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These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated: 1 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:36,800 I want to tell you 2 00:00:36,900 --> 00:00:39,370 about a book that kept me awake for two nights this week 3 00:00:39,470 --> 00:00:40,771 as I read it. 4 00:00:40,871 --> 00:00:42,306 It's one of those you-can't-put-down books. 5 00:00:42,407 --> 00:00:44,409 It was a journey of horror, 6 00:00:44,509 --> 00:00:46,610 of sadism, and perversion. 7 00:00:46,710 --> 00:00:49,447 A story of brutality and death. 8 00:00:49,546 --> 00:00:52,916 It is the story of a woman who wrestled with the Devil... 9 00:00:53,017 --> 00:00:54,252 and won. 10 00:00:58,322 --> 00:01:00,757 Joining me now from Victoria is Michelle Smith, 11 00:01:00,857 --> 00:01:03,560 a one-time victim of abuse by a Satanic cult, 12 00:01:03,660 --> 00:01:05,363 and Dr. Lawrence Pazder, 13 00:01:05,463 --> 00:01:06,763 the psychiatrist 14 00:01:06,863 --> 00:01:08,232 who helped her come to terms with that nightmare. 15 00:01:08,332 --> 00:01:10,867 They are co-authors of the book Michelle Remembers. 16 00:01:10,967 --> 00:01:13,037 The book is called Michelle Remembers. 17 00:01:13,137 --> 00:01:17,275 The authors are Michelle Smith and Lawrence Pazder, M.D., 18 00:01:17,375 --> 00:01:18,575 who, acting as a psychiatrist, 19 00:01:18,675 --> 00:01:20,478 extracted from her 20 00:01:20,577 --> 00:01:24,781 bizarre childhood memories of Satan... 21 00:01:24,881 --> 00:01:26,683 which have shocked many people. 22 00:01:26,783 --> 00:01:28,718 Michelle Smith created a sensation 23 00:01:28,819 --> 00:01:31,522 with her story of abuse at the hands of a Satanic cult. 24 00:01:31,621 --> 00:01:33,990 This was the first publicized account 25 00:01:34,092 --> 00:01:35,259 of such rituals. 26 00:01:35,359 --> 00:01:36,660 Now, you've mentioned evidence 27 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:39,596 which proves some of the early things 28 00:01:39,696 --> 00:01:40,764 you feel that happened to her 29 00:01:40,864 --> 00:01:43,034 as a small child in Victoria, B.C.. 30 00:01:43,134 --> 00:01:45,669 I have to say that the evidence is clear 31 00:01:45,769 --> 00:01:47,704 that this came from an experience 32 00:01:47,804 --> 00:01:48,905 that Michelle had. 33 00:01:49,006 --> 00:01:51,175 Michelle, can I ask you 34 00:01:51,275 --> 00:01:53,643 what it was that, after four years of therapy 35 00:01:53,743 --> 00:01:55,580 and this deep state of consciousness, 36 00:01:55,679 --> 00:01:57,647 that came out of your mind? 37 00:01:57,747 --> 00:02:00,118 Uh, basically, what I remembered 38 00:02:00,218 --> 00:02:03,521 was a 14-month period of my life at age five, 39 00:02:03,620 --> 00:02:06,290 where I was given to a group of people, 40 00:02:06,390 --> 00:02:08,526 whom, at first, I wasn't aware of what they were doing 41 00:02:08,625 --> 00:02:09,993 other than, to a child, 42 00:02:10,094 --> 00:02:12,430 they were adults doing things I couldn't understand, 43 00:02:12,530 --> 00:02:13,464 and it frightened me. 44 00:02:13,564 --> 00:02:14,865 They would put me in cages, 45 00:02:14,965 --> 00:02:17,502 they would sacrifice animals, 46 00:02:17,602 --> 00:02:19,103 they would have a lot of candles, 47 00:02:19,203 --> 00:02:20,104 and chanting, 48 00:02:20,204 --> 00:02:22,772 and bizarre things I had never seen. 49 00:02:22,873 --> 00:02:26,244 Eating feces, and orgies, and-- and, um... 50 00:02:26,344 --> 00:02:27,512 dismembering fetuses-- 51 00:02:27,612 --> 00:02:29,313 these were things that you experienced? 52 00:02:29,413 --> 00:02:30,548 That's right. 53 00:02:30,647 --> 00:02:31,681 Now, when you say something like that, 54 00:02:31,781 --> 00:02:32,983 that's alarming-- I mean, 55 00:02:33,084 --> 00:02:34,751 people get terrified by this sort of thing. 56 00:02:34,851 --> 00:02:38,189 I mean, are they rightfully terrified? 57 00:02:38,289 --> 00:02:39,756 I think that, today, 58 00:02:39,856 --> 00:02:41,892 that it's very, very wise 59 00:02:41,992 --> 00:02:43,461 to take a good, hard look 60 00:02:43,561 --> 00:02:44,895 at where you place your children, 61 00:02:44,995 --> 00:02:46,930 into whose care you place your child. 62 00:03:11,821 --> 00:03:12,889 I have been interested 63 00:03:12,989 --> 00:03:14,592 in the "Satanic Panic" for years-- 64 00:03:14,691 --> 00:03:16,993 I researched it for years... 65 00:03:18,362 --> 00:03:21,632 ...and once I read Michelle Remembers, 66 00:03:21,731 --> 00:03:24,435 I could not get it out of my head. 67 00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:33,810 I did a five-part series on Michelle Remembers. 68 00:03:33,910 --> 00:03:35,680 To me, it was important 69 00:03:35,779 --> 00:03:38,782 to present a discussion about it to people, 70 00:03:38,882 --> 00:03:40,051 because this book 71 00:03:40,151 --> 00:03:42,886 has helped shape the world we now live in, 72 00:03:42,986 --> 00:03:46,657 and whose contents we have to have some understanding of 73 00:03:46,756 --> 00:03:49,694 if we're going to know how we got here, so... 74 00:03:49,793 --> 00:03:51,229 I think of Michelle Remembers 75 00:03:51,329 --> 00:03:54,165 as the "Patient Zero" of the Satanic Panic. 76 00:03:55,533 --> 00:03:56,900 The book begins 77 00:03:57,001 --> 00:04:00,504 when Michelle is in the hospital following a miscarriage, 78 00:04:00,605 --> 00:04:02,340 and Dr. Pazder comes-- 79 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:05,610 because he, in the past, has worked as her therapist-- 80 00:04:05,710 --> 00:04:08,045 and she tells him about a dream 81 00:04:08,145 --> 00:04:11,781 where there's an itchy spot on her hand. 82 00:04:11,881 --> 00:04:15,353 She scratches it, and then... 83 00:04:15,453 --> 00:04:20,057 countless tiny spiders come surging forth, 84 00:04:20,157 --> 00:04:24,528 and she's extremely upset by this dream, 85 00:04:24,629 --> 00:04:28,299 and so he decides, based on this, 86 00:04:28,399 --> 00:04:31,235 that it's time for them to return to therapy. 87 00:04:40,111 --> 00:04:42,380 What went on in your childhood 88 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:43,947 that you discovered? 89 00:04:44,048 --> 00:04:47,752 What, basically, I began to remember 90 00:04:47,884 --> 00:04:49,387 was a series of events that stretched out 91 00:04:49,487 --> 00:04:51,622 over about a 14-month period in my life. 92 00:04:51,722 --> 00:04:53,557 Was this through hypnosis, Doctor, or--? 93 00:04:53,658 --> 00:04:55,092 Actually, it's beyond hypnosis. 94 00:04:55,192 --> 00:04:57,428 It's a method that Michelle had devised 95 00:04:57,528 --> 00:04:59,163 to go deep into her depths. 96 00:04:59,263 --> 00:05:00,531 How had you devised this technique 97 00:05:00,631 --> 00:05:01,565 yourself, Michelle? 98 00:05:01,666 --> 00:05:03,034 It just came about 99 00:05:03,134 --> 00:05:05,636 in the atmosphere of Dr. Pazder saying to me, 100 00:05:05,736 --> 00:05:09,707 "Just go where you have to go. I'll be there with you." 101 00:05:09,806 --> 00:05:11,841 I could then shut my eyes, 102 00:05:11,941 --> 00:05:13,744 and through breathing very deeply, 103 00:05:13,843 --> 00:05:15,646 go way down inside. 104 00:05:15,746 --> 00:05:20,318 It felt very much like falling over backwards into the dark... 105 00:05:20,418 --> 00:05:23,987 and that's where I began to find the memories. 106 00:05:29,393 --> 00:05:33,264 Side "A"-- November 1976. 107 00:06:14,405 --> 00:06:15,740 The first thing I remembered 108 00:06:15,840 --> 00:06:17,842 was a night when a group of people 109 00:06:17,941 --> 00:06:20,544 were gathered to do... 110 00:06:20,644 --> 00:06:21,579 I didn't know what. 111 00:06:21,679 --> 00:06:23,581 They were doing dances 112 00:06:23,681 --> 00:06:26,050 that were not like the dances I was used to. 113 00:06:26,150 --> 00:06:27,752 They had the walls draped in black. 114 00:06:27,852 --> 00:06:29,053 They had set up candles. 115 00:06:32,989 --> 00:06:35,192 My mother was present... 116 00:06:35,292 --> 00:06:36,794 but not in the ceremony, not in the ritual, 117 00:06:36,893 --> 00:06:38,329 she wasn't involved in that. 118 00:06:38,429 --> 00:06:42,666 Her position seemed to be one of giving me to this group. 119 00:06:45,169 --> 00:06:47,671 They were dedicated 120 00:06:47,772 --> 00:06:50,174 to doing a lot of seriously... 121 00:06:50,274 --> 00:06:52,576 frightening kind of things, 122 00:06:52,676 --> 00:06:55,112 and they sacrificed animals, 123 00:06:55,212 --> 00:06:59,583 and they used fetuses of babies in their ceremonies. 124 00:07:13,230 --> 00:07:17,034 No! No! No! 125 00:07:20,838 --> 00:07:22,273 No! 126 00:07:33,017 --> 00:07:34,752 Incredible story. 127 00:07:34,852 --> 00:07:36,387 Tell me about Michelle 128 00:07:36,487 --> 00:07:39,156 and what, in fact, you believe 129 00:07:39,256 --> 00:07:41,358 happened to her as a small child. 130 00:07:41,459 --> 00:07:43,828 Well, I have to back up a little bit. 131 00:07:43,928 --> 00:07:47,498 I knew Michelle very well through four years of therapy, 132 00:07:47,598 --> 00:07:48,866 uh, intensive therapy, 133 00:07:48,965 --> 00:07:50,201 and there was no evidence 134 00:07:50,301 --> 00:07:52,403 of any of this kind of material present, 135 00:07:52,503 --> 00:07:54,371 but I knew her personality and everything. 136 00:07:54,472 --> 00:07:57,641 When she came to me a year after it had been discontinued, 137 00:07:57,741 --> 00:08:00,244 and went into a very deep level of consciousness 138 00:08:00,344 --> 00:08:02,379 and began to relive, essentially-- 139 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:06,684 to see, to hear, to feel, and to tell me in detail-- 140 00:08:06,784 --> 00:08:08,853 these events, for 14 months, 141 00:08:08,953 --> 00:08:10,254 of what happened to her as a child, 142 00:08:10,354 --> 00:08:12,756 it was very difficult for me to... 143 00:08:12,857 --> 00:08:14,658 decide where it was coming from. 144 00:08:16,727 --> 00:08:20,030 Victoria was very small in the 1950s. 145 00:08:20,130 --> 00:08:22,299 I mean, the population was 70,000-- 146 00:08:22,399 --> 00:08:23,434 that's it. 147 00:08:23,534 --> 00:08:24,602 It was safe. 148 00:08:24,702 --> 00:08:26,470 It was quiet. 149 00:08:27,905 --> 00:08:29,807 Tertia's the oldest, 150 00:08:29,907 --> 00:08:32,276 and then Michelle is the middle child, 151 00:08:32,376 --> 00:08:35,012 and I came along five years later. 152 00:08:35,112 --> 00:08:36,914 Tertia was pretty. 153 00:08:37,014 --> 00:08:38,749 Michelle was kind of a fuddy-duddy. 154 00:08:38,849 --> 00:08:40,651 I was gorgeous. 155 00:08:40,751 --> 00:08:42,553 No, I'm just joking! 156 00:08:44,221 --> 00:08:46,390 But Michelle and I were always getting into trouble. 157 00:08:46,490 --> 00:08:50,060 I think that's because we had such an up-and-down childhood. 158 00:08:52,296 --> 00:08:54,031 My mom, she didn't have an easy life, 159 00:08:54,131 --> 00:08:55,199 raising three girls on her own. 160 00:08:55,299 --> 00:08:56,767 I mean, Dad was in and out. 161 00:08:56,867 --> 00:08:59,336 You know, he was an alcoholic, 162 00:08:59,436 --> 00:09:01,405 and he had a gambling problem, so... 163 00:09:02,506 --> 00:09:04,875 When you have a husband that's an alcoholic, 164 00:09:04,975 --> 00:09:06,644 you don't have friends. 165 00:09:06,744 --> 00:09:08,045 You just don't. 166 00:09:08,145 --> 00:09:10,481 So Mom spent a very lonely life. 167 00:09:12,616 --> 00:09:14,485 My sisters talk about it now, and it's-- they always say, 168 00:09:14,585 --> 00:09:16,520 "Well, she always-- she would drink," 169 00:09:16,620 --> 00:09:19,089 and I said... 170 00:09:19,189 --> 00:09:20,858 "You know, if I had three young girls, 171 00:09:20,958 --> 00:09:23,627 and I sat down in the evening and had a cold beer," 172 00:09:23,727 --> 00:09:26,630 you know, "I wouldn't classify that as drinking," you know? 173 00:09:26,730 --> 00:09:29,767 She just, she had a lot on her plate. 174 00:09:31,468 --> 00:09:34,039 We moved eight or nine times in ten years 175 00:09:34,138 --> 00:09:35,306 because of Dad. 176 00:09:35,406 --> 00:09:36,740 Dad was quite violent. 177 00:09:37,975 --> 00:09:42,313 And it always happened Easter, Christmas, Thanksgiving. 178 00:09:42,413 --> 00:09:44,682 We would all end up at a hotel somewhere 179 00:09:44,782 --> 00:09:46,483 because the police would have to come and take us, 180 00:09:46,584 --> 00:09:49,153 because Dad would start to... 181 00:09:49,253 --> 00:09:52,156 terrorize and destroy the house, 182 00:09:52,256 --> 00:09:54,191 and beat my mom up. 183 00:09:54,291 --> 00:09:55,693 That was my childhood. Right? 184 00:09:55,793 --> 00:09:58,729 You know, I just assumed that's what everybody did-- 185 00:09:58,829 --> 00:10:02,033 got drunk and had fights. 186 00:10:02,132 --> 00:10:03,334 I don't know. 187 00:10:39,770 --> 00:10:42,239 Larry liked the limelight. 188 00:10:42,339 --> 00:10:44,241 You know, everybody liked him 189 00:10:44,341 --> 00:10:47,078 and he liked being liked... 190 00:10:47,177 --> 00:10:49,114 and Michelle wasn't like that. 191 00:10:49,213 --> 00:10:52,316 Michelle is like a Puritan, you know? 192 00:10:52,416 --> 00:10:55,419 No off-colour jokes, and... 193 00:10:55,519 --> 00:10:57,022 not really any swearing, 194 00:10:57,122 --> 00:10:59,723 and no alcohol. 195 00:10:59,823 --> 00:11:02,960 But Michelle is 196 00:11:03,061 --> 00:11:03,994 a caring, 197 00:11:04,095 --> 00:11:05,629 loving, 198 00:11:05,729 --> 00:11:07,798 gentle person 199 00:11:07,898 --> 00:11:10,234 who cares about the whole world. 200 00:11:10,334 --> 00:11:15,272 I worked with them for about a year and a half, 201 00:11:15,372 --> 00:11:17,941 and I only did it because I love typing. 202 00:11:19,443 --> 00:11:22,013 Larry had recorded everything that Michelle said 203 00:11:22,113 --> 00:11:24,149 in her reliving process. 204 00:11:32,489 --> 00:11:34,159 He took his reel-to-reels, 205 00:11:34,258 --> 00:11:36,293 put it all on onto cassettes, 206 00:11:36,393 --> 00:11:38,462 and I went through the whole 14 months 207 00:11:38,562 --> 00:11:39,797 from the beginning to the end, 208 00:11:39,897 --> 00:11:43,200 and filled in as much missing words and sounds 209 00:11:43,300 --> 00:11:44,802 as I could. 210 00:11:46,370 --> 00:11:50,441 And so, what Larry did was he clipped out, you know, 211 00:11:50,541 --> 00:11:52,776 excerpts of the typing, 212 00:11:52,876 --> 00:11:54,511 and he would put that, 213 00:11:54,611 --> 00:11:56,847 and then put his own writing underneath it, 214 00:11:56,947 --> 00:11:59,117 and then he'd give it to me, and I'd type it all and-- 215 00:11:59,216 --> 00:12:01,119 and send it off to the publisher. 216 00:12:25,843 --> 00:12:28,146 To be 100% honest with you, 217 00:12:28,245 --> 00:12:31,482 I listened to all the tapes 218 00:12:31,582 --> 00:12:35,352 and I believe that something happened to Michelle. 219 00:12:35,452 --> 00:12:37,755 There isn't much doubt in my mind. 220 00:12:37,855 --> 00:12:41,759 Something definitely happened to her, and... 221 00:12:41,859 --> 00:12:44,528 I do believe 222 00:12:44,628 --> 00:12:47,198 it was a group of Satanists, 223 00:12:47,297 --> 00:12:50,934 and they had her for those 14 months. 224 00:13:07,284 --> 00:13:08,819 As they get deeper 225 00:13:08,919 --> 00:13:13,690 into these memories of Satanic ritual abuse... 226 00:13:13,791 --> 00:13:16,727 Michelle learns that her mother 227 00:13:16,827 --> 00:13:19,730 is not merely dabbling in this social scene. 228 00:13:19,830 --> 00:13:22,167 She gave Michelle to the Satanists 229 00:13:22,267 --> 00:13:24,601 because she is a Satanist. 230 00:13:24,701 --> 00:13:26,436 She belongs to these people. 231 00:13:42,187 --> 00:13:43,687 And essentially, 232 00:13:43,787 --> 00:13:46,291 the bulk of Michelle Remembers 233 00:13:46,390 --> 00:13:49,660 is long descriptions 234 00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:53,997 of a young child being mercilessly tortured. 235 00:14:12,783 --> 00:14:14,451 Dr. Pazder and Michelle 236 00:14:14,551 --> 00:14:16,687 were spending more and more time together. 