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Would you like to inspect the original subtitles? These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated: 1 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:04,119 I couldn't see her any more. I couldn't see the... 2 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:05,559 ..things that made her HER. 3 00:00:05,560 --> 00:00:07,439 They want to switch off her machines, 4 00:00:07,440 --> 00:00:08,959 and we want to keep them on. 5 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:11,239 They say she's in a lot of pain! She is still your child! 6 00:00:11,240 --> 00:00:12,959 Yes! Yes, she is! 7 00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:14,559 So you just left her and me? 8 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:16,599 That makes it sound like I abandoned you. 9 00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:18,159 Yeah, cos you did. 10 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:22,159 However you feel about what your parents are doing, it's not about 11 00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:24,399 picking sides. Of course it is. 12 00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:26,239 And I'm on Marnie's side. 13 00:00:26,240 --> 00:00:29,159 We believe we can suggest a bias in the treatment Marnie has received 14 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:30,719 from Samantha Woodham. 15 00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:32,279 She perforated an artery. 16 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:34,399 It sounds pretty deadly to me. 17 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:36,639 Marnie, she's complicated. 18 00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:40,439 But... you know, she's, er, she's joyous. 19 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:42,199 I really miss you. 20 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:45,239 Do you think you'll win, Nicci? Any change in her condition? 21 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:46,880 Can I just go and see my daughter? 22 00:00:48,160 --> 00:00:49,960 Can't we do better than this? 23 00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:55,399 This programme contains some strong language and some scenes which some viewers may find upsetting. 24 00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:56,760 BABY GURGLES. 25 00:00:56,761 --> 00:00:58,119 Yeah! You like that, do you? 26 00:00:58,120 --> 00:00:59,720 HE CHUCKLES. 27 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:02,479 Hey. 28 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:04,479 She finds wallpaper funny. 29 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:07,639 Does she? Are you sure that's OK? 30 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:10,959 The steam and... Ah, I think it's fine. 31 00:01:10,960 --> 00:01:12,959 Yeah? Yeah. 32 00:01:12,960 --> 00:01:15,759 Should have probably done it before she got here. 33 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:17,079 She loves it. 34 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:20,119 Look at that smile. I was thinking maybe a picnic. 35 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:22,239 Ah, it's a bit cold. 36 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:26,719 Yeah, we'll just wrap up, won't we? We'll wrap up. 37 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:28,599 You going to make sandwiches? 38 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:30,879 I'm not going to make sandwiches, sexist! 39 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:33,599 We'll buy sandwiches. Ah. 40 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:35,719 I'll get you a sausage roll if you're lucky. 41 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:37,260 Oh, I'm in! 42 00:01:37,261 --> 00:01:38,799 THEY LAUGH. 43 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:42,719 BABY GURGLES Ah! She finds that funny too. 44 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:44,720 Ah, no, no! Ah! 45 00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:02,959 RADIO: ..factors at play 46 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:05,999 when the life of a young child is at stake. 47 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:08,119 Looking at the papers this morning, 48 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:09,399 this makes the front page 49 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:10,759 on nearly every single... 50 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:16,839 ANDREW SIGHS. 51 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:18,559 Ready? 52 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:19,600 Yeah. 53 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:25,640 It's going to be OK. Yeah, yeah. 54 00:02:30,920 --> 00:02:32,920 Mint? Ah, I just brushed my teeth. 55 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:35,960 You need a mint, mate. 56 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:48,480 You keep them. 57 00:02:56,200 --> 00:02:59,199 Nicci! Nicci! Nicci! Nicci! 58 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:03,359 REPORTERS CLAMOUR. 59 00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:06,160 We're just going to go straight in, thank you very much. 60 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:29,919 Pre-match huddle? 61 00:03:29,920 --> 00:03:31,799 Yeah. OK. 62 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:33,519 A rundown of who's here. 63 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:37,199 Francesca Camara, representing the hospital and Dr Samantha Woodham. 64 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:40,279 She's very good. Beatrice Shrigley, working with. 65 00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:43,519 Greg Richardson and the Children and Family Legal Services team. 66 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:46,359 Representing Marnie. Yeah, we met Mr Richardson. 67 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:47,759 Good lawyers, but so are we. 68 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:50,079 We're going to save Marnie's life, Mrs Lloyd. 69 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:56,440 We're going to do something special here today. 70 00:03:58,360 --> 00:03:59,840 Yeah, good. 71 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:08,559 How long have you been Marnie's paediatric consultant? 72 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:11,479 I have observed Marnie in PICU for close to seven years. 73 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:13,519 She's a patient I know very well. 74 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:16,920 And will you tell us what you think the best treatment is for her now? 75 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:24,679 I am sorry to say that I think we should stop all treatments. 76 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:28,679 I believe the life-sustaining treatments we are currently 77 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:32,839 giving are causing her to suffer without any prospect of helping her. 78 00:04:32,840 --> 00:04:35,919 How would you describe Marnie's current interaction with the world? 79 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:39,399 She will never, in my medical opinion, 80 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:41,919 leave ventilated breathing support. 81 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:44,399 She shows little response to stimuli 82 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:46,559 and her brain scans show irreversible damage. 83 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:49,479 So her conscious experience? 84 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:50,719 In my judgment, 85 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:54,400 right now, she has very little, if any, conscious experience. 86 00:04:56,400 --> 00:04:58,159 No further questions. 87 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:09,879 How many children have you treated like Marnie? 88 00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:14,079 No case is alike, but I have treated 89 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:17,479 maybe 20 or 25 children with severe muscular dystrophy. 90 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:20,599 How many end up in a situation where, in your opinion, 91 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:23,679 treatment can no longer be of use? 92 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:25,919 I couldn't tell you that exactly. 