Original subtitles

[distant birds singing]

[man] Oftentimes, I pray for Mr. Moore.

Pray for his family as well.

I recognize that I did something hideous.

I was now sinking in a sea of sin.

For me, life was over with.

I just wanted to end life.

And the question always came to mind:

"What... what... why am I here?

Why am I here? Why do I even exist?

Why do I even exist?"

My name is Toby Lynn Williams.

I was charged with capital murder and I was sentenced to death.

[man 1] This is a true story.

I'll start it off like that.

[man 2] I just wanted to rebel, I wanted to cause chaos.

I looked over at him. We'll see who kills who, huh?

[woman] I made the choice.

I took his life.

[man 3] It's something that I never intended to do,

I wish I didn't do.

[man 4] I knew I was gonna get out of that car and murder those two men.

[man 5] As he kneeled in front of me,

all I remember is pulling the trigger.

[man 6] I'd killed them both.

I'd stabbed them to death.

[man] When we're young, we're not real bright.

[birds cry]

And we do some things that aren't real bright.

Should we be judged for them the rest of our lives?

Or should we be given the opportunity to show that,

"Hey, we learned from that, we grew from that"?

Thirty-six years.

That's just an unconscionable amount of time.

When it comes to punishment, what's enough?

[birds singing]

[distant voices]

[Toby] I'd spent most of my time in Shreveport, Louisiana.

I feel like things would have been different

had I been raised with a loving mother and father.

When I was seven years old,

I discovered that the lady that I was calling Mom was my grandmother.

When I was about six weeks old,

my mother, she decided to give me to a family who were going to adopt me.

So my grandmother's response was,

"If you don't want him, I'll take him, I'll keep him, I'll raise him."

My dad was...

He was non-existent.

He went to prison for... for a murder case

and we never really got close.

When my father came out of jail, he come to Louisiana

and... and I was... I was delighted.

I was extremely delighted to see him.

When I went to live with him, um...

eventually, I started getting into fights with my stepbrothers

and, uh... they would jump on me all the time.

It was always, uh... some violence between us.

When I was nine years old, it was the first time

that I ever ran away from home.

I lived in the street, slept in the street.

My criminality was basically about surviving.

I had to steal and rob,

going into some store and lifting things out of the store, because I was hungry.

I started drinking and doing drugs, at least smoking marijuana,

when I was about 10, 11.

That's when I...

And at 15 is when I had the armed robbery, attempted murder case.

I went and robbed a place

because I was, you know, I was trying to come up on some money

to, uh... purchase me more alcohol and... and more marijuana.

And I received a juvenile life sentence

and I went into Louisiana Training Institute For Boys.

When I came out of the boys' home,

I felt like life had passed me by.

So in order for me to catch up in life,

I was going to have to find me some type of robbery, some type of heist,

some type of crime that I commit where I could gain financially.

At the expense of somebody else's detriment.

And, you know, that was my attitude at the particular time.

Johnny Moore was a man that I had the opportunity to work for.

He and his dad were responsible for opening the recreational vehicle business

and they needed some help

and they allowed me to work for them for about a week.

One night, I heard two young men talking

about how they had gotten fired by Mr. Moore's dad,

and I seen that as an opportunity

to commit the robbery of Mr. Moore.

I believed that law enforcement would hold them responsible

because they had a motive to commit the crime

based on being fired by Mr. Moore.

But the problem was that Mr. Moore knew me

and the solution to that was that Mr. Moore would have to be eliminated.

I felt like I had to murder him to prevent him

from identifying me in the courtroom.

I knew that Mr. Moore had a baby.

So I desired to have someone there to basically watch

to make sure nothing happens to that child.

As I was going to the house,

I seen Wilma and Victoria walking in my direction.

Wilma and Victoria were two young ladies living in the neighborhood.

I said we should be able to acquire at least $500,000

out of this, uh... robbery,

and they basically agreed to it.

And so we go over to Mr. Moore's house.

I knocked on the door.

He comes out and I pulled the .357 on him

and I asked him if he would go back in the house

and he went back in.

When we went into his room, his wife and his son were laying there on the bed.

Eventually, we started moving property from his house onto his truck.

The girls just watched the Moores and the baby.

And then I just basically held him at gunpoint

and told him that we were going somewhere, basically.

We all piled in the car and came over here into Texas

to throw law enforcement off, to convince them

that someone in Texas had committed the crime

instead of someone out of Louisiana.

When we got into Texas, that's when I had Mr. Moore and Mrs. Moore

to get out of the car.

I didn't care anything about my own life

and I was trying to... to get the courage

out of not caring anything about my own life

to be able to do something like this

that I had never done before.

