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I want to tell you
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about a book that kept me awakefor two nights this week
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as I read it.
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It's one of thoseyou-can't-put-down books.
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It was a journey of horror,
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of sadism, and perversion.
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A storyof brutality and death.
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It is the story of a womanwho wrestled with the Devil...
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and won.
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Joining me now
from Victoria is Michelle Smith,
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a one-time victim of abuse
by a Satanic cult,
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and Dr. Lawrence Pazder,
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the psychiatrist
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who helped her come to terms
with that nightmare.
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They are co-authors of the book
Michelle Remembers.
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The book
is called Michelle Remembers.
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The authors are Michelle Smith
and Lawrence Pazder, M.D.,
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who, acting as a psychiatrist,
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extracted from her
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bizarre childhood memories
of Satan...
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which have shocked many people.
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Michelle Smith
created a sensation
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with her story of abuse
at the hands of a Satanic cult.
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This was
the first publicized account
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of such rituals.
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Now, you've mentioned evidence
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which proves
some of the early things
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you feel
that happened to her
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as a small child
in Victoria, B.C..
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I have to say
that the evidence is clear
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that this came
from an experience
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that Michelle had.
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Michelle, can I ask you
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what it was that,
after four years of therapy
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and this deep state
of consciousness,
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that came out of your mind?
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Uh, basically,
what I remembered
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was a 14-month period of my life
at age five,
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where I was given
to a group of people,
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whom, at first, I wasn't aware
of what they were doing
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other than, to a child,
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they were adults doing things
I couldn't understand,
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and it frightened me.
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They would put me in cages,
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they would
sacrifice animals,
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they would have
a lot of candles,
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and chanting,
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and bizarre things
I had never seen.
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Eating feces, and orgies,
and-- and, um...
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dismembering fetuses--
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these were things
that you experienced?
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That's right.
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Now, when you say
something like that,
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that's alarming-- I mean,
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people get terrified
by this sort of thing.
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I mean,
are they rightfully terrified?
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I think that, today,
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that it's very, very wise
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to take a good, hard look
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at where
you place your children,
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into whose care
you place your child.
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I have been interested
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in the "Satanic Panic"
for years--
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I researched it for years...
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...and once I read
Michelle Remembers,
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I could not
get it out of my head.
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I did a five-part series
on Michelle Remembers.
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To me,
it was important
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to present a discussion
about it to people,
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because this book
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has helped shape the world
we now live in,
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and whose contents we have
to have some understanding of
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if we're going to know
how we got here, so...
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I think
of Michelle Remembers
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as the "Patient Zero"
of the Satanic Panic.
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The book begins
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when Michelle is in the hospital
following a miscarriage,
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and Dr. Pazder comes--
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because he, in the past,
has worked as her therapist--
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and she tells him
about a dream
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where there's an itchy spot
on her hand.
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She scratches it,
and then...
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countless tiny spiders
come surging forth,
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and she's extremely upset
by this dream,
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and so he decides,
based on this,
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that it's time for them
to return to therapy.
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What went on in your childhood
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that you discovered?
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What, basically,I began to remember
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was a series of eventsthat stretched out
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over about a 14-month periodin my life.
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Was thisthrough hypnosis, Doctor, or--?
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Actually, it's beyond hypnosis.
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It's a methodthat Michelle had devised
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to go deepinto her depths.
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How hadyou devised this technique
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yourself, Michelle?
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It just came about
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in the atmosphereof Dr. Pazder saying to me,
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"Just go where you have to go.I'll be there with you."
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I could then shut my eyes,
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and through breathingvery deeply,
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go way down inside.
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It felt very much like fallingover backwards into the dark...
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and that's whereI began to find the memories.
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Side "A"--November 1976.
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The first thing I remembered
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was a nightwhen a group of people
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were gathered to do...
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I didn't know what.
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They were doing dances
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that were not like the dancesI was used to.
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They had the wallsdraped in black.
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They had set up candles.
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My mother was present...
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but not in the ceremony,
not in the ritual,
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she wasn't involved in that.
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Her position seemed to be
one of giving me to this group.
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They were dedicated
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to doing a lot of seriously...
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frightening kind of things,
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and they sacrificed animals,
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and they used fetuses of babiesin their ceremonies.
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No! No! No!
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No!
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Incredible story.
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Tell me about Michelle
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and what, in fact,
you believe
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happened to her
as a small child.
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Well, I have to back up
a little bit.
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I knew Michelle very well
through four years of therapy,
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uh, intensive therapy,
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and there was no evidence
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of any of this kind
of material present,
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but I knew her personality
and everything.
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When she came to me a year after
it had been discontinued,
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and went into a very deep level
of consciousness
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and began to relive,
essentially--
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to see, to hear, to feel,
and to tell me in detail--
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these events,
for 14 months,
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of what happened to her
as a child,
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it was very difficult
for me to...
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decide where
it was coming from.
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Victoria
was very small in the 1950s.
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I mean,
the population was 70,000--
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that's it.
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It was safe.
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It was quiet.
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Tertia's the oldest,
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and then Michelle
is the middle child,
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and I came along
five years later.
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Tertia was pretty.
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Michelle
was kind of a fuddy-duddy.
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I was gorgeous.
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No, I'm just joking!
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But Michelle and I were
always getting into trouble.
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I think that's because we had
such an up-and-down childhood.
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My mom,
she didn't have an easy life,
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raising three girls
on her own.
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I mean, Dad was in and out.
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You know, he was an alcoholic,
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and he had
a gambling problem, so...
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When you have a husband
that's an alcoholic,
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you don't have friends.
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You just don't.
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So Mom spent a very lonely life.
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My sisters talk about it now,
and it's-- they always say,
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"Well, she always--
she would drink,"
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and I said...
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"You know,
if I had three young girls,
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and I sat down in the evening
and had a cold beer,"
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you know, "I wouldn't classify
that as drinking," you know?
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She just, she had
a lot on her plate.
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We moved eight or nine times
in ten years
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because of Dad.
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Dad was quite violent.
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And it always happened
Easter, Christmas, Thanksgiving.
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We would all end up
at a hotel somewhere
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because the police
would have to come and take us,
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because Dad would
start to...
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terrorize
and destroy the house,
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and beat my mom up.
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That was my childhood. Right?
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You know, I just assumed
that's what everybody did--
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got drunk
and had fights.
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I don't know.
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Larry liked the limelight.
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You know,
everybody liked him
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and he liked being liked...
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and Michelle wasn't like that.
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Michelle is like a Puritan,
you know?
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No off-colour jokes, and...
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not really any swearing,
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and no alcohol.
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But Michelle is
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00:11:03,061 --> 00:11:03,994
a caring,
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00:11:04,095 --> 00:11:05,629
loving,
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00:11:05,729 --> 00:11:07,798
gentle person
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00:11:07,898 --> 00:11:10,234
who cares about the whole world.
200
00:11:10,334 --> 00:11:15,272
I worked with them
for about a year and a half,
201
00:11:15,372 --> 00:11:17,941
and I only did it
because I love typing.
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00:11:19,443 --> 00:11:22,013
Larry had recorded everything
that Michelle said
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in her reliving process.
204
00:11:32,489 --> 00:11:34,159
He took his reel-to-reels,
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00:11:34,258 --> 00:11:36,293
put it all on onto cassettes,
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00:11:36,393 --> 00:11:38,462
and I went through
the whole 14 months
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from the beginning
to the end,
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00:11:39,897 --> 00:11:43,200
and filled in
as much missing words and sounds
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00:11:43,300 --> 00:11:44,802
as I could.
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And so, what Larry did
was he clipped out, you know,
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00:11:50,541 --> 00:11:52,776
excerpts of the typing,
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00:11:52,876 --> 00:11:54,511
and he would put that,
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00:11:54,611 --> 00:11:56,847
and then put
his own writing underneath it,
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00:11:56,947 --> 00:11:59,117
and then he'd give it to me,
and I'd type it all and--
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00:11:59,216 --> 00:12:01,119
and send it off
to the publisher.
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00:12:25,843 --> 00:12:28,146
To be 100% honest with you,
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00:12:28,245 --> 00:12:31,482
I listened to all the tapes
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00:12:31,582 --> 00:12:35,352
and I believe that something
happened to Michelle.
219
00:12:35,452 --> 00:12:37,755
There isn't much doubt
in my mind.
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00:12:37,855 --> 00:12:41,759
Something definitely
happened to her, and...
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00:12:41,859 --> 00:12:44,528
I do believe
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00:12:44,628 --> 00:12:47,198
it was a group of Satanists,
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00:12:47,297 --> 00:12:50,934
and they had her
for those 14 months.
224
00:13:07,284 --> 00:13:08,819
As they get deeper
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00:13:08,919 --> 00:13:13,690
into these memories
of Satanic ritual abuse...
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00:13:13,791 --> 00:13:16,727
Michelle learns
that her mother
227
00:13:16,827 --> 00:13:19,730
is not merely dabbling
in this social scene.
228
00:13:19,830 --> 00:13:22,167
She gave Michelle
to the Satanists
229
00:13:22,267 --> 00:13:24,601
because she is a Satanist.
230
00:13:24,701 --> 00:13:26,436
She belongs to these people.
231
00:13:42,187 --> 00:13:43,687
And essentially,
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00:13:43,787 --> 00:13:46,291
the bulk
of Michelle Remembers
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is long descriptions
234
00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:53,997
of a young child
being mercilessly tortured.
235
00:14:12,783 --> 00:14:14,451
Dr. Pazder and Michelle
236
00:14:14,551 --> 00:14:16,687
were spending
more and more time together.
237
00:14:16,787 --> 00:14:20,557
The sessions are getting
up to six hours long.
238
00:14:20,657 --> 00:14:22,593
It's becoming
both of their worlds,
239
00:14:22,693 --> 00:14:24,595
and yet, surprisingly,
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00:14:24,695 --> 00:14:28,966
each of them is going home
to a spouse each night--
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00:14:29,067 --> 00:14:30,634
Michelle to her husband, Doug,
242
00:14:30,734 --> 00:14:33,971
and Dr. Pazder
to his wife, Marylyn.
243
00:14:38,408 --> 00:14:39,977
I met Larry
at Michelle's wedding
244
00:14:40,078 --> 00:14:43,314
when she was getting married
to Doug Smith.
245
00:14:43,413 --> 00:14:44,681
She loved Doug.
246
00:14:44,781 --> 00:14:46,683
They were happy, you know?
247
00:14:46,783 --> 00:14:49,220
He was a kind, kind person.
248
00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:50,854
Michelle had a huge imagination.
249
00:14:50,954 --> 00:14:53,724
She always created things--
she was very creative.
250
00:14:53,824 --> 00:14:56,261
So, she had made
her wedding dress
251
00:14:56,361 --> 00:14:59,563
and she had made
her husband's suit.
252
00:14:59,663 --> 00:15:01,531
But the wedding--
I remember Larry coming in,
253
00:15:01,632 --> 00:15:04,035
and, uh,
I thought it was odd...
254
00:15:04,135 --> 00:15:06,403
that a psychiatrist
255
00:15:06,503 --> 00:15:08,739
would show up at a wedding
of-of-- of a patient,
256
00:15:08,839 --> 00:15:10,974
but there must have been
a connection
257
00:15:11,075 --> 00:15:12,542
between Michelle and him.
258
00:15:19,917 --> 00:15:22,753
Well,
I was married to Larry Pazder.
259
00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:27,058
We met when I was 13
and he was 17,
260
00:15:27,158 --> 00:15:29,626
and we married in 1961,
261
00:15:29,726 --> 00:15:32,729
when he graduated
from medicine
262
00:15:32,829 --> 00:15:34,798
and I had graduated
from nursing.
263
00:15:37,201 --> 00:15:38,969
Well, he was always lots of fun,
264
00:15:39,070 --> 00:15:42,572
and always very happy
and cheerful,
265
00:15:42,673 --> 00:15:44,242
and very charming.
266
00:15:44,342 --> 00:15:45,642
My mom said,
267
00:15:45,742 --> 00:15:48,046
"he could charm the birds
right out of the trees,"
268
00:15:48,146 --> 00:15:51,115
and he collected friends
like a dog collected fleas.
269
00:15:52,582 --> 00:15:54,685
My dad was really religious
270
00:15:54,785 --> 00:15:57,821
and we went to church
every Sunday.
271
00:15:59,290 --> 00:16:01,359
He was very much, like,
272
00:16:01,458 --> 00:16:04,594
"The Catholic Church
is the only church,"
273
00:16:04,695 --> 00:16:06,797
but with my dad, like...
274
00:16:06,897 --> 00:16:10,500
I was his princess, basically--
"Daddy's little girl".
275
00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:13,271
So I was always really, really
tight with my dad.
276
00:16:13,371 --> 00:16:15,505
Like, I knew
he was a psychiatrist,
277
00:16:15,605 --> 00:16:17,041
and I think
278
00:16:17,141 --> 00:16:19,410
that's one of the reasons why
I really looked up to him
279
00:16:19,509 --> 00:16:21,079
because, like, a psychiatrist
was sort of seen
280
00:16:21,179 --> 00:16:23,081
as somebody that was
kind of all-knowing
281
00:16:23,181 --> 00:16:25,983
and expert in human behaviour
kind of thing.
282
00:16:26,084 --> 00:16:28,152
You're a conventional
medical psychiatrist.
283
00:16:28,252 --> 00:16:29,354
Absolutely.
284
00:16:29,454 --> 00:16:32,556
How would you describe
what was done...
285
00:16:32,656 --> 00:16:35,159
mentally and physically?
286
00:16:35,259 --> 00:16:37,594
It was a very carefully
organized assault on Michelle,
287
00:16:37,694 --> 00:16:39,963
on a physical, emotional,
intellectual,
288
00:16:40,064 --> 00:16:41,932
and finally,
on a spiritual level.
289
00:16:42,033 --> 00:16:43,134
Very organized.
290
00:16:43,234 --> 00:16:44,768
-Very sophisticated.
-Who were these people?
291
00:16:44,868 --> 00:16:46,737
Well,
they're a secret organization.
292
00:16:46,837 --> 00:16:47,938
They're a secret society.
293
00:16:48,039 --> 00:16:50,141
Uh, a secret society
does not reveal
294
00:16:50,241 --> 00:16:53,510
the identity of the people
or the ways of their practices.
295
00:16:53,610 --> 00:16:56,114
I was familiar with this type
of society firsthand
296
00:16:56,214 --> 00:16:57,281
in Africa--
297
00:16:57,382 --> 00:16:58,749
practicing general medicine
there--
298
00:16:58,849 --> 00:17:01,185
and if one of the members
of that society
299
00:17:01,285 --> 00:17:02,487
revealed who he was,
300
00:17:02,619 --> 00:17:03,787
he was killed instantly.
301
00:17:08,426 --> 00:17:11,162
Larry had the camera
when we were in Nigeria--
302
00:17:11,262 --> 00:17:13,164
for taking 16-millimetre.
303
00:17:14,598 --> 00:17:15,899
He liked to record things
304
00:17:15,999 --> 00:17:18,902
and he had all the latest
photographic equipment,
305
00:17:19,003 --> 00:17:21,105
recording equipment--
everything like that.
306
00:17:21,205 --> 00:17:22,539
He loved doing that.
307
00:17:22,639 --> 00:17:23,707
Larry was a character,
308
00:17:23,807 --> 00:17:25,809
and he told
these stories of Africa.
309
00:17:28,179 --> 00:17:31,082
And he had some run-ins
with nuns down there.
310
00:17:31,182 --> 00:17:33,484
Nuns kept telling him
that he was evil,
311
00:17:33,583 --> 00:17:36,521
and he was full of voodoo,
and he should leave.
312
00:17:39,223 --> 00:17:41,059
There were
strange things there.
313
00:17:41,159 --> 00:17:43,261
It was
a completely different culture.
314
00:17:43,361 --> 00:17:45,263
Very, very different.
315
00:17:47,031 --> 00:17:53,071
He did take some pictures
of this group dancing around...
316
00:17:53,171 --> 00:17:57,141
and it was like as if
they were in a possession state.
317
00:17:59,077 --> 00:18:01,878
He went in there
and took those pictures
318
00:18:01,978 --> 00:18:05,183
of two big wooden masks...
319
00:18:05,283 --> 00:18:07,984
and he really liked
that sort of thing.
320
00:18:08,919 --> 00:18:11,621
He seemed to be
very fascinated with it
321
00:18:11,721 --> 00:18:14,591
and just kind of drawn to that.
322
00:18:17,994 --> 00:18:19,729
Well, I had worked in Africa
323
00:18:19,830 --> 00:18:22,366
and done a lot of workin transcultural psychiatry,
324
00:18:22,467 --> 00:18:24,000
so I was familiar with cults,
325
00:18:24,102 --> 00:18:26,937
and the degree ofsophisticationand organization
326
00:18:27,038 --> 00:18:29,739
that these peoplewere using on Michelle
327
00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:32,076
told me that they werea serious cult, indeed.
328
00:18:32,176 --> 00:18:33,478
But they believein the other God--
329
00:18:33,578 --> 00:18:34,412
-the Devil, right?-The Devil.
330
00:18:34,512 --> 00:18:35,912
They worship the Devil
331
00:18:36,013 --> 00:18:38,216
to bring down anything goodthat they know about.
332
00:18:38,316 --> 00:18:40,784
How do they do this,Michelle, what rituals--?
333
00:18:40,884 --> 00:18:42,386
Does the Devil appear?Is that the idea?
334
00:18:42,487 --> 00:18:44,788
Well, that is oneof their intents, of course,
335
00:18:44,888 --> 00:18:47,158
is to summon a presence.
336
00:18:47,258 --> 00:18:48,459
And you quote
337
00:18:48,559 --> 00:18:49,793
that the Devil alwaystalks in rhyme?
338
00:18:49,893 --> 00:18:51,395
This is historically a fact
339
00:18:51,496 --> 00:18:52,796
that was brought out to us
340
00:18:52,896 --> 00:18:54,265
by the priestwho we had to call in
341
00:18:54,365 --> 00:18:55,866
to help us understandwhat we were experiencing.
