Original subtitles

- Ooh, ooh.

- We'll breathe deep.

- Yeah.

- 'Cause you have to breathe deep

before you do anything.

- On August 16, 1958,

Silvio Ciccone drove his wife Madonna

to Mercy Hospital in Bay City, Michigan

to give birth to their first daughter,

a child who would be named after her mother,

and who would become one of the biggest stars

in entertainment that the world has ever known.

Madonna was raised in this ranch home in Pontiac, Michigan.

The Ciccones already had two children

before Madonna arrived, and they would have

two more children after her.

Madonna's mother became seriously ill,

and spending time with her children became more

and more of a struggle

until she eventually passed away.

Madonna was just five years old.

Raising five children on his own wasn't easy for Silvio.

While he was at work, Madonna and her siblings spent a lot

of time at this Bay City home of their grandmother

and at this very park directly across the street.

When Madonna was an adolescent, the family moved

to a more affluent neighborhood in Rochester, Michigan.

It was here in this building on Main Street that Madonna,

as an early teen, entered ballet school.

The teacher, Christopher Flynn, took a liking to Madonna

and they developed a friendship.

He mentored her and taught her about art and culture

outside of suburban Michigan.

He also convinced her that she was special

and that she was beautiful, words she wasn't used to,

and words that she needed to hear.

Christopher became a dance teacher

at the University of Michigan and convinced Madonna

to apply for a scholarship.

It was here that Madonna met a graduate dance student

named Peter Kentes.

- The dance program at the University of Michigan

at the time was a conservatory approach.

There were only about 50 dance majors total

between undergraduates and graduates.

The first time I actually saw her was in the dance lounge

where the dancers would hang out between classes.

What stood out to me was the fact that there she was.

Everyone else was sort of sitting around relaxing

and she was workin' hard.

- For his graduating thesis project,

Peter included his new friend Madonna in the choreography.

- Madonna's character was very specific.

Her character was based on the customers

that came into this liquor store late at night.

So, she was able to take that as a theme and develop that.

Sorta spicy, sort of very similar to her own personality.

I think it was easier for her to get in character,

and she added spice to the dance.

The pictures I took a few weeks

before the show one afternoon,

and I did all the dancers at different times,

but the one photo that Madonna maybe wasn't happiest about

was where she's bending over looking between her legs,

but I think the reason is because during her solo

I accidentally let that one stay up

on the wall a little bit too long.

- Peter was very into astrology

and predictions based upon birth dates

and how the moon, sun, and stars are aligned.

- These two.

- Yeah, I was a self taught astrologer.

I have maybe 30 or 40 books that I purchased

and read and studied.

One of the things I enjoyed doing

was doing charts for people, birth charts.

I was never a person that sort of like read my horoscope

and not go out that day, but when I did Madonna's chart,

- And you can see the full-- - and I had done maybe

over a hundred readings for friends up to this time,

but this was the first one where the reading,

everything sort of came out

she was gonna be rich and famous.

- It's gonna be such a crazy ride for you.

- Here I was looking at a skinny 18 year-old

with bruised up legs and red plastic shoes,

and there couldn't have been a more unlikely candidate

to be rich and famous than Madonna when she was 18.

Except in her mind, I think that was her plan all along

because she didn't seem surprised when I told her.

- I've never seen it do that.

- I hadn't heard from Madonna for a few months.

School had started, and she had not enrolled.

I got a call saying she needed a ride to the airport

and I said, yeah, sure.

And I went, picked her up.

She had her little doll under her arm,

a little backpack, and a suitcase,

and Christopher, her ballet teacher, was there as well.

We piled in the car, and we took her to the Metro Airport,

Detroit Metro Airport and dropped her off.

She was ready to leave.

She was ready to move on.

She wanted to go.

She wanted to go to New York.

She was excited to be going.

It was a little trepidatious

because it's such a scary thing.

- Immediately upon arrival,

Madonna began taking dance classes with Pearl Lang

and other notable teachers.

She was prepared to do whatever it took

to become a professional dancer.

- I met Madonna.

I had a lot of friends over the years who were dancers.

Yeah, dancers, actors, musicians.

I had a really good friend named Michael who was a dancer,

and he was studying with someone named Pearl Lang,

who was an avant garde dancer.

So, I was invited to a party, and people were dancing

on the living room floor, and I noticed this woman

who was dancing, spinning in the middle of the floor,

and it looked as though she was dancing in a ring of fire,

and everyone was moving around her.

I had a sense that she was somebody

who was gonna do something in the world.

She kinda came up to me and said, "Oh, nice arms.

"You kinda look like Brando a little bit."

That was kind of her lead in.

So, I got the sense that that might go somewhere.

She called me up the next day.

She was over at Michael's house.

They had-- - Hello?

- It seemed like they had a thing going,

but she called me up from his house

and said, "Get your gorgeous Brando body over here,"

which was a nice, definitely a nice come on.

- Well, good morning.

- Yeah, so are you coming or not?

- I said, why don't you guys come over here?

I don't know why I suggested they come to my place.

- All right, so I'll see you--

- Bye.

- But it didn't really go any further than that.

She had to go to dance class.

I got the feeling that she was very committed to dancing.

Seemed like she was always off going somewhere,

had something to do with dancing or performance.

Working really, really hard, almost like obsessively hard,

and I know she was doing the modeling.

I know she was waitressing a little bit,

but I got the feeling that she didn't have a lot of money.

- Oh God, I don't wanna be this.

- Yeah, but then you say - Why would you want this?

- to yourself, man, look at what I can do,

that other people, they wouldn't think of doin'.

- I mean, I guess, but-- - I know, I know part of it

has to do with your head, right?

I know that it's true, but other people

wouldn't think of doing the stuff that I do or you.

- Well, of course not, but people always look at,

they always look at you before they look at what you do.

- To make ends meet, Madonna began working

as a model for nude photography classes

at The New School and other locations in New York City.

- My first session with Madonna was in 1979 in February,

and I think, if I recall, I had spoken

to the model registrar, and I said look,

can you send me a girl who really has a really nice body?

And that's how I got Madonna to come to class,

and I was very pleased, obviously.

To me, she was very beautiful and pretty

and had a fantastic body, and that's the first time.

I always said, look, for the guys,

get your dick out of your brain or something.

This is not about sex, it's about sculpture.

It's about a body.

It's about what you can show with it.

And then I put the model in different positions

to accentuate form.

My photographs were very sculptural,

there was nothing about sex in them.

That's how I see it.

I didn't get the impression she enjoyed it, necessarily.

It was something to do to make some money.

It's just here I am.

I'm naked, I'm nude.

Take your pictures of me, and let me outta here

and get me paid, you know?

- We liked to hang out on the Upper West Side,

like up near Grant's Tomb, areas like that.

There were Corinthian columns,

buildings that had classical Greco-Roman architecture.

We liked each other a lot, and we were attracted

to each other, but I don't know if there was

any potential for a long term deeper thing.

So, we basically drifted apart

over the period of about three months we were together.

I hadn't seen her for several months,

and I bumped into her on 34th Street.

- N.B.!

Norris!

- And, just bumped into her on the street,

and I say, hey, how ya doin', Madonna?

Nice to see you.

And she was really warm and affectionate,

and we talked a little bit.

- I quit dancing.

- Wait, what?

What do you mean, you quit?

I thought that was the whole reason you came here.

- She said, "Well, ya know, I just felt like

"it wasn't going anywhere.

"Also, I felt like my body was hurting,"

and I realized that, she realized

that this would be her life.

- So, now what?

Now what are you gonna do?

- Maybe acting or music?

- So, I invited her to this party.

I said I think you might meet some fun people there,

some interesting, there's gonna be a lot of artists,

musicians, colorful, your type of people.

I think you might dig, you might enjoy the scene.

So, she said, "Yeah, sure, I'll be there."

Lo and behold, she was.

- I first met Madonna at a party

given by my friend Norris Burroughs.

She seemed to be,

looked like she felt out of place at the party.

- I met Dan at a hand painted T-shirt company

called the Lotus Shop,

and it was Saint Mark's Place in the East Village.

I kind of gravitated towards Dan

because we were both musicians as well as artists,

and we had a similar sort of sense of humor,

and we both kind of like were attracted

to the same women, which was an interesting,

something that manifested over the years

with interesting results.

- I mean, yes.

I mean, I am doing what you asked,

and you're socializing?

- As beautiful as she was, that kind of thing

didn't exactly, ya know, gee, I gotta go hang out,

'cause it looked like she didn't,

was not really enjoying herself all that much.

