Original subtitles

hi everybody I'm Rick biato today I'm

introducing a legend and music

production Rick Rubin from co-founding

Death Jam records to producing iconic

albums for artists like Johnny Cash Red

Hot Chili Peppers beasty boy System of a

Down Tom Petty and rund DMC Rick Rubin

has shaped the sound of multiple

Generations across genres from hipop to

rock metal and Country he's also worked

with artists like Slayer Kanye West and

Adele showcasing his versatility and

genius his minimalistic approach and

deep focus on the artist's authentic

sound has earned him the reputation as

one of the most influential producers of

all time here's my interview Rick

welcome even though I'm at your

place it's great to be here thank you

for inviting me thank you for coming

great to see you we talked yesterday for

a bit and touched upon a little bit of

your beginning I asked you about playing

guitar for example or playing

instruments and I know that you've said

uh I don't really play instruments and

things like that but that's not entirely

true you started you played guitar as a

kid a bit I played punk rock guitar okay

power chords things like that yes enough

to go out and play gigs enough to go out

and play gigs but not enough to play

very well tell me a little bit about

your background how did you get into

music when did you know that you had

this gift for being a music producer I

didn't I never knew that uh

I first connected with music I want to

say it was about 3 years old it was um

The Beatles version of the Chuck Berry

song rock and roll

music and I can remember the feeling in

my body of dancing around hearing that

song and feeling like this is something

different even though I was three I knew

that that was different than other

things and have been in love with music

ever since did your parents encourage

any type of

um uh listening to music at home did

they each have their own style of music

that they like to listen to I wouldn't

say it was encouraged but I did it all

the time okay um I listen to music

pretty

constantly

self-directed um I took control of the

uh radio when we whenever we were in the

car with the family I would only listen

to the things that I want to listen to I

didn't rarely want to listen to what my

parents wanted to listen to

although my Dad loved Latin jazz so when

I did get to hear that and I think

hearing it when I heard it as young as I

was probably had a positive effect are

there recordings of your punk rock band

there are two I made a a 7

in and a

12in um recording of a band my really my

second band which was called hose

they're out of print I think they they

were maybe 500 copies of each uh but it

exists in the world you went to NYU 1981

mhm and what were you majoring in at the

time I started as a philosophy major I

was a philosophy major for two years and

then switched film and television so how

did you get connected to the music scene

in New York City what were you doing

were you going out and seeing F all the

time were you going to clubs what were

you tell tell me about that I went out

every night I would go to cbgbs and I

would go to Madison Square Garden so on

the same night I saw David Bowie at

Madison Square Garden and then later

that night the Bad Brains of cbgbs I

went to Dan atua pretty much every night

and there was an Eclectic group of

artists performing there on the first

floor and then on the second floor was

djed music so you could hear dance music

and then on the third floor there was a

third kind of music playing so you could

go from Flor to floor and hear a lot of

different music and I would go there all

the time New York was a New York City

was a very different place back then

than people when people go visit it now

or even 30 years ago it's very it's the

the 80s was a very different time there

talk talk about that about the the

diversity yeah it was it was um fairly

run down yes there were a lot of boarded

up buildings there were so so many

nightclubs and so many

even late night clubs and then after

hours clubs that you you could stay out

till the next day every day if you chose

to and a real wide variety of music from

real heavy disco

to at first you could only hear hip-hop

on occasion like um there was a a club

called N

Grill which was the only place downtown

where you could hear hip-hop music I

think it was Tuesday nights and um and

that was only so only once a week you

couldn't really hear hip-hop other than

that you could hear dance music pretty

much all the time and then they were

fairly regular punk rock or Rock shows

and I would go to the the rits and The

Peppermint Lounge both The Peppermint

Lounge Uptown and then The Peppermint

Lounge downtown when it moved I saw

Black Flag play at the Uptown Peppermint

Lounge I saw Africa bamban Africa

bambata and soul Sonic force in the

downtown Peppermint Lounge I saw so many

shows at the Ritz I saw everybody at the

Ritz do you think that because New York

was more rundown and musicians were able

to live in Manhattan and in New York

City in general that that there was a

lot more diversity and and intermixing

of of genres or just even the ability

you're talking about all these different

genres of music that you're able to go

see I wouldn't say it was purely music

it seemed like a lot of young artists of

different kinds lived in New York at

that

time Soho really was artist then yeah it

it isn't it isn't really anymore right

but it really was then and you had the

sense of um more of an artistic

Community how did you get involved with

starting your label starting Def Jam the

first rap record I made was called it's

yours with Tac and Jazzy J and that

happened because I I saw the treacherous

3 play at Negril treacherous 3 were my

favorite group of the rap groups I met

kol Modi who was the leader of the

treacherous 3 and asked him if we could

meet and the the reason I wanted to meet

was I would go to NE Grill every week I

love this music and I felt this energy

in this place but the records that you

could buy at that time didn't really

sound like that now there were probably

three treacherous three songs 12in

singles on the enjoy label that really

sounded like rap records but the

majority of the rap records that were

coming out which were few and far

between you know one or two a week maybe

singles no albums at this point in time

were made by professionals and the

professionals didn't know what rap was

so they made them sound more polished

and more like really R&B records Than

Rap records whereas if you went to a

club and you saw the DJ culture and you

saw the drum machines and the DJ culture

it was much more of a raw experimental

Music Live than the records showed so I

wanted to make a record first I wanted

to make a record with the treacherous 3

cuz they were my favorite group they'

