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1
00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:12,074
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2
00:00:42,242 --> 00:00:45,044
(switches on machine)
3
00:00:47,447 --> 00:00:49,314
(knocking on door)
4
00:00:53,386 --> 00:00:56,155
Hello. I'm Mr. Williams.
Thank you for coming.
5
00:00:56,157 --> 00:00:58,357
Please? And you are?
6
00:00:58,359 --> 00:01:00,692
- Fred Miller.
- You must be?
7
00:01:00,694 --> 00:01:02,361
Wallace. James Wallace.
8
00:01:02,363 --> 00:01:05,531
Great. Please. Have a seat.
9
00:01:08,234 --> 00:01:11,403
Now before we do anything else,
allow me to pay you.
10
00:01:11,405 --> 00:01:14,373
Please check that both names
are spelled correctly.
11
00:01:14,375 --> 00:01:17,543
You understand this is yours
simply for coming to the lab.
12
00:01:17,545 --> 00:01:20,579
From now on, no matter what
happens, the money is yours.
13
00:01:20,581 --> 00:01:22,915
I'll have to have
you sign a receipt.
14
00:01:23,783 --> 00:01:26,452
There you go. Now,
psychologists have developed
15
00:01:26,454 --> 00:01:29,121
several theories on
how humans learn.
16
00:01:29,123 --> 00:01:31,757
Uh, for example, it might help
to reward a person.
17
00:01:31,759 --> 00:01:33,492
Sometimes it helps
to punish them.
18
00:01:33,494 --> 00:01:35,594
We do know that punishment,
thank you very much,
19
00:01:35,596 --> 00:01:38,697
is a powerful incentive towards
learning. For example,
20
00:01:38,699 --> 00:01:42,468
when a parent spanks a child.
However, we know little about
21
00:01:42,470 --> 00:01:44,837
the effect of punishment on
learning because almost
22
00:01:44,839 --> 00:01:48,507
no scientific studies have been
done of it on human beings.
23
00:01:49,576 --> 00:01:52,377
Now, one of you will play
the role of "learner",
24
00:01:52,379 --> 00:01:53,712
who will receive a mild
punishment
25
00:01:53,714 --> 00:01:56,615
if he answers incorrectly
to a series of questions.
26
00:01:56,617 --> 00:01:59,685
That punishment will be
administered by a "teacher".
27
00:01:59,687 --> 00:02:02,588
What kind of punishment
are we talking about?
28
00:02:02,590 --> 00:02:04,590
Well, first, let's determine
which of you
29
00:02:04,592 --> 00:02:07,292
will be "learner"
and which will be "teacher."
30
00:02:07,827 --> 00:02:09,495
If you'll just choose one.
31
00:02:10,396 --> 00:02:11,597
Good.
32
00:02:13,733 --> 00:02:15,300
Teacher.
33
00:02:15,302 --> 00:02:17,503
I guess I'm the learner, huh?
34
00:02:17,505 --> 00:02:19,171
Good.
35
00:02:20,640 --> 00:02:23,475
This is the machine for
generating electric shocks.
36
00:02:24,477 --> 00:02:25,611
Go ahead.
37
00:02:29,716 --> 00:02:32,184
Now, let's set up the learner
to receive some punishment.
38
00:02:32,186 --> 00:02:33,986
If you'll just follow me
into the next room.
39
00:02:33,988 --> 00:02:36,255
Is it OK if I leave my hat here?
40
00:02:36,257 --> 00:02:38,423
Yes, that's fine.
41
00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:42,694
Now you might wanna
remove the jacket.
42
00:02:43,062 --> 00:02:44,563
Go ahead and have a seat.
43
00:02:45,198 --> 00:02:48,367
Now, when you push one of
these four buttons,
44
00:02:48,369 --> 00:02:50,569
this box will signal
a light in the other room,
45
00:02:50,571 --> 00:02:52,971
telling the teacher how you're
responding to the questions.
46
00:02:52,973 --> 00:02:54,806
(stammers) What kind
of questions?
47
00:02:54,808 --> 00:03:00,045
Word pairs. "Strong arm",
"black curtain", and so forth.
48
00:03:00,047 --> 00:03:02,080
Now, we want you
to memorize them.
49
00:03:02,082 --> 00:03:04,716
The teacher will first read them
as word pairs,
50
00:03:04,718 --> 00:03:08,187
"strong arm", for example, then
he'll read only the first word,
51
00:03:08,189 --> 00:03:11,023
"strong", followed by
a series of word choices.
52
00:03:11,025 --> 00:03:13,559
"Back, arm, branch, and push".
53
00:03:13,561 --> 00:03:16,228
Your job is to remember
which of those words
54
00:03:16,230 --> 00:03:18,564
was originally paired with
the first word, "strong".
55
00:03:18,566 --> 00:03:19,598
- Arm.
- Right.
56
00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:22,668
You'd indicate that by pushing
one of these buttons here.
57
00:03:22,670 --> 00:03:25,437
If you had thought it was the
first word I had read, "back",
58
00:03:25,439 --> 00:03:27,272
you'd push this first button.
59
00:03:27,274 --> 00:03:29,274
If you thought it was
the second word, "arm",
60
00:03:29,276 --> 00:03:31,510
you'd push the second button,
so on and so forth with
61
00:03:31,512 --> 00:03:33,979
third and fourth word choices.
62
00:03:33,981 --> 00:03:35,881
Now, if you get
the answer incorrect,
63
00:03:35,883 --> 00:03:38,450
you will receive
an electric shock.
64
00:03:38,452 --> 00:03:41,520
Would you please roll up
your right arm sleeve, please?
65
00:03:41,522 --> 00:03:45,157
Would you just help me strap him
in to limit any excess movement?
66
00:03:45,159 --> 00:03:47,092
How far do you think he'll go?
67
00:03:47,094 --> 00:03:48,827
- Too soon to tell.
- Williams: Now this is
68
00:03:48,829 --> 00:03:51,530
connected to the shock generator
in the next room.
69
00:03:51,532 --> 00:03:54,233
- Electrode paste.
- And electrode paste,
70
00:03:54,235 --> 00:03:56,802
to eliminate any excess burns
or blisters.
71
00:03:56,804 --> 00:04:00,305
Um, you know, I should say that
a couple of years ago,
72
00:04:00,307 --> 00:04:02,774
- in the West Haven
VA Hospital--
- Mm-hm--
73
00:04:02,776 --> 00:04:06,645
they determined that I had
a slight heart condition.
74
00:04:06,647 --> 00:04:11,683
Nothing serious, but how
dangerous are these shocks?
75
00:04:12,218 --> 00:04:14,620
Well, although the shocks may be
extremely painful,
76
00:04:14,622 --> 00:04:17,456
they cause
no permanent tissue damage.
77
00:04:18,458 --> 00:04:19,825
Oh. OK.
78
00:04:20,660 --> 00:04:23,262
Well, we'll be communicating
from the next room.
79
00:04:23,264 --> 00:04:25,764
Stanley: The lab coat, I decided to make it grey.
80
00:04:26,165 --> 00:04:28,500
White would seem too medical.
81
00:04:46,119 --> 00:04:47,452
- Fred: Okay.
- Williams: Thank you.
82
00:04:47,454 --> 00:04:50,055
Now, if he gets the answer
incorrect, you administer
83
00:04:50,057 --> 00:04:54,192
the shock by flipping one of
these switches here. You see?
84
00:04:54,194 --> 00:04:56,795
Each switch has
a little red light above it.
85
00:04:56,797 --> 00:05:00,599
Now, to give you, the teacher,
an idea of the amount of shock
86
00:05:00,601 --> 00:05:03,335
the learner will be receiving,
we think it's only fair
87
00:05:03,337 --> 00:05:06,505
you receive a sample shock
yourself. Is that all right?
88
00:05:06,507 --> 00:05:09,007
- Uh- huh.
- OK, just roll up your sleeve.
89
00:05:09,375 --> 00:05:12,210
Stanley: Life can only be understood backwards
90
00:05:12,212 --> 00:05:14,546
but it must be lived forwards.
91
00:05:15,248 --> 00:05:16,748
Williams: Good.
92
00:05:16,949 --> 00:05:21,320
Now, I'll ask you to close your
eyes and just estimate for me
93
00:05:21,322 --> 00:05:24,022
the amount of volts
you think you're receiving.
94
00:05:25,658 --> 00:05:27,893
OK, close.
95
00:05:27,895 --> 00:05:29,928
(machine whirs)
96
00:05:29,930 --> 00:05:33,799
This part, this part's where
the experiment really begins.
97
00:05:37,003 --> 00:05:39,071
(machine buzzes)
98
00:05:39,073 --> 00:05:41,173
(switches off)
99
00:05:41,808 --> 00:05:44,376
Now, just use this scale here
to tell me the amount of volts
100
00:05:44,378 --> 00:05:46,978
you think you received
in the sample shock.
101
00:05:46,980 --> 00:05:49,348
Pfff, 195?
102
00:05:49,350 --> 00:05:52,751
No, actually, that's incorrect.
It was 45 volts.
103
00:05:53,686 --> 00:05:55,921
(pen scratches)
104
00:05:55,923 --> 00:05:58,056
All right.
105
00:06:01,327 --> 00:06:06,231
OK, learner, uh, I'm going
to read you the words,
106
00:06:06,233 --> 00:06:08,500
and then I'm gonna
repeat the first word
107
00:06:08,502 --> 00:06:12,637
and you're going to tell me
the pair for that word. OK?
108
00:06:12,639 --> 00:06:15,874
Williams: He doesn't have a
microphone but he can hear you.
109
00:06:15,876 --> 00:06:18,944
Keep it moving, understand?
Remember, each time he gives
110
00:06:18,946 --> 00:06:22,013
a wrong answer, move up one
switch on the shock generator.
111
00:06:22,015 --> 00:06:25,550
It is important that you follow
the procedure exactly.
112
00:06:25,552 --> 00:06:28,086
(clears throat) OK, here we go.
113
00:06:29,021 --> 00:06:31,957
"Blue girl. Nice day.
114
00:06:31,959 --> 00:06:34,926
Fat neck. Green ink.
115
00:06:34,928 --> 00:06:37,562
Rich boy. Fast bird.
116
00:06:37,564 --> 00:06:40,565
Blunt arrow. Soft hair.
117
00:06:40,567 --> 00:06:43,535
Cool cave. Gold paint."
118
00:06:45,304 --> 00:06:47,739
In the first word.
119
00:06:47,741 --> 00:06:49,941
"Blue: Boy,
120
00:06:49,943 --> 00:06:52,344
girl, grass, bat."
121
00:06:52,512 --> 00:06:55,480
- (buzzer)
- Correct.
122
00:06:57,116 --> 00:06:59,217
"Soft rug..."
123
00:06:59,219 --> 00:07:01,553
Stanley:
He finds his way into it.
124
00:07:01,555 --> 00:07:05,190
With increasing confidence he finds a rhythm, a groove.
125
00:07:05,192 --> 00:07:07,325
- (buzzer)
- That is incorrect.
126
00:07:07,327 --> 00:07:09,027
Until...
127
00:07:09,029 --> 00:07:10,595
90 volts.
128
00:07:10,597 --> 00:07:12,931
- (buzzer)
- (James groans)
129
00:07:18,304 --> 00:07:20,071
(clears throat)
130
00:07:20,073 --> 00:07:22,507
- Fred: Um...
- Here we go.
131
00:07:22,509 --> 00:07:27,045
"Gold: Dollar, necklace,
moon, paint."
132
00:07:28,147 --> 00:07:30,215
(buzzer)
133
00:07:30,217 --> 00:07:32,350
Incorrect.
134
00:07:32,352 --> 00:07:35,554
120 volts, gold paint.
135
00:07:35,556 --> 00:07:36,721
- (buzzer)
- (James groans)
136
00:07:36,723 --> 00:07:41,460
"Hard: Stone, head, bread,
work."
137
00:07:41,861 --> 00:07:42,961
(buzzer)
138
00:07:45,832 --> 00:07:47,866
Incorrect.
139
00:07:47,868 --> 00:07:49,434
135 volts.
140
00:07:49,436 --> 00:07:51,770
- (buzzer)
- (grunts)
141
00:07:57,310 --> 00:07:59,444
(sighs) OK.
142
00:07:59,612 --> 00:08:04,850
"Wet: Night, grass, duck,
cloth."
143
00:08:05,351 --> 00:08:06,751
(buzzer)
144
00:08:06,753 --> 00:08:10,789
Incorrect. 150 volts, wet duck.
145
00:08:11,624 --> 00:08:13,859
- (buzzer)
- (grunts)
146
00:08:13,861 --> 00:08:15,927
It really hurts.
147
00:08:15,929 --> 00:08:18,063
Mmm.
148
00:08:19,565 --> 00:08:21,333
Stanley: How do you know when a change,
149
00:08:21,335 --> 00:08:23,502
a true and lasting change,
150
00:08:23,504 --> 00:08:25,303
is about to overtake your life?
151
00:08:25,305 --> 00:08:27,572
Fred: "...grass, man, girl..."
152
00:08:33,579 --> 00:08:35,847
- Eighth floor, please.
- The same.
153
00:08:48,361 --> 00:08:50,695
Are we going to the same party?
154
00:08:51,464 --> 00:08:53,031
Probably.
155
00:08:53,033 --> 00:08:54,733
You know Doris Eissenman?
156
00:08:54,735 --> 00:08:57,068
Saul Harwood's invited me.
157
00:08:58,104 --> 00:08:59,538
Ah.
158
00:08:59,540 --> 00:09:01,873
I've never heard of him.
159
00:09:05,945 --> 00:09:07,779
Shall we continue talking,
or wait till
160
00:09:07,781 --> 00:09:10,415
- we're properly introduced?
- (elevator bell rings)
161
00:09:10,417 --> 00:09:12,751
(door rattles open)
162
00:09:20,192 --> 00:09:22,160
(indistinct chatter)
163
00:09:22,162 --> 00:09:24,796
(piano music plays)
164
00:09:45,418 --> 00:09:46,585
You're a dancer?
165
00:09:46,587 --> 00:09:49,955
Oh, well,
I studied, here and in Paris.
166
00:09:50,790 --> 00:09:52,958
- I work in an office now.
- Mmm-hm.
167
00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:55,493
- What about you?
- I'm at Yale.
168
00:09:55,962 --> 00:09:59,631
Limited dance skills, although
I did spend some time in Paris.
169
00:09:59,633 --> 00:10:02,467
- (buzzer)
- What are you studying at Yale?
170
00:10:02,469 --> 00:10:04,836
I teach, actually.
Social Relations.
171
00:10:04,838 --> 00:10:07,906
Did you just give that guy there
your phone number?
172
00:10:08,941 --> 00:10:11,910
So if I wanted your number
I can get it from him?
173
00:10:13,145 --> 00:10:15,280
Social Relations. (giggles)
174
00:10:15,715 --> 00:10:18,316
- What does that mean?
- It's a combination.
175
00:10:18,318 --> 00:10:20,652
Sociology, anthropology,
psychology.
176
00:10:21,187 --> 00:10:24,723
You know, basically covers
everything from
177
00:10:24,725 --> 00:10:26,992
the way people talk in elevators
to the study of
178
00:10:26,994 --> 00:10:29,561
role- playing, conformity,
authority.
179
00:10:29,563 --> 00:10:31,696
- (buzzer)
- Fred: Soft: Rug,
180
00:10:31,698 --> 00:10:35,100
pillow, hair, grass.
181
00:10:36,402 --> 00:10:37,802
(buzzer)
182
00:10:39,839 --> 00:10:42,173
Incorrect. A hundred and...
183
00:10:43,442 --> 00:10:45,610
sixty-five volts, strong shock.
184
00:10:45,612 --> 00:10:48,847
- (buzzer)
- James: Ah! Let me out of here!
185
00:10:48,849 --> 00:10:51,182
I told you, I have a heart condition.
186
00:10:51,184 --> 00:10:54,219
I will not be part of the experiment anymore!
187
00:10:54,221 --> 00:10:57,956
- He says he's not gonna go on.
- Please continue, teacher.
188
00:10:58,691 --> 00:11:01,192
He says
he doesn't want to go on.
189
00:11:01,194 --> 00:11:04,963
Well, whether the learner
likes it or not, he must go on
190
00:11:04,965 --> 00:11:07,699
until he's learned all the pairs
correctly.
191
00:11:07,701 --> 00:11:10,035
Please continue, teacher.
192
00:11:12,138 --> 00:11:13,271
Uh...
193
00:11:14,974 --> 00:11:18,176
(sighs) Calm down, concentrate.
194
00:11:19,712 --> 00:11:23,648
"Sad: Face, music,
195
00:11:23,650 --> 00:11:26,751
clown, girl."
196
00:11:27,286 --> 00:11:28,953
(buzzer)
197
00:11:30,389 --> 00:11:31,556
Incorrect.
198
00:11:31,558 --> 00:11:33,158
- 180 volts.
- (buzzer)
199
00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:37,028
James: Ahh! Dammit! Let me out, let me out!
200
00:11:37,030 --> 00:11:39,397
Stanley: He went all the way. Most of them do.
201
00:11:41,067 --> 00:11:42,934
"Sharp.
202
00:11:42,936 --> 00:11:45,270
Axe, needle, stick, blade."
203
00:11:48,140 --> 00:11:49,574
Williams: No response
from the learner
204
00:11:49,576 --> 00:11:51,609
must be interpreted as
a wrong answer.
205
00:11:51,611 --> 00:11:52,977
(scoffs)
206
00:11:53,245 --> 00:11:57,248
Stanley: Still laughing, trying to hide face with hand.
207
00:11:58,851 --> 00:12:01,252
Something's happening
to that man in there.