237 00:14:16,787 --> 00:14:20,557 The sessions are getting up to six hours long. 238 00:14:20,657 --> 00:14:22,593 It's becoming both of their worlds, 239 00:14:22,693 --> 00:14:24,595 and yet, surprisingly, 240 00:14:24,695 --> 00:14:28,966 each of them is going home to a spouse each night-- 241 00:14:29,067 --> 00:14:30,634 Michelle to her husband, Doug, 242 00:14:30,734 --> 00:14:33,971 and Dr. Pazder to his wife, Marylyn. 243 00:14:38,408 --> 00:14:39,977 I met Larry at Michelle's wedding 244 00:14:40,078 --> 00:14:43,314 when she was getting married to Doug Smith. 245 00:14:43,413 --> 00:14:44,681 She loved Doug. 246 00:14:44,781 --> 00:14:46,683 They were happy, you know? 247 00:14:46,783 --> 00:14:49,220 He was a kind, kind person. 248 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:50,854 Michelle had a huge imagination. 249 00:14:50,954 --> 00:14:53,724 She always created things-- she was very creative. 250 00:14:53,824 --> 00:14:56,261 So, she had made her wedding dress 251 00:14:56,361 --> 00:14:59,563 and she had made her husband's suit. 252 00:14:59,663 --> 00:15:01,531 But the wedding-- I remember Larry coming in, 253 00:15:01,632 --> 00:15:04,035 and, uh, I thought it was odd... 254 00:15:04,135 --> 00:15:06,403 that a psychiatrist 255 00:15:06,503 --> 00:15:08,739 would show up at a wedding of-of-- of a patient, 256 00:15:08,839 --> 00:15:10,974 but there must have been a connection 257 00:15:11,075 --> 00:15:12,542 between Michelle and him. 258 00:15:19,917 --> 00:15:22,753 Well, I was married to Larry Pazder. 259 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:27,058 We met when I was 13 and he was 17, 260 00:15:27,158 --> 00:15:29,626 and we married in 1961, 261 00:15:29,726 --> 00:15:32,729 when he graduated from medicine 262 00:15:32,829 --> 00:15:34,798 and I had graduated from nursing. 263 00:15:37,201 --> 00:15:38,969 Well, he was always lots of fun, 264 00:15:39,070 --> 00:15:42,572 and always very happy and cheerful, 265 00:15:42,673 --> 00:15:44,242 and very charming. 266 00:15:44,342 --> 00:15:45,642 My mom said, 267 00:15:45,742 --> 00:15:48,046 "he could charm the birds right out of the trees," 268 00:15:48,146 --> 00:15:51,115 and he collected friends like a dog collected fleas. 269 00:15:52,582 --> 00:15:54,685 My dad was really religious 270 00:15:54,785 --> 00:15:57,821 and we went to church every Sunday. 271 00:15:59,290 --> 00:16:01,359 He was very much, like, 272 00:16:01,458 --> 00:16:04,594 "The Catholic Church is the only church," 273 00:16:04,695 --> 00:16:06,797 but with my dad, like... 274 00:16:06,897 --> 00:16:10,500 I was his princess, basically-- "Daddy's little girl". 275 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:13,271 So I was always really, really tight with my dad. 276 00:16:13,371 --> 00:16:15,505 Like, I knew he was a psychiatrist, 277 00:16:15,605 --> 00:16:17,041 and I think 278 00:16:17,141 --> 00:16:19,410 that's one of the reasons why I really looked up to him 279 00:16:19,509 --> 00:16:21,079 because, like, a psychiatrist was sort of seen 280 00:16:21,179 --> 00:16:23,081 as somebody that was kind of all-knowing 281 00:16:23,181 --> 00:16:25,983 and expert in human behaviour kind of thing. 282 00:16:26,084 --> 00:16:28,152 You're a conventional medical psychiatrist. 283 00:16:28,252 --> 00:16:29,354 Absolutely. 284 00:16:29,454 --> 00:16:32,556 How would you describe what was done... 285 00:16:32,656 --> 00:16:35,159 mentally and physically? 286 00:16:35,259 --> 00:16:37,594 It was a very carefully organized assault on Michelle, 287 00:16:37,694 --> 00:16:39,963 on a physical, emotional, intellectual, 288 00:16:40,064 --> 00:16:41,932 and finally, on a spiritual level. 289 00:16:42,033 --> 00:16:43,134 Very organized. 290 00:16:43,234 --> 00:16:44,768 -Very sophisticated. -Who were these people? 291 00:16:44,868 --> 00:16:46,737 Well, they're a secret organization. 292 00:16:46,837 --> 00:16:47,938 They're a secret society. 293 00:16:48,039 --> 00:16:50,141 Uh, a secret society does not reveal 294 00:16:50,241 --> 00:16:53,510 the identity of the people or the ways of their practices. 295 00:16:53,610 --> 00:16:56,114 I was familiar with this type of society firsthand 296 00:16:56,214 --> 00:16:57,281 in Africa-- 297 00:16:57,382 --> 00:16:58,749 practicing general medicine there-- 298 00:16:58,849 --> 00:17:01,185 and if one of the members of that society 299 00:17:01,285 --> 00:17:02,487 revealed who he was, 300 00:17:02,619 --> 00:17:03,787 he was killed instantly. 301 00:17:08,426 --> 00:17:11,162 Larry had the camera when we were in Nigeria-- 302 00:17:11,262 --> 00:17:13,164 for taking 16-millimetre. 303 00:17:14,598 --> 00:17:15,899 He liked to record things 304 00:17:15,999 --> 00:17:18,902 and he had all the latest photographic equipment, 305 00:17:19,003 --> 00:17:21,105 recording equipment-- everything like that. 306 00:17:21,205 --> 00:17:22,539 He loved doing that. 307 00:17:22,639 --> 00:17:23,707 Larry was a character, 308 00:17:23,807 --> 00:17:25,809 and he told these stories of Africa. 309 00:17:28,179 --> 00:17:31,082 And he had some run-ins with nuns down there. 310 00:17:31,182 --> 00:17:33,484 Nuns kept telling him that he was evil, 311 00:17:33,583 --> 00:17:36,521 and he was full of voodoo, and he should leave. 312 00:17:39,223 --> 00:17:41,059 There were strange things there. 313 00:17:41,159 --> 00:17:43,261 It was a completely different culture. 314 00:17:43,361 --> 00:17:45,263 Very, very different. 315 00:17:47,031 --> 00:17:53,071 He did take some pictures of this group dancing around... 316 00:17:53,171 --> 00:17:57,141 and it was like as if they were in a possession state. 317 00:17:59,077 --> 00:18:01,878 He went in there and took those pictures 318 00:18:01,978 --> 00:18:05,183 of two big wooden masks... 319 00:18:05,283 --> 00:18:07,984 and he really liked that sort of thing. 320 00:18:08,919 --> 00:18:11,621 He seemed to be very fascinated with it 321 00:18:11,721 --> 00:18:14,591 and just kind of drawn to that. 322 00:18:17,994 --> 00:18:19,729 Well, I had worked in Africa 323 00:18:19,830 --> 00:18:22,366 and done a lot of work in transcultural psychiatry, 324 00:18:22,467 --> 00:18:24,000 so I was familiar with cults, 325 00:18:24,102 --> 00:18:26,937 and the degree of sophistication and organization 326 00:18:27,038 --> 00:18:29,739 that these people were using on Michelle 327 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:32,076 told me that they were a serious cult, indeed. 328 00:18:32,176 --> 00:18:33,478 But they believe in the other God-- 329 00:18:33,578 --> 00:18:34,412 -the Devil, right? -The Devil. 330 00:18:34,512 --> 00:18:35,912 They worship the Devil 331 00:18:36,013 --> 00:18:38,216 to bring down anything good that they know about. 332 00:18:38,316 --> 00:18:40,784 How do they do this, Michelle, what rituals--? 333 00:18:40,884 --> 00:18:42,386 Does the Devil appear? Is that the idea? 334 00:18:42,487 --> 00:18:44,788 Well, that is one of their intents, of course, 335 00:18:44,888 --> 00:18:47,158 is to summon a presence. 336 00:18:47,258 --> 00:18:48,459 And you quote 337 00:18:48,559 --> 00:18:49,793 that the Devil always talks in rhyme? 338 00:18:49,893 --> 00:18:51,395 This is historically a fact 339 00:18:51,496 --> 00:18:52,796 that was brought out to us 340 00:18:52,896 --> 00:18:54,265 by the priest who we had to call in 341 00:18:54,365 --> 00:18:55,866 to help us understand what we were experiencing. 342 00:18:55,966 --> 00:18:57,201 "But I'll be back-- you wait and see. 343 00:18:57,301 --> 00:18:59,604 I'll be back to take the world for me." 344 00:18:59,703 --> 00:19:00,837 You heard this, Michelle? 345 00:19:00,937 --> 00:19:04,674 Yes. It was serious. 346 00:19:05,709 --> 00:19:07,345 Father Guy said 347 00:19:07,445 --> 00:19:10,047 that Michelle could never know 348 00:19:10,148 --> 00:19:12,682 the symbology... 349 00:19:12,782 --> 00:19:14,318 of what she was saying. 350 00:19:15,353 --> 00:19:17,687 Like, mostly, when Satan comes out of the fire 351 00:19:17,787 --> 00:19:20,024 and he speaks in rhymes. 352 00:19:22,726 --> 00:19:24,895 Father Guy was the priest 353 00:19:24,995 --> 00:19:30,000 at the Catholic Church that Larry and Michelle went to, 354 00:19:30,101 --> 00:19:32,869 and so he helped Michelle to understand 355 00:19:32,969 --> 00:19:35,273 what she's seeing and-- and what's happening 356 00:19:35,373 --> 00:19:37,375 in that reliving process. 357 00:19:38,775 --> 00:19:40,111 "Michelle is saved 358 00:19:40,211 --> 00:19:42,679 by the timely intervention of the Virgin Mary." 359 00:19:42,779 --> 00:19:45,249 What was that referring to? 360 00:19:45,349 --> 00:19:47,984 I was literally being frightened to death. 361 00:19:48,085 --> 00:19:50,854 At that moment, when I think I was dying, 362 00:19:50,954 --> 00:19:53,924 a very soft white light came and enveloped me, 363 00:19:54,025 --> 00:19:56,460 much like the feeling of being padded with cotton batting, 364 00:19:56,561 --> 00:19:58,728 and out of that, a woman came and stood beside me, 365 00:19:58,828 --> 00:20:00,498 and took a hold of my hand, 366 00:20:00,598 --> 00:20:02,766 identified herself as "Ma Mรจre", 367 00:20:02,866 --> 00:20:05,036 and basically told me to hang on, 368 00:20:05,136 --> 00:20:07,438 to help me understand the situation I was in, 369 00:20:07,538 --> 00:20:09,073 and how to get through it. 370 00:20:09,173 --> 00:20:10,141 -"Ma Mรจre"? -Ma Mรจre. 371 00:20:10,241 --> 00:20:12,443 -The Virgin Mary? -That's right. 372 00:20:12,543 --> 00:20:13,644 Mother Mary-- 373 00:20:13,743 --> 00:20:15,646 they referred to her as "Ma Mรจre"-- 374 00:20:15,745 --> 00:20:17,315 visited Michelle 375 00:20:17,415 --> 00:20:19,749 and talked to her in French. 376 00:20:19,849 --> 00:20:23,321 She helped to keep her going. 377 00:20:24,388 --> 00:20:26,023 Father Guy... 378 00:20:26,123 --> 00:20:29,227 felt concerned about it enough 379 00:20:29,327 --> 00:20:31,962 that he took Larry and Michelle over to his bishop, 380 00:20:32,063 --> 00:20:36,500 which was Bishop Remi De Roo at the time, and... 381 00:20:36,601 --> 00:20:39,637 Bishop Remi De Roo decided 382 00:20:39,736 --> 00:20:42,273 that her memories had enough import 383 00:20:42,373 --> 00:20:45,676 that they needed to go to Rome and tell the Pope this... 384 00:20:45,775 --> 00:20:48,179 and so they did! 385 00:20:52,882 --> 00:20:56,721 Larry and Michelle and Bishop Remi De Roo 386 00:20:56,853 --> 00:20:58,822 went there, 387 00:20:58,922 --> 00:21:01,325 and they did get to see the Pope... 388 00:21:02,460 --> 00:21:06,896 ...and they did tell him Michelle's memories. 389 00:21:08,266 --> 00:21:10,134 It sounds like Dante's Inferno-- 390 00:21:10,234 --> 00:21:11,636 hundreds of mutilated corpses. 391 00:21:11,736 --> 00:21:13,304 -Now, you saw this? -Mm-hmm. 392 00:21:13,404 --> 00:21:15,072 Now, you've placed this in the hands 393 00:21:15,172 --> 00:21:16,340 -of the Catholic Church? -That's right. 394 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:18,009 The entire tapes were transcribed 395 00:21:18,109 --> 00:21:19,410 with a great deal of time and effort. 396 00:21:19,510 --> 00:21:21,078 There's some million and a half words, 397 00:21:21,178 --> 00:21:22,747 and these are presently in the hands of the Church 398 00:21:22,846 --> 00:21:23,880 for their study. 399 00:21:23,980 --> 00:21:25,383 And so, the Vatican 400 00:21:25,483 --> 00:21:26,651 still has some pronouncements to make upon this? 401 00:21:26,751 --> 00:21:28,119 -Very much so. -Yes. 402 00:21:28,219 --> 00:21:29,453 ...And they're taking it very seriously. 403 00:21:46,836 --> 00:21:49,806 It was October, in 1980... 404 00:21:49,906 --> 00:21:51,442 as soon as the book came out, 405 00:21:51,542 --> 00:21:55,146 Larry and Michelle started this big publicity tour. 406 00:21:56,213 --> 00:21:58,049 She was traveling all over the place 407 00:21:58,149 --> 00:22:00,184 for this whole book tour. 408 00:22:00,284 --> 00:22:01,619 We didn't think it would really get 409 00:22:01,719 --> 00:22:02,753 as-- as big as it did, 410 00:22:02,886 --> 00:22:04,155 but then it just-- 411 00:22:04,255 --> 00:22:06,990 I don't know how it did, it just blew up. 412 00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:12,163 I had a ton of articles from all the papers 413 00:22:12,263 --> 00:22:14,165 and everywhere that they went. 414 00:22:15,499 --> 00:22:17,401 Michelle and Larry were famous. 415 00:22:17,501 --> 00:22:19,570 They were famous. Everybody was talking about it. 416 00:22:19,670 --> 00:22:23,140 I mean, in the newspapers in San Francisco and Houston. 417 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:25,975 She was in Seattle, Dallas, and New York. 418 00:22:26,077 --> 00:22:27,645 She was everywhere. 419 00:22:27,745 --> 00:22:31,749 I mean, they just went right across the whole country, 420 00:22:31,848 --> 00:22:33,883 and when they were on the book tours, 421 00:22:33,983 --> 00:22:35,786 they stayed in all these really fancy hotels. 422 00:22:35,885 --> 00:22:37,755 They had limousines. 423 00:22:37,854 --> 00:22:40,091 And I lived in San Francisco 424 00:22:40,191 --> 00:22:42,126 and they came down on one of her many book tours, 425 00:22:42,226 --> 00:22:45,262 and I mean, we had fun, we had some wonderful dinners... 426 00:22:46,597 --> 00:22:48,932 ...and they wined and dined whoever they were with. 427 00:22:50,034 --> 00:22:54,538 I know they got $245,000 U.S. advance for the book. 428 00:22:55,539 --> 00:22:57,308 And I know it was translated 429 00:22:57,408 --> 00:23:01,045 into a bunch of languages other than just English, 430 00:23:01,145 --> 00:23:04,014 so I know the book must've sold a lot of copies. 431 00:23:04,115 --> 00:23:05,683 The book's already a big bestseller! 432 00:23:05,783 --> 00:23:07,385 Who wrote it? You wrote it? 433 00:23:07,485 --> 00:23:09,353 -We wrote it together. -We wrote it together. 434 00:23:09,453 --> 00:23:11,789 But at that time, I had to have surgery, 435 00:23:11,888 --> 00:23:14,392 and so I had just come out of surgery, 436 00:23:14,492 --> 00:23:16,594 and I was lying there and I was really groggy, 437 00:23:16,694 --> 00:23:19,263 and I looked up at the TV, 438 00:23:19,363 --> 00:23:21,065 and all of sudden, there was my sister, 439 00:23:21,165 --> 00:23:22,666 and I was like, "Oh, my God." 440 00:23:26,737 --> 00:23:28,372 I, Michelle Smith, 441 00:23:28,472 --> 00:23:30,508 was turned over by my mother at the age of five 442 00:23:30,608 --> 00:23:33,477 to a group of practicing Satanists... 443 00:23:33,577 --> 00:23:34,678 who, for the next year, 444 00:23:34,779 --> 00:23:36,347 held me captive and abused me 445 00:23:36,447 --> 00:23:38,249 both mentally and physically 446 00:23:38,349 --> 00:23:41,886 as part of a demonic ritual called the "Feast of the Beast". 447 00:23:41,985 --> 00:23:43,254 After my ordeal, 448 00:23:43,354 --> 00:23:46,123 I lived normally and happily until 1976, 449 00:23:46,223 --> 00:23:48,058 when a strange sense of unease 450 00:23:48,159 --> 00:23:50,828 led me to seek psychiatric help. 451 00:23:50,927 --> 00:23:53,631 All the terrifying memories that were buried for so long 452 00:23:53,731 --> 00:23:55,099 began to surface 453 00:23:55,199 --> 00:23:57,835 and were recorded by my doctor, Lawrence Pazder, 454 00:23:57,934 --> 00:24:00,404 and Dr. Pazder and I have told my story 455 00:24:00,504 --> 00:24:02,106 in a book called Michelle Remembers. 456 00:24:02,206 --> 00:24:05,142 At first, I thought I was imagining it-- 457 00:24:05,242 --> 00:24:06,710 I was hallucinating, I thought I was, like, 458 00:24:06,811 --> 00:24:09,613 "Man, that morphine must be really good." 459 00:24:09,713 --> 00:24:10,915 When you relive these things, 460 00:24:11,015 --> 00:24:13,684 was this just in your head, the reliving? 461 00:24:13,784 --> 00:24:14,919 No, this took place-- 462 00:24:15,019 --> 00:24:16,420 Oh, the reliving itself? 463 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:18,722 Yes. This, took-- This was in my head. 464 00:24:18,823 --> 00:24:20,825 It was just too strange... 465 00:24:20,925 --> 00:24:24,261 and she told the whole story. 