Would you like to inspect the original subtitles? These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated:
1
00:00:06,850 --> 00:00:09,687
[Int. ]You are familiar
with the term, "The Rat Line"
2
00:00:09,722 --> 00:00:12,282
I know it is a miss-nomal.
3
00:00:12,317 --> 00:00:14,807
But you've heard the term?
4
00:00:14,842 --> 00:00:19,822
I assume that you don't
believe it was a line for rats.
5
00:00:19,857 --> 00:00:21,679
Not at all used...
6
00:00:21,714 --> 00:00:25,788
[former operator of the "Rat Line"] It
was invention of the guys "post factum. "
7
00:00:28,589 --> 00:00:31,465
Have you not agreed with
that description of it.
8
00:00:31,500 --> 00:00:35,141
It is outrageous... it is offensive...
9
00:00:35,176 --> 00:00:36,608
Well, explain why.
10
00:00:36,643 --> 00:00:38,006
Well it is derogatory.
11
00:00:38,041 --> 00:00:41,473
Father Draganovic has supplied
the documents for Barbie?
12
00:00:42,393 --> 00:00:47,770
Yes, he was chief
organizer of the enterprise.
13
00:00:48,579 --> 00:00:51,152
And the Americans came to him to Rome...
14
00:00:51,187 --> 00:00:56,197
to ask him to do services of sending out of Europe
people who are American Intelligence services.
15
00:01:04,497 --> 00:01:05,844
How did they approach him?
16
00:01:05,879 --> 00:01:08,878
Oh it was simple, he
was public person...
17
00:01:08,913 --> 00:01:13,109
living in the Croatian
seminary in Rome, for priests.
18
00:01:13,144 --> 00:01:17,328
And therefore American
services from Salzburg... CIC...
19
00:01:17,363 --> 00:01:21,513
could contact him through
different intermediaries in Rome.
20
00:01:21,548 --> 00:01:26,011
Draganovic was the main
outside organizer...
21
00:01:26,046 --> 00:01:31,663
and the one who procured all
documents and bank affairs...
22
00:01:32,698 --> 00:01:38,281
and similar things, because I
myself was under no protection
23
00:01:41,053 --> 00:01:47,046
He was a priest... and priest robes
always protect somebody like in New York!
24
00:01:51,073 --> 00:01:56,936
Pope Pius 1 was very much upset
by Europe's folly to the communism
25
00:01:58,971 --> 00:02:02,621
and was eager to help
everybody who needed help.
26
00:02:02,656 --> 00:02:07,916
The Secretary of State was Giovanni
Montini, the future Pope Paul VI.
27
00:02:08,951 --> 00:02:14,585
He would defend people, with
his recommendation for help.
28
00:02:14,620 --> 00:02:16,132
Did this include SS?
29
00:02:16,167 --> 00:02:21,339
I never personally ever
asked anybody anything.
30
00:02:22,374 --> 00:02:28,255
Whoever came... like in the most famous
Catholic tradition... "No questions asked".
31
00:02:32,290 --> 00:02:35,719
[district attorney in Brooklyn] You don't have
a Rat Line only created for Klaus Barbie...
32
00:02:38,299 --> 00:02:40,875
It would be too expensive...
and it wouldn't have such a name.
33
00:02:42,011 --> 00:02:45,612
It's hard for me to believe that
Barbie was an isolated incident.
34
00:02:45,647 --> 00:02:51,638
There is that segment of the Jews who would
never stop before turning the last stone.
35
00:02:55,673 --> 00:03:01,539
And therefore such Jews,
helped by immense riches
36
00:03:01,574 --> 00:03:04,578
in this country, want
to prosecute Barbie.
37
00:03:04,994 --> 00:03:06,249
You think that they're vengeful people?
38
00:03:06,284 --> 00:03:06,600
Oh yes.
39
00:03:06,635 --> 00:03:08,130
The revenge for what?
40
00:03:08,165 --> 00:03:14,002
To fabricate the crime, and then accuse somebody
of having committed those crimes... and hang.
41
00:03:18,611 --> 00:03:19,289
I see.
42
00:03:19,324 --> 00:03:21,992
Do you ever get the feeling, Holtzman,
43
00:03:22,027 --> 00:03:28,020
that only Jews and old Nazis are
still interested in Jews and old Nazis?
44
00:03:32,055 --> 00:03:37,858
Actually not... actually the whole problem
with Nazi war criminals, for example...
45
00:03:38,683 --> 00:03:41,242
was brought to my
attention by a non-Jew...
46
00:03:41,277 --> 00:03:45,487
who was horrified, as a human being
47
00:03:45,522 --> 00:03:50,221
that our government could protect
Nazi war criminals living here...
48
00:03:50,256 --> 00:03:51,847
and allow them to stay here.
49
00:03:52,642 --> 00:03:55,779
Among them is the
former congressman Holtz
50
00:03:59,504 --> 00:04:04,921
who started it, and now that
she wants to run once more,
51
00:04:04,956 --> 00:04:10,936
and in Brooklyn are those Jews who want to prosecute,
persecute, Nazis, collaborators, and everything
52
00:04:14,971 --> 00:04:19,224
what comes under that
roof, to the last end.
53
00:04:19,259 --> 00:04:23,442
Until the last blood of
them is not... is gone.
54
00:04:23,477 --> 00:04:27,223
There's a view that somehow the
holocaust is simply a Jewish problem.
55
00:04:28,315 --> 00:04:33,751
The dangers of the holocaust were
for millions of no-Jews as well.
56
00:04:33,786 --> 00:04:36,204
And the threat that it
represents to the world today...
57
00:04:36,239 --> 00:04:39,285
is to all humanity, not only Jews.
58
00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:43,509
The policy that gave rise to the
use of someone like Klaus Barbie...
59
00:04:43,544 --> 00:04:46,447
suggests that it could have
been much more widespread.
60
00:04:46,482 --> 00:04:49,351
And indeed, if US government
officials were willing
61
00:04:49,386 --> 00:04:51,072
to bring Nazi murderers
to our very shores,
62
00:04:51,107 --> 00:04:53,687
there's no reason to think they
wouldn't have worked with them abroad.
63
00:04:53,722 --> 00:04:58,172
From that moment, Americans
had nothing to do but to pay.
64
00:04:58,207 --> 00:05:02,623
And therefore so much for
documents and transportation...
65
00:05:02,658 --> 00:05:04,276
and whatever money...
66
00:05:04,311 --> 00:05:05,290
Did you supply the documents?
67
00:05:05,325 --> 00:05:10,992
Yes... In Augsburg, CIC Augsburg
knew what CIC in Salzburg was doing...
68
00:05:13,027 --> 00:05:16,422
Neagoy went to Salzburg...
Americans like to travel.
69
00:05:16,457 --> 00:05:19,817
And there's a nice overnight
in Salzburg or Munich.
70
00:05:19,852 --> 00:05:20,803
All on expense account.
71
00:05:20,838 --> 00:05:24,583
An expense account...
there is never enough!
72
00:05:24,618 --> 00:05:27,719
And Neagoy told them "I bring you in. "
73
00:05:27,754 --> 00:05:33,064
And Altman travelled, and Draganovic
would make him whatever you know.
74
00:05:33,099 --> 00:05:35,834
And George Neagoy... you knew him?
75
00:05:36,094 --> 00:05:40,250
Oh yes, we were good friends. He came
with the American Intelligence, and...
76
00:05:40,942 --> 00:05:45,950
was eager to hear what
happened to such people...
77
00:05:48,487 --> 00:05:51,706
Any problem with providing police
and protection are needed...
78
00:05:51,741 --> 00:05:56,739
[George Neagoy
- agent in retirement] No... no... no pictures!... So sorry.
79
00:05:56,774 --> 00:05:59,045
Chris... did you explain
that we were making a film?
80
00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:01,451
I thought that I had
mentioned that, yes.
81
00:06:01,486 --> 00:06:02,955
Interview yes... but no pictures.
82
00:06:02,990 --> 00:06:06,982
I'm not involved any more... but the
Barbie thing, that's?????????????????
83
00:06:26,889 --> 00:06:31,931
My conclusion was that the
CIA was not directly involved.
84
00:06:31,966 --> 00:06:33,941
Now what does that mean?
85
00:06:33,976 --> 00:06:37,308
It means that one particular part of
our bureaucracy was not involved...
86
00:06:37,343 --> 00:06:38,336
and another was.
87
00:06:38,371 --> 00:06:44,341
I met at least 3 different
American intelligence services...
88
00:06:53,252 --> 00:06:57,791
[Bolivian Minister of the Interior] [Spanish]
I think Barbie was recruited by the CIA.
89
00:06:57,816 --> 00:07:00,873
before he left Europe for South America.
90
00:07:00,908 --> 00:07:05,660
Everything suggests he
was working for the CIA.
91
00:07:05,695 --> 00:07:10,412
He received protection
from the US security.
92
00:07:13,796 --> 00:07:18,204
To travel freely in
Europe, the US, Spain,
93
00:07:18,239 --> 00:07:22,577
you needed the kind of
protection Barbie had,
94
00:07:22,612 --> 00:07:27,977
as he was a man sought
internationally for his crimes.
95
00:08:17,295 --> 00:08:18,805
[businessman] We saw in Barbie/Altman
96
00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:22,338
a German who had done
his duty for his country.
97
00:08:23,856 --> 00:08:28,730
In this case, if Bolivians
were faced with a war,
98
00:08:28,765 --> 00:08:33,732
I think we would have done our duty too.
99
00:09:03,023 --> 00:09:08,096
[French] At the Interior
Ministry where I waited hours...
100
00:09:10,131 --> 00:09:15,273
for interrogation.
101
00:09:15,956 --> 00:09:21,631
I sat in an armchair in the office
of the chief of intelligence.
102
00:09:23,666 --> 00:09:29,000
I saw a man in a coat
enter... not tall...
103
00:09:33,035 --> 00:09:37,052
Short... with a little hat...
104
00:09:37,087 --> 00:09:41,311
[Int. ] A round one.
Yes, and he had blue eyes.
105
00:09:41,346 --> 00:09:45,290
But he was unusual in
contrast to the others.
106
00:09:45,325 --> 00:09:49,234
He came in and spoke
with this gentleman...
107
00:09:49,269 --> 00:09:52,017
Then left through another door.
108
00:09:52,052 --> 00:09:55,049
The previous governments really
didn't want to arrest him.
109
00:09:56,273 --> 00:09:58,558
[Interpreter Spanish] They
didn't want to arrest Barbie.
110
00:10:01,099 --> 00:10:06,089
He headed efforts to organize
repressive forces in this country.
111
00:10:06,124 --> 00:10:07,588
[French] Were you tortured?
112
00:10:07,623 --> 00:10:11,536
Interrogated... decently
113
00:10:11,571 --> 00:10:14,170
decently at first...
then very roughly...
114
00:10:14,205 --> 00:10:16,884
and after... very, very roughly.
115
00:10:16,919 --> 00:10:19,733
[Int. ] For long? For days?
116
00:10:19,768 --> 00:10:25,265
Yes. And months later,
they came back for...
117
00:10:25,300 --> 00:10:26,165
Information?
118
00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:31,237
Yes, I spent 1� years in prison.
119
00:10:31,272 --> 00:10:36,865
But the rough questioning
lasted about 8 months.
120
00:10:37,900 --> 00:10:41,855
It was during General Barrientos' rule
121
00:10:43,612 --> 00:10:47,866
that a unit called the
"Furmont" was organized.
122
00:10:47,901 --> 00:10:52,120
It was Barrientos'
private paramilitary squad,
123
00:10:52,155 --> 00:10:56,763
organized for political repression.
124
00:10:57,212 --> 00:11:01,379
Then came General Be nzer,
125
00:11:01,414 --> 00:11:06,660
with whom Barbie
collaborated even more openly.
126
00:11:07,695 --> 00:11:12,906
They carried out arrests,
interrogations, murders.
127
00:11:14,790 --> 00:11:18,713
[French] It was under
General Benzer, in March 1972.
128
00:11:19,617 --> 00:11:23,122
[Int. ]- Why? -
I'm a journalist.
129
00:11:23,514 --> 00:11:28,909
We wrote about abuses
under the Benzer regime.
130
00:11:30,944 --> 00:11:34,349
- Human rights?
- Yes, mostly.
131
00:11:34,384 --> 00:11:37,432
I knew some of those who disappeared.
132
00:11:37,467 --> 00:11:40,446
I could have witnessed their deaths,
133
00:11:40,481 --> 00:11:45,644
because I was in a prison cell
right next to their friends.
134
00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:49,348
Sent to their deaths?
135
00:11:50,365 --> 00:11:54,942
Later I saw him in the
street with the Mr De Castro.
136
00:11:54,977 --> 00:11:59,767
I thought... "I know
him!". It was years ago.
137
00:11:59,802 --> 00:12:01,967
[Int. ] You'd seen him at the ministry?
138
00:12:02,002 --> 00:12:04,467
- In the place of torture.
- Yes.
139
00:12:04,502 --> 00:12:07,647
[bodyguard]
140
00:12:08,173 --> 00:12:12,413
The gentleman we've been talking
about must be in the next room.
141
00:12:12,448 --> 00:12:15,802
[Spanish] The highway must
have been very bad, no?
142
00:12:15,837 --> 00:12:19,112
- The Bolivian part too?
- Yes.
143
00:12:19,147 --> 00:12:22,798
- In Santana?
- Oh, sure.
144
00:12:23,308 --> 00:12:26,207
This is the photo I got of de
Castro with Barbie in the street.
145
00:12:26,242 --> 00:12:29,581
Whenever you saw Barbie in the
street, Alvaro was with him.
146
00:12:29,616 --> 00:12:32,921
Alvaro de Castro... plaintiff
for many of Barbie's activities.
147
00:12:33,420 --> 00:12:34,796
[Associated Press, La Paz] You
two have deals then, I guess.
148
00:12:34,831 --> 00:12:39,154
No, because he was arrested a few months ago,
was held for several weeks and interrogated...
149
00:12:39,189 --> 00:12:44,200
his pictures flashed all over the world as a paramilitary
Neo-Nazi and Barbie's friend... so he's very upset about it.
150
00:12:46,235 --> 00:12:47,774
But does he give, or know you?
151
00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:50,230
Yeah... for a fee.
152
00:12:50,265 --> 00:12:51,906
A lot of them?
153
00:12:51,941 --> 00:12:55,536
I think he's made some
good money off Barbie.
154
00:12:57,896 --> 00:13:00,872
[Spanish] Later, I'll
need a card from you.
155
00:13:00,907 --> 00:13:05,186
Sure... we can work that out.
156
00:13:05,221 --> 00:13:07,278
In his possession they found
a whole bunch of photographs...
157
00:13:07,313 --> 00:13:11,589
Nazi paraphernalia, literature, Mussolini
posters, Hitler posters, and so on...
158
00:13:11,917 --> 00:13:16,589
Are you sure that the Nazi paraphernalia
wasn't planted by the current government...?
159
00:13:16,624 --> 00:13:22,506
No... because there were photos in the paraphernalia
of Alvaro de Castro doing "Heil Hitler".
160
00:13:22,541 --> 00:13:23,985
And that wasn't planted.
161
00:13:24,281 --> 00:13:28,419
I think it'd be interesting to
ask him about the arms dealing.
162
00:13:28,454 --> 00:13:33,144
I'm certain Alvaro De Castro was the
representative from this Austrian company.
163
00:13:33,179 --> 00:13:38,881
And there are also reports of people seeing De
Castro doing torture sessions here in La Paz.
164
00:13:38,916 --> 00:13:44,600
[Spanish] It is now
2.14... 3.40... 2.46.
165
00:13:46,635 --> 00:13:51,887
His Austrian firm was dealing with the
drug king... what's his name, Don...
166
00:13:51,922 --> 00:13:55,962
Roberto Su�rez... the cocaine kingpin.
167
00:13:55,997 --> 00:13:59,298
He's in hiding somewhere here.
168
00:13:59,333 --> 00:14:02,599
Oh yes... the law is after him.
169
00:14:03,703 --> 00:14:08,443
And he uses Steyr weapons.
170
00:14:08,478 --> 00:14:10,017
[Spanish] Well, the time is here
171
00:14:10,052 --> 00:14:13,650
In Bolivia, there is no "official" time.
172
00:14:13,685 --> 00:14:16,453
Nothing's official.
173
00:14:16,488 --> 00:14:19,002
De Castro must be getting
impatient in there.
174
00:14:19,037 --> 00:14:24,444
Well, his demeanour is charming,
he looks like a gentleman.
175
00:14:24,479 --> 00:14:29,825
He's really not going to reveal anything that's sensational...
or anything that's critical of Barbie or himself.
176
00:14:35,095 --> 00:14:37,160
[De Castro, Spanish] Were you asleep?
177
00:14:39,030 --> 00:14:40,619
You know Peter, don't you?
178
00:14:46,513 --> 00:14:52,486
I'm sorry I'm late... I'm sorry I'm this
way... I'm having the altitude sickness.
179
00:14:52,521 --> 00:14:54,173
So I'm taking afternoon naps.
180
00:14:57,185 --> 00:15:02,946
Alvaro De Castro, have you had any
communication with your friend Klaus Barbie...
181
00:15:02,981 --> 00:15:05,851
since he's been jailed in Lyon?
182
00:15:06,008 --> 00:15:11,008
[Spanish] Yes, I had news from him.
Almost since the week he got to France...
183
00:15:15,043 --> 00:15:20,322
I get one about every 8 or 9 days.
184
00:15:22,357 --> 00:15:24,768
Is he in good health?
185
00:15:24,803 --> 00:15:28,683
[De Castro] I doubt
it's fun being in jail.
186
00:15:29,851 --> 00:15:35,430
Someone tells me that Dom Roberto
Su�rez, the drug king in Bolivia...
187
00:15:35,465 --> 00:15:41,105
receives arms from an Austrian firm.
188
00:15:41,140 --> 00:15:46,900
And you are the representative in Bolivia of that Austrian
firm. Could you tell me if that information is correct?
189
00:15:49,238 --> 00:15:49,429
[Spanish] Very well.
190
00:15:49,464 --> 00:15:54,715
There's been a lot of talk in this country
that Altman and I and the Austrian firm
191
00:15:58,750 --> 00:16:04,644
were involved in
supplying arms to this man.
192
00:16:04,679 --> 00:16:08,466
Is it just talk? Is it not true?
193
00:16:08,501 --> 00:16:09,230
It's not true.
194
00:16:09,265 --> 00:16:11,563
You have never worked for them?
195
00:16:11,598 --> 00:16:16,273
The fact is...
196
00:16:16,308 --> 00:16:19,764
Please... do you work
for them or don't you?
197
00:16:19,799 --> 00:16:23,136
- The true situation...
- Answer my question.
198
00:16:23,171 --> 00:16:28,235
Do you or don't you...
Have you worked for them?
199
00:16:28,270 --> 00:16:33,300
Well I work for...
worked for... but not now.
200
00:16:33,335 --> 00:16:35,872
[Int. ] Now give me an explanation.
201
00:16:35,907 --> 00:16:40,532
Of course in principle,
I have to say first...
202
00:16:40,567 --> 00:16:45,157
Barbie was never involved
in the drug trade...
