Original subtitles

NARRATOR: This film

Sullivan, a woman who practices a radical new kind of sex

Downloaded from YTS.MX

therapy.

She is a sex surrogate.

Official YIFY movies site: YTS.MX

Her clients are men unable to have

successful sexual relationships.

Her job is to help them learn how to love.

What follows is the story of two clients

who allowed their entire therapy to be filmed.

Maureen saw each man once a week for four months.

Supervised by a therapist, she guided them

through a series of sexual exercises

that became progressively more intimate.

For many viewers, the subject of sex surrogates

will raise moral and ethical issues.

Instead of debating these issues,

we will focus on the experiences of the people

involved, for this film is about more

than sex surrogate therapy.

It is about people trying to understand their most

intimate and profound emotion...

Love.

On January 18, 1983, Maureen was contacted by Warren Jason,

a psychotherapist, about a young client

who had almost no sexual experience with women.

The client was extremely fearful in the presence of a woman,

and wanted to overcome that fear.

He had been through years of individual and group therapy,

with little success.

Mr. Jason recommended he work with a sex surrogate.

One week later, he went to Maureen's home

in Los Angeles, California, for his first session.

Would you rather be called Christopher or Chris?

Kipper, actually.

Kipper?

I guess I would like you to tell me a little bit about yourself.

Warren told me a fair amount last night on the phone,

but I'd rather hear it from you.

And then I'll talk about myself or any questions

you have about me.

Well, I'm new to LA.

I just moved here in October to start school at UCLA.

And because I don't initiate conversations,

I make friends really slowly.

I still find it very hard to, like, if there's a woman I find

attractive, like in my classes or in any kind of situation,

to initiate something.

I'm always hoping that...

You know, that a woman will initiate things herself.

MAUREEN SULLIVAN: Well, touching is one, probably the best way

that I know of communicating to someone,

particularly tender feelings and sexual feelings,

intimate feelings.

KIPPER: And that's by far the thing

I have the most anxiety about.

Yeah.

And simple touching is what almost

everybody starts out with.

You just don't take off your clothes and jump on top of her.

KIPPER: Yeah, I know that. So I think, OK.

You know, like, I'm sitting next to this woman

who is interested in me.

And we're at a movie theater.

And it's pretty obvious that she wants me to initiate something.

So all I have to do is sort of take her hand or something.

MAUREEN SULLIVAN: Then you touch it.

And I can't do it.

MAUREEN SULLIVAN: Let me take your hand.

From the beginning, with sex therapy,

we teach our clients to touch for their own pleasure.

See, I'm sitting here right now, involved

in playing with the hair on your arm and touching your shirt,

because I wanted to see if it was kind of flannel or cotton

or whatever. It's not going to turn you on...

Absolutely not.

I'm touching you because it feels good to me.

The exercise is called take pleasure,

and you do it first, because it gives you a chance to struggle.

You're going to learn more that way.

You're a real bright guy.

And you... I think you can tackle a challenge.

You don't think you can, in this arena.

But Jesus Christ.

If you skipped high school, you're no dummy.

OK.

I want you to take pleasure in any way

that feels comfortable to you, using my body.

I'll give you the first hint of something you can do

is to take my hand and stroke it for your own pleasure.

Close your eyes and stroke my hand.

Just feel my hand, a nice woman's hand.

I sat there thinking, god, there's so much

to teach this person or help this person with,

or at least expose them to.

I can't teach anybody anything.

All I can do is share.

There was so much to share with him, it's incredible.

I think... I think once he got past this super uptightness

he's got, he would be a real civ.

I can see him as being someone I'd really have fun with.

But he's got... we'd have...

It would take us a while to get there.

NARRATOR: On January 27, 1983, Maureen

was contacted by Michael Freeny, a psychotherapist,

about a client who wanted to work with a surrogate.

The client's 20-year marriage had broken up

two years earlier, and he'd been able to have

only one successful sexual experience since his divorce.

Mr. Freeny arranged for Maureen to meet the client

in his office later that week.

MICHAEL FREENY: Hi, John. - I'm Maureen.

MICHAEL FREENY: This is Maureen Sullivan.

- Hi. - Hi.

MICHAEL FREENY: By way of introduction,

I'll start it off first.

John has essentially had two principal sexual partners

in his life... his wife of 20 years, and after the divorce,

he saw a woman named Susan for a few months.

And they had sexual experiences on two occasions.

And then both of those partners criticized

him for not attending to their needs and being sexually...

Essentially sexually inadequate, in terms of technique,

performance... that is, rapid ejaculation...

And for the size of your penis.

I, right now, have...

You know, I approach women and ask them out and so forth.

And I've had very little success on that account.

And but I had very little incentive within myself,

because I'm afraid that were I to go

any further other than just starting a relationship,

I'm going to flop.

And I don't even want to try it.

MAUREEN SULLIVAN: Mm-hmm.

So I've got to...

I've got to somehow overcome that.

And I don't know what...

What it's going to take.

Some sessions with a surrogate would be very much in order.

JOHN: I would be able to do that, perhaps.

Because then we would have a situation

where it's controlled.

You wouldn't go into the situation

being panicked by rejection.

JOHN: Uh-huh.

You would have somebody who's trained and very professional

in her demeanor, and who's going to give

you very accurate feedback.

And then during the time that you're seeing her

for those private sessions, you'll also be coming back

to me, and we can discuss what occurred

on a real immediate basis.

MAUREEN: Any other questions?

No.

MAUREEN: I can't think of anything either.

MICHAEL: I can't think of anything.

MAUREEN: Ah. MICHAEL: Oh.

MAUREEN: VD. - Uh-huh.

MAUREEN: Have you talked about that with him?

MICHAEL: Oh, no.

MAUREEN: Oh, goody.

I think I'll run through the whole... the whole story here.

MICHAEL: Sure.

I've had problems with vaginal infections

for the last couple of years.

And they've been... they've been a real burden on me.

I finally got to a good specialist

who said, well, I think all your clients should wear rubbers.

- Oh, really. - Hold on.

Listen to the story.