I could even be wrong.

Maybe that was just her way.

- I wasn't sure if anyone...

- Sorry, this stupid clasp keeps--

- I don't remember exactly what the issue was.

It was either a broken clasp or a button or something,

but she asked for assistance,

and whatever it was that needed doing,

I helped her with it.

- Thanks.

Well?

Aren't you going to kiss me?

- It actually, it felt a little like a scene

from a movie to me, because ya know,

"Aren't you gonna kiss me?"

Have I heard that in a, I'm not sure.

I did kiss her, though.

It wasn't a long kiss.

I mean, it was, 'cause I had just met her

and she was so beautiful.

- I knew he was gonna be there,

but I wasn't really thinking along those lines,

but when I first saw them together,

I noticed that there was an attraction between them.

So, it seemed inevitable in the moment.

- We left together, we left the party together,

and walked around.

We walked around the place, around Manhattan,

for about an hour or so.

And then I said goodbye to her at wherever she was headed.

I think it was a stairway, and there was

a little romantic interplay,

and she went off down the hallway.

She was very assertive, though, a very assertive person,

and it made me certainly wanna see her again,

and I think a few days later, we had our first date.

We took a bus ride up to The Cloisters.

I met her at the bus.

We were the only ones on the bus,

so, I took a bunch of pictures on the way up there.

And then the bus filled in a little while later.

We took some more pictures and some kids were gawkin'

at what's goin' on, and she had 'em come back

and pose for a picture.

This is the first time I was ever with her,

and she was doin' all kinds of antics on the seat,

the back of the thing,

lying on the back of the seat with her head down,

just posin' for pictures.

I had a camera, and she was right there

posing for the pictures.

I think I had been to The Cloisters in grade school

as like a trip, like some kind of field trip.

The Cloisters was a convent that was brought over,

every stone was brought over and rebuilt.

- Well, everybody had long hair in Jerusalem

when Jesus Christ was young.

They all must have looked sort of androgynous, right?

- Yeah. - 'Cause they had on

those long robes on and stuff.

- Yeah. - Right?

- Yeah, except the men all had beards.

- Oh yeah.

When do you think the guy first shaved,

the first guy shaved?

- I'm sure they trimmed their beard with rocks.

The first guy that shaved, it couldn't have been

a very close shave with a rock.

- Wonder why he started to do it.

Bet ya guy got a zit and he needed to squeeze it out.

- Or-- - Shaved it off.

- A bat got caught in it.

- Or a mouse?

- Yeah, a creature. - But how come--

- Everyone said it looks pretty good.

- But how-- - This is good.

- How come rats are ugly and mouses aren't?

- It's the scale.

- Dan was living in Corona Queens

with his brother in an abandoned former synagogue.

- Some friends of mine from graduate school

found this old synagogue in Queens,

and they poured a new floor and put in electricity.

It had been abandoned for 15 years.

And one guy left, somebody got married,

and they asked me to move in, so, I did.

- Dan invited Madonna over to the synagogue

where they would spend more and more time

getting to know each other.

It was here that Madonna would begin her journey into music.

- Danny and Madonna were seeing each other.

This is probably the beginning, I'm thinkin' '78.

They met at a May Day party,

probably with, I think it was Norris Burroughs's party.

So, they hit it off.

They started seeing each other,

and she would come over and stay.

So, that's how I met her over here in the synagogue.

This is the way we got in.

Even though there's a gate in the front,

back in those days that gate was kaput.

So, we had to come in this way.

It's a wonderful neighborhood, you'll love it.

No.

So, come on in.

This is the studio where we rehearsed,

we played, we jammed.

This is, you know, the general living space

where everybody kind of would congregate.

By everyone, I mean me, Dan, and Madonna,

and then we'd, you know, play around.

Here are the drums.

These are the drums Madonna played.

Danny played 'em.

Mike Monahan played 'em.

They're still here.

She used to put her gum,

she used to put her gum on this post here,

and there's still little pieces of gum there.

- You walked in and saw everything.

There were guitars here, there was a bass over here,

and a whole set of drums.

I don't think she thought I'm gonna be a drummer,

but there's a guy playing guitar,

and here we're playin' music.

- I think drums was the instrument that Danny first,

you know, showed her stuff to do.

- As a dancer, she was always into counting, ya know,

everything, eight counts, and it fit right into drumming,

so it was a very smooth transition from dancing to drumming.

And after just goin' through a few little,

she picked up on it pretty easily, ya know?

- And then, you know, it would just be,

if someone's playin' drums you'd start playin' along

with them, and then there was jamming that would happen.

So, she would be playing drums,

and learning how to play drums all day long.

And then the feet.

She's got the feet in there opposite the snare,

and away we went.

- At the time, Dan Gilroy and his brother, Ed,

were performing as a two man musical act called Bill and Gil

in a variety show in New York City called Voidville.

- Bill and Gil was a two man performance.

We used guitars.

We used percussion.

That's how Bill and Gil started.

Ed and I had a performance at Voidville,

a theater in New City on 2nd Avenue,

and Madonna, she came over to the synagogue

and came to the show.

There's a photo of her making herself up in the bathroom

with that pink and black tight leotard kind of thing,

but that was just before we were going to do Voidville,

but she wasn't living here at the time.

- So,

there ya go.

- She looked fantastic in this leotard.

I took a bunch of pictures.

I think she had red shoes on, red shoes with high heels.

Anyway, I took a bunch of pictures of that.

In fact, I asked her to come upstairs at the synagogue

because the space was big.

Pictures looked really great with

that shocking pink right in the middle

of this gray brown synagogue.

- A recording artist named Patrick Hernandez

was interested in having Madonna

be part of his show in Paris.

His song, Born to Be Alive, was a tremendous hit,

and his team offered Madonna visions of her own stardom

if she would come with them to France.

- She looked like a perfect punk,

like that ideal, right?

That's why they brought her over there.

He was gonna release Disco Queen, and she was like,

ya know, that thing they were thinking about.

- She goes to France with the Patrick Hernandez show

over the course of that summer.

- Dear Dan, I was crazy to put four letters

in the mail at once.

I'm sure it makes a person feel popular,

but after all, you are very lovable,

and I'm not such a heartless fiend,

although I'm sure I appear that way to many people.

I have a lot of leisure time now, much to my frustration.

I can't stand the thought of doing absolutely nothing.

It's a nightmare to think about it.

I'm so full of anxiousness and ambition,

and I long for some responsibility, some hard work,

and certainly some sweat.

Those are the things that make me feel real,

besides you, of course.

- She wanted to create stuff,

but I'm not sure she knew exactly what vehicle to use.

- This is my last stay in Paris,

and I wonder if the sky will always be so gray.

I long to put my arms around you, and to kiss you,

and hold you really close.

Au revoir, mon cherie.

- So, the Patrick Hernandez thing, for her,

I guess ended at the end of the summer,

or in the beginning of autumn,

and so she came back to New York.

- I and my sort would struggle against tradition,

try at least to displace old cants with new ones.

I thought I was right about life at various times,

but faith is difficult.

- Dan and Madonna resume their relationship

right where it left off.

Soon after, they decided to live together.

- And she would stay over here,

they'd stay over there, stay over here,

and then it just kind of gradually she wants,

I'd like her to stay here, he said so.

You know, we had 3,400 square feet of living space,

and we only had one kitchen and one bathroom.

So, we had to kinda work on that.

Over here's the sink.

Good old New York sink, the original, one and only.

Madonna made a lot of popcorn here, I could tell ya that.

There was always the smell of popcorn in the house.

Either Parmesan cheese on it or paprika

or there was pepper or something like that.

She loved popcorn.

This was a tough town, New York, back in the '70s.

She didn't have a place to say after awhile.

So, it was just, seemed to be

the right thing to do, ya know.

- My rat's dead?

- Nah,

- Sounds very French Japanese.

French Japanese French, eh?

- There's one thing I don't,

there's one thing I,

there's one thing I, there's one thing

I don't like. - I just can't even

quite get around to talking about it.

- One thing I don't really like, there's one thing I...

- But hey, ya know, I'll tell ya one thing.

- Did you ever-- - You know, we're patient.

- Patient? - Yeah.

Yeah, I don't know if I ever did, I'm not sure, but...

- Well, I don't know why a patient could be patient.

- Wonder.

Well, listen, number one, wondering is very good,

and I'm glad you've been wondering.

- I remember after she came back from Europe,

she called me and I went to meet her.