203
00:16:45,192 --> 00:16:49,187
or in drug traffic... no.
204
00:16:49,222 --> 00:16:53,935
And I think they were also
involved in providing information...
205
00:16:53,970 --> 00:16:56,173
intelligence information
to the US government.
206
00:16:56,208 --> 00:16:59,172
Did you ever go to the American
embassy with information?
207
00:16:59,207 --> 00:17:00,637
No, never.
208
00:17:00,672 --> 00:17:04,637
I have friends... I have had friends.
209
00:17:04,672 --> 00:17:07,728
Think it over... because I'll
be going to the American embassy.
210
00:17:07,763 --> 00:17:12,913
I had friends many years
ago... but information? No.
211
00:17:12,948 --> 00:17:18,284
I took part in their
social events, sports...
212
00:17:18,319 --> 00:17:23,620
But I never took
information there. never.
213
00:17:24,555 --> 00:17:26,732
[former chieftain of "The Fianc�s of
Death"] [German] I first met Barbie in La Paz
214
00:17:26,767 --> 00:17:31,945
That is, after knowing his
lawyer Adolfo Ustarez, through...
215
00:17:33,980 --> 00:17:36,185
The one in the photo...
216
00:17:36,220 --> 00:17:40,459
The famous photo of the
coup of July 17, 1980.
217
00:17:40,494 --> 00:17:46,144
The fact that I hired, or Barbie
hired, Ustarez as his lawyer...
218
00:17:47,179 --> 00:17:52,323
doesn't mean they're friends
for life. That's absurd.
219
00:17:54,358 --> 00:17:58,052
- This a group of paramilitary...
- Are they the "Fianc�s of Death"?
220
00:17:58,087 --> 00:18:03,450
The "Fianc�s of Death"... This is Joachim Fiebelkorn...
this is an ex-Nazi who's involved in arms dealing...
221
00:18:05,485 --> 00:18:08,113
and this is Adolfo
Ustarez... the lawyer.
222
00:18:08,148 --> 00:18:12,599
And this is a photo of Adolfo
Ustarez with Klaus Barbie.
223
00:18:12,634 --> 00:18:14,605
Who are the "Fianc�s of Death"?
224
00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:16,531
I don't understand.
225
00:18:16,566 --> 00:18:19,844
AH... the "Fianc�s of Death"...
226
00:18:20,565 --> 00:18:24,530
German adventurers who came to Bolivia.
227
00:18:24,565 --> 00:18:29,405
[German] In this famous caf� in
La Paz, sat Dr Ustarez, the lawyer.
228
00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:31,840
We joined Barbie at his table.
229
00:18:31,875 --> 00:18:37,081
We spoke only Spanish,
and then Ustarez said...
230
00:18:37,116 --> 00:18:40,871
"He's a countryman of yours. "
231
00:18:40,906 --> 00:18:44,626
So he says to me in Spanish...
232
00:18:44,661 --> 00:18:46,019
"You're German?"
233
00:18:46,621 --> 00:18:51,621
I say yes. "From where?"
"From near Frankfurt. "
234
00:18:52,656 --> 00:18:58,617
So he asks what I'm doing in Bolivia.
235
00:18:58,652 --> 00:19:01,038
I say "I plan to live here. "
236
00:19:01,073 --> 00:19:03,964
I'll never forget his
first words about Bolivia...
237
00:19:03,999 --> 00:19:05,946
A tip about Bolivia...
238
00:19:05,981 --> 00:19:11,040
To stay out of politics and
anything to do with drugs.
239
00:19:11,075 --> 00:19:15,500
"Then you can live in
peace. " His very words.
240
00:19:15,535 --> 00:19:16,732
Our first conversation.
241
00:19:16,767 --> 00:19:21,017
Advice you didn't always follow.
242
00:19:21,052 --> 00:19:25,267
Not at all. In fact I fell into it.
243
00:19:25,302 --> 00:19:26,732
Climbed in, you mean.
244
00:19:26,767 --> 00:19:31,835
It was through a Bolivian
general that I fell into it all.
245
00:19:32,870 --> 00:19:36,800
The general knew I'd
been with the police.
246
00:19:36,835 --> 00:19:42,677
They knew also that I'd
shipped arms from Germany.
247
00:19:42,712 --> 00:19:48,206
That's when I knew politically
that I was on the general's side.
248
00:19:49,241 --> 00:19:51,427
The police were really...
249
00:19:51,462 --> 00:19:52,258
leftists.
250
00:19:52,293 --> 00:19:54,717
Leftists who stand for things I oppose.
251
00:19:54,752 --> 00:19:58,057
For that I didn't need to emigrate.
252
00:19:58,092 --> 00:20:02,421
Marxism, Che Guevara... you name it.
253
00:20:02,456 --> 00:20:06,716
Even police officers trained in Cuba.
254
00:20:06,751 --> 00:20:11,990
I'm sure of it. No way
I could be part of that.
255
00:20:12,025 --> 00:20:14,605
[Int. ] So you took the other side?
256
00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:17,554
Of course... it was the only way.
257
00:20:17,589 --> 00:20:20,468
[Int. ] Which was more Barbie's side.
258
00:20:20,503 --> 00:20:23,507
Yes, Barbie's side, of course.
259
00:20:23,540 --> 00:20:25,464
Dis you ever meet Fiebelkorn?
260
00:20:25,499 --> 00:20:27,353
[Spanish] It's true... I met him.
261
00:20:27,388 --> 00:20:29,851
Did you have drinks with
him? Did you go out with him?
262
00:20:29,886 --> 00:20:31,632
Nights with him in Santa Cruz?
263
00:20:32,132 --> 00:20:32,752
Not with me.
264
00:20:33,731 --> 00:20:35,248
With Barbie?
265
00:20:36,998 --> 00:20:40,963
Just once at the restaurant
Bavaria... just once.
266
00:20:40,998 --> 00:20:45,277
[German] As a guest I can say
that when he had company...
267
00:20:45,312 --> 00:20:48,528
his wife was more suspicious than he.
268
00:20:48,563 --> 00:20:51,710
At his house that was my impression.
269
00:20:51,745 --> 00:20:56,495
He mentioned Klarsfeld's
coming, but only casually.
270
00:20:56,530 --> 00:21:01,656
But I can tell you, I
told my general I said...
271
00:21:01,691 --> 00:21:06,747
"If that man was SS, I
was Napoleon's adjutant!"
272
00:21:06,782 --> 00:21:09,771
All these former Nazis were
very closely tied together.
273
00:21:09,806 --> 00:21:12,761
Although that Klarsfeld should
come in on that himself...
274
00:21:12,796 --> 00:21:13,826
the fact that they were tied.
275
00:21:13,861 --> 00:21:17,619
And there was a network of
ex-Nazis in South America...
276
00:21:17,654 --> 00:21:19,970
It was in my opinion, very, very active.
277
00:21:20,005 --> 00:21:23,148
[Spanish] In Argentina, the
Eichmann issue had come up.
278
00:21:23,183 --> 00:21:26,185
At least I think they'd
already discovered him...
279
00:21:26,220 --> 00:21:30,863
and he, Eichmann, of
course felt cornered.
280
00:21:30,898 --> 00:21:36,594
Eichmann who had contacts
and friends eager to help him.
281
00:21:37,629 --> 00:21:43,388
Barbie somehow heard they wanted
to help Eichmann move to Santa Cruz.
282
00:21:48,423 --> 00:21:52,812
[German] The old crowd kept
up contact, I won't deny it.
283
00:21:54,121 --> 00:21:55,877
General Wolf...
284
00:21:55,912 --> 00:21:56,350
[Int. ] Visited Barbie?
285
00:21:56,385 --> 00:22:01,991
Yes, he came. They met. I don't
know what was discussed though.
286
00:22:02,026 --> 00:22:06,435
He was at least 80. So
the altitude was a problem.
287
00:22:06,470 --> 00:22:10,844
Did Barbie ever talk with
you about the Mengele case?
288
00:22:10,879 --> 00:22:16,561
Yes, of course. We had
long talks about his work
289
00:22:16,596 --> 00:22:22,243
at Buenos Aires University,
and his professorship.
290
00:22:22,278 --> 00:22:27,251
Did you think Mengele was a criminal?
291
00:22:27,286 --> 00:22:31,527
Well that wasn't it exactly, no.
292
00:22:31,562 --> 00:22:33,100
He explained it to me...
293
00:22:33,135 --> 00:22:38,864
how these were well-orchestrated
exaggerations...
294
00:22:38,899 --> 00:22:41,921
cleverly manipulated
for the world press,
295
00:22:41,956 --> 00:22:47,713
to present Mengele as a murderer.
296
00:22:49,748 --> 00:22:52,531
You say "exaggerated Mengele's role"...
297
00:22:52,686 --> 00:22:54,187
and Barbie's role.
298
00:22:54,222 --> 00:22:57,461
I'm told we've also
exaggerated Eichmann's role.
299
00:22:57,496 --> 00:22:59,777
So who's role did we NOT exaggerate?
300
00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:04,784
Personally, I can't
say... I wasn't there.
301
00:23:04,819 --> 00:23:09,909
I do know from reading
history, WWll accounts...
302
00:23:09,944 --> 00:23:14,520
many distortions arise between writers.
303
00:23:15,345 --> 00:23:16,337
Do you know any Jews?
304
00:23:16,372 --> 00:23:19,794
It's possible.
305
00:23:19,829 --> 00:23:20,462
Do you know how to recognize a Jew?
306
00:23:22,647 --> 00:23:25,061
Has Barbie taught you
how to recognize a Jew?
307
00:23:25,096 --> 00:23:28,113
No, not him exactly, but...
308
00:23:28,148 --> 00:23:31,825
[Int. ] Barbie didn't like
Jews, did he? Let's face it.
309
00:23:31,860 --> 00:23:35,502
I wouldn't say that. He did
have Jewish friends here.
310
00:23:36,450 --> 00:23:41,450
He said, that among these
people, among these Jews,
311
00:23:43,485 --> 00:23:48,950
there were some who
weren't full of anger.
312
00:23:54,387 --> 00:23:57,068
Not vindictive or not full of anger?
313
00:24:00,052 --> 00:24:02,238
So he said.
314
00:24:03,750 --> 00:24:08,552
[German] 2 weeks after the coup of the
17th, the revolution of Garcia Meza,
315
00:24:08,587 --> 00:24:12,951
I was assigned to security
at Santa Cruz airport,
316
00:24:12,986 --> 00:24:17,976
which I'd blocked off
with my paramilitary.
317
00:24:18,011 --> 00:24:23,781
Everything was normal except
for the military police.
318
00:24:24,816 --> 00:24:30,470
I was in the departure lounge
with the Bolivian lieutenant.
319
00:24:31,505 --> 00:24:35,935
Suddenly there's an uproar on level 3.
320
00:24:35,970 --> 00:24:41,026
So I look up to see what was wrong, and
there's Barbie. I had no idea he was there
321
00:24:43,061 --> 00:24:46,451
Barbie, on level 3... I knew it was him,
322
00:24:46,486 --> 00:24:51,486
and I see a much taller man trying
to push him over the railing.
323
00:24:52,521 --> 00:24:55,632
This German Jew says,
324
00:24:55,667 --> 00:24:58,132
"I'll kill you, Nazi swine!"
325
00:24:58,167 --> 00:25:03,667
"In '36 you put me in a concentration camp.
You murdered my family and my friends. "
326
00:25:05,702 --> 00:25:08,133
or some such thing.
327
00:25:08,168 --> 00:25:13,241
It was getting dangerous.
Barbie was half over the railing,
328
00:25:13,276 --> 00:25:16,979
just about ready to fall.
329
00:25:17,014 --> 00:25:20,647
In my own country, very often
330
00:25:20,682 --> 00:25:26,197
I can't even walk down the streets.
331
00:25:27,232 --> 00:25:30,879
Well, they insult me...
332
00:25:30,914 --> 00:25:35,976
I can't go into a store to
buy a sweater or a shirt...
333
00:25:38,011 --> 00:25:43,039
And I have to ask a friend
to go buy shoes for me.
334
00:25:45,074 --> 00:25:47,263
I can't go in myself.
335
00:25:47,298 --> 00:25:51,917
They might insult me,
and I don't want trouble.
336
00:25:52,094 --> 00:25:55,209
[Int. ] Do you know you're
known as Barbie's best friend?
337
00:25:55,244 --> 00:25:59,920
Sure they know, that's
why they insult me.
338
00:25:59,955 --> 00:26:03,410
[Peter, Spanish] Are you even
sorry to be Barbie's friend?
339
00:26:03,445 --> 00:26:07,348
No, why should I be? I'm not sorry.
340
00:26:07,966 --> 00:26:13,110
[former president of the German Chamber of Commerce in Peru]
In so far as America having Lima in Chile, Ecuador, Argentina
341
00:26:15,145 --> 00:26:20,026
as the recipients of
the... how would you say it?
342
00:26:21,171 --> 00:26:26,587
The "Strandgutes Krieges"... all
kind of "Strandgut" of the war.
343
00:26:28,414 --> 00:26:31,330
In German it is a very nice word
to say... "leftovers" [jetsam].
344
00:26:31,365 --> 00:26:35,522
What's left on the
beach... the vanquished.
345
00:26:36,562 --> 00:26:42,008
Then of course, in these circles, a lot
of sentiment and understanding was there.
346
00:26:45,619 --> 00:26:48,778
- Resentment toward the...
- Having lost!
347
00:26:50,941 --> 00:26:56,694
- And therefore they sat around and drank...
- Drank their beer and sang their old songs.
348
00:26:57,195 --> 00:26:58,343
And how about Barbie?
349
00:27:00,892 --> 00:27:05,114
Barbie said nothing about
what he did in the war.
350
00:27:05,149 --> 00:27:09,987
I met him at the house of a
friend, in Santa Clara near Lima.
351
00:27:10,022 --> 00:27:15,418
I think this was in the
beginning of '69 or '70.
352
00:27:18,453 --> 00:27:19,834
I can't recall it very well.
353
00:27:19,869 --> 00:27:22,982
But at that time he was
not prominent in Lima yet.
354
00:27:23,017 --> 00:27:27,598
[Translator, Spanish] Do
you know the name "Barbie"?
355
00:27:27,633 --> 00:27:32,179
Yes, he was a noble man,
truly. He was in the army.
356
00:27:35,935 --> 00:27:39,514
He thinks he was an army man.
357
00:27:41,556 --> 00:27:46,601
And also he thinks of
army man as nobleman.
358
00:27:47,474 --> 00:27:48,514
As noble man?
359
00:27:49,771 --> 00:27:52,489
One day there was a
guest from Bolivia...
360
00:27:52,524 --> 00:27:55,091
...a merchant...
Klaus Altmann-Handen...
361
00:27:55,126 --> 00:27:57,659
Who was presented to me... and his wife.
362
00:27:57,694 --> 00:28:01,086
They called her Jin... Jin Altmann.
363
00:28:01,121 --> 00:28:02,439
That's how I met them.
364
00:28:02,474 --> 00:28:05,611
He was director of Transmarica Boliviana
365
00:28:05,646 --> 00:28:10,708
which is a privately owned, with state
participation, shipping company of Bolivia.
366
00:28:13,743 --> 00:28:16,610
Then he bought a house next to my place
367
00:28:16,645 --> 00:28:22,473
Which is a further 20
kilometres up towards the Andes.
368
00:28:22,508 --> 00:28:28,266
As I live 75 k outside, I
do not go home for siestas.
369
00:28:28,301 --> 00:28:32,687
I normally finished work at the
Chamber of Commerce at about 7pm.
370
00:28:32,722 --> 00:28:37,893
And on the way home, I dropped in for a glass
of wine, as I found him quite interesting.
371
00:28:38,928 --> 00:28:41,451
There was always something
interesting to talk about.
372
00:28:42,296 --> 00:28:44,131
What type of thing?
373
00:28:44,166 --> 00:28:49,899
Well... it'd be about
Schwend, you know,...
374
00:28:49,934 --> 00:28:51,706
Not about Barbie.
375
00:28:57,549 --> 00:29:03,196
In this I would not say that Barbie was the reason
I dropped in... I didn't find him THAT interesting.
376
00:29:04,231 --> 00:29:10,099
He talked about his exploits in the
war... One time he showed me his medals.
377
00:29:15,135 --> 00:29:20,693
He got the Iron Cross first class,
second class... and he got...
378
00:29:21,747 --> 00:29:26,900
He had a small ribbon and very proud
of it... the swastika was still in it.
379
00:29:26,935 --> 00:29:30,296
Now you can wear the old medals
again without the swastika.
380
00:29:30,331 --> 00:29:33,657
He of course never would wear
them without the swastika.
381
00:29:33,692 --> 00:29:35,553
That is of course against his "honor"!
382
00:29:35,588 --> 00:29:41,389
[former federal judge, Lima] This
property was managed by Fritz Paul Schwend.
383
00:29:42,424 --> 00:29:47,160
Living there temporarily
was Klaus Altmann Barbie,
384
00:29:47,195 --> 00:29:52,167
who had just come to Peru from Bolivia.
385
00:29:52,202 --> 00:29:57,104
On the other side
lived Schneider-Merck,
386
00:29:57,139 --> 00:30:02,448
then president of the
Peruvian-German Chamber of Commerce.
387
00:30:02,483 --> 00:30:07,757
- You spoke German or Spanish?
- No... always German of course.
388
00:30:11,918 --> 00:30:14,718
I wouldn't... why should
we?... we're all Germans!
389
00:30:14,753 --> 00:30:17,519
[Trans. Spanish] Does
Schneider-Merck live here?
390
00:30:17,554 --> 00:30:19,004
Yes.
391
00:30:19,039 --> 00:30:21,344
- In what house?
- The second one.
392
00:30:25,579 --> 00:30:29,659
I'm not done yet, but I
don't know where they are.
393
00:30:35,333 --> 00:30:37,409
So I got into currency
dealings with these people...
394
00:30:37,444 --> 00:30:43,112
And they really cheated me...
after this apparent friendship...
395
00:30:47,174 --> 00:30:50,306
It became absolutely...
I was just conned.
396
00:30:50,341 --> 00:30:53,315
In a very very vile
way by these 2 buggers.
397
00:30:53,350 --> 00:30:56,254
Barbie as a "crook"...
among other things?!
398
00:30:56,289 --> 00:30:59,783
Oh, definitely... he's not only
crooked in mind... he is a crook.
399
00:31:00,554 --> 00:31:05,592
I would definitely say so... the criminal
energy required to torture another human being.
400
00:31:09,379 --> 00:31:14,128
Probably someone who is capable of this,
is capable of doing anything else...
401
00:31:14,163 --> 00:31:16,058
And still having a clean conscience.
402
00:31:16,093 --> 00:31:21,407
The only scruples that Barbie had, was that
he had to somehow bring together for example
403
00:31:23,442 --> 00:31:29,360
his avowed Nazi ideology, which of
course required a lot of idealism,
404
00:31:30,907 --> 00:31:32,165
And the others...
405
00:31:33,214 --> 00:31:37,558
A lot of idealism of giving up personal
freedom for the "bigger idea"...
406
00:31:42,168 --> 00:31:43,916
Yes he had to bring that together.
407
00:31:43,951 --> 00:31:44,587
With what?