93 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:27,600 How many have died in your care? 94 00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:30,759 Six. 95 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:33,519 The deterioration in each case was similar to what we've seen 96 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:34,599 with Marnie? 97 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:39,158 No cases are alike. And Marnie's specific condition is unique. 98 00:05:39,159 --> 00:05:42,759 In fact, as you say, it is as yet undiagnosed. 99 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:45,679 As happens frequently with neuromuscular disorders. 100 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:49,399 But as it is undiagnosed, how can you be 100% sure that 101 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:52,119 continuing treatment is futile? 102 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:54,799 I am as certain as I can be. 103 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:56,158 And if I were to tell you 104 00:05:56,159 --> 00:05:59,080 that there are doctors who believe they can treat Marnie? 105 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:05,159 Marnie's conscious experience, another complicated area, is it not? 106 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:06,519 Yes. 107 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:08,119 Have there been examples, 108 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:12,439 to your knowledge, of children with severe brain damage who recover? 109 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:15,679 I do not believe it is likely there will be any 110 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:17,679 miracle improvement. 111 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:20,559 Of course, you must have your beliefs. 112 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:22,880 Let us discuss pain. 113 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:26,679 Ventilation itself isn't painful, is it? 114 00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:29,239 No, but suctioning is very unpleasant. 115 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:30,599 And how often does that happen? 116 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:31,959 Several times a day. 117 00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:35,239 And if Marnie has very little, if any, conscious experience, 118 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:38,399 in your opinion, how would she feel pain 119 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:41,039 in these isolated suctioning incidents? 120 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:44,279 There are autonomic responses from Marnie 121 00:06:44,280 --> 00:06:46,599 that do, I'm afraid, suggest pain. 122 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:48,999 You cannot have it both ways, Dr Woodham. 123 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:51,559 Either she doesn't have a conscious experience, 124 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:54,239 in which case she isn't in pain, or she does. 125 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:56,359 You're wrong. 126 00:06:56,360 --> 00:07:00,279 We have seen a series of reactions, from spasms to 127 00:07:00,280 --> 00:07:05,119 changing heart rates, which do suggest that while her conscious 128 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:10,920 experience is extremely limited, her pain response is still there. 129 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:20,319 Let me take you back to 2016, if that's OK? 130 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:22,599 Sure. 131 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:24,759 May 24th. 132 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:26,959 Marnie presented with an infection. 133 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:30,399 Yes. Um, I would need to consult my notes. 134 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:33,639 You had to put in a central venous catheter. 135 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:35,080 A central line. 136 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:38,158 Yes. And it went wrong. 137 00:07:38,159 --> 00:07:40,279 You perforated an artery. 138 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:42,919 Which led to distal ischemia. Yes. 139 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:45,959 You needed to call in a vascular surgeon to repair the damage. 140 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:49,879 This incident was referred up to the consultants' group and it was seen 141 00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:53,039 to be an unfortunate complication of a competently performed procedure. 142 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:55,759 "Competently performed"? 143 00:07:55,760 --> 00:07:58,319 How can something be "competently performed" 144 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:01,159 when it almost leads to ischemia? 145 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:03,480 That is what they concluded. 146 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:08,000 We are human beings. 147 00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:14,199 And... I am sorry it happened... 148 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:17,480 ..and I am grateful there was no damage to Marnie in the long term. 149 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:23,080 What do you know of unconscious bias in the medical profession? 150 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:26,959 Well, it's something that we're all concerned with. 151 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:29,999 A doctor in a raft is told only seven people can 152 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:32,639 survive on the rations they have. 153 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:34,999 He has to make a decision as to who to save. 154 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:38,959 He or she. I do beg your pardon, Dr Woodham. 155 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:42,239 How does he or she make the judgment? 156 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:44,559 We do not ration care in this country. 157 00:08:44,560 --> 00:08:47,039 You're denying that during Covid there was rationing of care 158 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:49,279 for disabled people? There was a prioritisation. 159 00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:51,120 Who do you prioritise? 160 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:58,199 Now, we happen to have some correspondence 161 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:00,399 that was passed to us at very late notice. 162 00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:01,599 My Lady! 163 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:04,039 I apologise enormously, My Lady. It was this morning. 164 00:09:04,040 --> 00:09:06,159 I emailed the court as soon as I received it. 165 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:08,080 I received no email. 166 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:11,480 Do you have copies for the others? Yes, My Lady. 167 00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:19,479 My Lady, we have no means of verifying this document. 168 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:21,320 We can ask the witness. 169 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:25,080 Did this email come from you? 170 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:36,040 How did you get this? 171 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:40,799 Yes. 172 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:42,839 Then I'll allow it. 173 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:46,439 This is a correspondence between you and a bed manager about 174 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:51,119 how to move people out of PICU in preparation for the Covid outbreak. 175 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:54,079 Dated February 2020. 176 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:59,679 They ask you what they should do about bed 16 and you reply, 177 00:09:59,680 --> 00:10:02,599 "Bed 16 shouldn't be there, 178 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:05,999 "the parents have been clinging to hope without there being any." 179 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:08,399 I was expressing a medical opinion. 180 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:11,600 I... regret how it sounds. 181 00:10:14,560 --> 00:10:18,719 Do you believe that sometimes, for patients, as a doctor, that the best 182 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:20,999 thing to do is to let them die? 183 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:23,679 That was another child and another set of circumstances. 