Original subtitles

I want to be a jockey when I grow up, ya I want to be a jockey when I grow up

I'm down for Heathfield and

South of Amena...

we are going to Africa

and trying to teach people

I don't think you want to go to university

if you want to be an astronaut

I'd like to

find out all about the moon and all that

Is it important to fight? yes!

I want to be a jockey when I grow up, ya I want to be a jockey when I grow up

Tony was already an apprentice at Tommy Gosling's Racing Stables in Epsom

when he left school at fifteen.

this is a photo finish of

when I rode at Newbury

I'm the one with the white cap

I was beaten a length and a half for third

and I had a photo finish

so I took it out the box and kept it as a souvenir

What would you do if you don't make it as a jockey?

I don't know

if I knew I couldn't be one I'd get out of the game

I wouldn't bother

What do you think you would do then?

learn taxis

Tony didn't make it as a jockey.

He had three races, wasn't placed and gave it up.

At 21 he was 'doing the knowledge' 21

learning to be a London cabbie

I will be a cab driver and I know I will

and I'm going to prove every person who think I can't be a cab driver wrong

and I'm going to get that badge and put it right in their face

just to tell them how wrong they can be

and how under estimated I am

it's surprising who you pick-up, you see..

I once met Kojak, I picked him up

and Warren Mitchell or Alf Garnett, you know... Alf Garnett

and I said "oh Hello Warren, how are you mate? good to see ya."

so he ends up saying "I want to go to Langan's Brasserie

you know Stratton Street, Langan's"

so half way there I said listen, I said "Warren, it wouldn't...

I said "It wouldn't be you if you don't sort of..

come out with Alf you know, I mean.. give us a.. Alf

let's see how he's going you know"

so straight away he's brought Alf Garnett to life Alf Garnett

in the back of me cab

so

we are on the way to Langan's and all I can hear is Alf Garnett Alf Garnett

"you know... it's the labour government"

when we get there

I said "thanks Warren, terrific mate. 1.18 118

so he gave me exactly 1.18 118

listen, I said "I know you're Alf Garnett and you're having trouble.." Alf Garnett

I said "but I want you to become Warren Mitchell now..

my tip is 20 odd pence or whatever..." 20

he said "son..."

as Alf Garnett still Alf Garnett

"you know Alf's doing bad at the moment I can't afford it" Alf

and he walked away and like...

he done me like a kipper

What does it take to be a good cabbie?

I think myself, a happy-go-lucky character

and

take as much as what any other person couldn't take in a normal job because

it's a big world out there and everyone is a different character that I pick up

their attitudes... some of them like the city gents, the typical

"Waterloo, driver please, in five minutes"

I sort of say "Hold on mate I'll get my helicopter out of the boot."

I love being a taxi driver I like the outdoor life

the independance, there's no one to govern me or say

"you've got to be in at a certain time."

sometimes on Saturday mornings I go to the pictures

sometimes with my friends and sometimes with him

you don't! -I do!

she don't

I don't ever see ya!

you go to different pictures

Have you got a girlfriend? -no

Would you like to have a girlfriend?

no

do you understand 'the four F's?' F

find them, feed them and forget them

for the other F I'll let you use your own discrimination Ffuck

I mean...

this one

I tried the three F's F

but I couldn't forget her

I used to work in a pub

just on Friday nights

barmaids... barmaiding...

and then

and then from there one night I went to a discotheque

he was in the pub earlier on

afterwards we went to a discotheque and Tony was standing there

and I just... from there I just...

that was it

I couldn't get rid of him

And why did you fall in love with him?

I don't know

I don't know how you've put up with me for so long

sometimes I don't know how I stand him

but what is it that you love about... - I like his personality

it doesn't matter who it is he don't change for nobody

there's only one ambition really I want a baby son

if I see my baby son that is my ambition fulfilled

no one know that only you now

we've got two children Nicky's six and a half

Jodi's two and a half nearly three

and I'm having another one in March

Who looks after them? Or, do you share it up?

me basically, yeah

he does take them out quite a lot

but

telling offs and smacks is all left to me

I have to do all of that

he don't like smacking them

he don't like telling them off

unless it's really.. really.. - anything serious then I would

there you are... see that baby one?

So what advantages do you think you've had over

some of the other people we've filmed?

well.. academically, probably they've had more advantages over me

either by the fact they've had prep schools from a very early age

they've benefited by it which, you know, it tells obviously in this film

but as far as, you know, the stability and the backgrounds with their parents

they've missed out on that

Ton.. I don't like them near me

- come on - have a piece of bread each

here Jodi..

Jodi..

being in a prep school they're missing the love and the care of what every

Eastender always gets

you know, gives their children each time they come home from work

and the parents, you know

sometimes obviously are not going to be there cause they are away at prep school

they're missing

the love and affection you know, what they are craving for

when my kids are growing up, I want to see the change in them, all the time

so I have my own memories of when they was a kid and how they were

you know and what they were like

would everybody please sit round now and get on with their work?

I don't want to see any backs to me

there shouldn't be anyone turning around Tony, do you hear as well?

get on with your work in front

Tony!

don't turn around again!

education is just a thing to say "my son is higher than him"

or "my son had a better background than him"

I mean

I'm as good or even better than most of them people

especially on this program

I mean

I'm one of the tailenders you'll think oh the Eastend boy

he ain't got a no good education... but all of a sudden

the Eastend boy's got a car, motorbike and he goes to Spain every year

and whatever

and have I worked for it?

no, I'm here putting bets on

and you think "how does he do it?"

and there's a boy, who's he? and whatever

he's studying to be a professor, he's making up the things

where's the education, there's no education in this world

it's just one big rat race and you've got to

kill your man next to you to get in front of him

education, when I said "there's no education"

yes, there is an education I made a grave mistake in saying that

but, I didn't mean to say there's no education as far as academically

yes, there is

the area, the environment

and education makes a person have more opportunities in this world

you know, I mean that's.. that's obvious

Let's talk about the kids.

Do you want for them what you had for yourself?

In terms of schooling and everything?

you're talking about.. my childhood five years old upwards to 7, 8, 9 59

I had no money, my father had no money

I wore my brother's clothes for ten years

these hand-me-down's are sort of going on my arms with holes on them

I've never had any opportunities to better myself because I was a kid

I never knew no better

my mum and dad, you know

my dad's got.. you know he's.. he couldn't work

I'm not making a violin story out of this

I mean, that's the way it was?

and I'm more stronger

it happened that way I mean, I'm a more stronger person

I appreciate things more now

and now I'm in a position through my job

you know, to give my kids the life I never had like.. lovely clothes

I go to holidays, you know, I go to Portugal and I go to Spain

hopefully America next year

I mean, I want everything

I never had to go, you know, on my kids

to say, you know...

let them know the benefits of the nice life and what's it's all about

they're precious! "oh yes... oh yes... oh yes..."

they're nuts!

you just have to touch them...

yeah, they.. well, they can get what they want, can't they?

If you've got to work for it

and it's them that can just ask for money and get it

and they can buy what they want

I've learned through driving a cab that people are individuals

whatever they are.. upperclass or, you know, middleclass or..

as in my case, you know, an Eastender

but

I'm only glad, you know, that I've found out the difference at an early age

so i can judge people..

on what they are rather than who they are

I'm not a politician so let them worry about what's coming for the next day

all I understand is

dogs, prices, girls, knowledge, roads, streets, squares and

mum and dad and love

that's all I understand that's all I want to understand

four and a half fifties, four and a half fifties, four and 501

At 21 he was earning a bit extra as a bookie's runner at Hackney Wick. 21

What do they call you here?

I reckon a pest, or something like that

I don't mean to make a nuisance of myself

I mean if for other patrons of the place

they don't want to see a little boy nipping between their feet

running, putting a bet on here for a face

they don't understand, they think "cor what's he doing is he mad?"

I mean, I walk up there and I order the teas

there could be eight people in front of me, I just go...

"can I have a tea please.. tea pleas" five times, "tea please.. tea please.."

and they've gotta serve me before them or get rid of me

do you understand?

so that's how you've got to do it

I'm in two golf societies

and each month, all of the members of each society meet to play a game of golf

and who are the guys you play with?

well, they are mostly publicans or taxi drivers, you know

and..

we always end up, you know, have a small bet

Do you like the whole social side of it? - only with my mates because

on a golf course it becomes the very.. snooty type, you know

I mean, I understand they've got to pay 400 a year for membership 400

and they don't, you know, really want anyone without any etiquitte

to go on the golf course and ruin their so called golf course, right?

that's good.. great shot.. great shot..

it does get a bit.. a pain sometimes you know when

when they keep saying "excuse me sir, are you a member?"

it comes out like that

obviously etiquette's etiquette

so you've got to conduct yourself on these type of courses

cause I think..

you're a bit smaller than most people

you try and hit the ball hard

you've got to just.. it'll get there

where'd he go? - I'm over here

oh.. I missed that one - unlucky.. keep hold of her

- it's about an eight to the.. - too much mate.. too much

no it ain't.. no it ain't.. no.. Ton.. hit an eight

it's definitely an eight - no that's too much club Ken

- eight, hit an eight - no.. no.. give us a nine mate

nine, I think that's about right - if you hit a nine, hit it to the right

that's it.. that's it.. that's perfect..

great shot

that's a great shot

now I, am a young fella and I've come to you

I heard that you are a big successful taxi driver - you want advice?

- yes I...

- I've been a film extra now for six years

It may not go no futher I mean I'm just..

having acting lessons..

- you give me the benefit of all of your experience

alright? now you've got to feel pretty big, bigger than me

- just go? - right there! here we go!

- tell me son, what do you want to be a cab driver for mate?

- well, make a lot of money you know, have a good life

- son, look at me, I might be a successful business man

I might have the suit.. I might have the..

all the holidays in Spain every year but son it's hard work out there mate

- you're not reaching me yet - not getting to you

- no, you're not getting to me, alright? now be bigger, dominate me, alright?

- son! - yeah?

son, it's a big world out there and obviously I'm not..

I can't get into it Warren - alright, don't worry

- when I was in The Sweeney and when I was in Churchill: The Wilderness Years The Sweeney1975 Churchill: The Wilderness Years1981

I see the actors and I thought, like you know

it's not quite easy to act on stage

cause it's you know, you need time and dedication, it's very hard

- son! tell me why do you want to be a taxi driver!

well you know you've got success

- don't let.. don't let looks go impressing... I mean, listen

- What excites you about acting?

I like it, I mean, I think of me self, you know

I can do that, I still want to have a go of it, I mean nothing for sort of

fame or fortune or anything like that

big hollywood and bright lights

it's nothing like that, just a side line

So, what drives you then through all of these various ambitions?

it's a philosophy of not keeping still, I mean..