208
00:12:01,254 --> 00:12:03,755
Can you please go check that
everything's OK?
209
00:12:03,757 --> 00:12:05,557
Williams: Not once
we've started.
210
00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:07,425
Please continue, teacher.
211
00:12:07,427 --> 00:12:09,360
So you accept
all responsibility?
212
00:12:09,362 --> 00:12:12,330
Williams: The responsibility's
mine, correct.
213
00:12:12,332 --> 00:12:14,466
Continue, please.
214
00:12:16,702 --> 00:12:20,171
Teacher: "Wet:
Night, grass, dark, cloth."
215
00:12:21,173 --> 00:12:24,409
Stanley: Clenching fist, pushing it onto table.
216
00:12:25,411 --> 00:12:27,746
- (buzzer)
- (panicked laughter)
217
00:12:30,616 --> 00:12:33,785
- How are you holding up, Alan?
- Teacher: "Dollar: Necklace,
218
00:12:33,787 --> 00:12:37,288
moon, paint." 375 volts.
219
00:12:37,290 --> 00:12:39,491
Dangerous, severe shock.
220
00:12:39,493 --> 00:12:40,725
(James groans)
221
00:12:40,727 --> 00:12:45,697
(recording) Let me out of here,let me out. Get me out of here.
222
00:12:45,699 --> 00:12:48,533
You can't hold me in here. Get me out.
223
00:13:03,716 --> 00:13:06,584
- What is this?
- I just liked the picture.
224
00:13:06,586 --> 00:13:10,221
The colors... Don't you?
225
00:13:10,223 --> 00:13:12,223
Yeah.
226
00:13:12,225 --> 00:13:14,359
Take it. It's yours.
227
00:13:16,929 --> 00:13:19,264
Why don't you mail it to me?
228
00:13:23,702 --> 00:13:26,371
Or we could leave it here
and you can move in?
229
00:13:28,774 --> 00:13:31,109
That'd be easier, wouldn't it?
230
00:13:38,484 --> 00:13:43,154
"Wet: Night, grass, duck,
231
00:13:43,156 --> 00:13:45,290
cloth."
232
00:13:50,229 --> 00:13:52,397
"Wet duck."
233
00:13:52,399 --> 00:13:54,265
435 volts.
234
00:13:54,267 --> 00:13:55,500
(buzzer)
235
00:13:56,402 --> 00:13:57,602
Huh.
236
00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:02,473
Ohh.
237
00:14:02,475 --> 00:14:03,875
OK, um,
238
00:14:03,877 --> 00:14:07,278
"Brave: Woman, soldier,
239
00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:09,414
dog, horse."
240
00:14:14,587 --> 00:14:17,222
"Brave woman."
241
00:14:17,224 --> 00:14:19,357
450 volts.
242
00:14:22,294 --> 00:14:26,598
OK, what now?
I'm at the end at 450 volts.
243
00:14:27,066 --> 00:14:29,434
Williams: Continue, please.
244
00:14:29,436 --> 00:14:31,369
The last switch again.
245
00:14:31,371 --> 00:14:34,138
Yeah, but...
but he could be dead in there.
246
00:14:34,140 --> 00:14:36,875
Williams: The experiment
requires that you continue.
247
00:14:36,877 --> 00:14:38,743
Go on, please.
248
00:14:38,745 --> 00:14:40,912
And his health
doesn't mean anything?
249
00:14:40,914 --> 00:14:44,015
Whether the learner likes it
or not, we must continue.
250
00:14:44,017 --> 00:14:46,484
I'm sorry, look,
I don't mean to be rude, sir,
251
00:14:46,486 --> 00:14:49,087
but I think you should
go look in on him. I mean,
252
00:14:49,089 --> 00:14:52,257
all you have to do is look in on
him. Look into that door.
253
00:14:52,259 --> 00:14:53,858
'Cause I'm not
getting any noise,
254
00:14:53,860 --> 00:14:55,894
I'm not getting
no sound here.
255
00:14:55,896 --> 00:14:58,062
Williams: We must continue.
256
00:14:58,064 --> 00:15:01,366
Go on, please,
the next word is "white".
257
00:15:10,609 --> 00:15:12,944
(sighs)
258
00:15:18,751 --> 00:15:22,687
Teacher: "White: Cloud, horse,
259
00:15:23,455 --> 00:15:25,590
rock, house."
260
00:15:26,825 --> 00:15:28,860
White horse.
261
00:15:28,862 --> 00:15:30,595
450 volts again.
262
00:15:30,597 --> 00:15:32,030
(buzzer)
263
00:15:35,601 --> 00:15:37,001
"Fair.
264
00:15:37,803 --> 00:15:40,672
Price, rule, skin, sky."
265
00:15:42,474 --> 00:15:43,641
(coughs)
266
00:15:44,576 --> 00:15:47,278
Wrong. 450 again.
267
00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:48,680
(buzzer)
268
00:15:48,682 --> 00:15:52,650
All right, thank you.
We are done with the experiment.
269
00:15:52,652 --> 00:15:53,785
Teacher: OK.
270
00:15:53,919 --> 00:15:55,520
Williams: I'm just going
to speak with the learner.
271
00:15:55,522 --> 00:15:58,523
I think he might be
a little upset. In the meantime,
272
00:15:58,525 --> 00:16:00,925
my assistant would like
to ask you a few questions,
273
00:16:00,927 --> 00:16:04,429
- if you don't mind?
- Yeah, surely.
274
00:16:04,431 --> 00:16:06,497
Williams: Dr. Milgram?
275
00:16:06,499 --> 00:16:08,633
How do you do?
276
00:16:11,170 --> 00:16:14,339
Uh, first I'd like...
No, thank you.
277
00:16:14,907 --> 00:16:16,975
I'd like to ask you
some questions.
278
00:16:16,977 --> 00:16:18,476
Yes, surely.
279
00:16:22,915 --> 00:16:24,282
(clears throat)
280
00:16:24,284 --> 00:16:28,019
Uh, why did you give him,
the man in the other room,
281
00:16:28,021 --> 00:16:30,388
the learner, the shocks?
282
00:16:30,390 --> 00:16:33,958
Well, as you could see,
I wanted to stop 'cause
283
00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:36,861
each time you gave him a shock
the guy hollered.
284
00:16:36,863 --> 00:16:39,197
Did it sound as if
he was in pain?
285
00:16:40,866 --> 00:16:42,633
Yeah.
286
00:16:42,635 --> 00:16:45,636
Did he say he wanted you
to stop the experiment?
287
00:16:45,638 --> 00:16:47,305
Yes.
288
00:16:47,307 --> 00:16:50,108
Did he have
a right to stop the experiment?
289
00:16:51,577 --> 00:16:53,845
I don't know.
290
00:16:53,847 --> 00:16:55,980
Why didn't you stop,
at that point,
291
00:16:55,982 --> 00:16:58,716
- when he asked you to stop?
- Why didn't I stop?
292
00:16:58,718 --> 00:17:00,618
- Mm-hm.
- Well, 'cause...
293
00:17:00,620 --> 00:17:02,353
'Cause he told me to continue.
294
00:17:02,355 --> 00:17:05,590
Why did you listen to that man
and not the man in pain?
295
00:17:06,825 --> 00:17:08,559
(exhales)
296
00:17:10,462 --> 00:17:14,165
Well, 'cause... 'cause I thought
the experiment depended on me.
297
00:17:14,167 --> 00:17:17,301
- And nobody told me to stop.
- He asked you to stop.
298
00:17:18,037 --> 00:17:21,239
That... That's true,
but he's the, um,
299
00:17:22,508 --> 00:17:25,376
you know, the subject,
shall we say?
300
00:17:25,378 --> 00:17:27,745
Who was the...
301
00:17:27,747 --> 00:17:29,380
Who bore the responsibility
302
00:17:29,382 --> 00:17:32,350
for the fact this man was
being shocked?
303
00:17:36,455 --> 00:17:38,122
I don't know.
304
00:17:41,927 --> 00:17:45,363
Could you fill out items six
through 18 on the questionnaire
305
00:17:45,365 --> 00:17:48,599
in front of you, please?
Here's a pen.
306
00:17:55,674 --> 00:17:57,475
Ah, I get a little skittish.
307
00:17:57,477 --> 00:17:59,911
Uh... nervous.
308
00:18:00,879 --> 00:18:03,514
Williams: As I explained to
Mr. Wallace in the other room,
309
00:18:03,516 --> 00:18:06,617
this shock generator's actually
used for small animals
310
00:18:06,619 --> 00:18:10,555
for laboratory experiments.
Mice, rats, and so forth.
311
00:18:11,523 --> 00:18:14,292
The visual designation
is actually misleading.
312
00:18:14,294 --> 00:18:16,828
This shock generator's actually
been adjusted so that the shocks
313
00:18:16,830 --> 00:18:20,565
were just slightly stronger
than the shock you experienced.
314
00:18:20,567 --> 00:18:22,967
Are you all right?
315
00:18:22,969 --> 00:18:25,103
Yeah, I'm fine, you know.
316
00:18:25,637 --> 00:18:28,706
No hard feelings.
I probably would've done
317
00:18:28,708 --> 00:18:31,008
the same thing myself.
318
00:18:31,010 --> 00:18:32,410
Ciao.
319
00:18:35,380 --> 00:18:38,483
Each subject has a
reconciliation with the learner.
320
00:18:38,485 --> 00:18:40,418
We ask the subject
to maintain a secrecy
321
00:18:40,420 --> 00:18:43,254
so that future recruits
aren't tipped off.
322
00:18:43,256 --> 00:18:45,556
Down the line
we get more candid.
323
00:18:46,458 --> 00:18:48,059
The first thing
I wanna tell you is
324
00:18:48,061 --> 00:18:50,461
the man in the other room
wasn't being shocked.
325
00:18:50,463 --> 00:18:53,798
The only real shock was
the one that you felt early on.
326
00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:56,834
We're really interested in
studying your reaction
327
00:18:56,836 --> 00:19:00,304
to having to inflict pain on
someone you don't know.
328
00:19:00,306 --> 00:19:03,174
The experiment's about
obeying orders.
329
00:19:03,709 --> 00:19:06,711
The man in the other room
works with us as a team.
330
00:19:06,713 --> 00:19:08,513
Jim, you can come out now.
331
00:19:08,515 --> 00:19:11,716
He wasn't really being shocked,
he's perfectly fine.
332
00:19:11,718 --> 00:19:13,351
We weren't trying to fool you,
333
00:19:13,353 --> 00:19:16,220
we're just interested
in studying your reactions.
334
00:19:16,222 --> 00:19:18,556
- Teacher: Man, you dog.
- (Jim laughs)
335
00:19:19,158 --> 00:19:21,626
I... I was worried sick.
I thought I was--
336
00:19:21,628 --> 00:19:24,996
You're a good fella. No hard
feelings, no hard feelings.
337
00:19:25,697 --> 00:19:27,365
But you thought
you were really shocking him.
338
00:19:27,367 --> 00:19:29,367
When he wasn't making noise
anymore,
339
00:19:29,369 --> 00:19:32,370
that's when I was worried.
I didn't wanna go on with it.
340
00:19:32,372 --> 00:19:34,572
- Stanley: But you did go on.
- Yeah, but I did not want to.
341
00:19:34,574 --> 00:19:37,542
You saw how it was,
how I was fighting it.
342
00:19:38,243 --> 00:19:41,412
Well, you understand why
we had to do it this way.
343
00:19:41,414 --> 00:19:45,716
We wanted to get true reactions
from people, you see.
344
00:19:45,718 --> 00:19:49,287
You'll receive a copy of the
report when the project's over.
345
00:19:49,289 --> 00:19:51,589
Until then, we ask you not to
say anything.
346
00:19:51,591 --> 00:19:53,191
You may end up
talking to someone
347
00:19:53,193 --> 00:19:55,960
who is a potential participant.
348
00:19:56,695 --> 00:20:00,731
How do you feel about having
come down here and done this,
349
00:20:00,733 --> 00:20:02,500
now that you know?
350
00:20:02,502 --> 00:20:04,402
I mean...
351
00:20:04,404 --> 00:20:07,638
Now that I know the truth,
I don't mind.
352
00:20:08,373 --> 00:20:10,474
Thank you very much
for coming down.
353
00:20:10,476 --> 00:20:13,344
We certainly do appreciate you
giving us your time.
354
00:20:13,346 --> 00:20:16,380
- Yeah, yeah.
- Alan here will help you out.
355
00:20:16,382 --> 00:20:19,350
We think you'll find the report
very interesting.
356
00:20:19,352 --> 00:20:22,553
Thanks. Yeah, thank you.
357
00:20:27,226 --> 00:20:28,926
(sighing)
358
00:20:31,463 --> 00:20:35,132
I still get nervous.
You're cool as ice.
359
00:20:35,834 --> 00:20:38,536
Maybe all those years of
teaching high school
360
00:20:38,538 --> 00:20:41,172
- gives you sort of a--
- Jim: Poker face?
361
00:20:41,174 --> 00:20:43,808
Discipline, I was thinking.
362
00:20:43,810 --> 00:20:46,077
You're like a gravedigger.
363
00:20:46,079 --> 00:20:48,412
Williams: I think
you mean undertaker.
364
00:20:48,414 --> 00:20:52,283
The domino effect starts to kick
in, in the teacher's mind,
365
00:20:52,285 --> 00:20:54,385
once he assumes the role.
366
00:20:55,354 --> 00:20:58,422
Get some women in here.
Get my wife in this seat,
367
00:20:58,424 --> 00:21:01,292
we've got nine kids,
the first squawk
368
00:21:01,294 --> 00:21:03,027
she'd stop the whole shebang.
369
00:21:03,029 --> 00:21:04,895
Nine kids.
Are you sure about that?
370
00:21:04,897 --> 00:21:09,166
Oh, yeah. I have enough saved up
to give 'em each a pair of socks
371
00:21:09,168 --> 00:21:11,035
if the electricity gets me.
372
00:21:11,037 --> 00:21:14,105
You're a brave man, Jim.
All right, next subject's due.
373
00:21:14,107 --> 00:21:15,806
I should get going.
374
00:21:20,579 --> 00:21:23,914
¶ Some enchanted evening ¶
375
00:21:23,916 --> 00:21:26,884
¶ You will meet a stranger ¶
376
00:21:30,622 --> 00:21:32,957
I was born in the Bronx, 1933.
377
00:21:33,859 --> 00:21:36,127
My father's from Hungary,
my mother Romania,
378
00:21:36,129 --> 00:21:39,764
Jewish immigrants. It was a
matter of chance they arrived
379
00:21:39,766 --> 00:21:42,667
in the US as children and
managed to raise a family in
380
00:21:42,669 --> 00:21:45,870
New York instead of being swept
up into the extermination camps
381
00:21:45,872 --> 00:21:48,806
and murdered by the Nazis, like
millions of others like them
382
00:21:48,808 --> 00:21:50,074
in Eastern Europe.
383
00:21:51,176 --> 00:21:52,510
That's really what's behind
384
00:21:52,512 --> 00:21:56,614
the obedience experiments.
The inkling I was chasing,
385
00:21:57,549 --> 00:21:59,450
the thing that troubled me.
386
00:22:02,487 --> 00:22:05,956
How do civilized human beings
participate
387
00:22:05,958 --> 00:22:08,192
in destructive, inhumane acts?
388
00:22:08,194 --> 00:22:12,730
How was genocide implemented so
systematically, so efficiently?
389
00:22:12,732 --> 00:22:15,099
And how did the perpetrators of
these murders
390
00:22:15,101 --> 00:22:16,834
live with themselves?
391
00:22:29,881 --> 00:22:32,983
My daughter, Michele,
a precocious child
392
00:22:32,985 --> 00:22:35,686
who at this point in the story
hasn't yet been born,
393
00:22:35,688 --> 00:22:38,723
used to tell the kids at school:
"My dad's a psychologist,
394
00:22:38,725 --> 00:22:41,659
but not the kind who talks to
people lying down.
395
00:22:41,661 --> 00:22:44,028
He's an experimental
psychologist.
396
00:22:45,263 --> 00:22:47,598
He does experiments."
397
00:22:51,937 --> 00:22:54,271
First let's determine which of
you will be "learner"
398
00:22:54,273 --> 00:22:56,707
and which will be "teacher."
399
00:23:01,380 --> 00:23:02,813
"Teacher."
400
00:23:02,815 --> 00:23:05,750
They both say that.
And no one's caught on?
401
00:23:05,752 --> 00:23:08,386
- Not a soul.
- Not the corporate manager,
402
00:23:08,388 --> 00:23:11,255
the banker, the plumber,
the Good Humor man.
403
00:23:11,257 --> 00:23:13,691
The Good Humor man
was actually vicious.
404
00:23:13,693 --> 00:23:16,794
Crude mesomorph of obviously
limited intelligence.
405
00:23:16,796 --> 00:23:20,297
The script has kind of momentum.
It carries them along.
406
00:23:20,299 --> 00:23:22,500
- Men only?
- Every hour.
407
00:23:22,502 --> 00:23:25,169
It's getting to be a blur,
really. (laughs)
408
00:23:25,171 --> 00:23:28,472
So you lead them both, both
the teacher and the learner,
409
00:23:28,474 --> 00:23:32,243
into the, uh... electric chair?
410
00:23:32,245 --> 00:23:33,944
(laughing)
411
00:23:33,946 --> 00:23:35,579
Well, we don't call it that,
412
00:23:35,581 --> 00:23:39,417
but, yes, if you'll follow me
into the next room, please?
413
00:23:44,823 --> 00:23:46,390
Here's my home.
414
00:23:46,392 --> 00:23:48,959
I think I'd go nuts in this
little room all day.