342
00:18:55,966 --> 00:18:57,201
"But I'll be back--you wait and see.
343
00:18:57,301 --> 00:18:59,604
I'll be backto take the world for me."
344
00:18:59,703 --> 00:19:00,837
You heard this, Michelle?
345
00:19:00,937 --> 00:19:04,674
Yes. It was serious.
346
00:19:05,709 --> 00:19:07,345
Father Guy said
347
00:19:07,445 --> 00:19:10,047
that Michelle could never know
348
00:19:10,148 --> 00:19:12,682
the symbology...
349
00:19:12,782 --> 00:19:14,318
of what she was saying.
350
00:19:15,353 --> 00:19:17,687
Like, mostly, when Satan
comes out of the fire
351
00:19:17,787 --> 00:19:20,024
and he speaks in rhymes.
352
00:19:22,726 --> 00:19:24,895
Father Guy was the priest
353
00:19:24,995 --> 00:19:30,000
at the Catholic Church
that Larry and Michelle went to,
354
00:19:30,101 --> 00:19:32,869
and so he helped
Michelle to understand
355
00:19:32,969 --> 00:19:35,273
what she's seeing
and-- and what's happening
356
00:19:35,373 --> 00:19:37,375
in that reliving process.
357
00:19:38,775 --> 00:19:40,111
"Michelle is saved
358
00:19:40,211 --> 00:19:42,679
by the timely interventionof the Virgin Mary."
359
00:19:42,779 --> 00:19:45,249
What was that referring to?
360
00:19:45,349 --> 00:19:47,984
I was literally
being frightened to death.
361
00:19:48,085 --> 00:19:50,854
At that moment,
when I think I was dying,
362
00:19:50,954 --> 00:19:53,924
a very soft white light came
and enveloped me,
363
00:19:54,025 --> 00:19:56,460
much like the feeling of being
padded with cotton batting,
364
00:19:56,561 --> 00:19:58,728
and out of that, a woman came
and stood beside me,
365
00:19:58,828 --> 00:20:00,498
and took a hold of my hand,
366
00:20:00,598 --> 00:20:02,766
identified herself
as "Ma Mรจre",
367
00:20:02,866 --> 00:20:05,036
and basically told me
to hang on,
368
00:20:05,136 --> 00:20:07,438
to help me understand
the situation I was in,
369
00:20:07,538 --> 00:20:09,073
and how to get through it.
370
00:20:09,173 --> 00:20:10,141
-"Ma Mรจre"?-Ma Mรจre.
371
00:20:10,241 --> 00:20:12,443
-The Virgin Mary?
-That's right.
372
00:20:12,543 --> 00:20:13,644
Mother Mary--
373
00:20:13,743 --> 00:20:15,646
they referred to her
as "Ma Mรจre"--
374
00:20:15,745 --> 00:20:17,315
visited Michelle
375
00:20:17,415 --> 00:20:19,749
and talked to her in French.
376
00:20:19,849 --> 00:20:23,321
She helped
to keep her going.
377
00:20:24,388 --> 00:20:26,023
Father Guy...
378
00:20:26,123 --> 00:20:29,227
felt concerned about it enough
379
00:20:29,327 --> 00:20:31,962
that he took Larry and Michelle
over to his bishop,
380
00:20:32,063 --> 00:20:36,500
which was Bishop Remi De Roo
at the time, and...
381
00:20:36,601 --> 00:20:39,637
Bishop Remi De Roo decided
382
00:20:39,736 --> 00:20:42,273
that her memories
had enough import
383
00:20:42,373 --> 00:20:45,676
that they needed to go to Rome
and tell the Pope this...
384
00:20:45,775 --> 00:20:48,179
and so they did!
385
00:20:52,882 --> 00:20:56,721
Larry and Michelle
and Bishop Remi De Roo
386
00:20:56,853 --> 00:20:58,822
went there,
387
00:20:58,922 --> 00:21:01,325
and they did
get to see the Pope...
388
00:21:02,460 --> 00:21:06,896
...and they did tell him
Michelle's memories.
389
00:21:08,266 --> 00:21:10,134
It soundslike Dante's Inferno--
390
00:21:10,234 --> 00:21:11,636
hundreds of mutilated corpses.
391
00:21:11,736 --> 00:21:13,304
-Now, you saw this?-Mm-hmm.
392
00:21:13,404 --> 00:21:15,072
Now, you've placed thisin the hands
393
00:21:15,172 --> 00:21:16,340
-of the Catholic Church?-That's right.
394
00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:18,009
The entire tapeswere transcribed
395
00:21:18,109 --> 00:21:19,410
with a great dealof time and effort.
396
00:21:19,510 --> 00:21:21,078
There's somemillion and a half words,
397
00:21:21,178 --> 00:21:22,747
and these are presentlyin the hands of the Church
398
00:21:22,846 --> 00:21:23,880
for their study.
399
00:21:23,980 --> 00:21:25,383
And so, the Vatican
400
00:21:25,483 --> 00:21:26,651
still has some pronouncementsto make upon this?
401
00:21:26,751 --> 00:21:28,119
-Very much so.-Yes.
402
00:21:28,219 --> 00:21:29,453
...And they'retaking it very seriously.
403
00:21:46,836 --> 00:21:49,806
It was October, in 1980...
404
00:21:49,906 --> 00:21:51,442
as soon as the book came out,
405
00:21:51,542 --> 00:21:55,146
Larry and Michelle started
this big publicity tour.
406
00:21:56,213 --> 00:21:58,049
She was traveling
all over the place
407
00:21:58,149 --> 00:22:00,184
for this whole book tour.
408
00:22:00,284 --> 00:22:01,619
We didn't think
it would really get
409
00:22:01,719 --> 00:22:02,753
as-- as big as it did,
410
00:22:02,886 --> 00:22:04,155
but then it just--
411
00:22:04,255 --> 00:22:06,990
I don't know how it did,
it just blew up.
412
00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:12,163
I had a ton of articles
from all the papers
413
00:22:12,263 --> 00:22:14,165
and everywhere that they went.
414
00:22:15,499 --> 00:22:17,401
Michelle and Larry
were famous.
415
00:22:17,501 --> 00:22:19,570
They were famous.
Everybody was talking about it.
416
00:22:19,670 --> 00:22:23,140
I mean, in the newspapers
in San Francisco and Houston.
417
00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:25,975
She was in Seattle, Dallas,
and New York.
418
00:22:26,077 --> 00:22:27,645
She was everywhere.
419
00:22:27,745 --> 00:22:31,749
I mean, they just went
right across the whole country,
420
00:22:31,848 --> 00:22:33,883
and when they were
on the book tours,
421
00:22:33,983 --> 00:22:35,786
they stayed in
all these really fancy hotels.
422
00:22:35,885 --> 00:22:37,755
They had limousines.
423
00:22:37,854 --> 00:22:40,091
And I lived in San Francisco
424
00:22:40,191 --> 00:22:42,126
and they came down
on one of her many book tours,
425
00:22:42,226 --> 00:22:45,262
and I mean, we had fun,
we had some wonderful dinners...
426
00:22:46,597 --> 00:22:48,932
...and they wined and dined
whoever they were with.
427
00:22:50,034 --> 00:22:54,538
I know they got $245,000 U.S.
advance for the book.
428
00:22:55,539 --> 00:22:57,308
And I know
it was translated
429
00:22:57,408 --> 00:23:01,045
into a bunch of languages
other than just English,
430
00:23:01,145 --> 00:23:04,014
so I know the book
must've sold a lot of copies.
431
00:23:04,115 --> 00:23:05,683
The book's already
a big bestseller!
432
00:23:05,783 --> 00:23:07,385
Who wrote it?
You wrote it?
433
00:23:07,485 --> 00:23:09,353
-We wrote it together.
-We wrote it together.
434
00:23:09,453 --> 00:23:11,789
But at that time,
I had to have surgery,
435
00:23:11,888 --> 00:23:14,392
and so I had
just come out of surgery,
436
00:23:14,492 --> 00:23:16,594
and I was lying there
and I was really groggy,
437
00:23:16,694 --> 00:23:19,263
and I looked up at the TV,
438
00:23:19,363 --> 00:23:21,065
and all of sudden,
there was my sister,
439
00:23:21,165 --> 00:23:22,666
and I was like,
"Oh, my God."
440
00:23:26,737 --> 00:23:28,372
I, Michelle Smith,
441
00:23:28,472 --> 00:23:30,508
was turned over by my motherat the age of five
442
00:23:30,608 --> 00:23:33,477
to a group ofpracticing Satanists...
443
00:23:33,577 --> 00:23:34,678
who, for the next year,
444
00:23:34,779 --> 00:23:36,347
held me captiveand abused me
445
00:23:36,447 --> 00:23:38,249
both mentallyand physically
446
00:23:38,349 --> 00:23:41,886
as part of a demonic ritualcalled the "Feast of theBeast".
447
00:23:41,985 --> 00:23:43,254
After my ordeal,
448
00:23:43,354 --> 00:23:46,123
I lived normally and happilyuntil 1976,
449
00:23:46,223 --> 00:23:48,058
when a strange sense of unease
450
00:23:48,159 --> 00:23:50,828
led me to seekpsychiatric help.
451
00:23:50,927 --> 00:23:53,631
All the terrifying memoriesthat were buried for so long
452
00:23:53,731 --> 00:23:55,099
began to surface
453
00:23:55,199 --> 00:23:57,835
and were recordedby my doctor, Lawrence Pazder,
454
00:23:57,934 --> 00:24:00,404
and Dr. Pazder and Ihave told my story
455
00:24:00,504 --> 00:24:02,106
in a bookcalled Michelle Remembers.
456
00:24:02,206 --> 00:24:05,142
At first, I thought
I was imagining it--
457
00:24:05,242 --> 00:24:06,710
I was hallucinating,
I thought I was, like,
458
00:24:06,811 --> 00:24:09,613
"Man, that morphine
must be really good."
459
00:24:09,713 --> 00:24:10,915
When you relive these things,
460
00:24:11,015 --> 00:24:13,684
was this just in your head,
the reliving?
461
00:24:13,784 --> 00:24:14,919
No, this took place--
462
00:24:15,019 --> 00:24:16,420
Oh, the reliving itself?
463
00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:18,722
Yes. This, took--
This was in my head.
464
00:24:18,823 --> 00:24:20,825
It was just too strange...
465
00:24:20,925 --> 00:24:24,261
and she told the whole story.
466
00:24:24,361 --> 00:24:26,197
So who's the person that was
turned over to a Satanic cult
467
00:24:26,297 --> 00:24:27,465
and had written a book?
468
00:24:27,565 --> 00:24:28,666
The votes are all in--
469
00:24:28,766 --> 00:24:30,267
now, we're gonna find out
which of these ladies,
470
00:24:30,367 --> 00:24:32,336
in fact, did survive
this, uh, demonic, uh, uh...
471
00:24:32,436 --> 00:24:34,205
possession, and we're gonna--
who better to pick her out
472
00:24:34,305 --> 00:24:37,174
than the co-author of her book,
Dr. Lawrence Pazder?
473
00:24:37,274 --> 00:24:38,676
Doctor, come down
and pick out Michelle,
474
00:24:38,776 --> 00:24:39,976
if you would, please.
475
00:24:44,981 --> 00:24:47,017
And of course, she stood up,
476
00:24:47,117 --> 00:24:48,919
and I was like,
"I can't believe this."
477
00:24:51,388 --> 00:24:52,623
I think I called her
and I said,
478
00:24:52,723 --> 00:24:56,861
"I can't believe I just saw you
on TV."
479
00:24:56,961 --> 00:24:58,128
Can you squeeze in there?
480
00:24:58,229 --> 00:24:59,129
-Are you comfortable?
-Yes, indeed.
481
00:24:59,230 --> 00:25:00,664
Um, Doctor, before we go on,
482
00:25:00,764 --> 00:25:03,133
I'd like to ask, is there
any misinformation that emerged
483
00:25:03,234 --> 00:25:05,436
from this particular, uh, spot
that you'd like to clear up?
484
00:25:05,536 --> 00:25:06,804
Well, one of
the important things
485
00:25:06,904 --> 00:25:08,038
is the, uh, journey
to the Vatican
486
00:25:08,138 --> 00:25:09,406
was to bring the information
487
00:25:09,507 --> 00:25:11,642
Michelle had seen
some special presences--
488
00:25:11,742 --> 00:25:13,611
Ma Mรจre, who is thought
to be the mother of God.
489
00:25:13,711 --> 00:25:15,813
The book came out in 1980,
490
00:25:15,913 --> 00:25:18,349
and I heard about it
almost immediately
491
00:25:18,449 --> 00:25:20,651
because I was
the first Wiccan priest
492
00:25:20,751 --> 00:25:22,219
in law enforcement.
493
00:25:23,854 --> 00:25:26,624
It was
a very, very popular book--
494
00:25:26,724 --> 00:25:28,058
it still is, in some circles--
495
00:25:28,158 --> 00:25:30,528
and she's
all over North America
496
00:25:30,628 --> 00:25:32,796
in years following
the publishing of that book--
497
00:25:32,897 --> 00:25:34,298
in front of police audiences,
498
00:25:34,398 --> 00:25:35,766
in front of church audiences,
499
00:25:35,866 --> 00:25:37,568
in front of
community audiences...
500
00:25:37,668 --> 00:25:40,504
and they're both
being seen as an expert.
501
00:25:40,604 --> 00:25:42,973
I knewthat it needed to be shared.
502
00:25:43,073 --> 00:25:47,111
It's the average person that,
with this kind of information,
503
00:25:47,211 --> 00:25:49,346
maybe we can make
some wiser decisions
504
00:25:49,446 --> 00:25:51,081
about the kinds of things
that go on.
505
00:25:51,181 --> 00:25:53,217
Maybe we won't get
so easily pulled into cults.
506
00:25:53,317 --> 00:25:54,652
She was everywhere.
507
00:25:54,752 --> 00:25:57,254
They were plugging everything.
508
00:25:58,289 --> 00:26:01,191
That's what they did for...
at least two years.
509
00:26:03,227 --> 00:26:06,430
And he was all of a sudden
being asked to come and talk
510
00:26:06,530 --> 00:26:10,568
because, apparently,
now he was the guru of...
511
00:26:10,668 --> 00:26:14,238
being able to decipher
when a child has been abused.
512
00:26:15,573 --> 00:26:17,708
So that's when they started
the speaking tours
513
00:26:17,808 --> 00:26:20,210
for the psychiatric conventions.
514
00:26:21,111 --> 00:26:23,280
In 1981,
515
00:26:23,380 --> 00:26:25,516
there was an American
Psychiatric Association
516
00:26:25,616 --> 00:26:27,052
annual meeting,
517
00:26:27,151 --> 00:26:29,153
and Pazder talked about
518
00:26:29,253 --> 00:26:31,355
the content
of Michelle Remembers,
519
00:26:31,455 --> 00:26:34,858
and he started generalizing
that there was this phenomenon,
520
00:26:34,959 --> 00:26:37,461
you know, beyond
that particular story--
521
00:26:37,561 --> 00:26:40,397
that there was a phenomenon
called "Satanic ritual abuse."
522
00:26:45,102 --> 00:26:46,937
"Satanic ritual abuse"
523
00:26:47,038 --> 00:26:49,873
was a theory
that people took as a fact,
524
00:26:49,974 --> 00:26:51,442
that there's
a Satanic conspiracy
525
00:26:51,542 --> 00:26:55,713
and there are children
who are kidnapped or stolen,
526
00:26:55,813 --> 00:26:57,848
and sacrificed.
527
00:26:57,948 --> 00:26:59,050
Children are involved
528
00:26:59,149 --> 00:27:01,619
in graveyards and crematoriums,
529
00:27:01,719 --> 00:27:02,886
in funeral parlours
530
00:27:02,987 --> 00:27:04,688
because one of
the primary focuses
531
00:27:04,788 --> 00:27:06,490
of these people
is death.
532
00:27:06,590 --> 00:27:09,460
Everything is attempted
to be destroyed and killed
533
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:11,862
in that child,
and in society,
534
00:27:11,962 --> 00:27:13,263
everything of goodness.
535
00:27:28,912 --> 00:27:30,214
I'm Gordon Coulter.
536
00:27:30,314 --> 00:27:31,448
For many years,
537
00:27:31,548 --> 00:27:34,052
I served as
a law enforcement officer.
538
00:27:34,151 --> 00:27:36,620
Today, it's my privilege
to host this program
539
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:39,423
on a little-known area
in law enforcement.
540
00:27:39,523 --> 00:27:43,394
It's the area of Satanic cults.
541
00:27:43,494 --> 00:27:45,295
People would come in
and they'd be paid
542
00:27:45,396 --> 00:27:47,564
to give these seminars
to the police,
543
00:27:47,665 --> 00:27:50,968
or particularly
the mental health professions.
544
00:27:51,069 --> 00:27:53,237
There were just
all kinds of seminars,
545
00:27:53,337 --> 00:27:55,305
and, you know,
the problem was
546
00:27:55,406 --> 00:27:57,075
that you could
get credits for these
547
00:27:57,174 --> 00:27:58,642
and they'd get
their little certificate.
548
00:27:58,742 --> 00:28:01,112
Now they know
all about Satanic ritual abuse.
549
00:28:01,211 --> 00:28:02,413
A few months ago,
550
00:28:02,513 --> 00:28:04,082
Chicago played hostto a conference
551
00:28:04,181 --> 00:28:06,084
featuring ritual abuse.
552
00:28:06,183 --> 00:28:07,851
One thing that's
super-important to remember,
553
00:28:07,951 --> 00:28:09,054
I think the field is forgetting,
554
00:28:09,154 --> 00:28:10,754
is these people
come from cults.
555
00:28:10,854 --> 00:28:12,589
Like-minded social workers
556
00:28:12,690 --> 00:28:14,491
and therapistseagerly noted
557
00:28:14,591 --> 00:28:16,960
the lateston the Satanic threat.
558
00:28:17,062 --> 00:28:20,297
Police are also being taughthow to "spot Satan".