408
00:31:45,722 --> 00:31:48,508
Bring together the
Nazi ideology with what?
409
00:31:48,543 --> 00:31:49,823
With his own dealings.
410
00:31:49,858 --> 00:31:55,182
[Spanish] It can be proved it is
through Klaus Altman or Klaus Barbie
411
00:31:56,217 --> 00:32:00,947
that the Banco Popular Del
Peru had an office in Bolivia.
412
00:32:00,982 --> 00:32:06,717
Dollars, converted to soles, were sent
to Bolivia, then converted back to dollars
413
00:32:07,752 --> 00:32:13,600
then sent by Klaus Altmann through an
international network to foreign accounts.
414
00:32:13,635 --> 00:32:19,448
And they stole this considerable sum of
money... 500,000 Deutschmarks in cash...
415
00:32:19,483 --> 00:32:22,470
was in 1971 quite a lot of money.
416
00:32:25,979 --> 00:32:27,708
They really stole from me.
417
00:32:29,038 --> 00:32:32,612
They didn't have to go into
my house... I gave it to them!
418
00:32:34,413 --> 00:32:35,979
To deposit it in Bolivia.
419
00:32:36,689 --> 00:32:41,689
[Spanish] Fritz Paul Schwend worked
with our intelligence service,
420
00:32:42,724 --> 00:32:46,823
through which he tried
to get information
421
00:32:46,858 --> 00:32:50,888
about possible dollar accounts abroad.
422
00:32:50,923 --> 00:32:54,595
Then he made contacts
in Hamburg in Germany,
423
00:32:54,630 --> 00:32:58,233
looking for people
to put the squeeze on.
424
00:32:58,268 --> 00:33:02,157
- I was a victim of...
- But you were also involved.
425
00:33:02,192 --> 00:33:04,867
Definitely... I was also involved...
426
00:33:07,022 --> 00:33:08,330
...in currency dealings.
427
00:33:08,365 --> 00:33:13,447
[Spanish] He liked us. He
was a good noble person.
428
00:33:13,482 --> 00:33:18,530
He said Altmann was a nice
person. He liked him a lot.
429
00:33:20,477 --> 00:33:22,379
How did he feel about
South American indians?
430
00:33:22,414 --> 00:33:26,317
You talked with him for 2 years...
you must have talked a lot about that.
431
00:33:29,538 --> 00:33:33,354
It's a little bit difficult...
432
00:33:33,389 --> 00:33:38,646
There was this very jolly admiral...
I really do not recall his name
433
00:33:39,681 --> 00:33:45,398
but he was a typical cholo... a highlander...
massively strong... short cropped black hair.
434
00:33:47,433 --> 00:33:50,620
But really looking like an indian... and
435
00:33:50,655 --> 00:33:54,704
We went to the harbor because he
wanted to buy a second-hand ship...
436
00:33:54,739 --> 00:33:59,290
and I noticed he was treated
as admiral like a subordinate.
437
00:34:00,671 --> 00:34:02,060
Like "Carry my bag"... you know.
438
00:34:02,095 --> 00:34:06,072
Mr Altmann praised his work,
when he was doing his gardening.
439
00:34:07,661 --> 00:34:09,791
[Spanish] Did Mr Altmann like flowers?
440
00:34:12,172 --> 00:34:15,713
He had a feeling of superiority...
he was absolutely sure of himself.
441
00:34:15,748 --> 00:34:17,880
- Supermensch?
- Oh, definitely.
442
00:34:17,915 --> 00:34:21,616
[ex-chairman of Transmaratima Boliviana]
When they launched the Transmaratima Bolivian
443
00:34:21,651 --> 00:34:26,985
Barrientos said to me,
"Gaston, meet a great sailor. "
444
00:34:27,020 --> 00:34:32,957
"A naval engineer who'll
be working with us. "
445
00:34:32,992 --> 00:34:38,457
That's when we became friends,
and he became our manager.
446
00:34:40,492 --> 00:34:43,712
They used of course this
Transmaratima for all kinds of deals.
447
00:34:44,449 --> 00:34:49,449
General Barrientos knew Barbie was a
scoundrel when he put him in charge.
448
00:34:49,484 --> 00:34:53,914
He'd been given a Bolivian
diplomatic passport,
449
00:34:53,949 --> 00:34:59,912
which he used for trips to
Paris, Berlin, Hamburg, Antwerp,
450
00:35:00,947 --> 00:35:06,875
where he went to the best
restaurants, the best hotels'
451
00:35:08,365 --> 00:35:10,432
as manager of Transmaratima.
452
00:35:10,467 --> 00:35:12,465
They were so enthusiastic!
453
00:35:12,500 --> 00:35:17,591
They asked the Bolivians,
children, old people
454
00:35:17,626 --> 00:35:22,551
for a national subscription,
455
00:35:22,586 --> 00:35:26,349
to invest, so the
company could buy a boat.
456
00:35:26,384 --> 00:35:30,844
What did they do with that
boat? The Transmaratima.
457
00:35:32,501 --> 00:35:33,261
Arms smuggling?
458
00:35:33,296 --> 00:35:35,955
Oh yes... definitely.
459
00:35:35,990 --> 00:35:41,962
I'm so bad with figures, I can't
say how much, how many dollars.
460
00:35:42,997 --> 00:35:47,108
But it was a lot, because
youngsters, even kids,
461
00:35:47,143 --> 00:35:51,417
invested their money, so our
nation would have access to the sea!
462
00:35:51,452 --> 00:35:54,645
After I found out that
these people were crooks...
463
00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:59,305
I just sat in a hotel room in
Bogota and thought "What can I do?"
464
00:35:59,340 --> 00:36:01,989
I mean what can I do...
what do I have in hand?
465
00:36:02,024 --> 00:36:06,309
Having known these people for 3 years and
having met a lot of their acquaintances...
466
00:36:06,344 --> 00:36:12,334
I was very well aware as to what a feeble
and delicate situation I found myself.
467
00:36:13,135 --> 00:36:17,781
How powerful and how dangerous they could be, if
they found someone not to their liking any longer.
468
00:36:17,816 --> 00:36:23,688
He was given protection, since
he was "in" with the police.
469
00:36:24,723 --> 00:36:29,784
A very frequent visitor was Colonel Velasquez Alavarez... he
was the brother of the military dictator of Bolivia at that time.
470
00:36:32,819 --> 00:36:35,810
So you were in that
hotel room in Bolivia.
471
00:36:35,845 --> 00:36:38,802
Yes, so I thought what
can I do against them?
472
00:36:39,148 --> 00:36:45,058
I had handed over a suitcase with the
equivalent of 500,000 DM in local currency.
473
00:36:48,093 --> 00:36:50,406
And a kilo of gold and some documents...
474
00:36:50,441 --> 00:36:54,009
How could I ever establish it? There
was nothing... no receipt, nothing.
475
00:36:54,044 --> 00:36:57,441
So I started to write down
everything I knew about Altmann.
476
00:36:57,476 --> 00:37:02,116
I knew that he spoke perfectly French and
he had even said he was stationed in France.
477
00:37:04,395 --> 00:37:10,130
He also said he was stationed for
a very short time in Yugoslavia.
478
00:37:11,367 --> 00:37:16,883
But he never really said to which battalion,
which infantry division he belonged.
479
00:37:18,578 --> 00:37:24,189
Perhaps there is some other angle to it.
Perhaps something that Altmann is hiding.
480
00:37:24,224 --> 00:37:29,801
And I made a very solemn memorandum and
I sent this by a friend in Switzerland...
481
00:37:29,836 --> 00:37:34,131
Dr Alfred Jenni from
the Santos corporation.
482
00:37:35,224 --> 00:37:36,451
I said send it to Simon Wiesenthal.
483
00:37:36,486 --> 00:37:41,148
[researcher of Nazi crimes] Schneider-Merck
claims to have sent a letter to Simon Wiesenthal.
484
00:37:41,183 --> 00:37:45,282
That's possible, but he
didn't send us any letters.
485
00:37:45,317 --> 00:37:50,896
And then the answer came back that Simon
Wiesenthal declares that he has the whole archives
486
00:37:53,821 --> 00:37:56,797
of all members of the Gestapo, SS, SD...
487
00:37:56,832 --> 00:37:59,739
And there is no Klaus Altmann-Handen.
488
00:37:59,774 --> 00:38:04,509
[French] Wiesenthal wrote the previous
month: "Barbie's in the Egyptian army. "
489
00:38:04,544 --> 00:38:07,098
If it was received, it wasn't read.
490
00:38:07,133 --> 00:38:09,618
So I said this is really something...
491
00:38:09,653 --> 00:38:11,676
So I said, "Jesus, now I've
found you, you bastard. "
492
00:38:11,711 --> 00:38:16,330
Because if you are not there,
then you are under another name.
493
00:38:16,365 --> 00:38:19,418
In November
- December 1971,
494
00:38:19,453 --> 00:38:24,105
Banchero Rossi and a
correspondent, Herbert John,
495
00:38:24,140 --> 00:38:29,748
Gave us Barbie's address and alias.
496
00:38:29,783 --> 00:38:35,457
And right after, 3 or 4 days
later, Banchero Rossi was murdered.
497
00:38:35,492 --> 00:38:40,835
As he lived next to Barbie and Schwend,
498
00:38:41,870 --> 00:38:45,335
they were suspected of the crime.
499
00:38:45,370 --> 00:38:47,521
Herbert John...
500
00:38:47,556 --> 00:38:51,569
Reports started to appear.
501
00:38:51,604 --> 00:38:56,768
These reports began
appearing in Germany,
502
00:38:56,803 --> 00:39:02,303
in 2 magazines... Der
Spiegel and Bild Zeitung.
503
00:39:04,416 --> 00:39:10,410
That's it. They made it sound
504
00:39:10,445 --> 00:39:15,889
as though it were a conspiracy
involving Nazi figures.
505
00:39:17,924 --> 00:39:23,009
The last time I ever saw Barbie...
506
00:39:23,044 --> 00:39:28,747
he stopped me on the road... and very
furiously had a newspaper and he said
507
00:39:29,782 --> 00:39:33,170
"We had some commercial
difficulties... "
508
00:39:33,205 --> 00:39:39,147
"But here... see what Wiesenthal says
one of my cover names was Martin Lauer.
509
00:39:39,182 --> 00:39:43,810
How could he ever have known
this? Explain this to me!
510
00:39:43,845 --> 00:39:49,804
"I understand we had some commercial difficulty... but
this is something else"... Like going over to the enemy!
511
00:39:49,839 --> 00:39:53,639
These people have no religion.
512
00:39:53,674 --> 00:39:58,800
he says people like
that is like bad people.
513
00:40:02,311 --> 00:40:06,836
"Mr Altmann or Mr
Barbie, if you prefer... "
514
00:40:07,366 --> 00:40:13,132
This 500,000 has disappeared... I want one third back
and then I never want to see you again in my life.
515
00:40:18,020 --> 00:40:23,020
Only God could judge his worth.
God almighty can judge them all.
516
00:40:24,055 --> 00:40:25,574
His wife was sitting next to him...
517
00:40:26,624 --> 00:40:28,519
He said "Have we had
commercial difficulties?"
518
00:40:28,554 --> 00:40:32,032
"What you did with me was
betrayal of a comrade... "
519
00:40:32,067 --> 00:40:35,511
"In my textbook, that is the
death penalty, my friend. "
520
00:40:35,546 --> 00:40:39,709
In German it sounds much more forceful.
521
00:40:39,744 --> 00:40:44,841
[German] Your crime, Mr Altmann... or should
I say Barbie... is betrayal of a comrade
522
00:40:47,876 --> 00:40:53,093
By my code of honor, that
warrants the death penalty!
523
00:40:53,128 --> 00:40:54,486
And I never saw him again.
524
00:40:54,521 --> 00:41:00,335
[former correspondent Agence France Presse]
[French] Around noon I received a wire from Paris...
525
00:41:01,370 --> 00:41:04,780
"We believe that Barbie"
526
00:41:08,096 --> 00:41:12,073
"is Altmann and is in Lima. "
527
00:41:15,731 --> 00:41:20,398
"We count on you, as
ever, to get the story. "
528
00:41:20,433 --> 00:41:25,187
Immediately I thought of Schwend,
529
00:41:25,222 --> 00:41:29,941
who was the Nazi everyone knew.
530
00:41:30,783 --> 00:41:34,627
I'd met him casually one day
531
00:41:34,662 --> 00:41:38,346
but guessed he wouldn't remember me.
532
00:41:42,695 --> 00:41:45,676
I got in my car with my girlfriend.
533
00:41:45,711 --> 00:41:51,035
I also had a police escort.
534
00:41:51,070 --> 00:41:52,381
[Int. ] The police were with you?
535
00:41:52,416 --> 00:41:57,396
4 plainclothes police.
536
00:41:57,431 --> 00:42:02,647
I went and talked to Schwend.
537
00:42:02,682 --> 00:42:08,128
He chuckled and said "OK.
I'll get you an appointment. "
538
00:42:09,163 --> 00:42:13,117
Barbie was there on the dot.
539
00:42:13,152 --> 00:42:17,072
After some talk, I said,
540
00:42:17,507 --> 00:42:23,472
"Look, people are
saying you're Barbie. "
541
00:42:23,507 --> 00:42:28,722
The look on the man's face
was one of total surprise.
542
00:42:30,757 --> 00:42:35,033
Then I said, "If that's untrue...
543
00:42:35,068 --> 00:42:40,100
"We'll take photos to
prove you're not Barbie. "
544
00:42:41,910 --> 00:42:44,367
Here are the photos.
545
00:42:44,402 --> 00:42:46,790
[Int. ] Shot in Lima?
546
00:42:46,825 --> 00:42:51,515
In a square facing Hotel Bolivar.
547
00:42:51,550 --> 00:42:55,305
He'd have pulled his
pants down for sure.
548
00:42:59,994 --> 00:43:05,069
[Int. ] Such a nice
guy couldn't be guilty.
549
00:43:05,104 --> 00:43:10,144
It was just impossible.
But I'd been instructed
550
00:43:10,179 --> 00:43:15,845
To get shots of his ears.
551
00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:18,546
[Int] They use ears to identify people?
552
00:43:18,581 --> 00:43:24,223
Here's a photo after our
talk in the hotel. He posed.
553
00:43:26,258 --> 00:43:30,055
After such a demonstration you
figure, "This can't be Barbie. "
554
00:43:30,090 --> 00:43:35,946
[Int. ] Because he's too nice?
555
00:43:35,981 --> 00:43:39,991
Because he's too nice
and too cooperative.
556
00:43:40,026 --> 00:43:45,721
So cooperative, that he'd
set up a date in Bolivia.
557
00:43:48,497 --> 00:43:50,497
Of course he fled.
558
00:43:57,212 --> 00:44:00,677
I asked the French government for data.
559
00:44:00,712 --> 00:44:06,264
That's when I met with the
French ambassador, Mr Chambon.
560
00:44:07,155 --> 00:44:12,155
who very cautiously managed
not to confirm or deny
561
00:44:13,190 --> 00:44:16,792
that Barbie and Altmann were one person.
562
00:44:16,827 --> 00:44:22,318
[French] Mr Chambon was in Lima
when Beate brought the evidence.
563
00:44:22,353 --> 00:44:26,988
He took the right steps,
but too late, and he knew it.
564
00:44:27,023 --> 00:44:29,861
Barbie was over the border.
565
00:44:29,896 --> 00:44:34,498
Naturally he was protected
by the authorities.
566
00:44:34,533 --> 00:44:39,344
[Spanish] The government, or
maybe the minister of the interior,
567
00:44:39,379 --> 00:44:43,652
kept me from indicting Altmann.
He'd crossed the border.
568
00:44:48,300 --> 00:44:53,800
I decided to have Klaus Barbie
arrested, but word leaked out.
569
00:44:53,835 --> 00:44:56,681
I was surprised he was in La Paz.
570
00:45:02,404 --> 00:45:04,369
[Int. French] Why was he protected?
571
00:45:04,404 --> 00:45:10,365
He was protected because of
his friends and connections.
572
00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:16,486
Around these parts, a friend's a friend.
573
00:45:17,521 --> 00:45:22,537
My first impulse was
to report his escape.
574
00:45:23,572 --> 00:45:28,921
Then I thought "Do I really
want to act like a cop?"
575
00:45:28,956 --> 00:45:34,281
[Int. ] Did your attempt to arrest Barbie
have a bad influence on your career?
576
00:45:35,316 --> 00:45:39,995
[Spanish] I don't know
whether it helped or hurt.
577
00:45:40,030 --> 00:45:43,326
Many bad things have happened to me.
578
00:45:43,361 --> 00:45:49,080
I don't know if they're due to that,
but you noticed I'm no longer a judge.
579
00:45:50,115 --> 00:45:54,966
[Int. French] Who decided to
let him get away to Bolivia?
580
00:45:55,001 --> 00:45:57,306
It was Richter.
581
00:45:57,341 --> 00:46:03,277
[Int. ] The minister of the interior.
582
00:46:03,312 --> 00:46:08,047
He phoned to say: "Barbie leaves
tonight. This makes it official. "
583
00:46:08,082 --> 00:46:13,447
"But remember you're a journalist. "
584
00:46:13,772 --> 00:46:18,772
[researcher of Nazi crimes] What we do we do on
our own. We're not paid by any government or party.
585
00:46:20,807 --> 00:46:23,438
I can't compare myself to Klarsfeld,
586
00:46:23,473 --> 00:46:29,015
or those who act with
a sense... of a mission.
587
00:46:29,050 --> 00:46:34,433
Their mission is economic...
588
00:46:36,468 --> 00:46:40,161
financially rewarding.
589
00:46:40,196 --> 00:46:43,820
We pay our own way.
590
00:46:43,855 --> 00:46:49,315
With a small group of
friends, we raise funds later.
591
00:46:51,350 --> 00:46:56,898
You think they do it for their
health? Who pays their air fares?
592
00:46:58,374 --> 00:47:04,249
Who pays for their
stay in 5-star hotels?
593
00:47:04,284 --> 00:47:08,066
[Int. ] You believe the Israeli
secret service foots the bill?
594
00:47:08,101 --> 00:47:09,200
Yes, I think so.
595
00:47:09,235 --> 00:47:13,343
When I slapped the German chancellor,
596
00:47:13,378 --> 00:47:16,748
I was called a Soviet agent.
597
00:47:16,783 --> 00:47:22,077
When I spoke out against
anti-Semitism, I was with the CIA.
598
00:47:25,105 --> 00:47:28,505
[Spanish] When the lady arrived,
599
00:47:28,540 --> 00:47:31,870
the Nazi-hunter, Miss Karsfeld,
600
00:47:31,905 --> 00:47:37,468
we didn't go to tell her
Altmann is here... No way!
601
00:47:37,503 --> 00:47:39,832
But we knew who Altmann was.
602
00:47:39,867 --> 00:47:43,550
[French] I didn't see Barbie in La Paz,
603
00:47:43,585 --> 00:47:47,846
but I knew he was giving
interviews to the press.
604
00:47:47,881 --> 00:47:53,741
He said "I'm proud of all I've done...
and I'd do it again for Hitler. "
605
00:47:53,776 --> 00:47:58,528
He threatened France. He
felt safe under the junta.