415
00:23:48,961 --> 00:23:52,463
- Well, they keep me busy. Agh!
- (laughing)
416
00:23:52,465 --> 00:23:54,131
Actually, I have
a heart condition.
417
00:23:54,133 --> 00:23:55,232
Really?
418
00:23:55,234 --> 00:23:57,935
It does give you authenticity,
I think, in the part.
419
00:23:57,937 --> 00:24:01,205
But I think I'm a better actor
than I am accountant.
420
00:24:01,207 --> 00:24:02,540
It's nearly time for
the next one.
421
00:24:02,542 --> 00:24:06,744
- Oh.
- Is somebody in there?
422
00:24:06,746 --> 00:24:08,579
Maybe Alan.
423
00:24:08,581 --> 00:24:10,915
- Shall we join him?
- Sure.
424
00:24:13,718 --> 00:24:15,986
To give you, the teacher,
an idea of how much shock
425
00:24:15,988 --> 00:24:18,189
the learner will be receiving,
we think it's only fair
426
00:24:18,191 --> 00:24:21,425
you receive a sample shock
yourself. Is that all right?
427
00:24:21,427 --> 00:24:23,561
- Fair enough.
- Give me your right arm.
428
00:24:23,563 --> 00:24:25,729
This is the only real shock,
right?
429
00:24:25,731 --> 00:24:27,097
Mm-hm.
430
00:24:27,099 --> 00:24:28,899
Have you done it?
431
00:24:28,901 --> 00:24:31,168
Been shocked like that,
literally?
432
00:24:31,170 --> 00:24:33,504
- Yeah.
- It's not pleasant.
433
00:24:34,706 --> 00:24:36,607
- (buzzer)
- (teacher groans)
434
00:24:36,609 --> 00:24:38,409
Williams: Now if you'll just
use the scale here
435
00:24:38,411 --> 00:24:40,211
to estimate for me
the amount of volts you think
436
00:24:40,213 --> 00:24:42,613
you've received
in the sample shock.
437
00:24:44,716 --> 00:24:47,751
- I don't know. You tell me.
- That was only 45 volts.
438
00:24:47,753 --> 00:24:49,920
So go ahead and begin the test.
439
00:24:49,922 --> 00:24:52,723
He doesn't have a microphone
but he can hear you.
440
00:24:52,725 --> 00:24:54,825
Just speak into the microphone.
441
00:24:54,827 --> 00:24:57,394
The rooms are partially
soundproof.
442
00:24:57,396 --> 00:24:59,730
Are you ready, learner?
443
00:25:00,632 --> 00:25:03,667
Stanley: Continues with robotic impassivity,
444
00:25:03,669 --> 00:25:05,936
oblivious to experimenter.
445
00:25:05,938 --> 00:25:08,572
Seems to derive no pleasure from the act itself.
446
00:25:08,574 --> 00:25:11,809
- (buzzer)
- Incorrect.
447
00:25:13,044 --> 00:25:14,712
The correct answer is box.
448
00:25:14,714 --> 00:25:17,748
Stanley: Curt and officious when saying "Correct".
449
00:25:17,750 --> 00:25:19,884
75 volts.
450
00:25:19,886 --> 00:25:22,453
- (buzzer)
- Jim: Let me out of here!
451
00:25:22,455 --> 00:25:25,489
Stanley: Each time he administrates a shock,
452
00:25:25,491 --> 00:25:27,825
lips drawn back, bares his teeth.
453
00:25:30,462 --> 00:25:32,830
"Sweet: Candy, girl,
454
00:25:32,832 --> 00:25:34,298
taste, pickle."
455
00:25:34,300 --> 00:25:35,766
(buzzer)
456
00:25:35,768 --> 00:25:39,336
Wrong. "Sweet taste." 120 volts.
457
00:25:39,338 --> 00:25:41,539
- (buzzer)
- (Jim groans)
458
00:25:41,541 --> 00:25:43,874
Jim: Let me out of here!
459
00:25:45,677 --> 00:25:47,745
Stanley: Looks sadly at the experimenter
460
00:25:47,747 --> 00:25:50,080
and continues reading word pairs.
461
00:25:51,950 --> 00:25:53,217
(buzzer)
462
00:25:54,953 --> 00:25:57,254
Wrong. "True story".
463
00:25:57,256 --> 00:25:58,856
135 volts.
464
00:25:58,858 --> 00:26:01,425
- (buzzer)
- (Jim groans)
465
00:26:01,427 --> 00:26:02,826
Teacher: "Slow, walk..."
466
00:26:02,828 --> 00:26:04,461
Stanley: Afterwards, if a learner
467
00:26:04,463 --> 00:26:06,163
who says he agreed to it
468
00:26:06,165 --> 00:26:08,799
and therefore must accept responsibility.
469
00:26:08,801 --> 00:26:13,137
Teacher: Wrong.
"Slow music." 150 volts.
470
00:26:13,672 --> 00:26:16,307
- (buzzer)
- Jim: Let me out of here!
471
00:26:16,309 --> 00:26:18,642
I can't stand the pain.
472
00:26:19,911 --> 00:26:22,246
The man,
he seems to be getting hurt.
473
00:26:22,981 --> 00:26:25,849
Williams: There's no
permanent tissue damage.
474
00:26:25,851 --> 00:26:27,885
Yes, but I know
what shocks do to you.
475
00:26:27,887 --> 00:26:30,187
I'm an electrical engineer,
476
00:26:30,189 --> 00:26:32,323
and I have had shocks.
477
00:26:33,291 --> 00:26:35,225
You get real shook up by them,
478
00:26:35,961 --> 00:26:38,929
especially if you know
the next one is coming.
479
00:26:39,931 --> 00:26:41,465
I'm sorry.
480
00:26:41,866 --> 00:26:44,034
Williams: It's absolutely
essential that you do continue.
481
00:26:44,036 --> 00:26:48,505
Well, I won't, not with the man
screaming to get out.
482
00:26:48,507 --> 00:26:50,841
Williams: You have
no other choice.
483
00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:57,615
Why don't I have a choice?
484
00:26:58,783 --> 00:27:01,251
I came here on my own free will.
485
00:27:01,253 --> 00:27:03,921
I thought I could help
in a research project.
486
00:27:03,923 --> 00:27:08,892
But if I have to hurt somebody,
if I was in his place,
487
00:27:10,462 --> 00:27:12,896
no, I can't continue.
488
00:27:15,100 --> 00:27:18,702
I've probably gone too far
already. I'm very sorry.
489
00:27:24,609 --> 00:27:26,910
(door shuts)
490
00:27:27,445 --> 00:27:29,513
I could've wept.
491
00:27:29,515 --> 00:27:32,049
I mean he looked like
he wanted to slug me.
492
00:27:32,684 --> 00:27:35,486
Out of gratitude, you
do understand, I mean wept.
493
00:27:35,488 --> 00:27:37,521
Because all day we've been
494
00:27:37,523 --> 00:27:39,957
getting nothing but "wrong,"
zzzt.
495
00:27:42,360 --> 00:27:45,896
You do realize I have to sit and
listen to you scream all day.
496
00:27:45,898 --> 00:27:49,199
Well, so do I. (chuckles)
497
00:27:49,201 --> 00:27:51,535
He was what, Danish?
498
00:27:51,537 --> 00:27:53,170
Dutch, actually.
499
00:27:53,172 --> 00:27:56,106
Right, but it wasn't his
nationality that caused him
500
00:27:56,108 --> 00:27:59,176
to stop, it was the fact he
worked with electricity.
501
00:27:59,178 --> 00:28:00,444
Hmm.
502
00:28:00,446 --> 00:28:03,647
They all seem
to wanna impress you...
503
00:28:03,649 --> 00:28:05,983
- for some reason.
- Mm-hm.
504
00:28:06,918 --> 00:28:08,852
But why?
505
00:28:09,154 --> 00:28:11,755
Why do so many,
the vast majority,
506
00:28:11,757 --> 00:28:14,191
push all the way through
to the final switch?
507
00:28:14,193 --> 00:28:18,829
Why is the Dutchman's defiance
the anomaly instead of the norm?
508
00:28:18,831 --> 00:28:21,965
All the psychiatrists and
psychologists I consulted
509
00:28:21,967 --> 00:28:24,835
were convinced we'd have trouble
finding a single person
510
00:28:24,837 --> 00:28:27,171
that'd go all the way through
to the end. I'd have been
511
00:28:27,173 --> 00:28:29,707
better off consulting the guy
from Pepe's Pizza.
512
00:28:29,709 --> 00:28:31,041
Oh, you mean Pepe?
513
00:28:31,043 --> 00:28:33,077
Williams:
I think his name is Carmine.
514
00:28:33,079 --> 00:28:35,846
Stanley: Well, you get my point.
The butcher, the baker,
515
00:28:35,848 --> 00:28:37,848
the candlestick maker.
516
00:28:37,850 --> 00:28:42,419
I'd like to try it,
the test shock.
517
00:28:43,655 --> 00:28:46,156
I just wanna...
know what it feels like.
518
00:28:46,624 --> 00:28:48,759
- Sasha.
- (laughing)
519
00:28:48,761 --> 00:28:52,663
I don't even think about that,
and I've been in there
520
00:28:52,665 --> 00:28:55,466
supposedly getting
zapped to the maximum.
521
00:29:00,271 --> 00:29:02,206
This really isn't necessary.
522
00:29:02,208 --> 00:29:04,842
Well, yeah, but it's not harmful
either.
523
00:29:04,844 --> 00:29:07,377
I mean I just wanna
understand it better.
524
00:29:08,246 --> 00:29:09,747
OK.
525
00:29:13,451 --> 00:29:15,786
Other arm.
526
00:29:22,694 --> 00:29:24,361
(buzzer)
527
00:29:30,034 --> 00:29:32,369
- Thank you.
- You're welcome.
528
00:29:38,877 --> 00:29:41,011
Stanley: I designed a series of variations,
529
00:29:41,013 --> 00:29:43,480
25 in all, and continued the experiments
530
00:29:43,482 --> 00:29:45,482
over the next two semesters.
531
00:29:46,417 --> 00:29:48,986
We adjust the script so thatthe learner bangs on the wall...
532
00:29:48,988 --> 00:29:51,321
- (loud thudding)
- ...but says nothing.
533
00:29:53,925 --> 00:29:56,226
We asked the teacher to physically press
534
00:29:56,228 --> 00:29:58,228
the learner's hand on a copper plate,
535
00:29:58,230 --> 00:29:59,763
forcing him to receive the shock.
536
00:29:59,765 --> 00:30:02,800
- House.
- Wrong. 135 volts.
537
00:30:02,802 --> 00:30:03,934
- (buzzer)
- (groans)
538
00:30:03,936 --> 00:30:09,473
in Bridgeport, to deduct the potential intimidation factor
539
00:30:09,475 --> 00:30:14,845
of Ivy League prestige. And,back at Yale, we include women.
540
00:30:16,948 --> 00:30:18,882
What did you just do?
541
00:30:19,818 --> 00:30:22,119
Uh, he said: "Ow."
542
00:30:22,121 --> 00:30:24,454
Did you turn off the machine?
543
00:30:26,124 --> 00:30:30,093
I... I thought that if it seemed
like I,
544
00:30:30,962 --> 00:30:33,297
you know, turn...
545
00:30:40,638 --> 00:30:43,340
(sighs) OK. (clears throat)
"Short..."
546
00:30:43,342 --> 00:30:45,475
Williams: The machine?
547
00:30:49,347 --> 00:30:51,048
Please continue, teacher.
548
00:30:51,050 --> 00:30:52,382
(click)
549
00:30:54,152 --> 00:30:58,355
OK, "Short: Sentence, movie,
550
00:30:58,357 --> 00:31:00,591
time, skirt."
551
00:31:02,260 --> 00:31:04,394
(buzzer)
552
00:31:05,063 --> 00:31:07,965
I'm sorry, that's wrong.
It's "short time".
553
00:31:09,868 --> 00:31:12,202
- (buzzer)
- (Jim groans)
554
00:31:18,276 --> 00:31:19,743
Stanley: In nearly every case,
555
00:31:19,745 --> 00:31:21,979
the essential results are the same.
556
00:31:21,981 --> 00:31:24,915
They hesitate, sigh, tremble and groan,
557
00:31:24,917 --> 00:31:27,918
but they advance to the last switch, 450 volts,
558
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:30,254
"Danger Severe Shock XXX",
559
00:31:30,256 --> 00:31:32,522
because they're politely told to.
560
00:31:35,126 --> 00:31:38,095
The results are
terrifying and depressing.
561
00:31:38,097 --> 00:31:40,297
They suggest that the kind of
character produced
562
00:31:40,299 --> 00:31:43,267
in American society
can't be counted on
563
00:31:43,269 --> 00:31:46,203
to insulate its citizens from
brutality and
564
00:31:46,205 --> 00:31:50,274
inhumane treatment in response
to a malevolent authority.
565
00:31:52,777 --> 00:31:56,546
Milgram? Milgram is
Hebrew for pomegranate.
566
00:31:56,548 --> 00:31:58,282
Is that what you mean?
it's one of the seven fruits
567
00:31:58,284 --> 00:32:01,184
- of the Bible.
- You're Jewish, same as me.
568
00:32:02,253 --> 00:32:04,288
You seem upset.
Am I upsetting you?
569
00:32:04,290 --> 00:32:06,823
I have office hours.
You can make an appointment.
570
00:32:06,825 --> 00:32:08,759
Huh? You don't like surprises.
571
00:32:08,761 --> 00:32:12,195
You know, I've been thinking
about the experiment a lot.
572
00:32:12,197 --> 00:32:15,299
It really rattled my wife
about what it said about me.
573
00:32:15,301 --> 00:32:17,167
If she was me,
she liked to think
574
00:32:17,169 --> 00:32:19,269
she wouldn't have pulled
the switch.
575
00:32:19,271 --> 00:32:21,638
- But you know what?
- What?
576
00:32:22,173 --> 00:32:24,274
You never know. That's
the thing, how can you know.
577
00:32:24,276 --> 00:32:26,343
- You can't, right?
- No, you can't.
578
00:32:26,345 --> 00:32:29,646
If it's any consolation,
a great many participants
579
00:32:29,648 --> 00:32:31,048
were prone to nervous laughter,
580
00:32:31,050 --> 00:32:34,651
but my wife actually is waiting
for me at home for dinner,
581
00:32:34,653 --> 00:32:36,853
- so...
- Are you inviting me?
582
00:32:36,855 --> 00:32:40,290
No. Make an appointment.
583
00:32:44,295 --> 00:32:46,763
With leftover grant money
we film the last two days
584
00:32:46,765 --> 00:32:50,434
of the experiment,
May 26 and 27th, 1962.
585
00:32:51,102 --> 00:32:54,638
Four days later, Adolf Eichmann
is executed in Jerusalem.
586
00:32:58,042 --> 00:33:00,544
Eichmann, architect of the Holocaust,
587
00:33:00,546 --> 00:33:04,281
responsible for the deportationand murder of millions of Jews,
588
00:33:04,283 --> 00:33:07,084
escaped to Argentina after World War II.
589
00:33:08,686 --> 00:33:12,923
He was living with his familyunder the name Ricardo Klement,
590
00:33:12,925 --> 00:33:15,258
an employee of Mercedes-Benz,
591
00:33:15,260 --> 00:33:18,128
when Israeli Mossad agents captured him in 1960
592
00:33:18,130 --> 00:33:20,497
and brought him to trial.
593
00:33:20,499 --> 00:33:22,699
Woman: (on TV) ...to completed the translations,
594
00:33:22,701 --> 00:33:25,168
I beg to submit a translation
595
00:33:25,170 --> 00:33:28,472
into the German of our number, 887.
596
00:33:28,474 --> 00:33:30,741
Stanley: Eichmann didn't deny his crimes,
597
00:33:31,476 --> 00:33:33,810
showed no trace of guilt or remorse.
598
00:33:34,445 --> 00:33:37,014
Said he was merely a transmitter.
599
00:33:37,016 --> 00:33:39,182
"I never did anything great or small
600
00:33:39,184 --> 00:33:43,487
without express instructions from my superiors."
601
00:33:49,627 --> 00:33:53,864
The cradle rocks above anabyss and common sense tells us
602
00:33:53,866 --> 00:33:57,801
that our existence is but a brief crack of light between
603
00:33:57,803 --> 00:34:00,137
two eternities of darkness.
604
00:34:07,645 --> 00:34:10,380
Let me out of here!
Hey, that really hurts!
605
00:34:10,382 --> 00:34:12,516
I told you,
I have a heart condition!
606
00:34:12,518 --> 00:34:15,118
I will not be in
this experiment anymore!
607
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:17,287
Ow! Let me out.
608
00:34:17,289 --> 00:34:19,423
Let me outta here! Let me out!
609
00:34:19,425 --> 00:34:23,226
(high-pitched)
Let... me... out... of here.
610
00:34:23,861 --> 00:34:28,365
¶ I will no longer be here ¶
611
00:34:31,569 --> 00:34:34,304
Ah, hey, Stanley,
a nice day to wrap up
612
00:34:34,306 --> 00:34:37,607
- the new obedience experiment.
- Yeah, yeah.
613
00:34:39,677 --> 00:34:41,144
Hmm.
614
00:34:43,314 --> 00:34:47,350
I should tell you about Asch.
Solomon E. Asch.
615
00:34:47,352 --> 00:34:50,787
If you ever saw my thesis at
Harvard, and I worked for him,
616
00:34:50,789 --> 00:34:52,489
diligently and miserably,
617
00:34:52,491 --> 00:34:55,625
at the Institute for Advanced
Study at Princeton.
618
00:34:56,561 --> 00:34:59,596
Asch did the things with
the lines, right?