559
00:28:20,397 --> 00:28:23,168
I, um, do lectures
throughout the country.
560
00:28:23,267 --> 00:28:24,802
In fact, I was in Canada.
561
00:28:24,902 --> 00:28:26,336
Did a presentation, uh,
562
00:28:26,437 --> 00:28:30,407
for about 150 multi-agency
personnel up there.
563
00:28:30,507 --> 00:28:32,342
We called them
"Cops for Christ"--
564
00:28:32,443 --> 00:28:34,578
people who had
their own agenda,
565
00:28:34,678 --> 00:28:37,514
and they created these seminars
and these materials
566
00:28:37,614 --> 00:28:43,854
and presented as actual, uh,
scientific, confirmed fact.
567
00:28:44,988 --> 00:28:49,027
There was an enormous
amount of time spent
568
00:28:49,127 --> 00:28:50,828
dragging police
into conferences
569
00:28:50,928 --> 00:28:53,664
to be taught
how to investigate this stuff.
570
00:28:54,765 --> 00:28:57,468
All of that
can be directly traced back
571
00:28:57,568 --> 00:29:00,471
to the Pazders' book...
and others, you know?
572
00:29:00,571 --> 00:29:02,873
That's what fuelled that.
573
00:29:02,973 --> 00:29:04,641
That's what made that happen.
574
00:29:05,843 --> 00:29:08,278
Pazder said
that it was very widespread,
575
00:29:08,378 --> 00:29:10,981
and he pretty much validated
that claim--
576
00:29:11,082 --> 00:29:15,086
that Satanic ritual abuse
is a real concern. You know?
577
00:29:15,186 --> 00:29:16,987
People panic
over this stuff.
578
00:29:19,523 --> 00:29:21,892
Michelle and Larry
were always talking all the time
579
00:29:21,992 --> 00:29:23,427
of Victoria,
in the church,
580
00:29:23,527 --> 00:29:26,131
explaining Satanic cults...
581
00:29:26,231 --> 00:29:29,399
and that's when someone said
582
00:29:29,500 --> 00:29:31,102
that the child was gonna
be stolen from the hospital,
583
00:29:31,202 --> 00:29:32,503
and it caused major havoc!
584
00:29:32,603 --> 00:29:35,773
We stepped up our extrasecurity staff itself,
585
00:29:35,873 --> 00:29:37,441
and we've takenother certain precautions
586
00:29:37,541 --> 00:29:40,044
within the hospitalthat I can't discuss.
587
00:29:40,145 --> 00:29:41,079
It was in the paper
588
00:29:41,179 --> 00:29:42,412
that Satanists
589
00:29:42,513 --> 00:29:45,315
were going to take a baby
from the nursery.
590
00:29:45,415 --> 00:29:47,118
People were really alarmed.
591
00:29:47,218 --> 00:29:48,485
They were really upset.
592
00:29:48,585 --> 00:29:50,088
The patrol guardsseem to be
593
00:29:50,188 --> 00:29:52,090
wandering around
the halls constantly.
594
00:29:52,190 --> 00:29:55,392
I've been up at timesduring the night and seen them.
595
00:29:55,492 --> 00:29:56,760
Dr. Lawrence Pazder,
596
00:29:56,860 --> 00:29:58,295
who works out ofthis Victoria medical building,
597
00:29:58,395 --> 00:30:00,330
expressed concernthe Satanists' threat
598
00:30:00,430 --> 00:30:01,799
hadn't been checkedthoroughly enough,
599
00:30:01,899 --> 00:30:04,068
and denied any connectionbetween it and his book,
600
00:30:04,169 --> 00:30:06,503
the bestseller,
Michelle Remembers.
601
00:30:06,603 --> 00:30:08,239
People got caught up in it.
602
00:30:08,338 --> 00:30:10,741
It was like a snowball,
you know?
603
00:30:10,841 --> 00:30:13,510
The more interest it got,
the bigger it got,
604
00:30:13,610 --> 00:30:15,612
and it was just...
it was a hot topic.
605
00:30:21,351 --> 00:30:23,821
Up until 1983,
606
00:30:23,921 --> 00:30:27,058
I was not aware of
any of these cases...
607
00:30:27,158 --> 00:30:29,326
and then it just began to grow
608
00:30:29,426 --> 00:30:30,961
and grow and grow,
609
00:30:31,062 --> 00:30:34,398
and I kept hearing about
more and more of these cases.
610
00:30:34,498 --> 00:30:36,301
I'd say,
"Man, this is some weird stuff.
611
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:37,734
This is--
612
00:30:37,835 --> 00:30:40,004
This is some really serious,
heavy-duty stuff here."
613
00:30:40,104 --> 00:30:41,438
I didn't know what to call it!
614
00:30:41,538 --> 00:30:44,775
I didn't say, "Wow!
That's Satanic ritual abuse."
615
00:30:44,875 --> 00:30:46,343
I just heard people
616
00:30:46,443 --> 00:30:48,612
start to refer
to these kinds of cases
617
00:30:48,712 --> 00:30:50,848
as "Satanic ritual abuse..."
618
00:30:50,948 --> 00:30:53,450
and it touched a nerve.
619
00:30:53,550 --> 00:30:54,985
"Satanic! Oh!" Those--
620
00:30:55,086 --> 00:30:56,620
"I knew those people were
involved in all this stuff!"
621
00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:58,189
And ritual?
"Oh, yeah, what's that?
622
00:30:58,289 --> 00:31:00,258
That sounds sinister and evil!"
623
00:31:00,357 --> 00:31:02,060
And in Quantico, Virginia,
624
00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:05,796
Special Agent Kenneth Lanningof the FBI...
625
00:31:05,896 --> 00:31:08,565
I became
an FBI agent in 1970,
626
00:31:08,665 --> 00:31:11,501
and I was a regular FBI agent
for ten years.
627
00:31:11,602 --> 00:31:12,803
Eventually, I was assigned
628
00:31:12,903 --> 00:31:15,739
to the FBI
Behavioral Science Unit,
629
00:31:15,839 --> 00:31:18,642
and I became the Bureau's
expert on Satanism,
630
00:31:18,742 --> 00:31:21,179
the occult, cults--
the whole package.
631
00:31:21,279 --> 00:31:22,880
Special Agent Lanning,
632
00:31:22,980 --> 00:31:24,948
I'm going to ask you
to deal first with the belief,
633
00:31:25,049 --> 00:31:26,717
which is quite widespread
out there now,
634
00:31:26,817 --> 00:31:28,852
that there are just
too many people
635
00:31:28,952 --> 00:31:31,122
telling too many stories
that all sound the same
636
00:31:31,222 --> 00:31:32,789
for this not to be true.
637
00:31:32,890 --> 00:31:35,425
Well, it's very interesting
that that argument--
638
00:31:35,525 --> 00:31:36,760
the fact that there's
so many people
639
00:31:36,860 --> 00:31:39,364
telling the same story,
so often...
640
00:31:39,463 --> 00:31:42,267
As I began to respond
to these cases,
641
00:31:42,367 --> 00:31:45,136
I started out with an open mind,
642
00:31:45,236 --> 00:31:47,437
and I kinda thought
that this had to be going on,
643
00:31:47,537 --> 00:31:49,240
because why would
these people be saying that
644
00:31:49,340 --> 00:31:50,507
if it didn't happen?
645
00:31:50,607 --> 00:31:53,610
Pretty soon,
somebody mentions Dr. Pazder
646
00:31:53,710 --> 00:31:55,646
and the book,
Michelle Remembers ,
647
00:31:55,746 --> 00:31:59,050
so I start to hear them
getting involved...
648
00:31:59,150 --> 00:32:00,884
and the number of cases
649
00:32:00,984 --> 00:32:03,553
that they were consulting on
in this area
650
00:32:03,654 --> 00:32:05,123
just began to grow...
651
00:32:06,590 --> 00:32:09,193
...and then somebody
called me up and told me
652
00:32:09,294 --> 00:32:11,561
about the McMartin
daycare case.
653
00:32:12,529 --> 00:32:14,765
The McMartin case
654
00:32:14,865 --> 00:32:18,502
was one of these preschool-type
of cases,
655
00:32:18,602 --> 00:32:19,770
the daycare cases,
656
00:32:19,870 --> 00:32:22,273
and all of these kids
were making--
657
00:32:22,373 --> 00:32:24,574
you know, ended up
making these accusations
658
00:32:24,675 --> 00:32:26,443
about things
that supposedly happened
659
00:32:26,543 --> 00:32:30,714
at a preschool
in Manhattan Beach, California.
660
00:32:32,150 --> 00:32:34,385
41 youngstersover a six-year period
661
00:32:34,484 --> 00:32:36,321
had not just beensexually molested,
662
00:32:36,421 --> 00:32:37,721
but had also been forced
663
00:32:37,821 --> 00:32:39,856
to participatein Satanic rites.
664
00:32:39,957 --> 00:32:42,492
There were also charges that,
to keep the children quiet,
665
00:32:42,592 --> 00:32:45,396
animals had been mutilated
before their eyes.
666
00:32:45,495 --> 00:32:47,031
They're remembering
being abused
667
00:32:47,131 --> 00:32:48,366
and Satanic rituals.
668
00:32:48,465 --> 00:32:49,967
They're remembering
669
00:32:50,068 --> 00:32:53,371
having to...
kill animals and breed babies,
670
00:32:53,470 --> 00:32:54,905
and kill those babies,
671
00:32:55,006 --> 00:32:56,140
and drink blood,
672
00:32:56,240 --> 00:33:00,944
and all kinds of pretty wild
and bizarre things.
673
00:33:01,045 --> 00:33:02,879
The defendantsfaced more than 300 counts
674
00:33:02,980 --> 00:33:05,615
of sodomy, rape,and oral copulation.
675
00:33:05,716 --> 00:33:07,751
The evidence of abusewas largely developed
676
00:33:07,851 --> 00:33:09,519
by social workerKee MacFarlane,
677
00:33:09,619 --> 00:33:11,422
who used puppetsto get the children--
678
00:33:11,555 --> 00:33:13,391
who were between the agesof two and six--
679
00:33:13,490 --> 00:33:15,093
to reveal what had happened.
680
00:33:15,193 --> 00:33:17,362
"Children's
Institute International,"
681
00:33:17,462 --> 00:33:19,629
which was a group
that was involved
682
00:33:19,730 --> 00:33:22,966
in trying to get
disclosures from children
683
00:33:23,067 --> 00:33:25,869
from the McMartin
daycare case...
684
00:33:25,969 --> 00:33:29,240
decided to bring down
Lawrence and Michelle
685
00:33:29,340 --> 00:33:30,640
as "consultants"
686
00:33:30,741 --> 00:33:32,410
to-- to assist in the process.
687
00:33:32,509 --> 00:33:35,645
So they were directly involved
in getting these disclosures
688
00:33:35,746 --> 00:33:37,914
and "recovering" memories.
689
00:33:38,016 --> 00:33:40,717
Michelle Smith, what are
the goals of these cults?
690
00:33:40,817 --> 00:33:43,920
They want to possess
the soul of the child.
691
00:33:44,022 --> 00:33:46,656
It's not just they want
to capture them physically, um,
692
00:33:46,757 --> 00:33:48,692
but they want to have
the child theirs.
693
00:33:48,792 --> 00:33:50,294
And these are people
whose families
694
00:33:50,395 --> 00:33:51,728
are either involved
in these cults
695
00:33:51,828 --> 00:33:53,398
or who, because of you,
because of some connection,
696
00:33:53,498 --> 00:33:55,266
fell into their hands?
697
00:33:55,366 --> 00:33:59,504
Or through such, um, vehicles
as daycare centers,
698
00:33:59,603 --> 00:34:01,905
where the chil--
they have access to the child.
699
00:34:02,006 --> 00:34:03,707
They went down to the States
700
00:34:03,807 --> 00:34:06,344
for the McMartin trial...
701
00:34:06,444 --> 00:34:10,281
and I know Michelle spent
a lot of time with the kids
702
00:34:10,381 --> 00:34:12,649
because that's what
she would talk to me about,
703
00:34:12,749 --> 00:34:16,487
was the kids,
and how she related to the kids,
704
00:34:16,586 --> 00:34:21,325
and helped the kids
remembering, reliving...
705
00:34:21,426 --> 00:34:23,593
what had happened to them.
706
00:34:23,693 --> 00:34:24,961
The mother of two children,
707
00:34:25,063 --> 00:34:27,265
who admittedthat they were severely abused
708
00:34:27,365 --> 00:34:29,167
while at the McMartin school,
709
00:34:29,267 --> 00:34:31,102
agreed to talk to us on camera.
710
00:34:31,202 --> 00:34:33,637
What actually happenedto your two children?
711
00:34:33,737 --> 00:34:35,739
They were tied up,
sodomized,
712
00:34:35,839 --> 00:34:38,476
um, they were taken
off the premises.
713
00:34:38,575 --> 00:34:40,677
They were threatened...
714
00:34:40,777 --> 00:34:43,347
by watching animals
being slaughtered.
715
00:34:43,448 --> 00:34:46,017
Uh, they were sold
for prostitution.
716
00:34:46,117 --> 00:34:47,818
People wanted to validate
717
00:34:47,918 --> 00:34:49,253
what children were saying,
718
00:34:49,353 --> 00:34:50,821
and the problem is,
719
00:34:50,921 --> 00:34:54,758
if you can't believe
everything that the child says,
720
00:34:54,858 --> 00:34:56,626
what can you believe?
721
00:34:56,726 --> 00:34:59,163
How do you decide what happened
and what didn't happen,
722
00:34:59,263 --> 00:35:00,531
what might have happened?
723
00:35:00,630 --> 00:35:02,632
Maybe the child
misremembered it.
724
00:35:02,732 --> 00:35:03,800
Maybe it's distorted.
725
00:35:03,900 --> 00:35:05,669
Maybe the child
didn't understand.
726
00:35:05,769 --> 00:35:08,339
But I would estimate that,
as time went on,
727
00:35:08,439 --> 00:35:09,806
during that time,
728
00:35:09,906 --> 00:35:12,243
from '83
to maybe the late '80s,
729
00:35:12,343 --> 00:35:15,379
I consulted on hundreds
and hundreds of these cases.
730
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:16,947
How alarmist would you be
731
00:35:17,048 --> 00:35:19,250
about how we should
be dealing with this problem
732
00:35:19,350 --> 00:35:20,717
and how widespread it is?
733
00:35:20,817 --> 00:35:22,386
It's widespread.
734
00:35:22,487 --> 00:35:23,820
It's a--
It's across North America.
735
00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:25,622
We've had reports of it in--
in every province
736
00:35:25,722 --> 00:35:27,225
and in every state.
737
00:35:27,325 --> 00:35:30,361
It isn't, uh, just in California
or just on the West Coast here.
738
00:35:32,063 --> 00:35:33,930
As the daycare cases erupted,
739
00:35:34,031 --> 00:35:38,069
which started
in about '83, '84...
740
00:35:38,169 --> 00:35:39,669
there were police
741
00:35:39,769 --> 00:35:41,139
who were investigating
these cases,
742
00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:44,808
and prosecutors who were
deciding to take them to trial,
743
00:35:44,908 --> 00:35:47,545
who were using
Michelle Remembers
744
00:35:47,644 --> 00:35:50,814
as a kind of a checklist
to develop cases...
745
00:35:50,914 --> 00:35:53,151
which meant that they would
try to come up with questions
746
00:35:53,251 --> 00:35:54,751
based on
what had happened to Michelle
747
00:35:54,851 --> 00:35:56,387
to ask the children.
748
00:36:00,458 --> 00:36:03,127
Michelle Remembers
actually led to this panic
749
00:36:03,227 --> 00:36:06,730
over children
being endangered.
750
00:36:06,830 --> 00:36:08,299
People panic over this stuff.
751
00:36:08,399 --> 00:36:09,766
They panic
752
00:36:09,866 --> 00:36:11,668
because they think that
this is the end of the world.
753
00:36:12,702 --> 00:36:14,605
It's known as
the "Satanic Panic"
754
00:36:14,704 --> 00:36:16,873
from the 1980s and '90s,
755
00:36:16,973 --> 00:36:20,677
and this stuff just spreads
like wildfire!
756
00:36:20,777 --> 00:36:23,147
And, as an FBI agent,
757
00:36:23,247 --> 00:36:24,315
I could step back,
758
00:36:24,415 --> 00:36:27,351
and see cases from
all over the United States
759
00:36:27,451 --> 00:36:28,653
and, eventually,
760
00:36:28,752 --> 00:36:30,087
all over the Western
industrialized world.
761
00:36:33,191 --> 00:36:35,892
Police officers
all over North America
762
00:36:35,992 --> 00:36:37,662
went out looking for this stuff
763
00:36:37,761 --> 00:36:39,030
and prosecuted people.
764
00:36:40,730 --> 00:36:43,201
The Satanic Panic
was picking up steam
765
00:36:43,301 --> 00:36:47,004
and it started to spread out
and affect more people.
766
00:36:48,805 --> 00:36:51,275
It just... went viral.
767
00:36:51,375 --> 00:36:54,811
And all of this was started
by this book.
768
00:37:09,859 --> 00:37:11,028
Victoria was a great city.
769
00:37:11,128 --> 00:37:14,831
Growing up here
was so much fun.
770
00:37:14,931 --> 00:37:16,567
It was happy.
771
00:37:16,667 --> 00:37:17,801
It was...
it was fabulous.
772
00:37:17,901 --> 00:37:19,370
I was really lucky.
773
00:37:21,339 --> 00:37:23,907
You know, my dad had
a great sense of humour.
774
00:37:24,008 --> 00:37:26,711
He also had, like,
a bit of a twinkle in his eye,
775
00:37:26,810 --> 00:37:28,878
and sometimes, at Christmas,
776
00:37:28,979 --> 00:37:30,814
all the family would come over,
777
00:37:30,914 --> 00:37:32,183
and there's a ukulele.
778
00:37:32,283 --> 00:37:35,086
My dad would play
and my mom would sing and...
779
00:37:35,186 --> 00:37:39,056
they were just so happy,
singing along together.
