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WWW.MY-SUBS.COM
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Live from ABC 11,
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this is Eyewitness News at Six.
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The murder case against Michael Peterson
doesn't just involve his wife anymore.
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It involves a friend
who died 18 years ago.
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Just like Kathleen Peterson,
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Ratliff was found dead
at the bottom of a staircase.
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Eyewitness News reporter Anthony Wilson
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has more
on the potentially explosive information.
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Elizabeth Ratliff
was a friend of Michael Peterson.
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In fact, Peterson was with Ratliff
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the night before she was found
dead in Germany.
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Ratliff's body was discovered
at the bottom of a staircase in 1985,
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and prosecutors have implied
the circumstances of her death
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mirror those
of Michael Peterson's wife, Kathleen.
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She was found dead in the Peterson home
back in January 2001.
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Nope.
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OK, well, you guys got
a much better film now.
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What did Margaret Ratliff tell you
about what happened to her mother?
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- Does she know any of the details about...
- No, she doesn't.
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With the exception that her mother died
of a natural cause.
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Didn't we look at this...
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a few months ago,
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and didn't Mike give us
an autopsy or something?
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stroke or cerebral hemorrhage,
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- or something like that?
- Right.
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He told us that he had been with her
the day before,
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I think with Patty,
they had dinner or something.
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But you know what the authorities
are gonna do. The police are gonna assume
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that because she was found
at the bottom of the stairs,
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they're gonna try to link them together.
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- Whether or not they're successful...
- Mike is like "The Stairway Killer."
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- Is that the idea?
- Apparently that's what they're gonna...
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He's found a way to kill women,
17 years apart...
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Right? This is, like, in the mid-'80s.
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Yeah, this is 1985, I believe.
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So he strikes, like, every 17 years,
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by finding some way to kill women
on a stairway? Is that the...
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Right.
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And of course it helps their case.
It's, you know...
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if two people are found
at the bottom of stairs,
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they're gonna try to bring that in,
one way or the other.
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I mean, I don't know what's there,
and it may be nothing,
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but if it is nothing,
we need to find out it's nothing.
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'Cause I'm not gonna be very...
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comfortable being surprised by something
that happened in Germany.
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Oh, I know.
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I know you don't know much
about the case,
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but we all form impressions
from whatever we've heard.
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Howard, you know,
what's your gut-level reaction?
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- Can I ask one question before I tell you?
- Sure.
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OK, someone said
that there was another wife...
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that died in similar circumstances?
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I think... I don't know
whether she was a wife or not,
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but there was another woman that...
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It came up that she may have fallen
in similar circumstances,
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and someone had said
they need to check that out.
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This second incident in Europe
casts a long shadow on Michael Peterson.
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And it really does create a lot of doubt.
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OK.
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So I think that...
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people are going to really question
his innocence because of this.
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Because the two incidences,
as I remember reading,
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were so very similar.
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Can you be back here in 35 minutes?
Is that enough time? 35, 40 minutes?
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Oh! I'm sorry.
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The Germany thing is out there already.
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We're not gonna to get rid of that.
It's there.
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You know?
There is no getting rid of it.
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All we can do right now is...
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I agree with David.
Can I make a suggestion?
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I'd like to know,
if you would ask them one more time,
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What would you want to know
about the Germany thing?
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What would you want to know,
and then answer the questions.
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- Right.
- OK.
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Do you want me to start out
by clarifying the Germany thing?
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- Yes, now that it's on the table,
- It does seem to permeate...
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I think we have to...
"Here are the facts
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that are known right now about Germany."
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We know what we're gonna be able to show.
There was no financial benefit from it.
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He did take...
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You know, he took care of the kids
for the next 16 years.
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There was no evidence of any affair.
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Do you wanna mention
the $70,000 or not?
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Yeah, you can say there was
a $70,000 life insurance policy,
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- and that's all the money that...
- And it was left to the girls, right?
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- Right.
- Which he spent on the girls.
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- Right.
- Which was spent on the girls.
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What happened is, that during the night,
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or a few days following
the death of Mrs. Peterson,
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the police overheard
some people talking about...
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"Well, this is really a double tragedy,
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because Margaret and Martha's mother died
in the same way,"
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and that is why the police decided
to check into it,
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and go to Germany,
and find out what the circumstances were.
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But it wasn't the same way, though.
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I would think that the defense
would benefit
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from this story being brought up
in the case
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because my opinion has gone,
like you say,
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higher respect, moral character,
towards Peterson,
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by the man who would do that,
take on the children, et cetera.
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I have to say I have
a totally new respect for the man.
