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These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated: 1 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:07,000 Downloaded from YTS.MX 2 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:13,000 Official YIFY movies site: YTS.MX 3 00:00:12,721 --> 00:00:15,765 (mysterious music playing) 4 00:00:16,933 --> 00:00:19,728 Jamie Dimon: Every day, you know, you have nonstop Bitcoin. 5 00:00:19,811 --> 00:00:21,730 Who cares about Bitcoin? 6 00:00:21,813 --> 00:00:22,897 (click) 7 00:00:22,981 --> 00:00:24,232 (cash register dings) 8 00:00:25,025 --> 00:00:26,943 I could care less what Bitcoin trades for, 9 00:00:26,985 --> 00:00:29,320 how it trades, why it trades, who trades it. 10 00:00:29,404 --> 00:00:30,447 If you're stupid enough to buy, 11 00:00:30,530 --> 00:00:32,323 you'll pay the price for it one day. 12 00:00:32,741 --> 00:00:34,826 (clicking) 13 00:00:34,909 --> 00:00:37,037 YouTuber: Bitcoin is a fucking scam. 14 00:00:37,120 --> 00:00:38,788 Donald Trump (on phone): Bitcoin seems like a scam. 15 00:00:38,830 --> 00:00:41,750 -Magical internet money. -It has no intrinsic value. 16 00:00:41,833 --> 00:00:43,460 (clicking) 17 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:46,004 Dimon: Bitcoin is worthless. 18 00:00:46,087 --> 00:00:48,757 -What makes it valuable? -Totally BS. 19 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:50,050 Bitcoin is a dead end. 20 00:00:52,218 --> 00:00:54,346 Brian Kelly: Bitcoin's dead again! 21 00:00:54,429 --> 00:00:56,014 It's a combination of a bubble, a Ponzi scheme, 22 00:00:56,097 --> 00:00:57,098 and an economic disaster. 23 00:00:57,182 --> 00:00:58,850 Whatever it's doing, it's not money. 24 00:00:58,933 --> 00:01:01,644 Whatever Bitcoin is, it is not money. 25 00:01:01,895 --> 00:01:04,314 -(clicking) -(cash register dings) 26 00:01:04,356 --> 00:01:07,484 Bitcoin is simply gonna implode before you know it. 27 00:01:07,567 --> 00:01:09,652 Today, we're having a funeral for Bitcoin. 28 00:01:09,694 --> 00:01:12,322 Cullen Hoback: Despite all the doomsday prophecies, 29 00:01:12,405 --> 00:01:15,283 just 15 years after launch, Bitcoin had become 30 00:01:15,325 --> 00:01:17,786 the 10th most valuable asset in the world, 31 00:01:17,827 --> 00:01:21,164 outperforming Wall Street by a massive margin. 32 00:01:21,206 --> 00:01:23,291 One of the biggest unanswered questions 33 00:01:23,333 --> 00:01:26,211 surrounding Bitcoin is who invented it. 34 00:01:26,294 --> 00:01:27,796 Andy Court: When you ask about the creator, 35 00:01:27,879 --> 00:01:29,506 who created this, we have no idea. 36 00:01:29,547 --> 00:01:32,676 -There's these things called nerds. -(studio laughter) 37 00:01:32,717 --> 00:01:34,010 And in 2008, 38 00:01:34,052 --> 00:01:36,638 one of them made up Bitcoin out of thin air, 39 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:39,516 using the fake name Satoshi Nakamoto. 40 00:01:39,599 --> 00:01:40,642 Satoshi Nakamoto. 41 00:01:40,725 --> 00:01:42,018 -Satoshi-- -Nakamoto. 42 00:01:42,060 --> 00:01:44,354 Which, I think, are the Japanese words 43 00:01:44,396 --> 00:01:46,189 -for Monopoly money. -(studio laughter) 44 00:01:46,231 --> 00:01:48,024 Hoback: Satoshi Nakamoto, 45 00:01:48,108 --> 00:01:50,318 the inventor of said Monopoly money, 46 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:53,863 was now presumably one of the richest people on Earth. 47 00:01:53,905 --> 00:01:56,199 speaker: We are all Satoshi! 48 00:01:56,282 --> 00:01:58,201 (applause, cheering) 49 00:01:58,243 --> 00:02:01,663 Hoback: This anonymous character had developed quite a following. 50 00:02:01,705 --> 00:02:04,165 And if all these pundits kept being wrong, 51 00:02:04,207 --> 00:02:06,251 and Bitcoin kept going up, 52 00:02:06,334 --> 00:02:08,044 then Satoshi could be worth 53 00:02:08,128 --> 00:02:10,088 more than a trillion dollars. 54 00:02:10,171 --> 00:02:12,007 -With a "T." -(cash register dings) 55 00:02:12,090 --> 00:02:13,258 And that's because Satoshi controlled 56 00:02:13,341 --> 00:02:15,385 a shit-ton of Bitcoin. 57 00:02:15,468 --> 00:02:17,762 Enough to break the system. 58 00:02:17,846 --> 00:02:21,224 But, many years ago, Satoshi had disappeared 59 00:02:21,266 --> 00:02:23,226 without spending any of it. 60 00:02:23,309 --> 00:02:24,394 What would happen 61 00:02:24,477 --> 00:02:26,896 if Satoshi just reemerged one day 62 00:02:26,938 --> 00:02:28,231 to cash in? 63 00:02:28,273 --> 00:02:30,942 They'd be like king of the world. 64 00:02:31,026 --> 00:02:32,277 Who is Satoshi Nakamoto? 65 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:34,404 Who do you think he really is? 66 00:02:34,446 --> 00:02:36,406 Hoback: Simply put, Satoshi's identity 67 00:02:36,489 --> 00:02:38,033 has remained the greatest mystery 68 00:02:38,116 --> 00:02:39,659 of the Internet Age. 69 00:02:39,743 --> 00:02:42,495 No one knows who they are, even though a lot of people 70 00:02:42,579 --> 00:02:43,913 have tried to figure this out. 71 00:02:43,955 --> 00:02:46,624 YouTuber: Tonight's plan? To reveal the identity 72 00:02:46,708 --> 00:02:48,668 of Satoshi Nakamoto, 73 00:02:48,752 --> 00:02:51,129 creator of Bitcoin. 74 00:02:51,212 --> 00:02:53,631 Is he no longer here? Is he amongst us? 75 00:02:53,715 --> 00:02:54,924 โ™ชโ™ช 76 00:02:54,966 --> 00:02:57,635 Hoback: Well, someone probably knew. 77 00:02:57,719 --> 00:02:59,179 Like maybe this guy... 78 00:02:59,262 --> 00:03:01,473 It's too high risk for Satoshi to come back. 79 00:03:01,556 --> 00:03:03,808 -(ding) -Hoback: ...who you'll get to know soon enough. 80 00:03:03,892 --> 00:03:05,602 It's way too high risk. 81 00:03:05,685 --> 00:03:07,187 What's risky about it? 82 00:03:07,270 --> 00:03:10,106 Well, you get implicated as Satoshi. 83 00:03:10,148 --> 00:03:12,776 And then, every country in the world 84 00:03:12,817 --> 00:03:14,361 is gonna wanna go after you. 85 00:03:14,444 --> 00:03:17,113 Or people are gonna go after you to steal it. 86 00:03:17,155 --> 00:03:18,239 But, why does, like, a murderer 87 00:03:18,281 --> 00:03:19,616 go back to the scene of the crime? 88 00:03:19,908 --> 00:03:22,452 Satoshi's doing nothing to pick up his stash. 89 00:03:22,494 --> 00:03:24,829 Hoback: Yeah, just a million Bitcoin. 90 00:03:24,913 --> 00:03:26,790 And that's why he went to such great lengths 91 00:03:26,831 --> 00:03:29,793 to conceal his identity. 92 00:03:29,876 --> 00:03:31,461 He thought of everything. 93 00:03:31,544 --> 00:03:34,339 Hoback: Well, not everything. 94 00:03:34,506 --> 00:03:37,717 (dramatic music playing) 95 00:04:07,789 --> 00:04:10,083 -Cash. -customer: That should be 1,000. 96 00:04:10,166 --> 00:04:11,793 Hoback: How often do you pay with it? 97 00:04:11,835 --> 00:04:13,503 customer: Such nice guns! 98 00:04:13,586 --> 00:04:16,506 Hoback: You probably use your card for just about everything. 99 00:04:16,548 --> 00:04:20,176 -Denied, denied... approved. -(studio laughter) 100 00:04:20,260 --> 00:04:21,803 Hoback: But the cool thing about cash, 101 00:04:21,845 --> 00:04:23,680 you hand over your money, 102 00:04:23,763 --> 00:04:25,682 you get a thing, 103 00:04:25,765 --> 00:04:28,643 and no bank, credit card company, government agency, 104 00:04:28,685 --> 00:04:30,603 data broker, social media advertiser 105 00:04:30,687 --> 00:04:33,440 gets to know about your hobbies. 106 00:04:34,607 --> 00:04:36,192 But, it seemed like we were maybe on our way 107 00:04:36,234 --> 00:04:38,570 to getting rid of cash entirely. 108 00:04:38,653 --> 00:04:41,239 As the world transitions into a cashless society... 109 00:04:41,322 --> 00:04:43,033 speaker: "We've gone cashless." 110 00:04:43,116 --> 00:04:46,661 No one wants to carry around cash anymore. That's already-- Cash is gone. 111 00:04:46,703 --> 00:04:48,705 Hoback: In fact, there are quite a few things about the dollar 112 00:04:48,747 --> 00:04:51,374 that were just outdated because these dudes 113 00:04:51,416 --> 00:04:53,585 -didn't have iPhones. -(notification chimes) 114 00:04:53,668 --> 00:04:55,337 But, if you were to start from scratch, 115 00:04:55,420 --> 00:04:58,048 how would you make cash for the digital age? 116 00:04:59,758 --> 00:05:00,884 It was 2017 117 00:05:00,925 --> 00:05:03,845 when I really started paying attention to Bitcoin. 118 00:05:03,928 --> 00:05:05,388 And as a filmmaker 119 00:05:05,430 --> 00:05:07,515 who was concerned with online surveillance... 120 00:05:07,557 --> 00:05:08,850 Everything moved into ones and zeros, 121 00:05:08,933 --> 00:05:10,769 and ones and zeros can be tracked and traced. 122 00:05:10,852 --> 00:05:12,228 ...the idea that Bitcoin 123 00:05:12,270 --> 00:05:15,565 was supposed to protect your privacy was pretty appealing. 124 00:05:16,107 --> 00:05:18,109 It was trying to be money for the internet. 125 00:05:18,193 --> 00:05:19,903 โ™ชโ™ช 126 00:05:19,944 --> 00:05:21,237 And it had a few features 127 00:05:21,321 --> 00:05:23,531 that the current financial system just didn't. 128 00:05:23,573 --> 00:05:24,783 -(bell clanging) -announcer: Fight! 129 00:05:24,949 --> 00:05:27,494 Hoback: No single person or group controlled it, 130 00:05:27,577 --> 00:05:29,621 it was basically impossible to shut down, 131 00:05:29,704 --> 00:05:31,122 -it was scarce. -(Pikachu panting) 132 00:05:31,206 --> 00:05:34,000 Anyone with an internet connection could access it. 133 00:05:34,084 --> 00:05:36,252 -You are personally responsible for it. -(roars) 134 00:05:36,294 --> 00:05:38,088 And it was super secure 135 00:05:38,171 --> 00:05:40,006 unless you made a mistake. 136 00:05:40,548 --> 00:05:42,926 And it was distributed through something called 137 00:05:43,009 --> 00:05:44,427 "Bitcoin mining," 138 00:05:44,469 --> 00:05:46,054 which I tried. 139 00:05:46,805 --> 00:05:49,349 -Even if you don't usually pay attention to Bitcoin... -(rummaging) 140 00:05:49,432 --> 00:05:51,101 ...you might have still heard about it. 141 00:05:51,142 --> 00:05:54,145 Miners using powerful computers 142 00:05:54,229 --> 00:05:56,439 to guess a random string of numbers 143 00:05:56,481 --> 00:05:58,900 and win a Bitcoin reward. 144 00:05:58,942 --> 00:06:01,277 Hoback: It's how new Bitcoins enter the system. 145 00:06:01,319 --> 00:06:02,737 This fancy computing rig, 146 00:06:02,779 --> 00:06:04,864 it's like a ticket to the Bitcoin lottery. 147 00:06:04,948 --> 00:06:06,574 You said 1,600 Watts? 148 00:06:06,658 --> 00:06:09,035 It takes a lot of electricity. 149 00:06:09,119 --> 00:06:11,705 -(rustling) -And if your mining rig is the first in the entire world 150 00:06:11,788 --> 00:06:13,832 to find the computational equivalent 151 00:06:13,915 --> 00:06:14,958 of a golden ticket... 152 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:17,419 -I got it, Mr. Salt! Here it is! -(cheering) 153 00:06:17,460 --> 00:06:19,671 Hoback: ...you win some freshly minted Bitcoin. 154 00:06:19,754 --> 00:06:21,631 That means that some people are gonna lose a lot of money. 155 00:06:21,673 --> 00:06:23,091 -Probably. -Oh yeah. 156 00:06:23,174 --> 00:06:25,552 Hoback: And every 10 minutes, you get another shot. 157 00:06:25,635 --> 00:06:27,178 It was the modern gold rush 158 00:06:27,262 --> 00:06:29,514 from the comfort of your living room. 159 00:06:29,597 --> 00:06:31,933 -But, my miner wasn't so lucky. -(fan whirring) 160 00:06:31,975 --> 00:06:34,394 So, instead of winning a down payment for a house, 161 00:06:34,477 --> 00:06:37,480 I just ended up with a large electricity bill. 162 00:06:37,564 --> 00:06:39,816 -(whirring stops) -Eh, fuck. 163 00:06:39,858 --> 00:06:41,693 And the occasional power outage. 164 00:06:41,776 --> 00:06:43,987 I don't think this is gonna work. (laughs) 165 00:06:44,029 --> 00:06:46,823 Meaning I'd have to go get my Bitcoin on an exchange, 166 00:06:46,865 --> 00:06:48,992 kinda like how you buy stocks. 167 00:06:49,034 --> 00:06:49,993 And like stocks, 168 00:06:50,076 --> 00:06:51,995 people kinda hope that this digital asset 169 00:06:52,037 --> 00:06:53,872 -is gonna make them rich. -(cheering) 170 00:06:53,955 --> 00:06:56,833 Which, let's be honest, was the real draw. 171 00:06:56,916 --> 00:06:58,710 (blasting music) 172 00:06:58,793 --> 00:07:00,837 It was fueled by an online culture 173 00:07:00,879 --> 00:07:02,922 that was invested in seeing Bitcoin win. 174 00:07:03,006 --> 00:07:06,301 You're supposed to buy the dip. Buy Bitcoin. 175 00:07:06,384 --> 00:07:09,679 Hoback: Designed to pull people away from a financial system 176 00:07:09,763 --> 00:07:12,057 that seemed like it was stacked against the average person. 177 00:07:12,140 --> 00:07:13,433 If you win all three rats, 178 00:07:13,516 --> 00:07:15,769 -and they come in one-two-three, you win everything. -Oh, my God. 179 00:07:15,852 --> 00:07:17,187 Drew Carey: But, you have to win some rats. 180 00:07:17,228 --> 00:07:19,397 Hoback: And Bitcoin provided this glimmer of hope 181 00:07:19,481 --> 00:07:21,399 that you might get out of the rat race. 182 00:07:21,483 --> 00:07:24,527 -Look at them go! Oh, man, you're gonna have a car. -(crowd cheering) 183 00:07:24,569 --> 00:07:25,820 (rats squeaking) 184 00:07:25,862 --> 00:07:28,656 Hoback: Asking you to put your faith in math 185 00:07:28,740 --> 00:07:30,033 instead of the government. 186 00:07:30,116 --> 00:07:31,993 -I don't know what I said, ah! -We finally beat Medicare. 187 00:07:32,035 --> 00:07:34,704 Hoback: So, maybe that's why in 2021, 188 00:07:34,746 --> 00:07:37,332 an entire country adopted Bitcoin. 189 00:07:37,374 --> 00:07:39,334 Because the current financial system 190 00:07:39,376 --> 00:07:41,503 was also stacked against them. 191 00:07:42,045 --> 00:07:45,965 -(street chatter) -(curious music playing) 192 00:07:46,591 --> 00:07:48,718 This is El Salvador, a Latin American nation 193 00:07:48,802 --> 00:07:51,429 plagued with a history of gang violence, 194 00:07:51,513 --> 00:07:53,723 corruption, and civil war. 195 00:07:53,807 --> 00:07:55,642 For more than 20 years, they had resorted 196 00:07:55,725 --> 00:07:58,895 to using the US dollar as their official currency, 197 00:07:58,937 --> 00:08:00,897 adding to why the president's announcement 198 00:08:00,980 --> 00:08:02,482 sent shock waves around the world. 199 00:08:02,565 --> 00:08:04,526 (crowd cheering) 200 00:08:04,567 --> 00:08:05,902 Nayib Bukele: Where are the Bitcoiners? 201 00:08:06,319 --> 00:08:09,072 Hoback: He planned to tie the country's future to Bitcoin. 202 00:08:09,155 --> 00:08:11,574 For starters, they bought a bunch of it using... 203 00:08:11,658 --> 00:08:14,244 reporter: 105 million taxpayer dollars. 204 00:08:14,327 --> 00:08:16,496 Hoback: Then, the country began accepting Bitcoin 205 00:08:16,579 --> 00:08:18,540 as legal tender. 206 00:08:18,623 --> 00:08:21,543 Suddenly, Bitcoin could be used alongside the dollar 207 00:08:21,584 --> 00:08:24,087 to pay for things like breakfast, real estate, 208 00:08:24,170 --> 00:08:26,006 or even taxes. 209 00:08:26,548 --> 00:08:28,341 At least, that was the idea. 210 00:08:28,425 --> 00:08:31,970 We announced that El Salvador was making Bitcoin legal tender. 211 00:08:32,053 --> 00:08:34,681 (crowd cheering) 212 00:08:34,764 --> 00:08:36,891 We had some protests, did you see those? 213 00:08:36,933 --> 00:08:39,310 They started with misinformation to the people, 214 00:08:39,394 --> 00:08:40,562 telling them Bitcoin was bad, 215 00:08:40,645 --> 00:08:42,480 and, you know, you shouldn't use that currency 216 00:08:42,564 --> 00:08:44,357 because it's invisible. You cannot see it! 217 00:08:44,441 --> 00:08:46,776 -(laughter) -Yeah, exactly. 218 00:08:46,860 --> 00:08:48,611 They are all full of bullshit. 219 00:08:48,653 --> 00:08:50,238 Hoback: The president was betting 220 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:52,949 that other countries would want in on the game, 221 00:08:53,033 --> 00:08:56,244 would reject the hegemony of the US dollar. 222 00:08:56,286 --> 00:08:57,495 Who was behind this effort? 223 00:08:57,996 --> 00:09:01,708 So, we talked with my friend Samson. Where is he? 224 00:09:01,791 --> 00:09:03,585 -(cheering) -Samson? 225 00:09:03,626 --> 00:09:05,962 So, this is going to make El Salvador 226 00:09:06,046 --> 00:09:08,006 the financial center of the world. 227 00:09:08,089 --> 00:09:12,218 This is the beginning of, uh, nation-state Bitcoin FOMO. 228 00:09:12,302 --> 00:09:14,137 Do you guys like that? 229 00:09:14,179 --> 00:09:15,805 (crowd cheering) 230 00:09:15,847 --> 00:09:17,557 Hoback: The guy on stage with the president 231 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:19,351 clearly had something to do with it. 232 00:09:19,601 --> 00:09:21,144 So, I reached out. 233 00:09:21,186 --> 00:09:24,147 -Hello, we're going on a helicopter. -speaker: That's right. Hello. 234 00:09:24,189 --> 00:09:27,025 Hoback: Samson worked for a company that was trying to expand 235 00:09:27,108 --> 00:09:28,860 Bitcoin's reach around the globe. 236 00:09:28,943 --> 00:09:30,695 He considered himself a kind of 237 00:09:30,779 --> 00:09:33,198 diplomatic ambassador for Bitcoin. 238 00:09:33,656 --> 00:09:35,784 And the president was treating him like one. 239 00:09:35,867 --> 00:09:38,787 -(helicopter whirring) -Samson was busy 240 00:09:38,828 --> 00:09:40,580 trying to convince Mexico's third richest man, 241 00:09:40,663 --> 00:09:43,124 known as Uncle Richi, 242 00:09:43,208 --> 00:09:44,626 to use his power plant to mine Bitcoin. 243 00:09:44,709 --> 00:09:47,003 Because, you know, 244 00:09:47,087 --> 00:09:49,756 who wants to just be third richest? 245 00:09:49,839 --> 00:09:52,258 (Ricardo Salinas speaking English) 246 00:09:55,345 --> 00:09:56,888 (Samson Mow speaking English) 247 00:09:58,306 --> 00:10:00,058 (Salinas speaking) 248 00:10:06,022 --> 00:10:08,900 Hoback: Like myself, investors also had questions 249 00:10:08,983 --> 00:10:12,404 when it came to Satoshi, Bitcoin's anonymous creator. 250 00:10:13,029 --> 00:10:17,033 It was the elephant in the helicopter, so to speak. 251 00:10:27,293 --> 00:10:28,336 -They're gone. -They're gone. 252 00:10:52,193 --> 00:10:53,236 Yep. 253 00:10:55,113 --> 00:10:56,948 Hoback: Just before the launch of Bitcoin, 254 00:10:57,032 --> 00:11:00,577 there was a digital currency backed by actual gold, 255 00:11:00,660 --> 00:11:03,246 which was reportedly processing $2 billion 256 00:11:03,329 --> 00:11:05,165 in transactions every year. 257 00:11:05,248 --> 00:11:07,083 E-gold is a currency 258 00:11:07,125 --> 00:11:09,252 that's currently pretty popularized 259 00:11:09,336 --> 00:11:10,837 with a lot of online users. 260 00:11:11,087 --> 00:11:14,007 Hoback: They promised that e-gold would be here this year, 261 00:11:14,090 --> 00:11:16,676 next year, 1,000 years from now. 262 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:18,178 But, it seems the US government 263 00:11:18,261 --> 00:11:20,638 didn't give a shit what their website said. 264 00:11:20,722 --> 00:11:23,683 They arrested its creator and shut it down. 265 00:11:23,767 --> 00:11:24,809 The takeaway? 266 00:11:25,018 --> 00:11:27,062 If you're going to create a digital currency 267 00:11:27,145 --> 00:11:29,105 that will compete with the US dollar, 268 00:11:29,147 --> 00:11:30,815 you might wanna be really careful 269 00:11:30,899 --> 00:11:33,818 about letting people know who you are. 270 00:11:33,902 --> 00:11:36,529 And because Satoshi disappeared and never cashed out, 271 00:11:36,613 --> 00:11:39,616 I figured maybe their identity should stay a secret. 272 00:11:39,657 --> 00:11:41,868 -(propeller plane whirring) -After all, 273 00:11:41,951 --> 00:11:43,703 it's not like they had some master plan for Bitcoin 274 00:11:43,787 --> 00:11:46,456 to replace the US dollar and render them 275 00:11:46,539 --> 00:11:48,917 the richest person on Earth. Right? 276 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:50,293 (quirky music playing) 277 00:11:50,377 --> 00:11:52,587 Satoshi understood the game theory of it all. 278 00:11:52,671 --> 00:11:55,465 If Bitcoin was successful, 279 00:11:56,508 --> 00:11:57,842 they'd go after him. 280 00:11:58,510 --> 00:12:00,720 (Hoback speaking) 281 00:12:05,100 --> 00:12:08,103 I don't think he would've created this gift for the world 282 00:12:08,144 --> 00:12:11,106 just to keep it as a threat over the future. 283 00:12:11,147 --> 00:12:14,734 He was more thinking for the good of humanity. 284 00:12:14,818 --> 00:12:17,404 Money is very broken. 285 00:12:17,487 --> 00:12:21,157 It's just a house of cards built on top of more houses of cards 286 00:12:21,241 --> 00:12:22,784 on more houses of cards. 287 00:12:22,867 --> 00:12:24,494 It's all gonna come crashing down. 288 00:12:24,536 --> 00:12:28,707 And when it does, that's when hyperbitcoinization kicks in. 289 00:12:28,790 --> 00:12:30,583 (Hoback speaking) 290 00:12:30,667 --> 00:12:32,502 Samson Mow: Hyperbitcoinization is just, 291 00:12:32,544 --> 00:12:35,171 you can earn Bitcoin, spend Bitcoin, 292 00:12:35,255 --> 00:12:39,384 save in Bitcoin, and the dollar is irrelevant. 293 00:12:40,468 --> 00:12:41,970 Hoback: There are a handful of countries 294 00:12:42,053 --> 00:12:44,389 that had printed their way into hyperinflation, 295 00:12:44,597 --> 00:12:48,184 where money becomes worth less than the paper it's printed on. 296 00:12:48,268 --> 00:12:51,229 But, that could never happen to the US dollar. 297 00:12:52,188 --> 00:12:53,606 Could it? 298 00:12:54,107 --> 00:12:55,900 -(tense music playing) -(crowd chatter) 299 00:12:55,984 --> 00:12:57,777 reporter 1: Lehman Brothers is going bankrupt. 300 00:12:57,861 --> 00:12:59,696 reporter 2: Customers are freaked out, 301 00:12:59,738 --> 00:13:01,364 waiting to see how low the Dow will go. 302 00:13:01,448 --> 00:13:04,034 Hoback: Back in 2008, the world came really close 303 00:13:04,117 --> 00:13:06,536 to figuring out that our entire economic system 304 00:13:06,619 --> 00:13:09,247 was held together with chewing gum and duct tape. 305 00:13:09,330 --> 00:13:11,207 reporter: The President's plan would allow the Treasury 306 00:13:11,291 --> 00:13:15,128 to buy up to $700 billion worth of bad loans. 