606
00:47:58,563 --> 00:48:03,916
Up in the Andes, he
charged for TV interviews.
607
00:48:04,951 --> 00:48:07,618
To our distaste, even
French TV paid him.
608
00:48:07,653 --> 00:48:12,703
[Spanish] He was protected by his
friends because he was very popular.
609
00:48:12,738 --> 00:48:16,032
"Hi dear, how are you
going?" and all that.
610
00:48:16,067 --> 00:48:21,291
He was a nice guy nobody bothered
on the street. Believe me.
611
00:48:22,326 --> 00:48:28,047
[French] He agreed to pose having
his shoes shined in the heart of Lima.
612
00:48:31,421 --> 00:48:35,921
We said, "Listen, have your shoes
shined, and we'll take your picture. "
613
00:48:35,956 --> 00:48:41,497
When we sat him down
at a piano in La Paz...
614
00:48:43,532 --> 00:48:48,516
we knew we were really exploiting him.
615
00:48:48,551 --> 00:48:53,501
He concentrated like a true pianist...
616
00:48:53,536 --> 00:48:56,637
a real German, too... lyrical.
617
00:48:56,672 --> 00:48:59,704
[Spanish] He was a gentleman.
618
00:48:59,739 --> 00:49:03,508
He was at ease chatting to a local girl,
619
00:49:03,543 --> 00:49:07,277
and he was an intelligent, capable man.
620
00:49:07,312 --> 00:49:12,886
[French] Why hound him like that?
621
00:49:12,921 --> 00:49:18,460
He had a family and was trying...
622
00:49:18,811 --> 00:49:21,776
- [int. ] To start over.
- To start over.
623
00:49:21,811 --> 00:49:27,233
I wasn't just thinking of him.
His wife suffered terribly.
624
00:49:28,268 --> 00:49:33,180
I think it did her in.
625
00:49:33,215 --> 00:49:36,174
We did her in.
626
00:49:37,098 --> 00:49:41,098
Mrs Halaunbrenner lost
her husband and children.
627
00:49:41,133 --> 00:49:45,098
She'd not newsworthy. The
media prefers the killer.
628
00:49:45,133 --> 00:49:49,063
This woman went alone to Bolivia,
629
00:49:49,098 --> 00:49:53,361
to denounce Barbie's
crimes against humanity.
630
00:49:53,396 --> 00:49:57,624
She alone, in her
grief, found the courage.
631
00:50:10,581 --> 00:50:12,265
My daughter and my son.
632
00:50:15,264 --> 00:50:19,224
My husband was shot,
my children deported.
633
00:50:19,259 --> 00:50:22,189
All by Klaus Barbie.
634
00:50:22,224 --> 00:50:25,386
All day he was in my
home at Villeurbanne.
635
00:50:25,421 --> 00:50:30,570
On the Rue Pierre Loti.
636
00:50:30,605 --> 00:50:35,799
He took my husband and son from
me... I tried to pull them back...
637
00:50:36,834 --> 00:50:41,880
crying... but he struck
me with his gun butt.
638
00:50:43,915 --> 00:50:48,350
[Man] In 1971, Serge got
my name from the phone book.
639
00:50:48,385 --> 00:50:53,457
He called and asked if the names Mina
and Claudine meant anything to me.
640
00:50:53,492 --> 00:50:56,707
[Int. ] He called you in 1971?
641
00:50:56,742 --> 00:51:01,935
It's then he told me his plan... "Barbie's
in Bolivia. We can reopen the case. "
642
00:51:03,970 --> 00:51:09,111
Mother, who was 68 at the
time, agreed to go right away.
643
00:51:11,146 --> 00:51:16,809
saying "I'll do anything to find the
ones who killed my husband and kids.
644
00:51:16,844 --> 00:51:18,648
They stayed a month in Bolivia.
645
00:51:19,375 --> 00:51:23,775
With Beate, they
demonstrated against this man,
646
00:51:23,810 --> 00:51:28,140
who now at large, had
been a killer in France.
647
00:51:28,175 --> 00:51:34,123
[anchorman, French TV news] In 1972, by chance, I
got hold of Klaus Barbie, journalistically speaking.
648
00:51:35,158 --> 00:51:40,971
After 5 days of inquiries, I got to
conduct a 25-minute interview with him.
649
00:51:42,006 --> 00:51:45,974
I was asked to see if
Mr Altmann was Mr Barbie.
650
00:51:46,009 --> 00:51:51,280
I went as a reporter, not
as a Nazi-hunting avenger.
651
00:51:53,315 --> 00:51:57,271
[Int. ] You weren't the
first to identify him.
652
00:51:57,306 --> 00:52:00,923
Nor were the Klarsfelds.
653
00:52:00,958 --> 00:52:06,575
They deserve the credit for putting
Barbie away in a French prison.
654
00:52:07,610 --> 00:52:10,540
But Barbie had been
spotted in South America
655
00:52:10,575 --> 00:52:16,226
by the French secret service
as early as 1966 or '67.
656
00:52:17,261 --> 00:52:19,726
French diplomats knew of his presence.
657
00:52:19,761 --> 00:52:23,801
built in 1967 their major concern
658
00:52:23,836 --> 00:52:28,546
was getting Regis Debray
out of a Bolivian jail.
659
00:52:28,581 --> 00:52:34,046
They couldn't ask Bolivia
for both Debray and Barbie.
660
00:52:34,081 --> 00:52:39,654
[adviser to the French presidency]
That's completely ridiculous.
661
00:52:39,689 --> 00:52:45,038
I was freed December 29, 1970.
662
00:52:46,073 --> 00:52:51,258
Barbie was first identified,
I believe, at the end of 1971.
663
00:52:51,293 --> 00:52:56,506
[Int. ] Are you revolted by the theory that
your case thwarted efforts to get Barbie?
664
00:52:58,541 --> 00:53:02,853
[Debray] It was never an issue.
665
00:53:05,126 --> 00:53:09,126
Believe me, if it had been
so, I'd have known all about it
666
00:53:09,161 --> 00:53:12,626
- [Int. ] In jail/
- Yes, in jail and afterwards.
667
00:53:12,661 --> 00:53:14,448
My friends would have known.
668
00:53:14,483 --> 00:53:19,870
French diplomats were
incompetent and indifferent.
669
00:53:19,905 --> 00:53:25,881
If Klaus Barbie had waved a
flag "My name's Klaus Barbie,"
670
00:53:25,916 --> 00:53:29,259
They'd never say "The Nazi. "
671
00:53:29,294 --> 00:53:32,568
They let him walk around La Paz.
672
00:53:32,603 --> 00:53:36,415
When they saw him,
they'd cross the street.
673
00:53:36,450 --> 00:53:40,119
They couldn't live
with a Barbie/Altmann.
674
00:53:40,154 --> 00:53:43,753
When that French TV crew came to La Paz,
675
00:53:43,788 --> 00:53:48,788
the French consul hand-delivered
Barbie's fee for the interview.
676
00:53:55,220 --> 00:53:59,599
French officials may have known
677
00:53:59,634 --> 00:54:03,943
Altmann/Barbie's whereabouts.
678
00:54:03,978 --> 00:54:09,155
But one thing is
sure... A policy existed,
679
00:54:11,190 --> 00:54:16,945
for the diplomats to do
nothing, whoever was responsible.
680
00:54:16,980 --> 00:54:22,340
No instructions were given
to our embassies down there
681
00:54:23,375 --> 00:54:28,665
to start extradition procedures...
even to look for Barbie.
682
00:54:29,700 --> 00:54:34,716
[former leader of the French
Resistance] Pompidou was a bit nervous.
683
00:54:34,751 --> 00:54:38,286
because he'd always heard too
many people talk about resistance.
684
00:54:38,321 --> 00:54:43,564
So he got the jumps I think,
685
00:54:43,599 --> 00:54:46,448
when people started
talking about resistance.
686
00:54:46,483 --> 00:54:51,983
It was better for him if one
spoke a little less about it.
687
00:54:52,018 --> 00:54:53,734
[int. French] Pompidou
wanted extradition?
688
00:54:56,866 --> 00:55:01,630
Deep down, perhaps, he didn't
think it was a very urgent issue.
689
00:55:01,665 --> 00:55:05,911
In 1972 it took a few days
690
00:55:05,946 --> 00:55:10,134
to persuade the Bolivians
to bring Barbie to me.
691
00:55:10,169 --> 00:55:15,215
First they said "You'll go to his house
blindfolded so you won't know the address. "
692
00:55:16,250 --> 00:55:19,804
"You'll have 3 minutes interview time. "
693
00:55:19,839 --> 00:55:25,339
"enough for him to say he's
nobody but Mr Altmann. "
694
00:55:25,969 --> 00:55:30,829
[German] The prosecutors in Munich
will be able to forward the file.
695
00:55:30,864 --> 00:55:36,309
so the Bolivian authorities
can set the record straight.
696
00:55:40,464 --> 00:55:44,429
[French] They wanted us to speak
Spanish, but I spoke German.
697
00:55:44,464 --> 00:55:49,869
[German] Barbie's wife and children have
exactly the same names and ages as your own.
698
00:55:51,904 --> 00:55:57,636
That could be. There are many
such coincidences in life.
699
00:55:57,671 --> 00:56:03,369
After a while I said in
French, "Were you over in Lyon?"
700
00:56:03,404 --> 00:56:07,641
Try asking that of someone
who doesn't speak French!
701
00:56:07,676 --> 00:56:11,730
He told me, "I never set foot there!"
702
00:56:11,765 --> 00:56:14,673
From then on he was all mine.
703
00:56:14,708 --> 00:56:20,208
[German] Could you say something
in French? Just a few words?
704
00:56:21,243 --> 00:56:23,433
Say what? "Comment allez-vous?"
705
00:56:23,468 --> 00:56:25,619
[Journalist, French] "I
wasn't in the Gestapo. "
706
00:56:25,654 --> 00:56:27,084
I wasn't in the Gestapo.
707
00:56:27,119 --> 00:56:32,741
Then he said "I'm not a
murderer and a torturer. "
708
00:56:32,776 --> 00:56:38,364
In a voice that was very
Germanic, very guttural.
709
00:56:38,399 --> 00:56:40,737
I am not a murderer.
710
00:56:40,772 --> 00:56:43,447
I'm not a torturer.
711
00:56:43,482 --> 00:56:46,087
I'm not a torturer.
712
00:56:46,122 --> 00:56:49,732
I was never in the Gestapo in Lyon.
713
00:56:49,767 --> 00:56:51,111
[German] What was that?
714
00:56:51,146 --> 00:56:54,666
[French] I was never
in the Gestapo in Lyon.
715
00:56:54,701 --> 00:56:58,186
[French] I was never
in the Gestapo... Lyon.
716
00:56:58,221 --> 00:57:00,494
[Journ. ] In Lyon
717
00:57:00,529 --> 00:57:02,631
I don't know Jean Moulin.
718
00:57:02,666 --> 00:57:05,894
I don't know...
719
00:57:05,929 --> 00:57:11,127
Se�or Molino... as we say here.
720
00:57:11,162 --> 00:57:16,290
Before me was an ageing cop,
721
00:57:16,325 --> 00:57:19,290
who, with some help
from the mountain sun,
722
00:57:19,325 --> 00:57:24,655
had mellowed in retirement. He seemed to
have lost some of his professional reflexes.
723
00:57:24,690 --> 00:57:29,594
[German] According to
what I read in Paris-Match,
724
00:57:35,845 --> 00:57:40,433
[French] We had more interest
in Moulin than the Izieu story.
725
00:57:40,468 --> 00:57:45,433
which was hardly known at
the time... hardly published.
726
00:57:45,468 --> 00:57:47,898
[German] Anything to say to the French?
727
00:57:47,933 --> 00:57:53,898
No, I have nothing against
the French. Never did.
728
00:57:53,933 --> 00:57:58,433
On the contrary, I used to deal
with them, do business with them.
729
00:57:58,468 --> 00:58:01,992
[Int. French] Yet in
Bolivia he threatened them.
730
00:58:02,027 --> 00:58:03,651
I think he said on film...
731
00:58:03,686 --> 00:58:09,151
When I mentioned the
Eichmann case, he said to me,
732
00:58:09,186 --> 00:58:14,176
[German] If the same happens to
me, it'll be a bad day for France.
733
00:58:14,211 --> 00:58:19,167
This is Klaus Barbie's home. He
lived here for 2 years until 1981.
734
00:58:19,202 --> 00:58:21,692
I was standing here 1981,
735
00:58:21,727 --> 00:58:24,176
together with Marisa Bell-Schumacher
from The New York Times
736
00:58:24,211 --> 00:58:29,120
We were both doing a story for The
Times, and knocking on the door hear.
737
00:58:29,155 --> 00:58:32,850
[Int. ] Was he looking
at you while you were...
738
00:58:32,885 --> 00:58:35,866
I saw him looking from this
window. Then he disappeared.
739
00:58:35,901 --> 00:58:38,847
After waiting, we were about
to leave after taking pictures,
740
00:58:38,882 --> 00:58:43,732
and a van showed up and
about 12 paramilitary
741
00:58:43,767 --> 00:58:46,697
armed with submachine guns, showed up.
742
00:58:46,732 --> 00:58:52,148
They were in an unmarked van. They asked us what
we were doing here, then put us under arrest,
743
00:58:53,183 --> 00:58:57,275
put us in the van and took
us to military headquarters.
744
00:58:57,310 --> 00:59:02,428
It was a place headed
by Colonel Guido Vildoso.
745
00:59:02,463 --> 00:59:04,514
We were held about 5 hours.
746
00:59:04,549 --> 00:59:09,859
But they realized that by having
arrested us, they were in serious trouble
747
00:59:09,894 --> 00:59:13,118
Two people working
for The New York Times
748
00:59:13,153 --> 00:59:17,945
were arrested for trying to reach Klaus
Barbie. So they released us after 5 hours.
749
00:59:17,980 --> 00:59:19,445
Guido Vildoso ordered our release.
750
00:59:24,364 --> 00:59:27,418
A year later Guido Vildoso
was president of Bolivia.
751
00:59:29,788 --> 00:59:33,288
One of the first visitors he
had to the palace was Barbie.
752
00:59:45,045 --> 00:59:47,774
- [Spanish] Guido Vildoso?
- Yes sir.
753
00:59:51,006 --> 00:59:55,006
[Vildoso] No comment. I'm not
authorizes by the commander-in-chief.
754
00:59:55,041 --> 00:59:58,971
Would you speak for film on Barbie?
755
00:59:59,006 --> 01:00:03,006
When you led the
seventh, do you remember?
756
01:00:03,041 --> 01:00:06,971
You arrested some
journalists, and when you...
757
01:00:07,006 --> 01:00:12,506
I'm very sorry but you'll need the
commander-in-chief's authorization.
758
01:00:13,141 --> 01:00:15,973
He has been president of Bolivia?
759
01:00:16,008 --> 01:00:18,806
[Spanish] Yes, he was president.
760
01:00:22,013 --> 01:00:23,705
I don't want to talk
about military matters.
761
01:00:25,581 --> 01:00:27,196
He says in general
terms, he cannot speak.
762
01:00:27,231 --> 01:00:28,943
Does he remember what the arrest...
763
01:00:28,978 --> 01:00:30,656
[Spanish] Do you recall arresting...
764
01:00:30,691 --> 01:00:32,657
[Journ. ] He remembers that.
765
01:00:32,692 --> 01:00:34,402
[Spanish] Many thanks Mr President
766
01:00:34,437 --> 01:00:39,825
- My pleasure and so sorry.
- Sure, of course.
767
01:00:40,860 --> 01:00:42,349
[Vildoso] I assume the presidency
768
01:00:42,384 --> 01:00:47,481
by a mandate from our
nation's armed forces,
769
01:00:47,516 --> 01:00:52,578
at a critical time in
the history of Bolivia,
770
01:00:52,613 --> 01:00:55,489
when it would seem all our values,
771
01:00:55,524 --> 01:01:00,805
ethical, moral, spiritual and material,
772
01:01:00,840 --> 01:01:06,340
are crumbling. with unforeseeable
consequences for the destiny of our nation.
773
01:01:11,919 --> 01:01:16,919
Good afternoon. We'd like your
impressions for a film on Barbie.
774
01:01:16,954 --> 01:01:20,324
Can you describe him personally?
775
01:01:20,359 --> 01:01:24,027
How was it living beside him so long
776
01:01:24,062 --> 01:01:27,695
Were they nice people? And his wife?
777
01:01:27,730 --> 01:01:32,052
How was it when his son died?
778
01:01:32,087 --> 01:01:36,587
He was a very normal person. We
got along well. He was a gentleman.
779
01:01:36,622 --> 01:01:39,519
I don't know many private things.
780
01:01:39,554 --> 01:01:43,554
- Was he very nice?
- As a neighbor, yes.
781
01:01:45,047 --> 01:01:50,302
[book publisher] [German] Barbie visited my
bookstore, until we kicked him out one day in La Paz.
782
01:01:50,337 --> 01:01:53,802
His wife also bought German magazines.
783
01:01:54,302 --> 01:01:58,802
We've been the only German bookstore
in Bolivia for the past 40 years.
784
01:01:58,837 --> 01:02:02,517
We already knew who he was.
785
01:02:02,552 --> 01:02:07,911
We kicked his wife out for another
reason, unaware who she was.
786
01:02:07,946 --> 01:02:13,270
She was such an obnoxious
customer, haggling over everything,
787
01:02:13,305 --> 01:02:18,735
that we said, We don't
need your business. "
788
01:02:18,770 --> 01:02:23,907
[Spanish] He asked me over a few
times. At first he thought I was Jewish.
789
01:02:24,942 --> 01:02:27,527
[Journ. ] He thought he was Jewish.
790
01:02:27,562 --> 01:02:30,165
[Spanish] And this had
made things difficult.
791
01:02:30,594 --> 01:02:35,073
[Journ. ] That was the difference,
he thought he was Jewish.
792
01:02:35,108 --> 01:02:39,518
[German] When Barbie first got
here, he did business with Jews,
793
01:02:39,553 --> 01:02:45,204
who, of course, had no idea who he was,
where he was from, or what he represented.
794
01:02:45,239 --> 01:02:50,952
[Spanish] Well, with us...
we're not Jews, we're Bolivians.
795
01:02:50,987 --> 01:02:56,666
- Once he understood that...
- [Journ. ]You got on better?
796
01:02:56,701 --> 01:03:00,666
He was much friendlier...
797
01:03:00,701 --> 01:03:04,131
warmer, more open...
798
01:03:04,166 --> 01:03:09,131
[German] My bookstore and
press got me on their blacklist.
799
01:03:09,166 --> 01:03:14,166
Barbie kept the list. He had much
more influence that we thought.
800
01:03:14,201 --> 01:03:19,166
He told me he had an office at
the ministry of the interior,
801
01:03:19,201 --> 01:03:21,835
and private guards.
802
01:03:21,870 --> 01:03:24,370
[Int. ] Under Banzer and Garcia Meza?
803
01:03:24,405 --> 01:03:25,149
That's right.
804
01:03:25,184 --> 01:03:28,149
Banzer had me arrested.
805
01:03:28,184 --> 01:03:33,250
A squad of storm-troopers came, maybe 6 or
8... in the commotion I didn't count them...