466 00:24:24,361 --> 00:24:26,197 So who's the person that was turned over to a Satanic cult 467 00:24:26,297 --> 00:24:27,465 and had written a book? 468 00:24:27,565 --> 00:24:28,666 The votes are all in-- 469 00:24:28,766 --> 00:24:30,267 now, we're gonna find out which of these ladies, 470 00:24:30,367 --> 00:24:32,336 in fact, did survive this, uh, demonic, uh, uh... 471 00:24:32,436 --> 00:24:34,205 possession, and we're gonna-- who better to pick her out 472 00:24:34,305 --> 00:24:37,174 than the co-author of her book, Dr. Lawrence Pazder? 473 00:24:37,274 --> 00:24:38,676 Doctor, come down and pick out Michelle, 474 00:24:38,776 --> 00:24:39,976 if you would, please. 475 00:24:44,981 --> 00:24:47,017 And of course, she stood up, 476 00:24:47,117 --> 00:24:48,919 and I was like, "I can't believe this." 477 00:24:51,388 --> 00:24:52,623 I think I called her and I said, 478 00:24:52,723 --> 00:24:56,861 "I can't believe I just saw you on TV." 479 00:24:56,961 --> 00:24:58,128 Can you squeeze in there? 480 00:24:58,229 --> 00:24:59,129 -Are you comfortable? -Yes, indeed. 481 00:24:59,230 --> 00:25:00,664 Um, Doctor, before we go on, 482 00:25:00,764 --> 00:25:03,133 I'd like to ask, is there any misinformation that emerged 483 00:25:03,234 --> 00:25:05,436 from this particular, uh, spot that you'd like to clear up? 484 00:25:05,536 --> 00:25:06,804 Well, one of the important things 485 00:25:06,904 --> 00:25:08,038 is the, uh, journey to the Vatican 486 00:25:08,138 --> 00:25:09,406 was to bring the information 487 00:25:09,507 --> 00:25:11,642 Michelle had seen some special presences-- 488 00:25:11,742 --> 00:25:13,611 Ma Mรจre, who is thought to be the mother of God. 489 00:25:13,711 --> 00:25:15,813 The book came out in 1980, 490 00:25:15,913 --> 00:25:18,349 and I heard about it almost immediately 491 00:25:18,449 --> 00:25:20,651 because I was the first Wiccan priest 492 00:25:20,751 --> 00:25:22,219 in law enforcement. 493 00:25:23,854 --> 00:25:26,624 It was a very, very popular book-- 494 00:25:26,724 --> 00:25:28,058 it still is, in some circles-- 495 00:25:28,158 --> 00:25:30,528 and she's all over North America 496 00:25:30,628 --> 00:25:32,796 in years following the publishing of that book-- 497 00:25:32,897 --> 00:25:34,298 in front of police audiences, 498 00:25:34,398 --> 00:25:35,766 in front of church audiences, 499 00:25:35,866 --> 00:25:37,568 in front of community audiences... 500 00:25:37,668 --> 00:25:40,504 and they're both being seen as an expert. 501 00:25:40,604 --> 00:25:42,973 I knew that it needed to be shared. 502 00:25:43,073 --> 00:25:47,111 It's the average person that, with this kind of information, 503 00:25:47,211 --> 00:25:49,346 maybe we can make some wiser decisions 504 00:25:49,446 --> 00:25:51,081 about the kinds of things that go on. 505 00:25:51,181 --> 00:25:53,217 Maybe we won't get so easily pulled into cults. 506 00:25:53,317 --> 00:25:54,652 She was everywhere. 507 00:25:54,752 --> 00:25:57,254 They were plugging everything. 508 00:25:58,289 --> 00:26:01,191 That's what they did for... at least two years. 509 00:26:03,227 --> 00:26:06,430 And he was all of a sudden being asked to come and talk 510 00:26:06,530 --> 00:26:10,568 because, apparently, now he was the guru of... 511 00:26:10,668 --> 00:26:14,238 being able to decipher when a child has been abused. 512 00:26:15,573 --> 00:26:17,708 So that's when they started the speaking tours 513 00:26:17,808 --> 00:26:20,210 for the psychiatric conventions. 514 00:26:21,111 --> 00:26:23,280 In 1981, 515 00:26:23,380 --> 00:26:25,516 there was an American Psychiatric Association 516 00:26:25,616 --> 00:26:27,052 annual meeting, 517 00:26:27,151 --> 00:26:29,153 and Pazder talked about 518 00:26:29,253 --> 00:26:31,355 the content of Michelle Remembers, 519 00:26:31,455 --> 00:26:34,858 and he started generalizing that there was this phenomenon, 520 00:26:34,959 --> 00:26:37,461 you know, beyond that particular story-- 521 00:26:37,561 --> 00:26:40,397 that there was a phenomenon called "Satanic ritual abuse." 522 00:26:45,102 --> 00:26:46,937 "Satanic ritual abuse" 523 00:26:47,038 --> 00:26:49,873 was a theory that people took as a fact, 524 00:26:49,974 --> 00:26:51,442 that there's a Satanic conspiracy 525 00:26:51,542 --> 00:26:55,713 and there are children who are kidnapped or stolen, 526 00:26:55,813 --> 00:26:57,848 and sacrificed. 527 00:26:57,948 --> 00:26:59,050 Children are involved 528 00:26:59,149 --> 00:27:01,619 in graveyards and crematoriums, 529 00:27:01,719 --> 00:27:02,886 in funeral parlours 530 00:27:02,987 --> 00:27:04,688 because one of the primary focuses 531 00:27:04,788 --> 00:27:06,490 of these people is death. 532 00:27:06,590 --> 00:27:09,460 Everything is attempted to be destroyed and killed 533 00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:11,862 in that child, and in society, 534 00:27:11,962 --> 00:27:13,263 everything of goodness. 535 00:27:28,912 --> 00:27:30,214 I'm Gordon Coulter. 536 00:27:30,314 --> 00:27:31,448 For many years, 537 00:27:31,548 --> 00:27:34,052 I served as a law enforcement officer. 538 00:27:34,151 --> 00:27:36,620 Today, it's my privilege to host this program 539 00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:39,423 on a little-known area in law enforcement. 540 00:27:39,523 --> 00:27:43,394 It's the area of Satanic cults. 541 00:27:43,494 --> 00:27:45,295 People would come in and they'd be paid 542 00:27:45,396 --> 00:27:47,564 to give these seminars to the police, 543 00:27:47,665 --> 00:27:50,968 or particularly the mental health professions. 544 00:27:51,069 --> 00:27:53,237 There were just all kinds of seminars, 545 00:27:53,337 --> 00:27:55,305 and, you know, the problem was 546 00:27:55,406 --> 00:27:57,075 that you could get credits for these 547 00:27:57,174 --> 00:27:58,642 and they'd get their little certificate. 548 00:27:58,742 --> 00:28:01,112 Now they know all about Satanic ritual abuse. 549 00:28:01,211 --> 00:28:02,413 A few months ago, 550 00:28:02,513 --> 00:28:04,082 Chicago played host to a conference 551 00:28:04,181 --> 00:28:06,084 featuring ritual abuse. 552 00:28:06,183 --> 00:28:07,851 One thing that's super-important to remember, 553 00:28:07,951 --> 00:28:09,054 I think the field is forgetting, 554 00:28:09,154 --> 00:28:10,754 is these people come from cults. 555 00:28:10,854 --> 00:28:12,589 Like-minded social workers 556 00:28:12,690 --> 00:28:14,491 and therapists eagerly noted 557 00:28:14,591 --> 00:28:16,960 the latest on the Satanic threat. 558 00:28:17,062 --> 00:28:20,297 Police are also being taught how to "spot Satan". 559 00:28:20,397 --> 00:28:23,168 I, um, do lectures throughout the country. 560 00:28:23,267 --> 00:28:24,802 In fact, I was in Canada. 561 00:28:24,902 --> 00:28:26,336 Did a presentation, uh, 562 00:28:26,437 --> 00:28:30,407 for about 150 multi-agency personnel up there. 563 00:28:30,507 --> 00:28:32,342 We called them "Cops for Christ"-- 564 00:28:32,443 --> 00:28:34,578 people who had their own agenda, 565 00:28:34,678 --> 00:28:37,514 and they created these seminars and these materials 566 00:28:37,614 --> 00:28:43,854 and presented as actual, uh, scientific, confirmed fact. 567 00:28:44,988 --> 00:28:49,027 There was an enormous amount of time spent 568 00:28:49,127 --> 00:28:50,828 dragging police into conferences 569 00:28:50,928 --> 00:28:53,664 to be taught how to investigate this stuff. 570 00:28:54,765 --> 00:28:57,468 All of that can be directly traced back 571 00:28:57,568 --> 00:29:00,471 to the Pazders' book... and others, you know? 572 00:29:00,571 --> 00:29:02,873 That's what fuelled that. 573 00:29:02,973 --> 00:29:04,641 That's what made that happen. 574 00:29:05,843 --> 00:29:08,278 Pazder said that it was very widespread, 575 00:29:08,378 --> 00:29:10,981 and he pretty much validated that claim-- 576 00:29:11,082 --> 00:29:15,086 that Satanic ritual abuse is a real concern. You know? 577 00:29:15,186 --> 00:29:16,987 People panic over this stuff. 578 00:29:19,523 --> 00:29:21,892 Michelle and Larry were always talking all the time 579 00:29:21,992 --> 00:29:23,427 of Victoria, in the church, 580 00:29:23,527 --> 00:29:26,131 explaining Satanic cults... 581 00:29:26,231 --> 00:29:29,399 and that's when someone said 582 00:29:29,500 --> 00:29:31,102 that the child was gonna be stolen from the hospital, 583 00:29:31,202 --> 00:29:32,503 and it caused major havoc! 584 00:29:32,603 --> 00:29:35,773 We stepped up our extra security staff itself, 585 00:29:35,873 --> 00:29:37,441 and we've taken other certain precautions 586 00:29:37,541 --> 00:29:40,044 within the hospital that I can't discuss. 587 00:29:40,145 --> 00:29:41,079 It was in the paper 588 00:29:41,179 --> 00:29:42,412 that Satanists 589 00:29:42,513 --> 00:29:45,315 were going to take a baby from the nursery. 590 00:29:45,415 --> 00:29:47,118 People were really alarmed. 591 00:29:47,218 --> 00:29:48,485 They were really upset. 592 00:29:48,585 --> 00:29:50,088 The patrol guards seem to be 593 00:29:50,188 --> 00:29:52,090 wandering around the halls constantly. 594 00:29:52,190 --> 00:29:55,392 I've been up at times during the night and seen them. 595 00:29:55,492 --> 00:29:56,760 Dr. Lawrence Pazder, 596 00:29:56,860 --> 00:29:58,295 who works out of this Victoria medical building, 597 00:29:58,395 --> 00:30:00,330 expressed concern the Satanists' threat 598 00:30:00,430 --> 00:30:01,799 hadn't been checked thoroughly enough, 599 00:30:01,899 --> 00:30:04,068 and denied any connection between it and his book, 600 00:30:04,169 --> 00:30:06,503 the bestseller, Michelle Remembers. 601 00:30:06,603 --> 00:30:08,239 People got caught up in it. 602 00:30:08,338 --> 00:30:10,741 It was like a snowball, you know? 603 00:30:10,841 --> 00:30:13,510 The more interest it got, the bigger it got, 604 00:30:13,610 --> 00:30:15,612 and it was just... it was a hot topic. 605 00:30:21,351 --> 00:30:23,821 Up until 1983, 606 00:30:23,921 --> 00:30:27,058 I was not aware of any of these cases... 607 00:30:27,158 --> 00:30:29,326 and then it just began to grow 608 00:30:29,426 --> 00:30:30,961 and grow and grow, 609 00:30:31,062 --> 00:30:34,398 and I kept hearing about more and more of these cases. 610 00:30:34,498 --> 00:30:36,301 I'd say, "Man, this is some weird stuff. 611 00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:37,734 This is-- 612 00:30:37,835 --> 00:30:40,004 This is some really serious, heavy-duty stuff here." 613 00:30:40,104 --> 00:30:41,438 I didn't know what to call it! 614 00:30:41,538 --> 00:30:44,775 I didn't say, "Wow! That's Satanic ritual abuse." 615 00:30:44,875 --> 00:30:46,343 I just heard people 616 00:30:46,443 --> 00:30:48,612 start to refer to these kinds of cases 617 00:30:48,712 --> 00:30:50,848 as "Satanic ritual abuse..." 618 00:30:50,948 --> 00:30:53,450 and it touched a nerve. 619 00:30:53,550 --> 00:30:54,985 "Satanic! Oh!" Those-- 620 00:30:55,086 --> 00:30:56,620 "I knew those people were involved in all this stuff!" 621 00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:58,189 And ritual? "Oh, yeah, what's that? 622 00:30:58,289 --> 00:31:00,258 That sounds sinister and evil!" 623 00:31:00,357 --> 00:31:02,060 And in Quantico, Virginia, 624 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:05,796 Special Agent Kenneth Lanning of the FBI... 625 00:31:05,896 --> 00:31:08,565 I became an FBI agent in 1970, 626 00:31:08,665 --> 00:31:11,501 and I was a regular FBI agent for ten years. 627 00:31:11,602 --> 00:31:12,803 Eventually, I was assigned 628 00:31:12,903 --> 00:31:15,739 to the FBI Behavioral Science Unit, 629 00:31:15,839 --> 00:31:18,642 and I became the Bureau's expert on Satanism, 630 00:31:18,742 --> 00:31:21,179 the occult, cults-- the whole package. 631 00:31:21,279 --> 00:31:22,880 Special Agent Lanning, 632 00:31:22,980 --> 00:31:24,948 I'm going to ask you to deal first with the belief, 633 00:31:25,049 --> 00:31:26,717 which is quite widespread out there now, 634 00:31:26,817 --> 00:31:28,852 that there are just too many people 635 00:31:28,952 --> 00:31:31,122 telling too many stories that all sound the same 636 00:31:31,222 --> 00:31:32,789 for this not to be true. 637 00:31:32,890 --> 00:31:35,425 Well, it's very interesting that that argument-- 638 00:31:35,525 --> 00:31:36,760 the fact that there's so many people 639 00:31:36,860 --> 00:31:39,364 telling the same story, so often... 640 00:31:39,463 --> 00:31:42,267 As I began to respond to these cases, 641 00:31:42,367 --> 00:31:45,136 I started out with an open mind, 642 00:31:45,236 --> 00:31:47,437 and I kinda thought that this had to be going on, 643 00:31:47,537 --> 00:31:49,240 because why would these people be saying that 644 00:31:49,340 --> 00:31:50,507 if it didn't happen? 645 00:31:50,607 --> 00:31:53,610 Pretty soon, somebody mentions Dr. Pazder 646 00:31:53,710 --> 00:31:55,646 and the book, Michelle Remembers , 647 00:31:55,746 --> 00:31:59,050 so I start to hear them getting involved... 648 00:31:59,150 --> 00:32:00,884 and the number of cases 649 00:32:00,984 --> 00:32:03,553 that they were consulting on in this area 650 00:32:03,654 --> 00:32:05,123 just began to grow... 651 00:32:06,590 --> 00:32:09,193 ...and then somebody called me up and told me 652 00:32:09,294 --> 00:32:11,561 about the McMartin daycare case. 653 00:32:12,529 --> 00:32:14,765 The McMartin case 654 00:32:14,865 --> 00:32:18,502 was one of these preschool-type of cases, 655 00:32:18,602 --> 00:32:19,770 the daycare cases, 656 00:32:19,870 --> 00:32:22,273 and all of these kids were making-- 657 00:32:22,373 --> 00:32:24,574 you know, ended up making these accusations 658 00:32:24,675 --> 00:32:26,443 about things that supposedly happened 659 00:32:26,543 --> 00:32:30,714 at a preschool in Manhattan Beach, California. 660 00:32:32,150 --> 00:32:34,385 41 youngsters over a six-year period 661 00:32:34,484 --> 00:32:36,321 had not just been sexually molested, 662 00:32:36,421 --> 00:32:37,721 but had also been forced 663 00:32:37,821 --> 00:32:39,856 to participate in Satanic rites. 664 00:32:39,957 --> 00:32:42,492 There were also charges that, to keep the children quiet, 665 00:32:42,592 --> 00:32:45,396 animals had been mutilated before their eyes. 666 00:32:45,495 --> 00:32:47,031 They're remembering being abused 667 00:32:47,131 --> 00:32:48,366 and Satanic rituals. 668 00:32:48,465 --> 00:32:49,967 They're remembering 669 00:32:50,068 --> 00:32:53,371 having to... kill animals and breed babies, 670 00:32:53,470 --> 00:32:54,905 and kill those babies, 671 00:32:55,006 --> 00:32:56,140 and drink blood, 672 00:32:56,240 --> 00:33:00,944 and all kinds of pretty wild and bizarre things. 673 00:33:01,045 --> 00:33:02,879 The defendants faced more than 300 counts 674 00:33:02,980 --> 00:33:05,615 of sodomy, rape, and oral copulation. 675 00:33:05,716 --> 00:33:07,751 The evidence of abuse was largely developed 676 00:33:07,851 --> 00:33:09,519 by social worker Kee MacFarlane, 677 00:33:09,619 --> 00:33:11,422 who used puppets to get the children-- 678 00:33:11,555 --> 00:33:13,391 who were between the ages of two and six-- 679 00:33:13,490 --> 00:33:15,093 to reveal what had happened. 680 00:33:15,193 --> 00:33:17,362 "Children's Institute International," 681 00:33:17,462 --> 00:33:19,629 which was a group that was involved 682 00:33:19,730 --> 00:33:22,966 in trying to get disclosures from children 683 00:33:23,067 --> 00:33:25,869 from the McMartin daycare case... 684 00:33:25,969 --> 00:33:29,240 decided to bring down Lawrence and Michelle 685 00:33:29,340 --> 00:33:30,640 as "consultants" 686 00:33:30,741 --> 00:33:32,410 to-- to assist in the process. 687 00:33:32,509 --> 00:33:35,645 So they were directly involved in getting these disclosures 688 00:33:35,746 --> 00:33:37,914 and "recovering" memories. 689 00:33:38,016 --> 00:33:40,717 Michelle Smith, what are the goals of these cults? 690 00:33:40,817 --> 00:33:43,920 They want to possess the soul of the child. 691 00:33:44,022 --> 00:33:46,656 It's not just they want to capture them physically, um, 692 00:33:46,757 --> 00:33:48,692 but they want to have the child theirs. 693 00:33:48,792 --> 00:33:50,294 And these are people whose families 694 00:33:50,395 --> 00:33:51,728 are either involved in these cults 695 00:33:51,828 --> 00:33:53,398 or who, because of you, because of some connection, 696 00:33:53,498 --> 00:33:55,266 fell into their hands? 