already made three great records and now

they had signed to Sugar Hill which I

didn't know what that meant but they now

had records on Sugar Hill and they

stopped being great so and again I know

nothing about the music industry nothing

um all I know is I love this music I

meet a guy in my favorite band who made

great music and now he's making not as

good music right and I want to say let's

try doing this together and he says I

can't I'm signed Sugar Hill okay and I

didn't I didn't even know what it meant

and he said but if you want to make a

record talk to Special K another member

of the treacherous 3

Kevin his

brother is T Rock and his brother is not

signed and he's really good so that's

how I met til Rock and then um we

recorded this song it's yours

and I had a drum machine that I borrowed

from there was a band uh a punk rock

band called The

speedies and Eric the guitar player in

speedies lived in my dorm room and I

borrowed his drum machine

what kind of drum machine was that an

808 okay so I had that in my room he

didn't he didn't really use it anymore

so I kept it in my room for a long time

and program loads of Beats just for fun

just fun and it's really easy to program

I still don't really know the right way

to program it I know how I programmed it

because I didn't have the instruction

manual so I just found a way to make the

sound come out and I had a PA in my room

in my dorm room um and a a DJ setup

because I was a DJ at that time and I

would J at the

parties in the dorm and sometimes

outside of the dorm and sometimes at

danceria but mainly djed in the dorm

okay at that time most of the rap

records that were coming out were like

Curtis blow or Jimmy Spicer they were

the

rapper and when you went to the club you

saw that the DJ was a really integral

part of the way the music music

worked

and and I said I I feel like instead of

it being a TAA Rock record it would be

better if it was a TA Rock and and

whoever your DJ is right and he didn't

have a DJ and my favorite DJ was Jazzy

Jay who also would DJ at Negril would DJ

at then the Roxy when the Roxy Negril

moved over to the Roxy and the scene

that became at the Roxy was the same

scene as Negril just in a bigger

venue um so I asked Jazzy if he would do

the record and um and he agreed and then

it became T Rock and Jazzy J and that

record was done with a beat that I

programmed Jazzy J

scratching and T Rock riding the Rhymes

and where did you record that at power

play a recording studio in Long Island

City which advertised in the Village

Voice and it was the cheapest recording

studio you could find it was $40 an hour

and we recorded in 3 hours

okay and what was that experience like

so you didn't did had you ever been in a

studio before one time before with my

punk rock band or two times before with

my punk rock band but still power play

and you know go in for a few hours and

record essentially live I only cared

what it sound like sounded like I didn't

care how it got to sounding like it

sounded you know if the meters were

pinned in the red sometimes the engineer

would say well you know the meters are

it's like but it sounds good I don't

care I never cared what technically was

happening as long as the sound coming

from the speaker sounded good so my my

only memories of it were having fun in

the studio trying to make something that

sounded exciting that we all left happy

with I'd like to take a second to talk

to you about this channel of the people

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channel thank

you when you say that you didn't that

those records that were done up till

that time sounded like R&B records they

were done like R&B records right because

the people that were working on them did

R&B yeah but when you'd go to the club

and you'd hear it it'd be coming through

a PA system and it would have a

completely different sound to it well

beyond that y the R&B records at the

time were mainly live bands

whereas at the club it would be a

mixture of drum machine and break beats

so even though a

breakbeat is is essentially a live

performance right it's such a small

piece of a live performance and it's

usually a drum break and the DJ is

scratching so much that it's obscuring

the live performance aspect of it the

live performance aspect of it is still

important it's the reason it's chosen as

Source material but it's definitely

manipulated into something new and that

new thing is very

raw and it's exciting it sounds

alive um so that was really what what

the key was bringing the DJ to the

Forefront

and focusing more on

the power and energy

coming from this mix of drum

machine aggressive

scratching um often minimal which was

different than the R&B records wouldn't

be minimal they'd be a normal a normal

R&B record with a full band playing were

people

incorporating uh uh the 808 for example

the drum machines in their they were

were were they using them in their live

performances there was one DJ who wore

an 808 with a guitar strap on it not

when he was using it but just around the

club okay um and I think that was Grand

Wiz grandmas wizard whz used in 808 it

wasn't more popular than any other drum

machine it had gotten phased out

essentially I think around 83 or so by

Roland I believe it was a obsolete

machine yeah which which then became one

of the most popular you know sound yeah

to be used later um we used it on a song

uh beasty Boy song called Brass Monkey

which has

a it's a fast 808 beat that sounds like

it ended up there ended up being this

whole movement called Miami base yeah

that all kind of sounds like that um

this

fast 808 music on that be record one of

the tracks has the reverse

you have a reversed 808 on it yeah it's

I think Paul R that's right now here's a

little story I got to tell about three

bad brothers you know so well it started

way back in history with that Ro and me

been had a little horsey named Paul R

just me and my horsey in a court of beer

riding cross the land kicking Up Stand

sharing splices on my Tails cuz I'm in

demand one lonely

I all by myself without no the sun is

beating down on my baseball hat the air

is getting hot

the so Rick at this time to do a reverse

beat like that you have the program beat

and you literally would reverse the tape

yeah and I believe it was Adam Ya's idea

to do that to to use the 808 backwards I

want to back up a little bit because

before we get to the Beasty Boys how did

the label how do you actually start a

record label how did you know how to do

that how did you learn how to do that

because IID made the two punk rock

sing a single in an

EP uh there was a record store called 99

records Ed Balman was the proprietor of

99 records it was mainly an uh import

record store mostly dance music but they

had some punk rock and it was downstairs

tiny little store under an Italian

restaurant I I believe and I would hang

out in that store every day and they put

out some of their own records they put

out ESG Glenn

branka uh liquid

liquid um the bush

tetras so because I used to hang out

there all the time when I recorded the

first punk rock records I asked Ed at

the

store how do I make a record and he

walked me through the process of there's

a place in Brooklyn that can make the

labels there's a place you can have the

the the uh jackets made here but there's

a place in Canada that makes them even

better quality okay he told me about a

pressing plant he told me about a

mastering engineer and just walked me

through all the steps he's like you go

here you do this you go here you do this

and um and then when I had 500 records

he offered to distribute them for me

which he did B of his record store so

that was how it started first and then

we

with the first rap record it was

recorded the same way and I was planning

to do the same steps and then Jazzy J

who was the DJ on the record called me

and he said I just met this guy Arthur

Baker and he's got a label called

StreetWise and I think he'll really like

our song so will you come up and meet

him so I went up to Shakedown sound

which was the studio that Arthur had and

I played him it's yours and he loved it

and he said we'll put it out on they had

a sublevel of StreetWise called party

time and I said well I want it to be on

Def Jam but it'll it we can have our

logo on it and you can do it cuz again I

didn't know how to do any of the parts

of it right but I just knew I wanted to

be able to make records so he made that

record had the it was the first that's

the first record to have a Def Jam logo

on

it and and that came out the label says

party time but on the sleeve it says has

the de Jam logo I started getting demo

tapes to the dorm room at NYU because of

it's yours so people liked it's yours

the address of Death Jam was five

University Place which was winstein

dormatory um and I started getting demo

tapes and AD Rock from the Beasty Boys

Adam haritz would listen to the demo

tapes and he said I heard there's this

demo tape I think you really like and

that was L Cool J it said ladies love

Cool J and then LL came to visit or I

called LL and he came came to the door

room yeah yeah he was 16 I remember the

first thing he said when I opened the

door he's like are you Rick and I said

yeah he I thought you were

black at that time nobody white was

involved in rap music at all it was a

really small movement and completely

underground um but El came

over he had a book full of Rhymes rhymed

for

me um and then we decided to

make a recording which we then moved

instead of power play that was the first

one cuz it's yours we made it power play

the first record we didn't make it Power

Play was I need a beat was ll's first

record and we recorded that at what I

called Chun King Chun King's house of

metal um because it was it was really

called Secret Sound and it was such a

dump it was worse of a dump than

it was worse of a dump than the place we

had been recording before up five

flights of stairs in

Chinatown and the proprietor's name was

John King so I called it Chun King House

of metal um because I wanted it to have

more cache than what it really was which

was this really bad

place

um Rick would they have a 2in 24 track

or was this on 16 track 16 1624 they had

great equipment they had the reason we

went there there was an engineer named

Jay Bernett okay who made a record that

I loved that was hard to get it was hard

to get and hard to hear but sometimes

you'd hear it at the rap clubs called it

was called drum machine okay have you

ever heard it no I'll play it for

[Music]

you out

[Music]

it out it sh it sh

it the the

[Music]

[Applause]

[Music]

that is amazing so I heard that and I

met that guy and then that record you

couldn't really get so I asked him if we

could re-release it on Death Jam because

it was impossible to get and I just

liked it and then he had the idea

because he knew Adam ya from Shakedown

Arthur Baker's Studio he was an engineer

who worked sometimes at sh down and

he said what about if Adam wraps on

it and they did a new version of it and

that was I think the fourth the fourth

12in single we released stune Jam but he

recommended he's like there's a studio

instead of going to power play there's a

studio downtown that has a a

NE it was an

8028 so a Class A old NE I didn't really

know what any of this stuff was but he's

like this is better equipment you may

want to work in this place wow so and I

didn't know this at the time but that

place was really a front for a drug

running operation it really was the

studio was only uh really a money

laundering operation for a different

business again I didn't know any of this

so we recorded ll's first record I need

a beat there LL was I think 16 at the

time and that was the first release on

the new Jam like the the maroon label

proper Def Jam Release when you say

release where would the how would you do

distribution I'm comfortable asking

questions so I would go I had friends at

I was friends with Tom Silverman at

Tommy boyy records so he would have been

a mentor I was friends with there was

the promotion man at profile records but

I would talk to people who are in The

Independent Record business and you know

I'm a kid in school interested curious I

like their music and just had questions

how do I do this where do I go and I got

a list of the I think at that time there

were either 12 or

14

Independent Record Distributors around

the

country um there was one big state in

Texas Ms in maybe

Atlanta um crd I think was in California

I can't remember them all um but there

were these little Independent Record

Distributors and we I'd call them send

them the record and then they'd order

you know send me 50 copies send me 70

what would be a typical pressing 500

maybe a start might have been 500

depending on the record like in the case

of LL we may have even sent the song

around in advance to get a sense but we

we had it set up where we could get

reorders relatively

quickly so it was always just keeping

enough stock in advance of whatever the

orders were and just running it like a

you know like a business and were you

keeping this stuff in your dorm room

yeah I mean that we had it got to the

point where behind the front desk at the

dorm when you come in there was the mail

room and eventually a room probably

about this size ended up being

completely filled with Bo of Records um

once things got going and so many

started being ordered that we started

getting thousands and thousands of boxes

of Records right now were your parents

saying Rick what are you doing are you

were were you uh I don't think they were

particularly interested I they they

weren't really following so they didn't

even know what was going on not really I

I mean unless I told them about it did

you end up finishing your degree I did

so that would have been let's see

85 85 85 86 87 there's a lot of stuff

that was happening in that time period

can you talk talk about that I remember

LL was first yep I was working on the BC

Boys album already

then and

then we made run dmc's raising hell that

was also right around that time and that

was a that was a big deal because they

were they were my favorite rap group in

the world they were the Beatles of rap

music

and they came to my dorm room and asked

me if I would work with them which was

insane because they liked it's yours so

then I start we started working on that

record and that was different I also got

to meet them on the on the album

before before raising hell um their

second album was before raising hell I

played guitar on one song

poorly you know bar chords something

simple with rund DMC

you had um when you did the

Aerosmith uh

collaboration Aerosmith was really on

the outs at that time they were their

career was essentially over yeah is it

true that the guys that run you guys

didn't want to do the song when you

suggested doing Walk This Way that they

didn't want to do it they were up for

using the music they were up for the

track yeah but they didn't want to say

the words they didn't want to do a cover

song they loved the music but they

didn't like the song okay so how did you

convince them to do that I don't think I

was able to convince them and Russell

who is Run's brother eventually said

just do what Rick

says that's how I think it

happened and and I explained to them it

was a demonstration of something it was

the purpose of the song of doing that

song we' already finished the album yeah

and I listened to the album and I felt

like something was missing and I had

this experience in California where um

someone in the record business who was

trying to get me to come work there said

um what do you

attribute the success of rap to after

all it's not music and I remember

thinking it's interesting this guy's

like wants to be in business with me and

he's telling me that what I'm doing is

stop music right it's interesting yeah

and I feel like there's this disconnect

people if you didn't understand you just

don't understand it right and then I

started thinking about how could you

explain it how could I explain to this

person how could I give a musical

demonstration that this is not only is

it music but it's familiar music and I

thought about well if I can find a song

that's a known

song that

functions essentially like a rap record

but isn't a rap record but could

function just as well as a rap record

that would explain it and the first song

I thought of was Walk This Way which is

he's rapping stepen Tyler's rapping 100%

he's not singing a Melody no you would

hear the beat of Walk This Way played in

a rap club already you'd never hear the

song right but you'd hear the beat so it

was in the

cannon like there's there's a cannon

of accepted Beats

in hip-hop at that

time and you could stray from it and you

could add to it but there were certain

things like Apache you know when you

hear Apache you could picture somebody

uh spinning on their back because it was

the music that was used by break dancers

all the time I don't know how it became

the theme song for break dancing but it

it became that and there were all of

these beats that if you went to the rap

clubs

there were certain breaks that you would

hear everywhere Billy Squire's big beat

another one never heard the song right

but you'd

hear the the drum sound and that first

little the first beat you might hear I

love the big beat that much of it

probably places that had actual exposed

drum beats yeah it was a break yeah an

Apache has a big breakdown section with

a bongo people called it Bongo Rock but

it was Apache who facilitated getting in

touch with Aerosmith When you my idea

was to do the song yep and I recorded

the

track and then the profile who was label

contacted Aeros Smith okay and I was I

was surp I grew up loving Aeros Smith I

saw Aeros Smith I saw Aeros Smith play

at JFK stadium in front of 70,000 people

the first Stadium show I ever was at and

that was in either 77 or 78 then I saw

them play at Nassau

Coliseum and then the next year they

played at a club called speaks which was

maybe 500 people so I saw the I saw the

band crumble yeah but they were still

aosmith right and we were still you know

even though Run DMC was runmc it wasn't

aosmith runmc had never played in the

stadium

runmc it was still big fish in very

small pond right so the label reached

out and Stephen and Joe showed up and I

was shocked but they did did they play

along with the track that you had is

that how that i' had already done the

whole track and Joe added

guitar

and uh and Stephen sang I'm play the

track

here so that's scratching and a program

beat

that's Jo Perry playing and the

scratching was I might have scratched

from the original record to get

[Music]

