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This programme contains some scenes
which some viewers may find upsetting.
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I was absolutely terrified
to go beyond this gate. Mm-hmm.
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Do you remember the church?
4
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Mm-nm. I just remember
the baby headstones.
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Yeah.
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Well, it was a nice church.
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It still looks the same,
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even though it's not there any more.
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Everything looks exactly how it did.
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I miss it.
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SHE SOBS
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TEARFULLY: Half of my family
is dead because of this.
13
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And to think about all the pain
that they went through...
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SIREN WAILS
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RADIO CHATTER
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00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:11,840
NEWSREADER: There's a major story
developing at a religious commune
17
00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:13,590
just outside of Waco.
18
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There are believed to be some
75 members of a religious sect,
19
00:02:16,890 --> 00:02:19,390
known as the Branch Davidians
living at the commune.
20
00:02:19,390 --> 00:02:24,090
It's a very ugly situation,
almost a warlike zone going on here.
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RAPID GUNFIRE, SCREAMING
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You can hear people getting shot,
people screaming,
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you can hear their kids.
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I figured, it's possible
we might all die today.
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GUNSHOTS, SHOUTING
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00:02:46,470 --> 00:02:49,970
All I knew about the Branch
Davidians is that they were led
27
00:02:49,970 --> 00:02:53,090
by an individual by the name of
David Koresh.
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You mean, God in heaven
has a book called truth?
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A book that no man can reveal
but who himself?
30
00:03:02,090 --> 00:03:07,010
We believed that David
was an incarnation of God.
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He danced around so fast
that you were bewildered,
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beguiled, mesmerised,
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at the knowledge he had, you see?
34
00:03:17,470 --> 00:03:19,760
He was so believable.
35
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It was just like God being there.
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00:03:23,970 --> 00:03:26,260
He was a con man.
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He had a Bible in one hand
and a machinegun in the other.
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00:03:34,340 --> 00:03:39,640
It was the highest honour
to be taken as God's wife.
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00:03:41,300 --> 00:03:45,140
You start thinking,
is he really a prophet?
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Are we a cult?
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00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:49,340
SIRENS BLARE
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CAMERA SHUTTERS CLICK, SHOUTING
43
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Stop, stop, stop.
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00:03:55,470 --> 00:03:59,510
David Koresh is dangerous,
irrational and probably insane.
45
00:04:01,090 --> 00:04:03,590
We've got this sociopathic
cult leader,
46
00:04:03,590 --> 00:04:06,510
and a 51-day stand-off.
47
00:04:07,970 --> 00:04:10,510
We need to cut the head
off the snake.
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VOICE OF DAVID KORESH:
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At this point, we're saying
come out with your hands up,
50
00:04:22,090 --> 00:04:23,590
this matter is over.
51
00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:26,390
CRASH
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00:04:27,470 --> 00:04:30,720
Who else was 33 years of age
53
00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:35,590
when he was executed based upon
his religious beliefs?
54
00:04:35,590 --> 00:04:37,890
Jesus Christ.
55
00:04:37,890 --> 00:04:40,220
Want to see one of the holes here?
56
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It's kind of painful.
57
00:04:43,590 --> 00:04:46,260
Oh, it ain't nothing,
to a tough guy like me!
58
00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:51,340
I think David Koresh knew
what God was asking of him.
59
00:04:53,260 --> 00:04:54,840
But he was willing to do it.
60
00:04:56,010 --> 00:04:58,720
He was willing to die
for you and me.
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00:05:37,340 --> 00:05:40,090
We believed that the end
of the world was going to come
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00:05:40,090 --> 00:05:43,220
and we were going to be
some of the first chosen.
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00:05:44,890 --> 00:05:48,720
And so that's why my parents
moved to Mount Carmel,
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00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:52,050
and became Branch Davidians.
65
00:05:55,840 --> 00:05:58,590
They used to have a fence,
66
00:05:58,590 --> 00:06:02,010
and we had horses in here,
67
00:06:02,010 --> 00:06:04,010
we had a barn.
68
00:06:04,010 --> 00:06:07,890
You know, we had the administration
building right over there.
69
00:06:07,890 --> 00:06:09,840
That's where Daddy and I
got married.
70
00:06:18,010 --> 00:06:20,510
We moved there when I was eight.
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00:06:20,510 --> 00:06:24,470
I remember when we first got there
it was, of course, very strange.
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00:06:26,090 --> 00:06:29,510
We had to wear tops
that came down, you know,
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00:06:29,510 --> 00:06:32,050
in between our thigh and our knee,
74
00:06:32,050 --> 00:06:35,930
so that when we bent
over in the garden,
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00:06:35,930 --> 00:06:37,800
the boys couldn't see our bottoms.
76
00:06:39,930 --> 00:06:44,340
I lived in a house with my mom
77
00:06:44,340 --> 00:06:47,390
and my dad and my two brothers,
78
00:06:47,390 --> 00:06:51,550
and my grandpa and my grandma.
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00:06:51,550 --> 00:06:55,470
It was like, we didn't have
to worry about anybody else
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00:06:55,470 --> 00:06:58,010
outside of Mount Carmel.
It was safe.
81
00:07:00,970 --> 00:07:04,470
When I was 18,
I went on a quest for the truth.
82
00:07:05,840 --> 00:07:08,800
At that time, I was doing
a lot of marijuana,
83
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but I was not happy, inside.
84
00:07:12,970 --> 00:07:15,090
And then when I came here
to Mount Carmel,
85
00:07:15,090 --> 00:07:19,050
I just felt that I'm in the right
place at the right time.
86
00:07:19,050 --> 00:07:21,340
But some of the buildings
were in shambles,
87
00:07:21,340 --> 00:07:23,470
it wasn't the perfect place.
88
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We called it boot camp.
89
00:07:28,260 --> 00:07:32,050
Because you were here to have self
booted out of your system.
90
00:07:33,300 --> 00:07:38,050
So you really had to have a love
for the truth that you were hearing.
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00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:41,340
CLAP OF THUNDER
92
00:07:47,300 --> 00:07:51,010
We were taught that the end
was coming soon.
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And that we would never
have to grow up, get married,
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00:07:54,890 --> 00:07:57,970
have kids, work out in the world.
95
00:07:59,220 --> 00:08:03,010
We believed God was going
to bring his kingdom to Earth
96
00:08:03,010 --> 00:08:05,470
and we were going to be...
97
00:08:05,470 --> 00:08:07,180
We were going to be special.
98
00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:14,720
According to the by-laws
that our church works under,
99
00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:19,970
the leader has to be chosen of God
and they have to be a prophet.
100
00:08:21,390 --> 00:08:25,390
So all of our spiritual
leaders were all prophets,
101
00:08:25,390 --> 00:08:28,050
OK? Ben Roden was a prophet.
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VOICE OF BEN RODEN:
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00:08:38,760 --> 00:08:41,510
But in 1978, Ben Roden died.
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00:08:41,510 --> 00:08:44,430
And it was very tragic,
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because everyone thought
he was going to live forever.
106
00:08:49,260 --> 00:08:53,390
After Ben Roden died,
his wife, Lois Roden,
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became the prophet.
108
00:08:55,930 --> 00:08:59,260
She had the light,
the word, from God.
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00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:06,970
She liked fancy cars
and clothes and shoes.
110
00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:11,010
She liked power.
111
00:09:11,010 --> 00:09:16,300
But it wasn't really all that long,
112
00:09:16,470 --> 00:09:21,510
and that's when David Koresh
came along.
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THUNDER ROLLS
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00:10:39,180 --> 00:10:41,430
COUNTRY MUSIC ON RADIO
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David felt that he had not
served God properly.
116
00:10:47,890 --> 00:10:50,140
He wanted to go find
a prophet or a prophetess
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to give him more guidance.
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He felt compelled to do that
from the Lord.
119
00:11:23,550 --> 00:11:28,090
I remember this long-haired kind
of hippie dude and I was like,
120
00:11:28,090 --> 00:11:30,140
you know, who's he?
121
00:11:30,140 --> 00:11:31,760
This is not my guitar...
122
00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:34,510
And then he spent a lot of time
with our prophet,
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00:11:34,510 --> 00:11:35,680
Lois Roden.
124
00:11:37,180 --> 00:11:40,430
And from what I understand,
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00:11:40,430 --> 00:11:44,010
they had a relationship.
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Which blew my mind.
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00:11:46,890 --> 00:11:50,890
I mean, she was old enough
to be his grandmother!
128
00:11:53,260 --> 00:11:57,430
I don't know how in the world David
was able to persuade her.
129
00:11:57,430 --> 00:12:02,140
It had to be something in scripture,
130
00:12:02,140 --> 00:12:04,430
you know, similar to what Eve
131
00:12:04,430 --> 00:12:06,550
experienced with the serpent.
132
00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:26,340
David thought it was God's will
133
00:12:26,340 --> 00:12:29,930
that they were supposed
to produce a holy child.
134
00:12:31,430 --> 00:12:36,010
And so he actually tells everyone
that Lois is pregnant,
135
00:12:36,010 --> 00:12:37,930
and she's going to have a baby,
136
00:12:37,930 --> 00:12:40,840
and her faith is going
to bring forth this child.
137
00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:46,010
She miscarriages,
and so he immediately
138
00:12:46,010 --> 00:12:49,430
drops her like a hot potato
and says, OK,
139
00:12:49,430 --> 00:12:53,220
she didn't have enough faith, so
she can't be the spiritual leader.
140
00:12:53,220 --> 00:12:57,180
I must be THE spiritual leader.
141
00:13:01,680 --> 00:13:04,890
So Lois lost her authority,
142
00:13:04,890 --> 00:13:07,140
and I remember an incident...
143
00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:11,800
They were driving in a van
down the road.
144
00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:15,340
Well, the van door,
you know, opened up...
145
00:13:15,340 --> 00:13:19,300
They pushed her out
the truck, backwards.
146
00:13:19,300 --> 00:13:21,640
"We don't need you any more,
we've got David."
147
00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:40,180
I... Here, I need somebody to...
148
00:13:40,180 --> 00:13:41,550
Huh?
149
00:13:41,550 --> 00:13:43,090
Right, this is live.
150
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DISTANT SIRENS
151
00:13:50,220 --> 00:13:52,260
It's a very ugly situation,
152
00:13:52,260 --> 00:13:54,930
almost a war-like zone
going on there.
153
00:13:54,930 --> 00:13:57,300
But we're held with plenty
of gunfire,
154
00:13:57,300 --> 00:14:00,430
here goes another ambulance
headed for some of the wounded.
155
00:14:02,890 --> 00:14:06,090
At the time, we couldn't figure
out what went wrong.
156
00:14:07,550 --> 00:14:11,550
There were some really
bad things that I saw.
157
00:14:14,260 --> 00:14:16,930
You know, one agent is dead
on the back of a pick-up
158
00:14:16,930 --> 00:14:21,140
and another agent walks up
and folds his arms across his chest.