697 00:33:55,366 --> 00:33:59,504 Or through such, um, vehicles as daycare centers, 698 00:33:59,603 --> 00:34:01,905 where the chil-- they have access to the child. 699 00:34:02,006 --> 00:34:03,707 They went down to the States 700 00:34:03,807 --> 00:34:06,344 for the McMartin trial... 701 00:34:06,444 --> 00:34:10,281 and I know Michelle spent a lot of time with the kids 702 00:34:10,381 --> 00:34:12,649 because that's what she would talk to me about, 703 00:34:12,749 --> 00:34:16,487 was the kids, and how she related to the kids, 704 00:34:16,586 --> 00:34:21,325 and helped the kids remembering, reliving... 705 00:34:21,426 --> 00:34:23,593 what had happened to them. 706 00:34:23,693 --> 00:34:24,961 The mother of two children, 707 00:34:25,063 --> 00:34:27,265 who admitted that they were severely abused 708 00:34:27,365 --> 00:34:29,167 while at the McMartin school, 709 00:34:29,267 --> 00:34:31,102 agreed to talk to us on camera. 710 00:34:31,202 --> 00:34:33,637 What actually happened to your two children? 711 00:34:33,737 --> 00:34:35,739 They were tied up, sodomized, 712 00:34:35,839 --> 00:34:38,476 um, they were taken off the premises. 713 00:34:38,575 --> 00:34:40,677 They were threatened... 714 00:34:40,777 --> 00:34:43,347 by watching animals being slaughtered. 715 00:34:43,448 --> 00:34:46,017 Uh, they were sold for prostitution. 716 00:34:46,117 --> 00:34:47,818 People wanted to validate 717 00:34:47,918 --> 00:34:49,253 what children were saying, 718 00:34:49,353 --> 00:34:50,821 and the problem is, 719 00:34:50,921 --> 00:34:54,758 if you can't believe everything that the child says, 720 00:34:54,858 --> 00:34:56,626 what can you believe? 721 00:34:56,726 --> 00:34:59,163 How do you decide what happened and what didn't happen, 722 00:34:59,263 --> 00:35:00,531 what might have happened? 723 00:35:00,630 --> 00:35:02,632 Maybe the child misremembered it. 724 00:35:02,732 --> 00:35:03,800 Maybe it's distorted. 725 00:35:03,900 --> 00:35:05,669 Maybe the child didn't understand. 726 00:35:05,769 --> 00:35:08,339 But I would estimate that, as time went on, 727 00:35:08,439 --> 00:35:09,806 during that time, 728 00:35:09,906 --> 00:35:12,243 from '83 to maybe the late '80s, 729 00:35:12,343 --> 00:35:15,379 I consulted on hundreds and hundreds of these cases. 730 00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:16,947 How alarmist would you be 731 00:35:17,048 --> 00:35:19,250 about how we should be dealing with this problem 732 00:35:19,350 --> 00:35:20,717 and how widespread it is? 733 00:35:20,817 --> 00:35:22,386 It's widespread. 734 00:35:22,487 --> 00:35:23,820 It's a-- It's across North America. 735 00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:25,622 We've had reports of it in-- in every province 736 00:35:25,722 --> 00:35:27,225 and in every state. 737 00:35:27,325 --> 00:35:30,361 It isn't, uh, just in California or just on the West Coast here. 738 00:35:32,063 --> 00:35:33,930 As the daycare cases erupted, 739 00:35:34,031 --> 00:35:38,069 which started in about '83, '84... 740 00:35:38,169 --> 00:35:39,669 there were police 741 00:35:39,769 --> 00:35:41,139 who were investigating these cases, 742 00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:44,808 and prosecutors who were deciding to take them to trial, 743 00:35:44,908 --> 00:35:47,545 who were using Michelle Remembers 744 00:35:47,644 --> 00:35:50,814 as a kind of a checklist to develop cases... 745 00:35:50,914 --> 00:35:53,151 which meant that they would try to come up with questions 746 00:35:53,251 --> 00:35:54,751 based on what had happened to Michelle 747 00:35:54,851 --> 00:35:56,387 to ask the children. 748 00:36:00,458 --> 00:36:03,127 Michelle Remembers actually led to this panic 749 00:36:03,227 --> 00:36:06,730 over children being endangered. 750 00:36:06,830 --> 00:36:08,299 People panic over this stuff. 751 00:36:08,399 --> 00:36:09,766 They panic 752 00:36:09,866 --> 00:36:11,668 because they think that this is the end of the world. 753 00:36:12,702 --> 00:36:14,605 It's known as the "Satanic Panic" 754 00:36:14,704 --> 00:36:16,873 from the 1980s and '90s, 755 00:36:16,973 --> 00:36:20,677 and this stuff just spreads like wildfire! 756 00:36:20,777 --> 00:36:23,147 And, as an FBI agent, 757 00:36:23,247 --> 00:36:24,315 I could step back, 758 00:36:24,415 --> 00:36:27,351 and see cases from all over the United States 759 00:36:27,451 --> 00:36:28,653 and, eventually, 760 00:36:28,752 --> 00:36:30,087 all over the Western industrialized world. 761 00:36:33,191 --> 00:36:35,892 Police officers all over North America 762 00:36:35,992 --> 00:36:37,662 went out looking for this stuff 763 00:36:37,761 --> 00:36:39,030 and prosecuted people. 764 00:36:40,730 --> 00:36:43,201 The Satanic Panic was picking up steam 765 00:36:43,301 --> 00:36:47,004 and it started to spread out and affect more people. 766 00:36:48,805 --> 00:36:51,275 It just... went viral. 767 00:36:51,375 --> 00:36:54,811 And all of this was started by this book. 768 00:37:09,859 --> 00:37:11,028 Victoria was a great city. 769 00:37:11,128 --> 00:37:14,831 Growing up here was so much fun. 770 00:37:14,931 --> 00:37:16,567 It was happy. 771 00:37:16,667 --> 00:37:17,801 It was... it was fabulous. 772 00:37:17,901 --> 00:37:19,370 I was really lucky. 773 00:37:21,339 --> 00:37:23,907 You know, my dad had a great sense of humour. 774 00:37:24,008 --> 00:37:26,711 He also had, like, a bit of a twinkle in his eye, 775 00:37:26,810 --> 00:37:28,878 and sometimes, at Christmas, 776 00:37:28,979 --> 00:37:30,814 all the family would come over, 777 00:37:30,914 --> 00:37:32,183 and there's a ukulele. 778 00:37:32,283 --> 00:37:35,086 My dad would play and my mom would sing and... 779 00:37:35,186 --> 00:37:39,056 they were just so happy, singing along together. 780 00:37:42,159 --> 00:37:43,394 Those were good memories... 781 00:37:45,196 --> 00:37:47,964 ...but that was before the book. 782 00:37:50,434 --> 00:37:53,437 Before he started on this book... 783 00:37:53,537 --> 00:37:55,805 I was at home, 784 00:37:55,905 --> 00:37:58,009 and I was sitting there, watching that show-- 785 00:37:58,109 --> 00:37:59,710 Sybil , was on TV. 786 00:37:59,809 --> 00:38:02,046 Sybil... 787 00:38:02,146 --> 00:38:03,414 Oh... 788 00:38:03,514 --> 00:38:05,349 please don't touch me. 789 00:38:05,449 --> 00:38:06,850 It hurts. 790 00:38:06,950 --> 00:38:09,720 Sybil is about a woman who goes into therapy, 791 00:38:09,819 --> 00:38:12,922 and she ends up in extreme therapy, 792 00:38:13,024 --> 00:38:14,759 like, five times a week, 793 00:38:14,858 --> 00:38:17,061 and she gradually remembers 794 00:38:17,161 --> 00:38:20,598 really horrific, sadistic sexual abuse and torture 795 00:38:20,698 --> 00:38:22,366 by her mother. 796 00:38:22,466 --> 00:38:25,136 The book came out in 1973, 797 00:38:25,236 --> 00:38:29,040 and it was just, like, this instant wild success, 798 00:38:29,140 --> 00:38:32,543 and then it was made into a made-for-TV movie in 1976, 799 00:38:32,643 --> 00:38:34,245 and I think about, like, 800 00:38:34,345 --> 00:38:37,548 one-fifth of the American population watched that. 801 00:38:38,649 --> 00:38:41,185 He said, "I want to do the same thing," 802 00:38:41,285 --> 00:38:44,588 and he said, "I don't want to be just an ordinary psychiatrist. 803 00:38:44,689 --> 00:38:46,557 I want to be famous," 804 00:38:46,657 --> 00:38:49,393 and he said, "I've got a patient just like that," 805 00:38:49,493 --> 00:38:51,995 and that's when he phoned her and gave her the phone number, 806 00:38:52,096 --> 00:38:53,464 and that's when it started. 807 00:38:53,564 --> 00:38:54,831 It just took off from there. 808 00:38:56,167 --> 00:39:00,271 The phone started ringing in our house constantly, 809 00:39:00,371 --> 00:39:02,972 and it was usually really late at night. 810 00:39:03,074 --> 00:39:05,409 You know, to have a patient calling all the time 811 00:39:05,509 --> 00:39:06,644 was just unusual. 812 00:39:06,744 --> 00:39:08,279 No patient had ever called before. 813 00:39:09,447 --> 00:39:10,448 When she got the phone number, 814 00:39:10,548 --> 00:39:11,915 she didn't stop phoning. 815 00:39:12,016 --> 00:39:14,318 She'd phone several times a day. 816 00:39:14,418 --> 00:39:18,189 When he came in the door, I would watch the clock... 817 00:39:18,289 --> 00:39:21,759 and sometimes, it would get to maybe about 818 00:39:21,858 --> 00:39:23,527 two minutes, three minutes, 819 00:39:23,627 --> 00:39:25,396 and then the phone would ring. 820 00:39:26,797 --> 00:39:28,032 And so I thought, 821 00:39:28,132 --> 00:39:31,102 if we went to Mexico for Christmas, 822 00:39:31,202 --> 00:39:33,704 that he'd be able to distance himself 823 00:39:33,804 --> 00:39:35,939 in a more realistic way, 824 00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:38,075 but she just phoned and phoned 825 00:39:38,175 --> 00:39:40,344 and phoned and phoned and phoned, 826 00:39:40,444 --> 00:39:42,213 and he did believe her. 827 00:39:42,313 --> 00:39:43,848 There's no two ways about it. 828 00:39:43,947 --> 00:39:45,549 He believed everything. 829 00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:52,256 The big change was that trip, 830 00:39:52,356 --> 00:39:54,792 and when they came back, I mean, all hell broke loose. 831 00:39:54,891 --> 00:39:57,828 Michelle was, like, showing up at all these different things 832 00:39:57,927 --> 00:40:00,364 behind us, and following us and... 833 00:40:00,464 --> 00:40:03,033 it was frightening. 834 00:40:03,134 --> 00:40:05,102 We went to Edmonton to a wedding 835 00:40:05,202 --> 00:40:07,638 and she followed us all the way, 836 00:40:07,738 --> 00:40:08,905 and I cried all the way, 837 00:40:09,006 --> 00:40:11,275 because there she was, right behind us. 838 00:40:12,610 --> 00:40:14,378 His patient was everywhere. 839 00:40:33,864 --> 00:40:35,999 We thought this was the story 840 00:40:36,100 --> 00:40:38,602 that she used to get his full attention. 841 00:40:39,570 --> 00:40:41,672 It had him wrapped around her finger. 842 00:40:41,772 --> 00:40:43,107 No question. 843 00:40:43,207 --> 00:40:45,242 You know, she was always there, 844 00:40:45,342 --> 00:40:47,977 always reaching into our house with the phone, 845 00:40:48,078 --> 00:40:50,281 showing up at the doorstep. 846 00:40:50,381 --> 00:40:55,219 That was the Michelle we knew before the book. 847 00:40:55,319 --> 00:40:58,456 To us, she was like... this stalker. 848 00:40:59,423 --> 00:41:01,958 Although, I think he saw her differently than we did. 849 00:41:02,059 --> 00:41:03,761 Definitely. 850 00:41:03,861 --> 00:41:06,664 I felt that she was... 851 00:41:06,764 --> 00:41:08,632 deeply in love with him. 852 00:41:09,767 --> 00:41:13,037 She was very protective of him, 853 00:41:13,137 --> 00:41:15,272 and, you know... 854 00:41:15,372 --> 00:41:17,808 all of us that-- that did the typing, 855 00:41:17,908 --> 00:41:19,877 we all felt the same way, 856 00:41:19,976 --> 00:41:23,247 that she just wanted Larry to herself. 857 00:41:24,281 --> 00:41:27,585 Essentially, this has become a relationship where... 858 00:41:27,685 --> 00:41:29,320 the boundaries 859 00:41:29,420 --> 00:41:31,889 that exist between doctor and patient 860 00:41:32,022 --> 00:41:33,457 are no longer there, 861 00:41:33,557 --> 00:41:39,663 and Dr. Pazder and Michelle are first holding hands. 862 00:41:39,763 --> 00:41:44,301 He's then sometimes placing a hand on top of her head, 863 00:41:44,401 --> 00:41:46,370 and gradually they move from the couch 864 00:41:46,470 --> 00:41:48,272 to a rubber mat he has on the floor 865 00:41:48,372 --> 00:41:51,809 so that they can both lie on the floor together, 866 00:41:51,909 --> 00:41:54,745 their bodies touching, 867 00:41:54,845 --> 00:41:57,348 and according to this book, 868 00:41:57,448 --> 00:42:00,217 this is "very necessary" for the therapeutic experience. 869 00:42:00,317 --> 00:42:02,653 She's experiencing so much pain, 870 00:42:02,753 --> 00:42:04,288 she's in so much distress, 871 00:42:04,388 --> 00:42:07,024 that she needs to be held 872 00:42:07,124 --> 00:42:09,894 in order to continue remembering. 873 00:42:14,031 --> 00:42:16,100 You know, around that time, 874 00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:19,503 my dad started sort of disappearing quite a bit, 875 00:42:19,603 --> 00:42:23,073 and we didn't know where he was... 876 00:42:24,174 --> 00:42:26,510 ...and my mom didn't know where he was. 877 00:42:29,179 --> 00:42:30,648 I didn't... 878 00:42:30,748 --> 00:42:34,451 I just knew all these weird things were going on, and, uh... 879 00:42:34,552 --> 00:42:38,322 he was making a lot of effort to keep it secret. 880 00:42:39,490 --> 00:42:42,259 So I started asking around, 881 00:42:42,359 --> 00:42:45,729 and I found out Father Guy was involved with it. 882 00:42:47,364 --> 00:42:50,200 Larry had all tape recorders and all kinds of equipment, 883 00:42:50,301 --> 00:42:53,837 so I phoned and recorded Father Guy. 884 00:43:47,625 --> 00:43:49,226 Father Guy said 885 00:43:49,326 --> 00:43:51,395 many people are going to be killed, 886 00:43:51,495 --> 00:43:54,065 and many people are going to be saved, and... 887 00:43:54,164 --> 00:43:58,135 you know, there was something wrong up there. 888 00:43:59,269 --> 00:44:00,704 And Father Guy told me 889 00:44:00,804 --> 00:44:04,341 that they were gonna make a million dollars from the book 890 00:44:04,441 --> 00:44:06,910 and there was a lot of money involved. 891 00:44:08,079 --> 00:44:11,515 So we went to see the Bishop Remi De Roo, 892 00:44:11,615 --> 00:44:14,685 and said, you know, "Stop supporting this." 893 00:44:15,886 --> 00:44:18,689 But I didn't realize he went to Rome with him. 894 00:44:19,690 --> 00:44:23,961 I didn't realize that he was so mixed up in it 895 00:44:24,062 --> 00:44:25,663 until the book came out, 896 00:44:25,763 --> 00:44:29,199 but they obviously were all believing all of this. 897 00:44:30,267 --> 00:44:32,569 They were all for it... 898 00:44:32,670 --> 00:44:36,840 but I can't understand why anybody would believe it. 899 00:44:38,043 --> 00:44:43,213 I don't know why these people would follow such a stupid book. 900 00:44:44,214 --> 00:44:45,215 One of the first things that came out 901 00:44:45,315 --> 00:44:46,383 after the book came out 902 00:44:46,483 --> 00:44:48,652 was the article in People Magazine, 903 00:44:48,752 --> 00:44:51,255 and there she is, lying on this couch, 904 00:44:51,355 --> 00:44:53,957 and she's got her top off and... 905 00:44:54,059 --> 00:44:55,959 Why would you give that picture in the first place 906 00:44:56,061 --> 00:44:57,594 to a-- to a magazine? 907 00:44:57,695 --> 00:44:59,263 Like, you've got a wife back home. 908 00:44:59,363 --> 00:45:00,831 You're really gonna get shit for this. 909 00:45:02,199 --> 00:45:03,400 That was heartbreaking, 910 00:45:03,500 --> 00:45:06,970 to think that he would do that, you know? 911 00:45:07,072 --> 00:45:10,574 So I realized that there was no hope. 912 00:45:12,242 --> 00:45:15,746 For me, that's... that's where his... 913 00:45:15,846 --> 00:45:18,549 affection was. 914 00:45:19,783 --> 00:45:23,088 Michelle was still married to Doug. 915 00:45:23,188 --> 00:45:24,354 He had a good job. 916 00:45:24,455 --> 00:45:25,556 You know, Michelle got to stay home 917 00:45:25,656 --> 00:45:28,358 and do what she wanted to do. 918 00:45:28,459 --> 00:45:31,762 But they had a really hard divorce. 919 00:45:32,730 --> 00:45:35,265 Michelle wanted everything her way 920 00:45:35,365 --> 00:45:37,168 and he did not see it coming at all. 921 00:45:39,603 --> 00:45:41,072 When that book came out, 922 00:45:41,172 --> 00:45:42,639 it was really rotten, 923 00:45:42,740 --> 00:45:46,677 and it was so hurtful to see my mom at that time. 924 00:45:46,777 --> 00:45:47,544 She was in bed 925 00:45:47,644 --> 00:45:49,880 and she was, like, destroyed. 926 00:45:49,980 --> 00:45:53,017 My dad was her first boyfriend. 927 00:45:54,085 --> 00:45:57,254 They had just been together, like, her whole life, 928 00:45:57,354 --> 00:45:59,090 that's the only person she knew. 929 00:45:59,190 --> 00:46:00,791 He definitely, like... 930 00:46:00,891 --> 00:46:03,393 he broke her heart. 