307 00:13:15,211 --> 00:13:18,131 Hoback: Trust in financial institutions was hard to find. 308 00:13:18,214 --> 00:13:21,468 I know Americans are concerned about the adjustments. 309 00:13:21,551 --> 00:13:24,012 -(shutter snapping) -Hoback: The only business that seemed to be booming 310 00:13:24,095 --> 00:13:27,557 involved taking pictures of depressed stockbrokers. 311 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:30,852 It was during this fiasco that a mysterious programmer, 312 00:13:30,935 --> 00:13:33,605 calling themselves Satoshi Nakamoto, 313 00:13:33,688 --> 00:13:35,106 conceived of Bitcoin, 314 00:13:35,190 --> 00:13:37,901 an electronic cash system. 315 00:13:37,942 --> 00:13:41,446 And it was all set in motion on January 3, 2009... 316 00:13:42,989 --> 00:13:45,533 when the first Bitcoin block was born. 317 00:13:45,617 --> 00:13:47,869 It's called the Genesis Block. 318 00:13:47,911 --> 00:13:51,414 And a new block is formed about every 10 minutes, 319 00:13:51,498 --> 00:13:54,876 adding to the record of all the Bitcoin transactions. 320 00:13:54,918 --> 00:13:56,836 It's called a blockchain. 321 00:13:56,920 --> 00:13:59,923 It's like an indestructible mathematical safe, 322 00:14:00,006 --> 00:14:02,467 one that keeps track of who owns what. 323 00:14:03,134 --> 00:14:05,595 And if you want to unlock your Bitcoin, 324 00:14:05,637 --> 00:14:07,889 it'll require your secret key, 325 00:14:07,931 --> 00:14:10,558 which is basically just a fancy password. 326 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:14,229 Bitcoin now has hundreds of thousands of blocks. 327 00:14:14,312 --> 00:14:18,024 But, in the Genesis Block, Satoshi hid a message. 328 00:14:18,108 --> 00:14:21,152 "Chancellor on brink of second bailout for banks." 329 00:14:21,695 --> 00:14:24,447 Referencing a headline that had appeared in the London "Times" 330 00:14:24,531 --> 00:14:26,157 that same morning. 331 00:14:26,825 --> 00:14:28,326 It was a subtle declaration of war 332 00:14:28,410 --> 00:14:30,286 against the world's financial powers, 333 00:14:30,370 --> 00:14:32,956 which had just printed more than a trillion dollars 334 00:14:33,039 --> 00:14:35,959 to satisfy the recklessness of the big banks. 335 00:14:36,001 --> 00:14:37,669 In apparent opposition, 336 00:14:38,086 --> 00:14:40,714 Satoshi designed Bitcoin with a limited supply. 337 00:14:41,339 --> 00:14:43,299 No one could just print more of it. 338 00:14:43,383 --> 00:14:46,511 Only 21 million total could ever be mined. 339 00:14:46,594 --> 00:14:49,848 It was programmed so that the miners would receive 340 00:14:49,931 --> 00:14:51,808 less and less over time. 341 00:14:51,891 --> 00:14:53,309 Until 2140, 342 00:14:53,393 --> 00:14:56,604 when the digital mine basically runs out, 343 00:14:56,688 --> 00:14:57,981 with Satoshi writing, 344 00:14:58,064 --> 00:15:00,859 "It's very attractive to the libertarian viewpoint, 345 00:15:00,942 --> 00:15:02,485 "if we can explain it properly. 346 00:15:02,527 --> 00:15:05,530 I'm better with code than with words though." 347 00:15:05,613 --> 00:15:07,782 You know, for Bitcoiners who actually might know 348 00:15:07,866 --> 00:15:09,075 who Satoshi is, if they do, 349 00:15:09,159 --> 00:15:11,703 do you think that they would keep that secret? 350 00:15:11,786 --> 00:15:13,705 (plane whirring) 351 00:15:13,788 --> 00:15:15,999 Well, I would keep the secret. 352 00:15:16,041 --> 00:15:18,168 Adam Back would keep the secret. 353 00:15:18,209 --> 00:15:21,171 Hoback: Samson's boss is a cryptographer 354 00:15:21,254 --> 00:15:24,799 named Adam Back which jumped out at me 355 00:15:24,883 --> 00:15:26,092 because Adam Back 356 00:15:26,176 --> 00:15:28,803 has a pretty important connection to Satoshi. 357 00:15:28,887 --> 00:15:31,222 He was believed to be the first person 358 00:15:31,306 --> 00:15:33,641 Satoshi ever reached out to. 359 00:15:33,683 --> 00:15:36,811 People have pushed Adam to release the Satoshi emails 360 00:15:36,895 --> 00:15:38,688 that Satoshi sent to him. 361 00:15:38,772 --> 00:15:41,232 But, Adam is a very upstanding guy. 362 00:15:41,316 --> 00:15:44,361 His line of thinking is that is a private conversation. 363 00:15:44,444 --> 00:15:46,112 So, he's never released those emails. 364 00:15:46,196 --> 00:15:48,406 I've seen them, and, you know, 365 00:15:49,324 --> 00:15:50,408 they're real. 366 00:15:51,076 --> 00:15:53,703 Hoback: Adam's company is called Blockstream. 367 00:15:53,745 --> 00:15:56,414 They were largely behind this effort in El Salvador. 368 00:15:56,498 --> 00:15:58,124 And now, they were looking to help 369 00:15:58,208 --> 00:16:00,043 more countries adopt Bitcoin. 370 00:16:00,085 --> 00:16:01,920 Which brings Bitcoin closer 371 00:16:02,003 --> 00:16:04,172 to becoming the new global standard. 372 00:16:04,214 --> 00:16:06,758 Which, in turn, could make Satoshi 373 00:16:06,841 --> 00:16:09,135 the richest person on Earth. 374 00:16:09,219 --> 00:16:10,637 It might make you wonder 375 00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:12,597 if Satoshi had any relationship to Blockstream, 376 00:16:13,390 --> 00:16:16,184 assuming Satoshi was still alive. 377 00:16:16,559 --> 00:16:20,188 So, I asked Samson if he could connect me with Adam Back. 378 00:16:20,230 --> 00:16:23,149 -Adam, is your mic on? Can you hear me? -Just wait a minute... 379 00:16:23,233 --> 00:16:24,776 Okay, should be good. 380 00:16:25,777 --> 00:16:27,987 (over video call) I had, you know, a brief interaction, 381 00:16:28,071 --> 00:16:31,241 email interaction, with Satoshi in 2008. 382 00:16:31,324 --> 00:16:33,410 And-And, like, what happened? We don't know. 383 00:16:33,451 --> 00:16:35,912 I mean, is he alive or not? I don't know. Um... 384 00:16:36,371 --> 00:16:37,914 Did he just choose a different pseudonym? 385 00:16:37,956 --> 00:16:39,249 Is he-- he still active? 386 00:16:39,332 --> 00:16:40,667 We don't know that either, I'd say. 387 00:16:40,750 --> 00:16:44,421 Satoshi's wallet, there's this huge sort of chest 388 00:16:44,504 --> 00:16:45,463 that hasn't been tapped. 389 00:16:45,547 --> 00:16:47,674 It seems almost like a, you know, a Bible story, 390 00:16:47,757 --> 00:16:49,300 where nobody really knows quite what happened 391 00:16:49,384 --> 00:16:50,802 because it was so many years ago. 392 00:16:51,344 --> 00:16:54,305 It's hard to be definitive, I guess is my point. (laughs) 393 00:16:55,098 --> 00:16:57,183 Hoback (over video call): So, Adam, are you planning any trips 394 00:16:57,267 --> 00:16:58,768 to El Salvador anytime soon? 395 00:16:58,852 --> 00:17:01,187 Adam Back: I haven't really been traveling that much lately. 396 00:17:01,271 --> 00:17:03,106 Usually in Malta, actually. 397 00:17:03,189 --> 00:17:06,818 We should start with just an interview with you in Malta. 398 00:17:06,901 --> 00:17:08,153 Um... 399 00:17:09,446 --> 00:17:12,282 If that sounds... if that sounds good to you. 400 00:17:13,324 --> 00:17:14,659 Okay. 401 00:17:15,410 --> 00:17:17,454 โ™ชโ™ช 402 00:17:17,537 --> 00:17:19,164 Hoback: When Adam moved to Malta, 403 00:17:19,247 --> 00:17:21,249 Bitcoin was just getting started. 404 00:17:21,291 --> 00:17:22,584 It had no value yet. 405 00:17:22,667 --> 00:17:24,961 So, perhaps it's just a coincidence 406 00:17:25,003 --> 00:17:27,797 that Malta is considered a tax haven. 407 00:17:28,798 --> 00:17:30,508 So, how'd you end up in Malta? 408 00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:33,261 Adam Back: Um, so, in 2009, 409 00:17:33,303 --> 00:17:35,180 I was working for a startup. 410 00:17:35,263 --> 00:17:37,098 I was thinking as a remote worker, 411 00:17:37,140 --> 00:17:38,308 I would try something adventurous, 412 00:17:38,391 --> 00:17:40,435 find somewhere interesting to live. 413 00:17:41,019 --> 00:17:43,646 Hoback: The cryptography behind Bitcoin 414 00:17:43,688 --> 00:17:45,482 is what makes it secure. 415 00:17:45,565 --> 00:17:47,776 It's the "crypto" in cryptocurrency. 416 00:17:47,817 --> 00:17:51,154 And cryptographers, they're like the math wizards 417 00:17:51,237 --> 00:17:54,157 who are skilled at making digital locks. 418 00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:55,658 And to create Bitcoin, 419 00:17:55,700 --> 00:17:57,827 Satoshi referenced ideas from a few of them. 420 00:17:57,911 --> 00:18:00,914 In particular, something that Adam Back had invented, 421 00:18:00,997 --> 00:18:02,290 called Hashcash. 422 00:18:02,582 --> 00:18:06,336 And he dreamed this up 12 years before the creation of Bitcoin. 423 00:18:06,961 --> 00:18:10,590 Were you the first person that Satoshi reached out to? 424 00:18:10,674 --> 00:18:11,758 I believe so, yeah. 425 00:18:11,841 --> 00:18:13,510 He just sent an email, um, 426 00:18:13,551 --> 00:18:16,054 saying that he's about to publish, um, a paper... 427 00:18:16,513 --> 00:18:19,849 Hoback: What would become Satoshi's famous white paper. 428 00:18:20,392 --> 00:18:24,229 ...and wants to know the correct way to cite Hashcash. 429 00:18:26,856 --> 00:18:30,568 Did you ever release the emails that you had with Satoshi? 430 00:18:31,611 --> 00:18:34,155 -No. -Was that to protect privacy 431 00:18:34,239 --> 00:18:36,074 'cause they were private emails or what was the reason? 432 00:18:36,157 --> 00:18:37,492 Yeah, kind of convention-- 433 00:18:37,534 --> 00:18:40,537 I mean, convention, so-called "netiquette," 434 00:18:40,578 --> 00:18:42,914 which was a popular term back then, was that 435 00:18:42,997 --> 00:18:45,458 you would not post somebody's emails without permission. 436 00:18:45,542 --> 00:18:47,377 Like, nobody knows how to reach this guy at this point, 437 00:18:47,419 --> 00:18:48,837 so I can't ask, you know? 438 00:18:48,962 --> 00:18:51,214 Hoback: But, we can look into the group of people 439 00:18:51,297 --> 00:18:54,718 Satoshi relied on for inspiration and support. 440 00:18:54,801 --> 00:18:56,553 Namely, the cypherpunks. 441 00:18:56,636 --> 00:18:59,097 -(modem dialing up) -(dramatic music playing) 442 00:18:59,514 --> 00:19:01,516 Back in the day, there was a lot of hope 443 00:19:01,558 --> 00:19:03,268 that this thing called the internet 444 00:19:03,351 --> 00:19:05,937 was going to usher in an era of newfound freedom. 445 00:19:06,021 --> 00:19:08,898 BBC speaker: Imagine a world where every word ever written 446 00:19:08,940 --> 00:19:10,942 could be viewed instantly in your home 447 00:19:11,026 --> 00:19:13,153 via an information superhighway. 448 00:19:13,236 --> 00:19:15,405 Hoback: But, only a few predicted 449 00:19:15,488 --> 00:19:18,033 the surveillance hellscape that lay ahead. 450 00:19:18,116 --> 00:19:21,244 And they could be found on the Cypherpunk Mailing List. 451 00:19:21,286 --> 00:19:24,539 Every cryptographer worth their salt was on it. 452 00:19:24,581 --> 00:19:26,458 Cypherpunks are cryptography activists 453 00:19:26,541 --> 00:19:29,210 who believe in personal privacy for everybody. 454 00:19:29,252 --> 00:19:31,504 Hoback: Which meant in a digital world, 455 00:19:31,588 --> 00:19:34,382 you would need some way to secure your communications. 456 00:19:34,424 --> 00:19:36,551 In the physical world, you had a good degree of privacy. 457 00:19:36,593 --> 00:19:38,261 In the online realm, in principle, 458 00:19:38,345 --> 00:19:39,596 you should enjoy the same rights. 459 00:19:39,637 --> 00:19:41,348 I mean, why should you lose your rights just because 460 00:19:41,431 --> 00:19:43,266 you're using a different communication mechanism? 461 00:19:44,059 --> 00:19:47,395 Hoback: But, the military, and three-letter agencies, 462 00:19:47,437 --> 00:19:50,190 viewed cryptography as a tool of war. 463 00:19:50,273 --> 00:19:52,025 And they didn't want unbreakable security 464 00:19:52,108 --> 00:19:53,068 in the hands of the masses. 465 00:19:53,109 --> 00:19:54,986 The unrestrained public discussion 466 00:19:55,070 --> 00:19:56,488 of cryptographic research 467 00:19:56,571 --> 00:19:58,156 threatened our national security. 468 00:19:58,239 --> 00:19:59,449 Hoback: The cypherpunks waged 469 00:19:59,532 --> 00:20:01,785 a massive battle against the US government. 470 00:20:01,826 --> 00:20:04,079 Back: I was sitting around at university and thinking, 471 00:20:04,162 --> 00:20:06,081 man, this is, this is so ridiculous. 472 00:20:06,122 --> 00:20:08,625 -Hoback: So, Adam, being part punk... -(electric guitar sting) 473 00:20:08,708 --> 00:20:11,628 ...created an easily wearable bit of illicit code. 474 00:20:11,670 --> 00:20:14,297 It was just a method of encryption. 475 00:20:14,381 --> 00:20:16,257 Wear the shirt while crossing a border, 476 00:20:16,299 --> 00:20:18,009 and it could be considered weapons trafficking. 477 00:20:18,093 --> 00:20:20,303 -(buzzing) -Back: A few people had tattoos with it on 478 00:20:20,345 --> 00:20:22,472 to, like, you know, to make the argument that, 479 00:20:22,555 --> 00:20:24,140 "Well, can I, can I leave the country now? 480 00:20:24,224 --> 00:20:26,184 I've got this on my arm," kind of thing. 481 00:20:26,518 --> 00:20:28,978 Hoback: And if you've ever used a secure messaging app, 482 00:20:29,813 --> 00:20:32,941 well, you have Adam and his cypherpunk buddies to thank 483 00:20:33,024 --> 00:20:34,317 because they won. 484 00:20:34,401 --> 00:20:36,695 Except one key thing evaded them. 485 00:20:36,778 --> 00:20:38,988 Back: Permissionless electronic cash for the internet. 486 00:20:39,072 --> 00:20:41,157 Hey, this could actually change the world for the better. 487 00:20:41,199 --> 00:20:42,826 Hoback: They understood that in a future 488 00:20:42,909 --> 00:20:45,120 where everything would be tracked and traced, 489 00:20:45,203 --> 00:20:47,664 you needed untraceable digital cash. 490 00:20:47,747 --> 00:20:50,041 The holy grail was to find a solution to this problem. 491 00:20:50,125 --> 00:20:51,209 Hoback: And we're not talking about 492 00:20:51,292 --> 00:20:53,169 a digital representation of money 493 00:20:53,253 --> 00:20:54,629 like when you use a bank or credit card. 494 00:20:54,671 --> 00:20:57,090 -(buzzing) -We're talking entirely decentralized, 495 00:20:57,173 --> 00:20:59,676 -totally secure, fully autonomous currencies -(whooshing) 496 00:20:59,759 --> 00:21:03,471 spread across the globe that no one could control or shut down. 497 00:21:03,513 --> 00:21:05,640 It all needed to work without putting trust in a bank, 498 00:21:05,682 --> 00:21:07,851 a government, or some big corporation. 499 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:11,896 I want to tell you how PayPal stole my money 500 00:21:11,980 --> 00:21:13,314 and my girlfriend. 501 00:21:13,815 --> 00:21:16,359 Hoback: Over the years, a few key cypherpunks 502 00:21:16,443 --> 00:21:18,903 took stabs at trying to make this work. 503 00:21:19,362 --> 00:21:21,072 It was deemed impossible. 504 00:21:21,156 --> 00:21:24,993 But then, somehow, Satoshi showed up and figured it out. 505 00:21:25,035 --> 00:21:26,870 Back: You know, you talk to a lot of technical people, 506 00:21:26,953 --> 00:21:30,081 and they will say of Bitcoin, "I could have done that." 507 00:21:30,623 --> 00:21:33,626 I say it's actually much harder than it looks. (laughs) 508 00:21:33,710 --> 00:21:35,211 I'm just trying to imagine, like, 509 00:21:35,253 --> 00:21:37,130 who would've been working around the clock 510 00:21:37,213 --> 00:21:39,049 to introduce something like Bitcoin...? 511 00:21:39,132 --> 00:21:41,343 So, it could be somebody that was on the cypherpunks list 512 00:21:41,384 --> 00:21:43,136 that nobody knew the real name of. 513 00:21:43,219 --> 00:21:45,347 Or it could be somebody younger. 514 00:21:45,388 --> 00:21:49,225 -(plucky music playing) -(foreboding rumble) 515 00:21:49,809 --> 00:21:51,478 Rachel-Rose O'Leary: I think the question, 516 00:21:51,561 --> 00:21:53,438 "Who was Satoshi?" always kind of creeps in. 517 00:21:53,521 --> 00:21:55,565 It's hard to avoid that question. 518 00:21:55,607 --> 00:21:57,776 But, I've been told it was a secret 519 00:21:57,859 --> 00:22:01,363 which was known, but that was closely guarded. 520 00:22:01,404 --> 00:22:02,864 That there were people in Bitcoin 521 00:22:02,906 --> 00:22:04,741 who knew who Satoshi is, 522 00:22:04,783 --> 00:22:06,451 but that they wouldn't reveal it. 523 00:22:06,534 --> 00:22:10,330 Um, and that maybe Satoshi was a group of people 524 00:22:10,413 --> 00:22:11,998 that is, like, still active in Bitcoin today. 525 00:22:12,082 --> 00:22:15,418 Hoback: Rachel-Rose was a journalist for CoinDesk. 526 00:22:15,460 --> 00:22:17,212 It's one of the most popular media outlets 527 00:22:17,295 --> 00:22:19,422 covering the whole crypto space. 528 00:22:19,506 --> 00:22:21,132 Since leaving CoinDesk, 529 00:22:21,216 --> 00:22:22,884 she'd become a crypto-anarchist, 530 00:22:22,926 --> 00:22:26,471 -which is about using subversive technology... -(laughs) 531 00:22:26,554 --> 00:22:27,931 ...to dodge government control. 532 00:22:27,972 --> 00:22:29,766 O'Leary: I was hoping you might have the time 533 00:22:29,808 --> 00:22:31,559 to interview Amir while you're here. 534 00:22:31,601 --> 00:22:33,603 He's, uh, one of the first five developers 535 00:22:33,645 --> 00:22:35,605 to talk with Satoshi. 536 00:22:35,689 --> 00:22:37,899 -Hoback: Where is he in Switzerland? -He's downstairs. 537 00:22:37,941 --> 00:22:39,859 -Hoback: Oh, he's here? Oh, he lives with you! -(laughing) 538 00:22:39,943 --> 00:22:42,320 Who just happened to be her boyfriend. 539 00:22:42,404 --> 00:22:43,488 Good to meet you. 540 00:22:43,780 --> 00:22:47,534 Amir Taaki is a British-Iranian anarchist revolutionary 541 00:22:47,617 --> 00:22:49,411 and one of the earliest programmers 542 00:22:49,452 --> 00:22:52,831 who worked on Bitcoin after Satoshi handed it off. 543 00:22:52,914 --> 00:22:54,332 (speaking English) 544 00:22:54,416 --> 00:22:55,959 Hoback: In terms of the "Fuck the man, 545 00:22:56,042 --> 00:22:58,503 burn down the system" roots of Bitcoin, 546 00:22:58,586 --> 00:23:01,548 this guy is about as real as it gets. 547 00:23:01,631 --> 00:23:03,091 Should I call it... 548 00:23:03,174 --> 00:23:04,884 Drug Market Ultra 549 00:23:04,968 --> 00:23:06,928 or Death Market Revive? 550 00:23:07,303 --> 00:23:08,638 These days, the Bitcoiners, 551 00:23:08,722 --> 00:23:10,682 they don't really talk about me anymore. 552 00:23:10,765 --> 00:23:13,143 I'm no longer "in" with the Bitcoin crowd. 553 00:23:13,184 --> 00:23:15,311 But, part of it is because, 554 00:23:15,353 --> 00:23:17,147 uh, I went to fight in Syria. 555 00:23:17,230 --> 00:23:18,773 (ominous music playing) 556 00:23:18,815 --> 00:23:21,693 And I was like-- I was out of crypto for two years. 557 00:23:22,527 --> 00:23:25,321 There's a few photos of him with Kalashnikov, 558 00:23:25,405 --> 00:23:28,033 and it's like, "Bitcoiner Fights ISIS in Syria." 559 00:23:28,825 --> 00:23:30,118 Amir Taaki: It was more like three years, 560 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:33,038 because I was under house arrest for one year as well. 561 00:23:33,121 --> 00:23:34,372 Hoback: Oh wow. For what? 562 00:23:34,456 --> 00:23:36,708 Investigation of terrorism. 563 00:23:37,500 --> 00:23:40,503 Hoback: How did you get involved with Bitcoin? 564 00:23:40,545 --> 00:23:44,174 I remember when I first got into Bitcoin in 2010. 565 00:23:44,215 --> 00:23:45,508 (dramatic music playing) 566 00:23:45,550 --> 00:23:47,344 I started to, like, delve a bit deeper, 567 00:23:47,427 --> 00:23:49,346 started to look at the code. 568 00:23:49,429 --> 00:23:51,598 The code itself was very bad, 569 00:23:51,681 --> 00:23:54,434 didn't seem like the guy who had wrote it 570 00:23:54,517 --> 00:23:56,728 was a professional developer. 571 00:23:57,312 --> 00:24:00,273 But, it wasn't nothing either. 572 00:24:00,357 --> 00:24:02,525 Conceptually, it was, it was a leap. 573 00:24:02,609 --> 00:24:04,277 It was interesting. 574 00:24:04,361 --> 00:24:05,653 Hoback: Was Satoshi communicating with you 575 00:24:05,737 --> 00:24:07,947 in the early days at all? 576 00:24:08,031 --> 00:24:09,407 Just on the forums. 577 00:24:09,783 --> 00:24:11,868 Hoback: Satoshi created the Bitcoin Talk forum, 578 00:24:11,951 --> 00:24:14,621 where early enthusiasts could interact with Satoshi 579 00:24:14,704 --> 00:24:17,040 who wrote 575 total posts. 580 00:24:17,123 --> 00:24:20,919 -(mouse wheel scrolling) -Their posts usually had a kind of bland academic style. 581 00:24:21,002 --> 00:24:23,171 Unless something got under Satoshi's skin. 582 00:24:24,089 --> 00:24:25,882 Which Amir succeeded at. 583 00:24:25,965 --> 00:24:29,844 Taaki: When I posted about WikiLeaks... 584 00:24:29,928 --> 00:24:31,888 Hoback: WikiLeaks, an online collective 585 00:24:31,930 --> 00:24:33,723 known for publishing state secrets, 586 00:24:33,807 --> 00:24:36,059 had become the target of the state. 587 00:24:36,142 --> 00:24:39,062 The US government pressured Visa, MasterCard, 588 00:24:39,145 --> 00:24:41,147 PayPal to block all donations 589 00:24:41,231 --> 00:24:42,941 and freeze their funds. 590 00:24:43,024 --> 00:24:46,778 So, Amir suggested they start accepting donations in Bitcoin. 591 00:24:47,153 --> 00:24:49,114 "PC World" picked up the story. 592 00:24:49,197 --> 00:24:52,742 Satoshi was afraid this rapid adoption by WikiLeaks 593 00:24:52,784 --> 00:24:54,744 would attract the wrong kind of attention 594 00:24:54,786 --> 00:24:56,746 from three-letter agencies. 595 00:24:56,830 --> 00:24:58,248 One of my favorite quotes, 596 00:24:58,665 --> 00:25:01,001 "WikiLeaks has kicked the hornet's nest, 597 00:25:01,084 --> 00:25:03,712 and the swarm is headed towards us." 598 00:25:03,753 --> 00:25:06,798 That's one theory for Satoshi's departure. 599 00:25:07,549 --> 00:25:08,883 Hoback: The very next day, 600 00:25:08,925 --> 00:25:12,178 that's when Satoshi made their last post on the forum. 601 00:25:14,264 --> 00:25:17,434 But, Satoshi quietly continued communication 602 00:25:17,517 --> 00:25:19,019 with a select few people, 603 00:25:19,102 --> 00:25:21,896 primarily with a guy named Gavin Andresen, 604 00:25:21,980 --> 00:25:24,357 who had been an early contributor to Bitcoin. 