159
00:14:22,340 --> 00:14:27,550
And, uh, that's one of the saddest
things that you could see.
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HE SIGHS
161
00:14:29,300 --> 00:14:30,800
Gosh.
162
00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:33,220
It's all coming back,
I'm telling you.
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00:14:33,220 --> 00:14:35,470
INDISTINCT SHOUTING
164
00:15:00,930 --> 00:15:03,510
CHURCH BELLS RING
165
00:15:18,510 --> 00:15:21,260
David Koresh wanted to go to Israel,
166
00:15:21,260 --> 00:15:25,220
because Israel is a focal point
of Bible prophecy.
167
00:15:25,220 --> 00:15:28,510
And he says that while he was there,
168
00:15:28,510 --> 00:15:32,640
in Israel,
he had a divine visitation.
169
00:15:35,010 --> 00:15:39,260
He says a chariot came down,
170
00:15:39,260 --> 00:15:42,510
and the angels in it took him
171
00:15:42,510 --> 00:15:45,390
up higher and higher until finally,
172
00:15:45,390 --> 00:15:49,390
he arrived beyond
the constellation Orion.
173
00:15:49,390 --> 00:15:50,890
And he says there,
174
00:15:50,890 --> 00:15:53,840
"I saw civilisations
that were so advanced."
175
00:15:55,840 --> 00:15:58,680
He describes these civilisations
as having all kinds
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00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:00,640
of laser technology.
177
00:16:03,050 --> 00:16:04,760
He saw the eternal God.
178
00:16:07,340 --> 00:16:10,010
And when he returned to the Earth,
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00:16:10,010 --> 00:16:14,300
he said then that he had
a panoramic view and understanding
180
00:16:14,300 --> 00:16:15,890
of the entire Bible,
181
00:16:15,890 --> 00:16:18,300
where he could interpret it
and understand it.
182
00:16:25,890 --> 00:16:29,470
After this encounter,
something happened.
183
00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:34,260
It was as if he now
had a divine destiny.
184
00:16:52,340 --> 00:16:57,340
After Israel,
he went from basically like,
185
00:16:57,340 --> 00:17:02,050
to me, like being a bum,
just a drifter,
186
00:17:02,050 --> 00:17:06,090
to somebody that suddenly
had so much knowledge.
187
00:17:07,890 --> 00:17:09,550
It was amazing.
188
00:17:18,510 --> 00:17:19,550
Here it is.
189
00:17:21,470 --> 00:17:22,930
All this stuff behind here.
190
00:17:27,890 --> 00:17:30,140
OK, there's a lot of brick up front,
191
00:17:30,140 --> 00:17:32,760
that's not been there, that's new.
192
00:17:34,470 --> 00:17:35,510
The gate...
193
00:17:37,300 --> 00:17:41,510
I remember having a gate, but it
didn't look like that, that I know.
194
00:17:41,510 --> 00:17:43,760
And then this is
where the building was.
195
00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:45,970
Now they've got a new church.
196
00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:53,300
I think...
197
00:17:55,890 --> 00:17:57,470
..I'm parked in my room.
198
00:18:00,430 --> 00:18:03,220
I think this is right
about where my room was.
199
00:18:09,220 --> 00:18:10,640
I haven't been back.
200
00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:13,140
This is the first time.
201
00:18:17,300 --> 00:18:19,090
But it's changed a lot.
202
00:18:23,300 --> 00:18:27,050
Well, he teaches the Bible,
and he seems to know
203
00:18:27,050 --> 00:18:29,050
what he's talking about,
so I listen to him.
204
00:18:29,050 --> 00:18:31,470
What about his person?
He's pretty nice, yeah.
205
00:18:31,470 --> 00:18:33,090
He's nice? I'm mean.
206
00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:37,340
Don't listen to him!
He says he's mean. I'm mean.
207
00:18:40,970 --> 00:18:42,720
Do they? Yeah.
208
00:18:45,430 --> 00:18:47,640
I actually did not like David,
209
00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:50,300
but I could not argue with the man.
210
00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:54,430
Everything that he taught,
211
00:18:54,430 --> 00:18:57,800
I refuted, I rebutted,
212
00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:01,680
I said, why, how, where, when?
213
00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:05,140
And he answered every single
one of my questions...
214
00:19:06,510 --> 00:19:08,640
..with the book.
215
00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:12,050
So, no matter how much
I didn't like him,
216
00:19:12,050 --> 00:19:13,930
I loved him.
217
00:19:13,930 --> 00:19:16,340
I had no choice,
because I loved God.
218
00:19:19,050 --> 00:19:20,890
No-one will ever forget David.
219
00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:25,340
Charismatic...
220
00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:29,970
..but full of truth.
221
00:19:31,390 --> 00:19:34,260
CHANTING: ..in the Book,
it is written to me.
222
00:19:34,260 --> 00:19:39,430
After meeting David in California,
I was shocked, I was floored
223
00:19:39,430 --> 00:19:43,140
with the amount of information
I learned in a couple of hours,
224
00:19:43,140 --> 00:19:47,180
being more than, you know,
most of my life put together.
225
00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:52,390
So, me and my husband,
we sold our belongings
226
00:19:52,390 --> 00:19:54,550
and we moved to Waco
227
00:19:54,550 --> 00:19:58,220
to hear David and learn
on a regular basis.
228
00:20:00,890 --> 00:20:04,140
He will bring forth his judgment
to light every morning,
229
00:20:04,140 --> 00:20:05,840
but the unjust know...
230
00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:07,390
ALL: No shame.
231
00:20:07,390 --> 00:20:09,970
INDISTINCT
232
00:20:09,970 --> 00:20:14,050
It was a lot of disbelief
at the beginning, and yet,
233
00:20:14,050 --> 00:20:17,260
here he was, going through
the scriptures, the way...
234
00:20:19,390 --> 00:20:21,510
..I'd never seen done before.
235
00:20:21,510 --> 00:20:23,590
Just remarkable.
236
00:20:23,590 --> 00:20:27,430
DAVID PREACHES
237
00:20:27,430 --> 00:20:32,090
He danced around so fast
that you were bewildered,
238
00:20:32,090 --> 00:20:34,640
beguiled, mesmerised,
239
00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:36,970
at the knowledge he had, you see?
240
00:20:49,430 --> 00:20:53,180
He often would write
something on the blackboard.
241
00:20:53,180 --> 00:20:55,890
His spelling was atrocious, though.
242
00:20:55,890 --> 00:20:58,760
But the spelling wasn't the issue.
243
00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:01,510
What he could do was put
all these ideas,
244
00:21:01,510 --> 00:21:05,050
collect them all together,
and make it sound sensible.
245
00:21:05,050 --> 00:21:07,140
And that's what blew me away.
246
00:21:07,140 --> 00:21:11,590
There's a revelation of
Jesus Christ to be dealt with here.
247
00:21:11,590 --> 00:21:14,970
And you are to read it,
you are to become aware.
248
00:21:14,970 --> 00:21:19,220
You, as a person, should know
what is stated there.
249
00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:23,930
David could not only
teach the Bible,
250
00:21:23,930 --> 00:21:26,010
he was more than that.
251
00:21:26,010 --> 00:21:28,140
He was a messenger of God.
252
00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:34,300
That guy had purpose.
253
00:21:34,300 --> 00:21:38,390
He dug real deep,
I mean, he made me stretch,
254
00:21:38,390 --> 00:21:42,720
you know, my mind and my heart, OK?
255
00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:47,550
To finally embrace him
for who he really was.
256
00:21:47,550 --> 00:21:48,680
Our Messiah.
257
00:22:03,390 --> 00:22:05,140
REPORTERS SHOUTING
258
00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:15,090
Stop, stop, stop, please.
259
00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:19,390
We're here because David Koresh
and his followers killed
260
00:22:19,390 --> 00:22:21,890
four ATF agents.
261
00:22:21,890 --> 00:22:26,090
Following this tragic incident,
the ATF requested FBI support.
262
00:22:26,090 --> 00:22:29,590
We've responded with necessary
personnel and equipment.
263
00:22:29,590 --> 00:22:31,590
HORN HONKS
264
00:22:56,180 --> 00:22:58,970
ROCK MUSIC
265
00:22:58,970 --> 00:23:01,050
# Darkness in the light
266
00:23:04,590 --> 00:23:06,800
# Frantically
267
00:23:07,930 --> 00:23:10,340
# Watching the night... #
268
00:23:12,970 --> 00:23:16,180
I loved when David played music.
269
00:23:16,180 --> 00:23:18,090
That was like...
270
00:23:18,090 --> 00:23:21,550
It was the best thing to go
to church and listen to.
271
00:23:21,550 --> 00:23:24,890
# Riding on white horses
272
00:23:26,260 --> 00:23:27,970
# Fearing the night... #
273
00:23:30,590 --> 00:23:34,550
David's music became
a part of the teaching.
274
00:23:34,550 --> 00:23:38,720
It became a part of what
he did on a daily basis.
275
00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:42,970
He taught us we were part
of something bigger than us.
276
00:23:42,970 --> 00:23:47,680
Koresh made audio tapes
of sermons he had given.
277
00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:50,800
And people passed them
on to each other.
278
00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:01,970
We had a logo,
279
00:24:01,970 --> 00:24:05,260
and we had a David Koresh T-shirt
with the guitar on,
280
00:24:05,260 --> 00:24:06,640
I have one.
281
00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:09,390
# I've got a secret
282
00:24:11,090 --> 00:24:14,720
# That I'd like you
to understand... #
283
00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:18,590
David was at the centre
of what the people
284
00:24:18,590 --> 00:24:20,890
in Mount Carmel believed.
285
00:24:22,090 --> 00:24:25,260
They believed that complete
knowledge of the Bible
286
00:24:25,260 --> 00:24:27,180
was planted in his head.
287
00:24:29,550 --> 00:24:34,510
People come from England
and Australia and Hawaii,
288
00:24:34,510 --> 00:24:37,970
and I mean, we had people
from every walk of life,
289
00:24:37,970 --> 00:24:41,140
different colours,
different nationalities.
290
00:24:41,140 --> 00:24:44,090
So it was like,
I got a bigger family.
291
00:24:50,550 --> 00:24:52,840
# Mysteries in life... #
292
00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:56,390
The diversity was incredible.
293
00:24:56,390 --> 00:25:01,140
He had the nurses, the teachers,
he had the old, the young.
294
00:25:01,140 --> 00:25:03,760
I began to realise
what this was all about -
295
00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:05,260
the pursuit of truth.
296
00:25:06,430 --> 00:25:08,430
# Understand
297
00:25:10,510 --> 00:25:13,140
# The book is sealed... #
298
00:25:13,140 --> 00:25:15,890
The time I arrived at Mount Carmel,
299
00:25:15,890 --> 00:25:17,470
I had a job as a school teacher.