NARRATOR: Since completion of this film,

the International Professional Surrogate Association,

responding to the AIDS epidemic, now

recommends that safe sex be practiced

at all times between surrogate and client,

and that no exchange of bodily fluids occur.

So what I decided is the most practical thing to do

is that every one of my clients get checked.

And if they have intercourse with someone else,

either they use a rubber with the other person,

or they use a rubber with me.

So we keep the environment clean, so to speak.

And with my personal contacts, I...

I use a condom.

I don't think it's fair to ask to go out and get checked,

and then I have intercourse with somebody

and bring something into our relationship,

or relationships with my other clients.

Isn't it within the realm of reality that...

That you would establish a relationship

that you would want to continue with someone

that you met like this?

Is there some reason why...

Would I want to...

Is there some reason why it absolutely must be concluded,

and even if you happened to...

Whatever "fall in love" means...

Fall in love with someone that you

were working with, would you...

Do you prescribe and preclude that as a possibility?

Well...

I'm not speaking for myself. I'm just asking.

I have... yeah, I feel like...

I feel like I fall in love with some of my clients.

And it's sometimes difficult for me to end.

I get real attached to somebody.

I was wondering about that.

I mean, I would presume that you would.

MAUREEN: Yeah.

Um, I mean, you probably know this,

but I think it needs to be said that our relationship will be

over when the therapy is over.

And we can talk about it anytime along the way.

If you feel like you're falling in love, let's talk about it.

Mm-hmm.

MICHAEL: And you and I will talk about it.

Yeah.

OK.

MAUREEN: And it's OK to fall in love.

You just have to keep it in perspective.

I think it's really...

I think it's nice to fall in love,

or at least have loving feelings.

I don't want to make this a mechanical relationship.

[chuckles]

INTERVIEWER: Do you like being in love?

Is it something you aim for?

Mm-mm.

I don't aim to be in love.

I aim to be healthy and not needy and not...

I mean, that's not saying that being in love is needy.

But it certainly falls together with me.

Often, when I fall in love, I get real clingy.

I want to always be with that person

and always do things together and never make decisions

on my own and make him a priority as much as myself,

and then I don't take care of other things.

So I'm not real good at being in love.

I have a lot of growing up to do.

I'm not even close to getting married yet.

INTERVIEWER: Do you think your work gets in the way of that?

Uh-uh.

INTERVIEWER: What do you think your work does for you?

I think it helps me learn about relationships

and be with...

I think that's why I'm in it.

I think I need so much to learn that I have

to practice 10 times a week.

[laughs]

May I look into your eyes?

Uh, yes.

Thank you.

I mean, not over yet.

[laughs]

But I have to, you know...

It's really hard for me to keep looking at you.

You don't have to look into my eyes.

You just let me look into yours.

[laughs] OK.

Yeah.

When it becomes uncomfortable, you just look away.

This is for me to enjoy your eyes.

OK.

OK?

This is the toughest one.

Yeah.

[laughs]

Now it's your turn.

Let's see.

I'll choose something that's not so hard at first.

Uh, may I look at your hair.

Mm-hmm.

OK.

Can I look at your lips?

Yes.

May I touch your upper arm?

MAUREEN: Uh-huh.

OK.

MAUREEN: May I touch your forehead?

Yeah.

MAUREEN: Thank you.

May I touch your...

What would you call it... your calves...

The lower part of your leg?

You want my jeans up or down?

Well, I guess up.

Although it's more embarrassing too.

A woman's legs feel a lot different than men's.

I wish that was something that regularly happened to me.

I'm still having a sense of missed opportunities that...

25 years old.

You know, I could have had...

By this time, I could have had that a lot.

Instead, I've hardly experienced it at all.

Glad you're not one of my 40-year-old virgins.

KIPPER: Yeah, that must be pretty grim.

Yeah.

Half a life has gone by.

I felt more aware of the cameras and lights stuff than...

Then I had the last sessions.

But, um, you know, it's OK after a while, I just stop...

Stop thinking about it that much.

So it takes 10, 15 minutes to let go of it and then it just...

Yeah.

disappears for you.

Yeah.

But we're pretty much in the same setting we normally are.

Mm-hmm.

You know?

Pretty much.

Yeah.

So you want to fill me in on what's going on?

- Well, um... - I'm all excited.

Yeah.

Well, you know, Mo thought the session went very well.

I thought it went pretty well.

Yeah.

We talk about every part of the body that's visible...

At least almost every part...

From head to toe.

I don't want you to skip anything that's...

That you're aware of, starting right from your hair

all the way down to your toes.

And I want you to talk about how it looks to you,

not what you project other people think it looks like,

and how it feels.

And if you need to touch yourself

as you're doing that to remind yourself how it feels, fine...

And how it functions.

Did you scratch yourself?

Looks like a scratch.

Oh, that's from a bull in...

- A what? - in Spain.

- Oh, yeah? - Yeah.

You don't say.

KIPPER: Almost got gored.

So I stand up here.

You get to... you get to stand up, yeah.

OK.

MAUREEN: Stand up a little closer to it.

So we just sort of talk about...

MAUREEN: Mm-hmm.

How it looks, feels, and functions.

Well, my hair...

MAUREEN: To you.

Yeah.

My hair, I feel sort of ambivalent about it.

I like the way it feels.

I usually don't like the way it looks, because I think it's

always sticking out too much.

My teeth, I don't like these two big front teeth.

I think they're too crooked.

Um, well, one thing I don't like, in profile,

is that I seem to sway forward in this... this part of my body.

You know, the stance should be like this

and I'm always like that.

And then my rear end, what I don't like...

That's one of the parts I like least about my body.

Because it seems to stick out way too much.

And I read that that's one of the parts...

That's the sexual part of the body

that women are most interested in in men.

And they like them to be really flat there.

And so...

MAUREEN: Mm.

I disagree with flat butts.

How... what would you rate yourself from one to 100,

or one to 10.

It doesn't make any difference.

So, like, five is average and...

MAUREEN: It's whatever you say it is.

Um, six.

MAUREEN: I... I... I would give you higher scores.

Yeah, well, most people, yeah, tell me that my... you know,

I'm too...

I have a too poor image of...

Yeah, it's not real hot.

