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[interviewer] Now,
what would you consider to be

the most difficult aspect
of your career?

The most difficult aspect is

controlling myself
around the ladies, man.

I just be ridiculous
because I love them so much.

I be like, yo. [laughs]

Having fun,
seeing all the girls,

basically.
[laughs] You know?

[Chris] It was great to come
out and show the world

how to be a gentleman
and try to have fun.

He's not going to do anything
like this in the future.

If you're not my fan,
then don't listen to my music.

I'm not asking you to.

[paparazzo]
When is your hearing

for your restraining order?

We have a woman
that called for help

around three o'clock
this morning.

[announcer] The winner
of the four BET Awards,

Mr. Chris Brown.

[woman] How do you feel?
Do you feel like a man?

No, I have not spoken
about this matter publicly.

[Clarence] We had Hit Mission
Music Production.

Our mission is to write hits,
just not songs, but hit songs.

My name is Clarence Jenkins,

and I am a retired
schoolteacher and military,

and I'm an executive producer
of Hit Music music company.

This particular plaque
right here

is for the project
that went double platinum.

That's the first album,
entitled Chris Brown.

In 2002, 2003,

we were actually looking
for talent.

So a rapper
brought my partner a CD.

He was like, you know,
"Hey, Lamont. I got this CD."

He was like, "I'd like for you
to check me out."

[Clarence] I listened to it.

It was okay, but nothing
that kind of spinned my wheels

to make me say,
"I want to invest money
and time into it."

But we heard a voice
in the background.

The way I heard his vibrato

and the way
the song was coming off,

like he's very mature.

He reminded me
of Michael Jackson.

I said, "Huh. Who is that?"

Ever since I was two,
I always was dancing

and performing, always.

But, like,
I guess I would have to say

I was around 11 or 12 when
I found out I could sing.

Chris Brown was young
when he was discovered.

He was 14. Good-looking.

He could dance,
he could sing.

We produced
the first music video

and the record.

I would put my own
talent shows together.

Chris Brown spoke.

I remember
I wasn't initiating.

But I was going to
the same thing with Lamont.

"Sing, boy, sing!
Get him to sing..."

That was the early Chris,
the innocent Chris,

the beginning of his career.

So we submitted this demo
to the record label.

And the rest is history.

[radio host]
Chris Brown is the name.
Get used to that right there.

[Michelle] I remember
when he first came out,

I was like,
"Who is this little kid?"

[Scaachi] He's a baby.

He's got such a baby face.

They don't have
like regular chairs.

They have couches.

You get to relax
and lean back.

The story around Chris Brown
very much was that

he was going to be
the next Michael Jackson.

[Michelle] I saw him
in the film This Christmas.

He had such charisma.
Like, he draws you in.

About 15 years ago,

I was working for BET News.

I'd go on 106 & Park

and I would
cover the music industry,

big stories
that would happen.

At 15 years old,

the rest of us are
hanging out in the mall.

Chris Brown
is signing record deals

and he is making records,

and Run It! was released.

It went to number one.

He was actually
the first male artist

to have a debut
single reach number one

on the Billboard charts
for 10 years.

Oh, it's great. It's great.
I'm having fun.

Everything we're doing,
just having fun.

For a couple of years,
his music was everywhere.

In 2007, Wrigley's actually

signed a deal with Chris Brown
for Doublemint gum.

They actually paid for him
to go in the studio

and create a full-length song
from that jingle,

which was Forever.

♪♪ One, two, three, four! ♪

[Scaachi] It went viral.

After this wedding procession,

he was dancing down the aisle
to this Chris Brown song.

And then The Office
ended up using this dance

in one of their episodes
when Jim and Pam get married.

So he had really cornered
this very particular piece

of pop culture ubiquity
just from one song.

You've got stars and then
you've got superstars.

What Chris had was the talent

and the presence
and the work ethic

and the confidence
to be an absolute superstar.

One more. One more.
She wasn't in.

He spoke to female audiences.

[man] That's the type of stuff
that will get you
into trouble, player!

For the young ladies,

I mean, what's up, man?
You got a girl or what?

Nah, I'm keeping
my options open.

So y'all be checking for me.

You know what I'm saying?

[host] Rihanna, ladies
and gentlemen. Thank you.

Yes, ma'am? Go right ahead.

[woman] It seems like
you just came from nowhere.

Everything
is a big deal for me

because I was just
a normal girl
growing up in Barbados,

doing normal things.

And, now, there's just
so many things happening.

[Michelle] Robyn Fenty,
also known as Rihanna,

she's from Barbados,

makes it big
in the United States

and around the world.

[Sharon] She went from
being the girl next door

with "Pon de Replay"
and "SOS,"

and then came out
with this new edgy Rihanna.

And people really loved it.

And she was
pushing the boundaries.

In 2005,
Rihanna and Chris Brown

were actually
photographed backstage

at the Z100 Jingle Ball.

They both were kind of like
exploding onto this scene

and making
these really fun songs

that people could dance to
and vibe with.

[Sharon] So these two young
stars struck up a friendship,

and they really hit it off.

We're not sure when that
friendship became romantic,

because for the longest time,

they were trying to
convince us all,

"No, we're just platonic.
No, we're just friends."

But one really, really big
and special moment for them

was at the MTV Awards 2007.

They were 18, 19.

Chris Brown had
this amazing performance,

bounding from the stage
to different platforms,

and the audience is
just like, "Wow!"

[crowd cheering]

The curtain opens

and there's a silhouette
of this gorgeous woman

with legs for days.

And it's Rihanna.

And everyone
goes absolutely nuts.

You could feel the chemistry
between the two of them,

especially from Chris,

and we all wanted them
to be together.

And then eventually
we found out
that they were a couple.

Fans were
really excited to see

the pop prince
and princess together.

I was like,
"Yes, we love this.

This is going to be fun.

This is going to be great."

It's tough to still
play the game of, like,

"Oh, they were a power couple.

They were so beautiful.
They were so charming.

They were so well matched."

He still hit her in that car.

The Grammys, 2009,
was probably going to be

the biggest night
of their lives, actually.

They were 19 and 20,

Chris was up
for two Grammy Awards,

and he was going to
hit the stage.

Rihanna was up
for three Grammy Awards,

and she was going to
hit the stage

with Justin Timberlake.

And there were
photographs of Chris Brown

with Rihanna at a party
the night before.

They had left together
in Chris' rented Lamborghini.

I'm Cheryl Dorsey,
a 20-year veteran

of the Los Angeles
Police Department.

I didn't really know
about Chris

and Rihanna's
dating relationship.

I'm a different generation,

and so that wasn't anything
that I was really tracking.

Until around
12:40 in the morning.

There was a call to
dispatch 911 of an assault.

[dispatcher] 17.
Unit 17, come in.

[unit 17] All right, copy.
Rolling.

It was somebody
in the Hancock Park area

who had heard
a woman continuously

screaming for help.

[Cheryl] The incident report
states Chris and Rihanna

were driving in his little
Lamborghini around town,

Rihanna had seen
something on his phone

that made her think that
he was dealing
with another female.

And by his own admission,

when she confronted him
in the car,

he kind of got
a little annoyed with her.

So the nerve of her
to have the temerity

to talk to him
and ask him and question him

about whatever it is
that he's doing.

[Sharon] Chris tried
to shove her out of the car,

open the car door,
and get her out of the car.

She had her seatbelt on,
so that didn't work.

Then he punched her
in the eye.

He punched her
in the left eye.

He's driving, punching her
with his right fist

as he drives
with his left hand.

And this goes on for blocks.

And he kept punching her,

and her mouth
was filling up with blood.

Chris Brown had said to her,

"I'm gonna beat
the S-H-I-T out of you."

She tried to
call her assistant.

Her assistant
didn't answer the phone.

So she pretended that she had

and that she was
on the phone with her,

and she said, "Please
make sure the police are there

when I get home."

Likely, she was hoping

that this would
get Chris to calm down

and sort of
come to his senses.

But when she said that,
he said...

So he grabs her phone

to prevent her
from calling anybody else

to report what's going on
inside that vehicle.

[Sharon] He then
put her in a choke hold,

and it was so tight

that she began
to lose consciousness.

