All language subtitles for The Shamima Begum Story (2023)

This programme contains scenes which
some viewers may find upsetting

Downloaded from
YTS.MX

and some strong language

I'm curious about how you think
people perceive you.

Official YIFY movies site:
YTS.MX

As... As a danger, as a risk,
as a potential risk to them,

to their safety,
to their way of living.

Do you understand why society
has so much anger towards you?

Yes, I do understand, but I don't
think it's actually towards me.

I think it's towards Isis, but when
they think of Isis, they think of me

because I've been put on the media
so much, you know?

But they only did that
because you chose to go to Isis.

But what was there to obsess over?

We went to Isis, that was it,
it was over.

They just wanted to continue
the story because it was a story.

It was the big story.

But you do accept that you did join
a terrorist group?

Yes.

I did.

Three friends stride confidently
through Gatwick Airport,

heading to war-torn Syria.

Hundreds and hundreds
of Western Muslims

have been attracted
to this death cult.

Shamima has become a lightning rod
and a polarising figure.

I don't trust her.
I think she's dangerous.

I think she's radicalised.

Was she trafficked? Was she groomed?

When you throw your lot in with
the devil, don't expect the niceties

of what Western democracies
and Western justice stand for.

They were children.
They were manipulated.

We've probably let this child down
at some point.

Could Shamima Begum have been
prevented from reaching Isis?

There would have been
a possibility, yes.

They can't expect just
to come back to the UK

and be welcomed with open arms.

I think she shouldn't come back.
She's made her choice.

It's really complex.
She's really complex.

She was radicalised here.

It's our mess
and we should clear it up.

The runaway Isis bride has had
her British citizenship revoked.

If you did know what I knew,
you would have made

exactly the same decision.
Of that, I have no doubt.

I woke up early in the morning,
maybe five, six o'clock,

because, like, our flight left
at, like, 12:00,

so we just wanted to be there early.

Our bags were already somewhere
else - like, hidden somewhere else.

I had to make an excuse
as to why I was going,

so I was just like, "I have extra
classes that I need to go to,"

and my mum believed me.

I just stood there with her, you
know, just being quiet and stuff.

And then I got on the bus
and I said, "Bye,"

and she was being really quiet.

It's not normal for her
to be so quiet.

She was just staring at me
and not saying anything,

and I just said bye to her
and I got on the bus and I left.

And I feel really guilty, obviously,
not giving her a better goodbye,

knowing that I would probably
never see her again.

At the airport,
there's a photo of you

walking through
Yeah.

What's going through your head?

I felt like I was, like,
not inside my body.

It felt like a dream.

That was one of the scariest moments
of my life.

Just handing the passport over
to the man

and him just, like,
not even looking at it,

just gliding it past and handing it
back to me and telling me to go.

Did you think you were ever
coming back to Britain?

Really, at that time,
I just was not thinking.

My mind was, like, completely blank.

But I guess, yes, I thought,
this is the last time

I'm going to see the UK, you know?

Did that worry you?

I mean, in a way,
I felt kind of relieved.

Can you take me back
to 15-year-old Shamima

and life before Isis?

Whenever I describe, like, London
to people here, I just always

talk about my friends
because I feel like my friends

were a significant part of my life.

Kadiza and Amira I met
when I was 11,

and they were the fun part.
They were the happy memories.

Amira was quite outspoken.

She was in different clubs,
societies.

She was even on, like, posters
and stuff around the school.

Kadiza, really tall, and she was
quite beautiful, if I'm honest,

so she used to stand out
in that sense.

Shamima was a ghost.

She was quiet.

I mean, I could hear a pin drop
louder than her voice.

You know, she seemed like
she was in her own bubble.

We were all different, but weirdly,
we just fit together

like pieces of a puzzle, you know?

And then when we were 14, 15,
you know, we became religious.

Was the Shamima before that
not particularly religious, then?

Not at all.

Like, not at all.

What was the change?

Sharmeena became religious
after her mum died.

She was my closest friend.

She was someone that you can confide
in and she'll listen to you.

I mean, the way she was talking
about it, it was very persuasive,

but even if it wasn't persuasive,
I just wanted to go along with what

my friend wanted, you know,
so I could be accepted.

I didn't want to give them
a reason to, like, you know,

exclude me from the group.

I'm curious to know, like...

..about your sense of identity
at that time.

I didn't feel British or Bengali.

I didn't feel Bengali
because I didn't want to be Bengali

and I didn't feel British
because I feel like I wasn't able

to be British even though I wanted
to be, if that makes sense.

You want to be accepted by society
but I didn't feel like

I was accepted by society either,
because of racism and other things.

Obviously, I just wanted
to be a bit more free.

Being Bengali myself and being
a brown girl from the same area,

I can understand where she's
coming from in the sense that

she felt like culturally
she was different,

she was Muslim on top of that,

she came from a disadvantaged
background,

so in society you are sort of seen
as a black sheep.

You know, it doesn't take a genius
to just stand in an estate

in Tower Hamlets
and look around you.

And you would have kind of
grown up in kind of...

..semi-poverty, like, situation.

It's ironic because it is
set against the backdrop

of the City of London
and the district of Canary Wharf.

It does become a very hostile,
challenging environment

to grow up in.

It's really hard wanting
to integrate into society

but your family holding you back

because their idea of being British
is being loose and, like, immoral.

Cultural expectations on
a young woman would have been,

yes, you're going to school now,
but ultimately,

when you come of a certain age,
you have to get married.

And then, basically, that's pretty
much end of the line for you.

What was the Shamima like
for your parents?

Just, like, depressed and quiet
and obedient and just...

..not content with my life, and
in a way resentful to my family

for, like...
Like, I felt oppressed.

But that's an exaggeration.

At the time, because I was just
a teenager, I felt oppressed.

But, you know...

The Sunni extremist group Isis
has announced that it's establishing

an Islamic State,
known as a caliphate,

made up of territory that it seized
in Iraq and in Syria.

It's also proclaimed its leader,
Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi,

as the leader of all Muslims.

Iraqi government forces
are still battling...

When did you first become aware
of Isis?

When Sharmeena wanted to leave.

She sent me the news clip
of the caliphate being announced.

She explained what it was and
how we had an obligation to go

and, like, you won't be able to
practise your religion properly

in the UK and, you know, like,
the UK is racist and Islamophobic.

Why would you stay in a place
that doesn't even want you?

You know, things like that.

I mean, when she first said it,
it just sounded impossible.

I'm like,
"We're only 15. We can't go.

"It's..."

And then she said, "No, other
teenagers have already gone,

"so we can do it, too."

And what were your first impressions
when she's saying this?

This girl is crazy.

