Original subtitles

Martha maccallum: Convicted murderer, alex murdaugh,

Back in a south carolina courtroom,

Seeking a brand new trial.

His team says that rebecca hill, the clerk of court,

Influenced the jury.

What matters is, is what the jurors heard, what they

Perceived, and whether or not it had any sort of effect

On the verdict.

Was your verdict influenced, in any way,

By the communications of the clerk of court in this case?

Juror c: No, ma'am.

Juror f: Absolutely not.

Juror l: No, ma'am. Juror e: No.

Juror p: No.

Juror o: No, ma'am, it was not.

Juror y: No, ma'am.

Juror w: No, ma'am. Juror q: No, ma'am.

Juror k: No.

Juror z: Yes, ma'am.

She made it seem like he was already guilty.

I never talked to the jurors about any of the evidence.

Attorney: Could you answer with a yes or no?

Ms. Hill is not credible.

There was an extraneous contact with these jurors.

Juror: She said a guilty verdict would sell more books.

And did you tell her that you were going to write a book

To make a bunch of money so you could buy a lake walk

And build a house on it?

No, sir.

I find that the clerk of court is not completely

Credible as a witness.

Ms. Hill was attracted by the siren call of celebrity.

Did clerk of court hill's comments

Have any impact on the verdict of the jury?

I find that the answer to this question is no.

I simply do not believe that the authority of our south carolina

Supreme court requires a new trial

On the strength of some fleeting and foolish comments.

The defendant's motion for a new trial must be denied.

In March of 2023, a jury of 12 found alex murdaugh, heir

To a powerful legal dynasty, guilty in the murders

Of his wife, maggie, and youngest son, paul.

Now nearly a year later, those same jurors

Were brought back to court.

And once again, they came face to face with murdaugh.

This time, it was in his bid for a whole new trial.

He alleged that the clerk of court, becky hill,

Had swayed the verdict in order to boost her book sales,

An allegation that she denied.

Retired former chief justice jean toal

Said that hill was blinded by, quote, "the siren

Call of celebrity," and that she had made

Fleeting and foolish comments.

But she found, in the end, they did

Not impact the jury's decision.

I sat down with two of those jurors who are now

Speaking out for the first time following

Murdaugh's failed bid.

We discussed the storm of the new controversy.

First of all, thank you all for sitting down with us today.

I know you may or may not want to relive this.

When you think back to being called to serve on this case--

Amie, let me start with you--

Is there anything that you would tell yourself if you could look

Back on this experience when you got that juror notice

That we're all familiar with getting in the mail,

What would you say to yourself at that point now?

I will have to find some excuse to why I should

Not be on, should not serve.

You would not have served?

A part of me, thinking back now, no, I wouldn't want

It to-- want it to have.

Why?

It was hard.

It was long.

And then afterwards, the chaos afterwards was the worst part.

How has that chaos affected your life?

You know, I just kept my faith and believing that the truth

Would always come forth.

And that, you know, I believe that we did,

We made the right decision.

So I just kept the faith with that

And just believed that everything would

Turn out the way it should.

What about you, gwen?

I wouldn't do anything different.

I wouldn't say I enjoy it, but it was a privilege to serve.

I felt that being on there, I could--

I helped made a decision that I thought was the right decision.

So it was good for me to serve.

How aware were you of the murdaugh murders when you got

That notification to appear?

I don't know the murdaughs at all.

As a matter of fact, when I got my notice,

I put it to the side.

And then I remembered like a week--

Three days before, that Friday, I had took it down there.

I carried it in.

What about you, amie?

Did you-- had you heard about it?

Read about the murders?

Yes, I knew all about it, heard all about it,

And I knew of him, you know.

But he doesn't live-- they didn't live that far from me.

And at first when I saw it, I didn't realize what it was.

But as I was reading the questions and I saw the date,

Then I realized, oh my gosh, I think

This is the murdaugh case.

Yes.

Once you got on the jury and you're chosen

And you know that you're sort of in for the duration,

What do you remember first about your interaction

With becky hill?

I guess the swearing in.