They were shooting that film A Certain Sacrifice.

- Madonna was also scouring the help wanted ads

in the acting and talent trade magazines.

And with that, she landed a role in the student film.

- I put an ad in Backstage Magazine, is it?

And I believe it said something like I'm looking for

a dominatrix with dark hair who can dance and act.

I was sort of irritated by the kind of people I was finding,

and then I was going through all this stuff,

and I was throwing things out, and something

that I had missed was Madonna's letter that she wrote to me,

and a picture of her dropped out of this envelope,

and she was just putting lipstick on,

and it was an incredibly sexy picture,

and I was like, I don't really have to look any further.

And then of course she wrote this three page letter,

which is pretty amazing.

It was kind of a history of her life

up to that point in time.

At the end of the letter, she put a little tiny thing

in little type, is that all?

And it was very cute.

So, the year and month that I started filming

A Certain Sacrifice was September of 1979,

and the first scene was the fountain scene

where Madonna is dancing with Dasheil, the protagonist,

and as I was filming it, I was filming it by myself,

no sound man, no camera man, it was just me and them,

so the three of us, and I was sort of dancing

in the fountain with them trying to keep

the water off of my camera, but that was all improvised.

So, basically just here's what's gonna happen,

and they just go for it.

That, to me, was the magic of making this movie.

There was a lot of direction.

There was, the same time, who she was

created partly what the movie was.

She was very beautiful back then.

I still think she's beautiful.

- I told them that I was in love with you.

- And what'd they say?

- They were heartless and,

and then they were really jealous, just jealous.

- If there were lines to rehearse,

she always had them rehearsed.

She always was on time, and even though this movie,

and she knew it, was not a professional production,

she was going to put the best into it that she could,

and she did every time.

- That film is just really bizarre.

I don't think I would have wanted

to have anything to do with that movie,

with all due respect to the director.

- It depends on how you look at this movie.

If you're looking at it as if you're gonna look

at a Hollywood production,

you are gonna be really disappointed.

If you look at it as street life in New York in the '70s,

I think it's great.

Obviously there's a lot of amateur stuff in it,

but when it gets it right, it's really, it's fun.

- You can make the effort, you can have the desire,

but it's not enough.

Need something more.

- All the while, Madonna kept up

with her drumming practice, and she was soon ready

to take on the challenge of learning another instrument.

- She already could keep the beat.

So, naturally, she wanted to get more into music

than just drumming, not that drumming isn't music.

Well, people say, oh, you taught Madonna how to play guitar.

Actually, it's like riding a bicycle.

No one actually teaches you.

They hold your head, and at some point

you learn yourself, right?

- Madonna's friend Angie,

who had a small role in A Certain Sacrifice,

was a bass guitar player, and Madonna thought

she should introduce her to the Gilroys as well.

- Angie was kind of tall, stately.

She was a ballet dancer, gorgeous big beautiful lips.

You'd just be quite taken with her, and Madonna was.

- Dan and I were between bands at the time,

and Madonna was playing, and the three of us

were kind of just, ya know, playing around here,

and Dan and I had a bunch of songs, too.

And so Madonna asked Angie to come over,

'cause Angie had a bass.

So, Angie came over, and that's how

the first Breakfast Club started.

We had Madonna on drums, Angie on bass,

and Dan and me out front with the guitars.

The material we did was stuff that Dan and I

had already, a lot of it was stuff

that was already in the mix.

We did songs like Curtis Come Back.

¶ Curtis come back ¶

¶ We want you over on our side. ¶

- That was a good song.

Madonna on drums on Curtis Come Back, Angie on bass,

Dan and me on guitars.

- It kinda felt like it was gonna be the sort of band where,

like a Fleetwood Mac thing where you'd have

Lindsey Buckingham and Stevie Nicks and Christine McVie

taking turns on vocals, or they would harmonize.

- We did a song called Trouble, which she was out front,

and the three of us wrote, Dan, Madonna, and I.

¶ Trouble, trouble, trouble, trouble, trouble ¶

¶ Trouble, trouble, trouble, trouble, trouble ¶

¶ Trouble, trouble, trouble, trouble, trouble ¶

¶ Trouble, trouble ¶

- Dan was on drums, Angie and I

were on guitar and bass, Madonna up front.

¶ Trouble, trouble ¶

¶ I've got this trouble in my body ¶

¶ When no love's in my heart ¶

¶ Oh ¶

- Angie's days with the band were numbered,

and although fun at first,

she didn't last long in the lineup.

- Angie was great.

I'm a big fan of Angie's, always have been, always will be.

Great person, good woman, strong,

strong fingers playin' the bass.

She was at a little disadvantage, though,

'cause the three of us lived here.

- Knock knock.

- Who's there?

- Olive.

- Olive who?

- Olive you.

- I love olives.

Got any?

- Whoa, that's shootin' ya

in the foot. - You gonna eat that?

- At any given moment, you could just say,

I need to, can we just work on this harmony

for a couple of seconds?

And then that would turn into a half hour, an hour

of working on the material.

And could we just go over this drum part,

and the bass, things like that.

But Angie didn't live here.

- I just feel bad.

- I have mixed feelings about Angie.

I just feel like we were giving her parts

that were too hard, or it could have been

more like Rolling Stones, you know,

like,

- I guess.

- Madonna didn't really wanna work in that foursome anymore,

and with good reason, because she knew it wasn't really like

an act that would go.

There was a little bit of a competition there.

One time Angie said, in front of Madonna, about me,

"I will have him."

And Madonna was like, "Oh, go ahead, I don't care."

So, it could have been, that could have been part of it,

you know, who is the audience looking at here?

Man, they're worse than marriages, the bands.

Really, the breakup, 'cause there's so many people involved.

That was the worst.

Anyway, that was the worst, when Angie.

- It just was time for a change, and Gary became available.

- Gary Burke was a childhood friend

of the Gilroys and a former band mate as well.

¶ Hasn't it been a long winter ¶

- It was Dan, Ed, myself, and Mike Monahan.

Called ourselves the Acme Band,

which I still think is a great band name.

- So, we had Gary, Mike, Dan, and me comin' over here

and just playing for the fun of it.

It was just really so much fun.

¶ Is all blue ¶

- It wasn't like we had Gary waiting in the wings.

Nothing was happening for a week or so or even more,

but we knew Gary was around, and we wanted to play gigs.

So, I think we just invited Gary over.

- See, I wasn't privy to their discussions,

but all of a sudden, I was invited

to be the bass player. - One, two, three, four.

¶ I don't have far to go now ¶

¶ But it certainly seems so ¶

¶ With you at the end of the line, dear ¶

¶ I really do wanna go ¶

¶ But this wind, it keeps whippin' in on me, yeah ¶

- So, ¶ The cold wind ¶

- They just said like, do you wanna join the band?

And so I said yeah,

okay, I'm in.

¶ Oh yeah ¶

¶ Sometimes my spirit's empty ¶

¶ And I need to fill it up ¶

¶ I know that there is plenty ¶

¶ But I never get enough ¶

- I was the new bass player.

Angie Smit was out, I felt bad about that.

I had mixed feelings, I don't like, you know,

I don't like all that band,

¶ That keeps whippin' ¶

- that band stuff that goes on when people get replaced

and this and that, you know, hurt feelings and all that.

I'm not comfortable with it.

So, I had mixed feelings, but I kinda had a crush

on Madonna at this point,

even though she was Dan's girlfriend.

¶ Sometimes I try to attract it ¶

¶ Sometimes I try to attract it ¶

¶ Sometimes I try to attract it ¶

- It was the Acme Band, so it was the same four members

plus this intriguing new chick.

Chick.

¶ It keeps whippin' ¶

- It was like people you play ball with or something.

It was like people you knew come on over and we'll play.

¶ Cold wind, it keeps ¶

- We could already play fairly well together.

¶ Oh yeah ¶

- And Madonna was that new component.

¶ It keeps whippin' ¶

¶ It keeps whippin' in on me ¶

- It was a good band.

It was a good punky band.

Madonna would come out from behind the drums

and do her two songs.

¶ Whippin', whippin' ¶

¶ In on me ¶ - She had star quality.

I could see that right away, on night one.

- While we made that change, and brought Gary in,

we also brought in Mike Monahan back again.

- And Mike, who had been in the Acme Band,

he was gonna come back and be on drums again,

and that would free Madonna up to play the organ.

- We got a little keyboard, a Farfisa keyboard,

and Madonna played the keyboard for a while.

