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These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated: 1 00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:41,720 -Hello. -Hello, my friend. 2 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:45,080 Can we start? 3 00:00:45,160 --> 00:00:46,160 Yes. 4 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:53,000 In the early 1950s, you discovered an IDF officer was acting as a double agent. 5 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:56,600 - You mean Alexander Israeli. - Exactly. 6 00:00:57,640 --> 00:00:59,720 Can you tell us what became of him? 7 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:06,280 Alexander, who was a captain in the Israeli Air Force, 8 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:14,000 contacted the Egyptian embassy in Rome, 9 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:17,760 and reached an agreement with them 10 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:20,600 to supply them with documents 11 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:22,720 about the IDF and the Air Force. 12 00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:25,400 In exchange, 13 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:27,080 he'd... 14 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:29,720 receive money. 15 00:01:31,320 --> 00:01:35,880 The moment we found out, we used a trick to find him, 16 00:01:35,960 --> 00:01:42,000 then got him into a car in Paris, driven by one of our guys, 17 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:44,120 and from there 18 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:47,760 we put him on a plane to Israel. 19 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:54,400 They gave him a shot of something in order to put him under, 20 00:01:54,480 --> 00:01:57,200 and it killed him. 21 00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:00,400 And then? Was there panic? 22 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:03,000 There wasn't any panic. 23 00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:06,480 Throughout my work at the Mossad, 24 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:09,600 I don't recall 25 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:12,400 anything resembling panic. 26 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:16,080 Weren't you ever worried about the whole story blowing up in your faces? 27 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:19,160 Certainly. Look, 28 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:21,800 if the story had been made public, 29 00:02:21,880 --> 00:02:27,400 our whole network of agents in Egypt would have been exposed. 30 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:33,680 So the decision was made, justifiably, to keep it a secret, 31 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:36,080 and to disappear the body. 32 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:39,600 So what did you do with the body? 33 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:42,320 What did they do with the body? 34 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:44,160 In the end, 35 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:46,200 they threw it into the sea. 36 00:02:47,920 --> 00:02:51,800 You simply opened the hatch and threw him into the sea? 37 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:54,000 Exactly. Yes. 38 00:02:57,360 --> 00:02:59,680 And when you look back on it today, 39 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:03,920 - aren't you bothered by... - You think it should bother me? 40 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:10,160 At the time, nothing done in the name of completing my mission bothered me. 41 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:12,760 But you could have just buried him, 42 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:16,800 and not reported that he'd been detained and then buried. 43 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:21,000 That's... a tactical consideration. 44 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:23,560 As they say in Yiddish, 45 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:28,480 "Could've gone this way, could've gone that way." 46 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:21,680 This thing doesn't shoot, I hope. 47 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:35,800 The hit squad, which came from abroad, arrived in Tunis yesterday. 48 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:38,880 When "The Engineer,� Mohammad Al-Zawiri, arrived, 49 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:42,800 they approached him and shot him several times at point-blank range. 50 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:47,840 The Tunisian media claims that "The Engineer" had deep connections 51 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:49,640 to the military wing of Hamas. 52 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:52,680 There's talk of a Tunisian journalist who interviewed him, 53 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:55,680 spoke with him, shortly before his assassination, 54 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:58,600 and later continued on to the airport. 55 00:04:58,840 --> 00:05:02,920 UNDERCOVER: JUST LIKE IN THE MOVIES 56 00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:08,520 Interesting, no? 57 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:10,480 Routine. 58 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:12,120 - Like in the movies. - What? 59 00:05:12,840 --> 00:05:15,120 Maybe we're also part of a front 60 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:18,600 for a Mossad operation that we have no idea about. 61 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:22,400 Even worse: Maybe you're a front for Iranian intelligence. 62 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:24,640 Maybe you're about to assassinate me. 63 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:25,880 It's impossible to know. 64 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:27,320 You never know. 65 00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:29,120 It's a dirty business. 66 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:35,640 ...Assassination of a leading Irani nuclear scientist... 67 00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:39,280 The Mossad's special overseas assassinations unit... 68 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:43,080 - "Kidon". - Yes. They're behind this. 69 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:47,600 The assassination of Mahmoud Al-Mabhouh, a crime the police are pinning squarely 70 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:50,400 on the Israeli intelligence agency, Mossad. 71 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:52,720 In the international media, 72 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:56,520 the Mossad's image has been that of Murder, Inc. 73 00:05:56,920 --> 00:05:58,320 Mr. Minister, one comment on Mossad. 74 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:03,040 I think that you saw too many movies about the James Bond, 75 00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:08,720 and I prefer you to see more movies. 76 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:13,320 Is it just an image, or is it the truth? 77 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:16,880 I agree with you that the Mossad's image 78 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:19,520 has been built up this way over the years. 79 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:22,320 That's reality. There's nothing to... 80 00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:25,080 there's nothing to be said about it, 81 00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:29,840 but it's a marginal part of Mossad's work. 82 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:35,120 At what point is the decision made to use this tool of assassination? 83 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:36,720 Look, if a terrorist organization 84 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:39,920 wants to carry out attacks here, 85 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:45,920 you could start a conventional war of one kind or another, 86 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:49,600 and reach their bases, and fight them face-to-face, 87 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:51,520 I'm exaggerating on purpose, 88 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:54,920 and ultimately defeat them, 89 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:57,080 or you could deal with them differently. 90 00:06:57,160 --> 00:07:01,720 You could make sure that part of its leadership becomes inactive. 91 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:04,680 You can deal with it by... 92 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:08,640 gathering information about things that are happening there. 93 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:11,480 You can deal with it using intelligence or covert methods. 94 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:13,920 That's the purpose of Mossad. 