Because I think you've got an extremely nice body.

Really?

And I can't believe you give it a six!

Well, at least...

Well, you'd say extremely nice?

MAUREEN: I would give you a nine!

I don't see anything wrong with your body at all.

Well, it's not... It's not muscular.

MAUREEN: Well, if you want to... - [chuckles]

MAUREEN: Is there a perfect body?

I don't know.

I never thought of it that way.

MAUREEN: [laughs] I mean, what's there to improve on your body?

Um, yeah.

Actually, from being in locker rooms and things like that

and seeing pictures, I actually say

that my penis looks better than average... um, slightly,

you know.

But...

And I know I remember when I was about 12 or 13,

I read somewhere what the average length was.

I measured it and everything just to see how it was.

And it was just exactly the average size.

MAUREEN: Oh, good.

It's good we don't have that as a hang-up.

I guess what I like overall about my face

is that it's really crooked.

[laughs] And I decided I like it being crooked.

I got a crooked jaw.

See, it's really crooked there.

It looks like a Mack truck ran over my face when I was born.

And I have crooked nostrils.

And one eye is smaller than the other.

And this side of my lip is, like,

smaller, except with lipstick on, I can fix that.

Uh, I think, gee, with such a crooked face,

it still turned out, you know?

I mean, you can...

I mean, you can anything so it's an advantage, right?

And so that's what I've done, is that, in spite

of being crooked, it's good.

Um, I don't like my bathing suit line.

I much prefer just being tan.

My breasts are a little crooked.

That's kind of OK.

I like my large nipples.

And I... my... my breast size is OK.

It, um... if they had to be bigger or smaller,

I'd rather they were smaller.

And when I... when I, you know, weight lift, then they... they...

They're not quite so saggy.

I like how sturdy my body is.

It's... it's... it's definitely a good athletic body.

I keep using "Playboy" as the measure for what

a good woman's body is.

And when I was in Kona and I saw all

these women running in the triathlon,

I realized that it's not...

A good athletic body is not going

to be the body that's going to look good in "Playboy."

And that hadn't occurred to me before.

I wanted both.

I wanted to look real athletic, but I

want to look like "Playboy."

These women running... Running in the triathalon,

and, like, they had bodies like me... and they looked...

They looked in control somehow.

They looked like they had control of themselves.

They felt... they looked powerful and assertive and kind

of in charge.

Just ordinary working...

Working people.

I work for Sears, and she babysits.

And, uh, other than that, we're just average, uh...

Average neighbors.

ROSY: [chuckles] Yeah.

We... go ahead.

We... we've seen things in the neighborhood.

We'd see guys come out with towels,

and like they were just taking a shower,

and we wondered what was going on over there.

Or they'd come in with their briefcase

or sort of an overnight bag.

And we didn't know whether she was a prostitute

or, you know just kind of...

[giggles]

[laughs] Well, we didn't...

Whether... we didn't know exactly what she did.

We just... we guessed a lot.

The only time I could say I see people coming and going

is if I'm at the front door looking out.

Here comes the big cat.

[laughs] My lucky cat.

And that... you know, that's all.

Because I work at home too..

And most the parents that I work for...

I'm in day care.

And there's a lot of kids at the house during the daytime.

My parents know about Mo, and they don't mind it either.

You know, especially with the kids being here and stuff,

they feel the same way I do.

She works, and that's her type of business.

I work.

That's my type of business.

I... I think that my penis is small,

compared to the ones I've seen on other people,

on friends, or men in the restrooms, everywhere.

I have never seen anyone with a penis as small as this.

And right now, it's larger than it

is under normal circumstances.

My sermon about penises is that, uh,

the biggest difference in penis size is when men are flaccid.

I don't know if you know that or not.

I mean, a penis your size can be six inches hard

and a penis your size can be three inches hard.

I think a six-inch cock is a big cock.

OK. But mine...

MAUREEN: Usually, they say six inches is average.

Uh-huh.

MAUREEN: There's not many eight-inchers around either.

Erect.

MAUREEN: I'd be real surprised Yeah, erect.

I'd be real surprised.

They just don't come that big.

Mm-hmm.

MAUREEN: My vagina...

The length is nowhere near as important, apparently,

at least to the two people I know

most intimately, as diameter.

MAUREEN: I'll tell you, for me, it's neither one.

Mm-hmm. OK.

MAUREEN: My vagina is four and a quarter inches long.

And they also say that tall women have longer vaginas.

Uh-huh.

Well, you're probably not going

to run into somebody who's got a vagina any longer than mine.

Uh-huh.

Four inches, I don't think you've

got anything to worry about.

I'm pretty well satisfied with my body.

And you people are slowly but surely convincing me that

even the thing that I'm not satisfied with...

Namely, my penis...

Is something that I should be, that is satisfactory.

And we'll see.

As time goes on, we'll find out.

MICHAEL: Mo mentioned that, uh, it looked like a normal penis

to her. - Well, that's good to hear.

I mean, that... that... That's something that I...

That I had to hear, that I had to know from somebody other

than the two who have commented on it's not being.

They must have known supermen.

They must know supermen.

I don't know.

Yeah, I went into the therapy... one of... one

of the thoughts in the back of my mind, of course,

has always been that...

[clears throat]... that if I could become

the physical lover that you seek, um,

maybe I could talk you into bed again.

[laughs]

I don't think I'm going to move backwards in this world.

You... [clears throat] our divorce

was predicated upon not only the sexual

inadequacy you experienced.

GRACE: Not only that.

That was not among the 10 most prevalent...

Most pertinent reasons for divorce.

JOHN: It was not among the 10 most pertinent reasons?

Mm-hmm. JOHN: Oh.

Can you verbalize a primary reason?

How many people are listening?

You're a slob.

JOHN: I'm a slob.

OK.

That's more important than...

Did it take you 20 years to notice I was a slob?

No.

It took me 20 years to realize I couldn't do anything about it.

JOHN: Oh.

You talk as if this was a very important...

GRACE: Look.

I don't ever say that sex is not an important part in marriage.

It is absolutely very important.

JOHN: Of course.

And therefore, a very important part of... of...