This girl, she's crazy.

She's lost her mind.
She's not there any more.

And then she just...
She was like, "OK, fine,

"I'll just leave by myself, then."
And then she did it.

And then she started contacting us
from within Isis

and describing, like, the situation
and how great it was,

and it just... It made it more real
and it made it more possible.

We just immediately
started planning.

I mean, Sharmeena already did it,
so she just told us

and there were obviously other
people online telling us

and, like, advising us on
what to do and what not to do.

What shifts someone
from sympathiser to traveller?

It was that the travellers
knew someone who had gone,

so the barrier to entry
becomes lower

if you know someone
who has travelled.

I think it's...

..very reasonable to suggest
that without Sharmeena,

Shamima does not go.

She's talking to her friend
who's saying, "This is fantastic.

"Here's how you do it.
I can arrange it for you.

"What are you waiting for?"

What did you think
you were going to?

Like, an Islamic utopia?
I don't know.

I'd only seen one small clip
of an Isis propaganda video,

which was the Eid video.

Families in the parks together.

The men saying, you know, come here,
come with your families, it's safe.

You know, you can live
a good Islamic life here,

you can build a family, you can be
happy, you can go to paradise.

For young people seeking
a sort of solution to, you know,

problems that they're facing, that
can suddenly become quite seductive.

Isis propaganda is well known
for the ultraviolence,

but only about 8% or 9% of Isis'
output was that ultraviolence.

Of course, that's the bit
that captures the headlines

and therefore it's what we all know
and associate with the movement,

but that's not the only part
of the picture

that she will have been offered.

As the media would like to tell you,

things are pretty chaotic here,

but what I've come
to see here is...

..there's actually a really good
medical service being provided here,

lots of hospitals.

This is where your sense
of identity and belonging

have their natural home and this is
where all these issues are resolved,

and Isis propaganda
was quite good at saying

this is a United Nations of Islam.

Whether you're Arab or not Arab,

black or white,
none of these things matter.

This is James Wright Foley,
an American citizen of your country.

As a government, you have been
at the forefront...

There was a lot of very critical
things of Isis

in the news at the time

and you must have had
some awareness of that.

How do you ignore that, or how do
you perceive that this is still

the right thing to do with all the
atrocities that they're committing?

To be honest, I did not know about
these atrocities because I...

As a 15-year-old,
I did not watch the news.

I got my news on social media
and, like, the people who I spoke to

on social media were saying, "No,
it's not true. It's an exaggeration.

"They're just trying to make Isis
look bad because they hate Islam."

President Obama has tonight
described the beheading

of the US journalist James Foley
by an extremist from Islamic State

as an act of violence that shocks
the conscience of the entire world.

The aid worker David Haines,
held for 18 months in Syria

before being murdered,

has been called a British hero
by the Prime Minister.

In the last hour, a video has
been posted on the internet

which appears to show the British
hostage Alan Henning being beheaded

by an Islamic State...

Do you get why people
will find it hard to believe

that you just didn't watch
Isis propaganda in London?

Yes, I understand why. Because they
weren't 15 and they weren't me.

They don't know my situation.

You know, maybe more people
have access to...

I mean, especially journalists,
they don't understand

why I wouldn't know,
because they're journalists,

they search the deepest,
darkest parts of the internet

for all these videos and they know
every single detail about Isis,

I mean,
these videos were on Twitter

and YouTube, so it didn't...
But they were constantly

being taken down and deleted, so it
was very hard to watch these videos.

And the people who I was talking
to who were in Isis

didn't send these videos...

..either.

Shamima Begum has claimed

that she didn't see the sort of
videos of people being executed

that were so widely publicised.
Do you think that's true?

Don't believe it and no reasonable
person would believe it.

However...

Erm, however much you're a teenager

watching At Home
With The Kardashians,

doing loads of stuff
on social media,

being physically welded
to your mobile phone,

nobody, particularly
three intelligent students

from East London, could have
been absolutely oblivious

to the horrors that were
being waged by Daesh

out in Syria and Iraq at that time.

It just doesn't wash.

The one time I did hear about an
execution was from a kid in school.

He came and said that Isis had
just burned a Jordanian pilot.

If I went online
and I asked Sharmeena,

"Hey, is this true?
Did they burn a pilot?

And she said, "No, it's a lie.

"What happened was, he was flying
over Isis territory

"and Isis shot him down.

"The plane crashed and caught
on fire and the video is of them

"dragging his body
out of the flames."

And she just said the media
just twisted it to make it look

like Isis had executed him.

And you believed her?

Yeah, because she was there.

And I wanted to be a part
of the Islamic State.

And I just... It's like when
you're in love and you just,

you don't want to see the person's
faults, so you just, like,

push them to the back of your head

or you just completely deny
that they are there.

You know, like I was in love
with the idea of Isis,

so I just always
made excuses for them.

Police have issued an
urgent appeal for help in finding

three schoolgirls from London who
are believed to be trying to join

jihadists fighting in Syria.

The three teenagers flew
to Turkey on Tuesday

without telling their families...

Police say three missing schoolgirls
believed to be heading for Syria

will be in grave danger
if they reach the country.

The teenagers, who are pupils
at Bethnal Green Academy

in East London, were last seen
boarding a flight to Turkey

on Tuesday.

When the girls leave,
at the beginning

they are seen as victims.

Our unease and or fear as a society
that Islamic State can reach out

from Syria into the minds of British
schoolgirls at their homes

and lure them away,
two of them aged 15, to a war zone,

that was frightening,
frightening on a number of levels.

So these are the images of the girls
that the police have released.

This is Salman calling
from the East London Mosque.

Is this to do with
the news that broke today?

It is.

So is that your sister?

One of the individuals? OK.

Is it possible for you to come
and visit me at the mosque?

For the first time when I spoke
to Shamima's sister on the phone,

she was... she was distraught.

She was crying. She was asking
for prayers and so on.

And that, that really broke me.

Just so that you're comfortable,

we've already had conversations
with the police, Inshallah,

and we're going to try and get them
to do as much as they can

to bring them back here.

And if you need anything, if you
need anything from us right... Eh?

We're going to make dua,
we're going to make dua.

Don't cry. Don't cry.
Please, don't cry.

We will do everything
that we can, yeah?

OK? Don't cry. All right.

I'll let you go now.

I think there was almost...

there was almost a feeling of loss
before we knew that we had lost.

And it was...
it was really hard to stomach.

While the world was looking for us,
we were just in the coach station.

Yeah.

We, like, changed our clothes.

We, like, dressed
a bit more Islamically.

We contacted the smuggler
who's going to help smuggle us

across the border,
and we just waited for him.