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Anybody who would take on
someone else's children and raise them,
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and they're not blood children
because when they got divorced,
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he could have easily said,
"Go with Patty,"
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or, "Go to the state," or whatever.
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I'm just thinking that we,
the group, in general,
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jumped to a conclusion of innocence,
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because he adopted these...
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her two children, the woman who died.
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- No, that's not what I'm saying.
- I don't think you can do that.
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Well, let's assume, for instance,
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that he had an affair
with this woman, OK?
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And he was discovered.
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OK? I'm gonna write
one of his books now.
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Suppose he has to get rid of her...
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and does...
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Then adopting the children would
make him look innocent, wouldn't it?
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- Here's a picture of Axel here, that's...
- OK.
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- When we get in the airport...
- He's gonna meet us the airport.
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- Axel's gonna meet us at the airport.
- OK.
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Grafenhausen is where Elizabeth was living
at the time of her death.
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That's also where
Mike and Patty were living.
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and one of the first people
we're gonna see is Patty herself.
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- Where is Patty living now?
- Grafenhausen.
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- She's still living there.
- Yeah.
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- But a different house.
- Different house, not far.
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It's just a little village.
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And Patty is taking us over
to the apartment.
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She says a woman lives there,
but doesn't know her,
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so we're just gonna go in
and knock on the door.
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Hopefully, she'll let us in.
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You're talking about
Elizabeth's apartment?
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Elizabeth's old apartment.
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In my mind, there are two main things
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that I think we should be focusing on
when we go over there.
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First of all, I think we...
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need to understand
what the relationship was
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between Mike and Patty on the one hand,
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and Elizabeth Ratliff on the other.
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And the second thing
I think we need to really focus on,
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is what happened on the morning
that Elizabeth Ratliff died,
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what time did Barbara Malagnino find her?
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What were the conditions like?
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You know, what happened
after Barbara found her.
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You know, what were Mike and Patty doing,
all that sort of stuff.
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I hear Clayton's doing well
in Baltimore, he enjoys it.
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I am thankful.
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I'm encouraging him to apply for entry
to Johns Hopkins
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- to do his master's degree in electronics.
- That'd be great.
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- Yeah.
- A brother is going...
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So these are the houses?
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These are all of the homes.
They're all exactly alike.
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- The stairs in question...
- There's a young German youth there.
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Yes.
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Hallo, Todd.
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And this is where Todd grew up
for six years.
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So does this bring back
fond memories for you?
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It's amazing being back here.
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Is it?
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It's a lot smaller.
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Really? You remembered it bigger?
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And this home here was the Peterson home.
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- Right here?
- That is it.
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So you all lived right here?
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Yes. I won't go further.
There's someone in her window.
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- OK.
- But we lived here.
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The children's bedroom upstairs,
and ours over there.
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And this is the home
of dear Elizabeth McKee Ratliff,
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- our beloved friend.
- It's right here?
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This is it, yes, this is her home.
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Liz lived here with...
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Margaret and Martha.
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With Margaret and Martha,
and Barbara, the nanny,
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would... would live here with them,
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but of course she was not always here.
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She was sometimes out with her family,
with her friends.
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But they lived here from...
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probably the end of 1983,
until Liz's death in the fall of 1985.
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And we spent, essentially,
much of every day together.
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She and I were teachers together
at the base school.
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And Sunday evening,
we had dinner here together.
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Mike came in later,
because he went every day
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to the gymnasium at the air base,
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and he came in perhaps 30 minutes later.
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We shared dinner,
then I took my two sons back home
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to put them in bed.
Mike stayed here, as was customary
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since George's death,
to help clear the dishes, perhaps.
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Sometimes, he would read a story
to the children,
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bring family comfort to them,
and then he returned home to me.
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He got the... Rather, to our home.
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He came to collect the automobile keys.
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He drove back here in the automobile.
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Liz would have been in her automobile.
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We American teachers have
the custom over here,
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if we need to have
automobile repair work done,
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one drives a friend,
collects us, and brings us back home.
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That had been the arrangement,
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and I can confirm the fact that
he returned within 30 to 40 minutes
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after that trip.
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- Let me ask you a question.
- Of course, yes.
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When they left your place,
the girls were here asleep, right?
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Or did they come home,
Martha and Margaret?
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- Repeat your question please.
- No, the dinner was here.
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Well, the dinner was here,
but when Mike took...
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- I understand that Mike took Liz...
- Liz.
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The girls would have been
sleeping upstairs.
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- Who was watching the girls?
- They were probably alone for 30 minutes.
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So you're talking, how old were they?
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- Would have been several years.
- Two and one.
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Two and one.
And they would have been left alone?
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Yes, but probably, she might have notified
a next door neighbor,
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and also, I was there.