I think she swore us in if I'm not mistaken.

This was her first big trial as the clerk?

Sure.

Yeah.

So it was a big moment for her?

Yeah.

No, no question.

She definitely saw it as an opportunity to, you know,

Get a public name for herself.

There's no question.

What was your overall impression of her

During this process?

I felt like she was very accommodating.

She made sure we had everything that we needed.

If there was an issue, she took care of it

Because we all-- if there was any questions

We asked the bailiff.

And the bailiff would call her.

And she would only come down as far as I know when there was

An issue that she needed to address

If somebody needed something.

And I asked one day, could we have cheese--

What's the breakfast thing I wanted?

The cheese-- I asked for something and the next morning

It was there.

It was there.

Fruit, anything we asked for, she made sure we had it.

That's-- I just felt like she was very accommodating.

She was trying to do whatever she could to make it

A little easier for you, guys.

Yeah.

So when she spoke to you about preparing for the case and that

The defense--

The defense was about to come out

And that there was a possibility that it looked like alex

Murdaugh who you had been hearing about this case all

Through the prosecution side was going to take the stand

On his own behalf, what do you remember

About learning that you were going to hear from alex, amie?

I think I remember her saying that maybe he would be

Testifying, but that's pretty much

All I remember about it because I remember

Her saying that they were thinking

Of maybe extending the trial.

It might have to go a few more days,

And that flipped me completely out.

I just was exhausted and just could not go any further.

And that was the extent of it for me.

I didn't hear anything else.

Do you remember her ever discussing the murdaugh family,

What she thought of them?

No.

Never.

That wasn't true.

Well, I didn't hear it.

Yeah.

Did any other jurors say to you, oh well, she

Was talking to us about what she thinks about the case

Or about murdaugh?

No.

No.

Nope.

So months after the verdict, becky hill publishes a book

About the whole experience.

And what did you think about it?

I thought it was kind of strange that a clerk of court

Was writing a book, but I was like, it must

Be ok because she wrote it.

I did plagiarize, mr. Harpootlian.

Dick hartpootlian: That's stealing, isn't it?

It is. Dick hartpootlian: Ok.

And for that, I'm very sorry.

And I have apologized.

And a lot of things started coming up.

This charge of plagiarism in her book,

Then we're going to talk a little bit about the hearing

That you all were just part of.

But during that, even the judge, we all

Know what the judge's decision was, but said she thought there

Was some strange behavior.

Finally, you have indicated about your book

That some things that you put in there were, you called it,

Literary license, not literally true, correct?

Correct.

When you heard about that, that she had lifted pieces

From another writer and put it in her book,

Did that seem dishonest to you, gwen?

Yes, I couldn't believe it.

I was shocked.

Yeah, just the type of person I thought she was, you know,

Just the time like I said just looking at her,

It's like she said she can look at people,

I'm kind of like that, you know, you just kind

Of look at people and stuff.

And I was like, I didn't know that.

And I even had to go and kind of like

Read a little farther to see exactly what she had done,

You know, as far as the plagiarism

Because I didn't understand it and I kept looking.

And I was like, well, how did she get information?

So did you-- you read the book?

No.

I didn't even know she had written a book until later

But I'm saying the plagiarism part,

I was trying to figure out how she got hold of it.

Amie williams: Right.

Yeah.

And did you read the book, amie?

Pieces of it, not the whole thing.

Martha maccallum: What was your impression.

Did it feel like the experience that you were part of or did

It feel--

No?

In what way no?

Well, she was writing from her experience.

So I mean, she wasn't in the jury room with us.

So it didn't speak to our experience or my experience

At all.

Martha maccallum: So when you went back to court last month

What was it like when you went in

And you saw alex murdaugh again, amie?

I just wanted to make sure that he knew

That my verdict was based on the evidence and witness testimony.

I tried-- I tried to make sure I looked at him when I answered

The question but I also wanted to make sure

I was looking at, you know, the judge

But I wanted him to know that, yes,

My verdict is still the same.

What about you, gwen?

What was it like when you first went back to the courtroom

This time around and you saw alex murdaugh sitting there?