I'm a very overactive type of person, I mean..

I like to feel that I don't want to keep still

because life, you know, don't wait for nobody so you've gotta cram it in

as much as you can before your days are numbered

I mean, I may be a happy-go-lucky type of fellow, which I am

I'm an Eastender which the attitude is, "allo' mate, alright, how are ya?"

type of thing

I wouldn't want to lose that

How long are you going to be a cab driver?

Is this what you want to do for the rest of your life?

well, at the moment, I'm very happy driving a cab

but..

my wife and I always considered owing our own pub

so obviously, I think, within two or three years

once I get financially straightened out

I'm going to have a go at being a publican

and if I don't like it

say, if I give it a go for a year or even six months

if I don't like being a publican

I'm in a good position to say get rid of the pub and go back to taxi driving

I don't want to change because if I change

it proves that Tony Walker was all fake

fifty five to twenty, Boris

- What are the best times for you?

two, two really the best..

time is when the kids.. the first baby was born

the next one, obviously, Jodi

but my greatest fulfillment in life

when I.. when I rode at Kempton

in the same race as Lester Piggott

I was a naive, wet behind the ears, apprentice

and the governor told me "you've got to ride son"

"Friday, you've got to lose x-amount of weight"

which I did.. eight pounds in four days 47.264

and he says like, I go in there, and they're all there, you know

I'm part of it

all my years, from seven, all my ambition is fulfilled in one moment

when the longfellow comes out and I'm in with him, like in the same..

the starter is calling out to register the names

and he'll sortta go like "Piggott, draw, eight.. Walker, draw, sortta ten" 8 10

and your idol, like, you're there and the big man's there, I mean

money in the whole world couldn't buy that proudest day of my life

which.. my ambition fulfilled to the highest level

and

I eventually finished last

tailed off obviously, but it didn't make any difference to me

just to be part of it, be with the man himself

couldn't buy it, that was the proudest day of my whole life

We are going to Africa...

and trying to teach people...

who are not civilized

to be..

more or less..

good

no, don't want to be a missionary because

I just can't talk about it to people

you know.. I am interested in it myself but..

I wouldn't be very good at it, at all..

- Yes Sir!

Mohan Ali - Yes Sir!

Kasim Mahir - Yes Sir!

Oscar Ali - Yes Sir!

Nasril - Yes Sir! Sultan - Yes Sir!

Abdul Khair

- I was working at an insurance company at the time

and I decided to go into teaching without any experience at all

and I didn't think they'd allow somebody to walk off the street into a classroom

6 times 3 is 18, shared by 2 is 9, plus 7 is 16, so you put a 16 there 6318 29 716 16

- they were crying out for most teachers, they interviewed me

they phoned me up the next day and said "would I like the job?"

I said "yes," within five weeks..

I was in a classroom

they took one look at me and thought it was christmas, I think

What's the most enjoyable thing about teaching?

just being a part of the pupils advancement

and learning and watching them understand more

and being more confident

then, getting some enjoyment and satisfaction from mathematics

After working in the city for three years,

Bruce Started teaching at Tony's old school in the east end of London.

He lives in a local council flat within walking distance of the school.

Holden, let's hear the present tense of 'evasto'

Evasto, evastas, evas..

evastant

evastamus, evastatis, evastant

yes, speak up

they don't, sort of, enforce..

being upper class and..

things like that.. at St. Paul's, you know they..

suggest that you don't have long hair and they do get it cut if..

and..

they teach you to be reasonably well mannered

but not too sniff on the poorer people

When we filmed him at 21, Bruce was in his last year at Oxford reading maths. 21

and you can show that this is irreducible

then you do a transformation on this polynomial, x=t+2 x=t+2

- good, that's a nice way of doing it, particularly using Eisenstein down here

because his test is very powerful - yes

It's so different from your own education

where you're teaching now, why?

general education is.. better for society, I think

public schools are divisive

that's with no statement about my education

my education was academically excellent

and I am very grateful for it

I think there is a class society and I think..

public schools may..

help its continuance

- see you're in the lead, you see..

because DSE Cabs have got profit of 2 pounds and GOODB Cabs got no profit at all DES2 GOODB

okay? now can you explain that just to Abdul

because I want him to understand what it is..

I don't know whether..

I said, "right, I must do something which is

against what I've been brought up to do" or whatever...

I don't know, I just found something I find rewarding

I didn't agree with the conservatives about what they're doing with the

black people, you know racial policy

Do you have to defend immigration to a lot of people in this area?

yes, I think you do but

those who say "there are too many coming in" and so on

I think, really are uneducated about the whole question

they should see the positive benefits that they are having in this country

and see that as a result of all of this immigration

they are not being denied opportunities

it's not the fault of immigrants that there is unemployment

it's part of a political parties responsibility is to explain that

and show people what is the more truthful way

of representing the situation

none of the parties seem to agree with me

and I think if I had voted I'd have voted labour

I am about the only socialist in my village

and I go into the pub and..

sort of expect to stand up and defend all socialist policies

sort of, this is the village socialist

no, village idiot, sorry

I just see their lack of opportunities for

a lot of people, obviously, unemployment is a great

feature in many people's lives and many family's lives

and..

teaching children, sometimes you wonder

what's going to happen to them?

it seems to me that

the leader of the country at the moment should be one of the most unpopular

person's in the country

and yet she gets away with everything, um..

she.. as far as I can see has done lots of damage

and yet..

nobody, nobody can oppose her

my heart's desire is to see my daddy who is six thousand miles away 696

and I can remember being happy there I can remember..

also being miserable because I can remember crying

- hold steady!

you know, I always seemed to be beaten on and I could never understand why

Did it give you an overdeveloped sense of authority?

if you look at society in general, I've always probably

been on the side of authority

and you know, it's been, it's been..

an education learning that authority can be bad

and.. can be corrupt

well my girlfriend is in Africa

and I won't... don't think I'll have another chance of seeing her again

Have you go a girlfriend?

no.. not yet

I'm sure it will come

but not yet

I think I would very much like to..

become involved in a family like my own family for a start

that's a need I feel I ought to fulfill and would like to fulfill

and would do it well

I mean, I do think a lot of people think too much about it

What happened when you burnt your fingers?

I'd rather not talk about it really

well no in fact I don't really mean that

I don't mean I don't want to talk about it

it's just I'd need quite a long time to think about it really

I think I possibly get a little serious

and uh..

don't quite understand the modern..

sort of..

way of behaving, the modern manner..

I think I'm a little old fashioned

at three o' clock I'm going to come and pick you up from Arts

you'll only have one art lesson

so if you're art teacher forgets at five to three 2:55

ask her to say we should be packing away and I'll come and get you

So there you were, you went to a posh preparatory school

and a major public school and to Oxford

And now, you're in a council flat teaching in this

school in the Eastend of London.

You don't feel any sense of disappointment?

no because what I am trying to do at the moment and achieve is difficult

It may not sound difficult in the sense that you could sum up what I do

quite simply

But behind all of that, it is very difficult and..

I certainly find it satisfying achieving successes

there may come a time

when I decide I can't do it and that's not necessarily a weakness that's..

that may be a strength that you realize

you can't do it as well as you would wish

I think the most important thing in the world is everyone should know about God

It all springs from..

having God and Christ I suppose

that.. you try do that as best as posttible and let that

lead your actions in life

Does it sadden you when you meet people who don't believe in Christianity?

yes, if they dismiss it casually, if they dismiss it

as just being something..

"well we know about that, we got a bit about that at school

and it doesn't really mean very much"

then it does sadden me because it's much much more than that

What is it about that's important to you?

well, the belief in..

the belief in goodness and in love as being two

well.. great positive forces in that..

you know people..

well, just the simple belief like a good act is never wasted

certainly you can observe somebody when they are seven

and identify particular things which maybe are then always with them..

whatever else happen to them

people possible say I am little to innocent at times or naive

I used to get worried about this and think

perhaps I ought not to be taken in or deceived or..

I'm not talking about love now, I'm just talking about generally speaking

but um..

I feel that's a strength in a way

if there are people who are willing to trust

then..

we should be encouraged

Tell me, do you have any boyfriends Suzi?

Ummm..

yes -Tell me about him?

well, he lives up in Scotland and I think he's thirteen 13

and I'm rather lonely up there because he usually goes to school

but we usually play till about half past six when he comes home from school

then we go in and then..

he goes home to do his homework

Have you got any boyfriends Suzi?

What is your attitude towards marriage? For your self?

Well, I don't know I haven't given it a lot of thought

because I'm very very cynical about it

but then, you know, you get a certain amount of faith restored in it

well, I mean, I've got friends who've

and their parents are happily married and so it does put faith back into you

but me, myself, I'm very cynical about it

we were friends for about two years

Rupert and Suzi were married five year ago.

and.. I think the nice thing was that we knew each other very well before

we knew quite a lot of the faults of..

each other

which I think's very important

I don't sort of sit down and think, you know, analyze marriage

it's not something I've had to come up and think about

or that I was going to get married

and I have no desire to at the moment

I think.. twenty is far too young 20

I suppose twenty-two is considered quite young 22

I felt it was the right time

I don't see what I would have gained by waiting another three years

What gave you that feeling?

I just felt I was doing the right thing

which as you said was extraodinary when..

only eighteen months before I was very anti it 18

I came to London when I left school after Paris

and at the moment I could never live in the country I am happier down here

the country is nice for four days and you can go for healthy long walks

but I Imean.. I could never live up their now

They live in a small village near Bath

where Rupert is a partner in a firm of solicitors.

I had seven years up in London I suppose it was fantastic but I just had enough

it's a much slower way of life down here and I'd had enough of the rat race

when I get married I'd like to have two children

I'm not very children minded at the moment

and I don't know if I ever will be

What do you think about them?

well, I don't like babies

What was the biggest shocks to you

when you were suddenly confronted

with a small baby that you had to be responsible for?

panic set in, I think

that I wasn't going to be able to cope

Do you want a nanny to look after them? Or, do you want to look after them?

I want a nanny to look after them

I felt that we'd taken the decision to bring a child into this world

and I feel that I wanted to bring him up, not somebody else

I thought it's my responsibility to start him off

whether that will make a difference to how he turns out, I don't know

I just felt I wanted to do it

Is it everything you wanted?

for the moment, yes I mean, I don't think I'll have any more

the reason, that I'll get pleasure out of these two

but I can't see me going on and on and on

with sort of four or five children 45

I think I'd feel that I'd want to move on and try and do something else

when I leave this school I'm down for Heathfield and South of Amena

and then maybe I may want to go to a university

but I don't know which one yet

I'd like to do..

a course on typing or something like that

I left school when I was sixteen and went to Paris 16

went to secretarial college and got a job

What made you decide to `leave school and go to Paris?

