Original subtitles

Dennis Nilsen is charged with murdering

Kenneth Ockenden, Martyn Duffy, William Sutherland

Malcolm Barlow, John Howlett and Stephen Sinclair.

He's also accused of attempting to murder Douglas Stewart and Paul Knobbs.

As each of the eight charges were read out

the defendant was asked "How say you, Nilson, are you guilty or not guilty?"

Eight times in a firm voice he replied, "Not guilty."

But is Nilson guilty of murder or is he guilty only of manslaughter?

I don't understand.

It's quite simple. Having spoken to my solicitors...

my barrister, um...

learned people from the psychology profession

I'm not sure if I am guilty.

But on what grounds?

In all the months that we've been talking

you've not mentioned a plea of insanity once.

Not insanity, no. Diminished responsibility.

But am I mad? I don't know.

"Madness," as Quixote said

"Madness is seeing life as it is, and not as it should be."

You murdered those men, Des, and you knew what you were doing.

Did I? I don't deny taking their lives.

You know, I must wear the label of a killer

maybe I should be hanged for it, but I didn't plan them.

Never.

I took them home with much purer intentions

and then I'd wake up, they'd be sat there dead.

Now, no one feels the weight of that more than me, but...

the power of responsibility, at that time, was nil.

Yeah, I look in the mirror, I just see me. You know?

Just me... friendly, helpful, responsible me.

Just that.

If this was true, then why didn't you go to the police

after the first time it happened?

Don't you think I contemplated that, Brian? Eh?

Don't you think I wanted to hand myself in, or end it all? Y'know?

But then survival...

shame, and the future, makes you promise yourself

it'll never happen again, till it does.

But yeah, I mean...

had it not been for the dog, I may well have surrendered myself.

All I know is I don't know, and thus a jury needs to decide.

The press will be allowed to publish every word spoken in court.

Every single detail, exposed.

Is that not what you're doing?

Well...

I'm not exploiting these young men's tragedies to sell newspapers.

No, you're just exploiting me.

I hope you know me better than that.

I just want to get to the truth.

Don't you?

Peter, you know Mr Green, QC.

Allan, please.

I hear he's got the Krays' brief?

And Ivan Lawrence as QC. It's a formidable defence team to say the least.

Please, uh... take a seat.

I take it their angle's "diminished responsibility"?

Didn't wash with Sutcliffe. The jury won't buy it.

Sutcliffe didn't watch TV with the bodies.

Nilsen's not insane.

They don't have to prove that.

All they have to do is show that he was suffering some abnormality of mind

and therefore not fully responsible for what he was doing.

We, on the other hand, have to prove

that these crimes were carefully planned and premeditated.

Surely his confessions do that?

I'm afraid the confessions only take us so far.

What do you mean?

He gave you a lot of answers which prove what he did

but not what mind he was in when he did it.

He gave you exactly what he wanted to.

You hardly asked him any probing questions about what was on his mind.

Hold on. We didn't want him to suddenly stop talking.

We needed to identify 15 people.

I understand that, but the effect was that he gave you a lot of details

that aren't going to help us convict him.

I'm sorry, are you saying he planned this?

We'll never know, but if all we have are the confessions

then that's not gonna be enough.

We need more. Much more.

Should have pushed for motive.

Don't listen to Green.

Everybody always thinks they're a better copper than a copper.

If he'd have stopped talking, there's no way we'd have found the people we did.

Listen, they're just looking for someone to blame

if this all goes pear-shaped.

But we're gonna make damned sure that doesn't happen.

Yeah.

See you tomorrow.

Thanks for meeting me.

Please, take a seat.

I almost didn't come.

But you did...

cos you know this is wrong.

I take it he's written to you over the past few months?

Oh, he has.

How much?

Fifty-two exercise books' worth.

We're gonna need to take a look at them.

That could be useful to prove premeditation.

- Mr Jay... - All that matters is that we find

as much evidence as we can that Nilsen was in his right mind.

What if he's insane?

You think he's insane?

Well, it's not for me to decide.

He's not mad.

He knew what he was doing was wrong.

I don't deny that.

But at the same time, he was able to take the head of someone he'd known

the severed head, into a cooking pot on the stove

and let it simmer overnight

and then the next morning, he was able to pour himself a cup of coffee

and butter a slice of toast

whilst turning up the heat to make sure that the head was boiling properly.