I looked over there at him.

I didn't pay him a lot of attention.

I directed my attention towards judge toal.

You know, I want to make sure that I understand everything

She was saying and that she understood everything

That I was saying to her.

I did go back later and I did look at the court tv

That they had in there that day and he was the same.

And I just wanted to see that.

I want to see those eyes change up, his demeanor changes.

And like I say, the way he looks or just the way he fiddles

With his glasses sometime or he does different things

He might even whisper to them.

He just changes and I just wanted to see if he

Was the same-- the same way.

And he was.

You know, they own their verdicts,

Which is a nice thing to see that they were able to say this

Was my verdict and looked at alex, which is not

An easy thing to do, and say I found you guilty of killing

Your wife and your son.

You each talked about what you saw sort of as the turning

Point in your understanding of the case

And of whether or not alex was guilty.

And part of it was hearing his voice

On the recording at the kennel.

Tell me about that moment during the trial for you,

Amie, and what impact it did have on you.

Well, when I heard his voice, you know,

I just thought, oh my god, he was there

Because the whole time he was saying he wasn't there

But he was actually there.

And I was like, oh my god.

And then things just kind of progressed from there.

I mean, the evidence was already coming together.

I feel that the prosecution did a good job proving

That it was family weapons that were used

And certain other things.

But that was a pivotal moment.

And when everyone else in his family and colleagues

Identified 100% that that was his voice, it was big.

And what voices did you hear?

Paul's, ms. Maggie, ms. Stella.

And how sure are you now?

Positive.

100%.

I'm 100% sure.

I'm 100% sure.

So for you, the timeline meant that it had to be him,

That he had the opportunity.

Yes.

Martha maccallum: What about for you, gwen?

What was the turning point for you?

It was the recording.

I felt the same way.

I sit there and I listen to all the evidence and stuff,

And that was towards the end.

And with paul's phone, and then when they were

Able to get into it and get it.

And I just kind of thought that maybe he kind of thought they

Would never get into the phone.

But when they got into the phone and I heard his voice,

I was like, ok, he did it.

You know, there's no way-- no other way to put it.

I just felt that that was the moment I got my answer.

And what did you think of his answer

When he was asked about that on the stand, amie?

I mean, the first thing he said

Was when he was asked why did he lie,

He said, oh, what a tangled web we weave.

You continue lying after that night, did you not?

Once I lied, I continued to lie.

Yes, sir.

Why?

You know, oh what a tangled web we weave.

I was thinking, that's the best you can do?

You're on trial for your life.

Let me ask you something based on another interview

That I did with buster murdaugh.

You were there when he testified and answered questions.

He believes that his father is innocent in the killing

Of his mother and his brother.

What do you think about that, amie?

Well, I mean, of course, it's his father.

That's what he believes and no one

Can take that away from him.

And I can't really say anything about it

Because that was his father.

He probably doesn't even want to believe that he would kill

His mother and his brother.

What did you think about buster,

His testimony when you watched him up there?

Buster just kind of answered the questions

That were given to him.

I just say, I just don't think--

I don't think buster actually believes

His father didn't do it.

I'm just thinking deep down inside

But he only has his father left and he

Wants to hold on to that.

Martha maccallum: So then when you heard there was a big news

Conference, dick harpootlian and jim griffin came out,

And they said that they were accusing becky hill

Of violating murdaugh's constitutional right

To a fair and impartial jury.

And that the clerk of court had tampered with the jury,

Advising them not to believe murdaugh's testimony

And other evidence that was presented by the defense

And pressuring them to reach a quick guilty verdict.

What was your reaction when you heard him say that?

Absurd.

It was insane.

I couldn't believe it.

And I just couldn't believe it.

I was like, it's so insulting to think that we didn't have

The god-given common sense that he gave us an intelligence

To make a decision based on the evidence

And the witness testimony that we had given an oath to do.

And that's what we did.

That's what I did.

You know, martha, he from the podium said to the jurors,

I'm going to get your text messages,

Your emails, and your telephone records,

Almost accusing the jurors.

