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Italy 2024, where the battles
of the past still smoulder.
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Are you a fascist?
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If you ask me like that,
I probably would say yes
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00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:19,160
but I have to complete the term
and say I'm a revolutionary.
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00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:24,520
A march in Milan for a
far-right student
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killed almost 50 years ago
by the far-left.
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00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:32,840
You're seeing things in these
recent years that are
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very similar to what happened
at the beginning of the regime.
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00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:41,720
The years of violent clashes
between fascists
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and anti-fascists have gone,
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00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:47,200
but the words and the
polarisation live on.
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Being anti-fascism in Italy
means be a violent person
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who shut the door
to all others.
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00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:02,520
Competing narratives in the
country that created fascism...
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The Mussolini calendar.
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You said this is the most
sold calendar in Italy?
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..and still allows
its sympathisers.
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As it draws to a close,
the finale...
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..with a chilling throwback to
Italy's dictatorship decades.
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ALL: Presente!
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Presente!
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Presente!
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These kinds of demonstrations
with the fascist salutes happen
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across the country
year in, year out.
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The state allows them to take
place and society somehow
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seems to tolerate them.
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I want to find out why, and why
some of the images associated
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with the dark chapters
of Italy's past
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still infuse the present.
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Presente!
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For the hardcore believers,
a return to where it,
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or rather he, began.
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The small town of Predappio
in north-east Italy,
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the birthplace of Benito
Mussolini, the country's
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fascist dictator, assassinated
in 1945 after a ruthless
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20-year rule.
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Every year on the anniversary
of his death
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the faithful gather
to honour him.
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Not for them the
established narrative
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of his reign of terror.
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Down the road, Mussolini merch.
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From the traditional
to the tacky,
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an extraordinary world
of dictatorship kitsch.
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Can you imagine an equivalent
place existing in Germany
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selling Hitler and Nazi
paraphernalia?
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It just wouldn't happen.
This is extraordinary.
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It's Mussolini marketing,
and it sells.
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Then it begins.
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Part funeral procession,
part military parade.
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A pilgrimage to his
resting place.
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BELL TOLLS
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They're called to attention.
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And then silence
for their victim.
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They file in towards his tomb.
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No.
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We're not welcome.
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ARCHIVE: In Milan, Mussolini
made an important statement...
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It's a salute deriving
from ancient Rome,
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adopted by the fascists
and passed on to the Nazis.
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Benito Mussolini, nicknamed
"Il Duce" or "The Leader",
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swept to power in 1922,
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beginning two decades of
totalitarian rule
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marked by a brutal repression
of opponents,
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concentration camps
and invasions abroad.
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He came by armoured train
for the meeting
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with Signor Mussolini.
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Anti-Semitic laws persecuted
Jews, worsening after Italy's
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wartime alliance with
Hitler's Germany.
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..from Germany, unless he
wanted something.
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After the war, a neo-fascist
party was allowed to form
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and figures from the Mussolini
era filled state institutions.
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The party remained sidelined
until Silvio Berlusconi
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brought it into his coalition,
legitimising the extreme.
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Today, the blackshirt salutes
fill various yearly tributes.
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ALL: Presente!
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They say it's historical
commemoration.
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Critics call it
glorification of past crimes.
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ALL: Presente!
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Italy's post-war constitution
has one article that bans
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reforming the fascist party.
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The subsequent so-called
Scelba law forbids groups
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pursuing the same
anti-democratic aims,
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glorifying fascism, using
violence to do so,
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or promoting the suppression
of freedom.
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But it's only been used twice
to dissolve fringe movements,
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and it leaves it up to judges
to decide whether acts
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like the salute are a crime.
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Many think the law could've
been used after this -
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protests over Covid
restrictions that attacked
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Italy's main trade union.
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It was seen as out of the
fascist playbook,
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since the unions were targeted
under Mussolini.
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Forza Nuova took part that day
- a fringe, hard-right party
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still not banned.
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THEY CHANT
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Hi. Wow. Well, this is...
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Luca Castellini, its deputy
leader, was jailed
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for the violence but
freed pending appeal.
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..the flag up here of the
Donetsk People's Republic.
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Esatto, Donbas.
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Donbas in Ukraine, the part
of Ukraine taken by Russia
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or claimed by Russia.
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The Mussolini calendar.
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You said this is the most
sold calendar in Italy?
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"We are fascists."
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"A call to arms."
"We are fascists."
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And then up here, this is the,
of course,
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the flag of the old...
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..fascist republic.
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This was also
Luca Castellini...
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CHEERS
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..as head of Verona's Ultras,
Italy's hardcore football fans,
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long a breeding ground of
extremism.
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He's been banned from the
stadium after saying
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a black player could
never be truly Italian.
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Do you think it's acceptable
to joke about Adolf Hitler?
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Would you say
the same thing again?
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00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:17,880
You would repeat
the same thing?