[Cheryl] She now starts
gouging at his eyes.

[Sharon] He bit her fingers.

And it's at that point
that she's able, probably,

to get enough air
to just start screaming

as loud as she can to
alert neighbors.

[Sharon] He pulled over,

and that's when Rihanna
sort of saw her chance.

She grabbed the keys.

She sat on the keys,

but acted like she'd
thrown them out the window.

He couldn't find the keys,
so he just left.

So the photos of Rihanna's
face after the assault

were released--
they were leaked by LAPD,

which they're
not supposed to do that.

Every woman
who has been the target

of any sort of violence,

she should have the right
to release the details

that she wants to release.

[Scaachi] The thing that was
most shocking about it

was how brutal it looked.

She had two large knots

on either side of
her forehead.

She had what looked
like a cut

under one of her eyes.

[Michelle] Her lip
was busted and bruised.

She sustained other injuries
to her face

as a result of her head
being smashed

repeatedly against the window.

[Sharon] The entire world
realized at that point that

there was a darker side
to Chris Brown.

There was a more sinister side
to Chris Brown.

Chris Brown said himself

he was public enemy
number one.

[Carolyn] I teach courses
on family violence.

When I unpack the
Chris Brown-Rihanna situation

and the domestic violence
in my class,

it's important that
we understand

that domestic violence
doesn't come from nowhere.

It doesn't just
happen out of anywhere.

And the question is really not
"What's wrong with you?"

but "What happened to you?"

[Sharon] Chris is
from a small, little town

called Tappahannock
in Virginia

with a population of
2,000 people.

He was very close
to his biological parents.

But things began
to change for Chris

when his parents split

and his mother got remarried
to his stepfather.

Even before what
happened with Rihanna,

Chris had done an interview

speaking about how
his mother dealt with abuse

at the hands
of his stepfather.

[interviewer] I want to talk
about your childhood.

[Chris] I don't want to
mention the person's name,

but like somebody
that hurt my mom.

From the age of like seven
all the way to like thirteen,

me seeing that and being,
you know what I'm saying,

like, visually abused by it.

Trauma.

But he's talking really
very candidly

about the trauma
that he experienced.

Chris says that
there were many times

that he saw his stepfather
beating on his mother.

[Sharon]
And it was so bad at times,
he would pee on himself

because he was too scared
to go down the hallway

to go to the bathroom.

Scared to get up. You know,

I was scared to get up
and see what was going on...

What struck me is what we call
intergenerational trauma.

Being exposed to domestic
violence early in life

can make it difficult for you
to have the skill set

to have healthy relationships
later in life.

[Sharon]
After he assaulted Rihanna,

originally, Chris was charged
with felony assault

and with
making criminal threats.

The cultural perception
of Chris Brown

just squished in an instant.

[growls]
Chris Brown makes me angry.

But there are
some people who feel

that they have to
protect him at all costs.

[Omarosa] I don't know
what was going on

in the dynamics
of that relationship,

but I will say this.
In this country,

you're innocent
until proven guilty.

[Sharon] Rihanna ended up
getting back with him

three weeks after the assault.

That's really not the choice
that I would have made

if I were her.

I think that he still needs
a lot of help

and she needs
to move on with her life.

They were actually
spotted in Miami,

spending time together
at Diddy's house.

Diddy is a rap mogul.

He owns a lot of companies.

Chris,
he has a history with Diddy.

[Sharon]
At around 12 years old,

Chris had the opportunity,
interestingly enough,

to audition for Diddy.

It didn't go so well.

Diddy didn't sign him.

Now, what's interesting
about this

is that when you listen
to Diddy's account,

he said that he invited
Chris and Rihanna

to come to his home

to have some time
to work through things.

One thing we didn't realize
at the time

was that Rihanna had seen
her mother be abused

at the hands of her dad.

[Rihanna] I couldn't
separate him as a husband,

of him as a father.

-Was he violent?
-Yes, he was.

[Carolyn] What I learned
from that interview,

he was a wonderful
father to Rihanna.

And that's what
I would want individuals

to understand
about domestic violence,

is that perpetrators aren't
terrible all of the time.

And so that is really

what makes it
hard for victims to leave,

because that's confusing.

[Sharon]
Chris put out a statement

saying that he was so sorry
for what he had done

and telling interviewers
and journalists

what had happened that night.

How do you react to that?

I don't-- like,
I just look at him like,

"Wow, like, I'm in shock."

Because, first of all, that's
not who I am as a person.

[Carolyn] When he
appeared on Larry King,

he's saying things,

"I don't really
recall what happened,"

or almost like he's describing
an out-of-body experience.

He's minimizing the abuse.

[Larry] Do you
remember doing it?

No.

So he does not
remember hitting Rihanna.

Is this what he's saying,
that he doesn't remember?

You don't remember doing it?

I don't-- I don't...

It's like...

It's crazy to me. Like,
I just-- I'm like, "Wow."

Being a 20-year attorney
who's probably been involved

in at least 150 cases
regarding domestic violence...

for a non-weapon
physical assault

on a domestic partner,

that was one of
the worst I've seen.

So, afterwards,
Chris goes to court.

And during
the sentencing phase,

Rihanna revealed that
this wasn't the first time

Chris had abused her.

She alleged that
one time in Europe,

Chris shoved her into a wall
during an argument.

And another time in Barbados,

the two of them got
in a fight,

and he smashed both passenger
windows of their car.

He ended up getting
five years' probation

and around six months
of community labor.

[Freddy] The reason why
you're on felony probation,

the court is
putting you on notice.

Do not [bleep] up.

[Sharon]
His career was impacted
and he lost sponsorship deals.

Wrigley's ended up completely
severing ties with him.

That's a lot of money
gone at that point.

Also, the dairy industry
had a Got Milk? campaign
with Chris Brown,

and they wanted him to
no longer be a part of that.

So that shows you
a lot of people

just didn't want
to support his music

at that point in time.

Before the assault,
his sophomore album,

it went four times platinum.

But in 2009, Chris released
his third studio album,

and it's largely considered
a bit of a flop, to be honest,

by Chris Brown standards.

With the other two
going multi-platinum,

this one barely went gold.

[Scaachi] But Chris Brown,
like any celebrity,

has that entire infrastructure
around them all the time.

There's not just their money,

but they make money
for a bunch of other people.

There's a host of executives
who are making even more money

off of them being there
and them working.

So they have
a vested interest.

They want to figure out a way

to bring this man back
into the fold.

When Michael Jackson died,

BET was doing
a memorial for him.

[Michelle] Of course,
we're all thinking

who's going to do
a Michael Jackson tribute?

A lot of his fans were like,
"He's our Michael Jackson."

So it did make sense
that BET would have him

come in to do a tribute.

But at the same time,

what signal is this sending
to, you know,

survivors and victims
of intimate partner violence?

Famous people
are always protected.

We've heard this before.

We know it exists.

We've been talking about it
since Tina Turner.

We've seen
Megan Thee Stallion limping

and bleeding in the street

after being
shot by Tory Lanez.

We see Rihanna's battered
and bruised face,

and we tend to believe
in this culture

that you get a pass.

[Scaachi] Chris Brown,
what I think is interesting

is that BET called him
to do this performance

after Michael Jackson died,

and then Chris is singing
"Man in the Mirror,"

and he's crying.

[singing, voice breaking]

Chris sort of takes this
as an opportunity

to pantomime
emotions in public.

He might be crying naturally,

but the reality is
that he's choosing a venue

and a situation to sing
and cry at and during

when he knows
people will watch it.

These are choices.

These are intentional.

[Keri on video]
I'm so glad that, you know,

people are
finally forgiving him

and finally, you know,
accepting him back

into our good graces.

He deserves a second chance.

Reminded me of R. Kelly
after all this stuff
had come out about him.

He goes and curry favor
with people.

[Dorsey] After he goes
off stage,

and then he comes back

after he's kind of
gathered himself, and says...

I just want to say one thing.

I let you all down before,
but I won't do it again.

I promise.

I call bullshit.

[Carpenter] And Rihanna,
I think she surprised
some people.

Come to find out Rihanna
is actually dating
Chris Brown again.