That's how I got involved because I was representing

Victims and when I heard, you're going after jurors,

They need to lawyer up.

And so that's how I got contacted to represent

Five of the jurors.

It's just-- it was so over the top.

You know, they came out like a lion

Making all these accusations, saying

The jurors were pressured to reach a quick verdict.

You know, these are jurors.

They come with their common sense, their life experiences,

And their education.

They have 24 years, 24 sets of eyes,

And they can assess truth or false.

And that's what these jurors did.

And to insinuate that they didn't vote based

On their conscience but they could be so malleable that one

Or two comments that were allegedly made,

They would vote somebody to be guilty of killing their wife

And their son and do the rest of their life

In prison, that is offensive.

- Very offensive. - Very.

Very, very.

Yes.

Tell me-- yeah, you're shaking your head.

I was livid because it shouldn't be amazing

But it's still amazing how people

Will believe a lie quicker than they will the truth.

And no one had no idea what was going on during this trial.

When you sit on a jury, especially for 6 weeks,

Then you can maybe speak to what might have happened.

But there were a lot of things going on

Personally in our lives and then we

Had to come in there every day.

We were locked in a room when we weren't in the courtroom.

I mean, so it was a weight on us,

We had to make sure it was right.

And also, there was always a question about,

Oh they never had notebooks, they never took notes.

We were not allowed to take notebooks out,

But we had them in the back.

So as soon as we ran back, if there was something I had

A question on or anyone else who had a notebook,

We wrote it down.

And every time it was answered, we would mark through it

Or-- and that's how-- that's how we kept, you know,

Kept up with everything in evidence and everything.

Did you keep those notebooks?

Yes.

You know, I didn't keep notes.

I kept mental notes.

I'm real good, you know, I just kept mental notes.

I made sure I paid attention.

I want to make sure I was there from the beginning to the end.

And I was there.

Sitting there listening to all the evidence.

I consider myself to be an intelligent woman

And, you know, I'm able to make my own decisions.

I'm not easily persuaded.

And I'm not--

I'm not a follower.

So you know, I'm going to get the evidence, weigh it out,

You know.

I know, ok, this is not true.

This is, you know, this is true or whatever.

Yeah, and I felt very offended by it.

But you know, even--

Not even with that with them, even

With just some of the people, just in general, you know,

I guess because we're from a small

What do you call this country bumpkins, like country hicks.

- Yeah. - What they would think.

Yeah.

What is it, a smart country bumpkins in walterboro.

Yeah. And I think--

You get the wall street journal in walterboro, yes?

Yes.

Did it give you confidence in the system,

The judicial system going through this process or not?

I didn't have a problem with the judicial system.

You know, not a judicial system just--

It's just funny how things change.

You know, people change.

I was just surprised that it would come up to--

I didn't know it would get this far, you know.

I thought we would render the verdict and that would be--

It was over.

--That would be that.

And when all this came, I couldn't believe it.

I was like, oh--

So shocked.

You know, the jury system is so important to our country.

We fought the revolutionary war over it,

And we won to have impartial jurors and a fair system.

And I'm afraid that this whole process has

Turned people off from serving on a jury,

Exactly what amie said.

You know, you asked her first question, looking back on it,

Would you have wanted to do this?

And she said not sure.

And you know, when jurors are attacked by a party lawyer

And saying that you yourselves have to get a lawyer,

I think the system's breaking a little bit, getting stretched.

Well, he said that I couldn't believe it.

I had-- my friends were texting me left and right.

Oh, my god, he said you--

Have so you know, people were thinking that we

Had done something wrong.

And we didn't.

We didn't do anything wrong.

And justice toal was clear about that to every juror

When she-- she was very clear. - Been very clear.

I love that.

--That this has nothing to do with you, jurors.

You have done absolutely nothing wrong.

None of you, not any of you.

You didn't ask to serve, but you served and did your duty.

I love the way that she handled everything,

The way she handled us, she was very good, very wise.

Martha maccallum: So did anyone ever indicate to you, becky

Or anybody else, to watch him very closely,

Watch him really closely when he gets up there?