95 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:16,400 "By wise counsel thou shalt make thy war." 96 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:19,440 Now, our image... 97 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:24,720 Do you think this "Murder, Inc." image has helped you in the Middle East? 98 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:27,120 I do, yes. In general, yes. 99 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:30,800 The long arm of Israel can reach anywhere 100 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:34,600 it thinks it needs to go, and... 101 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:36,600 It's a matter of image, but it's also true. 102 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:41,240 Let's put it this way: The image isn't far from reality, 103 00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:43,680 and sometimes reality is stranger than fiction. 104 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:48,040 And by saying that, I've contributed to the image. 105 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:51,720 Okay. 106 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:55,120 So when does Mossad begin to be seen 107 00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:56,680 as an all-powerful organization? 108 00:07:57,640 --> 00:07:58,920 Adolf Eichmann is captured. 109 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:02,480 One of the worst monsters of all time is now in Jewish hands. 110 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:10,280 Suddenly, in 1960, Ben-Gurion gets up to speak at the Knesset and says, 111 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:13,920 "We've captured the Nazi criminal, on the other side of the world, 112 00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:16,240 "and brought him to Israel to stand trial." 113 00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:18,800 People around the world were shocked. 114 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:20,840 They said: "Wow, what an organization. What capabilities." 115 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:23,720 Ladies and gentlemen, 116 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:27,320 before you stands the destroyer of a people, 117 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:29,320 an enemy of the human race. 118 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:35,000 When you left for Buenos Aires to capture Eichmann, 119 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:38,280 did you feel that you were leaving on a historical mission? 120 00:08:38,680 --> 00:08:40,400 Certainly, yes. 121 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:47,400 Look, we staked out his house. 122 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:52,320 I walked up and said to him, in Spanish, 123 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:54,920 "Un momentito, Sen�r", 124 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:57,680 and subdued him with a chokehold. 125 00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:02,400 Then we put him into the car. 126 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:09,320 The man stayed silent the whole trip. 127 00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:15,400 We arrived at a room we'd prepared for him, 128 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:19,320 and the first question was: "What's your name?" 129 00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:23,120 He replied: "Ricardo Klement." 130 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:27,080 He'd been living in Argentina as Ricardo Klement. 131 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:32,520 Then we asked: "What's your SS number?" 132 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:36,720 And here, he provided his precise SS number. 133 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:40,880 "And now, what's your name?" 134 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:43,240 And then he said: "Adolf Eichmann." 135 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:48,120 And a few seconds later, he said, 136 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:50,680 "I'd like a drink, 137 00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:54,680 "and if you've got any red wine, I'd like some red wine." 138 00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:57,520 We didn't have any red wine. 139 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:01,320 Did you, at any point, think about killing him? 140 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:03,120 Never. 141 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:07,720 Our orders were unambiguous: 142 00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:10,720 "Do whatever you can to bring him back alive." 143 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:18,520 Didn't you feel any sense of vengeance? 144 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:20,000 No, I didn't. 145 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:23,480 I didn't feel vindictive, 146 00:10:23,560 --> 00:10:26,120 I felt proud of our ability. 147 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:31,080 What did this do for Mossad, PR-wise? 148 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:37,360 There's no doubt that the moment it was made public, 149 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:40,200 it resonated. 150 00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:44,040 I can only say that... 151 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:49,880 I don't think the Mossad, at that time, was interested in PR. 152 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:52,520 It was a unit, that is... 153 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:54,880 an isolated entity, 154 00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:58,400 that was preoccupied with more important matters. 155 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:03,040 Colonel Nasser holds a parade, 156 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:05,680 and it seemed clear that the whole parade was designed 157 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:08,280 to impress the world with Egypt's military strength. 158 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:14,040 Nasser and peace have never coexisted. 159 00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:18,000 We think that Nasser is the enemy of peace with Israel. 160 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:22,920 As he himself has said: "A river of blood and a sea of fire." 161 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:24,800 I think we must take him at his word. 162 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:30,200 We're talking about the year 1960. 163 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:32,520 The State of Israel was 10 years old. 164 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:36,720 We'd already been through two wars, 165 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:42,400 and we all knew that Nasser was preparing the next war. 166 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:49,440 The Egyptians recruited some 100 German scientists, 167 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:55,400 some working in Germany, but most in Egypt. 168 00:11:56,520 --> 00:12:02,800 A German unit in Egypt was developing long-range missiles, 169 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:07,280 capable of reaching any point in Israel. 170 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:08,720 What do we do about it? 171 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:16,640 When I suggested recruiting Skorzeny, 172 00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:19,880 to the head of operations, he said: 173 00:12:20,560 --> 00:12:25,920 "May a hair sprout from the palm of my hand if you manage to do it." 174 00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:33,400 Colonel Otto Skorzeny was the most daring commando the Nazi war machine produced. 175 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:37,240 He was once considered the most dangerous man in Europe. 176 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:42,520 Wasn't he one of the officers closest to Hitler? 177 00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:47,800 Yes. He was in charge of the German army�s commandos. 178 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:50,040 He was... 179 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:52,120 a great military man. 180 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:55,640 Il Duce is free, people are happy... 181 00:12:57,080 --> 00:13:00,120 So while you're chasing former Nazis all over the world, 182 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:03,400 you recruit an ex-Nazi officer into Mossad's service? 183 00:13:03,520 --> 00:13:06,240 It was a positive step, which helped us 184 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:09,720 reach every technician, and every... 185 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:13,840 German official in Egypt. 