Of your divorce.

Therefore, not necessarily...

That was not...

JOHN: less than...

I could have gotten a divorce our second year of marriage,

our third year of marriage, our fifth year,

our tenth year if the reason for divorce would have been sex.

Well... well, in our second or third

or fourth year of marriage, you never

conveyed that to me in any way.

In the second, third, or fourth year of our marriage,

we were in the years of 1961, 1962, 1963.

And in those years, we did not have, as women, the liberty

to complain about certain things,

such as how we were not receiving what we were supposed

to be receiving in bed.

In fact, the books that came out during that period of time

said, hey, uh, forget it.

I mean, it's going to take you 35 minutes to have an orgasm,

you know?

You can't expect your husband to be that long in time

before ejaculation, so forget it.

Forget it.

He wants to be this... this passionate, out of control guy.

And so basically, I'm... - Well, halfway, yeah.

Like, that's... you know, if we could switch

parts of our brains, sort of.

Because he... he's too uncontrolled and...

And compulsive and everything, and I'm too

controlled and avoiding things.

He'll jump into something unadvisable,

where I'll always avoid something,

whether it's advisable or not.

When we were in Spain, I used to try to set him up with girls

that we'd meet in, like, the discoteca...

You know, dance hall and bar.

But... and you know, I always saw that the girls had...

Had a high opinion of Kipper.

It's just that, again, you know, he didn't make any

of those necessary first moves.

So sometimes, I'd feel, you know, it's just futile

for me to try to set him up.

Would you like, um, powder or hand lotion?

Hm.

Lotion.

MAUREEN: OK.

[laughs] Was that hard to answer?

You look real nervous right now.

Well...

MAUREEN: You look scared.

[music playing]

Real nervous on the mat.

I mean, he just looked like he was

ready to jump out of his skin.

And you know, not aware of it.

I mean, his eyes were real fluttery

and his mouth had a lot of tension.

Um, I would like to be more open with him.

What I wish would happen is that I would...

What I realistically wish would happen

is that I would be considerably less resistant or considerably

more able to overcome my resistance to being,

you know, physically affectionate with her.

You know, I didn't...

I didn't say anything about taking initiative.

And I didn't take any initiative, and so...

You know, which I had been hoping I would do, so...

WARREN: What do you mean?

When you say "taking initiative,"

I'm wondering what you mean specifically.

Like touching her in some way or another

without her doing it first, you know.

And so far, I've never been able to do that with anybody.

I've never been willing to do that with anybody.

And I'd like to get over that.

Warren wanted me to give you space to touch, to initiate.

So I'm sitting here waiting.

[laughs] And nothing's happening.

Yeah.

And that's what part of my talking is about,

is about buying time here.

So I feel like I've got two choices.

I can either sit and wait and maybe

keep my mouth shut for a change and not

cover up my uncomfortable feelings with talking,

or I can go ahead and initiate the touching

and get it over with.

I guess it would be better for me, if, you know,

I force myself to initiate it.

But it's just...

I'd like you to put your hand on my knee.

OK.

That other hand might be more comfortable.

Yeah.

[laughs]

I always feel so uncomfortable doing things like this.

How does that feel?

Is it uncomfortable?

No.

It's just, uh, now I'm sort of feeling,

you know, that frustration with myself from the last session.

You know, god dammit, why don't you just do this, you know?

I seem to be feeling more this session.

That's good.

Hm.

KIPPER: I'm feeling more self-revealing too.

I know that when I was just starting

to go through puberty and everything,

I went through a really rebellious stage.

And I guess a lot of people do.

But I remember feeling pretty... quite hostile

towards my mother, and, you know,

liking my stepfather much more.

And when they were divorced and I could choose between living

with either one of them, and I had been living with her,

and I chose to live with my stepfather, that

was a pretty negative message to her I was giving.

MAUREEN: You look sad.

Yeah.

Yeah, I feel kind of sad.

Because, you know, what Warren said

made me think that, well, you know,

maybe I haven't realized all this time that there

was this big missing in my...

In my, you know, very early childhood.

You know, and that's... And I can't really

do much about that.

I practiced...

[laughs]... on myself several times this week.

It made me feel...

Tell me, how'd it go?

I was surprised how well...

Well...

[laughs]

On one hand, I'm surprised how...

How well it went, more or less.

That is, I could hold out for a long time, and I could stop,

and I was able to detect the point where I had to stop.

And not once did I...

I tried very hard to get as close as I could,

and not once did I go over.

However, I also was a little disappointed in that it seemed

the reason I wasn't going over and the reason I

wasn't, uh, uh, getting close...

Going too far... was that I had to work in order to remain

erect in the first place.

Now when you went to masturbate the other day,

did you have feelings in your genitals

when you decided to do that?

JOHN: I... I had earlier in the day.

But by the time I got to the bed, no.

Well, there's your answer, kiddo.

Your head told you it was time to masturbate, not your body.

Mm-hmm. Right.

Oh, no question about that. I agree.

OK.

That's an important point.

A lot of people have intercourse because their head says,

well, I went on a date, and this is part one...

Right. I often... right.

and we should be.

Have no feelings of arousal whatsoever.

Mm-hmm.

And then try to have sex and can't get it up and haven't

the faintest idea why.

Not the faintest.

Oh, did you try using oil?

I used, uh... oh, what do you call it...

Vaseline, uh, lotion.

OK.

OK.

You know, um, experiment around with those two.

Vegetable oil works fine.

And it's cheaper too. [laughs]

Yeah. Right.

And it's... you know, it's right in the cupboard.

Because it bothers me to use that lotion.

[laughs] - Oh, god.

You cheapskate.

You won't even use good hand lotion on your own cock.

[laughs]

[laughs] Is that how you treat your penis?

Get the cheapest shit you can buy in the grocery store.

[laughs] Anyway, vegetable oil is good.

And it's cheap, right?

OK, if you run out of vegetable oil, you can try mayonnaise.

That's one I've heard.

[laughs] Oh, yeah, right.

I'm going to use mayonnaise.

MAUREEN: Right.

Well, maybe the cheap stuff.

OK, the squeeze is just going like that.