300
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:22,590
I think the people there
were just normal people.
301
00:25:22,590 --> 00:25:25,680
Some of them... I guess more simple
country people
302
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:27,510
and some of them were more educated.
303
00:25:27,510 --> 00:25:30,140
But they were just
a normal range of people.
304
00:25:30,140 --> 00:25:32,340
# Feel the rain fall
305
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:35,890
# Don't you understand?... #
306
00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:41,840
Back in those days,
Mount Carmel was very run down.
307
00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:43,510
I mean, it was a mess.
308
00:25:44,510 --> 00:25:46,140
There were no toilets.
309
00:25:47,340 --> 00:25:49,260
If you needed to go, you dug a hole
310
00:25:49,260 --> 00:25:51,390
at that end of the property!
311
00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:55,010
But there was a lot of work
rebuilding
312
00:25:55,010 --> 00:25:57,300
and trying to clean the place up.
313
00:26:03,470 --> 00:26:07,890
So, David Koresh built
the building that everyone's seen...
314
00:26:10,010 --> 00:26:13,890
..and I call it a hotel.
That's basically what it was.
315
00:26:13,890 --> 00:26:17,260
But he was smart,
because he gave everybody a room.
316
00:26:17,260 --> 00:26:20,390
They eat centrally,
they bathe centrally.
317
00:26:20,390 --> 00:26:24,140
He said, "Let's live together
as one big family."
318
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:29,050
We had mealtimes that we would
all get together.
319
00:26:29,050 --> 00:26:31,590
We did not live on soda
320
00:26:31,590 --> 00:26:34,760
and chocolate and sweets.
321
00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:36,680
That was not in our lifestyle.
322
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:39,760
So, water, that was our drink.
323
00:26:44,010 --> 00:26:47,720
He didn't want us
to watch cable or anything,
324
00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:50,840
because he thought that there was
just too much
325
00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:53,590
violence and drugs
326
00:26:53,590 --> 00:26:55,680
and everything on TV.
327
00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:58,550
THEY SHOUT AND LAUGH
328
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:11,590
I don't know why everybody
believed so much in David,
329
00:27:11,590 --> 00:27:13,510
just...
330
00:27:13,510 --> 00:27:16,590
He was just a really good leader.
331
00:27:16,590 --> 00:27:20,680
Everybody just hung on to every
little word he said.
332
00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:23,220
I mean, he could tell you
the grass was blue
333
00:27:23,220 --> 00:27:25,140
and he would get you to believe it.
334
00:27:33,180 --> 00:27:36,720
Yet, when David was a boy,
no-one would have ever thought
335
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:38,640
he would be a leader of anything.
336
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:03,800
OK, this is where
David used to live.
337
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:05,640
This is his grandmother's house.
338
00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:12,720
Growing up, his name,
we called him Vernon,
339
00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:14,470
that was his name to us.
340
00:28:14,470 --> 00:28:15,550
To me, still.
341
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:20,550
I was five here, Vernon was probably
almost eight years old.
342
00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:32,220
My sister, Bonnie,
was 14 when she had Vernon.
343
00:28:32,220 --> 00:28:35,390
So she was much too young
to care for a baby,
344
00:28:35,390 --> 00:28:37,090
and so my mother cared for him.
345
00:28:50,970 --> 00:28:52,840
Vernon was a very busy little boy.
346
00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:56,090
If he wasn't taking a bicycle apart
and putting it back together,
347
00:28:56,090 --> 00:28:59,930
he was fishing or building
something, or...
348
00:29:01,180 --> 00:29:02,720
..playing on the guitar.
349
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:04,390
He had a lot of talents.
350
00:29:06,470 --> 00:29:09,930
After he was five, Bonnie,
my sister, married.
351
00:29:09,930 --> 00:29:15,090
And that's when she decided
to take Vernon to live with her,
352
00:29:15,090 --> 00:29:17,510
because she'd married Roy.
353
00:29:17,510 --> 00:29:19,180
And they then had Roger.
354
00:29:22,970 --> 00:29:26,430
My dad was very rough on Vernon.
355
00:29:26,430 --> 00:29:31,140
Very unfair, and, you know,
shoved him out on the street
356
00:29:31,140 --> 00:29:32,720
at an early age and...
357
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:34,840
And just did some
horrible things to him.
358
00:29:38,010 --> 00:29:41,470
Roy, yeah. Yeah, he was a jerk.
359
00:29:41,470 --> 00:29:46,260
He was not, to put it bluntly,
a very good father to him, at all.
360
00:29:49,220 --> 00:29:53,300
I don't think Vernon
ever adjusted to the move.
361
00:29:53,300 --> 00:29:56,720
He missed being with my mom,
I think he missed being with me
362
00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:57,890
and my little brother.
363
00:30:02,090 --> 00:30:06,220
I remember we left one day
and he couldn't come home with us.
364
00:30:06,220 --> 00:30:09,970
He rode his bicycle after the car,
just, he cried.
365
00:30:09,970 --> 00:30:11,180
He cried.
366
00:30:15,510 --> 00:30:18,840
It made me sad then
and it makes me sad now.
367
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:20,800
SCHOOL BELL RINGS
368
00:30:24,140 --> 00:30:27,590
I'm not aware of him ever
being bullied at school.
369
00:30:27,590 --> 00:30:31,260
But I think he was
having some issues there.
370
00:30:31,260 --> 00:30:33,550
He did have a problem with dyslexia.
371
00:30:33,550 --> 00:30:35,140
He didn't graduate.
372
00:31:06,510 --> 00:31:09,390
Vernon was always
looking for acceptance.
373
00:31:09,390 --> 00:31:10,890
He was fighting so many things,
374
00:31:10,890 --> 00:31:13,430
so many feelings, so many questions
he wanted answered.
375
00:31:13,430 --> 00:31:14,840
He was torn.
376
00:31:19,340 --> 00:31:21,590
He would come and he would
walk out in the woods,
377
00:31:21,590 --> 00:31:24,090
and the next day I'd see him
several times.
378
00:31:24,090 --> 00:31:26,930
I'd say, "What have you been doing?"
He'd say, "I've been praying."
379
00:31:26,930 --> 00:31:30,470
I've came in and seen him kneel
down, and go out one night,
380
00:31:30,470 --> 00:31:32,930
come in and he's still
in the same position.
381
00:31:32,930 --> 00:31:35,430
You know, eight, ten hours later.
382
00:31:35,430 --> 00:31:38,340
I mean, I honestly think
when he seeked, he seeked hard.
383
00:31:44,090 --> 00:31:47,050
This is where David attended church.
384
00:31:47,050 --> 00:31:51,140
He got into some arguments
with the elders
385
00:31:51,140 --> 00:31:52,550
and the pastors of the church.
386
00:31:52,550 --> 00:31:54,640
He picked holes in the theology,
387
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:57,430
he questioned them at every turn.
388
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:00,930
So, he's been thrown out
of several churches,
389
00:32:00,930 --> 00:32:04,680
you know, because he'd stand
and ask the preacher why this,
390
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:07,760
or why that, and they couldn't
answer, so, you know,
391
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:09,720
he kind of put them on the spot.
392
00:32:12,050 --> 00:32:14,890
He needed answers,
they couldn't give him any,
393
00:32:14,890 --> 00:32:20,050
so he left and a family friend
introduced him to Mount Carmel.
394
00:32:24,430 --> 00:32:27,720
I do believe that God
talked to Vernon.
395
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:32,680
All the time, I think he held
a special place in God's heart,
396
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:35,590
and I think that God
was going to use him for things.
397
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:41,180
And he told me that one day
the government would kill him.
398
00:32:41,180 --> 00:32:42,550
He told me this.
399
00:32:42,550 --> 00:32:44,140
And I've never forgotten it.
400
00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:51,300
Hello from Waco!
401
00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:00,640
There seems to be no indications
that Davidic cult leader
402
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:04,300
David Koresh is planning
to give up any time soon.
403
00:33:04,300 --> 00:33:08,180
An FBI spokesman says the cult
leader is rejecting reasonable
404
00:33:08,180 --> 00:33:10,510
compromises that could end
the stand-off,
405
00:33:10,510 --> 00:33:12,140
now in its eighth day.
406
00:33:20,220 --> 00:33:23,550
When I first spoke to David Koresh,
407
00:33:23,550 --> 00:33:26,720
who I knew as Vernon Wayne Howell,
408
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:29,890
I believe it was about half an hour
409
00:33:29,890 --> 00:33:32,090
into the raid on Sunday.
410
00:33:33,510 --> 00:33:36,050
I said, "How do you pronounce
that last name?"
411
00:33:36,050 --> 00:33:40,090
Shots are being fired, people are
screaming in the background.
412
00:33:40,090 --> 00:33:43,430
And he very calmly says,
413
00:33:43,430 --> 00:33:44,930
"Agent Sage,
414
00:33:44,930 --> 00:33:46,720
"have you ever heard a person die?"
415
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:48,590
SIREN BLARES
416
00:33:48,590 --> 00:33:51,640
"It's like that last
exhalation of breath.
417
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:54,260
"It's Koresshhh."
418
00:34:01,300 --> 00:34:03,840
When I met him,
he was Vernon Howell.
419
00:34:05,010 --> 00:34:10,180
And then he went and legally changed
his name to David Koresh.
420
00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:34,550
David, of course, is the king
of Israel that is to come some day
421
00:34:34,550 --> 00:34:37,140
and bring the world peace.
422
00:34:37,140 --> 00:34:41,970
And Koresh, the last name
that David took,
423
00:34:41,970 --> 00:34:45,430
is based, of course,
on the Hebrew, Cyrus,
424
00:34:45,430 --> 00:34:49,760
the Messiah to redeem
the true people of God.
425
00:34:57,930 --> 00:35:01,680
You mean God in Heaven
has a book called truth? Mm-hmm.
426
00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:05,590
A book that no man can reveal
but who himself? Jesus Christ.
427
00:35:05,590 --> 00:35:08,720
So when we start getting
into the subject of the Seven Seals,
428
00:35:08,720 --> 00:35:11,470
and the world wants
to twist up and turn around,
429
00:35:11,470 --> 00:35:13,640
and then we'll be honest,
it looks like somebody's
430
00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:16,680
going to get a butt whooping
in the near future, aren't they?
431
00:35:17,930 --> 00:35:19,930
How come religion's not weeping?
432
00:35:19,930 --> 00:35:23,140
Here's a revelation
of Christ nobody knows.
433
00:35:23,140 --> 00:35:26,220
All I care about when
I judge them is one thing.
434
00:35:36,260 --> 00:35:40,220
As David Koresh studied the Bible,
435
00:35:40,220 --> 00:35:43,300
he began to see
that the Book of Revelation
436
00:35:43,300 --> 00:35:45,970
was the key to understanding
everything.