619
00:34:59,598 --> 00:35:05,168
The study you are taking part in
today involves the perception
620
00:35:05,170 --> 00:35:07,637
of the lengths of lines.
621
00:35:07,639 --> 00:35:10,974
As you can see, there are
a number of cards,
622
00:35:10,976 --> 00:35:14,444
and on each card there are
several lines.
623
00:35:14,712 --> 00:35:16,880
Your task is a very simple one.
624
00:35:16,882 --> 00:35:20,383
You're to look at the line on
the left and determine which of
625
00:35:20,385 --> 00:35:23,753
the three lines on the right
is equal to it in length.
626
00:35:25,490 --> 00:35:28,592
Stanley: This is a recreationfrom a film I made in the 70's.
627
00:35:28,594 --> 00:35:31,394
Five of the six participants are confederates.
628
00:35:31,396 --> 00:35:34,564
The single true subject in the white T- shirt
629
00:35:34,566 --> 00:35:38,301
hears everyone else's answersbefore announcing his decision.
630
00:35:38,303 --> 00:35:40,637
- Man 1: Two.
- Man 2: Two.
631
00:35:40,972 --> 00:35:42,639
- Two.
- Two.
632
00:35:42,641 --> 00:35:43,640
Two.
633
00:35:43,642 --> 00:35:47,344
Good. Let's move onto the next
card. Same thing, gentlemen.
634
00:35:47,346 --> 00:35:49,813
- Man 1: Three.
- Man 2: Three.
635
00:35:49,815 --> 00:35:52,516
- Man 3: Three.
- Three.
636
00:35:52,518 --> 00:35:55,819
Stanley: After the first few rounds, members of the group
637
00:35:55,821 --> 00:35:57,287
choose the wrong line.
638
00:35:57,289 --> 00:35:59,489
- Man 3: Two.
- Man 4: Two.
639
00:35:59,491 --> 00:36:03,059
Stanley: The subject denies the evidence of his own eyes
640
00:36:03,061 --> 00:36:05,028
and yields to group influence.
641
00:36:05,030 --> 00:36:06,963
(stammers) Two.
642
00:36:06,965 --> 00:36:08,899
Very good. Thank you.
643
00:36:09,433 --> 00:36:11,067
In the language of
social science, the experiment
644
00:36:11,069 --> 00:36:14,337
was known as the effect of group
pressure upon the modification
645
00:36:14,339 --> 00:36:18,241
- and distortion of judgments.
- Pff. Great title.
646
00:36:18,243 --> 00:36:20,577
It made Asch famous...
647
00:36:21,179 --> 00:36:23,513
amongst social scientists.
648
00:36:28,653 --> 00:36:30,787
(engine shuts off)
649
00:36:35,426 --> 00:36:38,628
It always bothered me that
the experiment was about lines.
650
00:36:38,630 --> 00:36:41,531
I wanted to do something
more humanly significant.
651
00:36:44,869 --> 00:36:46,937
- (doorbell rings)
- (dog barks)
652
00:36:46,939 --> 00:36:49,105
He hears the bell.
653
00:36:49,107 --> 00:36:51,508
Stanley, it's so good
to see you.
654
00:36:51,510 --> 00:36:54,844
- Hi. Nice to meet you.
- This is Sasha.
655
00:36:54,846 --> 00:36:58,381
Sasha, how are you?
So lovely to see you. Come in.
656
00:36:58,383 --> 00:36:59,616
- Stanley
- How are you?
657
00:36:59,618 --> 00:37:00,951
Glad you made it.
658
00:37:03,588 --> 00:37:07,290
Can I tell you what a miserable
time I had working for Asch?
659
00:37:07,292 --> 00:37:11,528
Princeton, the bureaucracy,
the institutional arrogance.
660
00:37:11,530 --> 00:37:14,731
Not permitted to use a scrap of
paper without it becoming
661
00:37:14,733 --> 00:37:17,601
an issue to be settled behind
closed doors.
662
00:37:19,971 --> 00:37:21,137
A candy bar in the office
663
00:37:21,139 --> 00:37:23,907
and I was reported
via formal letter.
664
00:37:23,909 --> 00:37:26,409
I assumed he'd introduce me
to the leading intellectuals
665
00:37:26,411 --> 00:37:28,111
of the day. This did not happen.
666
00:37:28,113 --> 00:37:31,915
I assumed that he'd acknowledge
me in the book I was researching
667
00:37:31,917 --> 00:37:34,484
for him, a book on conformity.
668
00:37:35,987 --> 00:37:37,988
He did not finish the book.
669
00:37:37,990 --> 00:37:40,757
It was like drinking from
a glass with a false bottom.
670
00:37:40,759 --> 00:37:43,360
I thought there'd be more.
I was thirsty.
671
00:37:43,362 --> 00:37:46,363
Please call me Sholem,
I would prefer it.
672
00:37:46,365 --> 00:37:48,798
There's no need to be so stuffy.
673
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:50,934
In an elevator? Really?
674
00:37:51,869 --> 00:37:54,037
They met in an elevator.
675
00:37:54,039 --> 00:37:56,373
Can someone please pacify
the dog?
676
00:37:57,375 --> 00:38:00,343
Here I am,
still trying to impress him.
677
00:38:00,345 --> 00:38:03,046
Human nature can be studied
but not escaped,
678
00:38:03,048 --> 00:38:05,115
especially your own.
679
00:38:05,117 --> 00:38:07,417
Well, I was on my way
into this party
680
00:38:07,419 --> 00:38:09,819
and I could feel somebody
walking behind me
681
00:38:09,821 --> 00:38:12,756
as I went into the building.
We both got onto the elevator,
682
00:38:12,758 --> 00:38:15,492
and it turned out we were going
to the same floor.
683
00:38:15,494 --> 00:38:18,028
And one of us said,
I don't remember which,
684
00:38:18,030 --> 00:38:19,896
"Are we going to the same
party?"
685
00:38:19,898 --> 00:38:21,631
My fate was sealed.
686
00:38:21,633 --> 00:38:24,501
He didn't leave my side
the whole night.
687
00:38:24,503 --> 00:38:26,569
And he drove me home,
688
00:38:26,571 --> 00:38:28,872
and it turned out we had
a lot in common.
689
00:38:28,874 --> 00:38:32,208
We were both from the Bronx,
my mother was born in Russia.
690
00:38:32,210 --> 00:38:35,111
So my sister's friend,
her parents in Vienna
691
00:38:35,113 --> 00:38:38,448
had sent her and her brothers
to New York during the war.
692
00:38:38,450 --> 00:38:40,650
But when I was over there
visiting, they had
693
00:38:40,652 --> 00:38:43,920
just reclaimed their factory,
and it was a coat factory,
694
00:38:43,922 --> 00:38:46,222
and that's where I got this.
695
00:38:46,224 --> 00:38:49,292
So, you're a well- travelled
American girl,
696
00:38:49,294 --> 00:38:51,161
born in Switzerland,
697
00:38:51,163 --> 00:38:55,098
who took dance lessons in Paris
and is wearing a Viennese coat?
698
00:38:57,835 --> 00:38:59,469
Why haven't we met before?
699
00:38:59,471 --> 00:39:03,340
Stanley, why do you feel
compelled to dwell on
700
00:39:03,342 --> 00:39:06,443
the negative aspects of
obedience?
701
00:39:06,445 --> 00:39:09,679
Why must you focus on
its destructive potential?
702
00:39:09,681 --> 00:39:12,782
Obedience isn't necessarily
an instrument of evil.
703
00:39:12,784 --> 00:39:15,852
I think we can both agree,
looking at recent history,
704
00:39:15,854 --> 00:39:17,654
the history that brought you
to this country,
705
00:39:17,656 --> 00:39:20,924
a history in which
we see abusive power
706
00:39:20,926 --> 00:39:24,627
assuming unprecedented murderous
dimensions.
707
00:39:24,629 --> 00:39:27,897
Why does your experiment give me
a dirty feeling?
708
00:39:28,499 --> 00:39:31,234
He didn't expect these results.
709
00:39:31,236 --> 00:39:33,203
He tried to change
the conditions
710
00:39:33,205 --> 00:39:36,139
so that people
would refuse to obey.
711
00:39:36,141 --> 00:39:37,374
Ah.
712
00:39:37,376 --> 00:39:39,809
We met in a library.
713
00:39:39,811 --> 00:39:41,878
Oh, him, not him.
714
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:45,248
The whole time, I'm sorry,
this is startling,
715
00:39:45,516 --> 00:39:50,153
out of 780 subjects,
not a single person got up,
716
00:39:50,155 --> 00:39:51,788
went to the door and looked in
717
00:39:51,790 --> 00:39:54,457
to see if the man screaming
was all right.
718
00:39:55,126 --> 00:39:57,427
Not a single one.
719
00:40:01,966 --> 00:40:04,567
Stanley: Sasha goes back to school, Smith College,
720
00:40:04,569 --> 00:40:06,469
for her degree in social work.
721
00:40:07,938 --> 00:40:10,974
My first obedience paper submitted almost two years ago
722
00:40:10,976 --> 00:40:13,576
to the Journal of Abnormal and Social Psychology
723
00:40:13,578 --> 00:40:16,713
is finally published in October 1963,
724
00:40:16,715 --> 00:40:19,582
just after I start a new job at Harvard,
725
00:40:19,584 --> 00:40:23,319
Assistant Professor,Department of Social Relations.
726
00:40:23,321 --> 00:40:26,122
Am I impressed with myself
being at Harvard?
727
00:40:26,124 --> 00:40:30,794
Well, I got my PhD here,
Harvard is the best place to be.
728
00:40:32,129 --> 00:40:35,865
The subjects were seen to swear,
tremble, stutter,
729
00:40:35,867 --> 00:40:40,136
bite their lips, dig their
fingernails into the flesh,
730
00:40:40,138 --> 00:40:43,807
and these were characteristic
responses, not exceptions,
731
00:40:43,809 --> 00:40:48,211
and yet, despite this behavior,
the majority complied.
732
00:40:50,114 --> 00:40:51,614
Yes?
733
00:40:51,616 --> 00:40:53,950
How do you justify
the deception?
734
00:40:55,486 --> 00:40:58,421
I like to think of it as
illusion, not deception.
735
00:40:58,423 --> 00:41:01,291
Semantics, you may say,
but illusion, you know,
736
00:41:01,293 --> 00:41:03,626
has a revelatory function,
as in a play.
737
00:41:03,628 --> 00:41:05,995
Illusion can set the stage for
revelation,
738
00:41:05,997 --> 00:41:08,765
to reveal certain
difficult-to-get-at truths.
739
00:41:08,767 --> 00:41:12,035
But still, when you go to see
a play, you pay for a ticket.
740
00:41:12,037 --> 00:41:13,736
You know you're seeing a play.
741
00:41:13,738 --> 00:41:16,473
These people didn't know
it wasn't real.
742
00:41:17,308 --> 00:41:18,975
You tricked them.
743
00:41:18,977 --> 00:41:21,978
Hello, today we'll be
doing an experiment about
744
00:41:21,980 --> 00:41:24,280
blind obedience
to malevolent authority.
745
00:41:24,282 --> 00:41:27,350
I'd like for you to pretend
that this machine is delivering
746
00:41:27,352 --> 00:41:29,619
painful shocks to a person in
the other room.
747
00:41:29,621 --> 00:41:31,721
How truthful do you think
that would be?
748
00:41:31,723 --> 00:41:35,825
But if you think of it, really,
you were delivering shocks
749
00:41:35,827 --> 00:41:39,329
to your subjects.
Psychological shocks.
750
00:41:39,331 --> 00:41:41,130
- And the anxieties...
- No--
751
00:41:41,132 --> 00:41:42,732
...methodically, for one year.
752
00:41:42,734 --> 00:41:45,468
If your facts were
as solid as your imagination,
753
00:41:45,470 --> 00:41:47,804
you'd realize that this is
a false analogy.
754
00:41:47,806 --> 00:41:52,909
As Kierkegaard says: "Take away
paradox from the thinker
755
00:41:52,911 --> 00:41:55,812
- and you have a professor."
- An assistant professor.
756
00:41:55,814 --> 00:41:58,348
For the moment,
Dr. Milgram and myself
757
00:41:58,350 --> 00:42:00,617
are only assistant professors,
it's true.
758
00:42:00,619 --> 00:42:03,419
Funt: (on TV) The gentleman in the elevator now
759
00:42:03,421 --> 00:42:05,255
is a Candid star.
760
00:42:05,257 --> 00:42:08,224
These folks who are entering, the man with the white shirt,
761
00:42:08,226 --> 00:42:10,493
the lady with the trench coat,
762
00:42:10,495 --> 00:42:14,063
and, subsequently, one other member of our staff,
763
00:42:14,065 --> 00:42:16,232
will face the rear.
764
00:42:16,234 --> 00:42:20,436
And you'll see how this man in the trench coat...
765
00:42:20,438 --> 00:42:22,772
(audience laughter)
766
00:42:26,544 --> 00:42:29,679
..tries to maintain his individuality,
767
00:42:32,182 --> 00:42:34,817
but, little by little...
768
00:42:34,819 --> 00:42:35,652
(laughing)
769
00:42:39,957 --> 00:42:43,660
...he looks at his watch but he's really making an excuse
770
00:42:43,662 --> 00:42:46,496
for turning just a little bit more to the wall."
771
00:42:46,498 --> 00:42:48,197
Actually, it's true.
772
00:42:48,199 --> 00:42:51,734
There's an element of illusion
in almost all my work.
773
00:42:51,736 --> 00:42:54,203
Funt: (on TV) This man has apparently
774
00:42:54,205 --> 00:42:55,605
been in groups before.
775
00:42:55,607 --> 00:42:57,941
(audience laughter)
776
00:43:05,849 --> 00:43:08,885
Candid Camera was a reference
point, I never denied that.
777
00:43:08,887 --> 00:43:11,354
You can see that plainly enough
in the lost letter technique,
778
00:43:11,356 --> 00:43:14,724
which I conceived of at Yale and
was refined at Harvard.
779
00:43:14,726 --> 00:43:17,060
Leave a letter, a sealed, stamped letter
780
00:43:17,062 --> 00:43:19,395
but unmailed, for someone else to find.
781
00:43:19,397 --> 00:43:22,599
Leave it on a sidewalk, inside a store, a phone booth.
782
00:43:22,601 --> 00:43:24,434
Put it under the windshield wipers of a parked car
783
00:43:24,436 --> 00:43:27,704
with a note saying, "Found near car."
784
00:43:27,706 --> 00:43:30,873
All letters are addressed to the same post office box.
785
00:43:30,875 --> 00:43:32,909
But they're evenly split between
786
00:43:32,911 --> 00:43:35,111
four different intended recipients.
787
00:43:35,113 --> 00:43:38,314
Friends of the Communist Party,
friends of the Nazi Party,
788
00:43:38,316 --> 00:43:42,585
Medical Research Associates,
and Mr. Walter Carnap.
789
00:43:42,587 --> 00:43:44,921
All fictitious.
790
00:43:44,923 --> 00:43:47,090
The innocuous content of the letters,
791
00:43:47,092 --> 00:43:49,792
if anyone's curious enough to open and read,
792
00:43:49,794 --> 00:43:52,395
was a simple message from "Max" to "Walter"
793
00:43:52,397 --> 00:43:54,731
proposing an upcoming meeting.
794
00:43:58,068 --> 00:44:00,136
Carnap.
795
00:44:00,138 --> 00:44:02,639
It's kind of an odd name.
796
00:44:02,641 --> 00:44:04,974
Like the philosopher?
797
00:44:09,313 --> 00:44:10,580
Stanley: In two weeks,
798
00:44:10,582 --> 00:44:12,315
out of 100 "lost" letters to each addressee,
799
00:44:12,317 --> 00:44:15,485
72 were sent to the Medical Research Associates,
800
00:44:15,487 --> 00:44:18,054
plus 71 percent to Mr. Walter Carnap,
801
00:44:18,756 --> 00:44:21,691
but a mere 25 to the Friends of the Communists,
802
00:44:21,693 --> 00:44:24,727
and the same number, 25, to the Nazis.
803
00:44:24,729 --> 00:44:27,530
We can deduce from this
that the American public
804
00:44:27,532 --> 00:44:29,732
has an aversion
to Nazis and Communists.
805
00:44:29,734 --> 00:44:33,069
Results that are reasonable
and even comforting,
806
00:44:33,071 --> 00:44:36,906
though not startling.
But why not take it further?
807
00:44:36,908 --> 00:44:38,775
Taketo Murata, another student,
808
00:44:38,777 --> 00:44:41,678
drives to Charlotte and Raleigh, North Carolina,
809
00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:43,946
to lose a new batch of letters.
810
00:44:55,526 --> 00:44:58,261
When the letters come back, the percentages, once again
811
00:44:58,263 --> 00:45:00,563
confirm expected prejudices.
812
00:45:00,565 --> 00:45:03,232
Pro-white letters get mailed more often
813
00:45:03,234 --> 00:45:04,901
in white neighborhoods.
814
00:45:04,903 --> 00:45:08,838
More pro-negro letters getmailed from black neighborhoods.
815
00:45:11,208 --> 00:45:12,709
A variation.
816
00:45:12,711 --> 00:45:16,045
I hire a pilot with a Piper Cub to fly low
817
00:45:16,047 --> 00:45:18,281
over Worcester, Massachusetts,
818
00:45:18,283 --> 00:45:19,916
spilling lost letters.
819
00:45:19,918 --> 00:45:22,852
They land in trees, ponds, on rooftops.
820
00:45:22,854 --> 00:45:25,722
Not all my ideas are brilliant.