Uh-huh. I know that.

OK.

And it will work if you've got your timing right.

JOHN: Right.

If you've got your timing right.

I mess it up one third of the time.

Ah, that's too much.

You should get it down to only missing it once every 10 times.

I'd like you to try masturbating... are

you going for about 15 minutes?

JOHN: I don't know.

It doesn't matter how many times you squeeze.

Your penis will eventually get used

to being hard and not cumming.

That's what we're teaching your penis to do.

I try to...

My... my timing mechanism is Johnny Carson's monologue.

If I can make it through that, I think I've done pretty well.

MAUREEN: Well, that's your first mistake.

You shouldn't be watching his monologue at all.

[laughs]

MAUREEN: Television off.

Absolutely off.

Uh-huh.

Put your trust in on the squeeze

or to stop-start method.

Go ahead and fantasize.

Do whatever you do normally.

It works.

How's that feel?

It feels great.

It feels good.

MAUREEN: Pressure too light?

It could be harder?

No, not too light.

It's... it's nice.

MAUREEN: And you like it over here on this side?

Like that?

Like that, it's great.

MAUREEN: OK, like that.

Oh, yes.

If, by chance, you feel like you're

going to get close to cumming, give me plenty of leeway.

Don't get it right to the edge.

Uh-huh.

JOHN: We're getting close.

OK.

Should I just go ahead and squeeze?

JOHN: I don't think it's time to squeeze yet.

OK.

I'm not sure I'm going to be able to cut this off.

MAUREEN: What do you mean, "cut it off?"

I mean, I...

I... I'm not sure I'm going to feel the point where you're

going to have to squeeze. Because...

MAUREEN: Should I squeeze?

depending upon what you do, I can... you know, right now,

that... that could last forever.

But when you're doing this, I...

I'm not sure where...

MAUREEN: You're doing well.

Most premature ejaculators would have

had to have a squeeze by now.

Uh-huh.

MAUREEN: Or a squeeze, like, every three strokes.

OK, you better squeeze now.

MAUREEN: OK.

[exhales]

MAUREEN: You're doing good.

You're doing really good.

I don't think you're going to have any problem.

Yeah, I... I'm doing it because I want to do it.

And if... and there's just not enough

time to have a relationship.

It's like a kid going to med school.

I mean, I don't think it's unreasonable to think

that they may not have a relationship going.

Because we all know that, when you're in med school,

you're studying eight hours a day

and going to classes eight hours a day,

and then doing rounds at the hospital.

And we say, oh, that's OK.

He's got a goal.

And... and to accomplish that goal,

you have to kind of let go of other things.

INTERVIEWER: See, some people say...

If a woman does that...

INTERVIEWER: Yeah.

it's like, well, she's avoiding a relationship,

she's doing this, she's a lesbian.

[groans] You know.

And I'm deciding that it's OK to be who I am, regardless

of the pressure that I get for not

being an adequate human being because I

don't have a boyfriend.

One of the, uh, women, in my, um, group therapy is really

voluptuous and everything.

And she... and really outgoing and everything.

She gave me her phone number a long time ago.

And I, finally, a couple of days ago,

got up the courage to call her.

I mean, that's pretty good.

You joined a social club and you called a woman.

I'm impressed.

You got a car and...

Yeah.

You've come a long way in a couple of months.

OK, so now we're going to sexological.

Talk to me more about vaginas. - Um...

MAUREEN: For your... for your...

You know, for your information, but also, it's

interesting to me.

Because I'm not a man, and...

And I don't know...

You know, the more I know about how men

think about vaginas, good and bad, the better understanding

I have.

Yeah.

Well, like I told Warren, I always thought that, um...

That, you know, it was a turn-on to see a vagina and everything,

but they also looked gross.

I don't know.

It seems to me that...

That most men would say that, you know,

that, yeah, it's a turn-on and everything,

but it does look kind of ugly.

MAUREEN: I don't know.

That's not what I hear.

Of course, who's going to tell you...

I mean, it wouldn't be very nice for guys to be like,

oh, you're... you're gross.

I mean, a therapy situation is fine,

but it wouldn't be to their benefit to say

that in a lovemaking situation.

I mean, you wouldn't say that either.

You wouldn't get very far.

Um, but I get a lot...

I get a lot of men saying they really like the way

my vagina looks.

And my sense is that, in a real abstract way,

I guess you could say vaginas are gross,

and that women would say the same thing about penises...

You know, all that stuff hanging down

between their legs and hairy.

You know, that's how my mom used to talk.

I think my mom had a lot of difficulty with sex.

I think people that have got their sex act together

basically think that genitals are very appealing.

What's it feel like?

It feels warm and, you know, lumpy, and...

Warm and slippery are the main ones.

MAUREEN: Mm-hmm.

And like, yeah, that it's very flexible.

It could expand a lot.

Does it seem like a nice place to put your penis?

Yeah.

MAUREEN: That there's no rough edges and it's...

It's going to be big enough that you could

put your penis all the way in.

Yeah, just... yeah, it's designed for that...

MAUREEN: Yeah.

among other things.

Do you feel a hard thing back there,

like the back... like, it feels like the tip of your nose?

I think you're on it?

Gotta be.

That can't be my uterus.

Oh, yeah.

That's it.

That's my ovary.

Ovaries feel like testicles.

OK.

Bring your fingers out a little bit.

They don't need to be that far in.

And push down more.

Open that vagina right up.

OK.

Actually not quite that much.

There you go.

Nope, nope.

The other... that way.

Bring it out a little bit.

About like so.

Bring the handle closer to my butt.

Now how would you describe it?

Oh, it's sort of like a...

Your cave, you know?

That last session and this session

are the first time that I've seen, you know,

close-up, real vagina.

WARREN: Was it... was it a useful experience?

Yeah, I think it was.

I mean, like, just for, you know,

when I do get involved in some kind of sexual relationship,

I will know...

I mean, just anatomically, I will know some things

about, you know, what are the sensitive areas

and where things are.

And now do you have any thoughts about that?

How...

Well, just these unconnected thoughts about how...

Hey, look, I'm doing this thing, you know, that I

haven't ever done before.