I just wasn't interested in school and just wanted to get away

And why did you choose Paris?

I don't know, it was my parents really

now I've got to a stage in my life where I've got to make my own decisions

you've got to learn to fend for yourself one day

I went to prep school boarding when I was nine

Rupert went at eight and the both of us hated it

I hated my prep school

I just feel it's too young to send a child off

and we both feel that we would never send Thomas and Oliver off

probably maybe until they're thirteen 13

I think eight is much too young 8

so we will definitely keep them at home

Do you still want to send them in the private sector to school?

I think we will, yes

but.. as I said not until they are thirteen 13

Why do you choose the private sector opposed to the state?

I suppose it's what we had, it's what we know

I think both of us probably were very sheltered

it's only having been abroad that you can appreciate more

that people are very different cultures are different

but I think as I was growing up I think probably I was far too sheltered

What do you think about making this program?

I think it's just ridiculous, I don't see any point in doing it

I've been very lucky up to a certain point but everyone has their bad times

I'm really just beginning and I'm really young and..

and I'll probably have a lot worse that what I've been through now

when you're a child you always think how nice

it would be to be grown up and independent..

but there are times when I wish I was three again

It just seems a miracle to me that when I last saw you at twenty one you were.. 21

nervous, you were chain smoking, you were uptight and now you seem happy.

What's happened to you over these past seven years?

I suppose Rupert

I'll give you some credit

I'm now chain smoking

no, I didn't know where I was going at twenty one 21

I mean, I suppose I thought I was reasonably happy at twenty one

but I had no kind of direction, no..

I obviously hadn't found what I'd wanted

I don't think most people have at twenty one 21

you're still very very young

As a teenager Suzi spent her school holidays on her father's estate

in Scotland

What sort of things do you do?

ride, swim, play tennis, ping-pong

I might play croquet

things like that

What about the social life?

what in Perthshire? it's quite fun

well with any child going through their parents

spitting up at age fourteen, you're at a very vulnerable age 14

age and it does cut you up but..

nut you know, you get over it, it's not..

There's no point in them staying together for me, because it was worse

I mean, the rides...

it's worse

if two people can't live together there's no point making themselves

my father died three years ago

it's very hard to describe to somebody how you just take the loss

It is terribly hard and even now I still can't believe my father's not here

it's still sinking in I think even after two and a half years.

he was off in Scotland

It was in that very bad winter of '81 81

and we were literally snowed in and I couldn't get out

and it was three weeks before Thomas was born and..

and I wasn't allowed to fly, no airline would take me

and the trains were blocked from the snow

and so I couldn't get there

and I feel..

I still feel guilty that I didn't try and um..

get myself out of here to go, but..

you know, when you're told you could endager a

babies life, you have to rather sit.. sit still

the death of one of your close family is probably something you don't ever

get over and it's a different kind of

problem than anything else

and it is hard to come to terms with

And it was really last year that it sunk in

that he really wasn't around anymore

What do you want most out of life?

to be happy, and get on with life

I mean, I don't want to just sit back and let it all whiz past

I mean, you don't know how long you've got your life for

you know, you could get run over by a bus tomorrow

so you've got to make the most of it while you've got it

Do you have any fears for the future? For yourself?

no, not so much for myself at all

I feel if I was going to have fallen by the wayside, I'd have done it by now

I think probably I'm..

too staid now to do that

but maybe I'm wrong

when I grow up

I'd like to..

find out all about the moon and all that

At seven, Nick, a farmer's son was at a one room village school in the Dales. 7

I said I was interested in physics and chemistry

well, I'm not going to do that here

At 14, he was going to a Yorkshire boarding school, 14

and at 21, was reading physics at Oxford. 21

- plug it in - we'll give it a whirl

So what career are you going to pursue?

It depends on whether I'll be good enough to do what I want to really do

I would like, if I can, to do research

He is now in America, an assistant professor at the University of Wisconsin

earning 30,000 dollars a year 3

The gas in these experiments is at a temperature

comparable with that of the sun

whereas in a power reactor it would be maybe 10 times

the temperature of the sun and we're trying to induce that gas to fuse

the fusion reaction gives off energy and produces the power that would

be turned into electrical energy and sent out to the consumer

how hot is it in there?

in there, it's at about ten million degrees

Nick is a Nuclear Physicist.

He's using these high temperatures to fuse atoms.

To try to produce energy which is free from radioactivity.

..has to be precisely coordinated with the positive..

I finished my degree in physics and I went on to do a p.h.d.

and having got the p.h.d.

after it took two and a half years to get that which was relatively quick

I went to work at

the United Kingdom Atomic Energy Authorities Cullum Laboratory

which is where they do fusion research

and that is what I've been aiming to do throughout my p.h.d.

but I..

but I found when I got there that I got a big shock when I found that my

standard of living went down when I started work

so when some people here offered me a job I thought this might be

a good opportunity to go somewhere else where the research environment

was a bit more vigorous

so I came here in November of 1982, into a blizzard 198211

the university is substantially different from an English university

for several reasons

it's a much bigger university

Oxford had 10,000 people, this has 40,000 people

I guess the mixture of people who come here are different

a far bigger fraction of the population go to university here

Oxford is full of people who really are trying to prove something, I suppose

or be something

a lot of people with social or intellectual pretensions

you're less aware of that sort of thing here

On the other hand, the American system

is much more like the comprehensive system

England would set out to try and be; it takes many more people

and gets a huge section of the population

to a level where they're really

technically very competent and can go out and make Silicon Valley work

Do you have a girlfriend?

I don't want to answer that

I don't want to answer those kinds of questions

I thought that one would come up because when I was...

when I was doing the other onensomebody said "what do you think about girls?"

I said, "I don't answer questions like that" is that the reason you're asking?

oh, I thought so

the best answer would be to say that I dont answer questions like that but..

It's what I said when I was seven and it's still the most sensible but I mean 7

what about them?

Nick was only 17 when I first met him and I knew he was a nice person 17

I find him very attractive, and..

he uses intelligence in his relationship with me which is very important

a lot of people can be very bright..

Nick and Jackie met while they were students at Oxford

Jackie is doing a post-graduate course in Business Studies

What about you Nick? Why did you marry Jackie?

Because she's..

I find her attractive, she's bright and independent and..

If you've been somebody who..

that had fixed ideas of a woman's role in marriage

that meant dinner on the table at 6 every evening..

didn't I tell you about that?

I think we would've had problems or if one of us had not wanted children

when I grow up

I'd like to..

find out all about the moon and all that

Where did you get all this brain-power from?

all this brain-power? I don't know, did it just happen?

all this brain-power.. that's a hard one to answer

because first I have to accept that I've got all this brain-power

and that's not the sort of thing I tend to go around saying

but I've always been interested in, from a very early age in..

technical or scientific things

when I was very young, I had a picture-book about "the planets"

and I thought this was wonderful and I've just been..

interested in that sort of thing and reading technical or scientific material

for a long, long time

I was the only child my age in my village

but I mangaged to spend my time talking to adults who were around

If one is wandering down a country lane

there is an awful lot to look at in the world around you

I remember looking at various natural phenomena

and being intrigued to try and understand what made them tick

one time I was particularly wrapped up in how a particular cloud

which was a very unusual shape you know, and how did that work?

and that was the sort of thing that made me want to go further into

natural sciences

I think that if I'd been in a city I'd probably would've had more interaction

with people and might have developed more..

skills in dealing with other kids

trying to become a reasonably well-adjusted person was for me

a bit of a struggle for awhile I was given a fantastic opportunity

when I went to university and that really saved my bacon

They'd like to..

to come out for a holiday in the country, we we like..

when I'd like to have a holiday in the town

I've been to Leeds a couple of times and.. I haven't been to Manchester

I went to London with the other...

when you did the first program but that's the only time I've been..

What attracts you about America?

it's an exciting place to be, there's a lot going on

in terms of research, and other things

but I really came here to do research but..

there are more opportunities and just a general feeling of more going on

than I had previously

this place is less hidebound, less bureaucratically tied down

so it's much easier to go out and get things done than in England

Do you get lonely here?

You just tend to get stuck here into your

everyday routine and you don't think about it

when you call home, then you realize how far away you are

and now it seems acute because our families are getting older

even if you think in terms of seeing them

once every two years

- that's not so many times, is it - you're thinking only about ten times

and that's awful, when you think in those terms and realize...

you really are in exile

Does this put a pressure on your relationship?

no, I think it binds us together

because we just have one another over here

In 21, some of the people were saying 21

that they felt it was immoral to emigrate

immoral to leave.

Do you have any feelings about that since you're the one whose left?

in my position

I don't feel that I'm letting England down

because I don't think that England particularly wanted me there

doing what I was doing

It had trained me marvelously

I'd gone through a wonderful educational system

particularly Oxford was a fantastic experience socically

again, it was a great place to try and develop emotionally

and the academic standards there are absolutely superb

having trained in a very academic fashion there

and I then went out to try and do something with all that training and

found that society just wasn't terribly interested in what I was trying to do

so how could I feel that I'm betraying a country when it doesn't want me to do

to do what it's trained me to do?

a really big issue for us at the moment is

how we're going to manage to have kids and run two careers

we don't want to

miss out on the chance of having a significant career,

and we don't want to miss out on the chance to have kids

and to be involved with them

but in those early formative years, would you be happy for your children

to be brought up by Jackie

and Jackie not be able to give them her full attention?

well it's not.. that's putting it in a rather strange way - it's not just me

I.. this is...

this is an area...I pay lip service to the idea of equal shares on this as well

and it remains to be seen if I would actually live up to my intention

there are several things, I think, to be said here

if we both work in academia, that will make life much easier because

as things are at the moment in the States, if you have a computer at home

you can come in to teach and to give office hours to your students

but you can work

half of the day from home

but I don't want to be the person left behind while Nick flies in

and shares an adult life with his children

at college and working, I want to be there to

Is she difficult?

at times, yes

whenever we have an argument she does have a tendency to explode, I suppose

to get, no to get really miserable about it, and not..

we've only been married four years

anything could happen

we could easily drift apart there are so many pressures on people

you just have to work at it

and that's why it's important that you have the same ideas

that you want the same kind of life

when we were in England, our big source of arguments was money

we were always squabbling about money but that one, mercifully..

it seems to have gone away pretty well, we still disagree

but it isn't a major source of rows

A person with one million pounds is not going to be much

is not goint to be more unhappy than a person with two million pounds

I've never really been aiming for money

and that's curiously enough why it was such a surprise that..

it really surprised me when I found that my standard of living mattered to me

when I finished University and I found that I couldn't afford

what I'd been able understood I could afford as a student

It suddenly caught up with me for the first time in my life

that I really did care about how much moneyI was getting

and it didn't ever occur to me that I would

if I could change the world, I'd change it into a diamond

I'd like to think, I'm hoping that I might do at some stage

but I don't really think that I've done anything that you can call

a great success, I mean..