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Up the street.
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OK.
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- Let me ask an unpleasant question.
- Yes.
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Is there any chance
that Mike was having an affair with her?
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My response would be absolutely not.
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It was a platonic relationship,
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because I know all aspects
of his personality.
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There would be, under no circumstances
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would he have had
a sexual relationship with her.
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He would have had a platonic,
a loving, familial relationship with her,
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and that, in my mind,
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in my heart, in my spirit,
under no circumstances...
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including even temporary insanity,
that could strike all persons,
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under no circumstances would he have
taken her life or injured her.
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Is this how you pictured it, Ron?
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- No.
- No.
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I didn't realize it was this close.
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- It's very close.
- Yeah. Yeah.
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Yeah, I thought it was
a lot further away,
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the way they were explaining it to me.
It's real close.
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Hello?
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- Hi.
- Hi.
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- Is it alright if we come in?
- Of course.
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Thank you.
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- Thank you very much.
- You're welcome.
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Don't be afraid of the dog.
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Oh, no, no, no.
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He's just barking.
241
00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:57,360
But I understood
that she had a stroke up there,
242
00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:00,440
and then she fell down
and obviously broke her neck.
243
00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:01,840
I really don't know.
244
00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:02,800
OK.
245
00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:05,680
I know that my neighbors up there,
246
00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:10,160
they still were talking
that it was kind of funny...
247
00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:12,320
and mysterious.
248
00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:14,760
And I think the babysitter found her.
249
00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:15,680
Yes, right.
250
00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:17,000
Hallo. Guten tag.
251
00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:18,400
Guten tag.
252
00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:24,480
And hallo.
253
00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:25,960
You are most kind.
254
00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:28,360
- Never mind, it's OK.
- Thank you.
255
00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:31,760
So...
256
00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:33,720
You OK?
257
00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:43,440
- Seventy-eight centimeters.
- Seventy-eight...
258
00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:50,280
Sixteen.
259
00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:57,600
This is the first time
I've been in the home
260
00:14:57,680 --> 00:14:59,000
since that period of time.
261
00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:00,960
- Is that right? Since she died?
- Yes.
262
00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:04,720
And when Barbara first came in
and found her,
263
00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:07,320
and was with with her
for perhaps five minutes,
264
00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:10,840
and then came to collect me,
and I ran immediately,
265
00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:13,400
and Liz was still in the same position,
266
00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:17,160
and then Michael immediately,
within a few minutes,
267
00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:18,960
telephoned the military police,
268
00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:20,320
and she was...
269
00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:22,920
Now that I see the staircase,
270
00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:25,880
she could have even been
on the first, second stair.
271
00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:28,720
I was sitting here the entire time
272
00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:32,560
that the polizei
and the military police were in the home,
273
00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:35,200
and I was sitting here,
directly observing,
274
00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:38,920
when the German medical examiner
took the spinal tap
275
00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:42,040
and held the contents up
so that he could view them,
276
00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:43,720
and that even from this distance,
277
00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:47,760
I could see that it did not look clear,
and that's when he made the statement,
278
00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:50,680
right there by her body, in my presence,
279
00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:53,040
that she had died
of a cerebral hemorrhage.
280
00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:55,520
There was nothing out of place,
281
00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:57,280
except she was no longer living.
282
00:15:57,520 --> 00:16:00,800
Everything was as one would have walked
into a normal home.
283
00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:03,160
You know, there was no pool of blood.
284
00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:05,440
- There were no...
- Spatters.
285
00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:07,920
I mean, there could have been
a few spatters here.
286
00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:11,560
But so small,
that they did not register with me.
287
00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:14,440
- OK, so like this...
- Yes, and her feet were...
288
00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:17,560
- Try to position me exactly.
- OK, if you turn here,
289
00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:20,240
and the feet were about,
something like right here.
290
00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:23,440
Just turned a little...
She was turned sideways.
291
00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:25,800
She was turned on her side facing upward.
292
00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:28,720
- Facing that way. OK.
- Yes, like that.
293
00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:31,760
Except this arm was more under her,
as I recall.
294
00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:33,120
- Something like this?
- Yes,
295
00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:34,920
and this arm would have been
more like this.
296
00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:37,600
You are more at an angle,
and her position was more linear.
297
00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:40,520
- More straight?
- More linear, at a diagonal.
298
00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:43,800
Like that, yes,
but you take up four stairs,
299
00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:45,880
and she would have
only taken three stairs,
300
00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:49,040
and her head was lower,
and her head was more...
301
00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:51,160
on this angle.
302
00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:37,280
What was your sense,
other than attending the parties
303
00:17:37,360 --> 00:17:38,920
at Mike and Patty's house?