And once I had built up the courage...

I just dropped the gun and shot.

Mrs. Moore's back was to me

and it went through her and... and struck him.

Immediately after I had shot them,

um, I wanted to shoot Mr. Moore to make sure that he was dead,

but Victoria, she approached me

and she expressed that he would die, let's just leave him.

So we piled in the car with the baby.

And I just left the bodies there.

[distant birds singing]

[cow moos]

[man] November and December is always cold in this area.

[mooing continues]

I've been here about 40-something years.

This is family land,

so I wound up building a little house here.

Back in the early '80s, I was in the bed sleeping and...

I don't know exactly what time of morning it was,

but it was way after midnight, I do know that.

[tinkling]

We heard a knock at the door

and somebody pleading for help.

I was thinking

they gonna come rob me, that was my first thought.

It was a kinda scary feeling,

'cause nothing like that never happens in this area.

We peeped out the window first

and he was standing right at the door, here at the front door.

He said, "My wife been shot. They shot me and they shot my wife."

He was holding both hands, like, right here.

That's one thing I won't never forget.

You could see the hole.

You didn't see any blood, but I assume he was bleeding on the inside.

He said, "I know who did it. I know who did it.

They took my car and they got my baby."

Mm-hm.

I said, "Where's your wife?"

He said, "She's up the road."

We're about a quarter of a mile from my house.

This is where all of it happened, right here on the side of the road.

The man jumped in the back of the truck and he rode on up here.

And that's when we saw the lady laying on the ground.

This is where she was laying.

Kinda onto the side here.

Her feet's over here, her head kinda laying this way,

and she was just laying there, not moving.

I didn't see any blood that much.

The man got out the truck.

And he was looking at his wife.

I don't know, he just assumed she was gonna be okay also, I guess.

And by that time, the police had came.

They loaded him into the ambulance, and, you know, had taken him off.

I found out later that she was dead.

[birds chirping]

[birds singing]

Here's a picture of Debbie. Uh...

I don't think she's happy with me taking that picture.

But she got over it.

Here's a picture of her and Cuddles.

Cuddles was a Teacup Chihuahua.

Little bitty thing.

Um, Cuddles and Debbie sleeping.

That seems to be a recurring theme.

My name is Johnny Moore.

Debbie was my first love.

She was my wife,

my friend,

my confidante.

We were...

19 days short of being married three years,

the night she died.

I met Deborah at, uh... church.

A friend of mine introduced me and Debbie to each other

and... we went out, I guess, a week or two later.

And just... the romance grew from there.

We dated about a year, 16 months, something like that,

before we got married.

We enjoyed doing things together and...

just got along good.

You know?

Our son was born, it was 1984.

These bring back the good memories.

Instead of the bad memories, these bring back the good memories.

You know?

We were, of course, still a young couple,

and it's...

it's no bed of roses,

but we were making it.

She adored our son

and, uh, he would never hit the floor

without having a new set of clothes on.

He was her pride and joy.

And...

You know, that was her life, taking care of him.

She was a good mother.

She was a good friend. She was a good person.

It don't sound like much, does it? But it is.

Debbie died on December 20th of 1984.

It took 12 years of my life to...

to get where I can handle it.

Am I over it now?

Not 100%. No, I never will be.

Yes, it still brings up bad stuff,

but I can talk about it now.

You know?

[distant rumble of traffic]

[man] Yeah, there is a scripture, says, "What is your life? It is a vapor.

It appears for a while and then it vanishes."

My name is John S. Walker

and I've been a practicing attorney for about 50 years.

1984, I was a prosecutor in Panola County.

I prosecuted all types of cases.

Murders, rapes, robberies.

You name it, I did it all.

One of the cases was State vs. Toby Williams.

It was pretty well-known generally

about the horrific nature of the facts of the case.

Toby Williams basically hijacked or kidnapped the victims.

And took them out in the country,

down this lonely... road.

And proceeded to have them undress.

In the middle of the road, in the wintertime.

They were crying and hugging themselves...

in the frigid air...

in the middle of a road.

And then he decided he wanted to see two white people have sex.

I don't use such language, but...

he basically said, "I want to see white folks fuck."

I expected the verdict to be what it was, I really did.

And, uh...

I think he expected it, too.

I remember Mr. Williams making an under-breath comment.

"Well, I just want them to get it over with fast."

I think Mr. Williams' outrageous conduct

is something that society cannot tolerate.

[birds singing]

[Johnny] Got a knock on the door

and got met with a .357 pistol in my face.

You know, it drug out for hours.

Toby said we were gonna go for a drive.

Debbie was holding George.

And, uh... I was holding her.