that with a little K like this

[Music]

in

[Music]

the that guitar work that's Joe and I

would not have played that if I if I was

playing guitar on the track I wouldn't

have played that so when they came in to

record the guitar parts when Joe was

playing it there you're you're there and

me run and& D and step were all in the

studio at the same time and it was for

some reason cuz I guess cuz the label

set it up it was a studio Uptown that

I'd never been to before when Joe was

playing on it you must have it must have

been fun right to hear him play that

riff absolutely absolutely and I

remember um he played a solo that I

thought was not great and I said I feel

like you could do better if people I

said if people hear this they're going

to think Brad played it which is the

other guitar player in Harold

Smith ouch Jo was like let me do another

another take and this became a massive

hit yeah but again you could never

expect it you could never expect it it

it did have a purpose but it didn't have

a the purpose wasn't to be a hit it was

to

explain rap music is not foreign that

was the purpose of the song it was a

educational uh experiment or an exercise

it revived Aeros career completely they

went on to have the one of the few bands

that went on to have a second career

yeah again all miraculous it did happen

do you think it connected with people

because they already were familiar with

this kind of kind of like you giving the

example to to the an anr guy that this

totally makes sense to people well I

remember the first station to play it

was wbcn in Boston and air Smith's a big

deal in Boston yes and the first time

they played it

people called up angry take that crap

off the air okay they were insulted and

then a week later it was the most

requested song on the station so it

definitely polarized the audience but it

had energy and um and then based on the

success on bcn it spread to other

stations but it was

primarily Rock and alternative stations

that played it it wasn't R&B or or um

Urban stations that played it the idea

of having real guitar along with program

beats and things like that like with the

beasties that you had you had guitars

you had programming you had real drums

on some tell me about your how the the

you started working with the Beasty Boys

how did that come together yeah so I was

a DJ yep and they had made a record

called Cookie Puss which was a hip hop

related I guess you'd say it was a

novelty song cuz it was like a prank

phone call to a carll ice cream shop oh

yeah yeah over a funk beat done with

scratching and I remember that I would

hear that song on like College radio

stations and I really liked it I

remember I was in San Francisco with my

punk rock band when I first heard it and

really liked it and

then Adam Harvest was also in a group

called Young and the useless and the

singer of that group's St was Dave

skillin and I was a friend of Dave

skillin

and Dave introduced me to Adam and then

eventually through Adam I ended up

meeting the other guys in the band and

then because they were doing they were a

punk rock guitar band at the time and

they wanted to do Cookie Puss which was

their new single live and they couldn't

really do it because it was a DJ piece

so they asked if I would DJ for them and

also I had a bubble machine and they

like the bubble machine which I which I

adopted it was at the dorm and we'd use

it sometimes cuz it was so ridiculous

uhhuh so they like the idea of that I

could DJ and bring the bubble machine

let me play a couple songs from that no

sleep

too that's me play the

[Music]