605 00:25:24,441 --> 00:25:25,775 I was kind of looking around 606 00:25:25,859 --> 00:25:28,528 for an interesting open source software project 607 00:25:28,611 --> 00:25:31,364 to contribute to and stumbled across Bitcoin, 608 00:25:31,448 --> 00:25:32,991 and then got sucked in. 609 00:25:33,074 --> 00:25:35,118 Satoshi, when he left, 610 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:37,037 he distributed control 611 00:25:37,120 --> 00:25:39,456 amongst different people in the community. 612 00:25:39,539 --> 00:25:40,749 Hoback: Now, Gavin represented 613 00:25:40,790 --> 00:25:43,126 a very different type of Bitcoiner than Amir. 614 00:25:43,209 --> 00:25:46,713 He wanted to work with the state, not against it. 615 00:25:46,796 --> 00:25:49,049 He's a normie. Like a boomer-normie. 616 00:25:49,132 --> 00:25:52,969 Hoback: But, normalizing Bitcoin appeared to be Satoshi's goal. 617 00:25:53,011 --> 00:25:56,014 And Gavin looked like he was from an L.L.Bean catalog. 618 00:25:56,097 --> 00:25:57,974 Every time I tried to make a change to Bitcoin, 619 00:25:58,058 --> 00:26:00,810 he tried to reject it. I was like, dude, fuck off! 620 00:26:00,852 --> 00:26:02,270 Hoback: On the Bitcoin website, 621 00:26:02,312 --> 00:26:05,690 Satoshi even replaced their own email with Gavin's, 622 00:26:05,774 --> 00:26:08,276 seemingly rendering him the spokesperson. 623 00:26:08,318 --> 00:26:11,905 So, I-I took over from the mysterious Satoshi Nakamoto. 624 00:26:11,988 --> 00:26:14,616 Hoback: But, Satoshi became annoyed with Gavin's PR efforts 625 00:26:14,699 --> 00:26:16,159 rather quickly, writing, 626 00:26:16,242 --> 00:26:17,994 "I wish you wouldn't keep talking about me 627 00:26:18,078 --> 00:26:20,163 "as a mysterious shadowy figure. 628 00:26:20,205 --> 00:26:23,500 The press just turns that into a pirate currency angle." 629 00:26:23,583 --> 00:26:27,003 Then, Gavin did something that mortified early Bitcoiners, 630 00:26:27,087 --> 00:26:29,839 prompting Satoshi to permanently cut ties. 631 00:26:29,923 --> 00:26:33,134 My last email to him was telling him that I had 632 00:26:33,218 --> 00:26:36,054 agreed to go visit the folks at the CIA. 633 00:26:36,137 --> 00:26:37,347 โ™ชโ™ช 634 00:26:37,430 --> 00:26:39,015 Taaki: Gavin Andresen announced 635 00:26:39,057 --> 00:26:43,019 that he was visiting the CIA to present Bitcoin. 636 00:26:43,061 --> 00:26:45,522 Everybody was absolutely shocked. 637 00:26:45,605 --> 00:26:47,857 Like, dude, what are you doing? 638 00:26:48,316 --> 00:26:50,318 And after that, Satoshi just disappeared. 639 00:26:50,360 --> 00:26:52,445 Nobody heard from him again. 640 00:26:52,529 --> 00:26:53,988 Hoback: Which was good timing 641 00:26:54,030 --> 00:26:58,243 because Bitcoin was about to find its first real-use case: 642 00:26:58,785 --> 00:27:00,578 buying drugs. 643 00:27:01,246 --> 00:27:03,498 YouTuber: Something special came in the mail 644 00:27:03,581 --> 00:27:05,375 just today from Silk Road. 645 00:27:05,417 --> 00:27:08,670 reporter: Imagine logging on to an Amazon-like marketplace, 646 00:27:08,753 --> 00:27:10,880 only instead of household items and shoes, 647 00:27:10,922 --> 00:27:12,215 you can buy heroin, meth, 648 00:27:12,298 --> 00:27:14,843 and pretty much any other drug you can think of. 649 00:27:14,926 --> 00:27:16,928 "Many thanks and much love." 650 00:27:17,012 --> 00:27:19,431 Yeah, I'm pretty sure there are some, uh, 651 00:27:19,514 --> 00:27:21,641 people interested in drugs, let's say, 652 00:27:21,725 --> 00:27:23,476 who ended up being relatively wealthy. 653 00:27:23,935 --> 00:27:26,730 Hoback: While this sent Bitcoin's value skyrocketing, 654 00:27:26,771 --> 00:27:29,065 its reputation was easy pickings. 655 00:27:29,149 --> 00:27:30,859 It's untraceable, and that makes me think 656 00:27:30,900 --> 00:27:33,653 that the real purpose of Bitcoin is to use it for drugs 657 00:27:33,737 --> 00:27:36,322 or to buy weapons illegally. 658 00:27:36,406 --> 00:27:39,659 Hoback: Although anarchists like Amir were loving it, 659 00:27:39,743 --> 00:27:41,995 the emerging generation of corporate Bitcoiners 660 00:27:42,078 --> 00:27:45,915 wanted to improve its image, give Bitcoin a friendlier face. 661 00:27:46,041 --> 00:27:48,251 reporter: Bitcoin Jesus himself joins us on the phone. 662 00:27:48,293 --> 00:27:50,587 -Roger, great to have you back. -Roger Ver (on phone): Hello, everyone. 663 00:27:50,628 --> 00:27:51,671 Thank you for having me again. 664 00:27:51,963 --> 00:27:54,299 Hoback: Roger Ver put millions of dollars 665 00:27:54,382 --> 00:27:56,760 into some of the first Bitcoin startups, 666 00:27:56,843 --> 00:27:59,304 eventually rendering him a billionaire. 667 00:27:59,387 --> 00:28:02,265 But, when Roger first heard about Bitcoin, 668 00:28:02,349 --> 00:28:03,808 he had what's best described 669 00:28:03,892 --> 00:28:06,936 as a near-religious experience. 670 00:28:07,020 --> 00:28:09,022 Got so excited about Bitcoin and didn't sleep for a week 671 00:28:09,105 --> 00:28:10,648 and literally had to be taken to the hospital, 672 00:28:10,732 --> 00:28:11,858 and they gave me a sedative. 673 00:28:11,941 --> 00:28:14,402 Anybody here that's sick of the government 674 00:28:14,486 --> 00:28:15,737 inflating the money supply 675 00:28:15,779 --> 00:28:17,822 to pay to kill people all around the world? 676 00:28:17,906 --> 00:28:19,199 Stop using their money! 677 00:28:19,282 --> 00:28:20,909 This was like a dream come true for me. 678 00:28:20,992 --> 00:28:23,119 The-The thing I've been waiting almost my entire life 679 00:28:23,161 --> 00:28:24,537 finally arrived, and so, of course, 680 00:28:24,621 --> 00:28:26,331 I was gonna be busy promoting that. 681 00:28:26,414 --> 00:28:29,000 Hoback: Like a prophet, Roger spread Bitcoin 682 00:28:29,084 --> 00:28:31,544 to anyone he met, earning him the title 683 00:28:31,628 --> 00:28:33,672 of Bitcoin Jesus. 684 00:28:33,755 --> 00:28:37,008 (speaking Japanese) 685 00:28:39,803 --> 00:28:41,346 I think the world would just plain work better 686 00:28:41,429 --> 00:28:44,474 and be better for everybody if there wasn't a ruling class 687 00:28:44,557 --> 00:28:46,601 called the government. Uh... 688 00:28:46,685 --> 00:28:48,061 But, I don't want chaos. I want order 689 00:28:48,144 --> 00:28:50,063 and things to work smoothly and people to deal with each other 690 00:28:50,146 --> 00:28:52,565 on a voluntary basis to make the world a more orderly, 691 00:28:52,649 --> 00:28:54,109 prosperous place for everybody. 692 00:28:58,822 --> 00:29:02,283 (speaking English) 693 00:29:07,497 --> 00:29:10,542 (dramatic music playing) 694 00:29:11,584 --> 00:29:14,462 Hoback: Nouriel Roubini is a famous economist, 695 00:29:14,504 --> 00:29:18,049 best known for predicting the 2008 financial collapse, 696 00:29:18,133 --> 00:29:20,927 earning him the nickname Dr. Doom. 697 00:29:21,011 --> 00:29:22,137 I'm a pain for them 698 00:29:22,178 --> 00:29:24,723 because I'm public enemy number one of crypto. 699 00:29:24,806 --> 00:29:28,059 YouTuber: Nouriel Roubini. He can either be 700 00:29:28,143 --> 00:29:30,520 the world's biggest crypto troll 701 00:29:30,562 --> 00:29:32,188 or an idiot. 702 00:29:32,272 --> 00:29:35,150 Hoback: He's also known for throwing wild hot tub parties, 703 00:29:35,233 --> 00:29:38,361 where he looks to have "10 girls to every one guy." 704 00:29:38,403 --> 00:29:41,573 You know, I usually say that I'm not, uh, "Dr. Doom," 705 00:29:41,656 --> 00:29:43,283 I'm Dr. Realist. 706 00:29:44,117 --> 00:29:47,746 Honestly, I believe that crypto, even blockchain, 707 00:29:48,496 --> 00:29:52,250 is the biggest fad in financial history. 708 00:29:52,751 --> 00:29:56,129 In crypto, somebody steals your private key, 709 00:29:56,212 --> 00:29:59,549 your money is gone, your wealth is gone forever, 710 00:29:59,591 --> 00:30:01,426 for good. It disappears. 711 00:30:01,509 --> 00:30:02,761 reporter: This guy is out 712 00:30:02,844 --> 00:30:05,221 of $225 million. 713 00:30:05,305 --> 00:30:07,599 Bitcoiner: Seven and a half thousand bitcoins 714 00:30:07,682 --> 00:30:09,893 on a hard drive that I'd thrown out. 715 00:30:09,976 --> 00:30:11,853 If somebody steals my credit card 716 00:30:11,895 --> 00:30:14,147 or gets my bank deposit, 717 00:30:14,230 --> 00:30:16,107 literally, I make a phone call, 718 00:30:16,191 --> 00:30:18,902 and I'm made 100% whole on that. 719 00:30:18,943 --> 00:30:20,570 We have reasons why 720 00:30:20,612 --> 00:30:22,947 we can monitor financial transactions. 721 00:30:23,031 --> 00:30:25,325 Some government may abuse it, 722 00:30:25,408 --> 00:30:28,161 but there is no civilized country in the world, 723 00:30:28,244 --> 00:30:31,039 or government, is gonna allow crypto. 724 00:30:31,122 --> 00:30:33,041 There will be a crackdown, 725 00:30:33,124 --> 00:30:34,709 and it's all gonna disappear. 726 00:30:34,751 --> 00:30:38,213 This is about undermining the Federal Reserve. 727 00:30:38,296 --> 00:30:41,591 This is about dis-intermediating the nation-state. 728 00:30:41,675 --> 00:30:44,052 Satoshi, whoever he or she was, 729 00:30:44,135 --> 00:30:45,720 maybe was an idealist. 730 00:30:45,762 --> 00:30:48,973 Maybe he really cared about protecting people 731 00:30:49,057 --> 00:30:51,935 from excessive abuse of power and so on. 732 00:30:51,976 --> 00:30:54,145 The ideological origins 733 00:30:54,229 --> 00:30:57,941 of cryptocurrency, of Bitcoin, of Satoshi himself, 734 00:30:57,982 --> 00:31:00,694 unequivocally anti nation-state 735 00:31:00,777 --> 00:31:02,696 and pro human freedom. 736 00:31:03,154 --> 00:31:05,240 Hoback: But, they had a problem. 737 00:31:05,281 --> 00:31:07,283 While Satoshi understood that Bitcoin 738 00:31:07,325 --> 00:31:11,162 wasn't actually anonymous, just about everyone else... 739 00:31:11,246 --> 00:31:12,622 They didn't realize it was traceable. 740 00:31:12,706 --> 00:31:15,291 It wasn't until there was analysis done, 741 00:31:15,333 --> 00:31:18,628 cryptographers looking into it started to see, actually, 742 00:31:18,712 --> 00:31:19,796 there's links. 743 00:31:19,879 --> 00:31:21,464 There's like a trail on the blockchain 744 00:31:21,548 --> 00:31:22,549 that we can actually map. 745 00:31:22,632 --> 00:31:24,134 Hoback: So, if someone who stole 746 00:31:24,175 --> 00:31:26,052 a bunch of Bitcoin tries to cash out, 747 00:31:26,136 --> 00:31:27,637 you can see that their Bitcoin wallet 748 00:31:27,721 --> 00:31:29,431 contains the stolen funds. 749 00:31:29,472 --> 00:31:33,018 -(pop, yelling, banging) -Which is how people doing illegal shit got caught. 750 00:31:33,101 --> 00:31:35,270 Today, the FBI successfully seized 751 00:31:35,353 --> 00:31:38,314 criminal proceeds from a Bitcoin wallet. 752 00:31:38,356 --> 00:31:39,482 โ™ชโ™ช 753 00:31:39,524 --> 00:31:41,401 Hoback: So, Amir gathered some hackers together 754 00:31:41,484 --> 00:31:42,902 in a sketchy squad 755 00:31:42,986 --> 00:31:45,238 to try and solve Bitcoin's privacy problem. 756 00:31:45,321 --> 00:31:47,824 They hired a young kid as their lead programmer. 757 00:31:47,866 --> 00:31:49,784 His name was Peter Todd. 758 00:31:49,826 --> 00:31:52,328 Peter Todd was living with us. 759 00:31:52,412 --> 00:31:54,664 You know, that's how I got to know him. 760 00:31:54,706 --> 00:31:58,835 We put Peter Todd as the chief scientist of our project 761 00:31:58,877 --> 00:32:01,254 to put him in opposition to Gavin Andresen. 762 00:32:01,338 --> 00:32:02,297 โ™ชโ™ช 763 00:32:02,380 --> 00:32:05,008 You know, we're sitting in a freezing cold room 764 00:32:05,091 --> 00:32:07,844 because it's an abandoned building with no heat. 765 00:32:07,886 --> 00:32:09,637 And it's very unique. 766 00:32:09,721 --> 00:32:10,930 But, equally though, 767 00:32:11,056 --> 00:32:13,641 you get people who know what they're talking about. 768 00:32:13,683 --> 00:32:17,062 You need to give people space to actually work on these issues. 769 00:32:17,145 --> 00:32:20,148 -(birds chirping) -(intriguing music playing) 770 00:32:20,190 --> 00:32:21,941 Hoback: Nine years later, 771 00:32:22,025 --> 00:32:24,235 Peter was still trying to solve these issues. 772 00:32:25,070 --> 00:32:27,489 Peter Todd: There's a lot of people who would like to see cash go away 773 00:32:27,530 --> 00:32:30,367 and like see your ability to transact anonymously disappear. 774 00:32:30,450 --> 00:32:33,328 I mean, this, this is a very dangerous thing. 775 00:32:35,205 --> 00:32:37,749 This needs to be treated as a human rights issue. 776 00:32:37,832 --> 00:32:39,334 Hoback: How'd you get into caving? 777 00:32:39,417 --> 00:32:41,628 Todd: There was something called the Toronto Caving Group. 778 00:32:42,253 --> 00:32:45,006 Didn't really pick the best place to live for good caves. 779 00:32:47,217 --> 00:32:49,427 Here, you can actually see, uh, 780 00:32:49,511 --> 00:32:52,555 stalactites and stalagmites sort of forming a column. 781 00:32:52,597 --> 00:32:56,267 So, you know this thing hasn't moved for probably 30, 40 years. 782 00:32:56,351 --> 00:32:57,894 It's unlikely it'll collapse on our heads, 783 00:32:57,977 --> 00:32:59,938 but one day, it will. (sighs) 784 00:33:00,021 --> 00:33:01,356 Hoback: Tell me about your endeavors 785 00:33:01,439 --> 00:33:03,858 to try to make a digital currency yourself. 786 00:33:03,942 --> 00:33:05,985 Well, you know, 787 00:33:06,069 --> 00:33:08,238 in, like, the mid-2000s, 788 00:33:08,321 --> 00:33:11,199 I was off getting a fine arts degree. 789 00:33:11,825 --> 00:33:15,954 Started working halftime, like, 2007, full-time in 2008, 790 00:33:16,037 --> 00:33:18,873 and I finally kinda finished it in sort of 2009, 791 00:33:18,957 --> 00:33:20,750 and then went on to start doing physics. 792 00:33:21,084 --> 00:33:25,005 Hoback: So, have people suspected you of being Satoshi at any point? 793 00:33:25,088 --> 00:33:27,716 (Peter Todd speaking) 794 00:33:29,300 --> 00:33:31,261 Hoback: Why do they, uh, think you're behind it? 795 00:33:32,137 --> 00:33:35,724 (Todd speaking) 796 00:33:36,725 --> 00:33:38,518 Hoback: It was back in 2001, 797 00:33:38,601 --> 00:33:40,937 when Peter Todd, a self-taught coder, 798 00:33:40,979 --> 00:33:43,606 first contacted Adam Back. 799 00:33:43,648 --> 00:33:45,608 He was only 15 at the time, 800 00:33:45,692 --> 00:33:47,444 and, like some sort of savant, 801 00:33:47,527 --> 00:33:50,655 he already had a deep understanding of digital cash. 802 00:33:51,489 --> 00:33:53,783 You almost learned how to code before you learned how to read. 803 00:33:53,825 --> 00:33:54,784 Yep. 804 00:33:54,868 --> 00:33:56,286 That's wild. 805 00:33:56,327 --> 00:33:58,455 The logic of coding seemed pretty obvious to me. 806 00:33:58,538 --> 00:34:01,332 Were you just interested in those issues in high school? 807 00:34:01,416 --> 00:34:04,085 Todd: I happened to be a young libertarian, 808 00:34:05,211 --> 00:34:07,339 and it was pretty obvious to me that 809 00:34:07,422 --> 00:34:10,467 control of money is a very big problem 810 00:34:10,550 --> 00:34:11,634 for freedom of speech. 811 00:34:11,676 --> 00:34:15,513 We should find a way to have decentralized banking. 812 00:34:16,222 --> 00:34:17,849 Hoback: Over the years, Peter became 813 00:34:17,932 --> 00:34:20,310 an increasingly controversial figure. 814 00:34:20,393 --> 00:34:23,271 The war on cash is the thing that has to be stopped. 815 00:34:23,313 --> 00:34:25,273 And, frankly, everyone in this audience, 816 00:34:25,315 --> 00:34:28,234 if you don't use cash to go pay regularly, 817 00:34:28,318 --> 00:34:30,862 I don't, I don't respect you as a Bitcoiner. 818 00:34:30,945 --> 00:34:32,155 Like, that's just a fact. 819 00:34:32,238 --> 00:34:34,324 If you're using credit every single day, fuck you. 820 00:34:34,366 --> 00:34:36,368 (applause) 821 00:34:36,451 --> 00:34:39,454 Hoback: Let's just say his takes weren't always appreciated. 822 00:34:39,496 --> 00:34:41,456 Todd: One day, Bitcoin will go to zero. 823 00:34:41,498 --> 00:34:42,957 You know, it will eventually fail, 824 00:34:42,999 --> 00:34:44,167 like everything else. 825 00:34:44,209 --> 00:34:46,211 Peter will always try to disagree with you. 826 00:34:46,294 --> 00:34:49,339 He's the contrarian of contrarians. 827 00:34:49,381 --> 00:34:51,466 Todd: You know, the people who really know... 828 00:34:52,050 --> 00:34:53,927 know how this stuff works, I think realize 829 00:34:54,010 --> 00:34:56,304 that anyone competent enough to go do Bitcoin 830 00:34:56,346 --> 00:34:58,932 probably would be competent enough to not leave any traces. 831 00:34:59,516 --> 00:35:02,602 Hoback: I mean, Satoshi left a lot of digital history. 832 00:35:02,686 --> 00:35:05,605 Todd: Yeah, but digital history doesn't mean much, you know? 833 00:35:05,689 --> 00:35:08,692 Doesn't necessarily give you any insight into who they were. 834 00:35:08,775 --> 00:35:10,360 โ™ชโ™ช 835 00:35:10,402 --> 00:35:12,195 Remember, things that look like mistakes 836 00:35:12,278 --> 00:35:14,030 can be intentionally misleading. 837 00:35:14,864 --> 00:35:17,951 If I were Satoshi, I would have destroyed my ability 838 00:35:18,034 --> 00:35:20,120 to go prove I was Satoshi. 839 00:35:20,203 --> 00:35:22,414 Because then, you'd never be tempted. 840 00:35:25,542 --> 00:35:27,794 Hoback: But, uh, you're-you're not Satoshi? 841 00:35:28,628 --> 00:35:29,629 Oh, no, I am Satoshi. 842 00:35:29,713 --> 00:35:31,464 -I'm Satoshi Nakamoto. -(Hoback laughs) 843 00:35:31,548 --> 00:35:33,758 -Hoback: Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're all Satoshi. -Todd: Yep. 844 00:35:36,177 --> 00:35:39,431 (intriguing music playing) 845 00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:45,395 -(church bell ringing) -Todd: It's a monkey, I guess. 846 00:35:45,937 --> 00:35:48,440 -Back: Yep. -Could be better. 847 00:35:49,941 --> 00:35:51,526 Hoback: How'd you guys meet? 848 00:35:51,609 --> 00:35:52,652 Online first. 849 00:35:52,736 --> 00:35:56,531 I got more actively interested in Bitcoin in 2013. 850 00:35:56,573 --> 00:35:59,242 Had the feeling that I don't understand how this works. 851 00:35:59,325 --> 00:36:00,410 There are people developing it, 852 00:36:00,452 --> 00:36:01,786 maybe I can find out where they hang out. 853 00:36:01,953 --> 00:36:04,247 Hoback: So, still trying to understand how Bitcoin works, 854 00:36:04,330 --> 00:36:05,582 Adam heads over to the forum 855 00:36:05,665 --> 00:36:08,877 and, for the first time ever, makes some posts. 856 00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:10,086 A lot of posts. 857 00:36:10,170 --> 00:36:12,380 Trying to prove his relevance 858 00:36:12,422 --> 00:36:14,674 and his apparent ignorance. 859 00:36:15,216 --> 00:36:17,677 I was a guy who had a fine arts degree. 860 00:36:17,761 --> 00:36:20,555 Yet, you know, I still understood the system better than he did. 861 00:36:20,597 --> 00:36:23,266 Hoback: So, to clear things up, Adam started a thread, 862 00:36:23,350 --> 00:36:25,602 "Who is this annoying Adam Back guy?" 863 00:36:25,643 --> 00:36:27,687 Of course, the Bitcoiners knew who he was. 864 00:36:27,771 --> 00:36:30,273 I knew who you were. I knew you invented Hashcash. 865 00:36:30,315 --> 00:36:31,983 And here you pop up, and you were clueless. 866 00:36:32,067 --> 00:36:35,612 Hoback: And they just thought he was, well, pretending. 867 00:36:35,653 --> 00:36:37,572 Best evidence of him being Satoshi. 868 00:36:37,614 --> 00:36:39,741 -Back: Of not being Satoshi. -Todd: Being Satoshi. 869 00:36:39,783 --> 00:36:41,951 -Uh-- -Only Satoshi would go to such great lengths 870 00:36:41,993 --> 00:36:44,162 to go and make sure no one thought they were Satoshi. 871 00:36:44,245 --> 00:36:46,331 By the way, everyone's Satoshi. 872 00:36:46,414 --> 00:36:49,292 Yeah, except for me. I'm not Satoshi. (laughs) 873 00:36:49,376 --> 00:36:51,795 Hoback: But the most suspicious thing 874 00:36:51,878 --> 00:36:54,297 was the timing of his appearance on the forums. 875 00:36:54,381 --> 00:36:56,383 The same day Adam registered, 876 00:36:56,466 --> 00:37:00,303 a researcher discovered a bug in Bitcoin's code. 877 00:37:00,345 --> 00:37:03,139 It enabled them to see how much Satoshi had mined. 878 00:37:03,223 --> 00:37:06,059 -About a million Bitcoin. -(whooshing) 879 00:37:06,142 --> 00:37:08,186 Adam seemed concerned, writing, 880 00:37:08,269 --> 00:37:10,814 "Perhaps we're forced to protect him." 881 00:37:10,855 --> 00:37:11,981 And he had a plan. 882 00:37:12,065 --> 00:37:14,651 And I had a potential way to improve Bitcoin's privacy... 883 00:37:14,734 --> 00:37:18,446 Hoback: He wanted to make Bitcoin truly anonymous. 884 00:37:18,488 --> 00:37:22,075 Which would also mean Satoshi could spend their stash 885 00:37:22,158 --> 00:37:23,410 without anyone knowing. 886 00:37:23,493 --> 00:37:24,994 Back: So, I talked to developers 887 00:37:25,078 --> 00:37:27,706 about how do-- how do you achieve this. 888 00:37:27,997 --> 00:37:30,333 Hoback: And Adam's coming-out party on the forums 889 00:37:30,375 --> 00:37:32,544 positioned him so that within a year, 890 00:37:32,627 --> 00:37:34,504 he could start Blockstream. 891 00:37:34,587 --> 00:37:35,839 Because Bitcoin's problems, 892 00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:37,924 they just couldn't be solved in a squad, 893 00:37:38,008 --> 00:37:40,510 like what Peter and Amir had attempted a year earlier. 894 00:37:40,593 --> 00:37:42,178 It required serious funding. 895 00:37:42,220 --> 00:37:43,805 Back: It's a big undertaking. 896 00:37:43,847 --> 00:37:44,639 So, it'd need a company, 897 00:37:44,681 --> 00:37:46,016 it needs to employ lots of people. 898 00:37:46,141 --> 00:37:49,019 Hoback: Blockstream could do what Satoshi couldn't. 899 00:37:49,102 --> 00:37:50,895 Raise money, build a huge team, 900 00:37:50,979 --> 00:37:54,024 and solve Bitcoin's technical problems. 901 00:37:54,107 --> 00:37:56,943 You could say Blockstream is a kind of corporate Satoshi? 902 00:37:57,027 --> 00:38:01,031 -Mm-hmm. -Like, how did he become the head of the company 903 00:38:01,114 --> 00:38:03,199 that became the stewards of Bitcoin? 904 00:38:03,241 --> 00:38:04,534 Uh, it's a good question. 