437
00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:50,550
It speaks of the Seven Seals.
438
00:35:51,470 --> 00:35:53,640
Each seal has to be opened,
439
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:58,010
and it would reveal the coming
kingdom of God on Earth,
440
00:35:58,010 --> 00:36:01,430
and that leading up to his coming
441
00:36:01,430 --> 00:36:06,470
would be many types of end time
events that would be catastrophic.
442
00:36:06,470 --> 00:36:10,510
It's a drama.
It's an apocalyptic drama
443
00:36:10,510 --> 00:36:13,430
of what will happen
in the last days.
444
00:36:18,550 --> 00:36:23,840
As this drama unfolds,
you get these key figures.
445
00:36:24,470 --> 00:36:27,220
CREATURE ROARS
446
00:36:31,970 --> 00:36:34,800
One is a horrible looking beast.
447
00:36:37,050 --> 00:36:40,090
And that is identified as Babylon,
448
00:36:40,090 --> 00:36:43,970
the whole political,
military power of the world.
449
00:36:48,220 --> 00:36:50,680
THUNDER AND LIGHTNING
450
00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:54,180
And then there are the people
of God, that are being opposed
451
00:36:54,180 --> 00:36:56,890
by Babylon and persecuted
by Babylon.
452
00:37:00,390 --> 00:37:03,840
So as David is reading these things,
453
00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:06,590
he believes the Branch Davidians
454
00:37:06,590 --> 00:37:08,680
are going to be this special
chosen group.
455
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:17,140
And when you finally get
to the Seventh Seal,
456
00:37:17,140 --> 00:37:19,890
that's the end of the world.
457
00:37:19,890 --> 00:37:21,470
That's the final judgment.
458
00:37:27,090 --> 00:37:30,220
When I read the
Book Of Revelation I say,
459
00:37:30,220 --> 00:37:32,800
"Oh, the guy who wrote it
was on acid.
460
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:34,220
"First acid work."
461
00:37:35,590 --> 00:37:39,720
When you get to interpreting people
riding horses of different colours
462
00:37:39,720 --> 00:37:44,340
with spears and arrows,
and monsters around them...
463
00:37:44,340 --> 00:37:46,430
This is a big job.
464
00:37:46,430 --> 00:37:50,260
But David Koresh claimed
he could make sense of it.
465
00:37:52,300 --> 00:37:57,390
We're told in the text that no-one
in heaven or on Earth could open
466
00:37:57,390 --> 00:38:00,220
the Seven Seals
and cause Babylon to fall.
467
00:38:01,590 --> 00:38:06,180
And then suddenly the text says,
"Wait, wait, there is this lamb
468
00:38:06,180 --> 00:38:07,930
"who can open the seals."
469
00:38:12,340 --> 00:38:16,640
So David Koresh,
he knew that only the Lamb of God
470
00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:20,260
could open the Seven Seals
and explain it.
471
00:38:20,260 --> 00:38:24,220
And because he was interpreting
the seals, he became convinced
472
00:38:24,220 --> 00:38:26,840
that he was more
than just a Messiah,
473
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:29,720
he became convinced
he was the Lamb of God.
474
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:36,640
Messiah means someone
that was anointed
475
00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:38,510
to fulfil a purpose for God.
476
00:38:38,510 --> 00:38:39,890
Come on in.
477
00:38:39,890 --> 00:38:42,680
David Koresh was more than that.
478
00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:44,180
He claimed to be Christ.
479
00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:14,180
This is a letter that he wrote.
480
00:39:14,180 --> 00:39:18,840
"I am the Son of God,
I am here on Earth to give
481
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:22,390
"you the word of God,
and I ride on a white horse."
482
00:39:25,930 --> 00:39:27,680
Do you believe he's the son of God?
483
00:39:29,390 --> 00:39:31,300
Yeah.
484
00:39:31,300 --> 00:39:33,590
I hope he is.
485
00:39:33,590 --> 00:39:38,050
He convinced his followers
that that's who he was.
486
00:39:38,050 --> 00:39:39,390
So they believed him.
487
00:39:42,090 --> 00:39:44,390
SOFT FOOTSTEPS
488
00:39:47,260 --> 00:39:50,680
If David was the true Lamb of God,
489
00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:53,510
we became the spiritual elite
490
00:39:53,510 --> 00:39:55,510
from the Book Of Revelation.
491
00:39:55,510 --> 00:39:59,890
The people of God, who were actually
going to fight the last battle.
492
00:40:05,390 --> 00:40:10,430
Koresh taught that the group would
suffer persecution and martyrdom.
493
00:40:11,510 --> 00:40:14,260
And some of them would fall by fire.
494
00:40:21,010 --> 00:40:23,340
We constructed an obstacle course.
495
00:40:23,340 --> 00:40:26,090
We had to train,
we had to get physically fit
496
00:40:26,090 --> 00:40:28,180
for the tribulation that would come.
497
00:40:28,180 --> 00:40:31,180
GUNFIRE
498
00:40:31,180 --> 00:40:35,760
We knew a war was coming,
and it was inevitable
499
00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:37,970
that we were going to die.
500
00:40:37,970 --> 00:40:41,340
I think shooting guns
was a way to...
501
00:40:42,590 --> 00:40:44,340
..ease that pain a little bit.
502
00:40:55,050 --> 00:40:58,680
Me and my two older brothers,
503
00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:02,090
we were taught how to shoot guns.
504
00:41:03,590 --> 00:41:05,890
We were God's soldiers,
505
00:41:05,890 --> 00:41:10,470
and we had to be ready
when the enemy came.
506
00:41:10,470 --> 00:41:14,090
CHILD'S VOICE: We surrender!
Don't we?!
507
00:41:14,090 --> 00:41:19,340
My mom had bought me
this Wetsy Betsy doll.
508
00:41:21,010 --> 00:41:23,010
And when you...
509
00:41:23,010 --> 00:41:25,140
When she drank water, she peed.
510
00:41:26,390 --> 00:41:27,720
You can see the...
511
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:31,340
The privates.
512
00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:35,300
David saw it and...
513
00:41:35,300 --> 00:41:38,010
..told me to...shoot it.
514
00:41:39,260 --> 00:41:42,590
Because it was...not proper.
515
00:41:54,260 --> 00:41:57,340
A lot of people say,
he's got guns, that makes him bad,
516
00:41:57,340 --> 00:41:59,430
that makes him a cult.
517
00:41:59,430 --> 00:42:02,390
Would you use a gun
if somebody came in here?
518
00:42:02,390 --> 00:42:04,800
They come in here with a gun,
519
00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:06,550
and they start shooting at us,
520
00:42:06,550 --> 00:42:08,510
what would you do?
521
00:42:08,510 --> 00:42:11,300
KIDS SHOUTING, PLAYING
522
00:42:11,300 --> 00:42:12,430
THEY ALL SING:
523
00:42:25,010 --> 00:42:26,930
We knew if we got killed...
524
00:42:28,300 --> 00:42:31,800
..or anything, it's was OK,
525
00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:34,720
because it was God's will.
526
00:42:34,720 --> 00:42:39,300
You know? We were taught
we would fight till we died.
527
00:42:41,510 --> 00:42:44,390
# This is for the little children...
Right?
528
00:42:44,390 --> 00:42:46,760
# God knows how it should be
529
00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:48,720
# Stars and stripes a-flying
530
00:42:48,720 --> 00:42:50,760
# Give us justice and liberty... #
531
00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:53,430
For the children's sake, you know,
532
00:42:53,430 --> 00:42:55,890
you might have to bear a gun
one day.
533
00:42:55,890 --> 00:42:57,590
If you like shooting us in the head,
534
00:42:57,590 --> 00:42:59,470
we're going to shoot you
in the head.
535
00:43:01,260 --> 00:43:04,140
Pow, pow, pow, pow, pow!
Right in the eye!
536
00:43:04,140 --> 00:43:05,720
Pow, pow, right in the eye!
537
00:43:11,140 --> 00:43:15,260
David believes that he is
the messianic deliverer
538
00:43:15,260 --> 00:43:16,840
of the people of God,
539
00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:19,550
to deliver them from the evil
powers of Babylon.
540
00:43:25,970 --> 00:43:30,140
So, as he begins to understand
those Seven Seals,
541
00:43:30,140 --> 00:43:35,390
it becomes apparent to David
that the Babylon that he's facing
542
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:37,550
is the United States of America.
543
00:44:18,720 --> 00:44:21,800
The first time I remember
coming across Koresh,
544
00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:25,760
my brother and I, Mike,
who was also a deputy US marshal
545
00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:29,590
at the time,
we were on Valley Mills Drive,
546
00:44:29,590 --> 00:44:31,720
and this Camaro was right beside us.
547
00:44:31,720 --> 00:44:34,510
And we look over,
and it's David Koresh.
548
00:44:37,720 --> 00:44:40,140
And so he takes off real fast,
549
00:44:40,140 --> 00:44:43,140
smoke in the tyres, fishtailing.
550
00:44:43,140 --> 00:44:45,890
And my brother looked at me
and he was laughing,
551
00:44:45,890 --> 00:44:49,340
and he said,
"My gosh, there goes Jesus."
552
00:44:49,340 --> 00:44:52,640
ENGINE REVVING
553
00:44:58,430 --> 00:45:00,970
David and I were very close.
554
00:45:00,970 --> 00:45:02,470
He was like an older brother.
555
00:45:02,470 --> 00:45:04,590
We genuinely liked one another.
556
00:45:06,260 --> 00:45:08,390
I want to introduce you to some
of the people you see
557
00:45:08,390 --> 00:45:10,470
around the table. This is Mark.
558
00:45:10,470 --> 00:45:13,840
How are you doing? Nice to meet you.
559
00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:15,430
And this is David.
560
00:45:33,550 --> 00:45:36,300
David and I used to talk
a lot in private.
561
00:45:36,300 --> 00:45:39,430
Usually late at night,
we were both night owls.
562
00:45:39,430 --> 00:45:44,010
And he would say to me things like,
"Can you imagine what it's like when
563
00:45:44,010 --> 00:45:48,050
"God tells you that you are
the one foretold in the prophecies,
564
00:45:48,050 --> 00:45:50,050
"that you are the chosen one?"
565
00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:54,840
He really believed
what he was saying.
566
00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:57,220
And he was also tortured by it.
567
00:46:10,430 --> 00:46:14,140
And slowly but surely,
David Koresh began to change.
568
00:46:31,340 --> 00:46:34,930
Bible studies would often start
in the middle of the afternoon,
569
00:46:34,930 --> 00:46:38,430
and they would go until morning,
until daylight.
570
00:46:38,430 --> 00:46:41,010
DAVID PREACHING, INDISTINCT
571
00:46:41,010 --> 00:46:43,890
He would just keep going on
and on and on.
