Original subtitles

**

-When you talk about the world of comedy,

my guest today is at the top --

and I do mean top -- of conversation.

He has created, written, directed, and produced

some of the most iconic comedy shows and films ever.

Guys, I'm talking about "Anchorman," "Knocked Up,"

"Trainwreck," "The 40-Year-Old Virgin,"

"Freaks and Geeks," "Bridesmaids" --

I don't have time to name them all.

He's a friend and honestly an inspiration.

Please welcome Judd Apatow.

Oh, man. -Oh, yeah.

-Come here, come here. -Give me one of those.

-No, get in there, get in there. -Oh, you work out, you work out.

-I dowork out, Judd. -Yep.

-How are you, man? -I'm well.

-Do you think I should have went with more titles in the intro?

-You know, it gets weird, it gets weird.

-Like if I'd have kept going.

-It's enough of the memoriam video.

-Okay. -That's how you know

you've done enough. You're like, "That would be

a good, chunky memoriam video."

-I want to say thank you, of course,

for coming on, talking to me.

And this is a special episode for me

because I'm talking to an individual

that I feel from birthed the real side of creativity for me.

This is a dope moment for me

because it's a full-circle moment

where not only get to say thank you, but I truly get to

embrace you and give you flowers in real time,

so this is gonna be dope, and we're gonna drink some wine.

That's what we do here, Judd. -And we'll be drunk?

We'll be drunk during it? -Well, I may be, right?

I get a little, you know --

-You have a tequila. -I do have a tequila,

but I drink wine on here. If I drink tequila,

I wouldn't be able to finish it.

-I'm trying to help you plug the tequila.

-Well, yeah, I can do it but I can't finish the interviews.

D, come on in, D.

I wouldn't be able to finish the interviews if I did the tequila.

-I nurse drinks. -What does that mean?

-I'm one of those people, like, you'll give me,

you know, a drink, and then like six hours later,

it's down to there. -You don't drink because

you just -- you're a lightweight?

-Well, I don't need much to enjoy myself.

-I got ya, I do. What am I drinking, D?

-Mr. Hart, Mr. Apatow, lots of history here,

history dating back to the 17th century.

South African Pinot Noir from Overberg.

-Ooh! -Yes, you're gonna love this.

2022, just released. -Overberg, South African.

Come on now, come on now. [ Laughs ]

Yeah! -Bright, fresh, clean.

Lots of great acid that will carry you through.

-It will carry me through. -Enjoy.

-See that? -Enjoy your wonderful coffee.

-There you go. Judd, cheers, coffee or not.

Whether you drink wine or not, cheers.

Judd, where do I start? -I mean, I would have taken

the wine. I mean... -You would have taken it?

-I mean, I would do both. I'd do caffeine and wine.

-Well, are you gonna nurse it or are you gonna drink it?

You're more than welcome to have wine, Judd.

This is a very comfortable environment.

D, can we get a glass? Judd wants some wine.

-Yeah, we'll get both. -Let's get him a glass.

He's gonna do both. -Yes.

-See what I'm saying? This is a comfortable environment, Judd.

You want the wine, I'll get you the fucking wine.

-You always come through.

-That's what I do here. -Yeah.

-Now, here's where I'm gonna start.

I wanna go back to the real discovery of Judd Apatow for me.

My manager, Dave Becky --

this is, like, the first big audition that I felt

like I had an opportunity to have.

And Dave Becky calls me, and he's like,

"You got an opportunity to get in front of a guy

in this town that everybody wants to work with,

and right now, he has his pulse and hand on the people

and the ideas that all the studios feel they want and need.

He wants to meet you in real time."

Nice score, D.

Give him a little taste.

You don't have to pour much 'cause he's a lightweight.

-But not today.

I feel like it's all gonna change today.

-It's all gonna change. Nothing would make me happier.

-Thank you. -Nothing would make me happier

if Judd got drunk and shit. [ Laughs ]

-Let see where it goes. -Let's see.

-Let's see where it goes. Let's light the fuse.

-Dave tells me I got a chance to get in front of you.

I come out to Los Angeles, I meet you,

I audition, and you end up giving me my first pilot

and my first real experience of a booked gig in Hollywood.

And doing it, you're not aware

of how fast life happened for me.

I booked the series, or the pilot.

I came out. You guys got me, like, a rental car.

I had, like, a hotel. I'm, like, in Hollywood,

and, you know, there's per diem, so I'm spending, like, the money

that I'm getting a day, and I'm like, oh, shit.

Like, this is real, I'm going to the lot.

We're doing rehearsals, and it's me,

Amy Poehler, Jason Segel,

and you put together this amazing group of, like, talent

that nobody knew would be and was, of course, then,

but you had us in rooms rehearsing

and I remember you watching and analyzing everything.

But you embraced the world of, like, improv.

You embraced the world of the talent being creative.

My question for you is as a producer,

where most that write wanna control the words

and wanna really, like, have a true hold on what you're saying

and how you're saying it,

why have you always found so much comfort in the discovery

of what the talent is willing to bring to the table?

-Well, I'm trying to dig deep, you know,

in myself for the comedy, for the story,

for the essence of what we're talking about,

and there's a lot of collaborators.

So I always feel like if I said no to everyone else,

then it's only me.

Then you're just playing some version

of something I thought of, and I want to get to your truth.

I'm trying to figure out, you know,

what you can contribute to a character, to a story,

and, you know, I find that people have so much to give.

Why would you ever want to shut it down?

Even on that project, so much of it was about things

that yousaid. So the idea for that pilot,

which was called "North Hollywood,"

was young people trying to break into Hollywood.

-Yes. -And they live in

North Hollywood, not Hollywood. It's not going great.

And your character dreamed of being Chris Tucker.