And a really interesting night
was the Grammy Awards 2013.

They sat front row together.

Some of the fans
were really excited

to see the pop prince
and princess
back together again.

It was almost like
they were trying to recreate

the night that was
supposed to happen
in 2009.

There was one problem, though.

Chris Brown was dating
another woman.

[Koul] Everyone knows
everything about Rihanna.

People know far less
about Karrueche Tran.

Karrueche is a great example

of what it would have
looked like if Rihanna
had not been famous.

[Carpenter] This was the year
after the Rihanna assault.

Karrueche was working
for Nordstrom at the time,

and she had dreams
of being a celebrity stylist.

Then one day she actually
had the opportunity
to style a celebrity,

Chris Brown.

And then, shortly after,
they started dating.

She was around 22 years old.

[reporters clamoring]

Now suddenly she's thrust
into the limelight,

and it's all eyes on her
and paparazzi following her.

I've never dated celebrities.

Maybe one day, we were going
to get married and have kids.

We talked about
starting a family, so...

She's so hopeful
that he'll mature.

He'll grow into the person
that you hope that he can be.

And that
you're willing to wait
and sacrifice yourself.

There was one problem, though.

At one point,
Chris was with Karrueche,

and then he started
dating Rihanna again.

And at one point
was dating them both
at the same time.

[reporter] There was a rumor
that you guys had broken up.

You guys are all cool, right?

[Carpenter] Karrueche said
in an interview

that there was one time
she was at home with Chris,

and he said he was going to
pop out to go to the store.

She turns on the television,

and he's courtside
with Rihanna.

Not long after,
Rihanna called it off,

and then Chris
went back to Karrueche.

She was somebody
who really stuck
by his side through a lot.

In 2013, he assaulted a man
outside the W Hotel.

Chris was taking a picture
with two women,

and this man
tried to jump in the photo.

And then Chris punched him
and broke his nose.

But Chris
violated his probation
in that situation,

and he spent about
two, three months in jail.

Because of that,
he checked himself

into a rehab facility
for anger management.

But Chris Brown ended up
getting kicked out.

Two weeks in,
Chris had had
a family session,

and Chris wanted to leave,
and his mother said,

"No, I'd like it
if you stay in rehab,
to stick with it."

Chris went outside,
according to a report,

picked up a rock
and threw the rock
at his mother's car window

and broke her window.

If you can treat your mother
like this,

I'm not surprised
that you treat
other people this way.

[Carpenter]
A probation officer

actually convinced the judge
to keep him on probation

and in rehab
for a little longer.

Chris was sent
to another rehab.

They did a series of tests,

and they found out that
Chris had bipolar disorder
and also PTSD.

Which I'm assuming

stemmed back to what happened
in his childhood.

[West] People are more
than their diagnosis.

And we can't use that
as an excuse

or justification for abuse.

You're still responsible
for what you do

in terms of
harming other people.

[Carpenter]
Chris and Karrueche dated
for about four years.

I know that
Karrueche and Chris

had discussed
having their own baby
at some point.

[Koul] But then, in 2015,
Chris and Karrueche broke up

because Chris got
another woman pregnant
and she had a baby.

He was very angry
about their breakup.

He was harassing her
over text.

[reporter] How was it
hanging out with Chris Brown?

How was it hanging out
with Chris Brown again?

[Carpenter]
According to a Billboard
investigative report,

every night he was checking
her social media,

allegedly,
to try to track down
where she was,

what she was doing,
who she was with.

There's a video,

and it shows
Chris and Karrueche
walking together.

[paparazzi clamoring]

Now the paparazzi are saying,

"Oh, are you guys
back together?"

And then I'm like, "Wait,
what's happening here?

Why is the friend
arguing with him?"

[Carpenter] And I realized,
"Hold on,

did Chris just
turn up at the club

and try to get in the car
without her approval?"

[Koul] Chris posted
this video on Instagram.

Guess what?
I wanted to [bleep].

If I love you, bitch,
ain't nobody gonna have you.

I'mma make you miserable.

I'mma chase that [bleep] out.

I'mma chase your ass around.

That kind of sentiment,

men say it all the time.
They think it's romantic.

It's not. It's creepy.

It's weird. It's scary.

[reporter]
When is your hearing
for your restraining order?

[Dorsey] In 2017,
she comes forward

and she tries to get
a domestic violence

restraining order.

One of the things
that she said
that Chris had done

was punched her,

had threatened her friends.

You know, anybody
who might come to her aid.

[Carpenter]
We found out about him
sending the text saying,

"I'm gonna beat
the S-H-I-T out of you."

It makes you think of Rihanna

because that's exactly
what he said to Rihanna
in the car that night.

[Koul] In the end,
Karrueche's restraining order
was granted.

For me, these are all signs
of patterns of abuse,
continued behavior.

His anger is not managed.

He's still out of control.

And if you cross him,
there's a price to pay.

[Sayegh] I looked at
most of his criminal history,

and he's got a 15-year history

of nearly
every year of his life

being involved in reported
violence of some sort.

After his relationship
with Rihanna,

Chris Brown breaks things
on Good Morning America.

And he also punched a man.

[Sayegh] That same year,
my client got rear-ended

and he starts flipping out.

"[bleep] you, bitch!
You know who the [bleep] I am?

You think
you got money, bitch?"

He gets into the vehicle
and takes off,

creating now the misdemeanor
hit and run.

[Koul]
He's accused of harassing
Karrueche Tran repeatedly.

He's been sued
by his own management
for assault.

[Carpenter] There was a report
that Chris' tour manager quit

because Chris had flown
into an angry rage

and threatened her.

I didn't know that Chris Brown
had allegedly beat up

so many people.

[Sayegh] When you look to
what he's done,

whether it's throwing a chair

or causing some
serious domestic violence
action against Rihanna,

all avoidable.

All avoidable.

[Carpenter]
But there's a long list
of various different women

who have accused Chris Brown
of assaulting them.

[police radio chatter]

In 2015, Chris was accused
of assaulting a woman.

-[man] Hey!
-[woman speaking]

[man speaking]

This woman found out

that Chris was doing
a music video shoot.

She was hanging out
at the club.

Then a member
of Chris' entourage

apparently approached her
and said,

"Hey, you want to come
and hang out with the group
that's with Chris Brown?"

She said, "Yes."

[man speaking]

[woman speaking]

She says two bodyguards
grabbed her

and then threw her
off the bus.

[woman crying]

[man] You seem pretty upset.

Are you sure you don't want me
to call a victim's advocate
to have 'em come talk to you?

[Koul] Chris was named
as a person of interest
in the alleged assault.

And in response,
he posts on social media,

and then his fans
immediately jumped on it

to discredit the accuser.

-[fan 1] Get a job.
-[fan 2] Can you say
"groupie"?

[fan 3] She's known as a liar.

[fan 4] The whole claim
was bogus.

[official] Hey.

[official speaking]

[woman speaking]

She ended up dropping the case

because people
tracked her down
on social media.

You know, perpetrators
just don't groom the victim.

They groom other people too.

He has enough
of a market share

that he can have an audience

full of sympathetic
assault deniers.

[excited fan chatter]

[Carpenter] There are a number
of big superstars

who have
a very diehard fan base.

Their core fans.

You've got Beyonce's Beehive,

you've got
Nicki Minaj's Barbies,

Rihanna's Navy.

And oftentimes,

men don't have fan bases

who are quite as diehard

as some
of the female stars do.

But Chris Brown does.

[excited fan chatter]

Why would teenagers
sort of side with Chris Brown?

What I found is that
if you are exposed to violence
in your community,

if you're exposed
to violence in your home,

you don't label
or see the violence
in the same way

because it is normalized
all around you.

On top of it is a ongoing,
culturally exhausting,

endless well of hatred
that we have for women.

If people think
that you deserve it,

then that's how
they're gonna talk to you.

If people think
that you were asking for it,

that's how
they're gonna treat you.

If you have
any inclination towards fame,

they'll find it
and they'll run at you
with it.

You have to have
all of these structures
and these pieces

put into place perfectly

so that an audience
believes your performance
of victimhood.

[Gutierrez] I'm originally
from Brazil.