- With the band now fully fleshed out,

it was time to start doing some promotion

and getting some work.

- The photo that was taken in the alley here

goin' up the steps, it was just, we decided

we were gonna take some shots to advertise our gigs.

It was like, I think, Gary, he was sticking head out here,

and Dan, Mike, Madonna.

I was up on top, ya know, some silly pose

I'm not thrilled about, and that's where

this place was, right?

- Madonna and Dan managed to balance

their professional relationship with their personal one,

but Dan wasn't the only band member with eyes for Madonna.

- Hey, Madonna, can I talk to you for a sec?

- Yeah, what's up, bear?

- Did you want something,

but you weren't sure it was the right thing?

I mean, were you ever afraid to just say what you want?

- No.

- So, you know exactly what you want?

- Yes.

- Madonna wanted to be famous.

That was her thing, man.

And she didn't care if she got through it through dance,

through rock and roll, whatever.

She wanted to be famous.

- I will do whatever I have to do to get there.

- She would be so squirrelly, like I wanna be famous.

She wanted to be famous now, man.

Yeah, now.

- It's not funny.

- I know, I'm sorry.

- And she was like, you could just see it.

She was like, in her body language,

it's like, ooh, when's it gonna happen?

That kind of thing.

- What was it that you were talking about wanting?

- Nothing, I was just asking...

- Oh, I knew Gary and Mike had a crush on Madonna.

Everyone had a crush on Madonna.

The guy upstairs, John Horne, had a crush on Madonna.

I'm sure Gary and Mike had a crush on Madonna.

She's beautiful, she's in the band,

you're workin' with her every day.

- I did tell Madonna a few times how I felt about her.

I was working in a bookstore.

I told the manager of the bookstore that I was sick.

I went and I took the train and the bus.

And I knew she was alone at the synagogue that day.

It's a major betrayal type of thing, though.

You don't do this, 'cause they

hadn't split up yet.

- Hey, bear.

What are you doing here?

I've been working on this new song.

- Wait, Madonna, I came here because

I just had something that I really wanted to tell you.

- I'm sorry, of course, what's wrong?

- I shouldn't be here.

- Gary, just spit it out.

You're starting to freak me out.

- Okay.

Madonna, I don't want anything to come between me and Dan,

but I have feelings.

I just wanted to say it.

This was stupid.

I know you're with Dan, but...

- Do you wanna hear my song still?

- Are you gonna say anything about what I just--

- I don't know what to say to that.

I mean, I'm flattered.

- I think I should go.

I'm sorry, I shouldn't...

- It kinda like shocked her kind of thing.

I shouldn't have done that.

I wanted her to, I wanted to be Chris Stein

to her Debbie Harry, that kind of a thing.

- She always wanted to do something,

she wanted to be the center of attention,

so, we did a thing where we walked around New York.

We dressed in white, we walked around New York

playing through a little Pignose portable amp

that I was wearing.

We plugged into it with a cable splitter

so we were both playin' out of this one amp,

and she was playin' chords, like these chords.

But in rhythm.

Like those All Along the Watchtower chords,

but she did it, was doing it with an open E,

'cause she didn't do the fingering then.

- They would dress all in white.

This was like during the Breakfast Club days,

and they would take their Pignose amps and go in the subway

and sort of busk, but electric instead of acoustic.

I never saw them, though.

They would go off, and they would come back,

and they were both dressed in white

with their Pignose amps.

They'd gone into the city, gone into Manhattan,

and just like played.

I kind of admired them both, 'cause I was too shy

to do that kind of stuff.

- So, we'd walk down the street

playin' our little...

It might have been the other way.

That was fun, that was so much fun.

- There's a song that Madonna wrote

called Daddy Won't You Please Come Home,

and it's a song that she writes about her father,

and it's just her on guitar and her singing by herself,

and it's a very tender song.

I mean, ya know, she's singin' from this little,

tiny little space in her heart probably,

which is a very tender spot.

¶ Oh, boy, I got a letter today ¶

¶ From my daddy, and here's what he had to say ¶

¶ Baby, won't you please come home ¶

¶ He said, baby won't you please come home ¶

- Then there's a song called Danny's Song,

which Madonna wrote about Danny Gilroy.

It's a beautiful song all about Dan's character,

and what it was like for her to be with him.

It's a very heartfelt song, but it's funny.

It's hilarious, ya know, like,

he doesn't care too much for money.

He leaves it there on the floor.

¶ Daniel likes to run when the sky is blue ¶

¶ And Daniel goes to the rooftop when the day is through ¶

¶ Well, he's watching the fleas in the alley ¶

¶ When the phone rings on the floor ¶

¶ But he doesn't pick it up 'cause he knows who it's for ¶

- I knew the exact moment when I thought she'd be famous.

She was playing guitar, strummin' really big and strong,

and she had really short hair then, combed back.

She looked like Bowie and Elvis to me,

strummin' away, and singin', and here I was

playin' the drums thinkin', hold on.

I think I'm lookin' at somethin' that's gonna,

something's gonna happen here.

- The next song is a song which Danny wrote

for Madonna to sing.

It's called Moving Along.

That's the song that we used to do

before we went into Trouble, 'cause this a slower.

¶ Movin' along ¶

¶ So move it along ¶

¶ I cannot be late tonight ¶

¶ But you believe in how my feet can fly ¶

¶ I just got to be on time ¶

- The next song here is a song called Simon Says.

This is a great track.

Danny put together a track and played it backwards.

So it's like

and Madonna sang it going forward.

¶ Says Simon here come shine my shoes ¶

¶ And you cry while you do it 'cause you got the blues ¶

¶ You say that your heart's going to break ¶

¶ Maybe soon you will see your mistake ¶

- And it's the first time that Madonna

heard herself on headphones on this one,

and she has one of those moments, ya know,

where it's like everything just hits it,

and there's some kind of a vibration that's comin' outta ya.

Ya don't know where it's comin' from.

This is what she kinda felt, I think,

when she had these headphones on,

'cause shes' goin', wow, it sounds really great in here.

¶ You said ¶

¶ Feel so good now ¶

- Madonna had started writing songs.

So, once Gary and Mike were in there,

she had a song called

¶ Again and again, over and over ¶

¶ Again and again, over and over ¶

¶ Again and again, over and over ¶

¶ Again and again, over and over ¶

¶ Ah ah ah ¶

- Ya know, she was just so cute, ya know?

You could just imagine.

¶ Again and again ¶

And it was a showstopper.

- We played one particular gig.

It was kind of a pop-up place.

It was called Bo's Space and it was

in the West 20s in Manhattan.

And we played a gig that night,

and the crowd really enjoyed it,

but there was a difference between when Madonna came out

and did her two numbers.

The crowd really went wild for those two numbers.

So, I guess that got into Madonna's head like,

hey, maybe I should sing more.

- At the Bo's Space thing, I think that that was maybe

the first time where she, I'm not sure,

but felt like, whoa, there's somethin' happening

with me and my microphone that isn't happening

when I'm behind a keyboard with someone else singing.

And that night in bed, it was, I felt a distance

that I hadn't felt before.

She was thinkin' about maybe she didn't wanna be in a band,

or she wanted to front the band.

- Before you knew it, Madonna and Mike came to me and said,

we're thinking Madonna should,

we think Madonna should do more numbers.

We think we should flip it.

We think Madonna should do eight out of the 10,

and the Gilroys should do two.

- Hey, guys.

Do you have a sec?

We have something that we would like to present to you.

- Okay.

- We were thinking that I could be the lead singer,

that I could be up front most of the time.

- This band has no lead singer,

and why would we make you the lead singer?

- We think that this is going to benefit the band.

- They said, we think what we need to do

is have Madonna be in front doin' her songs,

and us be in the backup band.

- No.

It would change the whole...

I don't know.

Dan, what do you think?

- I don't know.

I mean, these are our songs.

- Exactly.

We're the songwriters.

We're the main parts.

- I've written songs.

- You wrote two songs, Madonna.

You can't do a gig with two songs.

- 'Cause that was sensitive, ya know?

And the Gilroys weren't buyin' it at all.

- We weren't into that.

I didn't wanna be a side person.

- I kinda went along with it, probably once again

'cause I had a stupid crush on Madonna.

It was just like a pipe dream.

- She wanted to be out there.

She wanted her songs to be sung.

- Both sides went to their separate corners,

and we decided to request 50/50.

- What does that mean?

- I mean like 50% of the time I'm up front,

and 50% of the time one of you are up front.