806
01:03:35,285 --> 01:03:40,365
with machine guns and
all, to clear out my books.
807
01:03:42,400 --> 01:03:47,803
They said to me, "Why don't you pick
out which books are subversive... "
808
01:03:48,838 --> 01:03:54,803
"and threaten Bolivia's freedom?"
809
01:03:54,838 --> 01:03:56,599
I said, "That's impossible. "
810
01:03:56,634 --> 01:04:00,690
"Either all are
subversive or none are. "
811
01:04:00,725 --> 01:04:03,036
They burned them all.
812
01:04:07,841 --> 01:04:13,583
I was put in a private jail,
guarded by young paramilitaries,
813
01:04:14,618 --> 01:04:20,290
all shouting very proudly,
"We're the Gestapo! Fascists!"
814
01:04:21,325 --> 01:04:26,377
"We're on the watch! We're the
Gestapo. " A great honor for them.
815
01:04:27,412 --> 01:04:31,424
[writer] [French] Barbie, if you will,
816
01:04:31,459 --> 01:04:34,821
is a man of conviction, of
consistency, of continuity.
817
01:04:34,856 --> 01:04:40,356
The convictions he upholds are
Aryan, racist and political.
818
01:04:42,391 --> 01:04:48,041
That's why, in Bolivia, he
immediately became active.
819
01:04:48,076 --> 01:04:53,656
in intelligence, the army,
and police repression.
820
01:04:53,691 --> 01:04:59,656
He didn't have to do this.
He wasn't defending Germany.
821
01:05:00,691 --> 01:05:05,741
In 1972 there was an abortive attempt
to return him to France, via Chile.
822
01:05:07,776 --> 01:05:10,480
Debray and I went to Santiago.
823
01:05:10,515 --> 01:05:13,150
We flew to the Bolivian border.
824
01:05:13,185 --> 01:05:18,150
Karsfeld had data I didn't
have, and vice versa.
825
01:05:18,185 --> 01:05:23,198
Our motives differed but we joined
forces when I saw him in Santiago.
826
01:05:23,233 --> 01:05:28,211
He said why he wanted Barbie. To me
Barbie was simply Moulin's killer.
827
01:05:28,246 --> 01:05:33,767
Karsfeld knew he was guilty
of much more than that.
828
01:05:33,802 --> 01:05:38,906
In 1973 General Pinochet
replaced Allende.
829
01:05:41,941 --> 01:05:43,371
Our plans were off.
830
01:05:43,406 --> 01:05:49,136
As a French Latino, I
went to South America...
831
01:05:50,171 --> 01:05:55,171
to take part in movements like those
I'd missed... the Resistance, Spain.
832
01:05:57,206 --> 01:05:59,636
[Int. ] You felt a need for commitment?
833
01:05:59,671 --> 01:06:04,671
You might say Barbie was living
proof I wasn't entirely wrong.
834
01:06:06,706 --> 01:06:11,671
It was the same struggle
against the same men.
835
01:06:23,518 --> 01:06:26,437
This is Barbie's last home.
836
01:06:28,090 --> 01:06:33,090
[Spanish] Yes, shortly before he was
arrested, he lived here on the 3rd floor.
837
01:06:34,125 --> 01:06:36,672
Hey, who gave you permission...
838
01:06:36,707 --> 01:06:40,168
- [Man] Don't do that!
- I don't care!
839
01:06:40,203 --> 01:06:42,714
This is a private residence.
840
01:06:52,202 --> 01:06:55,702
I'll report you!
841
01:06:56,302 --> 01:06:57,884
I don't understand Spanish.
842
01:06:57,919 --> 01:07:02,239
But I know who lived
here... It was Klaus Barbie.
843
01:07:02,274 --> 01:07:06,559
And that's what you don't
want us to film, isn't it.
844
01:07:06,594 --> 01:07:10,027
[Spanish] I don't care!
Talk to me in Spanish.
845
01:07:17,559 --> 01:07:21,478
Mr De Castro, what were we talking
about when we were so rudely interrupted?
846
01:07:23,017 --> 01:07:25,754
I don't remember.
847
01:07:26,907 --> 01:07:31,925
[French] Alvaro De Castro
had decided to kidnap me,
848
01:07:31,960 --> 01:07:36,944
to exchange me for Barbie.
It was a madcap idea.
849
01:07:36,979 --> 01:07:40,573
[Int. ] When was this, in 1984?
850
01:07:40,950 --> 01:07:45,531
Just a few months after
Barbie was returned.
851
01:07:45,566 --> 01:07:50,811
In the face of conclusive evidence,
De Castro confessed in Bolivia.
852
01:07:51,846 --> 01:07:56,549
- [Int. ] Who'd finance it?
- Money's no problem in Bolivia.
853
01:07:56,584 --> 01:08:02,322
For all its supposed marginality, Bolivia
is one of the world's richest countries.
854
01:08:02,357 --> 01:08:08,287
This "poor" country
is rolling in dollars.
855
01:08:08,322 --> 01:08:12,287
The main drug lord is now
setting up an arts foundation
856
01:08:12,322 --> 01:08:17,822
to promote Bolivian culture worldwide.
There's all sorts of culture here.
857
01:08:17,857 --> 01:08:23,447
The coco plant's one kind,
pre-Colombian art is another.
858
01:08:23,482 --> 01:08:28,955
When the dictatorship fell,
859
01:08:28,990 --> 01:08:32,455
Beate and I remembered
the promise we had made.
860
01:08:32,490 --> 01:08:37,490
to the mothers of the Izieu
children, to bring Barbie to justice.
861
01:08:37,525 --> 01:08:41,978
So we convinced the French president
862
01:08:42,013 --> 01:08:47,443
this operation was worthwhile.
863
01:08:47,478 --> 01:08:52,580
Our friend G.S. Salazar
became head of security,
864
01:08:52,615 --> 01:08:55,579
and quickly resolved the Barbie case.
865
01:08:55,614 --> 01:08:59,404
[Spanish] When he was
arrested, I didn't see him.
866
01:08:59,439 --> 01:09:04,317
We simply held him for
non-payment of a debt.
867
01:09:04,352 --> 01:09:09,160
Altmann, a Bolivian,
couldn't be expelled.
868
01:09:09,195 --> 01:09:14,729
Barbie, a German living
here illegally, could be.
869
01:09:15,764 --> 01:09:21,228
He felt secure. He didn't
think we'd expel him.
870
01:09:22,263 --> 01:09:28,191
But when we got into the car, I told him
he was being expelled, not transferred.
871
01:09:29,226 --> 01:09:31,691
He thought that meant Germany.
872
01:09:31,726 --> 01:09:37,247
So, it's back to Germany,
873
01:09:37,282 --> 01:09:42,768
where I ought to be living...
874
01:09:42,803 --> 01:09:44,966
like anyone else.
875
01:09:45,001 --> 01:09:48,877
[French] Over a span of
40 years and 2 continents,
876
01:09:48,912 --> 01:09:53,912
the "arm of justice' brought Barbie
back to the scene of his crimes.
877
01:09:53,947 --> 01:09:57,419
[Journ. ] Spanish] Do you
think the past is done with?
878
01:09:57,454 --> 01:10:00,866
It's passed, buried.
879
01:10:00,901 --> 01:10:02,901
You regret nothing
you've done in your life?
880
01:10:02,936 --> 01:10:08,366
Personally no. I can say no.
881
01:10:09,401 --> 01:10:12,901
If you could relive it,
would you do the same?
882
01:10:12,936 --> 01:10:16,366
You can't relive the past.
883
01:10:16,401 --> 01:10:22,091
Life is never the same.
Repeat it and it's different.
884
01:10:22,126 --> 01:10:27,591
It's full of complications,
trials and errors.
885
01:10:29,626 --> 01:10:33,673
Did you make any mistakes?
886
01:10:33,708 --> 01:10:37,721
Of course! Haven't you?
887
01:10:43,036 --> 01:10:44,004
Are you still a Nazi?
888
01:10:44,039 --> 01:10:48,329
The word Nazi doesn't exist.
889
01:10:48,364 --> 01:10:52,585
It's used... I don't know...
890
01:10:52,620 --> 01:10:56,120
Can you explain to me what Nazi means?
891
01:10:56,155 --> 01:10:58,120
[Children singing in German]
892
01:11:25,088 --> 01:11:30,588
[Anchorman, French] While the press awaited
the arrival of Barbie at Lyon airport,
893
01:11:31,623 --> 01:11:35,067
his plane landed at 8pm
at Orange Air Force Base.
894
01:11:35,102 --> 01:11:37,532
It had flown him from French Guyana.
895
01:11:37,567 --> 01:11:42,614
[warden of Montluc prison] [int. ] Should
Barbie have been left in peace in La Paz.
896
01:11:42,649 --> 01:11:46,750
You're asking what I think
as an average Frenchman?
897
01:11:46,785 --> 01:11:50,455
40 years after is a bit late.
898
01:11:50,490 --> 01:11:55,955
All civilized countries
have secret services.
899
01:11:55,990 --> 01:12:01,955
They can have individuals
killed abroad no matter where.
900
01:12:01,990 --> 01:12:07,490
I'm French and I say had France wished
to dispose of Barbie in those 40 years...
901
01:12:07,525 --> 01:12:10,762
...it had plenty of chances!
902
01:12:10,797 --> 01:12:15,297
[Anchorman] Barbie was brought
to this prison under heavy guard.
903
01:12:15,332 --> 01:12:21,297
He will be formally charged
by Judge Jacques Riss,
904
01:12:22,332 --> 01:12:25,422
with crimes against humanity.
905
01:12:34,787 --> 01:12:40,093
Here's the cell Barbie
occupied for a week.
906
01:12:40,128 --> 01:12:43,811
It was arranged exactly like this,
907
01:12:43,846 --> 01:12:47,460
during his one-week stay here.
908
01:12:47,495 --> 01:12:53,077
Except the pictures you see on the walls
909
01:12:53,112 --> 01:12:58,659
weren't there during Barbie's occupancy.
910
01:12:58,694 --> 01:13:00,781
[Int. ] Those naked girls?
911
01:13:00,816 --> 01:13:05,816
The scantily-clad girls weren't up
on the wall when Barbie was here.
912
01:13:07,851 --> 01:13:10,816
He left after a week
for security reasons.
913
01:13:10,851 --> 01:13:15,281
[Int. ] This isn't maximum security?
914
01:13:15,316 --> 01:13:18,781
You see the building
overlooking the exercise yard?
915
01:13:18,816 --> 01:13:23,995
At exercise period, a sniper
could easily have shot him.
916
01:13:24,030 --> 01:13:29,608
At the least movement in the
yard, all cameras focused there.
917
01:13:30,643 --> 01:13:36,186
The press camped out night
and day trying to get a scoop.
918
01:13:39,686 --> 01:13:44,651
He said his life was over.
His wife and son dead.
919
01:13:44,686 --> 01:13:49,686
He was 71 at the time. He said
he didn't care what happened.
920
01:13:50,721 --> 01:13:54,467
Once we were talking, he said to me,
921
01:13:54,502 --> 01:13:59,467
"If there's anything we
should ban, it's war. "
922
01:13:59,502 --> 01:14:04,502
"As long as it's around though,
only one can speak. The winner. "
923
01:14:04,537 --> 01:14:10,188
[Spanish] In war you have to
win. Losers lose everything.
924
01:14:10,223 --> 01:14:13,653
I've forgotten.
925
01:14:13,688 --> 01:14:18,205
If THEY haven't, then
it's their problem.
926
01:14:18,240 --> 01:14:21,236
In any case I've forgotten.
927
01:14:21,435 --> 01:14:23,262
[Children singing in German]
928
01:14:38,411 --> 01:14:40,724
[Jacques Verg�s
- Attorney at law] [French] The film's about to start.
929
01:14:40,759 --> 01:14:44,772
I'm their prisoner, I can't get up.
930
01:14:45,455 --> 01:14:50,455
Would you close the door then?
Another crew is coming at 5.
931
01:14:51,490 --> 01:14:54,420
Have them wait in the blue parlor.
932
01:14:54,455 --> 01:14:59,472
[Int. ] Why would some
people agree to be interviewed
933
01:14:59,507 --> 01:15:02,083
only if Verg�s isn't?
934
01:15:03,083 --> 01:15:08,106
It attests to his diabolical skill
935
01:15:09,141 --> 01:15:14,106
and his way of dropping
insinuations, innuendoes.
936
01:15:14,141 --> 01:15:19,451
A man comes to France. He is presumed
guilty, said to be indefensible.
937
01:15:19,486 --> 01:15:24,580
I ask, "Why not defend him, and prove
no case in indefensible for a lawyer?"
938
01:15:26,615 --> 01:15:31,548
This is satisfying enough.
I'm the cheerful type.
939
01:15:31,583 --> 01:15:36,446
I had another reason,
too, for taking the case.
940
01:15:36,481 --> 01:15:41,061
I'm Eurasian, you know. I
grew up in a colonial society.
941
01:15:41,096 --> 01:15:46,519
Frankly, I can't say I'm a victim of
racial discrimination, now. I'm not.
942
01:15:47,554 --> 01:15:52,019
But I've lived in a society
full of discrimination.
943
01:15:52,054 --> 01:15:54,019
I defended Algerian freedom fighters.
944
01:15:55,019 --> 01:15:57,918
As an attorney,
945
01:15:57,953 --> 01:16:03,453
I believe that defending an
individual against any state
946
01:16:05,488 --> 01:16:08,637
is a function the defense must perform.
947
01:16:24,140 --> 01:16:27,140
You're giving him free publicity!
948
01:16:27,175 --> 01:16:29,105
This is disgusting!
949
01:16:29,140 --> 01:16:34,140
He's as cowardly as his
client, and just as offensive.
950
01:16:35,175 --> 01:16:37,105
You're all the same!
951
01:16:37,140 --> 01:16:42,140
After the army, I became a
student activist in Paris,
952
01:16:42,175 --> 01:16:47,140
with other students:
Vietnamese, Cambodian, Moroccan.
953
01:16:47,175 --> 01:16:49,605
[Int. ] Communist?
954
01:16:49,640 --> 01:16:53,765
I left the party during the
Battle of Algiers in 1957.
955
01:16:53,800 --> 01:16:58,800
I disagreed with the party's
policy on the colonial question.
956
01:16:59,835 --> 01:17:04,300
With Algerian independence,
I move to Algiers.
957
01:17:04,335 --> 01:17:06,343
I married, I practised law.
958
01:17:07,343 --> 01:17:12,843
The Algerian government asked me to defend
the first Palestinian Fedayeen arrested.
959
01:17:12,878 --> 01:17:14,268
That was 1965.
960
01:17:14,303 --> 01:17:18,382
[investigative journalist] The question
to ask Verg�s, the one he evades,
961
01:17:18,417 --> 01:17:21,501
is what did he do in the gap 1970-78?
962
01:17:21,536 --> 01:17:25,536
An absence so total that his
wife was declared a widow!
963
01:17:25,571 --> 01:17:31,036
I left the Algiers
practice, then for 8 years...
964
01:17:32,071 --> 01:17:35,001
[Int. ] The Verg�s gap!
965
01:17:35,036 --> 01:17:37,845
I led a private life. I won't elaborate.
966
01:17:37,880 --> 01:17:40,411
I have no political ambitions,
967
01:17:40,446 --> 01:17:46,322
not being a candidate for
office, I feel no need to explain.
968
01:17:47,357 --> 01:17:53,152
[president of Montruc prisoners association] He's always
been a sly politician. All his life a 1st rate politician.
969
01:17:54,187 --> 01:17:58,612
A remarkable man, not just a lawyer...
970
01:17:58,647 --> 01:18:03,032
Courageous.
971
01:18:03,067 --> 01:18:05,686
Not one bit! That's not the word.
972
01:18:05,721 --> 01:18:11,236
It took courage to defend Barbie
after the Algerian bomb-throwers.
973
01:18:11,271 --> 01:18:15,705
[film maker] I was shocked
to see the attorney,
974
01:18:15,740 --> 01:18:20,139
who used to defend
Algerian freedom-fighters,
975
01:18:20,174 --> 01:18:24,104
take on a client like Barbie.
976
01:18:24,139 --> 01:18:26,988
I guess I don't understand lawyers.
977
01:18:29,748 --> 01:18:34,748
In October '84, Ibrahim
Abdallah was arrested in Lyon.
978
01:18:35,783 --> 01:18:39,157
And who do you think he
hires? Jacques Verg�s.
979
01:18:39,192 --> 01:18:44,098
The recent Paris bombings were
to force Abdallah's release.
980
01:18:44,716 --> 01:18:50,188
I do my job. I'm completely
my own man, no outside...
981
01:18:52,223 --> 01:18:57,626
[int. ] I didn't ask that
yet! Money the usual question.
982
01:18:59,661 --> 01:19:04,161
People marvel when I say I'm not
paid. Barbie's not the only one.
983
01:19:04,196 --> 01:19:08,532
There's also Mr Abdallah.
I do it for free.
984
01:19:08,567 --> 01:19:12,868
[int. ] Let me ask a
question. Who is Genoud?
985
01:19:12,903 --> 01:19:15,572
Who's Fran�ois Genoud?
986
01:19:15,607 --> 01:19:21,136
A Swiss financier. Not a banker as
people claim. A rather complicated life.
987
01:19:23,171 --> 01:19:26,113
He flirted a bit with the Third Reich.
988
01:19:26,148 --> 01:19:30,648
He was totally pro-Nazi
before and during the war.
989
01:19:30,683 --> 01:19:35,577
I met him during the Algerian War,
990
01:19:35,612 --> 01:19:40,436
at Arab parties in Switzerland.
991
01:19:40,471 --> 01:19:44,962
Later he dealt with the PLO movement.
992
01:19:44,997 --> 01:19:48,781
Habash's ultra-Marxist wing.
993
01:19:48,816 --> 01:19:52,355
- [Int. ] Genoud isn't your financier...?
- Absolutely not.
994
01:19:54,890 --> 01:19:59,890
Many see a contradiction in this swing
from extreme left to the extreme right.
995
01:20:00,925 --> 01:20:05,622
Yet those extremes meet,
fighting the Jews and Israel.
996
01:20:05,657 --> 01:20:10,657
It's the old ploy: Go after the
lawyer when you can't build a case.
997
01:20:11,692 --> 01:20:17,201
And Verg�s began acting as
prosecutor instead of defender.
998
01:20:17,236 --> 01:20:20,640
It's cigars you smell, not brimstone.
999
01:20:20,675 --> 01:20:24,140
The best Havana cigars.
1000
01:20:25,061 --> 01:20:26,526
I am a lawyer.
1001
01:20:26,561 --> 01:20:31,507
When people want to lynch a man,
my instinct is to shield him,
1002
01:20:31,542 --> 01:20:35,629
and say "they'll do
it over my dead body. "
1003
01:20:35,664 --> 01:20:40,664
Do you believe in human
justice in a bourgeois society?
1004
01:20:40,699 --> 01:20:44,914
I believe in the rules we operate by.
1005
01:20:44,949 --> 01:20:45,914
[Int. ] In our society?
1006
01:20:46,914 --> 01:20:48,914
[Verg�s] In the Barbie
case I'm defending.