Now, that is completely mad.

I mean...

He's really done a number on you, hasn't he?

You mistake me, Mr Jay.

He's not my friend.

I know who he is.

Do you?

Right, well, if there's nothing else...

Listen, if he can convince a jury that he was out of his mind somehow

then he only gets manslaughter.

He goes to a hospital and then in 15 years, he's deemed "cured"

and he's back out on the streets.

Is that justice for the victims and their families?

If that happens...

can you live with yourself?

Because I know I can't.

I'll drop the exercise books off at the station.

We have a murder weapon.

A tie attached to a knotted rope.

Seems pretty pre-emptive to me.

OK, good. What else?

We've got Duffey's knives.

Nilsen let 'em rust in his back garden so they could never be traced back to Martyn.

That shows knowledge of wrongdoing, therefore criminally sane.

That's a stretch.

What about these books from Masters?

Surely there's gotta be something in here?

"The tragedy of the monochrome man"? I mean most of it's rambling nonsense.

They help the defence, if anything.

What about Douglas Stewart?

The press'll have a field day with what happened to Stewart.

Police embarrassment is hardly relevant now.

We have to use him. What else?

What about the Soho Project?

What about it?

A woman called, thinks someone in her therapy group

could be a possible victim

but I thought we weren't looking for them anymore.

OK, Steve and I will follow that up.

Is that our lot?

Paul Knobbs, in his statement, says...

Sorry to have called

it's just, he's been having this recurring dream.

But actually, I think he's been attacked.

OK.

I hope I'm not wasting your time.

Is it alright if we have a word with him?

Go easy on him, OK?

Of course. What's his name?

Carl.

Alright.

I'm in a dark room.

I don't know where

and... there's music, but it's calm.

And then...

this man appears

and I can't see his face...

but he's very close to me.

But I'm not afraid, because...

I'm warm.

I'm wrapped up in some kind of sleeping bag.

And then, all of a sudden, I feel something around my neck...

digging into my throat, and choking me.

And I can hear him saying, "Stay still."

And then everything goes dark.

But then after a while, I feel...

something on my face, like...

sort of like a dog licking me, or something.

Can you remember what breed?

Uh...

No.

Carl.

Have you seen this man?

Yeah, on the news.

Yeah, his name is Dennis Nilsen.

He killed 15 young men and attempted to kill seven others.

All of these men were strangled.

Mostly with a tie, or a headphone cord.

But one, he tried to kill with a sleeping bag.

No...

...because the man in my dream keeps telling me

not to get caught up in the zip.

He also said he attempted to drown him...

before resuscitating him.

I've never told anyone about the water.

Do you remember the water?

Yeah. Um...

It was cold water and...

I was being held down.

Where? In a bath or a sink?

I don't understand. Are you...

Are you telling me that this actually happened?

Yes.

I think you are one of Nilsen's attempted victims

because everything that you are telling us aligns to what he told us.

Now, can you remember where you met him, or anything about where he lived?

W... No.

You said he warned you about the sleeping bag. What did he say exactly?

- Uh... I don't know. - When he warned you about the zip

that shows he was planning it way before he did it, so I need you to be clear.

Come on. Just try to remember.

I don't wanna do this anymore.

Look, you have to. I know... I know this is tough

- but we need all the details. - Detective.

- Just think... - Detective.

- He's told you he's had enough. - I'm aware of that but

- we are... I'm... I'm just trying... - Peter.

We can't use him. He won't survive cross-examination.

You saw him in there.

They'll destroy him.

I'll come back in a couple of days, see if I can get a statement from him

and we can read that out in court, alright? If we need to.

Peter. We have enough.

He led us to the bodies, for fuck's sake.

...for the first day of this, the trial of Dennis Nilsen

the unassuming civil servant

who's charged with crimes that have shocked and sickened the nation.

Nilsen is charged with six murders and two attempted murders.

Details of a recently identified seventh victim, Graham Allen

a heroin addict and petty criminal, will not be featured on the indictment.

Mr Masters!

What's it like being friends with a serial killer?

What's it like rubbing shoulders with a murderer, Masters?

What's it like being friends with a serial killer?

Steve.

- You alright? - Good.