-Yes. -But that was all from you.

-Mm-hmm. -You said, "I wanna be

in 'Beverly Hills Cop' 4 or 5."

-I wanted the movies. I wanted the life.

I wanted the big side of the comedy.

But you took those real anecdotes, of course,

embedded them into the story.

I think what you've always done well

was ground reality in whatever it was that you were creating.

And even the things that had, like, an extensive

or broad approach to the laugh,

it was still grounded within character, but --

-But you pitched your vision

for your entire career in that pilot.

-Yes. -So we would do improvs

and you would tell the other characters, "Here's my dream."

-Yes. -And it wasyour dream.

Even though you were joking, you were like,

"I wanna do 'Beverly Hills Cop' where I'm his nephew,

and he's Scooby-Doo, I'm Scrappy-Doo."

-Yeah. -Right? And you pitched

the movie of how it would look.

Like, you talked about like, "I'm like Chris Tucker

but you can understand me, you can't understand him."

And so that's, for me, amazing to watch

'cause you manifested it... -Early on.

-...early on. You had the dream and you made it come true,

but it's also funny to see a young guy filled with energy

dreaming big, 'cause it seems crazy

to go, "I'm gonna be Eddie Murphy."

-It's -- Not only does it seem crazy,

it is crazy when you're saying it around people

that may or may not believe the vision.

-Yeah. -Right? Like, when you're

saying it, it can sound ridiculous

when you're with a group of people

that are just like, "What -- huh?

You? Gonna be what? Or want to do what?"

When you're amongst a group of dreamers that are like,

"Oh, that would be cool, or you possibly can,"

it hits different. Right?

What you did was, you incentivized the dream.

And when I look at you and I look at the surrounding,

you know, you are like a portal

for discovered talent that would come,

find a voice, find confidence,

and then somehow go on to become.

When you go back, Judd, and you start to, like,

really table and look at the stars

that have come from underneath your belt,

I mean, the list is significantly long, right?

When you go -- I'll start just for me because I'm here --

you had Kevin Hart, you got Jason Segel,

you got Seth Rogen, you got James Franco,

you got Jonah Hill, you have Charlie Hunnam,

you have -- let me go down the women now --

from the "Freaks and Geeks"...

-Well, the great Linda Cardellini.

-Linda Cardellini, January Jones.

-January Jones was in "North Hollywood," the pilot.

-She was in "North Hollywood," the pilot.

-Yeah. Busy Phillips was in the --

-Busy Phillips. I mean, you literally have --

you've touched, like, a real strong portion

of what made Hollywood, like, a lot of money.

Like, that group,

those people, that talent went on to do amazing things,

but they also went on to create, to produce, to write,

and that happened underneath your umbrella.

Like, that's the part that always made me go, "Holy shit."

I remember we were working on "Undeclared,"

and Seth was a writer.

-Yeah, he was 18. -He was 18

and he was writing scripts. Like, what --

how does that happen for you,

where the business is so, like --

it's so strong on, "I need those with the résumés,

the experience, I need the people that are gonna come,

that have had success, to come here

so I can ultimately have this success"?

You were confident in those that didn't have it yet

and their ability. Like, why?

Why were you so trusting at that point in them

and just you and your process?

-I think it kinda snuck up on me.

You know, Paul Feig and I --

Paul who created "Freaks and Geeks"

and Jake Kasdan, who directed the pilot,

we would do all these auditions for "Freaks and Geeks"

and we thought it should be real people,

and so some of them might be actors,

but maybe some of them are people

who don't even think they could be actors,

that the world of Hollywood wouldn't accept them.

And we thought that's what would make it real

is if some of the actors are the type of people

you don't even see on TV.

And I think we were surprised at how amazing mot of them were,

and that made us realize, oh, you don't have to be

an Oscar winner to be incredible

if you can just catch the real spirit of somebody

and you can find an interesting person or someone

who's funny or has something to say.

And then I think later in my career,

the truth is a lot of people who were very successful

weren't available.

You know, you'd write something for someone,

and then they would either say no a lot of the time,

or, "I'm not available," and so you'd go, oh,

I guess I'll find somebody who is available.

And who is available? 21-year-old Kevin Hart.

-Yeah. -He's totally available.

He'll kill to do a good job. -Yeah.

-And there's a certain passion when you're really young

that we all don't have.

You know, that like 20-30 era, you're a crazy person.

-Yeah, yeah. -You're up all night,

punching every joke, losing your mind

trying to make it special.

And we all learn craft and we care,

but there's a moment where you're kind of insane,

and that's why you break through because the part of your brain

that's like, "It's impossible to break through"

does not exist. -Wow.

Judd, let me stop you for a second so we can take a break.

Guys, we're gonna come back with more "Hart to Heart"

after this with Judd Apatow.

-You can connect directly with people in the crowd, too.

**

-* It doesn't take me long, baby *

* Come in and just talk, no prep, make it happen *

* And I get wet like a toilet paper... *

**

**

-Judd for camera.

-God damn it, Judd, will you come on?!

I said 10 minutes. Look, it's 3:10. Let's go!

I said 10 minutes. Exactly 10 minutes.

That's how long it took. 10 minutes it took you.

Welcome back to "Hart to Heart."

We're still talking to Judd Apatow.

So, which version of you do you feel

got, like, the biggest, like,

"Oh, he's gonna be the guy"?

Like, who gave you the,

"Judd, you know what you can do?

I want you to do this with me." Like, who acted as your, like --

your bridge to the next stage and to the progression

of where you now are in your career?

Like, in that early side, where did it come from?

-Well, one thing I was thinking while you were saying that

is I think, like, when you're young,

you don't feel like you're the successful person, right?

So all your friends are a version of you.