Then other families started to come
into the coach station

who also wanted to come to Isis,
and we sat there with them.

He finally came in
the middle of the night.

We had to buy food, obviously,
so the smuggler took us outside

to exchange money and to buy food,

and then he would, like, escort us
back to the coach station.

But he said we're not allowed
to go outside by ourselves.

So, we didn't.

How long are you sat
at this coach station for?

For, like, an entire day.

Just sitting and waiting
and sitting and waiting.

We finally get on to the coach
after, like, one day.

We were in the coach
for maybe half a day

until we finally got to Gaziantep.

Go, go for him. To this car.

Put your bags.

We all get separated and then
got into a bunch of cars,

kept switching cars.

Maybe seven times.

We were just doing everything
he was telling us to do

because he knew everything
and we didn't know anything.

So...

What's the message
that you're trying to get to her

if she does see this?

We love her and she's our baby.

If anybody is telling her that
they're going to love her more

than us, they're wrong. No...

Nobody in this world can
love her more than we do.

My little sister still sleeps
in the same bed as my mum.

And, it's just...

Sorry, give me a second.

We just want her to come home.

If you watch this, baby,
please come home.

Mum needs you more than anything
in the world.

You're our baby.

We just want you home.
We want you safe.

We crossed the border.

It was just a big field of nothing.

And there were, like, men wearing
all black with their faces covered,

with guns, like, on their arms.

And it was just a bit surreal,
you know, seeing it in person.

What are you thinking?

I mean, at that time, it was
Really?

It was kind of exciting, yeah.

It was different. It was...

You weren't thinking,
these men are dangerous?

These are potential terrorists?

No, I thought
they're here to protect me.

They have these guns to protect me
and to protect women like me

and to protect the Muslims.

So I did not think in my wildest
dreams that they would hurt me.

They take us into a room, they
search us, they search our bags,

they take our passports,
they take our phones.

And then they just tell us,
"OK, wait here until the bus comes

"for you guys to go to Raqqa."

The woman in charge of the bus,

you know, she liked us, I guess,
and she gave us a phone

and we just looked up...

It was the first time
I really sat down

and watched all the Isis videos,
and I was just in complete shock.

I was... I was just in shock.
I don't know what to say.

What's going through your head
when you're watching those?

I was just very disturbed,
but I just couldn't say anything.

And I would look at my friends'
faces to see if they're disturbed,

too, but their faces were
too neutral for me to...

..react. You know,
how I would want to react.

I mean, in that moment,
did you want to change your mind?

I just thought,
there's no turning back.

I've already done it. I might
as well see it through.

Did you ever think about
changing your mind at any point

along the journey?

No, not along the journey.

Not from the Syrian border. Yeah.

Anybody who saw
those gruesome videos

and wanted to remain in any way
associated with that organisation,

engenders very little sympathy
from most people.

This is joining up with people
who are against everything

we stand for and want to kill us.

That's as bad as it gets.

Three schoolgirls
who disappeared from East London

last week have made their way
into Syria.

It's feared that they're already
under the control

of the extremist group,
Islamic State.

I'll just explain...

I remember I read an article
about her

and her other two friends
that came.

I read on Daily Mail.

While you were in Raqqa?

They were all over the news.

Everyone knew about
the arrival in Raqqa

and everyone was talking about it.

They just sort of obviously think
that it's going to be really fun.

It's going to be some kind
of adventure,

but it's really not
running away to join the circus.

It's much more serious than that.

They could not believe in a million
years that three teenagers

would leave their good,
comfortable lives in the UK

and make it to Syria without being
caught by the government.

Like, they could not believe it.

Now, when they got on that
aeroplane, I don't know whether

they were terrorists or not,
but the likelihood is

that by now, or very soon,
they're going to be terrorists.

They brought us to
the madafa at night-time

and we reunited with Sharmeena.

And I was just so happy to see her.

She was at the top of the staircase
and we were at the bottom

of the staircase and we just, like,
screamed our girly screams

and just, like, ran up to each other
and hugged each other and cried.

And we were just so happy
to see each other

and everyone was happy to see us.

You know, it was,
it was a nice feeling, you know,

it felt like sisterhood.

All the negative feelings I had
for her about lying to me

kind of just, like, washed away.

I was just so happy to see her safe
and just there.

And we were just, like, all reunited
and, like, together again.

It was happy. It was a happy event.

With the three
schoolgirls beyond the reach

of their families and the police,
this has now become a blame game

on how they could have made it
to first Turkey and then Syria.

I wanted to try and find out
if there's any scraps

of any information
that would help us work out

if the girls were in contact
with anybody in Syria.

In Shamima's house,
we managed to discover a letter

from the Metropolitan Police -
it was addressed to the parents

of these girls, requesting
their permission to question

the girls officially around
the disappearance of Sharmeena.

But it was clearly handed
to the girls themselves

to give to their families.

And none of the families
had seen it.

So, just so I'm getting this right,

before the three girls
from Bethnal Green leave,

there's an active investigation
into one of their friends

who's already gone to join Isis?
That's correct, yes.

And nobody outside of the school,

in terms of families or anything
like that, is aware of this?

No-one else is aware of this.

It was absolutely ludicrous.

What the families were uncovering
was that the police knew a lot more

about these girls' liaison

with people who were grooming them,
who were radicalising them

and hadn't shared that information
with the families.

Could I call the committee to order?

This is a session...

The families
are furious about a letter

from the police which might have
alerted them the girls were about

to flee the country, a letter
which they say they never saw.

This afternoon their families
appeared before MPs complaining

that when a classmate ran off
to Syria in December,

nobody told them.

Ms Begum, you are
the older sister of Shamima.

Would it have been better if
the police had handed the letter

directly to yourselves?

If we'd received the letter,
we would have contacted

the police, found out
where has this first girl gone,

if they gave us that information,

and I would have spoken
to my sister.

Thank you very much. I'm sorry,
we're running a tiny bit late.

We're most grateful.

The family want
an apology because they think

things could have been handled
much better.

What would you like to say
about that, Commissioner?

Well, first of all, we're sorry
if the family feel like that.

Clearly, it's a terrible situation
they find themselves in.

I'm also sorry that the letter
that we intended to get to them

didn't get through,
because clearly that failed.

It was intended for them
and it failed

and for that, of course,
we're sorry.

I don't think we would go
as far as saying,

therefore, that caused
the girls to go.

Can you just tell me how
you felt seeing that letter?

It made me and my friends
feel like we need to

move faster, you know?

Before we get in trouble.

These three girls were not
the first girls at that school

to be radicalised and, in fact,
go to Syria.

So, one girl was already there.

Another girl was actually taken off
a plane in an attempt to go there.

