Original subtitles

I told you about the video. It's for your attorneys.

- Huh? Oh, right. - It's your attorneys.

Isn't that wonderful?

- Can you...? - I had no idea. This is fantastic.

- You're good. - Oh, this is wonderful. Yes.

- Okay. Can you hear us good? - Yes.

- You can hear good? - Thrilled to meet you.

Nice to meet you, Marjorie.

Well, are we ready to roll?

I'm a normal woman. I shop at the mall. I rescue dogs and cats.

I'm a good cook, and I'm... I'm pretty normal.

I'm not... I'm not Miss Congeniality, but I'm not the worst one either.

I'm bipolar. I have my highs and I have my lows.

Hey, but you know what? Lincoln was bipolar. Churchill was bipolar.

Um... Some great writers and musicians are bipolar.

I have a genius IQ. I don't have...

This is the only on-camera interview

Marjorie Diehl-Armstrong has ever done.

It's a video conference I arranged as part of our new deal.

Marjorie would tell me about the bank heist

if I got her an attorney to discuss legal issues.

What sign are you? When's your birthday?

I'm an Aries.

The moon's in Aries today, that'd figure.

The moon's in Aries. You were born in the Chinese year of the dog.

Help me, because they can't get too much more of an underdog than me.

Let's talk about the James... The James Roden case first, okay?

I shot and killed James Roden.

I'm not gonna lie about anything that I did do,

and I admit I did it, and I'm sorry that it happened.

Why did you shoot Roden? The motive?

He was in my home, threatened to kill me,

he'd been doing this for ten years.

And he had me out of my mind. I couldn't take it anymore.

I couldn't take it anymore, and everybody has a breaking point!

I wasn't evil. I didn't get a penny. I didn't want him dead.

- I loved him. - When did you first...?

Roden's death didn't have anything to do with the Wells case.

Why was...? Why was the body put in a freezer?

- What was the logic, if any, behind that? - I don't know.

Bill Rothstein says to me, "This is why..." Listen, I'll tell you.

Bill Rothstein says to me:

"I can't get him out till I finish my business project."

Come to find out now, I think his business project was the Wells case.

My relationship with Marjorie began before this interview.

We started communicating in early 2005,

a year and a half after the bank heist.

This is one of the first letters I got from Marge.

I was finally able to ask her what she meant

by that outburst after her preliminary hearing.

Rothstein will be sued, he's a filthy liar.

What about Rothstein?

Rothstein should be charged with the murder of Brian Wells

and a lot of other charges.

All she would tell me

is she assumed Bill was the mastermind of the heist

because he needed money to settle his family's estate.

Marge wanted me to know

she had nothing to do with the heist, and had never been on the FBI's radar.

But that was about to change.

Because around the time she started writing me,

Marjorie has also written a "to whom it may concern" letter to police.

I was assigned to the Polygraph Unit out of Erie when it occurred.

There was a letter authored. It was from Marjorie Diehl.

Marjorie was trying to bargain with the police.

She offered to give information about a cold case, unrelated to the heist,

that involved an old fishing buddy of hers, a guy named Ken Barnes.

But her information was just a rumor.

So, Marjorie came up with a new plan because...

She wanted to move from Muncy to Cambridge Springs.

She wanted to get over here closer to her money and her attorney.

The attorney didn't want to drive down to Muncy to talk with her.

She started saying, "I have information about other crimes,"

and that's why we went over.

That letter was probably our saving grace to get her to start talking.

She brought up about the Pizza Bomber.

She said, "I know Bill Rothstein's involved in it."

She didn't say, "I believe he's involved," she said, "I know he's involved."

I believe she said there was another person involved with him,

and that he was keeping really close to the case,

and he was, like, infatuated with the case.

He knew more than the police did, in case he got talked to on it.

I couldn't get her to give me, you know, why she knew.

"Marjorie, how do you know this?" She wouldn't give that up.

She controlled the interview, it was easy for her.

All she had to do was walk away or say, "I'm not talking anymore."

Back in 2003, after the frozen-body case was over,

state police removed the contents from Marjorie's house

and put it all into storage.

Here's another horse.

Now that Marge was the focus of the bank robbery case,

Trooper Gluth offered the items to the FBI.

For days, investigators sifted through the junk, and finally,

in one of the last boxes, they found a clue.

An angry letter Marge had written to a bank.