- No, that's not what this band is.

- They said nope.

So that was surprising.

I woulda loved it if they had done that compromise.

I think everyone would have been happy.

- Okay.

Okay, well, then I think that we will start our own band,

and you can be up front all you would like in your band.

Come on guys, let's go.

- Mike and Gary thought that the best way to go

would be go with Madonna.

- So, it hurt a lot, but me, Mike, and Madonna split off.

- To Mike and Gary it was obvious

that this is an act that could happen.

To Ed and I it was like this is

this young upstart in the band.

- Dan, it's gonna be fine.

- For Dan and Madonna, it must have been quiet something

because not only was the band breakin' up,

but this was also the breakup of their being together.

- It's over.

You got what you wanted.

- What I wanted?

What the hell?

Dan, you're my brother, man.

You think I wanted to see you unhappy or something?

- No, Ed, I know.

You liked it better when it was just us living here.

There you go.

Everything's back to normal.

- Once the music breakup happened,

she was livin' at the synagogue with me,

and once the band broke up, it kinda,

it was all a big thing, ya know?

It was all one big thing, and the band breakup

signaled the beginning of everything breakin' up, yeah.

I was being brave, is what I was doing.

See, because it was obvious that Madonna

wasn't here permanently.

That was from the word go.

You could see she was kind of,

and you know you grab her for a little while is what it was.

- So, Madonna, Mike, and I went off.

We had to find a place to rehearse and stuff.

So, we ended up at this place called

The Music Building on 38th Street,

a little below Port Authority in Times Square.

Aye.

- Let me see.

- The Music Building was a place

where musicians could lease out rooms

to hold their equipment and to rehearse in.

- Well, The last time I was here was 1982.

So, it's really, really going down memory lane.

It's kinda freakin' me out.

- Madonna, Gary, and Mike couldn't afford

to rent a room on their own,

so they shared it with another band.

- But oh, this looks like the same horn

that Madonna was on a lot.

Always hustling, always hustling.

We called ourselves Madonna In The Sky.

There's no mention on the internet of Madonna In The Sky,

but that was our short-lived threesome,

Mike Monahan, myself, and Madonna.

It was the first time she'd ever been the front person

of a band, the total front person.

She was writing her little songs, playing rhythm guitar.

I was on bass and Mike was on the drums.

Songs like Safe Neighborhood.

¶ I live at the top of the hill ¶

¶ No one keeps me here against my will ¶

¶ I don't need no safe neighborhood ¶

¶ I got to feel good my own way, yeah ¶

- Yep, Madonna was pumpin' out songs.

I was doin' songs, too, but I didn't feel they fit the band.

I had my own singer songwriter thing goin' on.

I was always real super shy about presenting.

They didn't seem to fit, I was scared of rejection.

¶ Still life, 'til the breeze blows it all around ¶

¶ Still listening for a sign ¶

- Did you write that?

- Yeah.

Just a little somethin' I've been workin' on.

- Once in awhile Madonna would overhear a song,

or I would leave a tape around.

- I like it.

Keep working on it.

¶ Still life, at least until the breeze blows it all around ¶

¶ Still listening for a sound ¶

- Come on, guys, come on.

- Here we go. - Come on.

- She would dress us.

We would go to Saint Mark's Place,

which was like the Bohemian center

of New York City at that time. - Come on.

Come on, now.

- And she'd buy jackets.

Buy purple pants, you're gonna wear these purple pants.

You're gonna wear this red jacket.

Here's a peach colored shirt with a checkerboard pattern,

then she'd do the same for Mike.

So, she was in charge of that, too.

- Wow, that's...

What?

- I think I was in on

her very first choreography of the band.

She said, "Let's do this song on our knees."

And Mike was like, Mike was on the drums,

so, he didn't have to.

He was like, "Don't do that.

"What are you doing?"

So, we're like just doin' this song, crawling on our knees

while I'm playin' bass and she's playing guitar.

I was all in, like, okay.

You think that works?

Yeah, it's artistic, ya know?

¶ Bam ba boom bomm ¶

Poor Mike, he had a full time job as a,

it was Metropolitan Life Insurance.

So, he'd come from a long day of work,

come to The Music Building to rehearse,

and sometimes the beat would slow down or something,

and Madonna would go, "Mike!"

Ya know, and he'd like.

And then one day he came in, one hot August day,

he came in and said, "I'm done."

- What are you doing?

- I'm lookin' for my other stick.

What does it look like I'm doin'?

- You just need to start being on time.

This is getting ridiculous, Mike.

It's becoming an every night thing with you.

- Screw this.

I'm sorry if I'm not keepin' up with your standards,

but I have a job, I got bills

and you just don't get it. - Mike.

Mike, stop.

Look, you're just tired.

- Yeah, I am.

I'm really frickin' tired.

I'm tired of this whole thing.

I'm tired of this band, and just, it's just everything.

I just can't, I can't do it anymore.

I'm sorry, bear.

I can't.

- So, he quit.

Mike left the band.

So, then there was a period of time

where it was just Madonna and me,

and she was always on the horn tryin' to get guitarists,

tryin' to hire people, find a new drummer.

- Back when Madonna was in college,

she had met a drummer named Stephen Bray.

She got in touch with him, and he decided

to come to New York to join the band.

- Steve knew Madonna from Michigan,

and he came to town, and that changed everything for them.

- He's a drummer.

He's a musician.

He's gonna come to New York.

Okay, good.

So, Stephen Bray came to New York.

- A lot of that CBGB's thing back then

was anyone can do this.

We just get up and let's do it, but Steve was,

Steve had chops, serious chops.

- I remember the first day he came.

He's kind of amazed, as many people are,

but you could tell he had to like, wow.

I thought Detroit was big, that kind of a thing.

He got into New York right away,

and then he sort of took over the role of arranger,

you know, the leader of the group, sort of.

- And now, this new lineup

needed to find themselves a name.

- How about we just call it Madonna?

- Yeah.

I love it.

- I wanted to call it Madonna

'cause that made perfect sense to me.

- I hate that idea.

- Why not?

It's like rock and roll, man.

You wanna stir things up.

That's what we want.

- I'm not going to be in a band called Madonna.

- That'll piss people off,

people who believe in Jesus's mother or whatever.

It'll piss them off.

How dare she call herself Madonna?

And that was her real name, that's the funny part.

- How about we call ourselves No Name.

How about that?

- Wait, what's No Name spelled backwards?

Emanon?

How about Emmy for short?

It was actually a nickname I had growing up, too.

- I didn't wanna have that name, Emmy.

- Not bad.

I'll go for that one.

Emmy.

- Okay, so, we'll call it Emmy.

What a name.

What a horrible name for a rock group.

- The Music Building

was not designated for residents,

but with nowhere else to live, eating, sleeping,

and even bathing in the building was Madonna's only option.

- We kinda lived at The Music Building for a while.

Ya know, that's how bad it was.

It was really the salad days.

We were living in the studio.

We didn't have an apartment.

I had one, but I got kicked out of it or whatever.

- But even this little bit of security

would soon be pulled out from under them.

- All of a sudden, we were out of the room.

We were told the other group took over the lease.

You're out, you're out.

It's like, what?

- We're just being kicked out of the room.

That's all I know.

- They can't do that.

We have a lease, don't we?

- I don't know how it happened, even to this day.

- Brian Symms was a guitar player

that was renting a space in another room in the building,

and was not currently committed to any band,

which was perfect timing.

- Let's go talk to him right now.

- We needed a room, Brian was free, he had the talent.

So, that's how we formed that Emmy group.

¶ Emmy ¶ ¶ Emmy ¶

¶ She'd submit the call ¶

¶ It's so hot behind a wall ¶

¶ But she keeps it in a ball ¶

¶ Emmy ¶ ¶ Emmy ¶

¶ You'll never break inside ¶

¶ But if you wanna try, you won't make it out alive ¶

¶ Emmy ¶ ¶ Emmy ¶

¶ She'll slay you with a glance, put you in a trance ¶

¶ Are you sure you wanna dance with Emmy ¶

¶ Emmy ¶

¶ She's gonna steal your heart ¶

¶ And she wants to know that you want hers ¶

- She was churnin' out the songs,

but Steve would arrange them, so she'd come up

with the chords and the words.

Steve would write a rhythm.

I would come up with the bass part

or Steve would suggest a bass part, same with Brian.

He would come up with his own guitar part,

- I gotcha. - or Steve would say

try this and that.

So, he was sorta the arranger

- I got it. - at that point.