184 00:10:23,680 --> 00:10:25,639 It was a busy time. 185 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:27,160 Lots of people to save? 186 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:30,159 Yes. 187 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:31,919 How irritating, then, to have a bed 188 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:35,479 taken up with this disabled child which determined parents 189 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:37,039 are there to protect. 190 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:40,119 I do think the sanctity of life is important. 191 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:44,879 But sometimes, as doctors, we're unable to preserve a meaningful 192 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:48,959 life, and in that case it is cruel to prolong the dying process 193 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:51,399 with treatments that do not benefit them. 194 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:55,679 Where is that stated? Is that in the good medical practice guidelines, 195 00:10:55,680 --> 00:10:57,319 as laid out by the GMC? 196 00:10:57,320 --> 00:10:58,599 My Lady! 197 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:01,159 Mr Frederick, your questioning here is inappropriate, 198 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:03,399 as I believe you're well aware. 199 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:06,919 Dr Woodham, you do not need to answer but you may if you wish. 200 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:08,520 Mm. 201 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:17,160 Marnie is in pain. 202 00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:22,639 She's unable to communicate, 203 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:24,600 and I am no longer helping her. 204 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:29,480 I am just prolonging her death. 205 00:11:30,680 --> 00:11:35,079 When the other doctors decided that you had had 206 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:39,279 an unfortunate complication in perforating Marnie's artery 207 00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:43,079 and almost leaving her with another disability, 208 00:11:43,080 --> 00:11:44,879 on what grounds did they do so? 209 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:46,279 Sorry? 210 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:49,840 On what grounds did they make their judgment on you? 211 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:57,279 The grounds of, um... I'm sorry, I... 212 00:11:57,280 --> 00:11:59,599 They gave you the benefit of the doubt, Dr Woodham. 213 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:02,919 Just as you have failed to give Marnie the benefit of the doubt. 214 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:06,759 No. In fact, and instead, what Marnie has faced 215 00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:11,159 every day in your care is your prejudice that this little girl 216 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:14,919 and her little life are taking up space in your precious PICU. 217 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:16,320 No. 218 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:24,479 I am sorry that you're getting emotional. 219 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:26,239 That was not my intention. 220 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:29,680 But there is, of course, a lot of emotion attached to this case. 221 00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:37,239 She is my patient and I have always given her the finest care. 222 00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:38,840 In your opinion. 223 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:42,040 No further questions. 224 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:49,839 You doing OK? 225 00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:51,959 Great. 226 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:53,560 You've had no further trouble? 227 00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:56,400 I'm fine. 228 00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:02,519 That was a good morning for us. 229 00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:03,960 I'm sure it feels like that. 230 00:13:07,680 --> 00:13:12,200 PHONE BUZZES. 231 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:35,799 Hey. 232 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:37,919 Hey there. 233 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:39,519 Mind if I...? 234 00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:41,320 Uh, no. Not at all. 235 00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:47,199 Is it allowed? 236 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:48,560 It's allowed. 237 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:55,439 How do you think it's going? Honestly? Yeah. 238 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:56,999 Horribly. 239 00:13:57,000 --> 00:13:58,999 These things are usually... 240 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:02,600 ..not collegiate, but there's a certain level of respect. 241 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:14,440 However this turns out, look after yourself, OK? 242 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:19,359 Ah, yeah, it's just an egg stain. 243 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:20,879 Sorry? 244 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:22,600 On the tie. It's just an egg stain. 245 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:26,559 I know what drinking looks like. 246 00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:28,320 I know what drinking smells like. 247 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:34,239 Have you got any lunch? 248 00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:35,720 Er, no. 249 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:39,599 OK. I can get some more. 250 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:42,840 What? No, no, no, no. You can, and you will. 251 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:52,360 My favourite flavour. Cheese and onion. 252 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:56,520 My favourite. Good. 253 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:04,199 Mr Lloyd. 254 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:06,440 Would you consent to a few questions from me? 255 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:09,720 - I've... - CLEARS THROAT 256 00:15:09,723 --> 00:15:12,159 I've nothing to hide. Thank you. 257 00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:16,319 Your wife gave up her job when Marnie was diagnosed? 258 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:18,399 And I'm very grateful for that. 259 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:20,759 Rather she kept herself focused on Marnie. 260 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:23,799 Well, her job wasn't very understanding. 261 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:26,039 You kept working? 262 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:30,239 Yes. Uh, we needed the money. 263 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:33,279 Do you remember who was earning more when Marnie was born? 264 00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:34,879 Your wife or yourself? 265 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:36,999 Er, she was. 266 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:40,639 So, a better economic decision might have been for you to give up 267 00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:43,280 your job and for your wife to keep on going. 268 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:48,479 You're right. 269 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:51,440 Can you explain why, then, you were the one to keep your job? 270 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:57,159 To be honest, the question wasn't asked. 271 00:15:57,160 --> 00:15:59,199 What sort of hours do you work, Mr Lloyd? 272 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:01,359 9.30 till 6.00 most days. 273 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:04,999 And your business, accountancy, has grown since Marnie was born? 274 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:06,199 Yes. 275 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:09,920 So, occasionally you have meetings in the evenings, at weekends? 