And, um, you know, it's a pretty normal thing to do actually.

Yeah.

Do you know what a speculum is?

No idea.

It's like what the gynecologist uses.

And I stuck that in her vagina. - A what?

What's it called?

Speculum.

And I probed around and stuff.

You mean, like when...

When they do pregnancy testing and they put them up on the...

Well, she didn't put her feet up on stirrups or anything.

Yeah, the stirrups.

Yeah, well, you probably know a lot more about anatomy

than I do.

I mean, to me, all that is something,

you know, moist and sought after in the dark, preferably

under a lot of, uh, sheets and cushions and blankets.

If I ever, you know, bed down with somebody,

I'll have a better idea of, you know, what...

You know, what turns them on.

So...

But fumbling around is part of the romance of it all.

Remember, my taboo argument... That it has to be, you know,

about one fourth taboo.

Oh, yeah.

We were talking about that to some length.

I was talking about that with Mo to some length.

And she was... she thought that that was a,

you know, strange idea, that most of her partners, it was...

It was all just for the sensation of it

and not because of any taboo thing.

Anyway, what's... what's on the agenda for your next session?

[music playing]

MAUREEN: It's nice to be able to get to a point

with clients where you can roll and play and kiss and hug

and make love and have sex or whatever

and feel real easy with it all.

INTERVIEWER: Do you think you enjoy sex

when you're with a boyfriend?

Yeah.

I... yeah.

I don't think that.

I know that.

I don't do it if I don't enjoy it.

INTERVIEWER: And what is it about it you like?

About sex? INTERVIEWER: Yeah.

The closeness.

The physical feeling.

I like the feeling inside my vagina.

I like the eroticism of thinking of a penis inside me.

So we will, um...

Oh, well, I might as well say, since I said it to...

To, uh... to Michael, and he told me to say

so, but I decided not to...

And you know what I'm going to say, I think.

I am... I am going...

I am certain that I am going to be

reticent to give up the relationship completely

at the end.

MAUREEN: Oh.

I... you know, that caught me off guard.

Because I guess Michael mentioned it briefly to me.

JOHN: Mm-hmm.

Um, talk a little more about that to me.

Because I mean, you haven't mentioned that to me.

So it's kind of a secondhand.

So I'm hearing your conclusion.

I want to hear some more stuff in the middle.

I like you.

I like you very much.

And I'd like to... You know, I'd like

to see you outside of this...

In fact, even now.

But I find that...

I find that difficult, probably.

And, uh... and I...

You know, it's beyond your...

I'm certain... I have a feeling within me that...

That the... the...

The connection I feel between us is...

Is closer than the client relationship

that you ordinarily have.

Mm-hmm.

And that pleases me, and I like it,

and I'd like to pursue it.

I'm, of course, afraid to.

Yeah, it's real scary to.

Let me talk a little bit about feeling

like our relationship is closer than the average client

sort of relationship.

How I relate to it is how I feel about my therapist.

I know she likes me better than any of her other clients.

[laughs] OK.

MAUREEN: If that's my fantasy, that's fine.

I've never checked it out in reality.

Most of my relationships with my clients are very similar to...

As they are with you.

When he said... when he thought he was real special to me,

that we had a special relationship,

I didn't know if I should not touch that or do.

But since I don't feel that way about him,

I'm not even remotely close to him being special, as far as us

being really nifty together.

I mean, as far as this whole project,

what I said was really true.

And so I didn't want to kind of lead him on.

I still feel guilty somehow not connecting with him

as much as I'd like to.

MICHAEL: You feel guilty?

Yeah.

MICHAEL: As if you're supposed to

and you're fighting it somehow?

Like I should be better.

Like I should be more understanding

or more sympathetic or more open to his needs.

Um...

MICHAEL: But it's not sorry that it didn't happen.

It's guilty that it didn't happen.

Yeah.

It's more guilty.

MICHAEL: It's almost like you dropped the ball.

Yeah, and I feel...

[clears throat]... I feel kind of bitchy around him.

I think that's what I felt guilty about, that that's not

real conducive to being close.

I don't know.

I'm... I'm kind of confused about the relationship

I've established with her.

MICHAEL: How so?

You're thinking an awful lot.

Yeah, because I...

I'm finding it difficult to...

To... to express exactly what I want to say.

Uh, I feel that there should be somebody in my life

with whom I have a close physical relationship.

MICHAEL: Sounds reasonable. - Yeah, right.

And there isn't.

MICHAEL: And right now, Maureen is it.

Maureen is it.

Right.

Her role of surrogate is taking on, realistically,

the breadth of what it really means.

She is a surrogate partner.

JOHN: Uh-huh.

She is not just a surrogate sex partner.

JOHN: Right.

She is a surrogate lover in all the definitions

of the word or the term.

And right now, you're beginning to invest

a lot of your emotions in here.

I think she's a source of confidence, of reassurance,

of validation, of recognition, of recreation.

And as she fills those needs in you,

you don't need to keep searching for these other...

From the other sources.

JOHN: Yeah.

But she's not going to be around that long.

JOHN: That's right.

And I suppose the whole thing could straighten out

if I meet some other people.

MICHAEL: Mm-hmm.

It could help a lot.

Yeah.

That's what I've got to do.

[laughs] I like my dad.

I always... I always brag about my dad.

[laughs] He spoils me rotten.

Gail's hardly around, so he can't spoil her as much.

Well, he could.

[laughs]

Just a little.

No, I'm just kidding.

But he does.

Yeah, he's a...

He's a kid at heart himself.

[laughs] Because he's around so many kids all the time.

He feels young, you know, energetic.

He is full of life.

And he wants to do all these things.

He's not interested in, let's say,

staying at home all the time and just sitting

in front of the TV like a lot of other people

his age or whatever.

But his mistake is, he's trying to reach

out to the younger generation, because that's how he feels.

But I feel that, what, instead, he should do

is reach out for somebody else his own age

who also feels that way.

And there should be lots.

And there's got to be lots of them out there.

And I don't see... and I really think that is

a great problem with him.

Because he's out looking for some younger...

KAREN: Right.

you know, more energetic lady.