I came to Las Vegas
almost 15 years ago.

I was in the backstage
at Chris Brown's concert.

I was there with my friend.

The show was about to finish.

Chris Brown's friend
come and talk to me like,

"Hey, we're trying
to get some girls

to go with us
to the after party.

Would you like to go?"

I was like, "Yeah, sure.
Let's go. Let's do it."

I didn't even think,
"Oh, my God, this guy
that beat up Rihanna."

I was not thinking about that.

I was just thinking about,
"Oh, let's go to after party.
Let's go have fun."

[Koul] She goes
to his hotel suite,

at which point she's asked
to give up her phone.

They're trying to
preserve their privacy.

They're celebrities,
they're public figures.

So when I got there,
there was like this little bar

and I saw cocaine.

I saw some pills, weed.

Everything was there.

When I saw Chris Brown
the first time at the party,

he was acting weird,
extremely weird.

And then I decided
to grab my phone
and take a picture of him.

To be honest,
I think I got, like,

stuck in the moment
when I saw him acting crazy,

and once I got my phone,

he saw me with my phone.

Chris Brown
punched me in the face.

I'm not saying
that it was right

what I did with my phone.

I know that.

But that
doesn't give you rights

to punch me in the face.

Just kick me out of the party.

[interviewer speaking]

I filed a report.

And for my surprise,

they decided that
he didn't want to
press charges.

So I decided
to file the lawsuit

because I knew
I had my rights.

And in response,
he posts a video.

Obviously, somebody
just looking to get a check
or start some [bleep]."

I don't know
this old-looking [bleep].

This old, like, dusty--

That just goes to show you
that he's learned nothing.

If you came to Vegas,
you probably came to my room,

you was too ugly to get in.

So the message is that

somehow you have no value
or any worth to me

if you're somehow
not attracted.

So it wasn't enough
to physically assault her,

but then to verbally
and emotionally assault her
on social media.

He used the same strategies

that you would see
in intimate partner
relationships.

Right after Chris
has his deposition,

it was the time
that his lawyers decided
to do the settlement.

[Carpenter] Chris does say

that time and time again,

these people are lying,

that there's this sort of

negative campaign against me.

[paparazzi clamoring]

But he's
the common denominator.

It does have
some people wondering,

"Well, if he's doing
that in public...

what's he doing
behind closed doors?"

[Carpenter] When you look at
Chris Brown's rap sheet,

there are sexual assault
allegations in there as well.

In 2017, Chris was 28,

and the woman says
that her and a friend

were invited to an after party

at Chris Brown's
recording studio.

And then, eventually,
Chris Brown's home.

And in order
to party with them,

they take her phone.

She gives them her phone.

They will not give it back

when she says
that she wants to leave.

[Dorsey] What this
young victim noticed

when she first got
to Chris's house is that

he was allegedly supplying
everybody with drugs,

and it seemed to her
what he was trying to do

was to get everybody's
inhibitions lowered.

[Koul] So at the house
she's taken into another room

where there's
a bunch of adults

having sex with each other.

She says that Chris asked
for the door to be barricaded.

She claimed that
she was sexually assaulted

multiple times
at Chris Brown's home.

She didn't directly accuse
Chris Brown of sexual assault,

but she did accuse him
of sort of having
this environment

to initiate
some sort of an orgy.

Once she got her phone back
and she left the premises,

she reported the situation
right away to police,

and she did a rape kit.

Police never charged
Chris Brown,

apparently because
of a lack of evidence.

But there was a civil suit
that was filed,

and then eventually
it was quietly settled.

[Dorsey] Generally,
cases settled out of court
does not mean

that the allegations
did not occur.

It does not mean
that this person
was just a gold digger

and out looking for money.

It just means
that this entity,

this individual
don't want it to get out.

After that, there were
more allegations
that came forward.

Two years later,
another woman came forward

accusing Chris
of aggravated rape.

[man speaking French]

[in English]
Paris police talked to him,

but he was released
without any charges.

[Sayegh] While we all
love the theory

that we're all equal
under the law,

justice is not equal.

And it also happens to those

who have
extreme amount of wealth

and extreme amounts
of celebrity.

[Carpenter] One of
Chris Brown's attorneys
is Mark Geragos,

and he is a renowned
defense attorney.

He's worked with
some of the biggest stars
in the world.

Michael Jackson, Diddy,
Winona Ryder, Nicole Richie.

And he's really known
for keeping his celeb clients
out of jail.

And then there was
another lawsuit
against Chris Brown

accusing him of rape.

[Dorsey] These are all
very different people

in different countries now
who don't know one another

who've had
very similar allegations

with the same
common denominator:

Chris Brown.

Everybody can't be lying.

There's something here
that we at least need
to pay attention to.

But the problem is,

all we know from them
is the lawsuit,

and we never hear
from these women.

So we never
really get the full story.

We never get to
hear the details
straight from their mouth.

[interviewer speaking]

[Jane Doe breathes deeply]

[voice distorted] Yeah. Um...

Chris Brown raped me.

It was rape.

[interviewer speaking]

[Jane Doe] Even coming forward
as a Jane Doe,

some people still found out
who I was

and I was attacked
on the media.

Death threats.

Like, I got a lot of
different stuff

that made it
very scary for me.

So even coming forward
now with this,

I'm just hoping that
I can shed light

to what really happened.

[clears throat]

I had just moved to LA.

I was trying to pursue
a dance career,

and it was about to be
the New Year,

so we went out to Miami.

It was just gonna be
me and my friend.

But two days
before New Year's,

I get a FaceTime call

and it's from this guy
I had met back in LA.

And he's like, "Oh, hey,
I see you're in Miami."
And I'm like, "Yeah."

Then he's like,
"Well, you should pull up.

I'm at Diddy's house
right now."

And then he, like,
pans the camera
and he's on a yacht.

And it's like a big yacht,
literally, I guess,
Danny's house.

And I was like, "Oh, okay,
well, I guess that's better
than the beach.

So I was like, "Okay, cool."

[Koul] Since Spring 2024,
Diddy has been the center

of a couple of rape
and assault allegations
and investigations,

and in September,

he was charged
with racketeering
and sex trafficking.

He pled not guilty.

I think a lot of people
had heard all sorts of things

about Diddy
throughout the years,

but in 2020,
he wasn't being investigated.

We get on the yacht
and it's the morning time,

so it's like 10:00 am,

and everybody is, like,
drunk and hungover, I guess,

still, from the night before.

There wasn't a lot of people.

It was like, really,
maybe like 15 people.

So I see Diddy.
He welcomes us
and he's really nice.

And then I see my friend,
I go hug him.

And then I see Chris.

I grew up listening
to all the R&B
and everything,

but what I liked about Chris

was, like, he was
an all-around entertainer.

I thought it was like a sign.

Like, hey, maybe I could
talk to this person

who is literally
the king of R&B,

and he would
maybe be able to help me

or guide me
or give me some advice.

Just, if that's
the base level,

and then the craziest,
obvious dream would be

like for him to, you know,
maybe putting me on his tour.

The only thing bad about Chris

that we all know
is that he was abusive
towards Rihanna.

But I wasn't even
thinking about that.

[Koul] I don't know
how old this Jane Doe is,

but let's say this Jane Doe
is 21 or 22.

To her, the last time
Rihanna was in the picture
with Chris Brown,

that was 10 years earlier.

So she was 11 or 12.

She doesn't necessarily
understand what happened
with Rihanna.

She maybe doesn't even know
that he admitted to it.

She doesn't know fully
that he has a predilection

for punching women
in the face.

Allegedly.

[Jane Doe] Chris came over
and he was just like,

"You know,
are you having a good time?"

I was just like,
"Yeah, I'm good."

And then I just
compliment him,

like, "You're obviously
a great dancer.

I'm a dancer, too."

He was like, "Oh, how long
you been dancing?"

And I told him
I just moved to LA

and I, you know,
want to dance.

He's like,
"Just keep grinding,

keep networking

and you'll get where
you need to go."

And I was like, "Yeah."

[interviewer speaking]

We had talked
and he had handed me a drink.

I'm not even sure.

This is where
my memory starts getting
a little bit weird.