304
00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:42,600
Did you have any sense of what
their relationship was like at the time?
305
00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:46,320
I saw them as a perfectly normal couple.
306
00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:48,800
Not anything unusual, and...
307
00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:54,760
Did you ever see Mike lose his temper
at Patty,
308
00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:56,600
- or get angry at her?
- Oh, no. We were never
309
00:17:56,680 --> 00:17:58,600
in a situation where
that would have happened.
310
00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:01,080
- This is Liz here.
- Mm-hmm.
311
00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:03,800
And that's the oldest daughter
with her, Margaret?
312
00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:08,360
- Which one's Liz?
- Yes. On the right.
313
00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:10,480
Can I see that?
314
00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:13,720
Is this about what she looked like
when she died?
315
00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:15,440
Is this close to when she died?
316
00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:17,800
Yeah, because you can tell
by the age of the girls.
317
00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:19,840
- One girl was two, one was one.
- OK.
318
00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:22,240
That's Patty, of course,
319
00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:25,200
because look,
here I see Patty and Liz side-by-side.
320
00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:28,960
This could have been Liz.
If I had not seen this other picture.
321
00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:31,560
I would have taken this for Liz.
322
00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:33,360
How close they looked.
323
00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:35,360
See? Look at this.
324
00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:36,960
Patty... Liz.
325
00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:40,560
- Who's that there? Is that Mike? Oh.
- That's Mike.
326
00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:41,480
Oh, wow.
327
00:18:42,120 --> 00:18:44,440
This is after George had died?
328
00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:46,440
I would think so. Otherwise, George...
329
00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:49,880
Which one is Liz now?
The one standing up?
330
00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:52,560
Yeah, but look how close.
331
00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:57,280
From our perspective,
given what the police think,
332
00:18:57,360 --> 00:18:59,200
what we're concerned about is,
333
00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:00,800
did she ever say anything to you
334
00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:04,320
that would have led you to believe
that she had some affair with Mike,
335
00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:07,000
or illicit relationship with Mike?
336
00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:09,920
No. That's the first time I hear this.
337
00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:11,040
OK.
338
00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:13,480
- We have to ask the question.
- Yeah, I know, but...
339
00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:17,080
that would have been so far-fetched,
that even if she had said that,
340
00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:18,920
I would have said, "Are you crazy?"
341
00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:20,600
And I don't think...
342
00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:24,120
See, the friendship between Patty and Liz
343
00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:26,600
was a such a friendship, that...
344
00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:30,000
you wouldn't dare ruin your friendship
over something like that.
345
00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:32,280
And that's the way Liz believed,
346
00:19:32,360 --> 00:19:35,160
and that's the way I believe
with my close friends,
347
00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:37,480
- because I risk the friendship.
- Right.
348
00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:42,000
And to me,
the friendship is worth more than a man.
349
00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:43,560
I can find a man somewhere else.
350
00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:47,240
- But then I still have that friendship.
- Makes me feel real good.
351
00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:50,000
- No, but would you risk a friendship...
- I'm just kidding.
352
00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:53,400
- I think you're asking the wrong person.
- That went on over years?
353
00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:57,200
It takes time to build a friendship,
and when it lasts for years...
354
00:19:57,400 --> 00:19:59,400
Depends on how fast you talk.
355
00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:00,840
Ah, no.
356
00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:36,680
This is the District Attorney's office?
357
00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:37,720
Yeah.
358
00:20:39,360 --> 00:20:41,320
What's the handwriting on the back there?
359
00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:43,960
Is that anything?
360
00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:48,440
Oh, yes, it's a decision of my colleague,
361
00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:51,080
who said, "I put an end to this case."
362
00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:53,040
- Ah, OK.
- "It's finished."
363
00:20:53,360 --> 00:20:55,280
- Do we get a copy of this?
- Yes.
364
00:20:55,360 --> 00:20:56,440
Yes, I see it.
365
00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:59,880
- And it has the name of the doctor.
- Of the doctor, OK.
366
00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:03,520
It's a lot of years. 15 years or 17 years.
367
00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:05,080
Yes. Yes.
368
00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:07,240
Thank you. Yes.
369
00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:21,880
Because...
There's a trial in the United States...
370
00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:25,400
because of murder or homicide?
371
00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:27,840
Which is the prosecution?
372
00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:33,480
It's a homicide case in the United States.
373
00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:36,240
- Where is it in the States?
- In North Carolina.
374
00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:38,160
- North Carolina.
- Yes.
375
00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:40,160
- OK.
- Thank you very much.
376
00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:41,160
No problem.