780
00:37:42,159 --> 00:37:43,394
Those were good memories...
781
00:37:45,196 --> 00:37:47,964
...but that was before the book.
782
00:37:50,434 --> 00:37:53,437
Before
he started on this book...
783
00:37:53,537 --> 00:37:55,805
I was at home,
784
00:37:55,905 --> 00:37:58,009
and I was sitting there,
watching that show--
785
00:37:58,109 --> 00:37:59,710
Sybil , was on TV.
786
00:37:59,809 --> 00:38:02,046
Sybil...
787
00:38:02,146 --> 00:38:03,414
Oh...
788
00:38:03,514 --> 00:38:05,349
please don't touch me.
789
00:38:05,449 --> 00:38:06,850
It hurts.
790
00:38:06,950 --> 00:38:09,720
Sybil is about
a woman who goes into therapy,
791
00:38:09,819 --> 00:38:12,922
and she ends up
in extreme therapy,
792
00:38:13,024 --> 00:38:14,759
like, five times a week,
793
00:38:14,858 --> 00:38:17,061
and she gradually remembers
794
00:38:17,161 --> 00:38:20,598
really horrific, sadistic
sexual abuse and torture
795
00:38:20,698 --> 00:38:22,366
by her mother.
796
00:38:22,466 --> 00:38:25,136
The book came out in 1973,
797
00:38:25,236 --> 00:38:29,040
and it was just, like,
this instant wild success,
798
00:38:29,140 --> 00:38:32,543
and then it was made into
a made-for-TV movie in 1976,
799
00:38:32,643 --> 00:38:34,245
and I think about, like,
800
00:38:34,345 --> 00:38:37,548
one-fifth of the American
population watched that.
801
00:38:38,649 --> 00:38:41,185
He said,
"I want to do the same thing,"
802
00:38:41,285 --> 00:38:44,588
and he said, "I don't want to be
just an ordinary psychiatrist.
803
00:38:44,689 --> 00:38:46,557
I want to be famous,"
804
00:38:46,657 --> 00:38:49,393
and he said, "I've got
a patient just like that,"
805
00:38:49,493 --> 00:38:51,995
and that's when he phoned her
and gave her the phone number,
806
00:38:52,096 --> 00:38:53,464
and that's when it started.
807
00:38:53,564 --> 00:38:54,831
It just took off from there.
808
00:38:56,167 --> 00:39:00,271
The phone started
ringing in our house constantly,
809
00:39:00,371 --> 00:39:02,972
and it was usually
really late at night.
810
00:39:03,074 --> 00:39:05,409
You know, to have
a patient calling all the time
811
00:39:05,509 --> 00:39:06,644
was just unusual.
812
00:39:06,744 --> 00:39:08,279
No patient
had ever called before.
813
00:39:09,447 --> 00:39:10,448
When she got the phone number,
814
00:39:10,548 --> 00:39:11,915
she didn't stop phoning.
815
00:39:12,016 --> 00:39:14,318
She'd phone several times a day.
816
00:39:14,418 --> 00:39:18,189
When he came in the door,
I would watch the clock...
817
00:39:18,289 --> 00:39:21,759
and sometimes,
it would get to maybe about
818
00:39:21,858 --> 00:39:23,527
two minutes,
three minutes,
819
00:39:23,627 --> 00:39:25,396
and then
the phone would ring.
820
00:39:26,797 --> 00:39:28,032
And so I thought,
821
00:39:28,132 --> 00:39:31,102
if we went to Mexico
for Christmas,
822
00:39:31,202 --> 00:39:33,704
that he'd be able
to distance himself
823
00:39:33,804 --> 00:39:35,939
in a more realistic way,
824
00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:38,075
but she just phoned
and phoned
825
00:39:38,175 --> 00:39:40,344
and phoned
and phoned and phoned,
826
00:39:40,444 --> 00:39:42,213
and he did believe her.
827
00:39:42,313 --> 00:39:43,848
There's no two ways about it.
828
00:39:43,947 --> 00:39:45,549
He believed everything.
829
00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:52,256
The big change
was that trip,
830
00:39:52,356 --> 00:39:54,792
and when they came back,
I mean, all hell broke loose.
831
00:39:54,891 --> 00:39:57,828
Michelle was, like, showing up
at all these different things
832
00:39:57,927 --> 00:40:00,364
behind us,
and following us and...
833
00:40:00,464 --> 00:40:03,033
it was frightening.
834
00:40:03,134 --> 00:40:05,102
We went to Edmonton
to a wedding
835
00:40:05,202 --> 00:40:07,638
and she followed us
all the way,
836
00:40:07,738 --> 00:40:08,905
and I cried all the way,
837
00:40:09,006 --> 00:40:11,275
because there she was,
right behind us.
838
00:40:12,610 --> 00:40:14,378
His patient was everywhere.
839
00:40:33,864 --> 00:40:35,999
We thought this was the story
840
00:40:36,100 --> 00:40:38,602
that she used
to get his full attention.
841
00:40:39,570 --> 00:40:41,672
It had him wrapped
around her finger.
842
00:40:41,772 --> 00:40:43,107
No question.
843
00:40:43,207 --> 00:40:45,242
You know, she was always there,
844
00:40:45,342 --> 00:40:47,977
always reaching
into our house with the phone,
845
00:40:48,078 --> 00:40:50,281
showing up
at the doorstep.
846
00:40:50,381 --> 00:40:55,219
That was the Michelle we knew
before the book.
847
00:40:55,319 --> 00:40:58,456
To us, she was like...
this stalker.
848
00:40:59,423 --> 00:41:01,958
Although, I think he saw her
differently than we did.
849
00:41:02,059 --> 00:41:03,761
Definitely.
850
00:41:03,861 --> 00:41:06,664
I felt that she was...
851
00:41:06,764 --> 00:41:08,632
deeply in love with him.
852
00:41:09,767 --> 00:41:13,037
She was very protective of him,
853
00:41:13,137 --> 00:41:15,272
and, you know...
854
00:41:15,372 --> 00:41:17,808
all of us that--
that did the typing,
855
00:41:17,908 --> 00:41:19,877
we all felt the same way,
856
00:41:19,976 --> 00:41:23,247
that she just wanted Larry
to herself.
857
00:41:24,281 --> 00:41:27,585
Essentially, this has become
a relationship where...
858
00:41:27,685 --> 00:41:29,320
the boundaries
859
00:41:29,420 --> 00:41:31,889
that exist
between doctor and patient
860
00:41:32,022 --> 00:41:33,457
are no longer there,
861
00:41:33,557 --> 00:41:39,663
and Dr. Pazder and Michelle
are first holding hands.
862
00:41:39,763 --> 00:41:44,301
He's then sometimes placing
a hand on top of her head,
863
00:41:44,401 --> 00:41:46,370
and gradually they move
from the couch
864
00:41:46,470 --> 00:41:48,272
to a rubber mat
he has on the floor
865
00:41:48,372 --> 00:41:51,809
so that they can both lie
on the floor together,
866
00:41:51,909 --> 00:41:54,745
their bodies touching,
867
00:41:54,845 --> 00:41:57,348
and according to this book,
868
00:41:57,448 --> 00:42:00,217
this is "very necessary"
for the therapeutic experience.
869
00:42:00,317 --> 00:42:02,653
She's experiencing
so much pain,
870
00:42:02,753 --> 00:42:04,288
she's in so much distress,
871
00:42:04,388 --> 00:42:07,024
that she needs to be held
872
00:42:07,124 --> 00:42:09,894
in order
to continue remembering.
873
00:42:14,031 --> 00:42:16,100
You know,
around that time,
874
00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:19,503
my dad started sort of
disappearing quite a bit,
875
00:42:19,603 --> 00:42:23,073
and we didn't know
where he was...
876
00:42:24,174 --> 00:42:26,510
...and my mom
didn't know where he was.
877
00:42:29,179 --> 00:42:30,648
I didn't...
878
00:42:30,748 --> 00:42:34,451
I just knew all these weird
things were going on, and, uh...
879
00:42:34,552 --> 00:42:38,322
he was making a lot of effort
to keep it secret.
880
00:42:39,490 --> 00:42:42,259
So I started asking around,
881
00:42:42,359 --> 00:42:45,729
and I found out Father Guy
was involved with it.
882
00:42:47,364 --> 00:42:50,200
Larry had all tape recorders
and all kinds of equipment,
883
00:42:50,301 --> 00:42:53,837
so I phoned
and recorded Father Guy.
884
00:43:47,625 --> 00:43:49,226
Father Guy said
885
00:43:49,326 --> 00:43:51,395
many people
are going to be killed,
886
00:43:51,495 --> 00:43:54,065
and many people
are going to be saved, and...
887
00:43:54,164 --> 00:43:58,135
you know, there was
something wrong up there.
888
00:43:59,269 --> 00:44:00,704
And Father Guy told me
889
00:44:00,804 --> 00:44:04,341
that they were gonna make
a million dollars from the book
890
00:44:04,441 --> 00:44:06,910
and there was
a lot of money involved.
891
00:44:08,079 --> 00:44:11,515
So we went to see
the Bishop Remi De Roo,
892
00:44:11,615 --> 00:44:14,685
and said, you know,
"Stop supporting this."
893
00:44:15,886 --> 00:44:18,689
But I didn't realize
he went to Rome with him.
894
00:44:19,690 --> 00:44:23,961
I didn't realize
that he was so mixed up in it
895
00:44:24,062 --> 00:44:25,663
until the book came out,
896
00:44:25,763 --> 00:44:29,199
but they obviously were
all believing all of this.
897
00:44:30,267 --> 00:44:32,569
They were all for it...
898
00:44:32,670 --> 00:44:36,840
but I can't understand
why anybody would believe it.
899
00:44:38,043 --> 00:44:43,213
I don't know why these people
would follow such a stupid book.
900
00:44:44,214 --> 00:44:45,215
One of
the first things that came out
901
00:44:45,315 --> 00:44:46,383
after the book came out
902
00:44:46,483 --> 00:44:48,652
was the article
in People Magazine,
903
00:44:48,752 --> 00:44:51,255
and there she is,
lying on this couch,
904
00:44:51,355 --> 00:44:53,957
and she's got her top off
and...
905
00:44:54,059 --> 00:44:55,959
Why would you give that picture
in the first place
906
00:44:56,061 --> 00:44:57,594
to a-- to a magazine?
907
00:44:57,695 --> 00:44:59,263
Like, you've got
a wife back home.
908
00:44:59,363 --> 00:45:00,831
You're really
gonna get shit for this.
909
00:45:02,199 --> 00:45:03,400
That was heartbreaking,
910
00:45:03,500 --> 00:45:06,970
to think that he would
do that, you know?
911
00:45:07,072 --> 00:45:10,574
So I realized
that there was no hope.
912
00:45:12,242 --> 00:45:15,746
For me, that's...
that's where his...
913
00:45:15,846 --> 00:45:18,549
affection was.
914
00:45:19,783 --> 00:45:23,088
Michelle
was still married to Doug.
915
00:45:23,188 --> 00:45:24,354
He had a good job.
916
00:45:24,455 --> 00:45:25,556
You know,
Michelle got to stay home
917
00:45:25,656 --> 00:45:28,358
and do what she wanted to do.
918
00:45:28,459 --> 00:45:31,762
But they had
a really hard divorce.
919
00:45:32,730 --> 00:45:35,265
Michelle wanted
everything her way
920
00:45:35,365 --> 00:45:37,168
and he did not
see it coming at all.
921
00:45:39,603 --> 00:45:41,072
When that book came out,
922
00:45:41,172 --> 00:45:42,639
it was really rotten,
923
00:45:42,740 --> 00:45:46,677
and it was so hurtful
to see my mom at that time.
924
00:45:46,777 --> 00:45:47,544
She was in bed
925
00:45:47,644 --> 00:45:49,880
and she was, like,
destroyed.
926
00:45:49,980 --> 00:45:53,017
My dad was her first boyfriend.
927
00:45:54,085 --> 00:45:57,254
They had just been together,
like, her whole life,
928
00:45:57,354 --> 00:45:59,090
that's the only person
she knew.
929
00:45:59,190 --> 00:46:00,791
He definitely, like...
930
00:46:00,891 --> 00:46:03,393
he broke her heart.
931
00:46:04,428 --> 00:46:06,897
And yeah, no, he wasn't the same
with me at all.
932
00:46:06,997 --> 00:46:08,066
He wasn't friendly.
933
00:46:08,166 --> 00:46:09,333
He wasn't joking.
934
00:46:09,433 --> 00:46:11,268
He kind of didn't have
that same look.
935
00:46:11,368 --> 00:46:12,603
There wasn't that twinkle.
936
00:46:12,703 --> 00:46:14,671
There's just a lot of sadness.
937
00:46:16,974 --> 00:46:18,375
I got so upset
938
00:46:18,475 --> 00:46:21,845
that I just went down
and filed for a divorce.
939
00:46:22,946 --> 00:46:25,349
I said forget it.
940
00:46:27,684 --> 00:46:29,087
Forget it.
941
00:46:29,187 --> 00:46:30,687
No way.
942
00:46:31,722 --> 00:46:33,423
Now, Michelle Smith,
943
00:46:33,524 --> 00:46:35,492
you survived a year of abuse
by one of these cults
944
00:46:35,592 --> 00:46:37,394
when you were five years old.
945
00:46:37,494 --> 00:46:39,596
When you first
talked about these things,
946
00:46:39,696 --> 00:46:41,532
I mean, did people think
this was a fantasy,
947
00:46:41,632 --> 00:46:43,634
that y-you'd made this all up,
it was such hocus-pocus,
948
00:46:43,734 --> 00:46:46,336
that it couldn't possibly
have happened?
949
00:46:46,436 --> 00:46:48,539
Well, I was
one of the first to stand up
950
00:46:48,639 --> 00:46:50,574
and start to recount
these kinds of things
951
00:46:50,674 --> 00:46:53,111
and to bring it, um...
publicly,
952
00:46:53,211 --> 00:46:55,113
and I think people
are so uncomfortable
953
00:46:55,213 --> 00:46:56,947
and so afraid
of this whole subject
954
00:46:57,048 --> 00:47:00,084
that, yes, I experienced
a lot of the uncomfortableness,
955
00:47:00,185 --> 00:47:01,618
but what I also experienced
956
00:47:01,718 --> 00:47:04,189
was a tremendous number
of people saying,
957
00:47:04,289 --> 00:47:06,257
"this is true."
958
00:47:06,390 --> 00:47:07,491
I'm a cynical person
959
00:47:07,591 --> 00:47:09,827
who spent 30 years
in law enforcement.
960
00:47:09,927 --> 00:47:12,696
I assume that people are lying
unless I know otherwise,
961
00:47:12,796 --> 00:47:15,599
but a lot of therapists
have an opposite bias.
962
00:47:15,699 --> 00:47:18,036
They assume that everybody's
telling the truth,
963
00:47:18,136 --> 00:47:19,670
unless they know otherwise,
964
00:47:19,770 --> 00:47:23,241
and actually, this becomes
a huge aspect
965
00:47:23,340 --> 00:47:27,444
to these allegations
of Satanic ritual abuse,
966
00:47:27,544 --> 00:47:29,813
particularly with what's called
the adult survivors,
967
00:47:29,913 --> 00:47:31,515
and that's what
Michelle would be.
968
00:47:31,615 --> 00:47:33,550
The things
in the adult survivor cases--
969
00:47:33,650 --> 00:47:35,485
the stuff was even more weird
970
00:47:35,586 --> 00:47:37,055
than it was
in the younger kids
971
00:47:37,155 --> 00:47:38,622
at the daycare centres.
972
00:47:38,722 --> 00:47:42,426
Bonnie, you were made pregnant
when you were 11 years old?
973
00:47:42,526 --> 00:47:46,496
Yes. That child
was sacrificed within the cult
974
00:47:46,597 --> 00:47:48,333
when she was
about six months old.
975
00:47:48,432 --> 00:47:51,169
S-- Sacrificed how?
976
00:47:51,269 --> 00:47:52,736
By being stabbed,
977
00:47:52,836 --> 00:47:57,108
and I was coerced into
doing the act myself,
978
00:47:57,208 --> 00:47:58,842
with my own child.
979
00:47:58,942 --> 00:48:01,179
Uh, the police
never found out about this?
980
00:48:01,279 --> 00:48:06,351
The groups are extremely careful
to cover up all evidence
981
00:48:06,450 --> 00:48:09,419
through using crematoriums
and things like that.
982
00:48:09,519 --> 00:48:11,655
At least that's how
I understand it.
983
00:48:11,755 --> 00:48:14,025
"Adult survivors"
984
00:48:14,125 --> 00:48:16,027
are where you have an adult
985
00:48:16,127 --> 00:48:17,961
who goes into therapy
986
00:48:18,062 --> 00:48:20,831
without any memories
of horrific abuse
987
00:48:20,931 --> 00:48:22,066
and comes out
988
00:48:22,166 --> 00:48:25,402
with all of these allegedly
repressed and recovered
989
00:48:25,502 --> 00:48:26,603
trauma memories.
990
00:48:26,703 --> 00:48:30,208
That was some kind of
altogether...
991
00:48:30,308 --> 00:48:32,010
different thing.
992
00:48:32,110 --> 00:48:35,579
This wasn't just a little kid
and a fantasy.
993
00:48:36,580 --> 00:48:37,781
And you would have patients
994
00:48:37,881 --> 00:48:39,449
who had essentially
the Michelle experience,
995
00:48:39,549 --> 00:48:41,252
where suddenly,
you were logging enough hours
996
00:48:41,352 --> 00:48:44,289
on the couch,
"in the depths,"
997
00:48:44,389 --> 00:48:46,623
to qualify
as a full-time job,
998
00:48:46,723 --> 00:48:49,826
and where a doctor
who you trust...