Apparently, the manager let Marge's dad empty out a family safety-deposit box

that contained valuables belonging to Marge.

Marge was furious with her dad and the bank,

which was PNC Bank, the same bank Brian Wells robbed.

I think Marjorie had an ax to grind against PNC Bank.

How would that make Marjorie feel? She'd been done wrong.

Her inheritance from her mom never came to her, and they were rude to her.

I had interviewed a ton of people in my career, but Marjorie was...

unique.

We sign in, check in all our guns and badges,

and we're taken down a long hallway.

And to this day...

it still reminds me of Silence of the Lambs,

where Clarice Starling's walking down this dark, dingy hallway

to interview Hannibal Lecter.

And we walk in, and we have a very small room.

And all of a sudden, you know,

lieutenant brings her in and she sits down,

and I'm looking right at her and I thought, "Oh, my goodness."

This is her. This is Marjorie Diehl-Armstrong.

And, uh, it started out with, you know, "What do you want?"

Every time we went to interview Marjorie,

the first minute was her yelling at us.

She would scream, yell obscenities at us. Um, "Why are you guys here?"

Jerry would always compliment her and say:

"You look good," and she'd calm down.

She would calm down and say, "Thank you, Jerry.

- How can I help you guys today?" - One of the first things she says is:

"I'll talk to you about the Wells case,

but only if you move me closer to Erie."

And I said, "Well, Marjorie, I'll see what I can do, but I'm in the federal system,

you're in the state system.

I'll make calls and see if we can have that happen."

Just like Mr. Rothstein, very manipulative, uh, very intelligent.

She was very careful with her words.

The first interview, she felt us out as much as we were feeling her out.

She would give you answers that were very... limited,

very shallow, hoping that we would accept them and go away.

We never did. We kept coming back.

A few weeks after Marjorie asked the FBI to move her

to a prison closer to Erie, they actually arranged for a transfer,

anticipating she'd provide new information about the heist.

But she didn't. She just kept implicating Bill Rothstein.

Now, here's a letter, um, from her, from Muncy prison.

I admit I wondered a few times, why was I building rapport with this person,

a criminal who'd murdered two boyfriends

and whose husband died in a suspicious home accident?

Plus, there was her questionable mental state.

You know, she includes sometimes...

Like, look, this is just... This is some... An inclusion.

It's like some red paper with a horse,

and, like, a sticker from an orange, Florida orange.

It says something like, "Please keep. Thanks."

But she promised to tell me secrets about the heist,

and now we started talking.

You're an angel of mercy. I don't know, it's just like,

I really do appreciate from the bottom of my heart everything you've done.

And those books really do distract me from this hellhole here.

So, for years, I would carry this bag around my waist.

People were like, "What is that?

You're walking around, uh, now with a fanny pack?"

And, you know, would carry a variety of recorders,

and would...

record all the calls with Marge,

listening to Marge through the years.

Most of the time she was...

professing her innocence.

But Marge finally did come through on her end of our deal. Told me something new.

It was a story about a blue van at Bill Rothstein's house.

Marge thought it was suspicious that Bill, immediately after the heist,

had towed the blue van away,

and then didn't tow it back until after he'd been cleared as a suspect.

Tell me a little bit about this Astro van, please.

All right, I thought you knew about that.

Anyway, yeah, he was driving it.

He was driving it then. I saw him.

And, uh...

Now do you think that the Astro van

was the car that Bill was driving around on August 28th?

Yes. Yes, I do.

One of them. I think he was switching cars.

When I tell you he was driving that car that day, I know that for a fucking fact.

I saw him with my own eyes. I'm not making up shit to you.

This is the truth.

It dawned on me.

There was a blue van in Rothstein's driveway when I tried to interview him.

So, when I talked with the state trooper, Lamont King,

who had seen a van leave the last scavenger hunt site of the bank heist,

I asked if Lamont would look at my video.

When I see the picture of the blue van, uh, it just really, uh...

Like I said, I didn't hear anything about it until, uh, Trey sent it to me.

And I'm thinking, "That's the van."

There's no doubt in my mind that's the van I saw that day.

Is it safe to think you were driving around with Rothstein on that day?

I'm not gonna say that. People wanna believe that if I know all that,

then I was in on the plot. And I wasn't! I absolutely wasn't!

I had no idea what the hell they were doing.

