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1
00:00:16,190 --> 00:00:18,453
Is that all you got?
2
00:00:20,150 --> 00:00:23,327
I was hoping to trade these
for some coffee beans.
3
00:00:24,807 --> 00:00:26,591
You hungry?
4
00:00:26,635 --> 00:00:28,245
Yeah.
5
00:00:28,289 --> 00:00:29,768
Get some water.
6
00:00:29,812 --> 00:00:31,379
I'll make lunch.
7
00:00:34,164 --> 00:00:37,211
[birds chirping]
8
00:00:44,261 --> 00:00:46,350
[alarm blaring]
9
00:00:50,311 --> 00:00:52,139
You know what to do, son.
10
00:00:52,182 --> 00:00:54,054
Yes, sir.
11
00:00:54,097 --> 00:00:55,794
Remember...
12
00:00:55,838 --> 00:00:57,318
this is our land.
13
00:00:57,361 --> 00:00:58,623
It's kill or be killed.
14
00:01:01,365 --> 00:01:03,063
[alarm continues blaring]
15
00:01:08,938 --> 00:01:10,461
OFFICER [over bullhorn]:
Mr. Schwieger. State Police.
16
00:01:10,505 --> 00:01:12,289
I need you to step outside.
17
00:01:12,333 --> 00:01:13,595
NORMAN: Now.[gunshot]
18
00:01:13,638 --> 00:01:14,900
[glass breaking]
19
00:01:14,944 --> 00:01:16,946
[officer shouting outside]
20
00:01:16,989 --> 00:01:19,818
[gunshot, gun cocking]
21
00:01:19,862 --> 00:01:23,083
Kill or be killed.[gunshot]
22
00:01:23,126 --> 00:01:24,736
So where are we going?
23
00:01:24,780 --> 00:01:26,173
What are we doing?
24
00:01:26,216 --> 00:01:28,784
And who is this wonder of
wonders I just have to meet?
25
00:01:28,827 --> 00:01:30,960
What did you call him?
A walking anachronism?
26
00:01:31,003 --> 00:01:33,310
Lucas Schwieger, 16.
27
00:01:33,354 --> 00:01:35,182
He never attended school.
28
00:01:35,225 --> 00:01:37,575
He lives a completely
sheltered existence
29
00:01:37,619 --> 00:01:40,143
in a cabin with no
electricity or running water
30
00:01:40,187 --> 00:01:42,363
in the woods above
Sullivan County.
31
00:01:42,406 --> 00:01:44,147
His father, whom
he lived with,
32
00:01:44,191 --> 00:01:46,628
described himself as
a radical survivalist.
33
00:01:46,671 --> 00:01:49,500
He was, as far as I can tell,
the only person
34
00:01:49,544 --> 00:01:51,502
that Lucas had any
sustained contact with
35
00:01:51,546 --> 00:01:53,809
during his 16
years of life.
36
00:01:53,852 --> 00:01:55,115
Wow.
37
00:01:55,158 --> 00:01:57,247
A caseworker with
Child Protective Services
38
00:01:57,291 --> 00:02:00,816
heard about him, grew concerned,
came to pay him a visit...
39
00:02:00,859 --> 00:02:03,166
escorted by
the New York State Police.
40
00:02:03,210 --> 00:02:06,474
"Father and son opened fire,
killing the caseworker
41
00:02:06,517 --> 00:02:08,824
"and wounding
the State Police officer,
42
00:02:08,867 --> 00:02:12,132
who fired back,
killing the father."
43
00:02:12,175 --> 00:02:15,178
Ballistics indicate that while
Lucas shot the police officer,
44
00:02:15,222 --> 00:02:18,355
wounding him in the leg,
he didn't actually kill anyone.
45
00:02:18,399 --> 00:02:20,314
It was the father's gun
that did that.
46
00:02:20,357 --> 00:02:22,751
Nonetheless, he's being charged
as an adult for murder
47
00:02:22,794 --> 00:02:24,840
as part of a joint venture.
48
00:02:24,883 --> 00:02:27,756
Does he even understand
what's going on? The charges?
49
00:02:27,799 --> 00:02:30,193
That they want him
to stand trial?
50
00:02:30,237 --> 00:02:32,239
They want to punish him
for what happened?