999
00:48:50,961 --> 00:48:52,363
...is telling you
1000
00:48:52,462 --> 00:48:54,631
if there is
anything wrong with you,
1001
00:48:54,731 --> 00:48:58,435
it was a result of sexual abuse
that you had forgotten,
1002
00:48:58,535 --> 00:49:00,004
and probably Satanic abuse,
1003
00:49:00,104 --> 00:49:01,939
because apparently,
there's a lot of that,
1004
00:49:02,040 --> 00:49:03,408
and you can read about it
in this book
1005
00:49:03,507 --> 00:49:04,574
that was a bestseller.
1006
00:49:06,443 --> 00:49:08,379
We have so many cases
1007
00:49:08,478 --> 00:49:11,416
that essentially are the fruit
1008
00:49:11,515 --> 00:49:14,685
of this tree
that Michelle and Larry planted.
1009
00:49:14,785 --> 00:49:17,754
There are therapists
all over the country today--
1010
00:49:17,854 --> 00:49:20,524
many of them that
are not really qualified
1011
00:49:20,624 --> 00:49:21,925
to be therapists--
1012
00:49:22,026 --> 00:49:24,395
that are-are passing on
these stories.
1013
00:49:26,097 --> 00:49:27,664
They were salesmen.
1014
00:49:27,764 --> 00:49:30,534
They were going around
the country,
1015
00:49:30,634 --> 00:49:33,937
selling fear of Satan,
fear of Satanic cults,
1016
00:49:34,038 --> 00:49:37,841
and they were--
they made a living out of it.
1017
00:49:37,941 --> 00:49:40,944
Her therapy--
13 months of in-patient work
1018
00:49:41,045 --> 00:49:43,880
for misdiagnosed Satanic,
ritualistic, everything...
1019
00:49:43,981 --> 00:49:49,753
her therapy,
over $1,300,000 for her,
1020
00:49:49,853 --> 00:49:52,622
then they got both of
her teenage daughters in.
1021
00:49:52,723 --> 00:49:53,957
One daughter went in
1022
00:49:54,058 --> 00:49:57,161
for 11 months
of in-patient therapy.
1023
00:49:57,261 --> 00:49:59,496
I think it's very clear
1024
00:49:59,596 --> 00:50:01,631
that the therapists saw
1025
00:50:01,732 --> 00:50:03,700
the opportunity
to make some money
1026
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:07,338
off of these wild accusations
and stories.
1027
00:50:07,438 --> 00:50:08,572
This wouldn't have happened
1028
00:50:08,672 --> 00:50:10,408
had it not been
for the therapists
1029
00:50:10,507 --> 00:50:12,676
who compromised their ethics
1030
00:50:12,776 --> 00:50:15,946
and encouraged their patients
1031
00:50:16,047 --> 00:50:19,183
to elaborate
further and further.
1032
00:50:19,283 --> 00:50:21,452
They cut us and made ussign our names in blood
1033
00:50:21,551 --> 00:50:22,786
in The Satanic Bible.
1034
00:50:22,886 --> 00:50:24,855
That was the first ritual
that I remember.
1035
00:50:24,955 --> 00:50:28,459
I was informed that my parents
were in the occult.
1036
00:50:28,558 --> 00:50:29,860
She claimed
1037
00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:32,596
that we had a pizza delivery boy
come to our home.
1038
00:50:32,696 --> 00:50:35,433
We cut him up, grilled him,
and ate him.
1039
00:50:35,532 --> 00:50:37,301
I said,
"I know what you did.
1040
00:50:37,402 --> 00:50:39,703
You're the ringleader
of this cult
1041
00:50:39,803 --> 00:50:41,472
that I know
you murdered babies,
1042
00:50:41,571 --> 00:50:43,940
and I know you made me
murder babies,
1043
00:50:44,042 --> 00:50:45,176
and eat babies,
1044
00:50:45,276 --> 00:50:46,444
and I know just what you are.
1045
00:50:46,543 --> 00:50:47,978
I know you
for the Satanist that you are."
1046
00:50:48,079 --> 00:50:49,813
And Sally,
most of these women
1047
00:50:49,913 --> 00:50:51,548
don't come forward
until their mid-30s,
1048
00:50:51,648 --> 00:50:53,117
after five or seven years'
worth of--
1049
00:50:53,217 --> 00:50:56,620
This is not a case in which
someone has repressed memory.
1050
00:50:56,720 --> 00:50:58,523
This is a courageous woman
who has--
1051
00:51:00,857 --> 00:51:02,759
I would run into
adult survivors
1052
00:51:02,859 --> 00:51:04,495
on, like, The Sally Show ,
1053
00:51:04,594 --> 00:51:07,465
and so many different kinds
of people--
1054
00:51:07,564 --> 00:51:08,598
including educated people--
1055
00:51:08,698 --> 00:51:10,967
believed
that this was happening,
1056
00:51:11,069 --> 00:51:13,471
and if you didn't believe it,
you were suspect--
1057
00:51:13,570 --> 00:51:16,374
I mean, at best,
of not caring about children,
1058
00:51:16,474 --> 00:51:19,110
and at worst,
that you are a Satanist.
1059
00:51:19,210 --> 00:51:21,145
Are you accusing me of
being a Satanist? Yes or no?
1060
00:51:21,245 --> 00:51:23,247
You're acting like--
You're acting like one.
1061
00:51:23,347 --> 00:51:24,714
Say it. Yes or no?
1062
00:51:24,815 --> 00:51:27,085
I'm saying you're acting like
a Satanist right now.
1063
00:51:27,185 --> 00:51:29,653
Some people suggested
that what they thought
1064
00:51:29,753 --> 00:51:32,622
was causing Satanism
was heavy-metal music,
1065
00:51:32,722 --> 00:51:33,924
and some of the people
1066
00:51:34,025 --> 00:51:36,060
who were trying
to investigate this stuff,
1067
00:51:36,160 --> 00:51:37,861
they thought
they were doing a good thing.
1068
00:51:37,961 --> 00:51:39,163
How often do you find
1069
00:51:39,263 --> 00:51:40,565
heavy-metal-music indicators
1070
00:51:40,664 --> 00:51:43,667
at the scene of a crime
involving Satanic worship?
1071
00:51:43,767 --> 00:51:46,636
Probably about 35 to 40%
of the calls.
1072
00:51:46,736 --> 00:51:48,039
-Regularly, then?
-Yes.
1073
00:51:48,139 --> 00:51:51,209
At the same time,
there was kind of a...
1074
00:51:51,309 --> 00:51:52,809
I guess you'd call it a rumour,
1075
00:51:52,909 --> 00:51:54,412
although it got picked up
by the press
1076
00:51:54,512 --> 00:51:58,449
and it was taken as absolutely--
as fact, to the effect that--
1077
00:51:58,549 --> 00:51:59,850
that, you know,
1078
00:51:59,950 --> 00:52:02,619
thousands and thousands
of children were missing.
1079
00:52:02,719 --> 00:52:03,954
Thousands.
1080
00:52:04,055 --> 00:52:06,656
You know, then,
the next question is, well, why?
1081
00:52:06,756 --> 00:52:08,758
I mean, who's taking them?
1082
00:52:08,859 --> 00:52:11,728
Supposedly, the Satanists
were taking the children.
1083
00:52:11,828 --> 00:52:13,598
I believe that they do.
1084
00:52:13,697 --> 00:52:15,932
I can't-- We can't prove
that they do,
1085
00:52:16,033 --> 00:52:18,536
but as
a law-enforcement officer,
1086
00:52:18,635 --> 00:52:23,040
I question two million children
missing in the United States,
1087
00:52:23,141 --> 00:52:26,210
knowing that many, many of those
are not runaways.
1088
00:52:26,310 --> 00:52:28,712
They were saying
two million children
1089
00:52:28,812 --> 00:52:30,515
are sacrificed every year
in the United States.
1090
00:52:30,615 --> 00:52:32,383
3.71 million children
1091
00:52:32,483 --> 00:52:34,051
were born every year
in the States.
1092
00:52:34,152 --> 00:52:36,853
You're telling me that 54%
of the children born
1093
00:52:36,953 --> 00:52:39,357
are all kidnapped
and sacrificed?
1094
00:52:39,457 --> 00:52:40,690
Really? Like...
1095
00:52:40,790 --> 00:52:42,959
no evidence of that, folks.
1096
00:52:43,060 --> 00:52:44,828
The hard evidence
is difficult to find,
1097
00:52:44,928 --> 00:52:46,564
because
if a child is sacrificed,
1098
00:52:46,663 --> 00:52:48,665
that child's body
isn't going to be left.
1099
00:52:48,765 --> 00:52:50,800
If it's
an orthodox Satanic cult,
1100
00:52:50,901 --> 00:52:52,603
they're going to burn the body
1101
00:52:52,702 --> 00:52:54,138
and they're going to eat it
during ceremony,
1102
00:52:54,238 --> 00:52:55,872
so they'll leave
no evidence around.
1103
00:52:55,972 --> 00:52:57,741
The proof
that we have had disappears.
1104
00:52:57,841 --> 00:52:59,843
W-What proof has disappeared,
that we had?
1105
00:52:59,943 --> 00:53:03,147
Okay, a good example
is I had, uh, baby wax.
1106
00:53:03,247 --> 00:53:04,549
What's "baby wax"?
1107
00:53:04,649 --> 00:53:05,682
Wax from a baby
that was burned.
1108
00:53:05,782 --> 00:53:06,950
A baby that was burned
1109
00:53:07,051 --> 00:53:09,253
and the wax was made
into a candle
1110
00:53:09,353 --> 00:53:10,521
of b-baby wax.
1111
00:53:10,621 --> 00:53:12,557
It's a very important thing
in the cult.
1112
00:53:12,657 --> 00:53:15,393
They make candles
out of babies?
1113
00:53:18,496 --> 00:53:20,598
It was part of the zeitgeist.
1114
00:53:20,697 --> 00:53:23,134
There was just
a complete lack of skepticism.
1115
00:53:23,234 --> 00:53:24,569
I mean,
1116
00:53:24,669 --> 00:53:26,637
Michelle Remembers had
something
to do with that, right?
1117
00:53:26,736 --> 00:53:28,272
Because in Michelle Remembers,
it's kind of,
1118
00:53:28,372 --> 00:53:30,707
"This is what's happening
to the babies."
1119
00:53:31,975 --> 00:53:34,145
Within Michelle Remembers,
1120
00:53:34,245 --> 00:53:36,846
they use the term
"Church of Satan"
1121
00:53:36,947 --> 00:53:38,549
to describe this...
1122
00:53:38,649 --> 00:53:41,851
cabal of
vile, terrible people
1123
00:53:41,952 --> 00:53:44,488
doing
these heinous criminal acts--
1124
00:53:44,589 --> 00:53:46,923
saying
that we sacrifice animals,
1125
00:53:47,024 --> 00:53:49,660
that we sacrifice babies...
1126
00:53:49,759 --> 00:53:53,030
but the whole point
of the Church of Satan--
1127
00:53:53,130 --> 00:53:56,133
what Anton LaVey founded
in 1966--
1128
00:53:56,234 --> 00:53:58,202
was liberation
1129
00:53:58,302 --> 00:54:00,804
and embracing
our strangeness, our uniqueness,
1130
00:54:00,904 --> 00:54:03,773
the things that make us
different from each other.
1131
00:54:03,873 --> 00:54:05,710
This is
a very selfish religion.
1132
00:54:05,809 --> 00:54:06,711
We believe in greed.
1133
00:54:06,810 --> 00:54:07,712
We believe in selfishness.
1134
00:54:07,811 --> 00:54:09,080
We believe in
1135
00:54:09,180 --> 00:54:12,083
all of the lustful thoughts
that motivate man
1136
00:54:12,183 --> 00:54:15,219
because this is man's
natural, uh, feeling.
1137
00:54:15,319 --> 00:54:18,089
This is based on
what man naturally would do.
1138
00:54:18,189 --> 00:54:20,924
Anton LaVey blended
1139
00:54:21,025 --> 00:54:24,028
magic and science
and rationality,
1140
00:54:24,128 --> 00:54:26,830
and a lot of people,
especially in those early days,
1141
00:54:26,930 --> 00:54:30,034
found the Church of Satan
uniquely liberating,
1142
00:54:30,134 --> 00:54:32,336
for one reason or another.
1143
00:54:32,436 --> 00:54:34,005
They found Satanism
1144
00:54:34,105 --> 00:54:36,440
to be a celebration
of their differences.
1145
00:54:36,540 --> 00:54:37,841
It wasn't a tolerance.
1146
00:54:37,941 --> 00:54:40,044
It was a celebration.
1147
00:54:40,144 --> 00:54:43,314
And that's what
Satanism is to us,
1148
00:54:43,414 --> 00:54:44,548
to a Satanist.
1149
00:54:44,649 --> 00:54:46,617
Are you planning on training
a lot of little devils?
1150
00:54:48,019 --> 00:54:50,087
Only those that wish
to become little devils.
1151
00:54:50,187 --> 00:54:51,656
-Are you married?
-Oh, yes.
1152
00:54:51,756 --> 00:54:52,723
Do you have
any little devils?
1153
00:54:52,822 --> 00:54:53,990
Oh, yes. I have two.
1154
00:54:54,091 --> 00:54:56,127
Are you gonna raise them
as Satanic kids?
1155
00:54:56,227 --> 00:54:57,161
Certainly,
1156
00:54:57,261 --> 00:54:58,763
but not to go around
chopping people up
1157
00:54:58,862 --> 00:55:00,797
or sacrificing human beings.
1158
00:55:02,633 --> 00:55:03,867
One of the things
1159
00:55:03,967 --> 00:55:06,137
that Anton LaVey
was particularly miffed about
1160
00:55:06,237 --> 00:55:09,774
was how Michelle Remembers
was marketed--
1161
00:55:09,873 --> 00:55:12,909
that it was supposedly
a true story...
1162
00:55:14,078 --> 00:55:15,780
...but Michelle Remembers,
obviously,
1163
00:55:15,879 --> 00:55:17,782
is so chock full
1164
00:55:17,881 --> 00:55:21,652
of things that Satanism
very clearly isn't.
1165
00:55:21,752 --> 00:55:24,322
He said we are
an established religion,
1166
00:55:24,422 --> 00:55:27,991
protected by the Constitution
of the United States.
1167
00:55:28,092 --> 00:55:29,460
Here they were,
using it,
1168
00:55:29,560 --> 00:55:32,463
as if we were some international
criminal organization.
1169
00:55:33,664 --> 00:55:35,099
And that's why
the Church of Satan
1170
00:55:35,199 --> 00:55:37,901
brought a defamation suit
against them
1171
00:55:38,001 --> 00:55:40,904
in the court of law
in 1981.
1172
00:55:42,073 --> 00:55:45,509
And subsequent printings
of Michelle Remembers
1173
00:55:45,609 --> 00:55:47,044
did take out
1174
00:55:47,144 --> 00:55:50,514
most of the references
to the Church of Satan.
1175
00:55:51,582 --> 00:55:52,783
Hail Satan.
1176
00:55:52,882 --> 00:55:54,951
Hail Satan.
1177
00:55:58,456 --> 00:55:59,657
I don't believe
1178
00:55:59,757 --> 00:56:02,360
that my mom
is that type of person
1179
00:56:02,460 --> 00:56:05,995
that would turn her child
over to a Satanic cult.
1180
00:56:07,198 --> 00:56:11,435
It was not part of my childhood
when I was a kid.
1181
00:56:12,436 --> 00:56:14,605
I couldn't see
my mom doing that.
1182
00:56:14,705 --> 00:56:15,905
I just couldn't...
1183
00:56:16,006 --> 00:56:17,941
As a mother,
1184
00:56:18,042 --> 00:56:20,977
your instinct
is to protect your child...
1185
00:56:21,078 --> 00:56:23,047
but when I was 10 years old,
1186
00:56:23,147 --> 00:56:26,851
my mom was diagnosed
with non-Hodgkin's lymphoma,
1187
00:56:26,950 --> 00:56:28,652
and so she died
shortly after that.
1188
00:56:29,787 --> 00:56:31,455
When my mom passed away,
1189
00:56:31,555 --> 00:56:33,257
her wish was
that she wanted to be cremated.
1190
00:56:33,357 --> 00:56:35,459
She wanted to have her ashes
put in the crypt.
1191
00:56:35,559 --> 00:56:38,295
This is how important
this church was to her.
1192
00:56:41,632 --> 00:56:43,401
It was important to Mom.
1193
00:56:43,501 --> 00:56:46,070
You know, her marriage
was not great,
1194
00:56:46,170 --> 00:56:48,672
so she came here for support.
1195
00:56:53,377 --> 00:56:55,312
In the book,
1196
00:56:55,413 --> 00:56:57,281
Michelle said that my mother
was this horrible person,
1197
00:56:57,381 --> 00:57:00,651
giving up her little girl
to a Satanic cult...
1198
00:57:01,786 --> 00:57:04,755
But I don't understand why
Michelle would even think that.
1199
00:57:04,855 --> 00:57:06,956
What is wrong with her?
1200
00:57:08,159 --> 00:57:09,794
Why did you think
1201
00:57:09,894 --> 00:57:11,162
that there were others
1202
00:57:11,262 --> 00:57:13,130
who would have been
through this experience?
1203
00:57:13,230 --> 00:57:14,732
Because when I was
in that experience,
1204
00:57:14,832 --> 00:57:16,066
I wasn't the only child.
1205
00:57:16,167 --> 00:57:17,902
So there had to be others,
1206
00:57:18,001 --> 00:57:21,038
and I knew this wasn't
an isolated thing in--
1207
00:57:21,138 --> 00:57:22,173
in just Victoria.
1208
00:57:22,273 --> 00:57:24,175
I thought
maybe there would be...
1209
00:57:24,275 --> 00:57:26,377
you know, unrealistic,
1210
00:57:26,477 --> 00:57:29,680
30, 60 people out there
at the most,
1211
00:57:29,780 --> 00:57:30,915
not the hundreds...
1212
00:57:31,015 --> 00:57:32,982
It was in 1987,
1213
00:57:33,083 --> 00:57:35,419
and it was a conference
in Richmond, Virginia,
1214
00:57:35,519 --> 00:57:37,721
where I met Dr. Pazder.
