Original subtitles

getting the right saddle height is the

Holy Grail for cyclists we know how

important it is for Comfort on the bike

and for injury prevention and also to

get the most power and efficiency out of

our legs but is there a perfect saddle

height and if there is how do we find it

I am on my way to meet a man who is

exceedingly well qualified to answer

Phil Burt is a leading Authority in bike

fares and he comes at it with a

background as a physiotherapist he works

with the British cycling team through

their Glory years and the early days of

Team sky as well my own saddle height

has been basically the same for the last

20 years but can it be improved and what

differences will changing it make and do

I really need to remember it to the

millimeter

777 if you're wondering

Phil

welcome Simon thank you very much how

you doing right yeah good good to see

you good stuff all right should we go

inside and welcome to show you what

we're going to do yes please yeah

okay can you describe the optimal saddle

height for me Saddle height for me is

the first part we assess in any byte fit

because it is the engine room right if

you're not sitting high enough and in

the right position you can't produce

power effectively right so your two

biggest muscles of your body are you

quad and your glute you definitely want

both of them contributing to your

paddling with that what we do is look at

that you wouldn't want to put you too

high so your knee extension you're

losing the pedal the bottom Strokes that

definitely won't have a power and it'll

probably cause you you know strain and

over compensation other areas and maybe

even pain discomfort seem too low quite

actually quite dangerous for the knee

because you put a lot of more

compressive forces through the knee and

also robs your power if you're sitting

low a little bit low and far back your

hip is closed yeah so you sit quite

close down here

you can't bring your hip extensors then

your glutes into the game that is the

biggest strongest muscle in your body so

we want that to contribute so we quite

often see near people come in in that

thing and they say I get really really

tired quads it's because they're only

using their quads yeah so that's why

it's so important it's not so important

for some other things for example

um you don't really produce power

beneath your knee in cycling it's the

glute and the quad that produced apart

and then the the below the knee the

ankle calf for their job is to transfer

the power to the pursue but they've got

to be packed in as well and I know if I

remember rightly you pedal a little bit

toe down some people pedal very heel

down yeah it's often what we call our

preferred movement pathway but what we

have to do is really just factor that in

and get the knee extension right you

know so that you can produce more power

and it's really strange once you take

people there they it often has a

demonstrative impact on their overall

fit they go oh this feels a lot easier

you know it's almost like you take the

handbrake off and they can work now

they're producing power more effectively

but it can be hard to work out yourself

okay can you take me through

a bike fit then so that I can see what

my perfect saddle height is and then

from that we can then give the viewers

some tips on how they can find their

optimal side height as well yes to start

with Phil doesn't put me on my bike at

all but instead checks my basic

flexibility to see if there are any

biomechanical issues that will need to

be factored in so what we're going to do

now is just quickly check your straight

leg raise okay so for you for you I

don't think this is going to be a

problem but we'll basically do and you

can do this is obviously lift your leg

up there and what you what we generally

say in cycling if you've got more than

75 degrees so that's 90. you've got more

than 75 you're going to be able to cycle

no because you'll be able to get your

your seller height quite high and your

knee will be able to take it you know so

you can don't actually need that much

hamstring flexibility for cycling okay

but if you're struggling to get yourself

a high even where you think it should be

then I would consider look at your

hamstring flexibility because it could

be the limiting factor yeah but you're

actually fine I mean looking again up

there it's absolutely fine I'm getting a

bit of tension there but not too bad you

know and I always look at hips and at

the same time to say external and

internal rotation may be hard for people

to do at home but of course you have

flexibility can impact on how you sit

and therefore how your kneel working so

but once again you're pretty good

right so

oh should we go for ballpark saddle

height to start with so what what can we

tell the viewers just to get them in

there yep so I would if it would take

the leg on this side to the bottom of

the pedal stroke yeah unclip okay and

rest your heel on the pedal which is a

little bit difficult on the speed plate

and that should be you should be able to

get your heel to the pedal line can you

I can but my my hips are now rotating

off to one side that's a good Mark of

that in the bottom of the pedal stroke

if you can get your heel to the pedal

that can be completely straight but

you're not overreaching as you say or

yeah off to one side yeah

um the other way you can do it is by if

you have a friend who had gone the

amateur we could get you clipped in go

to the bottom of the pedal stroke and

look at the knee angle at the bottom

