Original subtitles

So, Joel

thank you so much for

taking the time today

to talk with me

about your work

here in the Philippines,

CenterLaw Philipppines,

human rights advocacy

and also your,

Pro bono work for

people

that really suffer

from human

rights violations

in the Philippines,

and all across Asia.

Maybe we could

start with arts.

And you have a

lot of art here

in your office,

and I really this

this picture. Really.

Struck me

in the beginning.

And maybe you can

share with me

a couple of words

what this picture

actually symbolizes and

and what it could,

how it could relate

to our topic today.

Yeah, this

this painting

is actually,

one of my favorites

because,

it was done

by one of my favorite

artists and taken, it

the, the,

the picture

is actually

representative

of the kind of clients

that we have.

at CenterLaw.

This is a

picture of a woman,

who is holding on to

a picture of either

her husband or son.

And,

you can see that

the woman has

no, mouth.

So it's

a voiceless woman.

And, the husband

or the son is,

the connotations that,

he is a victim of.

extrajudicial killings

that’s why

She has no mouth,

She has no voice,

She has no access

to justice.

And there's also

an interesting

figure behind,

a religious person.

So depending

on your background it could be

that the church is complicit

in its silence

to all the,

that’s happening

in the country.

You have dedicated

all your life

to this cause.

Can you share

a bit about,

when this started?

When did you start to,

you know, do advocacy?

When did you start to,

help victims of human

rights violations

in the Philippines

to to help them in

front of courts?

Did it

start at the university?

Was it later on?

How how did it

come about?

I actually grew up

during the Marcos

dictatorship,

so I was really exposed

to a lot of issues on

human rights.

I was a member of a

young Protestant

organization

that's very active

politically.

Then opposing

the dictatorship

And then I went

to a university

that, has the

tradition of activism.

And it was also exposed

to a lot of human rights issues then.

So when I became a young lawyer,

it was very natural

for me to take

on, human rights cases

pro bono on the side

while I was,

practicing privately

to provide for my own

my own needs.

And you did this

with other fellows

and-co students,

and then with all,

was there already

an organization

behind it?

Yes.

We, we put up

CenterLaw

in 2003,

informally

and formally in 2004,

and we started out

representing journalists

who were

being sued for

libel or defamation

because they were

being harassed

by politicians

or businessmen

because of,

news coverage about,

corruption

or government abuses

or business abuses.

So that's

how we started.

We started

with journalists

who were

being persecuted

journalists.

And then I heard

this kind of

the word spread.

Yeah.

You are

that you representing,

pro bono journalists

So it grew

kind of naturally

out of that, Yes

And there were only few

lawyers, actually,

who were doing

pro bono work.

So, you know,

they would

naturally come to us.

Yes.

But you could

not only do

pro bono work,

you also had to live

out of something.

So you started

your own,

law office as well.

And, and so currently

you're doing,

CenterLaw

as well

as your own law office

for private clients.

Yes. That's right.

We used to have

a separate office

between our,

private,

law firm and CenterLaw

when we were getting

some grants,

in support of our

public interest

and pro bono cases.

during the pandemic,

we had to complete

both the law office

and the

and the,

and CenterLaw.

If you see,

we have the funds

that do more to,

separately notice

that you reduce costs

for the office

space and,

yes, office

space and, staff

and filings.

You saw the papers?

We will

in just one case,

we have, like, spent,

47,000 pages

since yesterday,

we've been photocopying

47,000 pages

because we're

going to file

in the Supreme

Court on Monday.

This is with

respect to our client

Four clients, actually,

who died and one

client survived

during the,

drug war

of the

previous administration,

Rodrigo Duterte

Maybe we start with

really tapping

into the issue

here in the Philippines.

So as far

as I understand,

the laws are there.

The structure is there,

but it's not

executed or implemented

in the right way,

or there is a

lack of resources

or also willpower

to actually

pull this through.

Is this

is this a

a correct statement

or would you

would you describe it

differently?

Yeah, actually,

if you,

you read our laws,

Philippine laws,

we have

all the model laws

that are the envy of,

most Asian countries.

