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These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated: 1 00:00:02,840 --> 00:00:09,080 Italy 2024, where the battles of the past still smoulder. 2 00:00:09,080 --> 00:00:11,120 Are you a fascist? 3 00:00:11,120 --> 00:00:14,600 If you ask me like that, I probably would say yes 4 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:19,160 but I have to complete the term and say I'm a revolutionary. 5 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:24,520 A march in Milan for a far-right student 6 00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:27,720 killed almost 50 years ago by the far-left. 7 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:32,840 You're seeing things in these recent years that are 8 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:36,360 very similar to what happened at the beginning of the regime. 9 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:41,720 The years of violent clashes between fascists 10 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:43,960 and anti-fascists have gone, 11 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:47,200 but the words and the polarisation live on. 12 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:54,360 Being anti-fascism in Italy means be a violent person 13 00:00:54,360 --> 00:00:57,560 who shut the door to all others. 14 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:02,520 Competing narratives in the country that created fascism... 15 00:01:08,320 --> 00:01:09,640 The Mussolini calendar. 16 00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:13,040 You said this is the most sold calendar in Italy? 17 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:15,960 ..and still allows its sympathisers. 18 00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:24,480 As it draws to a close, the finale... 19 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:30,480 ..with a chilling throwback to Italy's dictatorship decades. 20 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:31,600 ALL: Presente! 21 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:35,040 Presente! 22 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:38,480 Presente! 23 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:50,320 These kinds of demonstrations with the fascist salutes happen 24 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:53,040 across the country year in, year out. 25 00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:56,760 The state allows them to take place and society somehow 26 00:01:56,760 --> 00:01:58,240 seems to tolerate them. 27 00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:02,320 I want to find out why, and why some of the images associated 28 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:05,160 with the dark chapters of Italy's past 29 00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:07,480 still infuse the present. 30 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:08,920 Presente! 31 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:18,320 For the hardcore believers, a return to where it, 32 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:20,200 or rather he, began. 33 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:25,400 The small town of Predappio in north-east Italy, 34 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:28,440 the birthplace of Benito Mussolini, the country's 35 00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:32,920 fascist dictator, assassinated in 1945 after a ruthless 36 00:02:32,920 --> 00:02:35,120 20-year rule. 37 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:37,600 Every year on the anniversary of his death 38 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:39,960 the faithful gather to honour him. 39 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:42,480 Not for them the established narrative 40 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:44,040 of his reign of terror. 41 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:47,880 Down the road, Mussolini merch. 42 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:53,720 From the traditional to the tacky, 43 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:57,680 an extraordinary world of dictatorship kitsch. 44 00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:01,920 Can you imagine an equivalent place existing in Germany 45 00:03:01,920 --> 00:03:04,880 selling Hitler and Nazi paraphernalia? 46 00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:07,480 It just wouldn't happen. This is extraordinary. 47 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:10,640 It's Mussolini marketing, and it sells. 48 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:17,160 Then it begins. 49 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:20,400 Part funeral procession, part military parade. 50 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:25,120 A pilgrimage to his resting place. 51 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:26,520 BELL TOLLS 52 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:30,360 They're called to attention. 53 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:36,400 And then silence for their victim. 54 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:43,920 They file in towards his tomb. 55 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:48,240 No. 56 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:49,680 We're not welcome. 57 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:44,880 ARCHIVE: In Milan, Mussolini made an important statement... 58 00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:47,520 It's a salute deriving from ancient Rome, 59 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:50,720 adopted by the fascists and passed on to the Nazis. 60 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:54,520 Benito Mussolini, nicknamed "Il Duce" or "The Leader", 61 00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:57,000 swept to power in 1922, 62 00:04:57,000 --> 00:04:59,800 beginning two decades of totalitarian rule 63 00:04:59,800 --> 00:05:02,480 marked by a brutal repression of opponents, 64 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:04,960 concentration camps and invasions abroad. 65 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:06,880 He came by armoured train for the meeting 66 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:08,080 with Signor Mussolini. 67 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:11,000 Anti-Semitic laws persecuted Jews, worsening after Italy's 68 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:13,520 wartime alliance with Hitler's Germany. 