186 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:22,000 Herr Skorzeny, you must have been approached since the war by other nations, 187 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:26,040 to indulge in military activities of the kind you indulged in during the war. 188 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:29,840 - Is this correct? - Yes... Yes, exactly. 189 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:31,400 What did they want you to do? 190 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:34,080 Oh, some special work. 191 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:38,920 How did you manage to recruit such a high-ranking Nazi officer? 192 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:45,880 The idea was to offer Skorzeny freedom from fear. 193 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:50,680 This court sentences Adolf Eichmann to death. 194 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:53,240 Eichmann was hanged. 195 00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:56,720 No ex-Nazi, anywhere in the world, 196 00:13:57,120 --> 00:14:00,920 could know whether or not he was a target. 197 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:05,000 You essentially promised not to kill him. 198 00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:07,400 Something like that, yes. 199 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:10,200 We said we wouldn't touch him. 200 00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:13,120 On the contrary, we'd protect him. 201 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:17,800 As you probably know, there have been some recent news stories 202 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:22,240 that the people who kidnapped Eichmann are also looking for you. 203 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:25,720 They can come, and I will receive them duly. 204 00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:29,120 - How do you mean, duly? - Oh, how they deserve it. 205 00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:32,320 Didn't it frighten you? 206 00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:37,000 Cooperating with a war-scarred Nazi criminal? 207 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:38,400 I've got scars of my own. 208 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:43,720 Multiple scars. 209 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:50,640 Suppose the Israelis came after you. Would you be captured alive? 210 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:57,040 If, for instance, they get me during my sleep, I couldn't hinder them. 211 00:14:57,120 --> 00:15:00,080 But if I would stay alive, that's another question. 212 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:03,640 - You don't think you would stay alive? - It depends. 213 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:07,880 Skorzeny provided information and... 214 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:11,680 took part in intimidating the scientists. 215 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:15,680 It started with anonymous letters and telephone calls 216 00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:18,040 to the scientists themselves, and their families. 217 00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:26,280 A letter bomb was sent to one scientists' address in Cairo, 218 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:29,320 and it blinded his secretary, 219 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:30,320 but the scientist was unharmed. 220 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:33,920 In southern Germany, Kleinwaechter... 221 00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:36,680 they tried to assassinate him, and failed. 222 00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:39,720 One of the heads of the program, Krug, 223 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:42,040 left his office one day and never came back. 224 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:43,640 WAS KIDNAPED AND IS DEAD 225 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:46,040 In terms of intelligence work, there's nothing out of the ordinary here. 226 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:47,720 The mafia works exactly the same way 227 00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:50,320 when it wants to take over a certain part of the city, 228 00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:52,040 and take over the prostitution racket, 229 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:53,320 or the drug trade. 230 00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:57,480 By January 1965, 231 00:15:57,560 --> 00:16:04,240 there wasn't a single German scientist or engineer left in Egypt. 232 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:16,120 You know, his friends had no idea he'd betrayed them. 233 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:19,720 At his funeral, you can see them giving Nazi salutes. 234 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:23,000 - Really? - Yes, it's on YouTube. 235 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:25,320 Okay, I'll take a look. 236 00:16:25,760 --> 00:16:27,680 Skorzeny, YouTube. 237 00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:58,640 Can you take us back to the moment when you first heard 238 00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:01,920 about the attack on the Israeli athletes in Munich? 239 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:08,200 This is a news flash from the Olympic village in Munich where early this morning 240 00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:12,240 armed Palestinian guerrillas raided the sleeping quarters of the Israeli team. 241 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:14,840 The gunmen shot dead two Israelis, 242 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:19,120 and are now holding twenty athletes and six officials as hostages. 243 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:30,120 Before I flew there, the Germans stated unambiguously that 244 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:36,920 there was no way Israeli soldiers would be involved in rescuing the athletes. 245 00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:43,000 Golda said to me: "Zvika, I'm asking you, 246 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:45,920 I'm asking you to go, 247 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:50,040 so that at the very least we'll know what happened there." 248 00:17:53,120 --> 00:17:54,720 When I arrived, 249 00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:58,520 the German police ignored me. 250 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:02,920 I asked them: "Tell me, what are you doing?" 251 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:04,520 They didn't say a word to me. 252 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:08,600 "We don't have to answer to you. 253 00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:11,800 We're handling their rescue." 254 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:17,480 We stood along the path that led 255 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:22,040 from the building where, the athletes were being held, 256 00:18:22,120 --> 00:18:25,040 to the helicopter pad. 257 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:29,200 On both sides stood 258 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:32,120 tens of thousands of people. 259 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:39,680 And then I saw... 260 00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:43,920 a sight that I will never forget. 261 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:49,720 The athletes, 262 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:52,040 bound, hand and foot, to one another, 263 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:55,880 dragging themselves along. 264 00:18:56,760 --> 00:19:01,080 Next to them, the Arabs, walking along the path. 265 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:03,320 Absolute silence. 266 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:08,800 And I looked upon a changed Germany. 267 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:17,000 Where's the German army? 268 00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:21,400 What's going on here? 269 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:28,720 I know they're heading up that hill, and that I'll ride in one of the helicopters. 270 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:34,000 They wouldn't let me board the helicopter, the German police. 271 00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:36,240 They didn't want me there. 272 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:40,280 I pushed through... and got on the helicopter. 273 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:07,840 I'm lying next to a German sniper. 274 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:10,040 They shot using rifles... 275 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:13,120 old German rifles. 276 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:15,920 No sniper scopes, nothing. 277 00:20:19,120 --> 00:20:21,520 It was heartbreaking, 278 00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:24,280 because they threw a phosphorus grenade at the helicopter, 279 00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:27,920 and the helicopter caught fire. 280 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:34,840 Of all the people... 