-Okay. -You're just trying to break in,

and you believe in your friends Like, "Oh, my God.

My friend's the funniest person ever."

-Yeah. -And then as you start doing

better, I still feel like

one of those people who's trying to break in.

-Okay. -So I always feel like

that's the space that I'm in. -Okay.

-I want to stay in that space

where everyone I believe in hasn't made it yet.

So when I started, I lived with Sandler for awhile.

Rob Schneider lived across the street.

David Spade lived down the street.

I would drive over the hill to Jim Carrey's house

to help him with stuff -- jokes, sketches for "In Living Color."

And I was the one person that was like,

"I'll help you write your jokes."

See, everyone wanted to be a star,

so no one wanted to write jokes for anybody else.

-Yeah. -I thought, I need to

pay my rent, so if I can get a comedian

to give me 50 bucks a joke to help,

that's the best job in the world,

and not many comedians wanted to do that.

-Well, why were you okay with that?

Like, what did that -- you know, early on,

I mean, the ego is supposed to be present

in the beginning of the career. -Yeah. See, that's where

my lack of ego worked, 'cause I think I always thought,

well, I'm not gonna be Jim Carrey.

But I can't believe I get to sit with Jim Carrey and help him.

-Wow. -I didn't have -- I wasn't

competitive with everyone because I think in my gut,

I'm like, we all loved Bill Murray.

We loved Eddie Murphy.

I think the idea in my own head --

"oh, I'm gonna be like them" -- disappeared very quickly,

but I loved to hang.

I loved that it made people happy to get jokes.

I loved that I could get paid.

And I felt like, I love what they're doing so much,

it's so fun to see them succeed. -I was gonna say,

when you talk about Jim Carrey, you know,

in the "In Living Color" days, like, Jim Carrey's success on

"On Living Color" was astronomical.

-And to sit with Jim, and Jim's like,

"I have this idea for this character,

Vera de Milo, and it's kind of like a Conan the Barbarian

and I'm in this little bikini and I fight

in these, you know, Medieval type of things" --

-The voice.

I know exactly who you're talking about.

I know exactly -- he had the hair, like, in the two

pigtail things with -- yes.

-And so he goes, "You want to sit down and try

and write a draft with me?" So when they would shoot it,

it was literally the most exciting thing

that had ever happened in my life, and I sat in his --

-You got to see it come to life.

-And Jim is the best ever, right?

So you go, it's not just that,

it's like, there's Jim and you're helping him out.

He writes most of it 'cause he's a genius,

but you're kinda getting him going

'cause you're so enthusiastic and you make a contribution,

but then he does it and it is a 10.

And that, to me, was always even more exciting

than me having a good set.

-Look at the names you just said.

You're talking about David Spade.

You're talking about Jim Carrey.

-Well, I didn't write for Spade.

-You didn't write for Spade, but they --

just the names, I'm just saying, the environment.

-Yeah, that was the group, and also there was a feeling,

like, I think everyone's gonna bust through.

Like, I know we all just had a confidence.

It was more like we don't know when it's gonna happen,

we don't know how it's gonna happen,

but it seems like everyone's gonna work.

-Who else at that time were you writing with or for?

-One of the first people I wrote for was George Wallace.

-Wow. -And George Wallace said,

"Judd, I have two types of jokes -- stupid shit,

things I don't understand."

And then he goes, "Wait. There's a third category.

What if I was president?"

And so I sat down and wrote jokes like that,

and he's the nicest man in the world and the funniest,

the one person at The Improv that was always nice to us

when we were nobody. -George Wallace.

-Then I wrote some jokes for Taylor Negron.

I got a job writing for Dennis Miller,

who was doing a HBO pre-game show

to "Paul Simon Live in Central Park,"

and so there was a half hour Dennis Miller hosting

and talking about the history of Paul Simon.

And, you know, Dennis was unbelievable at that moment.

-Is this all word of mouth, like, "Oh, Judd's a good" --

like, how were you finding yourself --

-Well, I'm in the clubs and I know people.

My manager, Jimmy Miller -- Dennis Miller's brother --

he was helping find me work

and he would, like, tell people, like,

"You should let Judd write jokes for you."

But everyone needed jokes,

so it wasn't, like, the hardest gigs to get

because there actually weren't many people

out there attempting that.

I was reading an article where you were talking about Lucien,

who booked The Comic Strip, who told you...

-Told me -- -...quit.

-He told me -- Lucien, rest in peace, Lucien.

I don't want to say anything bad about him,

but Lucien told me that I gotta make another choice,

He said, "You got the wrong thing, man.

You need to go find you a job." His exact words to me --

"You have to go find you a regular job

because comedy is not for you."

-Which, the lesson of that, which is so important

for people, is here's a guy -- he's just a guy, right?

You know, we all have different tastes.

Like, if we had a club, we would let in different people

to be the performers, right? -Yes.

-And Lucien's somebody helped discover Rock,

helped discover Sandler,

and he's just completelywrong about you,

and I'm always, like, explaining this to people

that the best people are completely wrong all the time.

So the fact that that doesn't throw you,

or didn't throw you at the time,

I mean, that's a secret to everything, that you can go,

you know what? I'm gonna keep powering forward. He's wrong.

-You know what it was, Judd?

It didn't bother me to where I got angry.

It was actually funny to me.

It was funny that somebody felt that they were that, like --

that good at recognizing what was deemed to be talent

that they could look at you

and say if you had it or not, and that their sign-off

or stamp is the only thing that ties you to the next level.

If I don't give you that, you'll never make it.

That, like -- I literally broke it down in that context,

like, early on,

like, he really feels like because he said that,

like, I'm supposed to leave here and go get a real job,

where I made the choice of this is what I was gonna do.