821
00:45:32,162 --> 00:45:34,297
(footsteps approach)
822
00:45:38,235 --> 00:45:42,939
Well, it's not on the front
page, strangely enough.
823
00:45:54,551 --> 00:45:56,886
I found it. Page Ten.
824
00:45:59,356 --> 00:46:01,491
OK. Uh...
825
00:46:01,493 --> 00:46:05,461
"Yale experiment shows
many distraught over cruelty
826
00:46:05,463 --> 00:46:06,763
but did not stop."
827
00:46:06,765 --> 00:46:09,332
It's odd to see one's name
in the paper,
828
00:46:09,334 --> 00:46:11,300
but maybe I can get used to it.
829
00:46:11,302 --> 00:46:12,602
"Subjects have been studied
830
00:46:12,604 --> 00:46:15,705
under 24 different experimental
conditions."
831
00:46:15,707 --> 00:46:17,774
It wasn't a thousand, was it?
832
00:46:17,776 --> 00:46:19,709
I talked to him for
over half an hour
833
00:46:19,711 --> 00:46:21,811
and I don't see
a single direct quote.
834
00:46:21,813 --> 00:46:26,315
"Dr. Milgram pointed out
that from 1933 to 1945,
835
00:46:26,317 --> 00:46:28,151
millions of persons
836
00:46:28,153 --> 00:46:31,387
were systematically slaughtered
on command.
837
00:46:31,389 --> 00:46:35,258
Gas chambers were built,
death camps were guarded,
838
00:46:35,260 --> 00:46:39,095
corpses were produced
with the same efficiency
839
00:46:39,097 --> 00:46:42,565
as the manufacture of
appliances."
840
00:46:42,567 --> 00:46:44,901
There's a quote.
841
00:46:46,637 --> 00:46:49,238
Do you think anyone else reads
this paper?
842
00:47:03,520 --> 00:47:05,588
President Kennedy has been shot.
843
00:47:05,590 --> 00:47:08,024
He was shot in the motorcade
in Dallas.
844
00:47:09,459 --> 00:47:11,360
He was shot in the head.
845
00:47:11,362 --> 00:47:14,697
It's Milgram. It's just another
one of his experiments.
846
00:47:14,699 --> 00:47:16,232
- On the level?
- Yes.
847
00:47:16,234 --> 00:47:19,168
Kelly, you've got that radio,
yeah? Turn it on.
848
00:47:20,404 --> 00:47:23,439
Man: (on radio) ...his tour of the City of Dallas, Texas.
849
00:47:23,441 --> 00:47:25,942
A presidential aide, Mario Bryan, said he had
850
00:47:25,944 --> 00:47:28,244
no information on whether the President is alive--"
851
00:47:28,246 --> 00:47:31,280
He's rigged a faked broadcast,
like Orson Welles.
852
00:47:31,282 --> 00:47:34,750
I wonder what the experiment's
really about?
853
00:47:34,752 --> 00:47:37,720
- This is real.
- ...the president is critical.
854
00:47:37,722 --> 00:47:39,989
Texas Governor John Connally also was shot
855
00:47:39,991 --> 00:47:42,892
and has been taken to surgery in Parkland Hospital...
856
00:48:01,511 --> 00:48:03,646
(car approaches)
857
00:48:08,352 --> 00:48:09,886
(car door shuts)
858
00:48:11,521 --> 00:48:14,624
I got it cheap, I got it cheap
from a grad student.
859
00:48:14,626 --> 00:48:16,325
He gave me a deal
when he realized
860
00:48:16,327 --> 00:48:18,094
he couldn't take it with him
to London.
861
00:48:18,096 --> 00:48:21,297
It's making a funny noise.
Maybe you can have a look.
862
00:48:22,799 --> 00:48:24,267
- Stanley--
- You love this kind of thing.
863
00:48:24,269 --> 00:48:26,769
The dean lives
right across the street.
864
00:48:26,771 --> 00:48:29,005
We just applied for
financial aid.
865
00:48:29,007 --> 00:48:31,340
A Jaguar, right.
What's he going to think?
866
00:48:31,342 --> 00:48:33,309
What...
Who cares what he thinks?
867
00:48:33,311 --> 00:48:35,578
I didn't say that.
868
00:48:35,580 --> 00:48:37,914
- Well--
- I didn't say that.
869
00:48:40,083 --> 00:48:41,784
Yeah.
870
00:48:41,786 --> 00:48:44,120
See you soon.
871
00:48:51,061 --> 00:48:52,495
It was cheaper than you think,
872
00:48:52,497 --> 00:48:54,764
but I understand it creates
the wrong impression.
873
00:48:54,766 --> 00:48:56,065
- Do you?
- I do.
874
00:48:56,067 --> 00:48:58,234
Or are you just doing
an imitation of
875
00:48:58,236 --> 00:49:01,003
someone who listens,
who's reasonable?
876
00:49:01,005 --> 00:49:03,439
Well, we're going to need
two cars.
877
00:49:03,441 --> 00:49:06,676
- Is that the dean?
- (engine starts)
878
00:49:08,478 --> 00:49:11,814
Well, maybe it'll impress
the Harvard tenure committee.
879
00:49:11,816 --> 00:49:14,150
Who cares what they think?
880
00:49:17,654 --> 00:49:20,356
- So you returned the car?
- I did.
881
00:49:20,891 --> 00:49:23,292
- It was sensible.
- Hmm.
882
00:49:23,294 --> 00:49:27,129
I don't know a single tenured
professor who drives a Jaguar.
883
00:49:27,131 --> 00:49:29,432
I didn't like the color.
884
00:49:29,434 --> 00:49:33,202
If you get turned down it won't
be because of an automobile.
885
00:49:34,705 --> 00:49:36,706
But it's got to sting, yeah?
886
00:49:36,708 --> 00:49:40,443
The attacks, the criticisms,
the violent reactions.
887
00:49:40,445 --> 00:49:43,646
That woman was going through
a divorce, it turns out.
888
00:49:43,648 --> 00:49:45,982
I didn't take it personally.
889
00:49:47,084 --> 00:49:49,285
I'm going through a divorce.
890
00:49:50,520 --> 00:49:52,254
I don't spit at people.
891
00:49:56,493 --> 00:49:58,627
I'm sorry to hear that.
892
00:50:00,263 --> 00:50:01,597
Thank you.
893
00:50:14,811 --> 00:50:18,014
It's true that I am, possibly,
more than commonly on edge,
894
00:50:18,016 --> 00:50:20,616
but how would you feel if you
picked up a copy of
895
00:50:20,618 --> 00:50:23,085
American Psychologist
and found yourself attacked in
896
00:50:23,087 --> 00:50:27,390
an article called "Some Thoughts
on Ethics in Research:
897
00:50:27,392 --> 00:50:30,960
a Response to Milgram's
Behavioral Study of Obedience"?
898
00:50:30,962 --> 00:50:34,530
Psychiatrists,
many of you in this room,
899
00:50:34,532 --> 00:50:37,266
predicted that only one person
in a thousand
900
00:50:37,268 --> 00:50:38,901
would deliver the shocks across
the board,
901
00:50:38,903 --> 00:50:42,772
an estimate that was off by
a factor of 500.
902
00:50:42,774 --> 00:50:48,477
So what happened in the lab was
discovered, not planned.
903
00:50:48,479 --> 00:50:53,115
But you expected, you knew you
were going to worry some people.
904
00:50:53,117 --> 00:50:54,417
- Mmm.
- Stress, in fact,
905
00:50:54,419 --> 00:50:56,619
- was a part of it.
- Well, every--
906
00:50:56,621 --> 00:50:57,653
Extreme stress.
907
00:50:57,655 --> 00:51:01,057
Every experiment is a situation
where the end is unknown,
908
00:51:01,059 --> 00:51:05,194
indeterminate, something that
might fail.
909
00:51:05,196 --> 00:51:07,997
The indeterminacy is part of
the excitement.
910
00:51:07,999 --> 00:51:10,499
Ethics. The undertow of ethics.
911
00:51:10,501 --> 00:51:15,805
I wanted to ask a question,
a series of questions
912
00:51:15,807 --> 00:51:19,742
about the psychological function
of obedience. The conditions
913
00:51:19,744 --> 00:51:22,945
that shape it, the defense
mechanisms it entails.
914
00:51:23,680 --> 00:51:27,750
The emotional forces
that keep a person obeying.
915
00:51:27,752 --> 00:51:30,786
As someone with pretensions as
a moral educator,
916
00:51:30,788 --> 00:51:35,524
let me suggest that science must
enhance our moral personhood,
917
00:51:35,526 --> 00:51:38,294
not... not diminish it.
918
00:51:38,296 --> 00:51:41,163
You forced people
to torture other people.
919
00:51:41,165 --> 00:51:42,631
- No.
- To see if they--
920
00:51:42,633 --> 00:51:46,735
No. No. No.
That is alien to my view.
921
00:51:47,137 --> 00:51:50,473
No one was forced, right?
922
00:51:50,475 --> 00:51:53,442
The experimenter told the
subject to perform an action.
923
00:51:53,444 --> 00:51:57,179
What happened between
the command and the outcome
924
00:51:57,181 --> 00:51:59,281
is the individual.
925
00:51:59,283 --> 00:52:04,487
With conscience and a will,
who can either obey or disobey.
926
00:52:04,489 --> 00:52:08,858
I don't see how you can
seriously equate victimization
927
00:52:08,860 --> 00:52:12,761
in a laboratory con
with the willful participation
928
00:52:12,763 --> 00:52:14,096
in mass murder.
929
00:52:14,098 --> 00:52:16,599
Victimization? Look...
930
00:52:18,401 --> 00:52:21,370
When the experiments were
complete
931
00:52:21,372 --> 00:52:24,673
all the subjects were
sent this questionnaire.
932
00:52:24,675 --> 00:52:26,208
Here's some examples.
933
00:52:29,779 --> 00:52:33,616
84 percent said they were glad
to have been in the experiment.
934
00:52:33,618 --> 00:52:36,952
15 percent indicated neutral
feelings.
935
00:52:36,954 --> 00:52:41,290
1.3 percent indicated negative
feelings.
936
00:52:42,025 --> 00:52:44,193
1.3 percent.
937
00:52:44,195 --> 00:52:47,196
Four-fifths thought more
experiments of this sort
938
00:52:47,198 --> 00:52:50,866
should be carried out,
and 74 percent said they had
939
00:52:50,868 --> 00:52:55,037
learned something of personal
importance about themselves
940
00:52:55,039 --> 00:52:58,474
and about the conditions
that shape human action.
941
00:53:01,878 --> 00:53:05,514
A year after the study,a psychiatrist, Dr. Paul Errara,
942
00:53:05,516 --> 00:53:07,917
was hired to meet with subjects who might have suffered
943
00:53:07,919 --> 00:53:10,052
possible negative effects.
944
00:53:10,554 --> 00:53:14,190
This is not another experiment.
There's no trick here.
945
00:53:14,192 --> 00:53:16,659
I can see why you may have
your doubts.
946
00:53:16,661 --> 00:53:18,260
- Yes.
- Yes.
947
00:53:18,262 --> 00:53:20,062
This is a debriefing meeting.
948
00:53:20,064 --> 00:53:23,165
We're here to assess
the after-effects.
949
00:53:23,167 --> 00:53:26,302
So, tell us how you feel.
950
00:53:27,270 --> 00:53:30,539
I'd like to know
what the point is of it.
951
00:53:31,675 --> 00:53:34,176
To learn something about
human nature.
952
00:53:34,178 --> 00:53:36,912
That was the aim.
953
00:53:36,914 --> 00:53:39,048
Professor Milgram?
954
00:53:39,749 --> 00:53:44,019
I hope that... I sincerely hope
that, basically,
955
00:53:44,021 --> 00:53:46,755
you don't have the feeling that
would rather not have been
956
00:53:46,757 --> 00:53:48,557
a part of this experiment.
957
00:53:51,027 --> 00:53:53,529
It's an interesting
life experience.
958
00:53:53,531 --> 00:53:55,598
I don't like hurting anyone
959
00:53:55,600 --> 00:53:58,667
and I can't understand myself
going all the way.
960
00:53:59,336 --> 00:54:01,537
- It left me feeling guilty.
- Mm-hm.
961
00:54:01,539 --> 00:54:03,839
Weren't we supposed
to have coffee?
962
00:54:03,841 --> 00:54:08,344
I told my husband.
I know I wasn't supposed to.
963
00:54:08,346 --> 00:54:10,779
But I don't do everything
I'm told.
964
00:54:10,781 --> 00:54:13,249
He said he wouldn't have done
the shocks.
965
00:54:13,251 --> 00:54:14,850
He would have refused.
966
00:54:15,986 --> 00:54:18,954
I wanted to cry,
but I started to laugh.
967
00:54:18,956 --> 00:54:22,424
- I think I did both.
- I was quite frightened,
968
00:54:22,426 --> 00:54:25,027
and I was quivering, and it's...
969
00:54:25,029 --> 00:54:28,397
I actually tried to memorize
the word pairs myself so that
970
00:54:28,399 --> 00:54:30,032
so that if they
switched it around
971
00:54:30,034 --> 00:54:31,800
I wouldn't have to get
those shocks.
972
00:54:31,802 --> 00:54:34,970
There's a tendency to think that
everything a person does
973
00:54:34,972 --> 00:54:38,707
is due to the feelings or ideas
within the person.
974
00:54:39,843 --> 00:54:42,077
You haven't had your coffee.
You want coffee?
975
00:54:42,079 --> 00:54:44,713
- Yes.
- Cream? Sugar?
976
00:54:44,715 --> 00:54:47,283
- I'll take two sugars.
- Both, please.
977
00:54:47,285 --> 00:54:49,451
Yes, thank you.
978
00:54:49,453 --> 00:54:53,756
But sometimes a person's actions
depend equally
979
00:54:53,758 --> 00:54:55,858
on the situation
you find yourself in.
980
00:54:55,860 --> 00:54:59,295
And in this case, the power of
the situation overwhelmed
981
00:54:59,297 --> 00:55:01,363
your personal power.
982
00:55:01,365 --> 00:55:03,966
I'm an understanding person.
983
00:55:03,968 --> 00:55:09,538
I'm an intelligent human being.
Speak the truth to me...
984
00:55:10,940 --> 00:55:14,877
and I'll cooperate gladly,
even if it's a bitter truth,
985
00:55:14,879 --> 00:55:17,012
but don't lie to me.
986
00:55:17,580 --> 00:55:21,050
The purpose was
to advance science,
987
00:55:21,818 --> 00:55:23,786
learn something.
988
00:55:23,788 --> 00:55:26,355
Maybe you shouldn't do this kind
of experiment
989
00:55:26,357 --> 00:55:28,891
if you have to deceive.
990
00:55:29,659 --> 00:55:33,329
Look, you can deceive other
people but don't deceive me.
991
00:55:36,466 --> 00:55:38,701
Stanley: We had half a dozen sessions with Errara
992
00:55:38,703 --> 00:55:41,670
and invited subjects. Themeetings were sparsely attended,
993
00:55:41,672 --> 00:55:44,707
full of confusion and complaints, but we concluded
994
00:55:44,709 --> 00:55:47,076
that no one showed signs of harm,
995
00:55:47,078 --> 00:55:49,078
no one had been traumatized.
996
00:55:49,446 --> 00:55:52,715
- Stanley?
- Tom Shannon.
997
00:55:52,717 --> 00:55:54,450
(laughing)
998
00:55:54,452 --> 00:55:56,418
Tom did the wiring on
the shock generator.
999
00:55:56,420 --> 00:55:59,254
- At Yale. The shock box.
- Pleased to meet you.
1000
00:55:59,256 --> 00:56:01,557
- This is Sasha.
- This is Michele.
1001
00:56:01,559 --> 00:56:04,760
Hey, I hated hearing about
Jim McDonough. Dead at 49.
1002
00:56:04,762 --> 00:56:06,729
That stuff about his heart
was no joke.
1003
00:56:06,731 --> 00:56:10,966
Yeah, I know. Sat down to a bowl
of oatmeal, had a heart attack.
1004
00:56:14,838 --> 00:56:16,171
He had nine kids.
1005
00:56:16,173 --> 00:56:20,242
Oh, sad. Maybe you shouldn't
unload such a large brood
1006
00:56:20,244 --> 00:56:22,144
into the world, no offense.
1007
00:56:22,146 --> 00:56:25,714
She's taking us to Paris. It's
the first stamp on her passport.
1008
00:56:25,716 --> 00:56:28,350
- That's awesome.
- Sasha thinks
I need a vacation.
1009
00:56:28,352 --> 00:56:30,486
Yeah. I heard they roughed you
up pretty good
1010
00:56:30,488 --> 00:56:33,455
- about those results.
- He's up for tenure.
1011
00:56:33,457 --> 00:56:34,890
People get feisty,
but it'll work out.
1012
00:56:34,892 --> 00:56:38,193
Gotta finish your book now.
Publish or perish, right?
1013
00:56:38,195 --> 00:56:40,229
Actually, I got sidetracked
1014
00:56:40,231 --> 00:56:42,531
working on
the small world problem.
1015
00:56:43,666 --> 00:56:47,035
For the Small World Problem, we
asked people in Kansas and Omaha
1016
00:56:47,037 --> 00:56:51,073
to mail a packet to a person in
Sharon, Massachusetts.
1017
00:56:53,209 --> 00:56:55,544
The instructions are simple.
1018
00:56:56,613 --> 00:56:58,147
There's a target person.
1019
00:56:58,149 --> 00:57:01,083
In this case, a stockbroker named Jacobs in Sharon, Mass.