281 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:36,400 no one was left alive. 282 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:43,320 It was a sight 283 00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:48,120 I will never forget, as long as I live. 284 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:51,640 Germany... 285 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:55,280 let them say whatever they will about Germany. 286 00:20:57,280 --> 00:20:59,480 That's not what I saw. 287 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:02,800 One generation isn't enough. 288 00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:13,520 Prime Minister, if the world governments do nothing, what will you do? 289 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:15,960 - We'll have to protect ourselves. - How? 290 00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:19,840 I don't know. 291 00:21:20,360 --> 00:21:23,320 I'll tell you honestly. If I did know what we were going to do, 292 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:25,080 I don't think I would tell you. 293 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:30,040 How did you intend to deal with terrorist organizations? 294 00:21:30,120 --> 00:21:31,240 Look, 295 00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:32,680 in every war, 296 00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:36,000 there's intelligence, 297 00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:38,920 there's self-defense, 298 00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:41,200 and preventative measures. 299 00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:45,200 By "preventative measures", do you mean targeted killings? 300 00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:48,640 - Listen... - You received an order from Golda 301 00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:52,480 to assassinate the terrorist leaders who carried out the Munich massacre. 302 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:54,400 Where did you hear that? 303 00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:57,200 It's been reported. It's been spoken about. 304 00:21:57,280 --> 00:21:58,160 What? 305 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:01,880 - Israel didn't carry out assassinations? - I don't... where did you... 306 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:04,800 The papers said so. 307 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:08,920 Golda didn't order me. 308 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:12,520 Why? 309 00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:15,000 Because I didn't need to be ordered. 310 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:23,480 We had to prevent casualties, 311 00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:26,840 and save Israeli lives and assets, 312 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:29,720 wherever they may be. 313 00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:33,720 In some instances, 314 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:40,400 we knew about certain enemy activities, 315 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:44,320 and when we had no other choice, 316 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:49,840 we had to make sure that this viper wouldn�t bite us. 317 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:56,880 I warned them, and I told my brothers: "Be careful! 318 00:22:56,960 --> 00:23:03,400 "The Mossad will hunt us down one by one." 319 00:23:04,360 --> 00:23:08,840 Suddenly, Palestinian leaders started meeting unnatural deaths. 320 00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:12,840 One Palestinian blew up in his bed in Nicosia. 321 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:16,520 Another Palestinian's car blew up. 322 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:20,600 You live peacefully in France. Does that mean that you don't fear for your life? 323 00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:23,000 No, I do not, 324 00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:26,400 but I prefer not to tempt the Devil. 325 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:32,880 Numerous Palestinians, of various ranks, had their lives cut short, 326 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:36,280 and everyone quickly understood that this was a coordinated Israeli operation. 327 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:41,920 The leaders of these murderers, 328 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:45,120 either fled Europe, 329 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:49,600 or died there.*** 330 00:23:55,320 --> 00:24:01,120 The Palestinian revolution continues to take strong, solid and stable strides 331 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:03,640 towards the realization of its ultimate goal: 332 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:08,920 the establishment of a democratic Palestinian state on Palestinian land. 333 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:17,920 You served in Europe before Munich. 334 00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:22,800 Couldn't you tell that Palestinian terror cells were operating there? 335 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:27,640 Look, I was head of the Europe division. 336 00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:30,920 The Palestinian movement 337 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:36,200 was recruiting students into Fatah, 338 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:43,920 and I learned that they were preparing to create violent cells, 339 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:47,600 to carry out terror attacks against Jews, 340 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:50,720 from among the student population. 341 00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:57,200 And among them were Abu Jihad and Yasser, and I suggested: 342 00:24:57,280 --> 00:24:59,880 "Let's kill this thing in its infancy." 343 00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:03,120 I said: "Let's take care of these guys. 344 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:06,320 If you like, individually. 345 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:08,840 If you like, all at once." 346 00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:12,040 And the answer was "No.� 347 00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:14,840 What do you mean by "individually" and "all at once?" 348 00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:17,920 "Individually" is where I pick off one person. 349 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:25,080 "All at once" is when I know they'll all be in a room together and I kill them all. 350 00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:28,600 How do you kill them all? 351 00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:32,120 - From a technical standpoint? - Yes. 352 00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:35,320 Very simple. 353 00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:38,400 - What, you enter with guns blazing? - You enter, 354 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:42,720 and shoot whoever you think needs to be shot. 355 00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:45,320 And what about a bomb? 356 00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:49,680 - Even I didn't want to do that. - Why not? 357 00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:54,120 Because it would kill innocent people. 358 00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:58,240 You don't kill unrelated parties. 359 00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:01,120 You kill your adversaries, 360 00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:04,720 your enemies, because by killing them, 361 00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:07,680 you're saving the lives of others. That's the rule. 362 00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:26,840 Do you believe that assassinations have proven to be an effective tool? 363 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:31,520 Each instance needs to be examined on its own merits, 364 00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:33,520 but, in general, it's an effective tool. 365 00:26:34,120 --> 00:26:36,080 So you support this policy of assassinations? 366 00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:39,400 I wouldn't call it �a policy of assassinations." 367 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:42,680 I call it "Targeting terrorists, 368 00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:46,120 both low- and high-ranking." 369 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:49,920 It's one of the tools, alongside many, many others, 370 00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:53,600 that should be used in our war on terror. 371 00:26:55,120 --> 00:27:00,920 What about targeting terrorist leaders, or heads of state? 