Amie williams: No. Gwen generette: No.

I didn't hear that part.

She never--

Amie williams: The jurors didn't really

Talk you know like people might have thought we did--

Gwen generette: We didn't do a lot of talking like that.

Amie williams: All we could talk about was our families,

Our children, our jobs.

So we got to know each other really well

And we became pretty close.

Martha maccallum: But you didn't discuss the case at all?

What about when you went out to moselle, to the property?

Becky wrote in her book about sort of knowing glances

Between people when they looked at the distances and the feed

Room, and down at the kennel that there was

Some acknowledgment in between people

Looking at the scene, amie?

And what was-- tell me, do you remember that at all?

Amie williams: No, I have no idea

What she was talking about.

I stayed with the judge.

I looked around.

I stayed with judge newman, I followed him and his clerk.

We walked with him down to the house and back to the swamp.

And I don't ever remember becky being close to any jurors.

I don't-- because he explicitly said no talking

And only ask him questions.

And that's what we did.

What about you, gwen?

What do you remember about that?

I had problems with my knees so I recall,

And they brought me up there in the van,

And they walked down towards the house.

And I stayed kind of back.

So I'm thinking ms. Becky was up towards the house so I never--

I was never near her when we went to moselle.

And I kind of stayed around towards the room.

And I started up there but I never really--

I don't think I actually made it up to the house--

Martha maccallum: Did you--

Gwen generette: --To around.

What did you draw from that visit?

Was that a pivotal moment for you?

That kind of added on to the recording, yes.

Don't forget, martha, that we have

Two gunmen supposedly coming on the property without guns.

So two hitmen are going to come to a rural property

Without guns and they're going to break

Into a house to get your guns to shoot your wife and son.

And you know, I'm from philadelphia,

You're from up north, you go onto a southern property,

A southern farm in the middle of the night,

You're going to take your life in your own hands.

So I don't know too many hitmen who go to a property

Without weapons.

Martha maccallum: So the statements that were attributed

To becky hill, watch him closely,

This is going to be an epic day, look at his actions,

Look at his movements--

Eric bland: Don't believe the defense was another one.

What did ms. Hill say?

To watch his actions, to watch him closely.

Eric bland: She made a comment about watch his body language.

Did you feel pressured to reach a verdict quickly?

I didn't know.

No.

No.

Not by becky hill?

No.

She made it clear--

She said that the judge--

Judge newman stated that we had until 10 o'clock

To make a verdict.

That was the time that we were given.

But if we didn't, it was fine.

She found a hotel.

We would have to be sequestered which made sense.

We were in deliberations.

We didn't know we would be deliberating that day

But it made sense.

And I'm sure she would have made arrangements

For us to get whatever we needed, you know,

Personal items for that.

But there was no pressure whatsoever.

And the forelady, I mean, she even told us

When we were in there alone and the door was locked,

She told us we don't have to do this tonight.

If you're too tired, you don't have to do this tonight.

We don't have to do it.

And even after we came to our verdict,

She said, if you don't feel comfortable with your decision,

We don't have to go out there.

We can stay here or we can come back in the morning

Until you are comfortable.

I don't know how many times she said that.

I don't see how anyone felt pressured.

We kept going over the information, all the evidence.

We kept going.

We watched videos.

We answered questions because I know

It was a couple of questions about the guns

And trying to kind of explaining that and some of the guys,

You know, they're into the crime shows and stuff

They were able to explain it.

But I didn't feel any pressure at all.

None.

And I was surprised we weren't sequestered from the beginning

So we were lucky, you know.

We were able to go home.

And far as the smoke break, they got

Your smoke breaks and stuff.

And I guess it was kind of last minute.

It wasn't, you know, go deliberate.

It wasn't becky's decision.

But I guess she knew that we couldn't

Go out once it started.

They knew that.

- That was common sense. - Yeah.

We were in deliberations.

Common sense, yeah.

They were rolling the evidence in.

You can't go out.

So that made sense to you?

It made perfect sense.

You can't smoke until--

It wasn't like--

--Done deliberating for the day.

