his actions.

Jean toal: To watch his actions?

What else?

Juror z: To watch him closely.

Jean toal: To watch him closely.

Anything else you remember?

Juror z: There is,
but I can't remember.

Ok, that's fine.

Was your verdict
influenced in any way

By the communications of the
clerk of court in this case?

Juror z: Yes, ma'am.

Jean toal: And how
was it influenced?

Juror z: To me, it felt like--

She made it seem like
he was already guilty.

Did that affect your finding
of guilty in this case?

Juror z: Yes, ma'am.

Jean toal: All right.

Did you read
about that exchange

Or hear about it after?

Afterwards, I looked at it.

I mean, I watched it but I
can't speak to her state of mind

Or what she felt she
might have heard.

I can't speak to that.

I just know that I didn't
hear any of the things

That she said was said.

And I kind of felt like
she seemed a little

Nervous, a little afraid maybe.

I'm not sure.

But because she took
a long time to answer.

And so I can't speak to
why or her state of mind.

I just know what I heard.

Gwen, were you surprised
knowing this juror

From the deliberations?

I was kind of surprised
because I sit by her every day.

So I was kind of surprised.

And even in the
deliberations in the back

There, she didn't express that
she had a problem with it.

She looked at the evidence
that we looked at,

And she didn't express that she
had a problem, that she might

Felt swayed to go another
way because she could

Have voiced it back there.

And she didn't.

The ones that kind
of had an idea,

We kind of knew, but she
wasn't one of those, you know.

And I was just surprised.

I felt she was persuaded
by the defense.

You know, martha, in her
first affidavit that was given

To the court, she
said it was-- her

Verdict was the based on juror
pressure inside the jury room.

Juror pressure under
the law is not a basis

To overturn a verdict
because jurors, always,

There's a give and
take in the jury room.

If there's two people
that say he's not guilty

And 10 people that
say he's guilty,

You're going to
feel the pressure

When 10 people would say,
look at this, look at that.

She just said that there
was juror pressure.

If you say it was juror
pressure, but then she changed,

I was very surprised at her.

The other thing that was said
when they said that they were

Going to try to
overturn the case

Was that there was
a misrepresentation

Of critical material
information to the trial,

To the trial judge by becky
hill and that she had a campaign

To remove a juror
that she believed

Was favorable to the defense.

So that she wanted a guilty
verdict, that she surmised

That one of these jurors was
leaning a little bit more

Towards a not
guilty verdict, what

Was your understanding of this
juror who was removed and why,

Gwen?

They referred to
her as the "egg lady."

The egg lady.

Yeah, the egg lady.

Have you brought everything
that you have outside of--

You left some stuff in there?

What do you have in there?

Dozen eggs--

Say it again?

A dozen eggs.

A dozen eggs?

Well, her and the other lady,
they rode together every day.

I thought it was strange
they rode together.

And the egg lady had
to be reminded almost

Constantly about discussing
things either on the bus,

On the van in the morning,
or back in the back.

She had to be
constantly reminded that

She cannot discuss the trial.

So--

And who was
reminding her of that?

Gwen generette: The forelady
on the van in the morning

Or the forelady, or just might
someone else just might say

Something to her about
it, just make a gesture,

You know, shh, you can't
talk about that or whatever.

Was there any
indication to you

That she was leaning towards
a not guilty verdict?

Maybe a little bit
when I think about it now

Because she was so
vocal and she was always

Wanting to talk and stuff.

Yeah.

Martha maccallum: What do you
remember about the egg lady,

Amie?

Well, she wasn't in the room
I was in so I didn't hear her.

And we didn't end up on
the same van all the time.

So I wasn't really sure.

Sometimes when I was on
the van, I heard her say--

I did hear her say
some things sometimes

But I was not really sure
what she was going to vote,

But she was, she was a little
vocal and made you think maybe.

But you weren't really
sure what it would be.

And I was trying to focus on the
evidence because it was a lot.

And you had to stay focused
on what was presented to us.

So there were-- all of these
things about the facebook post

And whether or
not becky hill may

Have fabricated a facebook post
and brought it to the judge.

There were confusions over the
date of when it was posted,

Whether or not it really
could have come from her.

What is your take, eric, on
the reasoning for her removal

And whether or not it was fair?

I can't judge whether it
was fair because I wasn't

Back in the chambers
with judge newman

When he made that decision.

But he made the decision not
because of the facebook post

But because she was
talking about the case

With others outside the
jury room in the courthouse.

And that was an express
instruction of judge newman

Not to talk about
the case to family

Members or third parties.

And she admitted that
she had done that.

So his reasoning that
he gave for removing her

From the jury, martha, was
because of her discussions

Outside the courthouse.

Let me ask you both about
what you think the motive was.

And do you think that he had
been planning it for some time,

Or that it was an
impulsive move that night?

Gwen.

I have different
thoughts on it.

I think it was appeals.

I think it was appeals.

And then I think maybe maggie
expected certain things

From him and he wasn't
going to be there

To produce them in the end.

So he had to get rid of them.