372 00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:04,920 I'll give you my personal opinion: 373 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:08,040 Terrorist leaders, yes. 374 00:27:08,120 --> 00:27:09,920 Heads of state, no. 375 00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:14,720 Did you think Khaled Mashaal was an important enough figure 376 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:17,800 to justify an assassination attempt against him? 377 00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:19,720 People were wrong about Mashaal then, 378 00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:23,840 that he wasn't senior enough to be bothered with at all. 379 00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:29,720 As he was then, so he is now: the leader of Hamas. 380 00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:41,400 In the space of a month, in Jerusalem, 381 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:44,120 there were two attacks which left many dead, 382 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:47,080 and dozens injured. 383 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:52,480 Men, women, and children, small children, were murdered. 384 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:57,120 As prime minister, it's my responsibility 385 00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:01,920 to do everything in my power to fight this terrorist evil. 386 00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:06,320 And we, the intelligence agencies, were asked 387 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:09,720 to suggest ways of dealing with Hamas. 388 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:14,600 Weren't you afraid that if something went wrong, 389 00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:18,520 it could complicate Israel's relationship with King Hussein? 390 00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:19,720 Yes, certainly, 391 00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:23,480 which is why, at first, I didn't initiate 392 00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:26,680 an operation there, 393 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:29,680 but rather, thousands of kilometers away from Jordan, 394 00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:31,880 and not targeting Khaled Mashaal. 395 00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:33,640 Why? 396 00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:35,200 Because of the sensitivity. 397 00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:37,880 The operation went ahead. 398 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:40,400 Did you intend to assassinate someone else? 399 00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:42,320 The combatants were already in place. 400 00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:45,040 Then, one Friday, 401 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:48,720 the Defense Minister and Director of Shin Bet went to see the Prime Minister, 402 00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:54,320 and said, "Why are we sending the Mossad's fine operatives over there? 403 00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:58,720 Why not to Jordan, the place where all this evil originates?" 404 00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:01,600 And the Prime Minister said: "Fine, to Jordan." 405 00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:06,680 I was exploding with rage. I said: "How can this be? 406 00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:11,120 They're deciding on a Mossad mission without me even... 407 00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:14,480 in the room? Without consulting me? 408 00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:17,320 What is the meaning of this? It's just not done." 409 00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:19,920 I find the Prime Minister, and I talk to him. 410 00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:22,920 And I raise my voice, too. 411 00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:29,320 I spent the weekend finding out if we were even able to do it. 412 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:30,920 The responsibility was mine, 413 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:33,120 because finally, after looking into it, I said: 414 00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:35,480 "It's feasible, and they can do it." 415 00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:46,320 Was it your first time on an assassination mission? 416 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:50,240 I won't go into my operational past, 417 00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:56,120 but I will note that the Mashaal mission was ten years into my service 418 00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:58,920 in Mossad's operations unit. 419 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:05,080 It's common for an intelligence officer to join the unit on its mission. 420 00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:13,720 How do you head out on a mission aimed at assassinating a human being? 421 00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:17,680 I had... 422 00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:18,600 Let me put it differently, 423 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:23,120 I was completely at peace with the decision to assassinate Mashaal. 424 00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:30,720 The Prime Minister's order was to carry it out quietly, 425 00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:35,400 because he knew that a conspicuous operation in Amman, 426 00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:37,920 such as placing a bomb in Mashaal's car, 427 00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:41,720 or shooting him with a sniper rifle from a distance, 428 00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:44,400 or shooting him with a handgun at close range, 429 00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:49,200 would lead to a huge crisis in Israeli-Jordanian relations, 430 00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:51,920 and so he ordered us to carry out a quiet operation, 431 00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:54,840 an operation that would go undetected. 432 00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:02,840 We developed a chemical which, upon coming into contact with a person's skin, 433 00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:05,680 several hours later, that person becomes ill, 434 00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:07,880 passes out, and expires. 435 00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:13,600 The unit experimented on unsuspecting people in the street. 436 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:16,920 Two people approach the subject from behind. 437 00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:21,920 One sprays him, and the other shakes and opens a cola can, 438 00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:25,400 causing the can's contents to spray all over. 439 00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:26,720 The person who was sprayed, 440 00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:29,680 when he turns around, just sees a shaken up can of cola, 441 00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:31,920 and thinks that's what sprayed him. 442 00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:39,520 I came to Jordan carrying the antidote with me, 443 00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:43,920 so that if one of our guys were exposed to the poison intended for Mashaal, 444 00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:46,920 he could find me and get the antidote. 445 00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:51,280 That morning, I was by the hotel pool. 446 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:55,600 Someone from the unit, who wasn't supposed to be there, showed up. 447 00:31:56,800 --> 00:32:00,320 I got up and we stepped aside, and this person said: 448 00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:02,040 "Problems." 449 00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:05,240 Last Thursday, near the Hamas offices in Amman. 450 00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:07,880 Khaled Mashaal is walking with his sons and a bodyguard. 451 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:11,640 A Hyundai pulls up to them, and two men emerge. 452 00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:15,080 They approach Mashaal, press a device against his head, and escape. 453 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:17,840 Mashaal collapses, and his bodyguard hails a cab 454 00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:19,320 and gives chase. 455 00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:26,600 How did you feel when you heard the operation had gone wrong? 