1020
00:57:01,085 --> 00:57:04,319
Assuming they don't know them, people are asked to mail
1021
00:57:04,321 --> 00:57:06,522
the folder to someone who might know him.
1022
00:57:06,524 --> 00:57:09,625
They can send it to a friend, relative, or acquaintance,
1023
00:57:09,627 --> 00:57:12,594
but they have to send it, and this is key, to a person
1024
00:57:12,596 --> 00:57:16,265
they know on a first-name basis. There's a roster to fill out
1025
00:57:16,267 --> 00:57:17,666
and a batch of postcards to mail back
1026
00:57:17,668 --> 00:57:20,169
to Harvard to track the process.
1027
00:57:21,137 --> 00:57:22,971
Will it work? We don't know.
1028
00:57:22,973 --> 00:57:25,874
A woman in Omaha sends thefolder to a high school friend,
1029
00:57:25,876 --> 00:57:27,976
a bank clerk, in Council Bluffs, Iowa.
1030
00:57:27,978 --> 00:57:31,246
She sends it to man in Belmont, Massachusetts, a publisher,
1031
00:57:31,248 --> 00:57:34,183
who sends it to a tanner in Sharon, the tanner sends it
1032
00:57:34,185 --> 00:57:37,719
to his brother-in-law, a sheet metal worker, also in Sharon,
1033
00:57:37,721 --> 00:57:41,123
who sends it to a dentist, who sends it to a printer,
1034
00:57:41,125 --> 00:57:43,525
who sends it to Mr. Jacobs.
1035
00:57:43,527 --> 00:57:45,861
Seven links in the chain.
1036
00:57:47,997 --> 00:57:50,866
The average chain, in fact, involves 5.5 links.
1037
00:57:50,868 --> 00:57:54,036
That is, we determine that less than six degrees of separation
1038
00:57:54,038 --> 00:57:57,039
exist between you and several million strangers
1039
00:57:57,041 --> 00:58:00,175
who you may or may not encounter in your lifetime.
1040
00:58:01,177 --> 00:58:04,646
When we understand the structure of this communication net,
1041
00:58:04,648 --> 00:58:07,115
we stand to grasp a good deal more about
1042
00:58:07,117 --> 00:58:09,551
the fabric of society.
1043
00:58:09,553 --> 00:58:11,753
Maybe it's not necessarily justified,
1044
00:58:11,755 --> 00:58:13,989
this common human complaint.
1045
00:58:13,991 --> 00:58:18,093
The feeling that we're all cut off, alienated, and alone.
1046
00:58:20,063 --> 00:58:23,732
I don't need to go into detail
to hide the things I remember,
1047
00:58:23,734 --> 00:58:26,301
when I was 16, in Bucharest.
1048
00:58:26,303 --> 00:58:29,171
The killings, torture, terror.
1049
00:58:29,173 --> 00:58:30,506
Why are you bringing this up
now?
1050
00:58:30,508 --> 00:58:32,007
It's relevant.
1051
00:58:32,009 --> 00:58:36,144
The man was just turned down
for tenure at Harvard.
1052
00:58:36,146 --> 00:58:38,747
You wish to give the tragedy
some perspective.
1053
00:58:38,749 --> 00:58:41,783
It's not just that.
Because, bear with me,
1054
00:58:41,785 --> 00:58:44,286
they took people to the
slaughterhouse and strung them
1055
00:58:44,288 --> 00:58:46,455
on meat hooks, still alive.
1056
00:58:46,457 --> 00:58:48,991
Cut open their bellies
like cattle.
1057
00:58:48,993 --> 00:58:50,959
A five-year-old boy.
1058
00:58:50,961 --> 00:58:55,030
And they watched the entrails
spill out, the blood drain,
1059
00:58:55,032 --> 00:58:59,401
and they wrote notes and they
pinned the papers to the bodies.
1060
00:58:59,403 --> 00:59:01,737
"Kosher."
1061
00:59:15,752 --> 00:59:17,119
(click)
1062
00:59:26,563 --> 00:59:28,497
Serge was just giving me
a lesson in--
1063
00:59:28,499 --> 00:59:29,565
Reality?
1064
00:59:29,567 --> 00:59:33,835
The pogroms,
in Romania during the war.
1065
00:59:34,971 --> 00:59:36,672
The Iron Guard,
1066
00:59:37,607 --> 00:59:41,310
they lit people on fire,
threw them off buildings.
1067
00:59:43,179 --> 00:59:46,548
This is my charming way of
saying your husband's work
1068
00:59:46,550 --> 00:59:48,884
is very important...
1069
00:59:49,252 --> 00:59:50,886
and timely.
1070
00:59:50,888 --> 00:59:54,289
Because the techniques change,
the victims change,
1071
00:59:54,824 --> 00:59:58,594
but it's still a question.
How do these things happen?
1072
00:59:59,862 --> 01:00:02,197
How are they institutionalized?
1073
01:00:04,334 --> 01:00:06,201
The Algerian War,
1074
01:00:06,203 --> 01:00:09,538
the tortures. Do you know about
this in the States?
1075
01:00:09,540 --> 01:00:11,239
Yeah, of course.
1076
01:00:11,241 --> 01:00:15,210
You should do the obedience
experiments in Europe, Stanley.
1077
01:00:15,212 --> 01:00:17,946
France, Germany.
1078
01:00:17,948 --> 01:00:20,549
Recreate them.
1079
01:00:20,551 --> 01:00:22,684
Will it be different?
1080
01:00:23,252 --> 01:00:25,954
- I don't think so.
- Who would fund them?
1081
01:00:26,823 --> 01:00:30,092
The experiments are unethical.
Remember?
1082
01:00:31,127 --> 01:00:33,862
No tenure, no funding.
1083
01:00:34,297 --> 01:00:37,065
And the IRBs? The IRBs, yes,
1084
01:00:37,067 --> 01:00:40,102
basically you cannot do these
experiments without submitting
1085
01:00:40,104 --> 01:00:42,371
something to
the Internal Review Board.
1086
01:00:42,373 --> 01:00:45,841
He'll finish his book, and then
Stanley wants to move on
1087
01:00:45,843 --> 01:00:48,810
from the obedience experiments,
and why not?
1088
01:00:50,713 --> 01:00:54,383
Well, you look under a rock,
ugly things crawl out,
1089
01:00:54,385 --> 01:00:56,885
and we have to face them.
1090
01:00:59,122 --> 01:01:04,026
Your other experiments,
the letters, the maps,
1091
01:01:04,028 --> 01:01:06,094
clever, hopeful,
1092
01:01:06,096 --> 01:01:10,532
but you have to get back to
the obedience experiments.
1093
01:01:10,534 --> 01:01:12,000
I do. I have to.
1094
01:01:12,002 --> 01:01:15,370
Yes, Stanley.
You have no choice.
1095
01:01:18,307 --> 01:01:20,742
(steel drums playing)
1096
01:01:23,980 --> 01:01:26,381
Stanley: My new job at City University of New York
1097
01:01:26,383 --> 01:01:29,651
involves a jump in pay and full professorship.
1098
01:01:30,119 --> 01:01:33,321
The head of the department of social psychology.
1099
01:01:33,323 --> 01:01:36,458
The City of New York is
a major laboratory, to be
1100
01:01:36,460 --> 01:01:39,461
utilized in the research and
training of graduate students
1101
01:01:39,463 --> 01:01:41,563
in social psychology.
1102
01:01:41,565 --> 01:01:43,365
That's from
the CUNY brochure.
1103
01:01:44,300 --> 01:01:45,434
I wrote it.
1104
01:01:48,604 --> 01:01:51,139
Sasha finds an apartment for us in Riverdale
1105
01:01:51,141 --> 01:01:55,277
with a great view of the Hudson. Marc was born in 1967.
1106
01:01:55,279 --> 01:01:57,412
He hardly remembers Cambridge.
1107
01:01:58,748 --> 01:02:02,551
Even, or especially when nothing decisive is happening,
1108
01:02:02,553 --> 01:02:05,120
time refuses to stand still.
1109
01:02:09,192 --> 01:02:11,760
I walk to the station
every morning,
1110
01:02:11,762 --> 01:02:13,695
take the train into this city.
1111
01:02:13,697 --> 01:02:16,364
- I enjoy the routine.
- (train approaches)
1112
01:02:19,869 --> 01:02:23,238
Today's assignment.
Get on a local bus,
1113
01:02:23,240 --> 01:02:26,174
and then with the bus in motion
and loud enough
1114
01:02:26,176 --> 01:02:28,610
to be heard by your fellow
passengers,
1115
01:02:28,612 --> 01:02:30,679
sing your favorite song.
1116
01:02:30,681 --> 01:02:32,848
(students murmur)
1117
01:02:32,850 --> 01:02:34,816
Girl: Any song we want?
1118
01:02:34,818 --> 01:02:37,919
Just as long as you know the
words and can sing them loud
1119
01:02:37,921 --> 01:02:42,124
and clear. Pair up. Non-singer
takes notes, then switch roles.
1120
01:02:44,060 --> 01:02:49,064
You may say, "so what, singing
a song, anyone can do that."
1121
01:02:49,066 --> 01:02:50,699
Or, "I don't have to do that,
1122
01:02:50,701 --> 01:02:52,667
I'm an individual,
not a conformist."
1123
01:02:52,669 --> 01:02:54,035
Or, "This is silly,
1124
01:02:54,037 --> 01:02:57,706
it doesn't change the world
to sing a song."
1125
01:02:57,708 --> 01:03:00,275
My answer to you is simply this.
1126
01:03:00,743 --> 01:03:03,845
Get on the bus and sing.
1127
01:03:05,481 --> 01:03:07,916
Now go, right now. Come on.
1128
01:03:12,588 --> 01:03:14,122
No humming.
1129
01:03:14,124 --> 01:03:16,925
- (band plays music)
- (audience applauds)
1130
01:03:25,168 --> 01:03:28,537
My next guest is
professor of psychology
1131
01:03:28,539 --> 01:03:29,871
at the Graduate Center,
1132
01:03:29,873 --> 01:03:31,807
the City University in New York.
1133
01:03:31,809 --> 01:03:35,443
He's written a fascinating book,
a disturbing book.
1134
01:03:35,445 --> 01:03:39,147
Obedience To Authority: an Experimental View,
1135
01:03:39,149 --> 01:03:41,283
just published by Harper & Row.
1136
01:03:41,285 --> 01:03:46,221
Please welcome a very creative,
very controversial
1137
01:03:46,223 --> 01:03:49,624
sociopsychologist,
Stanley Milgram.
1138
01:03:49,626 --> 01:03:51,092
Doctor. Dr. Milgram.
1139
01:03:51,094 --> 01:03:55,831
So your subjects, they thought
the shocks were real,
1140
01:03:55,833 --> 01:03:59,668
that they were
delivering 450 volts,
1141
01:03:59,670 --> 01:04:01,736
- 65 percent of them.
- Mm.
1142
01:04:01,738 --> 01:04:05,907
But they were not particularly
aggressive or sadistic people.
1143
01:04:05,909 --> 01:04:08,577
They were a representative
cross-section of the average
1144
01:04:08,579 --> 01:04:11,847
American citizen living within
range of Yale University.
1145
01:04:11,849 --> 01:04:15,383
I thought, yes, we'd do
the experiment in New Haven,
1146
01:04:15,385 --> 01:04:18,086
and there'd be very limited
obedience,
1147
01:04:18,088 --> 01:04:21,456
and then we'd recreate
the experiment in, say, Berlin,
1148
01:04:21,458 --> 01:04:24,960
and find the rate of obedience
to be much higher.
1149
01:04:25,728 --> 01:04:28,063
Saved a bit on airfare,
didn't you?
1150
01:04:28,898 --> 01:04:31,333
So, let me get this straight.
1151
01:04:31,767 --> 01:04:34,469
You did the experiment
in the early 60's?
1152
01:04:34,971 --> 01:04:37,672
And here we are, 1974,
1153
01:04:37,674 --> 01:04:40,408
and your book still feels like
news.
1154
01:04:41,177 --> 01:04:42,544
Why is that?
1155
01:04:44,013 --> 01:04:46,781
People don't have the resources
to resist authority.
1156
01:04:46,783 --> 01:04:48,984
That's what the experiment
teaches us.
1157
01:04:48,986 --> 01:04:51,753
But people don't wanna hear it.
The experiment explains
1158
01:04:51,755 --> 01:04:56,691
a kind of flaw in
social thinking.
1159
01:04:56,693 --> 01:04:59,661
A deadening,
a suspension of moral value.
1160
01:05:00,062 --> 01:05:01,830
What would you
say to your critics,
1161
01:05:01,832 --> 01:05:06,134
critics who would insist
the moral lapse is yours?
1162
01:05:06,136 --> 01:05:10,872
One of them cites "the extremely
callous, deceitful way
1163
01:05:10,874 --> 01:05:12,807
the experiments were
carried out."
1164
01:05:12,809 --> 01:05:16,177
Another calls them "morally
repugnant, vile,"
1165
01:05:16,579 --> 01:05:20,582
um, "Milgram belongs on the
other end of the shock machine."
1166
01:05:21,384 --> 01:05:25,854
There certainly is a certain
kind of Kafkaesque quality
1167
01:05:25,856 --> 01:05:27,956
- to the experiments.
- Kafkaesque?
1168
01:05:27,958 --> 01:05:30,825
The experiment taught me
something about the, uh,
1169
01:05:30,827 --> 01:05:32,961
plasticity of human nature.
1170
01:05:32,963 --> 01:05:35,830
Not the evil,
not the aggressiveness,
1171
01:05:35,832 --> 01:05:38,166
but a certain kind of
malleability.
1172
01:05:38,935 --> 01:05:41,970
65 percent of volunteers were obedient.
1173
01:05:41,972 --> 01:05:45,607
That left 35 percent who recognized a moral breach,
1174
01:05:45,609 --> 01:05:49,210
took responsibility for their actions and resisted.
1175
01:05:49,212 --> 01:05:51,279
Williams: There is no permanent
tissue damage.
1176
01:05:51,281 --> 01:05:54,482
That's your opinion.
If he doesn't want to continue,
1177
01:05:54,484 --> 01:05:56,051
I'm taking orders from him.
1178
01:05:56,053 --> 01:05:58,486
The experiment requires
you continue.
1179
01:05:58,488 --> 01:06:00,055
You have no other choice.
1180
01:06:00,057 --> 01:06:03,058
If this were Russia maybe,
but not in America.
1181
01:06:03,759 --> 01:06:07,395
Stanley: But obedience, compliance, was more common.
1182
01:06:09,298 --> 01:06:13,168
You tell yourself: "I wouldn't do that. I'd never do that."
1183
01:06:13,170 --> 01:06:15,503
But then, what did Montaigne say?
1184
01:06:16,405 --> 01:06:21,242
"We are double in ourselves. What we believe we disbelieve,
1185
01:06:21,244 --> 01:06:24,646
and we cannot rid ourselves of what we condemn."
1186
01:06:40,329 --> 01:06:42,597
Another one of my experiments.
1187
01:06:42,599 --> 01:06:44,532
Hank, a CUNY grad student,
1188
01:06:44,534 --> 01:06:47,902
was the designated
"crowd crystal" staring up
1189
01:06:47,904 --> 01:06:49,537
at a fixed point in space,
1190
01:06:49,539 --> 01:06:53,308
looking up at a non- existent
"something".
1191
01:06:54,543 --> 01:06:56,511
As you multiply the confederates,
1192
01:06:56,513 --> 01:06:57,379
the people who stare up
1193
01:06:57,381 --> 01:07:02,283
the number of people who actually stop and look
1194
01:07:02,285 --> 01:07:04,619
increases exponentially.
1195
01:07:05,588 --> 01:07:08,823
Meanwhile, Obedience To
Authority gets translated into
1196
01:07:08,825 --> 01:07:12,494
eight languages and nominated for a national book award.
1197
01:07:13,295 --> 01:07:15,430
(whirs)
1198
01:07:16,399 --> 01:07:20,668
- October 24th, 1974, 4:25pm.
- (typewriter keys clatter)
1199
01:07:20,670 --> 01:07:23,972
Sheila Jarcho, J-A-R--
1200
01:07:23,974 --> 01:07:25,473
I know how to spell it,
Stanley.
1201
01:07:25,475 --> 01:07:29,544
C-H-O, working on the mental
maps project, comes in
1202
01:07:29,546 --> 01:07:32,914
and tells me errors were made in
the neighborhood map,
1203
01:07:32,916 --> 01:07:35,850
already duplicated in some
500 copies.
1204
01:07:36,485 --> 01:07:39,687
Her facial expression captures
the attitude that she's shown
1205
01:07:39,689 --> 01:07:42,357
all along in her capacity as
research assistant.
1206
01:07:42,359 --> 01:07:44,793
Are my eyes
really that close together?
1207
01:07:45,394 --> 01:07:47,962
On the whole, both men and women
are highly critical
1208
01:07:47,964 --> 01:07:50,131
when studying photographs of
themselves.
1209
01:07:50,133 --> 01:07:51,900
The vanity factor's
extraordinary
1210
01:07:51,902 --> 01:07:53,902
when people judge
their own image.
1211
01:07:53,904 --> 01:07:56,204
Do you ever worry that
everything's sort of
1212
01:07:56,206 --> 01:07:59,074
an anti-climax since
the obedience experiments,
1213
01:07:59,076 --> 01:08:03,011
and that your work,
really everything you're doing,
1214
01:08:03,013 --> 01:08:05,346
is just a flash in the pan?
1215
01:08:06,715 --> 01:08:10,919
The truth is, you're invested in
the idea of authority
1216
01:08:10,921 --> 01:08:13,121
and you love lording it over
all of us.
1217
01:08:13,123 --> 01:08:15,857
Me, the other students,
and even your wife.