I thought it had something to do with it.

And when I talked to Trey, he shocked the daylights out of me,

because he brought the van up

and because the van was never ever mentioned again.

We missed things.

We did. We missed things that came back later on

that said, "We could've had that a month afterward. We're nine months afterward,

or a year after, and we're getting it now." Because we missed it.

We decided to start over, basically,

and read every report generated by every investigator in this case.

I'm watching the walk-through video of Bill Rothstein's garage.

They scan across, and they show a diagram that was on his desk, a drawing.

I thought, "Where have I seen that little arrow that makes a turn?"

I went back to the device photos, and it was right on that photo,

and I thought, "Jason, take a look at this."

You go where the evidence and investigation lead you,

and if it keeps coming back around,

coincidence don't happen in homicide investigations.

Mr. Rothstein, we believe, built the device.

He was very careful not to purchase anything, very careful to dispose of tools

that he may have used.

He believed that he was smarter than the police.

So, he put things in place just to play mind games

and to manipulate, more than anything.

Wanna look through the notes again? Anything else?

- You've never seen them like this? - No. No.

I'll pull up to...

This is the first... This is like the note to Brian Wells.

And then there was this indented writing found on the back of one of the notes.

That's his, without a doubt.

Without a doubt in my mind, that's his writing.

That note underneath the note? That's definitely his handwriting.

I'd swear on Bibles that's his handwriting.

That was a shock.

Because you always have in your mind, he's innocent,

that he... He couldn't do this.

You know, "This isn't the Bill I know. This isn't the Bill I know and love."

And yet to see that, it was like:

"Holy cripe. Somebody pulled the plug out of my heart."

I mean, you know, there's... There's innuendos,

there's things that you can look at and say, "Yes, no, maybe."

But that's a fact.

I mean, there it is, right on the back of one of the ransom notes,

and it definitely is his writing.

We can make excuses for him?

Not anymore.

Yeah.

I don't know what happened to him.

I mean, 40 years. The guy's part of my life for 30, 40 years.

I feel like I didn't know my best friend.

In my opinion, Bill Rothstein concocted,

you know, the scavenger hunt, uh, the device.

Of course, we'll never know all these details, but, uh, I believe

he has most of those answers, which we may never know.

He had a saying:

"You fuck with the master, you fuck with disaster."

This alter ego was a really dark personality.

Bill Rothstein has actually masterminded and beat the feds.

He has beat the feds.

He outsmarted them.

Marge kept insisting she had nothing to do with the heist.

And I believed her for a few months.

Until the summer of 2005, when several national TV shows went to Erie,

and they dug up some new clues.

This is Fox News. Breaking developments that could crack wide open

one of the nation's most bizarre mysteries.

Professor Sedwick said he was driving south on I-79,

not far from the bank robbery site, the day Brian Wells died.

I saw at a distance, maybe a half mile away,

a gold car driving on the berm, coming at me at full highway speed.

It was a woman. She made full eye contact with me.

And she had a really unusual set of eyes.

The woman was Marjorie Diehl-Armstrong.

If that scenario is true,

that would be a significant follow-up... Avenue to be explored.

I'd love you to talk to him. He claims he called

law enforcement agencies, spoken over the telephone,

but never been formally interviewed.

At our suggestion, Erie District Attorney Brad Foulk

called the FBI's local office from his phone.

Okay, Geraldo's asking if we had ever met or heard of,

or, uh, had talked to that fella.

They had not, but they would now.

He said he will do it personally.

He's in charge now that Rudge is in Pittsburgh. He's in Erie.

- He's in Erie? - Mr. Clark?

Clark. Yes, Jerry Clark.

Marjorie Diehl-Armstrong only would admit that she was on the highway.

Didn't know where she was going, what she was doing,

and denied going the wrong way, but did say she was out there.

And, again, it was because witnesses had observed her,

so she couldn't deny that and wouldn't.

But the reason she was out there was, again, nothing related to the case.

Geraldo Rivera came to town and made a comment

that we were inexperienced, didn't know what we were doing

and we were foolish for not knowing who committed the crime.

Will this Pizza Bomber case ever be solved?

That was one of the most difficult parts of the investigation.

People in the community saying, "If they don't know it's these people,

then they should be delivering pizzas."

We think the solution to this riddle lies close to home.

You know, my response to him would be:

"What you know and what you can prove are two different things."