377
00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:42,240
Thank you.
378
00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:44,080
Have a good day.
379
00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:45,080
Goodbye.
380
00:21:57,320 --> 00:22:00,880
"Body was given to the MPs,
381
00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:05,880
and any following investigation
will be conducted
382
00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:08,200
- by the CID, Darmstadt."
- CID, Darmstadt.
383
00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:12,200
"He realized that there is blood...
384
00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:17,040
- inside the fluid..."
- Spinal fluid.
385
00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:18,320
"Spinal fluid."
386
00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:20,320
OK...
387
00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:23,120
Natural death,
388
00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:26,680
due to blood inside the brain."
389
00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:28,240
OK, yeah, hemorrhage.
390
00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:32,080
Is it unusual for the doctor
to go to the place of a death?
391
00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:34,360
- Or do they always go?
- No, they always go.
392
00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:35,640
OK.
393
00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:40,120
Every accident, the German law says
394
00:22:40,360 --> 00:22:44,000
it must must be attended by a doctor,
395
00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:47,760
and he has to give
his medical examination.
396
00:22:48,360 --> 00:22:49,400
OK.
397
00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:52,520
Well, there was no foul play.
398
00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:55,480
That's why they quit investigations.
399
00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:56,640
OK.
400
00:23:03,360 --> 00:23:06,400
Hey, Michael. How are you? I'm back.
401
00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:10,600
If I never go to Germany again,
it'll be OK.
402
00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:15,360
All I could think about,
403
00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:20,200
as I watched these German men
marching in this parade on Saturday,
404
00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:23,480
was what they were doing in 1942.
405
00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:26,240
Yes, exactly.
406
00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:29,200
Or guarding somebody who I knew.
407
00:23:30,120 --> 00:23:30,960
Yes.
408
00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:36,240
Sunday we first interviewed Barbara.
409
00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:40,720
Yeah. There are a couple of things
that she said,
410
00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:43,800
that, you know,
if they're true, are troubling.
411
00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:49,040
She claimed that there was
a lot of blood all around the stairway
412
00:23:49,120 --> 00:23:51,000
and the bottom of the hallway.
413
00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:54,440
You know, when Liz was lying there,
414
00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:58,000
and Patty says that's just not true.
415
00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:02,600
There's no indication of that
in any of the police reports,
416
00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:07,200
but she was very firm about that.
417
00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:11,400
You know, blood on the wall,
blood underneath the stairs.
418
00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:14,360
You know, she told me
she had been cleaning blood up for,
419
00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:16,040
you know, weeks afterwards.
420
00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:41,720
Alright...
421
00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:45,160
On the exhumation...
422
00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:52,760
apparently Holland told Barbara,
in an email to her,
423
00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:56,400
told her that they were
exhuming Liz's body.
424
00:24:57,160 --> 00:24:59,480
Right now we're just basing it on
425
00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:04,480
what Barbara told us
that Holland told her,
426
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:06,440
- and I don't wanna...
- Right.
427
00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:09,240
What I would like you to do,
then, is talk to Hardin,
428
00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:12,440
and say, "Jim, we don't
personally have any objection,"
429
00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:14,840
although again,
what's the fucking grounds?
430
00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:16,400
Can people just go dig up graves?
431
00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:19,560
What Holland claimed
was that they had permission
432
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:23,720
- from Liz's mother and sister.
- Well, aren't the closest relatives...
433
00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:26,320
And, again, I don't wanna get into
a pissing contest with them.
434
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:28,520
- What about their daughter?
- I don't know.
435
00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:29,920
You know, that...
436
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:32,640
It may be ugly and it may be terrible,
437
00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:34,640
but the bottom line is,
it's gonna end up help...
438
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:36,560
- You know, if...
- I understand that.
439
00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:39,280
If everything is as we think it is,
it's gonna help us.
440
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:41,680
I know, and normally, look, I mean,
441
00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:43,960
I've seen enough dead bodies
and corpses and graves,
442
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:45,240
that it doesn't...
443
00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:48,280
You know, I have no moral problem
with this, but...
444
00:25:49,120 --> 00:25:52,920
You know, again, as I wrote you,
Liz was a very good friend of mine.
445
00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:55,920
And I've been with that family,
the Ratliff family,
446
00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:57,440
since George died in...
447
00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:01,080
Jesus, you know,
the Grenada Invasion in 1981.
448
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:04,280
I mean, these people have gone
through an immense amount.
449
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:09,120
And it's just... I just don't know,
450
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:11,480
and I can't imagine
what Margaret and Martha would think.
451
00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:14,480
"Oh, by the way, your Aunt Margaret
decided to dig up your mother.