- Sleep OK? - No. I never do.

Oh, here he is, Brian Masters! Biographer to the murderer of the century.

You see the press outside?

Jesus, they'll have headlines for weeks.

Revelling in the case, like carrion.

One of the papers today had the headline, "House of Horrors: The Trial".

The only "House of Horrors" I've ever seen's Number Ten Downing Street.

They mention you an' all.

- Uh, yes, I saw. - Yeah.

How do you feel, being talked about in a national newspaper?

You wanted to see me?

Aye. They've brought me my suit, but no tie.

I was wondering if I could borrow yours?

Right.

I know it's an ask, but you know, an open-necked shirt?

Dunno if it's the kind of impression I wanna give out

on the first day of the trial.

Right. I'll leave it with the guard.

My saviour.

I started out with 15 ties, but now police have them all in evidence.

You, the members of the jury, will be asked to ascertain

this man's state of mind at the time of the killings

and to decide, as a result

if he is guilty of the murder of six innocent young men

or merely of their manslaughter.

That Mr Nilsen killed these men is not contested by the defence.

They will argue, however, that he was "out of his mind"

when he committed his crimes

and that he cannot be held truly accountable.

But I intend to prove that Mr Nilsen not only knew what he was doing

but that these crimes were premeditated and carefully planned.

He lured 15 innocent young men back to his home

before cruelly murdering them.

Mr Nilsen is no madman.

He is intelligent and rational

possessing the skills to conceal his crimes

and manipulate those around him.

He is, in short, an experienced and calculating killer.

I have spent a total of 14 hours with Dennis Nilsen

on 16 separate occasions since his arrest.

You are a forensic psychiatrist, Dr Hardy?

- Correct. - Could you share with the court

the clinical evaluation you made of the defendant during these many meetings?

Did you find, for example, any evidence of mental abnormality?

Quite the reverse.

I formed the impression very quickly that he was a highly intelligent man.

In my view, Nilsen possesses an extremely rational mind.

He's capable of feeling very deepy and concealing these feelings

in order to preserve appearances.

Thank you. No further questions, My Lord.

Dennis Nilsen killed perhaps 15 young men

for no apparent reason.

He kept their bodies, bathed and dressed them

watched television programmes with them, conversed with them

about those programmes.

You say you find no evidence of mental disturbance.

Of course strangling people is not normal behaviour.

While Nilsen was on remand

he made a series of protests and complaints

about his treatment in Her Majesty's Prison, Herne Hill.

Would you not agree that this shows markedly paranoid tendencies?

Perhaps. In some cases.

And in this case, in fact, his behaviour became so extreme, so erratic

that he was recently put down as a suicide risk.

Could you tell us, Dr Hardy, who the psychiatrist was

who recommended this step?

I did.

So, would you not agree that someone at risk of suicide

is by definition suffering a mental disorder?

I suppose, in strict terms...

- that is true. - Thank you.

No further questions, My Lord.

Miss Mead?

They're using what happened to Graham

making it all public.

But he doesn't get justice?

I know.

Look, there are certain details about his case

- that can help us... - You didn't give a shit about him

when you thought he was just a junkie who OD'd in a squat or a bedsit somewhere.

But now, you're gonna bring up every little detail.

I'm sorry.

No. No, you're not.

Do you have any fucking idea what you've put me through?

And he won't even get justice?

All you lot care about...

is you're the people that caught Dennis Nilsen.

Pete. We're back in.

So, Mr Stewart, after meeting him in the Golden Lion

Mr Nilsen suggested that you both go back to his residence to continue drinking?

That's right. 195 Melrose Avenue.

- I remember it very clearly. - And what happened next?

We had a couple more pints.

He offered me vodka but I said it's not my drink.

Then he asked me to go to bed with him.

I said that wasn't my thing either.

So I fell asleep on the sofa.

I woke up, must have been a few hours later

and my ankles were tied together, with a tie.

Nilsen was kneeling on my chest, trying to strangle me.

But I fought him off. I wasn't going down without a fight.

How did he respond to that?

He started shouting, "Take my money, take my money!"

Really loud, like.

Here.

But you weren't stealing from him?

Seemed like he was trying to make the neighbours think

he was being attacked himself.

He was trying to create an alibi.

Hardly the act of a man "out of his mind".