You can certainly know who committed a crime and believe it.

Uh, but you have elements of proof you have to present in court,

sometimes you have it, sometimes not.

And at that point in time, I believe we had a good direction,

uh, but were working on gathering proof to prove it in court.

So, this was after the... I think after the Geraldo special.

I said, "You must be overwhelmed." She says:

"You are certainly right that I am overwhelmed, livid, and in need of help.

I am outraged to be accused with slander and libel.

My lawyer is suing Geraldo Rivera and his show."

Let's go to the pizza bombing... Pizza Bomber case.

- Yeah, yeah. - Who...? Who built...?

Who built the bomb that killed Brian Wells?

I don't know, but I would guess, if I was gonna guess,

it'd be William Rothstein

because he's been bragging about building bombs.

That's one reason I broke my engagement off with him.

Do you think that when Rothstein died, that helped or hurt your case?

Well, at first I was really happy.

Because I have a belief in karma, and they think I'm crazy,

but you know what? They've died right on time, so you tell me if I'm crazy.

I'm Michael Thomas Vogt, and I'm employed at United Parcel Service.

That night was America's Most Wanted on TV.

When we watched, my son looked at me and said, "You need to call."

I didn't call America's Most Wanted. I didn't want notoriety. I called the FBI.

One of the key pieces of evidence is

the observation of Marjorie Diehl-Armstrong

and Bill Rothstein at the pay phone

where we know the call was made ordering the pizzas that day.

And I started out that day doing my normal daily activities for work.

As I drove past the gas station,

I noticed a large man standing at the pay phone with bib overalls on.

I commented to myself, you know, "Nice bibs," 'cause the day was hot.

I saw Mrs. Diehl-Armstrong standing there.

As I got closer to her, she turned and looked at me.

You know, we met, our eyes met.

When she looked at me,

it was a sight that I didn't forget. To this day I won't forget it.

She was smart enough to know if somebody saw her at the Shell station,

she was not gonna be able to deny that. So, what she would do is say:

"I was at the Shell station, but why I was there was for a different reason."

I was positioned to be up at the Shell gas station that day by Rothstein.

He was meeting me because he was my codefendant on the Roden case.

I'm an intelligent woman. I have the equivalent of five college degrees.

I was top of my high school class, commencement speaker. I am not a thief.

I am not a bank robber. I had money. I wasn't going to do something like that.

What's the best evidence that you know of

at this point in time that shows that you're innocent?

There's no physical evidence against me. And I'm not a master criminal.

If I had done this, there would be physical evidence against me.

And I don't want people thinking I'm blowing up pizza guys,

and I don't want them thinking I'm a bank robber.

I didn't do the crime. I really didn't do the crime.

It's the truth.

One of the big breaks, and it was something the FBI played on well...

is the girls that were in prison.

And there was three or four different girls that gave big information.

Every one of the ladies in jail that Marge would talk to said

she shot, uh, Jim Roden

because he was gonna uncover the pizza bomb plot.

One of them even kept notes.

I mean, she'd write down notes in front of Marge.

This was an astonishing development.

Inmate Kelly Makela, back in 2003,

while being interviewed for the frozen-body investigation,

gave Erie police officers notes she took while talking to Marge.

Those notes revealed information not just about the James Roden killing

but also about the bank heist.

I've given you the truth. I've tried to do my best with the notes and everything.

With that, we are gonna end this interview right now at 12:15 p.m.,

- and we'll go to the next step. Okay? - Okay.

Kelly had repeatedly asked police to get these notes to the FBI,

but that never happened.

For some unknown reason, the notes were stuffed in a drawer

in a file marked "Snitch Letters."

Why information wasn't disseminated earlier

obtained during the Roden investigation that could've helped us,

I don't know. I mean, there's always that feud between

the federal government and state and local.

It's unfortunate, but it does happen. Uh, was that a part of it?

I don't know. Possibly. It would have been nice to have earlier than we had it.

The snitch letters were turned over to the FBI.

They contained stunning details.

Kelly Makela wrote that Marjorie told her Rothstein built the neck bomb.

Floyd Stockton, Bill Rothstein's roommate who had been cleared by the FBI,

was definitely involved in the heist.

And that the heist was linked to the frozen-body case.

But the most astounding detail?

Marge mentioned Brian Wells.