So he had handed me a drink

and I don't remember
if I saw him pour it,

but I just drank it.

And then he just hands me
another drink

and I'm like,
"Okay, this is cool."

And so as I'm staying there,

I did start to feel like,
just kind of tired,

and my body was just
feeling like a little heavy
or whatever,

and he was just like,

"You know,
it's kind of loud out here.

Do you want to go
towards the back?"

And I was like, " Sure."

So I'm like,
"Oh, he's gonna take me
on a tour of the yacht.

This is great."

We go down to the back
and it's like a bedroom.

And then he, like,
kind of just sprawls out
on the bed.

And so we're just
talking, talking,

and I hate
that I can't really...

[voice breaking] even remember
what we were talking about.

I just, I remember
I did lay back.

[sniffles]

And I'm like,
"Why can't I get up?"

The next thing I knew,
he was on top of me.

I couldn't move.

And I said no,
and then I felt him...

Yeah, next thing I knew,
he was, like, inside me,

and I didn't want...

He was just like, "It's okay."

And he's, like, kissing me
to stop me from talking.

And then I felt him,
like, [bleep] inside of me,

and I was just, like,
so disgusted.

He grabbed my phone
and he was like,

"Now, when you
come back to LA,

like, you know,
you can just hit me up."

He puts his number in
and texts himself, "Hey."

[sniffling]

That is not uncommon,

especially if somebody

has taken advantage
of someone.

It makes more sense
to keep them close,

to send them positive messages

and making sure
that they're not going

and reporting anything
and that it's all good.

[Jane Doe] Most girls,
I think, would be happy

that, "Oh, my God,
I got to have sex
with Chris Brown."

I didn't want that.

Like, this is not
what I wanted.

[sniffles]

[West] This woman
is describing

how non-stranger
rapists operate.

A researcher
did a study on men

who had committed rape
on college campus.

There was a real clear pattern

about how
these rapists operate.

First, they target select.

So the predator's gonna go to
some kind of social setting.

They're not gonna
select the person

who is powerful or successful
or credible,

if they went to the police,
would immediately be believed.

They're gonna select
a person who's vulnerable,

who's new to town
or needy in some way.

So here's a woman
new to Los Angeles,

trying to make it
in the business,

hoping for that big break.

The perpetrators
will also manipulate you
with drugs or alcohol.

The third step
is increasing vulnerability.

"Oh, it's really noisy
down here.

Let's go somewhere and talk."

And then take the young woman
back to the room.

Here she is, impaired,
with a strange man,

and then they would
initiate the assault.

They didn't have to physically
use a lot of violence.

And then you go away
from that interaction
and think,

"How did I get myself
in this situation?"

My brain is just like really

trying to rationalize
what just happened.

"How did this happen?"

Did I agree to this?

"This is my fault."

It's like, I'm even...
I'm confused myself.

"I should have
seen the signs."

I didn't want anyone to know.

I was just, like,
so embarrassed.

[West] But what
they don't understand
is that it didn't just happen.

The perpetrator set it up.

[Jane Doe] When we did leave,
he texted me.

He was just like,
"Hey, it was nice
meeting you,

and, oh, yeah,
would you mind, like,
grabbing a Plan B?"

And I was just like,
"What the [bleep]?"

Like, I was like...

You know,
but I was actually like,

"This is a good idea
because I don't want
any of this."

I didn't want any of this.

And so I did, and I took it,

and then, like the next day...

I don't know
if I should talk about this

or if this was known
that I texted about sex again.

There's so much work
that women do
after they're assaulted

to wrestle control back
of the story
we tell ourselves.

I was actually really hurt.

So I was still trying to,
like, you know,

salvage what could happen.

And what we end up doing

is lying to ourselves
a little bit.

"Look at this famous guy
who gave me his phone number.

Something must have
gone right.

Maybe if I see him again,
maybe everything will be okay,

and then
I don't have to investigate

this life event
that's happened to me."

Maybe I just do need
to get more clarity,

and that's why I still did
continue to talk to him

when I went back to LA.

Then he, like, FaceTimed me,

and he never
really brought it up.

It was like a weird position
of, like, this person

who just did
this bad thing to me,

but now he's still
being nice to me.

And so I was like,
well, maybe he is sorry

and people do make mistakes
and other things,

and I still was so confused.

[West] We have
a lot of stereotypes
about rape,

but if you're not ready
to acknowledge it to yourself,

we call those
unacknowledged victims.

So out of the...
he would he randomly call me,
like, every few weeks.

It was kind of more
getting into a sexual nature,

like, he was just like,

"Show me what you're wearing,"
and "Oh, you look so good,"

and whatever.

Then he would sometimes say,
like, "Oh, send me a picture,"

or "Send me something sexy."

And so he would say that
over the phone.

And so then
I would text it to him,

and then
that's what it mainly was.

Over the course
of the next months,

most of our communication
was like FaceTime.

And now that I'm looking back,
I'm like,

"Oh, the FaceTime
covered your tracks

'cause I can't prove
anything you say."

But the thing that I saw
he was responding mainly to

was like me being
sexy and stuff.

Like, "Okay, like,
let me just..."

At this point,
I had convinced myself.

I was like, "Well, this is
what I gotta do,
and this is it."

[Jane Doe
speaking on voicemail]

[Taylor] She wants
the connection because
that's keeping her

from kind of moving into
that space of "I was raped."

Because if he then stops,
that makes things very real.

And that's when I did
start going to therapy,

and I finally was able
to, like, open up about
what really happened.

And it's like a long time.

[interviewer speaking]

[sighs] Yeah. Um...

Chris Brown raped me.

And I can say that,

and I know it for a fact

instead of telling myself
that I wasn't...

and it was. It was rape.

My name is
Ariel Mitchell, Esq.

There was a case
I was already working on,

and one of the clients
in that case,

she had posted on Twitter

that she had been
sexually assaulted.

[Jane Doe] I had been
seeing in the media

something similar
had happened to this girl.

And so there was this website

where you could
leave a comment,
and so I did.

Probably saw an opportunity

to support a girl
with my story.

And the legal team
reached out to me.

She tells me
that she was at Diddy's house
and was sexually assaulted.

But it was Chris Brown.

I thought, "How do I
help this young lady?

How do I even
verify her story?"

So certain things
I didn't have anymore

because I had got a new phone,

and so I didn't have
all of the exact texts.

I just had
certain screenshots.

[Mitchell]
But in this situation,
we had, at least enough,

for me to verify
you were there.

He was there.

It occurred on this day.

And then she also provided us
some messages

from after that time
to support.

They were like,

"Hey, you might have
a case as well,"

and I was like, "Oh.

That wasn't the intention."

And he was like,
"Well, maybe you should try.

We can keep you anonymous.

It would help other people
to come forward too."

We filed
and made it go public.

The media response
was overwhelming.

Chris Brown
is going to turn around
and decide to rape a gal.

I think it's highly...
it's highly unlikely.

Chris Brown
is in trouble again.

Let's talk about
the $20 million lawsuit

filed against Chris Brown
for alleged rape.

Now he's being sued
by a woman.

$20 million lawsuit.

[people echoing] $20 million.

We hear what we consider
astronomical numbers,

but it's about penalty.

It's about punitive.

If I go assault somebody
and it's only gonna
cost me ten grand,

what is that when
I'm a multi-millionaire,
right?

Punish them
so they don't do it again.

[Koul] If you don't go
through the civil courts,
then what are you left with?

But if you just
dash off a blog post

or you do an interview
or whatever else,

what do you get there?

More people saying
that you're making it up
for attention.

So she's either making it up
for attention or for money,

or she's got to
shut the [bleep] up.

Those are the three options.

There's a secret fourth,

which is that
the justice system takes over

and does
what it's supposed to do.

[Mitchell] So we actually
had a conversation

with the police department.

I feel like the police
were there because of
the media attention.

The Miami Police detective

said that she had
received information
from Chris Brown's team

and that
their version of events

was that my client
was a crazed fan.

[Carpenter]
Here's the thing, though.

Police found out
that this woman
had sent a text to Chris

the next day
after it had happened,

and she says,
"I just want to be
with you again sexually."