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00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:22,560
What would you say to
a Jewish person,
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00:10:22,560 --> 00:10:25,400
an Italian Jewish person,
who has lost,
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00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:27,280
who lost their family
to the Holocaust?
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00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:43,040
The Scelba law in the Italian
constitution
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prohibits what it calls
the praising, the threatening,
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or the use of violence,
and says that that
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could allow a group
to be banned, dissolved.
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Isn't that exactly what
Forza Nuova did against CGdL,
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against the trade union?
Did they not use violence?
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Did you not use violence,
you used threats,
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00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:06,440
you targeted that union?
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00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:20,480
No government has cracked down,
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but some feel Prime Minister
Giorgia Meloni
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is even less likely to do so.
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She started in politics
in the neo-fascist youth,
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interviewed aged 19
by French TV.
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The party she formed,
Brothers of Italy,
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has its roots in post-war
fascism, keeping the same
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tricolour flame logo.
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But she has moderated and moved
it away from the far-right
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to the mainstream.
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She's topping polls before the
upcoming European elections,
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an example for Europe's
nationalist politicians
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hoping she'll lead a new
right-wing wave -
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and hoping to emulate her
success in their countries.
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And on the past,
she had this message.
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The Italian right has handed
fascism over history
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for decades now, unambiguously
condemning the suppression
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of democracy
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and the ignominious
anti-Jewish laws.
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And yet, overt political
extremism has continued
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to fester and flourish here...
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..seemingly without punishment.
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A Nazi birthday cake for a
senior Forza Nuova figure
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drew little public reaction.
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But Meloni's supporters say
the issue is with the way
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in which anti-fascists have
protested over the years,
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both in clashes with the other
side and with police.
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And so, while the Prime
Minister has never directly
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called herself anti-fascist,
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one of her oldest political
allies says it's a nuance
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in Italy that needs
to be understood.
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Being anti-fascist during the
fascism was a very brave act,
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brave for freedom,
brave for democracy.
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But after the falling of
the fascism,
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being anti-fascist means
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violence, means a lot of
young students killed.
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This is why she's very clear -
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I always condemned the fascism
every day of my life,
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but please don't tell me to
share what the anti-fascists
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did after the falling
of fascism.
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If somebody looks from outside
and they see Italy in 2024
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with hundreds of people in the
main second city of Italy
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doing the fascist salute,
how do you think that looks?
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If you are commemorating, er...
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..um, a person dead,
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even if he was a fascist,
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this is not a crime, because...
But should it be?
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..being a neo-fascist
is another thing.
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Should it be a crime to use
that gesture,
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to use the fascist salute in
the middle of an Italian city?
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No, no, I don't think so.
You are fascist
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if you want to reintroduce
the fascism in your country,
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not if you make the
fascism salute.
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That is the Roman salute.
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Because the fascism is only 20
years in the Italian history.
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Italian history is really
bigger than 20 years
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of fascism.
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Every, every Prime Minister
goes to the most important
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Italian monument to
say every year
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that we condemn the fascism.
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But more than this
is an obsession.
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And so one side of Italy sees
fascism and its threat
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as a ghost haunting
the present -
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the other as a fantasy
whipped up by the left.
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Geographically, socially,
politically, Italy is divided,
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but it's also split in
the historical narrative
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people believe and are fed.
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Across Italy, the past,
politically speaking,
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lives on. Historical battles
still part of the present.
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We've come to Bologna, which
has always been at the centre
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of the fight against fascism.
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Here are the names and faces
of the partisans that died
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defending this city from the
fascists in the 1940s.
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But then it went on to 1980
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with Italy's worst
terror attack,
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bombings at the train station
here in Bologna by neo-fascists
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that killed 85 people.
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And so fascism and anti-fascism
have always been at the heart
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of this city's, this country's,
political lexicon.
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We're seeing things in
these recent years
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that are very similar to what
happened at the beginning of
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the regime, and at the
beginning of fascism
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a century ago.
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Attacks on freedom of press,
censorship, um,
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freedom for the LGBTQI
community,
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00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:03,960
attacks on the liberty and
freedom of women
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to determine what they can do
on their own body.
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So do you feel that the fight,
the anti-fascism fight,
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is still relevant today?
Definitely.
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00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:15,720
I definitely believe
it's very relevant.
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And I also see again, to
strike a parallel, the fact
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that the far-right, not only in
Italy but all over the world,
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is sort of trying to find a
scapegoat for people's
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difficulties in everyday lives
by attacking the stranger,
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the person who comes
from abroad, the migrant.
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It's something similar
again to what was done
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a century ago.
So to me, it's quite striking
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as being very close
to fascism. You know,
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a new form of fascism,
neo-fascism, in fact,
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because it's again that same
sort of tactic -
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I'll make you scared
of something
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that's different to you.
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It's that same sort of rhetoric
of many governments in power,
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from Trump to Orban,
which really singles out
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00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:08,400
a lot of battles for social
justice or for civil rights
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00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:09,880
and says they're wrong.