905 00:38:04,617 --> 00:38:08,288 He kind of, uh, shows up and very quickly 906 00:38:08,371 --> 00:38:10,874 becomes integrated into the Bitcoin community. 907 00:38:10,915 --> 00:38:14,586 Hoback: Where he knew to pursue the right kind of talent. 908 00:38:14,669 --> 00:38:16,379 So, Adam, when you started Blockstream, 909 00:38:16,421 --> 00:38:18,048 did you try to get Peter on board? 910 00:38:18,089 --> 00:38:20,884 -Well, kinda intentionally not. -Yeah. 911 00:38:20,925 --> 00:38:23,345 We talked about saying it would actually be much better 912 00:38:23,386 --> 00:38:25,638 -if I didn't work for Blockstream. -Back: Mm-hmm. 913 00:38:25,722 --> 00:38:27,974 'Cause it's better if Blockstream doesn't have everyone. 914 00:38:28,058 --> 00:38:29,559 โ™ชโ™ช 915 00:38:29,642 --> 00:38:32,103 Hoback: While Peter Todd decided not to work at Blockstream, 916 00:38:32,187 --> 00:38:35,190 his friend Greg Maxwell did. 917 00:38:35,231 --> 00:38:36,399 We're building infrastructure 918 00:38:36,483 --> 00:38:37,901 that Bitcoin needs going forward. 919 00:38:37,984 --> 00:38:40,570 Hoback: In fact, Greg founded the company with Adam. 920 00:38:40,653 --> 00:38:42,822 O'Leary: People like Greg Maxwell, 921 00:38:42,906 --> 00:38:44,908 they were considered the, the thought leaders. 922 00:38:44,991 --> 00:38:47,369 Hoback: Greg doesn't do interviews anymore, right? 923 00:38:47,410 --> 00:38:51,456 Getting him to come out of his, uh, home is, uh... 924 00:38:51,915 --> 00:38:55,502 Hoback: ...seemingly off the table, with Greg writing to me, 925 00:38:55,752 --> 00:38:58,338 "I'm pretty exhausted from years of harassment 926 00:38:58,421 --> 00:39:00,256 "driven by conspiracy theories. 927 00:39:00,298 --> 00:39:02,550 I feel like I've given enough." 928 00:39:03,635 --> 00:39:06,429 So, do you think they were working with Satoshi? 929 00:39:06,471 --> 00:39:08,932 It was very mysterious. Uh, th-there is the question 930 00:39:08,973 --> 00:39:11,101 of whether Adam Back is Satoshi. 931 00:39:11,351 --> 00:39:12,769 Hoback: There's been a lot of debate 932 00:39:12,852 --> 00:39:16,398 over which of these cypherpunks is most likely to be Satoshi. 933 00:39:16,439 --> 00:39:19,317 Hal Finney received the first Bitcoin transaction, 934 00:39:19,401 --> 00:39:22,654 but he died of Lou Gehrig's disease in 2014. 935 00:39:23,071 --> 00:39:24,406 Well, sort of. 936 00:39:24,489 --> 00:39:25,907 His head is frozen. 937 00:39:25,949 --> 00:39:27,701 So, if he's Satoshi, 938 00:39:27,784 --> 00:39:29,619 you'd probably have to solve cryonics 939 00:39:29,703 --> 00:39:31,621 to get the key that's stored in his head. 940 00:39:31,663 --> 00:39:34,207 But, there were some problems with this theory. 941 00:39:34,290 --> 00:39:37,794 Satoshi's code bears zero resemblance to Hal Finney's. 942 00:39:37,836 --> 00:39:40,463 -(shutter snaps) -And Hal was photographed in a 10-mile race, 943 00:39:40,547 --> 00:39:43,758 while Satoshi was actively emailing with someone. 944 00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:47,679 In 2015, The New York Times pointed to Nick Szabo, 945 00:39:47,762 --> 00:39:49,973 a reclusive cypherpunk who envisioned something 946 00:39:50,015 --> 00:39:51,349 pretty similar to Bitcoin. 947 00:39:51,433 --> 00:39:53,935 Would you ever be open to, to doing, 948 00:39:54,019 --> 00:39:56,479 like, an interview on camera about all of that? 949 00:39:56,521 --> 00:39:57,856 The key piece of evidence, 950 00:39:57,939 --> 00:39:59,983 he changed the date of a blog entry, 951 00:40:00,025 --> 00:40:02,318 presumably so it would seem like he came up 952 00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:04,904 with this idea after Bitcoin. 953 00:40:05,447 --> 00:40:07,907 Thing is, he'd actually announced months earlier 954 00:40:07,991 --> 00:40:10,744 that he'd be doing reruns of his blog favorite entries, 955 00:40:10,827 --> 00:40:13,830 making this piece of evidence look a lot less suspicious. 956 00:40:13,872 --> 00:40:16,082 (speaking English) 957 00:40:17,542 --> 00:40:19,002 -(Hoback laughs) -(room chatter) 958 00:40:19,044 --> 00:40:22,005 Hoback: There's Wei Dai, who is a famous cryptographer. 959 00:40:22,047 --> 00:40:24,799 He claims there are no real photos of him on the internet. 960 00:40:24,841 --> 00:40:26,676 But, he did speculate that Satoshi 961 00:40:26,718 --> 00:40:28,845 must have been someone with energy and time 962 00:40:28,928 --> 00:40:31,973 that isn't obligated to publish papers under their real name. 963 00:40:32,015 --> 00:40:34,142 There's Len Sassaman, David Chaum, Dorian Nakamoto... 964 00:40:34,184 --> 00:40:37,187 -(names overlapping, echoing over each other) -(mouse clicking) 965 00:40:37,270 --> 00:40:38,772 The list goes on and on. 966 00:40:38,855 --> 00:40:40,607 I am Satoshi! 967 00:40:40,690 --> 00:40:41,566 Okay! 968 00:40:41,858 --> 00:40:44,903 The biggest critic of crypto is Satoshi himself. 969 00:40:45,528 --> 00:40:48,531 Hoback: And while we could pick apart each of these theories, 970 00:40:48,573 --> 00:40:50,617 the evidence pointing in Adam's direction 971 00:40:50,700 --> 00:40:52,702 was a lot harder to poke holes in. 972 00:40:52,744 --> 00:40:54,954 So, we're gonna focus on that. 973 00:40:55,038 --> 00:40:56,790 Though for a long time, people hadn't really 974 00:40:56,873 --> 00:40:59,376 considered him a suspect. And that's because 975 00:40:59,459 --> 00:41:01,294 he wasn't just cited in the white paper. 976 00:41:01,378 --> 00:41:04,964 He was the only person called out by name in the body of it. 977 00:41:05,048 --> 00:41:08,134 But, was Satoshi simply hiding in plain sight? 978 00:41:08,218 --> 00:41:10,470 -(arrow slams) -Back: I've never done it before, so... 979 00:41:10,553 --> 00:41:12,847 -Okay. It's 99%. -(laughs) It's just one-- Just this one hand, right? 980 00:41:12,931 --> 00:41:14,724 Hoback: You see, like Satoshi, 981 00:41:14,766 --> 00:41:16,601 he writes in a typically measured style 982 00:41:16,685 --> 00:41:18,103 with similar spelling choices. 983 00:41:19,688 --> 00:41:21,981 Now, Adam also claims that he didn't really get involved 984 00:41:22,065 --> 00:41:24,484 until four years after the launch of Bitcoin. 985 00:41:24,567 --> 00:41:26,695 In 2013, I felt like, you know, 986 00:41:26,778 --> 00:41:28,113 the embarrassing late guy, 987 00:41:28,196 --> 00:41:31,574 given that I should've known better at the beginning, right? 988 00:41:31,616 --> 00:41:32,992 (laughs) And, uh... 989 00:41:33,076 --> 00:41:34,369 Hoback: Thing is, 990 00:41:34,452 --> 00:41:35,745 back in 2011, 991 00:41:35,787 --> 00:41:37,706 you can see he was on a mailing list, 992 00:41:37,789 --> 00:41:39,791 openly defending Bitcoin, 993 00:41:39,874 --> 00:41:43,336 and sharing complex insights into Bitcoin's expansion. 994 00:41:43,420 --> 00:41:45,922 Weirder still, in 2012, 995 00:41:45,964 --> 00:41:49,217 he began making revisions to Bitcoin's Wikipedia page, 996 00:41:50,218 --> 00:41:53,388 eventually restoring the section about Satoshi... 997 00:41:54,305 --> 00:41:57,308 Just, like, tried to right a slight historical wrong there. 998 00:41:57,392 --> 00:42:00,603 -Hoback: ...even adding possible suspects. -(shoots) 999 00:42:00,645 --> 00:42:03,148 Just leaving out his own name. 1000 00:42:05,191 --> 00:42:06,234 (shoots arrow) 1001 00:42:07,444 --> 00:42:09,654 How much is Satoshi worth these days? 1002 00:42:09,738 --> 00:42:12,741 I don't know. Um, I mean, even the number of coins 1003 00:42:12,824 --> 00:42:14,784 that he might have is a bit speculative. 1004 00:42:14,868 --> 00:42:17,495 If they had a million coins, 1005 00:42:17,579 --> 00:42:19,539 whoever Satoshi is would technically have 1006 00:42:19,622 --> 00:42:22,667 a huge amount of influence if it becomes the, 1007 00:42:22,751 --> 00:42:24,961 -the new global currency, right? -Back: Right. 1008 00:42:25,003 --> 00:42:26,921 Hoback: That would mean that whoever Satoshi is 1009 00:42:27,005 --> 00:42:30,216 might be one of the most powerful people in the world. 1010 00:42:33,303 --> 00:42:34,846 โ™ชโ™ช 1011 00:42:34,929 --> 00:42:36,681 Even the slightest suggestion 1012 00:42:36,765 --> 00:42:38,767 that Satoshi had access to their coins 1013 00:42:38,850 --> 00:42:41,061 had the power to tumble markets. 1014 00:42:42,645 --> 00:42:45,815 Market fear has begun to overtake rationality. 1015 00:42:45,899 --> 00:42:48,651 Hoback: But selling a million coins all at once? 1016 00:42:48,693 --> 00:42:50,695 If these coins were dumped... 1017 00:42:50,779 --> 00:42:53,239 Hoback: That could kill Bitcoin. 1018 00:42:53,323 --> 00:42:55,784 -(zaps) -And as the stakes grew, 1019 00:42:55,825 --> 00:42:58,828 it kinda mattered if Satoshi still had access. 1020 00:42:58,870 --> 00:43:00,747 If you were Satoshi, where would you store 1021 00:43:00,830 --> 00:43:02,624 your private key to the, uh, trove? 1022 00:43:02,665 --> 00:43:05,001 I don't know. That's a lot of bitcoins, isn't it? 1023 00:43:05,085 --> 00:43:05,960 (Hoback laughs) 1024 00:43:06,419 --> 00:43:09,297 Hoback: What do you think Satoshi might've done with that key? 1025 00:43:09,339 --> 00:43:11,257 I don't know. I mean, 1026 00:43:11,341 --> 00:43:14,844 some people speculate that he might've deleted them. 1027 00:43:14,886 --> 00:43:17,222 But, of course, we don't know-- we wouldn't know, right? 1028 00:43:17,681 --> 00:43:19,599 Hoback: But, we could've known. 1029 00:43:19,683 --> 00:43:20,975 You see, there's a way 1030 00:43:21,059 --> 00:43:23,728 to verifiably destroy your bitcoins. 1031 00:43:23,812 --> 00:43:25,855 It's called burning the coins, 1032 00:43:25,897 --> 00:43:28,692 and it's done in a public way for all to see... 1033 00:43:28,733 --> 00:43:31,319 -(bursting) -...on the blockchain. 1034 00:43:31,403 --> 00:43:33,488 โ™ชโ™ช 1035 00:43:33,530 --> 00:43:35,031 Bitcoiner: You could burn all the coins 1036 00:43:35,073 --> 00:43:38,368 because that would remove the small uncertainty that exists. 1037 00:43:38,410 --> 00:43:41,287 -Hoback: But, Satoshi didn't do this. -(whooshing) 1038 00:43:41,371 --> 00:43:44,708 Meaning they very well might still have access. 1039 00:43:46,001 --> 00:43:48,044 If they kept that stuff, there'd be a lot of temptation 1040 00:43:48,086 --> 00:43:49,254 to spend some of it. 1041 00:43:49,754 --> 00:43:51,256 Hoback: So, Satoshi had to weigh the temptation 1042 00:43:51,339 --> 00:43:53,550 of becoming the richest person on Earth 1043 00:43:53,633 --> 00:43:55,010 against the possibility 1044 00:43:55,093 --> 00:43:57,303 that it would derail their invention. 1045 00:43:59,889 --> 00:44:02,809 Do you think it'll ever be known who Satoshi is? 1046 00:44:02,892 --> 00:44:04,185 Back: I don't think so, no. 1047 00:44:04,227 --> 00:44:05,937 I mean, just-just because all of the people 1048 00:44:06,021 --> 00:44:08,857 that have been identified 1049 00:44:08,940 --> 00:44:11,234 have various reasons, believable reasons, 1050 00:44:11,276 --> 00:44:12,944 why it's probably not them. 1051 00:44:13,028 --> 00:44:14,446 And you know what the list is, right? 1052 00:44:14,529 --> 00:44:17,365 -It's been circulated a million times. -Right. Right. 1053 00:44:18,533 --> 00:44:20,285 Hoback: Wei Dai is on the list. 1054 00:44:20,744 --> 00:44:24,289 Um, Nick Szabo is on the list. Hal Finney. 1055 00:44:24,372 --> 00:44:26,041 You're on the list. And then, 1056 00:44:26,124 --> 00:44:29,419 maybe mysterious... mysterious other person. 1057 00:44:29,461 --> 00:44:31,963 -Right. -Um... 1058 00:44:32,922 --> 00:44:34,758 Well, I thought you might think I'm Satoshi, 1059 00:44:34,799 --> 00:44:37,594 and I don't want that to be on the record, really. 1060 00:44:37,677 --> 00:44:39,137 (both laugh) 1061 00:44:39,220 --> 00:44:41,598 -I mean, you're on the list of suspects, right? -Yeah, yeah, 1062 00:44:41,639 --> 00:44:42,932 but, uh, you know, 1063 00:44:43,016 --> 00:44:44,934 I was interested for you, personally, to understand 1064 00:44:45,018 --> 00:44:48,271 that really-really, I'm not, you know? Yeah. 1065 00:44:50,815 --> 00:44:52,942 -(breeze blowing) -(birds chirping) 1066 00:44:53,026 --> 00:44:55,111 Hoback: It seemed to me that, at a minimum, 1067 00:44:55,195 --> 00:44:57,947 Adam was more involved than he was letting on. 1068 00:44:57,989 --> 00:45:01,242 (intriguing music playing) 1069 00:45:03,328 --> 00:45:06,081 Meanwhile, Blockstream's Bitcoin ambassador 1070 00:45:06,164 --> 00:45:09,209 was trying to make Bitcoin the new global standard. 1071 00:45:09,292 --> 00:45:11,795 Mow: This is a pivotal time with Bitcoin, 1072 00:45:11,836 --> 00:45:13,254 and we have to push the advantage we have now. 1073 00:45:13,296 --> 00:45:16,675 I have an in in Korea, but if you wanna do Vietnam... 1074 00:45:16,758 --> 00:45:17,842 Michelle Phan: Wow... Yeah! 1075 00:45:18,051 --> 00:45:20,136 -Fist bump... I'm down. -Are you down? Okay! 1076 00:45:20,220 --> 00:45:21,179 Alright, I'm down, too. 1077 00:45:21,429 --> 00:45:23,723 Hoback: Samson's young new ally just happened to be 1078 00:45:23,807 --> 00:45:26,142 one of YouTube's biggest beauty influencers. 1079 00:45:26,184 --> 00:45:29,145 Now, she was advising on more than just makeup. 1080 00:45:29,229 --> 00:45:31,731 With Bitcoin, you can buy it in smaller units. 1081 00:45:31,815 --> 00:45:35,735 There's 100 million satoshis in one bitcoin. 1082 00:45:35,819 --> 00:45:37,779 Nothing ever infinitely goes up, 1083 00:45:37,821 --> 00:45:38,947 but Bitcoin will. 1084 00:45:39,197 --> 00:45:40,949 I feel like California should become its own country 1085 00:45:41,032 --> 00:45:42,575 and adopt Bitcoin. In my humble opinion. 1086 00:45:42,659 --> 00:45:45,328 It's like, what, the fourth largest GDP right, in the world? 1087 00:45:45,370 --> 00:45:46,371 Yeah. 1088 00:45:46,454 --> 00:45:48,331 Hoback: They were headed to a political function 1089 00:45:48,373 --> 00:45:49,374 for Andrew Yang... 1090 00:45:49,457 --> 00:45:50,583 Andrew Yang: I'm Andrew Yang, 1091 00:45:50,667 --> 00:45:53,461 and I'm running for president as a Democrat in 2020. 1092 00:45:53,837 --> 00:45:56,715 Hoback: ...who kinda brought the idea of universal basic income 1093 00:45:56,798 --> 00:45:58,299 into the mainstream. 1094 00:45:58,383 --> 00:46:01,511 -So, we gotta talk to Andrew about UBI. Your UBI! -Yeah. 1095 00:46:01,594 --> 00:46:04,514 Yes, the universal Bitcoin income. 1096 00:46:04,597 --> 00:46:07,017 Not universal basic income. We don't want basic shit. 1097 00:46:07,058 --> 00:46:08,518 -We want Bitcoin. -Yeah, we're not basic. 1098 00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:10,228 Thank you. Okay, here we are. 1099 00:46:10,311 --> 00:46:12,856 Hoback: So, these two, they're what's known as 1100 00:46:12,897 --> 00:46:15,942 Bitcoin maximalists, or Maxi for short. 1101 00:46:16,026 --> 00:46:18,278 I'm a proud Bitcoin Maxi now. 1102 00:46:18,361 --> 00:46:19,404 I'm toxic as fuck. 1103 00:46:19,487 --> 00:46:21,364 -(thunder cracks) -Hoback: Does their profile pic 1104 00:46:21,448 --> 00:46:23,450 have lasers coming out of their eyes? 1105 00:46:23,533 --> 00:46:24,784 Usually means they're a Maxi. 1106 00:46:24,868 --> 00:46:27,537 It was a system of monetary belief. 1107 00:46:27,620 --> 00:46:29,289 Welcome to the new religion. 1108 00:46:29,372 --> 00:46:32,834 Hoback: Faith that Bitcoin could fix all the problems in the world. 1109 00:46:32,917 --> 00:46:34,210 Bitcoin fixes everything! 1110 00:46:34,294 --> 00:46:36,755 Hoback: And that the US dollar was on its way out. 1111 00:46:36,838 --> 00:46:38,256 Okay, here's a $10 bill. 1112 00:46:38,340 --> 00:46:41,051 -This is garbage. This is garbage. -(ripping) 1113 00:46:41,134 --> 00:46:43,511 Hoback: Which could be pretty fucking annoying. 1114 00:46:43,553 --> 00:46:47,140 But, ultimately, their goal was to orange pill the world. 1115 00:46:47,223 --> 00:46:49,601 Phan: We're gonna try and orange pill him. 1116 00:46:49,684 --> 00:46:51,227 Yang: Oh my gosh! Hey, Michelle! 1117 00:46:51,311 --> 00:46:54,064 We have a real life Asian-American supermodel and activist. 1118 00:46:54,105 --> 00:46:56,608 Hoback: Their tactics could be pretty shameless. 1119 00:46:56,691 --> 00:46:58,485 -Andrew, nice to meet you. -Oh, nice to meet you, too. 1120 00:46:58,568 --> 00:47:00,362 This guy's changing the world. I want you to meet him. 1121 00:47:00,403 --> 00:47:02,072 I think he's really important for you to talk to. 1122 00:47:02,155 --> 00:47:03,698 Oh, no, I'm super pumped about this. See this magic? 1123 00:47:03,740 --> 00:47:07,035 You see this magic in real time? You wanna say a couple words? 1124 00:47:07,118 --> 00:47:10,830 Bitcoin is the most important crypto out there. 1125 00:47:12,248 --> 00:47:13,875 Yang: Holy cow! 1126 00:47:31,393 --> 00:47:33,937 -Let's talk, uh, more deeply. -Mow: Yeah! 1127 00:47:33,978 --> 00:47:36,481 What's your info? What's the best way to be in touch? 1128 00:47:36,564 --> 00:47:40,193 Many of these utopian movements start by a bunch of idealists. 1129 00:47:40,276 --> 00:47:42,862 But then, they're captured by a bunch of greedy people, 1130 00:47:42,946 --> 00:47:44,280 they become a cult, 1131 00:47:44,322 --> 00:47:46,700 and the people and the system becomes like a religion. 1132 00:47:46,783 --> 00:47:47,909 They become fanatic. 1133 00:47:47,992 --> 00:47:49,911 And then, all these utopias, in due time, 1134 00:47:49,994 --> 00:47:52,872 they just disappear in the dustbin of history. 1135 00:47:52,956 --> 00:47:54,833 And that's what's gonna happen with crypto. 1136 00:47:54,916 --> 00:47:56,001 โ™ชโ™ช 1137 00:47:56,167 --> 00:47:58,962 Hoback: Samson thought he could use his own right hand. 1138 00:47:59,004 --> 00:48:00,630 Someone with connections. 1139 00:48:01,172 --> 00:48:03,800 Enter the Prince of Serbia. 1140 00:48:04,342 --> 00:48:06,094 Prince Philip: 2020, that's when it really clicked. 1141 00:48:06,177 --> 00:48:09,180 There are synergies between Bitcoin and monarchies. 1142 00:48:09,264 --> 00:48:11,057 -I'm a Maxi now. -(laughter, indistinct chatter) 1143 00:48:11,141 --> 00:48:12,642 That's my great-grandfather. 1144 00:48:12,684 --> 00:48:14,185 This is my great- great-grandfather. 1145 00:48:14,269 --> 00:48:16,980 Hoback: I see. When do you get your painting in here? 1146 00:48:17,022 --> 00:48:18,815 -Who knows? -(laughter) 1147 00:48:18,857 --> 00:48:20,233 He has the perfect skill set 1148 00:48:20,316 --> 00:48:23,820 to contact, uh, diplomats, presidents. 1149 00:48:23,903 --> 00:48:25,572 There's a lot of big family network 1150 00:48:25,655 --> 00:48:28,116 to-to-to work through. That opens a lot of doors. 1151 00:48:28,158 --> 00:48:29,659 Hoback: Not that long ago, 1152 00:48:29,701 --> 00:48:32,746 Montenegro and Serbia used to be part of the same country. 1153 00:48:32,829 --> 00:48:35,999 And Prince Philip's family still had a lot of influence. 1154 00:48:36,041 --> 00:48:37,959 Prince Philip: Prime Minister Spaji. 1155 00:48:38,001 --> 00:48:40,128 In terms of where he's at with Bitcoin, 1156 00:48:40,170 --> 00:48:42,005 could be the start of a good relationship with him 1157 00:48:42,088 --> 00:48:44,090 to get things moving in this country. 1158 00:48:45,300 --> 00:48:48,053 I'm a big fan of Bitcoin, obviously, 1159 00:48:48,136 --> 00:48:50,847 and of the technology that Bitcoin brought. 1160 00:48:50,930 --> 00:48:53,016 Politically, it's, it's a difficult sell. 1161 00:48:53,099 --> 00:48:55,018 You have to think about all kinds of risks. 1162 00:48:55,101 --> 00:48:58,188 I think the government shouldn't invest in Bitcoin. 1163 00:48:58,271 --> 00:48:59,898 If you're risk-averse, you think the government 1164 00:48:59,981 --> 00:49:01,566 should not hold it. That's fine. 1165 00:49:01,649 --> 00:49:04,736 But, in the event that fiat currencies collapse, 1166 00:49:04,819 --> 00:49:07,280 everyone will rush into Bitcoin. So, what we're trying to do 1167 00:49:07,364 --> 00:49:09,240 is get parallel systems in place. 1168 00:49:09,324 --> 00:49:12,035 Dollars, Bitcoin, pesos, Bitcoin, yen, Bitcoin. 1169 00:49:12,118 --> 00:49:13,661 We don't have our own currency. 1170 00:49:13,703 --> 00:49:17,540 We're using euros without being able to print euros. 1171 00:49:17,624 --> 00:49:20,043 And that's not fair. You know, that's not cool. 1172 00:49:20,085 --> 00:49:22,212 Maybe something to consider 1173 00:49:22,253 --> 00:49:24,881 is adopting Bitcoin as simply money. 1174 00:49:24,923 --> 00:49:26,466 You don't need to tax anybody. 1175 00:49:26,549 --> 00:49:28,259 -You can just mine Bitcoin... -Prince Philip: Yes. 1176 00:49:28,343 --> 00:49:29,844 ...and that will fund everything. 1177 00:49:29,928 --> 00:49:32,430 The electricity is relatively cheap. 1178 00:49:32,514 --> 00:49:34,057 It's usually the smaller countries 1179 00:49:34,140 --> 00:49:37,477 that are more agile and willing to embrace change 1180 00:49:37,560 --> 00:49:39,771 'cause they're looking for some advantage. 1181 00:49:40,605 --> 00:49:41,898 I think it's a good idea. 1182 00:49:41,981 --> 00:49:44,776 You can really be a beacon in Europe right now. 1183 00:49:44,859 --> 00:49:47,070 Concretely, how do we do this? 1184 00:49:47,153 --> 00:49:50,073 Mow: We had a really good talk about Bitcoin adoption 1185 00:49:50,156 --> 00:49:53,618 and what they can do. And they also, like Costa Rica, 1186 00:49:53,702 --> 00:49:55,370 have a lot of hydropower, 1187 00:49:55,412 --> 00:49:59,249 -so we're making progress everywhere. -(breaking up phone reply) 1188 00:49:59,290 --> 00:50:02,293 Hoback: How did something with such anarchistic roots 1189 00:50:02,377 --> 00:50:05,422 end up being mined by countries? 1190 00:50:05,505 --> 00:50:08,675 narrator 1: It all started in 1849. 1191 00:50:08,758 --> 00:50:10,677 There was gold in California. 1192 00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:11,761 Hoback: In the beginning, 1193 00:50:11,845 --> 00:50:13,346 if you wanted to do Bitcoin mining, 1194 00:50:13,430 --> 00:50:14,931 your home computer was good enough. 1195 00:50:15,015 --> 00:50:16,725 Which is how Satoshi racked up 1196 00:50:16,766 --> 00:50:20,186 -what appears to be over a million Bitcoin. -(swirling) 1197 00:50:20,270 --> 00:50:21,938 But, once Bitcoin had value... 