1215
00:57:37,822 --> 00:57:39,757
So we sat in this room
1216
00:57:39,857 --> 00:57:42,026
and Dr. Pazder
was up at the podium
1217
00:57:42,126 --> 00:57:44,961
and Michelle was
off to the side there.
1218
00:57:45,062 --> 00:57:46,996
One thing
that really got me interested
1219
00:57:47,097 --> 00:57:49,333
is Dr. Pazder indicated
1220
00:57:49,433 --> 00:57:51,968
that he thought
that most of the alleged cases
1221
00:57:52,069 --> 00:57:53,671
were a bunch of nonsense,
1222
00:57:53,771 --> 00:57:55,339
but he then said something
1223
00:57:55,439 --> 00:57:58,309
that I was just
tremendously interested in.
1224
00:57:58,409 --> 00:58:02,480
"I'm gonna tell you
how to identify the real cases."
1225
00:58:02,580 --> 00:58:05,316
So I said, "Man, this could be
really valuable information,"
1226
00:58:05,416 --> 00:58:07,351
because I never was
one of those people who believed
1227
00:58:07,451 --> 00:58:09,986
they were all true
or they were all false.
1228
00:58:10,087 --> 00:58:13,090
There can be
a middle ground in here.
1229
00:58:13,190 --> 00:58:15,159
He would start
to describe these rituals
1230
00:58:15,259 --> 00:58:17,828
and began to talk
about Michelle.
1231
00:58:17,928 --> 00:58:20,130
But cops tend to ask
a lot of questions,
1232
00:58:20,231 --> 00:58:22,999
so the cops in the audience
began to raise their hand--
1233
00:58:23,100 --> 00:58:24,468
"What about this?"
"What about that?"
1234
00:58:24,568 --> 00:58:26,937
and-and I just
kinda began to notice
1235
00:58:27,037 --> 00:58:28,806
that every time
somebody asked a question,
1236
00:58:28,906 --> 00:58:30,608
Michelle never said a whole lot,
1237
00:58:30,708 --> 00:58:33,110
and he would always
answer the question,
1238
00:58:33,210 --> 00:58:34,945
and after a while,
1239
00:58:35,045 --> 00:58:37,281
after this happened
half a dozen times,
1240
00:58:37,381 --> 00:58:38,883
I just raised my hand,
I said,
1241
00:58:38,983 --> 00:58:43,254
"I'm curious, when people ask--
this all happened to Michelle.
1242
00:58:43,354 --> 00:58:45,890
"How come she doesn't
give the answer?
1243
00:58:45,990 --> 00:58:47,124
She turns to you."
1244
00:58:47,224 --> 00:58:49,026
He just said some version of--
1245
00:58:49,126 --> 00:58:50,494
I don't remember
his exact words--
1246
00:58:50,594 --> 00:58:52,463
something like, "Well, when
she first came to me,
1247
00:58:52,563 --> 00:58:54,298
she had no conscious memory
of it,
1248
00:58:54,398 --> 00:58:55,933
and through this therapy,
1249
00:58:56,033 --> 00:59:00,070
this story began to come out
over a year or more as time..."
1250
00:59:00,170 --> 00:59:03,774
and then he recorded it,
wrote it all down,
1251
00:59:03,874 --> 00:59:05,175
and documented it,
1252
00:59:05,276 --> 00:59:07,411
and then after that...
1253
00:59:07,511 --> 00:59:09,213
it kind of-- most of it
left her memory
1254
00:59:09,313 --> 00:59:11,982
and he was now
the keeper of the story.
1255
00:59:12,082 --> 00:59:14,685
I decided that
that greatly reduced the value
1256
00:59:14,785 --> 00:59:16,186
of what he was telling me,
1257
00:59:16,287 --> 00:59:17,555
so I put my pen down
1258
00:59:17,655 --> 00:59:20,391
and didn't take
as many notes after that.
1259
00:59:20,491 --> 00:59:24,194
Every time she entered
into a new area of working,
1260
00:59:24,295 --> 00:59:25,896
everything
that she had said before
1261
00:59:25,996 --> 00:59:27,331
was totally consistent,
1262
00:59:27,431 --> 00:59:30,768
and then, when she had
completed what she had done,
1263
00:59:30,868 --> 00:59:34,204
and was completely free of it...
1264
00:59:34,305 --> 00:59:36,540
it had a ring of truth to it,
that I said, you know,
1265
00:59:36,640 --> 00:59:39,910
"This is not accountable
from anything in the literature,
1266
00:59:40,011 --> 00:59:41,178
except from the fact
1267
00:59:41,278 --> 00:59:42,413
that she'd been
through that experience."
1268
00:59:42,513 --> 00:59:44,715
There's no other way
I can explain it.
1269
00:59:44,815 --> 00:59:46,984
During,
I think, the lunch break,
1270
00:59:47,084 --> 00:59:48,419
somehow, it just came out--
1271
00:59:48,519 --> 00:59:50,254
although,
he didn't try to hide it,
1272
00:59:50,354 --> 00:59:54,191
but it came out
that Michelle was now his wife,
1273
00:59:54,291 --> 00:59:56,594
and that was another factor
that caused me to think,
1274
00:59:56,694 --> 00:59:58,429
"Well, that's kind of
an inappropriate," you know,
1275
00:59:58,529 --> 01:00:00,497
"doctor-patient
kind of a thing.
1276
01:00:00,598 --> 01:00:03,767
How did that affect this story
that he's now telling?"
1277
01:00:05,402 --> 01:00:08,238
I think
Michelle loved Larry.
1278
01:00:09,306 --> 01:00:11,709
She worshipped him.
1279
01:00:11,809 --> 01:00:15,946
But him and Michelle
were exact opposites,
1280
01:00:16,047 --> 01:00:17,715
and, uh...
1281
01:00:17,815 --> 01:00:24,722
I can't figure out
why Larry married her.
1282
01:00:24,822 --> 01:00:27,524
I really can't.
I-I...
1283
01:00:28,525 --> 01:00:31,295
You know,
would it come from a--
1284
01:00:31,395 --> 01:00:33,263
from needing to protect her?
1285
01:00:33,364 --> 01:00:36,333
I know he felt a need
to-to protect her
1286
01:00:36,433 --> 01:00:38,469
and look after her...
1287
01:00:38,569 --> 01:00:42,272
but marrying her
is a whole different ball game.
1288
01:00:44,942 --> 01:00:46,710
We always thought
1289
01:00:46,810 --> 01:00:51,281
there was a reason
why he had to marry her.
1290
01:00:51,382 --> 01:00:53,550
You know,
he's a psychiatrist,
1291
01:00:53,651 --> 01:00:56,320
and he crossed the line
with her.
1292
01:00:59,189 --> 01:01:02,493
And she had tied him
into that lie so tightly
1293
01:01:02,593 --> 01:01:03,927
with that book,
1294
01:01:04,029 --> 01:01:06,330
that there was
no getting out of it.
1295
01:01:07,464 --> 01:01:09,967
We're never told
that a sexual relationship
1296
01:01:10,068 --> 01:01:11,935
begins between Michelle
and the doctor
1297
01:01:12,037 --> 01:01:14,438
at any time during therapy,
1298
01:01:14,538 --> 01:01:17,274
but regardless
of what you think
1299
01:01:17,374 --> 01:01:18,976
about what did
or didn't happen
1300
01:01:19,077 --> 01:01:20,244
or what we're not being told,
1301
01:01:20,344 --> 01:01:22,413
I think you can take
what they say
1302
01:01:22,513 --> 01:01:24,281
at face value
in this regard
1303
01:01:24,381 --> 01:01:29,353
and still see
a wildly unethical relationship.
1304
01:01:32,489 --> 01:01:34,224
After they got married,
1305
01:01:34,324 --> 01:01:36,427
everything stopped.
1306
01:01:36,527 --> 01:01:38,262
She just wanted a normal life.
1307
01:01:39,430 --> 01:01:40,764
I know
that Oprah Winfrey called.
1308
01:01:40,864 --> 01:01:43,734
I was there at the house
when I picked up the phone,
1309
01:01:43,834 --> 01:01:47,404
and... and, uh, Michelle says,
"I don't want to talk to them."
1310
01:01:47,504 --> 01:01:49,206
You know, there are
thousands of men and women
1311
01:01:49,306 --> 01:01:50,507
who are secretly
worshipping the Devil.
1312
01:01:50,607 --> 01:01:51,709
The Devil!
1313
01:01:51,809 --> 01:01:53,243
If you'd like to join
that audience on Thursday
1314
01:01:53,343 --> 01:01:55,412
when we discuss Satanism,
1315
01:01:55,512 --> 01:01:57,948
call now
to reserve your seats.
1316
01:01:58,049 --> 01:01:59,416
The daily talk shows--
1317
01:01:59,516 --> 01:02:01,485
people, today,
I don't think realize
1318
01:02:01,585 --> 01:02:04,521
how pervasive
these opinions were.
1319
01:02:04,621 --> 01:02:06,124
Why, Doctor,
1320
01:02:06,223 --> 01:02:08,425
would you perform an exorcism
1321
01:02:08,525 --> 01:02:12,396
on a patient who came to you
to seek psychological help?
1322
01:02:13,497 --> 01:02:14,665
Well, because the patient
1323
01:02:14,765 --> 01:02:17,168
who was referred to me
by the State
1324
01:02:17,267 --> 01:02:19,703
was a Satanic ritual survivor.
1325
01:02:19,803 --> 01:02:21,605
At the time,
1326
01:02:21,705 --> 01:02:24,641
these talk shows would be
several times a day,
1327
01:02:24,742 --> 01:02:26,744
and they were
very well respected,
1328
01:02:26,844 --> 01:02:31,615
but they were all
feeding on the Satanic Panic.
1329
01:02:31,715 --> 01:02:34,852
Explain to us
what really did happen
1330
01:02:34,952 --> 01:02:36,453
over these 17 years.
1331
01:02:36,553 --> 01:02:38,489
They started a Satanic cult
when I was five.
1332
01:02:38,589 --> 01:02:40,290
-Who did?
-My parents.
1333
01:02:40,390 --> 01:02:42,326
They would either
kill an animal,
1334
01:02:42,426 --> 01:02:43,627
sometimes they would
kill a baby--
1335
01:02:43,727 --> 01:02:45,662
A baby?
Where would they get babies?
1336
01:02:45,763 --> 01:02:47,165
Um...
1337
01:02:47,264 --> 01:02:52,402
sometimes, people in the cult
would have them just for this--
1338
01:02:52,503 --> 01:02:54,905
...and then when it was...
1339
01:02:55,006 --> 01:02:56,340
...when it was dead,
1340
01:02:56,440 --> 01:02:59,343
then people in the group
ate parts of it.
1341
01:02:59,443 --> 01:03:01,246
Dr. LaVey said, "I'd love
1342
01:03:01,345 --> 01:03:03,514
for somebody to call them
on their bullshit,"
1343
01:03:03,614 --> 01:03:04,815
but they wouldn't do it,
1344
01:03:04,915 --> 01:03:06,750
because it wouldn't
make good television.
1345
01:03:06,850 --> 01:03:09,087
In a nutshell,
there was a lot of craziness.
1346
01:03:09,187 --> 01:03:11,555
It was a fearful time,
1347
01:03:11,655 --> 01:03:14,625
and the one big promotion of it,
1348
01:03:14,725 --> 01:03:17,728
the one really big
promotion of it,
1349
01:03:17,828 --> 01:03:20,531
was Geraldo's
three-hour program
1350
01:03:20,631 --> 01:03:23,300
about Satanic cult crime
in the United States.
1351
01:03:23,400 --> 01:03:25,469
Of course,
millions of people saw it.
1352
01:03:25,569 --> 01:03:27,805
Millions of those people
who had preconceptions
1353
01:03:27,905 --> 01:03:28,906
believed it,
1354
01:03:29,007 --> 01:03:31,142
and it caused a lot of harm.
1355
01:03:31,242 --> 01:03:32,409
These women say
1356
01:03:32,509 --> 01:03:34,012
they speakfrom personal experience.
1357
01:03:34,112 --> 01:03:35,512
They claim to be breeders,
1358
01:03:35,612 --> 01:03:38,415
forced by covensto bear children.
1359
01:03:38,515 --> 01:03:41,119
Did you give birth to infants
who were sacrificed?
1360
01:03:41,219 --> 01:03:42,352
My first two.
1361
01:03:42,452 --> 01:03:44,155
-Were sacrificed?
-Were sacrificed.
1362
01:03:44,255 --> 01:03:45,489
I was told it was
1363
01:03:45,589 --> 01:03:47,192
the highest honour
I could ever do as a woman
1364
01:03:47,292 --> 01:03:49,160
was to sacrifice
my first two.
1365
01:03:53,264 --> 01:03:54,431
There's a part of me
that wants to think
1366
01:03:54,531 --> 01:03:56,500
that these people
are just flat-out nuts--
1367
01:03:56,600 --> 01:03:57,968
and some of them are,
don't get me wrong!
1368
01:03:59,903 --> 01:04:00,771
And you look at this,
1369
01:04:00,871 --> 01:04:03,774
and you say,
"Are these people...?"
1370
01:04:03,874 --> 01:04:05,642
It is most common
1371
01:04:05,742 --> 01:04:11,216
for the heart
to be taken from the child...
1372
01:04:11,316 --> 01:04:12,783
and offered to Satan.
1373
01:04:14,551 --> 01:04:15,886
Today, a lot of people
1374
01:04:15,986 --> 01:04:19,356
think that the Satanic Panic
was sort of a joke...
1375
01:04:20,724 --> 01:04:23,294
...but a lot of conditions
were created during that time
1376
01:04:23,393 --> 01:04:25,029
for people to get
more interested
1377
01:04:25,129 --> 01:04:28,365
in the idea that
evil, bad things were going on,
1378
01:04:28,465 --> 01:04:29,900
and you know,
one of those things
1379
01:04:30,000 --> 01:04:32,002
that you could really
hang your hat on
1380
01:04:32,103 --> 01:04:33,071
was Satan.
1381
01:04:34,371 --> 01:04:36,773
And... it was dead serious.
1382
01:04:38,309 --> 01:04:40,377
The Essex CountyProsecutor's Office says
1383
01:04:40,477 --> 01:04:42,412
26-year-oldMargaret Kelly Michaels
1384
01:04:42,512 --> 01:04:44,481
is a manipulative,sadistic, child...
1385
01:04:44,581 --> 01:04:45,816
Preschool teacher Michaels
1386
01:04:45,916 --> 01:04:47,985
was convictedof molesting 19 children.
1387
01:04:48,086 --> 01:04:50,054
Molesting them in bizarre ways,
1388
01:04:50,154 --> 01:04:51,256
and in the middle
1389
01:04:51,356 --> 01:04:52,756
of this crowdedNew Jersey school
1390
01:04:52,856 --> 01:04:56,693
without any teacher or parentnoticing anything.
1391
01:04:57,594 --> 01:05:00,098
I covered
the Kelly Michaels' case
1392
01:05:00,198 --> 01:05:01,465
and I walked into that jail,
1393
01:05:01,565 --> 01:05:03,067
and it was so filthy,
1394
01:05:03,167 --> 01:05:04,269
and I interviewed her,
1395
01:05:04,369 --> 01:05:05,469
and it was terrible
1396
01:05:05,569 --> 01:05:07,804
to see this happen
to a young woman,
1397
01:05:07,905 --> 01:05:10,407
because, you know, I felt like
that could have been me.
1398
01:05:10,507 --> 01:05:11,942
I mean, I could've gone,
1399
01:05:12,043 --> 01:05:15,579
worked in a daycare centre
when I was in my early 20s.
1400
01:05:15,679 --> 01:05:20,051
It was very vicious,
what was done to her.
1401
01:05:20,151 --> 01:05:24,222
They say you inserted objects,
including LEGO blocks,
1402
01:05:24,322 --> 01:05:26,556
forks, spoons, serrated knives
1403
01:05:26,657 --> 01:05:28,992
into their anuses, vaginas--
1404
01:05:29,093 --> 01:05:30,560
And a sword, that was in--
1405
01:05:30,661 --> 01:05:31,995
-...And a sword?
-Yeah, yeah.
1406
01:05:32,096 --> 01:05:34,665
That you made children
drink your urine,
1407
01:05:34,765 --> 01:05:37,734
that you made kids
take their clothes off,
1408
01:05:37,834 --> 01:05:40,003
and licked
peanut butter off them?
1409
01:05:40,104 --> 01:05:42,373
It's very hard to believe,
1410
01:05:42,472 --> 01:05:45,742
yet the jury believed it
and not you.
1411
01:05:45,842 --> 01:05:48,478
No one is willing
to doubt a child.
1412
01:05:49,846 --> 01:05:51,748
There were people
who went to jail
1413
01:05:51,848 --> 01:05:55,219
as a consequence
of the Satanic Panic.
1414
01:05:55,320 --> 01:05:58,122
Certainly,
Michelle Remembers --
1415
01:05:59,456 --> 01:06:01,359
...all of it can't be laid
at the foot
1416
01:06:01,491 --> 01:06:03,593
of one book,
two people,
1417
01:06:03,694 --> 01:06:06,530
but they sure didn't help.
1418
01:06:06,630 --> 01:06:09,167
They did
an enormous amount of damage.
1419
01:06:09,267 --> 01:06:10,767
They ruined people's lives.
1420
01:06:10,867 --> 01:06:13,570
They cost them
enormous amounts of money.
1421
01:06:13,670 --> 01:06:16,773
They put misinformation
out there knowingly.
1422
01:06:17,874 --> 01:06:20,111
Tell as big a lie as possible
with a straight face,
1423
01:06:20,211 --> 01:06:21,645
and just keep tellin' it.
1424
01:06:21,745 --> 01:06:23,580
It works,
to a certain extent--
1425
01:06:23,680 --> 01:06:26,717
it works until those of us
who are...
1426
01:06:28,319 --> 01:06:29,586
...paying attention
1427
01:06:29,686 --> 01:06:31,456
stand up and challenge it.