We were gettin' gigs around.

We had a New Year's Eve gig once near Times Square.

That was crazy.

¶ But if you wanna try ¶

- With each gig, the band was getting better

and they were working hard to put themselves on the map.

¶ Put you in a trance ¶

¶ Are you sure you wanna dance ¶

- She was on the phone every day.

She was the most aggressive,

you know other people just sorta like, you know,

they try to move their careers along,

but she was super aggressive about it on a daily basis.

Always on the phone trying to get a gig,

trying to get a manager, every day.

Madonna was like having a tiger by the tail.

She was only like 21 or 22 at the time.

¶ But don't expect to stack it right ¶

¶ You'll never ever see her cry ¶

- Hey, hey sorry.

You work with that music woman, the August Management.

- August Artists.

I'm her partner, actually.

- Oh, could you please give her this tape?

I'd really love for her to listen to our band.

- She's really busy right now.

I'm not sure she's gonna have time,

but I'll try to give it a listen.

- Well, we're really good.

Our name is Emmy, and I think that if you just

listen to the tape you would agree.

¶ She's a little heartbreaker ¶

- Yeah, I can do it.

- Mm.

- I stuck my finger in it,

and I got burned.

- Oh, yeah.

- Did you ever get burned?

- Not yet, no, but I bet you it'll feel familiar.

- That's a lie.

You've gotten burned.

Even Joan of Arc could tell you that.

She knows a singed body when she sees one.

- Oh, yeah, I've seen the pictures.

- Madonna found a temporary place to stay,

and was trying to find work, but things were looking bleak.

- There was a very, very cold night.

She was renting a room just around the corner

from The Music Building.

It was like two degrees out,

it was like the coldest day of the winter.

- Hello?

- And the heat in that building

she was renting a room in, it wasn't working.

So, I went over there, and she was like in a fetal position.

- Hey.

- Just really freezing.

"I can't stand this."

- What am I doing here?

I'm not getting anywhere.

What am I gonna do?

- She was so depressed, though.

When she was like, (whimpers)

she was ready to go back to Detroit.

She really was, she was ready to bag

the whole Music Building, the whole music thing.

She was so close to really bailing on the whole thing.

- I think maybe I should call Dan.

- "Go out to the synagogue?

"You think that he," 'cause they'd been split up

for X amount of months.

- It was cold.

I didn't think she felt well and she asked me

if she could come over to the synagogue again.

This is after our breakup and of course

I said, yeah, okay.

- He was probably heartbroken when they split up

a little bit, but he didn't hold a grudge.

- Madonna went back to Corona,

back to the synagogue, back to Dan.

- So she came over for maybe two days.

We went running in the park as we used to do.

She said, "I feel like I'm going backwards."

Meaning being here in Corona,

but it was a nice little, I don't wanna say

it was like the baby bird returning to the nest again.

It was a fun couple of days, but again,

it brought back that, it was like a breakup again.

How many of these can, ya know?

It was a little like that for me.

So, off she went.

- I think they had a nice healing kind of a thing.

Dan probably helped her stay in the game a little bit,

and I helped to the extent that I could.

I didn't want her to go back to Detroit,

but I could tell she was, it was not happening.

She wanted it to happen now.

- Adam, Adam.

- Listen, you can't keep following me around like this.

You're hounding me. - No, I'm not following you.

Did you give it to her?

- Yeah, I gave her your tape.

She's very busy, like I told you.

Eventually, maybe she'll have a chance,

but not right now. - No.

Not eventually.

- I think Madonna knew that there was this woman

who had a studio on the third floor.

So, I think she wanted her to come see our gig

and maybe sign us up.

- In February of 1981, Adam's partner, Camille Barbone,

was finally convinced to check out the band's performance

at Max's Kansas City.

- I had worked very hard

to get us a gig at Max's Kansas City.

That was a hard place to get a gig at in 1980, '81,

but I also sensed something and I was saying,

Madonna, I don't wanna rehearse for a month

and do this Max's Kansas City gig

if we're just gonna split up the next day,

I remember saying.

No, no, no.

- So, I went to see Emmy with Steve Bray and Gary.

It was interesting, because you could see

this gradual shift in direction,

that it was becoming more about her.

- We did the gig at Max's.

She was great, she was like crazy.

She was walkin' out on the tables, ya know?

Madonna was like in good form that night.

She was like really, had a good rapport with the band.

She was just like really doing good.

She was good that night.

¶ She's a little love taker ¶

¶ She's a little body shaker ¶

¶ She's a little heartbreaker ¶

¶ Troublemaker, troublemaker, troublemaker ¶

¶ Love taker ¶

¶ Body shaker ¶

¶ Heartbreaker ¶

¶ Troublemaker, troublemaker, troublemaker ¶

- She blew Camille away.

I knew Camille was there.

I was all for it, too.

¶ She keeps it in a fog. ¶

¶ Emmy ¶ ¶ Emmy ¶

¶ You'll never break inside ¶

¶ But if you wanna try ¶

¶ You won't make it out alive ¶ - But

Camille didn't want the band.

¶ She'll slay you with a glance ¶

¶ She'll put you in a trance ¶

¶ Are you sure you wanna dance ¶

- So, the next morning, I'm just like in our rehearsal room.

These two guys come in and say, "Did you hear?"

¶ She wants to know that you want hers ¶

- Your band is breaking up.

¶ She wants to know that you want hers ¶

- So I never even got it from the horse's mouth.

- Madonna later told me that Camille

had offered to manage her that night.

- I tried to play it cool like, yeah, whatever, ya know?

I felt bad about it.

I had laid it out there.

I don't wanna rehearse for the next month

if we're just gonna split the next day.

When that happens, it kind of pisses you off.

- Hey.

Madonna!

So, that's it?

You did exactly what you said you wouldn't do.

Oh no, I'm not gonna drop the band.

Well, this could be good for all of us.

No, no, Madonna.

You can't just ignore me, okay?

This is wrong.

- Gary!

What do you want me to do?

- She just turned and walked away.

I made her very uncomfortable.

- This isn't over, Madonna.

You can't just do whatever you want.

- You could tell she was embarrassed about it,

but she had to do what she had to do.

- Please open the door.

- It was very embarrassing, actually,

when I think back on it.

It was like, let it go, Gary, let it go. (laughs)

- It was this guy, you know?

- Yeah.

- I said, you do it.

I'm gonna be sick.

So, I walked out.

- Yeah.

- Well, the next day I came back.

- You threw up

on the guy. - No.

No, but he had saved one part of the rat

for me to scalp.

Guess what it was?

- I can guess.

- They were all bloaty.

It was icky.

I don't mean to be talkin' about these things,

but it's reality, ya know?

Reality's gotta be talked about.

- In March of 1981, Camille and Adam

signed Madonna to their management company.

Madonna immediately began working

on new music, ready to present herself

for the first time as a solo artist.

Using her industry contacts,

Camille began showcasing Madonna in nightclubs

around New York and Long Island.

One of those clubs was called U.S. Blues.

Camille hired photographer George DuBose

to capture this performance on film.

Her look was becoming more stylized

as she developed her new singular onstage persona.

Camille had also arranged for Madonna

to record a demo tape of some new songs.

The tape included songs like Love On The Run,

High Society, and Get Up.

¶ Get up ¶

¶ Get up ¶

¶ Get up ¶

¶ Get up ¶

¶ Get up ¶

¶ Get up ¶

¶ Get up ¶

- Madonna was flourishing as an artist,

but the relationship between she and Camille

took a bad turn, and Madonna no longer wanted Camille

to be her manager.

- And the rest of the breakups that happened,

she had to go off on her own.

That was just the way it was.

- No longer having a band,

and no longer having management support,

all that Madonna had was a demo tape

that she recorded with Stephen Bray,

which included a song called Everybody.

Madonna began bringing that demo tape

around to the dance clubs in New York

hoping to get a deejay to play it,

places like Danceteria and deejays like Freddy Bastone.

- I encountered Madonna

21st Street, Danceteria.

She was trying to get a record deal.

The deejays that were playing on the weekend were myself,

Mark Kamins, and it didn't even have to do

with the weekends.

She was coming, you know, seven nights a week,

Danceteria was open.

She was there seven nights a week,

and she was peddling her wares, so to speak.

I wasn't interested.

I know I look foolish saying that,

but it's the truth, and I'm not gonna say

I thought she was gonna be a genius, 'cause I didn't.

It wasn't my cup of tea.