It would seem really ridiculous to any of my friends who watch this if I said

"Christ, aren't I a great success, look at me"

When I first met you, I remember I thought this was very idealistic

but it was rather interesting

when I asked you why you're working on fusion

you said that you wanted to save the world

It was a - I think that's a bit embarrasing now

but I don't think you'd feel the same way about something that

you didn't feel mattered

that's right

I picked it because I thought it really was something that could be

useful to people

hopefully.. eventually..

yes, it would be a disappointment if I didn't..

achieve very much but I'm not worrying about it very much

I've just got to go out and make it happen

I don't think you want to go to university

if you want to be an astronaut

What?

changed my mind completely of course

I think it was just the

imagination a 7 year old has 7

I might be living in cloud cuckoo land, you know

mum and dad might say, "no son"

"that's not life, you don't get a job you like"

I'd like to think I could

teachers are undervalued

The whole system is beginning to crumble

you know, people outside of it don't realize that, but it is

and it's ..

very disillusioning, you know, you don't feel you're getting anywhere

and of course the money as well

which, whatever the papers tell you, is abysmal

Peter left his comprehensive school in Liverpool

and at 21 was studying history at London University 21

living in student digs

the facts were

that I'm particularly an intelligent person, just reasonably, I suppose

I'm not a genius, I just went to college

on three reasonable A levels A

and just didn't do very much work for three years, just did the bare minimum

turned up to lectures, wrote a few essays

you get a degree for it and it was a joke really

once Carolyn Stepford said she loved me

and I'm going to marry her when I grow up

doesn't appeal to me at all at the moment.. I've just gone twenty 20

I haven't even been abroad yet in my life so..

there's no way I'm going to get settled down

what was it about Peter that you fell in love with?

who said anything about love? I don't..

we have a very much the same attitude, much the same general attitude

to life, even though we're very different in personality

and in the things we like to do

what is it about his personality that attracted you?

nothing really, I don't know..

not..

not a great deal

Peter and Rachel have been married four years

and met at teacher training college

they have just bought their first home

a terraced house in the center of Leicester

they both have careers

Peter teaches in a comprehensive school

Rachel in a college of further education

there are two risks, either for one of us to follow the other around

and therefore, perhaps become frustrated

and dissatisfied that you didn't

initially follow your own line, or your own individual wants

or there's the risk that you take that you perhaps do have to part sometimes

for jobs or whatever

or, for what you particularly want to do

I think the latter risk is much more worth taking

So you would be prepared to part?

Yeah, I mean obviously there is an element of compromise

otherwise why get married?

And do you have any plans for children?

not at the moment, no

but us, we haven't really thought about it seriously

Why's that?

well, it's because we've both got you know..

things we'd still prefer to be doing you know, if you have children..

that immediatlely limits you

I don't want to be limited yet

if you choose to have a family, then you also have a responsibility to children

so you know... it's a very difficult decision

and although I think most liberated men

would say that they too are involved in that decision

I think ultimately the responsibility still comes down on the woman's head

is Peter liberated?

well I think a lot of men such as Peter like to think they're liberated

and I'm not in any way..

saying that he's not

but I think when it comes to the crunch

you know, the absolute crunch...

are you going to give up your job to look after these children?

then I think it more often than not

that decision is made by the woman rather than the man

if you do have children, would you want them educated

in the way that you've been educated?

I don't know how things have changed

but basically you've still got this emphasis on just getting through exams

you know, which isn't really education

cause most of the stuff you come out of school with is absolutely useless

you don't need it

So how would you bring them up? Educate them?

well I don't know, I suppose the easy answer is..

teach them more relevant things

get them to think for themselves

a bit more, which schools don't do enough

Would you contemplate putting them into the private sector of education?

no.. no

definitely not

Why?

well it's just the principle, that's all there is to it.

What is the principle?

well, the principle is that the private schools help

to keep the old class system going

they're part of it, they perpetuate it

so I'm certainly not going to be involved in that

when I came through school at the end, perhaps of the..

well, lets say the ideals of the 60's were still there 60

even though it was the 70's 70

and, that one was always led to believe

that there were golden opportunities

but of course there aren't

and very much now, people of my generation are beginning to realize

what perhaps sixteen-year-olds know, now at sixteen 16

I'm only just beginning to see that now at 27 27

that in fact, you know, there aren't..

there's no such thing as sort of, mobility, in any sense of the word

you know, it's very difficult to move up

do you think you've had as fair opportunity as other people? - oh god no

In what way?

a lot of people have got it made for them still, haven't they?

they've got it all lined up

how?

well..

like the public school..

I don't want to slag off people who are in the program with me

not slag them off personally

but I mean, they had it set up for them, didn't they?

it's a big problem, it caused a lot of discussion I think

the workers do tend to take a few liberties as regards to strikes

I would like to think that democracy is here to stay

perhaps we haven't got a full democracy, in fact, we problably haven't

it's a..

it's a pretty good system

are you surprised by the way England is being governed?

I'm not surprised with the people who govern us at the moment, no

- Why? - I've even stopped being amazed

Why?

why?

well..

I don't want to get dragged into party politics, you know

but basically it's the most..

incompetent, uncaring, bloody.. we've ever had

Well if I can't be an astronaut, I'd like to be

a Bradwell sergeant in the police force, like my dad is

Do you want to be rich?

I wouldn't mind

I think once I can get myself going

I can work solid, yeah

but it's the motive

which is very hard to acquire

yeah..

I'm dead lazy

- yeah.. - And how did you deal with it?

not much

I'm just hard to get.. you know I'm not the sort of person who can get

charged up very quickly

I am really lazy, you know

if I've got things to do I'd sooner make a cup of tea first and read the paper

he always looks on the negative side of life before he looks on the positive

whereas perhaps I'm the opposite

and that in a sense is an area of conflict, yes

yeah, a clash of personalities

- yeah - And how did you deal with that?

well, as you deal with all people like that, you just give them a good..

kick and say, you know..

"wake up to it" you know, that kind of thing

and do you see any areas of conflict in the future for you?

In personality?

no.. no I don't not really

because I think we both appreciate each other's personalities,

in fact, it would be quite dull to be exactly the same

I mean, there is something quite

exciting in being different

in that it isn't as predictable

you know, we're not along the same track all the time

on the grass..

- we play international wrestling - yeah

that's only in summertime though

What have been for you the best times?

Tommy Smith scoring the second goal in Rome

definitely.. one of the all-times

Which game was that?

"Which game was that?"

that was the European Cup final, 1977 1997

you know, after that it was all.. nothing else compares with it really

so, it's hard to think of anything else

oh, I'll tell you what was another good moment, I was um...

a group I played in..

were doing quite well... a few occasions, that was good

Tell me about that.

It's just a local band, I was in till fairly recently

you know, just played pubs and that, but it was very enjoyable

You know, when you get a good reaction from people

it's just one of the best things you can have really

Do you ever get that in your work?

no, god no.

Why?

well, what are you asking?

If they applaud at the end of each lesson or something?

No, just that excitement, that communication

no.. no I don't

Do you think people change much?

Or, do you think we saw

you, the man as a 7 year old boy? 7

I thought for awhile that was a bit too simple, but I think it's true

because after that your barriers begin to go up

you learn how to fend off things like I was just saying

obviously when 7 seven you don't think about it, you just come out with it 7

so yeah, to a point you reflect that

So the boy at 7, is in a sense, the real you? 7

Yeah, it's sort of..

the essential.. the essential Peter Davies

There were nine other children filmed in 1963. 9

What of them?

If we did all um, love Geoffery, and we all want to marry him -Yeah

I think I know the one that he'd likes.. best..

and that's her

and I wasn't talking today and Brown sent me out for nothing

I feel like rumbling when there' already been a fight

If I can't be an astronaut, I think I'll be a coach driver.

I read the Financial Times

What's happened to these children?

Where are they and what are they doing?

We'll see tomorrow night.

If someone comes up and starts fighting then.. I think it serves them right

I know the one he likes.. best.. and it's her!

I think it's not a bad idea to pay for school

I'm going to work in Woolworth's

I'd just walk around, and see what I can find

I think I'll be a coach driver

I don't like um..

the big boys..

hitting us and..

and a prefect sending us out.. out for nothing

I know I prefer to be alone really.

when I said that

I know.. I know even now, I meant that

if someone dropped me out in the Sahara desert

I probably would have been happy more or less, if you get the point

say you had a wife

say, say, say..

say you had to eat what they cooked you and..

and say I don't like greens, well I don't.

and say, she said

"you have to eat, what you get"

well I don't like greens.. so she gives me greens.. and it..

and that's it..

I find it hard to express emotion most of the time

though I'm getting on top of that

more now, you know?

Just the simple things to say to Susan, I love you, something like that

I mean, I can tell you about it, but

I really haven't been able to say it freely

to Sue, you know?

Has he proposed to you?

yeah, it was strange, we went off and bought the engagement ring first

and then I said to him, you haven't really proposed to me yet -tongue tied

as you can gather, he's sort of very shy

What was it that you fell in love with? What is it about him?

his helplessness, I suppose

there's the motherly instinct in me

to pick him up, and cuddle him..

he's also very good looking, I think, but he doesn't agree with me

and in the summer, he's got this cute little bum in shorts

Paul and Susan live in Melbourne, Australia

Four years ago they sold everything they had

bought an old Bedford van, and went on a trip through Central and Western Australia

it took 7 months, and they travelled 15,000 miles 7 1500024000

I think it brought us closer together

because we really got to know each other and relied on each other so much

I'd never been so relaxed in my life, I felt a lot more confident in myself

just great fun really

no pressures or worries, everything was forgotten

when we got to Perth,' I was ready to fly home

being together so much, it was hard

but then we settled down and must have settled down really well because

I got pregnant and everything so something must have been going right

I think it's, now, why people like to get back to nature and like to feel that

that they aren't living in the 20th Century.. 20

to me, it's just like an old dream that you wish could come true, you know

living next to nature, like pioneers type of thing

I love the place, you know

I find it hard to put into words really, what it is

you've got the country

you've got bush, the outback

you can do more or less anything you want, I think, here

whether you can do that in England, I don't know

I think this is the part we enjoyed the most

because we really went out in the middle of nowhere

where we had to carry our own petrol and our own water

to do us for the 3 or 4 days we were out that way 34

while we were up in Carnarvon, we went and stayed on a sheep station Carnavon

up there with our friend from Melbourne, Bruce

and It was about a million acres, just under a million acres, the sheep station 100

Bruce from the Yanrey Station, he got ahold of sometails from the roo-shredder Yanrey

so we could try kangaroo tail stew

yeah, it was a bit rough

we had nothing to throw it in. - a bit sinewy

It gave us our own peace of mind that we could settle down

and now have a family, that we had done something, we hadn't just been nobodys

and lived in suburbia all our lives

we'd done something that we were proud of that..

you know, we'd accomplished on our own

Do you want this for the children?