[Mitchell] Once these messages
had come out,

we were just like,
"Well, why didn't you
give us this initially?"

She told me something about

her phone auto deleted
all the messages after a year,

and she switched service,

so she didn't have
those old messages anymore.

[Carpenter] Also, Chris Brown
had some text messages

that she had just sent to him
over months.

Not only that,
he also had a voicemail

that she had left for him.

[Jane Doe in voicemail]
Just let me know.

You want me
to leave you alone,
I definitely will.

She had sent him a nude photo.

Then Chris ghosted her
and he didn't text her back.

And then she sent an emoji

with sort of tears
in the eyes.

[Mitchell] These messages
are messages

that Chris Brown and his team
provided to the police.

There's only one side
of the conversation here,

and she's just texting a ghost
from the end of January...

to August.

[Jane Doe] And the way
he provided the messages,

it made it look like
I was talking to myself.

Like I was just
sending him pictures
and voice notes and stuff

and asking to come over
and all this.

But it was not that.

My client was able to provide
alternative messages

that actually included
the deleted messages
from Chris.

He was not just ignoring her.
He was keeping it going.

But it was hard to verify

which series of text messages
were accurate.

That became a separate issue
because now it's like,

"Okay, well, is my client
fabricating evidence
to the police?"

I believe that Chris deleted
all of his responses
to those messages.

[Mitchell] So my policy
is very simple.

I need to know everything.

I think maybe she didn't
come forward with these

'cause she wouldn't have to
go through

an additional line
of questioning of,

"Well, why were you
just being chill with him?"

Which is understandable.

In all honesty,
I was concerned about
if it was a situation of

"Do these messages
just not exist,

or do they just not exist
to me right now?"

Which are two
different things.

So we had went so far
as trying to get subpoenas

for the telephone companies

to recover, possibly,
the messages.

Which, apparently,
is very difficult
and very expensive.

Now we're only left
with the messages from Chris

when we have no evidence
to contradict.

It was almost like
a lot of egg on my face

because I had a lot of people
personally contact me and say,

"That's what you get
for going up against
Chris Brown."

Under no circumstance
do I believe Chris is innocent

or that this didn't happen.

And I informed my client.

I said, "Don't take
this representation
and us not continuing

as a means to not pursue this
with another attorney."

And I just think she just
was so saddened by the process

that she didn't
even want to tell

another set of attorneys
what had happened.

It was heartbreaking.

Honestly,
I was so heartbroken,

I cried the whole day.

I knew I was going like
David and Goliath,

but in real life,

a rock is not gonna do
anything to a big giant.

[Mitchell] I absolutely feel
that the industry
is protecting Chris Brown

and individuals like him.

They say with great power
comes great responsibility,
but not here.

With great power
comes great abuse.

[people clamoring]

[Koul] What happened
with Rihanna

happened with a famous person,

and there were visuals
for us to look at.

But everybody after her
wasn't really famous.

Several of these women
don't even have names.

With everybody else,
he can just say,

"Oh, it's bullshit. She lied.

And they will give me
the benefit of the doubt

before they give it
to some woman

they've never
heard of before."

I just think
he's a violent person,

personally.

You're supposed to mature
as you get older.

He's got 15, at least,

cases of reported,
whether criminally
or civil actions against him,

causing acts of violence.

And just recently,
out of Texas,

a $50 million lawsuit.

This isn't
a domestic violence case,

but reported violence.

But look how long it took
for R. Kelly to fall.

It wasn't good enough
that we had video of him
peeing on a young girl.

That wasn't gonna do it.

It took things
like a docuseries.

It took the power
of the media.

The same thing
that builds them

has to be the same thing
that destroys them.

[inhales deeply] And I just...

I wish it didn't happen.
Like, I wish...

I can go back
and never go in that yacht

and just be a normal girl

and I didn't
have to go through all this,
but I did.

[sniffles]

[West] Domestic violence
thrives on silence,
secrecy and shame.

So it's all around us
all of the time,

but we don't talk about it.

Unless people
start speaking up

and that people actually stop

victim blaming the people
who do speak up,

then that's the only way
that he can be stopped.

[Dorsey] Chris Brown
is an amazing
and talented musician,

but let's call a thing
a thing.

I think
he's an abuser of women.

Consistently,
unapologetically.

[Taylor] And we have to
talk about holding
ourselves accountable.

Okay, why continue
to support people

that we know
are harmful people?

What does that say about us?

We can make the argument

that the situation
with Rihanna happened
15 years ago.

Maybe she's forgiven him,
she's moved on.

Maybe a lot of people have.

But don't forget
that there have been
several instances since then.

Don't forget Paris.
Don't forget Vegas.

Don't forget the yacht.

Don't forget the after party.

[man] Back up!
Back up! Back up!

[Taylor] Don't forget
Karrueche Tran.

Don't forget
Good Morning America.

Don't forget him
throwing a brick

through his mother's
car windshield.

Don't forget all these stories

that have come from people
that have felt like
they weren't heard.

[woman crying]

Don't forget that they exist.

[sniffles]

As long as anybody is a victim
of intimate partner violence,

we have to talk about it.

That no one gets a pass.

Domestic violence goes beyond
the story of one celebrity.

Intimate partner violence
alone affects

more than 10 million people
each year

across every race,
class and gender.

My name is Sunny Hostin.

For years, I was
a federal prosecutor

and a voice for victims,

especially the ones impacted

by domestic violence.

It's an epidemic
that hides in plain sight.

And so to expose
the ugly truth

around this issue,

I'm sitting
with the organization

that has answered
more than 7 million calls

for support and safety,

and a woman,

whose crowning moment was not
only winning a beauty pageant,

but bravely calling out
her abuser in public.

Because my abuser is
here today.

And later, ID's
No Excuse For Abuse partner,

who has
the only global directory

of helplines and services.

A look at how
a blockbuster movie sparked

dialogue and awareness.

More on that later.

But first, we have
pop culture writer,

Scaachi Koul.

Thanks for joining me.

Thanks for having me.

You know, what struck me

was that the assault
on Rihanna was

over 15 years ago.

But I remember it
like it was yesterday...

-Mm-hmm.
-...because I remember
being in the courtroom.

But I just recently
had a friend

take her son
and a group of other children

to a Chris Brown concert.

And when they came back,

I was sort of shocked.

And I said to her
and to the teenagers,

"Do you know that he really,
really hurt Rihanna?"

-Mm-hmm.
-They had no idea.

And then I showed them
the pictures.

The reactions were different.

One 14-year-old was horrified.

One immediately deleted
every Chris Brown song

from her playlist.

One said,
"Well, what if it's AI?"

-Yeah, yeah.
-[laughing] Okay.

So when you're talking
about this generation,

how do we get them
to pay attention

to something like this?

Well, they're not
going to pay attention to it

-if we're not
paying attention to it.
-Mmm.

We have a long tradition
of still engaging

in work made by men
accused of harming women.

And they make money
off of that.

-They make a lot
of money off of it, yeah.
-Yeah.

And that money helps
obfuscate the reality

of what they may have done.

Do you think a part
of this could be

the notion is, you know,

he was held
criminally accountable,

he did his own documentary,

admitted what he did,

and he deserves to move on?

I mean, maybe.

-He can do whatever he wants.
-Mm-hmm.

And everybody gets
to make their own decision

about what they do with it.

If one person takes
accountability

for something one time,
that's wonderful,

but it doesn't
necessarily mean

that we have to not talk
about it anymore.

-Yeah.
-It's still in the culture.

It's still something
we're trying to make sense of.

And there are still a lot
of people who are defiant

about the facts
around Chris Brown and Rihanna

that still think,
"What did she do wrong?"

Or, you know, "How do we know
that really happened?"

Even though he has admitted
to a lot of these details,

we're not done.

The work is not done.

I would tell people,

-"Google the photos".
-Yeah. Yeah.

Because we don't show them
in the documentary,

-but they are brutal.
-Yeah.

But I would hope eventually
we can get to a place

where we don't have to share

the ugliest sides
of ourselves as victims

in order for people
to recognize what happened.

Well, one thing, though.

The Rihanna incident was
15 years ago.

But in the documentary,

-there is
another alleged survivor.
-Mm-hmm.