1198 00:50:22,022 --> 00:50:23,231 narrator 1: Within a short time, 1199 00:50:23,398 --> 00:50:26,484 all had caught the fever that only gold would quench. 1200 00:50:26,568 --> 00:50:28,194 Hoback: ...people created specialized mining rigs 1201 00:50:28,278 --> 00:50:29,446 to increase their chances of winning. 1202 00:50:29,529 --> 00:50:31,531 narrator 1: Which made the job move faster. 1203 00:50:31,614 --> 00:50:33,450 Hoback: The more people who compete, the harder it gets. 1204 00:50:33,491 --> 00:50:35,410 narrator 1: As the gold became more difficult to find... 1205 00:50:35,493 --> 00:50:38,288 Hoback: Mining industrialized, becoming an arms race. 1206 00:50:38,329 --> 00:50:40,749 narrator 2: It was buckets, after buckets, after buckets. 1207 00:50:40,790 --> 00:50:43,835 Hoback: Looking for the cheapest energy, the fastest miners, 1208 00:50:43,918 --> 00:50:45,295 in search of the next golden ticket. 1209 00:50:45,378 --> 00:50:48,590 reporter: Bitcoin mines generated about $70,000 a day. 1210 00:50:48,631 --> 00:50:50,717 Hoback: And if you can't keep up, it stops being profitable. 1211 00:50:50,800 --> 00:50:53,303 narrator 1: As the gold gave out, people moved away. 1212 00:50:53,345 --> 00:50:54,804 Hoback: Until most of the players left in the game 1213 00:50:54,888 --> 00:50:57,974 are basically billionaires who own their own power plants, 1214 00:50:58,058 --> 00:51:00,852 or countries who own the power grid. 1215 00:51:00,935 --> 00:51:02,020 It's the grand unveiling. 1216 00:51:02,103 --> 00:51:04,314 I think there's a couple hundred in here. 1217 00:51:04,397 --> 00:51:05,523 It's a 40-foot container. 1218 00:51:05,690 --> 00:51:09,277 Hoback: Requiring about 0.5% of all the energy. 1219 00:51:09,319 --> 00:51:12,906 And it requires increasing amounts of energy consumption 1220 00:51:12,989 --> 00:51:14,866 as more miners compete. 1221 00:51:14,949 --> 00:51:17,494 Hoback: And while you might think that's pretty terrible... 1222 00:51:17,535 --> 00:51:19,579 -(fire crackling) -...compounding a climate catastrophe, 1223 00:51:19,662 --> 00:51:22,207 if you've ever heard of petrodollars, 1224 00:51:22,290 --> 00:51:23,833 that's because Nixon ditched the gold standard 1225 00:51:23,875 --> 00:51:26,670 and intertwined the US dollar with the oil trade. 1226 00:51:26,711 --> 00:51:28,505 The effect of this action, in other words, 1227 00:51:28,546 --> 00:51:31,508 will be to stabilize the dollar. 1228 00:51:31,549 --> 00:51:33,426 Hoback: Which helped solidify the dollar's status 1229 00:51:33,510 --> 00:51:35,345 as the global reserve currency, 1230 00:51:35,387 --> 00:51:38,014 but kinda kept us dependent on oil. 1231 00:51:38,056 --> 00:51:39,724 So, maybe it's just the nature of money 1232 00:51:39,808 --> 00:51:42,310 that it's based on things that people value. 1233 00:51:42,352 --> 00:51:45,230 Which is to say, a currency derived from electricity 1234 00:51:45,313 --> 00:51:47,357 might pose a real threat to the dollar 1235 00:51:47,440 --> 00:51:49,234 if it gained in popularity. 1236 00:51:49,317 --> 00:51:51,569 Assuming it actually worked. 1237 00:51:54,072 --> 00:51:55,865 โ™ชโ™ช 1238 00:51:55,949 --> 00:51:59,536 You see, Bitcoin's original design had a fatal flaw. 1239 00:51:59,619 --> 00:52:01,579 reporter 1: Well, computer giant Dell announcing today 1240 00:52:01,663 --> 00:52:04,290 -it will accept Bitcoin. -reporter 2: Sacramento Kings to accept Bitcoin. 1241 00:52:04,374 --> 00:52:07,335 Overstock is now accepting Bitcoin. 1242 00:52:07,377 --> 00:52:09,170 Hoback: If too many people started using Bitcoin, 1243 00:52:09,212 --> 00:52:11,131 it would stop working. 1244 00:52:12,090 --> 00:52:13,550 And that's because those blocks 1245 00:52:13,633 --> 00:52:16,094 that make up Bitcoin's record keeping system, 1246 00:52:16,803 --> 00:52:19,639 -they just can't hold very much information. -(whooshing) 1247 00:52:19,723 --> 00:52:21,349 They're small. And you have to wait 1248 00:52:21,391 --> 00:52:23,309 10 minutes before another block forms. 1249 00:52:24,310 --> 00:52:26,062 So, when Bitcoin got popular, 1250 00:52:26,104 --> 00:52:27,439 your transaction would be stuck 1251 00:52:27,522 --> 00:52:30,358 in line for hours, sometimes days. 1252 00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:32,861 And since money needs to work immediately, 1253 00:52:32,944 --> 00:52:34,696 this was a disaster. 1254 00:52:34,779 --> 00:52:36,531 Transaction times are incredibly high. 1255 00:52:36,573 --> 00:52:38,575 There's a lot of people questioning long-term sustainability. 1256 00:52:38,658 --> 00:52:41,286 Stripe is getting out of the Bitcoin business. 1257 00:52:41,369 --> 00:52:43,580 Hoback: So Gavin, who was still kind of 1258 00:52:43,663 --> 00:52:45,248 steering the Bitcoin ship, announced... 1259 00:52:45,331 --> 00:52:47,334 We'll definitely need to increase 1260 00:52:47,417 --> 00:52:48,793 the maximum block size. 1261 00:52:48,877 --> 00:52:52,088 -Hoback: In other words, make each block bigger. -(whirs) 1262 00:52:52,172 --> 00:52:54,424 More room for all the transactions. 1263 00:52:54,466 --> 00:52:56,092 But, not everyone agreed. 1264 00:52:56,134 --> 00:52:57,677 This is obviously a bad idea. 1265 00:52:57,761 --> 00:52:58,803 Oh, this is all bullshit. 1266 00:52:58,887 --> 00:53:01,222 These guys are bringing about the doom of Bitcoin. 1267 00:53:01,806 --> 00:53:05,435 Hoback: A disagreement which resulted in a massive nerd fight, 1268 00:53:06,227 --> 00:53:09,731 known as the Blocksize War. 1269 00:53:09,814 --> 00:53:12,776 So, why were they being so apocalyptic 1270 00:53:12,859 --> 00:53:15,612 about just adding more space to each Bitcoin block? 1271 00:53:15,695 --> 00:53:17,781 The nerds had some good reasons. 1272 00:53:17,864 --> 00:53:20,033 For instance, if you could change something 1273 00:53:20,116 --> 00:53:22,118 as fundamental as the block size, 1274 00:53:22,160 --> 00:53:24,788 could you also change the total supply 1275 00:53:24,871 --> 00:53:27,123 from 21 million to 100? 1276 00:53:27,165 --> 00:53:30,752 People might lose their faith in what makes Bitcoin Bitcoin. 1277 00:53:30,835 --> 00:53:32,754 Although, to make a change like this, 1278 00:53:32,796 --> 00:53:35,340 you have to get pretty much everyone on board. 1279 00:53:35,423 --> 00:53:38,259 -Otherwise, the community will split. -(horn blaring) 1280 00:53:38,301 --> 00:53:39,886 So, instead of changing Bitcoin, 1281 00:53:39,969 --> 00:53:43,431 the Small Blockers had a complex technical solution, 1282 00:53:43,473 --> 00:53:45,558 but it would take years. Meanwhile, 1283 00:53:45,642 --> 00:53:48,061 the Big Blockers wanted Bitcoin to work now, 1284 00:53:48,144 --> 00:53:49,646 not in some theoretical future. 1285 00:53:49,688 --> 00:53:52,357 Ver: Governments move slowly. We need to move quickly 1286 00:53:52,440 --> 00:53:53,775 and make this cash for the entire world 1287 00:53:53,817 --> 00:53:55,568 before the politicians even know what happened 1288 00:53:55,652 --> 00:53:57,654 and they have time to react via bigger blocks. 1289 00:53:57,696 --> 00:54:00,657 Hoback: The fight became vicious, with each side 1290 00:54:00,699 --> 00:54:03,243 accusing the other of trying to destroy Bitcoin. 1291 00:54:03,326 --> 00:54:06,287 Ver: I'm not exaggerating, this is a life and death matter. 1292 00:54:06,371 --> 00:54:09,833 More babies are dying in countries around the world 1293 00:54:09,874 --> 00:54:12,252 because they have less economic freedom. 1294 00:54:12,335 --> 00:54:14,004 Mow: He's not Bitcoin Jesus. 1295 00:54:14,045 --> 00:54:15,547 He's Bitcoin Judas. 1296 00:54:15,630 --> 00:54:16,840 (buzzer blares) 1297 00:54:16,923 --> 00:54:18,675 He's the one that's trying to kill Bitcoin. 1298 00:54:18,758 --> 00:54:20,343 Hoback: With Bitcoin essentially divided 1299 00:54:20,427 --> 00:54:22,303 between the church of small blocks 1300 00:54:22,345 --> 00:54:23,722 and the church and big blocks, 1301 00:54:23,805 --> 00:54:24,681 you might be wondering 1302 00:54:24,764 --> 00:54:26,307 where did Satoshi fall in all of this? 1303 00:54:26,349 --> 00:54:28,268 I think Satoshi handed the keys off to Gavin 1304 00:54:28,351 --> 00:54:30,520 because he viewed Gavin as a responsible steward 1305 00:54:30,603 --> 00:54:32,355 of the future of the project. 1306 00:54:32,397 --> 00:54:33,940 But, that doesn't mean you're the leader. 1307 00:54:34,024 --> 00:54:36,109 That just means you're the guy who answers questions. 1308 00:54:36,192 --> 00:54:38,153 Hoback: Well, it seemed Satoshi 1309 00:54:38,236 --> 00:54:40,822 was about to make their views known. 1310 00:54:41,573 --> 00:54:42,782 After years of silence, 1311 00:54:42,866 --> 00:54:45,702 Satoshi sends an email out to the mailing list 1312 00:54:47,037 --> 00:54:49,414 to share their concerns. 1313 00:54:49,664 --> 00:54:52,917 It's from the same address Satoshi used back in 2008. 1314 00:54:53,668 --> 00:54:56,129 The one to distribute the white paper. 1315 00:54:56,212 --> 00:54:58,256 His words were clear, harsh... 1316 00:54:58,631 --> 00:55:01,051 and firmly against Roger, Gavin, 1317 00:55:01,092 --> 00:55:02,635 and the big corporations. 1318 00:55:02,719 --> 00:55:05,138 There's a debate around whether or not 1319 00:55:05,221 --> 00:55:07,557 that was, like, legitimate. 1320 00:55:07,599 --> 00:55:10,769 But, whoever had access to Satoshi's email 1321 00:55:10,852 --> 00:55:13,438 was somewhat aligned with Blockstream, 1322 00:55:13,521 --> 00:55:15,940 with their angle on the scaling debate. 1323 00:55:16,024 --> 00:55:18,568 Hoback: While some question the email's authenticity, 1324 00:55:18,651 --> 00:55:22,405 it placed Satoshi squarely on Blockstream's side. 1325 00:55:23,531 --> 00:55:25,658 -(curious music playing) -(blade slicing) 1326 00:55:25,742 --> 00:55:28,953 And then, as if sent from digital heaven, 1327 00:55:29,371 --> 00:55:31,331 Satoshi appeared in the flesh. 1328 00:55:31,414 --> 00:55:33,625 He was apparently an Australian fellow... 1329 00:55:35,168 --> 00:55:37,796 named Craig Wright. 1330 00:55:37,879 --> 00:55:41,925 So, you're gonna show me that Satoshi Nakamoto is you? 1331 00:55:41,966 --> 00:55:43,802 โ™ชโ™ช 1332 00:55:43,885 --> 00:55:45,011 Yes. 1333 00:55:45,095 --> 00:55:47,013 I do think Craig is Satoshi. 1334 00:55:47,097 --> 00:55:48,348 I met with him in London. 1335 00:55:48,431 --> 00:55:51,476 Uh, he fits the kind of person 1336 00:55:51,559 --> 00:55:55,146 that I was interacting with way back in 2010, 1337 00:55:55,230 --> 00:55:59,317 and he provided some cryptographic proof. 1338 00:55:59,401 --> 00:56:01,403 Hoback: Miraculously, this Satoshi 1339 00:56:01,486 --> 00:56:03,571 was on Gavin and Roger's side. 1340 00:56:03,988 --> 00:56:05,615 At first, it seemed wonderful because, oh, 1341 00:56:05,657 --> 00:56:07,409 Satoshi's back, and he's a Big Blocker. 1342 00:56:07,492 --> 00:56:09,285 Raise the block size. 1343 00:56:09,327 --> 00:56:11,371 Very quickly, people figured out 1344 00:56:11,454 --> 00:56:13,039 this is obviously bullshit. 1345 00:56:13,123 --> 00:56:15,417 Hoback: It seems like he'd fake the evidence 1346 00:56:15,500 --> 00:56:18,128 by backdating his cryptographic proof. 1347 00:56:18,169 --> 00:56:19,963 Craig Wright is incredibly convincing. 1348 00:56:20,046 --> 00:56:22,549 For me, he's proved it 1349 00:56:22,632 --> 00:56:23,800 beyond a reasonable doubt. 1350 00:56:23,842 --> 00:56:25,510 But, if you dig deep enough, long enough, 1351 00:56:25,593 --> 00:56:27,470 the inconsistencies will emerge. 1352 00:56:27,554 --> 00:56:30,765 Yeah, I-I have to be careful about talking about that topic 1353 00:56:30,849 --> 00:56:33,351 because he, uh, sued me at some point. 1354 00:56:33,435 --> 00:56:34,769 -Hoback: Who did? -Craig. 1355 00:56:34,853 --> 00:56:36,062 -He sued-- -Hoback: For what? 1356 00:56:36,146 --> 00:56:37,564 For libel. He sued a lot of people. 1357 00:56:37,647 --> 00:56:39,858 Hoback: (laughs) Well, that's something to look forward to. 1358 00:56:39,941 --> 00:56:43,445 (slow music playing) 1359 00:56:43,486 --> 00:56:46,114 To me, Craig Wright was the death blow in the war. 1360 00:56:47,365 --> 00:56:50,785 "Death blow" is a strong word, but something close to that. 1361 00:56:52,454 --> 00:56:54,080 Thanks, Craig. (scoffs) 1362 00:56:55,206 --> 00:56:56,499 Todd: We got lucky. 1363 00:56:56,541 --> 00:56:58,209 The Blocksize War went the right way. 1364 00:56:58,293 --> 00:57:00,378 Hoback: The Blocksize War was over, 1365 00:57:00,462 --> 00:57:02,380 and the Small Blockers had won. 1366 00:57:03,089 --> 00:57:06,217 -(laughs) The victor writes history. -Mow: (laughs) Yeah. 1367 00:57:06,301 --> 00:57:08,678 O'Leary: They established themselves as 1368 00:57:08,720 --> 00:57:10,722 the ideological authority on Bitcoin. 1369 00:57:11,097 --> 00:57:14,559 Hoback: But, had Satoshi simply regained control? 1370 00:57:16,561 --> 00:57:18,605 It took the Small Blockers almost a decade 1371 00:57:18,688 --> 00:57:20,190 to make their plan work. 1372 00:57:20,273 --> 00:57:21,900 None of that Starbucks bullshit! 1373 00:57:21,983 --> 00:57:24,694 Hoback: You could buy coffee with Bitcoin, 1374 00:57:24,736 --> 00:57:27,238 which is why countries were now able to adopt it. 1375 00:57:27,322 --> 00:57:30,950 But, it required the support of companies like Blockstream. 1376 00:57:31,034 --> 00:57:33,745 -Cheers. You're not supposed to cheers coffee. -(cups clink) 1377 00:57:33,828 --> 00:57:35,538 Hoback: And these companies would take a small cut 1378 00:57:35,580 --> 00:57:38,708 out of every transaction. Meaning it ain't... 1379 00:57:38,750 --> 00:57:41,002 Back: Permissionless electronic cash for the internet. 1380 00:57:41,419 --> 00:57:45,256 Hoback: Which fueled theories that they had ulterior motives. 1381 00:57:45,674 --> 00:57:47,217 It's been delayed by at least a decade, if not more, 1382 00:57:47,300 --> 00:57:49,678 because of this, uh, block size limit that was imposed, 1383 00:57:49,719 --> 00:57:53,056 and probably covert government agents helping it along. 1384 00:57:53,139 --> 00:57:56,559 -Hoback: Yeah, so I guess we'll just go-- -Peter Todd. (laughs) 1385 00:57:56,643 --> 00:57:57,727 Sorry, what was that? 1386 00:57:57,769 --> 00:57:59,688 I said Peter Todd, for one. (laughs) 1387 00:58:00,438 --> 00:58:04,401 Hoback: Wait. Roger thought Peter Todd was working for the government? 1388 00:58:04,484 --> 00:58:05,694 (tense music playing) 1389 00:58:05,735 --> 00:58:07,779 Hoback: What-What indication did you have 1390 00:58:07,862 --> 00:58:09,447 that he was, 1391 00:58:09,531 --> 00:58:11,908 perhaps, collaborating with the government? 1392 00:58:11,991 --> 00:58:14,035 The things he was advocating that should happen with Bitcoin 1393 00:58:14,077 --> 00:58:16,413 were counterproductive to Bitcoin being usable 1394 00:58:16,454 --> 00:58:17,956 as cash and usable as money. 1395 00:58:18,039 --> 00:58:19,290 (typing) 1396 00:58:19,374 --> 00:58:20,583 Hoback: Prior to 2013, 1397 00:58:20,625 --> 00:58:22,502 pretty much all of Peter Todd's history 1398 00:58:22,585 --> 00:58:24,629 appears to be wiped from the internet. 1399 00:58:25,755 --> 00:58:27,841 I finally found his personal website. 1400 00:58:27,924 --> 00:58:29,592 2001... 1401 00:58:29,634 --> 00:58:30,927 Where, in high school, 1402 00:58:30,969 --> 00:58:33,430 when he was communicating with the cypherpunks, 1403 00:58:33,513 --> 00:58:34,931 he joked that in the event 1404 00:58:34,973 --> 00:58:37,600 he becomes an evil dictator who takes over the world, 1405 00:58:37,642 --> 00:58:39,894 he was screwed up from childhood. 1406 00:58:40,353 --> 00:58:42,689 His father was an economist, 1407 00:58:42,772 --> 00:58:44,941 and his mother taught him about encryption. 1408 00:58:44,983 --> 00:58:47,944 And while Peter Todd might have worked for... 1409 00:58:47,986 --> 00:58:49,779 A company manufacturing gyroscopes 1410 00:58:49,863 --> 00:58:52,157 for drones in the military. 1411 00:58:52,240 --> 00:58:56,036 Hoback: ...being in the CIA obviously wasn't on his resume. 1412 00:58:56,119 --> 00:58:59,581 Or whatever the fuck Canada's intelligence agency's called. 1413 00:58:59,622 --> 00:59:01,583 But, Roger brought up something suspicious. 1414 00:59:01,666 --> 00:59:04,294 Later, somebody leaked this email exchange from him, 1415 00:59:04,336 --> 00:59:05,462 and that guy openly claimed 1416 00:59:05,545 --> 00:59:07,213 that he was working for the US government. 1417 00:59:07,297 --> 00:59:09,007 Anybody who looks on Google 1418 00:59:09,090 --> 00:59:12,302 and searches, "Peter Todd leaked emails" will see... 1419 00:59:12,385 --> 00:59:15,722 Hoback: Back in 2013, there was this email thread 1420 00:59:15,805 --> 00:59:17,849 that had been leaked between Peter Todd 1421 00:59:17,932 --> 00:59:20,685 and a guy who called himself John Dillon. 1422 00:59:20,769 --> 00:59:22,228 Taaki: And in the emails, 1423 00:59:22,312 --> 00:59:25,398 Peter Todd was conspiring with this other guy 1424 00:59:25,482 --> 00:59:29,027 who was affiliated with state actors. 1425 00:59:29,110 --> 00:59:31,029 Hoback: With John Dillon claiming, 1426 00:59:31,112 --> 00:59:32,989 "My day job involves intelligence, 1427 00:59:33,031 --> 00:59:35,950 and I'm in a relatively high position." 1428 00:59:36,034 --> 00:59:39,162 Maybe Amir just wasn't aware of this at the time. 1429 00:59:39,996 --> 00:59:41,790 If it looks like something's coming into existence 1430 00:59:41,831 --> 00:59:44,668 that could replace the US dollar as the world's reserve currency, 1431 00:59:44,751 --> 00:59:46,878 the US government and its three-letter agencies 1432 00:59:46,961 --> 00:59:49,881 absolutely, without any doubt, will do whatever they can, 1433 00:59:49,964 --> 00:59:52,550 including secretly and covertly disrupting projects 1434 00:59:52,634 --> 00:59:53,718 like Bitcoin. 1435 00:59:54,094 --> 00:59:56,763 Hoback: If the government wanted to undermine Bitcoin, 1436 00:59:56,846 --> 00:59:59,349 or try to get close to Satoshi, how might they do it? 1437 00:59:59,432 --> 01:00:01,851 A guy that openly said that he was working for a three-letter agency 1438 01:00:01,893 --> 01:00:03,228 literally paid Peter Todd 1439 01:00:03,311 --> 01:00:05,897 to implement what's called replace-by-fee. 1440 01:00:05,980 --> 01:00:09,901 Hoback: John Dillon offered a strangely small $500 reward 1441 01:00:09,984 --> 01:00:12,028 for anyone who could design replace-by-fee. 1442 01:00:12,112 --> 01:00:14,739 It was essentially a bidding service. 1443 01:00:14,823 --> 01:00:18,785 If you pay more, you can send your Bitcoin faster. 1444 01:00:18,868 --> 01:00:20,787 Replace-by-fee was an attempt 1445 01:00:20,870 --> 01:00:23,748 to fix one of Bitcoin's design problems. 1446 01:00:24,207 --> 01:00:26,710 Something that Satoshi had speculated on 1447 01:00:26,793 --> 01:00:29,254 just before disappearing from the forums. 1448 01:00:29,838 --> 01:00:32,590 And Satoshi knew it would be a fair amount of work. 1449 01:00:32,674 --> 01:00:35,719 So, why would Peter Todd do it for 500 bucks? 1450 01:00:36,177 --> 01:00:39,472 On the forums, John Dillon publicly prodded Peter Todd to, 1451 01:00:39,556 --> 01:00:42,100 "Write some code for once." 1452 01:00:42,183 --> 01:00:44,686 And so, in 2013, 1453 01:00:44,728 --> 01:00:47,605 about three years after Satoshi's disappearance, 1454 01:00:47,689 --> 01:00:50,316 Peter Todd solves this design problem. 1455 01:00:50,400 --> 01:00:52,068 I played that little part, 1456 01:00:52,152 --> 01:00:54,154 creating this replace-by-fee patch. 1457 01:00:54,237 --> 01:00:57,240 Hoback: Which the Big Blockers thought was a terrible idea 1458 01:00:57,282 --> 01:00:59,868 because it could result in some really high fees 1459 01:00:59,951 --> 01:01:01,745 just to send some Bitcoin. 1460 01:01:02,162 --> 01:01:04,039 Ver: Peter Todd, whether he's a government agent, 1461 01:01:04,122 --> 01:01:06,207 he's absolutely a super smart guy. 1462 01:01:06,249 --> 01:01:07,751 He's gotta be the smartest guy in the room. 1463 01:01:07,834 --> 01:01:09,085 He always wants to make sure he can prove 1464 01:01:09,169 --> 01:01:10,587 that he's the smartest guy in the room. 1465 01:01:10,670 --> 01:01:13,048 So, is anyone in this audience 1466 01:01:13,089 --> 01:01:14,758 working for government right now? 1467 01:01:14,841 --> 01:01:16,092 (scattered laughter) 1468 01:01:16,134 --> 01:01:17,969 Because if you are, I guess I'm one of the people 1469 01:01:18,053 --> 01:01:21,056 handling negotiation with government. 1470 01:01:21,139 --> 01:01:22,599 Hoback: Even the email exchange 1471 01:01:22,640 --> 01:01:25,393 made Peter Todd look pretty damn smart. 1472 01:01:25,477 --> 01:01:26,603 But after the leak, 1473 01:01:26,686 --> 01:01:28,772 John Dillon disappeared for good. 1474 01:01:28,855 --> 01:01:31,149 As far as I know, Peter Todd never denied any of that. 1475 01:01:31,232 --> 01:01:33,777 I think that's pretty much accepted as fact at this point. 1476 01:01:33,860 --> 01:01:35,904 Hoback: I found myself wondering 1477 01:01:35,945 --> 01:01:39,074 if maybe he did work for the government in some way. 1478 01:01:39,157 --> 01:01:42,452 So, how close were you with Blockstream back in the day? 1479 01:01:42,494 --> 01:01:43,453 -Todd: Me? -Hoback: Yeah. 1480 01:01:43,536 --> 01:01:45,789 Uh, mostly, I went to their office, 1481 01:01:45,872 --> 01:01:47,624 uh, drink all their Red Bull. 1482 01:01:47,665 --> 01:01:49,793 I'd go and eat all their snacks. 1483 01:01:49,876 --> 01:01:51,544 Yeah, yeah. I mean, they'd never pay me, 1484 01:01:51,628 --> 01:01:54,047 but I might as well get paid in all other possible ways. 1485 01:01:54,506 --> 01:01:57,967 Hoback: So, he was just strategically close to Adam. 1486 01:01:58,051 --> 01:02:00,512 Well, Adam seems to respect you a lot. 1487 01:02:01,805 --> 01:02:05,100 Meh, I mean I guess I have reasonable ideas. 1488 01:02:05,141 --> 01:02:08,103 It's not that hard. Adam respects plenty of people. 