I'd be stupid saying this now, but I probably,

if it came by me again, knowing what I know now,

I'd sign it, but if I didn't know,

I'd probably still say no way.

This is just like pop dance stuff.

The main deejay who took an interest was Mark Kamins.

I didn't take an interest.

He was one of the most groundbreaking deejays,

and he had the ears and the foresight

to know what was gonna happen with that artist.

He brought it to his company that he was working with

at the time, Sire Records.

- At the helm of Sire Records

was a man named Seymour Stein.

- Mark kind of had a deal with Sire

and Seymour that he would bring in records or acts

and give it to them first.

So, when he got Madonna, he brought it to Seymour,

and Seymour took Madonna on right away.

- To Stephen Bray's disappointment,

the record deal wasn't likely to happen

unless Mark Kamins produced,

even though Stephen had produced the demo recording.

- They signed her as quickly

as you can sign an artist.

I know it was not, they didn't think about it too much.

It was like they got Mark into the studio,

and they did Everybody.

Actually, I was invited to the studio.

I believe it was Blank Tape Studio.

I never went.

I wish I did so I can say I was there!

But no, I never was there.

It was because he said, "I'm doin' Madonna.

"You know, that girl that keeps on bothering us?

"We're signing her."

So, like a fool throughout this story,

Freddy the fool for Madonna, I did not go,

because I did not believe in the project.

- In October of 1982, Sire Records released

Madonna's very first single, Everybody.

- Sire Records, you gotta hand it to them.

They went after it.

- When Everybody came out on Sire,

Steve was really pissed off 'cause Mark Kamins

basically did the exact arrangement of the demo.

- I think Mark's production,

and I know what Stephen's work is, and it's very good.

Stephen is a great writer,

but Mark's deejaying capabilities and deejaying wizardry,

it was about creating chaos,

and creating a whole vibe,

and that's what he did with Madonna.

It was like a funky house New York sound.

Not taking anything away from Stephen.

He's a great producer, great writer,

but I don't think Stephen could have done that

for that first record, and they might have been lost

if they didn't go that direction.

Who knows?

- By November, the song entered

Billboard's Top 100 on the dance charts,

but Madonna knew that she still needed to push hard

to get the song played anywhere and everywhere possible.

- Oh, no, here she comes.

Lock the door!

So, my friend Michael would lock the door,

'cause I just did not wanna be bothered.

I didn't want her comin' up to the deejay booth

and standing there until I played it,

because that's what she would do.

She would stand there, give me the cassette,

and if she gave me the cassette,

she wouldn't let me hold it.

Ya know, having somebody standing there is just,

it gets to you.

You just want, you're like, what do you want, already?

So, you're either gonna play it, or you're gonna tell her

I'm not gonna play it, and I would tell her

I'm not gonna play it.

- Mark Kamins was on Madonna's side,

and was also very invested in having this record succeed.

- Because she knew Mark was in her corner at that time, too.

There was the pre-Mark, and then the after Mark.

So, the pre-Mark, I didn't really care.

But then after Mark, I was like, oh no,

I gotta start playin' this now. (grumbles)

That kind of music never got me,

that single solo girl pop star thing.

So, shows you what I know.

- With the help of deejays, record promoters,

and perhaps the biggest promoter,

Madonna herself, the song quickly climbed

as high as number three on the dance charts.

- It was a 24 hour shift.

I was just really, like eight cups of coffee,

feeling like chills and runny, and

¶ Everybody ¶

¶ Uh, uh, eh, eh, eh ¶

¶ Everybody ¶

came on the radio,

although it was kinda fun, there's Madonna,

it made me think, man, oh what happened?

Ooh.

It was depressing.

- And now, No Entiendes is proud to present

the world premiere of Sire Recording artist Madonna.

Now get up and do your thing!

- Madonna put together a track act performance,

and took it on the road starting out

at Danceteria. - Go on, girl.

- Woo!

¶ Everybody come on, dance and sing ¶

¶ Everybody get up and do your thing ¶

¶ Everybody come on, dance and sing ¶

¶ Everybody get up and do your thing ¶

- It wasn't a huge hit, Everybody, but it was a hit

in urban areas, in all the major cities in The States.

It was a good dance hit, it wasn't a pop hit.

- It was enough of a hit that Sire Records

gave Madonna another single release,

and then finally a full first album.

- I went to see her, and she had a track act going.

She had herself and another female dancer

and two male dancers, and I was really impressed.

She'd really gotten it together.

She saw me in the audience, and she smiled at me,

kind of like cranked it up a little bit

seeing that I was there.

And for some reason, I didn't go backstage.

At that point, I think I was a little intimidated.

To this day, I regret that I didn't go back

and stay and talk to her after that

'cause that was the last time I was anywhere

within 10 feet of her, with 100 feet of her, ya know?

- The release of Madonna's first album

coincided with MTV Music Television

taking over TV sets all over the world.

Music videos like Burning Up, Lucky Star, and Borderline

were making Madonna a household name.

- Ooh, it happened so fast.

After Everybody and Physical Attraction stuff,

those were like club hits.

Borderline was an MTV video in heavy rotation,

and it was on all over the radio, ya know,

that whole Reggie Lucas produced first album,

that was the eponymous album just called Madonna, right?

And she had her whole image together,

the East Village Bohemian thing, but she made it her own.

The bow and the hair and the rubber bracelets

and the BOY TOY buckle and the whole thing.

She'd really branded herself.

That's how smart she is, ya know?

It was a different route, and it was a fresher route

that she took, and so I think that aided,

and then the perfect storm of MTV and Madonna.

The camera loves her, as opposed to me.

The camera hates me, loves Madonna.

And the camera loved her.

I mean, she looked good in those early MTV videos.

So, like, bam!

Rocket to stardom there.

She was a video star.

¶ Video killed the radio star ¶

- For the very first MTV Video Awards Show,

rather than performing one of her current hits,

Madonna shocked viewers with an introduction

to the title track from her yet to be released second album,

Like A Virgin.

In November of 1984, Like A Virgin was released,

giving Madonna her first number one single.

- Usually, second albums are cursed, ya know?

It's like that second album, oh my God.

The second year on a football player's career.

It is always weird, the second year,

but her second album was mega.

I mean, I had to play it at the Palladium, Like A Virgin,

I had to play it three times a night.

"Can you play Madonna?"

- Madonna and Stephen Bray

remained on good terms, and she brought him

into the songwriting mix of the Like A Virgin album,

which went on to sell over 20 million copies.

- Steve saw that, ya know, I'm gonna stay with this path.

Even though he was pissed off that Mark Kamins

stole his arrangement, he didn't let it

blow up their relationship.

So, that was smart of him.

- In April 1985,

Madonna began her first major tour,

performing songs from her first two albums.

At this point, she was selling records

at a rate of over 75,000 per day,

and the tour was selling out as quickly

as tickets went on sale.

- I knew she was gonna make it,

but I didn't know she was gonna make it that big that fast.

So, it did blow my mind, and then as time went on,

she kept on staying at that level of fame,

or rising to a higher level of fame.

¶ Marilyn to Madonna ¶

It's like you're going, I played with that chick.

It's weird.

It's pretty mind blowing.

- She landed a small role

in the film Vision Quest, and then a major role

in the film Desperately Seeking Susan.

She was now well on her way

to becoming a worldwide superstar.

- She wanted it that bad, she's that ambitious.

She was not gonna be stopped.

- All the while, Dan and Ed Gilroy

had continued working on songs

and playing out as a two-man act.

- Dan and Ed Gilroy gave me a tape

of what they had been doing in the last year or so,

I guess it was, and I was playing it

'cause I was gonna rejoin them,

I was gonna go back to playing bass for them and stuff.

Steve heard it.

¶ That took a memory ¶

- He liked it, ya know?

¶ I can't wait, I don't wanna know ¶

- Gary happened to play some of our tape for Steve,

and Steve said, "Oh wow, what's that?"

- So, after Breakfast Club with Madonna broke up,

and then Emmy broke up, we were able to get Steve

to rehearse with us as he had been working with Gary,

and we put together the New Breakfast Club.

- And Steve and Gary came over here to the synagogue,

and we started doing the songs

that Dan and I had been workin' on.

- Getting Steve in the band was a big deal

because it took us to a really different level musically.

- We kinda became a dance synthesizer driven band

with drum machines, and it was sort of a Steve Bray thing.

- Stephen was really good in rehearsal

because it was like all business.

Let's do it, let's do it again,

let's do it over again, let's do it over again.