I was like, well, I guess I just don't go back

to that comedy club.

-But how far in were you? How many months?

-I wasn't far. I had this weird, like --

-You may have been terrible then.

-I'm gonna tell you I was.

I was terrible but I was good. I was a terrible good.

-Well, knowing you a few years after that,

you always had an enormous amount of charisma,

and so I can't imagine how anyone would look at you

and just go, "Don't try to develop.

-I want to say thank you, of course, for that.

But wait. Let's stop here, man,

because this is too good and I don't wanna interrupt you.

We're gonna take a quick break. Let's play some bills.

We'll be right back with more "Hart to Heart"

after this -- Judd Apatow.

**

-What makes me smile or laugh every day?

You know, there's a lot of videos

I'm watching of people who treat cows like dogs.

It also helps me not eat meat

because if the cow acts like a dog, I don't want to eat him.

**

**

-Welcome back.

This is "Hart to Heart" and we're talking to Judd Apatow.

You're now the guy that's with the talent

and you're helping the talent,

and you're like, well, I'm not gonna be that

but it's dope that I get to help.

It's dope that I get to be a part of it.

And you're seeing so much success

for so many around you, right?

When did the light bulb click

that you're gonna be able to get to the golden ticket

in the sun, and yours isn't gonna come this way?

I don't need it to come this way because I now realize

that there's a big --

there's a big, big piece of success

to my pen going to the pad, to my ideas,

to the creative, and me going to wrangle up

all that I know to be a part of the things I create.

Like, what was the defining moment for you

where you said, "No, I'm gonna be, like,

a producer and a writer and a director"?

-Well, in a way it's a --

you know, you're giving up something, right,

so you go, I wanna be a comedian, I wanna be a star.

-Okay. -Right? And then you --

I was working. I was on the HBO "Young Comedians" special

and did all the talk shows and all that,

but if you're smart, you know where you stand, right?

You just go, I'm not Jim Carrey.

I'm not doing what Sandler's doing.

I'm in the clubs every night with, like,

Ellen and Paula Poundstone,

and you could feel your potential.

And so, and also I'm very young,

and then I'm writing for other people,

and I met Stiller and we created "The Ben Stiller Show,"

and suddenly I'm running the show with very little experience

with Ben and getting a real paycheck,

more than the $50 I was getting a month

before hosting at The Improv, and you feel like,

oh, the universe is steering me

and so I'm just, like, following this way

that seems to be drawing me in.

And then when that show ended, it's like, okay,

do you go back to stand-up or do you keep writing and producing?

-How long did "The Ben Stiller Show" go?

-We shot 17 episodes and that was it,

but we won the Emmy later in the year

and I got a job at "The Larry Sanders Show"

after that and worked on this cartoon, "The Critic,"

and I said, "Okay, I'll work on each show two days a week."

One's very realistic.

The other one's a cartoon. Two different styles.

James Brooks and Mike Reiss and Al Jean were

doing "The Critic," so I thought,

well, here's my mentorship,

these two shows where I'm gonna learn how do everything,

and I can't do these two shows

if every night I'm trying to get on stage at The Improv.

-So you said, "I'm gonna make the decision."

-Yeah. -"I'm gonna walk away."

You cracked the code on character-driven IP.

I wanna focus on characters.

Like, when I think about "Freaks and Geeks" --

characters. When I think about "Superbad" --

the characters, "Undeclared" -- the characters.

Yes, the concepts were all based in these locations

or these things, but it was about the people.

And when you started to, like, build on that,

it just seemed to be never-ending.

I was like, Judd is gonna do this forever

because he's just focusing on real people with real stories.

He's not coming to the table with these crazy,

crazy, crazy ideas. It starts with,

"Well, it's a couple that's going through said thing

and they both are at this age,

and life at this age gets difficult.

It's a movie about being 40. I want to display what 40 is."

And damn it, you do it, and you do it in such

a clever way where act 1, act 2, act 3 are so relatable

to those that are there,

and those who aren't there are the children of

and they get to see the kids. You cracked that code.

What was that moment?

Like, right now I got two moments out of you.

You're like, "Well, I had to give up stand-up.

I had to focus on this. When I focused on this,

I thought that it was steering me this way,

so this is what" I was gonna do.

What was the first opportunity where you said, "Oh, I got it.

This is my -- This is my lane"?

-Well, I didn't understand any of it for so long.

I was just into, like, jokes. -Okay.

-I was into comedy.

I didn't understand any of it till Shandling,

because at "The Larry Sanders Show,"

Garry was playing a talk-show host.

It was behind the scenes of a talk show.

It was on HBO, if anybody wants to see it,

and it's from the '90s.

And Garry's whole thing was exploring himself in his art

and in his work, so he knew there's a part of me

obsessed with being super famous.

He had hosted "The Tonight Show" a bunch and he noticed

how funny it was that everyone wanted this success so bad,

and he thought that the dream of success

prevented people from loving each other,

from connecting -- you know, their egos.

And that's what he wanted to explore, so it's basically,

you know, a workplace show, but it's about show business

and how it gets in the way of love.

That was his idea.

I never heard anyone talk like that.

We were writing dick jokes and, you know,

Garry's trying to reach into his soul,

and basically he's taking a part of himself

that I think he doesn't like, which is the egomaniac part.

It wasn't all of him, but it was a part of him

who wanted to be successful.

And he said, "I'm gonna satirize the part of myself

that I want to get rid of."

And it was fascinating to see him go though it,

and so by sitting in a room and watching him make choices,

that's how I learned.

It was just osmosis of, "I like this joke.

I don't like that joke. I like this story.

I don't like that story."

And then when things would happen in his life,

real things, he would put it in the show.