51
00:02:32,282 --> 00:02:34,328
He didn't even understand
what an attorney was
52
00:02:34,371 --> 00:02:36,330
until I explained it to him.[sighs]
53
00:02:36,373 --> 00:02:38,462
You know, it's not like
he's mentally impaired.
54
00:02:38,506 --> 00:02:40,160
In fact, in the little time
I've spent with him,
55
00:02:40,203 --> 00:02:41,770
he seems innately intelligent.
56
00:02:41,813 --> 00:02:43,424
But his only understanding
of the world
57
00:02:43,467 --> 00:02:45,208
is what's been taught
to him by his father.
58
00:02:45,252 --> 00:02:47,210
Well, obviously,
some doctor, somewhere,
59
00:02:47,254 --> 00:02:49,647
deemed him fit
to stand trial.[buzzer blares]
60
00:02:49,691 --> 00:02:51,258
You should also know
that Lucas did speak
61
00:02:51,301 --> 00:02:53,216
to the police
on the record.
62
00:02:53,260 --> 00:02:55,305
He already admitted
he shot the officer.
63
00:02:55,349 --> 00:02:57,133
Expressed clear intent.
64
00:02:57,177 --> 00:02:59,657
Insisted he would
do it again.[door clanks open]
65
00:03:03,531 --> 00:03:05,968
[door closing]
66
00:03:12,279 --> 00:03:14,498
[handcuffs clicking]
67
00:03:19,938 --> 00:03:21,505
He's a friend.
68
00:03:25,248 --> 00:03:27,424
My name's Dr. Jason Bull.
69
00:03:27,468 --> 00:03:29,121
Dr. Statton wanted me
to meet you.
70
00:03:29,165 --> 00:03:30,384
See if I could help you.
71
00:03:30,427 --> 00:03:33,169
Doctor, huh?
72
00:03:33,213 --> 00:03:34,736
I'm not sick.
73
00:03:34,779 --> 00:03:37,217
No. I'm not the doctor
that helps sick people.
74
00:03:37,260 --> 00:03:40,263
I'm the doctor that helps people
when they get into trouble,
75
00:03:40,307 --> 00:03:41,743
when they have to go to court.
76
00:03:41,786 --> 00:03:44,049
Do you know what court is?
77
00:03:44,093 --> 00:03:47,618
Did Dr. Statton explain
about court to you?
78
00:03:51,405 --> 00:03:54,408
Let me start over.
79
00:03:54,451 --> 00:03:58,455
First of all,
I'm sorry about your father.
80
00:03:59,804 --> 00:04:01,589
They had better guns.
81
00:04:04,505 --> 00:04:07,638
How about your mom?
82
00:04:07,682 --> 00:04:09,379
Do you ever see her?
83
00:04:09,423 --> 00:04:11,468
Is there any way
I could talk to her?
84
00:04:11,512 --> 00:04:12,904
No.
85
00:04:12,948 --> 00:04:14,515
She hung herself.
86
00:04:14,558 --> 00:04:16,125
It was when I was a little kid.
87
00:04:17,518 --> 00:04:19,607
I'm sorry.
88
00:04:26,004 --> 00:04:27,354
Lucas...
89
00:04:28,398 --> 00:04:30,444
...do you understand
you could spend
90
00:04:30,487 --> 00:04:32,794
the rest of your life
in here, in jail?
91
00:04:32,837 --> 00:04:35,187
And I'm guessing you don't
want that. Am I right?
92
00:04:35,231 --> 00:04:36,450
I just want to go home.
93
00:04:36,493 --> 00:04:39,801
And that's what we want to try
and make happen.
94
00:04:40,802 --> 00:04:43,500
You all right
with that?
95
00:04:46,590 --> 00:04:48,375
I guess so.[lock buzzes, clicks]
96
00:04:48,418 --> 00:04:50,507
All right.
97
00:04:50,551 --> 00:04:53,858
Let me get back to my office,
get this started.
98
00:04:53,902 --> 00:04:56,296
I'm sure I'm gonna want
to talk to you some more.
99
00:04:56,339 --> 00:04:58,646
In the meantime, is there
anything I can bring you?
100
00:04:58,689 --> 00:05:01,910
Anything you miss?
Maybe some books?
101
00:05:07,611 --> 00:05:11,441
Well, if you think
of anything.