1218
01:08:15,859 --> 01:08:17,058
Me?
1219
01:08:17,060 --> 01:08:18,993
Well, fuck yeah.
1220
01:08:18,995 --> 01:08:20,528
(laughing)
1221
01:08:20,530 --> 01:08:23,164
I work here because I get paid
for it
1222
01:08:23,166 --> 01:08:25,533
and I actually think
it's kind of fun.
1223
01:08:26,102 --> 01:08:28,603
Sheila, what's wrong with you?
1224
01:08:28,605 --> 01:08:32,607
Huh. Just keep doing
what he tells you to do.
1225
01:08:35,144 --> 01:08:37,812
I don't get along
with all my students.
1226
01:08:37,814 --> 01:08:39,681
The flash in the pan?
1227
01:08:39,683 --> 01:08:42,817
How many people can manage even
that flash?
1228
01:08:42,819 --> 01:08:45,053
I've done some psych
experiments,
1229
01:08:45,055 --> 01:08:46,988
but in my mind I'm still about
to write
1230
01:08:46,990 --> 01:08:49,290
my great Broadway musical.
1231
01:08:49,625 --> 01:08:53,728
4:27 pm. Paul Hollander,
looking tan and fit,
1232
01:08:53,730 --> 01:08:55,396
pays a visit from Massachusetts.
1233
01:08:55,398 --> 01:08:58,166
Tan and fit and miserable.
1234
01:08:58,168 --> 01:09:00,101
I am so sorry, Paul.
1235
01:09:00,103 --> 01:09:02,337
Well, another marriage
down the drain.
1236
01:09:02,339 --> 01:09:05,940
- I should've seen it coming.
- Sasha: It's terrible, rotten.
1237
01:09:05,942 --> 01:09:07,642
But you look good.
1238
01:09:07,644 --> 01:09:10,245
Paul: The worst of it is she's
erected a Berlin Wall
1239
01:09:10,247 --> 01:09:12,147
- between me and my daughter.
- Sasha: Oh.
1240
01:09:12,149 --> 01:09:14,849
Nice place you've got here.
1241
01:09:14,851 --> 01:09:17,418
It isn't Harvard, but thank you.
1242
01:09:17,420 --> 01:09:19,454
Harvard would never have given
you an office half as grand
1243
01:09:19,456 --> 01:09:23,191
as this, or found you
as bewitching a secretary.
1244
01:09:23,193 --> 01:09:25,793
Oh. Well, I just go
where the work is.
1245
01:09:26,762 --> 01:09:29,731
So, aren't you
going to take my picture, then?
1246
01:09:30,833 --> 01:09:33,168
I'm considering it.
1247
01:09:41,076 --> 01:09:42,911
Do you ever feel invincible
one moment
1248
01:09:42,913 --> 01:09:44,879
and then worthless the next?
1249
01:09:44,881 --> 01:09:46,281
(camera whirs)
1250
01:09:48,050 --> 01:09:50,385
- Yes and no.
- (camera whirs)
1251
01:09:58,260 --> 01:10:01,462
The camera begins to attract
its own subject matter.
1252
01:10:01,464 --> 01:10:05,133
It's no longer a passive
recorder, but actively
1253
01:10:05,135 --> 01:10:07,202
attracts the people it records.
1254
01:10:07,204 --> 01:10:09,537
(door opens)
1255
01:10:11,106 --> 01:10:14,275
Uh, Stanley Milgram?
1256
01:10:16,045 --> 01:10:18,179
How did I get to be so old?
1257
01:10:18,581 --> 01:10:21,216
What is the Kierkegaard quote?
1258
01:10:22,251 --> 01:10:25,320
"Life can always be...
1259
01:10:25,322 --> 01:10:27,488
Only be understood backward."
1260
01:10:27,490 --> 01:10:30,625
October 24th, 1974, 4:29 pm.
1261
01:10:30,627 --> 01:10:33,494
Conversation with Paul Hollander
interrupted by the arrival of
1262
01:10:33,496 --> 01:10:36,598
a messenger bearing, at last,
1263
01:10:36,600 --> 01:10:40,735
the German edition of
Obedience To Authority.
1264
01:10:40,737 --> 01:10:42,337
With crass barbed wire
cover design.
1265
01:10:42,339 --> 01:10:44,672
Paul: Mein Gott.
1266
01:10:45,107 --> 01:10:47,609
- What's your name?
- Thomas Shine.
1267
01:10:47,611 --> 01:10:50,545
Mind participating in
my experiment?
1268
01:10:50,879 --> 01:10:51,779
It depends.
1269
01:10:51,781 --> 01:10:55,383
He just wants to take your
picture. Everybody's doing it.
1270
01:10:56,352 --> 01:10:59,587
- OK. I need a signature.
- Oh, yes.
1271
01:11:00,589 --> 01:11:03,291
He's interested in
the unacknowledged power
1272
01:11:03,293 --> 01:11:05,460
of photographic images.
1273
01:11:06,028 --> 01:11:08,162
- (camera whirs)
- OK.
1274
01:11:08,697 --> 01:11:12,934
Uh, "Life can only be understood
backwards
1275
01:11:12,936 --> 01:11:15,770
but has to be lived forwards."
1276
01:11:21,610 --> 01:11:23,244
(door closes)
1277
01:11:23,246 --> 01:11:25,713
(steel drums playing)
1278
01:11:28,517 --> 01:11:31,386
Stanley: Around this time, I was also working on
1279
01:11:31,388 --> 01:11:33,488
The Familiar Stranger.
1280
01:11:33,922 --> 01:11:35,823
(train approaches)
1281
01:11:35,825 --> 01:11:39,027
We take photographs of commuters on a train platform.
1282
01:11:39,029 --> 01:11:42,096
Each figure in the photographs
are given a number.
1283
01:11:42,098 --> 01:11:43,765
The photos are duplicated,
1284
01:11:43,767 --> 01:11:46,067
and a week later
the students follow up.
1285
01:11:48,070 --> 01:11:50,271
Hello. I'm a student at CUNY.
1286
01:11:50,273 --> 01:11:52,674
Would you mind filling out
this questionnaire?
1287
01:11:52,676 --> 01:11:54,275
- OK.
- Also,
1288
01:11:54,277 --> 01:11:56,511
do you recognize
any of these people?
1289
01:11:56,513 --> 01:11:57,812
No.
1290
01:11:57,814 --> 01:12:00,682
- What about here?
- Well, that's me.
1291
01:12:01,317 --> 01:12:03,284
Yes.
Can you identify anyone else?
1292
01:12:03,286 --> 01:12:05,620
Uh, not by name.
1293
01:12:06,588 --> 01:12:09,524
Most commuters recognize,
on average, four individuals
1294
01:12:09,526 --> 01:12:12,393
they see in their daily routine
but never speak to.
1295
01:12:12,395 --> 01:12:14,062
Familiar strangers.
1296
01:12:14,064 --> 01:12:16,764
Amongst these
are "sociometric stars".
1297
01:12:16,766 --> 01:12:19,367
Figures that they not only
recognize
1298
01:12:19,369 --> 01:12:21,703
but even fantasize about.
1299
01:12:25,574 --> 01:12:28,576
They wonder what kind of lives
these strangers lead,
1300
01:12:28,578 --> 01:12:30,511
what their jobs are like.
1301
01:12:30,513 --> 01:12:33,047
And if they ran into each other
in another place,
1302
01:12:33,049 --> 01:12:36,651
or if some emergency jolted them
out of this routine,
1303
01:12:36,653 --> 01:12:40,621
they might start to speak,
actually know one another.
1304
01:12:45,861 --> 01:12:49,464
I teach at CUNY, and I see you
out here all the time
1305
01:12:49,466 --> 01:12:52,266
and I wonder about the things
you must see.
1306
01:12:52,268 --> 01:12:54,202
You look familiar.
What do you teach?
1307
01:12:54,204 --> 01:12:57,739
Social psychology. "The City of
New York is a vast laboratory."
1308
01:12:57,741 --> 01:13:00,408
I had no idea you were English.
You're English?
1309
01:13:00,410 --> 01:13:02,777
- Yes.
- Assuming that accent is real.
1310
01:13:03,479 --> 01:13:06,614
- I saw you on TV.
- Good Morning America.
1311
01:13:06,616 --> 01:13:09,584
- I knew you looked familiar.
- He tortures people
1312
01:13:09,586 --> 01:13:12,353
- with electric shocks.
- That isn't accurate.
1313
01:13:12,355 --> 01:13:14,288
He's very controversial.
1314
01:13:14,290 --> 01:13:16,591
Have you read my book?
Have you?
1315
01:13:16,593 --> 01:13:19,127
I don't get a chance to read as
much as I'd like to.
1316
01:13:19,129 --> 01:13:21,195
- It's OK.
- I read the review.
1317
01:13:21,197 --> 01:13:23,264
Well, there were many reviews.
1318
01:13:23,266 --> 01:13:26,267
It was The Times, wasn't it?
Harsh.
1319
01:13:26,269 --> 01:13:28,403
Yes, it was. It was harsh.
1320
01:13:28,405 --> 01:13:31,406
It was nominated for an award,
but yeah, who cares?
1321
01:13:31,408 --> 01:13:33,775
Why disabuse yourself?
1322
01:13:33,777 --> 01:13:34,876
What?
1323
01:13:34,878 --> 01:13:37,779
I don't wanna make you angry,
ma'am. Just...
1324
01:13:38,480 --> 01:13:40,348
have a nice day, OK?
1325
01:13:40,350 --> 01:13:42,884
Abe, it was a pleasure
meeting you.
1326
01:13:50,325 --> 01:13:52,660
(whirs)
1327
01:13:53,462 --> 01:13:56,030
I was bowled over when I first
read about it,
1328
01:13:56,032 --> 01:13:58,232
and you in The Times,
1329
01:13:58,234 --> 01:14:00,435
and then I read the original
material
1330
01:14:00,437 --> 01:14:02,670
and the scientific journals,
and I mulled.
1331
01:14:02,672 --> 01:14:04,772
- You m- mulled?
- I mulled.
1332
01:14:04,774 --> 01:14:08,943
This mulling produced the idea
to do a TV play
1333
01:14:08,945 --> 01:14:12,747
of a hopefully high caliber, for
an accepted show,
1334
01:14:12,749 --> 01:14:16,150
of a decently adult level,
treating, in fictional form,
1335
01:14:16,152 --> 01:14:19,387
the kind of experiments you
performed and its aftermath.
1336
01:14:19,389 --> 01:14:22,156
Using it as a springboard for
my own characters
1337
01:14:22,158 --> 01:14:25,259
and situational inventions.
1338
01:14:25,261 --> 01:14:28,129
I, uh, I kept this.
1339
01:14:29,998 --> 01:14:32,366
D'you see how yellow?
1340
01:14:32,368 --> 01:14:35,303
Stan, sorry, help me.
I was just wondering.
1341
01:14:35,305 --> 01:14:37,438
Your name, its derivation?
1342
01:14:37,973 --> 01:14:40,508
Milgram means "pomegranate"
in Hebrew.
1343
01:14:40,510 --> 01:14:43,711
It's one of the seven fruits of
the Bible. I'm Jewish,
1344
01:14:43,713 --> 01:14:45,446
if that's what you're asking?
1345
01:14:45,448 --> 01:14:47,615
Apples is another, right?
1346
01:14:47,617 --> 01:14:50,685
Figs, grapes.
Olives, they're a fruit?
1347
01:14:50,687 --> 01:14:55,289
Anyhow, when you point out
the parallels, the connections,
1348
01:14:55,291 --> 01:14:58,659
Hannah Arendt,
The Banality Of Evil,
1349
01:14:58,661 --> 01:15:00,728
the My Lai massacre,
all of that,
1350
01:15:00,730 --> 01:15:03,164
I see where you're coming from.
1351
01:15:03,166 --> 01:15:06,734
I'm here because a serious
situation is pending
1352
01:15:06,736 --> 01:15:09,303
with regard to
the drama I propose.
1353
01:15:10,105 --> 01:15:14,809
Playhouse 90, the Columbia
Broadcasting System.
1354
01:15:15,177 --> 01:15:17,512
CBS.
1355
01:15:32,494 --> 01:15:35,563
Michele, ma belle. Ca va?
1356
01:15:35,864 --> 01:15:37,131
Hi.
1357
01:15:38,400 --> 01:15:40,968
I was just gonna get
some ice cream.
1358
01:15:50,712 --> 01:15:53,047
(crockery clatters)
1359
01:15:59,821 --> 01:16:03,524
Whenever I'm up late like this,
which is a lot,
1360
01:16:03,526 --> 01:16:05,560
I think of your grandfather.
1361
01:16:05,562 --> 01:16:08,329
- Sam.
- Yeah, that was his name.
1362
01:16:08,331 --> 01:16:09,664
Yeah.
1363
01:16:10,465 --> 01:16:12,233
He died.
1364
01:16:12,235 --> 01:16:16,737
That's right, in his sleep. It's
the luckiest way, people say,
1365
01:16:16,739 --> 01:16:18,739
not to know what's happening.
1366
01:16:19,708 --> 01:16:21,943
Why... Why did he die?
1367
01:16:21,945 --> 01:16:23,210
Hmm.
1368
01:16:24,479 --> 01:16:25,980
Heart disease.
1369
01:16:26,782 --> 01:16:27,848
It was before you were born,
1370
01:16:27,850 --> 01:16:30,785
before your mother
could meet him.
1371
01:16:32,154 --> 01:16:36,524
He was a baker,
his specialty were cakes.
1372
01:16:36,526 --> 01:16:38,025
- He worked late.
- Mmm-hmm.
1373
01:16:38,027 --> 01:16:40,928
I got it from him.
Maybe you'll get it from me.
1374
01:16:43,098 --> 01:16:44,999
(siren blares in distance)
1375
01:16:45,001 --> 01:16:47,568
Bellak: Basically there are three types of people.
1376
01:16:47,570 --> 01:16:50,137
That's what
your research confirms.
1377
01:16:50,706 --> 01:16:53,341
There's the person
who makes things happen,
1378
01:16:53,343 --> 01:16:56,444
the person who
watches things happen,
1379
01:16:56,446 --> 01:16:59,580
then the person who says,
"What happened?"
1380
01:16:59,582 --> 01:17:02,116
- Right?
- (buzzer)
1381
01:17:02,751 --> 01:17:06,887
I'm a dramatist, I was explicit,
not a scientist.
1382
01:17:06,889 --> 01:17:11,826
Your work is a springboard for
revealing basic human truths.
1383
01:17:11,828 --> 01:17:14,996
You get your consultant's fee.
What's the problem?
1384
01:17:14,998 --> 01:17:18,799
- It isn't about the money.
- (beeping)
1385
01:17:19,901 --> 01:17:21,402
(buzzer)
1386
01:17:22,270 --> 01:17:24,572
Secretary: I'm sorry, she needs to speak to you again.
1387
01:17:24,574 --> 01:17:26,741
She says it's urgent.
1388
01:17:28,477 --> 01:17:30,811
Tell her to relax.
1389
01:17:37,653 --> 01:17:39,987
Excuse me.
1390
01:17:44,226 --> 01:17:46,360
(telephone rings in distance)
1391
01:17:47,896 --> 01:17:50,231
(typewriter keys clatter)
1392
01:18:15,057 --> 01:18:17,191
(telephone beeps)
1393
01:18:19,461 --> 01:18:21,796
Secretary: Dr. Stanley?
1394
01:18:22,998 --> 01:18:24,498
Yes?
1395
01:18:24,500 --> 01:18:28,002
Mr. Bellak won't be back in his office this afternoon.
1396
01:18:28,537 --> 01:18:30,204
Excuse me?
1397
01:18:30,206 --> 01:18:32,473
He can't talk to you today anymore.
1398
01:18:33,341 --> 01:18:35,476
He says you can visit the set.
1399
01:18:38,246 --> 01:18:39,980
OK.
1400
01:18:54,629 --> 01:18:57,465
So, you sold him the rights?
1401
01:18:58,867 --> 01:19:03,003
No. But it's a gray area.
1402
01:19:03,005 --> 01:19:06,807
But it's your book, it's your
work, it's your experiments.
1403
01:19:06,809 --> 01:19:10,111
Either you did it or you sold it
or you didn't. Right?
1404
01:19:10,113 --> 01:19:12,980
In the opinion of
Harper's legal department,
1405
01:19:12,982 --> 01:19:15,916
we don't have a supportable
claim, not on the basis of
1406
01:19:15,918 --> 01:19:19,754
copyright infringement,
because the show is fiction.
1407
01:19:19,756 --> 01:19:22,156
Are we finished with this?
1408
01:19:22,158 --> 01:19:24,792
They gave me a consulting fee.
Is that enough?
1409
01:19:25,794 --> 01:19:28,629
Your father's turning into
a fictional character.
1410
01:19:28,631 --> 01:19:30,664
- Michele: Why?
- Yes, why?
1411
01:19:30,666 --> 01:19:32,233
And why do they have
to make you a goy ?
1412
01:19:32,235 --> 01:19:34,702
It's not about me.
I'm just a springboard.
1413
01:19:34,704 --> 01:19:37,071
- Why?
- I don't know.
1414
01:19:37,073 --> 01:19:41,242
Sasha: Oh, I see.
So, you had no choice?
1415
01:19:41,244 --> 01:19:44,845
I could just give the money back
but they'd make the show anyway.
1416
01:19:44,847 --> 01:19:47,114
Why don't I give the money back?
1417
01:19:47,116 --> 01:19:49,683
I'll give the money back!
That's a good idea.
1418
01:19:49,685 --> 01:19:52,386
You know what?
You don't have to be so snippy.