I'd love it for the children

I was once taught when I was at school that

travel could be the best education and

living in conditions where you have to fend for yourself

and you have to use your own initiative is very good and

I would like it

I was gonna be a policeman but I thought how hard it would be to join in

I just haven't made up my mind yet, I was gonna be a phys-ed teacher but

one of the teachers told me that you had to get up into university

At 21, Paul was working as a junior partner 21

for a firm of bricklayers in Melbourne

I'm not great at bricklaying, right

but if I wasn't good enough and my boss didn't think I was good enough

he would have never made me a junior partner

I went out on my own as a subcontracter

not long after the last show

then I started with a partner, I organized everything

I bought all the equipment because I didn't want to

be dependent on someone else

things didn't work out between the two of us, he was a bit lazy

Do you have the right temperament, do you think? To run your own business?

if you're talking about employing other people, I'm not hard enough

I'm a little bit slow with working out things on the job

not in particular the laying of the bricks but

but I am a fairly slow thinker when you've got to work something out

I think it'll end up being my job for life, probably

not that I want it that way

cause it gets harder as you get older, I think

I've got twenty three.. pieces.. 23

and I don't know how many..

how many.. pieces I've got now

26 past 10 with Doug... 15 degrees in Melbourne... at the moment...

They live in a working class suburb of Melbourne.

Paul earns 12 thousand pounds a year 12 1 = 9.9872

owns two cars

and bought his house for 35 thousand pounds 18 months ago 1835

we're Mr. and Mrs. average, that's just true

we probably earn an average income

just an average family

a good fist away by Russo up towards center wing... Robertson this time...

Susan works part time as a hair dresser

and they have two children,

Katie and Robert.

Are you ambitious for your children Paul?

I said something one morning, that one day Robert would be a brain surgeon

that was a joke, I mean like if he was a brain surgeon, all good and well but

but it would be nice to let them go one step up from us, I think

put it this way, I hope he is better at school work than I was

so, that he's got a choice

you know, because really..

the education standard that I got, I didn't have a choice

what does university mean?

Paul started his school life at a children's home near London.

When he was eight he emigrated to Australia with his father.

Were you happy at the children's home in England?

we didn't mind it really because we didn't know what was going on

cause we were a bit young then

What regrets do you have about your education then?

I didn't work hard enough

I was just very lazy at school

you know, if you're lazy and you don't work at school, you suffer for it

there needs to be a little more discipline

if private schools are better..

you'd be far better off spending your money sending your kids there

then getting a video, a new television..

or something like that, I think

What else do you want for your kids, that you didn't have?

a happier family life, I think

don't take me wrong, it wasn't miserable

I think it could have been better

I think that'd be one of the most important things

well my mother and father got, well they separated originally, I think

and..

eventually got divorced

I went to the boarding school for one year and then we emigrated to Australia

my father got remarried

And how do you get on with your stepmother?

pretty well, but like I said before

I'm not.. just not close.. I'm not really close to my father either

Do you have any regrets about about the fact that

that you weren't closer to him when you were younger?

yeah, I suppose... in a way I suppose

he was always there, you know, I could always

talk to him but it was different we were sort of..

we were, sort of, distant friends I mean, we always got on fairly well

we didn't see much of each other

- here's grandad.. here's grandad.. - hey!

he said actually, to his wife Barbara that..

that he missed out on his own children

and that he's not going to miss out on these

divorce was something new to me until I grew up and was

knew what the meaning of it all really was

there were no divorces in my family

I think of what Paul has been through, I mean

Paul doesn't say that it was very bad but I wouldn't want that for my children

it does worry me

you know, because it happens so much these days

only time will tell what happens

divorcing your wife, what does it get you?

it messes up your own life

it messes up the kids life, wife's life

I don't think half the people who get divorced even think about it properly

What mark has it left on you, the fact that you were brought up

within a bad marriage?

the only thing I can say, that I think might have come from that is

just my lack of confidence

and being able to show my feelings, really, I suppose

he is down on him self, he has this excuse where he says,

"I'm only a bricklayer, I don't.. it's got nothing to do with me"

I don't know why it is, I get really frustrated with him

I want to ring his neck sometimes when he does it

but, he's getting better

So, do you feel there's any conflict ahead?

If Sue wants a job and a career?

what's come up so far, since we've been married, we've handled that

really, I think, Susan would probably be

the be the best one to start a.. be a businesswoman and I'll stay at home

you know..

I have to push him out of the house sometimes,I think needs a bit of extra

male companionship because he..

being a bricklayer, he only works with one fellow

he doesen't, we don't have a social life with work type of thing

well he doesn't because it's only just one person as well as himself

and his basketball, I think he really enjoys it

but he doesn't really let on how much he enjoys it

I suppose you could see me now, when I was seven, in a way

like I think it was pretty obvious that I wasn't going to be a doctor

You seemed like such a sad little boy.

but that's me though, ha ha

I know I was pretty..

you know.. long faced sortta thing..

I was like that sometimes out here too, I was always getting knocked about

I don't like greens, well I don't..

the first show I saw, was at 21 21

when I saw him at seven, I just wanted to cry, he seemed so pathetic 7

he..

I suppose, I don't know

it's hard to say, it really made me go to jelly inside, you know?

to see him like that

And do you think it's true that we can see the man in the seven year old boy?

yes, yes it is because in that he was a very gentle and..

and um.. not gentle..

caring person, yeah he's always..

cared about other people and always been able to work his way

talk his..

try to give an explanation for saying something he really doesn't want to do

you know like, "what if I"

"didn't like to eat my greens" and all that sort of thing, I mean

he always still does that, the "what if", you know "what if"

and you know he doesn't really want to do that

so he's trying to talk himself out of it

yeah.. yeah..

Does he eat greens now? - he loves them

he loves them, he loves them

What do you remember of England?

well it seemed to be raining all of the time, I wouldn't

stake my life on it but..

-we've got a lot more than we would have in England

from what other people tell us

but there again..

when it comes to work I don't

sit down on my backside, I'll go and chase it

so it's hard to say

but I'd say, like in general, that.. but I've probably..

I've probably done better here than I would have there

the family is going to come first, but I'm still

I'm still going to be working and we'll progress..

you know.. - I'd love for Paul to build me a house

and I know he'd be happy once he'd done it

but he's got his children and then to build his own home...

it really would be the icing on the cake for both of us

I read The Financial Times

I read The Observer and The Times

what do you like about it?

well, I like.. I usually look at the headlines and then read about them..

about it

I like my newspaper because I've got shares in it..

and I know everyday what the shares are - The stuff that misers like you like!

but on Monday's they don't move up so I don't look at it

what's the point of the program?

the point of the program is to reach a comparison

I don't think it is..

because we're not necessarily typical examples

I think that's what people who've seen the program might think - yes, falsely

- I mean.. - they tend to typecast us

so everything we say, they'll think

"oh, that's a typical result of the public school system" - yes

Well, do you think there is any truth behind the ideas behind the program?

That certain people have more options than others?

it's certainly true that more people.. more people know they have

more options or imagine they have

I think in practical terms..

the difference in the numerical number of options isn't that great

but the mere knowledge creates an option in itself - exactly, yes

so I think we do have more options

and it is undesirable but it's very difficult to correct

I don't think it is undesirable! at all!

I think what is undesirable is people who have had options

don't make advantage of them.. take best advantage of them

when I leave this school I'm going to College Court College Court

then I would be going to Westminster Boarding School if I pass the exam

and then we think I'm going to

Cambridge and Trinity Hall

John went to Westminster school

and at twenty-one was in his final year reading law at Christ Church Oxford 21

I do believe that parents have a right to educate children as they think fit

and I think someone who works

on an assembly line in some of these car factories

and earning a huge wage could well afford to send their children to

a private school

just because..

just because some sorts of people don't put that as high on their priorities as

you know, have a smart car or something

I'm going to Charter House Charter House

and after that Trinity Hall, Cambridge

Andrew went to Charter House and read law at Trinity Hall, Cambridge Charter House

and you can never be sure of leaving your children

any worldly goods

but at least you can be sure once you've given them a good education

that's something that no one can take away

when I leave school, I'm going to the Dragon School Dragon School

I might.. and mummy is.. and I might go to..

after, I might go to Charter House, Marlborough Charter House, Marlborough

and..

I can't.. I can't remember all the other places

because mummy has got so many places... but these're some of them

What about university Charles?

I might go to Oxford

Charles went to Marlborough but didn't make it to Oxford. Marlborough

Instead, he went to Durham University.

I'd say, I'm pleased I didn't because it's very much a sort of..

sort of Marlborough.. Marlborough

prep school..

Marlborough-Oxbridge conveyor belt

and you get shoved out at the end..

and you..

when you go to Oxbridge

and obviously it's not true in all cases but

I think for the majority

they mix with the same as they were with a school

When they were 21, we asked them what they thought they would be doing at 28. 21 28

John

I might be at the bar

Doing what?

perhaps chancellory practice

How do you see your life at 28? 28

What do you want for your self then?

I'd quite like to be married by then

John has just announced his engagement.

He is a successful barrister in the chancellory division of the high court.

At 21 these were his thoughts about his career. 21

law sort of interests me

I think it's sort of..

a good life

it's..

it's hard work but you sort of

when you get to a certain..

eminence, you know you take the work you want and

you take the holidays you want

you don't really dance to anyone's tune

all of which quite suits me

And what about Charles?

hard to say..

probably scribbling away in some basement

for a some London newspaper or something

Charles did scribble away for an East London newspaper.

He moved on after a year

and joined the BBC where he now works as and assistant producer. BBC

And Andrew, what did he want?

I'd like to be a solicitor and also fairly successful

Andrew is a solicitor working for a large firm in the city.

What qualities do you think it needs to be successful?

well you have to have a legal ability in my business, obviously

and you have to have a 'bedside manner' as far as clients are concerned

cause it's no good being brilliant if you can't communicate with your clients

What do you think about girlfriends at your age?