car that's a DX drum machine

F on the P never ever for metal a

running hotter than a boiling CH my job

a job it's a damn good time City to City

I'm running my ride location to around

the nation be boys always on

vacationing to table I do it I

I'm your money I'm taking the watch only

going to sh at the to working 9 to5 the

p boys had the gun kicking it

live Rick so that's you playing guitar

on that yeah it's pretty rudimentary

that answers so many

questions I don't know I think that

you're that I think you underplay a

little bit on this I don't know what

kind of guitar did you have at the time

that would have been a Gibson SG Jr that

was the band that I had my punk rock

band and that was still my guitar and

that's a guitar that when my apartment

got broken into New York got sto Sten

where would you have recorded that that

that was recorded at Chun King House of

metal okay I think our Focus really was

on the words and the vibe of the wraps

and in this case it was just like a rock

track it wasn't like uh the it was

something to to actually just sing and

rap pretty much it was more like a

vehicle for the vocals but I mean it's a

rock track though well that's the music

I liked you know I grew up listening to

rock music and that was my taste so this

blending of rock and rap seems very

natural it was completely natural and

and connected with people it did it

connected with me because it was my

experience but it connected with other

people because it was their experience

it was just no one had done it but it

wasn't um extraordinary in any way it's

we think of Music in genres and we think

they are like there are country people

who listen to country music and there

are Rock people who listen to rock music

when in

reality a lot of people listen to all

different kinds of music so I listen to

a lot of rock music and I listen to a

lot of hip-hop and this is the result of

that and the and the fact that it was

popular tells you there were a lot of

people who like those two things too

right just hadn't happened yet when I

hear you say CU you're a modest guy Rick

when I hear you say I don't know

anything about I was referring to the

Anderson Cooper interview I don't know

anything about equipment I don't I don't

no but I'm telling you like if we went

to a studio I could not run a session

myself I couldn't record it but you know

what the gear is you know you know the

difference between a NE and an API I do

because I've been in places with both of

them yes but it doesn't matter yeah what

I'm saying is for the technical people

who work with me yeah the skill they

have yes I don't have that skill I can't

do their job I can't sub for them I

can't get by I cannot do those jobs I

need a technical person who knows how

the studio works and I can say more of

this less of that and that's always what

I've done but you have this really

unique ability to pick people out that

are really gifted at that like you have

you have a great year for records that

sound great and you always have found

the best Engineers to work with and

things like that yeah and sometimes been

luck and sometimes it's been seeking out

based on hearing something I'll hear

something like that sounds better than

everything else who's the

engineer maybe we can try working

together when I interviewed Brendan

O'Brien I he told me that George tulius

you hired to do the black crow record

you said find the best engineer in town

yeah and use the use him yeah whoever it

is yeah and Brendan was working at

Southern tracks Brendan O'Brien and

Brendan uh recorded the album and then

and mixed the record I believe and then

Brendan told me you convinced him to

come out to LA to work on the Chili

Peppers record he and his wife they took

a big leap and did that because of you

he credits you for doing that I believe

that Andy Wallace worked on on the like

the Slayer record well I want to talk

about that Andy Wallace was one of the

house engineers at Shakedown where Adam

yaak worked okay and where this Arthur

Baker studio so because Adam worked

there we would hang out there sometimes

we were all kind of friends with Arthur

Baker and you know for kids in school

getting to hang out at a real recording

studio was like it was just a cool thing

to do yeah so we would get to hang out

and just see what was going on and they

had there were uh two DJs who work there

who called themselves the Latin Rascals

who did these tape edit

remixes that got very popular and they

were super cool guys and they would just

like make repeat pieces of tape and

splice them together and sometimes you

know there'd be a thousand splices in

the course of a mix all hand done all

before sampling amazing so it was a

really creative time in music

where the the language of hip-hop was

being developed before the what became

the tools of hip-hop like

sampling existed I remember when we when

the first sampler came and we had our

first sampler and um and that just

changed the way we could do because

before sampling if you wanted to use a

brake beat you djed or I would DJ The

Brak beat I would DJ it and the way we

typically do it is I would play let's

say it was it was walked this way for

example I didn't I I programmed the beat

for Walk This Way but had I used the

brake beat the way it would have worked

would have been B that b Bo boom do

stop and then B that b bo b that so

every other one would happen on track

one and then on track two you'd fill in

the in between so you'd listen and you'd

hear that b bo bo that and then that b

boom bo that and the SEC the first one

would play again on track one and then

you do it on track two but part of it

also

was because you were dejing it it wasn't

perfect but that was part of what was

good about it you you You' try to get it

but if it was too perfect

it wasn't really interesting so it was

finding this balance of like sometimes

when you just make it it sounds it

sounds interesting so the track sounds

much more alive than when you just

sample a loop over and over again

because it's a performance it's a

performance yeah okay so Andy was

working Andy Wallace he was working at

the studio at not at Chung King the the

engineer at Chung King whose name was

Steve ET Steve Steve Ettinger was his

full name but Steve ET was what he

called himself and he was the house

engineer I recorded most of the things

that I recorded with him most of the rap

records and then Andy was one of the

house engineers at Shakedown along with

Jay brunett he might have mixed No Sleep

till Brooklyn he he mixed one of the

rockier songs on the beasties record and

I think that was the first time I worked

with them and then and we'd become

friends and then I was going to

California to make my the first record I

made in California was slayer's first

album r Raining Blood rain in blood rain

in blood yeah song's called Raining

Blood Raining Blood rain in blood is the

album asked him if you wanted to

engineer the record and I played

him I remember this he came to my where

I was living which was on um Broadway in

this weird Loft so I had moved out of

the dorm and we had already bought the

Death Jam building but it wasn't ready

for me to live in yet so I was living in

this weird it was really a hallway

where they put up a sheetrock

wall so that the hall so you could so

the hallway became smaller and my

apartment was the other half of the

hallway okay so it was really long and

Tall yeah but super narrow right and I

remember Andy came over and I played him

I played him a few different records

ACDC Metallica and I had a theory now

this is again this is not based on being

a musician this is not based on being a

technical person this is based on being

a fan and theoretical just

thoughts so when I hear very fast music

like

Metallica And The Sounds are big sounds

like on rock records the whole thing

gets blurry and you can't really hear it

talking about fast tempos right fast

tempos if you're playing if the music is

fast and if the sounds are big yeah

there's not enough space for those big

sounds to live next to H to happen next

to each other right there's no

punctuation yes it's just it becomes a

blur and I played him a Metallica record

as an example of what I thought was

wrong and I said would it be possible to

record in such a way

that it was hard sounding but everything

was short because it's fast and we want

there to be

this I didn't want it to be a blur of

bass I wanted it to be uh a pulse to

really feel the

pulse and um and he said I think we can

do that let me play something off that

yeah

[Applause]

[Music]

[Applause]

[Music]

[Applause]

n

[Music]

w

[Music]

[Applause]

CH in prator I love this object alive

awaiting

risal death will be

there sky is tur red return return to

power off near follow to me in the sky

above some rof Stone

[Music]

that's it the perfect example of what

you're talking about it has incredible

Clarity with all the double kicks and

when you're playing at a Tempo like that

especially with double bass drum it can

get completely blurry bully yeah it

could you could just lose it in a d of

sound and I think both this is

interesting never thought about this

before but listening to that and talking

about the early hip-hop records in both

cases not having the experience of the

right way to do it were part of the key

like if I was an

experienced heavy metal

producer I would use the

tricks that I'd used

on other heavy metal records because

that's what people do you know you learn

the ways to do it because I hadn't used

R&B records I didn't take the tricks of

R&B records and taint hip-hop right and

I didn't take the tricks of rocking big

rock records or heavy metal records and

taint speed metal it was more

subtractive than

additive in both of those cases it was

getting back to the essence it wasn't

making it wasn't doing the professional

thing it wasn't using all the

normal tricks

of of The

Craft it was reducing them to only what

was essential with the particular case

in mind now were they on they were on

Def Jam they were on Def Jem this is to

me the kind of quintessential Slayer

record here and here you are never

really produced a uh metal record and

yet you produced one of the

quintessential thrash records and and I

think it was that the reason why though

I think the reason was I didn't have the

baggage of what the old way of doing it

was and in this in both of these cases

these forms of Music were so new yeah

that the old way would have lessened

their impact it wouldn't have made them

better I can give you an example of

where that happened I loved Go Go music

and um Trouble Funk in particular but

there was this whole uh movement of go-

go in DC I learned about it right after

hipop and I loved it and then Island

Records signed all of the go go groups

and then they were thinking this is

going to be the next thing after hip-hop

and they put them with producers real

producers and all of it got watered down

and just turned into regular music when

what go go actually was was this

incredible thing that pretty much nobody

heard unless you went to a club I made

one record uh Junkyard band for Def Jam

a single have you ever heard that I have

not no can you go it probably YouTube

now what made the Junkyard band the

Junkyard band was they didn't have real

instruments they played on garbage so in

some sense it's not the perfect

illustration of go go but it's still a

raw recording of go go

[Music]

hey

we

hey

we hey anding me we

eat hey

anding every morning about to call a new

on the people started having some

f m oh what should I

do to the go go and have some fun

to hey that brok b

uh-huh hey that brok

b Why didn't this take off this style of

music I have no idea I do think the the

sound of the produced records undermined

the strength of Gog go

so the world never got to hear hear the

experience of go go if you went to the

go go it was one of the greatest

experiences of my life so it really

mirrors you going to see these the these

rap artists and and you the experience

in the club and like well the records

don't sound like this yeah so how do we

make them sound like that yeah and in

the case of Slayer seeing them live and

and seeing this is a new thing this it h

it has to be presented if you try to

make

it like a a traditional Rock

thing it it won't perform it's not what

it

is recognizing the differences and then

allowing or supporting the thing to be

what it really is when you were um

working on Slayer record how long would

these projects typically take do do all

records take different amounts of time

yeah all records take different amounts

of time beasty Boy album took two years

the Slayer record probably

took four weeks I'm guessing is that

because the songs were finished and it

was just a matter of getting the

performances yeah I went to um Tom I

think it was Tom's

mother's garage is where Slayer

rehearsed so I would go to rehearsal and

we would kind of work through the songs

there although honestly slayer's Vision

was very complete the way they played

the

songs everything about them it it that

was what they did and my job was really

just to document it as well as possible

clearly as possible one of the records

I'm going to kind of go out of order

here but one of the records we had

talked about yesterday the uh Tom Petty

wild flowers record which to me is one

of the most beautiful sounding

[Music]

and you way to turn it

up you belong among the wild

flowers you belong in a boat at at sea

Sail

Away kill off the

hours you belong somewhere you feel

free run

away find you

lover go away somewhere all brighten

you I have seen no

other who

Compares with

you you belong among the wild

flowers you belong in a boat out at

Sea You Belong With Your Love on your

own you belong somewhere you feel free

[Music]

[Applause]

[Music]

[Applause]

[Music]

this is so beautiful the sound of it

it's immaculate and it has so much feel

I mean it's really those Acoustics

everything about is that Tom playing the

acoustic on there the feel of it is Tom

and Mike Tom and Mike yeah the feel is

so just it has so much Vibe yeah and it

sounds it's actually a more complicated

record than you might I don't know how

much you've ever analyzed the song

production wise a lot happens in this

song for the typically when you hear it

you think acoustic guitar and vocals

essentially but there are so many events

musical events that subtle musical

events that happen throughout the song

if you want to listen to it we could try

to talk through them it's it's pretty

interesting yeah yeah

yeah this is I'm in Mike

playing Fon

is is kind of ghosting on time not

really

playing away kill off the

hours you belong somewhere you feel free

[Music]

and

[Music]

piano where all brighten

you I have

seen no

other

comp octave down on base

Oregon wild tambourines yeah oh yeah

Bo

SE and piano still

there you belong somewhere you feel

[Music]

free this is

horns Kick Drum snare which we hadn't

really heard before

[Applause]

perfectly balanced

[Music]

everything run away

go I think there's harmonium

here your yes oh I hear that you deserve

kick deepest of cover

percussion might be a Shaker

[Music]

butang are

[Music]

back the arpeggiated

[Music]

piano you Bel somewhere you feel

free you

belong yeah it's like a second set of

horns come

[Music]

in yeah it's a bigger horn section than

than

earlier you can hear that harmonium

there yeah and and I remember things

like when the Tam when the tambourine

goes away the Shaker comes in and it

it's all

orchestrated it wasn't recorded like

that it was recorded as it's it started

as Tom and Mike playing and Tom singing

and then all of the production got

overdubbed would you call that an

additive production in that way yeah in

that way but what's cool about it is it

all happens in such a subtle way that

none of it's like and now here's the

horns or you know what I'm saying it's

like everything's understated and it

serves a function and even some of the

things that you don't hear like um the

tambourine or the triangle

subconsciously you the the track is

evolving it's staying interesting to

your

ears whether you can hear it or not

whether you could tell or not these

little moments are happening along the

way way that are keeping you occupied

and keeping again

subconsciously keeping it fresh this

particular record we talked yesterday a

little bit about this

song you don't know how it feels

yeah there no

[Music]

symbols I don't think we ever put

symbols on interesting

let me run with you tonight I'll take

you home a Moonlight

[Music]