456 00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:28,800 I can explain it with one word, 457 00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:29,720 two words: 458 00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:31,520 Like shit. 459 00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:36,920 After a few minutes' drive, the assassins try to switch cars, 460 00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:39,120 but when they get out of their car, 461 00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:43,320 Mashaal's bodyguard attacks them, and the Jordanian police arrives. 462 00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:45,800 Mashaal is taken to the hospital in critical condition. 463 00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:52,600 We think the Mossad intelligence service 464 00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:57,480 is behind of this failed assassination attempt. 465 00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:05,120 There can be no doubt that such moves are wholly unacceptable. 466 00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:06,880 Hussein said 467 00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:10,520 that if Mashaal dies, he'll have a Palestinian uprising on his hands, 468 00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:13,840 and he'll have no choice but to execute the two combatants. 469 00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:17,720 So they decided to make a deal with Hussein: 470 00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:20,680 We'd save Mashaal's life, 471 00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:22,400 using the antidote, 472 00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:25,480 and the two captured combatants would be released. 473 00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:31,080 Their attempt failed, their cards have been exposed, 474 00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:35,320 and they are the big losers in all of the recent events. 475 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:38,920 I think there was... 476 00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:40,520 something very positive there, 477 00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:44,040 but which led to a serious mishap, and that was excessive motivation. 478 00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:47,360 Because my briefing was, 479 00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:51,520 "If there's anyone near Mashaal, no matter who, 480 00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:52,720 do not act." 481 00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:56,520 And Mashaal, unexpectedly, 482 00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:59,000 came out with his driver and two children. 483 00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:01,120 And they went ahead anyway. 484 00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:11,920 Do you think the attempt to assassinate Mashaal, in retrospect, 485 00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:13,480 was worth the risk? 486 00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:15,640 Let me put it another way. 487 00:34:15,720 --> 00:34:20,880 There are very few operations where, in hindsight, if something went wrong, 488 00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:23,600 you can say they were worth it. 489 00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:26,240 When you look at... 490 00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:29,240 the contribution of... 491 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:33,640 a department, a Mossad hit squad, 492 00:34:33,720 --> 00:34:35,840 you don't base it on one operation. 493 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:37,720 You look at 300. 494 00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:40,600 One of them might go wrong along the way, 495 00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:42,720 and then you might ask, "What for?" 496 00:34:43,240 --> 00:34:45,920 But of course, that's not the point. It's one out of 300. 497 00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:48,880 If 200 of 300 are successful, 498 00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:50,480 we'll have hit our goal. 499 00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:59,320 How do you determine whether an assassination is worth the risk? 500 00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:01,920 It's a very practical consideration. 501 00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:04,640 First of all, you ask: What are you doing this for? 502 00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:07,920 What is the intention, exactly? There may be many. 503 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:11,040 It could be disrupting something already underway, 504 00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:13,120 or retaliation, 505 00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:17,200 or whatever else. You have your intentions. 506 00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:19,880 - Revenge? - That too, certainly. 507 00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:25,960 Lebanon's Hezbollah says Israel assassinated one of its top leaders. 508 00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:28,720 Imad Mughniyeh, one of the group's top military commanders, 509 00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:31,520 died in a car bombing in Syria. 510 00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:35,280 When Imad Mughniyeh met his demise, 511 00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:40,200 the popping of champagne corks could be heard all around the world. 512 00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:45,240 He was among the first to use truck bombs. 513 00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:48,400 His attack on the American Marine barracks in Beirut, 514 00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:50,000 the planes he'd hijacked... 515 00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:52,400 There's the famous picture of him holding a gun 516 00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:55,880 to the head of a TWA pilot whose plane he hijacked to Damascus. 517 00:35:57,320 --> 00:35:59,600 The Americans wanted him, the French wanted him, 518 00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:02,080 the Saudis wanted him, the Egyptians wanted him, 519 00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:04,480 the Kuwaitis wanted him, and so did we. 520 00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:09,600 You have murdered Hajj Imad 521 00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:13,280 outside the natural battle arena. 522 00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:20,280 Zionists, if you want this kind of open war 523 00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:26,800 then let the whole world hear, let there be open war! 524 00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:31,680 Death to Israel! 525 00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:35,240 When you assassinate someone, 526 00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:37,600 aren't you opening a Pandora's box? 527 00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:40,480 You assassinate someone, and he kills one of yours, 528 00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:41,840 and you kill one of his, 529 00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:45,240 - and he kills one of yours... - I don't accept this argument. 530 00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:47,400 It's an incorrect, defeatist argument. 531 00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:51,320 The one opening Pandora's box is the first suicide bomber. 532 00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:55,800 Did they expect us to forget? To say: "Okay, so you killed some people, 533 00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:59,120 but we'll forgive and forget, 534 00:36:59,240 --> 00:37:02,000 just so you don't get mad at us again." 535 00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:04,600 Is that a better way, in your opinion? 536 00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:07,520 Is that even possible? 537 00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:12,120 The need to retaliate is understandable, 538 00:37:12,240 --> 00:37:15,040 but what kind of a difference can it make in the long run? 539 00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:19,720 Has it helped Israel in the long run? 540 00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:20,920 Not really. 541 00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:23,080 Not really. 542 00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:28,960 But it did create... For the terrorist decision-makers, 543 00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:30,920 it gave them pause. 544 00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:35,520 A terrorist who's on the run is completely different from a terrorist who isn't. 545 00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:39,720 Look at Hassan Nasrallah. 546 00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:42,840 He's been living in a bunker for quite some time. 547 00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:47,080 Is this significant in terms of Israel's deterrence 548 00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:50,120 against Hezbollah, yes or no? I don't know the answer. 