572
00:46:43,890 --> 00:46:46,720
You'd be praying,
please don't ask a question.
573
00:46:46,720 --> 00:46:48,050
I want to go to bed!
574
00:46:58,010 --> 00:47:00,760
We had been in there
for hours already.
575
00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:05,430
And, you know,
I had to use the rest room.
576
00:47:05,430 --> 00:47:08,340
He was, like, "Well,
you're just going to have to wait
577
00:47:08,340 --> 00:47:10,470
"and you're going to have
to do it on yourself."
578
00:47:19,550 --> 00:47:22,390
There was a rumour round Waco
579
00:47:22,390 --> 00:47:26,510
that David Koresh was taking
some form
580
00:47:26,510 --> 00:47:28,090
of what we call speed.
581
00:47:28,090 --> 00:47:29,680
HE YELLS:
582
00:47:41,300 --> 00:47:45,390
So, this new David that was emerging
began to tell us
583
00:47:45,390 --> 00:47:47,930
that we shouldn't question
what he had to say.
584
00:47:47,930 --> 00:47:50,590
DAVID SINGS
585
00:47:50,590 --> 00:47:55,220
It was becoming all about him,
his role, his special purpose,
586
00:47:55,220 --> 00:47:57,260
his special importance,
587
00:47:57,260 --> 00:48:01,220
because he was the chosen one,
588
00:48:01,220 --> 00:48:04,800
and he began to emphasise
that more and more.
589
00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:08,930
# There's a mad man
living in Waco
590
00:48:10,140 --> 00:48:13,930
# Who's bowing his knee to them
591
00:48:13,930 --> 00:48:18,140
# Didn't want to hurt anybody
592
00:48:19,840 --> 00:48:23,590
# Just let our own people free... #
593
00:48:28,090 --> 00:48:31,550
As time went on,
the emphasis started to shift,
594
00:48:31,550 --> 00:48:35,260
and some of that camaraderie
that was around in the early days
595
00:48:35,260 --> 00:48:37,550
started to erode.
596
00:48:37,550 --> 00:48:40,890
And you had more of
a Gestapo mentality.
597
00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:52,220
I don't know. It seemed
like he just got a...
598
00:48:52,220 --> 00:48:57,470
..big head after a little while.
He started to get more controlling.
599
00:49:01,390 --> 00:49:06,390
I was monitored on,
like, how many hours I worked.
600
00:49:06,390 --> 00:49:09,140
If you didn't dress right.
601
00:49:10,220 --> 00:49:13,550
I mean, me, personally,
I just was always scared.
602
00:49:15,300 --> 00:49:17,680
It's very oppressive
to live like that.
603
00:49:24,390 --> 00:49:26,590
Well, we had one
armed guard at the back
604
00:49:26,590 --> 00:49:28,300
and one armed guard at the front.
605
00:49:30,090 --> 00:49:33,180
Because you couldn't just leave
the property when you wanted to,
606
00:49:33,180 --> 00:49:36,050
you had to get permission
from David.
607
00:49:37,840 --> 00:49:41,180
I mean, eventually you start kind of
questioning everything.
608
00:49:44,720 --> 00:49:48,550
You start thinking,
OK, is he really a prophet?
609
00:49:48,550 --> 00:49:50,840
Is he really telling you the truth?
610
00:49:52,140 --> 00:49:53,470
Are we a cult?
611
00:49:57,260 --> 00:50:00,800
One night I got up to go
to the bathroom,
612
00:50:00,800 --> 00:50:04,590
and I found David Koresh
on his knees, praying.
613
00:50:05,930 --> 00:50:07,930
He had tears coming down his face,
614
00:50:07,930 --> 00:50:10,300
and I said, "Are you OK?"
615
00:50:10,300 --> 00:50:15,180
And he said, "I'm just struggling
with the enormous weight
616
00:50:15,180 --> 00:50:18,390
"on my shoulders of the job
that I have to do."
617
00:50:23,010 --> 00:50:25,590
So David was under
a lot of pressure
618
00:50:25,590 --> 00:50:29,010
because if you're specially chosen
by God, you can never be wrong.
619
00:50:30,550 --> 00:50:34,010
He thought he was moving
toward the end time.
620
00:50:34,010 --> 00:50:38,550
But as life pretty much continued,
there was a little bit of disquiet
621
00:50:38,550 --> 00:50:42,390
so he had to start
to make things happen.
622
00:50:42,390 --> 00:50:45,090
He had to make
the apocalypse happen.
623
00:50:57,050 --> 00:51:00,050
At about 6pm yesterday,
several gallons of milk,
624
00:51:00,050 --> 00:51:04,140
cheese and crackers for the children
were delivered to the compound,
625
00:51:04,140 --> 00:51:08,390
along with a video camera
to provide us with information
626
00:51:08,390 --> 00:51:10,300
about the condition of the children.
627
00:51:17,930 --> 00:51:20,970
The question is, what am I doing
with all these children,
628
00:51:20,970 --> 00:51:23,390
you know? What's really going
on here?
629
00:51:23,390 --> 00:51:26,260
These children that I have
are for a reason.
630
00:51:38,970 --> 00:51:42,550
What David taught the group
was that the new generation
631
00:51:42,550 --> 00:51:47,840
of specially born children
would be the beginnings of a whole
632
00:51:47,840 --> 00:51:51,140
new generation of the kingdom
of God that was coming.
633
00:51:54,930 --> 00:51:59,140
It's in the Book Of Revelation,
where it says after the Lamb of God
634
00:51:59,140 --> 00:52:03,390
conquers Babylon,
and he brings about the end,
635
00:52:03,390 --> 00:52:06,090
there would be a special group.
636
00:52:06,090 --> 00:52:10,550
24 elders who are going to sit
as rulers of the Earth.
637
00:52:14,510 --> 00:52:17,970
Revelation of John the Apostle...
638
00:52:17,970 --> 00:52:22,390
David concludes,
perhaps conveniently,
639
00:52:22,390 --> 00:52:27,260
that he had to be the father
of those 24 elders.
640
00:52:29,140 --> 00:52:34,220
The problem with that is the elders
were born of virgins.
641
00:52:35,470 --> 00:52:38,220
Pretty hard to find a virgin
in Waco, Texas,
642
00:52:38,220 --> 00:52:40,510
or anywhere else these days.
643
00:52:42,090 --> 00:52:47,300
And perhaps that's why he slept
with some women who were underaged.
644
00:52:53,640 --> 00:52:56,050
Oh, boy, it's lonely out here.
645
00:53:00,840 --> 00:53:02,510
I came from Australia.
646
00:53:03,720 --> 00:53:06,470
My mother and I,
and my two daughters,
647
00:53:06,470 --> 00:53:10,760
were living here long before
we ever heard of Vernon Howell,
648
00:53:10,760 --> 00:53:12,550
or David Koresh, or whatever.
649
00:53:15,430 --> 00:53:17,760
Then my youngest daughter,
650
00:53:17,760 --> 00:53:21,260
she got involved with David,
uh, sexually.
651
00:53:24,180 --> 00:53:26,890
She never talked to me about it.
652
00:53:26,890 --> 00:53:30,550
She was mature enough
to know what she was doing.
653
00:53:30,550 --> 00:53:32,260
INTERVIEWER: How old was she?
654
00:53:33,640 --> 00:53:37,090
I don't remember,
at the time maybe...
655
00:53:37,090 --> 00:53:39,550
..14 or so, maybe 15.
656
00:53:39,550 --> 00:53:40,840
I can't remember.
657
00:53:43,090 --> 00:53:46,970
But God asks his prophets
or his messengers
658
00:53:46,970 --> 00:53:49,760
to do some strange things.
659
00:53:49,760 --> 00:53:53,090
He certainly didn't take
all the pretty ones, necessarily.
660
00:53:57,680 --> 00:54:02,050
This is a picture of
Rachel and David Koresh.
661
00:54:03,090 --> 00:54:07,300
Rachel is my dad's sister,
662
00:54:07,300 --> 00:54:11,840
and this is the one
he was married to, legally.
663
00:54:13,390 --> 00:54:17,970
David Koresh
and my aunts and my uncles,
664
00:54:17,970 --> 00:54:19,930
I guess, had grown up together.
665
00:54:21,300 --> 00:54:25,890
So my grandparents let him
marry their daughter.
666
00:54:27,140 --> 00:54:29,720
And I think she was 14 at the time.
667
00:54:35,720 --> 00:54:39,430
And it was kind of like, well,
668
00:54:39,430 --> 00:54:42,640
OK, she's a little...
669
00:54:42,640 --> 00:54:44,050
..a little young.
670
00:54:45,390 --> 00:54:47,970
And they had Cyrus,
their first child.
671
00:54:49,590 --> 00:54:54,800
David actually had kids
by two of my dad's sisters.
672
00:55:06,470 --> 00:55:07,800
Michelle was very young.
673
00:55:11,180 --> 00:55:14,390
She was only, like, 13 or 14.
674
00:55:14,390 --> 00:55:17,800
And I started thinking,
675
00:55:17,800 --> 00:55:19,760
how can this be right?
676
00:55:24,180 --> 00:55:27,930
One of the times when
David confided in me,
677
00:55:27,930 --> 00:55:30,470
he said to me in private, he said,
678
00:55:30,470 --> 00:55:34,970
"You know, the Lord said to me,
you must take Michelle."
679
00:55:36,220 --> 00:55:38,800
And he said to me, "Can you believe
it, she's been with me since
680
00:55:38,800 --> 00:55:40,550
"she was 12 years old?"
681
00:56:06,010 --> 00:56:10,090
One night I was downstairs,
playing a game.
682
00:56:10,090 --> 00:56:13,390
So, I just, you know,
looked like I was busy
683
00:56:13,390 --> 00:56:15,180
doing something on the computer.
684
00:56:19,090 --> 00:56:24,340
And I waited and waited until I saw
this girl go into his bedroom alone.
685
00:56:25,970 --> 00:56:29,050
And at that time,
she was one of his favourites.
686
00:56:34,340 --> 00:56:37,550
So, I stayed there for
a little while longer,
687
00:56:37,550 --> 00:56:40,430
to make sure that I could say
definitively
688
00:56:40,430 --> 00:56:42,010
that this was happening.
689
00:56:48,800 --> 00:56:52,760
I'd been away from the group
for about two years,
690
00:56:52,760 --> 00:56:57,640
and I was shocked at how
different the group was.
691
00:56:58,720 --> 00:57:02,760
Some of the young girls,
who'd been happy-go-lucky people
692
00:57:02,760 --> 00:57:06,890
two years ago, had shut down,
completely.
693
00:57:13,550 --> 00:57:15,090
I was disgusted.
694
00:57:15,090 --> 00:57:16,890
Absolutely disgusted.
695
00:57:16,890 --> 00:57:19,760
And I was even saying things
to Marc like,
696
00:57:19,760 --> 00:57:22,510
"Can't you see this is wrong?!