Right.

It wasn't like she attacked the smokers.

They got their breaks a lot but so you know, I don't smoke.

They got their breaks a lot but it was kind of last minute.

I was like, oh they're finished.

And it was kind of deliberate so of course you can't go out.

And another thing I wanted to say as far as with ms. Becky,

She didn't interact with us a lot

Because mr. Bill was the one that we

Interact with all the time.

If you had a question--

Eric bland: The bailiff. - Bailiff.

The bailiff.

If you had a question, you had to go through mr. Bill

To ms. Becky.

During the trial, did becky hill

Either drive or ride with you in a vehicle

Before or after court?

No, ma'am.

All right.

Did you ever hear that she and bill drove a juror home from--

I was surprised to hear that.

I was surprised.

And the juror, we asked her and she said no.

I was surprised.

I was like, where did you get a ride with her?

I was surprised.

That was the first time I've heard that.

She did have car problems but most times,

It was someone when the jurors would take her,

Either someone would pick her up.

You know, but I was just surprised

To know that ms. Becky--

That was a testimony that was contradicted

By the barnwell clerk of court that

Came in and said that, you know, she had

Addressed that with ms. Becky.

And I mentioned to ms. Becky.

I said, please tell me you didn't

Take a juror home last night.

And she told me she says, I did but I

Didn't talk about the case.

I had a bailiff with--

Mr. Bill was with me.

I said, becky, you don't do things like that.

And becky testified that never happened so that was one

Of the conflicting things that justice toal said

I questioned your credibility.

You write that you and he took a juror home one night?

Did you tell her that?

Did you take a juror home one night?

I didn't take a juror home one night.

No, sir.

Mr. Polk and you take a juror home one night?

No, sir, we didn't.

So you never gave a juror a ride in a car with mr. Polk

Or without?

No, sir.

Do you think she should lose her position?

I do.

I think, you know, they're called

The honorable for a reason.

Honorable becky hill as the clerk of court.

I think that you have to have the trust

And confidence of those that you serve in walterboro.

And the fact that our former chief justice who is a highly

Accomplished jurist said that I find you not credible

Is bad for our justice system.

And I would hope that the governor acts on that.

And we need judges, we need court personnel, everybody that

Is going to be above reproach.

So what did you think when you heard juror z get up there

And had an exchange with judge toal,

And judge toal did all of the questioning which

Was interesting, and she said, did you ever

Hear ms. Hill make any comment about the case

Before the verdict?

Juror z: Yes, ma'am.

If yes, what did ms. Hill say?

Juror z: To watch his actions.

Jean toal: To watch his actions?

What else?

Juror z: To watch him closely.

Jean toal: To watch him closely.

Anything else you remember?

Juror z: There is, but I can't remember.

Ok, that's fine.

Was your verdict influenced in any way

By the communications of the clerk of court in this case?

Juror z: Yes, ma'am.

Jean toal: And how was it influenced?

Juror z: To me, it felt like--

She made it seem like he was already guilty.

Did that affect your finding of guilty in this case?

Juror z: Yes, ma'am.

Jean toal: All right.

Did you read about that exchange

Or hear about it after?

Afterwards, I looked at it.

I mean, I watched it but I can't speak to her state of mind

Or what she felt she might have heard.

I can't speak to that.

I just know that I didn't hear any of the things

That she said was said.

And I kind of felt like she seemed a little

Nervous, a little afraid maybe.

I'm not sure.

But because she took a long time to answer.

And so I can't speak to why or her state of mind.

I just know what I heard.

Gwen, were you surprised knowing this juror

From the deliberations?

I was kind of surprised because I sit by her every day.

So I was kind of surprised.

And even in the deliberations in the back

There, she didn't express that she had a problem with it.

She looked at the evidence that we looked at,

And she didn't express that she had a problem, that she might

Felt swayed to go another way because she could

Have voiced it back there.

And she didn't.

The ones that kind of had an idea,

We kind of knew, but she wasn't one of those, you know.

And I was just surprised.

I felt she was persuaded by the defense.