Presumably, though, if one girl
goes, if the police are running

an investigation, it's probably not
pertinent for them to share

information because it might
interfere with their investigation.

Well, it depends
on what your priorities are.

Is your priorities about gathering
intelligence about these girls,

or is your priorities
about safeguarding?

But I know that they were
more interested

in gathering intelligence.

I was shocked to see
how young the three girls were.

And so, following
those developments

is something that I did do.

And you were in the intelligence
community at that time?

I was, yes.

Just want to talk to you a little
bit about Mohammed Rasheed.

This is a man that moved
Shamima Begum to Syria.

We've got a dossier of hundreds
of pages of information

that was gathered by law enforcement
and intelligence.

It shows that Mohammed Rasheed
was gathering information

on everyone he helped.

I forget to give you the passport.

Copies of their ID documents,
flight tickets,

passports, and that Rasheed
was even entering into Syria

and documenting the location
of Isis fighters.

It also shows a confession by him
that he provided Shamima's

ID documents to
Canadian intelligence.

Do you know if Mohammed Rasheed
was a Canadian asset?

I do not.

But if you did know, you wouldn't
be able to tell me, would you?

No, I would not be able to tell you.

A very senior serving intelligence
officer at an agency

has confirmed to us that
Mohammed Rasheed was indeed

providing information
to the Canadians.

How do you feel about that,
hearing that?

If indeed he was working on behalf
of an intelligence agency,

the activities that he was
conducting are essential

to intelligence collection.

And so, you know,
that, I don't have issue with.

But there is a line that I feel
was crossed in this operation

that has, you know,
risked the lives of minors.

And that's a line that should
really not be crossed.

And so, this would be an operation
that has gone wrong.

Do you think there's a possibility
that Shamima Begum

could have been prevented
Yes, there is.

There would have been a possibility
and a way to prevent that.

Once we started to get settled
into the madafa and I saw

the situation and I saw the way
women were talking about, you know,

Islam and, like, the things
that Isis were doing

and how they think it's so great,
it started to make me realise

that this is really real
and it's kind of scary.

There was maybe 100 women
and there were, like,

probably more than 100 children.

It was so packed
and it wasn't clean.

It was so horrible.

I was so desperate to get out.

I couldn't, I couldn't do it.
I couldn't do it.

How do you get out of the madafa?

The only way is to get married.

There's no other way.
You have to get married.

It almost felt like prostitution,
really, in a way.

Like, I had to give my body away
for my freedom.

Kadiza married
a Somali-American man.

He worked in the hospital.

And Amira married an Australian.

I deliver this message to you,
the people of Britain.

We will defeat you.

First you say, you know,
"I want to get married."

And then they take down
your information and they ask you

what your preference is for what
type of man you want to marry,

like age and nationality
and language.

And, I mean, if you want
to be more detailed,

you can even like say what
you want them to look like.

And they would just, like...

..get a list of the men,
because the men have also

given their information, and just
kind of, like, pair you up.

Well, my friend came to me.

Said there's a girl,
she's interested in getting married.

Are you interested?

I said, "Yeah, I guess
I'm interested. Yeah."

So we sat down.

We had a meeting, me and Shamima.

I was really shy. So he just, like,
introduced himself

and then I introduced myself.

And then he was like,
"You want to ask me questions?"

And I had, like, a list
of questions I wanted to ask him.

She wanted to be allowed
to visit her friends,

live close to the market.

Some things like this.

I said, "Yeah, no problem."

What did you want from him?

Like, as a husband?

Just... Just a partner in life.

To be my friend, to be my companion,
to love, to love me.

I wanted to be loved
because I felt like I was not loved.

So I just wanted someone, you know,
to be there for me always

and to protect me and love me.

I just wanted a partner
so I can get out and

find some rest with.

Spend my days in Syria, somebody to
take a bit of care of me, you know.

I asked her if she knew how to cook.

She said, "Yes, I know how to cook."

I said, "OK."

Why was that important to you?

Because... Because I need to eat.

And I like nice food.

It was kind of exciting for me

because I'd never been
in a relationship, so...

And I was... My entire life,
I'm just surrounded by women.

So it was kind of a new concept,
being with a man, for me.

It was a little scary as well
because I was like, this is the man

I'm going to have to
spend my life with,

for however long he's alive
or however long I'm alive.

So it was just
a little scary, yeah.

We don't have such a thing as
dating, going out, having...

having a meal together.

You get to know each other,
like, a little bit.

If you click...

..then you decide to take the step.

We want to get married,
and that's it. We got married.

Then he took me to the park.

That was really weird,
like, for the first time,

like, seeing the park, you know,
the famous park

the Eid video was done in.

We sat down and we just
started talking more.

I got more comfortable with him,
obviously, when it was just

more one-on-one time
and it was more chill and stuff.

I want to say good things
about him because there obviously

were good things about him.
He was very protective of me.

He did take care of me, you know.

He was funny. He was really funny,
I'm not going to lie.

He used to make me laugh.

There was this small, like,
theme park I took her to once.

We had a nice time.

Ferris wheel, it was a very small
ferris wheel, old.

Took a ride in it.

I was just happy to be out the
madafa and just breathing fresh air

and being outside.

What are you learning about Shamima?

She is... She was very young
when she came.

She didn't have a lot
of life experiences,

not a lot of person to get to know.

Most of her life experience
and what makes her who she is today

is the life experience that she got
in the Islamic State.

But when I got to know her,
she was basically an...

..empty paper.

And what did you learn
about your husband?

Because he'd been in Isis a lot
Yeah.

I don't want to say.

Because as I understand it,
he was an Isis fighter.

I guess, yeah.

Before I was married to him,
he was, yeah.

How did you feel knowing
that he was a fighter?

I mean, I thought he was doing
the right thing.

So I just thought, you know,
he was fighting for his religion

and for the State.

She had got a little bit
of understanding

about how the marriage life works.

So that helped her out a lot.

What were those sort of values
that she'd come to understand?

Er, respecting of the husband.

Trying to please the husband.

Obedience, of course.

To the husband.
Yes.

So you expected Shamima
Yes.

What does obedience look like
to a husband?

When I ask her to do something
and she does it, it's not very hard.

What if she doesn't want to do it?

If she has a valid excuse,
she doesn't have to do it.

It's an interesting way
of phrasing it - a valid excuse,

because that doesn't seem
like there's much choice

in that dynamic
between the two of you.

No, there is not, actually. No.

No.

So what you want, she has to do?
Basically, yeah.

It doesn't seem,
from where I'm standing,

that that's a particularly healthy
place for somebody to be.

It doesn't seem like two people
are equal in that relationship.

We're not.