"It's not like we didn't measure his neck for the collar."

It wasn't a dramatic thing. It was just another sentence to her.

And Kelly and I shot each other a look at that time.

And I got up and walked away from the table.

And Kelly came up behind me, you know, a little bit later.

I was just pacing the room. We weren't allowed to do much of anything else.

And I was just walking around the room, and Kelly goes:

"Did you hear what she just said?" And I looked at her and I said:

"About measuring Brian Wells for the collar? Yes, I did."

I said, "I don't wanna know any more."

I absolutely believe that Marjorie Diehl-Armstrong is

the mastermind behind the Brian Wells killing.

Marjorie, um, wanted them all dead.

Every one. Jerry Clark, Jason Wick and Kelly Makela.

Who said that you confessed?

All of them. The stupid inmates saying:

"Oh, yes, she said she and Bill called in the pizzas."

They are saying that killing... I killed Roden to shut him up

because I wanted him to be a getaway driver and he was gonna go to the police.

That's what they're saying. I am not the Pizza Bomber.

Every day of my life I have to be in here with these crazy women.

Scummy drug addicts, dope fiends, and they accuse me of being a Pizza Bomber,

- and I cuss them. - Let me get this straight.

It's important. You're saying you hadn't heard anything

about this plan to rob a bank using Brian Wells and this bomb

prior to the day that Brian Wells was killed?

Exactly. Till it happened. It was on television when I got home that night.

And they both screwed it up, and they focused on me, an old woman,

an old rich woman, and said I was a bomber and a bank robber. Give me a damn break.

Do I look like a freaking terrorist freak? I mean, come on. It's... It is nuts.

Initially, we interviewed Mr. Stockton at a prison in Washington State.

In my opinion, watching his demeanor, body language, verbiage,

the things he said he didn't say, um, he had a lot of information.

He became upset with me because I would push and dig,

and in my opinion, in my experience, in my, you know...

Of the interviews I've conducted, he exhibited behavior consistent

with having a lot of information but refusing or hesitating to tell.

And he'd give answers that were shallow on the surface,

but wouldn't give us detailed information.

He just refused to talk about it at that point.

Even with all these new developments,

Marjorie still wasn't concerned.

She said no one would believe prison snitches. They were all just lying.

As for those reports she'd been seen near the heist?

Marge claimed she'd been shopping along Peach Street the day of the robbery.

She was confident no one could ever tie her to the death of Brian Wells.

Trooper Gluth brought Mr. Barnes to our attention, to his credit.

He knew that Mr. Barnes and Ms. Diehl were acquaintances.

Ken Barnes?

Talked a lot to Ken.

Ken, uh, I think, likes to embellish a little bit.

He bolstered himself as "Cocaine Ken."

That's... That's one of the names he gave himself.

Ken was a manipulator.

Marjorie Diehl-Armstrong and Ken Barnes met at the south pier here in Erie,

which is a real, you know, well-known fishing area,

and they were fishing buddies.

So, they had a long history together.

They... They had competing personalities in ways,

but they were attracted to each other for some reason.

Mr. Gluth interviewed Mr. Barnes first by himself

and came back to us and reported:

"Hey, I like this guy. I think he has info."

Ken had a connection to Brian Wells that

they had a mutual friend that was a prostitute.

Jessica Hoopsick was the friend,

the mutual friend that both Ken and Brian associated with.

Brian Wells would drive Jessica Hoopsick

to purchase crack cocaine from Ken Barnes.

Actually consummate their sexual transaction

on the second floor of Mr. Barnes's residence.

Mr. Wells would pay Jessica Hoopsick for the transaction.

Jessica Hoopsick would then buy crack cocaine from Ken Barnes.

In effect, it was basically one-stop shopping.

All three were happy with the deal, and it worked out for everybody.

She frequented this West 18th Street area.

So, we would drive up and down, and back and forth,

uh, ad nauseam, quite honestly, trying to find her.

I believe she knows more. I think she has more information about Brian Wells.

I think she knows a lot more than she divulged.

Ken Barnes being brought into the investigation,

there was a search of his house.

There it is right there. 617, Ken's house.

You name it, you found it in that house.

We conducted a search warrant in there, and there was so much junk

and so many things just stacked on top of each other,

you had no idea if you were standing on the floor or not.

Yeah.

The front living room, you had to walk up on a mound of computer towers.