Instead of moving to the next song,

let's get this one right.

- Because of Stephen having co-written

several songs on the Like A Virgin album,

the band was able to get their demo tapes

into the hands of major record companies.

- But it was a lot of fun and it was exciting

being courted by A&R people and such.

- The phone rang, it was Irving Azoff from MCA,

and saying I wanna sign you guys.

That was the first I heard.

What a day that was.

- And then Breakfast Club got signed to MCA Records.

- In 1987, Breakfast Club

released their studio album.

- The big record on our thing was Right on Track,

which was a big summer hit.

It went to number like seven on the Billboard Hot 100.

You couldn't go anywhere without hearing it on the radio

or at the beach or something like that.

¶ Gonna make a move that knocks you over ¶

¶ Watch this turn, this one's gonna put you away. ¶

¶ Yeah, but I'm doin' my very best dancin', yeah ¶

¶ Every time you're lookin' the other way ¶

¶ I could move out to the left for awhile ¶

- And we got nominated for a Grammy as Best New Artist.

Madonna was very supportive.

She sent telegrams over here, ya know,

Great F, asterisk, asterisk, asterisk, asterisk,

I-N-G album.

- Did a lot of nice videos on MTV

back when they used to play videos,

and we used to do MTV veejaying, which was fun, too.

Hi, we're Dan and Ed.

We're from Breakfast Club.

Steve and Gary aren't here today.

- We miss 'em, to. - We love 'em.

- So, we had a pretty good relationship with MTV,

and we shot like six videos.

One of them was Kiss and Tell, which we shot in L.A.

¶ La la la la la, oh oh ¶

¶ I'll kiss and tell ¶

¶ And everybody's gonna know ¶

¶ La la la la ¶

- Silverlake, I think is where we shot it,

and Madonna stopped by.

- She did show up for Kiss and Tell.

It was our second video shoot.

- We weren't all that well known,

and Madonna coming to the shoot made an amazing stir.

- Madonna's here, you know, Madonna's...

She was pretty famous by then.

- The whole, the crew, and everybody,

the craft services people,

because Madonna was there. (laughs)

She come up to me, and gave me a big kiss on the mouth,

and everybody, suddenly my cache went way up.

It was like can I get you?

Can I get you?

Suddenly I was like, 'cause Madonna, Madonna.

And people were, can you introduce me to her?

- I was a little starstruck about it.

She had made it so big.

I was a little like tongue tied.

She was probably there more to see Steve and Dan,

I figured, or something like that.

- I hadn't seen her in awhile,

and she was huge at that point.

I hadn't seen her since she was not huge,

and the difference was pretty amazing,

the way people responded.

- Remember how all I wanted was for people to notice me?

Now, I find myself just hiding most of the time.

- And it might have been at a point

where she was just bein' hounded,

paparazzi and all of that, but yeah.

"Now, I spend all my time hiding."

¶ The ants play Bingo in your snout ¶

¶ Your eyes cave in, your teeth decay ¶

¶ Don't cry ¶

- Yeah, let's just, ¶ Don't ¶

- It's not serious at all. ¶ Cry ¶

Don't cry, Dan. - No.

- Don't cry.

- You said somethin'.

- Do you cry when I cry?

Do you taste your tears?

- In 2008 Madonna was inducted

into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

- I got a phone call from my niece livin' out in L.A.,

said, "Hey, did you hear?

"Madonna was inducted into the Hall of Fame.

"She talked about Uncle Eddie and Uncle Danny."

- It was a surprise that she mentioned me,

like right away, like that was great.

It was wonderful, in fact, and it changed my whole,

in town, the musicians in town were like, did you see that?

Suddenly, again, it's like we were with Madonna.

It's like she threw the spotlight.

- I have always been fortunate to have people around me

who believed in me.

Starting with my ballet teacher, Christopher Flynn,

and then there was Dan Gilroy.

He lived in an abandoned synagogue in Queens

with his brother, Ed.

They played in a band together.

I was sick of being an out of work dancer,

so he taught me how to play guitar.

I wrote my first song in that synagogue.

It was called, ironically, Tell the Truth.

- One, two, three, four.

¶ This is what I'm going to tell you ¶

¶ This is what I'm going to say ¶

¶ It's not very clear, but it's okay ¶

¶ Tell the truth ¶

¶ Tell the truth ¶

¶ Tell the truth to me ¶

- I remember that moment so, so vividly.

I remember the hair standing up on the back of my arms,

and I thought to myself, who just wrote that song?

- Ya know, that thing about when you hear something,

and you go wow, is this, and she said this,

when she wrote her first song, Tell the Truth,

right here on this Carlo Robelli guitar,

and right here in this room, she said,

"Oh, what is that?

"Is it me?"

- I felt like I had been possessed by some magic.

¶ I don't have far to go now ¶

¶ But it certainly seems so ¶

¶ But you are the end of the line, dear ¶

¶ I really do wanna go ¶

Madonna probably felt like her time here

was really a good time for her, ya know what I mean?

She came in and found that footing

that maybe she was looking for.

Am I gonna be a dancer or this?

She saw songwriters and all this music and instruments,

and so she was able to figure out I wanna be a songwriter.

I wanna put my stuff out there.

I wanna play music, and so, ya know, it had to be.

- There are many talented beautiful girls,

but she had the drive to push it all the way

to make every bit of her talent work and pay off.

- And she's smart, and she's a businesswoman,

and so she wanted it all, and she really did it.

- I mean, I knew that she was gonna make it

with that ambition.

I didn't think she'd be on the cover of Time,

necessarily, two years later, but she was. (laughs)

- She's the one who made it happen for herself.

You can be as male or female as you wanna be,

but you're gonna be your own person,

and I think that's what there is about Madonna

to this day that makes her so powerful.

- She's not some pop star that was molded by Madison Avenue

or the entertainment industry to become famous.

She's someone that was born that way,

and that essence is there until she's gone,

and maybe, who knows, beyond.

- One, two, ah.

¶ I see you and me on a boat ¶

¶ Or a raft or something that will float ¶

¶ And we're drifting ¶

¶ Little breeze, the gentle swell ¶

¶ Otherwise how can we tell if we're drifting ¶

¶ And if we don't know ¶

¶ Where we're going to, why should we care ¶

¶ We'll find out when we get there ¶

¶ I've got you ¶

¶ Oh I know no matter where we go ¶

¶ Let's keep drifting ¶

¶ And if they say ¶

¶ You're gonna drift your life away, why do we care ¶

¶ We'll just say hey ¶

¶ I will be there ¶

¶ And if we drift too close to the shore ¶

¶ We could go there ¶

¶ What for ¶

¶ Let's keep drifting ¶

¶ Yeah, let's keep drifting ¶

- Come on, I think we're ready.

- Okay, bye.

- I'll give you an extension cord.

-If she walked in the room right now,

what would you say to her?

- If she walked in the room right now?

It would be quite fun, I'm sure.

I'm sure she'd go hey, hey, and I'd give her a hug,

a long, long, long hug.

That's what I'd do, and it would be fun.

No doubt.

- That's a wrap!

- One, two, three, four.

¶ I don't have far to go now ¶

¶ But it certainly seems so ¶

¶ With you at the end of the line, dear ¶

¶ I really do wanna go ¶

¶ But this wind it keeps whippin' in on me ¶

¶ Yeah ¶

¶ The cold wind it keeps whippin' in on me ¶

¶ Oh, yeah ¶

¶ Sometimes my spirit's empty ¶

¶ And I need to fill it up ¶

¶ I know that there is plenty ¶

¶ But I never get enough ¶

¶ 'Cause this wind that keeps whippin' in on me ¶

¶ Ooh, ooh, ooh ¶

¶ The cold wind it keeps whippin' in on me ¶

¶ Oh yeah ¶

¶ Sometimes I try to attack it ¶

¶ Sometimes I try to attack it ¶

¶ Sometimes I try to attack it ¶

¶ It just blows me away ¶

¶ Sometimes I try to attract it ¶

¶ Sometimes I try to attract it ¶

¶ Sometimes I try to attract it ¶

¶ It just blows me down ¶

¶ 'Cause this wind it keeps whippin' in on me ¶

¶ Yeah ¶

¶ The cold wind it keeps whippin' in on me ¶

¶ Oh, yeah ¶

¶ It keeps whippin' ¶

¶ It keeps whippin' ¶

¶ It keeps whippin' in on me ¶

¶ It keeps whippin', whippin', whippin', whippin', whippin' ¶

¶ In on me ¶