697
00:57:22,510 --> 00:57:25,050
"There's something seriously
wrong going on here."
698
00:57:29,760 --> 00:57:34,970
The facts were, before David slept
with any underage girls,
699
00:57:36,300 --> 00:57:39,260
he got permission
from their parents.
700
00:57:53,090 --> 00:57:56,590
When David would present
the idea to the girls,
701
00:57:56,590 --> 00:57:57,720
they bought into it.
702
00:58:00,640 --> 00:58:04,140
So, I respect that decision
on their part,
703
00:58:04,140 --> 00:58:07,050
whether it's my daughter's
or somebody else's daughter's,
704
00:58:07,050 --> 00:58:12,090
if they made that commitment,
uh, I can deal with it.
705
00:58:16,550 --> 00:58:20,930
What we don't understand
is that David Koresh was living by
706
00:58:20,930 --> 00:58:25,260
what he understood to be biblical
law, the laws of the Bible.
707
00:58:25,260 --> 00:58:30,300
For that reason, he could find
examples of multiple wives
708
00:58:30,300 --> 00:58:34,970
held by the men of God -
Abraham, David, Solomon.
709
00:58:34,970 --> 00:58:37,390
He'd also find examples
in the Bible
710
00:58:37,390 --> 00:58:39,930
of younger women being those wives.
711
00:58:47,140 --> 00:58:49,720
To bear these 24 children,
712
00:58:49,720 --> 00:58:52,680
David had relationships
with multiple women.
713
00:58:53,720 --> 00:58:55,010
I was one of those women.
714
00:58:57,090 --> 00:59:00,340
But I can guarantee you
that these relationships
715
00:59:00,340 --> 00:59:02,050
weren't about sex.
716
00:59:03,090 --> 00:59:05,090
They were about God.
717
00:59:12,180 --> 00:59:14,300
Let me just ask you
a question flat out...
718
00:59:33,970 --> 00:59:35,720
# Darkness
719
00:59:36,970 --> 00:59:38,590
# Darkness in the light... #
720
00:59:38,590 --> 00:59:42,930
As David was building Mount Carmel
721
00:59:42,930 --> 00:59:47,800
really as an association
that worshipped him,
722
00:59:47,800 --> 00:59:52,260
he came up with a doctrine
that almost split the group,
723
00:59:52,260 --> 00:59:55,180
and caused problems
that lasted for years.
724
00:59:57,050 --> 00:59:58,840
He called it The New Light.
725
01:00:10,970 --> 01:00:13,430
The New Light,
726
01:00:13,430 --> 01:00:16,970
it annulled marriages,
it annulled human marriages.
727
01:00:21,760 --> 01:00:24,760
He said it was word
that he'd got from God
728
01:00:24,760 --> 01:00:30,050
that we were not
to have marital relations.
729
01:00:31,140 --> 01:00:34,640
We weren't allowed to hold hands,
we weren't allowed to kiss.
730
01:00:36,760 --> 01:00:38,140
It was...
731
01:00:40,300 --> 01:00:42,220
..very difficult.
732
01:00:45,340 --> 01:00:49,340
My mom had to tell me and explain,
733
01:00:49,340 --> 01:00:53,050
all the women,
they should be with David
734
01:00:53,050 --> 01:00:55,180
and have babies with him.
735
01:00:58,640 --> 01:01:00,510
Come on, look over here.
736
01:01:00,510 --> 01:01:02,220
He's always fascinated with me.
737
01:01:09,800 --> 01:01:11,340
Kiss?
738
01:01:11,340 --> 01:01:12,590
Thank you.
739
01:01:12,590 --> 01:01:13,720
Can I have a kiss?
740
01:01:16,010 --> 01:01:18,390
What he said was he was the only one
741
01:01:18,390 --> 01:01:21,800
who could produce
righteous children,
742
01:01:21,800 --> 01:01:24,590
and all the women
in the world belonged to him.
743
01:01:26,550 --> 01:01:28,470
That was his divine instruction.
744
01:01:33,930 --> 01:01:36,260
Steve and Judy,
their story's very sad.
745
01:01:36,260 --> 01:01:37,640
They were very close to me.
746
01:01:39,640 --> 01:01:42,760
They had tried for many years
to have children,
747
01:01:42,760 --> 01:01:44,840
but they couldn't.
748
01:01:44,840 --> 01:01:48,220
The day after The New Light,
I remember Steve Schneider saying
749
01:01:48,220 --> 01:01:51,180
to Judy, "You know what's
going to happen, you're going to go
750
01:01:51,180 --> 01:01:53,890
"with him, and eventually you're
going to fall in love with him."
751
01:01:53,890 --> 01:01:57,260
And Judy was in tears,
because she loved Steve,
752
01:01:57,260 --> 01:01:59,180
she loved Steve to the day she died.
753
01:02:04,840 --> 01:02:07,430
But Steve would say,
"But what if he IS the son of God?
754
01:02:07,430 --> 01:02:10,140
"We risk eternal punishment."
755
01:02:10,140 --> 01:02:14,050
So, unfortunately, eventually
they did go along with it.
756
01:02:16,390 --> 01:02:18,590
This is Steve Schneider filming.
757
01:02:18,590 --> 01:02:22,840
The date today is the 8th,
which is Monday, the 8th of March.
758
01:02:22,840 --> 01:02:24,510
And what is your name?
759
01:02:24,510 --> 01:02:27,220
My name is Judy Schneider Koresh.
760
01:02:27,220 --> 01:02:29,470
This is my daughter, Mina.
761
01:02:29,470 --> 01:02:32,590
So, when Judy went
with David Koresh,
762
01:02:32,590 --> 01:02:34,720
the two of them did manage
to have a child,
763
01:02:34,720 --> 01:02:36,840
David and Judy had a child.
764
01:02:36,840 --> 01:02:39,760
And that would have been very
difficult for Steve.
765
01:02:39,760 --> 01:02:41,640
Okey doke. Can you say your ABCs?
766
01:02:41,640 --> 01:02:43,840
# A, B, C, D,
767
01:02:43,840 --> 01:02:45,340
# E, F, G,
768
01:02:45,340 --> 01:02:47,390
# H, I, J, K,
769
01:02:47,390 --> 01:02:49,340
# L, M, N, O, P
770
01:02:49,340 --> 01:02:52,890
# Now I know my ABCs
771
01:02:52,890 --> 01:02:55,760
# Won't you come and sing with me? #
772
01:02:55,760 --> 01:02:57,180
Well, that's some of it.
773
01:03:00,970 --> 01:03:05,390
But Steve decided to love the child
as much as he could,
774
01:03:05,390 --> 01:03:06,970
because it was Judy's child.
775
01:03:23,010 --> 01:03:27,590
So, when The New Light first
came out, my husband, Mike,
776
01:03:27,590 --> 01:03:30,930
he had to burn some pictures,
777
01:03:30,930 --> 01:03:32,680
he was told, that he had of me.
778
01:03:34,090 --> 01:03:36,180
And it was rough on him.
779
01:03:41,470 --> 01:03:44,840
It was not that hard for me
to give up Mike.
780
01:03:44,840 --> 01:03:47,140
DAVID PREACHING, INDISTINCT
781
01:03:51,090 --> 01:03:54,010
And I hurt probably more...
782
01:03:55,300 --> 01:03:57,050
..for the pain HE went through.
783
01:04:00,390 --> 01:04:03,510
But Kathryn Schroeder
784
01:04:03,510 --> 01:04:05,800
was in love with God.
785
01:04:05,800 --> 01:04:09,300
And did not have an issue
with giving up Mike.
786
01:04:17,590 --> 01:04:21,550
So I'm revealing elements
to this that I really
787
01:04:21,550 --> 01:04:24,340
have never gotten into.
This is pretty deep.
788
01:04:29,510 --> 01:04:32,510
David gave me my own
special session one night.
789
01:04:35,800 --> 01:04:39,720
It was...the highest honour
790
01:04:39,720 --> 01:04:43,680
I could have ever felt in my life.
791
01:04:47,010 --> 01:04:50,550
TEARFULLY: To be taken
as God's wife,
792
01:04:50,550 --> 01:04:53,220
when you don't even feel
like you deserve it.
793
01:04:54,680 --> 01:04:56,220
And I didn't.
794
01:05:11,090 --> 01:05:15,300
If he chose to have relations
with you,
795
01:05:15,300 --> 01:05:17,140
you were his wife.
796
01:05:17,140 --> 01:05:19,050
He could do that.
797
01:05:21,890 --> 01:05:24,640
And, um... I...
798
01:05:24,640 --> 01:05:27,090
I did feel like
my time was coming.
799
01:05:53,800 --> 01:05:56,930
Mount Carmel. That was home.
800
01:05:56,930 --> 01:05:59,260
I mean, that was
where our family was.
801
01:05:59,260 --> 01:06:03,180
That was where everything we knew,
everybody we knew.
802
01:06:05,010 --> 01:06:07,140
I even met my husband there.
803
01:06:08,340 --> 01:06:09,930
What would I do for David?
804
01:06:11,390 --> 01:06:13,260
I love him as a brother.
805
01:06:14,800 --> 01:06:18,550
But then David, he told us that...
806
01:06:18,550 --> 01:06:20,800
..we were no longer...
807
01:06:20,800 --> 01:06:22,840
..husband and wives.
808
01:06:24,300 --> 01:06:26,390
Well, it didn't work out.
809
01:06:33,930 --> 01:06:37,970
My husband was put in the house
with the single men.
810
01:06:39,340 --> 01:06:43,680
And I was moved into a duplex.
811
01:06:45,430 --> 01:06:49,840
And I remember several times him
asking me if I could
812
01:06:49,840 --> 01:06:51,590
still have children.
813
01:06:51,590 --> 01:06:52,680
And, um...
814
01:06:55,760 --> 01:06:56,840
..I...
815
01:06:59,340 --> 01:07:02,220
..I did feel like my time
was coming up,
816
01:07:02,220 --> 01:07:05,180
and I just...
817
01:07:05,180 --> 01:07:07,260
..I couldn't deal with that.
818
01:07:14,760 --> 01:07:16,680
And so, one night...
819
01:07:18,930 --> 01:07:21,510
..I packed up my stuff and I left.
820
01:07:32,260 --> 01:07:35,890
I didn't say goodbye to my children.
821
01:07:35,890 --> 01:07:38,550
I didn't have anywhere to take them.
822
01:07:38,550 --> 01:07:41,800
I had no means to take care of them.
823
01:07:41,800 --> 01:07:43,390
That was...
824
01:07:45,300 --> 01:07:48,800
That was the hardest thing
I ever did in my whole life.
825
01:07:50,470 --> 01:07:52,840
But I just...
826
01:07:52,840 --> 01:07:56,220
I just knew I had to get out.