A lot of it was computer stuff intermixed with dog feces.

Go upstairs, there was a mattress in the middle of the floor

where he either slept or the area prostitutes would turn tricks at.

We didn't find anything in Barnes's house that linked him

to making the collar bomb, but we did find a lot of different magazines

on building electronics that could be utilized in an explosive device.

We also found two dogs, Gizmo and Peanuts.

And they were so infested and their health was so poor

that we had to have them put down by the vet.

There were several interviews I did with Ken,

and every time you talked to him, you got a different piece that he'd give you.

On the second interview, he finally said, yeah, Marjorie did solicit him

to do the bank robbery and to kill her dad.

Her father was giving away what she thought was her inheritance.

It was confirmed he was giving money to neighbors to buy cars,

and she became upset and solicited Mr. Barnes to kill him.

Her motive was to rob the bank, to acquire money to pay Barnes to kill her father.

He claims he was never going to follow through with the murder,

um, but... who knows?

Ken Barnes's claim that Marge wanted to rob a bank

to get him money to kill her dad sounded outlandish.

But this was not the first time Ken told that story.

Back in 2003, during the frozen-body investigation,

Ken reported Marge wanted to hire him as a hit man.

But again, for some unknown reason,

police never passed that information along to the FBI.

I got the tapes and stuff from the interviews and looked at those.

She asked me if I'd kill her dad. I said, "Why?"

Just like that? "Would you kill my dad?"

Yeah. There was more money in the estate that was to be willed to her when he dies.

And she said he'd been giving

sums of $100,000 donated to the church

and giving it away to all his friends.

Hundreds of thousands of dollars?

Yeah. She said that he's giving away her inheritance, and she was obsessed with it.

And, of course, I was just joking with her and I said:

"Well, Margie, that will cost you."

She goes, "How much?" I said, "Quarter million."

And I was playing with her, and I said, "I want half up front."

I said I wanted $100,000 up front.

Just playing with her, I won't kill nobody.

- You won't kill anybody... - No, I'd never kill anybody.

I hate to kill bugs. I don't like to kill flies.

Hell, I cry when people shoot deers, you know.

I mean, I like to eat venison, but I don't like to... You know?

No doubt in your mind she wanted you to kill him?

Yeah, she was serious about that, she wanted that money.

Like I say, I'd never kill anybody.

I wanted to see if she'd be stupid enough to give me money.

But she actually said, "I would like you to kill my dad?"

Yeah. And she said... She said she'd give me the details,

layout of the house, all that stuff later.

Oh, please. Ken Barnes is so stupid.

Do you believe this? Do you believe this?

Here I am, I've killed two boyfriends...

In self-defense, but I've killed two boyfriends, right?

Would I have to hire Ken Barnes to kill my father

if I hated my father and wanted him dead?

Or would I do it for free myself? Come on! Be reasonable.

They have nothing on me, nothing in writing, nothing in video,

nothing in voice. I didn't confess to anybody 'cause I didn't do it.

And trying to give me nothing and take it all...

Is your father still living?

See, each of... Each one of these is gonna be big and red like that.

I didn't tell Marge this, because I didn't know how she would react,

but I went to visit her dad.

I wanted to know how he felt about the news that his daughter wanted him dead.

You have become what the FBI believes to be the motive.

You know, your life.

- Oh, yeah. - Your death.

I... I heard rumors that she at one time was gonna have me killed, so...

'Cause she knew I had some money and I owned property.

Yeah, but she's not even in my will because of... Because of that.

Harold told me he and Marge were close when she was little,

fishing together when he wasn't on the road selling aluminum siding.

His wife Agnes, a schoolteacher, who died in 2000,

had really doted on Marge, their only child.

So, when Marge started behaving oddly,

started hoarding, her parents were heartsick.

I'm not sure they understood Marjorie had a serious mental illness.

She's not crazy, but...

She...

She ain't 100 percent all there either.

In my estimation.

Harold admitted they had spoiled Marge.

She couldn't hold down a job, so they gave her money.

She bought two houses and some land where she kept a classic car.

Marge didn't take care of any of it.

After she got in trouble with the law, Harold stopped giving Marge money.

He started giving the fortune he'd saved,

around a million dollars, to friends and neighbors.

I don't wanna give her any money because that's just a tool

to make her commit more crimes.