We are signatories to,

treaties,

international treaties

on human rights.

All things probably

were even more

democratic on paper

compared to some

European countries.

And when we go around,

Southeast

Asia and,

East Asia

and we do

capacity building

and we mentioned

the kind of laws

that we have,

they're actually envious

because we really have

all the model laws.

But the problem is in

implementation, it's

not really followed.

And despite,

you know,

human rights

and democracy,

the police,

the military,

they do not actually

there’s a tradition

Probably

because of the

previous experience.

with the dictatorship

there's there's really

very little respect for,

the rights of

the ordinary people.

From government

agencies. Yeah.

So it's a human rights

violations happen

mainly from,

from government.

Government?

Yes.

Government agencies,

government agencies

that,

somehow maybe

not following the laws.

Yes, that they’re

disrespecting human rights

of journalists,

of other people,

that we will tap into.

So

what about the courts?

Are they

neutral?

Are they doing

what they should do?

Are they objective

or is that also

a problem

of jurisdiction?

The courts are

relatively, independent

and relatively fair,

although there are issues

about corruption

and pressures

from the government.

But the problem with

the court

is that it's

a passive institution.

If, the police

or the government or,

private individuals

don't file cases,

there are no

human rights cases

that would be decided

in the courts.

And and that's

what's happening.

The police,

they don't

they're supposed

to, submit documents in

the courts.

Witnesses

are supposed

to file cases,

but witnesses

and,

families of

victims are afraid

because it would

be going

against,

security forces,

against the police

and the military

and government,

political leaders.

So that's the problem.

Even if you

if if you have

a fair,

competent, court

and that's

actually the,

the, defense

that's being, raised by

the by

Rodrigo Duterte

to the former president,

we have an

independent court and

all that.

But the problem is

there are

no cases filed,

so the courts

cannot do anything.

So you mentioned the

drug war?

Yes.

Be tapped

into journalists.

And now drug war.

What happened

during the past

eight years?

Here in the Philippines?

The former

president Rodrigo Duterte

came to power

and right on day one

of his presidency,

the killings started.

And it reach,

with the estimates

of human rights

organizations,

30,000 killings total.

So we have our

version of

the Holocaust.

There were like

7,000 killings that were

committed by police operatives,

They admitted that they

they killed

those persons,

but their defense is

that they were

doing it

in self-defense,

which is actually,

you know, fabricated.

But there were a lot

of vigilante killings.

These are masked

assassins.

On board motorcycles.

Who would just

shot their targets

point blank.

But there are a

lot of testimonies

that before

these assassins arrive

police operatives

would,

go around the area

and, look at,

you know, possible,

scenarios.

So they kind

of really set up

the area

for these assassins.

because of,

what happened?

We started,

representing,

some of the victims.

People then were really afraid.

They didn’t want to file

any case.

They didn’t want to complain

because of,

it was really,

really dangerous.

They were afraid

they were really afraid

and they didn't

have the means.

Yes, we had

clients who

were brave enough,

and we filed,

1 or 2 cases, actually,

that's a very,

They're unprecedented

during the drug war.

One case.

the government

actually conceded,

they admitted that

there was a violation

because,

because of the evidence.

So they conceded that,

the CCTV

cameras, the windows

there was a person

who, was shot,

but we lived to

tell the tale, and,

you know,

the the,

the locations of the

of the gunshots,

they would

they would show

that they

were assassinated

because the

entry points are,

higher than the exit points.

So it was really from.

Yes, from from above,

because they were

they were made to sit.

And this

person survived. Yes.

This person survived?

This is the case

that we're going

to file, on Monday.

Which why?

You you know,

a lot of things.

A lot of papers do.

So you filed

some cases here

in the Philippines?

Yes,

we filed some cases,

but nothing yet.

I mean,

we still have papers,

and this is a

couple of years ago.

Yes. Nothing.

So no decision yet?

No decision, actually.

The case that we filed

was dismissed.

That's

why we're appealing

to the Supreme Court.

Our client,

who was the one

who was shot,

was the one who was sued

by the police.