And then paul, paul was
going to have him bankrupt.

So you know, with the case
coming up and all of that,

He wasn't going
to have any money

Anyway either way it went.

But I think the biggest
part was the drugs.

There were a lot
of things going on.

I mean, he needed money.

He needed to make sure that
the murdaugh name that's very,

Very, very important to him
more than anything else,

And he needed to
make sure that that

Was always held in high regard.

And now all these
things were coming

About with, the
boat case and paul

Maybe going to trial for it.

And then all the things
that he had done,

And whatever else may
have been going on.

I just think it was
a perfect storm.

Yeah, he had been
uncovered that he stole

My client's money, the
satterfield money, a month

And a half before.

That $4.3 million was missing.

He was also, on the
morning of the murders,

He was confronted by
jeannie seckinger,

The cfo of the law firm
that there was money

Missing from the law firm.

Mark tinsley, who represented
the mallory beach,

Was having a hearing
three days later to get

All his financial information.

So as amie said, there
was the perfect storm.

How many times
did you all pull

Yourselves to get
that guilty verdict

In those three hours twice?

Because that's
why I couldn't--

The first time,
foreperson just

Wanted to see where we were.

We had no idea who
voted, what we-- wrote

It down on a piece of paper.

And she just went through
and looked at the paper

And she really wasn't
going to tell us

What the number was but
one juror did want to know

So she told us it was nine.

Nine guilty, two not
guilty, one, not sure.

So from there, we went
to asking questions.

So nobody knew who voted what.

Nobody had a clue.

We didn't have a clue.

And we just went from
there, asking questions,

Anybody had a question.

Then that person--
the next person,

Somebody would
answer that question.

They would go get--
because you know,

Some of the evidence, the
jury room wasn't big enough.

They had to roll the
evidence into the other room.

And so some of the
guys would go and get

The evidence out of that room.

One guy worked a video.

We would go back and
watch certain clips.

We looked at certain pictures.

And so when all the
questions were answered

And nobody else had a
question, then we voted again.

We vote again.

Yeah.

And when we vote it
again, it was guilty.

Yeah, and you could kind of--
martha maccallum: Unanimous?

It was unanimous.

Guilty.

Yeah.

But she still made it clear.

If you're not sure, we
will not leave this room.

But everybody said we're sure.

Sounds like you guys were very
organized jurors, all of you.

Gwen generette: Yeah.

Great bunch of people.

Gwen generette: Yeah.

I loved each and
every one of them.

They are a great
bunch of people.

Are either of
you writing a book?

Yes.

Martha maccallum: Yes?

Tell me, tell me why.

Why do you want to write a book?

I got a lot of questions
after returning to work

And you know, I thought maybe I
should just tell my experience

As to what you go through
as a juror and the oath

That you have to keep.

And it's kind of like
an evidentiary book,

Really, where we just talk about
what I saw with the evidence

And it's just based
on my experience.

It doesn't include the
other jurors or anything.

It's just that.

So we're still in the
stages of writing that

And I just felt like people
wanted to know because I kept

Getting all these questions.

Well, you know, part of what
harpootlian and griffin have

Said is that becky wanted
to make money off of a book

And that she needed
a guilty verdict

In order to have a better book.

What do you say about
people who might

Criticize any effort to make
money off of this trial?

Well, if you're doing--

If you're doing it
just to make money

And you're doing
things maliciously,

Then it's not right.

As for me, you know, I'm just
trying to answer the questions

That are being asked.

And a lot of people keep
asking questions, how was it?

Or how-- you know, so I
was like I'm going to--

I'm going to write it down.

Martha maccallum:
That's your right.

Any financial gain from
this whole story, eric?

How do you respond to that?

Everybody's benefited from it.

This was the most important
case in our state's history.

So naturally, it's going to
take on a cottage industry.

I don't begrudge anybody for it.

I do agree with amie.

If you're doing it
solely for the money

And slanting the way you write
it to make it sensational,

Like becky said, that I was
disappointed when becky said,

Well, I took poetic
license in my testimony

And said that this person
may have been a criminal

Or this person may
have done that.

No, you don't write a
book that's nonfiction

And take poetic license.

That's called lying.

So gwen, do you
think this is over now?

Knowing the steps, no.

Eric bland: That's it, and
then you heard harpootlian say,

Well, if we lose
on the state level,

We'll go to the federal level.

So for these jurors,
it is over, martha.

They're not going to be
asked to do anything again.

But somewhere down the road,
you know, if a new trial is

Granted, there's going
to have to be, you know,

12-plus alternates
sitting in the box,

Going through this again.

Martha maccallum:
Eric, thank you.

Eric and gwen and amie, I
appreciate your time today.

All of you.

A pleasure to meet you and
thank you for speaking with me.

I appreciate it a lot.

Becky hill remains
under the cloud

Of two active criminal
investigations

Relating to the trial and to
her actions with the jury.

She is not currently
charged with any crime

And has not been
disciplined for engaging

In any professional misconduct.

Thanks for watching.

I'm martha maccallum.

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