Thank you, Mr Stewart. No further questions, My Lord.

In your police statement, Mr Stewart

you said you stayed for another drink with Nilsen.

Another drink, after he allegedly tried to kill you?

I thought that was the best way to calm him down.

I see. You mentioned earlier that you remembered seeing the address

as 195 Melrose Avenue.

How did you remember the address so clearly?

I saw the number, on the door.

You also told us that when you met him in the pub

the defendant introduced himself to you as "Dennis".

- Yeah. - And that when you got to his house

to continue your drinking session together, he offered you vodka.

That's right.

Unfortunately, none of these things are true, are they?

The defendant's first name may be Dennis

but he always calls himself "Des".

He always drinks rum, not vodka

and there is no number plate on the house at Melrose Avenue.

There never has been.

I dunno, I thought there was.

Hm, but you seemed so sure of the details before

and why might that be?

Why might someone go to the trouble of furnishing their testimony

with a great deal of specific detail

that seems to be pulled from thin air?

I put it to you, Mr Stewart, that your testimony to this court

is nothing more than a pack of lies

dreamt up to satisfy a tabloid newspaper.

Well, Mr Stewart?

Have you sold your story?

Uh...

Y-yes.

No further questions, My Lord.

How dare he! Standing up there in that ridiculous suit

spouting those lies!

So you're saying that Douglas Stewart is lying?

That you didn't try and kill him?

Yes, I did. But not as he described it.

This is about absolute truth, Brian.

It has to be, otherwise we don't get any answers.

You cannot possibly believe

that what you put him through out there was justified.

What you getting so agitated about?

I'm giving you a wonderful final act for your book.

Like, you said about the book, Brian

it's not up to us to make subjective decisions.

We have to remain objective in all of this.

Thus it is up to the jury to decide

whether I'm just bad

or outrageously bad.

See you back in Chambers, thank you.

Did you know he'd sold his story to the press?

Course I didn't.

Lucky the judge didn't strike his testimony from the record.

It can't have harmed us that much, right?

Stewart's credibility's gone, his testimony's now useless.

- We're in a lot of trouble. - Surely we still have enough.

We have the tie with the knotted rope, and Duffey's knives.

All those show premeditation to murder.

Physical evidence is all very good and well, but it's also circumstantial.

We had an eye witness, a survivor

and without that, we're significantly weaker.

I'm sorry.

Hello, Carl.

Can I come in?

How have you been?

Things keep coming back to me.

What kind of things?

He said he liked my shoes.

Thank you.

The doctor said it was all nightmares, caused...

I'd had a bit of a hard time with an ex of mine.

They even put me on tablets to block everything out.

Listen, Carl, um...

The trial isn't going how we'd hoped.

We think your testimony could be crucial.

But I've already given my statement.

- The man said that would be enough. - I know.

But we need you to give it in court.

What, with him there?

- You wouldn't have to be close to him. - No, I can't.

- Carl... - He killed me

Mr Jay, and then he brought me back to life.

I can't imagine what you've been through, Carl.

I really can't.

But please believe me, if he gets a lesser sentence, you'll find no peace.

I'm sorry. I can't...

be in the same room as him.

I can't go back there.

Then they'll subpoena you anyway.

You'll be forced to testify.

So I don't have a choice?

I swear by Almighty God that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth

the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

Could you recount, Mr Stottor, the events of that night

in April 1982, when you met the defendant?

Where, for example, did you meet Mr Nilsen?

In the Black Cap, in Camden.

I was depressed.

I'd just broken up with someone.

Speak up, please, Mr Stottor.

He was nice to me.

In what sense was he nice?

He bought me drinks.

He asked me about my family.

He asked if you had family?

Yes, and then he invited me back to his flat.

For a drink.

We just drank a lot and then he said I could go to sleep on his bed

and then he warned me not to get caught in the zip of the sleeping bag.

Why do you think that was?

Was it perhaps because he was planning an alibi

- in case you managed to escape? - Objection, My Lord.

- Leading. - Sustained.

Tell us what happened next.

I woke up and I couldn't breathe.

He was behind me and...

I could feel something digging into my neck.

The pressure got worse...

and the pain was unbearable.

I couldn't see

or speak, or swallow

and I could hear him saying "keep still".

The next thing I knew, I was in water.