276 00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:15,359 I... have always... um... 277 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:18,399 ..have made a lot of time for my family. 278 00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:20,919 So any suggestion you've buried yourself in work... 279 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:24,199 My Lady! I am not here to represent Mr Lloyd, but as he's 280 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:27,999 representing himself and perhaps unused to the court situation, 281 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:30,559 I do feel obliged to say these questions do feel 282 00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:32,399 unnecessarily intrusive. 283 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:33,840 Agreed. 284 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:41,760 Would you consider yourself a good father, Andrew? 285 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:48,719 I'd hope... that I'm a good dad. 286 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:51,479 I don't believe this line of questioning is fruitful. 287 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:55,239 I'm not going to be helped by intrusive questions of Mr Lloyd. 288 00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:57,839 If you have any questions about Marnie's quality of life, 289 00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:00,279 please ask them. Apologies, My Lady. 290 00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:03,919 I'm not looking to be intrusive, just drawing a picture 291 00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:06,239 as to the family dynamic, so as to 292 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:10,719 get a... a better sense of who might best represent Marnie's interests. 293 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:14,439 Mr Frederick, I have no doubt that everyone involved in this case 294 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:15,959 firmly believes that they are 295 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:19,680 putting Marnie's best interests first. It's not a competition. 296 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:28,759 Parenting a child with Marnie's needs must be extremely trying. 297 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:32,359 There are difficulties but, er... 298 00:17:32,360 --> 00:17:34,879 ..immense pleasures, too. 299 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:37,279 She's a beautiful girl. 300 00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:39,960 Has the pressure ever overwhelmed you? 301 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:43,359 Frequently. 302 00:17:43,360 --> 00:17:45,039 There have been moments 303 00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:48,519 when you have made mistakes looking after her, haven't there? 304 00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:53,039 The time that Marnie was left alone with her temperature rising 305 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:55,840 while you were in your garden, drinking. 306 00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:02,039 Um... I had... 307 00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:04,079 I had a couple of beers, sure, 308 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:07,039 but I had the monitor with me and I couldn't anticipate... 309 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:09,200 Was it a COUPLE of beers? 310 00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:16,640 I... Um... 311 00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:20,559 Perhaps four or five. 312 00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:22,440 Were there drugs involved? 313 00:18:26,360 --> 00:18:28,519 Maybe I'd smoked some weed. I do occasionally. 314 00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:30,239 It doesn't impact my judgment. 315 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:34,199 To be clear, at that moment she required hospitalisation. 316 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:35,999 I... 317 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:38,680 I think we've both made mistakes, haven't we, Nicci? 318 00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:43,359 Is this another mistake, Mr Lloyd? 319 00:18:43,360 --> 00:18:46,799 You're aware that if you do this, there is no coming back? 320 00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:49,839 Am I aware that my daughter will be dead? 321 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:52,880 Yes. I'm... aware of that. 322 00:18:54,120 --> 00:18:56,640 I don't want to make this decision. I... 323 00:18:58,200 --> 00:18:59,960 I just... um... 324 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:03,640 I feel obliged to. 325 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:10,440 No further questions. 326 00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:18,199 Where does that obligation come from? 327 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:20,160 The obligation to make that decision? 328 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:25,040 I looked at her and, um... 329 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:29,480 ..I, um... 330 00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:38,239 It's a difficult thing, watching your child in pain, 331 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:40,959 especially when you believe she won't get better. 332 00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:43,599 That is supposition on the basis of no medical training. 333 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:47,679 But I have studied. My wife and I both have. We're specialists. 334 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:50,679 You know, I believe one thing and she believes another, and 335 00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:55,720 I believe that hers is on the basis of a wish that I wish I shared. 336 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:01,480 The obligation comes from love. 337 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:05,159 And if that doesn't sound... 338 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:07,480 Well, look, I don't really care how it sounds. 339 00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:11,040 No further questions. 340 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:29,359 Uh, I'm going to catch the bus home, OK? 341 00:20:29,360 --> 00:20:32,519 Oh. Well, Grandad was going to give us a lift. 342 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:35,319 Er, yeah, I'm going to catch the bus. 343 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:37,359 Just need some space. 344 00:20:37,360 --> 00:20:39,040 OK. 345 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:55,999 I'm so sorry this is so late in the day. Oh, that's OK. 346 00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:59,079 I'm just pleased to finally be getting to talk to you. 347 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:00,200 I think I can help you. 348 00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:03,079 Great. 349 00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:07,959 So, what's your opinion on what's best now, for Marnie? 350 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:11,159 Marnie needs time. We need to be able to chart 351 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:14,119 whether any recovery from the hypoxic brain damage is possible. 352 00:21:14,120 --> 00:21:18,159 We need to see what treatment might be best for her condition. 353 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:21,599 So, I say we give her that time and get her tracheostomised 354 00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:23,000 and supported. 355 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:30,159 I can't, er... 356 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:34,559 I can't tell you how good it feels to hear a doctor say it. 357 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:36,879 Medicine's an observational sport. 358 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:40,999 Too many give up on that observation too quickly. 359 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:44,159 There are many that believe that risdiplam might have 360 00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:47,599 an impact across a spectrum of neuromuscular disorders. 361 00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:50,199 Yeah, I said... I said the same. 362 00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:52,839 And the important thing from the court's perspective is not 363 00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:56,240 that such a thing is probable, but that it's possible. 