ride there's someone I used to see but

she don't give a damn for

me but let me get to the point let's

roll another join and turn

radio L I'm too long to be

proud you don't know how it

feels you don't know how it

feels to be

me people come oh I hate to stop that um

what was the idea behind recording the

drums without the symbols because we

thought of it as a roomy drum sound if

you listen to drum tracks and if you put

up the room sounds the symbols are

always a loudest splashiest thing and

they end up taking over the track right

so it becomes a limitation in what you

can do later and I remember asking Steve

when he played this to not not hit the

symbols at all and if there were going

to be symbols we would overdub them and

then and I think the plan was always to

overdub them but for whatever reason we

just never did and it just probably

never seemed necessary and the

compression on the room mics is what

gives it that the big room sound and

that's the sound of um Sound City which

is a remarkable sounding place to me

when I hear that it's you know just a

perfect example of of a fat real drum

sound what what records are you a fan of

that you that you like uh that would

have a sound like that the drum sounds I

like I like like acdc's Highway to Hell

album those are drum sounds that I

really like but one of the things that

I've come to learn um I didn't know this

early early in making records but I've

learned it is it works better

to instead of imagining a like an ACDC

like drum sound on your record whatever

the thing that you have in front of you

whatever the snare drum you're

using the best version of that drum

sound is going to be better than trying

to make it sound like ACDC right so

early on we would try to make things

sound like things we

liked it doesn't it does not work but if

you take whatever it is and make it

sound the best it can possibly sound

it's going to sound interesting you may

have to switch out the snare you know

that that's another possibility

but

typically using the things you have and

making the best of what those things are

instead of trying to turn them into the

thing that you wish they were is a

really good uh is a good way to go the

other thing about this is that Tom's

voice the blend of it in with the with

the tracks has such a unique sound to it

I can't even tell if there's Reverb on

The Voice I don't think there is just

the tone of it is just fantastic timeas

that that goes to also what I was saying

about whatever the thing in front of you

is make it sound the good version of

what that is in a way that goes to the

vocal not having Reverb it's like what

is his voice really sound like and how

do

we put it up front where it feels like

he's singing into your ear and really

hear like sometimes you can even hear

him breathing or a mouth pop not look

looking for Perfection so much as

looking for reality and getting closer

to who he is to where you feel like he's

singing to you I asked you yesterday

when we were talking about that about

having the dry vocals without Reverb for

people that that are not technical he's

out in front he's talking to the to the

audience he's out he's the leader of the

band and his voice is out there it's dry

let's say and then the band is behind

him kind of how it would be spatially do

you think in that way or your thing is

for the clarity so you can hear the

lyrics The Clarity hearing the words and

hearing the human behind the

words something where I can feel the

person more now someone like Tom would

he have would he have had a particular

microphone that he likes on on his voice

or is this something that you would want

to be involved in choosing if there was

one that he liked we would probably use

it if he didn't have one that he liked

we'd probably test a few and all say

what sounded best how much is the

artist's comfort in what they're doing

important to you it's very important

unless it undermines what we're doing

which it can be the case it's rare it's

rarely the case but sometimes there's

just a disconnect like I got to do a

track with Rory Orbison he really didn't

want to sing the high note at the end of

the song and you really want Roy Orbison

to sing the high note at the end so it

was not he wouldn't have chosen to do

that but I didn't feel like it was a

proper Roy Orbison record if he didn't

do that when Tom was writing lyrics for

this were the songs were his lyrics done

did you guys talk about them um how what

was his process like he would call me up

to come over to his house in um

enino and play me typically three or

four songs at a time and we would do

this over this album was another album

was probably a 2-year period from

starting until it was done it wasn't 2

years of working every day but it was

here's a batch of songs let's talk about

them here's another batch of songs let's

talk about them and got to the point

where there were probably maybe the

first time we went in there might have

been 10 or 12 Songs might have even been

less but I think it was 10 or 12 songs

that we went in and recorded and then we

did that whole same process again over

more time and the goal of the studio

recordings was just getting the basic

track and we tried to do that as quickly

as possible and then all of the

production happened in Mike Studio after

and that

took a long time and I could remember

you know I would drive from Hollywood

out to the valley it would take about an

hour to get there and then we might

spend the whole day working

on the bass on one song would be typical

Mike would usually play the the base mhm

and we would go phrase by phrase like

like he might play a pass first and then

we would think of it like um like the

orchestration of the song like more in

the Beetles way like in each moment what

can the bass do that advances the story

and it would take a long time when Tom

would play you uh demos would he

actually have recorded demos of the

songs typic recorded demos sometimes he

play the songs on acoustic guitar or

sometimes he'd play me the demo and then

we'd talk about it and I'd say can you

play it and what's it like if we double

the precourse for example what would

that sound like and he would do that and

we would work on the shapes of the songs

just acoustically before how often would

you guys use click tracks and

historically on records you made how

often would click tracks be used we go

through phases some drummers love click

tracks some drummers only want to play

as a drummer I work with Chris Dave

who's maybe I think maybe the best

drummer in the world he only likes to

play with a click track now he plays

great without it he really likes to play

with it

so I I wouldn't um I wouldn't argue

right and there are some bands that

don't like to play with click tracks but

the click track could help so what we

might do is use the click track in

rehearsal to get used to playing it in

one

tempo and then take the click track off

when when we record it and sometimes

they can do it and sometimes they can't

right but I would say often we don't use

them often we don't need them often

we're looking for something different

than what the click track

provides um but it really depends on the

artist so in and in Tom's case we would

rarely use the click track if the band

was playing together but on a song like

wildflowers you need the click track you

would probably get any of the acoustic

songs that we would build another one

would be um only a broken heart that one

for sure was played to a click

[Music]

track and this was just two guitars to a

click track first and then the drums got

added after everything got added

[Music]

after here comes that feeling

you could hear it

it's but it's part of the strength of

the song This song without a click track

this song wouldn't be what it

is I'm Not

Afraid any

[Music]

anymore it's

only a

pro broken

heart I know the place where you keep

your

secrets out the b the

sunshine down in a

valley but I not

afraid in

anym it's

only Tom is such a great hook

writer I mean he really would come up

with the most brilliant hooks he was

unbelievable unbelievable unbelievable

talking about click

tracks I think in General all of the

philosophical ideas of

like we need it's better to make music

with a click track it's better to make

music without it's better to record on

tape than digital it's better to rec

whatever they are it it is always case

specific right there are no right

answers right and sometimes it's nice to

record in tape sometimes it's nice to

record digitally and there's not a right

or wrong there might be a right or wrong

for a song or for a project

right but there are no rules like that

and it's it's real uh there's a real

freedom in knowing that none of the

rules

about the right way to do it none of

those ex none of those are real those

are all madeup rules and you can discard

all of them you could use them if

they're helpful but as soon as they get

in the in the

way discard them

and there there truly is no right way to

do any of it we talked yesterday about

many bands like to record the drum track

and then add the guitars and then add

bass and then add the vocals last or

they have their own order some like to

do AC acoustic guitar and vocals to a

click track and then add the drum track

and then build it up from there but and

artists have their own way of doing it

and again there's no right or wrong way

and it can be changed throughout a

record the song with a click track and

there are some bands who really thrive

on the way that they do it and it's okay

I remember um when I produced Lincoln

Park the first time the idea of them

playing together as a band was so alien

to them they in the past they I think

they'd made three records before that

not only had they never played together

on any of their records They never

played their songs together until they

played them on stage they were always

made in the studio that's how they

worked so we tried doing it in Stu we

tried playing together in the studio and

it was interesting sometimes but it

didn't have to be that way it's always

interesting to test you know to test

those the way you've done it before is

there a new way or an old way that works

better we don't know until we test it

but to assume there's the one way is

never the case you never know I want to

move back in time here um I want to talk

about the Chili Peppers you've worked

with the Chili Peppers many times but to

me um one of the most important records

of the 90s blood sugar Sex Magic I want

to play that exact song Here CU that is

a amazing song

[Music]

[Music]

[Applause]

[Music]

[Applause]

[Music]

[Applause]

[Music]

[Applause]

[Music]

he

BL sugar sish in my dish how many pieces

do you wish step into a heaven where I

keep it on the soul side girl Me Be My

Soul Every Woman

afro to create a state of sexual life

kissing her virginity my I with the

withar

[Music]

she magic Sex Magic Sex

[Music]

Magic she magic Sex Magic sex

magic crazy she has a Sex Magic Sex

Magic blood suar baby she magic a Sex

Magic a Sex Magic

[Music]