931 00:46:04,428 --> 00:46:06,897 And yeah, no, he wasn't the same with me at all. 932 00:46:06,997 --> 00:46:08,066 He wasn't friendly. 933 00:46:08,166 --> 00:46:09,333 He wasn't joking. 934 00:46:09,433 --> 00:46:11,268 He kind of didn't have that same look. 935 00:46:11,368 --> 00:46:12,603 There wasn't that twinkle. 936 00:46:12,703 --> 00:46:14,671 There's just a lot of sadness. 937 00:46:16,974 --> 00:46:18,375 I got so upset 938 00:46:18,475 --> 00:46:21,845 that I just went down and filed for a divorce. 939 00:46:22,946 --> 00:46:25,349 I said forget it. 940 00:46:27,684 --> 00:46:29,087 Forget it. 941 00:46:29,187 --> 00:46:30,687 No way. 942 00:46:31,722 --> 00:46:33,423 Now, Michelle Smith, 943 00:46:33,524 --> 00:46:35,492 you survived a year of abuse by one of these cults 944 00:46:35,592 --> 00:46:37,394 when you were five years old. 945 00:46:37,494 --> 00:46:39,596 When you first talked about these things, 946 00:46:39,696 --> 00:46:41,532 I mean, did people think this was a fantasy, 947 00:46:41,632 --> 00:46:43,634 that y-you'd made this all up, it was such hocus-pocus, 948 00:46:43,734 --> 00:46:46,336 that it couldn't possibly have happened? 949 00:46:46,436 --> 00:46:48,539 Well, I was one of the first to stand up 950 00:46:48,639 --> 00:46:50,574 and start to recount these kinds of things 951 00:46:50,674 --> 00:46:53,111 and to bring it, um... publicly, 952 00:46:53,211 --> 00:46:55,113 and I think people are so uncomfortable 953 00:46:55,213 --> 00:46:56,947 and so afraid of this whole subject 954 00:46:57,048 --> 00:47:00,084 that, yes, I experienced a lot of the uncomfortableness, 955 00:47:00,185 --> 00:47:01,618 but what I also experienced 956 00:47:01,718 --> 00:47:04,189 was a tremendous number of people saying, 957 00:47:04,289 --> 00:47:06,257 "this is true." 958 00:47:06,390 --> 00:47:07,491 I'm a cynical person 959 00:47:07,591 --> 00:47:09,827 who spent 30 years in law enforcement. 960 00:47:09,927 --> 00:47:12,696 I assume that people are lying unless I know otherwise, 961 00:47:12,796 --> 00:47:15,599 but a lot of therapists have an opposite bias. 962 00:47:15,699 --> 00:47:18,036 They assume that everybody's telling the truth, 963 00:47:18,136 --> 00:47:19,670 unless they know otherwise, 964 00:47:19,770 --> 00:47:23,241 and actually, this becomes a huge aspect 965 00:47:23,340 --> 00:47:27,444 to these allegations of Satanic ritual abuse, 966 00:47:27,544 --> 00:47:29,813 particularly with what's called the adult survivors, 967 00:47:29,913 --> 00:47:31,515 and that's what Michelle would be. 968 00:47:31,615 --> 00:47:33,550 The things in the adult survivor cases-- 969 00:47:33,650 --> 00:47:35,485 the stuff was even more weird 970 00:47:35,586 --> 00:47:37,055 than it was in the younger kids 971 00:47:37,155 --> 00:47:38,622 at the daycare centres. 972 00:47:38,722 --> 00:47:42,426 Bonnie, you were made pregnant when you were 11 years old? 973 00:47:42,526 --> 00:47:46,496 Yes. That child was sacrificed within the cult 974 00:47:46,597 --> 00:47:48,333 when she was about six months old. 975 00:47:48,432 --> 00:47:51,169 S-- Sacrificed how? 976 00:47:51,269 --> 00:47:52,736 By being stabbed, 977 00:47:52,836 --> 00:47:57,108 and I was coerced into doing the act myself, 978 00:47:57,208 --> 00:47:58,842 with my own child. 979 00:47:58,942 --> 00:48:01,179 Uh, the police never found out about this? 980 00:48:01,279 --> 00:48:06,351 The groups are extremely careful to cover up all evidence 981 00:48:06,450 --> 00:48:09,419 through using crematoriums and things like that. 982 00:48:09,519 --> 00:48:11,655 At least that's how I understand it. 983 00:48:11,755 --> 00:48:14,025 "Adult survivors" 984 00:48:14,125 --> 00:48:16,027 are where you have an adult 985 00:48:16,127 --> 00:48:17,961 who goes into therapy 986 00:48:18,062 --> 00:48:20,831 without any memories of horrific abuse 987 00:48:20,931 --> 00:48:22,066 and comes out 988 00:48:22,166 --> 00:48:25,402 with all of these allegedly repressed and recovered 989 00:48:25,502 --> 00:48:26,603 trauma memories. 990 00:48:26,703 --> 00:48:30,208 That was some kind of altogether... 991 00:48:30,308 --> 00:48:32,010 different thing. 992 00:48:32,110 --> 00:48:35,579 This wasn't just a little kid and a fantasy. 993 00:48:36,580 --> 00:48:37,781 And you would have patients 994 00:48:37,881 --> 00:48:39,449 who had essentially the Michelle experience, 995 00:48:39,549 --> 00:48:41,252 where suddenly, you were logging enough hours 996 00:48:41,352 --> 00:48:44,289 on the couch, "in the depths," 997 00:48:44,389 --> 00:48:46,623 to qualify as a full-time job, 998 00:48:46,723 --> 00:48:49,826 and where a doctor who you trust... 999 00:48:50,961 --> 00:48:52,363 ...is telling you 1000 00:48:52,462 --> 00:48:54,631 if there is anything wrong with you, 1001 00:48:54,731 --> 00:48:58,435 it was a result of sexual abuse that you had forgotten, 1002 00:48:58,535 --> 00:49:00,004 and probably Satanic abuse, 1003 00:49:00,104 --> 00:49:01,939 because apparently, there's a lot of that, 1004 00:49:02,040 --> 00:49:03,408 and you can read about it in this book 1005 00:49:03,507 --> 00:49:04,574 that was a bestseller. 1006 00:49:06,443 --> 00:49:08,379 We have so many cases 1007 00:49:08,478 --> 00:49:11,416 that essentially are the fruit 1008 00:49:11,515 --> 00:49:14,685 of this tree that Michelle and Larry planted. 1009 00:49:14,785 --> 00:49:17,754 There are therapists all over the country today-- 1010 00:49:17,854 --> 00:49:20,524 many of them that are not really qualified 1011 00:49:20,624 --> 00:49:21,925 to be therapists-- 1012 00:49:22,026 --> 00:49:24,395 that are-are passing on these stories. 1013 00:49:26,097 --> 00:49:27,664 They were salesmen. 1014 00:49:27,764 --> 00:49:30,534 They were going around the country, 1015 00:49:30,634 --> 00:49:33,937 selling fear of Satan, fear of Satanic cults, 1016 00:49:34,038 --> 00:49:37,841 and they were-- they made a living out of it. 1017 00:49:37,941 --> 00:49:40,944 Her therapy-- 13 months of in-patient work 1018 00:49:41,045 --> 00:49:43,880 for misdiagnosed Satanic, ritualistic, everything... 1019 00:49:43,981 --> 00:49:49,753 her therapy, over $1,300,000 for her, 1020 00:49:49,853 --> 00:49:52,622 then they got both of her teenage daughters in. 1021 00:49:52,723 --> 00:49:53,957 One daughter went in 1022 00:49:54,058 --> 00:49:57,161 for 11 months of in-patient therapy. 1023 00:49:57,261 --> 00:49:59,496 I think it's very clear 1024 00:49:59,596 --> 00:50:01,631 that the therapists saw 1025 00:50:01,732 --> 00:50:03,700 the opportunity to make some money 1026 00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:07,338 off of these wild accusations and stories. 1027 00:50:07,438 --> 00:50:08,572 This wouldn't have happened 1028 00:50:08,672 --> 00:50:10,408 had it not been for the therapists 1029 00:50:10,507 --> 00:50:12,676 who compromised their ethics 1030 00:50:12,776 --> 00:50:15,946 and encouraged their patients 1031 00:50:16,047 --> 00:50:19,183 to elaborate further and further. 1032 00:50:19,283 --> 00:50:21,452 They cut us and made us sign our names in blood 1033 00:50:21,551 --> 00:50:22,786 in The Satanic Bible. 1034 00:50:22,886 --> 00:50:24,855 That was the first ritual that I remember. 1035 00:50:24,955 --> 00:50:28,459 I was informed that my parents were in the occult. 1036 00:50:28,558 --> 00:50:29,860 She claimed 1037 00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:32,596 that we had a pizza delivery boy come to our home. 1038 00:50:32,696 --> 00:50:35,433 We cut him up, grilled him, and ate him. 1039 00:50:35,532 --> 00:50:37,301 I said, "I know what you did. 1040 00:50:37,402 --> 00:50:39,703 You're the ringleader of this cult 1041 00:50:39,803 --> 00:50:41,472 that I know you murdered babies, 1042 00:50:41,571 --> 00:50:43,940 and I know you made me murder babies, 1043 00:50:44,042 --> 00:50:45,176 and eat babies, 1044 00:50:45,276 --> 00:50:46,444 and I know just what you are. 1045 00:50:46,543 --> 00:50:47,978 I know you for the Satanist that you are." 1046 00:50:48,079 --> 00:50:49,813 And Sally, most of these women 1047 00:50:49,913 --> 00:50:51,548 don't come forward until their mid-30s, 1048 00:50:51,648 --> 00:50:53,117 after five or seven years' worth of-- 1049 00:50:53,217 --> 00:50:56,620 This is not a case in which someone has repressed memory. 1050 00:50:56,720 --> 00:50:58,523 This is a courageous woman who has-- 1051 00:51:00,857 --> 00:51:02,759 I would run into adult survivors 1052 00:51:02,859 --> 00:51:04,495 on, like, The Sally Show , 1053 00:51:04,594 --> 00:51:07,465 and so many different kinds of people-- 1054 00:51:07,564 --> 00:51:08,598 including educated people-- 1055 00:51:08,698 --> 00:51:10,967 believed that this was happening, 1056 00:51:11,069 --> 00:51:13,471 and if you didn't believe it, you were suspect-- 1057 00:51:13,570 --> 00:51:16,374 I mean, at best, of not caring about children, 1058 00:51:16,474 --> 00:51:19,110 and at worst, that you are a Satanist. 1059 00:51:19,210 --> 00:51:21,145 Are you accusing me of being a Satanist? Yes or no? 1060 00:51:21,245 --> 00:51:23,247 You're acting like-- You're acting like one. 1061 00:51:23,347 --> 00:51:24,714 Say it. Yes or no? 1062 00:51:24,815 --> 00:51:27,085 I'm saying you're acting like a Satanist right now. 1063 00:51:27,185 --> 00:51:29,653 Some people suggested that what they thought 1064 00:51:29,753 --> 00:51:32,622 was causing Satanism was heavy-metal music, 1065 00:51:32,722 --> 00:51:33,924 and some of the people 1066 00:51:34,025 --> 00:51:36,060 who were trying to investigate this stuff, 1067 00:51:36,160 --> 00:51:37,861 they thought they were doing a good thing. 1068 00:51:37,961 --> 00:51:39,163 How often do you find 1069 00:51:39,263 --> 00:51:40,565 heavy-metal-music indicators 1070 00:51:40,664 --> 00:51:43,667 at the scene of a crime involving Satanic worship? 1071 00:51:43,767 --> 00:51:46,636 Probably about 35 to 40% of the calls. 1072 00:51:46,736 --> 00:51:48,039 -Regularly, then? -Yes. 1073 00:51:48,139 --> 00:51:51,209 At the same time, there was kind of a... 1074 00:51:51,309 --> 00:51:52,809 I guess you'd call it a rumour, 1075 00:51:52,909 --> 00:51:54,412 although it got picked up by the press 1076 00:51:54,512 --> 00:51:58,449 and it was taken as absolutely-- as fact, to the effect that-- 1077 00:51:58,549 --> 00:51:59,850 that, you know, 1078 00:51:59,950 --> 00:52:02,619 thousands and thousands of children were missing. 1079 00:52:02,719 --> 00:52:03,954 Thousands. 1080 00:52:04,055 --> 00:52:06,656 You know, then, the next question is, well, why? 1081 00:52:06,756 --> 00:52:08,758 I mean, who's taking them? 1082 00:52:08,859 --> 00:52:11,728 Supposedly, the Satanists were taking the children. 1083 00:52:11,828 --> 00:52:13,598 I believe that they do. 1084 00:52:13,697 --> 00:52:15,932 I can't-- We can't prove that they do, 1085 00:52:16,033 --> 00:52:18,536 but as a law-enforcement officer, 1086 00:52:18,635 --> 00:52:23,040 I question two million children missing in the United States, 1087 00:52:23,141 --> 00:52:26,210 knowing that many, many of those are not runaways. 1088 00:52:26,310 --> 00:52:28,712 They were saying two million children 1089 00:52:28,812 --> 00:52:30,515 are sacrificed every year in the United States. 1090 00:52:30,615 --> 00:52:32,383 3.71 million children 1091 00:52:32,483 --> 00:52:34,051 were born every year in the States. 1092 00:52:34,152 --> 00:52:36,853 You're telling me that 54% of the children born 1093 00:52:36,953 --> 00:52:39,357 are all kidnapped and sacrificed? 1094 00:52:39,457 --> 00:52:40,690 Really? Like... 1095 00:52:40,790 --> 00:52:42,959 no evidence of that, folks. 1096 00:52:43,060 --> 00:52:44,828 The hard evidence is difficult to find, 1097 00:52:44,928 --> 00:52:46,564 because if a child is sacrificed, 1098 00:52:46,663 --> 00:52:48,665 that child's body isn't going to be left. 1099 00:52:48,765 --> 00:52:50,800 If it's an orthodox Satanic cult, 1100 00:52:50,901 --> 00:52:52,603 they're going to burn the body 1101 00:52:52,702 --> 00:52:54,138 and they're going to eat it during ceremony, 1102 00:52:54,238 --> 00:52:55,872 so they'll leave no evidence around. 1103 00:52:55,972 --> 00:52:57,741 The proof that we have had disappears. 1104 00:52:57,841 --> 00:52:59,843 W-What proof has disappeared, that we had? 1105 00:52:59,943 --> 00:53:03,147 Okay, a good example is I had, uh, baby wax. 1106 00:53:03,247 --> 00:53:04,549 What's "baby wax"? 1107 00:53:04,649 --> 00:53:05,682 Wax from a baby that was burned. 1108 00:53:05,782 --> 00:53:06,950 A baby that was burned 1109 00:53:07,051 --> 00:53:09,253 and the wax was made into a candle 1110 00:53:09,353 --> 00:53:10,521 of b-baby wax. 1111 00:53:10,621 --> 00:53:12,557 It's a very important thing in the cult. 1112 00:53:12,657 --> 00:53:15,393 They make candles out of babies? 1113 00:53:18,496 --> 00:53:20,598 It was part of the zeitgeist. 1114 00:53:20,697 --> 00:53:23,134 There was just a complete lack of skepticism. 1115 00:53:23,234 --> 00:53:24,569 I mean, 1116 00:53:24,669 --> 00:53:26,637 Michelle Remembers had something to do with that, right? 1117 00:53:26,736 --> 00:53:28,272 Because in Michelle Remembers, it's kind of, 1118 00:53:28,372 --> 00:53:30,707 "This is what's happening to the babies." 1119 00:53:31,975 --> 00:53:34,145 Within Michelle Remembers, 1120 00:53:34,245 --> 00:53:36,846 they use the term "Church of Satan" 1121 00:53:36,947 --> 00:53:38,549 to describe this... 1122 00:53:38,649 --> 00:53:41,851 cabal of vile, terrible people 1123 00:53:41,952 --> 00:53:44,488 doing these heinous criminal acts-- 1124 00:53:44,589 --> 00:53:46,923 saying that we sacrifice animals, 1125 00:53:47,024 --> 00:53:49,660 that we sacrifice babies... 1126 00:53:49,759 --> 00:53:53,030 but the whole point of the Church of Satan-- 1127 00:53:53,130 --> 00:53:56,133 what Anton LaVey founded in 1966-- 1128 00:53:56,234 --> 00:53:58,202 was liberation 1129 00:53:58,302 --> 00:54:00,804 and embracing our strangeness, our uniqueness, 1130 00:54:00,904 --> 00:54:03,773 the things that make us different from each other. 1131 00:54:03,873 --> 00:54:05,710 This is a very selfish religion. 1132 00:54:05,809 --> 00:54:06,711 We believe in greed. 1133 00:54:06,810 --> 00:54:07,712 We believe in selfishness. 1134 00:54:07,811 --> 00:54:09,080 We believe in 1135 00:54:09,180 --> 00:54:12,083 all of the lustful thoughts that motivate man 1136 00:54:12,183 --> 00:54:15,219 because this is man's natural, uh, feeling. 1137 00:54:15,319 --> 00:54:18,089 This is based on what man naturally would do. 1138 00:54:18,189 --> 00:54:20,924 Anton LaVey blended 1139 00:54:21,025 --> 00:54:24,028 magic and science and rationality, 1140 00:54:24,128 --> 00:54:26,830 and a lot of people, especially in those early days, 1141 00:54:26,930 --> 00:54:30,034 found the Church of Satan uniquely liberating, 1142 00:54:30,134 --> 00:54:32,336 for one reason or another. 1143 00:54:32,436 --> 00:54:34,005 They found Satanism 1144 00:54:34,105 --> 00:54:36,440 to be a celebration of their differences. 1145 00:54:36,540 --> 00:54:37,841 It wasn't a tolerance. 1146 00:54:37,941 --> 00:54:40,044 It was a celebration. 1147 00:54:40,144 --> 00:54:43,314 And that's what Satanism is to us, 1148 00:54:43,414 --> 00:54:44,548 to a Satanist. 1149 00:54:44,649 --> 00:54:46,617 Are you planning on training a lot of little devils? 1150 00:54:48,019 --> 00:54:50,087 Only those that wish to become little devils. 1151 00:54:50,187 --> 00:54:51,656 -Are you married? -Oh, yes. 1152 00:54:51,756 --> 00:54:52,723 Do you have any little devils? 1153 00:54:52,822 --> 00:54:53,990 Oh, yes. I have two. 1154 00:54:54,091 --> 00:54:56,127 Are you gonna raise them as Satanic kids? 1155 00:54:56,227 --> 00:54:57,161 Certainly, 1156 00:54:57,261 --> 00:54:58,763 but not to go around chopping people up 1157 00:54:58,862 --> 00:55:00,797 or sacrificing human beings. 1158 00:55:02,633 --> 00:55:03,867 One of the things 1159 00:55:03,967 --> 00:55:06,137 that Anton LaVey was particularly miffed about 1160 00:55:06,237 --> 00:55:09,774 was how Michelle Remembers was marketed-- 1161 00:55:09,873 --> 00:55:12,909 that it was supposedly a true story... 