364 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:02,559 But you've had success with children like Marnie? 365 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:05,879 Mrs Lloyd, I've had success with all kinds of children 366 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:08,680 that medical science would otherwise have discarded. 367 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:16,239 What's in the picnic basket? 368 00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:18,600 I don't know yet, cos it's in the shop. 369 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:22,680 Got it. 370 00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:28,400 CAR ENGINE STARTS. 371 00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:46,639 You look like a fucking statue. 372 00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:49,279 Yeah. 373 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:50,560 You want to talk about it? 374 00:22:58,240 --> 00:22:59,920 I had... 375 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:05,199 I had thoughts. I had thoughts things... 376 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:06,800 ..would be easier without her. 377 00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:10,399 I had those thoughts. 378 00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:13,120 Of course you did. You knew how hard it was with me. 379 00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:17,599 No. That's not true. 380 00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:19,200 I loved being your big brother. 381 00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:23,160 I quite liked being your little brother. 382 00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:46,200 MUSIC: Animal Nitrate by Suede. 383 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:52,919 Dance with me. 384 00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:55,239 No! Come on. Dance with me. 385 00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:58,360 Fuck off! No, dance with me. Come on. 386 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:07,479 ♪ Like his dad, you know that he's had 387 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:11,839 ♪ Animal nitrate in mind 388 00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:16,759 ♪ Oh, in your council home he jumped on your bones 389 00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:20,999 ♪ Now you're taking it time after time 390 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:26,600 ♪ Oh, it turns you on, on... ♪ 391 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:43,840 SIREN WAILS. 392 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:41,479 I'm guessing you'll be sleeping here. 393 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:43,479 Thanks, yeah. 394 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:45,840 I'll bring you in a cup of tea at seven. 395 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:18,040 Once upon a time... 396 00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:21,480 ..there was a button... 397 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:24,480 ..called Little Button... 398 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:28,840 ..and she lived with her mum... 399 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:32,719 ..Mummy Hat... 400 00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:34,240 ..and her dad, Daddy Shirt... 401 00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:38,480 ..and her sister... 402 00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:41,320 ..Sister Shoe... 403 00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:46,600 ..in a room above a factory. 404 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:49,800 One day... 405 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:53,520 One day she went to the beach... 406 00:26:57,480 --> 00:26:59,160 ..and she... 407 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:10,240 SHE CRIES. 408 00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:17,040 You wait there, OK, sweetheart? 409 00:27:20,120 --> 00:27:22,439 OK, I'll, er... I'll finish it off. 410 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:24,439 I've got this. 411 00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:27,880 You take your time and then, er, then we'll climb up the hill, OK? 412 00:27:29,360 --> 00:27:33,119 I'm sorry. It's all right, darling. It's all right. It's all right. 413 00:27:33,120 --> 00:27:35,319 Hello! Hello, sweetheart! 414 00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:36,880 You're OK. 415 00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:41,679 You know, I've even got a story about Sister Shoes. 416 00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:43,519 I have. 417 00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:45,000 It's OK. 418 00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:07,239 Could you explain to us why the doctors are wrong? 419 00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:10,719 Marnie has a congenital muscular dystrophy. 420 00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:13,279 Her specific form has never been diagnosed, 421 00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:15,839 it's hard to diagnose, and therefore hard to treat, 422 00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:18,479 but I believe that treatments are possible. 423 00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:20,679 For instance, an experimental treatment 424 00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:22,759 called risdiplam might have an impact. 425 00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:24,199 My Lady, that drug 426 00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:26,999 is not licensed for use by NICE, the FDA, or the EMA 427 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:28,279 for Marnie's condition. 428 00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:31,479 Er, right now it isn't, but drug use changes 429 00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:32,719 all the time. 430 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:35,199 We're not here to guess as to what treatments might work. 431 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:37,919 I agree. Please refrain from guesswork, Dr Pankerman. 432 00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:39,439 We're here to establish facts. 433 00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:42,039 My point is not that a cure is available, 434 00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:44,919 my point is that it might be available. 435 00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:48,399 We will investigate and make cases for treatments. 436 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:51,400 And while we do so, we'll keep Marnie alive. 437 00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:54,880 No further questions. 438 00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:02,959 Talk me through your qualifications in PICU. 439 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:04,599 15 years qualified. 440 00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:07,519 I'm an attending physician that works mainly in neurology. 441 00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:09,159 Sorry, you misunderstand me. 442 00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:13,559 I know it's another country's medical system, so it's complicated, 443 00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:17,679 but paediatric medicine, what is your specialism there? 444 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:22,199 Unlike Dr Woodham, who is a generalist, I'm a neurologist. 445 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:23,879 I work with all ages. 446 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:25,559 I can understand the brain. 447 00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:27,319 Have you examined Marnie's brain? 448 00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:29,359 I haven't been to examine her face-to-face 449 00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:30,919 but I have looked at the scans. 450 00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:35,239 So this is just an opinion based on no direct examination? 451 00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:39,599 Your medical system has prevented me from examining Marnie. 452 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:42,199 As such, my opinion is provisional. 453 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:46,240 It is far from categoric but I do think the possibility exists. 