69 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:16,200 ..from Germany, unless he wanted something. 70 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:21,160 After the war, a neo-fascist party was allowed to form 71 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:24,720 and figures from the Mussolini era filled state institutions. 72 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:29,800 The party remained sidelined until Silvio Berlusconi 73 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:33,600 brought it into his coalition, legitimising the extreme. 74 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:50,440 Today, the blackshirt salutes fill various yearly tributes. 75 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:55,080 ALL: Presente! 76 00:05:56,280 --> 00:05:58,720 They say it's historical commemoration. 77 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:02,880 Critics call it glorification of past crimes. 78 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:04,480 ALL: Presente! 79 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:40,360 Italy's post-war constitution has one article that bans 80 00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:43,320 reforming the fascist party. 81 00:07:43,320 --> 00:07:46,760 The subsequent so-called Scelba law forbids groups 82 00:07:46,760 --> 00:07:49,160 pursuing the same anti-democratic aims, 83 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:52,200 glorifying fascism, using violence to do so, 84 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:54,320 or promoting the suppression of freedom. 85 00:07:54,320 --> 00:07:57,720 But it's only been used twice to dissolve fringe movements, 86 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:00,400 and it leaves it up to judges to decide whether acts 87 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:02,440 like the salute are a crime. 88 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:08,800 Many think the law could've been used after this - 89 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:11,560 protests over Covid restrictions that attacked 90 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:13,440 Italy's main trade union. 91 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:18,880 It was seen as out of the fascist playbook, 92 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:21,480 since the unions were targeted under Mussolini. 93 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:28,800 Forza Nuova took part that day - a fringe, hard-right party 94 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:30,320 still not banned. 95 00:08:32,040 --> 00:08:33,920 THEY CHANT 96 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:38,520 Hi. Wow. Well, this is... 97 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:41,160 Luca Castellini, its deputy leader, was jailed 98 00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:44,360 for the violence but freed pending appeal. 99 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:47,280 ..the flag up here of the Donetsk People's Republic. 100 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:48,920 Esatto, Donbas. 101 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:52,960 Donbas in Ukraine, the part of Ukraine taken by Russia 102 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:54,440 or claimed by Russia. 103 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:03,200 The Mussolini calendar. 104 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:05,640 You said this is the most sold calendar in Italy? 105 00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:10,360 "We are fascists." 106 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:12,920 "A call to arms." "We are fascists." 107 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:15,600 And then up here, this is the, of course, 108 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:17,480 the flag of the old... 109 00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:18,920 ..fascist republic. 110 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:22,840 This was also Luca Castellini... 111 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:33,480 CHEERS 112 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:37,480 ..as head of Verona's Ultras, Italy's hardcore football fans, 113 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:40,080 long a breeding ground of extremism. 114 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:42,480 He's been banned from the stadium after saying 115 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:44,760 a black player could never be truly Italian. 116 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:58,360 Do you think it's acceptable to joke about Adolf Hitler? 117 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:14,680 Would you say the same thing again? 118 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:17,880 You would repeat the same thing? 119 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:22,560 What would you say to a Jewish person, 120 00:10:22,560 --> 00:10:25,400 an Italian Jewish person, who has lost, 121 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:27,280 who lost their family to the Holocaust? 122 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:43,040 The Scelba law in the Italian constitution 123 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:46,880 prohibits what it calls the praising, the threatening, 124 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:50,040 or the use of violence, and says that that 125 00:10:50,040 --> 00:10:54,800 could allow a group to be banned, dissolved. 126 00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:58,440 Isn't that exactly what Forza Nuova did against CGdL, 127 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:01,720 against the trade union? Did they not use violence? 128 00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:04,840 Did you not use violence, you used threats, 129 00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:06,440 you targeted that union? 130 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:20,480 No government has cracked down, 131 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:23,040 but some feel Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni 132 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:25,200 is even less likely to do so. 133 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:33,040 She started in politics in the neo-fascist youth, 134 00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:35,960 interviewed aged 19 by French TV. 135 00:11:53,560 --> 00:11:56,160 The party she formed, Brothers of Italy, 136 00:11:56,160 --> 00:11:59,480 has its roots in post-war fascism, keeping the same 137 00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:02,080 tricolour flame logo. 138 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:05,720 But she has moderated and moved it away from the far-right 139 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:08,040 to the mainstream. 