okay normally between 30 and 35 degrees

up the obtuse angle the other angle we

can talk about that

um there are easy ways the Le Mans

method's fantastic you know it'll really

get you close most people to the

ballpark yeah okay so that is remember

measuring your inseam so taking the tail

measure up to the bottom where you're

going just as you would a pair of

trousers and you times that bar 0.883

thank you and when that gives you your

or ideal satellite that's then you can

measure and put on there but as a

general rule I always talk about

the 70 of people in the middle of the

normal distribution curve these sort of

methods get you towards your your goal

you know okay well I'm really intrigued

then because this ballpark method yeah

it doesn't agree with my well you feel

bad and that's the thing these are just

static tests so this will be really

interesting to see because I agree with

you you think this is a little bit low

for you don't you so what we should do

now is go and discover that why that is

you know and that's where somebody might

need a bit more of an objective second

opinion which is what a bike that is

really you know yeah what I would like

to do now is get some objective data yes

we'll actually get some motion capture

some Dynamic numbers where we can

actually understand what's actually

happening in your knee all right okay

sounds good

[Music]

the dynamic numbers Phil's referring to

are the angles that my joints are making

as I'm pedaling and to see them

accurately he's using a well-established

motion capture System created by retool

this allows us then to see if I'm

getting towards a theoretical ideal

saddle height to begin with I lower my

saddle so that it lines up with the

basic methods we've just discussed

so if you start cycling okay right just

start pedaling okay

what you start to see is that there's a

little blue man oh yeah that's you this

is your knee Trace from the front Okay

and then

yellow means you're outside the range

that retail thinks is normal for that

joint

and I think as I said they are very very

real reasons why you might not need to

be green yeah yeah okay me to interpret

and do right but there are certain

numbers that will really help us

understand whether the saddle Heights

too low for you which it 100 is yeah

okay so it yeah that's that's

interesting then too

this feels too low for me yeah what is

it on there that shows you that it's too

low so what we're looking at here and

the first important most important

number of all that data I'm showing that

it carries on down the screen is your

maximum knee extension yeah okay it

should be anywhere between these let's

say 32 and 42 degrees and I tend to

agree with that okay okay and you're

sitting at 48 so what that says to me is

you are sitting too low your knee is too

bent at the bottom of the pedal stroke

now we've moved instances into this

Dynamic setting this is what you can

definitely see you're saying hello and I

think it's because you mentioned it to

me earlier you're quite a toe-down yeah

right Peddler yeah and we'll see that

when we get you when we get your saddle

height correct in a minute you'll

actually see that come back yeah I think

that's why that basic off the pike test

to put you here on the pedal isn't

working for you because it doesn't

actually replicate the way you pedal

[Music]

I'm gonna go 20. all right right cool so

that feels

like my normal saddle height possibly a

little bit more extension in my I can

feel it in my hamstrings maybe that's

slightly more than normal yep

but

so

your numbers have changed quite

dramatically as you can see there you

know throughout 48 we're nearly in the

window there now all right

um we do quite a lot of ankling you do

you can see your ankle range there yeah

so he's up at the right so what that's

done is that you do pedal in a really

nice sort of like flurry way with your

ankle so the knee extension sometimes

looking a bit low you have to take all

those points I agree with you that

that's better yeah I wonder whether we

now we just adjust the saddle slightly

forward and see if that feels different

to you okay so why are you thinking that

we move the saddle forward because I

want to do down here is have a look at

this because your knee forward a foot

see there's a minus 20 okay so that's

the old Plumb line measurement yeah stop

pedaling remember you should take the

Plumb line drop it for the further sort

of position make sure you put it on what

I see with that is that it says you're

sitting quite far back and that's what I

think because I didn't push the saddle

forward when I put you up so I think you

see what you might be feeling

your hamstrings it's because you're

having to sit far back to get to the end

of the pedal stroke right so I'm going

to move you forward and that'll bring

you over and we'll see how you feel with

that yeah okay the knee forwarder foot

number gives us that it gives me a lot

of confidence I can do that without

giving you knees knee any problems yes

if you're already sitting quite far

forward we can't do that because she's

gonna yeah we might get your saddle

height right but all of a sudden your

knees in a bad position okay makes sense

yeah it's gone up and it feels I think

what you're now feeling is the lack of

four after adjustment which you have to

consider when you're changing your

saddle height yeah yeah so we want that

saddle to actually go back where it was

okay with the new satellite all right it

makes sense yeah

[Music]