I've got one but I don't think much of her

The girls never.. never

never do what the boys want them to

they always start playing with dolls

when the boys want to play rough and tumble

it's quite true

I don't think I financially come from the same background

Andrew didn't for a 'Haughty Deb' he went for a good 'Yorkshire Lass

which I mean, obviously he knew what he wanted

Andrew and Jane were married 18 months ago. 18

I think I'm pretty down to Earth and I

tend to be less extravagant then maybe some women are

when I go out, I don't buy lots of expensive dresses, I just buy one or two

and I even let her pay for them

They spend their weekends in the Sussex countryside

where they are converting an old barn

which they bought with financial help from their parents.

They plan to live in it permanently when they start a family

During a week they have a flat in London

and Jane has a full-time job as a secretary.

I think it's not a bad idea to pay for schools

because if we didn't schools would be so nasty and crowded

- yes - so do I think so

- yes - and the people in the school's wouldn't

- the poor people would come rushing in

- the man in charge of the school would get very angry

because he wouldn't be able to pay all of the masters

if he didn't get any money

well, I never really experienced the state system but I think you get

a better level of education if you can go to a private school

Do you think it's bad that people like you, opt out of the school system?

well, there are really two counter arguments

first of all, there's the argument that people should have a choice

if they've earned the money to spend it

and there's the other argument that if we all went to the same sort of schools

those school would probably be better because those people who had influence

would do their upmost to make sure they were better

if they had to send their children there

whereas they just look back

and don't particularly care what happens in the state system

And what do you feel about that?

well..

well, I think probably the latter choice is fairly impractical

so, I suppose that one has to continue with the idea of everyone

having a choice

once I had a talk to Grevil, he was in my house Grevil

and

I asked Sir if he could put him out of my house

because he was always getting minuses

looking back at our film and us at seven

certainly I was a fairly precocious little brat

and I hope I am no longer

Do you still read The Financial Times? - no

you mustn't! no feeding it says!

stop it at once!

- I don't think much of the accents - neither do I

- neither do I - but it doesn't prevent me liking them

that mustn't be late there, quite quietly...

well yes I do feel I've had the best of everything

as far as education is concerned

but, you know, to get here I had to work very hard

But you don't deny you've had a 'silver spoon'?

I think anyone who goes to really good school has had a leg-up

but I mean, I wouldn't say I'd had been

unduly privileged if I'd

missed

exams at my school and had to go to a sort of grotty..

grotty public school I wouldn't have thought I'd have had any advantage at all

yes I much say, all this talk about opportunities it's something I did

did slightly object to in the program

we were shown at the age of seven outlining sort of, the academics

of a career that most of us.. did in fact pursue, you know

you know, each sentence ended up

"John is at Westminster" "Andrew is at Charter House" and everything Charter House

it implied that we merely sailed through

merely manifesting an intention that we had at the age of seven 7

it didn't show the sleepless nights, the sort of pouring over our books

you know, all of the sweat and toil that got us to universities

it was presented as if it was just part of some indestructible birth rite

and I thought that it was unfair

that it didn't show having to do beastly jobs on the holidays, you know

to make ends meet and things

it didn't give a very real..

impression

Do you want to be rich?

yes, because I don't want to be tied down to the dourness of an everyday job

I want to have enough money so that I can indulge in

the things that might interest me like collecting paintings

I do believe in an ordered and structured society

you know

we are not exactly alive for very long and we've each got our

our own job to do and our own little position to be in

some people have.. a better time than others, but it.. you know..

but it doesn't matter that if you sweep the streets

you're any less valuable than

than someone who i running a huge corporation

well not everyone can be at the top

as long as people are happy with what they are doing

that's, I think, the greatest good that can be

and this is what worries about these new sort of invidious class attitudes

the certain sort of subversive elements are introducing

that are based on envy and things

John declined to be interviewed at 28. 28

He felt satisfied with what was said in the previous films

and had nothing more to add.

the rich children always make fun of poor children

yes - yes, they say, "look at that lovely little sissy over there"

and they throw things at them

I don't particularly want to be rich but I'd like to have enough money

Well, what do you mean by enough?

or, enough to have a nice house and..

and be able to send the children to private school if you want to

I really don't see how someone's life can be a failure

if I became a journalist and got sacked at 30 30

it's probably because I'd grown out of it or I'd changed

so I was no longer suitable, I'd find something else which was

I'd find that I enjoyed and that my talents were suited to

Charles has found a career suited to his talents

At the BBC he makes documentary films, BBC

he decided not to take part in this film.

I'm quite happy living in the society that I am living in

it's a shame that more people can't get the opportunities that I've had

I'm not sure how one deals with that

But you've been lucky haven't you? What about those that haven't been so lucky?

I have been very lucky

we pretend we've got swords

and

we makes the noises of swords fighting

and when someone stabs us we go ahhhhh!

I think if you're healthy and have good friends

you can get on perfectly well

but everybody would like to be rich

Neil was brought up in a Liverpool suburb,

went to comprehensive school

and dropped out of Aberdeen University after one term

at 21 he was working as a casual labourer at a building site in London 21

I came to London and I contacted an agency for squatters

and they were able to

give me the address of somebody who was able to

help people who were looking for accommodation in the London area

and by the process of chasing people around I eventually managed to

to find this place

I think in questions of squatting

a bit of humanity is more important than vague

rules about who can live where

But you've kicked against the stability that's..

-I don't think I ever had any stability

to be quite honest

I can't think of any time in my life when I ever did

I don't think I've been kicking against anything, I think I've been kicking

in midair the whole of my life

last three years I've been unemployed

but traveling quite a bit, mostly in Britain

and abroad once or twice but..

but not as extensively as I used to do

thanks, shall I put the luggage in here? or, do you want it in the back?

I live off money from social security

which does me for my rent and my food

I've been moving about a bit between differnent places, really

I'm a bit unsettled but I'm very shortly moving to live in digs

For the last seven years Neil has been moving around Britain.

He spent the summer on a farm in North Wales

and when we found him he had just arrived

in the Western Highlands of Scotland.

Do you think people like who live off the state are scrounging?

-no

if the state didn't give us any money, it would probably just mean crime

and I'm glad I don't have to steal to keep myself alive

I do it simply because I don't want to be without any money

if the money runs out, well

then for a few days, there is nowhere to go to

that's all you can do

I simply have to find the warmest shed I can find

Neil rents whatever kind of home he can find.

the last job I had was cooking in a youth hostel, some cleaning work as well

I was the only person in the hostel who could speak French

so I did a bit of that

Do you eat everyday?

yes

I'm eating better now then I was at times when I was in Aberdeen

those days, sometimes I really was short of food

well I'm going to take people to the country

and sometimes take them to the seaside

and have a big loud speaker in the motor coach

and tell them where abouts we are and what we're going to do

and where the road is and all about that

there's a lot more to do

in the mountains than there would be in a suburb or a city centre

what I found here, in fact, is you don't talk about the weather

because the weather is all around, everyone know it's been raining

so you don't talk about the weather that makes good sense to me!

I'm not the sort of person who can go into a pub

sit down with a drink and listen to the jukebox and talk a lot of rubbish

a lot of people find that very relaxing

but, if I'm going to talk to somebody

a, I have to be able to hear myself speaking

and b, I have to talk about something that actually has a meaning

I'm not trying to denigrate the way most people relax

but I can't do that, so I'm lost in a noisy pub

I'll sit in a quite corner of a quite pub

and then I'll want to talk about literature or something like that

which not everybody.. will want to..

How do people regard you here?

well, I'm still known as an eccentric

as I have been since.. 16

about the age of sixteen or so

Do days seem long for you?

they can do

Do you have any friends anywhere?

I have some good friends still in England

I don't think I need to go to university because I'm not going to be a teacher

I went to a comprehensive school

I found a much bigger course and I found it hard to settle into at first

I did make an application to Oxford

but I didn't get in

well I think that's in the past now and that's..

I don't whether I would have been any happier at Oxford

it always had been a dream to get into Oxford

I think because people had encouraged me

and because I knew famous people having been to Oxford

it is still something occasionally I

I think about and think yes

I know I could have done well

I've been playing since I started at the comprehensive school

since the first year

I don't think I was half as clever as I was told I was, I think

unfortunately, I grew up

against a background of fairly..

of people of pretty average intellagence

I don't think I went to a school of bright people

if this was the case, I don't think I would have been so big headed

I know I went to university expecting

to be something of a genius and found that wasn't the case at all

which is a good thing for me,

it's very good that I didn't count that opinion, I don't think I was

so much clever, I just think I was

quite enthusiastic particularly when it came to O levels

so I was enthusiastic about the subjects I was studying and therefore

with the help of good teaching I was able to get good results

What were your results?

well, I did well enough, I'm not going to boast

No, tell me. tell me the fact. How many O levels and A levels did you get?

I got ten O levels and then

I got four A levels 4

Did you get good grades within them?

yes, the grades were quite satisfactory

well I was only

taking university seriously for a matter of couple of months

two or three months

maybe I went to the wrong university or maybe university life didn't suit me

either way

I felt a very great need to get out of the system.

no formal education can prepare anybody for life

only life can prepare you for what comes

and sooner or later you are going to have to cross certain barriers

I don't think you ever cross those uh..

at school or at university

you come across the problem of mixing with other people but

the real problem.. I mean..

the real problem of becoming a success in the world is

when you have to tackle yourself

on the grass.. we play international wrestling

yeah, that's only in summertime though

yes, only when we can to go on the grass

being in set one, it's very very hard to keep up with the leaders

I never have time to relax at all

I don't know what sort of stumbling blocks should be put in a child's way

to get him used to living in the outside world

because I think maybe this is something that was wrong in my upbringing

I didn't have enough obstacles to get over

I still..

I still.. set myself high standards if I'm doing something that I want to do

but that's

that's important that's not too bad a thing

But you talked also about not having enough obstacles in your life.

How do you feel about that now?

funny that isn't it? I can't remember saying that but now I do remember

and

it seems the whole situation is reversed

In what way?

well now I'm a free..

I've got a free hand but I've got nothing to do with myself

so..

In the winter if you lived in the country

it would just be all wet and there wouldn't be anything for miles around

and you'd get soaked if you'd try to go out

and there's no shelter anywhere except in your own house

but in winter you can go out on wet wintery days

because you can always find somewhere to shelter

because there's lots of places

I don't thin I've been typical of the environment in which I lived

I might still have been unemployed

but what my background has given me is

umm a sense..

of just being part of..

a very impersonal society

the suburbs..

the suburbs..

force this kind of feeling upon somebody

the most you can hope to achieve is

is the right to climb into a suburban train

five or ten times a week and just stagger back

for the weekend, the least is just unemployment

great, thanks

I just needed a nice woolly pair

What other things about modern society turn you off?

the cheap satisfaction in so many things

the aimlessness

but I think the total lack of thought is at the bottom of it

nobody seems to know where they or anybody else is going

and nobody seems to worry

you know, you finish the week

you come home, you plug into the TV set for the weekend and then you..

manage to get back to work on Monday

and it seems to me that this is just a slow path to..

to.. to total brainwashing

and if you have a brainwashed society then you're heading towards doom

there's no question about that

I mean, it'll be pretty tough to convince most people

that what you have here, the way you live. the way you look

is better than a suburban life

well, I don't want to convince anybody, I know it is

see, what I look like, isn't necessarily what I feel like

I not claiming that I feel as though I'm in some sort of..