now to me that's one of the best

sounding tracks it sounds phenomenal it

sounds great when you hear that don't

you yeah I haven't heard it since

probably since we madeit it and it

sounds really cool it sounds it's just

so there you have to also keep in mind

they're really a good band yeah it's

like they're an incredibly good band

talk about how important that is Rick

it's that's why I say I'm not a

musician there's some of the best

musicians in the world Chad flee and

John those three musicians I don't know

that you can find better musicians than

those three musicians it's Peak whether

you like their music or not their

ability to play is amazing on another

planet yeah so what you're hearing is

yeah it sounds good but it it sounds

good because it's them playing it if

three other people were playing they

instruments it would not it wouldn't

sound good right with the same setup

it's in the touch you know it's the it's

them the way they attack their

instruments obviously some good choices

were made in mic placement but you could

have the exact same mic placement with

someone else playing and it would not be

that now how long did that record take

to make I think we're in the house for

either six weeks or two months something

like that and was that a record where

most of the lyrics would be

done let's talk about leading up to that

album because it was very interesting

leading up to the album okay the band

was on Emi

records and they decided to leave Emi

and originally they were going to sign

with epic there was some complication

and this was over more than a year so we

had worked on on we had been doing

pre-production for about a a year

thinking we were going into record and

then all of the business complications

which were completely out of our control

they like you can't record yet if you

record it it's still under your Emi

contract then epic's trying to work out

a deal with Emi but it's not happening

and we were just in this limbo phase so

ended up writing probably the equivalent

of a whole another album and worked for

a whole another year in preparation just

because we couldn't go into the studio

so part of what makes that album that

album is it was essentially

two album Cycles worth of writing and

preparation before we ever went into the

studio wow so by the time we went in

they were in very good they were very

well prepared they were two albums

prepared do you find that writing is

like working out the more they write the

more in shape they get or is it that the

inspiration just randomly a song will

come out of the blue I think both are

true I think there is a a writing muscle

that when you practice it you get better

and the more you do it the the better it

is that said there are these moments of

inspiration that you that are outside of

that realm where something comes and

it's not based on your practice or or if

it is based on your practice it's some

tangential you know it's not just

another day it's not doing your daily

office hours of writing right something

else happens but you can't depend on

those you can't wait for those so it

really is both both are true if you had

to say on on that particular record were

there songs that were late songs that

were stand up I honestly can't remember

the order of the songs but I will say

before we go into the studio let's say

we have a list of 25 songs and let's say

we were to prioritize those songs in

terms of

favorites before we go into the studio

and then we record all 25

songs after the recording it's an

entirely different priority list so I'm

wary to ever prioritize

anything until it's done because

sometimes one of your least one of the

songs on the C list you know you have

the a list and the b list and then the C

list if you get to it sometimes the C

the songs turn out to be the best songs

on the album because things happen and

sometimes a songs might not be the best

might not even make the album once

they're recorded because stuff

happens and we're not in control of it

there there's a Tom Petty song called um

climb that hill climb that Hill again

when he wrote it and played it for me I

thought this is the best Tom Petty song

I've ever heard and we tried recording

it and we recorded it for maybe the echo

album maybe and then it just wasn't it

wasn't good enough could never get it

and then we tried recording it again we

recorded a few times and it it ended up

coming out on something but it still was

not close

to what it could have been and I can't

tell you why I don't know why we never

cracked the code in studio interesting

there are two different versions that

are floating around both of which are

okay but none of them rise to the

potential of the song how many extra

songs do you like to have do you have do

you have an idea making a record that

this record is going to be 10 to 12

songs but I want to record 16 or is it

you record as many songs as you feel are

worthy of doing I I like to record every

single song we have I I don't rule

anything out and um it's not uncommon to

record 30 songs for a for an album that

will not have 30 songs and what's the

process of going through deciding on

what's going to make the record a

democratic process within the band we

all like in the Chili Peppers usually

like half of it becomes very

obvious like everybody votes and then

half of the songs everybody voted for

and those are those are on yeah yeah

yeah and then only the then the second

half is what's in question and then we

and then typically it'll be which song

has F it's usually five votes cuz the

four band members MERS and me I get a

vote and we all vote and then

we tally up and then we see what what

fits where but then sometimes when you

get past the Democratic part where all

the five votes are in all of the four

votes are in and then what happens after

that is more like let's start over let's

rethink cuz sometimes there's a song

that's not obvious but has some charm

that somebody might want to really argue

for and we listen you know all we talk

about it it never gets I would say it

never gets ugly um and the real job is

getting to that you know when we agree

on eight out of 12 we're in pretty good

shape right you know and usually the the

problem in deciding the others is

there's too many good songs it's never

we're never in a situation where there

aren't enough good songs with a band

like the Chili Peppers it's always like

how are we going to do it not how can we

do a single album that's the argument is

like we want people to hear these songs

we like these songs that's so that comes

up were you guys surprised at how big

that record was I'm always surprised I

I'm always surprised when anybody likes

anything because there so there's so

many

um barriers in the way of things getting

through you know you can have yes uh

someone can put out an album I remember

the the first System of a Down album

came out on

911 wow nobody was talking about music

at that time they they work their whole

lives to make their first album that's

right and the day it comes out there's a

catastrophe yeah and they have a song

with lyrics about Jihad yeah it was

unbelievable the time it was remarkable

so you can't you there are so many

things that get in the way or you know

Beyonce decides to put out her album on

that day like we have no control of that

yeah so there's so many factors anytime

anything gets through it feels like a

win we talked yesterday a little bit

about this song

[Music]

sometimes I feel like I don't have a

partner sometimes I feel like my holy

friend is the city I live in the city of

Angel lonely as I am together with

cry I drive on the streets cuz she's my

companion I walk through a Hills CU she

knows who I am and she sees my good

deeds and she kisses me

Wy L never worry now that is a

[Music]

lie I don't know want to

feel like I did that day take me to the

place I

love take me all way I don't ever want

to

feel like I did that day but take me to

the place I

love take me all

away

yeah yeah

yeah this to me Rick sounds every every

song on here just sounds like it just

played live yeah it really does yeah it

was when I

interviewed Brendan he talked about the

intro that you guys added that later

John came up with the picking thing and

that was a an overdub but the rest of

the track literally sounds the base part

when I hear it like all the little fills

in there the extra little you know cross

sticks and the snare and everything

everything just sounds played right by

them it is it is it's it's live and the

the way the song came about was

different for them because they'd never

done a song like that before they talk

about that historically they were a a

band that played Funk music with rap

vocals yes and that was the chili pepper

sound MH this was a song that wasn't

supposed to be a chili pepper song and

it was a lyric that or a poem that

Anthony had written and um I was looking

through his lyrics I went to his house

and he was just showing me his lyric

books and I was looking and I said

what's this one and he said that's not

for the chili peppers and I said well

read it to me and he read it to me I

like it's really beautiful why would you

say it's not for the Chili Peppers he's

like it's not what we do and I said what

about what about playing it for the

other guys singing it to the other guys

and he was shy about it but he said he

would play it for John he would sing it

for John okay and he sang it for John

and John came up with the guitar part

and

then John and Anthony brought it to the

studio with the guys that the rehearsal

um which was the alley was where we were

rehearsing have you ever been in the

alley super cool place John and Anthony

sang sang it for flee and Chad and they

loved it and then it became a chili

pepper song and because of that it then

broke open the frame of what the Chili

Peppers were to it could be anything

right that was really big thing it was

it it it it was knowing that they were

more than a sound that if the four of

them liked what they were making and if

it was a true expression of the music

that they made together that's what the

Chili Peppers was the Chili Peppers were

not

um rap lyrics with funk roofs that was

an aspect of them but it wasn't it

didn't Define them I've seen the Chili

Peppers play many times as a matter of

fact they're one of my favorite bands

live they're an amazing amazingly fun

band to watch unbelievable and they such

good musicians they're such good

musicians they sound like the record

they are they have incredible energy

their music connects with people even

today kids it's ageless really why do

you think that is I I don't know but I

think there's a a spirit and energy in

the music it's

free like they're they're

really rooted in this thing and it's not

an intellectual process they're feeling

something and if it comes through them

and we're lucky enough to get it see it

see it come through them because it

really does come through them and we get

to a section where John's plays a solo

and it feels like the sky opens up right

it's

insane and it's different every time and

it's just like it's coming

through it's wild it's wild to see it

happen like listening to um under the

bridge the song is Beautiful the guitar

part is beautiful the Baseline is

unexpected and wildly cool yes wildly

cool all the parts all the parts are

interesting none of them are ordinary

yeah you know it could be it could sound

like a little folk song yeah but they're

so original in their musicianship what

they bring to it it's remarkable and

they and you've seen them live and you

know that's how they it is how they are

it's how they are it is them they play

like that and if you put mics in front

of them it still sounds like that I find

that they don't get in each other's way

with their arrangements with their parts

they come up with flea's part he plays

chords in it then he goes to single

notes and there's spaces in it and

John's part is just has its own space

it's got its own Groove to it and Chad

is doing his own thing and they're

really almost like an orchestra or

something it is it's it's an orchestral

Arrangement played on three instruments

there's very few bands that are like

that that really can kind of connect

through multiple generations and they've

been able to do that they're just

tapping into something that's really

happening and everyone can feel it not

Everyone likes it but I think even

people who don't like it if you go see

it you'll feel something's happening

absolutely something is happening and

it's it feels like it's bigger than the

guys on the stage like it's

some energetic transmission that's going

on and it's always there it's not like

they have good nights and they have bad

nights they do have good nights and bad

nights and it's always there right

regardless yeah I've never seen them

not just summon the energy of the planet

in their playe I want to play um

[Music]

s exp from China try to steal your

mind's eltion the little girls from

Sweden dream of Silver Screen quotation

and if you want these kind of dreams

it's California C

[Music]

it's the edge of the world in all of

Western

Civilization the sun may rise in the

east at least it's settled in a fin

location it's understood that Hollywood

s SC forication

[Music]

hey Sergeant bar while to break the

spell of Aging Celebrity Skin is this

your skin or is that war you're

waging first born

unicor High cool sof

po G of Califor

G of

[Music]

Cali gam of

Cali team of

[Music]

Califoria that is a fantastic vocal

performance by Anthony I was trying to

find out who mixed This Record do you

remember who mixed it we started doing

this thing with um

we called them

shootouts where we would

give three songs three different songs

from the album like the same three

different songs to three different

mixers to maybe six different

mixers and have them mix it and then we

would listen to them blind without

knowing who mixed

what and I I think it was this album

where we had an idea of what the album

was going to sound like and there was

one of the mixers

it really sounded exactly like we

thought it was going to sound and then

there was another one that was not like

we thought it was going to sound and we

loved it okay and we ended up going with

that one and I think that might have

been this one and it might have been

Ryan but I'm not sure okay let's I want

to talk about mixing and you're

listening like where's your place to go

to check a mix typically in the car okay

I like to listen in the car I can

remember with Tom Petty we were mixing

wild flowers and there was a rented

Toyota that Richard Dodd the engineer

had and that was our reference sound

system for wild flowers and we'd bring

cassette tapes from the studio out and

listen in the car and we would obviously

work on on the mix in the studio and

want it to sound great in the studio but

if it didn't sound good in the car it

didn't matter and it was always that was

the final the final test was was the car

nowadays people listen on phones yeah

and records that weren't made to be

listened on phones but a great mix

sounds great anywhere these sounds all

all these songs sound phenomenal on the

iPhone did you ever imagine that people

would be carrying around little things

like I will tell you I remember in the

old days back when we still had tape

machines and stuff we used to have this

little speaker called an orone yep so

even though we would mix on bigger

speakers we would always listen in the

mix back on the orone and if it didn't

sound good on the orone which was not a

great sounding it was a sort of like the

equivalent of a transition radio and if

it didn't sound good on that something

was wrong there was also a tape machine

an

aex halfin tape machine that had a

speaker oh and that that could also

function instead of the if we didn't

have the orone if we had that half in

machine we would listen on that little

speaker and if it sounded good like if

you couldn't hear the bass on the little

speaker Basse might not be loud enough

right or the kick drum if you couldn't

hear the kick drum there we got to look

at it and you've had many different

people mix mix records over the years

absolutely whoever whoever wins the

shootout basically is okay is how it

works and the same with mastering many

different mastering people it ends up

being some of the same ones because they

end up winning a lot but um I'm always

open and if I hear a record that I think

sounds great I will test out either the

engineer or whoever bed it I'm always

trying

to find the best people and and another

other thing that's interesting is

sometimes it's the right person for the

right project where one mix engineer

just hears it in a way that's

interesting doesn't mean that they're

the right person to mix everything but

for some reason they have a a sense of

this project and really bring something

to the table so we're always looking for

anyone who can help make it as good as

it could be I want to move on to a

System of a Down great rolling suicide

[Music]