827
01:08:02,300 --> 01:08:05,090
We woke up and...
828
01:08:06,470 --> 01:08:07,930
..my mom was gone.
829
01:08:11,890 --> 01:08:13,640
And then after she left...
830
01:08:15,090 --> 01:08:16,180
Uh...
831
01:08:18,050 --> 01:08:20,260
..David wouldn't even let me
see her.
832
01:08:24,680 --> 01:08:28,970
Because then I would be, like,
tainted by the outside world.
833
01:08:34,220 --> 01:08:37,340
So, he told me that if...
834
01:08:38,930 --> 01:08:42,840
..I wanted to see my mom
outside Carmel,
835
01:08:42,840 --> 01:08:45,680
that I was a traitor
836
01:08:45,680 --> 01:08:48,300
and I didn't belong there any more.
837
01:08:49,340 --> 01:08:50,550
Hi, David!
838
01:08:51,680 --> 01:08:53,260
Love you!
839
01:08:53,260 --> 01:08:56,430
I don't know who would tell any kid
840
01:08:56,430 --> 01:08:59,260
that they would have to pick
841
01:08:59,260 --> 01:09:01,930
between one of their parents.
842
01:09:20,140 --> 01:09:23,340
Elizabeth had to go
back to Australia.
843
01:09:23,340 --> 01:09:26,640
So we were actually separated
for five months.
844
01:09:26,640 --> 01:09:29,220
And during that five months,
845
01:09:29,220 --> 01:09:31,760
the relationship between
846
01:09:31,760 --> 01:09:34,390
David and I became more and more
fractious.
847
01:09:40,890 --> 01:09:43,090
I decided I couldn't stay
any longer,
848
01:09:43,090 --> 01:09:47,010
that I had to make a break
from the group.
849
01:09:47,010 --> 01:09:49,970
But I had learned that Koresh
had ordered
850
01:09:49,970 --> 01:09:53,470
a couple of his loyal henchmen
to watch me carefully.
851
01:09:53,470 --> 01:09:56,550
And if I stepped out of line,
852
01:09:56,550 --> 01:09:59,550
they were going to... They had
orders to beat me to a pulp.
853
01:10:19,050 --> 01:10:23,140
So, I had to be very careful,
meticulously plan my getaway.
854
01:10:25,680 --> 01:10:30,680
Everybody thought I was going to bow
down to the Messiah in the end.
855
01:10:30,680 --> 01:10:33,890
And then one day,
I just disappeared,
856
01:10:33,890 --> 01:10:37,390
and ended up in Australia
in the end.
857
01:10:48,970 --> 01:10:54,180
Marc Breault,
after he left Mount Carmel,
858
01:10:54,590 --> 01:10:58,050
began trying to get
the authorities to investigate
859
01:10:58,050 --> 01:10:59,680
what was going on there.
860
01:11:03,340 --> 01:11:08,390
Particularly David Koresh
sleeping with underage females.
861
01:11:12,840 --> 01:11:16,430
We tried the
Sheriff's Department in Waco,
862
01:11:16,430 --> 01:11:18,760
we tried anybody who
we thought would listen,
863
01:11:18,760 --> 01:11:21,140
and nobody gave us the time of day.
864
01:11:26,840 --> 01:11:30,840
Finally, the child welfare
authorities looked at the place,
865
01:11:30,840 --> 01:11:32,640
talked to all the parents...
866
01:11:34,430 --> 01:11:37,760
..and could not get any confirmation
867
01:11:37,760 --> 01:11:40,260
of the allegation Marc Breault made.
868
01:11:45,680 --> 01:11:48,430
Marc, he was involved...
869
01:11:50,140 --> 01:11:52,720
..with bringing the authorities
870
01:11:52,720 --> 01:11:55,470
against our group at Waco.
871
01:11:55,470 --> 01:11:59,010
In terms of whether God
had a design for Marc,
872
01:11:59,010 --> 01:12:01,340
you'd be saying the same thing
about Judas.
873
01:12:05,640 --> 01:12:08,340
It's very easy for us
to blame David Koresh.
874
01:12:08,340 --> 01:12:12,340
But we couldn't have found ourselves
in that situation
875
01:12:12,340 --> 01:12:15,890
if we also weren't to blame.
876
01:12:15,890 --> 01:12:19,050
No-one gains absolute power
877
01:12:19,050 --> 01:12:23,390
unless somebody lets him
gain absolute power.
878
01:12:36,140 --> 01:12:38,390
GUNFIRE
879
01:12:40,260 --> 01:12:42,340
OK. Step up here.
880
01:12:43,640 --> 01:12:45,760
You cut loose with that.
881
01:12:45,760 --> 01:12:49,890
OK. When you hear fire,
that's when you open fire.
882
01:12:49,890 --> 01:12:51,640
Ready?
883
01:12:51,640 --> 01:12:52,760
Fire.
884
01:12:59,430 --> 01:13:02,260
It just don't get no better
than this.
885
01:13:16,590 --> 01:13:20,800
We were getting information
that weapons were being converted
886
01:13:20,800 --> 01:13:23,970
to full automatic machine guns.
887
01:13:23,970 --> 01:13:27,260
And that takes them
to a whole new level.
888
01:13:27,260 --> 01:13:30,800
Extremely dangerous,
extremely fast firing
889
01:13:30,800 --> 01:13:32,720
and extremely illegal.
890
01:13:37,300 --> 01:13:40,590
David was going to gun shows
and buying and selling guns,
891
01:13:40,590 --> 01:13:43,180
and found that he could make
some money this way.
892
01:13:43,180 --> 01:13:45,510
We did make illegal weapons.
893
01:13:45,510 --> 01:13:49,470
We had some kind of mill
or something,
894
01:13:49,470 --> 01:13:53,930
that took semi-automatic weapons,
and took some pin out or something
895
01:13:53,930 --> 01:13:56,010
that would make them
fully automatic.
896
01:13:57,050 --> 01:14:02,260
David, whether he had guns simply
to make money on the side,
897
01:14:03,640 --> 01:14:08,260
or whether he had guns
to bring the ATF down on us,
898
01:14:08,260 --> 01:14:11,890
so we could have our final battle,
it doesn't really matter to me.
899
01:14:11,890 --> 01:14:15,430
The bottom line is,
guns were a part of our lives.
900
01:14:16,760 --> 01:14:19,590
So, the guns were good
for money and good for God.
901
01:14:22,680 --> 01:14:27,970
We were also getting information
from a UPS driver
902
01:14:28,180 --> 01:14:30,220
that was delivering this box.
903
01:14:39,180 --> 01:14:43,010
And he sees these dummy
or empty hand grenades.
904
01:14:44,260 --> 01:14:48,720
At that point, that driver contacted
the Sheriff's Office
905
01:14:48,720 --> 01:14:53,010
because the dummy hand grenades
can be activated and made live.
906
01:14:54,590 --> 01:14:59,050
So, we're thinking, what in
the world is a religious cult
907
01:14:59,050 --> 01:15:03,470
doing bringing in hand grenades
and stockpiling weapons?
908
01:15:03,470 --> 01:15:04,890
It was very concerning.
909
01:15:08,180 --> 01:15:10,010
SIREN WAILS
910
01:15:16,640 --> 01:15:21,890
At the time, the ATF had to go
to get its budget renewed
911
01:15:22,010 --> 01:15:24,260
before a Democratic Congress...
912
01:15:26,140 --> 01:15:30,140
..which was preoccupied
with what we call social issues.
913
01:15:31,470 --> 01:15:36,760
Then they get a report that there's
this armed cult in Texas.
914
01:15:39,140 --> 01:15:44,010
The perfect thing to show Congress
when you need budget money.
915
01:15:45,640 --> 01:15:50,800
So the ATF starts looking into
what's going on at Mount Carmel.
916
01:16:07,680 --> 01:16:12,840
There's a lot of what he did which
I never had any involvement in
917
01:16:12,840 --> 01:16:18,090
and some of what I'm hearing now,
I'm hearing for the first time.
918
01:16:18,220 --> 01:16:21,720
But it was, I guess,
a decision of mine,
919
01:16:21,720 --> 01:16:25,590
I didn't want to get involved in
that side of things.
920
01:16:25,590 --> 01:16:30,050
How would you describe David Koresh?
921
01:16:30,050 --> 01:16:32,300
He's everything to all people.
922
01:16:32,300 --> 01:16:34,930
If you're kind to him,
he's kind to you.
923
01:16:34,930 --> 01:16:39,300
But if you're...
Um, you try to deceive him,
924
01:16:39,300 --> 01:16:42,430
or if you try cheating on him, uh...
925
01:16:44,340 --> 01:16:46,550
..he... He, um... What would he do?
926
01:16:49,300 --> 01:16:50,430
I don't know.
927
01:17:16,260 --> 01:17:19,340
The point is,
David's being used by God.
928
01:17:19,340 --> 01:17:21,800
It's a spiritual battle.
929
01:17:21,800 --> 01:17:23,590
And that's what it is.
930
01:17:23,590 --> 01:17:25,050
REPORTERS SHOUTING
931
01:17:25,970 --> 01:17:27,590
One at a time, please.
932
01:17:32,300 --> 01:17:35,220
Sir, we don't comment on
investigative techniques.
933
01:17:35,220 --> 01:17:37,140
I could tell you that. I'm sorry.
934
01:17:50,840 --> 01:17:56,090
In 1992, I was working with
the Department of Public Safety,
935
01:17:56,470 --> 01:17:58,550
and a good friend of mine calls.
936
01:17:58,550 --> 01:18:00,340
"Hey, bro, what you doing, man?"
937
01:18:00,340 --> 01:18:02,590
He said, "I need your help.
938
01:18:02,590 --> 01:18:06,220
"I need somebody to do
undercover work on this cult."
939
01:18:10,390 --> 01:18:15,090
When we got the compound,
it was, like, man...
940
01:18:15,090 --> 01:18:17,010
What is this place?
941
01:18:19,430 --> 01:18:21,090
It was like a fortress.
942
01:18:25,760 --> 01:18:29,800
So, the ATF rented a house
across from the compound.
943
01:18:32,890 --> 01:18:34,760
We set up cameras in the house.
944
01:18:34,760 --> 01:18:37,550
CAMERA SHUTTER CLICKS
945
01:18:37,550 --> 01:18:42,720
And we also made up a story
that we were all roommates.
946
01:18:44,510 --> 01:18:48,260
We knew who he was. We knew that
he wasn't a college student.
947
01:18:48,260 --> 01:18:53,470
David knew that he just wanted to
see how many illegal weapons we had.
948
01:18:53,640 --> 01:18:56,140
But yet he was still trying
to give him a message.
949
01:18:57,550 --> 01:18:59,140
That's the way David was.
950
01:18:59,140 --> 01:19:02,840
He would have taught Satan himself
if he would have let him.