1489 01:02:08,186 --> 01:02:10,480 -I think he thinks of you like a son. -A son. 1490 01:02:10,563 --> 01:02:12,273 Yeah. I mean, I first talked to him 1491 01:02:12,315 --> 01:02:15,235 -when I was, like, a teenager. -(Mow laughs) 1492 01:02:15,318 --> 01:02:16,611 It's probably part of it. 1493 01:02:16,695 --> 01:02:17,946 โ™ชโ™ช 1494 01:02:18,029 --> 01:02:20,031 Hoback: They've got a lot of conspiracies about you. 1495 01:02:20,115 --> 01:02:21,324 Todd: Well, they should. 1496 01:02:21,366 --> 01:02:23,910 Don't you know I, like, worked for the CIA, NSA, 1497 01:02:23,993 --> 01:02:25,995 and also KGB at the same time? 1498 01:02:26,079 --> 01:02:29,165 Hoback: Well, they like to point at that email dump that happened. 1499 01:02:29,249 --> 01:02:31,292 Oh, yeah, yeah, the John Dillon bullshit. 1500 01:02:31,334 --> 01:02:33,670 -Hoback: Did you release that? -I have no idea who that guy is. 1501 01:02:33,753 --> 01:02:35,880 -Hoback: Really? -I mean, you know, people go 1502 01:02:35,964 --> 01:02:37,340 and email you all the time, 1503 01:02:37,382 --> 01:02:40,343 like, telling you all kinds of bullshit. 1504 01:02:40,385 --> 01:02:42,345 Hoback: Looked like you were trying to solve a lot of problems 1505 01:02:42,429 --> 01:02:44,681 -with him at the time, and, uh-- -No, I mean-- 1506 01:02:44,723 --> 01:02:45,974 Hoback: And there was, like, concerns 1507 01:02:46,057 --> 01:02:48,143 that, I guess that John Dillon guy 1508 01:02:48,184 --> 01:02:50,186 was like under-- was like, an agent or something and then-- 1509 01:02:50,228 --> 01:02:52,230 The guy explicitly claimed he was, uh, 1510 01:02:52,313 --> 01:02:54,691 you know, working for the US government intelligence. 1511 01:02:54,774 --> 01:02:56,693 But, you know, is that true or not? 1512 01:02:56,776 --> 01:02:58,570 Who the fuck knows? Like, 1513 01:02:58,945 --> 01:03:00,030 the problem with all this stuff 1514 01:03:00,071 --> 01:03:02,866 is people play all kinds of crazy games. 1515 01:03:02,949 --> 01:03:04,075 Could be a 4chan troll. 1516 01:03:04,159 --> 01:03:05,827 Like, that's just the reality of it. 1517 01:03:05,910 --> 01:03:06,870 You just don't know. 1518 01:03:06,911 --> 01:03:08,371 Hoback: In that email chain, 1519 01:03:08,413 --> 01:03:11,249 there was one thing that the John Dillon guy said, 1520 01:03:11,332 --> 01:03:12,500 where he was like, 1521 01:03:12,542 --> 01:03:15,128 "If the US government wanted to fuck up Bitcoin, 1522 01:03:15,211 --> 01:03:18,298 -here's the strategy that they might take." -Todd: Well, yeah... 1523 01:03:18,381 --> 01:03:20,175 If you wanted to go screw with Bitcoin, 1524 01:03:20,258 --> 01:03:23,053 one of the things you do is try to convince the coding community 1525 01:03:23,136 --> 01:03:25,388 to go splinter up into, like, five different efforts. 1526 01:03:25,472 --> 01:03:28,892 Hoback: Which is what happened after the Blocksize War. 1527 01:03:29,267 --> 01:03:32,228 Because if you couldn't change Bitcoin, 1528 01:03:32,270 --> 01:03:35,857 why not just make your own coin? 1529 01:03:36,399 --> 01:03:39,152 โ™ช Pump it up, you've got to pump it up โ™ช 1530 01:03:39,235 --> 01:03:41,237 โ™ช Don't you know, pump it up โ™ช 1531 01:03:41,321 --> 01:03:43,156 โ™ช You've got to pump it up โ™ช 1532 01:03:43,239 --> 01:03:46,034 Hoback: Soon, dozens, then hundreds, 1533 01:03:46,117 --> 01:03:48,828 then thousands of alternate coins revved up, 1534 01:03:48,912 --> 01:03:50,080 each coin proclaiming to offer 1535 01:03:50,163 --> 01:03:52,248 something different from Bitcoin. 1536 01:03:52,332 --> 01:03:55,418 You could even bank while you wank. 1537 01:03:55,460 --> 01:03:57,754 newscaster: It's unbelievable how much this has taken off. 1538 01:03:57,796 --> 01:03:59,798 Hoback: The crypto industry exploded. 1539 01:03:59,881 --> 01:04:04,094 -(elongated) Bitconne...ct! -(crowd cheering) 1540 01:04:04,177 --> 01:04:05,720 Hoback: Like the stock market, 1541 01:04:05,762 --> 01:04:07,639 you could bet that these alt coins 1542 01:04:07,722 --> 01:04:09,432 would boom in value, and many did, 1543 01:04:09,474 --> 01:04:13,019 with some coins 10-X-ing or 100-X-ing in value. 1544 01:04:13,103 --> 01:04:14,938 Wall Street now had competition. 1545 01:04:15,021 --> 01:04:17,565 You heard it here first! Bitcoin is going to zero! 1546 01:04:17,607 --> 01:04:20,443 Hoback: Virtually unregulated competition. 1547 01:04:20,527 --> 01:04:22,529 Dogecoin to the moon! 1548 01:04:22,612 --> 01:04:24,114 (rapid beeping) 1549 01:04:24,155 --> 01:04:25,448 Hoback: Which couldn't last. 1550 01:04:25,490 --> 01:04:28,618 (dramatic opera singing) 1551 01:04:32,831 --> 01:04:36,626 And now, the mark-- Oh! Ow! It went to zero! 1552 01:04:36,668 --> 01:04:38,795 Hoback: By the end of the year, the bubble burst louder 1553 01:04:38,837 --> 01:04:42,048 -than the stock market did in the early 2000s. -(screaming) 1554 01:04:42,132 --> 01:04:45,677 Bitcoin's value cut in half from its all-time high, 1555 01:04:45,760 --> 01:04:47,512 with the crypto casino 1556 01:04:47,595 --> 01:04:51,099 just making the whole industry seem stupid. 1557 01:04:51,182 --> 01:04:53,560 crypto investor: It sucks. I mean, I've lost 1558 01:04:53,643 --> 01:04:55,395 over $100,000 right now. 1559 01:04:55,478 --> 01:04:58,106 Yo! The motherfucking coins are dipping! 1560 01:04:58,148 --> 01:05:00,567 Why is the price falling so low? 1561 01:05:00,650 --> 01:05:02,610 I've never cried so much 1562 01:05:02,694 --> 01:05:05,196 in my grown-ass adult life. 1563 01:05:05,280 --> 01:05:07,490 It hurts. Um... 1564 01:05:08,616 --> 01:05:09,659 Yeah. 1565 01:05:09,826 --> 01:05:12,454 Nouriel Roubini: These shitcoins, they were outright scams 1566 01:05:12,537 --> 01:05:14,164 and frauds. If there were real shitcoins, 1567 01:05:14,247 --> 01:05:17,834 you could use them as manure to fertilize food. 1568 01:05:17,917 --> 01:05:20,837 I would rather buy shit, literally shit, 1569 01:05:20,879 --> 01:05:23,340 that's worth something, is a good fertilizer, 1570 01:05:23,423 --> 01:05:24,507 than buying shitcoins. 1571 01:05:24,799 --> 01:05:27,552 Hoback: So, how could Bitcoin separate itself from the pack? 1572 01:05:27,635 --> 01:05:29,095 choir: โ™ช Hallelujah โ™ช 1573 01:05:29,179 --> 01:05:31,431 The answer was Bitcoin maximalism. 1574 01:05:31,514 --> 01:05:33,558 Bitcoin is perfect. It's perfect money. 1575 01:05:33,641 --> 01:05:35,352 singer: โ™ช Hallelujah โ™ช 1576 01:05:35,393 --> 01:05:36,936 Hoback: It was salvation from the shitcoins. 1577 01:05:37,020 --> 01:05:39,397 A gift from on high. 1578 01:05:39,481 --> 01:05:42,150 Bitcoin is what they call the Immaculate Conception. 1579 01:05:42,192 --> 01:05:44,569 Hoback: The cure to all the world's problems. 1580 01:05:44,652 --> 01:05:47,906 This idea that Bitcoin was born perfect, you know? 1581 01:05:47,989 --> 01:05:50,116 It just, like, emerged from the mind of Satoshi, 1582 01:05:50,200 --> 01:05:52,619 almost like a gift that was received from God, 1583 01:05:52,702 --> 01:05:55,830 and just, like, perfectly articulated into the white paper, 1584 01:05:55,872 --> 01:05:57,123 and then into the code. 1585 01:05:57,207 --> 01:05:58,249 That's a complete myth. 1586 01:05:58,416 --> 01:06:00,502 Hoback: So Bitcoin's greatest "virtue" 1587 01:06:00,543 --> 01:06:03,046 became that it was already perfect, 1588 01:06:03,129 --> 01:06:06,549 reinforcing that it could never fundamentally change. 1589 01:06:06,591 --> 01:06:10,303 Which created an opening for its greatest competition. 1590 01:06:10,762 --> 01:06:12,889 Ethereum, a coin which was 1591 01:06:12,972 --> 01:06:15,016 Bitcoin's opposite in almost every way, 1592 01:06:15,058 --> 01:06:17,727 including having a very prominent founder. 1593 01:06:17,811 --> 01:06:20,271 -Why the hat? -Oh, yeah... 1594 01:06:20,355 --> 01:06:21,439 For mosquitoes? 1595 01:06:21,648 --> 01:06:23,692 (speaking English) 1596 01:06:25,902 --> 01:06:27,987 So, Bitcoin is a blockchain 1597 01:06:28,071 --> 01:06:29,948 that's designed for one application. 1598 01:06:30,031 --> 01:06:33,743 -The hat makes you even more... conspicious. -(Buterin mutters) 1599 01:06:33,785 --> 01:06:35,620 Vitalik Buterin: Ethereum basically will let people do 1600 01:06:35,704 --> 01:06:38,081 whatever thing that they want to do on top of it. 1601 01:06:38,123 --> 01:06:40,166 Hoback: Like NFTs, 1602 01:06:40,250 --> 01:06:42,627 which are basically just... whatever fucking shit 1603 01:06:42,711 --> 01:06:44,170 stored on a blockchain. 1604 01:06:44,254 --> 01:06:46,631 -We're part of the same community. We're both apes. -I know. Yes, love it. 1605 01:06:46,715 --> 01:06:49,426 Hoback: Some people paid ungodly amounts for these. 1606 01:06:50,593 --> 01:06:53,346 The Ethereum team even made their announcements 1607 01:06:53,430 --> 01:06:56,224 -through... rap. -(hip-hop music playing) 1608 01:06:56,266 --> 01:06:58,727 โ™ช Yo, not just a pre-compiler change of op-codes โ™ช 1609 01:06:58,768 --> 01:07:01,479 โ™ช We're here to sustain the scale of our full nodes โ™ช 1610 01:07:01,563 --> 01:07:03,815 โ™ช Proof-of-stake is hard, but what I do know โ™ช 1611 01:07:03,898 --> 01:07:06,776 โ™ช Is when we learn to shard we'll change the whole game though โ™ช 1612 01:07:06,818 --> 01:07:09,487 Back: I mean, that was super embarrassing, right? 1613 01:07:09,571 --> 01:07:10,655 -Yeah. -(laughter) 1614 01:07:10,739 --> 01:07:12,073 Proof of cringe or something. 1615 01:07:12,115 --> 01:07:13,908 -(Prince Philip laughs) -That was pretty bad. 1616 01:07:13,950 --> 01:07:16,870 Hoback: Naturally, Bitcoin maximalists hate Ethereum. 1617 01:07:16,953 --> 01:07:19,539 But then, what do you do with Ethereum? You make more shitcoins. 1618 01:07:19,622 --> 01:07:22,083 It went from 10,000 coins to 20,000 coins 1619 01:07:22,167 --> 01:07:24,461 in actually not that long of a period of time. 1620 01:07:24,544 --> 01:07:26,296 The Scambrian explosion. 1621 01:07:26,338 --> 01:07:29,716 -(laughter) -(somber music playing) 1622 01:07:29,799 --> 01:07:32,844 Hoback: But, the so-called Scambrian explosion 1623 01:07:32,927 --> 01:07:35,805 had a serious side effect. 1624 01:07:35,889 --> 01:07:38,016 China now had the excuse it needed 1625 01:07:38,099 --> 01:07:40,894 to ban all crypto currencies, 1626 01:07:40,977 --> 01:07:42,979 so that they could launch their own. 1627 01:07:43,021 --> 01:07:45,690 China's currency is going digital, 1628 01:07:45,774 --> 01:07:48,443 known as e-Chinese yuan. 1629 01:07:48,485 --> 01:07:52,155 Hoback: It was basically a government-backed shitcoin. 1630 01:07:52,238 --> 01:07:54,199 Their digital currency was inflationary, 1631 01:07:54,282 --> 01:07:56,951 their government had total control of your wallet, 1632 01:07:57,035 --> 01:07:58,745 and it took Bitcoin's privacy problems 1633 01:07:58,828 --> 01:08:00,372 and turned them into a feature. 1634 01:08:00,455 --> 01:08:03,291 speaker: The People's Bank of China is gonna be able 1635 01:08:03,333 --> 01:08:06,670 to peer inside of every single transaction. 1636 01:08:06,753 --> 01:08:10,173 So, they're building everything to be monitored. 1637 01:08:10,256 --> 01:08:12,050 (crowd clamoring) 1638 01:08:12,133 --> 01:08:14,177 So, there were protests in Hong Kong. 1639 01:08:14,219 --> 01:08:15,303 And what people had to do 1640 01:08:15,345 --> 01:08:16,930 was buy their subway tickets with cash. 1641 01:08:17,013 --> 01:08:18,848 -They couldn't use their card. -Hoback: Mm-hmm. Yeah. 1642 01:08:18,932 --> 01:08:20,183 Mow: Because then you can be traced 1643 01:08:20,266 --> 01:08:21,685 that you went to the protests. 1644 01:08:21,726 --> 01:08:23,311 So, it's a very dangerous thing. 1645 01:08:23,353 --> 01:08:26,398 Hoback: It's what's known as a CBDC, 1646 01:08:26,481 --> 01:08:28,983 or central bank digital currency. 1647 01:08:29,025 --> 01:08:31,444 With Bitcoin, it still takes some digging 1648 01:08:31,528 --> 01:08:33,405 to figure out who owns what. 1649 01:08:33,488 --> 01:08:35,448 And if you're careful, or you're Satoshi 1650 01:08:35,532 --> 01:08:38,702 -and never spend your coins, you can stay hidden. -(whoosh) 1651 01:08:38,785 --> 01:08:41,913 But, with CBDCs, your identity is known to the government 1652 01:08:41,996 --> 01:08:44,457 and your wallet controlled. 1653 01:08:44,541 --> 01:08:46,960 In other words, Satoshi's invention 1654 01:08:47,043 --> 01:08:50,422 had given rise to the very thing it aimed to prevent. 1655 01:08:51,381 --> 01:08:55,719 -(money rustling) -What would happen if other countries followed suit? 1656 01:08:58,513 --> 01:09:02,225 But, the Maxis were convinced that Bitcoin would win the day, 1657 01:09:02,308 --> 01:09:04,144 putting their faith on display 1658 01:09:04,227 --> 01:09:06,813 by pilgrimaging to a massive yearly conference. 1659 01:09:06,896 --> 01:09:08,523 And it's ridiculous. 1660 01:09:08,565 --> 01:09:11,818 -(upbeat music playing) -(crowd cheering) 1661 01:09:13,570 --> 01:09:15,864 I'll die on this hill, but they can't stop this idea. 1662 01:09:15,905 --> 01:09:18,658 Maxi: That bright orange future that is Bitcoin... 1663 01:09:18,742 --> 01:09:22,078 We are the vanguard of a new monetary system. 1664 01:09:22,120 --> 01:09:23,246 (cheering) 1665 01:09:23,329 --> 01:09:25,498 Yo! Yo! Yo! Bitcoin! 1666 01:09:25,582 --> 01:09:28,793 I am more bullish than ever on Bitcoin. 1667 01:09:28,960 --> 01:09:30,128 (music stops) 1668 01:09:30,211 --> 01:09:32,130 Hoback: It's like you're in some sort of cult. 1669 01:09:32,213 --> 01:09:34,424 (laughs) You're gonna make me look bad. 1670 01:09:34,466 --> 01:09:37,802 -(crowd cheering) -I have Senator Indira Kempis 1671 01:09:37,886 --> 01:09:39,429 to give an update on Mexico. 1672 01:09:39,512 --> 01:09:42,307 Indira Kempis: 67 million people are not included 1673 01:09:42,390 --> 01:09:43,600 in our financial system. 1674 01:09:43,683 --> 01:09:46,436 As the president of Madeira, I believe in Bitcoin. 1675 01:09:46,478 --> 01:09:49,147 Bitcoin, within Prospera, 1676 01:09:49,230 --> 01:09:51,149 operates as legal tender. 1677 01:09:51,232 --> 01:09:53,818 I'll make a small announcement. 1678 01:09:54,527 --> 01:09:57,489 I have a new Bitcoin company called Jan3. 1679 01:09:58,156 --> 01:10:00,116 I decided to leave Blockstream 1680 01:10:00,200 --> 01:10:02,285 and focus more on nation-state Bitcoin adoption. 1681 01:10:02,369 --> 01:10:05,330 Hoback: So, were they feeling the pressure? 1682 01:10:05,413 --> 01:10:06,664 (gallery chatter) 1683 01:10:06,748 --> 01:10:09,334 I guess Bitcoin doesn't adopt itself, right? 1684 01:10:09,417 --> 01:10:12,712 -Well, I want it to go faster. -(Back laughs) 1685 01:10:12,796 --> 01:10:15,507 Back: So, uh, your company name, 3Jan? 1686 01:10:15,590 --> 01:10:18,051 -Jan3. -So, explain why 3Jan? 1687 01:10:18,134 --> 01:10:20,470 January 3, 2009. 1688 01:10:20,553 --> 01:10:21,805 That was the start of Bitcoin, was it? 1689 01:10:21,846 --> 01:10:23,473 -Well, that's the Genesis Block, right? -Okay! 1690 01:10:23,515 --> 01:10:25,183 Every year, it's Jan 3 is the anniversary 1691 01:10:25,266 --> 01:10:27,686 -of the Genesis Block. -Alright, yeah, you're good on the anniversaries. 1692 01:10:27,769 --> 01:10:29,938 Hoback: Samson was telling me there was another anniversary recently 1693 01:10:29,979 --> 01:10:33,692 -that I did not know of. -Yeah, uh, Adam's birthday on April 5th. 1694 01:10:34,192 --> 01:10:35,235 (awkward laugh) 1695 01:10:35,735 --> 01:10:37,362 -That's not my birthday. -Inside joke. 1696 01:10:37,445 --> 01:10:40,073 -Is it? Very well. -It's an inside joke. 1697 01:10:40,156 --> 01:10:41,616 Hoback: April 5th 1698 01:10:41,658 --> 01:10:44,285 was Satoshi's supposed birthday. 1699 01:10:44,369 --> 01:10:47,330 -Mow: She wants to take a photo with her artwork. -Back: Okay. 1700 01:10:47,372 --> 01:10:49,666 -It has no sleeve, right? -No. 1701 01:10:49,708 --> 01:10:51,376 -It's a cloak? Alright. -It's a cloak. 1702 01:10:51,459 --> 01:10:54,295 -(shutters snapping, laughter) -You guys are having fun now. 1703 01:10:56,673 --> 01:10:58,842 So, he thinks that you're Satoshi. 1704 01:10:58,883 --> 01:11:00,593 I hope he doesn't. (laughs) 1705 01:11:00,677 --> 01:11:02,846 I tried to explain to him specifically that I'm not. 1706 01:11:02,887 --> 01:11:04,973 Hoback: I said that you can make a case for Adam, 1707 01:11:05,056 --> 01:11:06,307 and you can make a strong case, 1708 01:11:06,391 --> 01:11:07,851 but it doesn't mean that I'm convinced. 1709 01:11:07,934 --> 01:11:09,978 No, Satoshi was a team. 1710 01:11:10,061 --> 01:11:11,104 โ™ชโ™ช 1711 01:11:11,187 --> 01:11:12,856 (laughing) 1712 01:11:12,897 --> 01:11:14,149 Just kidding. Just kidding. 1713 01:11:14,232 --> 01:11:16,860 Hoback: Even with the breakup, I was a little surprised 1714 01:11:16,901 --> 01:11:20,739 he was trolling Adam this hard about being Satoshi. 1715 01:11:21,197 --> 01:11:24,075 -(Back speaking) -(laughter) 1716 01:11:24,868 --> 01:11:27,037 Hoback: Yeah, yeah, as long as the troll is on your side. 1717 01:11:27,078 --> 01:11:29,956 (Back speaking) 1718 01:11:34,169 --> 01:11:36,421 (soft music playing) 1719 01:11:38,965 --> 01:11:40,925 (upbeat music playing) 1720 01:11:42,385 --> 01:11:44,095 -(items clatter) -Mow: Oh, boy. 1721 01:11:44,554 --> 01:11:47,182 -(plane humming) -Hoback: The US had more or less fought wars 1722 01:11:47,265 --> 01:11:48,767 to maintain the status of the dollar 1723 01:11:48,850 --> 01:11:50,518 as the global reserve currency. 1724 01:11:50,602 --> 01:11:52,228 -Let's order a coffee. -Okay. 1725 01:11:52,270 --> 01:11:53,646 Hoback: How might they react 1726 01:11:53,730 --> 01:11:55,565 if more countries adopted Bitcoin? 1727 01:11:55,607 --> 01:11:56,608 Mow: I'm not gonna lie. 1728 01:11:56,691 --> 01:11:57,901 You're probably gonna get some heat 1729 01:11:58,026 --> 01:12:00,737 because the powers that be don't want this to happen. 1730 01:12:00,779 --> 01:12:03,782 Prince Philip: All currencies will turn to one. 1731 01:12:03,865 --> 01:12:04,616 Bitcoin. 1732 01:12:04,699 --> 01:12:06,117 Things change very quickly. 1733 01:12:06,201 --> 01:12:09,245 Tucker, I just wanna say hi. You're doing an excellent job. 1734 01:12:09,287 --> 01:12:11,206 That's my card. (laughs) 1735 01:12:11,289 --> 01:12:14,084 -I'm the crazy prince that's talking about Bitcoin. -(laughs) 1736 01:12:14,125 --> 01:12:16,419 But, you know how it is. They-- First, they laugh at you. 1737 01:12:16,503 --> 01:12:18,296 (indistinct chatter) 1738 01:12:18,380 --> 01:12:19,714 Stealth mode. 1739 01:12:19,756 --> 01:12:22,092 That's not stealth. That's a Canada hoodie. 1740 01:12:22,133 --> 01:12:24,469 (Prince Philip speaking English) 1741 01:12:27,889 --> 01:12:29,766 Jack Dorsey: What Bitcoin does to societies, 1742 01:12:29,849 --> 01:12:32,018 what it does to people's relationship with money, 1743 01:12:32,102 --> 01:12:35,647 to the state, to each other, it literally changes everything. 1744 01:12:36,398 --> 01:12:38,650 Hoback: But, what path would it take? 1745 01:12:38,733 --> 01:12:40,568 โ™ชโ™ช 1746 01:12:40,610 --> 01:12:43,405 Today, Bitcoin takes yet another turn lower. 1747 01:12:43,446 --> 01:12:45,490 This is a Bitcoin emergency. 1748 01:12:45,573 --> 01:12:48,284 Complete free fall. Anything can happen. 1749 01:12:48,326 --> 01:12:49,953 (thunder rumbles) 1750 01:12:50,036 --> 01:12:52,831 There's a crisis. You've got reporters calling you right now. 1751 01:12:52,914 --> 01:12:55,792 -(boat rumbling) -What are you telling them? 1752 01:12:56,334 --> 01:12:58,628 Well, I mean, people look at the short term, 1753 01:12:58,670 --> 01:13:00,964 and the news cycle is, like, day by day. 1754 01:13:01,047 --> 01:13:04,384 But, Bitcoin has been around for, like, over a decade. 1755 01:13:04,801 --> 01:13:05,927 (thunder cracks) 1756 01:13:06,261 --> 01:13:07,512 (Hoback speaking) 1757 01:13:07,804 --> 01:13:09,264 -(boat captain speaking) -Yeah. 1758 01:13:09,305 --> 01:13:11,307 -That's pretty cool. -(murmuring) 1759 01:13:11,391 --> 01:13:13,143 (Hoback speaking) 1760 01:13:13,184 --> 01:13:14,436 (boat captain speaking) 1761 01:13:16,688 --> 01:13:18,440 Hoback: Unfortunately for him, 1762 01:13:18,523 --> 01:13:19,816 amidst this crash, 1763 01:13:19,899 --> 01:13:23,153 Luna was a shitcoin that really hit the fan. 1764 01:13:23,236 --> 01:13:24,362 (Hoback speaking) 1765 01:13:24,821 --> 01:13:27,490 -He had it. -Yes. (laughs) 1766 01:13:27,532 --> 01:13:29,242 Hoback: Looking like a Ponzi scheme... 1767 01:13:29,325 --> 01:13:30,493 You're looking at a similar scale 1768 01:13:30,535 --> 01:13:31,786 to the Madoff Ponzi. 1769 01:13:31,828 --> 01:13:33,830 Hoback: ...after million-dollar Ponzi scheme... 1770 01:13:33,913 --> 01:13:36,166 Celsius is being accused of functioning 1771 01:13:36,249 --> 01:13:37,459 like a Ponzi scheme. 1772 01:13:37,542 --> 01:13:39,044 Hoback: ...this was their founder. 1773 01:13:39,127 --> 01:13:42,339 Who would be crazy enough to give their coins, 1774 01:13:42,380 --> 01:13:44,883 their crypto, to somebody who's not a bank? 1775 01:13:44,966 --> 01:13:48,136 Hoback: But the people who trusted this guy with their crypto, 1776 01:13:48,178 --> 01:13:49,512 they lost billions. 1777 01:13:49,596 --> 01:13:52,015 This is bullshit! I gave you my goddamn money! 1778 01:13:52,098 --> 01:13:54,726 I want it back! What the fuck is going on?! 1779 01:13:54,809 --> 01:13:56,728 Jim Cramer: Cryptocurrencies of all kinds 1780 01:13:56,811 --> 01:13:59,481 are still cascading with no real bottom in sight. 1781 01:13:59,522 --> 01:14:01,858 -(thunder cracks) -Hoback: Is lightning serious? 1782 01:14:01,900 --> 01:14:02,942 (boat roaring) 1783 01:14:03,026 --> 01:14:05,195 Uh, I guess we're-we're getting the hell outta here. 1784 01:14:05,278 --> 01:14:08,198 But, this storm wasn't over. 1785 01:14:08,239 --> 01:14:09,699 FTX shocked investors 1786 01:14:09,783 --> 01:14:11,242 by declaring bankruptcy this week. 1787 01:14:11,326 --> 01:14:15,497 It spent millions making sure its name was seen and known. 1788 01:14:15,580 --> 01:14:18,750 Hoback: Sam Bankman-Fried, known as SBF, 1789 01:14:18,833 --> 01:14:21,753 was the young, disheveled CEO of a massive US-based 1790 01:14:21,836 --> 01:14:24,047 crypto exchange called FTX. 1791 01:14:24,130 --> 01:14:26,466 FTX? It's a safe and easy way to get into crypto. 1792 01:14:26,549 --> 01:14:28,051 Eh, I don't think so. 1793 01:14:28,093 --> 01:14:31,262 Hoback: He defrauded customers and stole billions. 