We didn't have a chance to talk, we just exchanged looks.

I guess that's the best way to say it.

And, you know, she was scared.

And holding our son, you know, holding George close.

I knew in my heart that was not a good deal.

You know?

And Debbie knew that also.

There's no doubt in my mind about that.

This was not going to end good.

One of the girls demanded that we give George to them.

Toby was...

calm...

and collected, he knew what he was doing.

We did get undressed, but that's all they...

You know... that was it.

I was down to my briefs.

She was down to her bra and panties.

I... I never heard the gunshot.

I... To this day, I've never heard the gunshot.

Next thing I know, I'm on the ground.

I hear Debbie's breath going out of her.

I looked over and I...

I knew she was gone.

[birds chirping]

[distant rumble of traffic]

After I got to the hospital, the doctor examined me

and they decided I needed emergency surgery.

I was more worried about my son.

I... I didn't know where he was at.

I can't remember if I was in the ER or...

leaving the ER, headed to the operating room.

And somebody told me they had got a phone call

for a lady finding a baby on the front porch of her house.

They had already found my son

and... and I got to see him before...

[voice trembling] Excuse me.

[takes deep breath]

I got to see him before I went to surgery.

[birds chirping]

Yes, I felt guilty that I lived,

and she didn't.

But I also felt...

[sniffs]

...you know, that I was glad that she died quickly.

She didn't have to suffer.

[sighs]

I was glad for that, she didn't have to suffer.

There's no way Toby Williams could ever pay...

for what happened that night.

You cannot replace somebody's life.

[interviewer] How do you feel towards Toby Williams today?

I don't care to talk about Toby Williams.

[interviewer] Is that just about not letting him impact you ever again?

I don't care to talk about Toby Williams.

[man] You can't just automatically judge people on their past.

These people who are killers are not the men that they were at that moment.

There is a possibility of redemption.

My name is Thomas Wattley.

And I've known Toby Williams for ten years.

I lead the prison ministry at the George Beto Unit

in Tennessee Colony, Texas.

When he went into prison, he was a thug.

He'd fight. He, you know, did all the drugs.

Um...

He stole, he lied, he killed.

He was just a bad actor.

[distant birds chirping]

[Thomas] When I met Toby,

he was trying to define himself,

understand who he was in prison.

Initially in class,

he just kinda soaked in

what we were talking about.

And then he started just sharing...

about the traumas that he experienced in his early life.

[click]

[Toby] My mother, I didn't know her.

I basically traveled life's journey feeling pretty much that way.

If your own mom don't love you, nobody in life will ever love you.

[click]

[Thomas] Toby is suffering inside.

You hear it in his voice.

We all wanna know our mother.

We wanna know our father.

We wanna know who we are.

You know, I've always been loved,

but I would think without love, life has to be hard.

You don't have any sense of worth.

Sense of self.

Being loved means you, you...

your value as an individual develops.

[Toby] When I was ten years old,

I had befriended a young guy

in the community.

And we would go around, we would ride bikes,

and on occasion, we would steal bikes.

And there was someone in his family,

I don't know if it was his brother or his uncle, that I had encountered.

And I desired to look to him as a father figure or a big brother.

And so,

we go out to this Dallas drainage ditch to do the crawdad fishing.

The next thing I know, he was looking down on me

in his lust,

and at that particular time, he...

he raped me.

And I wanted to scream for help,

I wanted someone to come to my rescue.

But I decided that I didn't want anyone later on to come to my rescue,

because,

as I thought about it,

someone would perhaps come to my rescue and ridicule me.

So I just laid there,

hoping that the matter would soon be over with.

So, later on, he'd stood up,

and he pulled his pants up.

And he said, "And don't you tell nobody."

And I took that as my cue that I could get up,

so I got up and I pulled my pants up

and I made my way out of that drainage ditch.

I never told anyone.

I had made my way from that particular moment

to the back of the house where my grandmother and me lived,

and I discarded those semen-stained underwear,

and I locked the good boy up in the dungeon of my soul.

"I never...

I never told anyone."

How can you be hurt...

and not tell somebody about it?

How?

He's been crying for help

all his life.

It's hard to make that intellectual leap,

that that's what caused him to commit murder.

But we know there's a series of events in his life

that got harder and harder and harder and tougher and tougher and tougher,

that led him to that path.

Toby is worthy of sympathy.

He did a horrific crime.

We cannot forget that.

And when we do what's wrong,

yes, we are punished.

But at the same time,

we have to be forgiving.

And pray that Toby, over time, will learn from this

and... and change his ways.

That's what we're talking about.

[birds singing]

[man] I fish as often as I can.

I fish here in the backyard.