You know, martha, in her first affidavit that was given

To the court, she said it was-- her

Verdict was the based on juror pressure inside the jury room.

Juror pressure under the law is not a basis

To overturn a verdict because jurors, always,

There's a give and take in the jury room.

If there's two people that say he's not guilty

And 10 people that say he's guilty,

You're going to feel the pressure

When 10 people would say, look at this, look at that.

She just said that there was juror pressure.

If you say it was juror pressure, but then she changed,

I was very surprised at her.

The other thing that was said when they said that they were

Going to try to overturn the case

Was that there was a misrepresentation

Of critical material information to the trial,

To the trial judge by becky hill and that she had a campaign

To remove a juror that she believed

Was favorable to the defense.

So that she wanted a guilty verdict, that she surmised

That one of these jurors was leaning a little bit more

Towards a not guilty verdict, what

Was your understanding of this juror who was removed and why,

Gwen?

They referred to her as the "egg lady."

The egg lady.

Yeah, the egg lady.

Have you brought everything that you have outside of--

You left some stuff in there?

What do you have in there?

Dozen eggs--

Say it again?

A dozen eggs.

A dozen eggs?

Well, her and the other lady, they rode together every day.

I thought it was strange they rode together.

And the egg lady had to be reminded almost

Constantly about discussing things either on the bus,

On the van in the morning, or back in the back.

She had to be constantly reminded that

She cannot discuss the trial.

So--

And who was reminding her of that?

Gwen generette: The forelady on the van in the morning

Or the forelady, or just might someone else just might say

Something to her about it, just make a gesture,

You know, shh, you can't talk about that or whatever.

Was there any indication to you

That she was leaning towards a not guilty verdict?

Maybe a little bit when I think about it now

Because she was so vocal and she was always

Wanting to talk and stuff.

Yeah.

Martha maccallum: What do you remember about the egg lady,

Amie?

Well, she wasn't in the room I was in so I didn't hear her.

And we didn't end up on the same van all the time.

So I wasn't really sure.

Sometimes when I was on the van, I heard her say--

I did hear her say some things sometimes

But I was not really sure what she was going to vote,

But she was, she was a little vocal and made you think maybe.

But you weren't really sure what it would be.

And I was trying to focus on the evidence because it was a lot.

And you had to stay focused on what was presented to us.

So there were-- all of these things about the facebook post

And whether or not becky hill may

Have fabricated a facebook post and brought it to the judge.

There were confusions over the date of when it was posted,

Whether or not it really could have come from her.

What is your take, eric, on the reasoning for her removal

And whether or not it was fair?

I can't judge whether it was fair because I wasn't

Back in the chambers with judge newman

When he made that decision.

But he made the decision not because of the facebook post

But because she was talking about the case

With others outside the jury room in the courthouse.

And that was an express instruction of judge newman

Not to talk about the case to family

Members or third parties.

And she admitted that she had done that.

So his reasoning that he gave for removing her

From the jury, martha, was because of her discussions

Outside the courthouse.

Let me ask you both about what you think the motive was.

And do you think that he had been planning it for some time,

Or that it was an impulsive move that night?

Gwen.

I have different thoughts on it.

I think it was appeals.

I think it was appeals.

And then I think maybe maggie expected certain things

From him and he wasn't going to be there

To produce them in the end.

So he had to get rid of them.

And then paul, paul was going to have him bankrupt.

So you know, with the case coming up and all of that,

He wasn't going to have any money

Anyway either way it went.

But I think the biggest part was the drugs.

There were a lot of things going on.

I mean, he needed money.

He needed to make sure that the murdaugh name that's very,

Very, very important to him more than anything else,

And he needed to make sure that that

Was always held in high regard.

And now all these things were coming

About with, the boat case and paul

Maybe going to trial for it.

And then all the things that he had done,

And whatever else may have been going on.

I just think it was a perfect storm.

Yeah, he had been uncovered that he stole

My client's money, the satterfield money, a month

And a half before.

That $4.3 million was missing.

He was also, on the morning of the murders,

He was confronted by jeannie seckinger,

The cfo of the law firm that there was money

Missing from the law firm.