1007
01:20:48,949 --> 01:20:51,199
[Usher] Court's in session!
1008
01:20:51,234 --> 01:20:54,418
The judicial system against false use.
1009
01:20:54,453 --> 01:20:56,433
[Children singing in German]
1010
01:21:29,068 --> 01:21:32,950
His morale's good and his health's
bad, for a reason nobody disputes.
1011
01:21:32,985 --> 01:21:38,731
A month before his arrest
in Bolivia, he had a stroke,
1012
01:21:38,766 --> 01:21:44,478
that left him with a slight
limp and severe leg pains.
1013
01:21:44,513 --> 01:21:49,065
The only treatment he is getting
1014
01:21:49,100 --> 01:21:53,553
is the kind prison vets
give their livestock...
1015
01:21:53,588 --> 01:21:57,553
aspirin for headaches,
and sleeping pills.
1016
01:21:57,588 --> 01:22:00,518
And laxatives.
1017
01:22:00,553 --> 01:22:06,441
Not much of a treatment for his ailment.
1018
01:22:09,011 --> 01:22:14,627
My request he be examined by
experts of my choice was refused.
1019
01:22:14,662 --> 01:22:20,243
Never under France's 40 kings,
five republics and two emperors,
1020
01:22:20,278 --> 01:22:23,964
have over 10 years
separated crime and trial.
1021
01:22:23,999 --> 01:22:25,907
He told me,
1022
01:22:25,942 --> 01:22:30,942
"In 3 years I haven't seen an
animal, a plant, or even the sky.
1023
01:22:39,832 --> 01:22:43,508
Total solitary confinement is inhuman.
1024
01:22:52,082 --> 01:22:54,547
[French] How did Verg�s get the case?
1025
01:22:54,582 --> 01:22:58,873
Well, there's Barbie's
daughter, a librarian in Vienna.
1026
01:22:58,908 --> 01:23:02,234
- No in Kurfstein.
- Well, in Austria anyway.
1027
01:23:02,269 --> 01:23:05,684
She's allowed to see her father,
1028
01:23:05,719 --> 01:23:09,100
and she wanted Verg�s to defend him.
1029
01:23:10,262 --> 01:23:15,477
[German] It's not easy to
help in a situation like this.
1030
01:23:16,512 --> 01:23:21,217
All we can do is to
continue to visit him.
1031
01:23:21,252 --> 01:23:24,770
[French] He needed background
from those who knew him.
1032
01:23:24,805 --> 01:23:28,891
Naturally, his daughter knew him best.
1033
01:23:28,926 --> 01:23:32,977
[Int. ] I wouldn't
necessarily say "best".
1034
01:23:33,511 --> 01:23:35,694
There's the age difference.
1035
01:23:35,729 --> 01:23:40,555
[Int. ] Yes, people always
know one side of a person.
1036
01:23:40,590 --> 01:23:43,055
Of course, she'd have to defend him.
1037
01:23:44,055 --> 01:23:49,975
[German] You say Nazi,
but how clear is that?
1038
01:23:50,010 --> 01:23:55,896
[Int. ] A Nazi leader...
a Hitlerian leader.
1039
01:23:55,931 --> 01:24:01,757
It's hard for me to speak of Nazis,
1040
01:24:01,792 --> 01:24:06,225
since I can't really explain
1041
01:24:06,260 --> 01:24:10,623
what a national socialist is.
1042
01:24:10,658 --> 01:24:15,732
No one has ever explained it
to me. That's why I say that...
1043
01:24:15,767 --> 01:24:18,755
But I interrupted you. I'm sorry.
1044
01:24:18,790 --> 01:24:23,843
My mother played the piano.
So did he. Classical music.
1045
01:24:23,878 --> 01:24:28,423
But also pop tunes.
He loved to sing, too.
1046
01:24:28,458 --> 01:24:32,969
We all enjoyed singing.
We sang all the time.
1047
01:24:33,004 --> 01:24:36,934
We were a very very happy family.
1048
01:24:36,969 --> 01:24:42,209
[French] Mrs Messner pulled
out all the stops for us.
1049
01:24:42,244 --> 01:24:46,327
What do you expect. She's his daughter.
1050
01:24:46,362 --> 01:24:49,242
[Int. ] Can you say that in French?
1051
01:24:49,277 --> 01:24:50,614
- In French?
- Yes.
1052
01:24:50,649 --> 01:24:55,295
He is a very good father.
1053
01:24:55,330 --> 01:24:59,907
Very loving, very tender.
1054
01:24:59,942 --> 01:25:04,711
He was a very
sweet father-in-law.
1055
01:25:04,746 --> 01:25:08,792
He was always very nice to me,
1056
01:25:08,827 --> 01:25:12,803
even after my husband died.
1057
01:25:12,838 --> 01:25:15,929
Mrs Crozier knew him in Bolivia,
1058
01:25:15,964 --> 01:25:19,021
and could vividly describe him.
1059
01:25:19,056 --> 01:25:21,139
He had many friends.
1060
01:25:21,174 --> 01:25:25,052
He helped friends with their problems.
1061
01:25:25,087 --> 01:25:29,051
- [Int. ] A good man.
- Yes, good.
1062
01:25:29,086 --> 01:25:32,551
This young woman had been deceived,
1063
01:25:32,586 --> 01:25:35,981
because when she married Barbie's son
1064
01:25:36,016 --> 01:25:38,943
she didn't know who
her father-in-law was.
1065
01:25:38,978 --> 01:25:41,906
[Int. ] Are you sure?
- I'm quite sure.
1066
01:25:41,941 --> 01:25:44,835
[Int. French] Did you
know about his past?
1067
01:25:44,870 --> 01:25:49,800
No, I didn't know exactly,
1068
01:25:49,835 --> 01:25:54,794
but still, I felt there was something...
1069
01:25:54,829 --> 01:25:58,443
[Int. ] To hear you speak of
his love for your children,
1070
01:25:58,478 --> 01:26:03,943
knowing he's been charged
with atrocities in Lyon,
1071
01:26:04,978 --> 01:26:08,408
is jarring.
1072
01:26:08,443 --> 01:26:11,000
It's jarring for us, too.
1073
01:26:11,035 --> 01:26:13,580
Think of this woman
1074
01:26:13,615 --> 01:26:17,690
with 3 children named
Barbie. What a legacy!
1075
01:26:17,725 --> 01:26:21,765
I'm not the only Frenchwoman
to marry a German.
1076
01:26:23,256 --> 01:26:25,987
[Choir sings German folk song]
1077
01:26:30,299 --> 01:26:35,299
[French] I was 18 in 1944,
and in those days I was,
1078
01:26:37,334 --> 01:26:40,971
like most young people then, hungry.
1079
01:26:41,006 --> 01:26:45,061
[restaurant owner in Lyon] It was
a time when everything was rationed.
1080
01:26:45,096 --> 01:26:50,240
There were coupons for
bread, meat, butter,
1081
01:26:50,275 --> 01:26:53,567
for oil and all the fats.
1082
01:26:53,602 --> 01:26:57,132
Coupons for everything, even potatoes.
1083
01:26:57,167 --> 01:27:00,376
There was a caf� in Lyon,
which was frightful...
1084
01:27:00,411 --> 01:27:04,802
because it was one of the
few places which was cheap.
1085
01:27:04,837 --> 01:27:09,158
And you had a lot of people
in it, who knew it was cheap.
1086
01:27:09,193 --> 01:27:12,757
When you go into a caf� and you see
a lot of people who wink at you...
1087
01:27:12,792 --> 01:27:15,422
you don't go next time, because
you know this is dangerous.
1088
01:27:15,457 --> 01:27:20,594
[French] Restaurants served army
people, militia men, the Gestapo,
1089
01:27:21,629 --> 01:27:24,560
in order to serve other clients, too.
1090
01:27:24,595 --> 01:27:29,046
During the war, restaurants
played it both ways...
1091
01:27:29,081 --> 01:27:33,267
one room for the Resistance,
one for the Germans.
1092
01:27:33,302 --> 01:27:37,634
The best caf� I went to,
was one next to the Gestapo.
1093
01:27:37,669 --> 01:27:41,931
- Le Moulin � Vente?
- No, it was called La Concorde.
1094
01:27:41,966 --> 01:27:44,216
[restaurant proprietor] [French]
The main topic was Montluc.
1095
01:27:44,466 --> 01:27:46,426
and those poor men there.
1096
01:27:46,461 --> 01:27:50,317
- It was Barbie's headquarters?
- Rue Paul Lantier.
1097
01:27:50,352 --> 01:27:55,528
It was nearby, that
nice house on the corner.
1098
01:27:55,563 --> 01:27:56,749
A very convenient caf�,
1099
01:27:56,784 --> 01:27:59,214
because it was full of
Germans and Gestapo people.
1100
01:27:59,249 --> 01:28:03,439
So the Gestapo wouldn't dream
of looking for someone there.
1101
01:28:03,474 --> 01:28:06,974
Whereas the other caf�, with the
Resistance people, was dangerous...
1102
01:28:07,009 --> 01:28:09,505
but you had to eat somewhere.
1103
01:28:11,184 --> 01:28:14,184
- [French] People were hungry.
- Thirsty too.
1104
01:28:14,219 --> 01:28:19,275
- Crispy skin chicken.
- Here.
1105
01:28:20,310 --> 01:28:23,788
People then were hungry.
Lots of dried vegetables
1106
01:28:23,823 --> 01:28:26,764
Ration coupons for everything!
1107
01:28:30,071 --> 01:28:33,036
One time, Mr Vettard found a lobster.
1108
01:28:33,071 --> 01:28:36,327
We hid it to eat that
night after we closed.
1109
01:28:36,362 --> 01:28:40,434
We sat down to eat it in private.
1110
01:28:40,469 --> 01:28:44,969
Then a German officer
saw us and came in.
1111
01:28:45,004 --> 01:28:49,434
"What a feast!" He sat down with us.
1112
01:28:49,469 --> 01:28:53,708
- He ate it all?
- We had to give him some.
1113
01:28:53,743 --> 01:28:56,527
Of course... it was a time when...
1114
01:28:56,562 --> 01:28:59,311
What dreadful things we remember.
1115
01:28:59,428 --> 01:29:03,056
[New York Times] I remember my interview
last autumn with the French President
1116
01:29:03,091 --> 01:29:08,578
and Mitterand, who brought Barbie
back... I asked him a question about...
1117
01:29:10,520 --> 01:29:15,765
Vichy... Isn't France afraid of having
Vichy really exposed as collaborationist.
1118
01:29:17,800 --> 01:29:22,976
He said Vichy wasn't collaborationist...
there were collaborationists within Vichy.
1119
01:29:25,011 --> 01:29:30,824
The Vichy government was not collaborationist, he said
and I don't know how to translate it into English...
1120
01:29:30,859 --> 01:29:32,624
It was spineless.
1121
01:29:32,659 --> 01:29:37,606
I said to myself "I want
to interview this man...
1122
01:29:37,641 --> 01:29:41,321
after he's no longer president,
and see what he says then. "
1123
01:29:41,356 --> 01:29:46,951
When I took 2 or 3 people who are 50 or 60
years old and who lived through the war...
1124
01:29:47,986 --> 01:29:52,878
they say the French Resistance
did a lot of good things...
1125
01:29:52,913 --> 01:29:58,695
and it's the only French thing
that saved the honor of France.
1126
01:29:58,730 --> 01:30:04,442
But part of the Resistance,
that came later, much later...
1127
01:30:04,477 --> 01:30:09,629
are the ones who speak out loud
about what the French Resistance was.
1128
01:30:11,664 --> 01:30:14,966
What you're saying, is that for
you as a schoolgirl in France,
1129
01:30:15,001 --> 01:30:17,752
the Resistance was not heroic.
1130
01:30:17,787 --> 01:30:21,647
Yes, there's a flaw
somewhere in the middle.
1131
01:30:21,682 --> 01:30:25,257
So you have some admiration or
love or respect for the '30s.
1132
01:30:25,292 --> 01:30:31,036
Yes, that's right. I'm someone who's
27 and maybe having stupid ideals...
1133
01:30:34,071 --> 01:30:36,888
I think I knew they
were fighting each other.
1134
01:30:37,565 --> 01:30:41,500
[former assistant to Jean Moulin]
[French] Especially at that time...
1135
01:30:41,535 --> 01:30:46,606
disagreements were at
first over politics,
1136
01:30:48,641 --> 01:30:52,355
strategy, method,
1137
01:30:52,390 --> 01:30:56,034
out of which grew...
1138
01:30:56,069 --> 01:31:00,742
since there are no angels
in politics or war...
1139
01:31:00,777 --> 01:31:04,292
personality clashes,
1140
01:31:04,327 --> 01:31:07,879
ambition and rivalries.
1141
01:31:07,914 --> 01:31:11,396
With Jean Moulin gone,
1142
01:31:11,431 --> 01:31:16,087
Frenay began negotiating directly
1143
01:31:16,122 --> 01:31:19,122
with the US secret
services in Switzerland...
1144
01:31:19,157 --> 01:31:22,622
- With Allen Dulles?
- Allen Dulles.
1145
01:31:22,657 --> 01:31:27,297
To get arms and money
1146
01:31:27,332 --> 01:31:32,507
in exchange for military information.
1147
01:31:33,542 --> 01:31:37,375
But to have a Swiss connection
1148
01:31:37,410 --> 01:31:40,507
was perfectly normal,
1149
01:31:40,542 --> 01:31:42,472
with none of the drawbacks.
1150
01:31:42,507 --> 01:31:44,367
[Int. ] Moulin was against it.
1151
01:31:44,402 --> 01:31:49,757
Moulin wasn't against it. De Gaulle was.
1152
01:31:50,792 --> 01:31:56,112
Can any government
allow a private citizen
1153
01:31:57,147 --> 01:32:00,801
to negotiate with a foreign power.
1154
01:32:00,836 --> 01:32:06,218
- [Int. ] Foreign but allied.
- Allies are foreign.
1155
01:32:06,253 --> 01:32:09,353
Not enemies... but foreigners.
1156
01:32:09,388 --> 01:32:12,562
[Int. ] In a war, an ally is an ally.
1157
01:32:12,597 --> 01:32:15,804
Listen, de Gaulle was right...
1158
01:32:15,839 --> 01:32:21,570
in always treating the allies
like the foreigners they are.
1159
01:32:23,605 --> 01:32:25,849
But not like enemies...
1160
01:32:25,884 --> 01:32:29,777
Barbie knew of the
Resistance's rivalries,
1161
01:32:29,812 --> 01:32:33,671
and of the contacts
between Dulles in Bern
1162
01:32:33,706 --> 01:32:37,056
with some of the Resistance groups.
1163
01:32:37,716 --> 01:32:39,246
He was well-informed.
1164
01:32:39,281 --> 01:32:44,345
[Int. ] Barbie maintains he belonged
to the Canaris-Karl Wolff group,
1165
01:32:45,380 --> 01:32:48,027
that had contacts with the Americans.
1166
01:32:48,062 --> 01:32:52,813
[producer of "The Bitter Truth"] He once
said, "I not only knew, but received orders. "
1167
01:32:52,848 --> 01:32:57,732
[int. ] Is that how he explains
1168
01:32:57,767 --> 01:33:01,267
why the Americans
protected him after the war?
1169
01:33:01,302 --> 01:33:03,542
He was hired immediately.
1170
01:33:03,577 --> 01:33:05,747
[Int. ] In '45?
- Yes.
1171
01:33:05,782 --> 01:33:10,990
Immediately after leaving
Lyon in '44, he was protected.
1172
01:33:14,976 --> 01:33:19,476
[Int. ] So his arrival in
Memmingen in '47 was no accident?
1173
01:33:19,511 --> 01:33:20,906
Is that your theory?
1174
01:33:20,941 --> 01:33:24,244
My theories end with Moulin's arrest.
1175
01:33:24,279 --> 01:33:28,187
3 years after Barbie's return,
1176
01:33:28,222 --> 01:33:30,260
we're discussing
1177
01:33:30,295 --> 01:33:34,072
the exact judicial
scope of the indictment,
1178
01:33:34,107 --> 01:33:37,199
and what charges are to be made.
1179
01:33:38,654 --> 01:33:44,306
The court decided that "war crimes"
could be also "crimes against humanity".
1180
01:33:49,122 --> 01:33:51,400
- Which means...
- The Appeals Court decided?
1181
01:33:51,435 --> 01:33:52,812
The Appeals Court, yes..
1182
01:33:53,980 --> 01:33:56,769
[French] I see Barbie as
an enemy of humanity...
1183
01:33:56,804 --> 01:33:59,269
Which he's never denied.
1184
01:34:02,442 --> 01:34:07,827
I think you're wrong
to confuse the 2 issues.
1185
01:34:08,862 --> 01:34:12,698
It's more important to confront Barbie
1186
01:34:12,733 --> 01:34:16,534
with the horror of his systematic murder
1187
01:34:16,569 --> 01:34:18,399
of people who were different.
1188
01:34:18,434 --> 01:34:22,009
We are told of limits for war crimes,
1189
01:34:22,044 --> 01:34:25,550
and that it's pointless
to question this.
1190
01:34:25,585 --> 01:34:29,967
But since crimes against
humanity aren't prescribed,
1191
01:34:30,002 --> 01:34:35,016
somebody like Barbie
comes in very handy.
1192
01:34:38,051 --> 01:34:43,207
His case became a symbol
for the entire Nazi regime.
1193
01:34:44,242 --> 01:34:47,758
[Int. ] It may seem
shocking to many people
1194
01:34:47,793 --> 01:34:52,793
that lethal torture,
gratuitous sadism be forgotten.
1195
01:34:54,828 --> 01:34:58,801
Who is forgetting? These are war crimes,
1196
01:34:58,836 --> 01:35:02,555
and they, like crimes of terrorism,
1197
01:35:02,590 --> 01:35:06,239
have a 20-year limit on prosecution.
1198
01:35:06,274 --> 01:35:10,980
The only crime exempt against this
is the crime against humanity...
1199
01:35:11,015 --> 01:35:16,456
as was decided at Nuremberg
and adopted by France in '64.
1200
01:35:16,491 --> 01:35:20,006
It is a crime against a whole population
1201
01:35:20,041 --> 01:35:23,471
on the basis of its origins.
1202
01:35:23,506 --> 01:35:28,254
There's been a huge amount of propaganda
1203
01:35:29,096 --> 01:35:33,194
during the last number of years..
1204
01:35:33,229 --> 01:35:36,482
in order to try and prove that
the Nazis murdered all those Jews.
1205
01:35:36,517 --> 01:35:40,095
[French] These were
the crimes against Jews.
1206
01:35:40,130 --> 01:35:42,504
I know of no others.
1207
01:35:42,539 --> 01:35:45,583
So, it took up a large
part of the press.
1208
01:35:45,618 --> 01:35:48,121
[French] The only children
deported from France
1209
01:35:48,156 --> 01:35:51,529
were Jews and Gypsies.
1210
01:35:51,564 --> 01:35:57,148
[Int. ] And the non-Jewish
children at Izieu?
1211
01:35:58,183 --> 01:36:02,238
And in the raid on Izieu,
the only non-Jewish child,
1212
01:36:02,273 --> 01:36:06,402
once properly identified, was
let off the truck by the Germans.