140 00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:11,760 She's topping polls before the upcoming European elections, 141 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:14,680 an example for Europe's nationalist politicians 142 00:12:14,680 --> 00:12:18,360 hoping she'll lead a new right-wing wave - 143 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:21,840 and hoping to emulate her success in their countries. 144 00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:25,120 And on the past, she had this message. 145 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:28,800 The Italian right has handed fascism over history 146 00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:33,280 for decades now, unambiguously condemning the suppression 147 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:35,480 of democracy 148 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:39,000 and the ignominious anti-Jewish laws. 149 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:46,160 And yet, overt political extremism has continued 150 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:47,960 to fester and flourish here... 151 00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:53,360 ..seemingly without punishment. 152 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:57,000 A Nazi birthday cake for a senior Forza Nuova figure 153 00:12:57,000 --> 00:12:58,840 drew little public reaction. 154 00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:12,720 But Meloni's supporters say the issue is with the way 155 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:16,280 in which anti-fascists have protested over the years, 156 00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:20,520 both in clashes with the other side and with police. 157 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:23,320 And so, while the Prime Minister has never directly 158 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:25,240 called herself anti-fascist, 159 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:28,120 one of her oldest political allies says it's a nuance 160 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:30,560 in Italy that needs to be understood. 161 00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:38,600 Being anti-fascist during the fascism was a very brave act, 162 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:42,120 brave for freedom, brave for democracy. 163 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:46,360 But after the falling of the fascism, 164 00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:50,120 being anti-fascist means 165 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:55,560 violence, means a lot of young students killed. 166 00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:57,880 This is why she's very clear - 167 00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:04,000 I always condemned the fascism every day of my life, 168 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:10,680 but please don't tell me to share what the anti-fascists 169 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:14,560 did after the falling of fascism. 170 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:19,440 If somebody looks from outside and they see Italy in 2024 171 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:23,160 with hundreds of people in the main second city of Italy 172 00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:26,920 doing the fascist salute, how do you think that looks? 173 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:30,840 If you are commemorating, er... 174 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:33,440 ..um, a person dead, 175 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:36,280 even if he was a fascist, 176 00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:39,360 this is not a crime, because... But should it be? 177 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:41,440 ..being a neo-fascist is another thing. 178 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:44,320 Should it be a crime to use that gesture, 179 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:47,360 to use the fascist salute in the middle of an Italian city? 180 00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:49,880 No, no, I don't think so. You are fascist 181 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:53,760 if you want to reintroduce the fascism in your country, 182 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:57,080 not if you make the fascism salute. 183 00:15:57,080 --> 00:15:59,280 That is the Roman salute. 184 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:05,240 Because the fascism is only 20 years in the Italian history. 185 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:09,520 Italian history is really bigger than 20 years 186 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:11,040 of fascism. 187 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:16,560 Every, every Prime Minister goes to the most important 188 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:20,080 Italian monument to say every year 189 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:22,280 that we condemn the fascism. 190 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:26,680 But more than this is an obsession. 191 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:40,360 And so one side of Italy sees fascism and its threat 192 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:42,640 as a ghost haunting the present - 193 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:45,840 the other as a fantasy whipped up by the left. 194 00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:54,440 Geographically, socially, politically, Italy is divided, 195 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:57,200 but it's also split in the historical narrative 196 00:16:57,200 --> 00:16:59,160 people believe and are fed. 197 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:04,760 Across Italy, the past, politically speaking, 198 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:08,360 lives on. Historical battles still part of the present. 199 00:17:08,360 --> 00:17:11,120 We've come to Bologna, which has always been at the centre 200 00:17:11,120 --> 00:17:13,080 of the fight against fascism. 