452
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:18,200
Just because."
Like, oh, Christ!
453
00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:21,840
So if you can work it out with Holland,
or Holland and Hardin,
454
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:25,400
so that I won't tell the girls,
but before they do it,
455
00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:27,800
I'm certainly
going to have to tell the girls,
456
00:26:28,120 --> 00:26:32,440
and you might say, "You might also, Jim,
want to talk to the girls.
457
00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:34,200
You know, the sister's one thing,
458
00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:37,080
but the daughters
are another matter, and..."
459
00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:39,440
- I really don't want to get into that.
- OK.
460
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:45,720
I don't want to get into
a pissing match with Hardin
461
00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:48,440
over who did they get permission from,
462
00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:50,920
and who should they have gotten
permission from.
463
00:26:51,120 --> 00:26:53,240
That, I mean, that's just a battle that...
464
00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:57,040
A, I don't want to fight,
and B, we're not gonna win.
465
00:26:57,120 --> 00:27:01,120
Right. Fine, but I guess now we're
strictly talking about the law here.
466
00:27:01,360 --> 00:27:03,000
Can people just go dig up graves?
467
00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:05,800
You know, it's one thing when they go in,
on Holland,
468
00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:08,240
and go swab Kathleen's vagina,
and Howard and Brian.
469
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:10,880
Now we're talking...
You know, that's macabre and sick.
470
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:14,400
They go in there after Kathleen's autopsy,
two days later.
471
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:16,560
She's in there,
they all rush in to her body,
472
00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:18,360
and were doing that,
which was disgusting,
473
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:19,760
and now we're digging up a body.
474
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:21,400
- I just, I don't like it.
- I understand.
475
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:23,400
No, but I mean, I understand it.
476
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:25,800
So just work it out with Hardin,
477
00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:28,240
that at least
I can notify Margaret and Martha
478
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:30,720
that their mom is going to be dug up.
479
00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:34,080
I understand.
480
00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:47,000
Morning, morning, morning.
Hi, nice to see you.
481
00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:48,400
- How are you?
- Good.
482
00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:52,200
- Guter?
- I did sleep. Yes.
483
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:53,360
- Thank you. You?
- Good.
484
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:55,160
Down in the corner room?
485
00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:57,240
- No, just nearby.
- Yeah.
486
00:27:57,360 --> 00:27:59,360
I'm so happy to see you again.
487
00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:03,840
You don't need anything?
You want something to drink?
488
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:05,600
Just a little water.
That would be lovely...
489
00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:07,040
- Ice?
- ...as a matter of fact.
490
00:28:07,120 --> 00:28:08,840
Of course.
491
00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:15,920
Oh, my God. My attorney. Jesus.
492
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:17,400
Hello?
493
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:19,280
David!
494
00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:21,640
Fine. What's up?
495
00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:24,200
Go ahead.
496
00:28:27,360 --> 00:28:28,480
Well, that's what I thought,
497
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:30,240
that the whole purpose
behind embalming,
498
00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:31,720
was to preserve the body.
499
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:38,880
So the expectation is she's going to look
exactly like she was
500
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:40,400
when she was buried.
501
00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:42,800
That's what I thought.
502
00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:48,160
Yeah, and you know,
she was buried in her wedding dress.
503
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:52,200
So you wanna see her by seven o'clock?
504
00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:53,160
Bye.
505
00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:58,280
- That was David saying that...
- I beg your pardon.
506
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:01,360
The exhumation is probably going to be...
507
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:05,000
She's going to be perfectly preserved.
508
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:08,080
- Indeed.
- That's what I would have thought.
509
00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:11,600
Well, I had horrors of other things that...
510
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:14,200
I think we did,
but that's the whole idea behind...
511
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:17,320
- Embalming.
- Embalming, and having, you know,
512
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:22,520
sealed coffins, and then a vault in there,
so that you're preserved forever.
513
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:24,120
Yes.
514
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:26,960
I think when Margaret
was visiting with me,
515
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:28,440
we had a very good visit,
516
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:33,040
and we sat down
and we talked for many, many hours.
517
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:35,160
We talked through the entire night.
518
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:37,880
All of her hopes, her dreams, her fears.
519
00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:41,600
And with your trial approaching
closer and closer,
520
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:44,440
I think everyone's anxiety
is growing more.
521
00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:45,520
When we were in Frankfurt,
522
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:48,880
I took her up
to the wonderful, lofty building
523
00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:50,920
from which you can view all of Frankfurt,
524
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:54,640
and she developed
some severe anxiety about that,
525
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:59,800
and obviously this is all related
to her feelings for you, the father.