1213
01:36:06,437 --> 01:36:08,083
and allowed to go home.
1214
01:36:08,768 --> 01:36:14,614
And I think that the French
court... get nervous, get upset
1215
01:36:15,649 --> 01:36:21,421
if one says "Crimes from the
Nazis... only against the Jews. "
1216
01:36:21,456 --> 01:36:27,194
They could have said crimes of
the Nazis also against the Gypsies.
1217
01:36:27,229 --> 01:36:30,020
But the French people
don't like the Gypsies!
1218
01:36:30,055 --> 01:36:31,733
Why bring them in?
1219
01:36:32,212 --> 01:36:36,680
So you have to demonstrate the
crime was against good French.
1220
01:36:36,715 --> 01:36:39,261
And "good French"?...
what is a "good French"?
1221
01:36:39,854 --> 01:36:40,747
The Resistance was.
1222
01:36:40,782 --> 01:36:43,408
It's why they want to
be in the Resistance...
1223
01:36:44,050 --> 01:36:46,028
because everybody wants to...
1224
01:36:48,744 --> 01:36:50,381
"Get in on the act" of the victim!
1225
01:36:50,955 --> 01:36:54,474
[French] Why all these apprehensions?
What's on the court's mind?
1226
01:36:54,509 --> 01:36:58,062
Why are they afraid?
1227
01:36:58,097 --> 01:37:03,932
It's because it has all
become a political affair.
1228
01:37:05,967 --> 01:37:11,045
How can you even hold such a trial,
1229
01:37:11,080 --> 01:37:12,703
when no one puts war crimes
1230
01:37:12,738 --> 01:37:18,725
and crimes against humanity
in Algeria on the stand?
1231
01:37:18,760 --> 01:37:21,741
I was told that's different.
1232
01:37:21,776 --> 01:37:25,764
Now the appeals court agrees with me.
1233
01:37:25,799 --> 01:37:31,299
It counts all the horrors of
war as crimes against humanity.
1234
01:37:31,334 --> 01:37:34,242
We can't avoid the premise
1235
01:37:34,277 --> 01:37:39,064
on which Barbie's defense will rest.
1236
01:37:39,099 --> 01:37:44,145
Wasn't torture necessary
for obtaining information?
1237
01:37:45,180 --> 01:37:50,331
Then they will say the French
did the same thing in Algeria.
1238
01:37:51,366 --> 01:37:53,736
Massu's books admit use of torture.
1239
01:37:53,771 --> 01:37:59,224
Argout's books admit that
bored paratroopers on leave
1240
01:37:59,259 --> 01:38:01,824
slew women and children for kicks.
1241
01:38:01,859 --> 01:38:07,005
[local leader of right-wing "National Front"] [Int. ]
You're saying that if Le Pen tortured people in Algeria
1242
01:38:08,040 --> 01:38:11,331
it was on government orders?
1243
01:38:11,366 --> 01:38:12,796
I think so.
1244
01:38:12,831 --> 01:38:17,296
[Int. ] But that's Barbie's defense,
1245
01:38:17,331 --> 01:38:22,825
that he was following
orders... the classic defense.
1246
01:38:22,860 --> 01:38:28,320
That obviously raises questions
of group responsibility
1247
01:38:28,355 --> 01:38:32,717
which are far from being...
1248
01:38:32,752 --> 01:38:37,752
[Int. ] "Befehl ist befehl"... You
know German "Orders are orders. "
1249
01:38:37,787 --> 01:38:43,074
The classic defense in
all war-crime trials.
1250
01:38:44,109 --> 01:38:47,574
So Verg�s is right?
1251
01:38:50,833 --> 01:38:55,872
That's a trick question.
Verg�s is doing his job.
1252
01:38:56,907 --> 01:39:00,507
My personal opinion?
1253
01:39:00,542 --> 01:39:06,474
It's an old story. It's
old business by now.
1254
01:39:09,509 --> 01:39:12,694
It was 40 years ago.
1255
01:39:12,729 --> 01:39:17,452
[national leader of "National
Front"] I'm fascinated by WW2 history.
1256
01:39:17,487 --> 01:39:20,312
I'd like to ask certain questions.
1257
01:39:20,347 --> 01:39:25,847
I'm not saying there
were no gas chambers...
1258
01:39:25,882 --> 01:39:30,918
Of course I never saw
any myself. I studied it.
1259
01:39:30,953 --> 01:39:35,235
But I think it's a minor
point in WW2 history.
1260
01:39:35,270 --> 01:39:39,483
[Journalist] 6 million
Jews is a minor point?
1261
01:39:39,518 --> 01:39:43,590
[Journalist] 6 million
dead. Did I misunderstand?
1262
01:39:45,652 --> 01:39:48,651
Journ. ] Dead Jews...
is that a minor point?
1263
01:39:48,686 --> 01:39:53,087
But the question is how and
whether they were killed, right?
1264
01:39:53,122 --> 01:39:57,414
- But that's no minor point.
- It is for the war.
1265
01:39:57,449 --> 01:40:03,180
[Int. ] You deny that the "Final
Solution" was a plot to murder people?
1266
01:40:03,215 --> 01:40:08,449
I deny that my client
participated in it.
1267
01:40:10,484 --> 01:40:12,854
- In the final solution?
- Yes.
1268
01:40:14,019 --> 01:40:17,675
[Federal prosecutor of Nazi crimes] [German]
So often people knew that these Jewish people
1269
01:40:17,710 --> 01:40:22,977
were sent to death camps to be killed.
1270
01:40:23,012 --> 01:40:27,216
[Int. French] Memos from
Dannecker were circulated
1271
01:40:27,251 --> 01:40:32,032
to Gestapo agents, instructing them
1272
01:40:32,067 --> 01:40:36,779
how to herd Jews to the gas chambers.
1273
01:40:36,814 --> 01:40:41,426
Are you claiming that your
client did not receive them?
1274
01:40:42,225 --> 01:40:47,135
One of the many odd things
about this unusual file,
1275
01:40:47,170 --> 01:40:50,330
is that you, Mr Ophuls,
knew of this document,
1276
01:40:50,365 --> 01:40:53,295
while I, the defense, wasn't shown it.
1277
01:40:53,330 --> 01:40:57,099
[Prosecutor-general, Lyon] No
document used in establishing our case
1278
01:40:57,134 --> 01:41:01,700
in the pre-trial hearings,
came from outside that file.
1279
01:41:01,735 --> 01:41:05,200
[Int. ] the prosecution
has the document.
1280
01:41:05,235 --> 01:41:07,787
Yes, but it wasn�t given to me.
1281
01:41:07,822 --> 01:41:10,642
All the documents are in the record.
1282
01:41:10,677 --> 01:41:13,156
[Int. ] the defense has access to it?
1283
01:41:13,191 --> 01:41:15,601
All parties did, without exception.
1284
01:41:15,636 --> 01:41:20,713
- The defense also?
- Particularly the defense.
1285
01:41:20,748 --> 01:41:24,481
Verg�s never studies
files. Anything goes.
1286
01:41:24,516 --> 01:41:29,051
[German] As you know, the
authenticity of the documents
1287
01:41:29,086 --> 01:41:31,551
has just been contested by the defense.
1288
01:41:31,586 --> 01:41:34,299
We have originals now, not copies.
1289
01:41:34,334 --> 01:41:40,239
It came as no surprise. I
told the prosecutor myself,
1290
01:41:40,274 --> 01:41:45,671
and he conceded it was his
first trial of this sort.
1291
01:41:45,706 --> 01:41:51,068
Our lawyers in Nazi trials
also started off questioning
1292
01:41:53,628 --> 01:41:56,468
[on French TV news] If
they say the documents prove
1293
01:41:56,503 --> 01:42:01,562
that Barbie is responsible for
transferring Jewish children
1294
01:42:01,597 --> 01:42:05,602
from Lyon to Drancy, I�m forced to state
1295
01:42:05,637 --> 01:42:09,673
that it's a crude forgery.
1296
01:42:09,708 --> 01:42:13,498
[int. ] Do you still question
the authenticity of the telex?
1297
01:42:13,533 --> 01:42:16,188
More than ever.
1298
01:42:16,223 --> 01:42:18,965
[Int. ] Was it altered? Was it forged?
1299
01:42:19,000 --> 01:42:20,430
It's a fake.
1300
01:42:20,465 --> 01:42:24,101
This "fake" must have
predated Nuremberg.
1301
01:42:24,136 --> 01:42:27,703
But I was too young to be a forger then,
1302
01:42:27,738 --> 01:42:33,252
because Verg�s claims I
was behind the forgery.
1303
01:42:33,287 --> 01:42:37,181
Only there is no forgery.
1304
01:42:37,216 --> 01:42:38,642
At Nuremberg...
1305
01:42:38,677 --> 01:42:40,657
[Int. ] But Klarsfeld was too young...
1306
01:42:40,692 --> 01:42:44,637
The French envoy's age,
1307
01:42:44,672 --> 01:42:48,801
but never mentioned Barbie's
name was typed below it.
1308
01:42:48,836 --> 01:42:52,904
[Int. German] So it's implied
the issue is that Jewish groups
1309
01:42:52,939 --> 01:42:54,810
forged it after the war.
1310
01:42:54,845 --> 01:42:58,766
How would the Allies
at the end of the war,
1311
01:42:58,801 --> 01:43:03,972
have known who Barbie was?
He was really very small fry.
1312
01:43:05,007 --> 01:43:09,190
[Int. ] Even at Nuremberg,
the telex was signed?
1313
01:43:09,225 --> 01:43:13,305
Yes, even in 1946 at
Nuremberg, it was debated,
1314
01:43:13,340 --> 01:43:17,351
as was the whole case
of the Izieu children.
1315
01:43:17,386 --> 01:43:23,199
[French] The photostats
were published repeatedly,
1316
01:43:23,234 --> 01:43:29,013
but their composition was
changed for layout purposes.
1317
01:43:29,048 --> 01:43:30,841
[int. ] Verg�s played on that.
1318
01:43:30,876 --> 01:43:35,341
Yes, but you saw what happened in court.
1319
01:43:35,376 --> 01:43:38,927
While Verg�s spoke, the jurors
was looking at the original.
1320
01:43:41,027 --> 01:43:44,227
[Choir sings German folksong]
1321
01:43:53,479 --> 01:43:58,979
[Int. ] Mr Prosecutor, while
Barbie was in the courtroom,
1322
01:43:59,014 --> 01:44:04,792
why did you ask him to
speak about his youth?
1323
01:44:09,970 --> 01:44:14,502
Because I think there's a
basic issue in this case:
1324
01:44:14,537 --> 01:44:19,034
How can crimes against
humanity be committed by a man?
1325
01:44:19,069 --> 01:44:22,999
There is a man. Who is he?
1326
01:44:23,034 --> 01:44:27,004
[Journalist] What made
you decide to leave?
1327
01:44:27,039 --> 01:44:29,715
[German] I have nothing to say.
1328
01:44:30,516 --> 01:44:32,622
[German] Nothing to say.
[Journalist] Nothing to say?
1329
01:44:34,159 --> 01:44:36,985
[special correspondent "Liberation"]
[French] Can they extradite him? No.
1330
01:44:37,020 --> 01:44:42,763
I can't see what
grounds they would have.
1331
01:44:42,798 --> 01:44:47,342
I'll send you a 6-page story
about today's proceedings.
1332
01:44:47,377 --> 01:44:51,886
I don't know yet if Holford
and Streim testify today,
1333
01:44:51,921 --> 01:44:54,301
or witnesses of the raid on Ugif,
1334
01:44:54,336 --> 01:44:57,970
Barbie's raid on the Union
of French Jews office.
1335
01:44:58,005 --> 01:45:03,261
They'll be the first real
witnesses. It'll be a good story.
1336
01:45:03,296 --> 01:45:08,762
[professor of languages] Behind
that table... desk... was Barbie.
1337
01:45:12,797 --> 01:45:18,229
He started asking me questions in
German... and I didn't understand.
1338
01:45:22,264 --> 01:45:25,526
I pretended that I didn't
understand a word of German.
1339
01:45:30,127 --> 01:45:35,155
There was literally a captive
audience. Some of them I knew very well.
1340
01:45:40,279 --> 01:45:44,879
- Most of them died?
- All of them.
1341
01:45:46,527 --> 01:45:51,651
There were 3 Gestapo officers right behind
me... one of them was very close behind me.
1342
01:45:55,343 --> 01:45:58,194
Practically behind my left ear.
1343
01:45:59,761 --> 01:46:05,481
Pulled out a gun... I
could hear the click...
1344
01:46:07,865 --> 01:46:13,674
Saying in a low voice into my
left ear... but to the 2 others...
1345
01:46:15,709 --> 01:46:21,540
In German, well... "I may
as well finish him off. "
1346
01:46:22,575 --> 01:46:28,033
I controlled by reflexes, because I
knew if I showed any sign I understood...
1347
01:46:28,068 --> 01:46:31,252
My fate would be sealed.
1348
01:46:31,287 --> 01:46:34,022
He was now convinced that I
did not understand German...
1349
01:46:34,057 --> 01:46:38,484
and he gathered all my
documents, my papers...
1350
01:46:39,875 --> 01:46:43,450
and handed them to me
and said "You can go. "
1351
01:46:43,485 --> 01:46:44,837
[Int. French] Mr Truche
1352
01:46:44,872 --> 01:46:49,165
You've challenged several
witnesses' credibility.
1353
01:46:49,200 --> 01:46:53,696
Why did you challenge Michel Thomas?
1354
01:46:53,731 --> 01:46:57,369
My idea of serving justice
1355
01:46:57,404 --> 01:47:02,654
is to rely only on evidence
that cannot be contested.
1356
01:47:02,689 --> 01:47:07,904
[Int. ] What makes Thomas
less credible than the others?
1357
01:47:07,939 --> 01:47:10,869
His story is inconsistent.
1358
01:47:10,904 --> 01:47:14,409
Sometimes true stories
seem hard to believe.
1359
01:47:14,444 --> 01:47:19,326
I can't build my case on
what is hard to believe.
1360
01:47:21,058 --> 01:47:22,023
[agricultural worker]
1361
01:47:22,058 --> 01:47:25,996
[Int. ] Mr Favet, I
came here last February.
1362
01:47:26,031 --> 01:47:29,900
There was snow, and
it was lovely in fact.
1363
01:47:29,935 --> 01:47:35,371
You refused to see us then,
you wouldn't give an interview.
1364
01:47:36,406 --> 01:47:39,336
Could you say why?
1365
01:47:39,371 --> 01:47:43,462
I had at least one good reason...
1366
01:47:43,497 --> 01:47:47,111
[Favet] I've about had it! [Int. ] What?
1367
01:47:47,146 --> 01:47:50,725
- I've had it with the TV
- You've had it?
1368
01:47:52,824 --> 01:47:57,289
Julien Favet is a very fine man.
1369
01:47:57,324 --> 01:48:01,638
He really feels what he says.
But I can't say to people,
1370
01:48:01,673 --> 01:48:05,910
"You are to condemn a
man for serious crimes,"
1371
01:48:05,945 --> 01:48:10,147
"on testimony of a
witness who 40 years back,"
1372
01:48:10,182 --> 01:48:14,355
"saw someone for a few seconds. "
1373
01:48:14,390 --> 01:48:18,915
[int. ] More than that. He
says it was 2 or 3 minutes.
1374
01:48:18,950 --> 01:48:24,450
And he knew the children. It
was a major event in his life.
1375
01:48:24,485 --> 01:48:27,593
Of course, his testimony
about the children...
1376
01:48:27,628 --> 01:48:32,231
They liked me. I used to play with them.
1377
01:48:32,266 --> 01:48:36,213
[Int. ] You mentioned his accident.
1378
01:48:36,248 --> 01:48:41,433
You used the word "lobotomy".
That seems to have been a mistake.
1379
01:48:42,468 --> 01:48:44,815
I doubt I used it in court.
1380
01:48:45,499 --> 01:48:48,621
If I did use it in came from the file.
1381
01:48:48,656 --> 01:48:51,709
- A mistake in the files?
- Possibly.
1382
01:48:51,744 --> 01:48:56,143
[Int. ] Still, it has an
impact on this man's life,
1383
01:48:56,178 --> 01:48:57,853
challenging his credibility.
1384
01:48:57,888 --> 01:49:03,213
[attorney at law] Favet is handicapped...
an accident with a tree branch.
1385
01:49:03,248 --> 01:49:06,015
[Int. ] When he was a child?
1386
01:49:06,050 --> 01:49:09,956
Later, felling trees. More
recently, after the war.
1387
01:49:10,976 --> 01:49:16,726
I summoned Favet because he
was an eyewitness to the event.
1388
01:49:16,761 --> 01:49:22,476
I knew very well that his
credibility had been questioned.
1389
01:49:22,511 --> 01:49:25,427
[Int. ] Do the villagers believe him?
1390
01:49:25,462 --> 01:49:29,773
Oh, yes! Besides, he wasn't alone.
1391
01:49:29,808 --> 01:49:34,084
It was the morning of April 6, 1944.
1392
01:49:34,119 --> 01:49:37,550
As usual, I got up very early.
1393
01:49:37,585 --> 01:49:40,946
It was already full daylight.
1394
01:49:40,981 --> 01:49:45,446
The boss told me to dig near the vines,
1395
01:49:45,481 --> 01:49:50,286
to plant asparagus. As
I was crossing the yard,
1396
01:49:50,321 --> 01:49:55,057
2 of the kids called from
the dormitory windows,
1397
01:49:55,092 --> 01:49:59,592
"Mr Julien! tell Mrs Perticos"...
the wife of my boss...
1398
01:49:59,627 --> 01:50:03,592
"we can't take the
cows out this morning. "
1399
01:50:03,627 --> 01:50:06,166
"We have to clean the dorm. "
1400
01:50:06,201 --> 01:50:08,671
These 2 brothers often came over.
1401
01:50:08,706 --> 01:50:13,352
Had they that morning,
they would have been saved.
1402
01:50:13,387 --> 01:50:17,101
[director children's home at Izieu. ]
Favet is the type who belongs to the land.
1403
01:50:19,989 --> 01:50:23,261
- [int. ] To France?
- To the land.
1404
01:50:23,296 --> 01:50:26,028
Some kids, 7, 8, 10 years old...
1405
01:50:26,063 --> 01:50:28,725
tried to jump off the truck.
1406
01:50:28,760 --> 01:50:34,039
With my own eyes, it's
true, I saw a German soldier
1407
01:50:34,074 --> 01:50:36,960
kick a child hard in the stomach.
1408
01:50:36,995 --> 01:50:41,996
He probably told you how the children
brought him breakfast every day.
1409
01:50:44,031 --> 01:50:48,037
The day the Germans came,
he went out for a look,
1410
01:50:48,072 --> 01:50:51,107
because no one had brought him his food.
1411
01:50:51,142 --> 01:50:56,105
Maybe those kids would
have been found eventually,
1412
01:50:56,140 --> 01:51:01,069
but somebody sped things
up by betraying them.
1413
01:51:01,104 --> 01:51:02,822
[Int. ] They were betrayed?
1414
01:51:02,857 --> 01:51:06,985
Yes, by the militia.
1415
01:51:07,020 --> 01:51:11,679
[Int. ] Informed on...
do you know by whom?