[Music]

[Music]

wake up wake up grab put a little makeup

I just the P away theup away why you

leave the keys up on the table here you

go create another table you wanted to

grab Rush put a little makeup you want

it to I just the with the shakeup you

want it to why you leave the K up on the

table you want it to I don't think you

trust

in

my self-righteous

Su

I

cry when Angels deserve to

die wake up wake up Grand should put a

little makeup I just got the I just got

the you the ks upon the

table you want to a little makeup you

want to I the the shake you want to the

K upon the

table okay so a song like this that is

really multiple genres put together

right I mean how do you how would you

say that I I remember playing this for

Tom Mel and him saying that's crazy

person's

music it's sounds so normal now I've

heard it so many times but the first

time I heard it I was like wow it's

definitely a head scratcher at first how

do they present a song like this to you

they just play it for

me the singing choruses are so

undeniable yes like the it and we stop

but it it where it goes from there is

really dramatic and beautiful and

Technicolor you know it's like it's wild

that the quirkiness of the verse and I

can remember talking to Serge like

really this is how it goes he's like

yeah this How it Go and he's like I'm

going to say it and then I'm going to

you know I'm going to sing it and then

I'm going to repeat it

and like

okay okay when you find a band like this

that is so

unique and I think a lot of the projects

that you pick to work with are so unique

there's really no other Chili Peppers

out there there's no System of Down out

there is that helpful with to find the

audience for music like this you think

that no it's the opposite it's much

harder yeah it has to be so good that

you like it in spite of the fact that

it's crazy person's music I remember

when we put out the first System of a

Down album the self-titled one yeah yeah

the program director at krock which was

the premiere station that would play

that kind of music in the world yeah

said and they're an LA band and it's a

la station they said we will never play

this band on our station never and again

A year later number one requested group

on the station there so it's like with

all of these things we're fighting

uphill because they're not really

supposed to be popular right they're too

weird you were label president and then

you're a producer they're two completely

different different roles are they

related at all well for me they are in

that I like weird things I like being

surprised I like hearing something I

haven't heard before I like being

challenged by

music and when something can do that and

I like it instead of just being annoyed

or hate it which can happen you know

when something's really is just not for

you not my cup of tea that happens a lot

MH but when it's something I haven't

heard before and it's really compelling

and exciting to listen to I want to

nurture it now with system of it down I

can't I don't think I thought this is

going to be as as popular with none of

the Bands none of the artists I work

with do I think this is going to be

popular it wouldn't be realistic you

know if you saw system of down when I

saw System of a Down playing at The

Viper Room 200 people going crazy

and them doing sort of these like um

Armenian folk dances and playing heavy

metal like I laughed the whole show it

was ridiculous yeah but I loved it yeah

but any thoughts of like this is going

to be big couldn't you could not have

that thought it would be

insane but I loved it so it made sense

it made sense it's based on the emotion

of it more than the where does this this

fit I never I never consider where does

this fit it's something I wrote In the

book The Audience comes last yeah I I

really believe that not because um it's

if you start making decisions based on

what you think they'll like you're going

to water it down the best version of it

is the real version and then some people

will love it and some people hate it and

it's okay that's how it's supposed to be

right if you water it down to for more

people to like it then the people who

like it won't like like it as much and

for the other people it'll be it'll be

passable it'll be okay middle of the

road wants to be middle of the

road a lot of people apparently

unfortunately I don't know I don't know

it seems strange to me I thought that

was a trick question right no it seems

strange to me no I agree 100% okay this

is an incredibly important collaboration

that you had with Johnny Cash I'll start

with this

[Music]

I hurt

myself

today to see if I still

feel I

focus on the

pain the only thing that's real

the needle tears the

hole the old familiar

sting try to kill it all

way but I

remember

everything what have I

become my sweetest is

friend

everyone I

know goes

away in the

A and you could have it

[Music]

all my Empire of

dirt I will let you down

I will make you

[Music]

Hur I wear this Crown of

Thorns upon my Liar's

chair full of broken thoughts

I

cannot

repair beneath the stains of

time the

feelings

disappear you are someone

else I am still right

[Music]

here what have I

[Music]

become my sweetest

friend

everyone I

know goes

away in the

end and you could have it

all my

Empire of dirt

I will let you

down I will make you

hurt if I could start

again A Million Miles

Away I would keep

myself I would

find a way

now that song I couldn't stop yeah tell

me about the choice of that song at that

time I had already made Five albums with

Johnny this was on the sixth album and

we were always looking for songs he

would write one or two songs typically

on an album and then the rest would be

covers and what I came to realize was

the thing that

would the things that worked

best the key was the lyrics and that if

the lyrics were right it didn't really

matter what genre the music was or where

it came from I remember one of the early

ones we did a sound garden song I was

rusty cage cage and that was one of the

first ones where Johnny I remember

sending him the the Chris you know the

Chris Cornell version sound Garten

version and he listened to it and he's

like you what are you thinking like I

can't sing that um if you know it would

be interesting can you play can you play

a minute not of that can you play a

minute of the 9in nails version of her

because it's it's interesting to hear

cuz when I sent him the 9inch nail song

he just thought I was crazy but listen

to it and you'll you'll

[Applause]

see

I hurt myself

today to see if I still feel

I focus on the

pain the only thing that's

real the

needle te a

whole the old

familiar

State try to kill it all away

but I

remember

[Music]

[Music]

everything you know it's very faithful

actually minus the really dissonant

chord that's in there yeah it's very

faithful to the original the sound

like in trans version this beautiful

song is buried yes in this sound and

that's what he was going for and it's

beautiful it's a it closes a magnificent

album yeah but when I played that for

Johnny he didn't hear the song Were You

There When you played it for him person

I sent him a CD a burned CD but probably

25 potential songs and that was number

one I remember because and then he when

he called me back he didn't respond he

didn't respond to that one he responded

maybe to a couple of others and then the

next CD I sent him it was number one

again it's one of the only songs that I

I probably sent him three times uh in

these compilations I would send of songs

to consider and he never responded and

then finally I said there's that song

that I sent you and um and he's like

yeah I don't hear it at all

and then I think I might have done a

demo I think smoke I was in the studio

with Smoky hormell working on something

else and I had Smokey Play the acoustic

part and I might have sang the vocal

myself just as a demo of like more like

what the Johnny verion would be like and

I said it can sound like this just read

the lyrics yeah yeah and um and I think

that was what convince me he's like okay

I'll only do it when we're together

because sometimes I would send songs and

he would have musicians in he was too

ill to travel and

um we would get together on occasion but

we were working a lot at that time

because he wasn't able to he wasn't able

to tour he wasn't able to travel um he

could only sing when he could sing so he

would try singing every day but he

couldn't sing a lot of days yeah so it

it we couldn't be in the same room I

would be there forever and very little

would get done um and he was also really

down on himself when he couldn't do it

so it would be be frustrating so we set

it up where he could work at his house

musicians would show up every day they

would record every day and if they would

get anything that would be the basis

that we would start with to work from

but this was one he said he didn't want

to do that way he wanted to do this one

when we were together and he was

planning on coming to California it was

probably might have been the last time

he came to California and we we recorded

it together with the band and everything

and I remember the buildup at the end of

the song We I had all these different

instruments in my studio and we Benmont

was the keyboard player in each spot

where it keeps developing we would try

every keyboard in the room just see what

sounds good try that one the con organ n

that's not it let's try this one try the

base the best pedals what does that do

and just like trying to find this and

it's another example of technically it

um not being done properly like at the

end of the song it gets completely

distorted and the meters are in the red

in the like it was and and um but it

sounded like that you know it's like

it's okay it's like I know technically

the equipment's not supposed to do these

things and technically it sounds it can

sound like it's

broken but that's the

sound that's what it is that's where the

emotion is right so it's okay you know

I've been in sessions where the speakers

have caught on fire for real for real

then you know you have something well

it's interesting you know you know at

least yeah something something happened

speaking of Rusty Cage it's another one

I wanted to talk about

here you wired me awake and hit me with

a hand of broken

Nails you tied my lead and pull my chain

to watch my blood begin to boow

oil but I'm going to

break I'm going to break my going to

break my rusty cage and

run I'm going to

break I'm going to break my going to

break my rusty

cage and

run too cold to start a fire I'm burning

diesel burning dinosaur

[Music]

bones I'll take the river Down The Still

Water and ride a pack of

dogs I'm going to

break I'm going to break my going to

break my rusty cage and

run I'm going to break I'm going to

break my going to break my rusty page

[Music]

and

[Music]

run when the forest Burns along the

road like God's eyes in my

headlight when the dogs are looking for

their

bones and it's raining ice picks on your

steel

sh I'm going to

break I'm going to break

my I'm going to break my rusty cage and

run I'm going to

break I'm going to break

my going to break my rusty cage and

run I'm going to

break I'm going to break

my going toak break my rusty cage and

run I'm going to

break I'm going to break

my going to break my rusty

[Music]