Dana Carvey did a sketch on "Saturday Night Live,"

where he did an impression of Garry,

and it was really, like, whiny and mean,

like, "Eh, my ass looks fat!"

it was really, like, not nice.

And he called Garry and he's like, "Don't be mad at me."

I think Smigel wrote it -- Robert Smigel.

And Garry said, "Don't worry about it.

We'll just do it on the show."

And then everyone wrote an episode

where Dana Carvey is a guest host,

does an impression of Larry Sanders,

and its about how mad Larry is at the impression.

And I thought, oh, so you dig deep into yourself.

So "This Is 40," in a way, is like Larry said.

-Insane. And, you know, it's actually kinda what makes

the "Seinfeld" of it all, or the "Curb Your Enthusiasm."

Like, when you start to look at that,

it's aligned with what you're saying there.

It's the things that you're aware of,

that self-awareness that you're able to

basically shine a light on

and bring to the table because you can get a laugh.

It's not hard to get a laugh because you know the things

that you laugh at about yourself that are pretty ridiculous.

Like, I do. And I can go to the space of self-deprecation

as often as I want because there's so much

that I know that I have that I can table

that's really ridiculous.

-Well, that's what always made me laugh about you

when you were really young, 'cause a lot of your act

was about, like, being a coward.

-Yeah. -You know, and feeling, like,

smaller than everybody and acting tough

but really not wanting to get into a fight.

-Stone-cold bitch, yeah. Stone-cold bitch, off the back.

And to date, still, but I just hide it well.

I got a little bigger inside so I'm trying to act

like it's different, but it's still the same, very much.

When you go and now you're, like --

you're making more steps, there's more forward progress,

directing comes into play, right?

What was it that clicked where you said, "Okay, well,

now I can actually start directing as well"?

Like, "I want to get behind the lens.

I'm not just gonna be a part of the story and the idea.

I wanna be -- I want to shoot it. I can see it.

I have this vision in my head,

and I'm confident I can make it work."

What was it that made you start going in that direction?

-Well, I was really afraid to direct.

I went to USC film school, and I was the worst.

I mean, my short films could not have been more embarrassing.

-Really? -I just never

thought about visuals.

As a kid, I'm like, oh, Leno's funny.

You know, Richard Pryor's funny.

-That's shocking. -I never thought, like,

oh, look at the zoom in and the push in.

What lens was that? Like, not for a second.

So I was very insecure about that,

and so at moments when I could have asked,

like at 'The Ben Stiller Show," I never did,

because I thought, what if it's terrible?

What if it cut it together

and everyone's looking in the wrong direction?

And then one day at "The Larry Sanders Show"

during the last season, Garry walked into my office

and went, "You're doing the next one."

Never talked about it before. I never asked him to do it.

It was just his instinct,

like, "I think Judd could do a good one."

And he helped me through the first one.

-When you say helped, like, was Garry very strong

with understanding, like,

you know, the camera and the world of placement...

-He knew all of it and just was on the set more

than he would be for another director

and just helped guide me through that first experience.

-How old were you?

-So that would have been -- I would have been 30.

-Wow. -And --

-Shitting bricks.

-Shitting a brick to give Rip Torn

and Jeffrey Tambor notes, and then it was an episode

where people were saying goodbye to Larry

'cause Larry was leaving the show,

and so all these different stars in the show

were making videos to say goodbye to Larry

that Hank Kingsley was shooting.

So I also had to direct Drew Barrymore and Ed Begley

and Michael Richards and -- -Amateur director,

and you're talking to big stars

and trying to figure out the best way to give notes.

You're timid, you're not that confident in...

-Terrified. -...how you're saying it.

It's, like, a very low voice and just trying --

you're saying things like, "Thank you. Please."

-And I'd read a book the night before.

David Mamet, the playwright, wrote this book about,

you know, on directing,

and his main note was, "Don't say much to the actors."

I mean, his whole theory is, like,

"Just say the words," you know? He's very simple.

But he said, "If you say one thing to an actor,

the tiniest thing, like,

'I think you'd be a little madder,""

he said, "everything they do in the entire scene

will change, so you don't have to tell them 10 things."

Right? And that helped so much because I was so scared

to know what those 10 things would be.

What's the worst note you've gotten from a director

that just, you went,

"Oh, this person doesn't know what they're talking about"?

-"Do something else."

Like what? "Anything but that."

-Yeah. -What do you mean?

"Anything but what you just did. Do something else."

All right, uh, I'll give it a go.

"No, not that.

Whatever you just chose, don't do that either.

Something else."

-So it is about, do you trust the director?

So when I direct,

and I'm trying to get a lot of options,

I'm thinking about editing.

I'm like, okay, six months from now I'm in editing.

What do I wish I had done?

What do I wish I would have gotten?

Like, this scene is so goofy.

Should I get one a little less goofy?

Or this scene is kinda serious.

Maybe I need like two hard jokes.

And that's what I'm doing. I'm, like, giving bullets

to my editor's gun so he's not, or she's not, furious at me.

-I don't want to go any further. I'm gonna stop.

I'm gonna take a quick break.

Guys, we're gonna go pay some bills.

We'll be right back with more Judd Apatow after this.

**

-Two minutes, each of you.

-Let's see how we work together. The blue, the red.

Well, no, because you did "Undeclared" in 2001.

-Yes. We're on 23 years.

-Yeah. We made it. -That's insane.

-We made it. -That's insane.

You think about that, it gets scary, actually.

It really does. What up, guys?

Let's do it. Let's knock this out.

it's gonna be great. -Have fun.

**

**

-Welcome back to "Hart to Heart."

We're still taking to Judd Apatow, the legend.

What movie presented the biggest, like,

piece of pressure for you? -For me?

-Yes, when you got, like, the budget, the money, etc.,

which one was like, "Oh, shit"?