In a bath, being pushed down

again and again

and I didn't know where I was or what was happening

and I swallowed water.

I couldn't resist anymore and I realised...

that I was dying.

Thank you, Mr Stottor. No further questions, My Lord.

You have an alter-ego, Mr Stottor, do you not?

"Khara Le Fox".

A "drag act". You are a female impersonator.

I used to be, yes.

You've already been asked, Mr Stottor

if you could speak up

for the benefit of the court?

Yes.

But...

since the attack, I'm...

not able to sing anymore.

And you had several relationships with men, including one which became abusive.

Your night with Nilsen

was therefore not your first violent homosexual encounter...

My Lord, I must object to this line of questioning.

A history of deviant encounters raises the possibility

of a sex game gone wrong, My Lord.

Sustained. Move on, Mr Lawrence.

Now, could you tell us, Mr Stottor

where you woke up after you had been in the bath?

On the bed.

On the bed, and was the room warm or cold?

- Warm. - Nilsen had heated the room, had he not?

He had put on all the bars on the electric fire.

Yes, I suppose so.

And how long after you woke up did you leave the flat?

Well, I kept...

falling asleep, so maybe one or two days.

One or two days?

Did Nilsen keep you under duress?

No, but I was...

very confused...

and also in a lot of pain.

Did he, in fact, walk you to the tube station

when you wanted to go?

Yes.

This supposedly cold and calculating killer

with every opportunity to "finish the job"

instead let you sleep in a warm bed for days

before seeing you home safely?

In fact, aside from the incident itself

did he not show you more care and kindness that evening

than anyone else in your life had done for a very long time?

Yes.

That's what I can't understand.

Is he my murderer or my saviour?

How peculiar...

that is.

No further questions, My Lord.

You may step down, Mr Stottor.

Mr Stottor! Mr Stottor!

You did really well in there. Listen, Carl...

I want to go home now.

He should have killed you, you queer!

What are you afraid of?

Mr Jay?

Uh, I feel I owe you an apology.

You were right. Well...

He's not insane.

He knew exactly what he was doing

as much then, as...

as he does now.

Detective, are you confident?

Do you think you'll get justice for the victims, Detective?

And in the following days, you interviewed him at length.

Is that correct?

Yes, we interviewed him for a total of 31 hours.

And in those 31 hours, did Mr Nilsen ever mention visions or voices in his head

telling him to commit his crimes?

- No. - Did he ever show any signs at all

of being "out of his mind" so to speak or mentally unwell in any way?

No, quite the opposite, in fact.

He seemed...

calm, collected, in control.

- Hardly a madman? - No.

Detective Chief Inspector Jay, could you please tell the court

for how long have you been a police officer?

Almost 23 years.

And based on those years of experience

what is your professional opinion of Dennis Nilsen?

I've seen criminals in all shapes and sizes.

When they're on remand, they ask to be visited by all sorts of people.

Priests, rabbis, imams.

I even had a fella who asked for a shaman.

Because most of them

are just wanting forgiveness.

Mr Nilsen's only visitor in the eight months whilst he was on remand

was a biographer.

In my opinion...

he's a remorseless coward who killed innocent and vulnerable men as they slept.

Thank you, Detective Chief lnspector. No further questions, My Lord.

Detective Chief Inspector, you say you interviewed Nilsen

for 31 hours, yes?

That's right.

In all that time of him talking almost incessantly

did he ever mention planning the murders at all?

No.

No further questions, My Lord.

You may step down, Officer.

Thank you.

We have an old Latin phrase in the law, "res ipsa loquitur".

"The act speaks for itself."

What sort of man kills people

lives with their bodies rotting under the floorboards

and flushes pieces of them down the lavatory?

Do these seem to you the actions of a man in his right mind?

If you think, as we invite you to think, and as the evidence surely shows

that these crimes were not planned or premeditated

but were due to Nilsen's seriously abnormal personality and way of thinking

then you will find him not guilty of murder

but guilty of manslaughter by way of diminished responsibility.

That is the verdict which we invite you to return.

What's taking them so long?

Same again? Wee ones?

Ta, Steve.

Madam Foreman of the jury.

Have you reached verdicts on which you are all agreed?

No, we have not.

Might you reach a verdict if the court sits until early evening?