1416
01:51:11,714 --> 01:51:15,106
Did you see the informer?
1417
01:51:15,141 --> 01:51:17,707
Yes, one of them, anyway.
1418
01:51:17,742 --> 01:51:20,264
[Int. ] When, and how?
1419
01:51:20,299 --> 01:51:22,751
- Mr Bourdon.
- Yes?
1420
01:51:22,786 --> 01:51:26,222
Barbie was with a militiaman.
1421
01:51:26,257 --> 01:51:30,257
Another, identically
dressed, was beside him.
1422
01:51:30,292 --> 01:51:33,214
That was Mr Bourdon.
1423
01:51:33,249 --> 01:51:38,249
All three were leaning on the
big stone troughs in the yard.
1424
01:51:39,284 --> 01:51:44,129
Barbie stayed 3 or 4
minutes, conferring with them.
1425
01:51:44,164 --> 01:51:46,094
He was facing me.
1426
01:51:46,129 --> 01:51:50,586
He said something to
me which I understood as
1427
01:51:50,621 --> 01:51:55,044
"Get out. " He turned
and walked away. I left.
1428
01:51:55,079 --> 01:51:57,349
He wasn't called to testify
1429
01:51:57,384 --> 01:52:02,536
at the first trial in 1947,
not Barbie's but Bourdon's.
1430
01:52:02,571 --> 01:52:06,058
- [Int. ] The informer?
- Yes, the informer.
1431
01:52:06,093 --> 01:52:09,319
Perticos was called
to testify, not Favet.
1432
01:52:09,354 --> 01:52:12,545
Perticos was a farmer. He's dead now.
1433
01:52:12,580 --> 01:52:15,510
Julien Favet was his hired hand.
1434
01:52:15,545 --> 01:52:20,241
Back then, servants never
testified if their masters did.
1435
01:52:20,276 --> 01:52:21,745
[Int. ] So what became of Bourdon?
1436
01:52:21,780 --> 01:52:25,733
- No idea. Never saw him again.
- he never returned?
1437
01:52:25,768 --> 01:52:29,447
Oh no! It wasn't the time for that.
1438
01:52:29,482 --> 01:52:31,943
[Int. ] German witnesses
could have testified
1439
01:52:31,978 --> 01:52:35,349
whether or not Barbie was present.
1440
01:52:35,384 --> 01:52:38,646
But German witnesses
won't come to France
1441
01:52:38,681 --> 01:52:40,622
to testify in such trials.
1442
01:52:40,657 --> 01:52:45,613
It's easier to blame
everything on Barbie and the SS.
1443
01:52:45,648 --> 01:52:50,570
Barbie and the SS are the
murderers. Open and shut case.
1444
01:52:50,605 --> 01:52:52,602
The case is closed.
1445
01:52:52,637 --> 01:52:56,279
Even today, the Wehmacht is still...
1446
01:52:56,314 --> 01:53:00,797
So no one wanted to
explore that side of it.
1447
01:53:00,832 --> 01:53:05,306
The problem wasn't who
arrested the children,
1448
01:53:05,341 --> 01:53:11,311
but who, when they got
to Montluc that evening,
1449
01:53:11,346 --> 01:53:17,281
decided to send them on
to Germany to their deaths.
1450
01:53:17,316 --> 01:53:21,914
It's monstrous to see
little kids, of 7 to 10,
1451
01:53:21,949 --> 01:53:26,512
kicked in the stomach,
hit with gun butts,
1452
01:53:26,547 --> 01:53:30,012
and carted off to the gas chambers.
1453
01:53:30,047 --> 01:53:32,059
[Woman] Before the arrests,
1454
01:53:32,094 --> 01:53:34,037
the Resistance supplied us.
1455
01:53:34,072 --> 01:53:36,260
[Int. ] The local partisans?
- Yes.
1456
01:53:36,295 --> 01:53:38,035
And from the Jura [mountains].
1457
01:53:38,070 --> 01:53:43,466
[Int. ] Did they know that
Jewish children were hidden there?
1458
01:53:43,501 --> 01:53:45,493
They knew very well.
1459
01:53:45,528 --> 01:53:49,855
[Int. ] And the village,
apart from the pro-Vichy mayor?
1460
01:53:49,890 --> 01:53:53,007
My husband saw the villagers often.
1461
01:53:53,042 --> 01:53:56,124
He bought vegetables from the farmers.
1462
01:53:56,159 --> 01:53:57,840
I remember old man Zlatin.
1463
01:53:57,875 --> 01:54:00,352
- [Int. ] Old man Zlatin.
- Yes.
1464
01:54:00,387 --> 01:54:04,313
He came daily for milk and vegetables.
1465
01:54:06,283 --> 01:54:09,590
I don't know what they thought.
1466
01:54:09,625 --> 01:54:13,262
Some were for the
mayor... others against.
1467
01:54:13,297 --> 01:54:17,110
[Int. ] The pro-Vichy
mayor? - Yes.
1468
01:54:17,145 --> 01:54:20,924
Even though the mayor wasn't invited,
1469
01:54:20,959 --> 01:54:23,217
to the monument's inauguration,
1470
01:54:23,252 --> 01:54:27,746
he was re-elected twice after the war.
1471
01:54:27,781 --> 01:54:32,781
On the monument, there's
a line from Hemingway.
1472
01:54:33,816 --> 01:54:36,415
"We are part of the continent,
1473
01:54:36,450 --> 01:54:41,346
"and each time a man
dies, we die a little. "
1474
01:54:41,381 --> 01:54:44,074
There was something else, too.
1475
01:54:44,109 --> 01:54:46,733
We are part of the continent and
1476
01:54:46,768 --> 01:54:52,233
Izieu was a small part of the continent.
1477
01:54:52,268 --> 01:54:56,663
I was introduced to Barbie
in Judge Riss's presence.
1478
01:54:56,698 --> 01:55:00,128
I was seated at an oval table.
1479
01:55:00,163 --> 01:55:04,895
There was also a
secretary and Mr Verg�s.
1480
01:55:04,930 --> 01:55:07,356
[Int. ] Who questioned?
- No one.
1481
01:55:07,391 --> 01:55:12,724
- No questions?
- Sometimes Verg�s smiled.
1482
01:55:13,759 --> 01:55:16,186
It was as if he thought
1483
01:55:16,221 --> 01:55:19,719
"Anything this man says is rubbish. "
1484
01:55:21,272 --> 01:55:23,594
The charges are unfounded.
1485
01:55:23,629 --> 01:55:27,725
Barbie is on trial as a
member of an organization.
1486
01:55:27,760 --> 01:55:33,691
What notions of justice.
Collective responsibility again
1487
01:55:33,726 --> 01:55:37,047
He said to reporters,
1488
01:55:37,082 --> 01:55:41,994
"The more precise the
witness statement was,
1489
01:55:42,029 --> 01:55:44,751
"The more fun we had. "
1490
01:55:44,786 --> 01:55:47,843
This trial is staged against France.
1491
01:55:47,878 --> 01:55:50,108
It tries to reopen old wounds.
1492
01:55:50,143 --> 01:55:55,155
So I think for the sake of
justice, truth and France...
1493
01:55:55,190 --> 01:55:58,417
we must say "No and no again!"
1494
01:55:58,452 --> 01:56:03,877
Everything I said to Verg�s,
felt like autumn leaves.
1495
01:56:03,912 --> 01:56:09,303
You rake them up or you let
them rot... no difference.
1496
01:56:09,895 --> 01:56:13,773
I say this trial is against
the interests of France.
1497
01:56:13,808 --> 01:56:17,378
We assert that France will be divided.
1498
01:56:17,413 --> 01:56:20,948
Continuing our past, and it's time...
1499
01:56:20,983 --> 01:56:24,549
...to go over... to go forward.
1500
01:56:24,584 --> 01:56:30,564
[writer] [French] It's 10.30
- and we are awaiting a verdict.
1501
01:56:31,077 --> 01:56:36,593
For me, this trial is pessimism.
1502
01:56:36,628 --> 01:56:39,926
The notion of a crime
against humanity...
1503
01:56:39,961 --> 01:56:44,224
the charge against Barbie
was never clarified.
1504
01:56:44,259 --> 01:56:47,659
The defense deliberately obscured it.
1505
01:56:47,694 --> 01:56:51,060
The State didn't present it properly.
1506
01:56:54,282 --> 01:56:59,429
All along we should have
pondered and deplored the fact
1507
01:56:59,464 --> 01:57:02,679
that a black, and Arab, a Bolivian,
1508
01:57:02,714 --> 01:57:05,894
and Verg�s, who claims Asian ancestry,
1509
01:57:05,929 --> 01:57:08,624
rose to defend a Nazi,
1510
01:57:08,659 --> 01:57:13,659
and did so because of their
race... their non-European status.
1511
01:57:13,694 --> 01:57:18,964
Imagine someone in 1945,
at the end of the war,
1512
01:57:18,999 --> 01:57:22,305
predicting in 20 or 30 years,
1513
01:57:22,340 --> 01:57:25,305
an SS torturer, charged and convicted,
1514
01:57:25,340 --> 01:57:28,810
would be defended by the people
the Nazis deemed subhuman.
1515
01:57:28,845 --> 01:57:31,800
It would have been a big joke.
1516
01:57:31,835 --> 01:57:34,721
It's a victory for democracy,
1517
01:57:34,756 --> 01:57:39,944
every time a defense lawyer
can plead as he sees fit.
1518
01:57:39,979 --> 01:57:43,393
What I would point out is this:
1519
01:57:43,428 --> 01:57:46,772
Barbie was convicted on all counts.
1520
01:57:46,807 --> 01:57:50,807
Not one extenuating
circumstance was granted,
1521
01:57:50,842 --> 01:57:53,807
every defense argument was rejected.
1522
01:57:53,842 --> 01:57:56,286
I would point out
1523
01:57:56,321 --> 01:58:02,263
that Lieutenant Barbie was
sentenced to life imprisonment.
1524
01:58:02,298 --> 01:58:04,425
whereas at Nuremberg...
1525
01:58:04,460 --> 01:58:09,017
Hitler's successor, Admiral Donitz,
1526
01:58:09,052 --> 01:58:13,813
did not receive a life sentence.
1527
01:58:13,848 --> 01:58:18,575
Clearly we are outdoing out mentors.
1528
01:58:18,610 --> 01:58:21,876
[Journalist] Will you appeal?
1529
01:58:27,236 --> 01:58:32,385
[Verg�s] We'll file an
appeal tomorrow of course.
1530
01:58:59,898 --> 01:59:05,349
[attorney-at-law] Justice, only justice,
and I'm very proud of the French justice.
1531
01:59:14,084 --> 01:59:19,084
[local "Le Progr�s" correspondent] [French]
I was at school when some children from Izieu
1532
01:59:23,119 --> 01:59:25,388
were boarding with our principal.
1533
01:59:25,423 --> 01:59:27,698
[Int. ] In Belley?
- Yes.
1534
01:59:27,733 --> 01:59:33,287
Next to me was a boy from the
Izieu home named Mayer Bulka,
1535
01:59:35,322 --> 01:59:40,752
whose parents came from Poland,
1536
01:59:40,787 --> 01:59:45,943
and had been rounded up in the
famous Vel d'Hiv raid in Paris.
1537
01:59:47,978 --> 01:59:51,943
Mayer knew perfectly well
where his parents were.
1538
01:59:51,978 --> 01:59:53,752
He knew.
1539
01:59:53,787 --> 01:59:55,757
[Int. ] When he was in school,
1540
01:59:55,792 --> 02:00:00,868
did he know his parents
had been deported?
1541
02:00:02,903 --> 02:00:06,480
They all suspected as much.
1542
02:00:06,515 --> 02:00:11,927
Maurice Gerenstein and
Max Balsam said much less.
1543
02:00:12,962 --> 02:00:18,351
Bulka sat beside me. We shared a desk.
1544
02:00:18,386 --> 02:00:23,386
Bulka was very withdrawn
and often very sad.
1545
02:00:23,421 --> 02:00:28,027
I remember the 3 boys
1546
02:00:28,062 --> 02:00:33,379
as being outstanding students,
especially in mathematics.
1547
02:00:34,414 --> 02:00:37,245
The older ones knew something was up.
1548
02:00:37,280 --> 02:00:42,343
Either someone told them,
or they figured it out.
1549
02:00:42,378 --> 02:00:46,213
I don't know which.
1550
02:00:46,248 --> 02:00:49,222
But the little ones...
1551
02:00:49,257 --> 02:00:52,161
how could they understand?
1552
02:00:52,196 --> 02:00:56,466
[Man] A letter from
Alice Jacqueline Lutzgart,
1553
02:00:56,501 --> 02:01:00,737
10 years old, to her
mother in southern France.
1554
02:01:00,772 --> 02:01:03,620
February 26, 1944.
1555
02:01:03,655 --> 02:01:08,315
"Dear Mummy, thank you for the clogs.
1556
02:01:08,350 --> 02:01:12,247
"My feet will be warm now
1557
02:01:12,282 --> 02:01:16,014
"The snow is melting
here and the sun is out.
1558
02:01:16,049 --> 02:01:19,323
"Soon it will be spring.
1559
02:01:19,358 --> 02:01:23,271
"How nice! Spring is lovely
with the trees blossoming
1560
02:01:23,306 --> 02:01:25,073
"and budding.
1561
02:01:25,108 --> 02:01:29,639
"I hope you got my letter
asking you to take pictures.
1562
02:01:29,674 --> 02:01:33,685
" I forget what the south looks like.
1563
02:01:33,720 --> 02:01:37,880
"Of course I was very
small when I lived there.
1564
02:01:37,915 --> 02:01:42,040
"Fanny's going to send me
the blue checkered skirt.
1565
02:01:42,075 --> 02:01:44,433
"I have nothing else to say,
1566
02:01:44,468 --> 02:01:47,968
"So I stop here and send you a big kiss.
1567
02:01:48,003 --> 02:01:52,179
"Your loving daughter Jacqueline. "
1568
02:01:52,214 --> 02:01:56,321
[Woman] I was so happy in this yard.
1569
02:01:56,356 --> 02:02:01,073
[Int. ] Where did you live?
- On the top floor.
1570
02:02:04,660 --> 02:02:10,160
My father was washing his hands
when the SS rang the doorbell.
1571
02:02:12,195 --> 02:02:14,996
He looked out
1572
02:02:15,031 --> 02:02:19,996
and saw the SS blocking
both exits. We had 2 doors.
1573
02:02:20,031 --> 02:02:25,151
I know you, you're the tenant,
or is that another gentleman?
1574
02:02:25,186 --> 02:02:29,624
- You look alike. [Int.
] No. I don't live here.
1575
02:02:29,659 --> 02:02:32,654
but you must know Mrs Lagrange.
1576
02:02:32,689 --> 02:02:35,614
Yes, but I can't quite place her.
1577
02:02:35,649 --> 02:02:38,649
Mrs Lagrange lived on
the floor above you.
1578
02:02:38,684 --> 02:02:40,791
But...
1579
02:02:40,826 --> 02:02:42,886
- Simone Kaddouche.
- Eh?
1580
02:02:42,921 --> 02:02:45,814
I'm Simone Kaddouche. I lived here.
1581
02:02:45,849 --> 02:02:48,673
- In Mrs Kaddouche's time?
- Yes.
1582
02:02:48,708 --> 02:02:54,273
How could I recognize
you? People change.
1583
02:02:54,308 --> 02:02:59,839
- You haven't changed.
- Sure I have, I'm 77!
1584
02:02:59,874 --> 02:03:03,606
What did you say your maiden name was?
1585
02:03:03,641 --> 02:03:06,595
- Kaddouche.
- Kaddouche.
1586
02:03:06,630 --> 02:03:09,595
I wouldn't have recognized you.
1587
02:03:09,630 --> 02:03:13,755
Your face was familiar,
but not the name.
1588
02:03:13,790 --> 02:03:17,076
[Int. ] Were you here when
the Kaddouches were arrested?
1589
02:03:17,111 --> 02:03:19,893
- Yes.
- [Int. ] Did you see it?
1590
02:03:19,928 --> 02:03:23,100
Yes, I moved here in 1942.
1591
02:03:23,135 --> 02:03:26,790
[Int. ] Then you were
here when the SS came.
1592
02:03:26,825 --> 02:03:30,070
- When what?
- [Int. ] When the SS came
1593
02:03:30,105 --> 02:03:34,608
I can't recall if it was
in the street or here.
1594
02:03:34,643 --> 02:03:39,111
So you're the Kaddouches
who were deported?
1595
02:03:39,146 --> 02:03:42,241
Oh... and you were the oldest girl,
1596
02:03:42,276 --> 02:03:45,337
the one who had the luck to return?
1597
02:03:45,372 --> 02:03:48,105
- It's you!
- It's me.
1598
02:03:48,140 --> 02:03:51,792
I wouldn't have known.
Your parents didn't return?
1599
02:03:51,827 --> 02:03:54,914
- They didn't.
- How sad.
1600
02:03:54,949 --> 02:03:58,885
- I'll never forget that.
- Neither will I.
1601
02:03:58,920 --> 02:04:03,850
Of course not... I'll never forget it.
1602
02:04:04,427 --> 02:04:07,370
- The day I was arrested...
- Eh?
1603
02:04:07,405 --> 02:04:10,279
The day I was arrested, you were home.
1604
02:04:10,314 --> 02:04:13,557
- Mrs Bontout lived opposite.
- That's right.
1605
02:04:13,592 --> 02:04:16,800
She alone tried to get
me away from the SS.
1606
02:04:16,835 --> 02:04:20,694
Oh yes...
1607
02:04:20,729 --> 02:04:23,965
Mrs Serr�s stayed inside.
1608
02:04:24,000 --> 02:04:26,714
- [Int. ] The one we just met?
- Yes.
1609
02:04:26,749 --> 02:04:29,277
Mrs Bontout was over here.
1610
02:04:29,312 --> 02:04:35,086
She let my mother and father pass.
1611
02:04:35,121 --> 02:04:39,517
Then she tugged at my sleeve
to pull me into her place,
1612
02:04:39,552 --> 02:04:40,648
safe from the SS.
1613
02:04:40,683 --> 02:04:43,602
- [Int. ] Why didn't it work?
- Goitzman turned around.
1614
02:04:43,637 --> 02:04:47,696
He came back and forced
me down the stairs..
1615
02:04:47,731 --> 02:04:51,950
Mrs Bontout got slapped
so hard she had to give up.
1616
02:04:51,985 --> 02:04:53,757
[Int. ] And where was Mrs Serr�s?
1617
02:04:53,792 --> 02:04:56,367
She'd shut herself away.
1618
02:04:56,402 --> 02:04:59,385
I don't know what became of Mrs Bontout,
1619
02:04:59,420 --> 02:05:04,420
but I feel a fondness for her
I don't feel for anyone else.
1620
02:05:06,455 --> 02:05:09,710
- [Int. ] Did you see her again?
- No.
1621
02:05:13,583 --> 02:05:19,415
This motion picture is dedicated to
the late Mrs Bontout, a good neighbor.
1622
02:05:20,894 --> 02:05:23,035
[Choir sings German folk song]
139481
Can't find what you're looking for?
Get subtitles in any language from opensubtitles.com, and translate them here.