1419
01:20:02,564 --> 01:20:04,965
- (buzzer)
- They don't just come in
1420
01:20:04,967 --> 01:20:07,234
and sadistically pull these
switches, bing, bing,
1421
01:20:07,236 --> 01:20:10,404
they have an inner struggle
not to obey.
1422
01:20:11,940 --> 01:20:14,308
Their inner pain is
the evidence to that.
1423
01:20:14,310 --> 01:20:17,144
Steven, what you're doing
is very important,
1424
01:20:17,146 --> 01:20:19,580
and I love the design.
It's audacious.
1425
01:20:22,017 --> 01:20:23,284
And?
1426
01:20:23,286 --> 01:20:27,488
I am being careful, which is why
I've got tenure around here
1427
01:20:27,490 --> 01:20:29,824
long before black
became popular.
1428
01:20:30,792 --> 01:20:33,227
It's tricky. Very tricky.
1429
01:20:33,229 --> 01:20:37,198
There'll be criticism of
anything breaking new ground.
1430
01:20:37,200 --> 01:20:39,800
There are times when
your life resembles a bad movie,
1431
01:20:39,802 --> 01:20:41,969
but nothing prepares you
if your life
1432
01:20:41,971 --> 01:20:43,604
actually become a bad movie.
1433
01:20:43,606 --> 01:20:47,408
Here's Dr. Steven Turner,
Steven/Stanley, Turner/Milgram,
1434
01:20:47,410 --> 01:20:51,679
of Rutledge University,
a bachelor and a WASP,
1435
01:20:51,681 --> 01:20:54,448
being played by William Shatner,
1436
01:20:54,450 --> 01:20:57,785
four years after
his last Star Trek episode .
1437
01:20:57,787 --> 01:21:01,222
Ossie Davis plays his colleague
and best friend.
1438
01:21:02,190 --> 01:21:05,459
I don't believe you're
adequately considering
1439
01:21:05,461 --> 01:21:07,928
faculty reaction.
1440
01:21:07,930 --> 01:21:11,398
You may find yourself teaching
in Siberia.
1441
01:21:24,179 --> 01:21:26,547
This has to be somewhat weird
for you.
1442
01:21:28,316 --> 01:21:31,852
Well, I've made some films
myself actually.
1443
01:21:31,854 --> 01:21:33,520
Documentaries.
1444
01:21:33,522 --> 01:21:37,124
I think Ossie may have meant,
and I was wondering also,
1445
01:21:37,126 --> 01:21:41,962
do you have a best friend
who is, you know, a brother?
1446
01:21:42,931 --> 01:21:47,635
I mean this tradition of
a black best friend,
1447
01:21:47,637 --> 01:21:49,703
where did that come from?
1448
01:21:49,705 --> 01:21:52,273
You don't have
a black best friend, Bill?
1449
01:21:52,275 --> 01:21:54,408
No. Do you?
1450
01:21:55,343 --> 01:21:58,345
This character isn't me.
I'm just a springboard.
1451
01:21:58,347 --> 01:22:00,781
Did you know I did the first
interracial kiss
1452
01:22:00,783 --> 01:22:02,850
in US TV history?
1453
01:22:02,852 --> 01:22:05,185
Ah, Star Trek, sure.
1454
01:22:05,921 --> 01:22:08,989
I kissed Nichelle Nichols on
network TV.
1455
01:22:09,557 --> 01:22:12,226
Controversial, but you did it.
1456
01:22:12,861 --> 01:22:15,162
The network was... nervous.
1457
01:22:15,864 --> 01:22:18,732
They insisted we shoot
an alternative version,
1458
01:22:18,734 --> 01:22:22,036
but during the close up
I did this...
1459
01:22:26,408 --> 01:22:29,543
First time, 1968,
1460
01:22:29,545 --> 01:22:31,345
in the history of TV.
1461
01:22:34,382 --> 01:22:37,251
I've read about
your experiments, Doctor.
1462
01:22:40,388 --> 01:22:42,856
Did you happen
to use any black folk?
1463
01:22:42,858 --> 01:22:44,625
- Stanley: Yes, of course.
- (clicking)
1464
01:22:47,662 --> 01:22:49,296
And the results?
1465
01:22:49,298 --> 01:22:51,832
They fared the same as
everyone else.
1466
01:22:51,834 --> 01:22:54,301
Roughly 65 percent compliant.
1467
01:22:54,303 --> 01:22:56,937
You didn't force or
threaten anyone, right?
1468
01:22:56,939 --> 01:22:59,173
- No.
- You didn't twist anyone's arm?
1469
01:22:59,175 --> 01:23:02,176
Didn't hold a gun
to anyone's head?
1470
01:23:02,178 --> 01:23:05,412
You see, it brings to mind when
I was six or seven years old,
1471
01:23:05,414 --> 01:23:07,481
coming home from school.
1472
01:23:07,483 --> 01:23:10,284
Two policemen call me over
from their car.
1473
01:23:11,152 --> 01:23:13,387
"Come over here, boy.
1474
01:23:13,389 --> 01:23:15,656
Come on over."
1475
01:23:15,658 --> 01:23:18,125
- Have I heard this one?
- No.
1476
01:23:18,127 --> 01:23:20,060
They tell me to get into
the car,
1477
01:23:20,062 --> 01:23:23,364
and they take me
to the precinct station.
1478
01:23:23,366 --> 01:23:26,500
Then one of them
takes a jar of cane syrup
1479
01:23:26,502 --> 01:23:28,736
and pours it over my head.
1480
01:23:28,738 --> 01:23:33,173
And they both laugh like it's
the funniest thing in the world.
1481
01:23:33,675 --> 01:23:35,142
I laugh too.
1482
01:23:36,511 --> 01:23:40,714
Then they give me hunks of
peanut brittle and let me go.
1483
01:23:42,017 --> 01:23:45,052
It took me 30 years
before I told anyone.
1484
01:23:46,421 --> 01:23:49,256
Where was this, Ossie?
Down South?
1485
01:23:49,258 --> 01:23:52,326
Well, it doesn't matter where,
and that's my point.
1486
01:23:52,328 --> 01:23:53,894
You don't have to go to Germany
1487
01:23:53,896 --> 01:23:56,196
to learn about
obedience to authority.
1488
01:23:56,198 --> 01:23:58,699
This in the book. Actually,
it's the tenth chapter,
1489
01:23:58,701 --> 01:24:01,969
- which very few people get to.
- The Tenth Level.
1490
01:24:02,570 --> 01:24:06,140
The agentic state,
in which the demands of
1491
01:24:06,142 --> 01:24:07,941
the democratically installed
authority
1492
01:24:07,943 --> 01:24:09,543
conflict with conscience.
1493
01:24:10,078 --> 01:24:11,979
The Banality Of Evil.
1494
01:24:11,981 --> 01:24:14,114
(bell rings)
1495
01:24:14,783 --> 01:24:18,085
I don't take responsibility.
Do you take responsibility?
1496
01:24:18,087 --> 01:24:21,255
I take responsibility.
Now count that as wrong.
1497
01:24:21,257 --> 01:24:22,723
No response counts as wrong.
1498
01:24:22,725 --> 01:24:26,093
You pull the switch then,
dammit, you pull the switch.
1499
01:24:26,095 --> 01:24:28,295
Mr. Dahlquist, that's your job.
1500
01:24:29,864 --> 01:24:31,365
No, I won't.
1501
01:24:31,367 --> 01:24:33,734
Nobody can learn anything
like this.
1502
01:24:35,236 --> 01:24:38,072
There was a time, I suspect,
when men and women
1503
01:24:38,074 --> 01:24:40,374
could give a fully human
response to any situation.
1504
01:24:40,376 --> 01:24:44,244
When we could be fully absorbed
in the world as human beings.
1505
01:24:44,946 --> 01:24:46,747
But more often, now,
1506
01:24:47,549 --> 01:24:50,117
people don't get to see
the whole situation
1507
01:24:50,119 --> 01:24:51,785
but only some small part of it.
1508
01:24:51,787 --> 01:24:55,322
There's a division of labor,
and people carry out small,
1509
01:24:55,324 --> 01:24:57,958
narrow, specialized jobs,
1510
01:24:57,960 --> 01:25:01,795
and we can't act without some
kind of direction from on high.
1511
01:25:02,931 --> 01:25:05,566
I call this "the agentic state".
1512
01:25:05,568 --> 01:25:08,235
The individual yields
to authority,
1513
01:25:08,237 --> 01:25:12,172
and in doing so becomes
alienated from his own actions.
1514
01:25:13,108 --> 01:25:15,509
Steven: Mr. Dahlquist,
you agreed to the rules.
1515
01:25:15,511 --> 01:25:19,313
The agentic state is
"store policy".
1516
01:25:19,315 --> 01:25:21,782
It's "I'm just doing my job."
1517
01:25:22,750 --> 01:25:25,185
Or "That's not my job."
1518
01:25:25,187 --> 01:25:28,622
Or "I don't make the rules."
"We don't do that here."
1519
01:25:28,624 --> 01:25:32,392
"Just following orders."
"It's the law."
1520
01:25:32,394 --> 01:25:35,829
In the agentic state,
the individual defines himself
1521
01:25:35,831 --> 01:25:38,966
as an instrument carrying out
the wishes of others.
1522
01:25:38,968 --> 01:25:41,735
A soldier, a nurse,
an "administrator".
1523
01:25:41,737 --> 01:25:42,769
An actor.
1524
01:25:42,771 --> 01:25:48,041
A corporate employee, or even,
yes, academics and artists.
1525
01:25:48,043 --> 01:25:51,879
- Please continue.
- Oh God. Oh God.
1526
01:25:52,580 --> 01:25:54,715
- Mr. Dahlquist?
- Just shut up a minute!
1527
01:25:55,750 --> 01:25:57,885
Now hold on.
1528
01:25:58,887 --> 01:26:00,687
(grunting)
1529
01:26:01,356 --> 01:26:04,825
- Ossie: Come on, come on.
- Dahlquist: Son of a bitch!
1530
01:26:04,827 --> 01:26:07,561
A person has a choice.
1531
01:26:07,563 --> 01:26:10,797
He or she chooses
to become agentic.
1532
01:26:10,799 --> 01:26:13,167
But once you assume the role,
1533
01:26:13,169 --> 01:26:15,502
it's almost impossible
to go back.
1534
01:26:17,272 --> 01:26:19,706
- (buzzer)
- Wrong.
1535
01:26:19,708 --> 01:26:22,075
195 volts.
1536
01:26:22,077 --> 01:26:24,411
- "Dance."
- (man grunts)
1537
01:26:25,313 --> 01:26:27,214
Let me out of here! Let me out!
1538
01:26:27,216 --> 01:26:28,815
Man 1: Continue, please.
1539
01:26:28,817 --> 01:26:30,050
Stanley: We always asked,
1540
01:26:30,052 --> 01:26:31,752
"Is there anything the man could've said
1541
01:26:31,754 --> 01:26:34,321
to stop you from administering the shocks?"
1542
01:26:34,323 --> 01:26:36,657
And they'd always say: "I don't think so. No."
1543
01:26:36,659 --> 01:26:39,193
Jim: (recording) I told you I have a heart condition!
1544
01:26:46,868 --> 01:26:48,168
Michele.
1545
01:26:48,170 --> 01:26:50,504
Sit up here. All right?
1546
01:26:53,675 --> 01:26:55,976
Could we get a couple of
hot chocolates?
1547
01:26:55,978 --> 01:26:57,511
- You want chocolate?
- Yes, please.
1548
01:26:57,513 --> 01:26:59,780
- Hot chocolates all around?
- Yeah, yeah.
1549
01:26:59,782 --> 01:27:02,683
Do you want anything?
OK, no, we're fine.
1550
01:27:03,384 --> 01:27:06,520
I need you to stay put,
stay in your seats. OK?
1551
01:27:16,864 --> 01:27:18,999
I'm sorry.
1552
01:27:20,435 --> 01:27:23,737
I could say it a thousand times
and mean it every time.
1553
01:27:25,440 --> 01:27:28,242
Marc, turn around in your seat.
1554
01:27:35,617 --> 01:27:37,284
Piaget.
1555
01:27:40,188 --> 01:27:42,889
You remember when
I was translating Piaget?
1556
01:27:45,360 --> 01:27:47,894
I hit this line about
child development.
1557
01:27:48,997 --> 01:27:53,834
It's the specific point when
the growing child is able
1558
01:27:53,836 --> 01:27:58,138
to recognize a gap between what
exists and what might exist.
1559
01:27:58,140 --> 01:28:01,375
And it occurred to me,
we choose our reality
1560
01:28:01,377 --> 01:28:03,710
when we choose another person.
1561
01:28:06,447 --> 01:28:09,116
What does that mean?
1562
01:28:09,118 --> 01:28:11,218
Marriage is not a fantasy.
1563
01:28:11,220 --> 01:28:15,422
No, no, right.
1564
01:28:15,857 --> 01:28:17,391
Right.
1565
01:28:19,160 --> 01:28:21,495
But it is a choice.
1566
01:28:23,131 --> 01:28:27,934
You have to know
that I choose you.
1567
01:28:29,737 --> 01:28:31,872
Every day I choose you.
1568
01:28:44,218 --> 01:28:45,986
1984.
1569
01:28:47,155 --> 01:28:49,289
1984 was a big year for me.
1570
01:28:49,291 --> 01:28:51,591
My lecture fees peaked,
I was asked to speak
1571
01:28:51,593 --> 01:28:55,262
all over the world, about
the obedience experiments,
1572
01:28:55,264 --> 01:28:58,632
of course, in relation to
Orwell's prophetic book.
1573
01:28:58,634 --> 01:29:02,502
A book that describes
a totalitarian world
1574
01:29:02,504 --> 01:29:05,839
where people aren't very good
at thinking for themselves.
1575
01:29:12,947 --> 01:29:15,415
¶ Who can explain it? ¶
1576
01:29:15,417 --> 01:29:18,118
¶ Who can tell you why ¶
1577
01:29:18,120 --> 01:29:20,954
¶ Fools give you reasons ¶
1578
01:29:20,956 --> 01:29:27,861
¶ Wise men never try ¶
1579
01:29:29,764 --> 01:29:33,700
1984 was also the year
that I died.
1580
01:29:44,379 --> 01:29:46,713
I was 51.
1581
01:29:52,387 --> 01:29:56,323
Excuse me? We need to see
a doctor immediately.
1582
01:29:56,325 --> 01:29:59,426
I'm Stanley Milgram.
This is my ID.
1583
01:29:59,428 --> 01:30:02,095
I believe I'm having
my fifth heart attack.
1584
01:30:03,531 --> 01:30:05,599
Dr. Heissenbuttel--
1585
01:30:05,601 --> 01:30:07,501
That's who treated me last time.
1586
01:30:07,503 --> 01:30:09,836
You need to fill this out.
1587
01:30:09,838 --> 01:30:11,972
The agentic personality.
1588
01:31:14,335 --> 01:31:16,903
Stanley: No one can truly knowwhat they might or might not do
1589
01:31:16,905 --> 01:31:20,907
when presented with the demands of a particular situation.
1590
01:31:20,909 --> 01:31:24,211
In 2008, a professor at Santa Clara University replicated
1591
01:31:24,213 --> 01:31:28,048
the obedience experiments and got roughly the same results.
1592
01:31:28,050 --> 01:31:31,952
Over 60 percent of volunteers delivered the full shocks.
1593
01:31:31,954 --> 01:31:34,754
In 2010, the experiments were duplicated
1594
01:31:34,756 --> 01:31:37,023
on a French reality TV show,
1595
01:31:37,025 --> 01:31:39,826
Le Jeu de la Mort, The Game of Death.
1596
01:31:39,828 --> 01:31:43,497
Participants were egged on by a live studio audience.
1597
01:31:43,499 --> 01:31:45,565
Over 80 percent went all the way.
1598
01:31:47,134 --> 01:31:49,269
(siren blares)
1599
01:31:54,041 --> 01:31:56,843
Alexandra Milgram, Sasha,
1600
01:31:56,845 --> 01:31:59,513
continues to live in the apartment we shared
1601
01:31:59,515 --> 01:32:03,049
in Riverdale. Our children live with their children
1602
01:32:03,051 --> 01:32:05,185
near Boston and Toronto.
1603
01:32:05,987 --> 01:32:08,121
Sasha never remarried.
1604
01:32:13,628 --> 01:32:16,062
The obedience experiments are cited and discussed
1605
01:32:16,064 --> 01:32:20,133
in nearly every introductory psychology textbook worldwide.
1606
01:32:21,269 --> 01:32:23,436
My obedience film is screened
1607
01:32:23,438 --> 01:32:26,640
for every incoming class at Westpoint.
1608
01:32:26,642 --> 01:32:30,176
And my methods and results continue to be challenged,
1609
01:32:30,178 --> 01:32:32,012
scorned, debunked,
1610
01:32:32,014 --> 01:32:35,448
yet every time a new outrage is unleashed out into the world,
1611
01:32:35,450 --> 01:32:37,984
sanctioned and systematic acts of violence,
1612
01:32:37,986 --> 01:32:41,421
the obedience experiments re-enter the conversation,
1613
01:32:41,423 --> 01:32:43,790
reframing unanswerable questions.
1614
01:32:45,192 --> 01:32:47,661
You could say we're puppets.
1615
01:32:47,663 --> 01:32:53,466
But I believe that we are puppets with perception,
1616
01:32:53,468 --> 01:32:55,135
with awareness.
1617
01:32:55,137 --> 01:33:00,240
Sometimes we can see the strings and, perhaps,
1618
01:33:00,242 --> 01:33:04,077
our awareness is the first step in our liberation.
1618
01:33:05,305 --> 01:33:11,217
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