454 00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:50,799 To be clear to the court, a second opinion was sought and given. 455 00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:53,399 The consultant asked a friend of hers from a neighbouring 456 00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:55,039 hospital to examine the girl. 457 00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:57,199 Unsurprisingly, she agreed with the consultant. 458 00:29:57,200 --> 00:29:58,959 Are you claiming that Professor Bradbury 459 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:01,559 has not complied with her duty to the court? 460 00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:03,999 That's an extremely serious allegation to make. 461 00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:05,879 What is your evidence for it? 462 00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:09,079 No, I'm not saying that, I'm just saying that often 463 00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:11,200 colleagues support each other. 464 00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:15,799 Tell me, you have appeared in other proceedings concerning 465 00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:18,079 medical treatment for minors, have you not? 466 00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:21,279 Yes. How many cases where there is a decision to be made 467 00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:23,319 about the future care of a child? 468 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:25,559 I don't know, maybe three. 469 00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:27,759 Well, this was just a simple Google search. 470 00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:31,159 We found evidence of you contributing to seven trials 471 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:34,639 on this basis. Why do you think that is? 472 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:36,959 I'm happy to help. 473 00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:41,359 To go against the establishment. Not many are, in my profession. 474 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:44,319 A bit of aggression from them helps us, to be honest. 475 00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:46,999 What did you recommend, 476 00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:49,800 in all those cases, for the child involved? 477 00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:56,040 Have you ever recommended that ventilation should cease? 478 00:30:57,960 --> 00:30:59,520 No. 479 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:02,480 I found evidence they should live. 480 00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:06,360 No further questions. 481 00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:55,479 KATIE: Hey. 482 00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:57,479 I followed you. 483 00:31:57,480 --> 00:31:59,279 Oh. 484 00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:01,359 Well, that's kids for you. 485 00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:02,959 One day they don't want to know, 486 00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:05,079 next day they're following you to church. 487 00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:09,479 Go ahead, Mum. Pray. I'm just... just here. 488 00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:10,840 No, it's OK. 489 00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:16,239 Maybe you'll have a thunderbolt moment and start believing in God. 490 00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:19,160 Yeah? Maybe I can be saved. 491 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:25,079 You know they're only doing what they need to do to win this? 492 00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:27,399 Yeah, I understand that. 493 00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:29,999 I mean, what they're doing, they're... Dad doesn't... 494 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:32,560 Mum... that's not my problem. 495 00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:36,680 Was he the best they could do? 496 00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:42,280 SHE SIGHS I thought... 497 00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:46,560 Would you trust him with Marnie? 498 00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:56,280 No. 499 00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:05,600 I don't think she'd want this. 500 00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:11,519 Sorry. 501 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:13,160 I don't. 502 00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:16,040 You're a brave girl. 503 00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:19,240 You're always so brave. 504 00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:28,279 Mrs Lloyd, 505 00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:30,840 tell me why you oppose the hospital in this action. 506 00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:35,399 Because I believe my daughter should live. 507 00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:36,960 Even though she's in pain? 508 00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:40,879 I don't believe that. 509 00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:43,439 You've seen the reports. You've been present 510 00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:46,039 at Marnie being suctioned, where it's claimed a clear pain 511 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:47,439 response has been present. 512 00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:48,799 I've never seen that pain. 513 00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:50,800 My Lady... If I'd have seen that pain... 514 00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:53,639 ..we wouldn't be here now. 515 00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:55,999 I believe we can allow Mrs Lloyd to have her own 516 00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:57,640 version of events, counsel. 517 00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:04,520 Why do you think the hospital disagrees with you? 518 00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:08,719 Um... 519 00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:14,999 Er, that's a big question. 520 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:16,400 Take your time. 521 00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:21,880 I can't... um... 522 00:34:25,159 --> 00:34:30,559 I can't tell you the amount of times that you are encouraged, 523 00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:34,440 as a parent of a disabled child, to just... 524 00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:38,238 ..to just give up. 525 00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:41,999 We had it all through this... pandemic. 526 00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:46,839 I had friends told that their kids wouldn't get machines. 527 00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:51,959 And I always knew I had to keep Marnie safe because if she did get 528 00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:56,960 the damn thing, I didn't know that she would survive it because... 529 00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:02,519 ..I didn't know that she would get the help... 530 00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:03,960 ..to survive. 531 00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:09,639 And then we made it out the other side and... 532 00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:11,160 ..and suddenly... 533 00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:15,280 My point is that, um... 534 00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:21,400 ..people say that they care about disabled people, but... 535 00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:26,240 ..always, all the time... 536 00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:29,240 ..I see different. 537 00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:34,479 Marnie's my, er... 538 00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:41,959 Marnie's my beautiful child and it's an honour to be her mother. 539 00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:44,960 So I've learned to put my shoulder down. 540 00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:49,320 I just put my shoulder down and I just... 541 00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:52,600 ..I just keep charging. 542 00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:32,480 Ready? 