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In Germany, you could never
have somebody going and making
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a public declaration of
support for Nazism.
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You could never show
a swastika.
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00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:22,840
In Italy, there are groups
that exist, plenty of them.
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These skinhead groups,
the far-right groups, you know,
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00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:29,240
the Roman salute. Why is this
all allowed to happen?
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00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:32,480
Germany in some ways sort of
had to address the past
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because there was victors and
those who had lost the war.
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Italy's role was a little
more ambiguous, right?
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00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:43,360
So, first with Hitler
and then surrendered.
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And there's much to be said
about really grappling
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with that legacy.
248
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That legacy is still being
debated and dissected.
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The next generation
learning about the wounds
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of the past one.
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History is weaponised
in a country
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still not at peace
with its past.
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Nostalgia given free rein.
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Sugar coating the bitter
parts of collective memory.
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The political extreme here
is perhaps small,
256
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but they're outspoken,
they're permitted,
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and some of their views are
seeping into the mainstream.
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Camerata Benito Mussolini!
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ALL: Presente!
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My name is Roberto Fiore and
I'm the national secretary
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of Forza Nuova.
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00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:32,160
I define myself as someone who
really, who has certainly got,
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00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:37,360
some ideas, some inspiration
by certain parts of fascism.
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Are you a fascist?
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If you ask me like that,
I probably would say yes,
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but I have to complete the term
and say I'm a revolutionary.
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Italy hasn't got the
intelligence and the courage
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to say, well, OK, fascism was
good on this and this and that,
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and maybe not good
in other things.
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So as a reaction,
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I really, I accept,
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I don't refuse
the term of fascism.
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00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:10,520
But are you denying that
the fascist regime
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was violent and criminal?
Yes, absolutely, I deny that.
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Mussolini signed the racial
laws, I mean, he deported,
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this was a regime that deported
Jews to death camps,
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that outlawed the opposition,
that put political opponents
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in internment camps.
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Are you honestly saying that
you support those measures?
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The internment camps are things
that happened with the war.
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00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:35,560
The Americans did it,
the Germans did it,
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00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:37,080
the Italians did it, and so on.
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I'm talking about people
who were gassed,
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who were shot,
who were exterminated
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00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:45,400
for their religion. Fascism has
never been accused of this.
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00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:47,920
I'm talking about fascism
as a regime.
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00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:52,560
Mussolini and all his ministers
have never been tried for this.
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00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:56,200
Do you believe that this
government in power in Italy
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is occupying your political
space?
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00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:03,040
No, I believe that they are
freeing a lot of
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00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:06,600
the political space that we
are going to take. Why?
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00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:09,160
One of the main points
is immigration.
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00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:11,960
We have always
been against immigration.
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00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:15,440
Meloni has always been
against immigration,
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00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:18,800
sometimes with our same
tone and strength.
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00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:22,920
Now, immigrants last year,
this year,
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00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:26,400
have increased the number
of 50%.
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00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:29,840
Where do you think Italian
people are going to go
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00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:36,000
after this betrayal of, um,
original positions?
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00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:38,800
Your movement or a movement
like yours would not exist
301
00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:43,480
and has been banned in Greece,
for example Golden Dawn,
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00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:45,400
in Germany it would
never exist.
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00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:47,880
You would never be able to use
the symbols and the slogans
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00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:50,720
that your party uses in a
country like Germany.
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00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:52,440
Why is that the case?
306
00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:54,920
Because Germany has got
a bigger problem.
307
00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:57,160
You think Germany's got the
problem rather than Italy?
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00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:00,520
No... Yes, because
freedom is freedom.
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00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:06,680
Neither victor nor vanquished.
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00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:10,600
Italy memorialises in a way
others do not.
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00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:14,600
The name, architecture and
gestures of the regime
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00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:16,000
allowed to live on.
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00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:18,080
What do you think,
we have to destroy everything?
314
00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:21,880
This is the cancel culture
that we don't share.
315
00:24:23,360 --> 00:24:26,800
The question is, does the
ideology itself survive?
316
00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:31,440
I would say there is a silent
majority that would say
317
00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:34,520
yes, yes, yes
on a lot of our ideas.
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00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:37,240
And is Italy the
laboratory of fascism,
319
00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:40,040
once again a political
testing room?
320
00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:44,320
What should be seen as a crime,
as apology of fascism,
321
00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:47,200
is actually again
downplayed as,
322
00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:50,040
oh, no, it's just nostalgic,
it's a tribute.
323
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:54,080
The worry here is not that
Italy's democracy per se
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00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:56,440
is under threat, but that
a governing party
325
00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:58,760
which has not severed its
historical roots
326
00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:01,360
still winks to that
support base.
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00:25:01,360 --> 00:25:05,600
And that speech, notions,
even policies once banished
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00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:07,560
are increasingly normalised.
42440
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