102
00:05:15,576 --> 00:05:17,447
[door closes]
103
00:05:19,101 --> 00:05:21,103
♪
104
00:05:28,371 --> 00:05:30,895
MARISSA:
This is Lucas Schwieger.
16 years old.
105
00:05:30,939 --> 00:05:32,332
Charged with murder in the death
106
00:05:32,375 --> 00:05:34,334
of a New York State
Children's Services caseworker.
107
00:05:34,377 --> 00:05:36,945
Yeah. We all got Bull's e-mail
about this kid.
108
00:05:36,988 --> 00:05:38,599
He can't read. Barely speaks.
109
00:05:38,642 --> 00:05:40,209
Lived with his dad off the grid
110
00:05:40,252 --> 00:05:42,385
his whole life.
Oh, and let's not forget
111
00:05:42,429 --> 00:05:44,082
he confessed to the crime.
112
00:05:44,126 --> 00:05:45,127
DANNY:
So I'll just say it.
113
00:05:45,170 --> 00:05:47,390
Can we even help this boy?
114
00:05:47,434 --> 00:05:49,871
We've got the surviving
police officer's testimony.
115
00:05:49,914 --> 00:05:51,351
Plus the confession.
116
00:05:51,394 --> 00:05:53,048
And this client
doesn't seem like he's
117
00:05:53,091 --> 00:05:54,702
in a position to really help
his own defense.
118
00:05:54,745 --> 00:05:56,007
TAYLOR:
And what kind of narrative?
119
00:05:56,051 --> 00:05:57,835
What kind of story
can you tell a jury
120
00:05:57,879 --> 00:06:00,055
that makes it okay to ambush
a caseworker and a trooper?
121
00:06:00,098 --> 00:06:01,404
MARISSA:
Bull wants to mount
122
00:06:01,448 --> 00:06:04,059
a defense based on
persuasive coercion.
123
00:06:04,102 --> 00:06:07,062
Our position will be that,
because of Lucas's sheltered
124
00:06:07,105 --> 00:06:09,847
and isolated upbringing, he
didn't know what he was doing,
125
00:06:09,891 --> 00:06:11,762
other than following
the instructions of,
126
00:06:11,806 --> 00:06:16,376
quite literally, the only person
in his life: his father.
127
00:06:16,419 --> 00:06:19,422
Norman Schwieger was delusional
128
00:06:19,466 --> 00:06:21,424
and paranoid and controlling.
129
00:06:21,468 --> 00:06:24,253
He was convinced
that humankind was on the verge
130
00:06:24,296 --> 00:06:26,690
of a cataclysmic end and thought
the only way to survive
131
00:06:26,734 --> 00:06:29,084
was to live a completely
self-sustaining life
132
00:06:29,127 --> 00:06:31,956
away from the scrutiny
of other human beings.
133
00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:35,133
And he forced his son
to live the same way...
134
00:06:35,177 --> 00:06:37,048
cloistered on their
small plot of land,
135
00:06:37,092 --> 00:06:39,094
which they didn't even
really own,
136
00:06:39,137 --> 00:06:41,139
which Norman rigged
with trip-wired alarms
137
00:06:41,183 --> 00:06:42,445
to warn them of any trespassers.
138
00:06:42,489 --> 00:06:44,447
Okay. I'll ask.
139
00:06:44,491 --> 00:06:46,928
What is persuasive coercion?
140
00:06:46,971 --> 00:06:49,060
Basically, Bull wants to argue
for all intents and purposes
141
00:06:49,104 --> 00:06:52,890
that Lucas's father exercised
a kind of mind control over him.
142
00:06:52,934 --> 00:06:54,631
Denied the boy a voice
143
00:06:54,675 --> 00:06:56,981
in any decision-making
of any kind.
144
00:06:57,025 --> 00:07:00,289
His job was simply to do
what he was told.
145
00:07:00,332 --> 00:07:02,726
And as a result,
he had no experience choosing
146
00:07:02,770 --> 00:07:04,554
between right and wrong,
no experience choosing anything.
147
00:07:04,598 --> 00:07:07,688
The problem is,
it's an affirmative defense.
148
00:07:07,731 --> 00:07:09,516
Hi. Zero years
of law school here.
149
00:07:09,559 --> 00:07:12,127
Though I did watch a lot
of Ally McBealback in the '90s.
10415
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