1162 00:55:14,078 --> 00:55:15,780 ...but Michelle Remembers, obviously, 1163 00:55:15,879 --> 00:55:17,782 is so chock full 1164 00:55:17,881 --> 00:55:21,652 of things that Satanism very clearly isn't. 1165 00:55:21,752 --> 00:55:24,322 He said we are an established religion, 1166 00:55:24,422 --> 00:55:27,991 protected by the Constitution of the United States. 1167 00:55:28,092 --> 00:55:29,460 Here they were, using it, 1168 00:55:29,560 --> 00:55:32,463 as if we were some international criminal organization. 1169 00:55:33,664 --> 00:55:35,099 And that's why the Church of Satan 1170 00:55:35,199 --> 00:55:37,901 brought a defamation suit against them 1171 00:55:38,001 --> 00:55:40,904 in the court of law in 1981. 1172 00:55:42,073 --> 00:55:45,509 And subsequent printings of Michelle Remembers 1173 00:55:45,609 --> 00:55:47,044 did take out 1174 00:55:47,144 --> 00:55:50,514 most of the references to the Church of Satan. 1175 00:55:51,582 --> 00:55:52,783 Hail Satan. 1176 00:55:52,882 --> 00:55:54,951 Hail Satan. 1177 00:55:58,456 --> 00:55:59,657 I don't believe 1178 00:55:59,757 --> 00:56:02,360 that my mom is that type of person 1179 00:56:02,460 --> 00:56:05,995 that would turn her child over to a Satanic cult. 1180 00:56:07,198 --> 00:56:11,435 It was not part of my childhood when I was a kid. 1181 00:56:12,436 --> 00:56:14,605 I couldn't see my mom doing that. 1182 00:56:14,705 --> 00:56:15,905 I just couldn't... 1183 00:56:16,006 --> 00:56:17,941 As a mother, 1184 00:56:18,042 --> 00:56:20,977 your instinct is to protect your child... 1185 00:56:21,078 --> 00:56:23,047 but when I was 10 years old, 1186 00:56:23,147 --> 00:56:26,851 my mom was diagnosed with non-Hodgkin's lymphoma, 1187 00:56:26,950 --> 00:56:28,652 and so she died shortly after that. 1188 00:56:29,787 --> 00:56:31,455 When my mom passed away, 1189 00:56:31,555 --> 00:56:33,257 her wish was that she wanted to be cremated. 1190 00:56:33,357 --> 00:56:35,459 She wanted to have her ashes put in the crypt. 1191 00:56:35,559 --> 00:56:38,295 This is how important this church was to her. 1192 00:56:41,632 --> 00:56:43,401 It was important to Mom. 1193 00:56:43,501 --> 00:56:46,070 You know, her marriage was not great, 1194 00:56:46,170 --> 00:56:48,672 so she came here for support. 1195 00:56:53,377 --> 00:56:55,312 In the book, 1196 00:56:55,413 --> 00:56:57,281 Michelle said that my mother was this horrible person, 1197 00:56:57,381 --> 00:57:00,651 giving up her little girl to a Satanic cult... 1198 00:57:01,786 --> 00:57:04,755 But I don't understand why Michelle would even think that. 1199 00:57:04,855 --> 00:57:06,956 What is wrong with her? 1200 00:57:08,159 --> 00:57:09,794 Why did you think 1201 00:57:09,894 --> 00:57:11,162 that there were others 1202 00:57:11,262 --> 00:57:13,130 who would have been through this experience? 1203 00:57:13,230 --> 00:57:14,732 Because when I was in that experience, 1204 00:57:14,832 --> 00:57:16,066 I wasn't the only child. 1205 00:57:16,167 --> 00:57:17,902 So there had to be others, 1206 00:57:18,001 --> 00:57:21,038 and I knew this wasn't an isolated thing in-- 1207 00:57:21,138 --> 00:57:22,173 in just Victoria. 1208 00:57:22,273 --> 00:57:24,175 I thought maybe there would be... 1209 00:57:24,275 --> 00:57:26,377 you know, unrealistic, 1210 00:57:26,477 --> 00:57:29,680 30, 60 people out there at the most, 1211 00:57:29,780 --> 00:57:30,915 not the hundreds... 1212 00:57:31,015 --> 00:57:32,982 It was in 1987, 1213 00:57:33,083 --> 00:57:35,419 and it was a conference in Richmond, Virginia, 1214 00:57:35,519 --> 00:57:37,721 where I met Dr. Pazder. 1215 00:57:37,822 --> 00:57:39,757 So we sat in this room 1216 00:57:39,857 --> 00:57:42,026 and Dr. Pazder was up at the podium 1217 00:57:42,126 --> 00:57:44,961 and Michelle was off to the side there. 1218 00:57:45,062 --> 00:57:46,996 One thing that really got me interested 1219 00:57:47,097 --> 00:57:49,333 is Dr. Pazder indicated 1220 00:57:49,433 --> 00:57:51,968 that he thought that most of the alleged cases 1221 00:57:52,069 --> 00:57:53,671 were a bunch of nonsense, 1222 00:57:53,771 --> 00:57:55,339 but he then said something 1223 00:57:55,439 --> 00:57:58,309 that I was just tremendously interested in. 1224 00:57:58,409 --> 00:58:02,480 "I'm gonna tell you how to identify the real cases." 1225 00:58:02,580 --> 00:58:05,316 So I said, "Man, this could be really valuable information," 1226 00:58:05,416 --> 00:58:07,351 because I never was one of those people who believed 1227 00:58:07,451 --> 00:58:09,986 they were all true or they were all false. 1228 00:58:10,087 --> 00:58:13,090 There can be a middle ground in here. 1229 00:58:13,190 --> 00:58:15,159 He would start to describe these rituals 1230 00:58:15,259 --> 00:58:17,828 and began to talk about Michelle. 1231 00:58:17,928 --> 00:58:20,130 But cops tend to ask a lot of questions, 1232 00:58:20,231 --> 00:58:22,999 so the cops in the audience began to raise their hand-- 1233 00:58:23,100 --> 00:58:24,468 "What about this?" "What about that?" 1234 00:58:24,568 --> 00:58:26,937 and-and I just kinda began to notice 1235 00:58:27,037 --> 00:58:28,806 that every time somebody asked a question, 1236 00:58:28,906 --> 00:58:30,608 Michelle never said a whole lot, 1237 00:58:30,708 --> 00:58:33,110 and he would always answer the question, 1238 00:58:33,210 --> 00:58:34,945 and after a while, 1239 00:58:35,045 --> 00:58:37,281 after this happened half a dozen times, 1240 00:58:37,381 --> 00:58:38,883 I just raised my hand, I said, 1241 00:58:38,983 --> 00:58:43,254 "I'm curious, when people ask-- this all happened to Michelle. 1242 00:58:43,354 --> 00:58:45,890 "How come she doesn't give the answer? 1243 00:58:45,990 --> 00:58:47,124 She turns to you." 1244 00:58:47,224 --> 00:58:49,026 He just said some version of-- 1245 00:58:49,126 --> 00:58:50,494 I don't remember his exact words-- 1246 00:58:50,594 --> 00:58:52,463 something like, "Well, when she first came to me, 1247 00:58:52,563 --> 00:58:54,298 she had no conscious memory of it, 1248 00:58:54,398 --> 00:58:55,933 and through this therapy, 1249 00:58:56,033 --> 00:59:00,070 this story began to come out over a year or more as time..." 1250 00:59:00,170 --> 00:59:03,774 and then he recorded it, wrote it all down, 1251 00:59:03,874 --> 00:59:05,175 and documented it, 1252 00:59:05,276 --> 00:59:07,411 and then after that... 1253 00:59:07,511 --> 00:59:09,213 it kind of-- most of it left her memory 1254 00:59:09,313 --> 00:59:11,982 and he was now the keeper of the story. 1255 00:59:12,082 --> 00:59:14,685 I decided that that greatly reduced the value 1256 00:59:14,785 --> 00:59:16,186 of what he was telling me, 1257 00:59:16,287 --> 00:59:17,555 so I put my pen down 1258 00:59:17,655 --> 00:59:20,391 and didn't take as many notes after that. 1259 00:59:20,491 --> 00:59:24,194 Every time she entered into a new area of working, 1260 00:59:24,295 --> 00:59:25,896 everything that she had said before 1261 00:59:25,996 --> 00:59:27,331 was totally consistent, 1262 00:59:27,431 --> 00:59:30,768 and then, when she had completed what she had done, 1263 00:59:30,868 --> 00:59:34,204 and was completely free of it... 1264 00:59:34,305 --> 00:59:36,540 it had a ring of truth to it, that I said, you know, 1265 00:59:36,640 --> 00:59:39,910 "This is not accountable from anything in the literature, 1266 00:59:40,011 --> 00:59:41,178 except from the fact 1267 00:59:41,278 --> 00:59:42,413 that she'd been through that experience." 1268 00:59:42,513 --> 00:59:44,715 There's no other way I can explain it. 1269 00:59:44,815 --> 00:59:46,984 During, I think, the lunch break, 1270 00:59:47,084 --> 00:59:48,419 somehow, it just came out-- 1271 00:59:48,519 --> 00:59:50,254 although, he didn't try to hide it, 1272 00:59:50,354 --> 00:59:54,191 but it came out that Michelle was now his wife, 1273 00:59:54,291 --> 00:59:56,594 and that was another factor that caused me to think, 1274 00:59:56,694 --> 00:59:58,429 "Well, that's kind of an inappropriate," you know, 1275 00:59:58,529 --> 01:00:00,497 "doctor-patient kind of a thing. 1276 01:00:00,598 --> 01:00:03,767 How did that affect this story that he's now telling?" 1277 01:00:05,402 --> 01:00:08,238 I think Michelle loved Larry. 1278 01:00:09,306 --> 01:00:11,709 She worshipped him. 1279 01:00:11,809 --> 01:00:15,946 But him and Michelle were exact opposites, 1280 01:00:16,047 --> 01:00:17,715 and, uh... 1281 01:00:17,815 --> 01:00:24,722 I can't figure out why Larry married her. 1282 01:00:24,822 --> 01:00:27,524 I really can't. I-I... 1283 01:00:28,525 --> 01:00:31,295 You know, would it come from a-- 1284 01:00:31,395 --> 01:00:33,263 from needing to protect her? 1285 01:00:33,364 --> 01:00:36,333 I know he felt a need to-to protect her 1286 01:00:36,433 --> 01:00:38,469 and look after her... 1287 01:00:38,569 --> 01:00:42,272 but marrying her is a whole different ball game. 1288 01:00:44,942 --> 01:00:46,710 We always thought 1289 01:00:46,810 --> 01:00:51,281 there was a reason why he had to marry her. 1290 01:00:51,382 --> 01:00:53,550 You know, he's a psychiatrist, 1291 01:00:53,651 --> 01:00:56,320 and he crossed the line with her. 1292 01:00:59,189 --> 01:01:02,493 And she had tied him into that lie so tightly 1293 01:01:02,593 --> 01:01:03,927 with that book, 1294 01:01:04,029 --> 01:01:06,330 that there was no getting out of it. 1295 01:01:07,464 --> 01:01:09,967 We're never told that a sexual relationship 1296 01:01:10,068 --> 01:01:11,935 begins between Michelle and the doctor 1297 01:01:12,037 --> 01:01:14,438 at any time during therapy, 1298 01:01:14,538 --> 01:01:17,274 but regardless of what you think 1299 01:01:17,374 --> 01:01:18,976 about what did or didn't happen 1300 01:01:19,077 --> 01:01:20,244 or what we're not being told, 1301 01:01:20,344 --> 01:01:22,413 I think you can take what they say 1302 01:01:22,513 --> 01:01:24,281 at face value in this regard 1303 01:01:24,381 --> 01:01:29,353 and still see a wildly unethical relationship. 1304 01:01:32,489 --> 01:01:34,224 After they got married, 1305 01:01:34,324 --> 01:01:36,427 everything stopped. 1306 01:01:36,527 --> 01:01:38,262 She just wanted a normal life. 1307 01:01:39,430 --> 01:01:40,764 I know that Oprah Winfrey called. 1308 01:01:40,864 --> 01:01:43,734 I was there at the house when I picked up the phone, 1309 01:01:43,834 --> 01:01:47,404 and... and, uh, Michelle says, "I don't want to talk to them." 1310 01:01:47,504 --> 01:01:49,206 You know, there are thousands of men and women 1311 01:01:49,306 --> 01:01:50,507 who are secretly worshipping the Devil. 1312 01:01:50,607 --> 01:01:51,709 The Devil! 1313 01:01:51,809 --> 01:01:53,243 If you'd like to join that audience on Thursday 1314 01:01:53,343 --> 01:01:55,412 when we discuss Satanism, 1315 01:01:55,512 --> 01:01:57,948 call now to reserve your seats. 1316 01:01:58,049 --> 01:01:59,416 The daily talk shows-- 1317 01:01:59,516 --> 01:02:01,485 people, today, I don't think realize 1318 01:02:01,585 --> 01:02:04,521 how pervasive these opinions were. 1319 01:02:04,621 --> 01:02:06,124 Why, Doctor, 1320 01:02:06,223 --> 01:02:08,425 would you perform an exorcism 1321 01:02:08,525 --> 01:02:12,396 on a patient who came to you to seek psychological help? 1322 01:02:13,497 --> 01:02:14,665 Well, because the patient 1323 01:02:14,765 --> 01:02:17,168 who was referred to me by the State 1324 01:02:17,267 --> 01:02:19,703 was a Satanic ritual survivor. 1325 01:02:19,803 --> 01:02:21,605 At the time, 1326 01:02:21,705 --> 01:02:24,641 these talk shows would be several times a day, 1327 01:02:24,742 --> 01:02:26,744 and they were very well respected, 1328 01:02:26,844 --> 01:02:31,615 but they were all feeding on the Satanic Panic. 1329 01:02:31,715 --> 01:02:34,852 Explain to us what really did happen 1330 01:02:34,952 --> 01:02:36,453 over these 17 years. 1331 01:02:36,553 --> 01:02:38,489 They started a Satanic cult when I was five. 1332 01:02:38,589 --> 01:02:40,290 -Who did? -My parents. 1333 01:02:40,390 --> 01:02:42,326 They would either kill an animal, 1334 01:02:42,426 --> 01:02:43,627 sometimes they would kill a baby-- 1335 01:02:43,727 --> 01:02:45,662 A baby? Where would they get babies? 1336 01:02:45,763 --> 01:02:47,165 Um... 1337 01:02:47,264 --> 01:02:52,402 sometimes, people in the cult would have them just for this-- 1338 01:02:52,503 --> 01:02:54,905 ...and then when it was... 1339 01:02:55,006 --> 01:02:56,340 ...when it was dead, 1340 01:02:56,440 --> 01:02:59,343 then people in the group ate parts of it. 1341 01:02:59,443 --> 01:03:01,246 Dr. LaVey said, "I'd love 1342 01:03:01,345 --> 01:03:03,514 for somebody to call them on their bullshit," 1343 01:03:03,614 --> 01:03:04,815 but they wouldn't do it, 1344 01:03:04,915 --> 01:03:06,750 because it wouldn't make good television. 1345 01:03:06,850 --> 01:03:09,087 In a nutshell, there was a lot of craziness. 1346 01:03:09,187 --> 01:03:11,555 It was a fearful time, 1347 01:03:11,655 --> 01:03:14,625 and the one big promotion of it, 1348 01:03:14,725 --> 01:03:17,728 the one really big promotion of it, 1349 01:03:17,828 --> 01:03:20,531 was Geraldo's three-hour program 1350 01:03:20,631 --> 01:03:23,300 about Satanic cult crime in the United States. 1351 01:03:23,400 --> 01:03:25,469 Of course, millions of people saw it. 1352 01:03:25,569 --> 01:03:27,805 Millions of those people who had preconceptions 1353 01:03:27,905 --> 01:03:28,906 believed it, 1354 01:03:29,007 --> 01:03:31,142 and it caused a lot of harm. 1355 01:03:31,242 --> 01:03:32,409 These women say 1356 01:03:32,509 --> 01:03:34,012 they speak from personal experience. 1357 01:03:34,112 --> 01:03:35,512 They claim to be breeders, 1358 01:03:35,612 --> 01:03:38,415 forced by covens to bear children. 1359 01:03:38,515 --> 01:03:41,119 Did you give birth to infants who were sacrificed? 1360 01:03:41,219 --> 01:03:42,352 My first two. 1361 01:03:42,452 --> 01:03:44,155 -Were sacrificed? -Were sacrificed. 1362 01:03:44,255 --> 01:03:45,489 I was told it was 1363 01:03:45,589 --> 01:03:47,192 the highest honour I could ever do as a woman 1364 01:03:47,292 --> 01:03:49,160 was to sacrifice my first two. 1365 01:03:53,264 --> 01:03:54,431 There's a part of me that wants to think 1366 01:03:54,531 --> 01:03:56,500 that these people are just flat-out nuts-- 1367 01:03:56,600 --> 01:03:57,968 and some of them are, don't get me wrong! 1368 01:03:59,903 --> 01:04:00,771 And you look at this, 1369 01:04:00,871 --> 01:04:03,774 and you say, "Are these people...?" 1370 01:04:03,874 --> 01:04:05,642 It is most common 1371 01:04:05,742 --> 01:04:11,216 for the heart to be taken from the child... 1372 01:04:11,316 --> 01:04:12,783 and offered to Satan. 1373 01:04:14,551 --> 01:04:15,886 Today, a lot of people 1374 01:04:15,986 --> 01:04:19,356 think that the Satanic Panic was sort of a joke... 1375 01:04:20,724 --> 01:04:23,294 ...but a lot of conditions were created during that time 1376 01:04:23,393 --> 01:04:25,029 for people to get more interested 1377 01:04:25,129 --> 01:04:28,365 in the idea that evil, bad things were going on, 1378 01:04:28,465 --> 01:04:29,900 and you know, one of those things 1379 01:04:30,000 --> 01:04:32,002 that you could really hang your hat on 1380 01:04:32,103 --> 01:04:33,071 was Satan. 1381 01:04:34,371 --> 01:04:36,773 And... it was dead serious. 1382 01:04:38,309 --> 01:04:40,377 The Essex County Prosecutor's Office says 1383 01:04:40,477 --> 01:04:42,412 26-year-old Margaret Kelly Michaels 1384 01:04:42,512 --> 01:04:44,481 is a manipulative, sadistic, child... 1385 01:04:44,581 --> 01:04:45,816 Preschool teacher Michaels 1386 01:04:45,916 --> 01:04:47,985 was convicted of molesting 19 children. 1387 01:04:48,086 --> 01:04:50,054 Molesting them in bizarre ways, 1388 01:04:50,154 --> 01:04:51,256 and in the middle 1389 01:04:51,356 --> 01:04:52,756 of this crowded New Jersey school 1390 01:04:52,856 --> 01:04:56,693 without any teacher or parent noticing anything. 