And that was just
a few years ago.

Why do we then still have
this amnesia?

[sighs] I think we are
primed to believe people

whose names we know
and whose faces we recognize.

And I think he provides
a service to people,

which is that he makes music
that they like,

and the music is tied
to their memories

and tied to their feelings.

And this woman is
just some girl.

She is no Rihanna.

Yes. I think
there's a clear reason

why that case was so big.

-It's because he did it
to someone we knew.
-Mm-hmm.

And so it becomes
harder to say,

-"Well, that couldn't have
possibly happened."
-Mmm.

Because you like her,
and you know her,

and you have
a parasocial relationship

with her, too.

Similar to how you might
have one with Chris.

It's the same thing with,
like, Diddy and Cassie.

[ominous music playing]

[Sunny] We've seen the video

of Sean Diddy Combs beating
Cassie Ventura.

What was so galling about it
is that he is following her.

But you can see
that she exited the situation.

-She was trying to leave.
-Yes.

[Scaachi] And he feels
bold enough

to run out in the hallway
of a hotel in a towel,

and he drags her
back into it, literally.

-And didn't fight back at all.
-No.

-Couldn't.
-Couldn't.

Don't you think

that that video changed
his accountability?

Well, it had to.

-What else was
he going to say?
-Right.

I don't know what to do
with a culture

that feels like it needs

to watch women be
brutalized like that

-in order to believe her.
-Mm-hmm.

-She told us a thousand times.
-Yes.

There was obviously
a lot of energy

put into trying to keep
that video from coming out.

Well, yes, he didn't think,

-I think, it would
ever come out.
-Yeah.

-He seemed
pretty confident because--
-And...

-She files a lawsuit,
and then, of course...
-Yeah.

...the next thing
that happened was

he settled the next day.

But do you think

they are less likely to lie

because they're celebrities

and these other women
that come forward,

it's just a money grab?

I do think

that a lot of people will
look at a famous person

and a non-famous person

and think
the non-famous person

will get
something out of this.

There's [chuckles] riches
on the other side

of accusing a rich,
wealthy person

of having harmed them.

But for a celebrity,
there's only downside.

It's downside across the board
is the reality of it.

And any woman
who's ever come forward

about a boss
who's harassed them

or a boyfriend
who won't leave them alone

or any man
who's ever bothered them,

they know
the downside is enormous.

And rape is really
the most underreported crime

-in our country.
-Yeah.

I think only second
to domestic violence.

Yeah, and those are two crimes
where the first question,

unlike with a home invasion
or a robbery,

-people ask,
"Well, what did you do?"
-Yeah.

"How did
you make this happen?"

There's almost no upside
in saying anything.

Thanks for joining me.

Thanks for having me.

Up next, we hear
from 2024's Miss Kansas

and the viral moment

that sparked
controversy nationwide.

But that's not
going to stop me

-from being
on this Miss Kansas stage...
-[audience cheering]

...and from representing

as the next Miss Kansas.

With us, we have Katie Jones,

CEO of the National
Domestic Violence Hotline,

Alexis Smith, Miss Kansas,

an advocate
for healthy relationships,

and Psychologist
Dr. Carolyn West,

a resident fellow

at the University
of Washington.

Thank you so much
for joining me.

And Katie,
let me go to you first.

It seems to me

that this country frames
domestic violence

as a black and brown problem.

I don't think that's true.

Domestic violence does
not discriminate

based on race,

socioeconomic status,
educational background.

It impacts anyone
and everyone.

One in four women,

one in seven men
will experience

severe physical violence
in their lifetime.

However, we know
some communities are

disproportionately impacted,

and that's important
to recognize.

And we know
that certain communities may

have more challenges
accessing services.

One in three Latino women
report domestic violence.

American Indian,
Alaska Native women report

four in five.

So there are
certain circumstances

where that may be exasperated.

It's a everybody problem

-that we all have to be
concerned about.
-[Sunny] Mm-hmm.

[Carolyn] So the challenge is,

you know, being
a professor for 30 years,

I really devoted my life

to figuring out,

well, how do we talk

about the similarities

across these different groups

without erasing
the experiences

of these
marginalized populations,

but then how do we talk
about the differences

without reinforcing
the same stereotypes.

[Sunny] But what scares me

when I think about this,

are the women, let's say,
in the middle of the country

that are living alone

with their spouse

-who owns a gun...
-[Katie] Mmm.

...who is best friends
with the only sheriff in town,

and who is completely reliant
upon a spouse

and is raising young children.

That scares me.

You bring up
an important point.

People in small communities,
who are they going to call?

Certain places get
more attention

to domestic violence
than others,

which is why it's important
to talk about it.

We know
that it is so pervasive

and it's often the secret.

And yet, so many people,

when we hear
about tragedy happening,

say, "Something told me

something was wrong
in our relationship

and I didn't know what to do."

There are people,
I think, that are probably

in abusive relationships

and don't recognize the signs
of these relationships.

Can you give us
some sort of roadmap?

Things like jealousy

and possessiveness.

If there's verbal
and emotional abuse.

[Katie] 98% of relationships
where there's abuse,

-there's financial control
happening.
-[Carolyn] Mmm.

It is a great way to keep
someone in a relationship

is if they can't break free

'cause they don't have
the money to do so.

If you feel like your world is
getting smaller,

you're cutting off contact

with important people
in your life

because of this individual,

that really may be
a indication as well.

Now, Miss Kansas,

you shared with the world

that you had been abused.

What gave you the courage
to tell the world

that that had been
happening to you?

Yeah, so as Miss Kansas,

I represent with my community
service initiative

Respect Reclaimed

advocating
for healthy relationships.

It stems from my own
personal experience

of falling
into my family cycle of abuse

at the age of 14.

This same partner that I had
experienced as a teenage girl

was the exact same
former partner

that showed up
at the Miss Kansas
competition.

And so when I was asked,

what would be my vision
as Miss Kansas...

What will be your vision

as the next brand ambassador

for the Miss Kansas
Organization?

My vision
as the next Miss Kansas is

to eliminate unhealthy
and abusive relationships.

Matter of fact, some of you
out in this audience saw me

very emotional

because my abuser is
here today.

But that's not gonna stop me

-from being
on this Miss Kansas stage...
-[audience cheering]

...and from representing

as the next Miss Kansas.

Ultimately, in that moment,
it wasn't courage.

It was anger.

-[Sunny] Mmm.
-[Alexis] It was fear.

It was frustration of facing
my abuser during intermission.

That is the only thing
that was on my mind.

In a way, he took
this opportunity away from me.

He took the opportunity away
from me to really explain

why I wanted to be Miss Kansas
in the first place.

But I'm glad that I don't know
where it came from. [chuckles]

I'm glad that it did come out.

That way, one,
I called him an abuser

-for the first time...
-[Sunny] Mmm.

...to his face,

but also showed everyone

that the crown
and the sash, it's great.

It provides me
this amazing platform.

But I'm so much more under it.

-I have a story under it.
-[Sunny] Yeah.

And we're all seeing it
right here.

My understanding is

that you did try to go through
the criminal justice system.

-Right?
-I did.

So unfortunately,
at the Miss Kansas
competition,

I did not have
a protection order

-put in place.
-[Sunny] Mm-hmm.

Previously for a couple
of years,

I did try and get that order,

but unfortunately,
I didn't have an address

for them to be able to serve
that documentation to him.

And so moving forward,

I just kind of start
building that case,

keeping that paper trail
that way

whenever I did have
that address, I was ready,

and that's exactly what I did

after the Miss Kansas
competition.

I went through 12 weeks...

-[Sunny] Mm-hmm.
-[Alexis] ...of getting
this protection order,

but just last week, I finally
was able to serve him.

He actually agreed
to the protection order,

but even within accepting
the protection order,

he asked multiple times,

"So it's just
one year, right?"

-Wow.
-[Alexis]
"It's just one year."

So yes, I do have
this protection order

put in place,

but it feels
like a countdown...

Mmm. Yeah.

...of when he's gonna
be ready to step back in.

Our system, in my view,
has not caught up

with domestic violence.

Do you think
these restraining orders

and protective orders
are helpful?