1794 01:14:31,805 --> 01:14:33,723 reporter: This is worse than Theranos. 1795 01:14:33,807 --> 01:14:35,517 This is worse than Madoff. 1796 01:14:36,226 --> 01:14:38,937 Hoback: And although he donated to a lot of politicians 1797 01:14:39,020 --> 01:14:39,896 and charities... 1798 01:14:39,979 --> 01:14:41,815 If I can do anything to help other people, 1799 01:14:41,898 --> 01:14:43,274 help the world, that's just as good. 1800 01:14:43,566 --> 01:14:46,778 Hoback: ...he didn't manage to bribe his way out of being arrested. 1801 01:14:46,861 --> 01:14:49,614 The fraud they committed was worse than the Enron mess, 1802 01:14:49,698 --> 01:14:52,659 according to the guy who cleaned up the Enron mess. 1803 01:14:52,742 --> 01:14:54,077 They used QuickBooks. 1804 01:14:54,119 --> 01:14:56,788 Multi-billion-dollar company using QuickBooks. 1805 01:14:56,871 --> 01:14:59,249 Back: The regulators, when they see something losing... 1806 01:14:59,290 --> 01:15:00,583 (thunder cracks) 1807 01:15:00,625 --> 01:15:02,544 ...$60 billion of retail money, 1808 01:15:02,627 --> 01:15:04,462 then, of course, they're gonna have something to say. 1809 01:15:04,546 --> 01:15:05,755 Hoback: Yeah, alright, let's get out. 1810 01:15:05,839 --> 01:15:07,966 The Secretary of the Treasury, Janet Yellen, 1811 01:15:08,049 --> 01:15:09,801 began acting on an executive order 1812 01:15:09,884 --> 01:15:13,763 that Biden had signed to rein in the crypto industry. 1813 01:15:13,805 --> 01:15:16,057 There are risks to financial stability, 1814 01:15:16,099 --> 01:15:17,475 and we need a framework. 1815 01:15:17,642 --> 01:15:20,311 Hoback: But, what would this mean for Bitcoin? 1816 01:15:21,104 --> 01:15:23,898 Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you. 1817 01:15:24,524 --> 01:15:26,776 It's actually more realistic than you think. 1818 01:15:28,069 --> 01:15:31,573 -(planes idling) -Hello, Melina. Good to see you again. 1819 01:15:31,614 --> 01:15:33,616 Hoback: Samson returned to El Salvador, 1820 01:15:33,700 --> 01:15:35,326 where the President was facing increased 1821 01:15:35,410 --> 01:15:38,538 international pressure for having adopted Bitcoin. 1822 01:15:38,621 --> 01:15:40,206 The attacks are increasing. 1823 01:15:40,290 --> 01:15:42,167 This rating agency just downgraded 1824 01:15:42,250 --> 01:15:43,668 El Salvador's long-term debt. 1825 01:15:43,752 --> 01:15:45,337 They're trying to put the pressure on. 1826 01:15:45,420 --> 01:15:47,630 But, President doesn't give a fuck. 1827 01:15:47,672 --> 01:15:49,299 Shepard Smith: The International Monetary Fund 1828 01:15:49,382 --> 01:15:52,469 has urged El Salvador to reverse course on Bitcoin. 1829 01:15:52,552 --> 01:15:53,845 In response, Bukele tweeted, 1830 01:15:53,928 --> 01:15:56,890 "Okay, boomers. You have zero jurisdiction. 1831 01:15:56,973 --> 01:16:00,143 We are not your colony, your backyard, or your front yard." 1832 01:16:00,185 --> 01:16:02,937 William Soriano: The IMF has some political control 1833 01:16:03,021 --> 01:16:05,607 over the countries they assist. 1834 01:16:05,690 --> 01:16:07,984 And that's where Bitcoin comes in. 1835 01:16:08,068 --> 01:16:09,652 The first time I saw him, he was saying, 1836 01:16:09,736 --> 01:16:12,489 "We're ready to die on this hill. All of us! 1837 01:16:12,572 --> 01:16:13,990 We're ready to die on this hill." 1838 01:16:14,074 --> 01:16:16,785 Hoback: Hope they were ready because the powers that be 1839 01:16:16,826 --> 01:16:19,287 -had a plan of their own. -(waves splashing) 1840 01:16:21,247 --> 01:16:22,040 (insects chirping) 1841 01:16:22,123 --> 01:16:24,542 Okay, yeah, this is the news. So... 1842 01:16:25,418 --> 01:16:28,088 uh, MasterCard, Wells Fargo, Citigroup, and others launch 1843 01:16:28,171 --> 01:16:30,507 a 12-week experimental digital dollar pilot 1844 01:16:30,548 --> 01:16:32,550 with the New York Fed. Did you see that? 1845 01:16:32,634 --> 01:16:35,220 I didn't see that. So what, it's a CBDC? 1846 01:16:36,721 --> 01:16:38,181 Oh, interesting. 1847 01:16:40,183 --> 01:16:42,519 -Your plot is coming true. -Can I give you this? 1848 01:16:42,602 --> 01:16:44,187 Mow: Things are heating up. 1849 01:16:44,270 --> 01:16:46,523 Can I give you some fiat? 1850 01:16:46,606 --> 01:16:48,149 -(laughter) -(curious music playing) 1851 01:16:48,233 --> 01:16:50,527 Hoback: Under the cover of the FTX scandal, 1852 01:16:50,610 --> 01:16:51,820 the United States announced 1853 01:16:52,070 --> 01:16:56,074 it would explore remaking the US Dollar as a CBDC. 1854 01:16:56,866 --> 01:16:59,869 You know, that thing that was condemned by Western media 1855 01:16:59,953 --> 01:17:03,456 -and US politicians over human rights issues. -(crowd yelling) 1856 01:17:03,748 --> 01:17:06,584 The Chinese CBDC is a surveillance tool. 1857 01:17:07,043 --> 01:17:09,838 Hoback: But now, the West was preparing to get on board. 1858 01:17:09,921 --> 01:17:12,048 The Fed even had their own white paper. 1859 01:17:12,090 --> 01:17:14,050 Jerome Powell: As our white paper on this topic notes, 1860 01:17:14,134 --> 01:17:17,637 a US CBDC could also potentially help maintain 1861 01:17:17,721 --> 01:17:19,139 the dollar's international standing. 1862 01:17:19,222 --> 01:17:21,516 -Hoback: A digital dollar... -(glitching) 1863 01:17:21,558 --> 01:17:24,394 ...that could replace cash entirely. 1864 01:17:24,436 --> 01:17:26,563 And they weren't alone. 1865 01:17:26,646 --> 01:17:28,106 โ™ชโ™ช 1866 01:17:28,356 --> 01:17:31,067 reporter: 60% of central banks around the world 1867 01:17:31,151 --> 01:17:32,902 are currently experimenting with CBDCs. 1868 01:17:32,986 --> 01:17:35,864 The CBDCs, it's really or authoritarianism 1869 01:17:35,947 --> 01:17:37,866 from even Western governments. 1870 01:17:37,949 --> 01:17:41,286 On CBDCs, I have pushed that project. 1871 01:17:41,369 --> 01:17:42,495 By 2030, 1872 01:17:42,579 --> 01:17:45,457 Britcoin, a central bank digital currency, 1873 01:17:45,540 --> 01:17:46,624 will be up and running. 1874 01:17:47,042 --> 01:17:49,002 Hoback: Why would a country adopt Bitcoin 1875 01:17:49,085 --> 01:17:50,795 when a government could just 1876 01:17:50,879 --> 01:17:52,630 issue their own digital currency 1877 01:17:52,714 --> 01:17:55,050 and have complete control? 1878 01:17:55,133 --> 01:17:57,385 Digital public money could help drive out 1879 01:17:57,427 --> 01:17:59,262 bogus digital private money. 1880 01:17:59,346 --> 01:18:01,014 Ver: The technology is tough to compete with, 1881 01:18:01,097 --> 01:18:02,807 so if you can't beat 'em, you have to join 'em. 1882 01:18:03,058 --> 01:18:05,101 reporter: It is potentially the biggest change to money 1883 01:18:05,143 --> 01:18:06,144 since, I don't know, 1884 01:18:06,186 --> 01:18:08,438 currency consolidation after the Civil War. 1885 01:18:08,480 --> 01:18:09,814 Roubini: Once we have CBDCs, 1886 01:18:09,898 --> 01:18:12,025 they're gonna essentially crowd out 1887 01:18:12,108 --> 01:18:13,943 any alternative payment system. 1888 01:18:14,319 --> 01:18:16,613 So, the future of payment transaction 1889 01:18:16,696 --> 01:18:18,782 is one bank, run by the government 1890 01:18:18,823 --> 01:18:20,950 with some cooperation of the private sector, 1891 01:18:20,992 --> 01:18:22,452 financial institutions. 1892 01:18:22,660 --> 01:18:26,331 Hoback: So, banks might still manage things like giving out loans. 1893 01:18:26,706 --> 01:18:27,999 But someday, our bank accounts 1894 01:18:28,083 --> 01:18:30,627 could be directly with the Fed? 1895 01:18:30,669 --> 01:18:32,128 They can surveil all your transactions, 1896 01:18:32,212 --> 01:18:33,797 and they have complete data monopoly. 1897 01:18:33,880 --> 01:18:36,800 Well, I think it's a bit of a crossroads. (laughs) 1898 01:18:36,841 --> 01:18:39,010 It could become extremely dystopian. 1899 01:18:39,094 --> 01:18:41,054 โ™ชโ™ช 1900 01:18:41,137 --> 01:18:42,847 Mow: There is a way that you could do a CBDC 1901 01:18:42,931 --> 01:18:45,517 that is not... bad for people. 1902 01:18:45,600 --> 01:18:47,769 -But, the problem is they don't want that. -No, of course not. 1903 01:18:47,852 --> 01:18:49,312 They don't want the privacy. 1904 01:18:49,979 --> 01:18:52,148 Faster Bitcoin adoption means 1905 01:18:52,190 --> 01:18:55,443 the better off the world will be when the shit hits the fan. 1906 01:18:56,653 --> 01:18:58,571 And the shit is hitting the fan. 1907 01:18:58,655 --> 01:19:00,740 (curious music playing) 1908 01:19:00,824 --> 01:19:03,660 Fallout continues to grow from the collapse 1909 01:19:03,702 --> 01:19:05,662 of Silicon Valley Bank and Signature Bank. 1910 01:19:05,745 --> 01:19:06,871 First Republic Bank, 1911 01:19:06,996 --> 01:19:10,166 second largest bank failure in US history. 1912 01:19:10,208 --> 01:19:13,920 Hoback: Following the pandemic, the Fed printed a lot of money. 1913 01:19:14,379 --> 01:19:17,424 $13 trillion. It triggered inflation 1914 01:19:17,507 --> 01:19:19,759 not seen in over 40 years. 1915 01:19:19,843 --> 01:19:22,387 Suddenly, banks had risky balance sheets. 1916 01:19:22,470 --> 01:19:23,513 There were bank runs, 1917 01:19:23,596 --> 01:19:26,683 and four massive banks were wiped out overnight. 1918 01:19:27,183 --> 01:19:29,644 Similar to what happened in 2009, 1919 01:19:29,686 --> 01:19:31,396 the government stepped in to prevent 1920 01:19:31,479 --> 01:19:32,981 a total financial meltdown. 1921 01:19:33,064 --> 01:19:35,442 I can reassure the members of the committee 1922 01:19:35,525 --> 01:19:37,902 that our banking system is sound. 1923 01:19:37,986 --> 01:19:39,529 Hoback: Amid this crisis, 1924 01:19:39,571 --> 01:19:41,364 regulators seized an opportunity. 1925 01:19:41,448 --> 01:19:43,408 Kathy Hochul: New York State Department of Financial Services 1926 01:19:43,491 --> 01:19:46,870 took possession of a New York chartered bank, 1927 01:19:46,911 --> 01:19:48,705 known as Signature, last night. 1928 01:19:48,788 --> 01:19:50,331 Hoback: This was strange 1929 01:19:50,415 --> 01:19:53,084 because Signature Bank wasn't actually insolvent. 1930 01:19:53,543 --> 01:19:57,756 Meanwhile, First Republic, another bank that failed, was. 1931 01:19:58,298 --> 01:19:59,799 But instead of shutting them down, 1932 01:19:59,883 --> 01:20:01,384 they got a full bail-out. 1933 01:20:02,052 --> 01:20:05,472 The difference, Signature was the only major bank 1934 01:20:05,555 --> 01:20:07,932 servicing the crypto industry. 1935 01:20:08,016 --> 01:20:11,394 The regulators are sending a, uh, a clear signal. 1936 01:20:11,436 --> 01:20:13,063 Stay, stay away from digital. 1937 01:20:13,480 --> 01:20:15,899 Hoback: But, the next signal would come in the form 1938 01:20:15,940 --> 01:20:17,901 of a familiar face. 1939 01:20:17,942 --> 01:20:20,695 So, Roger Ver, Bitcoin Jesus 1940 01:20:20,779 --> 01:20:22,655 was just arrested in Spain. 1941 01:20:22,739 --> 01:20:24,115 Roger had allegedly evaded 1942 01:20:24,199 --> 01:20:27,410 $48 million in Bitcoin taxes. 1943 01:20:27,494 --> 01:20:30,288 You can have your own private bank account, right? 1944 01:20:30,372 --> 01:20:33,416 It's called a Bitcoin account, and it's impossible 1945 01:20:33,458 --> 01:20:35,043 for the government to seize your account. 1946 01:20:35,418 --> 01:20:37,921 Hoback: But, it seems they could extradite him, 1947 01:20:37,962 --> 01:20:40,548 even though he'd renounced his US citizenship. 1948 01:20:41,925 --> 01:20:43,635 Todd: You know, what you're really asking 1949 01:20:43,718 --> 01:20:45,095 is what's the endpoint to the crackdowns. 1950 01:20:45,136 --> 01:20:47,013 This is an example of regulators 1951 01:20:47,097 --> 01:20:49,265 who cannot actually do what they want to do, 1952 01:20:49,349 --> 01:20:51,434 -which was just go ban Bitcoin. -Back: Right. 1953 01:20:51,476 --> 01:20:54,104 Instead, they apply pressure in this sort of alternative way 1954 01:20:54,187 --> 01:20:56,773 to go do something they're not really allowed to do. 1955 01:20:56,815 --> 01:20:58,692 They fired all the missiles now, right? 1956 01:20:58,775 --> 01:21:01,277 They-They've sued the biggest exchanges. 1957 01:21:01,319 --> 01:21:02,862 They've made all the allegations. 1958 01:21:02,946 --> 01:21:06,533 Hoback: But, the big banks and the government weren't done yet. 1959 01:21:07,158 --> 01:21:09,285 Dimon: Crypto, Bitcoin, etc. 1960 01:21:09,369 --> 01:21:11,121 If I was the government, I'd close it down. 1961 01:21:11,204 --> 01:21:12,664 We've got a way to do this! 1962 01:21:12,747 --> 01:21:16,167 Hoback: So, Senator Warren introduced a bipartisan bill 1963 01:21:16,251 --> 01:21:17,794 that would essentially make it illegal 1964 01:21:17,877 --> 01:21:20,130 to use Bitcoin like digital cash. 1965 01:21:20,213 --> 01:21:21,923 Asked if they would support this, 1966 01:21:21,965 --> 01:21:23,800 the banks seemed delighted. 1967 01:21:23,842 --> 01:21:25,468 -Let's go on down the line. -Absolutely. 1968 01:21:25,510 --> 01:21:27,679 -banker 1: Absolutely. -banker 2: Absolutely. 1969 01:21:27,762 --> 01:21:29,097 banker 3: Absolutely. 1970 01:21:29,180 --> 01:21:31,141 -Absolutely, Senator. -Okay, I like absolutely! 1971 01:21:31,182 --> 01:21:34,477 Hoback: But Wall Street had a plan. 1972 01:21:34,519 --> 01:21:36,104 Let's get it inside the regulated system 1973 01:21:36,146 --> 01:21:37,522 as much as, as we can. 1974 01:21:37,605 --> 01:21:40,275 Hoback: Bitcoin would be traded on the stock market, 1975 01:21:40,316 --> 01:21:41,985 but you wouldn't actually own it. 1976 01:21:42,068 --> 01:21:45,447 The banks and hedge funds, they would hold it for you. 1977 01:21:45,488 --> 01:21:47,240 This is the day where it goes from malarkey 1978 01:21:47,323 --> 01:21:48,950 to actually an investable asset. 1979 01:21:48,992 --> 01:21:52,746 Hoback: Bitcoin would now be a part of retirement funds and pensions. 1980 01:21:52,829 --> 01:21:55,582 Put Bitcoin in their 401(k)s. 1981 01:21:55,665 --> 01:21:58,209 Hoback: Solidifying its role as digital gold. 1982 01:21:59,961 --> 01:22:02,839 โ™ชโ™ช 1983 01:22:02,881 --> 01:22:04,341 It seemed so long as Bitcoin 1984 01:22:04,424 --> 01:22:07,344 didn't compete with the US dollar, 1985 01:22:07,385 --> 01:22:10,180 so long as governments could monitor every transaction... 1986 01:22:10,221 --> 01:22:12,349 Let's do a central bank digital currency. 1987 01:22:12,432 --> 01:22:13,683 Are you there? 1988 01:22:13,725 --> 01:22:15,060 Yes, I think it's time. 1989 01:22:15,393 --> 01:22:19,564 Hoback: ...so long as Bitcoin didn't function like digital cash, 1990 01:22:19,647 --> 01:22:21,399 it would be allowed. 1991 01:22:21,483 --> 01:22:23,026 Because the Small Blocker solution 1992 01:22:23,109 --> 01:22:25,028 kind of required government permission. 1993 01:22:25,111 --> 01:22:27,864 Taaki: Those people who are like, "We need Bitcoin 1994 01:22:27,906 --> 01:22:29,699 "to become, like, well-established, 1995 01:22:29,783 --> 01:22:31,618 become accepted by the banks," 1996 01:22:31,701 --> 01:22:34,371 they didn't realize that they were, like, cutting this deal 1997 01:22:34,454 --> 01:22:36,873 which would compromise some Bitcoin's values. 1998 01:22:36,956 --> 01:22:40,210 Hoback: In fact, Maxis seemed more concerned 1999 01:22:40,293 --> 01:22:41,670 with Bitcoin hitting a million dollars 2000 01:22:41,753 --> 01:22:43,129 than being usable as cash. 2001 01:22:43,213 --> 01:22:45,048 Mow: To get to one million, we should be going up, 2002 01:22:45,131 --> 01:22:47,050 on average, 10k a day. 2003 01:22:47,550 --> 01:22:49,719 Hoback: And if Bitcoin hits a million dollars, 2004 01:22:49,803 --> 01:22:51,721 then Satoshi becomes a trillionaire. 2005 01:22:51,805 --> 01:22:54,182 O'Leary: And there has been rumors 2006 01:22:54,224 --> 01:22:55,934 that maybe Satoshi will weigh in. 2007 01:22:56,017 --> 01:22:58,144 Hoback: With the stakes so high, 2008 01:22:58,228 --> 01:23:00,021 and with Bitcoin being woven into 2009 01:23:00,105 --> 01:23:02,107 the fabric of the financial system, 2010 01:23:02,190 --> 01:23:04,317 affecting everyone, 2011 01:23:04,401 --> 01:23:06,986 perhaps the question of Satoshi's identity 2012 01:23:07,070 --> 01:23:09,906 was more pressing than ever. 2013 01:23:09,948 --> 01:23:13,201 (dramatic music playing) 2014 01:23:18,081 --> 01:23:19,499 (tense sting) 2015 01:23:21,084 --> 01:23:23,336 (birds flapping) 2016 01:23:32,929 --> 01:23:34,848 Peter's never taken you on one of his... 2017 01:23:35,223 --> 01:23:38,476 -caving adventures before, Adam? -No. 2018 01:23:39,978 --> 01:23:41,980 Civilization's ruins, eh? (laughs) 2019 01:23:42,063 --> 01:23:44,816 -Hoback: (laughs) Yeah. -End days. 2020 01:23:44,899 --> 01:23:48,194 Hoback: When you look out on all this, uh, abandoned shit, 2021 01:23:48,278 --> 01:23:49,946 what does it make you think of? 2022 01:23:49,988 --> 01:23:52,657 Maybe, um, a more decentralized future? 2023 01:23:53,033 --> 01:23:54,784 Geopolitically. 2024 01:23:54,826 --> 01:23:57,454 There's something to be said for not breaking what-- 2025 01:23:57,495 --> 01:24:00,457 Todd: There's something to be said for exploring this great place. 2026 01:24:00,540 --> 01:24:01,958 -Back: Okay. -Todd: Without dying. 2027 01:24:02,042 --> 01:24:03,835 (Todd laughs) 2028 01:24:04,836 --> 01:24:08,506 Hoback: So, there's a lot of things that point to you, 2029 01:24:08,590 --> 01:24:10,550 Adam, being Satoshi, 2030 01:24:10,633 --> 01:24:14,137 and I had been spending some time trying to disprove that. 2031 01:24:14,220 --> 01:24:15,722 You know, like the Wikipedia edits? 2032 01:24:15,805 --> 01:24:18,141 Back: It was because I was like, why are you deleting this? 2033 01:24:18,224 --> 01:24:20,560 Bitcoin is a big deal. It's like a clever invention, right? 2034 01:24:20,643 --> 01:24:23,646 Hoback: You added suspects for Satoshi. 2035 01:24:23,730 --> 01:24:25,231 -Really? -Hoback: Yeah. 2036 01:24:25,315 --> 01:24:27,817 Well, don't-don't just agree with him. Ask for a proof. 2037 01:24:27,859 --> 01:24:30,695 That doesn't seem like something very advisable to do. 2038 01:24:32,030 --> 01:24:33,281 There's, like, old emails with you 2039 01:24:33,615 --> 01:24:36,701 commenting on Bitcoin in pretty detailed terms. 2040 01:24:36,785 --> 01:24:38,578 -I mean-- -Hoback: It doesn't mean that you're Satoshi. 2041 01:24:38,661 --> 01:24:40,455 -It just means that you were... -Yeah. Well, I think-- 2042 01:24:40,497 --> 01:24:42,374 Hoback: ...you were engaged before you say you were engaged. 2043 01:24:42,457 --> 01:24:44,918 Anyway, like, you're missing the biggest piece of evidence 2044 01:24:45,001 --> 01:24:46,378 that he's Satoshi of all. 2045 01:24:46,461 --> 01:24:48,254 Which is that he gets on the Bitcoin Talk 2046 01:24:48,338 --> 01:24:50,173 in, what, 2012 or so? 2013? 2047 01:24:50,256 --> 01:24:52,008 -'13. Mm. -Yeah, '13. 2048 01:24:52,092 --> 01:24:53,093 And, like, he's clueless! 2049 01:24:53,176 --> 01:24:54,552 Doesn't know anything about Bitcoin! 2050 01:24:55,095 --> 01:24:56,513 Hoback: This wasn't the first time 2051 01:24:56,596 --> 01:24:58,306 Peter had pointed to this evidence. 2052 01:24:58,348 --> 01:25:00,266 Best evidence of him being Satoshi. 2053 01:25:00,350 --> 01:25:02,268 -Of not being Satoshi. -Todd: Being Satoshi. 2054 01:25:02,352 --> 01:25:05,855 Hoback: So, was his goal to out Adam as Satoshi? 2055 01:25:05,897 --> 01:25:08,858 It's hard to know, right? These agencies are sneaky. 2056 01:25:08,900 --> 01:25:12,195 Hoback: Months earlier, I began looking into Peter Todd, 2057 01:25:12,237 --> 01:25:14,406 trying to understand his motives. 2058 01:25:14,489 --> 01:25:17,033 In particular, I'd focused on the leaked email exchange 2059 01:25:17,117 --> 01:25:20,328 between Peter Todd and John Dillon, 2060 01:25:20,370 --> 01:25:22,622 the supposed government agent who had offered Peter 2061 01:25:22,706 --> 01:25:26,292 that ridiculous $500 reward to create replace-by-fee. 2062 01:25:26,376 --> 01:25:29,087 John Dillon's email had supposedly been hacked, 2063 01:25:29,170 --> 01:25:31,214 and their emails were leaked. 2064 01:25:31,256 --> 01:25:33,091 I wanna talk through the stuff 2065 01:25:33,174 --> 01:25:34,718 we were going over the other night. 2066 01:25:34,759 --> 01:25:37,137 So, I called up an editor on my team 2067 01:25:37,220 --> 01:25:38,888 to talk through some of these clues. 2068 01:25:38,930 --> 01:25:40,557 This is an encrypted email chain, 2069 01:25:40,640 --> 01:25:43,393 and this is all you do with the hack 2070 01:25:43,435 --> 01:25:46,938 is release something that makes Peter Todd look pretty good? 2071 01:25:47,397 --> 01:25:51,026 Uh, that, to me, that's part of what started to really... 2072 01:25:51,109 --> 01:25:54,320 smell like maybe it was the same person. 2073 01:25:54,404 --> 01:25:55,822 Going through the archives, 2074 01:25:55,905 --> 01:25:57,907 I discovered I wasn't alone. 2075 01:25:57,991 --> 01:26:01,202 Gavin Andresen and some of the folks at Blockstream, 2076 01:26:01,244 --> 01:26:03,747 they also suspected they were the same person. 2077 01:26:03,788 --> 01:26:06,541 -I mean, why did you create the John Dillon handle? -I didn't. 2078 01:26:06,583 --> 01:26:08,168 -(Back laughs) -Hoback: Come on! 2079 01:26:08,251 --> 01:26:10,337 Nope. Not me. 2080 01:26:10,420 --> 01:26:13,173 Hoback: He was playing bad cop. You're playing good cop. 2081 01:26:13,256 --> 01:26:15,842 Back: So, my theory about John Dillon 2082 01:26:15,925 --> 01:26:18,178 is that Peter just enjoys perverse game theory. 2083 01:26:18,261 --> 01:26:20,930 I don't enjoy perverse game theory that much. 2084 01:26:21,014 --> 01:26:22,182 Although it was certainly interesting 2085 01:26:22,265 --> 01:26:23,391 to get contacted by the guy. 2086 01:26:23,933 --> 01:26:26,770 -Okay. -I certainly enjoyed it enough to respond to him. 2087 01:26:26,811 --> 01:26:30,315 -(film crew laughing wildly) -Back: Mm-hmm. 2088 01:26:30,398 --> 01:26:32,817 -Okay. -Hoback: The only person who believes Peter is Peter. 2089 01:26:32,901 --> 01:26:34,402 Yeah, that's how it should be. 2090 01:26:34,444 --> 01:26:36,654 Hoback: If Peter Todd wasn't communicating 2091 01:26:36,738 --> 01:26:39,532 with a government agent, and he just made this shit up, 2092 01:26:39,866 --> 01:26:42,619 then why concoct such an elaborate scheme? 