-Well, "The Cable Guy" because I rewrote someone else's

script for that and was the producer, and at the time,

it was a big deal 'cause Jim Carrey was paid $20 million.

It was most anyone had ever been paid.

And they gave us $40 million to make the movie,

and they reallydid not want us to go a penny over.

So anything that we did that went over

was treated like we were millions over,

and so it was very combative during the shoot.

-And this is at what stage in your career?

-This is the first movie I've ever fully produced,

or the second movie.

I did a movie, "Heavyweights," before that,

so I did a kids' movie and then "The Cable Guy."

And I don't really know what I'm doing,

and then Ben Stiller's directing and he's fantastic

but very ambitious to make it great.

It's like "Severance."

I mean, he is gonna push it to be as strong as it can be,

and he's giving me marching orders to go get him stuff.

"I need a helicopter for this.

I need 100 more extras for this."

And I have to go to the head of production at Sony

and ask for it, and he's like,

"You don't have the money for that."

And I would push, and then I remember

once he said, "We are not the Columbia Bank of Judd,"

or something like that, like, screaming at me.

-Did you guys end up going over?

-Not much. I think maybe the movie cost $42 million.

-Okay. -Which, you know,

for a movie is not a terrible thing.

And although thought of as a movie that didn't do well,

it grossed $100 million around the world.

-And ultimately one of the best comedies ever done.

-And held up, we hope. -1,000%.

-But for me as a young person,

how do I have these conversations

and have them not be ugly and combative?"

And after that, I really worked hard on budgets

the rest of my career

because of the amount of pain and stress

knowing we didn't have enough -- enough time for post.

Like, oh, I can't ever be in that situation

where we don't have what we need.

-Well, this is the part that nobody knows.

Like, this is the part of the business

that is overlooked by fans, right?

And by the way, it should be. Fans, you don't need to know.

-They don't want to know the cost of the lighting package.

-You don't need to know

how crazy the behind-the-scenes work is

when it actually comes to making a movie.

-Oh, my God. We were at Medieval Times

shooting a scene with Jim Carrey and Matthew Broderick

on horses, right, trying to knock each other

off of horses with the long poles,

and we're just not done and it's 2:00 in the morning

and we're not done. Like, we need --

we're gonna shoot until sunrise. We're in triple overtime.

And the guy says, "Shut it down right now.

Shut it down." And in my head I thought,

we don't even have a sequence.

And I'm like, "What do you want me to do?

I can't stop." And I took the battery out of my phone

and threw it 100 feet away and didn't tell anyone.

They're like, let's just keep going.

-By the way, by the way,

those are the stances that you have to take as a producer.

It's like when you do feel like you have to take a stance,

those are defining moments for you and your career

because it's like, I ultimately want to give you the best movie

that you can have, and you're not allowing me

to do that by standing in my way so if you don't let me do this,

I'm gonna hand in this and it's gonna be shit

and then, ultimately, I'm gonna have a double problem

for going over budget here and handing in shit.

I would much rather go over budget,

get the stuff I need, and then give you something that's good

so that I feel like I set you up

for the biggest piece of success.

And sometimes those fights are necessary,

but that's what I feel producing is.

Producing, to me, is managing people.

-Well, 11 years later,

I have to go to the same guy.

I haven't worked with him for 11 years,

and we're gonna go make "Superbad."

-Oh, my God. -And "Superbad" is a $18 million

movie, all in, and I have to go kiss the ring

and apologize for that 11 years before,

for throwing the phone and being a pain in the ass,

I just say, "I think I know how to do it better

so we won't be in that position."

But it really -- like, people said, like,

"You better go talk to him," 'cause he was still mad.

-It's a great story. Strong, really strong.

All right, let's stop here. Let's go pay some bills.

We'll be right back with more "Hart to Heart" after this.

**

-Wait, remember that story

where you were at the Comedy Store?

You'd just moved to town. -Yes.

-You were walking out front. -Yes.

-Then a car pulled up and said,

"Who are you representing?" -Yeah.

-And what did you say? -Well... [indistinct]

If you're smart, you tell them, "My mom and my dad."

If you're smart. -And they bought that.

-My mom and my dad, that's who.

Uh, hopefully I'm representing them well.

**

**

-Welcome back.

I'm still talking to Judd Apatow,

and we're talking about the business in depth.

Was there a moment

where Judd Apatow got a little, like --

did you ever get a little, you know --

-Cocky? -Yeah, like, "I'm the shit"?

-Well, there were certainly moments that I enjoyed,

and they're very simple moments,

Not cocky moments, just, you know, going to The Grove

and there's a line around the block for "Knocked Up,"

and you're like, that is so crazy.

-Wow. -How many people are here?

I mean, there's moments of joy and pulling it off,

but I think it's so hard to make any of them work

and then it's so hard to get anyone to go

that it always keeps you off balance.

It keeps you from being cocky

because one succeeding does not help the next one succeed.

So you're always terrified of the next one.

-The cockiness, I think, has to come for you to you.

Like, I don't believe in the cocky to the world.

I don't believe in that, right?

Like, I think the idea of cockiness --

it's a self thing, like, for a moment

when you get to close the door,

you walk in home and you close the door,

and you just accomplished the craziest thing ever,

in that moment when you're by yourself,

"I'm the motherfuckin' shit! I just did it that!

I can't believe I" --

like, that moment, you're by yourself.

Let me get this out, 'cause I gotta keep it contained

and I gotta keep it in 'cause I don't ever want to

come off ungrateful. I don't ever want to seem

like I'm not aware, 'cause it can stop at any point in time.

-Yeah, I'm trying to think, because, you know,

life tends to balance you out.

So when you -- -Oh, I know.