But she chose for that
and she's happy with it.

She's very happy with it
and I'm happy with it, so...

When you say she's not equal
to you in that relationship...

In terms of, I am the one in charge,
basically, yeah.

So you're around 21 and Shamima
would have been how old?

She was about 15 at that time.

So you decided to marry a child?

She was underage, yeah.

I wouldn't consider her a child now,
but she was underage, yeah.

You might not agree with it, but
that doesn't mean it's not right.

First I had to get a house.

I wasn't very successful.

So my friend, he was...
he was nice enough

to give me a room in his house.

He was a married man from Egypt.

And that was our new home.

Did you feel positive
about the relationship?

I mean, at first, yes.

He was obviously very nice
to me at the beginning,

so it was OK.

And then what happened?

And then he just comes home
one day and he's like,

"I have to go to prison."

And I was like,
I'm like, "What do you mean?"

And he was like,

"It's OK. I think it will just be
for, like, a couple of days."

Why did he go to prison?

Because they thought he was a spy.

How long were you together before
Ten days.

And he asked the man and the woman
in the house if they could

take care of me, if I could stay.

And they said, "Of course,
she can stay as long as she needs."

She refers to an Egyptian
with whom she stayed

in northern Syria.
Now, who is that Egyptian?

She was very opaque
with me about it.

It was one of the subjects
she didn't want to go into

and kind of skipped around,
which drew my attention to it.

If I was a cop, I'd be wanting
to know, who is this Egyptian?

What was his influence on her?
That's important.

You said that you and your husband
stayed with an Egyptian family.

Do you remember any of their names
or anything like that?

No.

And what were their names?

Their kunyas were Umm Qomra
and Abu Qomra, that's it.

Yeah.

And you don't know
No.

But you don't remember
his actual name?

His non-kunya.

Think it was like Saeed
Yeah.

I heard his wife say a few times
and then him answer,

So that must be his name.
Yeah.

What was his personality like?

He was really nice. He was, yeah,
he was really nice to me.

He was like a father figure
Yeah.

No.

You never heard anything, any sort
of Arabic or descriptive term

No.

What's the significance
of this man potentially being

an armourer for Isis?

Well, it would mean that he played
a significant role

on behalf of Isis,
providing weapons.

Why might Shamima change
her story or potentially conceal

information from me?

There's fear. There's trauma.

Disassociation in itself
could mean that people

would see her as a threat
simply by that association.

There are also consequences
in terms of, you know,

what she's able to freely say,
knowing that, you know,

any information
can also incriminate her.

So we've been told that
he was arming Isis members.

No.

How do you feel about the idea
that you were living with somebody

that was providing weapons
to Isis members?

I don't... I don't know...

I don't know. I mean, I don't
believe that personally.

And secondly, I don't know how
to even respond to that answer.

What was it like being in Raqqa?

It almost felt like a movie,
like I was in a movie.

Seeing the roundabout
with all the, like, restaurants.

It was a lot to take in.

It was kind of like what I imagined,
kind of not like what I imagined.

Seeing how everything
was functioning and stuff,

like it was normal life.

Did it feel very different
to Bethnal Green?

Yeah, it did. Yeah, a lot.

I mean, firstly,
there were guns.

There were a lot of guns.

And secondly,

it just felt more restrictive
walking around.

Like, when you go outside, you
can't, like, lift up the first layer

of your veil that just shows
your eyes.

You can't do that even though
it's hard to, like,

walk in the street, you know.

If you do, even for one second,
like, a guy from across the street

will, like, yell at you.

It's sort of well known
that in Raqqa,

people would hold public executions.

No.

I mean, people might find it hard
to believe that you didn't.

Well, I mean, I didn't go outside
a lot because my husband

did not let me go out a lot.

And while he was in prison,
the man I was staying with

also did not let me go out a lot,
so...

How long was he in prison for?
Seven months.

What were you doing for seven
Sitting in that room.

Sitting in that...that room.

Just doing nothing.

Shamima Begum's told me
that she rarely left

the home in Raqqa.

Do you think that's plausible?

When you look at this type
of ideology,

the woman's place
is really in the home.

You know, they wanted to grow
the caliphate

and you can't do that
without women.

So, predominantly, their role
was to marry fighters

and breed children who they
can train and radicalise

and be of the same ideology.

Did you question your decision yet?

Or did you still think you'd made
the right choice?

I mean, I always,
in the back of my mind,

was, like, questioning my decision.

But I just, I knew there was nothing
I could do about it.

So I just had to keep, like,
persevering and going on, you know,

trying to live this new life
that I decided to be a part of.

There's Shamima's narrative,
which is essentially

she was just a housewife,
she stayed at home most of the time,

she got married fast.

Then there is the narrative
that in fact

she was an active member
of the terror group.

Shamima Begum does have some
very big questions to answer.

There have been a number
of allegations made against you

in the media over the years,

Mm-hm.

One such allegation is, did you ever
help prepare suicide vests?

Not at all.

Did you ever try to recruit people
or encourage them to join Isis?

No.

Never.

Did you communicate
with friends back in London

I don't
want to answer that question.

Did you receive
any form of training?

Were you given any of that?

No, not at all.

Was Shamima part of Hisbah?

Were you ever a member of Hisbah,
No.

So there's a woman in Hisbah
who says she saw you

receiving some training.

No?

When I first came,
when I first crossed the border?

At any point during
your time in Isis.

I mean, I'd like
to specifically know when

so I can say
what I was doing instead.

Well, OK, let me rephrase it.

Any time during your life in Isis,
were you given any form

of either religious training
or weapons training?

No.

Do you feel...

..that it is fair to prosecute you
for being a member of Isis?

You don't feel it's fair
to prosecute you

No.
Why not?

Because being a member of Isis...

..is defined as, you know, doing
their bidding, working for them.

And I just did none of that.

If anything, I was about
a non-Isis.

Mm-hm.

You were a member of that group.

That group was committing genocide
and committing crimes.

You are part of a group
that's doing those things

and as a result of that,
you share some responsibility

for that group's actions.

I understand what you're trying
to say, but really, I'm...

I'm not going to take responsibility
for other people's actions.

It would have happened regardless
of whether I was there or not.

I think one of the biggest struggles
you're going to have

is because you...

..don't seem to associate
your presence within Isis,

supporting the group.

There is...an accountability
that needs to be had

for your membership of that group.
Do you agree with that?

If I go to court and a judge says
that I have to go to prison

for a certain amount of time
for this, then, yes, I will go.

But you... Of course you would,
because the judge has made

the decision, that's different
towards what you feel.

And what I'm just trying
to understand is...

..if you truly understand
that you being part of this group

in some way helped them
and was an act of support

Mm-hm.