201 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:17,720 Here are the names and faces of the partisans that died 202 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:21,200 defending this city from the fascists in the 1940s. 203 00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:23,280 But then it went on to 1980 204 00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:25,640 with Italy's worst terror attack, 205 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:29,600 bombings at the train station here in Bologna by neo-fascists 206 00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:31,720 that killed 85 people. 207 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:35,760 And so fascism and anti-fascism have always been at the heart 208 00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:39,240 of this city's, this country's, political lexicon. 209 00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:44,160 We're seeing things in these recent years 210 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:47,200 that are very similar to what happened at the beginning of 211 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:49,320 the regime, and at the beginning of fascism 212 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:50,720 a century ago. 213 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:55,440 Attacks on freedom of press, censorship, um, 214 00:17:55,440 --> 00:18:00,600 freedom for the LGBTQI community, 215 00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:03,960 attacks on the liberty and freedom of women 216 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:07,160 to determine what they can do on their own body. 217 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:10,280 So do you feel that the fight, the anti-fascism fight, 218 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:12,920 is still relevant today? Definitely. 219 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:15,720 I definitely believe it's very relevant. 220 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:20,800 And I also see again, to strike a parallel, the fact 221 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:24,000 that the far-right, not only in Italy but all over the world, 222 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:29,040 is sort of trying to find a scapegoat for people's 223 00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:32,880 difficulties in everyday lives by attacking the stranger, 224 00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:36,280 the person who comes from abroad, the migrant. 225 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:39,080 It's something similar again to what was done 226 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:41,760 a century ago. So to me, it's quite striking 227 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:45,280 as being very close to fascism. You know, 228 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:48,640 a new form of fascism, neo-fascism, in fact, 229 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:51,520 because it's again that same sort of tactic - 230 00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:53,600 I'll make you scared of something 231 00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:55,160 that's different to you. 232 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:58,880 It's that same sort of rhetoric of many governments in power, 233 00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:05,000 from Trump to Orban, which really singles out 234 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:08,400 a lot of battles for social justice or for civil rights 235 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:09,880 and says they're wrong. 236 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:12,560 In Germany, you could never have somebody going and making 237 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:15,360 a public declaration of support for Nazism. 238 00:19:15,360 --> 00:19:17,640 You could never show a swastika. 239 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:22,840 In Italy, there are groups that exist, plenty of them. 240 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:26,200 These skinhead groups, the far-right groups, you know, 241 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:29,240 the Roman salute. Why is this all allowed to happen? 242 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:32,480 Germany in some ways sort of had to address the past 243 00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:37,040 because there was victors and those who had lost the war. 244 00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:40,160 Italy's role was a little more ambiguous, right? 245 00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:43,360 So, first with Hitler and then surrendered. 246 00:19:43,360 --> 00:19:46,320 And there's much to be said about really grappling 247 00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:48,800 with that legacy. 248 00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:57,840 That legacy is still being debated and dissected. 249 00:19:57,840 --> 00:20:00,360 The next generation learning about the wounds 250 00:20:00,360 --> 00:20:01,840 of the past one. 251 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:45,560 History is weaponised in a country 252 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:47,800 still not at peace with its past. 253 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:53,360 Nostalgia given free rein. 254 00:20:56,480 --> 00:21:00,160 Sugar coating the bitter parts of collective memory. 255 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:06,960 The political extreme here is perhaps small, 256 00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:09,680 but they're outspoken, they're permitted, 257 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:13,280 and some of their views are seeping into the mainstream. 258 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:17,840 Camerata Benito Mussolini! 259 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:19,360 ALL: Presente! 260 00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:23,560 My name is Roberto Fiore and I'm the national secretary 261 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:26,200 of Forza Nuova. 262 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:32,160 I define myself as someone who really, who has certainly got, 263 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:37,360 some ideas, some inspiration by certain parts of fascism. 264 00:21:37,360 --> 00:21:39,360 Are you a fascist? 265 00:21:39,360 --> 00:21:43,040 If you ask me like that, I probably would say yes, 266 00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:47,720 but I have to complete the term and say I'm a revolutionary. 