Nirvana

but

but I'm claiming that if I lived in a bedset in suburbia, I'd be so miserable

I'd feel like cutting my throat

and so, there is a slight difference

when I go home

I come.. I come in and mummy gives me a cup of tea

and then I go out and play

and when it starts to get dark I come in again

and put on TV

I don't think I was really taught any sort of policy

of living at all by my parents this is probably the biggest mistake

that I was just left to fend for myself in a world which

they seem completely oblivious of

and I found even when I tried to discuss problems which were facing me in school

my parents didn't seem to be aware of the nature of the problem

we.. we made up

quite.. quite well after..

the bad times we went through when I was in my early twenties

there's still.. there are still awkward patches

but

I think suddenly

perhaps almost mutually, it dawned upon us that

we were all making mistakes

and

and also that some of the things we did couldn't be helped

and

i think now

perhaps the greatest thing we achieved is

we know when to say nothing

and we know when to do nothing and we know when to be tolerant of each other

and that's a great thing

that's really tremendous

what I'd like most of all would be

would be to be able to

to do something for my parents

when they are older, to be there when..

when the time.. if necessary

Were they upset with what you said about them in the last program?

I'm sure they were

but I..

I don't wish I hadn't said it

because I said exactly what was going through my mind

I think I was very venomous

and I think I

had I been in an easier situation myself

had I had less worries, myself at the time

I would have been perhaps a little kinder

I had to take out my anger on somebody and I think it came out on my parents

but perhaps unconsciously a lot of what I said was what I did feel underneath

but

but I don't want the scar to remain

when I get married, I don't want to have any children

because

because they are always doing naughty things and making the whole house untidy

I always told myself that umm..

I would never have children

Why?

because..

because..

well, because..

children inherit something from their parents

and even if my wife were the most

high spirited and ordinary and normal of people

the child would still stand a fairly good chance of being not totally

full of happiness

because of what he or she will have inherited from me

poor people, I don't like them very much

no, it's the ghostly colored people

if you think of a purple person with red eyes and yellow feet

I can't really think of what they really look like

What goes through your mind when you look at those two films?

When you are seven, bright and perky?

I find it hard to believe that I was ever like that but there's the evidence

I wonder why I was like that I wonder what it was

inside me that made me like that

and I can even see at fourteen that I was beginning to get more subdued 14

and I was putting a lot more thought into what I was saying

to a ridiculous degree

and probably when I was seven..

I lived in a wonderful world where everything was sensation

and I could be happy obviously but be miserable the next minute

I know at seven years old I was fascinated by everything around me

the colors of things and things that were funny

sounds that things made

I had, if you like, idiosyncratic views

about things that other people hadn't even thought about

I remember I thought colored people had purple noses and green legs

or something like that

perhaps I'm still looking for..

it's difficult to explain, perhaps I'm still looking for..

the green nose and this sort of thing

and I know that..

that they are still there that when you look at a human being

there's more.. there's more to that person then..

just a.. just a robot

when I grow up I want to be an astronaut

but if I can't be an astronaut I think I'll be a coach driver

this probably linked up now with the fact that I want to travel

my thoughts haven't really changed

I definitely would like to be a coach driver now

I suppose I..

yes, well..

I would like to be somebody in a position of importance

and I've always thought this..

but I don't think I'm the right sort of person to carry the responsibility

for whatever it is I always thought, well, I'd love to be in

possibly even love to be in politics

something like this

but

I suppose I'd find it just as tedious as all of the other jobs I've done so..

there were things I always thought I could do

I could give lectures on..

erudite subjects I'd read all about

I could work in the theatre

perhaps lighting or

directing a show

And is all of that lost to you?

does seem to be, yes

I don't see anyway out, I've thought of everything I possibly could

it seemed to me for a long time that getting a reliable job

and a nice place to live would be the solution

well, I haven't succeeded

I can't see any immediate future at all

but

here I am, I'm still

I've still got clothes on my back

not particularly nice clothes but I've still got them

I have a place to go to

I have some prospects of work, I'm still applying for jobs, I haven't given up

I think, I think I'm lucky because I have met so many people

I've worked with people who have no future whatsoever

for whom life is finished completely at fifty 50

and yet somehow they have to keep going

and

I don't want it to seem that I'm complaining too much

I feel, especially sometimes when I'm on my own

that I'm loosing touch with where people live

Do you worry about your sanity?

other people sometimes worry about it

Like who?

as I've said, I

sometimes can be found

behaving in an erratic fashion

sometimes I can get very frustrated, very angry

for no apparent reason, for a reason which won't be apparent

to other people around me

it's happened from time to time

Have you had treatment?

I've occasionally had to see doctors, yes

I haven't had any treatment

And what have they said to you?

I've had a lot of advice but you know the best medicine is..

kind words

and it usually comes

from somebody who has nothing to do with the medical profession

which isn't to say that doctor's can't be very helpful

but really, the thing a sick person wants

is to be away from doctors as soon as possible

What did they say was wrong with you?

well, I have always had a nervous complain

I've had it since I was sixteen

it was responsible for my leaving university

and some of my difficulties with work

but as you know, you can't avoid to go around looking depressed

that in itself is bad enough

So can you lick it?

it remains to be seen

yes, I'd say I believed in god

Are you religious?

well, I go to church with my parents on Sundays

I don't know now whether I believe in god or not

I thought an awful lot about it actually and I still don't know

but still I'm certain, if one were to survive in this world

they'd have to believe in god

I don't think of god as a creature but I think of..

something..

time.. destiny..

which is regulating everybody's affairs and witch you cannot

you cannot fight against and you cannot..

order about

And how has he been treating you?

well I said to somebody last week

that I preferred The Old Testament to The New Testament

because in The Old Testament

god is very unpredictable

and that's, I think, how I see him in my life

sometimes very benevolent

sometimes, seemingly, needlessly unkind

If we come back in seven years, how would you like us to find you? 7

In a job, for which I was getting satisfaction

married

probably with children

with

a good salary

enough to, as I said before, live fairly comfortably

and with fiends whom I could contact if I wanted to

I'm a lot happier now, than I was seven years ago

I'm more content, I don't have such dreadful yearnings

I don't feel so hopelessly as if everything is against me

Do you think, what a waste?

yeah, perhaps

Why should you accept this?

You're better than all of this aren't you?

I'm not better than anything or anybody

I'm just somebody with my own particular difficulties

and my own particular obstacles to select

and everybody else is doing exactly the same thing

if we did all love Jeffery and all wanted to marry him

-yes! -I think I'd know the one he'd like

Jackie, Lynn, Susan

After primary school they separated

and at fourteen Lynn was at grammar school 14

and Jackie and Susan were at comprehensive.

we had a teacher at school

his favorite ploy was

all you girls want to do is walk out, get married, have babies

and push a pram down the street with a fag hanging outside your mouth

women are expanding into so many different areas now that

it must be getting easier

Susan has been married four years and has a son of two.

Her husband Billy is a gas fitter

and they live in a council house in the east end of London.

75!

I'm lucky I expect because I still manage to..

to do my own thing, I've got a husband who lets me do what I want

and a mum who helps me out

you know, and I do a little part time job

which is enough for me because I don't think I could cope with a full time job

and I wouldn't want to personally

60!

Jackie was married at 19 and her husband is a decorator 19

She works for an insurance company in the city

I certainly don't want to stay in the position I am at the moment

forever and ever

but how ambitious, I'm not really sure

tends to..

change as you get older so..

just got to wait and see really

Lynn also married at 19, 19

her husband works at the post office and they have two daughters.

They moved out of the Eastend to Kent 18 months ago. 18

I'm going to work in Woolworth's

At 21 Lynn was working in a mobile library in Tower Hamlets 21

she's still there.

- have I stamped yours? - yes

I've not stamped yours

Sleeping Beauty

teaching children the beauty of books

and watching their faces

as books unfold to them

is just fantastic

to work with children of that age you've got to love them and I love children

but I know he loves her and he loves her

- I don't, I love him!

I don't think I'd..

get married too early

I'd like to have a full life first and

- you'd like to enjoy yourself before? - meet people.. yeah

before you commit yourself to a family

if you think that

getting married, as far as we are concerned is a case of

going to work come home cook tea for hubby go to bed getting up going to work

you're totally mistaken

Did you meet enough men before you decided who you wanted to marry?

I've been married a year and..

a couple of months

you do think, christ, what have I done?

- see I've still got my... - and I'm being honest about it!

I think it's the same... you think, christ, what have I done?

it is a partnership marriage, yes

we were married, i'd say obviously, young

but because we wanted to go out and have fun together

and grow together

I'm not sure I would recommend it

I think if...

but again you are generalizing, I mean if..

I would say on average

19 is probably too young 19

I've had a good time up till I was 24 24

and

and I think that to get married young

there must be things that you miss, you must miss that crucial stage

of being yourself

because the minute you get married, you're no longer

a single being

you're a partnership and that should be the idea behind it

if I could, I would have two girls and two boys - yeah, so would I

And what about you Jackie?

my mum... because she's got five girls, she's got seven years bad luck

that's why she's got five girls

I'd like to be able..

to have a happy family

I mean I know that it's not possible to happy all of the time

but as much of the time as was possible

go through there, that's the nursery

-got any plans -oh, do me a favor

at 21 Jackie had moved into a new house 21

she has decided not to have any children

basically, I would say because I am far too selfish

I enjoy

doing what I want, when I want and how I want and..

certainly at the moment I..

can't see any way around that

that's not to say that's a forever decision

some people can make it work, I just don't think I could

You don't think you're missing out on what they have?

Their stake in the future?

no..

that's a very... that's a terrible way to put it, you know

I mean, that makes you sound like you're saying

"right, great, we're going to have a child"

and that.. that's us

I do feel to a degree that yes I am missing out

but I think I also get far more

pleasure out of

I'm gaining far more experience by not having that tie

when I got married

the primary reason was because I

wanted to have a child the two, to me, went together

I can understand Jackie's decision because

I think there is sill a lot of pressure put on

young married couples to have children as though it was expected of them

and I think it's all wrong, it's just a personal decision

that everyone is entitled to make

and knowing what it does to your life I can

fully understand someone who decides not to

what would you do if you had lots of money about.. like 2 pounds 20

I would by me self a new house, you know

one that's all nice and comfy

Do you get depressed by money problems?

no, why?

why should you?

if can manage with what you got? -it's easy to get depressed over money

-it's so easy to but why should you?