Mark tinsley, who represented the mallory beach,

Was having a hearing three days later to get

All his financial information.

So as amie said, there was the perfect storm.

How many times did you all pull

Yourselves to get that guilty verdict

In those three hours twice?

Because that's why I couldn't--

The first time, foreperson just

Wanted to see where we were.

We had no idea who voted, what we-- wrote

It down on a piece of paper.

And she just went through and looked at the paper

And she really wasn't going to tell us

What the number was but one juror did want to know

So she told us it was nine.

Nine guilty, two not guilty, one, not sure.

So from there, we went to asking questions.

So nobody knew who voted what.

Nobody had a clue.

We didn't have a clue.

And we just went from there, asking questions,

Anybody had a question.

Then that person-- the next person,

Somebody would answer that question.

They would go get-- because you know,

Some of the evidence, the jury room wasn't big enough.

They had to roll the evidence into the other room.

And so some of the guys would go and get

The evidence out of that room.

One guy worked a video.

We would go back and watch certain clips.

We looked at certain pictures.

And so when all the questions were answered

And nobody else had a question, then we voted again.

We vote again.

Yeah.

And when we vote it again, it was guilty.

Yeah, and you could kind of-- martha maccallum: Unanimous?

It was unanimous.

Guilty.

Yeah.

But she still made it clear.

If you're not sure, we will not leave this room.

But everybody said we're sure.

Sounds like you guys were very organized jurors, all of you.

Gwen generette: Yeah.

Great bunch of people.

Gwen generette: Yeah.

I loved each and every one of them.

They are a great bunch of people.

Are either of you writing a book?

Yes.

Martha maccallum: Yes?

Tell me, tell me why.

Why do you want to write a book?

I got a lot of questions after returning to work

And you know, I thought maybe I should just tell my experience

As to what you go through as a juror and the oath

That you have to keep.

And it's kind of like an evidentiary book,

Really, where we just talk about what I saw with the evidence

And it's just based on my experience.

It doesn't include the other jurors or anything.

It's just that.

So we're still in the stages of writing that

And I just felt like people wanted to know because I kept

Getting all these questions.

Well, you know, part of what harpootlian and griffin have

Said is that becky wanted to make money off of a book

And that she needed a guilty verdict

In order to have a better book.

What do you say about people who might

Criticize any effort to make money off of this trial?

Well, if you're doing--

If you're doing it just to make money

And you're doing things maliciously,

Then it's not right.

As for me, you know, I'm just trying to answer the questions

That are being asked.

And a lot of people keep asking questions, how was it?

Or how-- you know, so I was like I'm going to--

I'm going to write it down.

Martha maccallum: That's your right.

Any financial gain from this whole story, eric?

How do you respond to that?

Everybody's benefited from it.

This was the most important case in our state's history.

So naturally, it's going to take on a cottage industry.

I don't begrudge anybody for it.

I do agree with amie.

If you're doing it solely for the money

And slanting the way you write it to make it sensational,

Like becky said, that I was disappointed when becky said,

Well, I took poetic license in my testimony

And said that this person may have been a criminal

Or this person may have done that.

No, you don't write a book that's nonfiction

And take poetic license.

That's called lying.

So gwen, do you think this is over now?

Knowing the steps, no.

Eric bland: That's it, and then you heard harpootlian say,

Well, if we lose on the state level,

We'll go to the federal level.

So for these jurors, it is over, martha.

They're not going to be asked to do anything again.

But somewhere down the road, you know, if a new trial is

Granted, there's going to have to be, you know,

12-plus alternates sitting in the box,

Going through this again.

Martha maccallum: Eric, thank you.

Eric and gwen and amie, I appreciate your time today.

All of you.

A pleasure to meet you and thank you for speaking with me.

I appreciate it a lot.

Becky hill remains under the cloud

Of two active criminal investigations

Relating to the trial and to her actions with the jury.

She is not currently charged with any crime

And has not been disciplined for engaging

In any professional misconduct.

Thanks for watching.

I'm martha maccallum.

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