549 00:37:50,240 --> 00:37:53,320 The fact is that for the past few years, 550 00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:57,000 there's been no direct Hezbollah activity against the State of Israel. 551 00:37:58,240 --> 00:38:02,000 Did the premature death of Sheikh Ahmad Yassin 552 00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:05,000 benefit the State of Israel, yes or no? 553 00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:06,720 I think it did. 554 00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:09,280 I think that at the end of the day, his successors, 555 00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:11,280 before sending out suicide bombers, 556 00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:15,320 thought and knew that if they got involved in such an act, 557 00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:16,480 they'd have to pay a price. 558 00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:19,120 In war, both sides get hurt. 559 00:38:19,240 --> 00:38:24,320 One side gets hurt when a suicide bomber blows up a bus in Tel Aviv, 560 00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:27,400 and the other gets hurt when a building collapses on him in Gaza. 561 00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:31,000 Is that what I'd like to see in the next life, 562 00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:34,640 where you'll be whatever you'll be? No, not at all. 563 00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:39,200 Is this what reality, unfortunately, 564 00:38:40,240 --> 00:38:42,120 forces us to deal with? Yes. 565 00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:56,400 In the cybernetic age, where everything's out in the open, 566 00:38:56,800 --> 00:39:00,120 how does this affect an intelligence organization like Mossad? 567 00:39:00,240 --> 00:39:02,720 Well, that's a professional question. 568 00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:04,880 I think that the modern world 569 00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:12,120 is one where the familiar rules of spycraft have changed. 570 00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:17,080 All of your work building your cover, all of your movements, 571 00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:19,320 have become much more complicated, more complex, 572 00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:21,240 even more dangerous, to a large extent. 573 00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:25,000 - For example, that thing in Dubai. - Yes. 574 00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:30,240 Where some intelligence organization left a lot of fingerprints. 575 00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:36,600 Was this a success or a failure for that organization? 576 00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:37,680 I don't know. 577 00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:43,240 A Hamas commander is murdered in his Dubai hotel room. 578 00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:46,320 Israel is under pressure to explain its involvement. 579 00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:48,320 What will be the international impact? 580 00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:52,400 What can you tell us about the assassination of Mabhouh? 581 00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:56,280 How can I comment on something Israel never claimed responsibility for? 582 00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:03,520 The security cameras at Dubai airport and at the hotel captured it all. 583 00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:05,720 Here we see Mabhouh entering the hotel. 584 00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:09,800 Two of the suspects, in tennis clothes, enter the elevator with him, 585 00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:13,240 and appear to follow him in order to find out his room number. 586 00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:18,080 Dubai Police claim that a crew of 11 European mercenaries, 587 00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:21,720 pictured here, carried out Mabhouh's assassination. 588 00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:27,840 It's rather strange that none of them, having been filmed by so many cameras... 589 00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:31,280 None of them was ever caught. 590 00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:33,080 Looks like... 591 00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:35,320 whoever planned it did a good enough job 592 00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:37,640 and took that into account. 593 00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:42,120 It excites the imagination, no? 594 00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:46,920 I think it�s clear that whoever did the murder 595 00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:50,520 didn�t really mind being seen on CCTV. 596 00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:57,320 They say the security cameras in Dubai were made by an Israeli company. 597 00:40:57,480 --> 00:40:59,520 Could be, I don't know. 598 00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:03,400 Is this a success or a failure, when an operation like this is exposed? 599 00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:04,920 You tell me. 600 00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:08,240 You tell me. 601 00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:15,120 The political use of killing, 602 00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:17,000 is it moral in your eyes? 603 00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:20,280 In killing... Let's make a distinction. 604 00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:23,880 The political use of killing is what armies do. 605 00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:27,120 Do you have a problem with that? 606 00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:29,840 An army, by definition, 607 00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:33,800 is when you take young men and women, put them in uniform, 608 00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:35,520 teach them to kill, 609 00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:39,280 and say, "The day your country decides that, for political reasons, 610 00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:43,120 you have to kill your counterparts on the other side, go and do it." 611 00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:45,400 And they all say, �Yes.� 612 00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:46,680 And they do it. 613 00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:52,480 So, by that definition, that's what most countries do. 614 00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:56,400 The question is, under what conditions, and what are your objectives? 615 00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:59,520 I'm asking, does Israel have a set code? 616 00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:01,720 - Of what? - About the use of assassinations. 617 00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:04,240 - Ah, what they call "assassinations?" - Yes. 618 00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:07,320 Terrorists, and their leaders. 619 00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:09,720 Leaders are a separate case. 620 00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:12,040 On the face of it, on the positive side, 621 00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:15,720 you can say: If you're already going to take someone's life, 622 00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:19,920 target the ones responsible. Why should foot soldiers pay the price? 623 00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:22,920 It's also economical. Instead of killing an entire army, 624 00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:24,400 you take out the commander. 625 00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:25,920 But on the other hand, 626 00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:32,400 leaders are wary of ordering the assassination of heads of state, 627 00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:37,320 as this might also apply to them, and there is a sort of pact: 628 00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:40,120 "Don't do it to me, and I won't do it to you." 629 00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:42,400 What does Israel do? As we've seen, 630 00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:44,000 it draws a line. 631 00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:46,520 It doesn't do all it can. 632 00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:48,600 If we wanted to, we could 633 00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:50,640 kill leaders in the region. 