543 00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:38,719 You know what you used to say to me any time 544 00:36:38,720 --> 00:36:40,560 I had something difficult to do? No. 545 00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:44,999 Mum would tell me to try to be brave. You told me 546 00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:47,839 I didn't need to try, I was already brave. 547 00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:49,679 Well, I'm not you. 548 00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:51,359 You want me to come? 549 00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:52,919 You don't like crowds. 550 00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:54,560 I will, though, if you want me to. 551 00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:00,200 I can do this on my own. 552 00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:32,920 Are you all right? Yeah. 553 00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:38,559 Hi. Hi. 554 00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:40,439 I like the smart threads. 555 00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:41,480 New? 556 00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:44,280 Yeah, well... ish. 557 00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:47,480 We're here for you both. 558 00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:51,600 Yeah. Well, we better go in. 559 00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:13,600 All rise. 560 00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:35,479 These cases are clearly never easy. 561 00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:37,560 This case particularly so. 562 00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:42,119 I recognise that the strong presumption in favour 563 00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:44,359 of a course of action that will prolong life 564 00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:47,399 is not an irrebuttable one. 565 00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:51,399 It reflects the position that life, as precious as it is, 566 00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:53,799 cannot be, and indeed should not be 567 00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:58,040 preserved at all costs in the face of its natural conclusion. 568 00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:02,519 But equally I recognise that. 569 00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:05,799 Marnie Lloyd is clearly an exceptional, bright, 570 00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:08,799 happy and well-loved child. 571 00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:12,039 And it is plain from Dr Woodham's evidence, and the evidence 572 00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:15,239 given by Mr and Mrs Lloyd, that Marnie's parents have been 573 00:39:15,240 --> 00:39:18,839 doughty defenders of their daughter's best interests 574 00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:21,760 over many years, to her undoubted benefit. 575 00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:25,639 The position adopted by Mrs Lloyd 576 00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:28,319 before the court is eminently reasonable 577 00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:30,240 and wholly understandable. 578 00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:36,239 It represents a continuation of the love and dedication 579 00:39:36,240 --> 00:39:39,840 that she and her family have shown to Marnie throughout her life. 580 00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:46,800 This is a case of huge complication and immense difficulty. 581 00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:50,919 I'm going to break my thinking into four areas. 582 00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:54,040 HE BREATHES RAGGEDLY So we begin with the evidence... 583 00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:10,679 It's a panic attack. It'll pass. 584 00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:13,519 GASPING: It's just a panic attack. It'll pass. 585 00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:14,640 I've had them before. 586 00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:18,039 Is he all right? It's all right. 587 00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:21,119 He's just having a panic attack. He's had them before. Thank you. 588 00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:23,159 ANDREW SOBS. 589 00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:26,679 All right. Deep breaths, come on. 590 00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:28,999 You're OK. It's all right. 591 00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:31,359 And so, for all those reasons, 592 00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:34,799 I will make the declaration sought by the hospital... 593 00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:37,039 NICCI GASPS, SOBS 594 00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:39,999 ...that the continuation of life-sustaining treatment 595 00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:43,799 is not in Marnie's best interests. 596 00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:47,680 NICCI SOBS. 597 00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:56,200 INDISTINCT CHATTER. 598 00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:00,479 We'll sort it with Derek and talk about a potential appeal. Derek? 599 00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:02,559 Yes, absolutely. 600 00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:04,759 Look, it's hard now, I know, but... 601 00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:08,080 INDISTINCT CHATTER. 602 00:41:39,160 --> 00:41:40,920 Can we go? Let's just go. 603 00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:08,240 HE EXHALES. 604 00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:15,640 DOORBELL. 605 00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:21,320 No, I'll get it. 606 00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:28,439 Hello. Hi, Tom. 607 00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:30,040 Is, um...? 608 00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:35,839 Hello. Hi. 609 00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:38,799 I was just... writing to you. 610 00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:40,000 Saying what? 611 00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:43,239 Sh... shall I leave? 612 00:42:43,240 --> 00:42:46,199 Well, no. We'll just... We'll go for a walk. 613 00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:47,840 I always like a walk. 614 00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:56,119 All right? Yeah. 615 00:42:56,120 --> 00:42:57,400 OK. 616 00:43:02,720 --> 00:43:04,600 They want me to appeal. 617 00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:07,919 Of course they do. 618 00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:10,279 I shouldn't have told them about your drinking. 619 00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:13,479 I'm ashamed that I did that. I should... You needed to win. 620 00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:19,080 You-you were... You ARE an excellent dad. 621 00:43:21,720 --> 00:43:24,799 I'm not saying you're right, and I'm not... 622 00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:26,200 But I'm... 623 00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:29,960 But I'm-I'm stopping it. 624 00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:37,240 You're sure? 625 00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:33,160 Morning! 626 00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:37,639 This is an unexpected bounty. 627 00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:40,559 Yeah, well, they're mostly ones you've sold us. 628 00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:42,599 What's brought this on? 629 00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:46,040 Um, well, you won't be seeing us again for a while. 630 00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:49,800 She's a smasher, your Marnie. 631 00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:15,920 I don't want her to die here. 632 00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:21,519 Um... 633 00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:25,839 I'm afraid, as I understand it, she has to. 634 00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:27,799 Oh. 635 00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:31,159 I, um... I asked the same thing, 636 00:45:31,160 --> 00:45:33,639 back at the beginning, I asked whether we could, you know, 637 00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:36,600 get her home, and I was told that she'd die in the ambulance. 