The police said that,

he was the one

who directly assaulted

the police,

and he was sued,

and we had to go through

a full blown

trial for, like,

six years.

But we had him

acquitted,

only last year.

So the case against him

ran for six years

while the case,

that he filed

against the police,

it’s left

for, like, six years,

and then suddenly

it was dismissed.

So you had to first

defend him?

Yes, we had to defend.

And now you can.

Yes you can,

you can make the case

against the police.

Yes. So.

Where is the problem?

The problem is,

the evidence,

the police,

they actually have the,

scene of the crime

reports. Okay.

Even the, the bullets,

the location of the,

the cartridges

The practically,

you know, this

all the evidence is taken

from the scene

of the crime.

They have those.

So the assassinations

happened,

and then the police

came officially to

to make the report.

Yes. Okay.

You could not

do anything about.

They did not search

for the yes,

for the the murders

or they did not.

They just

they just

made the report

and then that

that was it huh?

Yes.

Actually,

we just mention

this case,

they admitted that

they were the ones

who,

shot the, our clients,

but they did it

in self-defense. Always.

That's always

the defense

of the police

when,

the killings,

are happened

and the in their hands.

But in some cases,

the police admitted

that they did it,

purposefully

or they or some,

some,

people that speak up

never that

that that admit

that they have been

instructed to

kill somebody.

Yeah.

But,

they're anonymous

so far.

Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah.

Probably in the ICC.

There are there

there's, half that.

There are,

police,

and assassins

that were actually,

already admitted.

So

summing up here

in the Philippines,

it's really,

really hard

to actually pull through

10, 20,000 cases

if you spent. Yeah.

You know,

six years on one case.

How much more

would you spend on many,

many more

thousands of cases

that, things that

have happened. Yes.

You just

mentioned the ICC.

So there is another

another case

pending

and at the International

Criminal Court.

Yes.

What is

the International

Criminal Court?

There is another court

as well.

And International Court

of Justice. Right.

How do

they differentiate

each other

and what is

currently happening.

The the International

Criminal Court

is actually a court

that handles

what's called

crimes against humanity.

They don't prosecute

the foot soldiers

or the persons who,

pull the triggers.

They actually prosecute

the masterminds of higher ups

generals, presidents or political leaders

who order or who

mastermind, crimes

against humanity.

And,

the ICC prosecutes

individuals.

The Philippines was

a member of the ICC

until 2018,

when it started

investigating

the Philippines.

The previous

president withdrew

our membership

from the ICC,

but thankfully

the withdrawal

is only prospective,

so it doesn't cover

the past crimes

that we're committed.

That's why

we still have this case,

and we are

representing 400

so far at this

at this stage

where representing

400 victims, there

there are actually

four Filipino lawyers

who are licensed

to the ICC,

and two of them

are actually part

of Sanpaolo.

So,

we're very hopeful

that, we will be

the ones who represent

who will be representing

most of the, victims

when trial starts.

And who

are you accusing?

We're accusing

the former president,

of course.

The,

the chief

of the Philippine

National Police,

who is now

a powerful senator.

But there are

other witnesses

who are accusing

even the daughter,

the incumbent vice

president, now,

because the killings

cover even the killings

that started

when Duterte was a

mayor in Davao

in 2011.

So, the,

the daughter is also,

a potential accused,

then another

powerful senator

who used to be

the executive

assistant of Duterte

so this

four powerful people,

hopefully

are going to be

issued warrant of arrest

in the ICC

this obviously needs

a lot of preparation.

So this is what

you do, right?

Since couple of

years now you

you prepare

a preparing everything

or you filing paperwork,

a lot of paperwork.

What's the

current status

of this whole process?

I heard that the ICC,

the Philippine

government, tried to.

To block it.

To block it? Yes.

Yes.

Actually,

the Philippine

government

tried to block

the investigation

of the ICC.

They were saying

that we have

a functioning court

and the ICC can

only come in

if, the courts

don't function.

Well, thankfully,

the ICC ruled that,

that's not the issue.

The issue is

there's no prosecution

going on

against the masterminds.

You can have

a functioning court,

but if no cases

are filed in the courts,

there's still failure

on the part

of the government

to prosecute.