I don't have a hell of a lot to do...

and if I ain't helping somebody...

well, then I don't know what to do.

Do you ever think about good times that you had with Marjorie,

you know, back when she was a young girl and...?

Were you proud of her because she was an A student?

Oh, sure, I was proud of her, but I...

If she told me something, I couldn't very well believe her anyway

because she was a good liar.

She, uh...

She'd come around if she wanted something, and that's all.

And she didn't...

She didn't know the meaning of love.

Look how small this one is. Holy cow.

Look at that.

Marge was now obsessed with Ken Barnes.

In almost every letter and phone call,

she tried to convince me that he was lying about her.

And now she had a new theory as to who masterminded the heist.

I didn't know this, but he had gotten in to conspiracy

with Ken Barnes to do this crime.

You think... You think Barnes and Rothstein were the masterminds

- of the pizza bombing case, is that right? - Yes.

Yes. Of course I think

that Bill Rothstein has much more intelligence than Kenneth Barnes does.

I could see it coming that I was gonna get framed, and I was scared of that.

Marjorie, you say you're being framed. Who's framing you?

Myself, Jerry, Marjorie, and her lawyer decided to go on a vehicle ride

for her to explain the activities and her whereabouts the day of the collar bomb.

Marjorie, what about Ken Barnes? Are you worried he'll rat you out?

Why did you kill Jim Roden? Was it to silence him in the Wells case?

Did you...? Were you the mastermind behind this Brian Wells case?

- Right to that one. - I wasn't even involved.

- You weren't involved? - I did nothing.

- You didn't do the collar bomb? - Nothing. I'm innocent.

Who's framing you?

Was Bill Rothstein the mastermind?

Bill Rothstein and the government are framing me, okay?

And the rest of these lying, perjuring witnesses.

Rothstein's dead. Can't defend himself.

There's no evidence.

On that day, she was just, I think, glad to be out of prison.

Said, "Marge, you'd like something to eat?" "Yeah, let's get, uh,

something at the country fair." We stopped.

Marjorie asked for some pretzels.

So, I went in, grabbed a bag of pretzel rods,

couple Diet Cokes, and we sat in the back,

and we're eating pretzel rods, drinking Diet Cokes,

while driving around, looking at locations.

And it was almost like you had, you know,

your family member that you're taking around for a ride.

She divulged that Mr. Rothstein had requested two kitchen timers from her.

That was significant because up to that point, the media

had a lot of information, released a lot of information on this case,

but they did not know the fact

there were two timers. When she said Mr. Rothstein

wanted two and she provided two, that was a significant piece of information.

We sat there. She said, "That's it. I've put my head in the lion's mouth,

- and I'm done." - That's a quote.

And she stopped the interview.

Hold on. I have to unbuckle you.

Come on. I didn't do that. You know I won't blow the whistle on myself, right?

I'm not one of these guys that likes to say, "I'm a serial killer.

Come, I'll show you bodies." I didn't claim crimes I didn't do.

Listen to this one. I know I didn't do...

When I asked Marge to prove to me she wasn't part of the heist,

she said it was obvious. She didn't need to rob a bank.

She had plenty of money.

She was always talking about how much money she had, and she did,

from her parents, lawsuits and government aid.

But I found out from her, actually, that in 2003,

she and Ken Barnes had a huge fight about money she owed him. She refused to pay.

So, Ken told some friends to rob her.

Marge reported that over $100,000 had been stolen from her house.

But no one was ever prosecuted, despite the fact that Ken eventually confessed.

Ken Barnes got away with that, too. This guy is the scum of the Earth.

And now how the hell are you gonna tell me he is credible?

Probably the biggest break in this case was Marjorie and Ken still talking.

We were dealing with Marge or we were dealing with Ken.

Neither one had connection with each other,

so one didn't know what the other one said.

A line you hear a lot of time:

"The first pig or the first animal to the trough eats best."

The first one to the trough was Ken Barnes,

who gave up information on what happened at the tower site.

He provided a confession, which really turned the case.

Turned it, you know, made a 180. Yeah, he confessed to...

To knowing the whole scheme.

She said to me, "Here comes Brian."

And I said, "Well, let me see him."

And then she said, "Here comes Rothstein."

And I seen his car pulling down the street.

As she was looking down there, she goes:

"Ha, ha, ha. Looks like somebody just robbed a bank!"