Do you agree with that?

I understand what you're trying
to say and I would take

responsibility for it.
Yeah.

And you understand that that group
committed acts like genocide?

Yeah, I do understand that.

So when you reflect upon that,
how do you feel about your decision

to be a member of that group?

Ashamed of myself
for being so stupid,

for falling for something like this.

Just...

..a lot of regret.

What happens on the day
you were released?

Can you take me through that day?

It was a shock.

I thought I was a dead man walking.

All of a sudden,
I get put into a van

and I get dropped off somewhere
in the middle of Raqqa.

But of course, I was happy.

I was euphoric.

There was a knock at the door
and I just, like, opened the door

and my husband came in and we just
stared at each other.

And then we didn't say anything.
We just hugged each other.

Gave me a very, very,
very strong hug.

She was very happy
to see me as well.

It was a very, very
nice moment, yeah.

Were you surprised?

Yeah, I was really surprised.

I was surprised and happy,
though, that he was out

and that he was not a spy.

We got an apartment of our own.

And I got to spend some time
with her.

I got to know her.

He was a very different person

then when he...
when I first married him.

He was just, like,
very quiet and reserved and, yeah,

just didn't show
his emotions much.

You know, it was hard for him
to stay in Isis

after everything
that they'd done to him.

He didn't want to continue
being there.

He didn't want to fight for them.

Do you remember the moment
that you became disillusioned?

Yeah.

After I got out of prison.

It's like, "What the heck is this?
What did I come to?"

He had no friends because
he found out that all his friends

were talking about him
while he was in prison.

So he just cut them all off.

And I felt like I didn't want
to see my friends, you know,

because they would just talk
about how great Isis is

and I just didn't want
to hear any of it.

So I was just at home
with my husband.

And that was hard. You know,
you start to lose your mind

when you're just only stuck
with each other.

How was his behaviour
towards you in that period?

Just taking out his anger
and frustration on me.

Because of the situation he was in.

Was that abusive?

Yeah.

No.

And why?

Because just...
it was just too hard.

What would have happened
if you'd been caught?

Probably put in prison and tortured,

because they would assume that
I'm a spy for wanting to leave.

If they could do it to my husband,

then they could maybe do it
to me too, you know.

Hi. You OK?

How are you?

What? You feel scared?

Why do you feel scared?

I know what you mean.

I understand what you mean.

And it is, you know,
where you're from, where you are,

I can understand.

I learned that Kadiza wanted
to come back from her auntie.

She was crying,

saying that she was on her own
and she wanted to come home.

Erm...

We'd been working with another
family to get their daughter back

from Syria, unconnected to this,
and we'd already formulated a plan.

So it was fortuitous.

A lot of people trying to get
out of Isis by this stage

and Isis were desperate to stop
people getting out

and they were executing them.

There was a point where Kadiza
seemed to want to leave Isis.

Did you know she wanted to leave?
I did not know.

This was the time where
their husbands had died

and my husband had just
come out of prison.

So I was with my husband mostly

and my friends were living together
in their own house.

So all of this was going on
without my knowledge.

I understand that
you're feeling scared, yeah.

I don't trust your friends,
you know, by the way.

I mean, she's a young woman and

she was in the impossible situation
of trying to assess

whether staying where she was
more lethal or less lethal

than trying to escape,
which, of course, is lethal.

But, you know, these are the choices
that war presents you.

I kind of just look forward
for the next call,

and that's what keeps me going.

The night I heard the bomb,
I didn't know at that time, like,

how much it would affect me.

The next morning, Amira and
Sharmeena, they came to tell me

that Kadiza had been killed.

And then we were told we had to go
to the hospital

and just to identify a body.

So we went and
we identified her body.

That was one of the lowest
points in my life, I guess.

Seeing her body like that,
you know.

With her, it's just like...

..a constant reminder, you know,
that she could be alive today,

but she's not.

And in a way, it might, it may be
my fault, because if I had said,

you know, "I don't want to go
to Isis. Guys, don't come either."

Or if I told the police the truth,
maybe she would still be alive.

You know, maybe we would
have never gone to Syria.

Maybe they would have never spoken
to me again because they would see

me as a snitch,
but they'd still be alive.

And that would be enough for me.

Yeah.

But they made their own
decisions, didn't they?

They did. But I feel like
I could have stopped it.

It's just how I feel.

Is it hard to carry that around?
It is.

And if I ever do go back to the UK,

having to face their families
is going to be really hard.

When I was pregnant with
my daughter, maybe seven months,

the bombing started to get really
bad and my husband looked at

the situation and he said,

"Raqqa is going to fall and I don't
want to be here when that happens."

The situation looked very unstable.

I didn't want to be there
for the fight.

But he also did not want me
to be there in my condition,

because I was pregnant. I felt like
I would not have been able

to survive Isis without him.

Even though there were hard times,

I thought, I told myself
that it's worth it

because if I did not have him,
I would lose my fucking mind.

So I told her, "We're going
to have to move soon."

She says, "OK, we'll move."

So we pack our bags

and we went to Deir ez-Zor.

I was at the end of my, at the end
of my pregnancy, you know.

I gave birth.

It was just by myself, you know,
taking care of my daughter

with my husband. Didn't know much.

There was nothing more beautiful
to me than my daughter.

So it wasn't easy,
but still, you know,

that was the family element
and I did get to enjoy, you know.

It was really scary because I didn't
know anything about being a mum.

I barely knew anything about
being an adult, let alone a mum.

But obviously, after I gave birth
to my daughter,

the bombing scared me a lot more.

They made me realise that I'm not
just responsible for myself.

I'm responsible for
another human being

that completely depends on me,
and I took that very seriously.

And it was...
it was a really big burden on me.

And then right after I gave birth,
I got pregnant again.

So I gave birth to my son,
like, 11 months later.

Did you worry about bringing kids
into that environment?

I didn't think
it was going to end like that.

Didn't think it was going
to be that bad.

There wasn't anything
in the shops to buy any more,

like milk and diapers for kids
and food.

And, like, everything
became more expensive.

What happened to the children?

When you make wheat, when you make
flour, there is a waste product.

Like the shells that they give to,
I think, cows and stuff.

That's what we was making,
like, a sort of soup of, I guess.

And there was some green stuff
growing outside.

That's what we was eating
for maybe months on end.

So first of all, my son,
he passed away because

she didn't have breast milk.

And he couldn't eat.

Afterwards...

..my daughter, she...

..got really, really skinny

and at one point she couldn't
stand up by herself any more and...

At one point I came home and I heard
that she had stopped breathing

and they brought her
to the hospital.

She was my world. She was my reason
for living through everything,

through Isis
and through my husband's abuse.