And the complementary

jurisdiction

of the ICC kicks in,

and they can still

do prosecution

So currently

you are awaiting,

formal,

arrest for what I want.

What what is

what is the next

step from the ICC?

What would be the next?

The what's called the,

office

of the prosecutor.

The ODP is doing

its investigation

and preliminary

investigation.

When the,

prosecutor finds

that there are

enough cases to justify

a trial,

it will apply

for a warrant for arrest

against the persons

that they identified.

Are responsible for the,

for the killings

that happened.

So we're hopeful

that, the

the OTP will wrap up

its, investigation soon

and then it will issue

a warrant of arrest,

just like what it did

with, Vladimir Putin

in Ukraine.

And the leaders of Hamas

and Israel

in, Israel

and Palestine.

Okay.

So that will be

the next step

that they. Yes.

How do you

cope with.

With this

frustration

that you must have

seeing all of this and

and and experiencing

like multiple

episodes of yeah,

just prolonging stuff

of of

agencies, organizations

that work against,

against you

constantly, repeatedly.

How do you cope

with that?

You know, how

where do you get

the strength

to pull through

like now decades

of of

of pro

bono work like this?

We're not really immune

to frustration.

We get frustrated

every year

that,

that pieces are dealing.

But when you take on

this kind of

an advocacy,

you kind of consider

that, this,

inconveniences,

this injustice.

Are there

and,

you just have to plan on

because,

the injustice

that you saw,

it's like an itch

that you have

to scratch,

and you

just have to go on.

And, you

always remind

yourself that,

you have to make your

country a better place,

out of helping someone.

Who is underprivileged

or who is a victim of

injustice is different

its different from the,

satisfaction

that you get

from accumulating

fortunes and fame somehow,

you know,

it gives you a,

a, a feeling

that cannot be equated

to, material things.

Material things. Yeah.

It gives you purpose

Yeah.

It gives you a purpose.

Yes.

It's really impressive

that, you

for me personally,

it's really impressive

that you pull

through for

such a long time.

That is something

that especially

our generation

struggles with. Right?

Staying staying put

and and

pulling something

through.

This is something that

I think our generation

is not

used to anymore

more like that.

Some some really

highly valued

things take time and

the cases that you,

that you represent,

you know,

they take time

and effort and,

resources and,

Yeah.

And optimism.

So thank

you so much for the work

that you do.

Can you

share with us

quickly how

can we support you

or how can we

support the work

that you do?

Right now, we we,

we kind of manage

by supporting ourselves.

to the office

to the law office

Yeah. Yes.

To the office.

We spend for all the expenses

and we devote our time,

our young lawyers time.

But if,

we are able to get,

support, from,

grand organizations

or other organizations,

we can

we can actually do more

because we don't have to

worry for it.

Where do we get the,

the money for rent

and for

the salaries

of the staff?

If, we are able to get,

some help for,

for the expenses that

we have to deal with,

you know, our pro bono

and public interest cases,

I think we can do more.

And we want to do more actually

Because there's

so many things.

There's so much work.

Yeah. Yes.

And there are

not too many,

people

who are doing this

kind of work, actually,

in the Philippines.

And that is where,

that is where

CenterLaw Switzerland

comes into play. Right?

Our relationship

and the

the foundation of this,

this organization,

this association

in Switzerland,

where we try

to get funds

that, free

you from doing

the paid work.

And if hopefully

give you in the future

more time to do the

pro bono work

that is so important.

only a few will will do

the amount

that you are doing

at the moment.

And, we try to free

you from,

from this burden of,

of constantly tackling,

also with finances.

So thank you so much

for taking the time,

giving me,

a visit

into your office

and sharing

your thoughts

and your, your

about your work,

showing me your art.

And thank you so much

for everything.

And I wish you

all the best.

Much blessings.

and on to you soon

Thank you so much Markus,

for having an interest

in, looking into what,

the kind of work

that we do.

And in, considering

you know, tapping

into your

group of friends

and network

in, Europe to extend

help to us.

Thank you so much.

Thank you to.