I fish on my boat.

I'll go down to the local fishing piers.

Being incarcerated, you're...

you're in a cage

and you don't get to do these simple little pleasures of life.

And 20 years not being able to do it is, uh...

that's a lot of missing.

Toby Williams was my first actual celly that I had

when I was incarcerated, the first about eight months.

We were locked in our cell 24 hours a day, seven days a week

and you don't really have a lot to do,

except get to know those that you're in there with,

which is one person.

And Toby and I have just been friends ever since.

People would assume that Toby is a rabid monster.

That if he were ever to be around anybody,

he would be trying to plot and scheme how to harm them,

take advantage of them, take their property.

Uh, any... any one of a number of bad things.

And Toby is none of those things.

I... I don't know that...

a day, week, month or year ever goes by

where it doesn't weigh on him,

the damage that he did.

On death row, in that cell by yourself, day in and day out,

you come to the realization something went wrong.

The path that Toby chose was... was to try to correct himself,

and he has.

He started educating himself.

He started listening to other people's opinions about stuff.

He has an exemplary record.

He participates in everything.

If you need something, he's there.

He's not trying to take, he's trying to give.

Because of what he took.

Toby's an old man now.

And I think that the amount of time that he's spent in there

has paid for what he's done.

I really do.

He hasn't done anything

that would prevent him from getting parole,

so why doesn't he get parole?

If you keep him in prison the whole time, that's a death sentence.

It's a living death sentence, but it's a death sentence nonetheless.

So, again, what is enough?

[birds singing]

[Johnny] My outlook on life changed a lot.

I'm happy what I do.

Been married again for almost 13 years.

Here we go, when I jumped in the Mediterranean.

-Oh, that was fun. -You all said it was cold.

It was, but we got in anyhow.

[Johnny] My wife is Belinda.

She's been through a lot that I've been through.

We try to enjoy things,

do things, travel when we can.

Because tomorrow is not promised.

You know, so...

You never stop missing.

It gets better with time.

Belinda understands that Debbie's part of my life

and it goes from there.

I do think that a person who's on... who gets the death penalty,

deserves to have an appeal.

I think that's... that's fair.

But if they do the crime,

you know, they need to pay the price.

Uh...

Because the people who...

do die, like Debbie,

they don't have a... get to have an appeal,

they don't get to have a... a second chance or...

You know, that's all taken away from them in just the blink of an eye.

I was very blessed

that I had my sister and my mother

to help me with... with George.

But he missed having a mother.

She missed...

watching him walk.

Go to school, graduate, get married.

I still think about it today

that she doesn't get to see

how his life has turned out.

Um... He missed all that.

She missed all that. We missed all that.

[keys rattle in lock]

[door opens]

[clattering]

[door closes]

[Toby] I often prayed for death.

I often prayed to God that he would just take my life.

That's changed now.

Glory to God, all of that's changed now.

I have accepted Christ

and I see things from a different perspective

because now I have an appreciation for life.

[Johnny] Debbie was...

my wife,

my friend,

my confidante.

There's no way Toby Williams could ever pay...

for what happened that night.

You cannot replace somebody's life.

First of all, I would ask Mr. Johnny and all his family to forgive me

for having interfered with their lives,

because I had no right to do such.

I realize and recognize

that... that I did something hideous

and if I could take that back, I... I would.

Oftentimes, I pray for Mr. Moore.

Pray for his family as well.

I've considered that it must have been tough for him to rebuild his life.

How am I trying to make amends?

I've written a book, um,

entitled A Date With Death: Redemption.

It tells of my transformation.

I would like to take the proceeds from that book

to start a nonprofit organization in the name of Debbie Gail Moore

for the purpose of reaching out to people who have endured, uh...

such as the crime that I committed against her.

[John S. Walker] Toby Williams proceeded to have them undress...

in the middle of the road, in the wintertime.

He basically said, "I want to see white folks fuck."

-[interviewer] Is that true? -No, sir.

But you wanted them naked?

Yes, sir.

Why did you not mention that to us?

Um... it slipped my mind.

But I don't mind talking about it at all.

Um, the purpose was to, uh... get them aligned.

To get them aligned, that was the purpose. To get them aligned, uh... for one shot.

I wanted to be able to get away as fast as possible

without drawing any attention to what was going on.

It would be heartbreaking

to have to continue in this prison.

I look forward to one day walking out of here.

[interviewer] How would you think Johnny Moore might feel

if you were released?

[laughs]

Wow, that's something I've never thought about.

That's something I've never thought about.

Uh...

I don't even know how to answer that.

Um...

I can say I believe that he would feel angry by it

if I am released from this prison.