638 00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:39,879 Right. 639 00:45:39,880 --> 00:45:45,079 What they have said is once they've turned off all the machines and, 640 00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:50,399 you know, let her... go... ..um... 641 00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:52,879 ..they can put her in an ambulance for us 642 00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:55,760 and we can get her home then and put her to bed. 643 00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:03,359 She'd be, er... She'd be dead. 644 00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:10,560 Or, um, well, we could explore the, um... the transplant option. 645 00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:14,080 Right. 646 00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:18,039 What do you think? 647 00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:21,520 I decided I'd leave that question to you. 648 00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:24,040 Oh. 649 00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:29,439 Well, thank you for researching it 650 00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:32,720 but... I want us to decide together. 651 00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:36,000 Yeah. Um... 652 00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:40,359 I mean, I genuinely... 653 00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:42,000 I'm not sure on this. Um... 654 00:46:45,760 --> 00:46:49,519 I think Marnie would quite like to 655 00:46:49,520 --> 00:46:51,760 be back in her own bed... 656 00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:54,440 ..and, um... 657 00:46:56,520 --> 00:46:59,879 ..and I think Marnie would quite like to be useful, you know, 658 00:46:59,880 --> 00:47:01,560 to other people. 659 00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:05,519 Katie? 660 00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:06,879 Me? 661 00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:08,440 Yes, please. 662 00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:12,560 Um... 663 00:47:14,600 --> 00:47:15,920 I think... 664 00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:21,920 I think transplant. 665 00:47:25,360 --> 00:47:28,280 Could they do it quickly? They could make that happen, yeah. 666 00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:36,880 Well, let's make it happen. 667 00:48:19,440 --> 00:48:20,880 Will we hear it? 668 00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:24,999 Will we hear it when she dies? 669 00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:26,600 There might be some breathing. 670 00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:30,599 But will it sound like she's in pain? 671 00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:32,079 That's unlikely. 672 00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:35,359 Chances are she'll just pass. 673 00:48:35,360 --> 00:48:39,240 Can we call it dying? Not letting go or passing on, just... 674 00:48:41,120 --> 00:48:42,639 ..just dying. 675 00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:44,319 With the morphine she's on, 676 00:48:44,320 --> 00:48:46,320 I don't believe she'll feel any pain. 677 00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:53,560 Have you got anything you want to say to her? 678 00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:01,080 I think she knows how I feel. 679 00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:05,320 I love you, Marnie. 680 00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:09,559 I love you, too. 681 00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:11,000 I love you so much. 682 00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:14,799 I've got something I want to say. 683 00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:15,840 OK. 684 00:49:24,360 --> 00:49:28,200 KATIE WHISPERS. 685 00:49:47,040 --> 00:49:48,360 Are you ready? 686 00:49:50,200 --> 00:49:52,039 Are the transplant team ready? 687 00:49:52,040 --> 00:49:53,279 Yes. 688 00:49:53,280 --> 00:49:56,359 Um, so, um... what will happen? 689 00:49:56,360 --> 00:49:58,439 Once we've taken out the breathing tube, 690 00:49:58,440 --> 00:50:01,599 we'll let her breathe on her own. She may take a few breaths. 691 00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:03,560 You will have a little time to hold her. 692 00:50:04,520 --> 00:50:09,639 Then her heart will slow and then it will stop. 693 00:50:09,640 --> 00:50:13,080 When that happens, we need to get her next door, straight away. 694 00:50:21,120 --> 00:50:23,119 OK. 695 00:50:23,120 --> 00:50:24,880 Then I-I think we're ready. 696 00:50:29,760 --> 00:50:31,200 OK. 697 00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:50,440 SOFT BEEPING. 698 00:50:59,120 --> 00:51:02,040 SNIFFLING. 699 00:51:22,680 --> 00:51:24,320 There we go. 700 00:51:26,080 --> 00:51:27,920 There we go, lamb. 701 00:51:36,840 --> 00:51:39,759 Goodnight. Sleep tight. 702 00:51:39,760 --> 00:51:42,000 I love you. I love you. I love you. 703 00:51:46,600 --> 00:51:49,119 Was that the wrong thing to say? 704 00:51:49,120 --> 00:51:51,200 No. 705 00:53:07,960 --> 00:53:09,600 LIGHTER IGNITES. 706 00:53:16,480 --> 00:53:18,160 Well, I'll, um... 707 00:53:19,320 --> 00:53:20,960 Get in the van. 708 00:53:23,080 --> 00:53:26,680 I don't know where we're going but we're going there together. 709 00:53:28,520 --> 00:53:31,759 Right? I agree with her. 710 00:53:31,760 --> 00:53:33,400 OK. Thanks. 711 00:53:59,440 --> 00:54:02,160 I'm going to miss her... so much. 712 00:54:04,960 --> 00:54:06,880 You know I will too, right? 713 00:54:09,480 --> 00:54:11,800 You even thinking you need to say that just... 714 00:54:13,240 --> 00:54:15,200 ..makes me feel like such an arsehole. 715 00:54:17,000 --> 00:54:21,960 We made her happy and... ..and that's... 716 00:54:25,280 --> 00:54:28,280 Well, she made us happy, too. She really did. 717 00:54:39,160 --> 00:54:41,160 REAR DOOR OPENS. 718 00:54:46,520 --> 00:54:48,240 So, where to? 719 00:54:50,240 --> 00:54:51,959 I could be hungry. 720 00:54:51,960 --> 00:54:54,959 You could? Mm. Well, that's shocking. 721 00:54:54,960 --> 00:54:57,759 That's a great idea. Um... 722 00:54:57,760 --> 00:55:00,359 ..the Italian place by the library? 723 00:55:00,360 --> 00:55:01,919 Yeah. Good. 724 00:55:01,920 --> 00:55:03,839 Music? You want some music? 725 00:55:03,840 --> 00:55:06,119 Oh. I, er... 726 00:55:06,120 --> 00:55:08,640 Your dongle, it's, uh... it's busted. 727 00:55:10,240 --> 00:55:11,959 You broke my dongle? 728 00:55:11,960 --> 00:55:15,519 Yeah. Yeah, I snapped it. I snapped it in anger. 729 00:55:15,520 --> 00:55:17,359 Well, shall I sing something, then? 730 00:55:17,360 --> 00:55:18,640 KATIE CHUCKLES. 731 00:55:20,000 --> 00:55:23,119 Uh... I've got my music. 732 00:55:23,120 --> 00:55:24,640 Oh, she's got her music. 733 00:55:26,560 --> 00:55:29,000 Let's hear it, then. All right. 734 00:55:31,240 --> 00:55:36,920 MUSIC: 20/20 by Rimon 735 00:55:42,680 --> 00:55:44,759 ♪ Whoa, whoa Woo, ooh 736 00:55:44,760 --> 00:55:52,800 ♪ Whoa, whoa Woo, ooh, ooh ♪ Whoa, hmm 737 00:55:54,560 --> 00:56:00,199 ♪ I see your sunlight through the window, it's magic, uh 738 00:56:00,200 --> 00:56:05,559 ♪ My thoughts and body were just caught by this traffic, uh 739 00:56:05,560 --> 00:56:11,119 ♪ You watched time pass while I kept myself distracted, uh 740 00:56:11,120 --> 00:56:16,039 ♪ Will you forgive now that I'm paying attention? 741 00:56:16,040 --> 00:56:21,919 ♪ Uh, I see your sunlight through the window, it's magic, uh 742 00:56:21,920 --> 00:56:27,319 ♪ My thoughts and body were just caught by this traffic, uh 743 00:56:27,320 --> 00:56:30,239 ♪ Where did our time go? 744 00:56:30,240 --> 00:56:33,159 ♪ Encounters beautiful 745 00:56:33,160 --> 00:56:41,160 ♪ Only you are the one to break the shackles of my burden 746 00:56:41,600 --> 00:56:47,079 ♪ Are the one to show me glory in the moment 747 00:56:47,080 --> 00:56:48,719 ♪ Cannot pay you back 748 00:56:48,720 --> 00:56:52,479 ♪ Even if I could, I can only fall on my knees 749 00:56:52,480 --> 00:56:57,519 ♪ Show my gratitude for your deeds 750 00:56:57,520 --> 00:56:59,599 ♪ I see your sunlight through 751 00:56:59,600 --> 00:57:02,759 ♪ The window, it's magic, uh 752 00:57:02,760 --> 00:57:05,279 ♪ My thoughts and body were just 753 00:57:05,280 --> 00:57:08,399 ♪ Caught by this traffic, uh 754 00:57:08,400 --> 00:57:10,359 ♪ You watched time pass while 755 00:57:10,360 --> 00:57:13,520 ♪ I kept myself distracted. ♪ 91432

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