2093 01:26:42,702 --> 01:26:45,246 So, I went through everything I could find on Peter Todd, 2094 01:26:45,330 --> 01:26:46,956 going back to his earliest messages 2095 01:26:46,998 --> 01:26:48,792 on the Bitcoin Talk forum. 2096 01:26:48,833 --> 01:26:50,043 Now, Peter likes to suggest 2097 01:26:50,126 --> 01:26:52,003 that he didn't really get involved with Bitcoin until... 2098 01:26:52,087 --> 01:26:54,881 2014. That's when I sort of "quit the day job," if you will. 2099 01:26:54,964 --> 01:26:56,758 Hoback: But, he had registered all the way back 2100 01:26:56,841 --> 01:26:58,802 in December of 2010. 2101 01:26:58,843 --> 01:26:59,844 The first thing he wrote 2102 01:26:59,928 --> 01:27:02,389 was just asking for an invite to something. 2103 01:27:02,472 --> 01:27:04,766 But the next post, a few days later, 2104 01:27:04,849 --> 01:27:06,309 was super technical. 2105 01:27:06,393 --> 01:27:09,646 And then, he doesn't post again until 2012. 2106 01:27:10,355 --> 01:27:12,649 But, it's that super technical post 2107 01:27:12,732 --> 01:27:17,445 that made me rethink just about everything. 2108 01:27:17,487 --> 01:27:20,740 I was so taken aback, I called my editor immediately. 2109 01:27:21,199 --> 01:27:24,494 Uh, so, I'm kind of embarrassed I missed this. 2110 01:27:25,370 --> 01:27:28,957 So, his first post is on December 7, 2010. 2111 01:27:28,998 --> 01:27:32,252 But then, three days later, uh, he makes another post. 2112 01:27:32,669 --> 01:27:34,170 editor (on phone): "Of course, to be specific, 2113 01:27:34,212 --> 01:27:36,339 "the inputs and outputs can't match exactly 2114 01:27:36,423 --> 01:27:39,175 if the second transaction has a transaction fee." 2115 01:27:39,217 --> 01:27:41,011 Seems like he's responding to something. 2116 01:27:41,052 --> 01:27:42,637 (sighs) Yeah. 2117 01:27:43,513 --> 01:27:45,348 editor (on phone): Oh, responding to Satoshi? 2118 01:27:45,432 --> 01:27:47,267 Hoback: He's replying to Satoshi, yeah. 2119 01:27:47,350 --> 01:27:49,394 Yeah, like an hour and a half later. 2120 01:27:50,562 --> 01:27:52,772 But, read it closely. 2121 01:27:53,314 --> 01:27:55,567 Is he responding, David? 2122 01:27:57,193 --> 01:27:59,362 Or is he continuing a thought? 2123 01:28:00,071 --> 01:28:02,615 (typing) 2124 01:28:08,872 --> 01:28:11,666 โ™ชโ™ช 2125 01:28:11,708 --> 01:28:16,254 So, Satoshi is proposing this, like, future scheme 2126 01:28:16,338 --> 01:28:18,715 that hasn't been invented yet. 2127 01:28:18,757 --> 01:28:20,675 And Peter Todd 2128 01:28:20,759 --> 01:28:22,886 just kinda continues that thought 2129 01:28:22,969 --> 01:28:24,596 an hour and a half later. 2130 01:28:25,263 --> 01:28:27,766 Someone who had just created this account, 2131 01:28:27,849 --> 01:28:30,477 and never posted about Bitcoin before, 2132 01:28:30,560 --> 01:28:33,396 was finishing Satoshi's sentences? 2133 01:28:34,814 --> 01:28:37,317 With a deep fucking knowledge of how, 2134 01:28:37,400 --> 01:28:39,903 wait for it, replace-by-fee works. 2135 01:28:39,944 --> 01:28:41,654 That thing that Peter Todd 2136 01:28:41,738 --> 01:28:44,449 would one day invent a character for. 2137 01:28:44,532 --> 01:28:46,242 It gets weirder though, David. 2138 01:28:46,326 --> 01:28:48,870 So, you know, we've thought that, like, 2139 01:28:48,912 --> 01:28:52,499 Satoshi dropped off of the Bitcoin Talk forums 2140 01:28:52,582 --> 01:28:54,501 because of WikiLeaks, right? 2141 01:28:54,584 --> 01:28:56,461 But, when would Satoshi 2142 01:28:56,544 --> 01:28:58,463 drop off the Bitcoin Talk forum? 2143 01:28:59,089 --> 01:29:00,924 editor David (on phone): Three days after Peter Todd 2144 01:29:00,965 --> 01:29:03,760 -replies or adds on to this post. -Hoback: That's right. 2145 01:29:03,843 --> 01:29:07,472 You'll never see another post from Satoshi ever again. 2146 01:29:07,764 --> 01:29:09,557 Three days after joining the forum, 2147 01:29:09,599 --> 01:29:13,103 Peter Todd finishes Satoshi's sentence, 2148 01:29:13,186 --> 01:29:14,938 and then disappears. 2149 01:29:14,979 --> 01:29:16,648 Alongside Satoshi. 2150 01:29:16,731 --> 01:29:18,274 โ™ชโ™ช 2151 01:29:18,316 --> 01:29:19,609 Here's what I think might have happened. 2152 01:29:19,693 --> 01:29:23,196 He created this new account. 2153 01:29:23,279 --> 01:29:24,823 Then, a couple days later, you know, 2154 01:29:25,198 --> 01:29:28,159 writes the Satoshi post, logs out... 2155 01:29:29,369 --> 01:29:31,121 logs back in, but doesn't log back in 2156 01:29:31,204 --> 01:29:32,747 with the correct account. 2157 01:29:32,789 --> 01:29:35,959 And he posts as Peter Todd instead of Satoshi. 2158 01:29:36,001 --> 01:29:39,129 And then, makes a couple more posts as Satoshi 2159 01:29:39,212 --> 01:29:40,463 'cause he doesn't want it to look like 2160 01:29:40,547 --> 01:29:41,881 it's directly related to this. 2161 01:29:41,965 --> 01:29:44,926 And Peter Todd just evaporates for two fucking years. 2162 01:29:46,511 --> 01:29:48,346 editor David (on phone): That's, that's insane. 2163 01:29:48,430 --> 01:29:49,806 It's insane. 2164 01:29:51,099 --> 01:29:52,809 It was just so suspicious, 2165 01:29:52,851 --> 01:29:56,146 I wanted Peter to explain how this was possible. 2166 01:29:56,187 --> 01:29:57,856 Satoshi's last post was, like, 2167 01:29:57,939 --> 01:30:00,567 one week after I signed up for Bitcoin Talk. 2168 01:30:00,942 --> 01:30:02,277 But... 2169 01:30:02,569 --> 01:30:04,446 Hoback: Right. And then, you disappeared. 2170 01:30:04,863 --> 01:30:08,158 Yeah, then I disappeared. (laughs) 2171 01:30:10,452 --> 01:30:12,996 And Satoshi disappeared at the same time. 2172 01:30:13,079 --> 01:30:13,955 Todd: Yeah. 2173 01:30:14,330 --> 01:30:16,666 I really should've paid more attention to Bitcoin early on, 2174 01:30:16,750 --> 01:30:18,543 but, you know, I had other stuff to do. 2175 01:30:18,626 --> 01:30:22,005 Y-You corrected Satoshi, but it kind of looks more like 2176 01:30:22,088 --> 01:30:25,091 you were continuing a thought of Satoshi. 2177 01:30:25,175 --> 01:30:28,011 Well, Satoshi made a little brain fart on, like, 2178 01:30:28,094 --> 01:30:30,013 how exactly transactions work, 2179 01:30:30,096 --> 01:30:32,974 and I corrected him on that very boring thing. 2180 01:30:33,183 --> 01:30:35,852 Hoback: Why didn't you delete the 2010 post? 2181 01:30:35,935 --> 01:30:37,187 Why would I? 2182 01:30:37,604 --> 01:30:38,730 Hoback: Well, 2183 01:30:39,022 --> 01:30:41,983 I mean, 'cause it, it just makes you look like 2184 01:30:42,025 --> 01:30:45,528 you had these deep insights into Bitcoin at the time and-- 2185 01:30:45,570 --> 01:30:47,530 Well, yeah. I'm Satoshi Nakamoto. 2186 01:30:47,614 --> 01:30:49,699 Hoback: I mean, 2187 01:30:49,741 --> 01:30:52,118 it's sort of the last thing you'd expect Satoshi to say. 2188 01:30:52,202 --> 01:30:53,328 Ah, but that's it. 2189 01:30:53,411 --> 01:30:54,704 That's like the meta level, right? 2190 01:30:54,746 --> 01:30:57,290 Because I know you would expect Satoshi Nakamoto 2191 01:30:57,374 --> 01:30:58,917 to delete the post. You just said, 2192 01:30:59,000 --> 01:31:01,169 "Why didn't Satoshi Nakamoto delete the post?" 2193 01:31:01,211 --> 01:31:04,047 -The post that was corrected? -Yeah, yeah, the correction post. 2194 01:31:04,130 --> 01:31:06,299 Right? But then, I did the next level of meta 2195 01:31:06,383 --> 01:31:09,803 and then didn't delete the post to go throw off people like you. 2196 01:31:10,804 --> 01:31:12,555 Hoback: Peter sure remembered this post 2197 01:31:12,639 --> 01:31:15,183 he'd made 13 years ago awfully well. 2198 01:31:16,267 --> 01:31:17,519 Yeah... 2199 01:31:17,560 --> 01:31:19,813 I don't know. You're-You're feeding him, like, 2200 01:31:19,896 --> 01:31:23,024 -footage that's just gonna be-- -Yeah. Oh, it's gonna be great. 2201 01:31:23,608 --> 01:31:25,110 Hoback: Peter Todd's strategy, 2202 01:31:25,193 --> 01:31:27,862 his game theory to throw people off the trail... 2203 01:31:27,904 --> 01:31:30,865 -Oh, no, I am Satoshi. I'm Satoshi Nakamoto. -(Hoback laughs) 2204 01:31:30,949 --> 01:31:32,075 Hoback: ...was so effective, 2205 01:31:32,158 --> 01:31:33,785 I hadn't really considered him a suspect. 2206 01:31:34,244 --> 01:31:36,663 In fact, just about no one had considered him. 2207 01:31:36,746 --> 01:31:39,332 So, you don't think it's Peter? You-- No way? 2208 01:31:39,416 --> 01:31:42,210 Peter's ruled out way, way early on. 2209 01:31:42,252 --> 01:31:43,586 Hoback: And even insinuating this 2210 01:31:43,628 --> 01:31:45,380 would get you laughed off the forums. 2211 01:31:45,463 --> 01:31:47,674 Peter Todd was just a little kid back then. 2212 01:31:47,757 --> 01:31:49,718 Hoback: So, was it possible that 2213 01:31:49,801 --> 01:31:52,429 Peter Todd could be Satoshi? 2214 01:31:52,512 --> 01:31:54,514 When you start to, like, run through all the, 2215 01:31:54,597 --> 01:31:55,724 all the scenarios, 2216 01:31:55,807 --> 01:31:58,643 it checks a lot of boxes. 2217 01:31:58,727 --> 01:31:59,936 Satoshi wrote messages 2218 01:32:00,020 --> 01:32:02,397 like they were on an academic calendar, 2219 01:32:02,480 --> 01:32:04,274 with more time in the summer. 2220 01:32:04,357 --> 01:32:06,443 I was off getting a fine arts degree. 2221 01:32:06,526 --> 01:32:09,946 Hoback: Then, there was the British or Canadian writing style. 2222 01:32:10,030 --> 01:32:12,657 Todd: There was something called the Toronto Caving Group. 2223 01:32:12,741 --> 01:32:16,369 Hoback: In 2001, when the dude is 15 or 16, 2224 01:32:16,453 --> 01:32:18,830 he is literally already trying to figure out 2225 01:32:18,913 --> 01:32:21,416 how to turn Hashcash into a currency. 2226 01:32:21,458 --> 01:32:23,585 After all, I did try to invent Bitcoin. 2227 01:32:23,626 --> 01:32:25,879 And I'm not bitter that Satoshi got there first. 2228 01:32:25,962 --> 01:32:28,715 You know, when I first saw the Bitcoin code, 2229 01:32:28,798 --> 01:32:31,217 I was like, this is not a professional programmer. 2230 01:32:31,301 --> 01:32:32,927 Hoback: Which Peter Todd wasn't. 2231 01:32:33,011 --> 01:32:35,764 Experienced C++ coders basically confirmed 2232 01:32:35,805 --> 01:32:37,599 that it could've been written by either of you. 2233 01:32:37,640 --> 01:32:41,686 -So, do you think I can write in C++? -Hoback: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. 2234 01:32:41,770 --> 01:32:44,397 Mm. That doesn't sound like you've done your research. 2235 01:32:44,481 --> 01:32:45,774 -(Todd laughs) -Yeah. 2236 01:32:46,107 --> 01:32:48,902 Hoback: But, that old resume he tried to scrub from the internet 2237 01:32:48,985 --> 01:32:52,489 showed that he'd coded a system in C++ from scratch. 2238 01:32:52,906 --> 01:32:54,657 Why bother lying about this? 2239 01:32:54,699 --> 01:32:56,785 So, he's done a bit of, bit of research. That's good. 2240 01:32:56,826 --> 01:32:59,496 Hoback: And if you were like, 22 when you created Bitcoin, 2241 01:32:59,537 --> 01:33:02,457 imagine what it would do to your psyche. 2242 01:33:02,499 --> 01:33:04,000 He's the contrarian of contrarians. 2243 01:33:04,084 --> 01:33:06,670 I-I think people often, often miss this nuance. 2244 01:33:06,753 --> 01:33:08,004 He always wants to make sure he can prove 2245 01:33:08,046 --> 01:33:09,506 that he's the smartest guy in the room. 2246 01:33:09,839 --> 01:33:11,132 Hoback: Well, I think if it was a team, 2247 01:33:11,174 --> 01:33:12,676 it wouldn't have been more than two people. 2248 01:33:12,759 --> 01:33:15,845 Didn't need even two people. One could have written it. 2249 01:33:15,887 --> 01:33:18,431 Hoback: But, who could Satoshi trust with Bitcoin's future? 2250 01:33:18,515 --> 01:33:20,225 Adam Back would keep the secret. 2251 01:33:20,558 --> 01:33:23,478 Hoback: Maybe the first guy that emailed back in 2008. 2252 01:33:23,520 --> 01:33:25,689 Or it could be somebody younger. 2253 01:33:25,772 --> 01:33:27,023 Hoback: The guy who, you know, 2254 01:33:27,065 --> 01:33:28,983 has sort of considered you like a son. 2255 01:33:29,025 --> 01:33:30,151 Remind me again, what's your source 2256 01:33:30,235 --> 01:33:31,778 for the "considered you like a son" thing? 2257 01:33:31,861 --> 01:33:34,114 Hoback: That was with you last time. 2258 01:33:34,197 --> 01:33:35,490 -Back: What? -No. 2259 01:33:35,532 --> 01:33:37,534 I think he thinks of you like a son. 2260 01:33:37,617 --> 01:33:38,827 A son. Yeah. 2261 01:33:38,910 --> 01:33:41,204 -(crosstalk) -No, sorry. No, no offense, 2262 01:33:41,246 --> 01:33:43,123 I'm much closer to Greg Maxwell than you. 2263 01:33:43,206 --> 01:33:44,666 Much closer. 2264 01:33:44,749 --> 01:33:48,420 Hoback: Greg Maxwell, who co-founds Blockstream with Adam Back. 2265 01:33:48,503 --> 01:33:49,713 This loose coupling isn't inherent. 2266 01:33:49,754 --> 01:33:51,965 You can sort of pick your degree of looseness. 2267 01:33:52,048 --> 01:33:53,466 Hoback: Keeping Peter at arm's length... 2268 01:33:53,550 --> 01:33:55,593 We talked about saying it would actually be much better 2269 01:33:55,677 --> 01:33:57,178 if I didn't work for Blockstream. 2270 01:33:57,262 --> 01:34:00,056 Hoback: ...in order to solve Bitcoin's technical problems, 2271 01:34:00,140 --> 01:34:01,933 which they couldn't do anonymously. 2272 01:34:02,017 --> 01:34:05,103 You need to give people space to actually work on these issues. 2273 01:34:05,186 --> 01:34:07,022 Hoback: But, they would need cover... 2274 01:34:07,063 --> 01:34:08,815 O'Leary: Whoever had access to Satoshi's email 2275 01:34:08,898 --> 01:34:11,693 was somewhat aligned with Blockstream. 2276 01:34:11,776 --> 01:34:13,528 Hoback: ...to push back against Gavin. 2277 01:34:13,611 --> 01:34:15,363 We'll definitely need to increase 2278 01:34:15,447 --> 01:34:16,906 the maximum block size. 2279 01:34:16,948 --> 01:34:18,241 That doesn't mean you're the leader. 2280 01:34:18,283 --> 01:34:20,452 That just means you're the guy who answers questions. 2281 01:34:20,535 --> 01:34:23,329 Hoback: And here's the big one. 2282 01:34:23,413 --> 01:34:27,292 What if the real reason for using the name Satoshi, 2283 01:34:27,375 --> 01:34:28,877 for the anonymity, 2284 01:34:28,918 --> 01:34:31,963 was so that people could take Bitcoin seriously? 2285 01:34:32,464 --> 01:34:34,924 So they could believe that it must have been created 2286 01:34:35,008 --> 01:34:37,677 by one of these famous cryptographers, 2287 01:34:38,887 --> 01:34:41,723 and not some kid still in school? 2288 01:34:43,016 --> 01:34:46,019 -So, here's what I think happened. -Todd: Hm? 2289 01:34:46,102 --> 01:34:48,605 -Possibly. Okay? -Todd: Possibly. 2290 01:34:48,646 --> 01:34:51,232 I think that John Dillon... 2291 01:34:51,316 --> 01:34:52,317 (Todd snickers) 2292 01:34:52,400 --> 01:34:55,612 ...was created so that you would have an excuse 2293 01:34:55,653 --> 01:34:58,073 -to make replace-by-fee. -(Todd laughing) 2294 01:34:58,156 --> 01:35:00,700 A concept which you had envisioned years earlier, 2295 01:35:00,784 --> 01:35:04,079 -but you needed some kind of cover in order to make. -(laughing harder) 2296 01:35:04,120 --> 01:35:07,207 And you also needed some cover for that 2010 post. 2297 01:35:07,290 --> 01:35:09,959 Todd: (laughing) 2010 post? Please. 2298 01:35:10,418 --> 01:35:12,295 Yeah, because I was Satoshi? 2299 01:35:12,337 --> 01:35:13,797 Hoback: I mean, yeah. 2300 01:35:13,880 --> 01:35:16,216 You know, you're very concerned about all the privacy stuff. 2301 01:35:16,299 --> 01:35:18,259 -(laughing) -So, you reach out to your old buddy Adam Back. 2302 01:35:18,301 --> 01:35:19,844 You say, we need to do something about this, 2303 01:35:19,928 --> 01:35:21,888 but we need to pay the devs. 2304 01:35:21,971 --> 01:35:23,515 But you can't join Blockstream 2305 01:35:23,598 --> 01:35:26,059 -because it would look too, uh, suspicious. -(laughing harder) 2306 01:35:26,142 --> 01:35:29,020 -So, you don't. -(sighs) I will admit, you're pretty creative. 2307 01:35:29,104 --> 01:35:31,147 You come up with some crazy theories. 2308 01:35:31,231 --> 01:35:32,399 It's ludicrous, 2309 01:35:32,482 --> 01:35:34,943 but it's the sort of theory someone who spends their time 2310 01:35:35,026 --> 01:35:36,903 as a documentary journalist would come up with. 2311 01:35:36,986 --> 01:35:38,905 So yeah, yeah. I'll say, of course I'm Satoshi, 2312 01:35:38,988 --> 01:35:40,031 and I'm Craig Wright. 2313 01:35:40,115 --> 01:35:41,991 And yes, I was definitely covering 2314 01:35:42,033 --> 01:35:43,827 that little bit about, you know, fees 2315 01:35:43,910 --> 01:35:45,662 to go pretend to be Satoshi. 2316 01:35:45,745 --> 01:35:48,123 Or not Satoshi, one or the other. (snickers) 2317 01:35:48,164 --> 01:35:51,835 Hoback: Well, why make up the whole John Dillon thing? 2318 01:35:51,918 --> 01:35:54,504 -Well, like I said, I'm not John Dillon. -Hoback: Okay. 2319 01:35:54,546 --> 01:35:57,048 Sorry. I'm not John Dillon. I don't know who that is. 2320 01:35:57,132 --> 01:35:58,925 I'll warn you. This is gonna be very funny 2321 01:35:59,009 --> 01:36:00,844 when you put this into the documentary 2322 01:36:00,927 --> 01:36:02,595 and a bunch of Bitcoiners watch it. 2323 01:36:02,679 --> 01:36:05,056 -Back: I think-- -Hoback: Well, I don't think they would be very happy 2324 01:36:05,140 --> 01:36:06,975 with this conclusion because you're pretty controversial 2325 01:36:07,058 --> 01:36:08,226 within the community at this point. 2326 01:36:08,309 --> 01:36:10,687 No, I-I suspect a lot of them will be very happy 2327 01:36:10,770 --> 01:36:12,022 if you go this route. 2328 01:36:12,063 --> 01:36:14,691 'Cause it's gonna be like yet another example 2329 01:36:14,733 --> 01:36:17,068 of journalists really missing the point, 2330 01:36:17,152 --> 01:36:18,403 in a way that's very funny. 2331 01:36:18,486 --> 01:36:19,946 Hoback: What is the point? 2332 01:36:20,030 --> 01:36:22,407 The point is just to make Bitcoin the global currency. 2333 01:36:22,490 --> 01:36:25,493 And people like you being distracted by nonsense 2334 01:36:25,535 --> 01:36:27,620 can potentially do good on that. 2335 01:36:27,704 --> 01:36:29,831 (somber music playing) 2336 01:36:32,334 --> 01:36:36,421 Hoback: And it seemed this plan was coming to life. 2337 01:36:36,504 --> 01:36:38,798 (applause) 2338 01:36:38,882 --> 01:36:40,008 With Wall Street's involvement 2339 01:36:40,091 --> 01:36:41,926 bringing Bitcoin to new heights... 2340 01:36:47,891 --> 01:36:50,894 Hoback: El Salvador found itself in the black. 2341 01:36:50,935 --> 01:36:53,563 Suddenly, presidents were taking Samson's calls. 2342 01:36:53,646 --> 01:36:54,981 (group speaking Spanish) 2343 01:36:55,065 --> 01:36:57,233 And Argentina's newly elected president 2344 01:36:57,317 --> 01:36:59,903 shut down its central bank and allowed people 2345 01:36:59,986 --> 01:37:02,030 to use Bitcoin however they wanted. 2346 01:37:02,113 --> 01:37:04,908 Bitcoin was advancing as a currency, 2347 01:37:04,949 --> 01:37:08,244 even if America throttled its use as digital cash. 2348 01:37:09,079 --> 01:37:12,624 Maybe it wasn't the design that made Bitcoin so unstoppable. 2349 01:37:13,166 --> 01:37:15,377 Maybe it was human nature. 2350 01:37:15,460 --> 01:37:17,587 Or just plain old greed. 2351 01:37:18,630 --> 01:37:20,173 Even Dr. Doom 2352 01:37:20,256 --> 01:37:22,967 launched his own blockchain-based token. 2353 01:37:24,469 --> 01:37:27,347 Craig Wright was proven to be a fraud in court, 2354 01:37:27,430 --> 01:37:29,808 but it required Adam to finally release 2355 01:37:29,891 --> 01:37:31,768 his emails with Satoshi. 2356 01:37:31,851 --> 01:37:33,603 He had been telling the truth. 2357 01:37:33,687 --> 01:37:36,773 And as more of Satoshi's conversations came to light, 2358 01:37:36,856 --> 01:37:39,109 so did the genius, 2359 01:37:39,192 --> 01:37:42,445 the struggles, and the immaturity. 2360 01:37:43,613 --> 01:37:45,281 But, what about the stash? 2361 01:37:45,365 --> 01:37:47,450 Well, you know my-- I-I mean, I don't know for sure, 2362 01:37:47,534 --> 01:37:49,035 but, like, my suspicion is 2363 01:37:49,119 --> 01:37:52,080 Satoshi did, in fact, go destroy all of Satoshi's ability 2364 01:37:52,163 --> 01:37:53,873 to prove who they were. 2365 01:37:54,249 --> 01:37:55,959 Hoback: But, they hadn't burned the coins. 2366 01:37:56,042 --> 01:37:57,585 (explosion blasts) 2367 01:37:57,669 --> 01:38:00,672 Or in a way, had they? 2368 01:38:00,755 --> 01:38:02,716 A few months after confronting Peter, 2369 01:38:02,799 --> 01:38:04,592 I came across this old chat log, 2370 01:38:04,634 --> 01:38:07,303 that someone probably shouldn't have recorded, 2371 01:38:07,387 --> 01:38:08,680 where Peter says, 2372 01:38:08,763 --> 01:38:10,890 "I'm probably the world-leading expert 2373 01:38:10,974 --> 01:38:12,934 "on how to sacrifice your Bitcoins. 2374 01:38:13,018 --> 01:38:15,687 "And I've done exactly one such sacrifice, 2375 01:38:15,770 --> 01:38:18,148 and I did it by hand." 2376 01:38:18,231 --> 01:38:19,274 โ™ชโ™ช 2377 01:38:19,357 --> 01:38:22,902 It was hard not to read this as an admission. 2378 01:38:23,737 --> 01:38:25,321 Like Peter wanted his inner circle 2379 01:38:25,363 --> 01:38:29,284 to trust that he had, in fact, sacrificed the Bitcoins, 2380 01:38:29,701 --> 01:38:31,953 and destroyed all access. 2381 01:38:32,704 --> 01:38:34,914 But, this wasn't proof. 2382 01:38:35,790 --> 01:38:37,834 It's Bitcoin. Don't trust, verify. 2383 01:38:37,876 --> 01:38:40,128 And sometimes, you can't verify. 2384 01:38:41,921 --> 01:38:43,340 Back: Mm-hmm. 2385 01:38:43,423 --> 01:38:45,675 Hoback: And if Peter Todd and his friends at Blockstream 2386 01:38:45,717 --> 01:38:48,428 were, in fact, behind Bitcoin, 2387 01:38:48,678 --> 01:38:51,097 would he remain an idealist? 2388 01:38:51,181 --> 01:38:52,974 Or was he still holding on 2389 01:38:53,016 --> 01:38:55,268 to the keys to the world's fortune? 2390 01:38:56,436 --> 01:38:58,730 Just in case. 2391 01:38:59,773 --> 01:39:03,026 (dramatic music playing) 2392 01:39:16,831 --> 01:39:20,377 โ™ชโ™ช 179908

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