I don't believe so, Your Honour.

Very well. You will retire overnight.

The court will reconvene in the morning where I will accept a majority verdict.

More time's now been spent

on what's possibly wrong with Dennis Nilsen than what he's actually done.

A man who's described himself as "The Murderer of the Century".

A defence psychiatrist said Nilsen acted as if he were the judge

judging this case of an infamous crime.

He shows off, he really believes he is the most important person of the century.

The defence expert found another way of describing Nilsen's mind.

His personality was like his house.

It looked perfectly alright from the outside

but perhaps there was something of a funny smell about it

and when you looked under the floorboards, you would find horrors.

The jury is returning.

Would the foreman of the jury please stand?

Madam Foreman, do you have a majority on your verdicts?

We do.

On the charge of the murder of Stephen Sinclair

how do you find the defendant?

Guilty.

On the charge of the murder of Kenneth Ockenden

how do you find the defendant?

Guilty.

On the charge of the murder of John Howlett

how do you find the defendant?

Guilty.

On the charge of the murder of Martyn Duffey

- how do you find the defendant? - Guilty.

On the charge of the murder of Billy Sutherland

how do you find the defendant?

Guilty.

On the charge of the murder of Malcolm Barlow

how do you find the defendant?

Guilty.

On the charge of the attempted murder of Douglas Stewart

how do you find the defendant?

Guilty.

On the charge of the attempted murder of Paul Nobbs

how do you find the defendant?

Guilty.

Dennis Andrew Nilsen...

your victims were innocent young men

guilty only of accepting your hospitality

whereupon you ended their lives cruelly and callously

for reasons that will remain known only to you.

The sentence for murder is fixed in law.

It is imprisonment for life, and that is the sentence which I pass on you

on each count of this indictment.

Take him down.

...some sort of coat for the journey back.

Yes.

Mr Jay. Well done.

Went down to the wire at the end, didn't it?

Must be pleased it's over.

If at any time in the future, you remember any more names...

please write to me.

I promise you'll be the first to know.

I think the jury got it right in the end, you know? I don't think I'm mad.

If you hadn't caught me that day...

be 150, not 15.

I could never have stopped.

OK.

Good luck.

What will you do with it all?

Oh, I don't know.

Chuck most of it probably.

Mr Jay, um...

do you mind if I ask you a question?

Go on.

When you first met him, did you believe him straight away?

Yes, I did.

What went through your mind at that moment?

Well, I thought, um...

Honestly?

The first thing I thought was, "I hope that I'm up to this."

Don't put that in your book.

You have my word.

- And about my book... - No, look, it's fine.

We both had our way of looking at this.

Well... what will they do with this place?

I don't know, uh...

Sell it or rent it out, I'd imagine.

Who'd want to live here? I mean...

There's the smell, for one thing.

D'you know the worst thing?

I don't smell it anymore.

I'll see you outside.

So, how have you been?

Ah, you know.

Adjusting to being a permanent resident, and all.

Apart from that, not too bad.

I read your book. My book.

What did you think?

To be honest, Brian, I found it absolutely terrifying.

But it's good. Much better than I expected.

Of course, I have some thoughts.

Please don't be discouraged by my observations.

I've lost none of my respect or admiration for you or your work.

Oh, well, thank you, um...

I'm sure it'll be very helpful.

My biggest concern is you didn't name any of the victims.

No, I wanted to respect their privacy.

I think it's disrespectful not to name them.

I robbed them of their lives, please don't rob them of their identities.

And the title...

"Killing For Company", it's a little...

You know?

Should just be "Nilsen".

No.

Why not?

- The book is about me after all. - I'm not going to call it "Nilsen".

This isn't your book. It's not about you.

It's about how someone like you came to be.

Now, I told you when we first met that I wasn't going to use grisly

or emotive adjectives, and I have stuck to my word.

But make no mistake, this isn't a celebration.

It's a warning.

You know, there were only 12 victims, not 15?

When I sat in the back of the police car the night of my arrest

they asked me how many there were, and I wasn't really sure

so I just gave them a figure, "15 or 16".

Then three, three of those victims were invented

just to complement the continuity of evidence for the police, keep them happy.

Everybody's had a chance to write their version of my story.

When's it my turn?

I'll send you a copy when it's published.

Come and see me again.