But they aren't looking for him.

KAREN: No, they aren't.

That's a cute little... what's that?

Oh.

[laughs] That's, uh...

I was at LA County Museum of Art yesterday, and that's the pin.

How was it?

The museum?

Yeah.

It was great.

The company was wonderful.

It was really good.

And who did you go with?

Lisa!

Marie.

Is she from the...

[inaudible] Institute, yes.

Very good.

Well, now tell me about it.

Uh, it was, uh, a very pleasant time.

And she's a terrific woman.

And I'm very happy that I... that I met her.

MAUREEN: That's neat.

JOHN: [laughs] Oh, its great.

MAUREEN: Did you do any touching?

JOHN: Oh, god.

Again, as usual, I kicked myself after it was over.

It was obvious to me that she would have responded very

nicely to my taking her hand.

I know she would have.

But I wasn't absolutely sure.

Although I was... there was 99% certainty in my mind,

there was that little 1% that kept telling me,

I just don't know.

Should I or shouldn't I? And I couldn't do it.

I couldn't get my hand over and take her hand.

Well, if, next time you go out,

you still have some anxiety about touching her,

and you can't bring yourself to touching her...

And it really would be appropriate to hold hands or

have a hug or a kiss goodbye...

Share those feelings with her.

JOHN: Tell her?

Yeah.

I'm a little scared about, you know, being physical with you.

You know, how do you feel about that?

She looked uncomfortable too.

And I could tell that she was... the same thing

was going through her mind.

And perhaps I should share that.

OK, I'll try.

I don't know.

Um, I have notes here. JOHN: Oh, good.

[laughs]

MAUREEN: This book's almost done.

Focus on Mo first.

Genitals with lots of feedback.

Remember not to go that far in.

Most of the feeling's on the outside.

What happens when you go in far, I...

I can feel my body tensing up to defend against, you know...

Intrusion.

MAUREEN: Yeah, or anything like that.

And my... my coordination is so lousy...

MAUREEN: What?

it always has been...

That trying to do two...

MAUREEN: Well, then we can just do one...

At once...

MAUREEN: if one works better for you.

is a problem.

MAUREEN: Well, I have a feeling it's...

It's a lack of practice.

JOHN: Oops, I'm going the wrong way.

[laughs] Let's see here.

Wait, let me... JOHN: Start like this.

All right. Let's see.

We start like this.

And we should kind of just go in and out.

That's perfect.

I mean, it took him a long time to get the rhythm.

And I don't know why.

And it's not really important. He's got it.

And now, I think he knows what we're talking about.

I've never really had to do so much hand-guiding before.

But you know, that's... that's... That's OK.

INTERVIEWER: Is it better for you

when you're working to get turned on?

Mm, I don't know if it's better.

It's... it's, in some ways, more enjoyable.

I'm... I'm happy when I do, that I have the experience

of experiencing that, and my clients

have the experience of being with me when I'm turned on.

It's not really an issue with my clients...

Not as much as an issue as it is with my personal partners.

It does feel like a real issue here.

This really is a more profound experience than I'm allowing

myself to... to... to believe.

I'm going to be real happy when it's done.

Here.

I'm not going to be taking a freight train.

Uh-huh.

Well, it's not bad once in a while

if you get a boxcar that's...

Or a reefer.

DON: What do you think of Mo...

What?

DON: being a surrogate?

I mean, do you think she's a hooker?

Do you think she's a hooker?

I don't know anything about it,

if you want to tell the truth.

MAUREEN: But you keep saying that every time we

tell you what it is.

I mean, six years later, you're still saying,

I don't know anything about it. - I really don't know.

MAUREEN: For something so well read, it's interesting.

I don't know what the whole field is.

I do not know.

A hooker's got nothing to do with Freud.

MAUREEN: I'll tell you what I do.

I work with men who have sexual dysfunctions as their partner.

And I practice sex with them, and I practice social skills,

and I practice communicating, and I practice teaching them

how to love people.

DON: So many words.

MAUREEN: I figure if I practice it enough, maybe I'll catch on.

DON: Yourself. [laughs]

MAUREEN: [laughs]

DON: Practice makes perfect.

MAUREEN: Mm-hmm.

And I think I do it because I don't know how to love.

Because I don't think I saw much of it.

There's got to be a better way than, you know,

punching somebody in the mouth.

There's got to be.

Well... well, I always remember you

as being pretty much of a good father

to me when I was younger.

I mean, you and me had a lot in common.

We did a lot of things together.

We did, you know, a lot of fishing trips up north

and we had a lot of good memories.

But you know, these bad memories, you know,

are the ones that keep arising.

It's like a horse.

You know, they say you could beat a horse.

You know, it'll always remember you.

And even though you never beat...

You know, you never struck me or you never hit me or anything,

you know, when you see your father taking his fest

and fucking just beat the shit out of your mother, you know...

You know, I'm sorry, Dad, but it's, uh...

You know, to have your sister, and...

I mean, me and my sister are so close.

I mean, that's something that brought us so close together.

Because we were the only ones we had.

You didn't know what was going on.

Don't know where to start.

I really don't.

But let's see if we can make certain steps.

I would, and I don't even know how to start.

I mean, I feel like a prostitute walking into a Catholic church.

I'm lost.

MAUREEN: You know, it certainly isn't all your fault.

And I think I'm still lashing back at all the hurt

that I felt from when I was a kid.

And like, today, you make more sense to me

than I ever heard you say...

DON: Yeah.

the last 10 years.

So we're really dealing here with men and your idea of men,

particularly your idea of...

Of... of your relationship with your father.

Um, he called the other night.

RUTH: Why do you think you're thinking about your dad?

Well, he's drinking again, really bad.

And I had this really...

I had a dream about making love with him that's...

I mean, I know the dream's not about that literally.

But it's... you know, it's... It's really disturbing to me.

RUTH: What do you think that dream

of making love with your father is really about?

[sighs]

It's about wanting him to love me.

RUTH: Mm-hmm.

If you make love with someone, well,

it's like internalizing it.

If I'm going to... you know, like, when you made

this cup of coffee, you put the coffee in, and put it in there,

and it all got mixed up together,

you know, then we have coffee.