- why bother about it - when I reach the 18th day of the month

18

when my mortgage is due on the 20th 20

and there's nowhere near enough money in there

I get depressed about it obviously

what money?

it was hard, first of all, when I gave up work from having a fairly high salary

to nothing was hard

but you get used to it whatever your circumstances are

you live in them, you get used to it, you cope, everybody does

I think before going to a grammar school, I just

you know, comprehensive school

it just seem more friendly, you know, and at the time it was but now

now they are really different

-grammar schools are fantastic -if you say so

we've heard that it doesn't scratch the bottom, why am I using

wooden spoon please? to stir this saucepan..

I don't think anybody influenced me, it was a conscious decision

obviously, the decision

was discussed at home

but

it was always in me

to go

there may come a time, perhaps later on when I regret

not having..

we are talking about examination results really, that's what it boils down to

and.. I got..

and I got some examination results and O levels and GCSEs or whatever

I didn't need them

for the jobs I decided to do, so

with this school, we do metal work and woodwork

and the boys do cookery

and we get a share of everything.. sort of thing

most parents would want

every advantage they can get for their child, now

whether you class going to grammar school as an advantage

is dependent on you entire outlook

if you don't

class it as an advantage then you are not going to push that

my mum left me, she knew I could go to grammar

and

and I decided that I didn't want to

she encouraged me in the choice that I made and

right or wrong that was my choice

as much as I was capable of making a decision

and

I enjoyed myself

my father recently go education, he never went to the local comprehensive

but at the same time

I don't think he was too worried which way I was decided to go

I think he probably knew me better than I did

which was basically, I was a very lazy person academically

and I think I would have found grammar school bullshit

Do you have any regrets about it?

umm.. no, no

you can only have regrets about things if you're not happy with the way you are

You look at the old film and you see yourselves as seven,

do you think you've changed?

no, I don't think I have really

we're the same people as we were then

I was always chatty, Jackie was always chatty

and Lynn was always the quieter one

But is that depressing or frightening to think 7

we're all set by the time we're seven and that's it?

I don't think one's set by that age, you progress

but

the overall character is there to come up

I think the basics are there

yeah, the basics are there

But why is it that you three haven't changed so much do you think?

- we'll probably never know that - I think we've all had

we've all had a stable background with stable relationships all the way through

the same people are there now that were there then

the poor, if you don't help then soon they'll sort of

die soon, wouldn't they?

well, some people are just born into rich families and they're lucky

I don't see why they should have to luck when people have worked all their lives

and haven't got half as much as what they have

it just doesn't seem fair

I've had the opportunities in life that I've wanted

- I'll say I've had more! - yeah, you may

So you three working class girls don't feel

bitter about a society

that maybe gives one strata of it more opportunities than another?

no

not bitter

not at all

I don't event think, to be honest, we consciously think about it

until this program comes up once every seven years

I really don't think we even think about it

I don't not sit there thinking

"he actually was born into money!"

"he's had more opportun.."

I mean it just doesn't even cross my mind

I think we all could have gone in whatever way we wanted to at the time

within our capabilities, I mean

we chose our own jobs

we were able to chose our own jobs quite freely

if you've got a comfortable background then perhaps it can make life easy

but I think you've also seen

within this program that it doesn't always work that way

In some respects

I think that..

the boys and Suzi

didn't have

didn't have such an open choice as we had

it was mapped out for such an early age as to where they were going

and

and they had to live up

it's a hard thing living up to parental..

- expectations - expectations

before I'm old and that, enough to get a job

I'll just walk around

and see what I can find

I was going to be a film star but..

now I'm going to be an electrical engineer

which is more to reality, really

I often say I'm saving to settle down with Yvonne

and then I think to myself "nah I might buy a car instead"

since 21 21

I've got married

had a couple of kids

and um..

well, I don't think there's anybody else I could have ever married except Yvonne

it gives me my life really because

we're together, we have the children and everything

And what is it with Yvonne that you fell in love with?

her nature, really

it's always quite thoughtful

except when she's laughing

Tell me, do you have any girlfriends?

well, not many

What do you think about girls?

oh, not much

When you decided to have the five, did you want to have them close together?

yeah

because if you separated your kids and say one is fifteen and one is six 15 6

such an age gap that they could never get on

they'd never grow up together, they won't know each other

Why did you want to have a large family?

well I wouldn't really call it a large family

Well, I think it is large by average standards.

yeah?

we just wanted five kids

you know, we got exactly what we want, three boys and two girls

no, no... that's exactly... it's a handful, you know

Do you push your kids at school?

Those that go to school already?

no, I don't push them, I encourage them in what..

when they come home and I come home in the evening

they tell me what they've done

and if they've done anything bad I tell them where they've gone wrong

and if they..

want um..

what's the word? not encouragement.. praise

for what they've done

then I'll give it to them if they've done well, yeah

Do you see maybe your kids are going to be smarter than you are?

well, yeah there's a couple of them already that are gonna be smarter

How are you going to handle that?

um...

I'll keep them on my side

they say, "where's your father, then?"

you know, when your mum's out at work instead of your father

I just tell'em I ain't got one

What effect has that had on you?

well, I don't think it's had any effect on me because

what you don't have you don't miss

twenty years ago 20

when I was born, you know, an illegitimate child that's..

something that is only whispered about

people

you know, feel

feel strongly about it in those days but nowadays..

it's..

it's not a serious matter

the serious point is whether you stay with somebody or you leave them

What would you like to give your children that you never had?

they've got everything

they've even got what I never had

so..

- Which is what? - a father, isn't it?

so, I mean, they've had everything

I feel like bundling when there's already a.. when there's already a fight

Simon was brought up in a children's home.

He went back to live with his mother when he was thirteen. 13

I was at a boarding school and I liked the discipline

it gave me a kind of freedom

Do you encourage that with your children?

yeah, I like to encourage that, they go to bed the same time every night

and they get up round about the same time every morning

and they go to school the same time everyday

you know, it's good to have discipline and routine

But what about in your life? Do you think there has been too routine?

no, not really

I mean, somebody else might think so yeah but I enjoy

having a routine and I enjoyed knowing where I was going to be next

and what I had to do next

because that sort of relieved me from responsibilities

At 21 he was working in the freezer room of Wall's Sausages in London. 21

How do you see the future? As far as work goes.

well, I know I can't stay at Wall's forever, I mean, this is just not me

I couldn't stay there for that long, my mind would go dead

how long have I been there? about eight or nine years or something like that

there's a lot of people I know there now when I first went there, I mean...

it's getting to know people, now

that I've been there so long, I know practically everybody who's in there

now I don't think my mind will go dead because I have a lot to talk about

everyday go to work, you know there's always

somebody says something smart, you know

someday..

I'll be just like anybody else

nothing too marvelous

I feel okay just getting on with life

just sort of keeping up

but I know if I really wanted to I could get on

it would only take a little spark in me to do it

I'm quite happy to stay there

doesn't look like it's going to close down, so, I mean

better the devil you know, isn't it

Do you ever feel you should be doing better jobs than these?

Aren't you worth more than this?

no, I haven't really

I suppose I just like hard work, I don't know

but um..

it's never really

sort of worried me

I suppose it should, but it just doesn't

not really interested in moving up

up the scale

why?

I don't need the hassle of being a

charger or the manager or whatever

I had a dream when

when all the world was on top of me

and

and everything was... and I just about got out

and everything flew in the air

and it all landed on my head

see, I mean everybody's got the same start

they've got that little bit of grey matter in their head

and it depends how they use it

and for what purpose

yeah, if you're just going to be like me and take it easy for you life

if you're going to be somebody who really wants to go far

well you have to push yourself

if you don't push yourself, you won't go up

And did you want to go far? Push yourself?

um...

no, I want to get through life nice and easy

Simon and his family live in a Council Flat in Southwold, London

What do you think about rich people?

well..

not much

Tell me about them.

well they think they can do everything without you doing it as well

rich people, they have all different things

they have everything they want whereas poor people

they don't have nothing and they know they haven't got nothing

and so they know they are missing something

What are you missing?

well, I'm missing a bike and

a fishing rod

Are you envious of people who have a lot of money?

no, I may have been but

I can't envy them now because

I've got what I want so

there's nothing that anyone can give me that's going to make me any happier

I could save for months and then one day just go out and spend it

and that's that I would feel quite happy about it

I wouldn't worry about getting the next penny

if you don't plan anything, you'll never get by anyway

you could have millions and you wouldn't know what to do with it

if you just keep spending it, you have to know what you are spending

everybody's gotta get used to

knowing colored people

and colored people in turn have got to get used to

being with white people

because if either side doesn't work properly

then no side will work properly

they're just the same as me aren't they?

I mean, do you think it's hard being a black man in English society today?

It depends what you want, isn't it?

if you just want to live in the society, no it's not hard

if you want to fight the society, yes it would be hard

And have you ever wanted to fight it?

not really, no there's no need for it

I've been to Madame Tussauds with my mum

and the..

planetarium

Do you want to go abroad?

um...

yeah

I'd like to go to Majorca

and take a couple of weeks out there for everything

relax myself

I think I might like to, sort of, go out of this country

probably just for a holiday

first... somewhere... anywhere...

and then sort of..

think about

settling down somewhere else

I mean, I could have got a job

in..

some foreign parts

working for some an auto.. packing firm

but when it came down to it I didn't want to move, I didn't want to leave

so, I mean

I've probably got a very narrow view

of life because I don't really like traveling

Does that worry you that you have that narrow view? - worry me?

you keep asking if things worry me, no

Does it concern you then?

yeah, that's a different word

no, not really it doesn't really concern me

And what would you want for the future?

watching my kids growing up and when they're grown up

maybe seeing their children grow up as well

Looking at some of the earlier films it would seem that you had a sad childhood.

You didn't have a dad and you didn't have a lot of material things.

no, I wouldn't really call that a sad life

it's a different life to somebody with everything or

thinks they have everything but I mean

it doesn't matter if you've got

everything, all of the material things in the world, I mean

you're not going to be happy anyway because you'll still want the next thing

down the road

At the end of their very special day in London

after their trip to the zoo and the party

we took our children to an adventure play ground

where they could do just what they liked

Those from a children's home set about building a house.

There's Nicholas.

And Tony.

Andrew.

And Bruce.

John.

Suzie.

Jackie and her friends.

Give me a child until he is seven... 7

and I will give you the man.

This has been a glimpse of Britain's future.