1428
01:06:32,923 --> 01:06:34,524
It's a very
interesting question
1429
01:06:34,624 --> 01:06:38,296
when people talk about
where this began...
1430
01:06:39,330 --> 01:06:43,101
...and so, Dr. Pazder's ex-wife
sent me a letter.
1431
01:06:43,967 --> 01:06:45,836
She had heard my name
was out there,
1432
01:06:45,936 --> 01:06:47,838
and she knew I was
looking into all of this,
1433
01:06:47,938 --> 01:06:50,607
and she said
that she could tell me
1434
01:06:50,707 --> 01:06:52,043
and explain to me
1435
01:06:52,143 --> 01:06:55,645
how all of this evolved
and how all this came to be.
1436
01:06:57,748 --> 01:06:59,983
We didn't know
1437
01:07:00,084 --> 01:07:03,587
that people had gone to prison
because of the book...
1438
01:07:03,687 --> 01:07:07,591
and that was, I think,
about 1990 that I realized.
1439
01:07:07,691 --> 01:07:09,526
It was just a terrible shock.
1440
01:07:09,626 --> 01:07:10,927
It was just terrible.
1441
01:07:11,029 --> 01:07:14,332
We were--
It was just terrible.
1442
01:07:16,633 --> 01:07:18,369
But I felt that,
if people were in jail,
1443
01:07:18,469 --> 01:07:19,803
it's our responsibility
1444
01:07:19,903 --> 01:07:22,973
to do everything that we can
to help those people.
1445
01:07:24,075 --> 01:07:27,744
So anybody
that came to Victoria...
1446
01:07:27,844 --> 01:07:30,947
I would just help them
the best I could.
1447
01:07:33,251 --> 01:07:36,287
My mom started looking into it,
1448
01:07:36,387 --> 01:07:38,822
and she went to the house,
1449
01:07:38,922 --> 01:07:41,426
she went to the neighbours,
1450
01:07:41,526 --> 01:07:43,660
she went to the school records.
1451
01:07:44,828 --> 01:07:46,997
I went to the registry.
1452
01:07:47,098 --> 01:07:49,033
We found out
every place she lived,
1453
01:07:49,133 --> 01:07:50,268
where she was,
1454
01:07:50,368 --> 01:07:51,536
went to the neighbours,
1455
01:07:51,635 --> 01:07:54,205
and we gave that evidence
1456
01:07:54,305 --> 01:07:57,208
to the different
investigations in the States
1457
01:07:57,308 --> 01:07:58,975
and that sort of thing.
1458
01:07:59,077 --> 01:08:01,345
They were very specific claims,
1459
01:08:01,446 --> 01:08:02,513
Michelle Remembers ,
1460
01:08:02,612 --> 01:08:04,015
about a certain period of time,
1461
01:08:04,115 --> 01:08:07,418
and she named the time--
I believe it was 1955--
1462
01:08:07,518 --> 01:08:09,619
where she was gone,
1463
01:08:09,719 --> 01:08:12,190
she was held captive
by these Satanists,
1464
01:08:12,290 --> 01:08:15,126
and so we thought
it should be pretty easy,
1465
01:08:15,226 --> 01:08:17,528
you know,
to see whether we can find her
1466
01:08:17,627 --> 01:08:18,995
during that time.
1467
01:08:21,631 --> 01:08:23,101
We just went to the school...
1468
01:08:24,235 --> 01:08:27,071
...and asked them
for the yearbook.
1469
01:08:27,171 --> 01:08:30,241
They have a collection
of all the yearbooks.
1470
01:08:30,341 --> 01:08:31,775
Her picture was right there.
1471
01:08:31,875 --> 01:08:34,778
And they said the picture
was taken in the fall,
1472
01:08:34,878 --> 01:08:37,048
while she was supposed
to be locked up.
1473
01:08:37,148 --> 01:08:37,914
She wasn't.
1474
01:08:38,015 --> 01:08:40,051
Her picture was right there.
1475
01:08:40,151 --> 01:08:42,353
There she was.
1476
01:08:42,453 --> 01:08:44,255
You can't deny it.
1477
01:08:45,789 --> 01:08:47,924
Could this
possibly have happened?
1478
01:08:48,025 --> 01:08:50,027
Is there any truth
to any part of this?
1479
01:08:50,861 --> 01:08:53,930
You go, okay, you're describing
1480
01:08:54,031 --> 01:08:58,269
these rituals in which
you are severely treated.
1481
01:08:58,369 --> 01:08:59,903
They cut you up with knives
1482
01:09:00,003 --> 01:09:01,606
and they sew things
onto your body
1483
01:09:01,705 --> 01:09:02,772
that are ripped off,
1484
01:09:02,873 --> 01:09:04,242
and they knock out your teeth,
1485
01:09:04,342 --> 01:09:05,709
and they do all these things...
1486
01:09:05,809 --> 01:09:08,379
...and then...
1487
01:09:08,479 --> 01:09:10,047
miraculously,
1488
01:09:10,148 --> 01:09:12,849
the Angel Michael comes
and takes all your scars away?
1489
01:09:14,385 --> 01:09:16,621
This is ridiculous, you know?
1490
01:09:16,720 --> 01:09:18,055
I mean...
1491
01:09:18,156 --> 01:09:20,391
the Virgin Mary appears
and speaks to you in French.
1492
01:09:20,491 --> 01:09:22,059
What?
1493
01:09:23,094 --> 01:09:24,861
"Ma Mรจre"is really the Virgin Mary?
1494
01:09:24,961 --> 01:09:27,131
-Yes, the Virgin Mary.-She spoke in French?
1495
01:09:31,902 --> 01:09:33,003
Well, throughout
the experience--
1496
01:09:36,240 --> 01:09:38,309
I remember hearing my sister
1497
01:09:38,409 --> 01:09:40,011
on the radio broadcast,
1498
01:09:40,111 --> 01:09:42,413
and she said, "Oh, but I--
I never knew French."
1499
01:09:42,513 --> 01:09:43,780
I was like, "Yes, you did.
1500
01:09:43,880 --> 01:09:46,450
You took it in high school,
for one thing,
1501
01:09:46,551 --> 01:09:49,187
and you won an award for it,
because you were so good."
1502
01:09:49,287 --> 01:09:51,422
Plus, my grandfather
spoke fluent French
1503
01:09:51,522 --> 01:09:52,889
and she used to converse
with him,
1504
01:09:52,989 --> 01:09:54,891
and she said, "I've never spoken
French ever in my life,
1505
01:09:54,991 --> 01:09:57,195
and it just poured out of me."
1506
01:09:57,295 --> 01:09:59,896
You know, just like
the lies poured out of her.
1507
01:10:01,265 --> 01:10:03,301
There's just
a variety of things
1508
01:10:03,401 --> 01:10:05,636
that can go on
in therapy
1509
01:10:05,735 --> 01:10:07,737
that we now know
1510
01:10:07,837 --> 01:10:10,441
can lead people
to false memories.
1511
01:10:10,541 --> 01:10:13,578
Guided imagination is one.
1512
01:10:13,678 --> 01:10:15,613
Using hypnosis
is another one.
1513
01:10:15,712 --> 01:10:18,516
Particular kinds
of dream interpretation
1514
01:10:18,616 --> 01:10:20,717
can lead people
to false memories.
1515
01:10:20,817 --> 01:10:23,487
Suggesting things
to the patient.
1516
01:10:23,588 --> 01:10:25,089
Reinforcing the patient
1517
01:10:25,189 --> 01:10:28,426
with, you know,
attention and interest
1518
01:10:28,526 --> 01:10:30,461
and other kinds of rewards
1519
01:10:30,561 --> 01:10:32,762
when the patient remembers
1520
01:10:32,862 --> 01:10:35,666
what the therapist
wants the patient to remember,
1521
01:10:35,765 --> 01:10:39,303
and sometimes,
the more lurid, the better,
1522
01:10:39,403 --> 01:10:44,075
in terms of producing a reward
for that patient.
1523
01:10:46,110 --> 01:10:49,113
The Michelle Remembers story
1524
01:10:49,213 --> 01:10:54,518
does seem to be a case
that has all these ingredients
1525
01:10:54,619 --> 01:10:56,621
that are known
to lead people
1526
01:10:56,721 --> 01:10:57,887
to think they have
1527
01:10:57,988 --> 01:10:59,624
repressed memories
they've recovered,
1528
01:10:59,724 --> 01:11:01,925
but then there's
this weird little thing
1529
01:11:02,026 --> 01:11:04,328
about how they get married.
1530
01:11:04,428 --> 01:11:07,365
So, um...
1531
01:11:07,465 --> 01:11:08,798
I-I don't know what to think
1532
01:11:08,898 --> 01:11:12,470
about the sexual,
romantic element.
1533
01:11:12,570 --> 01:11:14,871
That-That's a little different
1534
01:11:14,971 --> 01:11:18,476
than what you see in the typical
repressed memory case,
1535
01:11:18,576 --> 01:11:20,877
but that could mean
1536
01:11:20,977 --> 01:11:25,349
there was even greater interest
on her part
1537
01:11:25,449 --> 01:11:28,419
to do whatever she presumed
1538
01:11:28,519 --> 01:11:33,024
her romantic interest
would like to be done.
1539
01:11:36,060 --> 01:11:37,695
In the book,
1540
01:11:37,794 --> 01:11:40,464
very, very often
what is happening
1541
01:11:40,564 --> 01:11:42,233
is she's telling a story
1542
01:11:42,333 --> 01:11:44,168
and then Lawrence
is interpreting it
1543
01:11:44,268 --> 01:11:47,171
in terms of his experiences
in West Africa,
1544
01:11:47,271 --> 01:11:48,139
where he did
1545
01:11:48,239 --> 01:11:50,508
medical missionary work
for a while,
1546
01:11:50,608 --> 01:11:53,744
and he keeps mentioning that
this is like those practices.
1547
01:11:55,613 --> 01:11:59,417
We know that he witnessed
some tribal ceremonies,
1548
01:11:59,517 --> 01:12:03,020
he filmed them...
1549
01:12:03,120 --> 01:12:04,588
but you look at it
and you go,
1550
01:12:04,689 --> 01:12:06,057
"Okay, I believe you saw this,
but I don't believe
1551
01:12:06,157 --> 01:12:08,125
you understood
what you were looking at,"
1552
01:12:08,225 --> 01:12:11,895
but she has
grabbed pieces of it
1553
01:12:11,995 --> 01:12:13,764
and is pulling
this information out of it
1554
01:12:13,863 --> 01:12:15,399
and incorporating it
into her story
1555
01:12:15,499 --> 01:12:17,635
so that he can recognize it,
1556
01:12:17,735 --> 01:12:19,437
and then try
and make the connection,
1557
01:12:19,537 --> 01:12:23,274
and, like, put this--
this story together,
1558
01:12:23,374 --> 01:12:25,109
this false story
of these memories.
1559
01:12:26,843 --> 01:12:29,246
You know, people see
what they want to see.
1560
01:12:29,347 --> 01:12:30,581
I mean...
1561
01:12:30,681 --> 01:12:33,351
he's very Catholic,
so what does he want to see?
1562
01:12:33,451 --> 01:12:36,187
He wants to see angels.
He wants to see demons.
1563
01:12:36,287 --> 01:12:39,190
He wants to see
that sort of stuff.
1564
01:12:40,324 --> 01:12:41,692
This book features
1565
01:12:41,792 --> 01:12:44,894
an extraordinary number
of dead babies.
1566
01:12:44,994 --> 01:12:46,263
By the end,
1567
01:12:46,364 --> 01:12:48,632
it's just
a baby slaughterhouse,
1568
01:12:48,733 --> 01:12:50,634
and...
1569
01:12:50,735 --> 01:12:53,804
if your patient
starts seeing you again
1570
01:12:53,903 --> 01:12:56,073
because they're feeling
extreme grief
1571
01:12:56,173 --> 01:12:57,907
over a miscarriage,
1572
01:12:58,008 --> 01:13:00,478
and if they are telling you
1573
01:13:00,578 --> 01:13:03,647
again and again these stories
about dead babies,
1574
01:13:03,748 --> 01:13:06,117
I would imagine
that this patient
1575
01:13:06,217 --> 01:13:09,120
could be feeling
incredible, unresolved guilt
1576
01:13:09,220 --> 01:13:10,920
about the miscarriage.
1577
01:13:13,090 --> 01:13:16,460
But Dr. Pazder is Catholic...
1578
01:13:17,927 --> 01:13:20,030
...and so he decides
1579
01:13:20,131 --> 01:13:24,901
that whatever Satanic image
appears to Michelle
1580
01:13:25,001 --> 01:13:26,237
connects to something
1581
01:13:26,337 --> 01:13:30,541
that literally, physically
happened to her...
1582
01:13:30,641 --> 01:13:32,076
and I think
1583
01:13:32,176 --> 01:13:35,513
one of the things that stories
about demonic possession,
1584
01:13:35,613 --> 01:13:37,681
stories about Satanism
1585
01:13:37,782 --> 01:13:39,116
tell us,
1586
01:13:39,216 --> 01:13:41,585
is that there's a very clear
answer for all of this,
1587
01:13:41,685 --> 01:13:43,120
and it's God.
1588
01:13:45,089 --> 01:13:46,657
My dad was convinced
1589
01:13:46,757 --> 01:13:50,227
that this was
a really big thing.
1590
01:13:50,327 --> 01:13:52,163
I really think
he thought he was on
1591
01:13:52,263 --> 01:13:53,697
some kind of mission
from God.
1592
01:13:55,733 --> 01:13:58,569
And I lost my faith completely.
1593
01:13:58,669 --> 01:14:01,172
Like, I saw the Church
as being a part of it.
1594
01:14:01,272 --> 01:14:04,809
The Church is, you know,
drinking this in,
1595
01:14:04,909 --> 01:14:06,644
and encouraging it.
1596
01:14:08,045 --> 01:14:09,713
We found some documentation
1597
01:14:09,814 --> 01:14:12,216
about the fact that the book
1598
01:14:12,316 --> 01:14:15,085
was actually subsidized
by the local Catholic church.
1599
01:14:15,186 --> 01:14:16,854
Whether that was
a local project
1600
01:14:16,953 --> 01:14:19,256
or whether it went beyond local,
I don't know...
1601
01:14:19,356 --> 01:14:22,893
but it certainly,
you know, seemed like
1602
01:14:23,027 --> 01:14:24,829
it was a inspirational book
for Catholics--
1603
01:14:24,929 --> 01:14:26,597
Michelle Remembers --
1604
01:14:26,697 --> 01:14:28,232
and to the point where
1605
01:14:28,332 --> 01:14:31,068
the Church
was willing to subsidize it.
1606
01:14:42,246 --> 01:14:44,148
I don't have a problem
with Christianity--
1607
01:14:44,248 --> 01:14:45,549
I have a problem
with Church-ianity.
1608
01:14:45,649 --> 01:14:46,817
It's a business.
1609
01:14:46,917 --> 01:14:48,586
They're making money, right?
1610
01:14:48,686 --> 01:14:52,022
It's got nothing to do
with being devout.
1611
01:14:53,624 --> 01:14:56,460
Most of the people involved
in putting this out there,
1612
01:14:56,560 --> 01:14:58,995
they actually are interested
in three things--
1613
01:14:59,096 --> 01:15:01,866
power, influence,
and money...
1614
01:15:02,900 --> 01:15:05,236
...and they realize this is
a way that they can get it.
1615
01:15:05,336 --> 01:15:07,304
"I know that I can
use this information
1616
01:15:07,404 --> 01:15:08,739
to make you fearful
and pay me money.
1617
01:15:08,839 --> 01:15:10,341
I don't care that it's a lie.
1618
01:15:10,441 --> 01:15:12,076
I know it's a lie,
but it's not important.
1619
01:15:12,176 --> 01:15:14,478
I need your money.
I'm gonna get it.
1620
01:15:14,578 --> 01:15:16,013
I need your attention.
I want to get it.
1621
01:15:16,113 --> 01:15:19,116
I need power over people.
1622
01:15:19,216 --> 01:15:20,985
You will give it to me,
1623
01:15:21,085 --> 01:15:23,354
because you'll see me
as your saviour." Okay?
1624
01:15:23,454 --> 01:15:26,190
Over and over and over again.
1625
01:15:29,326 --> 01:15:30,628
"Ironic," I guess,
1626
01:15:30,728 --> 01:15:32,930
is the word
that some people would use.
1627
01:15:33,030 --> 01:15:34,999
But I've been involved
in many, many cases
1628
01:15:35,099 --> 01:15:38,102
involving Catholic priests
who are molesting kids,
1629
01:15:38,202 --> 01:15:39,670
and yet,
I've had people tell me--
1630
01:15:39,770 --> 01:15:41,105
devout Catholics say,
1631
01:15:41,205 --> 01:15:42,773
"Yes, you know these priests
who are molesting kids?
1632
01:15:42,873 --> 01:15:43,741
You know who they are?"
1633
01:15:43,841 --> 01:15:45,010
I said, "Who are they?"
1634
01:15:45,109 --> 01:15:46,644
"They are Satanists
1635
01:15:46,744 --> 01:15:48,846
who have infiltrated
the Catholic Church
1636
01:15:48,946 --> 01:15:50,247
to destroy it."
1637
01:15:50,347 --> 01:15:52,650
Okay.
1638
01:16:00,491 --> 01:16:03,994
As the Satanic Panic
wound down,
1639
01:16:04,094 --> 01:16:06,597
like, around '91, '92,
1640
01:16:06,697 --> 01:16:09,366
a lot of it had to do
with insurance companies,
1641
01:16:09,466 --> 01:16:12,536
because the therapists
and psychiatrists
1642
01:16:12,636 --> 01:16:13,537
and psychologists,
1643
01:16:13,637 --> 01:16:14,605
they were being paid,
1644
01:16:14,705 --> 01:16:17,141
sometimes covered
by insurance companies,
1645
01:16:17,241 --> 01:16:19,276
for these--
for this endless counselling,
1646
01:16:19,376 --> 01:16:22,013
and the insurance companies
started investigating.
1647
01:16:22,112 --> 01:16:24,114
They said,
"We're not gonna pay anymore."