And if we put into Maureen the idea of a good father

and we accept that and it gets mixed up,

then you have inside of you the whole idea of a good Maureen

who has power.

[sighs] [sobs]

Do you want them to stop?

(SOBBING) No, that's OK.

That's part of what is the strength of your work,

you know...

All the pain that you had, and how you're

getting richer and fuller, and that you

know yourself now better.

I know.

RUTH: It makes you who you are.

Yeah.

In her surrogate work, I think that she was seeking

a great deal, and still is.

At first, I think she was seeking a sexual identity.

And what better way to learn how to do these things

than to actually be in a relationship with someone

in her work?

Why is a forester a forester?

I mean, why is a gynecologist a gynecologist, you see?

Because hopefully, they are working out

a lot of their own feelings.

What is that voyeuristic quality of a photographer,

for instance, and what is the photographer

having to work out?

Do you want to talk about ending now?

I mean, um, I guess not.

I was going to wait until closer to the end.

But maybe that's just me avoiding.

Yeah, right.

I... I... I don't want to avoid it.

That's what I was...

My... my predilection before getting here was to avoid it.

And, uh... and I don't want to.

Because I'm going to miss you.

And that hurt for a little while.

I don't know, you know...

What did I do to rationalize the hurt?

I just convinced myself that other things were OK,

that I'd gotten a lot out of it, and that, uh, I'm

pretty happy with myself, generally, these days.

And I too learned a lot.

I dealt with you in my own therapy a great deal.

And I don't know if I talked to you about you

reminding me of my father.

I was learning more from you than most...

Than any client I've had recently... in the last six

months or a year.

And this whole thing has brought everything

right up to the surface.

And, uh...

That's great.

MAUREEN: I had to examine my feelings.

So...

It's taught a lot for me too, of course.

You know, I feel a lot better about what I'm going into

and where I'm going from here.

Mm.

It's over.

And that's too bad.

But, uh, it was...

It was a... a rewarding experience, unquestionably.

Uh, I've learned an awful lot about myself.

And I think that's the most important thing that I've done.

Uh, I came in feeling awful low.

I'm coming out feeling almost exhilarated.

INTERVIEWER: How many cases have you seen in your career?

Probably 200 or 300, if I have 10 a week for 50 weeks,

and I see them every...

I don't know.

I figured out it must be 200 or 300.

I don't think anything can take the place of experience

with it.

Um, I'm not... again, uh, I'm not really the one to say.

INTERVIEWER: You must have really

seen a parade of humanity with some people having...

Oh, god.

I mean...

INTERVIEWER: You must have...

I mean, what have you learned about human nature from this?

[laughs] That we're all in the same boat.

I'm willing to, you know, push beyond a little bit.

Yet I'm not sure that's what we need to do.

You know, anyway, I need to talk to you about it,

and what you... what your expectations, what you want

to do today.

I actually haven't even said what I wanted to do.

But those are some of the...

You know, the general concepts of a goodbye session.

Yeah.

Well, you know, obviously, I was thinking that I wanted us,

you know, to have it be different,

because it's the last session, in some way.

Um, you know, I'd like to do...

I don't know... the kinds of things

that make me feel the most sort of close to somebody,

in terms of just, you know, emotional warmth or whatever.

I'm not explaining it well.

But you know, just, like, you know, something like that.

MAUREEN: How can we make this setting romantic?

That's the problem.

In these circumstances, what do you think would help?

[laughs] Music.

[music playing]

MICHAEL: [laughs]

[laughs]

Kipper, I think therapy's working.

[laughs]

So how do you feel about the whole therapy?

I feel really good about it.

Really good.

I mean, if you can caress like this half

the time that you're with somebody,

I mean, what more could you ask for?

I mean, this was hot stuff.

I... [laughs] I mean, this is as good as it ever gets.

Mm.

Anything else?

Well, you know, extremely regretting

that it's the last session.

[laughs] And you know, regretting

that I had been resistant so much during the therapy.

But, um, well, you know, I wish it were just regular sex

therapy, without them filming.

But I realize, you know, that that's the price I pay

for getting such a good deal.

So I just have to deal with the camera being there.

But...

You've done really well.

And now, you know, especially, yeah,

these last couple of weeks...

Like, now, I do think that my body is quite a bit better than

I used to think, and, you know, that... you know,

and I'm a lot more confident that, if I'm in a sexual

relationship, that, you know...

That, you know, I don't have this performance anxiety

so much.

And, uh...

Mm-hmm.

you know, I'm not worried that I'm, you know,

impotent or anything or can't get

it up or anything like that.

No, I wouldn't think you'd have

to worry about being impotent.

[laughs] At least in your words.

And, uh...

OK.

Well...

Share your feelings. Go slow.

And risk a little bit.

Pretty day.

See ya.

No, I won't see you.

Goodbye.

KIPPER: Goodbye.

If I can give them the skeleton of lovemaking,

if I can give them the skeleton of intercourse,

that is the most that I feel I'm going to accomplish

with most clients.

Most of them aren't willing to invest the time or the money

to continue a relationship to that point,

to where it is very much like a regular sexual encounter.

I mean, with my... With my clients,

they're worried about their cock getting hard.

That's their primary concern.

And it's awfully difficult to have them let go of that.

If I can get them to enjoy having an erection

and being able to get into a vagina and ejaculate,

I have done my work.

INTERVIEWER: What about for you though?

Well, I can get into the feeling

of having a penis put inside my vagina and enjoy that.

I don't have to have the rolling and playing and sensuality.

I'm not going to get that with most of my clients.

INTERVIEWER: And when you do, what happens?

That's when I really like it.

I mean, that's when it's really, really fun.

That's when I look forward to seeing a client,

and as soon as they get to the door, I'm jumping on them,

you know.

But the other stuff...

I mean, some people just aren't going to be there.

And I don't see it as my...

My role to necessarily force that on them.

They need to go out there and learn that

with the woman of their choice.

I mean, those are special relationships that

don't happen with everybody.

You know, there's some chemistry going

and something kind of magic.

It happens with more clients than I expect

it to, to tell the truth.

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