foreign

so what we've done now is just create

your setback Side by moving the saddle

forward about 10 to maybe to 12 and a

half mil okay

um just moving it Forward there what

we're going to rather than the

measurements here we're going to look at

how you feel and how the body reacts

with the numbers there that's the most

important thing but I'll be interested

to see if this feels different to you

okay we'll start again

well you still on actually off you go

when you're ready

so

you need to you need to look at that

okay so whilst we say we don't fit the

numbers it is nice when they all go

green yeah

um so yourself

um if I take this back up a minute

actually

it's interesting it hasn't changed my

knee extension exactly how does it feel

well it feels like I'm a bit I'm a bit

far forward I kind of want to sort of

Shuffle back it feels like I'm not

recruiting my glutes as much okay and

I'm conscious that I'm not really

putting out any power yeah but I feel

like if I was to

like if at the minute I'm running a lot

of sights across and it feels like if I

got to like a section of Muddy grass I'd

want to sit further back and really like

recruit my glutes a bit more yeah okay

so I do feel a little bit like quad

heavy at the moment okay and that's the

nature of your riding and that comes

together with why you have that pedal

shot you I think you like to lean into

the pedal stroke as well and really

really extend down with what you think

so this is why when we got this stuff on

it's easy it's like a playground and we

can find where we want to be in the

window I'm happy with the window that

you're still in it but it's not optimal

for you so we're going to do is make it

feel better what I'm going to do is I

just push that saddle back at 50 of the

way we came forward and see how you feel

what the numbers say okay yeah why do

you think because by moving the saddle

forward yes we've effectively lowered my

seat height exactly but why is my knee

extension not changed on there so I

would have thought that would make me

lower right exactly you should do but

what I think you as an individual absorb

loads in the in the ankle but I'm going

to make you feel a bit happy so in my

experience often with Pros

you're gonna love this is they won't

change the knee angle no matter what you

do with the satellite because that's

that is the most important number for

power production yeah and so often

they'll do different things of the hip

and back or different things down at the

Foot and Ankle but most people normal

people though are not anywhere near the

right position like you are and often

they'll then the angle will change quite

dramatically okay that makes sense

you're selecting because I'm changing

things your your body a new

subconsciously are selecting to absorb

those changes at the ankle yeah and

that's where we're seeing the change in

the numbers yeah and that's why you

don't feel that that our ultimate why is

my knee angle changed that's why it

hasn't changed because it's basically

your body's quite clever at saying I'm

going to preserve the knee hang on make

it right yeah so I think you're right as

we come forward we do a lot of that so

the two things we can do here we can

kind of go further back or we can go

further up let's try again further up I

think we should do because I think going

further up with the effect to see valid

moves you backwards yeah but then we get

that knee angle again and I think where

you want to be up well I come to the

mother want to drive you've got you've

got to listen to what people want and

they're nearly always in all this data

people tell you what the problem is and

I think I'll tell you how they ride a

bike and that let's do that shall we

you're push me into Uncharted Territory

now I've never had a saddle height this

high before

so of course you have to remember your

crank length is always mentioned here on

both on both cranks just where the pedal

spinner comes in and size on 172 and a

half length cranks which would pretty

much come as standard with this size of

bike for some people though crank length

can make a big difference too

um how comfortable the bike is you know

so

um but 172 and a half I'll have a chat

to say about that and whether that's

worth changing at all

right then tell me how this feels okay

I feel like

I'm quite extended now okay if I was

going to do a TT or something yep

I reckon I'd be I'd be pretty happy with

this yeah but I I kind of there's still

a part of me that feels like I'm quite

far forward because I've got a long

history of bike riding so how much of

this is me telling you that I'm not

comfortable because I'm not in the

position that I've ridden in for the

last 20 years and also what happens

because a lot of people watching won't

have that history and so how do you find

out from someone that's newer to the

sport yeah how do you listen to that

person that's so you make so you're the

worst person in the world to buy fit

really like some of these people they're

always really good rider bikes and if I

can make you one percent better in the

terms of Tour de France isn't it that's

important yeah but those are the margins

you're dealing with in those cases and

often it's very close to the finished

article I would say you're it you can

you've written a certain position for so

long it's so intuitive you know what it

is you told me straight away put out 15

mil yeah I've deliberately gone 20 to

challenge you and you've told me yeah I

don't like that yeah and I think we've

um most of the people we see and most

people watching out there I've never

been that optimized because they haven't

had the luxury of pedaling as long as

you have yeah yeah so what they're still

almost on their Journey towards the

ultimate the best the best position yeah

and what we mainly try and do through

this process I think is take take away

the barriers to them doing what they

want to do which is generally riding the

bike and enjoying it yeah achieving

their goals on a bike yeah there's often