1391 01:04:57,594 --> 01:05:00,098 I covered the Kelly Michaels' case 1392 01:05:00,198 --> 01:05:01,465 and I walked into that jail, 1393 01:05:01,565 --> 01:05:03,067 and it was so filthy, 1394 01:05:03,167 --> 01:05:04,269 and I interviewed her, 1395 01:05:04,369 --> 01:05:05,469 and it was terrible 1396 01:05:05,569 --> 01:05:07,804 to see this happen to a young woman, 1397 01:05:07,905 --> 01:05:10,407 because, you know, I felt like that could have been me. 1398 01:05:10,507 --> 01:05:11,942 I mean, I could've gone, 1399 01:05:12,043 --> 01:05:15,579 worked in a daycare centre when I was in my early 20s. 1400 01:05:15,679 --> 01:05:20,051 It was very vicious, what was done to her. 1401 01:05:20,151 --> 01:05:24,222 They say you inserted objects, including LEGO blocks, 1402 01:05:24,322 --> 01:05:26,556 forks, spoons, serrated knives 1403 01:05:26,657 --> 01:05:28,992 into their anuses, vaginas-- 1404 01:05:29,093 --> 01:05:30,560 And a sword, that was in-- 1405 01:05:30,661 --> 01:05:31,995 -...And a sword? -Yeah, yeah. 1406 01:05:32,096 --> 01:05:34,665 That you made children drink your urine, 1407 01:05:34,765 --> 01:05:37,734 that you made kids take their clothes off, 1408 01:05:37,834 --> 01:05:40,003 and licked peanut butter off them? 1409 01:05:40,104 --> 01:05:42,373 It's very hard to believe, 1410 01:05:42,472 --> 01:05:45,742 yet the jury believed it and not you. 1411 01:05:45,842 --> 01:05:48,478 No one is willing to doubt a child. 1412 01:05:49,846 --> 01:05:51,748 There were people who went to jail 1413 01:05:51,848 --> 01:05:55,219 as a consequence of the Satanic Panic. 1414 01:05:55,320 --> 01:05:58,122 Certainly, Michelle Remembers -- 1415 01:05:59,456 --> 01:06:01,359 ...all of it can't be laid at the foot 1416 01:06:01,491 --> 01:06:03,593 of one book, two people, 1417 01:06:03,694 --> 01:06:06,530 but they sure didn't help. 1418 01:06:06,630 --> 01:06:09,167 They did an enormous amount of damage. 1419 01:06:09,267 --> 01:06:10,767 They ruined people's lives. 1420 01:06:10,867 --> 01:06:13,570 They cost them enormous amounts of money. 1421 01:06:13,670 --> 01:06:16,773 They put misinformation out there knowingly. 1422 01:06:17,874 --> 01:06:20,111 Tell as big a lie as possible with a straight face, 1423 01:06:20,211 --> 01:06:21,645 and just keep tellin' it. 1424 01:06:21,745 --> 01:06:23,580 It works, to a certain extent-- 1425 01:06:23,680 --> 01:06:26,717 it works until those of us who are... 1426 01:06:28,319 --> 01:06:29,586 ...paying attention 1427 01:06:29,686 --> 01:06:31,456 stand up and challenge it. 1428 01:06:32,923 --> 01:06:34,524 It's a very interesting question 1429 01:06:34,624 --> 01:06:38,296 when people talk about where this began... 1430 01:06:39,330 --> 01:06:43,101 ...and so, Dr. Pazder's ex-wife sent me a letter. 1431 01:06:43,967 --> 01:06:45,836 She had heard my name was out there, 1432 01:06:45,936 --> 01:06:47,838 and she knew I was looking into all of this, 1433 01:06:47,938 --> 01:06:50,607 and she said that she could tell me 1434 01:06:50,707 --> 01:06:52,043 and explain to me 1435 01:06:52,143 --> 01:06:55,645 how all of this evolved and how all this came to be. 1436 01:06:57,748 --> 01:06:59,983 We didn't know 1437 01:07:00,084 --> 01:07:03,587 that people had gone to prison because of the book... 1438 01:07:03,687 --> 01:07:07,591 and that was, I think, about 1990 that I realized. 1439 01:07:07,691 --> 01:07:09,526 It was just a terrible shock. 1440 01:07:09,626 --> 01:07:10,927 It was just terrible. 1441 01:07:11,029 --> 01:07:14,332 We were-- It was just terrible. 1442 01:07:16,633 --> 01:07:18,369 But I felt that, if people were in jail, 1443 01:07:18,469 --> 01:07:19,803 it's our responsibility 1444 01:07:19,903 --> 01:07:22,973 to do everything that we can to help those people. 1445 01:07:24,075 --> 01:07:27,744 So anybody that came to Victoria... 1446 01:07:27,844 --> 01:07:30,947 I would just help them the best I could. 1447 01:07:33,251 --> 01:07:36,287 My mom started looking into it, 1448 01:07:36,387 --> 01:07:38,822 and she went to the house, 1449 01:07:38,922 --> 01:07:41,426 she went to the neighbours, 1450 01:07:41,526 --> 01:07:43,660 she went to the school records. 1451 01:07:44,828 --> 01:07:46,997 I went to the registry. 1452 01:07:47,098 --> 01:07:49,033 We found out every place she lived, 1453 01:07:49,133 --> 01:07:50,268 where she was, 1454 01:07:50,368 --> 01:07:51,536 went to the neighbours, 1455 01:07:51,635 --> 01:07:54,205 and we gave that evidence 1456 01:07:54,305 --> 01:07:57,208 to the different investigations in the States 1457 01:07:57,308 --> 01:07:58,975 and that sort of thing. 1458 01:07:59,077 --> 01:08:01,345 They were very specific claims, 1459 01:08:01,446 --> 01:08:02,513 Michelle Remembers , 1460 01:08:02,612 --> 01:08:04,015 about a certain period of time, 1461 01:08:04,115 --> 01:08:07,418 and she named the time-- I believe it was 1955-- 1462 01:08:07,518 --> 01:08:09,619 where she was gone, 1463 01:08:09,719 --> 01:08:12,190 she was held captive by these Satanists, 1464 01:08:12,290 --> 01:08:15,126 and so we thought it should be pretty easy, 1465 01:08:15,226 --> 01:08:17,528 you know, to see whether we can find her 1466 01:08:17,627 --> 01:08:18,995 during that time. 1467 01:08:21,631 --> 01:08:23,101 We just went to the school... 1468 01:08:24,235 --> 01:08:27,071 ...and asked them for the yearbook. 1469 01:08:27,171 --> 01:08:30,241 They have a collection of all the yearbooks. 1470 01:08:30,341 --> 01:08:31,775 Her picture was right there. 1471 01:08:31,875 --> 01:08:34,778 And they said the picture was taken in the fall, 1472 01:08:34,878 --> 01:08:37,048 while she was supposed to be locked up. 1473 01:08:37,148 --> 01:08:37,914 She wasn't. 1474 01:08:38,015 --> 01:08:40,051 Her picture was right there. 1475 01:08:40,151 --> 01:08:42,353 There she was. 1476 01:08:42,453 --> 01:08:44,255 You can't deny it. 1477 01:08:45,789 --> 01:08:47,924 Could this possibly have happened? 1478 01:08:48,025 --> 01:08:50,027 Is there any truth to any part of this? 1479 01:08:50,861 --> 01:08:53,930 You go, okay, you're describing 1480 01:08:54,031 --> 01:08:58,269 these rituals in which you are severely treated. 1481 01:08:58,369 --> 01:08:59,903 They cut you up with knives 1482 01:09:00,003 --> 01:09:01,606 and they sew things onto your body 1483 01:09:01,705 --> 01:09:02,772 that are ripped off, 1484 01:09:02,873 --> 01:09:04,242 and they knock out your teeth, 1485 01:09:04,342 --> 01:09:05,709 and they do all these things... 1486 01:09:05,809 --> 01:09:08,379 ...and then... 1487 01:09:08,479 --> 01:09:10,047 miraculously, 1488 01:09:10,148 --> 01:09:12,849 the Angel Michael comes and takes all your scars away? 1489 01:09:14,385 --> 01:09:16,621 This is ridiculous, you know? 1490 01:09:16,720 --> 01:09:18,055 I mean... 1491 01:09:18,156 --> 01:09:20,391 the Virgin Mary appears and speaks to you in French. 1492 01:09:20,491 --> 01:09:22,059 What? 1493 01:09:23,094 --> 01:09:24,861 "Ma Mรจre" is really the Virgin Mary? 1494 01:09:24,961 --> 01:09:27,131 -Yes, the Virgin Mary. -She spoke in French? 1495 01:09:31,902 --> 01:09:33,003 Well, throughout the experience-- 1496 01:09:36,240 --> 01:09:38,309 I remember hearing my sister 1497 01:09:38,409 --> 01:09:40,011 on the radio broadcast, 1498 01:09:40,111 --> 01:09:42,413 and she said, "Oh, but I-- I never knew French." 1499 01:09:42,513 --> 01:09:43,780 I was like, "Yes, you did. 1500 01:09:43,880 --> 01:09:46,450 You took it in high school, for one thing, 1501 01:09:46,551 --> 01:09:49,187 and you won an award for it, because you were so good." 1502 01:09:49,287 --> 01:09:51,422 Plus, my grandfather spoke fluent French 1503 01:09:51,522 --> 01:09:52,889 and she used to converse with him, 1504 01:09:52,989 --> 01:09:54,891 and she said, "I've never spoken French ever in my life, 1505 01:09:54,991 --> 01:09:57,195 and it just poured out of me." 1506 01:09:57,295 --> 01:09:59,896 You know, just like the lies poured out of her. 1507 01:10:01,265 --> 01:10:03,301 There's just a variety of things 1508 01:10:03,401 --> 01:10:05,636 that can go on in therapy 1509 01:10:05,735 --> 01:10:07,737 that we now know 1510 01:10:07,837 --> 01:10:10,441 can lead people to false memories. 1511 01:10:10,541 --> 01:10:13,578 Guided imagination is one. 1512 01:10:13,678 --> 01:10:15,613 Using hypnosis is another one. 1513 01:10:15,712 --> 01:10:18,516 Particular kinds of dream interpretation 1514 01:10:18,616 --> 01:10:20,717 can lead people to false memories. 1515 01:10:20,817 --> 01:10:23,487 Suggesting things to the patient. 1516 01:10:23,588 --> 01:10:25,089 Reinforcing the patient 1517 01:10:25,189 --> 01:10:28,426 with, you know, attention and interest 1518 01:10:28,526 --> 01:10:30,461 and other kinds of rewards 1519 01:10:30,561 --> 01:10:32,762 when the patient remembers 1520 01:10:32,862 --> 01:10:35,666 what the therapist wants the patient to remember, 1521 01:10:35,765 --> 01:10:39,303 and sometimes, the more lurid, the better, 1522 01:10:39,403 --> 01:10:44,075 in terms of producing a reward for that patient. 1523 01:10:46,110 --> 01:10:49,113 The Michelle Remembers story 1524 01:10:49,213 --> 01:10:54,518 does seem to be a case that has all these ingredients 1525 01:10:54,619 --> 01:10:56,621 that are known to lead people 1526 01:10:56,721 --> 01:10:57,887 to think they have 1527 01:10:57,988 --> 01:10:59,624 repressed memories they've recovered, 1528 01:10:59,724 --> 01:11:01,925 but then there's this weird little thing 1529 01:11:02,026 --> 01:11:04,328 about how they get married. 1530 01:11:04,428 --> 01:11:07,365 So, um... 1531 01:11:07,465 --> 01:11:08,798 I-I don't know what to think 1532 01:11:08,898 --> 01:11:12,470 about the sexual, romantic element. 1533 01:11:12,570 --> 01:11:14,871 That-That's a little different 1534 01:11:14,971 --> 01:11:18,476 than what you see in the typical repressed memory case, 1535 01:11:18,576 --> 01:11:20,877 but that could mean 1536 01:11:20,977 --> 01:11:25,349 there was even greater interest on her part 1537 01:11:25,449 --> 01:11:28,419 to do whatever she presumed 1538 01:11:28,519 --> 01:11:33,024 her romantic interest would like to be done. 1539 01:11:36,060 --> 01:11:37,695 In the book, 1540 01:11:37,794 --> 01:11:40,464 very, very often what is happening 1541 01:11:40,564 --> 01:11:42,233 is she's telling a story 1542 01:11:42,333 --> 01:11:44,168 and then Lawrence is interpreting it 1543 01:11:44,268 --> 01:11:47,171 in terms of his experiences in West Africa, 1544 01:11:47,271 --> 01:11:48,139 where he did 1545 01:11:48,239 --> 01:11:50,508 medical missionary work for a while, 1546 01:11:50,608 --> 01:11:53,744 and he keeps mentioning that this is like those practices. 1547 01:11:55,613 --> 01:11:59,417 We know that he witnessed some tribal ceremonies, 1548 01:11:59,517 --> 01:12:03,020 he filmed them... 1549 01:12:03,120 --> 01:12:04,588 but you look at it and you go, 1550 01:12:04,689 --> 01:12:06,057 "Okay, I believe you saw this, but I don't believe 1551 01:12:06,157 --> 01:12:08,125 you understood what you were looking at," 1552 01:12:08,225 --> 01:12:11,895 but she has grabbed pieces of it 1553 01:12:11,995 --> 01:12:13,764 and is pulling this information out of it 1554 01:12:13,863 --> 01:12:15,399 and incorporating it into her story 1555 01:12:15,499 --> 01:12:17,635 so that he can recognize it, 1556 01:12:17,735 --> 01:12:19,437 and then try and make the connection, 1557 01:12:19,537 --> 01:12:23,274 and, like, put this-- this story together, 1558 01:12:23,374 --> 01:12:25,109 this false story of these memories. 1559 01:12:26,843 --> 01:12:29,246 You know, people see what they want to see. 1560 01:12:29,347 --> 01:12:30,581 I mean... 1561 01:12:30,681 --> 01:12:33,351 he's very Catholic, so what does he want to see? 1562 01:12:33,451 --> 01:12:36,187 He wants to see angels. He wants to see demons. 1563 01:12:36,287 --> 01:12:39,190 He wants to see that sort of stuff. 1564 01:12:40,324 --> 01:12:41,692 This book features 1565 01:12:41,792 --> 01:12:44,894 an extraordinary number of dead babies. 1566 01:12:44,994 --> 01:12:46,263 By the end, 1567 01:12:46,364 --> 01:12:48,632 it's just a baby slaughterhouse, 1568 01:12:48,733 --> 01:12:50,634 and... 1569 01:12:50,735 --> 01:12:53,804 if your patient starts seeing you again 1570 01:12:53,903 --> 01:12:56,073 because they're feeling extreme grief 1571 01:12:56,173 --> 01:12:57,907 over a miscarriage, 1572 01:12:58,008 --> 01:13:00,478 and if they are telling you 1573 01:13:00,578 --> 01:13:03,647 again and again these stories about dead babies, 1574 01:13:03,748 --> 01:13:06,117 I would imagine that this patient 1575 01:13:06,217 --> 01:13:09,120 could be feeling incredible, unresolved guilt 1576 01:13:09,220 --> 01:13:10,920 about the miscarriage. 1577 01:13:13,090 --> 01:13:16,460 But Dr. Pazder is Catholic... 1578 01:13:17,927 --> 01:13:20,030 ...and so he decides 1579 01:13:20,131 --> 01:13:24,901 that whatever Satanic image appears to Michelle 1580 01:13:25,001 --> 01:13:26,237 connects to something 1581 01:13:26,337 --> 01:13:30,541 that literally, physically happened to her... 1582 01:13:30,641 --> 01:13:32,076 and I think 1583 01:13:32,176 --> 01:13:35,513 one of the things that stories about demonic possession, 1584 01:13:35,613 --> 01:13:37,681 stories about Satanism 1585 01:13:37,782 --> 01:13:39,116 tell us, 1586 01:13:39,216 --> 01:13:41,585 is that there's a very clear answer for all of this, 1587 01:13:41,685 --> 01:13:43,120 and it's God. 1588 01:13:45,089 --> 01:13:46,657 My dad was convinced 1589 01:13:46,757 --> 01:13:50,227 that this was a really big thing. 1590 01:13:50,327 --> 01:13:52,163 I really think he thought he was on 1591 01:13:52,263 --> 01:13:53,697 some kind of mission from God. 1592 01:13:55,733 --> 01:13:58,569 And I lost my faith completely. 1593 01:13:58,669 --> 01:14:01,172 Like, I saw the Church as being a part of it. 1594 01:14:01,272 --> 01:14:04,809 The Church is, you know, drinking this in, 1595 01:14:04,909 --> 01:14:06,644 and encouraging it. 1596 01:14:08,045 --> 01:14:09,713 We found some documentation 1597 01:14:09,814 --> 01:14:12,216 about the fact that the book 1598 01:14:12,316 --> 01:14:15,085 was actually subsidized by the local Catholic church. 1599 01:14:15,186 --> 01:14:16,854 Whether that was a local project 1600 01:14:16,953 --> 01:14:19,256 or whether it went beyond local, I don't know... 1601 01:14:19,356 --> 01:14:22,893 but it certainly, you know, seemed like 1602 01:14:23,027 --> 01:14:24,829 it was a inspirational book for Catholics-- 1603 01:14:24,929 --> 01:14:26,597 Michelle Remembers -- 1604 01:14:26,697 --> 01:14:28,232 and to the point where 1605 01:14:28,332 --> 01:14:31,068 the Church was willing to subsidize it. 1606 01:14:42,246 --> 01:14:44,148 I don't have a problem with Christianity-- 1607 01:14:44,248 --> 01:14:45,549 I have a problem with Church-ianity. 1608 01:14:45,649 --> 01:14:46,817 It's a business. 1609 01:14:46,917 --> 01:14:48,586 They're making money, right? 1610 01:14:48,686 --> 01:14:52,022 It's got nothing to do with being devout. 1611 01:14:53,624 --> 01:14:56,460 Most of the people involved in putting this out there, 1612 01:14:56,560 --> 01:14:58,995 they actually are interested in three things-- 1613 01:14:59,096 --> 01:15:01,866 power, influence, and money... 1614 01:15:02,900 --> 01:15:05,236 ...and they realize this is a way that they can get it. 1615 01:15:05,336 --> 01:15:07,304 "I know that I can use this information 1616 01:15:07,404 --> 01:15:08,739 to make you fearful and pay me money. 1617 01:15:08,839 --> 01:15:10,341 I don't care that it's a lie. 1618 01:15:10,441 --> 01:15:12,076 I know it's a lie, but it's not important. 1619 01:15:12,176 --> 01:15:14,478 I need your money. I'm gonna get it. 1620 01:15:14,578 --> 01:15:16,013 I need your attention. I want to get it. 1621 01:15:16,113 --> 01:15:19,116 I need power over people. 1622 01:15:19,216 --> 01:15:20,985 You will give it to me, 1623 01:15:21,085 --> 01:15:23,354 because you'll see me as your saviour." Okay? 1624 01:15:23,454 --> 01:15:26,190 Over and over and over again. 