267 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:52,640 Italy hasn't got the intelligence and the courage 268 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:56,480 to say, well, OK, fascism was good on this and this and that, 269 00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:58,600 and maybe not good in other things. 270 00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:00,520 So as a reaction, 271 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:03,560 I really, I accept, 272 00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:07,000 I don't refuse the term of fascism. 273 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:10,520 But are you denying that the fascist regime 274 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:14,440 was violent and criminal? Yes, absolutely, I deny that. 275 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:17,720 Mussolini signed the racial laws, I mean, he deported, 276 00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:21,240 this was a regime that deported Jews to death camps, 277 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:25,320 that outlawed the opposition, that put political opponents 278 00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:27,560 in internment camps. 279 00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:30,640 Are you honestly saying that you support those measures? 280 00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:33,560 The internment camps are things that happened with the war. 281 00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:35,560 The Americans did it, the Germans did it, 282 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:37,080 the Italians did it, and so on. 283 00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:39,560 I'm talking about people who were gassed, 284 00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:42,000 who were shot, who were exterminated 285 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:45,400 for their religion. Fascism has never been accused of this. 286 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:47,920 I'm talking about fascism as a regime. 287 00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:52,560 Mussolini and all his ministers have never been tried for this. 288 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:56,200 Do you believe that this government in power in Italy 289 00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:59,760 is occupying your political space? 290 00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:03,040 No, I believe that they are freeing a lot of 291 00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:06,600 the political space that we are going to take. Why? 292 00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:09,160 One of the main points is immigration. 293 00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:11,960 We have always been against immigration. 294 00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:15,440 Meloni has always been against immigration, 295 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:18,800 sometimes with our same tone and strength. 296 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:22,920 Now, immigrants last year, this year, 297 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:26,400 have increased the number of 50%. 298 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:29,840 Where do you think Italian people are going to go 299 00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:36,000 after this betrayal of, um, original positions? 300 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:38,800 Your movement or a movement like yours would not exist 301 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:43,480 and has been banned in Greece, for example Golden Dawn, 302 00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:45,400 in Germany it would never exist. 303 00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:47,880 You would never be able to use the symbols and the slogans 304 00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:50,720 that your party uses in a country like Germany. 305 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:52,440 Why is that the case? 306 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:54,920 Because Germany has got a bigger problem. 307 00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:57,160 You think Germany's got the problem rather than Italy? 308 00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:00,520 No... Yes, because freedom is freedom. 309 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:06,680 Neither victor nor vanquished. 310 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:10,600 Italy memorialises in a way others do not. 311 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:14,600 The name, architecture and gestures of the regime 312 00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:16,000 allowed to live on. 313 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:18,080 What do you think, we have to destroy everything? 314 00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:21,880 This is the cancel culture that we don't share. 315 00:24:23,360 --> 00:24:26,800 The question is, does the ideology itself survive? 316 00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:31,440 I would say there is a silent majority that would say 317 00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:34,520 yes, yes, yes on a lot of our ideas. 318 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:37,240 And is Italy the laboratory of fascism, 319 00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:40,040 once again a political testing room? 320 00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:44,320 What should be seen as a crime, as apology of fascism, 321 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:47,200 is actually again downplayed as, 322 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:50,040 oh, no, it's just nostalgic, it's a tribute. 323 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:54,080 The worry here is not that Italy's democracy per se 324 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:56,440 is under threat, but that a governing party 325 00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:58,760 which has not severed its historical roots 326 00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:01,360 still winks to that support base. 327 00:25:01,360 --> 00:25:05,600 And that speech, notions, even policies once banished 328 00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:07,560 are increasingly normalised. 42440

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