-[Katie] It's a tool
in your toolbox.
-[Carolyn] Mmm.

That could be the tool
that sets your partner off,

and they become more violent
when you get that.

It could be the tool

that gets your partner
to stay away from you.

You know your abusive partner
the best.

And that's where
you want to speak

with an advocate about,

is a restraining order
right for you.

Because you are the expert
of your own life.

And I will say, initially,

I was terrified
to get a protection order

because I knew that my abuser

-is very unpredictable.
-[ladies assent]

And so as you mentioned,
the setting him off,

I mean, he was already
having threats of suicide.

And from my perspective,

if you're willing
to do this to yourself,

why wouldn't you do it
to me as well?

So even today,
with this protection order,

I still have fears
of murder-suicide.

Well, Katie,
let me ask you about this.

There are people that have
to leave their homes

in the middle of the night

with their children,

just the clothes
on their backs,

while their abuser may
be drunk or asleep.

What do you tell
those women or those men

at that moment?

I think people think
it's so easy

to get up and leave

and it is
incredibly difficult.

One, I hope there's
a shelter bed available

because the domestic violence
service system has been

overburdened
and under-resourced

-since the beginning of time.
-[Sunny] Mmm.

So oftentimes someone could be

calling the National
Domestic Violence Hotline

and we're trying to find
a shelter where there's space.

There might be a waitlist
for counseling services.

And then we're saying,

"If there is a bed,
can you get a bag?

Can you grab your ID?

You might have to change
your kids' schools.

You might have
to change jobs."

It is not an easy removal.

And we're saying
"It's going to get harder

before it gets better."

And we're also saying

"Your chances
of lethality increase

when you're going
to leave that relationship,

because that is
when your abusive partner is

losing power
and control over you,

and violence can
become more dangerous.

This is
the most dangerous time
for you in the relationship."

-Leaving is
the most dangerous time.
-Leaving the relationship.

And I think that's why we have
to talk about safety planning.

You want to say
more about that, Katie,

in terms of how
to get that safety plan

with your organization

or how
you did that effectively?

[Katie] So safety planning is
a critical piece

of your relationship
when there's abuse,

whether that's
your planning to leave

or you're still staying
in that relationship.

And it is not
a one-size-fits-all.

And speaking with an advocate,

whether you're calling
the National Domestic
Violence Hotline

or your local program,
is the first step.

You want to talk
to a skilled advocate

-on how to do that.
-[Sunny] Mmm.

But planning an exit strategy
in your home,

should violence break out,
would be step number one.

Where you might think
the safest place is
in your home,

there's often things
in that place

that can be used as weapons,

and it can be very dangerous.

-So we want
to craft that with you.
-True.

-Kitchen.
-[Carolyn] Kitchen.

There's boiling water,
knives, pots, pans

that can be used as weapons.

In your bathroom,
the toilet can be used

to drown you.

Like, there's many things

that you want to craft
a very special plan

to think through.

Where's the safest place?

What's your exit
out of the house?

What's a code word
you can use with your kids...

-[Carolyn] Mm-hmm.
-...to tell them,

-"Run to the neighbor's house
to get help"?
-That's good.

[Katie] Is there a way
that you can leave a light on

-in your porch or off...
-[Carolyn] Mm-hmm.

that tells your neighbors,
"I need help"?

Who can you talk to
in your safety network

that is a way that they know

that you need help
when you need it?

Domestic violence thrives
on silence,

secrecy, and shame.

-Ah.
-So the perpetrator is

counting on you
being isolated.

[Katie] And that's where
we want to talk

to family and friends.

Don't give up

on your family member.

That is
an abusive partner's dream.

When you give up,
they have them.

Try to stay
in that nonjudgmental place.

Be a support person.

Because when they're ready,

they're going
to need you to lean on.

Thank you so much for sharing
your expertise and your story.

[guests] Thank you.

Coming up, how is
Hollywood taking action?

And if you are experiencing
domestic violence

and not sure where to turn,

you'll be surprised
that you could already

be talking to someone
about it once a month.

With me is Jane Randel,
co-founder of No More,

ID's No Excuse
for Abuse partner.

No More increases
awareness worldwide

and fuels culture change
in a multitude of ways.

Most recently,

they consulted
on the Blake Lively film,

It Ends with Us.

So, Jane, I love the work
that No More does.

And I loved the movie,

It Ends with Us.

-And so did millions
and millions of other people.
-[Sunny chuckling] Yes.

[Jane] The movie,
It Ends With Us, is

about people who don't realize

that they're
in an abusive relationship.

What was it
about No More's work

that led to working

with director Justin Baldoni

on such an important film?

[Jane] I met Justin years ago,

and he got to understand
what No More was about,

and when they were
working on the script,

he was very committed
to getting it right.

He said, "Let's work together
on this."

No More has worked
on the movie

-for about two years...
-Mmm.

[Jane] ...from the time
of the script,

through a read-through,
providing advice,

helping Justin,

helping to arrange for him
to go sit in

-on a batterer's
intervention program...
-Mmm.

...so that it was
portrayed in a way

-that was realistic...
-Yes.

...and accessible

and would grab people.

Part of the other way
that No More helped

with the movie,
It Ends with Us,

is by creating resources.

A Viewer's Guide,
a Survivors Guide

community guides,

and those resources have been
downloaded thousands of times

since the launch of the movie.

One fascinating thing
I thought about the film is,

as you're consuming it,
you're just watching it,

and then all of a sudden,

-you see it
from her point of view.
-Right.

[woman whimpering]
Please don't do this!

Please! Please! Please!

[woman panting]

[Sunny] I thought
that was masterful.

I took my husband to see it.

You know, he felt
sort of like, "Wait, I've been

-tricked in a weird way."
-Yeah.

And I was like, "Well,
that was sort of the point."

Because you'd be surprised

how many people don't realize

-that they're
in an abusive relationship.
-Yeah.

There are people

who have shared their stories
of walking away from the movie

and literally leaving
their abuser that night.

Really?

And people are
sharing these stories.

And that, I know, was one
of Justin Baldoni's goals,

was to reach that person
in the theater who needs help.

[Sunny] There's an importance
in educating the public.

And speaking of that,

there's an organization
called Shear Haven

that taps a small group
that reaches the masses.

We have some video.

My name is
Susanne Shepherd Post,

and I'm a salon owner
in Nashville, Tennessee.

We spend hours
with our clients.

Often we'll see them
more frequently

than they see
some of their best friends.

And there's times
that we can sense

when something isn't
quite right.

We might see bruising,

patches of hair
that have been pulled.

I've heard people disclose

something about
their relationship

that honestly is a red flag.

And that's why I knew

that beauty professionals
could be such a unique helper.

I'm the co-founder

of the Shear Haven
YWCA initiative.

We educate
beauty professionals

about the signs
of domestic violence

and how to respond safely
and appropriately,

and how not to respond.

Our instinct,

caring for the person
that they're with,

is you should just leave.

And that could be potentially
really dangerous advice.

We know that directing
someone to resources

could be the key

to a life-and-death situation.

The education is a free
20-minute online training.

To date, we've reached
over 135,000 people

in over 125 countries
with this education.

That's remarkable. [chuckles]

[Jane] No, it's amazing.

You do spend a lot of time
with your hairstylists.

They are like therapists,
almost like hair-apists.

I spend a lot of time
with mine.

Sometimes.

[Jane] And that's a place
where your abuser

probably won't be there
with you, right?

And I've heard all sorts
of different ways

that people are getting
information in lipstick tubes.

No More itself is part

-of an app
called Bright Sky...
-Mm-hmm.

which masks as a weather app,

but it's really all sorts
of information

around domestic violence.

Abusers are limited

-only by their
own imagination...
-Mmm.

...so we have to help women

and be imaginative in how
we find ways to help them.

Be a little creative.

-100%.
-Yeah.

Jane, thank you so much
for joining me,

and thank you so much

for the important work
that you're doing.

-Thank you for having me.
-Yeah.

ID and No More encourage

viewers to visit
noexcuseforabuse.com

and read the harrowing
and triumphant stories

of survival and perseverance.

I'm Sunny Hostin.

Thanks for joining me.