barriers in the way the crankland being

one of them you know saddle choice being

another the wrong saddle height we'll be

doing here today being another one yeah

so yeah you're a bit of a poor guinea

pig really yeah so demonstrative of the

change what you are demonstrating though

is that you should listen to the person

and if it doesn't feel right it probably

isn't right yeah yeah we're using the

objective data to be a bit more

scientific about that and go okay I

understand why that is yeah sorry and

you can get you in the right place I'm

intrigued though if I left my position

like this because of mine now if you

disregard my comments yes would you look

at this these numbers and my position

now and be like oh yeah I think that's I

think that's good you are in definitely

now you're in the window of what retail

says is normative yeah yeah but I'm not

happy because you're not happy that

makes sense I will take that leap though

say someone comes in here and they just

started cycling and they're sitting in a

criminally a negligent position where if

I let them go I there's a very good

chance they're gonna end up injured or

cause them self-harm yeah at that point

I'll be really strong and say no I think

we need to change this but you need to

get used to it yeah build up your time

on the bike do some things off the bike

review it's different I think I'm

listening to a pro you'd be deaf not to

listen to the years and years worth of

how I feel built into your head yeah

what I've done is push the barrier to

the top of the window yeah no that's a

bit too high I don't like that and a bit

too far forward now and now we're

dropping back down in there make you

happy yeah yeah you you'll be hard to

change Simon as a Byrider because

because as we discussed how long have

you ridden the same side before or you

can ride any saddle can't you I'm the

different one yeah no I can write any

saddle um but I've ridden in this

position pretty much since about

2003 yeah I think yeah because someone

told me to put my saddle up yeah which

they were probably right to do yeah I

think let's get you back in that

position all right okay up off and drop

you back down okay yeah

just see a foot and that's and then

we're going to bring the seat back a

little bit

yeah that feels a bit low

so I should listen to you know either

that or you just ruined me

I probably would go up all right hop on

up

yeah that feels better

not better that's better

how my number's looking let's have a

look

hopefully good

you just

seeing the extension there right yeah

don't worry about that 43 it's this that

confuse it can you do so you're such a

beautiful ankler yeah so you have a

little ankle Ranger but people used to

say Bradley used to ride like that

there's equally people who go into like

quite you know really heels down yeah

and you can see if you put your heels

down you heal down on that watch that

number change there

there you go yeah so now your your

subtle height in terms of knee extension

is ideal for what retail thinks yeah

yeah and now if you let you pedal it the

way you want to

the anchor goes back up and the angle

comes out a little bit yeah I'm I'm I

I'm comfortable with this though yeah

I'm comfortable with this do you know

what will make it

a whole lot easier maybe yeah I think if

you wanted to ride

um in a really aggressive position yeah

but without a 172 knife cranks probably

close up your hip just ever so slightly

at the top of the pedal stroke yeah so

you think I should get shorter cranks I

I'm anyone watching this knows what I

think my crank length yeah I think crank

length as we get older and you're not

getting any younger I'm not again so we

often say you're adaptable and this is

adjustable yeah the one thing if you

came in here from and I didn't know

sorry Richardson was a X pro and just

said I want to do this I'll probably put

you on 170s the reason being is we now

know it makes no difference to your

overall performance in terms of power

yeah yeah all it does is change your

gearing yeah yeah yes it does yeah why

would you pedal a bigger Circle

it's kinematically harder yeah your knee

has to go up and down further your hip

has to close up more so I would change

crank line for you some people

absolutely need chain yours would just

be a subtle thing to mean that you I

think we could achieve keep you in your

aggressive position for even longer okay

further into yeah you keep the position

the same but the crank level change

okay Phil it seems like there's a lot to

unpack here in that my preferred saddle

height doesn't agree with the numbers

so so how does what do we uh what do we

interpret from all of this yeah and

that's why you come back to you don't

fit to numbers you use the numbers to

help you make considered better

decisions yeah so typically you were

difficult and it'd be really nicely just

all slide in there you you knew exactly

when you came in you said a little bit

low because this wasn't set up for you

we've moved you into the window and

Beyond it and then moved it back down

and got you back to where you were and

it's still it's because you pedal

slightly outside of the what the retail

measures is the normal way it doesn't

mean it's wrong at all right yeah it's

got a lot of bangling motion it's quite

typical sometimes that in mountain

bikers and I actually think it your

saddle height whilst you're in you're

just in the bottom of the window it's

absolutely fine just you that's where

you're comfortable the most important

thing is to in your case is to listen to

you as someone with a bike a long time

and knows that's hello High I think it's

pretty good right now could it be better

right I I am my personal opinion look at

all this is like you're quite long in

the fight all right and that and the

crack one turn two and a half crank

length while it's not massive long

probably forces you to sit a little bit

further back hence when we brought you

up and forward you felt cramped yeah and

it's about absorbing that crank length

here so I think if we were to put yes it