526
00:29:59,920 --> 00:30:02,840
You are her profound
father figure obviously,
527
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:06,520
but I think that her anxiety is,
perhaps, increasing somewhat,
528
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:08,800
because she does not want to suffer
another loss,
529
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:11,600
and we touched very briefly on...
530
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:15,800
on the exhumation of her mother.
I did not use that word.
531
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:18,240
I didn't use necessarily an epithet,
532
00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:20,360
but I didn't want to use
that word directly.
533
00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:24,480
But this, I feel, will be a very profound
534
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:27,000
and certainly life-disturbing
event for her.
535
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:40,680
It was just a shock. It was...
536
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:42,840
too overwhelming. It was...
537
00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:46,240
the most horrible thing in the world.
I don't know.
538
00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:49,760
It was, like, my worst nightmare
when I was little.
539
00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:51,880
You know, you'd have nightmares of like...
540
00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:55,480
your mother,
your parents coming back alive,
541
00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:57,360
and what they would look like,
you know,
542
00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:00,320
and just typical childhood nightmares,
543
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:02,400
and it was like it was coming true.
544
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:05,600
It was my worst nightmare
in the world coming true.
545
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:06,600
It's horrible.
546
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:12,680
And the fact that we had to sign it, too,
was traumatizing.
547
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:17,080
You know, we had to sign this sheet
that would release her...
548
00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:21,640
It would have them
dig up our mother, and...
549
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:26,280
examine her body,
and it's horrible, it's the most...
550
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:30,200
horrible thing I could ever have imagined.
551
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:37,040
My first gut reaction was, "No. No way.
552
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:40,480
There's no chance in hell.
I'm not gonna let this happen,"
553
00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:44,720
but then I sat down and thought about it,
and realized that...
554
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:46,840
You know, and Dad didn't even
talk to us about it.
555
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:52,000
He just told us, you know, asked us,
basically, whether it was OK with us.
556
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:54,600
And when I talked to Martha,
557
00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:57,680
I just realized that we had to.
558
00:31:57,760 --> 00:31:59,680
I mean, obviously,
559
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:03,160
it would show that Dad didn't do anything.
560
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:06,000
You know, it would give
even more proof to the fact
561
00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:09,880
that Dad is innocent of everything.
562
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:16,200
"The last trip Liz Ratliff...
563
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:18,880
nee McKee...
564
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:20,960
made was in a hearse.
565
00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:23,080
She had ridden in others.
566
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:26,800
The first after she died in 1985.
567
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:30,000
She had been transported from her home,
where she died,
568
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:31,960
to the hospital, for her autopsy.
569
00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:35,360
Then, there was a hearse ride
from the hospital to the airport
570
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:37,280
for her return to the United States.
571
00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:39,520
And what presumably...
572
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:42,480
was her last hearse journey
573
00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:46,120
from the mortuary to the grave.
574
00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:49,720
However, 18 years later,
575
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:51,920
she made another trip.
576
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:55,480
This one, a 1,200 mile journey
across Middle America
577
00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:56,920
in the back of a hearse,
578
00:32:57,560 --> 00:32:59,080
traveling from her grave...
579
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:03,160
to North Carolina, for another autopsy."
580
00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:16,360
What they're looking for,
I'm really not sure.
581
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:18,600
The woman's been buried for 17 years.
582
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:22,880
The autopsy, the investigation,
583
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:25,960
everything that was conducted
back in Germany...
584
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:30,880
ruled that it was an accident,
she had a cerebral hemorrhage.
585
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:35,080
This is crazy. Absolutely crazy.
586
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:38,840
Disturbing a woman after 17 years
for some...
587
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:41,920
wild guess, I guess.
588
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:49,440
We're not concerned about it,
'cause we know what happened.
589
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:52,840
We're disturbed
that they feel it necessary
590
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:56,160
to exhume the body and disturb her peace.
591
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:02,240
The two girls, Martha and Margaret,
are pretty well disturbed about it.
592
00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:21,400
A little bit farther down.
593
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:24,760
Alright.
594
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:26,800
OK.
595
00:34:40,720 --> 00:34:42,520
Oh, the flat headstone? OK.
596
00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:46,360
I think I see it right here.
There's four stakes in the ground.
597
00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:48,200
Who's buried next to her? George?
598
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:49,760
OK.
599
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:14,760
They were married
for a very short period of time.
600
00:35:15,240 --> 00:35:18,680
They've been laying together here
side-by-side for 17 years,
601
00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:21,160
and now they're gonna move her out.
602
00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:25,280
I know that captain would raise hell.
603
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:28,120
This is crazy.
604
00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:10,680
Three, two, one.