1625 01:15:29,326 --> 01:15:30,628 "Ironic," I guess, 1626 01:15:30,728 --> 01:15:32,930 is the word that some people would use. 1627 01:15:33,030 --> 01:15:34,999 But I've been involved in many, many cases 1628 01:15:35,099 --> 01:15:38,102 involving Catholic priests who are molesting kids, 1629 01:15:38,202 --> 01:15:39,670 and yet, I've had people tell me-- 1630 01:15:39,770 --> 01:15:41,105 devout Catholics say, 1631 01:15:41,205 --> 01:15:42,773 "Yes, you know these priests who are molesting kids? 1632 01:15:42,873 --> 01:15:43,741 You know who they are?" 1633 01:15:43,841 --> 01:15:45,010 I said, "Who are they?" 1634 01:15:45,109 --> 01:15:46,644 "They are Satanists 1635 01:15:46,744 --> 01:15:48,846 who have infiltrated the Catholic Church 1636 01:15:48,946 --> 01:15:50,247 to destroy it." 1637 01:15:50,347 --> 01:15:52,650 Okay. 1638 01:16:00,491 --> 01:16:03,994 As the Satanic Panic wound down, 1639 01:16:04,094 --> 01:16:06,597 like, around '91, '92, 1640 01:16:06,697 --> 01:16:09,366 a lot of it had to do with insurance companies, 1641 01:16:09,466 --> 01:16:12,536 because the therapists and psychiatrists 1642 01:16:12,636 --> 01:16:13,537 and psychologists, 1643 01:16:13,637 --> 01:16:14,605 they were being paid, 1644 01:16:14,705 --> 01:16:17,141 sometimes covered by insurance companies, 1645 01:16:17,241 --> 01:16:19,276 for these-- for this endless counselling, 1646 01:16:19,376 --> 01:16:22,013 and the insurance companies started investigating. 1647 01:16:22,112 --> 01:16:24,114 They said, "We're not gonna pay anymore." 1648 01:16:25,215 --> 01:16:26,517 Some of these patients 1649 01:16:26,617 --> 01:16:30,187 began to realize their memories were false 1650 01:16:30,287 --> 01:16:34,825 and that they had been planted by the psychotherapy. 1651 01:16:34,925 --> 01:16:36,727 Some of them sued their therapists 1652 01:16:36,827 --> 01:16:38,162 for planting false memories, 1653 01:16:38,262 --> 01:16:42,067 and they ended up with these huge settlements. 1654 01:16:42,166 --> 01:16:45,302 I could not stand... 1655 01:16:45,402 --> 01:16:47,371 what was happening to my brain, 1656 01:16:47,471 --> 01:16:49,074 and the memories, and the thoughts, 1657 01:16:49,173 --> 01:16:50,574 and the pictures. 1658 01:16:50,674 --> 01:16:52,142 Although Dr. Hosen claimed 1659 01:16:52,242 --> 01:16:54,012 that he did nothing wrong, 1660 01:16:54,111 --> 01:16:55,479 his insurance company settled 1661 01:16:55,579 --> 01:16:59,216 and they paid Nadine Gould $2.4 million. 1662 01:16:59,316 --> 01:17:01,585 I didn't even know... 1663 01:17:01,685 --> 01:17:04,588 that this doctor was a fraud until recently. 1664 01:17:04,688 --> 01:17:06,690 And it didn't happen to just us. 1665 01:17:06,790 --> 01:17:08,959 It happened to our children, 1666 01:17:09,060 --> 01:17:10,260 our significant others, 1667 01:17:10,361 --> 01:17:13,564 our spouses or ex-spouses, to our family. 1668 01:17:13,664 --> 01:17:16,767 The issue is that counsellors and therapists 1669 01:17:16,867 --> 01:17:18,135 are leading people astray 1670 01:17:18,235 --> 01:17:19,603 and destroying families. 1671 01:17:19,703 --> 01:17:21,672 We need laws. We need things changed. 1672 01:17:21,772 --> 01:17:25,010 They need to be made accountable for what they're doing. 1673 01:17:25,110 --> 01:17:26,011 Also, things got laughable. 1674 01:17:27,578 --> 01:17:30,414 There was the Church Lady from Saturday Night Live. 1675 01:17:30,514 --> 01:17:32,182 Who could it be? Oh, I don't know... 1676 01:17:34,085 --> 01:17:35,653 ...Satan? 1677 01:17:35,753 --> 01:17:38,722 All of this has to do with the changing zeitgeist, 1678 01:17:38,822 --> 01:17:40,491 and people understood then 1679 01:17:40,591 --> 01:17:43,560 that this was all pretty-- pretty absurd and out-there. 1680 01:17:45,362 --> 01:17:48,432 A bunch of people were falsely prosecuted. 1681 01:17:48,532 --> 01:17:53,404 They wasted millions of dollars, police chasing after ghosts. 1682 01:17:53,504 --> 01:17:55,406 All right. We are ready for the jury. 1683 01:17:55,506 --> 01:17:57,541 Raymond Buckey and his mother, Peggy, 1684 01:17:57,641 --> 01:18:00,244 were the only McMartin defendants to stand trial. 1685 01:18:00,344 --> 01:18:02,279 We, the jury, in the above entitled action 1686 01:18:02,379 --> 01:18:05,050 find the varied defendants 1687 01:18:05,150 --> 01:18:07,118 not guilty. 1688 01:18:07,217 --> 01:18:08,686 Preschool teacher Michaels served 1689 01:18:08,786 --> 01:18:10,521 five years in jail until this year, 1690 01:18:10,621 --> 01:18:11,855 when her conviction was overturned 1691 01:18:11,955 --> 01:18:13,457 by an appeals court 1692 01:18:13,557 --> 01:18:16,493 that questioned the reliability of the children's testimony. 1693 01:18:16,593 --> 01:18:19,030 Childhood sexual abuse does happen, 1694 01:18:19,130 --> 01:18:20,964 but there is something else going on, 1695 01:18:21,066 --> 01:18:22,533 and that is whether some therapists 1696 01:18:22,633 --> 01:18:24,368 are actually encouraging individuals 1697 01:18:24,468 --> 01:18:26,804 to believe in abuse that didn't happen. 1698 01:18:28,639 --> 01:18:31,675 A lot of these things simply didn't happen. 1699 01:18:38,582 --> 01:18:40,851 But the thing that really scares me 1700 01:18:40,951 --> 01:18:42,686 is that, as people say, 1701 01:18:42,786 --> 01:18:45,389 if you don't study history, you are doomed to repeat it. 1702 01:18:45,489 --> 01:18:47,324 We're not covering Pizzagate enough 1703 01:18:47,424 --> 01:18:50,561 to expose the Satanism and the occult. 1704 01:18:50,661 --> 01:18:53,064 We have these strange allegations now 1705 01:18:53,164 --> 01:18:54,264 of "Pizzagate" and things like QAnon-- 1706 01:18:54,364 --> 01:18:56,400 the idea that thousands and thousands 1707 01:18:56,500 --> 01:18:59,104 and thousands of babies are missing, you know? 1708 01:18:59,204 --> 01:19:00,604 It's all sort of coming up again. 1709 01:19:00,704 --> 01:19:01,638 QAnon... 1710 01:19:01,739 --> 01:19:02,706 with its claim 1711 01:19:02,806 --> 01:19:05,176 that "Satan-worshiping pedophile elites" 1712 01:19:05,275 --> 01:19:06,610 are running our lives. 1713 01:19:06,710 --> 01:19:08,812 "Oh, boy. Here we go again." 1714 01:19:08,912 --> 01:19:10,447 I mean, that-- that's exactly what I thought. 1715 01:19:10,547 --> 01:19:12,616 "Oh, no, not again." 1716 01:19:12,716 --> 01:19:15,953 Man showed up at that pizza parlour with a gun 1717 01:19:16,054 --> 01:19:17,122 demanding to know more, 1718 01:19:17,222 --> 01:19:18,489 and now this has become 1719 01:19:18,589 --> 01:19:21,892 the centre of a national debate over fake news. 1720 01:19:21,992 --> 01:19:23,228 I came to realize 1721 01:19:23,360 --> 01:19:26,730 this story is one of the most relevant topics 1722 01:19:26,830 --> 01:19:29,299 that you could ever talk about in today's world-- 1723 01:19:29,399 --> 01:19:30,434 it's just not about 1724 01:19:30,534 --> 01:19:32,103 Satanic ritual abuse of children, 1725 01:19:32,203 --> 01:19:33,804 but this problem 1726 01:19:33,904 --> 01:19:35,639 of what people believe 1727 01:19:35,739 --> 01:19:39,676 when there's no real objective, professional evidence of it, 1728 01:19:39,777 --> 01:19:41,745 is an amazing thing to behold. 1729 01:19:41,845 --> 01:19:43,413 It's not going to go away. 1730 01:19:43,514 --> 01:19:44,615 I used to think it was. 1731 01:19:44,715 --> 01:19:45,783 I used to think, 1732 01:19:45,883 --> 01:19:47,018 "Well, all you have to do is debunk the stuff 1733 01:19:47,118 --> 01:19:48,219 in a rational way, 1734 01:19:48,318 --> 01:19:49,987 and I'll just be a good journalist, 1735 01:19:50,088 --> 01:19:51,488 and I'll do that," you know? 1736 01:19:51,588 --> 01:19:55,793 And, uh... it just happens again. 1737 01:19:55,893 --> 01:19:57,528 This has been kind of difficult for me, 1738 01:19:57,628 --> 01:19:59,197 to tell you the truth, 1739 01:19:59,296 --> 01:20:01,999 to see that none of that stuff really mattered. 1740 01:20:02,100 --> 01:20:03,433 None of what we did 1741 01:20:03,534 --> 01:20:05,536 really seems to have made much of a difference. 1742 01:20:08,438 --> 01:20:12,676 We had to deal with the "Bride of Satan". 1743 01:20:12,776 --> 01:20:15,679 All the time-- we had to deal with her. 1744 01:20:15,779 --> 01:20:19,184 And we had to live under the shadow of that book. 1745 01:20:19,284 --> 01:20:21,019 We had to live under the shadow of her. 1746 01:20:23,188 --> 01:20:25,856 Once they married, you know... 1747 01:20:25,956 --> 01:20:28,293 we couldn't get close to him anymore. 1748 01:20:28,392 --> 01:20:29,893 It was really hard, 1749 01:20:29,993 --> 01:20:32,263 and I think that's why I really made an effort-- 1750 01:20:32,362 --> 01:20:33,664 "I'm gonna call you every Sunday." 1751 01:20:33,764 --> 01:20:36,134 I really, really pushed for that. 1752 01:20:36,234 --> 01:20:37,401 During that time, 1753 01:20:37,501 --> 01:20:40,437 the phone calls started changing a lot. 1754 01:20:41,705 --> 01:20:45,243 He was kind of pulling away from her... 1755 01:20:45,342 --> 01:20:47,078 and I think 1756 01:20:47,178 --> 01:20:50,248 there was things coming up, like, different things 1757 01:20:50,347 --> 01:20:52,482 that made me realize... 1758 01:20:53,517 --> 01:20:56,520 ...that, you know, that he was coming around. 1759 01:20:56,620 --> 01:20:59,324 You know, he had said, you know, 1760 01:20:59,423 --> 01:21:01,525 "What if it weren't true?" 1761 01:21:04,628 --> 01:21:06,530 I was at work. 1762 01:21:06,630 --> 01:21:08,565 My sister, Tertia, came up to my office 1763 01:21:08,665 --> 01:21:11,102 and she goes, "Larry's dead." 1764 01:21:12,369 --> 01:21:14,205 And I was in shock. I was just, like... 1765 01:21:14,305 --> 01:21:15,539 I said, "What happened?" 1766 01:21:15,639 --> 01:21:17,641 She said, "He got up, went to the bathroom, 1767 01:21:17,741 --> 01:21:19,776 and fell." 1768 01:21:19,877 --> 01:21:22,479 Apparently, the ambulance took a long time to get there, 1769 01:21:22,579 --> 01:21:23,747 but he was dead anyways. 1770 01:21:23,847 --> 01:21:26,550 He had a massive heart attack, they said. 1771 01:21:28,552 --> 01:21:30,188 Michelle discovered 1772 01:21:30,288 --> 01:21:35,459 that he'd kept all his pictures from his marriage to Marylyn. 1773 01:21:36,660 --> 01:21:39,297 Michelle was really upset about that one, 1774 01:21:39,396 --> 01:21:43,467 and she said that, "He was not the man I thought I married." 1775 01:21:45,402 --> 01:21:46,737 I went to the funeral 1776 01:21:46,837 --> 01:21:48,373 and I connected with Michelle 1777 01:21:48,472 --> 01:21:50,674 and I stayed with her for a few days, 1778 01:21:50,774 --> 01:21:52,943 and then, when I was leaving, 1779 01:21:53,044 --> 01:21:56,480 this little deer came around the side of the house, 1780 01:21:56,580 --> 01:21:58,383 and it just stood there and looked at me, 1781 01:21:58,482 --> 01:21:59,750 and it was weird. 1782 01:21:59,850 --> 01:22:01,919 I felt like it had something to do with Larry, 1783 01:22:02,020 --> 01:22:03,453 like-- ah, it's breaking me up right now-- 1784 01:22:03,553 --> 01:22:05,522 and, um... 1785 01:22:05,622 --> 01:22:07,591 I don't know, I just felt like it was Larry, 1786 01:22:07,691 --> 01:22:10,228 you know, standing there. 1787 01:22:11,428 --> 01:22:15,400 I felt like he was asking me to look out for Michelle... 1788 01:22:15,499 --> 01:22:16,967 so I did. 1789 01:22:17,068 --> 01:22:20,104 I said that to myself, that I would look out for her, 1790 01:22:20,204 --> 01:22:22,307 for him, 1791 01:22:22,407 --> 01:22:24,409 and I've kept that promise. 1792 01:22:31,615 --> 01:22:33,684 She's a good person. 1793 01:22:33,784 --> 01:22:36,820 She had her life ruined, 1794 01:22:36,920 --> 01:22:40,391 first, by whatever experience she did go through-- 1795 01:22:40,490 --> 01:22:43,227 I am convinced 1796 01:22:43,328 --> 01:22:46,264 it's not mismemory or false memory, 1797 01:22:46,364 --> 01:22:49,400 and then, the book, you know? 1798 01:22:49,499 --> 01:22:50,435 It's ruined her life. 1799 01:22:50,534 --> 01:22:52,036 She hates the book, 1800 01:22:52,136 --> 01:22:55,472 because when people see her, that's all they see. 1801 01:22:55,572 --> 01:22:58,076 And if anybody should have blame, 1802 01:22:58,176 --> 01:22:59,776 as much as I loved Larry, 1803 01:22:59,876 --> 01:23:01,578 and I'm not even big on men, 1804 01:23:01,678 --> 01:23:05,316 but I loved Larry, and he... 1805 01:23:05,416 --> 01:23:10,754 I think, was responsible for the book. 1806 01:23:12,723 --> 01:23:14,624 I believe in the pain 1807 01:23:14,725 --> 01:23:16,427 that they experienced as a child, 1808 01:23:16,526 --> 01:23:19,330 the details of what they present. 1809 01:23:19,430 --> 01:23:20,831 I'm not there to believe or not believe. 1810 01:23:20,931 --> 01:23:22,766 I'm there to try and understand 1811 01:23:22,866 --> 01:23:25,936 what they're trying to tell me of an experience, 1812 01:23:26,037 --> 01:23:28,538 and those experiences are not simple to separate 1813 01:23:28,638 --> 01:23:31,009 from whether that has actually happened to them 1814 01:23:31,109 --> 01:23:32,943 or that is their way of trying to express 1815 01:23:33,044 --> 01:23:34,845 a profound pain that they've experienced 1816 01:23:34,945 --> 01:23:37,248 beyond their body, in their very heart, 1817 01:23:37,348 --> 01:23:38,982 in their very soul. 1818 01:23:44,489 --> 01:23:46,324 I always hung on 1819 01:23:46,424 --> 01:23:50,028 to that dad that I grew up with... 1820 01:23:50,128 --> 01:23:52,529 and I think that's what made it hurt so much, 1821 01:23:52,629 --> 01:23:53,630 is that you hang on to it. 1822 01:23:53,730 --> 01:23:55,932 You really love. 1823 01:23:58,436 --> 01:24:01,172 But he did take her out of my life, 1824 01:24:01,272 --> 01:24:05,076 and that was the only good thing about his death. 1825 01:24:05,176 --> 01:24:07,378 You know? I-I, um... 1826 01:24:07,478 --> 01:24:08,712 It was... 1827 01:24:08,812 --> 01:24:10,381 really good to have her gone. 1828 01:24:10,481 --> 01:24:12,083 It was, um... 1829 01:24:12,183 --> 01:24:14,452 I think that's when I started to feel 1830 01:24:14,551 --> 01:24:18,189 that that whole chapter was over. 1831 01:24:18,289 --> 01:24:19,323 It wasn't one chapter. 1832 01:24:19,424 --> 01:24:22,093 It was a book. Literally. 1833 01:24:23,827 --> 01:24:27,398 It was more than any type of an affair. 1834 01:24:27,498 --> 01:24:28,899 Far more than that. 1835 01:24:28,999 --> 01:24:31,269 They were both obsessed with each other... 1836 01:24:32,803 --> 01:24:36,474 ...and she was in love with my husband. 1837 01:24:36,573 --> 01:24:42,080 And maybe she saw our happiness and she wanted it for herself. 1838 01:24:42,180 --> 01:24:44,348 But you see, you can't get that for yourself, 1839 01:24:44,449 --> 01:24:48,252 because it doesn't belong to, and it never will be yours, 1840 01:24:48,352 --> 01:24:52,090 because you-- if you try to take somebody else's happiness away, 1841 01:24:52,190 --> 01:24:54,791 everybody's going to be unhappy all the way around, 1842 01:24:54,891 --> 01:24:58,162 because it's not yours to be had. 1843 01:24:59,297 --> 01:25:03,534 You make your own Heaven or Hell right here on this Earth. 1844 01:25:08,004 --> 01:25:10,740 I think she's living in hell... 1845 01:25:11,808 --> 01:25:16,013 ...because the story has haunted my family for years. 1846 01:25:16,114 --> 01:25:18,615 We could pretend that we're a family, 1847 01:25:18,715 --> 01:25:21,452 but there's always that feeling of, 1848 01:25:21,552 --> 01:25:23,387 "How could you do the damage that you did 1849 01:25:23,488 --> 01:25:25,889 by telling a story that wasn't true?" 1850 01:25:27,592 --> 01:25:29,293 If she came along and said to us, 1851 01:25:29,393 --> 01:25:32,196 "Hey, I made it all up. I'm sorry," you know? 1852 01:25:32,296 --> 01:25:34,865 Then we would understand, but she hasn't. 1853 01:25:34,965 --> 01:25:36,467 She's never apologized. 1854 01:25:36,567 --> 01:25:38,336 She's never, you know... 1855 01:25:38,436 --> 01:25:39,769 Nothing. 1856 01:25:41,272 --> 01:25:43,274 Whether she made it up 1857 01:25:43,374 --> 01:25:47,078 or whether Larry and her made it up together, 1858 01:25:47,178 --> 01:25:49,614 I don't know... 1859 01:25:49,713 --> 01:25:51,282 but she was able to do it. 1860 01:25:51,382 --> 01:25:52,649 You know, she had a motive. 1861 01:25:52,749 --> 01:25:53,917 Her motive was 1862 01:25:54,018 --> 01:25:57,121 that she wanted Larry as her husband. 141967

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