-Yeah, right?

You're like, things happen, you know --

-Oh, I've been balanced. Yeah. -Yeah.

This is what Denzel was talking about

where the devil comes for you.

[ Laughter ]

But I understood what he meant, which is, you know --

I remember I was editing "The 40-Year-Old Virgin"

and I found out my mom had cancer.

And it was this moment of, "Oh, my God. It works.

This is gonna work."

And then it just flattens the whole thing out.

And then you just, you know, you just keep doing the work,

you know, and in almost every moment,

there's something, or next one.

Like, you might be finishing a movie,

and the next one you're so worried about

that you actually don't enjoy the success of the one

that just came out because

the script's not good on the next one.

-Was that your darkest moment in your career,

finding out that your mom had cancer and while doing,

or being a part of, like, a production?

Do you feel like that was your lowest?

-She passed, but it was four very, very difficult years.

And so there'd be all these just strange moments on that ride.

So, and certainly I guess, you know,

when you look at -- that's like 2004 to 2008

where I was doing a lot of stuff,

but at the same time maybe completely traumatized by that,

so I'm doing the work,

but I'm not necessarily feeling fantastic

because we're all struggling with that.

-Did you ever get to a point, a breaking point,

where you were thinking about, "You know what?

Maybe this is it for me.

Maybe I've kinda -- Maybe I've kinda done

all that I'm going to do because I'm at a point where

I don't want to do it anymore."

-It was kinda more the opposite,

which is when I wrote "Funny People,"

which was about Adam's character being sick,

it was a way to express all the things

I had gone through with my mom,

which I hadn't talked about when the movie came out.

And so sometimes you look back, you know, 15 years,

and you just go, "What the hell was I thinking?

Why did I write that?"

I didn't even notice it so much at the time,

but that was the only way for me to get through

was to try to write a character

that was learning lessons from it,

that was making the connections from it.

Like, what are the positives that you could take?

How could you survive something like that?

And you're not even doing it for work or creativity.

It's almost like your mind's like, this is the only way

you're gonna get through is to find a way to express this.

-What you've also done that I'm extremely envious of --

you found a way to, like, take the talent of you

and merge that talent with the talent of wife

and co-create and make things move forward

from a household perspective.

Leslie starring in your movies I think is the dopest shit ever.

I think her star and that star shining brighter over the years

through the produced by or written by

or directed by her husband,

I think there's no better sign of alignment

in the business than that.

Where did the decision come from

to, like, collab and work together?

-Well, we met on "The Cable Guy,"

and then, you know, there was discussion of like,

"Should we do this? Would this be fun?

Would it not be fun?" And we waited a while

before we did it again,

and then we did it on "The 40-Year-Old Virgin"

with this big sequence where's she's Nicky the drunk driver.

You know, so it's the sequence where Steve makes the mistake

of thinking, "Oh, if you want to get with a woman,

find a drunk woman," and then everything goes wrong.

She crashes the car. She vomits on him.

And Leslie was just so riotously funny.

-She was funny. -And how she figured out

how to do that was she went out with Seth,

and Seth, who was in the movie

and also one of the producers of the movie --

they went out, and Seth was gonna videotape Leslie drunk

so Leslie could see what she's like drunk.

And they went out -- -Such in-depth work.

Such in-depth work. -And Leslie wanted to see it,

and afterwards Leslie came home and she watched the video of it,

and she's like, "Oh, my God.

I always thought I was, like, adorable and cute,

but I think I'm really annoying when I'm drunk."

-Oh, my God. -And she created

this incredible character that was just so far beyond

what you would assume that would be,

and it became kind of an iconic thing.

And then it was just like steps,

like, what else could be collaborate on?

So a movie like "Knocked Up,"

you know, most of it is fabricated.

Some of it is influenced by things we went through

or things our friends went through.

But, you know, it's created together.

We're talking about it.

You know, she's telling me ideas for scenes and attitudes.

And that's why it works, because it's a true collaboration.

And then "This is 40" was the largest extension of us

talking about our lives and where we were at

and then creating that world. -Yeah, yeah.

Wait a second. Just stop right here.

We gotta pay some bills, guys. We'll take a quick break.

We'll be right back with Judd Apatow after this.

**

-That is good wine, by the way. -I told you. Cheers.

-Like, for real. -Cheers.

**

**

-Welcome back to "Hart to Heart."

So, Judd, when you go

and you start to go touch all of the people

that came from the wheel -- you know, the wheel of Judd,

that thing -- and you see all of these people now sitting

at the highest levels of stardom,

what are the relationships like today?

Are you still actively in touch with the bulk?

Or is it, you know, sporadic conversations here and there?

Just, where's the friendships, or where are they not at today?

-Well, you know, for some of them,

we talk all the time. For some, it's just like

when you bump into people.

For me, I'm so proud of everyone.

You know, I feel I get way too much credit,

because I'm a scout in a lot of ways, right?

So I'm a giant comedy fan so I might see a young person,

maybe it's even, like, a 16-year-old person

when we're doing "Freaks and Geeks,"

and I think, as a fan of comedy, I wanna watch that person.

-Okay. -Or maybe they get a little

older and it's as simple as

if a movie starred Seth, I would go.

-Okay. -And I'd be excited.

-Okay. -And so it's all as a fan,

and then it's, what can I do to help make that happen?

What contribution can I make?

Sometimes I make a big contribution.

Sometimes, like, they don't need much at all.

But the thing that connects it all is, like,

all those people I want to see.

And I think, like, when I was a kid, I loved Steve Martin.

I think they're all Steve Martin or they're all Gilda Radner.

So the fact that Seth and Evan direct

and John Daley directs and writes...

-Insane. -...and, you know, how many

people, like, whatever, Jason Segel

creates TV shows and directs things.