634 00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:52,600 But in the same breath, 635 00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:55,120 if it's an existential matter, 636 00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:58,120 and if you think you need to target leaders, 637 00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:01,400 and if you're willing to pay the price, 638 00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:03,880 then this is also an option. 639 00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:08,400 Were you ever involved in deciding a leader's fate? 640 00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:10,840 Yes... OK. 641 00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:12,680 Here I can tell you 642 00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:15,400 about an uneasy feeling that haunts me to this day. 643 00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:25,280 January, 1979. 644 00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:30,240 Khomeini comes to power in Iran. 645 00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:35,040 In a month, he�ll be ruling the country, turning it into an Islamic Republic, 646 00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:40,120 but up until then, we were allied with the Shah's regime, 647 00:43:40,240 --> 00:43:43,320 and we were very close to the Shah and to Iranian intelligence. 648 00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:46,720 At that time, 649 00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:49,600 the director of Mossad called me and said, 650 00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:52,240 "You're going to head the Tehran branch." 651 00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:57,840 I basically went in order to see what was going on in Iran, 652 00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:02,080 because it was clear there were extremist underground currents, 653 00:44:03,240 --> 00:44:07,240 and you could say that neither the Shah nor Khomeini 654 00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:09,640 realized how quickly it would all fall into his hands. 655 00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:14,000 But at some point, when they began to feel the danger, 656 00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:19,880 someone important came to me and said: Put on a jacket and tie 657 00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:23,720 and come with me to meet the king of kings, 'Shahin Shah' 658 00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:27,200 and hear his request that the Mossad assassinate Khomeini." 659 00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:35,080 The request arrived by urgent telegram to the office of Haka, director of Mossad, 660 00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:37,720 and he called an urgent meeting. 661 00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:40,680 I was the intelligence officer on Iran. 662 00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:43,520 So Haka says: "We got a telegram from Geizi. 663 00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:46,640 They're asking us to kill Khomeini. What do you say?" 664 00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:48,840 Before I could answer, 665 00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:53,640 the guy sitting next to me, a veteran who had spent years in Iran, 666 00:44:53,720 --> 00:44:56,520 butts in and says: "Don't worry. 667 00:44:56,600 --> 00:44:58,520 Let Khomeini return to Tehran. 668 00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:02,520 The army and SAVAK won't let him rule. They'll kill him." 669 00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:05,920 Haka looks at me again, 670 00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:11,400 and I'm running scenarios through my head at breakneck speed. 671 00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:16,600 What happens if we succeed? What would the Americans say? 672 00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:19,720 And what about the French? And the Russians? 673 00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:23,400 What happens if we fail? And who is this Khomeini, anyway? 674 00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:25,600 What do we know about him? 675 00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:28,600 And after... 676 00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:34,200 thinking for a moment, I say to Haka: "I can't give you an answer. 677 00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:37,680 We don't know enough about Khomeini." 678 00:45:38,240 --> 00:45:40,880 And Haka says: "Okay, we're not doing it." 679 00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:46,600 I answer the guy: "Sorry, not in our wheelhouse. 680 00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:48,840 We're not the world police. 681 00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:51,320 It's your problem. Do as you see fit." 682 00:45:56,080 --> 00:45:58,720 A month later, Khomeini seized control of Iran. 683 00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:02,840 Looking back, 684 00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:05,120 my failure to make a decision 685 00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:06,840 haunts me to this day. 686 00:46:07,480 --> 00:46:10,240 If Yossi Alpher were sitting in front of Haka today, 687 00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:11,320 what would his answer be? 688 00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:17,680 In light of all that's happened with the Islamic regime In Iran 689 00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:20,320 since Khomeini came to power, 690 00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:23,520 and all the damage it's done in the Middle East, 691 00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:25,840 I would give a different answer. 692 00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:28,200 A few years ago, 693 00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:30,520 friends said to me, "What is this nonsense? 694 00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:33,120 If we had the chance to take out Hitler, 695 00:46:33,240 --> 00:46:34,840 before he came to power, 696 00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:38,080 would we also have said 'We're not the world police?�� 697 00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:41,720 I was left with my mouth open, unable to answer. 698 00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:43,840 I'll allow myself to philosophize a bit. 699 00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:46,240 Let's say we'd done it. 700 00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:48,800 Let's say we'd had a shot at assassinating Khomeini. 701 00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:53,480 Would the world, and Iran, have known what we'd saved them from? 702 00:46:56,480 --> 00:46:58,680 Rafi, three... 703 00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:05,080 In the First Lebanon War, 704 00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:07,880 the idea of assassinating Arafat was raised once again. 705 00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:10,600 This nation will not give up! 706 00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:13,840 Yes. Arik Sharon set up a team 707 00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:16,600 in order to assassinate Arafat. 708 00:47:17,520 --> 00:47:20,000 We actually went in, 709 00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:22,080 myself as well, 710 00:47:22,160 --> 00:47:26,480 to Yasser Arafat's headquarters. 711 00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:29,520 He escaped. 712 00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:33,680 It would have been easy, actually, because he was out in the open, 713 00:47:33,760 --> 00:47:36,640 but... it wasn't done. 714 00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:43,400 Do you, personally, think it was a mistake? 715 00:47:43,520 --> 00:47:45,720 Historically speaking, yes. 716 00:47:46,720 --> 00:47:47,800 Explain. 717 00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:51,160 Look... 718 00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:55,280 Had we assassinated Yasser Arafat at that time, and only him, 719 00:47:55,880 --> 00:48:01,280 a separation between us and the Palestinians could have been achieved, 720 00:48:01,360 --> 00:48:04,720 and I'm convinced that it's still achievable. 721 00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:08,480 Do you really think that assassinating a single person 722 00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:10,800 can change the course of history? 723 00:48:12,240 --> 00:48:13,520 Exactly. 724 00:48:15,400 --> 00:48:18,920 Like Rabin's murder, in contrast. 725 00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:28,520 So throughout your years of Mossad service, 726 00:48:28,600 --> 00:48:32,920 did you ever feel a pang of regret, 727 00:48:33,040 --> 00:48:38,280 where they wouldn't let you do something you felt was necessary? 728 00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:41,120 Look, 729 00:48:41,200 --> 00:48:44,000 if memory serves, I've never felt 730 00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:46,720 a pang of regret in my life. 59094

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