You know, she just kept me going,
you know.

I always... I was living for her,
you know.

I wasn't living
for anyone else but her.

So when she died, it was like
my entire world just

collapsed around me, you know?

But the only reason I didn't
kill myself was obviously

because I was pregnant
with my second son.

But if I had not been pregnant,
I would have taken my life.

Pounded by artillery,

the last vestiges of the first
modern-day caliphate are crumbling.

The supposed utopia becoming
a mass of death and rubble.

I knew and everyone else knew
that there was nowhere else to run.

This was the last place, you know.
There's no plan B.

I was really depressed.
I didn't want to get up any more.

I didn't want to get up and run
from the bombs and the fighting.

I just wanted to, like,
just lie down and die.

But my husband kept pushing me
to, like, get up and go.

We walked out together with a group
of Syrians and Iraqis.

From sun, sunrise to sunset
we were walking

and I was heavily pregnant
at that time.

So that was hard as well and I was
severely malnourished as well.

We didn't know
where we were walking.

We were just following the person
at the front until we finally, like,

met these soldiers.

We spent a night in the desert.

After this we got separated.

I got taken to prison,
my wife got taken to the camps.

And that's the last
I've heard of her.

Would you want to reunite
with Shamima?

Yeah, of course. She's my wife.

How can I live without her?

No.

Why not?

Bec... You know, I just stayed
married to him in Isis

because I... to survive.

But out in the real world,
I wouldn't need him

and I wouldn't tolerate his crap,
because I don't need him.

But you did love him
for a while, right?

I don't want to answer
that question.

Thousands of women and children
were coming out of Baghuz

and they were being bussed
up to Al-Hol Camp.

Lots of wire, lots of tents,
pretty ragged tents.

Kids, you know, pretty thin kids
running around

through the kind of mud and dust.

All these women all still dressed
in black, in full niqab.

These thin, quite undernourished
women who have been through it

in a camp at the edge of a desert.

I just remember sitting
in the administration block

and chasing this conversation
on for a long time,

kind of in circles, with this
administrator from the camp.

"I'd really like to speak to some
of the British women

"who might have turned up here
from Baghuz."

He then reappears with
two women who are fully covered.

And so I say, you know, "Obviously
I want to speak to you."

And she said something back to me
in a London accent.

And I'm like, "Wait, hang on, wait.
You're from London."

And she's like,
"Yeah, I'm a sister from London.

"I'm a Bethnal Green girl."

She said,
"I'm a Bethnal Green girl?"

"I'm a Bethnal Green girl.

"I'm a sister from London.
I'm a Bethnal Green girl."

So the first thought
that went through my head was,

right, OK, I need to take control
of this environment now.

This is important.

This isn't a conversation
with someone who's just come

out of Baghuz. This is
Shamima Begum, this is a Bethnal...

one of the missing
Bethnal Green girls.

And it was quite easy

between us, speaking.

It was immediately like,

"OK, you are straight out of Islamic
State, straight out of Baghuz,

"but you're also a London girl."

And we could kind of have this
slightly bipolar conversation.

Then you lived together in Raqqa
or somewhere else?

What was that like?

Was that an experience which
fulfilled your aspirations

of what it was...?

Did you ever see executions?

In the bins?

What was that like
when you first saw that?

These are the heads
of captives?

Being unfazed
doesn't interest me so much.

What interests me far more is
the logic around how that guy

had had his head cut off.

I said, "Who was he?
A captive or what?"

And she said, "Yeah, he was captive.
He was seized on the battlefield."

So I'm like, "Well, didn't it bother
you that he ended up beheaded?"

And she's, "No. Just think what he
would have done to a Muslim woman."

This is immediate radicalised logic.

She is speaking like that because,
as I would exactly expect her

to speak, she's been with
Islamic State for four years.

And that's how you speak,
that's how you think.

When is your baby due?

Why do you think
she walked out of Baghuz?

She wanted to save her baby's life,
more than her own.

Some women wouldn't have wanted
to come back to save the life

of their unborn child.
They would have said,

"It's the will of God.
I live in the land of caliphate.

"If Allah wants
the life of my child,

"then he'll take it."

You don't automatically assume
that a woman is going to say,

"I need to go home because I want
the NHS to save the life

"of my unborn child."

Just before I left, I said,
"Can I take a photo?"

And so she sat down
and I just took five frames.

Straight to The Times.
"Bring me home."

In one way,
she's back from the dead.

She said she had no regrets
about going.

But now, nine months pregnant,
she wants to return home.

I don't know that Britain

wants people like that
back in this country.

Is she still filled with hatred
for this country?

If we do have a no-deal Brexit,

do you want to come back to the UK?

I mean, this is a woman
who marries an Isis terrorist

and is, for all intents
and purposes,

herself an Isis terrorist,
isn't she?

She's 19 years old, she's an adult.
We don't want her back.

You wouldn't have her back, then?
No, no. Definitely not.

She should be done for treason.
Yes.

And she's a risk for this country.

She should stay where she is.
I'm telling you, she's a traitor.

Everybody had
an opinion about Shamima Begum.

Every pundit was out there
writing something on TV

saying this, that and the other.

You know, some people in the media
was just saying,

let her die in the desert. I mean,
this is the mainstream media.

This wasn't just on
social media platforms.

After that interview, you know,
I gave birth.

And while I was in the delivery room
recovering from giving birth,

you know, there was a knock on
the door and there were journalists

who wanted to speak to me.

You know, it's just
a whole other thing.

Underneath her black abaya dress,

she cradles her two-day-old son.

Shamima Begum stuck with
the extremists

until the very last moment.

But now she wants forgiveness.

So here's your opportunity, then,
to apologise to some of the people

who were murdered by
the group that you joined.

Some of the British men, some
of the women, some of the kids

from Manchester who were killed
in the Manchester Arena.

You must have heard
about that attack.

What did you think about that?

I was shocked, but...

But?

I just couldn't...

I didn't know about the kids,
actually, but... Don't know.

I do feel that is wrong, that, like,
innocent people did get killed.

It's a two-way thing, really.

Because women and children are being
killed back in the Islamic State

right now.

And it's kind of retaliation.

Like, their justification
was that it was retaliation.

So I thought, OK,
that is a fair justification.

Do you regret saying these things?

Of course I regret saying it,
you know.

What would you say to survivors
of that attack?

I'm so sorry that you went
through this.

And I know I supported it.

And if I could, I would

spend the rest of my life trying
to persuade people not to do things

like this who may fall into
things like this.

How are you feeling?

I just gave birth,
so I'm really tired. Yeah.

And can you tell me a bit
about the child?

Yeah.