951
01:19:09,140 --> 01:19:11,930
So, I went in to meet
with David Koresh.
952
01:19:14,300 --> 01:19:19,550
It was just he and I
and one of his soldiers.
953
01:19:20,430 --> 01:19:23,590
In case I did something crazy.
954
01:19:23,590 --> 01:19:27,090
But here, the revelator says,
the next bit for Christians
955
01:19:27,090 --> 01:19:31,140
to look forward to is there's
going to be a judgment in heaven.
956
01:19:31,140 --> 01:19:35,430
It was a constant bombardment
on the Bible.
957
01:19:37,050 --> 01:19:39,640
And he would get upset
if I did not follow properly.
958
01:19:41,010 --> 01:19:43,470
Now, if you set against
the Holy Spirit,
959
01:19:43,470 --> 01:19:45,470
can it be forgiven?
960
01:19:45,470 --> 01:19:50,640
And I would try to, you know,
kind of daydream.
961
01:19:50,800 --> 01:19:53,390
But I had to come back,
because all of a sudden
962
01:19:53,390 --> 01:19:55,090
he would say, go ahead and read.
963
01:19:58,390 --> 01:20:00,140
Man, I was wasted.
964
01:20:02,680 --> 01:20:07,140
I think Robert Rodriguez
was becoming converted
965
01:20:07,140 --> 01:20:10,050
to what David was teaching him.
966
01:20:10,050 --> 01:20:12,220
I think part of Robert Rodriguez
967
01:20:12,220 --> 01:20:16,140
was starting to believe
what David was saying.
968
01:20:16,140 --> 01:20:17,890
I couldn't stand him.
969
01:20:17,890 --> 01:20:20,510
I'm sorry to say,
I just did not like him.
970
01:20:20,510 --> 01:20:23,430
Because, to me, he was a fake.
971
01:20:23,430 --> 01:20:25,680
But I was there to play a role.
972
01:20:43,140 --> 01:20:45,010
One day he told me, he said,
973
01:20:45,010 --> 01:20:48,300
"Robert, people think
I am the Messiah."
974
01:20:48,300 --> 01:20:49,890
He said, "What do you think?"
975
01:20:50,930 --> 01:20:55,390
And I looked at him and I hated
myself for doing this later,
976
01:20:55,390 --> 01:20:58,970
but I put my arm around him
and said, "I don't know, David.
977
01:20:58,970 --> 01:21:01,720
"But your words are so strong."
978
01:21:01,720 --> 01:21:04,260
And he says, "That's good enough."
979
01:21:04,260 --> 01:21:05,510
SIGHING: Oh, God!
980
01:21:05,510 --> 01:21:07,220
You see, another test, you know!
981
01:21:14,550 --> 01:21:19,430
David told us, because of the
prophecies that we knew were coming,
982
01:21:19,430 --> 01:21:21,390
that it wasn't going
to be much longer
983
01:21:21,390 --> 01:21:26,090
before the government
ended our time.
984
01:21:27,760 --> 01:21:30,970
I remember him saying
that we were going to get raided,
985
01:21:30,970 --> 01:21:35,050
and him talking about a siege.
986
01:21:35,050 --> 01:21:37,090
Police cars surrounding
the property.
987
01:21:38,340 --> 01:21:41,340
I remember he mentioned
that we could all end up getting
988
01:21:41,340 --> 01:21:42,430
burnt to death.
989
01:21:45,680 --> 01:21:49,390
So David said, "Let's just enjoy
this last summer.
990
01:21:49,390 --> 01:21:51,890
"This is probably going to be
our last summer on Earth."
991
01:22:10,510 --> 01:22:14,550
The Davidians,
they were there to die.
992
01:22:14,550 --> 01:22:18,590
So, I told the ATF,
you have to hit them quick.
993
01:22:18,590 --> 01:22:21,220
We had to catch them off guard.
994
01:22:44,590 --> 01:22:45,760
Don't film me!
995
01:22:47,510 --> 01:22:52,220
The ATF wanted a raid,
it wanted a raid on film.
996
01:22:52,220 --> 01:22:56,180
It wanted to be able to go
before Congress and say,
997
01:22:56,180 --> 01:22:59,180
"We busted an armed
fundamentalist sect."
998
01:23:06,680 --> 01:23:10,390
The operation itself was called
Operation Trojan Horse.
999
01:23:10,390 --> 01:23:14,090
And some agents
were calling it Showtime.
1000
01:23:16,720 --> 01:23:19,090
You know, we approached
the team leaders
1001
01:23:19,090 --> 01:23:22,970
and asked them, well, what happens
if something goes astray?
1002
01:23:22,970 --> 01:23:24,550
What is Plan B?
1003
01:23:26,050 --> 01:23:30,340
And the response that was given
to us was, run like hell.
1004
01:23:37,890 --> 01:23:43,090
The morning of the raid,
the local media had been tipped off.
1005
01:23:47,300 --> 01:23:48,680
was going to take place.
1006
01:23:53,590 --> 01:23:56,720
My dad was a postman,
1007
01:23:56,720 --> 01:24:00,340
and a newsperson got lost,
1008
01:24:00,340 --> 01:24:03,720
and had asked him if they knew
where Mount Carmel was
1009
01:24:03,720 --> 01:24:05,430
and what they were doing.
1010
01:24:05,430 --> 01:24:09,010
And that was when my dad turned
around and went straight
1011
01:24:09,010 --> 01:24:12,680
to Mount Carmel and told David,
and warned everybody about it.
1012
01:24:18,510 --> 01:24:22,050
The element of surprise
was paramount, I think,
1013
01:24:22,050 --> 01:24:25,050
for this raid to go on effectively.
1014
01:24:37,760 --> 01:24:39,470
For once in my life, I was scared.
1015
01:24:41,180 --> 01:24:42,550
How am I going to do this?
1016
01:24:43,930 --> 01:24:47,930
And then one of his followers
comes in and says,
1017
01:24:47,930 --> 01:24:49,260
"You have a phone call."
1018
01:24:50,640 --> 01:24:54,260
He gets up real quick,
and goes and leaves.
1019
01:25:08,590 --> 01:25:11,840
And then when he comes back,
everything changed.
1020
01:25:11,840 --> 01:25:13,510
Everything changed.
1021
01:25:16,760 --> 01:25:21,800
And he says, "They're coming,
Robert, they're coming."
1022
01:25:26,550 --> 01:25:30,720
And all this time
I'm thinking, relax.
1023
01:25:30,720 --> 01:25:31,890
Relax.
1024
01:25:37,180 --> 01:25:40,140
And that's when he just
comes up to me,
1025
01:25:40,140 --> 01:25:41,390
"OK, Rob."
1026
01:25:41,390 --> 01:25:43,180
He says, "Good luck."
1027
01:25:44,390 --> 01:25:46,760
And I looked at him
and said, I said...
1028
01:25:46,760 --> 01:25:48,340
"Good luck, David."
1029
01:25:48,340 --> 01:25:49,930
I said that to him.
1030
01:25:51,680 --> 01:25:53,680
And I turned and started walking.
1031
01:25:57,760 --> 01:25:59,680
And the first thing I felt was,
1032
01:25:59,680 --> 01:26:01,970
"Oh, they're going to shoot me
in the back.
1033
01:26:01,970 --> 01:26:03,890
"I know they're going
to shoot me in the back."
1034
01:26:11,140 --> 01:26:15,550
But, no, I get to the truck,
and my hands were shaking so hard.
1035
01:26:15,550 --> 01:26:17,220
ENGINE STARTS
1036
01:26:19,340 --> 01:26:23,260
I knew I had just faced death
1037
01:26:23,260 --> 01:26:25,470
and it just passed me by.
1038
01:26:28,220 --> 01:26:29,970
POLICE RADIO BLEEPS
1039
01:26:31,720 --> 01:26:36,890
I went back to the ATF and I said,
"He knows we're coming."
1040
01:26:58,220 --> 01:27:03,390
The information that was relayed
to us was that they know
1041
01:27:03,390 --> 01:27:06,930
we're coming, hurry up, we're going.
1042
01:27:10,300 --> 01:27:14,140
Well, obviously if the element
of surprise was the paramount factor
1043
01:27:14,140 --> 01:27:16,970
for a successful raid plan,
1044
01:27:16,970 --> 01:27:19,010
then we certainly were doing
the wrong thing.
1045
01:27:20,680 --> 01:27:23,390
The mission
should have been aborted.
1046
01:27:23,390 --> 01:27:26,340
SIREN BLARES, VOICE OVER RADIO
1047
01:27:26,340 --> 01:27:31,590
The ATF didn't realise what kind
of people they were dealing with.
1048
01:27:33,180 --> 01:27:36,300
Everybody's belief was that strong,
1049
01:27:36,300 --> 01:27:40,590
and everybody was willing to die
for what they believed in.
1050
01:27:41,590 --> 01:27:44,840
That's just how it was,
from the beginning to the very end.
1051
01:27:46,140 --> 01:27:47,800
SIREN WAILS
1052
01:27:53,680 --> 01:27:55,550
Come here, quick,
get out of the way!
1053
01:27:57,720 --> 01:28:00,640
Before you're going to raid
somebody,
1054
01:28:00,640 --> 01:28:02,930
you've got to learn who you're
dealing with.
1055
01:28:02,930 --> 01:28:05,590
GUNFIRE
1056
01:28:05,590 --> 01:28:07,760
SIRENS BLARE
1057
01:28:07,760 --> 01:28:12,760
Everyone in that building
had complete devotion,
1058
01:28:12,760 --> 01:28:15,550
to doing God's will
before man's will.
1059
01:28:24,970 --> 01:28:27,090
because he didn't expect
to get out of there.
1060
01:28:29,140 --> 01:28:32,430
This is definitely not what
the FBI had intended.
1061
01:28:32,430 --> 01:28:35,010
They did NOT want to burn the people
inside that building.
1062
01:28:35,010 --> 01:28:37,180
EXPLOSION
1063
01:28:39,970 --> 01:28:42,840
I said, "God, you're not going
to wipe them out, are you?"
1064
01:28:42,840 --> 01:28:44,550
And he said, "Yes."
1065
01:28:45,550 --> 01:28:46,840
And I wept.
1066
01:28:46,840 --> 01:28:48,840
All the skin's rolling off my hands.
1067
01:28:48,840 --> 01:28:52,680
It's not blistering,
it's kind of just rolling off.
1068
01:28:52,680 --> 01:28:55,180
I should not have come out.
I should have died in the fire.
1069
01:29:01,390 --> 01:29:04,010
KORESH: I'm in big, big trouble
with you people.
1070
01:29:04,010 --> 01:29:08,430
But you know something else,
what really grieves me,
1071
01:29:08,430 --> 01:29:11,840
is that if this Bible is true,
1072
01:29:11,840 --> 01:29:15,050
you are in a lot more trouble
than me.
83430
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