[Applause]

cage

now that sounds like a Johnny Cash song

yeah I forgot that the band came in in

the second half I didn't I didn't

remember that it was cool good surprise

when he gets to the bridge and he does

the spoken word it's so Johnny Cash yeah

when you send him that song though he he

was well play a little bit of the sound

guarden version and you'll see why

[Applause]

[Music]

[Applause]

[Music]

[Applause]

[Music]

[Music]

oh you me awake can hit me with a hand

of broken nails

yeah you T my lead and hold my chain to

watch my blood begin to

Bo but I'm going to

break I'm going to break mine I'm going

to break my rusty C

you yeah I'm going to

break I'm going to break my I'm going to

break my RO in

[Music]

G and

so he heard that and he's thinking what

am I what are you thinking what are you

thinking have you ever heard how I sound

have you ever heard have you ever heard

me sing have you ever heard any of the

music I've ever made over 50

years and yet he you guys made it a

Johnny Cash song we did I love Rusty K

just one of my favorite sound garden

songs and um I remember when I heard

Johnny's version I thought

that's

amazing I mean

so so great that whole second album Tom

peny and the Heartbreakers with the band

and the way it started was um Tom was

going through a

divorce and kind of in

a weird place and he loves to play bass

and he loves Johnny Cash okay and I said

I'm making an album with Johnny Cash you

want to you want to play bass he's like

abs absolutely it playing base yeah okay

and then I asked Mike if he would come

and play and then it ended up being all

of the Heartbreakers but we had it set

up where anyone could pick up any

instrument and play it but for the most

part I mean Tom did play some he might

have played some guitar might have

played some piano but for the most part

wanted to play bass just cuz it was fun

for him and everyone else just picked up

whatever was interesting and sometimes

even we would do one take it's like oh

let me let me switch from guitar to

piano and see what that sounds like and

really a fun session Johnny at the time

when you first started working with him

and I've heard you talk about this that

he was

playing um you know the kind of clubs

like dinner clubs or something like that

dinner theater was kind of like where

Aerosmith was at the time he'd been

dropped from two labels he probably

hadn't had a popular record in 25 years

yeah and the popularity of these records

did that surprise him it completely blew

his mind

he couldn't believe it he loved it he

loved the acceptance of young people on

the first album we put

out it really changed everything and

then when hurt happened and it was

really a big hit which again was not

expected he was

ecstatic it was really a beautiful

um a beautiful life Arc that he had all

the success

and then went through a little bit of a

down period and then he had the most

success in the se he was the biggest

selling artist on Columbia Records he

sold more records than everyone all the

other artists on Columbia combined wow

and then they dropped them yeah and then

he signed to Mercury and then they

dropped him and then he was just um in

his

mind he was done you

know and when we met the first time he

he he didn't know anything about me he

didn't know who I was but he didn't he

he was more curious why I was interested

why would anybody be interested that was

the

feeling what do you what do you think

you can do with me that no one else has

done for the last 25 years and what did

you say I said let's just make something

great what did the songs that you want

to sing like play me the songs that you

grew up singing and and I didn't I

didn't know I just said I just have a

feeling something good will happen

Johnny's gone Tom's Gone Chris Cornell's

Gone Chris Cornell's gone when you hear

them they're here though kind of like we

were talking about yesterday yeah time

travel yeah does it ever get you down

though thinking about it h I would say I

miss them mhm I still feel connected to

them and I and I do miss

them but it's

it's the way it is like it's like the

cycle of life

we're that's where we're all going

that's how it works I want to ask you

about creativity because this is a topic

that you talk about in your book if

someone doesn't Discover a piece of

music that someone else will at some

point there's a stream of ideas out

there that you just have to connect into

yeah how do you get better at doing that

I think what's helpful is to have a

confidence in when you feel it to act on

it because when you feel it if you don't

act on it chances are someone else will

do it what I would say like tuning the

antenna is really paying attention to

what's going on in

you and noticing what are the things

that really light you up what are the

things that take your breath away and it

could be in music but it could be in

nature it could be

anywhere why why do the what happens

when you see something in a movie that

you're like can't believe it happened

and you get really taken by it or when

you see a dramatic Sunset what happens

and tune into that feeling of I would

call it

awe and then when you're making

things that's kind of what we're

reaching for there's not a formula to

get there but and the only way you know

that it happens is when you can feel it

inside it's like it's a this internal

process of you lean

forward you want to hear what happens

next you're Cur you know it it Sparks

your curiosity you know if you want to

stop it you know that that's not that

experience these are experiences that

you want you wish could go on forever

they're

ecstatic and finding those ecstatic

experience and being when you're making

things being patient enough to be

surprised by them cuz that's that's how

it happens it doesn't happen rarely

happens through intention it happens

more by accident while you're planning

something else it it comes upon you and

you recognize it in the moment like the

first giant cash album we made wasn't

planned to be that it was those were

demos recorded in my living room of him

playing me songs that we were they were

demos to figure out which songs we were

going to record in the studio with a

band that's what they

were they were recorded properly but

only for my purposes not for right never

thought they would be a record it wasn't

the idea wasn't Let's do an acoustic

record at all the idea was let's figure

out what songs are interesting for you

to sing and then we'll figure out how to

record them mhm and then we went in with

went in with Johnny and at least two

different bands at two different times

playing those

songs and they weren't better and even

though we have the best musicians and

we're spending all this money in the

studio and it wasn't better the stuff we

recorded in the living room was had more

emotion to it we didn't know that in

advance and allowing you know being open

enough that just because you put time

and eff effort or have experts working

on it or

um any of the things that make you think

it's

better it always comes back to close

your eyes and listen which is the

sometimes it's the five minute demo

right that's better than you've heard so

many cases where people talk about the

records not really good well the demos

were so great it's an old story right

but if the demos are great then and if

you don't beat

then that's the record and it's okay

right it's

2024 now when we're making this uh

interview I call them conversations yeah

is it difficult for people to be

original when so much music has been

written no not at all it's everything's

already been done and your job is to

find the new way to do

it and it we it happens all the time and

one of

the magic pieces of the formula is when

things that are not normally put

together are put together the example of

AOS Smith and rund DMC right that was

again it wasn't done with the idea of it

being popular but it was an unusual

combination and the unusual combination

allowed something to happen let Zeppelin

have a song called dire maker mhm I

didn't know this but that's their

attempt at playing Reay Reay yeah it

doesn't sound like Reay no it sounds

like a cool Ed Zeppelin song right so

it's different because they're different

they they interpret music in their way

so starting with things that exist in

the

world and putting them through your

filter you might find something you know

James Brown started I didn't know this I

just learned this recently from new

documentary James Brown started as a

little Richard almost a little Richard

cover act and sometimes when Little

Richard couldn't make a show James Brown

would fill in for him I never made that

connection before but then he became

James Brown right what is your Discovery

mechanism for new music typically um

usually it's Word of Mouth someone

someone suggests listening to something

or I just come across something in the

world um there's an album I made uh

album that came out came out this year

or last year Marcus King yeah I know

Marcus um I just came across

him playing he was playing i' had never

heard of him before he was playing uh at

the Grand Old

opri I think he was 22 years old at the

time and I saw this guy on video on

YouTube blew me away contacted him and

we made this really cool album and he's

amazing we talked yesterday a bit about

YouTube this is going to live on YouTube

this video um one of the things about

you YouTube is that you can find just

about anything there especially stuff

that's unreleased or that is not in

print anywhere we live in a time where

our phones can carry all types of music

do you think that music is devalued in

any way because of that or it's just a

convenience of the modern world I think

both are true I think the convenience is

incredible I love being able to listen

to whatever I want whenever I want

wherever I am and it has change the way

we listen so

that in the past when you would buy a

particular album and live with that

album you had a different relationship

to it than when it's something that's

just in the

Stream and even today when a new album

by an album artist that I love comes out

I probably don't listen to it as much as

I would have in those

days I don't know if it's a negative or

a positive it just is it just is what it

is I suppose I could choose to force

myself to listen as much as I used to

but this feels it feels okay Rick I

appreciate you having me here today this

has been amazing I look forward to

um to seeing what you do here over the

next few years and uh what kind of music

you're making and uh once again it's

such an honor to to be here and talk

talk to you cool my pleasure thanks even

though we're done can I play a couple

songs absolutely play um pull up Marcus

King there's a song on his album I'd

love you to hear Marcus King came by my

house when he was 16 years old with his

dad and he played for me and sang and he

was amazing he unbelievable unbelievable

he's unbelievable uh song called Delila

is it on mood swings yeah yeah here it

is

[Applause]

when I first met

you didn't know a damn

thing just said out to try to find my

way