1648
01:16:25,215 --> 01:16:26,517
Some of these patients
1649
01:16:26,617 --> 01:16:30,187
began to realize
their memories were false
1650
01:16:30,287 --> 01:16:34,825
and that they had been planted
by the psychotherapy.
1651
01:16:34,925 --> 01:16:36,727
Some of them
sued their therapists
1652
01:16:36,827 --> 01:16:38,162
for planting false memories,
1653
01:16:38,262 --> 01:16:42,067
and they ended up
with these huge settlements.
1654
01:16:42,166 --> 01:16:45,302
I could not stand...
1655
01:16:45,402 --> 01:16:47,371
what was happening
to my brain,
1656
01:16:47,471 --> 01:16:49,074
and the memories,
and the thoughts,
1657
01:16:49,173 --> 01:16:50,574
and the pictures.
1658
01:16:50,674 --> 01:16:52,142
Although Dr. Hosen claimed
1659
01:16:52,242 --> 01:16:54,012
that he did nothing wrong,
1660
01:16:54,111 --> 01:16:55,479
his insurance companysettled
1661
01:16:55,579 --> 01:16:59,216
and they paidNadine Gould $2.4 million.
1662
01:16:59,316 --> 01:17:01,585
I didn't even know...
1663
01:17:01,685 --> 01:17:04,588
that this doctor was a fraud
until recently.
1664
01:17:04,688 --> 01:17:06,690
And it didn't happen
to just us.
1665
01:17:06,790 --> 01:17:08,959
It happened to our children,
1666
01:17:09,060 --> 01:17:10,260
our significant others,
1667
01:17:10,361 --> 01:17:13,564
our spouses or ex-spouses,
to our family.
1668
01:17:13,664 --> 01:17:16,767
The issue is that counsellors
and therapists
1669
01:17:16,867 --> 01:17:18,135
are leading people astray
1670
01:17:18,235 --> 01:17:19,603
and destroying families.
1671
01:17:19,703 --> 01:17:21,672
We need laws.
We need things changed.
1672
01:17:21,772 --> 01:17:25,010
They need to be made accountable
for what they're doing.
1673
01:17:25,110 --> 01:17:26,011
Also, things got laughable.
1674
01:17:27,578 --> 01:17:30,414
There was the Church Lady
from Saturday Night Live.
1675
01:17:30,514 --> 01:17:32,182
Who could it be?
Oh, I don't know...
1676
01:17:34,085 --> 01:17:35,653
...Satan?
1677
01:17:35,753 --> 01:17:38,722
All of this has to do
with the changing zeitgeist,
1678
01:17:38,822 --> 01:17:40,491
and people understood then
1679
01:17:40,591 --> 01:17:43,560
that this was all pretty--
pretty absurd and out-there.
1680
01:17:45,362 --> 01:17:48,432
A bunch of people
were falsely prosecuted.
1681
01:17:48,532 --> 01:17:53,404
They wasted millions of dollars,
police chasing after ghosts.
1682
01:17:53,504 --> 01:17:55,406
All right.
We are ready for the jury.
1683
01:17:55,506 --> 01:17:57,541
Raymond Buckeyand his mother, Peggy,
1684
01:17:57,641 --> 01:18:00,244
were the only McMartindefendants to stand trial.
1685
01:18:00,344 --> 01:18:02,279
We, the jury,
in the above entitled action
1686
01:18:02,379 --> 01:18:05,050
find the varied defendants
1687
01:18:05,150 --> 01:18:07,118
not guilty.
1688
01:18:07,217 --> 01:18:08,686
Preschoolteacher Michaels served
1689
01:18:08,786 --> 01:18:10,521
five years in jailuntil this year,
1690
01:18:10,621 --> 01:18:11,855
when her convictionwas overturned
1691
01:18:11,955 --> 01:18:13,457
by an appeals court
1692
01:18:13,557 --> 01:18:16,493
that questioned the reliabilityof the children's testimony.
1693
01:18:16,593 --> 01:18:19,030
Childhood sexual abuse
does happen,
1694
01:18:19,130 --> 01:18:20,964
but there
is something else going on,
1695
01:18:21,066 --> 01:18:22,533
and that is whether
some therapists
1696
01:18:22,633 --> 01:18:24,368
are actually
encouraging individuals
1697
01:18:24,468 --> 01:18:26,804
to believe in abuse
that didn't happen.
1698
01:18:28,639 --> 01:18:31,675
A lot of these things
simply didn't happen.
1699
01:18:38,582 --> 01:18:40,851
But the thing
that really scares me
1700
01:18:40,951 --> 01:18:42,686
is that, as people say,
1701
01:18:42,786 --> 01:18:45,389
if you don't study history,
you are doomed to repeat it.
1702
01:18:45,489 --> 01:18:47,324
We're notcovering Pizzagate enough
1703
01:18:47,424 --> 01:18:50,561
to expose the Satanism
and the occult.
1704
01:18:50,661 --> 01:18:53,064
We have
these strange allegations now
1705
01:18:53,164 --> 01:18:54,264
of "Pizzagate"
and things like QAnon--
1706
01:18:54,364 --> 01:18:56,400
the idea that thousands
and thousands
1707
01:18:56,500 --> 01:18:59,104
and thousands of babies
are missing, you know?
1708
01:18:59,204 --> 01:19:00,604
It's all sort
of coming up again.
1709
01:19:00,704 --> 01:19:01,638
QAnon...
1710
01:19:01,739 --> 01:19:02,706
with its claim
1711
01:19:02,806 --> 01:19:05,176
that "Satan-worshiping
pedophile elites"
1712
01:19:05,275 --> 01:19:06,610
are running our lives.
1713
01:19:06,710 --> 01:19:08,812
"Oh, boy.
Here we go again."
1714
01:19:08,912 --> 01:19:10,447
I mean, that--
that's exactly what I thought.
1715
01:19:10,547 --> 01:19:12,616
"Oh, no, not again."
1716
01:19:12,716 --> 01:19:15,953
Man showed up atthat pizza parlour with a gun
1717
01:19:16,054 --> 01:19:17,122
demanding to know more,
1718
01:19:17,222 --> 01:19:18,489
and now this has become
1719
01:19:18,589 --> 01:19:21,892
the centre of a national debateover fake news.
1720
01:19:21,992 --> 01:19:23,228
I came to realize
1721
01:19:23,360 --> 01:19:26,730
this story is one of
the most relevant topics
1722
01:19:26,830 --> 01:19:29,299
that you could ever talk about
in today's world--
1723
01:19:29,399 --> 01:19:30,434
it's just not about
1724
01:19:30,534 --> 01:19:32,103
Satanic ritual abuse
of children,
1725
01:19:32,203 --> 01:19:33,804
but this problem
1726
01:19:33,904 --> 01:19:35,639
of what people believe
1727
01:19:35,739 --> 01:19:39,676
when there's no real objective,
professional evidence of it,
1728
01:19:39,777 --> 01:19:41,745
is an amazing thing
to behold.
1729
01:19:41,845 --> 01:19:43,413
It's not going to go away.
1730
01:19:43,514 --> 01:19:44,615
I used to think it was.
1731
01:19:44,715 --> 01:19:45,783
I used to think,
1732
01:19:45,883 --> 01:19:47,018
"Well, all you have to do
is debunk the stuff
1733
01:19:47,118 --> 01:19:48,219
in a rational way,
1734
01:19:48,318 --> 01:19:49,987
and I'll just
be a good journalist,
1735
01:19:50,088 --> 01:19:51,488
and I'll do that,"
you know?
1736
01:19:51,588 --> 01:19:55,793
And, uh...
it just happens again.
1737
01:19:55,893 --> 01:19:57,528
This has been kind of difficult
for me,
1738
01:19:57,628 --> 01:19:59,197
to tell you the truth,
1739
01:19:59,296 --> 01:20:01,999
to see that none of that stuff
really mattered.
1740
01:20:02,100 --> 01:20:03,433
None of what we did
1741
01:20:03,534 --> 01:20:05,536
really seems to have made
much of a difference.
1742
01:20:08,438 --> 01:20:12,676
We had to deal
with the "Bride of Satan".
1743
01:20:12,776 --> 01:20:15,679
All the time--
we had to deal with her.
1744
01:20:15,779 --> 01:20:19,184
And we had to live
under the shadow of that book.
1745
01:20:19,284 --> 01:20:21,019
We had to live
under the shadow of her.
1746
01:20:23,188 --> 01:20:25,856
Once they married,
you know...
1747
01:20:25,956 --> 01:20:28,293
we couldn't get
close to him anymore.
1748
01:20:28,392 --> 01:20:29,893
It was really hard,
1749
01:20:29,993 --> 01:20:32,263
and I think that's why
I really made an effort--
1750
01:20:32,362 --> 01:20:33,664
"I'm gonna call you
every Sunday."
1751
01:20:33,764 --> 01:20:36,134
I really, really
pushed for that.
1752
01:20:36,234 --> 01:20:37,401
During that time,
1753
01:20:37,501 --> 01:20:40,437
the phone calls
started changing a lot.
1754
01:20:41,705 --> 01:20:45,243
He was kind of
pulling away from her...
1755
01:20:45,342 --> 01:20:47,078
and I think
1756
01:20:47,178 --> 01:20:50,248
there was things coming up,
like, different things
1757
01:20:50,347 --> 01:20:52,482
that made me realize...
1758
01:20:53,517 --> 01:20:56,520
...that, you know,
that he was coming around.
1759
01:20:56,620 --> 01:20:59,324
You know, he had said,
you know,
1760
01:20:59,423 --> 01:21:01,525
"What if it weren't true?"
1761
01:21:04,628 --> 01:21:06,530
I was at work.
1762
01:21:06,630 --> 01:21:08,565
My sister, Tertia,
came up to my office
1763
01:21:08,665 --> 01:21:11,102
and she goes,
"Larry's dead."
1764
01:21:12,369 --> 01:21:14,205
And I was in shock.
I was just, like...
1765
01:21:14,305 --> 01:21:15,539
I said, "What happened?"
1766
01:21:15,639 --> 01:21:17,641
She said, "He got up,
went to the bathroom,
1767
01:21:17,741 --> 01:21:19,776
and fell."
1768
01:21:19,877 --> 01:21:22,479
Apparently, the ambulance
took a long time to get there,
1769
01:21:22,579 --> 01:21:23,747
but he was dead anyways.
1770
01:21:23,847 --> 01:21:26,550
He had a massive heart attack,
they said.
1771
01:21:28,552 --> 01:21:30,188
Michelle discovered
1772
01:21:30,288 --> 01:21:35,459
that he'd kept all his pictures
from his marriage to Marylyn.
1773
01:21:36,660 --> 01:21:39,297
Michelle was really upset
about that one,
1774
01:21:39,396 --> 01:21:43,467
and she said that, "He was not
the man I thought I married."
1775
01:21:45,402 --> 01:21:46,737
I went to the funeral
1776
01:21:46,837 --> 01:21:48,373
and I connected with Michelle
1777
01:21:48,472 --> 01:21:50,674
and I stayed with her
for a few days,
1778
01:21:50,774 --> 01:21:52,943
and then,
when I was leaving,
1779
01:21:53,044 --> 01:21:56,480
this little deer came
around the side of the house,
1780
01:21:56,580 --> 01:21:58,383
and it just stood there
and looked at me,
1781
01:21:58,482 --> 01:21:59,750
and it was weird.
1782
01:21:59,850 --> 01:22:01,919
I felt like it had
something to do with Larry,
1783
01:22:02,020 --> 01:22:03,453
like-- ah,
it's breaking me up right now--
1784
01:22:03,553 --> 01:22:05,522
and, um...
1785
01:22:05,622 --> 01:22:07,591
I don't know,
I just felt like it was Larry,
1786
01:22:07,691 --> 01:22:10,228
you know,
standing there.
1787
01:22:11,428 --> 01:22:15,400
I felt like he was asking me
to look out for Michelle...
1788
01:22:15,499 --> 01:22:16,967
so I did.
1789
01:22:17,068 --> 01:22:20,104
I said that to myself,
that I would look out for her,
1790
01:22:20,204 --> 01:22:22,307
for him,
1791
01:22:22,407 --> 01:22:24,409
and I've kept that promise.
1792
01:22:31,615 --> 01:22:33,684
She's a good person.
1793
01:22:33,784 --> 01:22:36,820
She had her life ruined,
1794
01:22:36,920 --> 01:22:40,391
first, by whatever experience
she did go through--
1795
01:22:40,490 --> 01:22:43,227
I am convinced
1796
01:22:43,328 --> 01:22:46,264
it's not mismemory
or false memory,
1797
01:22:46,364 --> 01:22:49,400
and then, the book,
you know?
1798
01:22:49,499 --> 01:22:50,435
It's ruined her life.
1799
01:22:50,534 --> 01:22:52,036
She hates the book,
1800
01:22:52,136 --> 01:22:55,472
because when people see her,
that's all they see.
1801
01:22:55,572 --> 01:22:58,076
And if anybody
should have blame,
1802
01:22:58,176 --> 01:22:59,776
as much as I loved Larry,
1803
01:22:59,876 --> 01:23:01,578
and I'm not even big on men,
1804
01:23:01,678 --> 01:23:05,316
but I loved Larry,
and he...
1805
01:23:05,416 --> 01:23:10,754
I think, was responsible
for the book.
1806
01:23:12,723 --> 01:23:14,624
I believe in the pain
1807
01:23:14,725 --> 01:23:16,427
that they experienced
as a child,
1808
01:23:16,526 --> 01:23:19,330
the details
of what they present.
1809
01:23:19,430 --> 01:23:20,831
I'm not there
to believe or not believe.
1810
01:23:20,931 --> 01:23:22,766
I'm there to try
and understand
1811
01:23:22,866 --> 01:23:25,936
what they're trying to tell me
of an experience,
1812
01:23:26,037 --> 01:23:28,538
and those experiences
are not simple to separate
1813
01:23:28,638 --> 01:23:31,009
from whether that has
actually happened to them
1814
01:23:31,109 --> 01:23:32,943
or that is their way
of trying to express
1815
01:23:33,044 --> 01:23:34,845
a profound pain
that they've experienced
1816
01:23:34,945 --> 01:23:37,248
beyond their body,
in their very heart,
1817
01:23:37,348 --> 01:23:38,982
in their very soul.
1818
01:23:44,489 --> 01:23:46,324
I always hung on
1819
01:23:46,424 --> 01:23:50,028
to that dad
that I grew up with...
1820
01:23:50,128 --> 01:23:52,529
and I think that's what
made it hurt so much,
1821
01:23:52,629 --> 01:23:53,630
is that you hang on to it.
1822
01:23:53,730 --> 01:23:55,932
You really love.
1823
01:23:58,436 --> 01:24:01,172
But he did
take her out of my life,
1824
01:24:01,272 --> 01:24:05,076
and that was the only good thing
about his death.
1825
01:24:05,176 --> 01:24:07,378
You know?
I-I, um...
1826
01:24:07,478 --> 01:24:08,712
It was...
1827
01:24:08,812 --> 01:24:10,381
really good to have her gone.
1828
01:24:10,481 --> 01:24:12,083
It was, um...
1829
01:24:12,183 --> 01:24:14,452
I think that's when
I started to feel
1830
01:24:14,551 --> 01:24:18,189
that that whole chapter
was over.
1831
01:24:18,289 --> 01:24:19,323
It wasn't one chapter.
1832
01:24:19,424 --> 01:24:22,093
It was a book.
Literally.
1833
01:24:23,827 --> 01:24:27,398
It was more than
any type of an affair.
1834
01:24:27,498 --> 01:24:28,899
Far more than that.
1835
01:24:28,999 --> 01:24:31,269
They were both obsessed
with each other...
1836
01:24:32,803 --> 01:24:36,474
...and she was
in love with my husband.
1837
01:24:36,573 --> 01:24:42,080
And maybe she saw our happiness
and she wanted it for herself.
1838
01:24:42,180 --> 01:24:44,348
But you see, you can't
get that for yourself,
1839
01:24:44,449 --> 01:24:48,252
because it doesn't belong to,
and it never will be yours,
1840
01:24:48,352 --> 01:24:52,090
because you-- if you try to take
somebody else's happiness away,
1841
01:24:52,190 --> 01:24:54,791
everybody's going to be unhappy
all the way around,
1842
01:24:54,891 --> 01:24:58,162
because it's not yours
to be had.
1843
01:24:59,297 --> 01:25:03,534
You make your own Heaven or Hell
right here on this Earth.
1844
01:25:08,004 --> 01:25:10,740
I think
she's living in hell...
1845
01:25:11,808 --> 01:25:16,013
...because the story has haunted
my family for years.
1846
01:25:16,114 --> 01:25:18,615
We could pretend
that we're a family,
1847
01:25:18,715 --> 01:25:21,452
but there's always
that feeling of,
1848
01:25:21,552 --> 01:25:23,387
"How could you do the damage
that you did
1849
01:25:23,488 --> 01:25:25,889
by telling a story
that wasn't true?"
1850
01:25:27,592 --> 01:25:29,293
If she came along
and said to us,
1851
01:25:29,393 --> 01:25:32,196
"Hey, I made it all up.
I'm sorry," you know?
1852
01:25:32,296 --> 01:25:34,865
Then we would understand,
but she hasn't.
1853
01:25:34,965 --> 01:25:36,467
She's never apologized.
1854
01:25:36,567 --> 01:25:38,336
She's never, you know...
1855
01:25:38,436 --> 01:25:39,769
Nothing.
1856
01:25:41,272 --> 01:25:43,274
Whether she made it up
1857
01:25:43,374 --> 01:25:47,078
or whether Larry and her
made it up together,
1858
01:25:47,178 --> 01:25:49,614
I don't know...
1859
01:25:49,713 --> 01:25:51,282
but she was able to do it.
1860
01:25:51,382 --> 01:25:52,649
You know,
she had a motive.
1861
01:25:52,749 --> 01:25:53,917
Her motive was
1862
01:25:54,018 --> 01:25:57,121
that she wanted Larry
as her husband.
141967
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