That's what's exciting, is that

a simple encouragement that I got --

and I'm not doing anything that interesting,

other than saying, "If you want to do really good stuff,

you're probably gonna have to write it for yourself."

-Yeah. -No one's gonna hand you

a script and it's perfect. They know you.

They know all your gifts. Like, you're gonna have to

kinda do it yourself.

How many people took that advice and pulled it off --

that's what's most exciting, what they did.

-The fact that Seth was directing before he was 28,

the fact that Seth was writing --

like a real writer on television series --

and the fact that Jason Segel was writing

and developing his own series and movies,

like, I watched them, Judd.

I was right there with them.

So I remember going over to Jason's house

and Jason was like, "Kev, read some of these scenes with me.

It's from this thing I was writing."

And I was like, "What do you mean, you're writing?"

"I'm working on this TV show."

Jason had bought Final Draft. -Yeah.

-I remember I left Jason's house --

this is a true story -- Jason Segel.

So for our viewers here,

Judd made Jason and myself live together

when we were doing "North Hollywood."

-Yes. -You're gonna love this story.

And living with Jason,

two things I gravitated towards instantly.

Jason had a huge Mac,

and on that computer, every day Jason was writing,

and I would, like, be in the living room

and he would ask me did I think things were funny, etc.

And I remember Final Draft, and I was like, "What is that?"

He was like, "Final Draft. it basically helps you

with the structure of what a script is supposed to be.

So all of this stuff, I just have to make sure

that I'm telling my story correctly

but my cut-to's and interior, exterior --

this gives it all to you.

It's the program you're just supposed to have."

I said, "So Final Draft is what you need?"

"If you're trying to write, Kev, you gotta get Final Draft."

I went out and bought Final Draft.

I didn't even have a fucking computer.

I didn't have a computer, Judd. I had no place to put it.

I spent $300-and-something on Final Draft,

and I came home and I was like, "Jason, so I got it.

Like, what do I do now?

Do I set it up on your computer?"

He's like, "You gotta get your own computer."

I had to go buy a Dell, and without knowing,

I just used to start writing shit.

I didn't know what the fuck I was writing,

but I was writing it because Jason was doing it

and Seth were doing it, and they were doing it

because you were doing it,

so naturally I got into the habit early on of creating

because I was in an environment where that's all they did.

Amy would come over and we would all hang out,

we were all laughing and punching up people's scripts --

not sold, but the idea that we would sell,

or they would sell, is what we were all focused on.

That circle, that bond -- I'll never forget it,

I'll never forget when I got the privy --

like, it was a privilege of being a part of that

because now I look back and look at all of us.

-Yeah. -Like, it worked.

Your suggestions and your information --

it was used at the highest level from every single source.

There's not a bigger compliment to who you are

and to what you have done, man. And this moment, Judd,

I'm telling you for me, it's about --

it's about flowers in real time.

And I thank you.

I thank you for my first opportunity.

I thank you for my first real audition.

I thank you for my first pilot.

I thank you for my first introduction into Hollywood.

I don't have any of it without Judd Apatow's simple,

"I saw this guy's tape. Can I meet him?"

That's all you fucking said. "Can I meet him?"

And after meeting me, you followed through,

and although all those things didn't go and become,

you put me in this pilot, "40-Year-Old Virgin," the cameo

becomes one of the biggest cameos,

something that the notoriety I got from it expanded.

-It's everywhere now. Isn't it, like, a TikTok?

-If people understood how you did it...

"Judd, so what do you want me to do?"

"Just, we'll figure it out. Go Kev, and you and Romany..."

-Well, I certainly didn't pitch any of those ideas.

-You said go.

-If anyone thought I wrote that, I would be cancelled instantly.

-That was all me and Romany. It was all me and Romany.

But it came from you just going, "We'll figure it out, Kev.

Just go. I think it will be a great thing."

-Yeah. -But just your energy, man,

your energy and understanding and support to the young talent,

to the opportunity for the young talent --

it's unmatched.

And your flowers are ones that,

dude, they'll forever be given.

And this is just my version of it.

So I thank you for coming on "Hart to Heart,"

I thank you for talking to me,

and I thank you for talking about shit

that people ultimately just need to hear --

your story, your journey.

Ain't none of this shit easy.

-Well, I'm completely blown away by everything

that you've done, and even from when you were very young,

we were always like, "Kevin is the funniest."

And to see what you turned it into is remarkable.

You have way more energy than me,

and I don't have vegan restaurants.

But there's still time for me. -Yes.

-But I'm so glad to see what you manifested it into

and how you're giving it back

and how much you care about giving it back,

because we all know and we watch everyone --

there's very few people even talking

about helping other people. -Yes.

-That's why what you do really sticks out, you know?

It's so fantastic that you do it but it's also so fascinating

that so few people say, "Now that I'm here,

let me just pull everybody up with me."

-Well, I am a product of my environment,

and you were the first real example

of a dope creative environment,

so I'm glad I got to tell you that in real time,

and I'm glad I got to do it on a platform like this.

-And I'm glad I wasn't wrong about you.

-There you go. -What if --

-This would have been fucked up. -What if you were a disaster?

-Yeah, whole interview would have been shit.

Yeah, whole interview would have been shit if I was a mess.

-You were just back in Philly. It just did not work.

-He fucked it up. [ Laughter ]

He went back to the block. -Yeah.

-Guys, this is "Hart to Heart." This is Judd Apatow.

Judd, you're fucking amazing. Thank you, man.

-Love you, buddy.

-This was so good.

So good and honest.

-Yeah, that was fun. -So honest.

No bullshit. Like, you're talking about Jim

and, dude, Ben Stiller, Garry, like...

**

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