605
00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:14,760
The DA thinks there's enough similarities
between the two deaths,
606
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:17,680
that they've had Elizabeth Ratliff's body
exhumed from the Chap...
607
00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:19,240
Blah, blah, blah.
608
00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:22,680
Chapel Hill? I didn't know we were
back in North Carolina.
609
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:24,120
North Cackalacky!
610
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:27,800
Three, two, one.
611
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:31,600
The DA thinks there's enough similarities
between the two deaths
612
00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:35,240
that they've had Ratliff's body exhumed
from a cemetery here in Texas,
613
00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:38,280
and brought to the medical examiner's
office in Chapel Hill.
614
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:47,600
A little water in there.
615
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:50,080
- That's mostly condensation.
- Yeah.
616
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:53,800
That's in great shape.
617
00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:56,400
What a relief.
618
00:37:56,640 --> 00:37:58,800
Adrian's coming around.
This is my first.
619
00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:00,240
My first!
620
00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:21,080
Ratliff's body will be guarded the entire
time it heads back to Chapel Hill.
621
00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:23,680
That vehicle will be followed
by Durham investigators,
622
00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:26,280
and even when they spend the night
in Alabama tonight,
623
00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:28,640
there will be guards
looking over the body.
624
00:38:28,720 --> 00:38:32,160
She's expected to be back here...
No "she." I can't say "she."
625
00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:35,720
Three, two, one.
626
00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:38,360
Now you got a long drive back?
627
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:41,120
We have a very long drive back.
628
00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:45,280
- Anything else you wanna tell us?
- No.
629
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:47,640
Thank you.
630
00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:49,600
Well?
631
00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:52,280
- Looks OK?
- Y'all ready?
632
00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:55,360
In which shape is...?
633
00:38:56,520 --> 00:38:57,520
It's in great shape.
634
00:38:57,600 --> 00:38:58,920
- Great shape.
- Great shape.
635
00:38:59,720 --> 00:39:02,400
We didn't know what to expect,
but things went well.
636
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:04,080
Things went very well.
637
00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:14,680
Up till the death of Kathleen,
638
00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:17,520
I really didn't know
who Michael Peterson was,
639
00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:18,960
other than being a writer.
640
00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:24,320
And a military veteran.
641
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:28,440
I didn't know him personally,
didn't know his character.
642
00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:34,040
Who can do something like that?
643
00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:36,720
Somebody's that's got
a very, very bad temper.
644
00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:39,400
Talking with witnesses,
645
00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:43,280
and some of Elizabeth Ratliff's
family members,
646
00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:46,000
he's got a very bad temper.
647
00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:52,560
A lot of people that I interviewed
said they were the perfect couple.
648
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:55,000
"I wish I had a husband like that," but...
649
00:40:57,440 --> 00:41:01,400
going back to the materials that we found
in his computer and in his home,
650
00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:05,040
he was not a happily married man
to Kathleen Peterson.
651
00:41:12,240 --> 00:41:13,160
Hello?
652
00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:15,080
Hey, how are you?
653
00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:17,840
Everything went swell.
654
00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:21,680
The vault was intact,
as well as the casket.
655
00:41:22,720 --> 00:41:24,080
We're in Louisiana.
656
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:27,400
No, no, no, no.
The casket has not been opened.
657
00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:31,600
We're not touching that.
No, no. That'll be opened Wednesday.
658
00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:36,440
Anyway, I'm very optimistic about what
our findings are going to be Wednesday.
659
00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:39,880
That was Elizabeth's sister.
660
00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:43,880
Margaret Blair. She lives in Rhode Island.
661
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:57,480
I expect him to be found guilty
of killing his wife.
662
00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:01,400
And I think after the autopsy tomorrow,
663
00:43:03,240 --> 00:43:04,320
people will have...
664
00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:08,440
issues, I think, with the results of that,
665
00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:11,400
as far as his involvement
with the death of Elizabeth Ratliff.
666
00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:31,240
We home. We home.
667
00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:44,120
They could have had
that autopsy done in Texas.
668
00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:48,800
We suggested that they do it in Texas,
with a neutral forensic pathologist,
669
00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:53,600
and there are some world-class
forensic pathologists there in Texas
670
00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:54,960
who could have done that.
671
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:59,360
Instead, what the prosecutors did
was they spent thousands of dollars
672
00:43:59,960 --> 00:44:04,880
transporting her body 1,200 miles
from Bay City, Texas to Chapel Hill,
673
00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:09,360
in order to allow Deborah Radisch,
who had already concluded
674
00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:12,200
that Kathleen Peterson's death
was not accidental,
675
00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:15,520
to perform the autopsy
on Elizabeth Ratliff.
54595
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