I felt very used by the journalists.

I felt like they did not care
about my mental health

and where my mind was at that time.

Could you describe for us
what it has been like

to live with and under
Islamic State?

You know, at first it was nice.

It was like how they, you know,
sold it...

I felt, like, an obligation
to say the things I did

because of the women in the camps,
you know,

who still had these radical
ideologies, who still loved Isis,

you know, and who considered anyone
who spoke bad about Isis

as non-Muslims.

And so, someone they could kill
if they wanted to.

Shamima. Hello.

Take a seat.

Until our conversation this morning,

Shamima Begum had assumed
she was coming back to Britain.

Have you heard anything
new about your case?

No.

I only get information about my case
every time a journalist comes to me.

What was the last information
that you'd heard?

That not everyone wants me
to come back

and it might take a bit
of time for me to

come back.

They got this in the post.

But I'd come here with a copy
of the letter

sent to her parents yesterday,

stripping her of
British citizenship.

Please find enclosed
papers that relate to a decision

taken by the Home Secretary
to deprive your daughter,

Shamima Begum,
of her British citizenship.

In light of the circumstances
of your daughter, the notice

of the Home Secretary's decision
has been served on file today,

19th February, and the order
removing her citizenship

has subsequently been made.

OK, then.

What do you think?

I don't know what to say.

I don't know why my case
is any different...

..to other people.

Was it just because I was
on the news four years ago?

I feel like it's a bit unjust
on me and my son.

Yeah.

But you've done this to your son.

I mean, this is a consequence
of your actions.

Well...

I don't know what to say.

I don't know what to say.

She seemed dazed, shocked,

but in control.

Except she's not.

What did you feel
when you found that out?

Just hopeless and depressed and...

For the British government
to just completely renounce

any responsibility over me, it was,
I felt like, you know...

..like I had nowhere else to go and
my son also had nowhere else to go.

Like I had...

I just had no hope
of living any more.

And I, you know,
feared for my son and his life.

I absolutely understand
the Home Secretary's move,

which has been upheld
in our legal system,

that she should be stripped
of British citizenship.

There has to be a consequence
when you go and join an organisation

which is effectively dedicated
to destroying Britain

and all it stands for
and all its citizens,

for whom all of us are fair game.

After all the media attention,
I was brought to this camp.

And then just one morning I woke up
and he was really pale

and his lips were blue
and he was struggling to breathe.

I went to the clinic and I said,

"Please, my son is, like,
close to death.

"I don't know what's wrong with him.

"Please take him to
the hospital outside."

And after, like, a lot of begging
and arguing, you know,

they took me outside.

So we went to the big hospital,
you know, and...

..they just put an IV in him
and put me in a room with him alone,

away from everyone else,
and just left me there, you know,

with the soldier standing
outside the door, you know,

while he was still
struggling to breathe.

He passed away maybe
in the middle of the night.

Just, you know, I just was
completely numb and emotionless.

I was like,
"I think my son is dead."

So she called the doctor
and he tried to resuscitate him

and it didn't work.

So they just left me in the room
and I had to stay there all night

with his body because
I couldn't be taken to the camp

in the middle of the night.

I had to wait until morning
to take him to get buried.

The baby son
of the teenager, Shamima Begum,

who has been stripped
of her UK citizenship

for joining the Islamic State group,
has died in Syria.

Shamima Begum's newborn baby
has been buried in Syria

after dying of pneumonia.

The teenager who left London
to join the Islamic State group...

The son of Shamima Begum,
the teenager who left the UK

to join the so-called Islamic State,

has died in a detention camp
in Syria.

The 19-year-old gave birth
last month.

The Home Secretary, Sajid Javid,

stripped her of
her British citizenship....

Oh, my God. Now this.

Yeah. Young woman, three kids dead,
like, six month period.

Citizenship removed, you know,
smashed to pieces,

national hate figure.

That wasn't a great moment.

Can you tell me how many times
you were pregnant?

Five times.

You were pregnant five times?
Yeah.

Yeah.

How do you feel now when you think
back to your children?

I feel I could have done
more to save them.

You know, like,
got them out of this life.

In a way, I feel guilty for even
bringing them into this world,

this horrible world, you know?

I'm curious, because we first
started talking, believe it or not,

almost a year ago now.

What's changed since then?

Erm... Nothing. I don't know.

My, you know, my situation
legally is still the same.

I'm still... I still don't
have citizenship.

At least with prison sentences,

you know that
there will be an end.

But here you don't know
if there's going to be an end.

What do you think you'll be doing
in seven years' time from now?

Yeah.

You don't think you'll be home?
Nope.

Nope.

Why not?

Because Isis was the worst thing
of the 21st century,

and I was a part of it.

And now I have to face
the consequences of my actions.

And this camp
is the consequences of my actions.

..Where they
supported my decision unanimously,

and I think it's pretty clear cut.

Do you think it's kind of once
a terrorist, always a terrorist?

Or, I mean, is she basically
forever going to be stateless?

Do you think that
that's what she deserves?

I am clear that the decision
is both morally right,

absolutely right,
but also is legally correct.

And it is the right one
to protect the British people.

Shamima Begum has become
the avenue by which people

are discussing Isis detainees.

And there's a lot of confusion.

What do we do next?

All of these Isis people
are in detention now.

And what happens if you leave
all these people out there?

The deprivation of citizenship,
the leaving them over there,

that's all easy enough.

But actually, that in
of itself isn't a solution.

This is a tinderbox that will ignite
again at any moment.

And suddenly we're going
to get sucked back in.

There's part of me that says
if she is a threat

and she does need to be punished
for what she's done,

then I'd rather she faced British
justice, in which I have confidence.

The alternative being
that she's in some

semi-secure camp, could escape,

could be released,
could be liberated,

and if she is still a threat,
could therefore still pose a threat

from another part of the world.

And that's the practical debate
we need to have

and decide where we are safest,
not where she is safest.

You can see she was groomed
and manipulated,

so she should be able to come back.

But then on the other side,
you think, if she does come back,

would other people who have the same
toxic ideas that she had

think it's OK to do what she did?

Shamima bears prime responsibility
for her own situation.

But even if she is guilty
of a terrorist act

or of terrorist involvement,

she is still a child of our society
and she is our responsibility.

Do you regret joining Isis?

Of course. I will regret it
for the rest of my life.

Whether you can see it on my face
or not, it kills me inside.

What would you say
to your 15-year-old self now?

Don't do it, bitch.
Just don't do it.

Really?
Yeah, that's all I would say.

She wouldn't believe me anyway.

Like, she wouldn't have
listened to me.

She'd have still decided to go?
Probably, yeah.

She was too arrogant at that time.