gun to my head

is your son ideal Rachel thinks it's a

little bit low you say it's fine I'm

comfortable with it if we wanted to put

it higher for say we wanted more power

say you're still on the BC program or

trying to defro and do those things you

go I'll do anything to bit but I think I

would explore put you higher but

dropping your crank length yeah because

you would have to accommodate that crank

and drop into that but I think if you

make the circle underneath you smaller

it would help with your particularly

long thighs and legs to absorb that and

therefore getting that even potentially

even better position okay yeah so

so there is potentially a more optimal

saddle height for me yeah but to find it

would involve changing my crank yes and

it's also going to involve changing my

stem which also involves changing my

handlebars so to wrap things up then

try and neaten things up the reason

potentially an optimal saddle height for

everyone but broadly speaking there is a

window that is

correct yep right and so people kind of

don't necessarily need to worry about

being millimeter perfect because it

won't make that much difference unless

there is an issue yeah and then and at

that point then you need to start

playing around is that a fair I think

that's a really good summary I think

yeah to to demystify it and relax people

though in my opinion there's a bike fit

window there is no one ideal position

yeah there's quite a lot of Pros who

might what we call micro adjust each day

they'll change their satellite a few mil

you might have met some of them because

they just want to feel the muscle

tightness in a slightly different part

of the quad and as long as you know

where the window is where the Anchor

Point is what's wrong with that you know

yeah so there no there is no one ideal

position I'll give you a good example of

that

if you're an office worker and you do

most recycling at the weekend yeah and

most weeks week to week you have the

posture in the position of sitting in

the office doing that work when you go

on a two-week sighting holiday your

position but probably could be better at

the end of the two weeks I think because

you've been cycling more yeah yeah so

that just tells you there's a window

there's a window when oh I can't do much

cycling that's that's my boyfriend and

then when I'm doing loads of cycling

actually I've become more flexible I'm

more used to it I can actually get a

little bit of a higher salary slightly

further forward because I'm doing this

is all I'm doing yeah so there is

there's almost like Windows for

different times but yeah I think if

people use those basic guidelines and

get into that into that window that it's

fair most people can get fairly close to

it you know most of the time

felt that's great thank you very much

okay

right a couple of weeks have gone by

since I went up to Phil's and I've been

giving it a lot of thought since then

firstly I'm still amused at how much of

an impact my ankles have on my bike

they're no surprise really I guess that

I'm a massive anchor ankiller important

to get that right secondly a big take

home from me was how quickly our saddle

height Mission evolved into a saddle

position Mission and of course when you

think about it it's impossible to

separate saddle height from how far

forward or backward your saddle needs to

be and what of my position after a

fantastically insightful and genuinely

enjoyable few hours trying to download

as much of Phil's knowledge as I could

where is my saddle now I've put it up

three mil it's gone up and it's gone

further forward as well so I have moved

it as per Phil's recommendations is it

perfect no probably not but as Phil said

I'm in the window I'm in that optimal

window of bike fit and yeah if I was

after a handful of more watts and a more

Aero position I would definitely follow

his recommendations and try shorter

cranks and a longer stem but I'm not and

also I feel like if I was to raise my

saddle more and move it further forward

it would compromise the other types of

riding that I do like gravel riding and

cycle across and mountain biking and I

think therein lies the issue with

striving for Perfection I don't think

there is a perfect saddle position

unless you only do one specific thing

like ride around a track or something

like that because it's so dependent on

what you ride and where you ride and how

long you ride for there's always a

compromise to be made and and as well as

that but if it's constantly evolving as

we learn more and science can tell us

more what we know now about bike fit is

different to what we knew 10 years ago

just 10 years ago

so where does that leave us them firstly

I think it's super important to remember

that those basic fit tools like putting

your heel on the pedal at six foot

position in the lemond method are a

really good starter for getting you in

that window it feels all important

window then I can't recommend enough

filming yourself whilst riding on an

indoor trainer it'll give you an idea of

your ankle angles and your knee angles

even if you don't have that pinpoint

accuracy that you get with a motion

capture system it will still give you

some insight as to how you might need to

evolve your position from those basic

setups and then unless you've got any

pain when you're riding in which case

you might want to go see it by fit I

think that's enough because beyond that

you're dealing almost with bike fit

philosophy as you are with actual

physiology I mean what Phil recommends

might differ from what other bike

Fitters recommend although with his

track record

for my money's on Phil sorry folks but

anyway I would love to hear your

thoughts on this topic do you agree that

there is no such thing as a perfect

saddle position or if you do think

there's a perfect position what is it

how do you find it and do you agree with

Phil's thoughts get involved in the

comment section before I go huge thanks

to Phil for his time and his insight as

well we'll have more from him coming up

very soon